Mr. Speaker, I move—

As hon. members know, the Railway and Harbour Purchase Act, 1977 (Act No. 47 of 1977) provides for the purchase and equipment of the Sishen-Saldanha Bay railway and the harbour at Saldanha.

Section 2 of the above-mentioned Act provides that the cost of the project will be defrayed out of loans raised by the State President or the General Manager of the South African Railways under the authority of law and appropriated for that purpose by Parliament, or out of any other moneys so appropriated. According to the legal opinion of senior advocates acting on behalf of the banks from which Iscor raised loans for the Sishen-Saldanha project, section 16(1) of the Railways and Harbours Finance and Accounts Act, 1977 (Act No. 48 of 1977) and Act No. 47 of 1977 does not give the Railways sufficient authorization to take over the Iscor loans.

With this in mind, and in order to eliminate all doubt that the Railways are taking over the rights and obligations in respect of all the loans raised by Iscor for the building of the railway, the construction of the harbour as well as the purchase of the equipment relating thereto, it is deemed advisable that section 2 of Act No. 47 of 1977 should be suitably amended.

Mr. Speaker, we in these benches will support this measure. The hon. the Minister will perhaps remember the arguments which we had when the original legislation was passed, and particularly in the Railway budget where only a nominal amount had been voted for the purchase. We then queried the difference between the amount voted and the total cost of the project. At the time the hon. the Minister virtually told us that we did not know what we were talking about. It was simply that the Railways would take over the bond debts of Iscor.

We had a slight argument about it and it seems as though the Sishen-Saldanha line is becoming the “I-told-you-so” line. [Interjections.] This now puts the matter in order, and therefore we will support the measure.

Mr. Speaker, it has always been the attitude of members in these benches that the right home for the Sishen-Saldanha railway line is the S.A. Railways. We have said that before. We also, when the Bill was originally passed, expressed our reservations about the sort of bargain we were getting. However, in order to facilitate the transfer of this line completely—and we are back-dating it—to the S.A. Railways we will support this Bill.

Mr. Speaker, the members of my party and I are glad that the hon. the Minister found it necessary to put the matter beyond all doubt as regards the take-over of the Sishen-Saldanha railway. We are also satisfied as regards the financial arrangements, and we support the Bill.

Question agreed to.

Mr. Chairman, when we adjourned last night I was busy putting to the hon. the Minister a suggestion about how the securities rand market could be utilized in order to make tourism from outside into South Africa more competitive. There is just one other small point I would like to put to the hon. the Minister. That is that sometimes it is very difficult for certain sectors of the tourist field—and I am thinking specifically of game farms—to meet some of their necessary requirements in order to make their industry a success. An example of this is liquor licences.

Mr. Chairman, I am sorry but I cannot hear the member.

Mr. Chairman, I am referring to the difficulties that game farms have in getting liquor licences. There are certain regulations which have been laid down by the hon. the Minister of Justice as to what is necessary for any hotel or establishment to get a liquor licence. Quite clearly, when one has a game farm, the last things one wants to do is let the game farm look like a beach-front hotel. The whole thing about a game farm is the special atmosphere that relates to the bush. I wonder if the hon. the Minister could see his way clear to helping game farms to get liquor licences. Game farms are very important earners of foreign exchange for South Africa. When visitors come to South Africa, one of the first things they want to do is to visit a game farm. It is therefore essential for the people who run these game farms to be able to get liquor licences so that they can provide a decent service to tourists.

Mr. Chairman, unlike the hon. members of the Opposition who emphasized finances and costs, I should like to dwell for a few moments on something else, and that is our natural scenery, a major tourist attraction in South Africa.

At the very outset, however, I want to avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate the secretary of the department, together with the people gathered round him, on the particularly brilliant report the department published this year. I think this report will be seen not only as a report of the activities in the sphere of tourism, but also as a scientific document of which we in South Africa need not be ashamed.

I think it is necessary for any organization which means well by the long-term planning of tourism not only in South Africa, but also in any country of the world, to pay attention to the wishes and desires of the tourists. Moreover, I think it is necessary to conduct a more penetrating investigation into man’s needs and to take a closer look at those needs. It is true that the tastes and needs of man may often differ. These are subject to the spirit of the times and to what is fashionable. It is also true that tastes may change. A shift of emphasis may occur in the various types of sport which may serve as a means of attracting tourists. What we may regard as recreation and fun today, may be out of fashion tomorrow. That is why I think it is a good thing to take a look at the needs of man.

At present we are living in a time which exhausts man. Man is exhausted by the tensions and struggles of this time. Man is exhausted by the falseness of the world. Whether it is true or not, man is also becoming tired of what he has achieved. Although this may sound alarming, man is also becoming tired of what he is still striving after. That is why, in considering the needs of man, we shall be doing well to make provision also for that rest which man is actually looking for and striving after. This is nothing new. In 1929 a book was published, a book written by the late Col. James Stephenson Hamilton. I think that man may be regarded as the father of the idea of conservation in South Africa, and some also regard him as the father of the Kruger National Park. At the time of writing the book, this man asked the late Gen. Smuts, the then Prime Minister and the leader of a once powerful political party, to write a foreword to the book. Gen. Smuts wrote the following with reference to the Lowveld of the Transvaal—

It is not the duty of the Department of Tourism to enter new fields. Nor do I think, from the nature of the case, that it is the duty of the department to take the initiative in creating new tourist attractions. In fact, the department does not have the necessary power to be able to do so. The task of the department is to regulate the tourist potential in South Africa and to point out the tourist potential to those who have a desire to visit this country. That is why we address an appeal from this House to private initiative in South Africa to do its share in promoting tourism in South Africa.

Without any fear of contradiction we may say that South Africa is probably the country in which private initiative is doing least of all to make the country attractive to tourists. On one occasion an article was published in the Financial Gazette under the heading “First Task to our Tourist Bodies”. In the article reference was made to a few key points in South Africa in respect of which nothing has been done as yet. One has appreciation for the attempts made by local authorities as well as for the attempts made by some entrepreneurs who are developing tourism in South Africa or who are creating opportunities for the development of tourism. However, if one takes a look at the existing resources and the untapped resources, one realizes that we in South Africa still have a long way to go.

Clifton in the Cape Peninsula has become world famous thanks to the photographs of the bikinis and silver beaches published by Satour. When one takes a look at what is being offered in the vicinity of Clifton, one realizes that it is pathetic. There is only one hotel available to the tourist and for the rest numerous flats surround this coastal resort. This coastal resort in which there are crowds of people for six or seven months of the year, is deserted for five months of the year. I think the Cape Peninsula, with the necessary imagination, will be able to utilize this natural resource, not by making it a playground for tourists in the winter months, but by creating facilities for those who want to visit Clifton to relax and also for those who are looking for the peace and quiet of nature. I believe that this can be done with the necessary imagination.

It is not only the Peninsula, however, which may be somewhat guilty of a lack of initiative, because this accusation may be levelled at virtually every centre. In Durban particular emphasis is placed on hotels and the availability of accommodation. If one takes away the hotels, however, I am afraid little more than an amusement park remains in Durban. What may be said of Durban and Cape Town, may possibly be said with more justification about our inland centres.

I think Pretoria will have to realize that it is not enough to build up an image of the “Blue Bulls”, the Northern Transvaal rugby team. [Interjections.] Pretoria lends itself to those who want to see what has already been achieved and established in South Africa. One does not want to avail oneself unnecessarily of this opportunity to question the demolition of existing buildings, but perhaps we in South Africa should take a look at what is being done overseas to preserve old buildings for those who want to come and see them.

I do not want to be provincialistic, and for that reason I want to admit that virtually nothing is being done in the Free State and Bloemfontein to show the tourist and the visitor what is being done there. What is true of the larger centres, is even more true of the smaller centres. It is true of a place like Brandfort too. If one has listened to what has been said about Brandfort during the past few weeks, it may be somewhat daring to say: All roads lead to Brandfort.

I want to come back, however, to the subject of our natural scenery and to what it offers us. I think the time has arrived for the Department of Tourism to conduct a penetrating inquiry, in co-operation with the National Parks Board, into the matter of long-term planning concerning conservation and the making available of the necessary areas to give an ever-growing population space to breathe. In the large laboratories of the Kruger National Park, wonderful work is being done by people who do conservation, research and educational work according to rules they themselves have laid down. I think the time has arrived for us to realize that in future we shall need to have a larger number of natural sanctuaries. These must be natural sanctuaries, not only for plants and animals, but also for man in the times which lie ahead. Hardly any congress in the world on tourism or recreation takes place today without the emphasis being placed on conservation and the danger of exhausting our resources. That is why it will be a good thing in the long term if we in South Africa develop and conserve these natural sanctuaries for our people.

I want to express my gratitude to the department for the work which has already been done in connection with special interest tours. These are tours for people who come to South Africa from abroad in special interest groups. Our paleontology as well as our geography lends itself to this. Perhaps the time has also arrived for us to offer more special interest tours for various professions henceforth. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Bethlehem described how one could rest, and I assume he also had members of the House of Assembly in mind when he made that remark. On this beautiful Cape morning—only the Cape can give us a morning like this—he succeeded in taking us with him through the natural surroundings of South Africa. It was noticeable that when he referred to Clifton, even the older hon. members in this House showed signs of life. On page 17 of the annual report of the control board of the S.A. Tourist Corporation, there are two amounts which definitely deserve one’s attention. I am referring to the number of visitors who arrived in this country in 1956—161 000—and the number who came in 1976—638 000. Over a period of 20 years we find an ever-rising graph, and a difference of 477 000 between 1956 and 1976. Naturally, there were factors present during this period which promoted tourism throughout the whole world.

The most important was probably the sound economic climate which prevailed, which all countries could share in and which enabled people to travel. Money was fairly easily available, and the South African also shared in it. Another factor was that during this period we had, and still have, better, more rapid transport facilities. I believe, however, that it would be extremely unfair to ascribe the increase in the number of visitors to the sound economic climate or the improved transport facilities only. In the first place, I should like to make mention here of the gigantic task which has been done and is still being done by the Department of Tourism and the S.A. Tourist Corporation. The task of Satour is described with this single sentence: “To develop the tourist industry of the RSA by encouraging people to visit the Republic of South Africa from elsewhere and to travel about in it.” If we look at it like this and consider it superficially, it sounds like an easy task and one feels the romanticism of travelling and being on holiday. We must, however, bear in mind that, when South Africa formed its tourist corporation on 1 August 1947, it entered an established world market and had to compete with countries which already had an established tourist industry and that it had to compete immediately with countries which had centuries of history and tradition behind them. Since 1947, as we all know, South Africa has been faced with a political climate which is not in its favour. There have also been occurrences in Africa which have not promoted tourism to South Africa. In spite of that, however, Satour has succeeded in always bringing a stream of visitors to South Africa. The question we may ask is how the corporation has done this. It has succeeded in creating and developing a specialized tourist marketing organization by means of which opportunities have been created and the selling of trips to South Africa has been stimulated. I should like to emphasize here that tourism is a matter of marketing. Tourism is selling those things which one’s country offers. It can be compared with selling an article, in this case a very expensive article, because to travel from one country to another naturally costs a great deal of money. I do not believe that the corporation would have been so successful if there had not been regular market research. In this way information was obtained on the various marketing areas.

