brought up the report of the Committee of Ways and Means on customs duties and income tax.

Report considered and adopted ; committee appointed to bring up the necessary Bill or Bills.

as chairman, brought up the second report of the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities. [Votes and Proceedings, pages 668-672.]

House to go into committee on the report tomorrow.

I rise once more to record by objection to this clause as amended, on the ground that it introduces into co-operation a compulsory feature which is an absolute negation of the principle of co-operation and overrides the Co-operative Act, which confines the business of co-operative companies to their members by providing here that nonmembers shall make use of the co-operative companies for the sale of their produce. This, as I say, is a negation of the principle of cooperation, and it is unfair to traders who have to compete for this trade and to pay their additional licences, income tax and other charges that the co-operative companies are freed from. This is done by the Land Bank, not for the protection of public funds, but they are asking for these special privileges under the pretence of popularizing the co-operative movement. It is done in the face of the strongest possible apposition on the part of the Agricultural Department, as officially stated, which is the department that has to do with the co-operative movement. For that reason I wish once again to record my protest against this clause.

Amendments put and agreed to.

On the third Schedule,

In regard to the regulation under No. 14, I would like to ask the Minister whether this does not follow an amendment in the body of the Bill itself. It is a consequential amendment.

We will consider it in another place, if it be necessary.

Amendment put and agreed to.

Remaining amendments put and agreed to, and the Bill as amended adopted and read a third time.

I would like to ask a question on this. Perhaps the Prime Minister would be good enough to tell us when he is going to lay his Native Affairs Bills on the table. The next question is on page 112 under Summaries—Griqua money £6,000. It is quite a considerable sum. Perhaps my hon. friend will give us some information about it. It is a new vote.

In the first place I see my hon. friend is very anxious to have the Native Bills before the House. I hope by the end of the month to lay them upon the Table of the House. I may say they are being translated and will be printed. As to this £6,000, this is in consequence of the agreement that was entered into with the Griquanation and Adam Kok. Shortly after, or while they were leaving the Free State for East Griqualand, it was agreed that Adam Kok was to draw a yearly subsistence of £200. and his people £100. and that was in consideration of certain rights which the Griquas had, or claimed to have in connection with land in the Orange Free State. Subsequently when Adam Kok died these sums of £200 and £100 ceased to be paid, and the reason given was that it was a personal allowance. The Griquas have all along maintained that it was not a personal allowance, but was in consequence of the real rights with which they parted, and that the income should go partly to the new chief and partly to the others. The Government of the day did not see their way to follow them. This question has eventually been brought to us. I have read the document and submitted it to the opinion of the law advisers, and they agree with me that this is more than a personal obligation. The Government has thought it right that this sum of £300 should be paid, but that it should not be paid to any successor, or quasi successor, of Adam Kok. The whole £300 should be put into a native fund, and this should yearly be drawn for the purpose of assisting the development of the Griquas. So practically this is the sum paid into that fund, and it will remain as the capital, the interest of which will be devoted to the Griqua people.

This is the lot?

Yes, it is the capital.

Will the Prime Minister make a statement in regard to his intentions in connection with the removal of the Makoba tribe from New Amalfi to the Umzimkulu district. The position as I understand it is that this tribe was settled on their present location not only because they rendered splendid services during the native wars, but also so that they could act as a buffer between the Basutos and the European settlers. At great personal risk they settled there, and now simply because they happen to be in the midst of the Europeans, and because their land is valuable they are required to give up their holding and move to another locality which is not nearly so good. True they are to get one and a half acres for each acre they now hold, but what is the value of holding more ground when the ground is practically valueless. We shall appreciate a statement by the Prime Minister, for the tribe is very unsettled, and even Europeans who wish to see justice done are disturbed.

Where is this?

Near Kokstad. They hold that this new ground is not suitable, and feel very strongly that they should be consulted. The natives are not opposed to any change provided they get land equally as good as that which they are required to vacate, and I think their point of view quite the correct one.

As far as that is concerned, the position I have taken up is that the amount has been given to a reserve of those natives, and those natives are not going to be deprived of that ground unless with their consent. Unless we can give them something that is satisfactory to them they are going to remain.

With regard to the item, Native Agricultural Demonstrators, £1,024, I do not know how the amount will be allocated, to me it seems a very small sum when you consider the five millions of natives and the large native areas in the Union. At the end of last session and since I have endeavoured to persuade the Minister to pay a visit to the district of Herschel. During the last 15 years I have noticed a great deterioration of the agricultural and pastoral conditions of the district. It has been overstocked, and the resources are rapidly diminishing, while the population is increasing. This cannot continue. It has been suggested that the native ploughs in a most slovenly way, but they have not the facilities for cultivating land that Europeans have, and are forced to use antiquated ramshackle ploughs and six or eight indifferent oxen, and the result is inevitable. It cannot be favourable. I consider it highly necessary that we should have demonstrators to assist these people, and educate them to better methods of cultivating their land. The resources are decreasing, the population is increasing, and the result must be an overflow somewhere. I do think that the very earliest opportunity should be taken by the Minister to visit the district and get a knowledge of the conditions there, with a view of trying to meet the future.

I should like to ask the Minister whether he can tell the House what is the line of administration the Government is taking with regard to trade union organizers amongst the natives—whether they will be allowed to go all over the Union like white organizers—I ask the question because one Kadalie has been banned from various portions of the Union. I do not say the Government is right or wrong, but I do not know the reason why, and therefore, I cannot give an opinion, but I would be glad it the Prime Minister could make a statement.

Perhaps I may answer this at once. With regard to the question of the hon. member for Aliwal (Mr. Sephton), I just want to point out that these are not new demonstrators. There are a number of demonstrators appointed and paid by the Bhunga who will also disappear from these estimates from next year because, under the Taxation Act that was passed last year, a sum of money will be paid into the Native Agricultural and Advancement Fund, and they will be paid from that fund in future, and, as my hon. friend will know, a portion of the income from certain taxes upon natives is to go into that fund for the purpose of assisting development in the native territories. So that you may say that this will be a matter the advancement of which will depend on the income that that fund is going to derive—an income that is not, I think, going to be inconsiderable, compared with what it is to-day. As to the position in regard to the Government’s line of administration—I think the hon. member for Bloemfontein (North) (Mr. Barlow) referred to trade unionists. At any rate, with respect to Kadalie and others, I may say that this Government has not in any way departed as far as its attitude towards these people is concerned from the attitude of the previous Government, except in this individual case of Kadalie, and I may say that the Government is determined, as far as he is concerned, to persist in that attitude. The position is simply this. As hon. members know, Kadalie should not have been in this country, and would not have been here if the Administration had acted as it should have acted a year or two ago. I do not want to go into details in the matter. He was, or is, here simply because of failure to have him put beyond the boundaries of the Union, or rather through failure to say to him that he could not stay within the Union. Kadalie has been a very active agitator, and, from the reports that I have, an agitator of no mean kind, with the result that, through his action and the action of one or two others there has been a scare for the last six or seven months throughout the Union, of a kind which makes it imperative that we should take every step to see that we are not landed in some kind of unpleasant fray one of these days. It was while this scare was at its height that Kadalie wanted to go down to Natal, and hold meetings there, and the inhabitants—to my mind quite properly—knowing what the situation is there, knowing how they are surrounded by the most backward native tribes in the Union—I think it is well known that your Zulu, for instance, to take one tribe in Natal, stands far behind any of the other tribes in any of the other provinces as far as advancement in the line of civilization is concerned. These people, knowing or feeling what was going to happen if he were to come down there, asked that the Natal law, which says that the Government can at any time prohibit a native from any other province coming into Natal, should be enforced, and we have had that enforced, with the result that Kadalie was not able to go down into Natal and make any further propaganda. We are prepared to let natives go from one province to another as freely as they like ; but we shall certainly not allow it when we find dangers ahead such as we saw we would run, if we allowed Kadalie to go down to Natal and Zululand and those places, and stir up feeling as he has done in other places.

What law are you acting under?

I was asked whether our Urban Areas Bill was getting on. I may say here that we are getting along as fast and as successfully with this Bill as can be expected under the circumstances. It is being adopted right and left by almost all the municipalities, as far as the building of locations is concerned, and the clearing of the native from the state of promiscuous living in among Europeans. In regard to that, which is a question only in the bigger centres, we are getting on very well indeed. Some municipalities had to be hurried up a bit, but for the last six months or more they have been coming up to the scratch very well. In Johannesburg, quite a number of quarters have been cleared already, and I believe at the present moment there are some four to six hundred new quarters erected for further clearing of the city of natives. That is to get them into their proper locations. If I were to give an account of the whole it would take far too long, but if hon. members, for instance, would like to have a report on the whole circumstances in regard to the Urban Areas Act, I shall be only too glad to lay one upon the Table of the House.