Here we must also mention the other activities of Satour, including overseas visits by officials, attending an international marketing conference, intensive work programmes, Press liaison, lecture tours, exhibitions and shows. Then we can understand why they have been so successful. I want to allege that Satour and the Department of Tourism, and all those who are involved in the South African tourist industry, have done a mammoth job in silence and that this has produced positive results for South Africa. It has created publicity for South Africa and it has attracted tourists to South Africa. We may rest assured that the overseas marketing of South Africa’s tourist industry is in good hands, and I believe that if we have the correct economic climate, we may predict that a splendid future awaits this fine tourist industry in South Africa.

If we look at the domestic tourist industry, I should like to draw attention to the Department of Tourism’s programme for interregional marketing. The Western Cape region is the first region which has launched an active programme of inter-regional marketing. Firstly, this region appointed a strong action committee, a committee which is representative of all the various branches of the tourist industry. Hon. members sitting here all represent constituencies in a specific region in our country. Each one wants his region to be visited by tourists and wants the tourist attractions of his region to be emphasized. We must realize, however, that we must involve all the people concerned with tourism—the hotel industry, the business world and local authorities—and that tourism is not only the hobby of a certain society or of individual people. No matter what peoples’ intentions are, it must be borne in mind that it is a tremendous task to market a specific region in South Africa and to introduce it to visitors from abroad, a task which is too big for individuals. That is why I want to advocate the establishment of a strong action committee for every region in which everyone concerned with tourism should be involved. The Western Cape region went further and launched a marketing action too. If we want people to visit this area, a small advertisement in a newspaper will not have the desired result. We must go all out to sell the region and our attempts must be aimed in particular at those people who do not normally visit the region. This Western Cape action committee also intends to market the Western Cape as a holiday resort for the whole year round. Unfortunately, many regions have come to assume that people only visit a region during the school holidays or during the best season. Naturally, we do not take much trouble to attract people to a specific region. The Southern Cape has fine beaches and a beautiful hinterland. During the December/January period and during school holidays there is a great pressure of visitors in this region because it is not a problem to market the region during this period. We experience problems, however, during the June and July period every year. Therefore I want to advocate a strong action committee for every region, which should proceed from the premise that the region must be marketed all the year round. The tourist attractions of the region must be presented in such a way as to attract people. Particular emphasis must be laid on the climate of that area. Therefore we need a strong, concerted attempt in every region of the country.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Bethlehem made a great fuss about his area and the place called Brandfort. The only mistake he made was that he never told us where the place or farm called Brandfort is situated. The constituency of the hon. member for Oudtshoorn has become very famous. The large birds there have become famous all over the world and in South Africa. Now it is my turn. I come from a constituency which has a big hole. The diamonds which come from there are marketed all over the world.

However, I want to associate myself with previous speakers on both sides of the House who have paid tribute to this fine report of the Department of Tourism. It is a highly professional, excellent report on which one can congratulate those who drew it up. We tell them: Carry on in this way. It is a brilliant report.

The ideal of attracting 1 million tourists to South Africa still remains a dream which eludes us in South Africa. According to the data, 730 368 tourists visited South Africa in 1975. This was an exceptionally good year for tourism. Since 1967 there has been a constant increase in the number of tourists who come to South Africa. In 1975 the revenue from tourism was R274 million. If we look at the figures for 1976, we see that there was a gradual decrease in the number of tourists. In that year a total of 638 479 tourists visited the country. This represents a decrease of 12,58%, or 91 889 tourists as against 1975. By comparison, the world increase in tourism was only 2%. This is due to the high rate of inflation. The decrease in South Africa is also due to the very high rate of inflation and the domestic riots. If every tourist spends an average of R300 during his visit to South Africa, this decrease means a drop of R27,3 million in revenue in the form of foreign currency.

On the plus side, it can be said that there was a decrease of 142 547 in the number of South Africans who travelled abroad. If we then calculate that every South African spends an average of R500 abroad, this decrease means a saving of R71 283 000 in foreign currency. Nevertheless, tourism gave us an income of R279 million in foreign currency in 1976. Therefore, despite the decline in the tourist industry, there was an increase of approximately R5 million over the income of the previous year.

If we analyse the South African position and if we want to find reasons for this decline in the South African tourist industry, we must firstly admit to one another that it is due to the world-wide phenomenon of inflation. This is so obvious that I need say no more about it. It speaks for itself.

Secondly, tourism is very closely linked to political unrest, to stability and to peace and quiet in any country. I think a second reason for the slump in the tourist industry in South Africa is the fact that there was a decrease of 30 000 in the number of tourists who came to South Africa from Angola and Mozambique in the past year. This is merely due to the overthrow of the Governments in Mozambique and Angola. The only people who now come to South Africa from the countries concerned are starved refugees, the victims of what one can call the Black majority rule supported by communists. Thirty thousand tourists who used to come to South Africa from those two countries will never visit our country again.

Thirdly, our domestic unrest had a great deal to do with this. In 1976 there was a drop in the number of tourists who came to South Africa. As from July last year, the drop increased progressively from 6,6% to 23% in September. This shows us that it was a direct consequence of the riots in our country. We must admit that tourism is extremely sensitive to domestic unrest and political instability.

Sir, I now come back to South Africa and specifically to our political parties in South Africa and the so-called political leaders, or rather the political bunglers. They do not care a jot whether South Africa attracts tourists from abroad as a result of their actions. I want to substantiate this and dwell on it for a moment. I want to allege that the political party opposite flourishes on domestic unrest. That is why they sow suspicion; that is why they criticize our legal system; that is why they criticize our police and our political structure; and that is why they are always announcing to the world, to anyone who wants to listen, that we are a police state. They are undermining the authority of the Government.

I can see you were an organizer.

We are supposedly the oppressors of Wits, Nusas, etc. The hon. the leader of the PRP says he can see that I was an organizer. I had better not tell him in this House what I can see he was or is, because, Mr. Chairman, you will say that I must withdraw it. This is what happens in South Africa when one has to deal with political bunglers like those sitting on that side of the House.

Order! The hon. member must withdraw the words “political bunglers”.

Very well, Sir, I withdraw them. They are not political bunglers.

In spite of all this, the Department of Tourism has to sell South Africa abroad. This is what the department has to do in spite of our problems, in spite of the fact that we are supposedly a police state …

In spite of the Opposition too.

Yes, in spite of the PRP in particular—the others are not so bad. I said that tourism is very sensitive to political stability, to peace and quiet. This applies to any country, especially because tourism is something which must be planned far ahead. Let me just quote what is stated on page 8 of the annual report of the department—

This just shows us how far the department must plan ahead in order to sell South Africa abroad.

In conclusion I want to point out that when the hon. the Prime Minister visited Vienna recently and addressed the Young Presidents there, he invited them to visit South Africa and hold their next congress here. This is a very good thing.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to say one or two things in this debate on tourism. Before raising specific matters, I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister and his department on what I think is a new impetus: I get the impression that there is a new broom in the department and I think that the films and publications put out by the department are of a high standard. I think they should be congratulated on that.

As regards the type of tourist we attract to South Africa, it is my experience that one of the reasons why we do not get as many tourists as I believe we should is the cost involved in travelling to South Africa. There is a tremendous expense involved. We are, geographically, very isolated indeed. If one thinks of the fare from America and Europe, and particularly from Germany and the central European areas, it is clear that South Africa is far away. Many other pleasure spots and holiday spots are much closer to Europe and therefore it is far less expensive to go there.

I think we also neglect South America. I think there should be a far greater bond of friendship built up between South American countries and ourselves. I do not think that we sell what we have to offer in South America as well as we should. As regards American tourists, the quickest and, in fact, least expensive way for them to get to South Africa is by way of New York, Rio de Janeiro and Cape Town. That route is one which should be used very much more in trying to attract tourists.

That brings me to the point that the department in my opinion should go out of its way to try to sell South Africa as a tourist attraction, especially in America. I think there should be a top-class public relations campaign launched by the department. If the hon. the Minister wants to get results he will have to spend a lot of money. We have all sorts of difficulties to overcome. The unfortunate impression has been created that we are politically unstable. That problem has got to be overcome. Secondly, there is the problem of distances which I referred to and, thirdly, there is the ignorance of people. I find that an enormous number of Americans travel from the United States to Kenya, but then they do not come down to South Africa, which is what they should do. They spend their holiday of 10 days or a week in Kenya and then return to the USA. That is the sum total of their knowledge of Africa. They think that Kenya and South Africa are in some way all part of one geographic whole. They do not realize that there are over 2 000 miles between the two countries, that we are completely different types of people and that South Africa has something quite different to offer. The hon. the Minister must realize that his department has to spend a lot of money in breaking down the resistance to coming to South Africa.

Opinion-formers, for example the editors of important newspapers, have to be brought to South Africa. The department has to bring them here and finance their visit. I am thinking also of important magazines. To give just two examples, there are the two American magazines Vogue and Town and Country. If one has the editors and photographers of high-class publications of that kind come to South Africa, they are going to do an enormous lot to publicize South Africa, free of charge, in the future, the department having made the initial expenditure of bringing them here. This type of magazine has to plan its programme a year in advance. I was in New York recently and I spoke to the editress of Vogue. She told me that they planned their programme a year in advance. In fact, what is now appearing in Town and Country and Vogue took place in Europe say, nine, ten or even twelve months ago. These people have to be approached at a high level well in advance. One cannot just expect them to come out to South Africa at a couple of months’ notice. One has to plan years in advance. This requires an enormous campaign.

One also has the situation that a lot of the big companies which send tourists to other parts of the African continent, do not include South Africa in their schedule. These people have to be brought out to the Republic to see for themselves. Another point that should be made at this stage is that the tourists who come to South Africa, whether as part of a tour or as individuals, do not want to spend all their time in a hotel and going on bus tours from the hotel to various scenic beauty spots in South Africa. The regional structure, the regional committees of the Department of Tourism, should try to introduce some scheme whereby the tourists will meet the people of South Africa. They do not want to see just the places and animals in South Africa; they actually want to meet the people. I think it would be enormously beneficial to us if there were to be such a voluntary organization set up in each of our areas. I do not think it requires much imagination. There are a lot of service organizations who very often look for something to do. If the hon. the Minister were to in span the support of the Rapportryers, the Lions, Round Table, Rotary and other organizations like that, he could have a meet-the-people-campaign as part of the department’s tourist effort. I want to make another suggestion. There is a man in South Africa who has a very distinguished record in the world of tourism. He is the chairman and the owner of the TFC company. The TFC organization is a very important organization and is a giant amongst tourist organizations in South Africa. The man at the head of this organization is an exceptional individual, Mr. Foggitt, who I know has a tremendous number of ideas as to how South Africa can sell itself better overseas and how it can attract tourists. This man has been in the tourism business full-time for the last 25 years. He is a vastly experienced man and a man of strong personality and ability. If the hon. the Minister could establish something like a national advisory committee to include people of experience like the gentleman to whom I have referred, I think the department will only benefit from their advice and from their experience.

I think this hon. Minister has a real stake in the present liquor laws, or their inadequacy, in South Africa. If one travels in America or in Europe, one can at least get wine and malt and, in most cases, spirits, in cafés and in restaurants. I think the hon. the Minister should make his influence felt with regard to the needs of the tourists coming into South Africa, with a view to a far greater relaxation of the liquor laws so that at least at eating places, cafés and restaurants, liquor can be available to tourists, quite apart from ourselves. We are antiquated in this respect. I think we are living a hundred years behind the times. My experience is that in the countries where there is a freer distribution of liquor in cafés and in restaurants, there is not a heavier incidence of drunkenness. I think people become more experienced in their drinking habits …

In France they have the highest incidence of alcoholism in the world.

That hon. member is a pacifist and I want nothing to do with him. [Interjections.] The department has a real interest in this matter and I feel that the hon. the Minister should investigate the issue to see whether he cannot make representations to the hon. the Minister of Justice in order to obtain a relaxation in this regard.

My final plea is that the hon. the Minister should also interest himself in the question of the provision of harbours for deep-sea fishing. This matter has been raised under various other Votes from time to time.

[Inaudible.]

If that hon. member had any manners, he would keep quiet. Deep-sea fishing is an important aspect of tourism. I know that tourists who come from South America and from America to South Africa, are appalled at the fact that there are not proper boating facilities in South Africa as there are in each of their countries. I think the hon. the Minister must also discuss the matter with the hon. the Minister of Sport and Recreation, who is responsible for the provision of small boat harbours. Greater attention should be given to the creation of harbours which will attract people from overseas and which will also play a part in stimulating internal tourism. One of the most popular sports in South Africa at present is angling, both internal and external. Without facilities at the coastal areas, we are neglecting something that could be an international money-spinner and something which could provide a boost and a stimulation to the local tourist industries of the coastal areas.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Simonstown submitted certain suggestions and ideas to the hon. the Minister and his department, and he did this in a responsible way. I am convinced that the hon. the Minister and the department will consider his suggestions. If it is possible for them to make use of them, they will definitely do so.

Tourism fulfils the same function as an export market and affords us the opportunity of earning foreign currency. People from abroad can buy our products without our having to export them. Last year tourism was responsible for more than R200 million entering the country, without a great deal having been done apart from the advertising and the work done by the offices of the department. What does the department do to promote tourism?

Today I should like to discuss briefly a subdivision of the Department of Tourism, i.e. the work done by the Hotel Board. The Hotel Board does important work for the department and for tourism. When the Hotels Act was introduced in 1965, the then Minister of Tourism said (Hansard, Vol. 15 of 1965, col. 6029)—

In addition the board may lend money to registered establishments for improvements so that the standards of such establishments may be improved in this way. Since 1967 the department has received and considered as many as 118 applications for improvements and for new projects. R2,5 million has already been spent on the improvement of existing hotels. A further R185 000 has been used for two new projects. Another responsibility of the Hotel Board is that of training. The co-ordination, encouragement and provision of training of staff for the hotel industry—this includes all races, of course—is the responsibility of the Hotel Board.

The hotel school in Johannesburg, which forms part of the Witwatersrand College for Advanced Education, trains White staff for the hotel industry. A course in hotel management is offered, as well as a one-year diploma course for hotel receptionists. In addition a course in catering is offered. The hotel school maintains a very high standard of training. Four of the 44 students who followed an academic course last year, received bursaries from the Hotel Board so as to enable them to gain experience in the hotel industry abroad. Those four students returned to South Africa highly commended by the hotels where they had worked abroad. Throughout the various periods of training we had students abroad. All returned to South Africa and at the moment they are doing good work in the South African hotel industry.

As far as the training of Coloureds for the hotel industry is concerned, I want to point out that this takes place here in Cape Town at the Landdrost Hotel School in Lansdowne. Cooks and waiters are trained at that school. Asians in the hotel industry are trained at the M.L. Sultan College in Durban. Cooks and waiters are also trained at that college. A course in hotel management is also offered at the college. Black staff in the hotel industry are trained at the hotel school in Ga-Rankuwa. This school also trains cooks and waiters. That hotel school is very popular. In 1976 426 Blacks were trained there. The standard of the training at the school is very high. Consequently this hotel school had the honour last year of receiving the sought-after award “Maison de Qualité” from the French Order of St. Fortunates in Paris for the excellent service rendered by the school in the training of Blacks. This is a very special distinction indeed.

In addition to these things the Hotel Board also introduced in-service training last year. In this way staff gains practical experience of the hotel industry. The hotel school has regular contact with the various training schools and colleges in that representatives serving on its advisory committees liaise with one another and iron out problems regularly. The hotel school has also received a request from the homelands to assist them in the training of their staff. This will be done, of course. In this way the Black States are being assisted in their task of creating an hotel and catering service of a very high quality. It will also contribute towards providing high quality service to tourists who visit the homelands. It is true that tourists have to travel long distances in order to reach our country and when they are here, they should be able to make use of all the amenities and attractions we have here. That is why it is gratifying that the Black States are able to provide them with service of this high quality.

Another task and responsibility of the Hotel Board is that of the registration, grading and grouping of hotels. Since 1967 they have registered, graded and grouped a total number of 1 467 hotels. This demands regular inspection of these hotels, of course, not only in order to grade new hotels, but also to see that the existing hotels maintain the standards.

The National Liquor Board has granted licences to 40 international hotels and in addition to those there are 50 registered and graded hotels specially for non-Whites, which are divided as follows: There are 11 hotels for Asians, one for Coloureds, one for Blacks and there is one under construction in the vicinity of Germiston which will hopefully be completed next year. There is one for Asians and Blacks, 20 for Asians and Coloureds and 16 hotels for all three coloured groups. In other words, there is a total of 90 hotels which can be used by non-Whites. The needs in this regard will grow of course, and we may be sure that as the standards of the Coloureds rise, they, too, will wish to take more holidays and travel. Of course I am referring to tourists from our neighbouring states as well. In view of the interest, financial and otherwise of the non-Whites in the Hotel Board, the opportunity was created this year by means of the Hotels Amendment Bill for two additional members to be appointed to the Hotel Board, i.e. one for the Coloureds and one for the Indians. During the discussion of that Bill, the hon. the Minister said that when the need had become greater, he would not hesitate to fill vacancies by appointing more non-Whites. As a result of the establishment of the Hotel Board in 1965, the hotel industry has developed into one of the best in the world, not only as far as catering is concerned, but also as far as service is concerned.

The Department of Tourism takes positive steps to serve as an information bureau and liaison service for the hotel industry. Each year the department publishes a brochure containing a list of hotels registered with the Hotel Board. This brochure is distributed both internally and externally. It is issued in four languages, namely Afrikaans, English, German and French. It contains information about hotels as well as information about caravan parks, camping sites, holiday flats and game and nature reserves.

The Department of Tourism also co-operates with other bodies when it comes to providing amenities for tourists. The Department of Tourism also co-operates with the Department of Planning and the local authorities in this regard. We also have the development and establishment of recreation facilities and holiday resorts for all our population groups. All these things are done by the Department of Tourism for the sale of the effective realization, development and utilization of the tourist potential of the country.

Mr. Chairman, every year the hon. member for Alberton makes a very interesting speech on tourism in this House. I have never actually known the reason why, but probably it is because they make various colours of paint in his constituency.

Last year when the hon. the Minister entered this debate, he said that it was so pleasant that he was able to take a short political vacation while the debate was in progress. I am afraid that we shall have to bring in a little politics today. The hon. member for Kimberley South has already referred to the negative effect which the PRP has on tourism in South Africa. Is it not a terrible disgrace that we heard so little from the official Opposition today and last night during the discussion of this Vote? All we had was the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North and he made a speech on the Railways. Is it not a sign of the bankruptcy of that party? What is the task and function of an Opposition? After all, in the first instance it is to have an alternative policy, but that they do not have. In the second instance it is to act as censor of the action of the Government, of its Ministers and of its Government departments. Even that, however, we do not hear. I do not want to allege here that if hon. members have nothing to say, they must say it. Why should they, however, sit here like wooden effigies and why can they not say that the department has done good work? I cannot understand it. Now it is too late for them, because I am the last speaker.

The hon. the Minister has very strong powers of persuasion. That is why I want to make this request of him today: I want to ask the hon. the Minister … [Interjections.] No, I am finished with those hon. members now and I want to talk to the Transvalers. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to use his powers of persuasion on the hon. the Leader of the House so that we Transvalers can go on a tour. We want to tour back to our homeland. We have had enough of the dampness of the Cape. The hon. colleagues who will remain behind, the NPs UPs and others, are also very welcome to come and enjoy the sunshine up in the Transvaal.

The hon. member for Simonstown made a very true statement. He said: “The tourist must meet the people of South Africa.” I agree with him whole-heartedly. Mr. Chairman, imagine if we had to take the people from abroad to the Bushveld where they can sit around to a hardwood fire. Next to one there is a simmering pot of mealie-pap. There is a ploughshare on the coals and round the edge one has some juicy “vetdermpie” with impala liver in the middle and over it sliced onion for flavour. While one stirs the mealiepap and turns the liver with one hand one has a bottle of Groot Constantia’s product in the other just to prove that one has no animosity for the Cape. Mr. Chairman, can you imagine what effect a film, brochure or introduction like this would have? It would sketch a true Bushveld picture. When the wind blows cold between your shoulder blades, and you huddle into your old army coat to ward it off a little while you warm yourself before the fire. That is real touring! This is how one can introduce tourists to South Africa. I am so hungry for that impala liver now that I have quite lost the thread of my speech!

Last year the hon. member for Alberton made a speech here about the training of tour guides. I notice on page 14 of the report of the department that there was a meeting in November last year, under the direction of the department, of tour guides and tour leaders from 16 regions. A committee was appointed to draw up a draft constitution and a code of conduct. On 7 February this year a South African Tour Guide Association was founded and at the moment there are negotiations under way on the training of such tour guides.

I should like to ask the department to also use its influence to ensure that this course is not only to be offered on a full-time basis at colleges, but that it will also be offered by means of correspondence. In this way will not only those in the larger centres have the advantage of training, but those in the rural areas who want to take such a course, will also have an opportunity to do so. There is, however, one proviso. A student who obtains a diploma by correspondence, may not receive a diploma before he has undergone a practical test. Hon. members can understand why this proviso is necessary. Someone may pass the course, but after that it may be established that he stutters so badly that he cannot express himself. One may also possibly discover afterwards that the hon. member for Pinelands took the course. One should first take him on a tour in order to make sure that he would not take all the tourists straight to Soweto. The tourist industry is becoming more and more sophisticated and is relying more and more on the services of professional guides and tour leaders. I remember very well, when I was taking a bus tour through the Alps a few years ago, how the bus broke down. We sat there for hours until another bus arrived, but not a single man on that tour was bored during that waiting period for we had a very attractive tour guide from Paris. I can assure hon. members that not one of us was bored for a moment. The time simply flew past, because she knew exactly what we needed. [Interjections.] I must say, however, that one cannot satisfy all the people all the time, because I received the impression that she was not popular amongst the ladies in the company.