I shall be very glad if the Prime Minister could enlighten us how far the territories which have been reserved by the Beaumont and Stubbs Commissions as native territories will no longer be regarded as such. I am not so much concerned about the areas in which only natives live, but about areas which are more appropriate for habitation by white people. I should like the Prime Minister to explain what the native territories are. In the low veld there is already closer settlement of white people and it is impossible to think that that will be a native territory. The misfortune, however, is that the man who wants to develop the ground does not know whether it will be a native territory. When application is made for ground and ground is purchased the answer is that that cannot be done without the approval of the Native Affairs Department. Uncertainty, therefore, exists and also in Potgieter’s Rust not only as a result of the platinum discoveries, but as a result of the reports of the commissions, because areas inhabited by white people still fall within the area which is recommended as native territory. I want to ask the Prime Minister if it would not be better if those parts, which according to the report, are regarded as native areas, should fall back as areas to be inhabited by white people. Then there is another point that I want to bring to the notice of the Prime Minister, something of great importance to the northern parts of the Transvaal, that is the control which now exists in connection with dipping tanks in areas which are native territories under the Department of Native Affairs. We have had cases of East Coast fever and it is because the cattle of the natives are under the supervision of inspectors appointed by the Native Affairs Department. We feel that all the inspectors ought to be under the Department of Agriculture and that the inspectors of the latter department should supervise the dipping tanks and alone have a say. It is said that the officials of the Department of Native Affairs are not as competent as the officials of the Agricultural Department.

I should like to ask the Prime Minister a question about the item: Commutation of annual payments under the Griqua Treaty. I want to ask the Prime Minister whether his department has already come to a decision with reference to the disposal of the capital amount.

There is £6,000 on the Estimates for that purpose.

There are a number of direct descendants from the Griqua captain, Waterboer, of whom there is one who signed himself Nicholas Waterboer, who is in particularly distressing circumstances. The fact that the payment has stopped since the death of the first Waterboer is regarded as a great injustice, as has been remarked by the Prime Minister in his statement to the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger). I should like to know in what way the amount is being employed in Griqualand. The people are often in distressing circumstances.

As for the last point, I am not going to give it to the captains or would-be captains. It only leads to trouble. It is simply transferred to the Development Fund, which exists under the authority which to-day supervizes it, viz:, the department, and it will be used for the improvement of the ground of the Griquas in Griqualand, but I am not going to pay it for personal objects. I may just add here that the chiefs of the Griquas are acting in such a way that more and more of the country of the Griquas is becoming lost to them, and to-day they only possess about ten farms out of all the ground. That is just the result of the way in which the captains, sub-captains and quasi-captains went to work. As regards dipping tanks, about which the hon. member for Pietersburg (Mr. J. F. Tom Naudé) asked me a question, I must of course go into the matter to find out if there are any grounds for the complaints, and if it is actually necessary to supervize them. Then the Department of Agriculture will certainly have no objection to doing so, but so far I have not known of any complaint. With regard to the matter of native territories, this is not a suitable opportunity to discuss them. We are engaged on comprehensive legislation in this connection, and it would be better to say nothing about the matter now.

I would like the Minister to enlighten us as to the policy of the extension of irrigation to the native areas. The natives are now paying more taxation, and they are entitled to more consideration in this direction. Last season the Natal native areas were practically without rain. It is 30 years since conditions were so bad as they are to-day. The irrigated land on the Tugela, where the natives go in for intensive culture, are a credit to the Administration. During the coming season large native areas in Natal will be absolutely without grain, and I foresee trouble if the natives are not fed. They are entitled to have larger areas under irrigation. Natal lends itself to irrigation, for it has large rivers and exceptionally rich soil.

The Department will be only too glad to extend irrigation as much as possible in any of the native territories. The Department and I are fully convinced that it is absolutely necessary that natives should adopt better methods of agriculture, but we have to consider the question of funds. That is one reason why the native development fund was created.

I understand that five farms riparian to the Umlaas River, which is the source of the water supply of Durban, are being bought from the Natal Land and Colonization Company by the Native Affairs Department, on which to locate natives displaced from a native area. The establishment of a congested native settlement upon the catchment area of the Durban water supply is bound to expose the water supply to a serious risk of pollution, and I hope the Prime Minister will state what the position is.

Last session about 300 morgen of ground on the south coast of Natal were bought by the Government from the natives for some £30,000. We cannot take ground belonging to the natives and not give them land elsewhere. Hence this purchase was made in the Umlaas River Valley—that is the ground now referred to by the hon. member for Illovo (Mr. Marwick)—in order that those natives removed from Amanzimtoti should be settled there. Unfortunately, it has been brought to my notice that, according to the opinion of some people, these natives are so situated that they may defile the head waters that have to be used by the people of Durban. I have referred this to the native commissioner, and the native commissioner has sent me a reply, in which it says—

He does not think that there are any real reasons for not buying that ground and giving it to the natives. That is the position where I now stand, as far as the information is concerned which I have asked for from Natal.

There is a matter to which I wish to call the attention of the Minister of Native Affairs and it is one which I have brought up in this House on several occasions, that is the absolute necessity of legislative control both of recruiting of labour in the native territories, and proper control of that labour when it reaches the plantation areas in Natal. In spite of the remark of the hon. member for Natal Coast (Brig.-Gen. Arnott), when I brought this matter before this House on a previous occasion, that I was “talking utter rot,” I have to bring to the House to-day facts which I am sure will convince members of the necessity of something being done in this matter. These complaints have been going on for some years. They are largely concerned with the climatic conditions, in fact they became so bad two years ago that the district council of natives at Umtata decided, with the sanction of the chief magistrate, to send a delegation to enquire into the conditions prevailing on the Natal and Zululand coast. This was very finely stage-managed, by whom I do not know. I have never seen a delegation more misled—and I say this deliberately—than this native delegation was. We all know that the south coast is a perfect health resort in so far as the climatic conditions are concerned, but it is to the north of Durban and Zululand where the conditions are bad. The delegation was taken to various places, but the portion where the conditions are really bad was unexplored by this delegation. They were only taken as far north as La Mercy estate. Certain allegations of ill-treatment are also made. I think that plantation labour, recruited labour, is always more subject, possibly, to that sort of thing than labour that lives on a farm. I do not intend to go into that aspect of the matter, but I would draw attention to a circular issued by the Zululand Planters’ Union in which they record their disapproval of employers of native labour using methods of coercion or punishment other than those recognized by law, and also lay stress on the necessity for the prompt and regular payment of wages. A circular like that is not issued unless there are some grounds for issuing it. The principal trouble, however, lies in the climatic conditions. Let there be no doubt about the conditions that obtain in Zululand as far as labour is concerned. I have a report of the debate which took place in this House on the Zululand Railway Construction Bill two years ago, when my hon. friend the member for Port Elizabeth (Central) (Col. D. Reitz) said, inter alia—

The hon. member also said—

The hon. member for Illovo (Mr. Marwick) made this remark—

I have here the report which was issued in 1925 by Mr. C. A. Wheelwright, the Native Commissioner of Natal, and Mr. Park Ross, the Assistant Native Health Officer for the Union. Speaking of plantation labour, they say—

The commission states that it would be well if such labour could be obtained from malarial districts of the Union or elsewhere, and that without most meticulous care such labour cannot hope to escape the disease. There is only one other document that I want to quote from. Every year the magistrates of the territories meet at Umtata in what they call a magisterial conference to discuss various matters affecting the administration of the territories. At the last conference one of the magistrates, Mr. Mitchell, introduced a resolution to the effect that the recruitment of natives to work on the sugar estates of Natal should be controlled, as in the ease of mines and works. He also remarked that the most important consideration of the moment was the betterment of the conditions on the sugar estates themselves. The magistrate who introduced the matter said that lots of complaints had reached his office, and not less than 100 warrants for deserting boys had been received. Another magistrate spoke of the number of boys returning from Natal with their health seriously impaired. Colonel Muller, now Secretary for Labour, said that the motion only touched the fringe of the subject, and that the position was scandalous. He also observed that some steps must be taken to control the recruiting and the conditions of plantation labour. [Time limit.]