Finally I should like to ask the hon. the Minister and the department to try to co-operate as closely as possible with the homeland Governments in respect of tourism. The need for Black people to have holidays and go on tours just as the Whites do in South Africa is becoming ever greater. Take the Black people who work in our White cities. They return to the homelands from time to time. At the moment they return primarily to visit their families. As their salaries and standard of living improves, however, we can be sure that these Black people will also feel a need to have a holiday in the homelands as the Whites do. I believe that the Zululand coast, Port St. Johns and the Wild Coast of Transkeilend themselves ideally to the creation of such facilities. It is a fact that there are not enough recreational amenities and facilities in White South Africa for Blacks, Coloureds and Asians. I believe that this is something which also requires attention.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to thank members of the Committee for their very interesting contribution to this very constructive discussion we have had today. It is true, as was said by the hon. member who has just sat down, that the Opposition did not make many speeches, but the speeches they did make were really constructive and showed an interest in the success of South Africa’s tourist effort. We appreciate the fact that they realize how very important the Department of Tourism is and what its work can mean for South Africa. I am glad to be able to give the Opposition a testimonial, because their conduct is also a testimonial for the officials of the Department of Tourism, people who are fired with enthusiasm, people with knowledge and expertise who do everything in their power to boost South Africa’s image as a tourist destination all over the world and also to encourage South Africans themselves to get to know their country better and to make better use of the wonderful opportunities which South Africa offers the traveller. For this I thank them sincerely. I just want to assure all members on both sides of the House that the Department of Tourism with its agencies will always and consistently endeavour to sell South Africa to the whole wide world as a tourist destination.

I should now like to discuss the specific contributions made by the various members who took part in the debate. For the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North I have a special word of thanks. It must be unprecedented in this Parliament for a chief spokesman of the Opposition to begin his speech with a plea to the Treasury to make more money available to a department.

Don’t get carried away.

I appreciate that more than words can express. I know the Minister is a controversial figure, but I take the hon. member’s plea as a fine testimony to the non-controversial department which I have the privilege to administer. The hon. member suggested that we should work more closely with the Department of Transport in order to see what can be done to lower the cost of travel especially to South Africa from abroad. I want to point out that there is already excellent liaison between the S.A. Railways and Airways, the Department of Tourism and the S.A. Tourist Corporation. We work in the closest co-operation, not only in South Africa, but also and especially in the many cities of the world where both Satour and the S.A. Airways have offices to promote travel. Meetings and discussions take place on a weekly basis, and therefore, with respect, I do not see the need for an advisory committee, because the liaison actually exists. As far as travel concessions are concerned, it is really a matter for the S.A. Railway Administration to decide. We can only ask for and perhaps suggest things. Of course, concessions are already made available by the S.A. Railways and the S.A. Airways. There are package deals and the Apex scheme, which, as hon. members know, is now run in both directions and is very popular and cheap. I feel that the Eurail type of concession will not work in South Africa because of factors like the frequency of scheduled traffic, which is minimal. Ours can never be compared with the vast transport networks we find in Europe and in the United States of America. Of course, the tourist can buy an air ticket with a favourable turn about fare to Cape Town, which allows him to travel by air to all parts of South Africa. I can say that the Railways are giving this matter their attention and during the constant liaison between us we are always exploring other possibilities. I want to thank him very much indeed for his alertness in regard to this matter and for his suggestions.

*My hon. friend, the hon. member for Fauresmith, paid tribute to a remarkable man. This is Mr. Theo Owen, the director of Satour. He served in that capacity for many years and he is known in the tourist industry all over the world. He has greatly influenced our tourist industry and the success which the Department of Tourism has achieved in respect of foreign tourism. I want to associate myself with the tribute paid to Mr. Owen by the hon. member for Fauresmith. I want to wish him every success in his retirement and I hope that it will still be possible for the Department of Tourism to make use of his extraordinary knowledge and skill in matters in which he has specialized.

The hon. member for Fauresmith also rendered the House a service by drawing attention to the brilliant work done by the Department of Tourism through Satour in counteracting the unfavourable effect of last year’s riots on the tourist industry. Other departments have moved mountains, but we are proud of the fact that we have been able to contribute our share in our own sphere as well. As the hon. member pointed out, our first step was a very courageous one, a step which my Jewish friends would describe as one with a great deal of chutzpah. We immediately redoubled our efforts to advertise South Africa in the tourist industry abroad and to introduce this country as a destination. We went to greater trouble than ever before to invite people to come to South Africa. We invited the most important editors and columnists in the travel media abroad to visit South Africa as our guests. They were able to come here, to examine matters for themselves and to make their own evaluations. This resulted in very favourable and precious publicity for South Africa in media of this kind abroad. Representatives of Satour redoubled their efforts and zeal in visiting all the tourist agencies with which we co-operate in order to convince them that South Africa was still an attractive and a safe tourist destination. We organized a travel workshop for all of Europe in Paris in September last year and we also appeared prominently at the International American Tourist Organization Congress in New Orleans. All these things did credit to South Africa and helped to bring its attractions to the attention of the world.

The S.A. Tourist Corporation, in co-operation with the S.A. Airways, began an ambitious advertising campaign in the European as well as the American markets. This was done during the first three months of this year. We launched a campaign at a considerable cost, for example, by placing advertisements in all the big newspapers and in all the most important financial and travel magazines. The reports we are receiving indicate that the advertisements have succeeded in attracting attention and have helped to restore confidence in South Africa as a tourist country. I am glad to be able to say that as a direct result of our tireless efforts, confidence is rapidly being restored in South Africa as a tourist destination. It is also encouraging to see that the number of inquiries by potential tourists as well as the reservations are rapidly returning to normal.

The hon. member for Randburg also made a very interesting contribution. He addressed a number of requests to us, for example, that it should be made cheaper to come to South Africa for a holiday. His main argument was a valid one, i.e. that it costs a great deal of money to get to South Africa. To fly to South Africa—in the old days people travelled by boat, but this era is now drawing to a close—is very expensive. This deters many people from coming here. Then he went on to suggest that we make the security rand available to foreign tourists. In other words, he proposed that we introduce a kind of tourist rand. I want to tell him at once that this is an interesting proposal, but that it is unfortunately not acceptable.

The security rand is a very limited phenomenon, because it is only valid between one foreigner and another and is not available to South Africans. We are not prepared to sell more cheaply a product which already has a good market, thereby detracting from the prestige of our currency. I am also quite sure that the hon. member will get the same reply from the Department of Finance. There is no need for us to dilute the profits we make from tourism, because we are already drawing tourists on a truly remarkable scale. I do not believe that one necessarily increases the value of a product by lowering the price. I think we are entitled to sell a good product at a price it is worth.

Travelling expenses are not the only costs incurred by a tourist when he visits South Africa. There is also the cost of his accommodation as well as the services he enjoys, his travelling expenses inside the country and the purchases he makes. If one considers all these factors, one comes to the legitimate conclusion that South Africa is one of the cheapest long-distance tourist destinations in the world. For Americans, for example, a visit to South Africa is cheaper than a visit to the Middle East, Europe or the Far East. The reason for this—and here I want to pay tribute to the hotel industry in South Africa—is that our hotels are not only among the best, but also among the cheapest in the world.

In January this year, an article appeared in the London Financial Times in which hotel costs in 60 tourist destinations on all six continents of the world were analysed. I am very proud to be able to say that South Africa had the lowest hotel costs of all 60 countries. Let me add at once that the low cost does not have any adverse effect on the quality of the service enjoyed by tourists in our hotels. The hotels in South Africa are graded and meet the needs of the man who wants the greatest luxury as well as those of the man who expects a simple, but thorough, clean and efficient service. I therefore think that the premise from which the hon. member proceeded in his argument was not quite valid. As far as tourists from England are concerned, South Africa will never be able to compete with the continent of Europe. England and Europe are so close to each other that we really cannot compete with Europe. As far as long-distance destinations are concerned, however, South Africa is still one of the cheapest countries in the world. Therefore it is not necessary to play around with our currency in order to stimulate the industry.

Now I come to the hon. member for Bethlehem. He spoke of the contribution that can be made by the private sector to encourage tourism in South Africa. I do want to say that he should not be too critical of the private sector. They are doing very good work. In fact, the success of the Department of Tourism is due to the fact that it concentrates liaison with the private sector and on stimulating the private sector to advertise South Africa. Our travel agents, tour operators and hotel industry are doing excellent work in introducing South Africa to people inside as well as outside the country and in attracting people. We are very grateful for the work they do in this respect.

It is true, of course, that more can be done to make South Africa attractive, as the hon. member said. As far as the advertising and creation of new attractions are concerned, however, the department is somewhat hampered by our present financial circumstances. As my hon. friend may remember, we were ready two years ago to introduce a Bill designed to establish a tourist development corporation in South Africa, which would have made capital available to people who wanted to develop attractions on a regional basis in South Africa. However, we needed an initial capital outlay of R1 million for this project, and in the present circumstances it is simply not possible to make that money available. However, the idea is still alive, and as soon as conditions improve, we shall make another attempt to put it into practice. In the meanwhile we are trying, as the hon. member also proposed, to promote the inland attractions of South Africa by means of the actions committees we have created in ten regions in South Africa. Their work is becoming more and more important, for although our tourist figure in 1976 showed a drop of 90 000 as against the previous year, there was another interesting phenomenon which was mentioned by one of my other hon. friends in this House, namely that the number of tourists from South Africa who went abroad decreased by 142 000 last year, so that we actually gained 50 000 tourists as against 1975.

Those tourists now have to spend their holidays and their money in South Africa, and therefore I think that the regional action organizations have a more important role than ever before in spreading this advantage to South Africa over the largest possible area so that all regions, towns and cities may share in it.

The hon. member for Bethlehem also spoke of the conservation of our attractions and our scenery. This is the task of the Department of Planning. They have informed that they are actively working on this idea of the hon. member for Bethlehem. The Department of Planning appointed a commission this year to place the conservation of Table Mountain on a scientific and sound financial footing. The Magaliesberg in the Transvaal has already been declared a conservation resort. The lagoons, especially along the southern Cape coast, have also been declared protected areas by the Department of Planning. This work is continuing. The Deputy Minister of Planning has informed me that they have decided on their own initiative to have the closest liaison with the Department of Tourism in the future so that we may decide together where conservation work needs to be done and where our priorities should lie. I therefore want to thank the hon. member for his proposal. It evoked immediate reaction.

The hon. member for Oudtshoorn referred to the work of Satour. They are indeed doing remarkable work. In 1975, the tourist industry had an absolute record year. When the Department of Tourism was established, we only had approximately 150 000 to 200 000 tourists a year. In the short period of the department’s existence, that figure has risen to between 600 000 and 700 000 tourists a year. It is true that the tourist figure dropped by 90 000 last year, but we must remember that in spite of the problems of last year, the world depression, which took on serious proportions, and the internal trouble we had as a result of the riots, 1976 was still the second best tourist year in the history of South Africa. This is a magnificent achievement. The credit for this should, to a large extent, be given to the good work done by Satour.

I have already said that 142 000 South Africans who normally go overseas for their holidays stayed at home last year. For South Africa this means a probable saving of R70 million, as indicated by the hon. member to my right. In addition, the smaller number of tourists who visited South Africa spent more money in this country, according to the calculations of the Economic Bureau of the University of Stellenbosch. The large number of tourists, more than 700 000, who visited South Africa in 1975, spent R274 million here, while last year’s tourists—90 000 down on the year before—spent R5 million more, i.e. R279 million in South Africa. Therefore tourism made an enormous contribution to South Africa’s balance of payments last year.

The hon. member for Kimberley South also spoke of the drop in the number of tourists. What I have just said, namely that our tourism is still making a major contribution to the solution of our balance of payments problem, that we earned more money from tourism last year and that we probably saved R70 million because some of our people stayed at home, applies to him as well.

†I now come to the hon. member for Simonstown. He asked me a lot of questions. He also referred to the cost of travelling to South Africa. I think he will agree that the answer which I gave to the hon. member for Randburg in this connection also applies to him. He specifically referred to the fact that we should do more to encourage tourism from South Africa. About 20 months ago the Secretary for Tourism and I visited South America. We did not visit the Argentine, but made contact with them while we were in Brazil, and we have since opened an office in the Argentine. The result is quite spectacular; so the hon. member has a point when he says that there is a lot of tourist potential in South America. In the first three months of this year the number of tourists from the Argentine to South Africa increased by 317%, compared with the first three months of the previous year. I think this is a spectacular development. Percentages can mean many things; so I would like to mention that physically—I am talking about the number of bodies—the tourists from South America visiting South Africa this year is exceeding 600 per month. I believe there is a tremendous potential in this direction, especially from Brazil. The difficulty with Brazil is that they have strict currency control at the moment and that it is therefore very difficult for tourists to travel to long-distance destinations like South Africa. But we hope that position will improve, and the moment it becomes possible for them to come here, we shall do our best to advertise South Africa there.

The department must be prepared to spend a lot of money to bring influential opinion-formers out to South Africa.

That is one of the recognized and established methods of the Department of Tourism, to bring opinion-formers, newspaper editors, tourist operators and travel agents to South Africa at our expense to come and see South Africa and then to go back and to advertise what they have seen. That will happen the moment the field is open to us.

The hon. member also asked that we should do more in regard to the USA and asked us to co-operate with other African States like Kenya. That is not easy, however, for reasons that I need not enlarge upon at the moment. But we have an organization which is becoming more and more active and more and more successful, i.e. Sartoc, an organization in which we, in co-operation with the African States who are ready to work with us, advertise not only South Africa, but the whole of Southern Africa. The suggestions which the hon. member made about Kenya, will not be applied to Kenya only, but also and more intensively to the larger group of African countries in Sartoc. I agree that we can do more in regard to the USA, but at the moment we are doing everything we possibly can do financially. Nevertheless, the USA is today the third largest source of tourists for the Republic of South Africa. Rhodesia is first, the UK is second and then comes the USA. It is, of course, a country with vast potential, and I agree and we should try to do even better than we are doing at the moment.

The hon. member also referred to liquor, but it is very difficult for me to talk about that extensively, because it does not fall under the Department of Tourism. It is actually a matter for the hon. the Minister of Justice. I want to assure him, however, that we are in constant touch with the hon. the Minister and the departments concerned, in order to try to make South Africa more attractive to tourists also in so far as liquor outlets are concerned. We also endeavour to assist the hotel industry and the restaurant industry with problems they may be experiencing.

The same applies to the issue of deep-sea harbours. Our department is not directly concerned with this matter, but I know that angling is an important tourist attraction, and the hon. member can be assured that we are in touch with the department concerned to see what can be done in order to improve the situation. As a practical measure I want to suggest that the hon. member should perhaps next year, raise the interests of the tourist industry when discussing the Votes of my colleagues concerned. I shall be most grateful for whatever support I can get from such an objective quarter as the hon. member for Simonstown.

*The hon. member for Pretoria East suggested that we make a film about the Bushveld and its attractions. I fully agree with the hon. member and I hope that when we make another one of our magnificent films to be distributed all over the world, a sequence will be devoted to the attractions of that area as well as the appetizing activities at a South African braaivleis.

The hon. member also advocated the creation of a tourist guide organization in South Africa. In my opinion, few matters are more urgently necessary than this. Strange things happen with certain tourist guides in South Africa. Some of these people are drawn from our universities and make use of this opportunity—we are aware of this—to denigrate South Africa. Then there are other people who do strange things in their ignorance. I do not know how many hon. members saw on television a few months ago what a certain tourist guide did on a bus in Johannesburg. We cannot allow this kind of thing. It is absolutely essential that we organize these things and keep them on a proper level. I can assure the hon. member for Pretoria East that the legislation for the establishment of such an organization has already been drawn up. We could have introduced it during the present session. Unfortunately there was no time for this and the programme was of such a nature that the Bill could not be fitted in anywhere, also because it was received at a rather late stage. As far as the department is concerned, however, that Bill will enjoy priority during the next session.

I hope I have replied to the speeches of all hon. members. The only one who remains is the hon. member for Alberton. This hon. member made a valuable contribution on hotels in South Africa, as well as on the Hotel Board. Like the hon. member, I have very great appreciation for the work done by the Hotel Board. We are now going to enlarge the Hotel Board through the appointment of an Indian as well as a Coloured representative. This is being done by way of recognizing the fact that those two population groups also play a major part in our hotel industry. Not only do they supply a large part of the labour force of the hotel industry, but there are already 50 hotels catering exclusively for non-Whites. Furthermore, there are 40 international hotels in South Africa. In my opinion, therefore, it is right that their interests should be represented on the Hotel Board.

The Hotel Board is doing excellent work in maintaining the quality of our hotels and ensuring that reasonable tariffs are charged. I am particularly grateful for the training to which the hon. member referred, the training of people employed in the hotel industry, which is designed to turn them into experts so that people from South Africa and abroad who visit our hotels may enjoy only the best. The new scheme of in-service training—something which has just been launched—is already making the hotel industry more efficient in the present economic climate. Important savings and an improvement in the quality of service are being brought about in this way. I am also grateful for the fact that the Hotel Board is now able, thanks to the legislation passed this year, to help improve the hotel industries of our neighbouring states. This is in our own interest, not only with a view to better relations, but also for the sake of promoting tourism, that hotels in our neighbouring states should provide service of a high quality.

These, then, are the matters I wanted to discuss. I want to thank hon. members once again for their fine contributions. Finally, there is another very important matter concerning which I should like to make a brief statement.

Since the beginning of this decade, and especially since 1974, the necessity for protecting the tourist as a consumer has been increasingly highlighted. In a number of important overseas tourist countries, the authorities have already taken steps to ensure that proper and sufficient guarantees are provided to safeguard the interests of the tourist.

In order to maintain the confidence of the travelling public, the Department of Tourism made an in-depth study some time ago of Government legislation in other countries relating to travel arrangements, licensing of travel agents, travel protection measures, regulations affecting the financial stability of travel agents and tour operators, and trade definition laws relating to misleading descriptions of package tours.

As far as I know, the majority of our travel agents and travel organizers try to do business on a sound basis. The Association of South African Travel Agents (Asata) has already proceeded to the introduction of a compulsory scheme of guarantees for its members. Unfortunately, not all travel agents and tour operators are members of Asata, so they are not yet all subject to a compulsory scheme of guarantees.

While we have great appreciation for what Asata has hitherto achieved in providing guarantees for its members, it is nevertheless an open question whether the amount of the guarantee—R25 000 for wholesale and R10 000 for retail members—is at all sufficient for the protection of the tourist in all cases and under all circumstances. It is particularly important that tour operators, too, should all be integrated into such a scheme, and I trust that the S.A. Tour and Safari Association and other associations will soon reach finality in this connection as well.

Recent events in Johannesburg, which may cause one, and even two, companies to be sequestrated, have now forced me to take a serious look at this question of consumer protection. The time has now come for the tourist industry in South Africa in all its facets to provide the necessary security to ensure that clients will not be prejudiced and will not suffer any losses. By the end of this year, we shall announce to other tourist organizations abroad which South African enterprises in the tourist industry have in fact been integrated into a scheme providing guarantees, and foreign concerns will be warned that any further dealings with firms not involved in this scheme will be at their own risk. If these arrangements fail to have the desired effect, the Government will have to give serious consideration to taking immediate action and introducing compulsory registration and guarantees. However, we do not intend to do this merely for the sake of control. For this reason, the industry is now being given a final opportunity to rectify the position itself on a satisfactory basis. At the present stage of our foreign tourist marketing, we cannot afford visitors to our country, firstly, not to receive the services for which they have paid and, secondly, not to undertake the tours to which they have looked forward. Our tourist industry must be a very sound one at all times and must be run on a professional basis.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No. 37 and S.W.A. Vote No. 23.— “Public Works”:

Mr. Chairman, we deal this morning with one of the largest Votes. I think the amount which is voted for the Minister of Public Works in terms of the budget is the fourth or fifth highest of any department. Therefore we are dealing with a most important Vote. An analysis of the summary which appears on page 37-1 of the Estimates of Expenditure shows that there is an increase of 20% in the amount voted for salaries and wages this year and that there is an increase of 55% in the amount voted as “subsidies, financial assistance, contributions and grants-in-aid”. I want to ask the hon. the Minister, specifically regarding this, about the increase in the amount which is to be voted to various municipalities, namely from R3,5 million to R6 million, an increase of R2,5 million, which represents an increase of something like 80%. I wonder if the hon. the Minister can give us details of precisely what he is going to do with this R6 million, which local authorities are going to receive that amount and why they are receiving this large increase.

Something which is symptomatic of everything which is happening in the country today, is the 40% increase in the amount voted for “rent, rates, electricity, etc.”. This is an indication of what the economy of the country is facing today. It illustrates how these escalating costs are beyond the control of the ordinary man, and I do believe the Government can participate in helping to keep down these costs.

Under “general repair services” there is an increase of 20%, a tremendous increase from R11 million to R13 million. Again, this is symptomatic of the state of the economy.

When we come to the last item, namely “accommodation, structures and engineering services”, there is an increase from R121 million last year to R153 million this year, which is a tremendous increase. It is true that the hon. the Minister has given us a memorandum which sets out precisely how he is going to spend this, but I want to ask him about two matters in particular and request him to give further details. Under the heading “Chanceries and diplomatic residential accommodation (representatives of the Republic in foreign countries)” on p. 36 of W.P.E—’77 are various amounts which are asked for chanceries and residences in various countries. Some of these figures are astronomical, but we are not aware of the circumstances in these foreign countries, so I cannot comment on those. However, there is one which does come to mind and on which I believe this Committee deserves an explanation from the hon. the Minister. I refer to an amount of R800 000 of a total anticipated expenditure of R1 million for the “conversion of and additions to a property to serve as a chancery, and provision of residential accommodation in Umtata”. We are aware of building costs in South Africa and I do not believe that they are much higher in Umtata. This is not in respect of the purchase of the property, but simply in respect of alterations and conversions. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister can justify such a massive expenditure on that property in Umtata? Secondly, on page 40 of the White Paper (W.P.E.—’77) under the heading “Building complexes, office blocks and miscellaneous services” we are being asked to vote an amount of R30 000 in respect of the building of six flats for Deputy Ministers. I see that the estimated total cost is R450 000. R450 000 is being set aside for six flats. This means approximately R85 000 per flat. Can that be justified?

No, man, where did you learn your arithmetic?

I beg your pardon, it should be R75 000. The hon. member is quite correct. Can one spend R75 000 on a flat? Can that be justified? I also want to ask the hon. the Minister what is going to happen to those flats? If they are going to be occupied by Deputy Ministers, is the report we saw in this Daily News correct in that those hon. Deputy Ministers are going to occupy those flats free of rental? Are they going to occupy them rent-free?

No.

The hon. the Minister says “no”. What sort of rental will they pay for those flats?

I will answer you on that.