I wish to refer to the answer given by the Minister of Native. Affairs to the hon. member for Illovo (Mr. Marwick) about the transfer of natives to the banks of the Umlaas River. As an inhabitant of Durban, I was very disturbed at the answer of the Minister, because I think he does not realize the seriousness of the position as far as our water supply in Durban is concerned. Surely there could not have been a stronger objection made to such a transfer than the possibility of polluting the water supply of a large town like Durban. If these natives are to be put on the banks of this river I do not see how the Minister’s department could possibly prevent the water being polluted to some extent. I would point out to mm that Durban has been spending hundreds of thousands of pounds upon the perfecting of its water supply from that river, and if all that is to be spoilt by the possibility of a native tribe being put on the banks of the river he will see how serious the position is. I hope the Minister will go into the matter himself and make sure that there is no danger of this taking place, and if there is, that it shall not take place.

Of course I am always prepared to hear any representations and as far as I am concerned I shall only be too glad to meet them, but in this case let me just remind my hon. friend that up to the present time the municipality has not made any representation. Judging from the report that I have got, it is really more a matter of the fears entertained by a few individuals in the neighbourhood where the natives are going to be stationed. This is all I know, and all I have done is to lay before the House the answer I have got to the reference I made in regard to this matter. If your municipality could make out a good case, then as far as possible I should certainly come to their assistance.

It is not too late, is it?

No, as far as I know the natives are not shifted yet. The ground has been bought but the natives are not there. I am informed that the municipality itself offered us a farm there.

But they withdrew that offer just on account of the risk I have pointed out.

That may be so. At any rate, the whole question is surely a question for consideration by the municipality in the first place, and in the second place for representations to the department.

I would like the Minister to go again into the matter referred to by the hon. member for Bloemfontein (North) (Mr. Barlow)—That of Kadalie. My object is to point out that a most important principle is involved here. No charge has been made against this man. If he has been breaking the law he should be prosecuted. The Minister said that he would restrict him from entering into Natal by a Natal law. Is he not referring rather to the Immigrants Regulation Act of 1913? If there is a special law of Natal dealing with it, it would be as well to know it. As far as I know this man has been going round the Union forming branches of the Industrial and Commercial Union as a trade union of the natives. I take it that the natives are just as entitled to form trade unions as the European workers. I thought the great argument was that the native allowed himself to be exploited. Surely then we should encourage him to join trade unions. At any rate, it is no crime to form a trade union. It is contended on behalf of Kadalie that his speeches have been mixed up with the speeches of other men who do not belong to the organization.

No.

I say it is contended that his speeches have been mixed up with those of others. If they have not been, why has this man not been prosecuted for a breach of the law? Surely the proper way is to prosecute and punish him for any wrong-doing that he may be guilty of, and not prevent him by administrative machinery from forming branches of a trade union. The Minister referred to the action of the previous Government. It is begging the question to say the man should not be in South Africa. If the previous Government did not take the opportunity, the law afforded them of keeping him out of South Africa that may or may not be their fault, but to-day he has the right of domiciled South African. I do say a very dangerous principle, is involved here; and if members who represent labour constituencies are going to allow a native engaged in trade union work to be administratively prevented from entering various parts of the Union, then they are breaking up everything they have told us they held sacred in the past. I do not wish to defend any man who has been doing anything criminally wrong. If he has been doing wrong let him be prosecuted, but if not, to use the administrative machinery of the law to prevent him from entering any part of the Union is simply to give the native the idea that as long as you are a white trade unionist you can address as many meetings as you like and deliver what speeches you like, and nothing will be said ; but if you are a black man the law is going to be pretty sharp upon you. For these reasons I hope the Minister will go into the matter again. Has he read Kadalie’s speeches to see if they are of the character attributed to them? There was a case reported to-day where a man belonging to the same organization was acquitted at Bloemfontein by the judge, in regard to certain words alleged to have been uttered by him. To condemn a man unheard, not to give him a trial and then to exclude him from organizing trades unions, is taking a step which might be fraught with dangerous consequences to other sections of the population.

Arising out of the Minister’s reply to the hon. member for Illovo (Mr. Marwick) when I understood him to say that the purchase of this 10,000 acres of land was merely an adjustment to replace land taken from the natives on the Natal coast by way of exchange, a matter which came up last session under the Native Release Act, and was sanctioned by this House. On that occasion I registered a protest against the department extending the native areas of Natal, in which 25 per cent, of the land has already been set aside for the natives. The Minister will remember the result of the visit of the Native Affairs Commission to Natal, when the people of Natal protested against any further land being set aside for native purposes. The transaction which was sanctioned by this House last session was an exchange of approximately 4,000 acres given by the natives for 20,000 acres, together with the sum of £30,000 in cash given by the Government. It is difficult to understand how the subsequent purchase of this 10,000 acres is with the object of replacing land taken from the natives when they were given 20,000 acres in exchange for these 4,000 acres on the Natal coast. My point last session was that as the result of this exchange the Government had added 16,000 acres to the native areas in the face of the protest made by the people of Natal to the Native Affairs Commission. I protested against that. If this present transaction is to go through it means that the native areas in Natal are being further augmented to the extent of 10,000 acres, making 26,000 acres in all. As I said last session I came with a mandate from my constituency to oppose any additional areas over and above those scheduled in the Natives Lands Act of 1913. European farmers resent very much having these native areas contiguous to their own holdings, as it depreciates the value of their land. Notwithstanding the protest registered by me last year, the Government are pursuing the policy of adding to the native areas. There is plenty of land already in Natal set apart for natives, and it is certainly not necessary to add to these areas. If it is not too late, I ask the Government to reconsider the matter in order that this transaction may not go through. If the Governor-General’s consent has not yet been obtained it is not too late.

I hope that the Prime Minister will elucidate the reply he has already given with regard to the administrative action he has taken with regard to Mr. Kadalie. The effect of that reply was that Kadalie was not merely to be prevented from going to Natal, but if he left Johannesburg for the Cape he would be prevented from going back to Johannesburg. That could not have taken place under any Natal Act, and probably could only have been done under the Immigration Act. Is that being done as the result of any political speeches that have been made by Kadalie, or as the result of his policy of organizing the natives into trade unions, and urging them to work for higher wages? I can understand the scare that would take place in the sugar mills of Natal when the natives, instead of the miserable wages they are getting, asked for 3s. or more a day. It would be a good thing for the white people; for the more the natives’ wages, the better it will be for the white workers. I notice that the friends of the right hon. the member for Standerton (Gen. Smuts) are very quiet on this question of native organization to get better wages. I happened to read one of Kadalie’s speeches about six weeks ago, reported in the “Times of Natal” and addressed to a meeting of natives in Pietermaritzburg; and I must say that I have never read better trade union propaganda for many a year. It is the propaganda preached by every trade union organizer in South Africa and England for a number of years. It is preposterous to take up the attitude while, on the one hand, industrializing the native to prevent him from organizing for self-protection.

Are you voting for the colour bar?

I have no doubt that my hon. friend, who is a great opponent of the colour bar, and likes cheap labour, has a different opinion from me on this point. Has Kadalie been preaching sedition, and if so, what has that been? Maj. Trigger in his evidence before the select committee said he attached no importance to Kadalie.

Why my hon. friend here should have any doubt as to how the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Kentridge) is going to vote on the colour bar Bill, I cannot understand. The hon. member for Troyeville has been pleading for trade union organization and industrialization, and how he can vote for the colour bar Bill!—he is sure not to vote for it. I rise for the purpose of referring to what has been said by the hon. member for Umvoti (Mr. Deane), who has referred to the impoverished condition of the natives in certain portions of Natal. I would like to draw attention to the impoverished condition of the natives in the Eastern Province of the Cape, and ask the Minister if he would inform the committee how the new native taxation—the poll tax—that was introduced last year, is being collected, and whether a large number of natives in the Eastern Province find great difficulty in paying that tax. Is it or is it not a fact, as has been represented by farmers, that if they want to secure their native labour, they themselves are obliged to find the tax, because the natives are not able to do so? The grants for the relief of distress are reduced from £950 to £250. There is likely to be considerable distress, owing to the failure of the mealie crop, and the impoverishment of the condition of the natives.

We from Natal are very pleased to hear the common-sense pronouncement by the Prime Minister with regard to Kadalie after the mealic-mouthed stuff that comes from the hon. member for Cape Town (Hanover Street) (Mr. Alexander), of which I hope the Prime Minister will not take notice. The hon. member does not know what he is talking about, and his purview is restricted to Hanover Street and its surroundings. In Natal we have had numerous cases of poisoning, and unfortunately one family was wiped out.

How long ago was that?

Within the last two years; and the natives guilty of this are only waiting for the stuff that proceeds from the hon. member for Cape Town (Hanover Street) to encourage them in this. Our natives must be governed by justice and with firmness, and according to the standard which for generations they thoroughly understood.

With all due respect to the hon. member who has just spoken, what we have just heard from him may be all very well for a smoking concert, but you cannot deal with Mr. Kadalie and the native question with a few remarks of the “Comic Cuts” variety. The hon. member for Cape Town (Hanover Street) (Mr. Alexander) certainly knows something more than about Hanover Street and District Six—he knows what affects the conditions of the people in this country, and he always stands for humanity.

The colour bar Bill.

I am glad the hon. member said the “colour bar Bill,” and I will only say that those who are so much against the natives becoming organized are also voting against that Bill. When you suggest that the natives should be organized, and should ask for higher wages, the friendship of these hon. members for the natives vanishes. You love the native because he is unorganized, and because he works cheaply. It is a wrong thing to do what has been done in the case of Mr. Kadalie. I would not condone what Mr. Kadalie or any other organizers did in preaching sedition, or advocating violence, but here you are dealing with a trade union movement, and we do not want this movement to go through the experience it went through in other countries. But Mr. Kadalie is to be taken as a native trade union organizer, and if he kicks over the traces and says things which are contrary to law, then, as the hon. member for Cape Town (Hanover Street) says, you must proceed against him under the law ; but it is a different thing to interfere with him because he is organizing the natives on trade union lines. I want to ask the Prime Minister not to be led away on this sort of question by your Maj. Triggers. The evidence given on this Bill before the select committee by such gentlemen goes to show mat they regard Kadalie as a clever man who is organizing the natives industrially, but that does not prove that Mr. Kadalie is the menace to society that some hon. members think he is.

He is a comrade of yours!

You have the Auditor-General drawing attention to the non economic nature of certain white labour, and he says that where you employ Europeans where you could have employed natives, it is non economic and un-businesslike. That is to say, the whole basis of society, so far as the working class is concerned, must be the cheapest procurable native labour. I want to see the natives organized industrially and politically in the same way as the white folk, as that is the only way in which the organized white workers can maintain their position. I do not wish to see the Prime Minister interfere with genuine organizing work. The hon. member for Griqualand (Mr. Gilson) quoted from a report of the sugar industry, which showed how disgracefully the natives were treated, and perhaps that was why Kadalie wanted to go down to that part of the country. If the natives there were organized industrially, they would demand better conditions of labour. If Kadalie departs from trade union principles, I should condemn him as soon as any man; but if his sole idea is to lift the natives up in society, I want to see the Government encourage that policy. If the Prime Minister does anything to interfere with the industrial organization of the natives or the coloured man or the white man, he will drive the movements underground, and it will be bad for South Africa.

I wish to express a certain amount of disappointment at the vote for nine agricultural demonstrators and the sum of just over £1,000. I feel it is a question in regard to which the Minister should take immediate action. We all know that in the native areas the position is critical and serious, and that the land of these natives in these areas is steadily deteriorating in production, and that the natives themselves are steadily going down into abject poverty. They are living on the border line of starvation, and it is a matter which requires immediate attention. I should like to see some organizing carried out on a fairly large scale, say a large department of the Agricultural Department devoting its attention to the cultivation of the land in the native areas. What can nine native demonstrators do? Surely they require a European at the head of them to direct their efforts. Have these demonstrators been specially trained for this purpose, and what are their qualifications? I feel this ought really to have the attention of our Minister, because, after all, the native question is a very serious one, and the condition of the natives is such as to demand his special attention. If he wishes to see a contented native race on the land, he should strain every effort to give them the opportunity to learn how to cultivate their land, and so to get crops that will at any rate keep them and afford them some decency of life. I hope the Minister will turn his special attention to this evil, and see that something is done very soon. It would make a lot of difference to the natives if they saw that the Government recognized the position and were taking special action.

Further to the question put to the Prime Minister by the hon. member for Illovo (Mr. Marwick), I feel quite certain I am voicing the opinion of my colleagues and myself when I say that we appreciate the reasonable manner in which the Prime Minister has met this question, but I want to go further and ask the Prime Minister if he will be agreeable to postpone any further negotiations, or, let me say, to start the placing of natives on that area until a full investigation has been made. I believe, under the Land Act of 1913, before this grant of land can be conferred, it has to go before the Governor-General-in-Council for sanction. If that has not been done, the Prime Minister might delay any further development in this direction. The Prime Minister referred to the fact that the Durban municipality had made an offer of land in that area which was, I presume, the farm called “Clifton,” but the municipality made that offer on one condition, namely, that a certain area on the banks of the river was reserved and fenced off so that the natives would not have the opportunity of making use of the land right down to the banks of the river. That was in order to save any possibility of pollution so far as the catchment area was concerned, but with the present sale of land, if I might so put it, the area which the natives are to be permitted to utilize goes right down to the river itself. That is one of the main objections we have to the granting of that land. I do not think it is necessary again to point out to the Prime Minister that there ;is very great difficulty in tracing the causes of typhoid and kindred diseases, and the municipality for the last three or four years have found it necessary in the Umzindusi catchment area to try and co-operate with the native area and to get the Native Department to co-operate with them in order to move that concourse of natives from the catchment area for that very reason. They feel that the catchment area is unwittingly being polluted through the occupation of that land, and we in Durban are trying to get the Government to avoid the same possibility occurring in our area. The municipality has spent a million pounds on the development of the scheme, which is to hold good for 25 years. I do not think it is unreasonable to ask the Prime Minister to withhold any further settlement of the natives until a further full investigation has been made and the opportunity has been given for presenting full representation to the Prime Minister before it goes before the Governor-General-in-Council for final confirmation.

I should be only too glad, if it can be pointed out that it will have the effect on the water which the inhabitants of Durban are developing eventually. I think it would be unwise to take any further steps; but I do hope my friends in Natal will assist me in getting what I think is only fair, namely, the necessary ground for these natives. Otherwise, I do not think the Natal members would last year have granted the right to dispose of the natives’ grounds unless they looked upon it as a necessity that the Government should restore to the natives the ground they have taken away. In regard to the remarks of the hon. member for Klip River (Mr. Anderson) he came to see me about that question, and I gave him whatever information I had on that point, but as far as I can still recollect, it was that, after all, the 20,000 that was given to the natives was within the demarcated native area. There again I quite agree that once we have decided upon giving to the native within certain areas certain ground, we should not go outside that and give more outside. That would be contrary to what the law of 1913 contemplated. In regard to the hon. member for Queenstown’s (Mr. Moffat) remarks about demonstrators, a good many young natives are being trained and trained very well in the native territory, for the purpose of acting as teachers on their own behalf, or otherwise in the employ as demonstrators, but he must not make the mistake of thinking that these nine are the only demonstrators. These are the ones paid for by the Government. The bunga is also paying for quite a number. These also in future will be paid for out of monies to come in to the development fund, and the monies which are going into that fund will be at the disposal of the authorities. There is a European supervisor in charge who will be paid for out of the Union vote. He is there to-day. With regard to Kadalie, I was asked whether I resorted the Immigration Act or a special Natal Act. I resorted to a special Natal Act affecting Natal, and I think quite rightly. We must not forget that Natal is in a position different to any of the other provinces, and that, while we are quite prepared to run risks in other provinces, we may not run the same risks in Natal. May I point out that the whole question has nothing to do with trade unions. The natives can have as many trade unions as they like. This is really a measure for safety, and I would not have done my duty if I had not stopped him from going down to Natal. The right hon. member for Port Beaufort (Sir Thomas Smartt) has put me several questions. Up to this moment I did not know of the position threatening to be bad ; I won’t say very serious, but bad. The Chief Native Commissioner (Mr. Norton) just arrived to-day, and I am told that he has told the Chief of the Department that things are not as good ; in fact, things are likely to be bad. I am glad the hon. member drew my attention to it. At the same time, as far as the funds provided for here are concerned, I may say that the Treasury has never stinted on any occasion the necessary monies for coming to the assistance in such case. As far as the taxes are concerned, they will only be due in the locations on July 1. I believe that we shall find that a great many natives will not be able to pay. Very well, we shall simply have to go without. The law does not tell us that we must suck blood out of a stone.