The hon. the Minister says he will answer me. Before he answers me, I must just remind him that in the estimates that we have the salary of one hon. Deputy Minister—I am not going to say which Deputy Minister because it would not be fair to embarrass the individual—is given as R17 160. To that is added a reimbursive allowance of R2 723 which is tax free. The important thing as far as the hon. the Minister is concerned, however, is that to this is added a tax-free allowance, in lieu of official residence, of R3 300. The question is whether the hon. the Minister will charge that hon. Deputy Minister R3 300 in respect of rental for that flat. If he does not, it does not become an economical proposition and it becomes a further subsidy to the hon. the Deputy Minister. I believe that the hon. the Minister will have to give us an explanation on that.

These instances that I have quoted enhance and strengthen the plea which we have made over the years for a Select Committee on Public Works so that we can have an opportunity, as a Select Committee, consisting of all parties in this House, to go through these estimates and to question the hon. the Minister and the department. There are many other questions that arise from these estimates for which we do not have the time to debate the matter, bearing in mind that a total allocation of 1½ hours is made for this debate. Only 1½ hours is set aside to discuss the spending of this tremendous amount of money and the great number of queries that arise therefrom. I plead again today with the hon. the Minister to think again about the establishing of a Select Committee. In the case of the Select Committee on Irrigation Matters there has been a change of heart in the Department of Water Affairs. All the White Papers on water affairs which are tabled in this House, are submitted to that Select Committee. The work is done in that Select Committee instead of being done here and instead of being published in newspapers. I believe that it would be advantageous to this hon. Minister as well if we could have a Select Committee on Public Works so that we could discuss these matters in the calm atmosphere of a Select Committee.

I want to plead today for the small man in the building industry. This hon. Minister has the responsibility of looking after the building industry. I see that he is asking for another R3 000 to investigate the stabilization of the building and construction industry. I do not have to tell him or this Committee of the parlous state in which the building industry today finds itself. The picture is one of a sick industry. There is unemployment—although we do not know how much—in that industry. There are a number of contractors who are going under and there again the statistics are not available to indicate precisely how many are going under. However, the recession which is felt throughout the country is more apparent in the building industry than any other sector which I know. Conditions are going to worsen. They are going to worsen for the larger organizations because of the pruning back of Government and local authority expenditure. The small contractors are feeling the pinch. The building societies are going to have an estimated R500 million less money available to lend to prospective home owners this year. The small contractors depend on the building of those homes. They depend on the private owner who is building as a result of a building society loan. At the same time there is a tremendous shortage of adequate housing for all groups, the Whites and the non-White groups. There is a shortage of housing, and I believe that this hon. Minister has the opportunity of doing something to stabilize this industry by trying to persuade his colleagues in the Cabinet, particularly the hon. the Minister of Community Development, to make more money available for sub-economic and economic houses for all sectors of the population. I believe that this would have more than a mere politico-socio-economic significance in South Africa. It must also be considered of strategic importance. The hon. the Minister of Defence has just come in. Internal security and internal peace and quiet are essential, and if these people have work and homes we will, in fact, have peace and quiet in South Africa. Work can be granted by making possible the building of more houses.

In that way the unemployment situation can be alleviated. At the same time the housing shortage will also be alleviated. Again I want to plead with the hon. the Minister to avoid what has happened recently with many of the housing developments on the Cape Flats, for instance, where the large contractors are being given the work. I believe that the hon. the Minister has to have the work apportioned to the smaller men. My plea today is for the smaller men who keep the industry going. Whether one is dealing with small contractors or large contractors, the employment situation is exactly the same. The same number of people are required to do the work. There is a further aspect involved, however. This need not be inflationary. If the money is obtained in the right quarters, this need not be inflationary. It is not going to affect our balance of payments, because the provision of low-cost houses does not require the importation of materials. Those are all produced locally. I believe that the hon. the Minister and his colleagues have to take a look at this matter. He must ensure that this is undertaken in the areas where there is the greatest unemployment and where high levels of skill are not required. Above all, this should be labour-intensive. He must please use the small contractors for this purpose, however, I am told that it has been calculated that R1 million spent on low-cost housing provides the equivalent of 250 man-years of employment, but that the same R1 million spent in large construction enterprises, for instance in the construction of roads, gives the equivalent of only 100 man-years of employment. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I really do not know why the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South has to raise one’s blood pressure at this stage of the session by saying such a lot of unsavoury things. He fastened upon the question of flats for Deputy Ministers to provide him with a basis for his arguments. He used it as a basis for an extremely valid argument. We all have a responsibility in this House. That hon. member should not allow the frustrations of opposition to manifest themselves even in a Vote like Public Works.

Come back to the Vote.

Now he wants me to come back to the Vote, because he knows what nonsense he has been talking here with regard to Deputy Ministers, while he knows that their remuneration is only equal to that of men in the middle-junior group in top management in the private sector. Therefore I do not know why he should talk such nonsense in an otherwise uncontroversial Vote. He says he wants time to talk about these things and that he wants a Select Committee where he can talk about these things. The Opposition is in a position to negotiate time for debates, but what has our experience been lately? They try to draw out their time to cover all the Votes, unlike a sensible Opposition before 1948, which selected specific Votes on which to tackle the Government. Today they only want to fire a few loose rounds over all the Votes, and every time there is the complaint that they do not have enough time to discuss everything. So the hon. member roves around. He says this hon. Minister should now play Father Christmas by handing out large contracts to the small contractors on the Cape Flats, at Mitchell’s Plain. If the hon. member does not have a contribution to make, he should rather not participate in this debate. That would be better than talking such a lot of nonsense here. I want to express my regret at having had to waste so much time on this hon. member who does not merit it.

This year I want to touch on a subject which is actually a technical one, but I shall not go into the technicalities, because I believe it would not be fair towards the hon. the Minister. I cannot expect him to have all the details at his fingertips. I am referring in particular to the contract adjustment provisions published under the auspices of the Building Industry Advisory Committee and commonly known as the Haylett formula. To explain briefly, this formula was created to develop a base on which the escalation of costs of a building project can be adjusted more or less automatically as against the old method of a firm tender price or of the “proven cost” method of recovery for price fluctuations.

This formula has been in operation for about a year now. I believe its growth pains and implications are slowly becoming apparent to the department. I do not want to go into the matter in depth, because this matter is so comprehensive that it is in any case impossible to do more than scratch the surface within our limited time. However, questions arise which inevitably lead one to certain conclusions. I want to refer to only two. I want to say, firstly, that the Government in general, and I believe the Department of Public Works in particular, does not enjoy the full benefits of the keener competition in the building industry today as a result of the application of this Haylett formula, and, secondly, that the private sector, which had no part and no say in the creation of this formula, is obliged, to its disadvantage, to accept the formula as an integral part of its tenders.

Not only has the Government committed itself to the application of the formula, but it has also been made applicable to the private sector. Bifsa, the Building Industry Federation, compels its members to apply this formula to all tenders for new contracts. The result is that no building contractor is authorized to agree with the developer on a fixed price for a project or for the escalation of costs according to the “proven costs” method. One may rightly ask what is going to happen now and which steps will be taken against such a contractor if he should enter into a private agreement. Briefly speaking, the formula clause operates as follows, and I want to quote from the official handbook with regard to this matter—

And then finally—

In other words, except for the initial tender price, this formula now effectively removes all competition in the building industry because the builder is now insured against all rising costs. The risk, which used to be shared between the contractor and the client, has now been placed on the client alone. I concede that the initial tender price is probably lower now, but the developer is really not able to fix his final price within reasonable limits to determine exactly what the economic viability of one of his projects is. I simply cannot see how the Government can budget within reasonable estimates for its own projects.

Take for instance the indexes reflecting the price fluctuation on material content. I do not want to query the index. Unfortunately one does not know on how wide a basis the data for it has been collected. After all, the index is primarily based on the asking price for that material.

In other words, 90% of the full price increase is automatically awarded to the contractor. In practice, the successful contractor buys his material for, say, 12 months at a fixed price which is considerably lower than the asking price furnished to the Bureau for Statistics. The material is then delivered over a period of one year at the original agreed price. Meanwhile there are increases in the market price of the material and these are furnished to the Department of Statistics. The contractor is then allowed 90% of the market escalation on this material, while the material he uses has actually cost him no more than the original price. In this way, the withholding of claims certificates while waiting for price increases, which are often announced long beforehand, can lead to considerable manipulation. There are quite a few other factors giving rise to an unsound and inflationist increase. I cannot spell them out now. I only want to ask today that the department take a fresh look at the composition of the formula, and also at the question of whether the private sector cannot in the meanwhile be allowed to negotiate with the building industry, if need be on the old basis of proven costs. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Tygervallei devoted quite a portion of his speech to fight with the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South, who raised the question of the building of flats for Deputy Ministers. I think the hon. the Minister does owe us an explanation concerning this matter. There are a lot of flats available in Pretoria right now. I am not sure whether it has been necessary to build a new building at a stage when we are short of capital.

The other matter he has debated concerns the question of the price adjustment formula covering cost escalations during the course of a contract which the Tender Board and the department regard as fair. We are in a situation at the present time where the cost of building materials, labour, steel and cement is escalating. These costs are changing all the time. There is a danger that it will be difficult for hon. members in this House to give proper judgment on values which are submitted in the estimates. I shall try to make my argument more clear. An estimate may be decided upon which the department feels is reasonable for the erection of a building. However, when one applies a price adjustment escalation formula, the initial figure may very well not be the end figure. One might find that the estimated cost of a certain project would be put down as being R2 million, but that by the time it has all been paid for, R3 million or R3,5 million has been paid out, due to the fact that over the period of the contract, perhaps two or three years, a steady cost escalation of 10% per year has taken place. Thus we end up with a terrific figure. On many occasions in this Parliament we have had to pass additional estimates for various projects because of tremendously increased costs. If they had known at the beginning that that sort of money would have had to be paid out, they might well have decided that the project should not go ahead at all. There are many buildings being erected by various departments, buildings which I think are unnecessary at this stage. At the moment there is in South Africa an over-abundance of many types of accommodation. I do believe that Government departments should make use of what is already there rather than to erect new buildings.

Proceeding from where the hon. member for Tygervallei left off, I think it would be correct to welcome the new Secretary of the department. I believe this is Mr. Du Preez’s first Vote after taking over from Mr. Howard. I wish him well in his job and I wish him many years of happy service as Secretary of the department.

The first matter I want to raise with the hon. the Minister today has to do with the building of Coloured schools at Mitchell’s Plain. I have been advised that some of these schools are not in full use. There are many possible reasons for this, but I think I am correct in saying that one of the main reasons why the schools are not in use is that the population of Mitchell’s Plain is not yet large enough at this stage. There are just not enough children at Mitchell’s Plain to make full use of the schools that have been built. One then asks oneself why it has happened that schools have been built when the people are not there. I should like to guess. Perhaps the hon. the Minister will be able to tell me whether my guess is correct or not. My guess is that the reason for the empty schools is the lack of adequate transport, the absence of a railway line, which has kept the potential population of Mitchell’s Plain away. The point I am making is that, because of a lack of co-ordination, this hon. Minister’s department built schools which stand empty because another department has cut back on its budget. Surely, when one department cuts back on a railway line, it should keep in touch with other departments so that the other departments do not carry out certain work such as, in this case, erecting buildings until those buildings are required. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister what effort at co-ordination does take place. It seems quite extraordinary that we should lay out money before it is necessary to do so and at a time of critical capital shortages. I do not know whether the necessary machinery exists for the co-ordination of effort between the Department of Coloured, Rehoboth and Nama Relations, the Department of Public Works and the Railways Administration, as in this instance. If one aspect of a project is delayed, surely other aspects should not be proceeded with. Why were these schools built? Were they started before the cancellation of the Mitchell’s Plain railway line was announced, or what happened?