Section 5 of the Native Urban Areas Act states that Government may compel all natives living in the limits of any urban area, or any specified portion thereof, other than those exempted, to reside in a location, native village or hostel. Obviously, natives should not be required to live in a location, native village or hostel until there is room in these places for them. But a proclamation was issued bringing Johannesburg under the Act at a time when there was no room in the location for possibly one-twentieth or one-fiftieth of the native population. Technically, every native in the urban area of Johannesburg is, to-day, committing an offence, because he is disobeying the order to live in the native location. The authorities are trying to effect the removals sectionally. For instance, the natives living in Doornfontein are told to remove to the location, but the natives see their friends next door at Braamfontein are left unmolested, and this leads to a sense of injustice on the part of the natives. The Doornfontein natives, however, do not go to a location, but try to find quarters elsewhere in the municipal area. About three months ago a native was prosecuted in Johannesburg. He was one of some hundreds who had been ordered to leave Doornfontein, but instead of going to a location he proceeded to the New Clare Township, which is inhabited almost entirely by natives, who were rounded up and prosecuted. The native to whom I referred was charged with disobeying this particular section. The magistrate, however, held that this part of the Natives Urban Area Act was entirely valueless insofar as its penal provisions applying to the natives are concerned. The magistrate stated that a native who disobeyed an order of this sort could not be punished, and that the only way to enforce the order was to make use of sub-section (3) of section 5, which makes it an offence to harbour a native who has been told to live in a location. I should have thought if the Native Affairs Department did not agree with that judgment it would have appealed, but I am told that legal advice was taken and the magistrate’s judgment was accepted as being correct. If that is so, what is the position? There are tens of thousands of natives at Johannesburg who have been told to live in locations. Everyone of them can set the order at defiance, and the only means of redress the department has is to prosecute persons harbouring natives. In order to obtain a conviction against a harbourer it would have to be shown that the defendant knew that the native was one to whom the order applied. I was consulted professionally on the matter, and my view was that practically the utility of this portion of the Act had been wrecked by the magistrate's judgment. I think the magistrate’s view is correct.

Of course, the only alternative in a place like Johannesburg would be to leave the municipality to complete the location whenever it liked. But unfortunately, we have to declare that a municipality falls under the Act in order to compel the municipality to build a location ; otherwise the whole of the Act would be frustrated. We are getting the municipalities to act, and they are acting fairly fast. Although Johannesburg was slow to move, when once we got it to make a start it moved very reasonably and satisfactorily. The department insists on the cleaning up of Johannesburg going on at a certain rate. For that purpose the municipality can take only a certain section, as it would cost millions to erect locations to provide for all the natives in Johannesburg. All that we can do under the circumstances is to make the best of a bad job, and I think Johannesburg is making the best of it in conjunction with the Government. As regards the magistrate’s judgment, it was referred to the Attorney-General, who held that the judgment was wrong. Another case will be brought, and if the magistrate decides again in the same way the case will be taken to appeal.

Why didn’t you take the original judgment to appeal?

There must have been some oversight. Reading section 25 of the Act, I am inclined to hold that on the face of it the magistrate was wrong, but I am not prepared to give an opinion in a hurry. Of course, if the magistrate’s opinion is right all we can do in the meanwhile is to make the best of a bad thing, and see that the Act be amended as soon as possible.

I wish to raise a matter which is of considerable importance to stock farmers in Natal, and that is in regard to the removal of stock thieves from the area where a theft has been committed to an area where no stock farming is carried on. Under section 37 of the Natal code, power is given to the Governor-General-in-Council, after consultation with the Natal Native Trust, to shift any native from one area to another in Natal where it is deemed expedient in the general public good to do so. Ever since the Natal code was passed successive governments have exercised that power to shift native stock thieves where application has been made upon petition by tile farmers in the district where the native resided, and where the stock theft was committed. Each case has been considered on its merits. I understand that the Minister of Native Affairs has now laid down as a matter of policy that this power will not be exercised unless there has been a second conviction. The reason, I understand, given for this is that, under the Stock Theft Act passed in 1922 or 1923, no provision is made for the removal of any native and that, ill exercising this power, the department would really be penalizing a mail twice. I submit that it takes years to catch a stock thief ; in fact, in some cases you never do catch them. It is a most difficult thing, I submit, to convict a stock thief twice. The natives realize the seriousness of the offence. When a native takes the risk of committing a theft he realizes that he is liable to a very heavy penalty. I submit that there is no better penalty and no better deterrent against the native stock thief than the fact that he knows that there is the possibility and probability of his being removed from his tribe and from his chief and placed with another tribe and subject to another chief. I submit further that usually when a native commits a theft he contaminates the other natives in the area in which he lives. Only recently I received a telegram from the chairman of the Newcastle Farmers’ Union, reading as follows—

There have lately been a series of convictions for stock thefts in Newcastle and on petition by the farmers in that area they have been informed that the department have decided not to exercise the powers under section 37 of the Natal code unless and until there has been a second conviction. According to the last census, the total number of sheep and goats in Natal was 2,697,000 and, in that year, 1923. the total number of sheep and goats stolen and missing was 154,000. In my own constituency (Utrecht) there were 221,000 sheep and goats, and in 1923 the total number stolen and missing was 6,025. In the Newcastle district there were 153,000 sheep and goats, and the total number stolen and missing in 1923 was 2,760. The only effective way, in my opinion, of dealing with stock thefts is to apply this very good section of the Natal code in every case where there has been a conviction, and where the police, supported by the magistrate, give a report that they are satisfied that the native concerned is an undesirable, and that for the public good he should be shifted to another area. I hope the Minister will seriously consider this matter from the farmers’ point of view, and give a clear reply as to what exactly is the policy of his department.

I have laid down that rule for the department in regard to the removal of natives for stock theft. I did it, not because I would not like very much to protect the farmers against these thieves, because I know how difficult it is to catch them and I think the hon. member rather understated when he said that some of them are never caught. To my mind 90 per cent, of them are never caught, but unfortunately when the Stock Theft Act was passed in 1923 the question arose and when it was proposed that not a similar but a much milder provision should be introduced for the Native Territories in the Cape, Parliament would not hear of it. What I felt was that you must take into consideration, in the first place, what the feeling of Parliament is as representing, as it were, the whole people on a matter like this and then try to go so far as to give an assurance that, at any rate, when the same crime is committed a second time this additional punishment should be inflicted. I am prepared to assume, subject to the hon. member (Mr. Nell convincing me of it, that the position in Natal is so different from the rest of the Union that it is really necessary that this additional punishment should be given on a first conviction and I am quite prepared, if that can he shown to me, to go back upon the line I have laid down for the department and say that we should follow and give effect to the Natal law in full. The course is for the magistrate to recommend and there is, of course, the guarantee that your magistrate would not recommend this additional punishment unless he felt sure that there is a reasonable necessity for it. Since the matter was raised I have been thinking it over and if the line I have adopted is not proving effective, I am prepared to adopt the other and accept the recommendation of the magistrate after a first conviction.

I am very glad to hear the promise made by the Minister to look into this matter again, because I can assure him that the farmers in the northern parts of Natal, who have been suffering heavy losses from stock thefts recently, are perturbed at the decision which has been come to. When the code was enacted the native chiefs were consulted about this particular clause, and they agreed that it was a clause which would enable them to govern their tribes with greater ease, and give them more control over their own people. Up to that date there were heavy losses sustained by sheep farmers in the Newcastle and Dundee district, to such an extent that many men are going out of sheep farming altogether, but this clause had very good effects indeed. The action of the Government was taken in this way, that a native was taken from the district where he had been stealing sheep and placed in a district where there were no sheep, somewhere on the coast, and that was looked upon by him, no doubt, as a very severe punishment, but as a very great deterrent to other evildoers. I put this point to the Minister, that it is very difficult, first of all, to obtain a conviction for stock thefts, and a sheep thief may go for months or years without detection, but when he is detected, and convicted and punished, surely it is no greater hardship for him to be sent out of his own district into another part of Natal, than it is for a man who is convicted of some crime or offence for which he may be deported. I think the two cases are very analogous, and owing to the heavy losses which have been sustained in Natal, I am very glad indeed that the Minister is going to reconsider his decision in this matter.

I wish to deal with a matter not yet touched upon, and that is the system of government in the Transkeian territories. As the Minister knows, we govern there by proclamation. In the old Cape days an Act of Parliament did not ipso facto apply to the Transkei ; it had to be specially applied and could be amended. Ever since Union, every Act passed in this House applies ipso facto to the territories. We have the anomalous position there that Acts passed in this House came into force and we are also subject to control by proclamation and a difficult position has arisen. We now have a further addition in the issue of regulations by different Ministers. It is difficult enough to keep in touch with proclamations, but when we have regulations framed by various Ministers, the position becomes almost impossible. Recently the Minister of Labour issued a proclamation under the Conciliation Act in regard to one of the industrial institutions, laying down an order that in the Transkei the same wages would be paid for Europeans, coloured men and natives. In Umtata and two or three other places where we have a printing business, we have to pay the same wages to natives as we have to pay to Europeans. I do not think that is the policy of the Minister. I do suggest that before any? of these regulations made by Ministers of other departments are imposed in the territory, they should go through the ordinary course and be proclaimed by the Minister of Native Affairs. The Department of Native Affairs will then be able to keep in touch with the different matters legislated upon in the territories, and pursue a common policy. Then we shall know exactly where we are. I would like to hear from the Minister, if he does not intend to accept that suggestion, how he proposes to deal with the matter. I trust he will explain exactly what attitude he intends taking up to meet the difficulties which have arisen there. A further point I wish to deal with is the question of the divorce courts in the territories. Ever since 1879 we have had divorce courts, specially proclaimed under proclamation, dealing with native cases. We all know that the native cannot afford to go to Grahamstown, which is the nearest high court, but for some reason last year the old proclamation was de-proclaimed and the natives had to go to the higher courts to get their divorces. Last year the Minister said he was introducing an Act this session which would meet the difficulty. Such an Act has not come into force, and in the meantime dozens and dozens of natives want to get these divorces. In view of the numbers of divorce cases that are accumulating up there, the Minister might consider the advisability of reverting to the old procedure until this new Bill of his comes into force. I would further like to know from the Minister what he intends doing to aid the industrial development of the natives. I see that on the Estimates a sum of £200 is devoted to the industrial development of the natives in the territories. I would like the Minister to explain how that amount is utilized. A further point is in connection with the land that was recently purchased at Glen Grey. Natives from that area, I presume, will be drawn from the congested locations and placed upon that land. My personal view is that they are not rich enough to pay the heavy interest and redemption charges that will be involved. The native, as we know, lives under a communal system, and he understands that particular method of owning ground, and I think in developing that piece of country, and settling natives upon it, the system which prevails in other parts of the country should be allowed to continue there, that is, that out and out titles should not be given to each particular native occupying land in that particular area. I suggest that a system be introduced to make the whole of that area pay for that particular land. After all is said and done, if natives congested in a location are placed on other land, it assists those who are in the congested area. I would like to ask the Minister exactly how he intends to deal with that particular aspect. The last matter is that of Kadalie, which is one which interests us in the territories, because I see a resolution has been passed in the Native Council and numerous resolutions passed at native meetings protesting against the action taken against him. The Government should explain to the natives what the reason was for preventing Kadalie from visiting Natal. We have to face this particular factor—that we must not make the natives think that we are afraid of any of their organizers or agitators. We must allow the natives clearly to understand that we are not afraid of Kadalie as a trade unionist and an organizer of his people. But if the Prime Minister has evidence that Kadalie is causing unrest, he should make that clear. [Time limit.]

There seems to be a good deal of consensus of opinion among hon. members who know the conditions of the natives that their economic conditions are getting worse. I read a report of Prof. Macmillan in which he points out that the condition of 40,000 natives in the Herschel district is undoubtedly worse economically than some years ago, and that they are not producing enough to keep themselves. I wish to suggest to the Prime Minister that he might have an economic survey made of the native territories, which would be extremely interesting and would be a guide, and it might also enquire into the cause of their going backward. I see in this report of the Native Affairs Commission that they urge upon the Government the institution of native councils with as little delay as possible; in the first place, because the native members of the annual conferences are partly elected from these native councils. Under the Act of 1920 the Governor-General may establish local native councils, and so far as I can make out, not many of these have been created, especially outside the native territories. The necessity for these native councils becomes greater after the Native Taxation Bill became law, and that has become law.

In answer to the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger), I may say that, as far as these native councils are concerned, they have never been kept back by this Government. We have been trying to get them going on as fast as possible ; but on the recommendation of the Native Affairs Commission, it was not found expedient to get them their councils before certain powers had been taken which were taken in the Native Act of last year, or in other words, a certain amendment had been brought into the 1920 Act. Since that time they are going on and forming these councils. I have on the order list a small Bill asking for an amendment of the 1920 Act. We are acting in conjunction with the Native Affairs Commission in order to allow the natives to get these councils. As far as the economic position of the natives in Glen Grey is concerned, it has been well known for several years that the Glen Grey natives are getting into a state of congestion in that district. That is why last year £50,000 was voted for the purchase of certain farms, and this year another £50,000 will be voted for the further purchase of farms there. Anybody who goes through the territories will find, and it is the common opinion of those in authority there, that your native does not, in the first place, work the ground as he should, and does not get anything out of the ground like what he ought to, and in the second place, as far as stock is concerned, firstly, it is in ferior stock, and secondly, he insists on overstocking the whole country with cattle, whereas the time for cattle breeding has passed on such a scale as the native is used to do, so that he is not economically using his opportunities today, and that is one of the reasons why we have resorted to the system of agricultural demonstrators, and why we have already two places in the territories where there is a kind of agricultural school. It was surprising to me to see the number of native students attending these schools, but in the meantime there is not the least doubt that because of the growth of population in these territories the natives individually—I will not say collectively—are poorer, and that is one of the reasons why the Native Development Fund was instituted last year. The hon. member for Tembuland (Mr. Payn) spoke about that proclamation business. I am afraid it is not an easy thing. I won’t say that some means cannot be found to assist the people there in what they are after ; the difficulties they are feeling with the awkward state of things, in consequence of the laws of the Union ipso facto being made applicable there, but I am afraid we cannot adopt his suggestion, as that would mean that the Native Affairs Department would practically have to control all the regulations under all the laws issued by the various Ministers.

Why not?

That would mean increasing the machinery of the department certainly by thousands of pounds. He spoke of the divorce courts. I was hoping this year to lay upon the table of the House an administrative Bill, but unfortunately, I have not been able to do so. It is a matter that requires so much attention. There are so many points that have to be carefully considered by the department, the legal advisers and myself, that we have not been able to do more than bring it to the stage that more or less we can be sure that it will come before Parliament next session. In regard to this question of the divorce courts, I think the hon. member will remember that I did express myself in favour of those natives getting their divorces as near home as possible, and I hope this will be one of the measures which will be treated in that Bill.

Why not let the old proclamation remain in force, giving the power back to the chief magistrate until your new law is in force?

I do not know that that would be quite so easy as it looks.

Quite easy. You can do anything in the territories.

In regard to the industrial development of the natives, I practically stated that in the native territories this will now be dependent on the moneys which We hope are going to come into the development fund, and as these come in we shall be in a position to know what they will be. After July, more or less, probably not before December, we will be in a position to know what we can expect from them, but I have the greatest hopes that this fund being instituted, and the moneys to be set apart for that purpose, will result in the native territories being in a better position than ever before, to come to development. The hon. member raised the question of the possibility of the natives paying for the lands we have bought at present, and have been bought in the Glen Grey district and so on. I do not think the department contemplates these lands being bought by these natives in a hurry, and all that we shall have to do will be to let these natives, as they do in other parts of the Union, pay rent, whether eventually they will buy or take over. But that is what is taking place in other provinces ; so that it is not a question of their being able to pay back the moneys at present paid for these farms. All the Government will say is :: “There are farms at your disposal,” and then get those who go there to pay rent as tenants.

: Is the rent going to be based on the capital cost of the farm?

I myself have felt rather dubious as to whether we will get our interest, but the department feels satisfied that we shall get our interest on the moneys invested.