I do think the hon. the Minister owes us an explanation. It is obviously not this hon. Minister’s fault, but I do think he must give considerably more attention to the necessity for continuous consultation. Let me say in passing that the quality of the schools that have been built is very good. I think we can congratulate the department on the finished product. However, there is not much use in having a well built school when there is nobody to fill it.

Mr. Chairman, there is another matter I want to raise with the hon. the Minister. I have raised this matter with him before. It concerns the future of Marks Building across the road from us. As the House is no doubt aware—this matter has been discussed before—there has been considerable anxiety expressed by interested members of the public over the fact that a building of considerable architectural merit may disappear from the scene. Hon. members are also aware that the interior of the building does not conform to reasonable standards for a modern office building. I am sure the hon. the Minister will understand that, until the final plan for the building has been completed, the public’s concern will continue. I shall be grateful if the hon. the Minister will bring us up to date on the plans in this respect. I know that this has often been raised before, that it comes before us quite often, but I do think it would be useful just to reassure the public on what the plans are with the old Marks Building.

In studying the estimates I was interested to see that there is provision for a considerable increase in the amount of the fees to be paid to professional and technical private firms. It is an increase of nearly 40%. The 1976-’77 figure was R10 904 000 while the figure for 1977-’78 is R14 292 000. I am interested in this because we do not appear to be cutting down on the department’s own architectural, engineering or quantity surveying staff. Why then is there this large increase? It seems strange that this item should be so much larger unless we anticipate a greater output of work. We know that Government spending has been cut; so it seems a little extraordinary that there should be a greater output anticipated. 40% is a considerable increase when it comes to professional fees of this nature. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can enlighten us on this.

My next point has to do with schools that were damaged during the period of civil unrest of last year. Many of the damaged schools have not been repaired, although I understand that money has already been allocated for these repairs. The Department of Public Works is the body responsible for seeing that repairs are carried out once the money has been allocated. So I want to ask the hon. the Minister when these repairs are going to be carried out. I would have thought that at a time when there is a recession in the building industry and the industry is underemployed, repairs would have been carried out very speedily. But this does not appear to have been the case. Again I would like to ask the hon. the Minister to put us into the picture.

Finally I would like to say that it is always interesting to see how much money is being spent on behalf of other departments. Frequently the amount which is estimated for an item is not the total amount. For example, the Department of Defence has here, under the Vote of this hon. Minister another R46 million to be spent on military bases. This figure is up from R32 million. I think one should always note the estimates of this department when considering the total estimates of other departments. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I shall not speak for a full ten minutes. I only want to finish saying what I could not complete a short while ago because of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South. At the end of my previous speech I ask the hon. the Minister whether he could not consider allowing the private sector to negotiate with the building industry in the meanwhile, if need be on the old basis. I only feel that one should suggest a possible alternative which is worth investigating. Another request I want to address to the hon. the Minister is to allow an independent specialist body like the Stellenbosch Bureau for Economic Research, on the grounds of its specialized research and projection with regard to the building industry, to calculate the escalation in building costs, for instance every quarter. If the department could consider this matter in the meanwhile, we would welcome an opportunity to discuss the whole matter in depth next year.

I want to conclude by extending a welcome, from the Government side as well, to the new Secretary, Mr. Du Preez. The functions of his department extend over all the other departments and he can make them happy or unhappy with regard to their accommodation. From our side we want to wish him a fruitful term of service and to express the hope that he will be able to live in peace with his colleagues.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Orange Grove saw fit to elaborate on the gossip of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South about the flats for Deputy Ministers being built by the department. If these two hon. members had any knowledge of building costs and had discussed the matter with people outside Parliament, they would have had to concede in all fairness that R450 000 was not unreasonable for six three-to four-bedroomed flats. If only hon. members would have taken the trouble to find out, they would have learnt that this was rough terrain and if the preparation of the building site and the provision of services are included, this is not an exorbitant amount. Hon. members should tell us in all fairness whether they expect our hon. Deputy Ministers to live in hovel-like flats in which they have to receive foreign visitors. Because of the publicity given to the matter I happen to know—the hon. member for Orange Grove must tell me whether this is so—that two hon. members of the PRP bought themselves houses here in Cape Town for the duration of the Parliamentary session only. Each of those houses cost more than R200 000. The hon. member knows who those hon. members are and I can mention their names if he wants me to. These are the people who want to tell us that what is good enough for ordinary hon. members, is not good enough for our hon. Deputy Ministers. I think it is scandalous for hon. members to come to this House with arguments of that nature in order to discredit our hon. Deputy Ministers in that way.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South again displayed his ignorance …

May I ask the hon. member a question?

No, I do not have the time. [Interjections.] I am not at all afraid of any of the Opposition members.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South displayed his ignorance by speaking of the Department of Public Works having to see to economic houses and sub-economic houses. Surely the hon. member knows that every department determines its own priorities. The hon. member should also know that the Department of Community Development requests funds for housing and that they build the houses themselves. The Department of Public Works does not build any houses at all. In fact, only yesterday when we discussed the Community Development Vote, hon. members of the Opposition expressed appreciation towards the Department of Community Development for the fact that they were eliminating the tremendous housing backlog. Today the hon. member was nagging in the opposite direction.

We are all concerned about the increasing slump in the building industry, but it is unfortunately a fact that the building industry is very sensitive to any economic recession. It is usually this industry which is hit first and perhaps also hardest. As far as we are concerned, it affects not only the building contractors and the building workers, but also other related industries such as the steel manufacturers arid the stone quarries. Usually such a situation is a cause for concern to them too. However, it is not only to the people involved in the building industry that this is a cause for concern. I am sure—indeed we know that this is so—that it is a cause for concern to the Department of Public Works which shares the concern of the owners of building concerns about the slump in the building industry. The department is concerned about it because of its involvement with the industry. The department happens to be the building industry’s biggest client. It is also of vital importance to the department that the industry remain founded on a vigorous as well as a liquid basis. Particularly because of the department’s comprehensive building programme executed by private building contractors, a stable building industry is necessary for ensuring a constant flow of work and quality of workmanship.

In this slack period in the building industry voices have been raised about the accompanying unemployment, but I should like to indicate that the State, through the Department of Public Works, makes a major contribution to the stability still prevailing in the building industry today, despite the criticism expressed by the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South in this regard. On page 11 of the report the number of tenders per year exceeding R30 000 per tender over the past five years is given. I note that the year 1971-’72 produced 416 tenders to the value of R45 million. An increase is indicated because there were 439 tenders to the value of R105 million in the 1975-’76 financial year. I have also learnt that there were 538 tenders to the value of R117 million in the 1976-’77 financial year. It is also important to note that the department was involved in large building undertakings to the value of R1 255 million during the financial year which ended on 31 March 1976. This amount includes Posts and Telegraphs of course. This indicates that in spite of limited public funds, a constant flow of building work for the building industry is still being ensured. The fluctuation in the building industry remains one of the most difficult problems and surely the biggest. This is a problem which not only South Africa but the whole world has to contend with. The problem is to be found in the fact that the building industry is so sensitive to and so integrated with the economic conditions prevailing in the country. I regret that this, of course, is not a problem which the Government can handle on its own. The provincial and local authorities are part and parcel of this problem. Of course, the private sector, too, is involved in this problem to a large extent. No effective control whatsoever can be exercised over the activities of the private sector. The phenomenon of the building industry suddenly becoming active to an unprecedented extent during periods of economic revival, and reaching an absolute low just as suddenly during periods of economic recession, is something which gives rise to concern in the industry. We concede that these people do indeed have reason for concern. There is, however, also understanding for the problem if it is taken into account that during 1969—a boom period for the building industry—investment by the private sector in the building industry was 70,2% as against an investment of 29,8% in the building industry by the public sector. According to estimates the investment by the public sector will be 48% this year, while that of the private sector will be 52%.

It would appear, therefore, that the trend is that the public sector itself will do more than 50% of the investment within the next year.

This is a problem, however, which we have had in the past. What is more, it is a problem we still have to contend with. It is in all probability a problem we shall have to contend with in the future as well. In view of the fact that the Bureau for Economic Research at the University of Stellenbosch is presently investigating this trend in the building industry, we believe that the investigation, as well as the recommendations which will follow, will be instrumental in helping to solve this problem, perhaps not at once, but at some time in the future.

Mr. Chairman, it so happened that the Community Development Vote came up for discussion yesterday and a great deal was said about the kind of houses the citizens of South Africa are expected to build for themselves. It was quite rightly pointed out to the citizens of South Africa that in these times in which we are living it behoves the citizens of our nation at least to acquire less luxurious houses for themselves. I think that is quite correct. It is the kind of warning which should issue from this House. Having said that, I want to touch on another matter, however, that I believe that while Parliament has the right to make such an appeal to the nation, I believe that there is also an obligation on Parliament and especially on the Government to set the nation a healthy example in its activities with regard to buildings, offices, accommodation for ministries, etc.

A report appeared in the newspapers only a few days ago that a theatre complex for an amount of R47 million is being built in Pretoria. I do not want to take the matter any further, except to say that that indicates a tendency on the part of the Government which will not benefit South Africa in any way and definitely does not set the nation a healthy example. I can remember our having had rather heated debates with the predecessor of the hon. the Minister, the late Mr. Blaar Coetzee, on the type of house in which he lived and on the fact that he built himself a barbecue at a cost of R600. Those times have passed; it is water under the bridge. The fact is, however, that there are indeed examples in the Government structure and under the department with which we are now concerned, where the Government could have cut down. We had the example of the block of flats here in Cape Town. I would be the last person to say that our Cabinet Ministers, the leaders of the nation, and our Deputy Ministers should live in hovels or undistinguished houses. Decent accommodation should be furnished to these people, accommodation worthy of their position. That is the first requirement. But if we build a block of flats for six Deputy Ministers at a unit cost of R75 000, that is indeed a considerable sum of money that has to be expended. Then I ask myself: Cannot a house be found somewhere in South Africa worthy of the position of a Deputy Minister which costs a little less? We know that there are scores of luxury flats and houses to let in South Africa. Since there is a financial crisis today, why can we not rent decent houses for these people? I just cannot understand it. It bothers me.

Where?

I believe that such flats or houses can be found in Cape Town. If the Government does not want to rent houses, it can buy them, but I believe that if I had R50 000 to R60 000 to spend on a house, I should surely be able to buy a substantial house by Cape Town standards. Unfortunately I do not know Pretoria.

I examined the figures and I found it very interesting to see what is being done with the money in the Vote which is now before the House. The total amount budgeted for, is R149 million. I worked out the percentages of all the items for which this budget is going to be used. I want to state immediately those matters concerning the whole population, connected with the safety of every person in South Africa, and then I ask myself: What does the department of Public Works spend on the military cause, which is in my opinion of the greatest importance and which affects every person—Whites, Coloureds and Blacks—in South Africa? The percentage is 30%, according to my calculations. That sounds high, but the cause for which it is spent, is of such a nature that I would be the last to say that the figure is too high. The second figure, just as interesting, is the amount spent on our Police and on the judiciary. That includes prisons, etc. We spend 23% of the total amount on that. Again it is proportionately not too much. The next largest amount spent, is that with regard to Coloured education and Coloured training. Unfortunately I do not have last year’s figure—I did not have time for that—but the figure I have before me indicates that 15% of this is to be spent on buildings for Coloured schools, Coloured training facilities and Coloured universities. I think that is not a bad achievement either. I believe it is an improvement on last year.