I wish to refer to a matter which I brought up last year. It is the old standing question of the migration of natives into the towns, looking for employment and causing congestion. This is still going on. We have asked that some control should be exercised in issuing these passes. I understand that recently a number of natives arrived in a congested labour area—Cape Town—when there was no work for them. I know Governments have repeatedly stated they cannot control these removals. If the native asks for a pass to look for work he must get it. The Government only can bring in legislation to control the natives if power to do so is needed. Every town and municipality complain of locations being crowded, and natives being allowed to come forward ; and apparently there is no control even in the way of advising the natives where they can go and obtain employment. This being such a practical matter, I trust it will claim the practical attention of the department. The other question I will mention is the way in which natives employed on the mines are being sent home without being subjected to official medical examination to see if they have contracted miners phthisis. At three stations they are shipped off without such medical inspection, to avoid compensation for miners’ phthisis. This is an injustice. These natives are brought from their homes to work the gold industry ; to assist in making profits which grow larger and larger every year, and which, as we have frequently pointed out, go overseas to a considerable extent. I want to know why the native department does not fully protect these natives in that they are subjected to strict official medical examination, so that they can get the compensation due to them. Many of these natives when they come back to the labour area, to be taken on the mines, are told that they cannot be employed, because they have contracted miners’ phthisis. Where did they acquire the disease—in their locations? No! They receive no compensation. We cannot expect natives to work on the mines unless they obtain fair treatment. There are three stations on the Rand where the boys are sent and escape the examination in order to save wealthy mines payment of compensation. The natives should have a square deal. I put a question on the paper the other day in regard to this matter, but members are very cleverly put off in regard to questions. Apparently, I omitted to use the word “officials” in regard to medical examinations, and was answered accordingly. It is usually a case of “cross questions and crooked answers.” That is the attitude towards members by those who prepare replies that are put into the hands of Ministers.

I am pleased that some provision has been made for improving the salaries of headmen. Such a recognition is long overdue. Headmen’s duties are arduous and very varied—they have to act as police-mien, justices of the peace, assist in the collection of taxes, and they are also noxious weed inspectors; further, they have to maintain order. We have 22 headmen in the district of Herschel, and their average annual salary is £13 9s. 1d. That is altogether inadequate. On the other hand, a policeman who rides a horse and is provided with uniform draws an average annual wage of £57 to £60 a year, although his duties are not nearly so important as those of a headman. During an enquiry held in 1923, evidence was given showing how headmen could assist in the suppression of stock thefts. Their help in this respect would be invaluable. It would be wise, instead of having a large number of native policemen, to make better use of the headmen and to pay them more. Some time ago I held a meeting of headmen in the Herschel district, and suggested that any headman who failed to carry out his duties should be dismissed, that they should be better paid, have larger responsibilities, and that their tenure of office should be dependent on their doing their duty. They said they would welcome this. If this suggestion were adopted, headmen would be able to stop disorders in the native reserves. In many cases headmen, unfortunately, connive at stock thefts. Police officers have suggested that headmen should be rewarded for assisting in the detection of stock thefts, but that would have a bad effect, and it would be better to let them know that they would be liable to lose their posts unless they assisted to suppress thieving and generally to fulfil their duty. We should have headmen drawing better pay and given responsibilities, and so taking the place of a large number of policemen who are not doing nearly such good work as they might do if they steadfastly set their minds thereto.

Reverting to my remarks regarding the conditions under which labour is worked on the plantations, the matter was discussed at a magistrates’ conference at Umtata.

This is a very deep grievance, and the whole matter of recruiting labour requires controlling. Mr. Norton, the Native Commissioner of the Cis-kei, said that the question was, why did not Natal use its own labour? Mr. Brownlee said that a large number of the natives were in the fever area. I take it that every hon. member will accept the position that the climatic conditions, especially in Zululand, are absolutely against the existing class of labour which is working there. The hon. member for Zululand (Mr. Nicholls) has told the House that the Natal sugar industry pays the highest native wages in the agricultural industry. That is perfectly correct, and yet at the same time the hon. member tells the House that the desertions are appalling. The only step taken so far is to pass a clause in the Bill of the hon. member for Ermelo (Col.-Cdt. Collins), bringing these natives who are working on shift under the Masters and Servants Act, and making them liable to punishment for desertion. The desertions do exist, but what is the reason? These natives are taken from an absolutely healthy area to areas which these reports indicate to be absolutely a pest-hole at certain times of the year as far as malaria is concerned. The first thing that a native thinks of when he gets ill is to return to his home. He sees his fellows dying round him, he makes for his home ; can you blame him? I do urge upon the Minister that we must have control at both ends. The sugar planters complain that they are getting the riff-raff from the territories. The fact is that they take what the gold mines will not accept. There is an absence of legislative control and medical examination. These boys go forward without any examination, and it has been freely said that they are not in a fit state to work. I do ask the Minister if it is not time something was done to control this situation. We want the boys to have proper contracts, we want those contracts to be protected, and we want the natives to be examined, so that only sound boys are sent away. We want to see that proper feeding and housing conditions are given the boys on these estates. Another aspect of this question is the unsuitability of the Transkeian natives altogether for work in these malarial areas in Zululand. I do urge upon the Minister these two things— firstly, the introduction of legislation controlling recruiting and the conditions under which the boys are working, and secondly, the advisability and, indeed, the necessity of allowing Portuguese natives who are acclimatized to go into the malaria-infected districts of the Union.

I want to deal fully with the charges which the hon. member (Mr. Gilson) has brought forward, and also the conditions under which labour is employed in Natal and the causes of the mortality which has occurred there. The hon. member has made charges against the sugar and cotton industries which I entirely refute. Let me first say that the sugar industry is subjected to the same inspection by the Native Affairs inspectors as the mines are. We have at Eshowe, in Zululand, a Native Affairs inspector who has the right of entry to go on to all estates and see that the public health orders regarding housing are properly carried out. I have here a circular letter from the Native Affairs Department addressed to various inspectors, in which the Minister of Public Health authorizes them to enter upon land or premises in Zululand, make any inspection or perform any work that may be necessary under certain sections of the Public Health Act. Further correspondence on the subject shows that, so far as the housing conditions are concerned, all the orders that are issued by the Public Health authorities are being carried out, and carried out with willingness by all the planters in Natal. The official documents disclose that the bad treatment and sickness complained of does not lie at the doors of the sugar industry. The trouble does not arise there. The hon. member has touched upon a very much deeper phase of the whole question than has appeared on the surface. Following its white labour policy to the bitter end, the Government has put an end to the introduction of Portuguese labour which has been coming over the borders of Zululand and the Eastern Transvaal for many years past. This labour has filtered over without any let or hindrance, with the direct encouragement of the Government for years. It has been the means of developing economically portions of the country that would never otherwise be developed. The procedure in the past has been that a Portuguese native, who perhaps does not want to work on the mines, has presented himself at one of the stations along the border and asked for an inward permit, and without any difficulty that has been given to him, and he has come down to seek work on the sugar or cotton estates or on the farms in the eastern Transvaal or northern Natal. That has been stopped. The natives have been warned that if they come over the border they will be arrested, and they have been arrested. They have been sentenced to terms of imprisonment as prohibited immigrants. The whole policy of the past in getting this labour to develop our resources has been reversed. What is the result? The Government has allotted a large area of land in northern Zululand, which is the most malarious land in the Union. The men selected for these farms are people who have shown the Land Board that they have the necessary foresight and ability and the capital to win out ; and their first endeavour to develop their holdings is frustrated by the policy of the Government. Instead of being able to get the acclimatized labour which exists in plenty a few miles away, they have had to send down to recruiting agents in Maritzburg and elsewhere, and they get the riff-raff of the Union. This non-immune labour comes up into these malarious regions for which they are quite unfitted. They get malaria, are unable to work, become discontented, and desert, causing considerable loss and delay to the settlers. The cotton planters, who are the people mostly concerned, do look after these people when they become ill. I want to show how foolish this policy is, even from an economic point of view. If you turn to page 147 of the Economic Commission’s report, it says this—

Certainly in the malarial districts of Zululand no other labour except acclimatized labour will ever be able to work there. The attempt has been made to fasten the onus for the state of affairs commented upon in the correspondence read by the hon. member upon the sugar and cotton industries. I am going to place the guilt where it properly belongs. I am going to prove to the House, by correspondence placed on the Table by the Minister, that the Government has been guilty of criminal folly in sending men to their death when they were firmly warned that if the men went there they would die. By preventing the importation of acclimatized Portuguese labour for work in northern Zululand, they have sent many natives to their death. At the beginning of the session, I asked for reports from the Railway, Native Affairs and Public Health Departments on the subject of native labour in Zululand, and I have here a mass of letters placed on the Table by the Ministers concerned. When the construction of the line from Matubatuba to Pongola was decided upon, it was thought that perhaps white labour might be used in the construction. The Department was then warned by medical authority that if they used white labour they would die, and it would be criminal to do so. The Government was impressed by the evidence, and decided upon native labour. Anyone who knows anything about human resistance to disease knows that the European resists malaria much better than the non-immune native, and if it was criminal to send Europeans to work in Zululand then it was criminal to send natives from Pondoland and the Transkei, who were already physically unfit, and less able to withstand a malarial climate than the European. On the 8th December. 1924, this is what was said by the medical officer in regard to the railway construction—

This was in December, 1924, just at the entrance to the malarial season, and instead of taking these natives away and sending natives who were immune, the Government allowed this condition of things to go on. On the 27th of February, 1925, the Public Health authority in Durban wrote to the Secretary for Public Health—

These natives, turned off by the contractors, stream down the line. They do not die on the formation ; they die on the way home, or after arrival ; and these are the people the sugar industry and the cotton industry are charged with killing. On the 1st of April, the Public Health Officer at Durban wrote to the Medical Officer of Health here—

On the 2nd of May another letter was written from the public health authority in Durban to the Chief Native Commissioner in Natal—

This is all blamed on the sugar industry. [Time limit.]

I rise to support all that has been said by the right hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Sir Thomas Smartt). In my own division there have been heavy losses on the crops, and this has led to very great distress. It is not only the natives who are suffering from starvation, but our Europeans as well. We have one of the most congested areas as far as the natives are concerned, and the Minister knows that himself, seeing that he has visited that part. An amount of £250 is put down for the relief of distress. On the agricultural vote £16,000 was put down for drought distress under the Relief Act, that is for Europeans, and £200,000 for unemployment—practically also to be used for relief for Europeans ; but only a paltry £250 is put down for the relief of distress of the natives. I am very pleased that such a large number of hon. members have mentioned the native agricultural demonstrators. The Minister has told us that they should be paid out of the development fund. Do hon. members think that this is right, and that this, fund, which comes out of the native direct taxation, should be charged to provide these native demonstrators? This should come out of general revenue. If it is charged to the development fund it will become overloaded. I should like to know what provision is to be made for the establishment of native councils, and how many will there be in Kingwilliamstown? The natives have been asking for this, and I should like to know what progress has been made. What workable understanding has been arrived at with the Divisional Council in connection with taxation?

I want to continue the story where I left off. The administration were warned of the amount of life that was being lost, and they used every remedy but the right one ; that is, to take the non-immune natives away and bring immune natives in. On the 12th May it was decided to push ahead with the mosquito-proof defences, and anyone who knows anything of natives at all knows that mosquito-proof houses are very little safeguard. Owing to the difficulty of having to move camps from place to place, it is almost impossible to keep the natives in a mosquito-proof house. The resident medical officer began to feel that he was being blamed for the state of things, and he wrote—

On the 20th August the general manager of railways wrote to the secretary of public health that there were some 60 deaths amongst natives employed by the contractors. Why, this is a battle—a campaign being carried on. The railway medical officer considers that approximately 30 per cent, died of malaria uncomplicated, although badly nourished, 40 per cent, of malaria complicated with phthisis, scurvy and influenza, and 10 per cent, of dysentery. I have just received information to-day that last month the Railway Administration sent up six Europeans and a gang of natives to remove part of the old bridge left by the flood of a couple of years ago. While erecting their huts one of the six Europeans died of blackwater fever, and a native died, and the whole gang had to be removed without doing the work that they had to do. So little recognition is there of the climate. There is no record in this number of deaths of those who died on the way home. We know that 80 died on the spot, and we can only guess, how many died on the road. The general manager puts the blame On the Government for its policy, because he himself had tried to obtain immunized labour to work there, but owing to the white labour policy, he could not bring this about. On the 5th September we have this from the Union Health Department. It is the strongest indictment I could possibly make—

This is from the Union Officer of Health. On the 19th September the Secretary for Native Affairs found it necessary to write to the general manager of railways in the following terms—

We cannot bring immune labour over to our country because of the policy adopted by the Government for their exclusion. There is another malarial season ahead, and still the same position, with the Government taking no notice, although these natives are dying like flies! There is the warning from the Native Affairs Department to the administration itself to get immunized labour, and still there is no attempt made to do so. So more natives arrived from Pondoland and elsewhere to be broken in in the unhealthy spots in Zululand, where a large portion of their labour is valueless. On the 11th of December last the Health Officer in Durban wrote the construction engineer of the works at Matubatuba that Hluhluwe river was one of the most malarious places in South Africa, only approached in malignity by other swamp country immediately to the north of it; that out of one lot of 40 boys, 25 had taken malaria ; that he understood there were no mosquito-proof barracks and no anti-mosquito work and that, unless proper measures were taken immediately, serious illness and death among employees in this part were unavoidable. That was after twelve months’ efforts by the Public Health authority to try to bring about an improvement ; and the blame for all this mortality is thrown on the cotton painter. He goes on to say—

That is to the Railway Administration. If anybody brought an accusation like this against a private employer in this country, I wonder what would be said in this House? The letter goes on—

No precautions, under all the circumstances, could prevent a heavy death rate amongst such a class of recruits. [Time limit.]

The Minister sent the Native Affairs Commission to Natal about a year ago to deal with the question of the better enforcement of the Masters and Servants Act, not only in that province, but with the object, I think, of unifying the system throughout the Union. I wonder whether the Minister could tell us whether, as a result of the report of that commission, we can expect better administration and better enforcement than at present. There is a great deal of wide-spread complaint as to the indiscipline among native labourers on the farms, and the difficulty of managing this form of labour where people are far removed from magisterial influence and where, as in the past, they are obliged to use moral suasion to keep their natives at work. I think the Minister would be gratifying a very large class of people interested in this question if he would give us information on that point. I should like to supplement what the hon. member for Zululand (Mr. Nicholls) has said in regard to the unwisdom of preventing natives from Portuguese territory entering Zululand for employment by the cotton planters. In addition to the embargo on Portuguese territory, there seems to be some difficulty in getting Swaziland labour for farm work in the Union, and that is a great mistake, because at one point in Zululand, Swaziland natives are conveniently situated ; are immune to malaria and are men who would be very useful, as they understand the kind of work in which they are needed for cotton plantation and sugar cultivation. There is one other point. Certain changes have recently been made in the native administration in Zululand. The Minister, I think, has transferred the magistrate at Nongoma, who has hitherto been responsible for native administration in the whole of Northern Zululand. He might let us know whether he is entirely satisfied with the native administration in that region, because there are complaints in portions of Natal that some of the Zulu chiefs are exercising political influence and sending messengers into the Natal districts to raise money for certain funds in Zululand. That action, on the part of Zulu chiefs, has been resented by the chiefs in Natal, and I hope the Minister will be able to tell us whether he will be able to put a stop to that kind of political influence being used by the chiefs in Zululand.

I would like to conclude this story, which is a sorry one for this country. After twelve months of knocking at the door of the Railway Administration by the Department of Public Health and the Department of Native Affairs all telling the same story, practically no action was taken to overcome the difficulty. These natives were undoubtedly sacrificed on the altar of a foolish political theory. On the 25th of January, 1926, the Public Health authority of Durban wrote to the secretary for Public Health, Pretoria—

Still poor after eighteen months—

These quasi-immune natives were coming from the farmers all round and were being induced to desert from the farms to come to these contractors at a higher rate than they were getting on the farms. So the Administration began to solve its difficulties by robbing the farmers—

No! We do not know all the deaths. They have occurred in many places, at the railway station, on the road, in their villages after they had crawled back home. The graveyard the hon. member mentioned contains no doubt a number of them. But what else could be expected. I have a letter from the Inspector of Native Labour in Northern Zululand who writes that the majority of natives are recruited labour and they are the worst boys he has come in contact with, mostly scum picked up in large areas and sent forward and are unfit for the work The climatic and other conditions at the camp tell on them with the result that only 50 per cent, turn out to work. Until the boys are medically examined he is afraid the present state of affairs will continue. I hope the Minister will realize what the position is. There are some 30,000 acres of land under cotton, and the only labour which can effectively work in that neighbourhood is the labour which the Government is preventing entering the Union. I hope the Government will endeavour to bring about an amelioration of the shocking state of affairs to which I have called attention.

T see the item £500 for maintenance of border fences. What fences are these? Until about three years ago an arrangement existed by which a fence rider was employed by the Herschel magistrate to maintain the border fence, the farmers contributing their share of the man’s pay. However, the farmers found that the fences were falling into disrepair, as the man was not doing his duty, so it was necessary for them to do the job themselves. Consequently they notified the magistrate that they would cease to pay any further contribution for the wages of the fence rider. The fence belongs as much to the Government as to the farmers, so it is the Government's duty to assist them to defray the cost of its repair.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 8.7 p.m.