For Indian education, Indian universities and Indian training it is 7%, which I believe is also an improvement on last year. Expenditure with regard to airports, garages and bridges to other states, i.e. expenditure as regards transport in South Africa, amounts to approximately 4%, which in my humble opinion is not too much.

Then 6% of the total expenditure is spent on office space; I do not have the slightest doubt—and I am sure it also applies to Pretoria—that there are scores of offices in South Africa today that are empty and unoccupied. I want to make two pleas to the hon. the Minister and that will be the end of my speech. He bears the responsibility for the Government buildings of South Africa. I ask him to see to it that the Government does not indulge in luxury activities. Secondly I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether we cannot spend a few million rand less by renting office space. I believe the office space is available. We can build again at a later stage when conditions have improved. While we are in financial difficulties at the moment, I believe, however, that the hon. the Minister should make a special effort to try and correct this matter as well.

Mr. Chairman, here and there the hon. member for Maitland said something with which I could agree. He did however say quite a few things with which I cannot agree. In the first place, we in this House are elected by the citizens of the Republic of South Africa. When people are appointed as Ministers and as Deputy Minister from our ranks, these people have an official status and they also have official responsibilities.

But I said …

Yes, that is right. If we think however that these people have official responsibilities, we must also remember that they are the show window of South Africa. We cannot allow our Ministers and Deputy Ministers to live in inferior houses.

Who wants that?

The hon. member does not object to hon. members who belong to the “Rich Men’s Club” buying houses for R200 000 to R250 000.

I said that was wrong.

The hon. member wants Deputy Ministers, people who represent the Government officially, to live in cheaper houses than those in which they are already living. If the price is R200 000, the difference is already R125 000 and that is only on one dwelling unit. In that respect I cannot agree with the hon. member.

The hon. member also said that we should build less. I do not want to be unfair and unreasonable towards the hon. member, but if I understood him correctly and he did indeed say that we should build less, I cannot agree with that. We should build to meet our needs. I do, however, agree that we should try to avoid luxury in general. In that respect I agree.

It is true that the building and construction industry is one of the most important sectors of our economic activities in South Africa. In the early ’seventies no less than 15% of the total gross domestic product was invested in the building and construction industry in South Africa. That gives us an idea of how important this industry is. Even last year when the industry in South Africa experienced an economic depression, 16% of the gross domestic product was spent on the building and construction industry. It is obvious that when such a high percentage of the gross domestic product is spent on an industry, one has to approach the industry very carefully and one has to investigate the industry from time to time to determine to which extent it has to adjust to the economic climate. One also has to determine to what extent it is necessary to make adjustments in the industry to deal with its problems and also the bottlenecks, issues and the financial problems. The industry has already made great progress. The National Building Regulations and Building Standards Bill was before this House recently and it was a very great step forward with regard to the greater standardization of building regulations and building standards.

I also want to speak highly of the good work being done by the SABS and the very good work done by this body in the past, and I also want to refer to the good work done by the Building Research Institute as a subdivision of the CSIR. I have on occasion in this Committee mentioned the establishment of the agrément board which does very good work in this respect. I think we should encourage these organizations to take a greater interest and to do more research in the building industry in South Africa with a view to placing more emphasis on functional aspects than on luxury. When I discussed this matter with a colleague this morning, he said to me that one should think in terms of paying architects who plan buildings a bonus for functional efficiency, in other words a bonus for the design of a building which meets all the requirements and all the needs, rather than a bonus for a building which has an attractive appearance. Perhaps that is something which the hon. the Minister, the department and research bodies could consider.

I now want to come to another aspect which I am worried about, and that is what I almost want to call a disease we are still suffering from in South Africa, viz. the tendency to allow existing buildings, which are still filling certain needs, to be demolished. About three years ago fine buildings were demolished in Vermeulen Street in Pretoria between Paul Kruger Street and Van der Walt Street. It pains one when these buildings are bulldozed to make way for larger buildings. But I wonder whether all the floor space is occupied at the moment. Therefore we should think of the future in our planning and we should try to project needs in such a way that we can use our buildings effectively.

There is also another matter which I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister. I do not want to criticize in the sense that I want to imply that the work was not done correctly, because anyone can make mistakes. Mistakes can creep in anywhere. No one is without fault. However, I read in the report of the Select Committee on Public Accounts of one case of an amount of R163 000 and another case of an amount of R40 000 which came up, apparently because of a lack of correlation or co-ordination between departments. I should just like to know whether the hon. the Minister and his department are considering this matter and I want to make a plea that we should guard more carefully than ever before against a repetition of such mistakes or problems in future. As I said, these are things which can normally happen. Therefore I do not want to criticize, except to say that we have to watch the question of correlation and co-ordination between departments with an eagle eye when buildings are being constructed.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Hercules will excuse me if I do not follow up on what he said. I believe the hon. the Minister will reply to his speech. All those who spoke before me in the discussion of this vote confined themselves to the financial aspects of this department. I should like to attend to another aspect of this department’s obligations, namely the restoration and preservation of buildings in the Republic that are historical monuments.

It is very easy to construct new buildings and see the results, but the restoration and preservation of old, run-down buildings is not only a very laborious task requiring a great deal of skill but is a task for which the department gets little or no thanks. I should therefore like to thank the Minister and his department for the praiseworthy work they are doing in this connection. The department does not restore and preserve merely for material gain but for a far more enriching purpose, viz. for the sake of the cultural value of certain buildings. The restoration and preservation of buildings of historical value does not serve the present generation only, or any specific population or political group, but extends across all borders. It fosters appreciation and pride in every inhabitant of the country and also in many visitors from abroad.

It is with great piety that I should like to mention the preservation and significance of the Castle in Cape Town in this connection. I could go into raptures about the colourfulness and historic value of our buildings, a great many of which are preserved. At the moment there are 628 buildings in the Republic which have been declared historically significant, and of these, 51 are maintained by the Department of Public Works after having been restored. One of those 51 buildings is the Castle in Cape Town. “Soos ’n blom met vyf gepunte kroonblare, lê die Kasteei de Goede Hoop by die ingang van Kaapstad.” That is how the Castle, in its strategic situation in Older Cape Town, has been described. In Cape Town, the Mother City of the Republic, the Castle is one of the three oldest buildings, of which the Castle is the most important. It links the earliest days of European civilization on the southern tip of Africa with the present. On the site of the present Parade as we have learnt to know it over the years, Commander Jan van Riebeeck built a four-cornered earth fort of sods in the same year that he arrived at the Cape, viz. in 1652. This fort was the bulwark protecting the Whites against the Hottentots and wild animals at the time. In the course of time the fort was not only battered by heavy rainstorms, but became unserviceable for the purpose for which it was intended. Because the significance of the Cape as a colony and not merely as a halfway station to the East had been realized, Commissioner Goske decided on 16 August 1665—in other words, a little more than 300 years ago—to build a fortress on the site to the east of the fort—in other words the site of the present Castle—in order to counter possible attacks by the English and other European forces. In 1665 the Commissioner directed Commander Wagenaar to take 300 soldiers from ships calling at the Cape in order to build the Castle. They were to break and fashion the building stone and build the walls with it. On 2 January 1666 the first foundation stones were laid by four very important personages at the Cape at that time, namely Commander Wagenaar, the Rev. Johan van Arckel, Junior Merchant Gabbema and the bailiff, Hendrik Lacus.

Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at 14h15.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. Chairman, before the Committee adjourned I was saying that the first foundation stones of the Castle were laid on 2 January 1666 by four very prominent men at the Cape. These men were Commander Wagenaar, the Rev. Johan van Arckel, Junior Merchant Gabbema and the bayliff, Hendrik Lacus. These gentlemen represented the executive, the church and the judicial authority.

This was a day of special significance for the Castle, so much so that soldiers, officials and burghers celebrated the occasion at State expense. We learn from history that eight casks of locally brewed beer, two cattle, six sheep and 100 loaves of bread were provided for the occasion by the State. Lustre was added to the occasion by a special poem dedicated to that day and recited by a poet of the period.

The construction of the Castle as we know it today progressed slowly. Major problems were encountered with regard to the labour. The labourers were the ships, soldiers, but they simply disappeared in working hours and made for the nearest bar in order to drink. As punishment they were chained to a wheelbarrow and made to work that way. It is interesting to note that a building was constructed next to the equipment shed which served as a church building in those times.

A few weeks after the laying of the foundation stone on 2 January 1666, the Rev. Johan van Arckel died and was buried under the church floor. History tells us that shortly after this Eva, the dissolute wife of the then Dr. Van Meerhof was also buried alongside the reverend gentleman during the same service. This old building, therefore, also guards the graves of these people.

During 1667 the work of construction of this old building was halted due to the supremacy of the Dutch fleet over the English fleet. However, during 1678 the work progressed so rapidly that part of the Castle was occupied.

In the time of Governor Van der Stel the work on the Castle progressed well, so much so that the courtyard of the Castle became the place of assembly for major occasions. During Christmas the burghers paid their respects to the Governor there. It was the seat of the executive authority at the Cape. It was the place where well-known people such as officials, visitors and prisoners stayed. It was the dwelling place of people like Simon van der Stel, his son Willem Adriaan van der Stel and Ryk Tulbagh. Lady Anne Barnard had her rooms in the building. This, too, is where Anton Anreith, the first South African artist, had his workshop, where many art treasures which still enrich our country were fashioned.

This wonderful old building bears silent testimony to the origin and growth of the colony at the Cape. We must be very grateful to the Department of Public Works for the fact that that old building can still stand as a monument to the genesis of our people, that it can convey to us the message that we should appreciate the good things from the past and that it colours the future with this wonderful evidence of aesthetic value.

Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon. member on a very interesting contribution. Unfortunately I cannot say the same of the contributions made by the Opposition. A big fuss was kicked up this morning about the housing provided for Deputy Ministers. This is an indication of the double standards being applied. I and many of my colleagues on this side of the House live in prefabricated buildings in Acacia Park. Members of both the UP and the PRP could have lived there and had houses there, but instead they built or purchased expensive houses here in the city and in other places because they do not want to stay in Acacia Park.

In 1974 I discussed the problems of our cripples, disabled people and elderly people under this Vote. On that occasion I made a plea that the needs of these people be considered when buildings are planned and constructed. I am very grateful to be able to say today that considerable progress has been made in that field and that the department is now in a position to see to these people’s needs effectively.

To begin with, let me just point out briefly the problems and frustrations of the cripples, the disabled, the blind, those who walk on crutches, the elderly, women with perambulators, etc. The first problem a disabled person encounters is in gaining access to certain buildings where provision is not made for ramps. Facilities such as parking spaces do not exist. Wide doorways, toilets, telephone booths and suitable lifts simply do not exist. The lack of these and other facilities is not experienced in public buildings alone, but is also to be encountered virtually throughout the private sector. One thinks of places for wheel chairs in theatres and of the problem of gaining access to bioscopes, hotels, restaurants and municipal buildings.

Mr. Chairman, the physically disabled person is not an invalid. He is entitled to his personal respect, his human dignity and his pride. He is just as much a citizen of this country as you and I. There are many more of these people than we think, but where are they? They keep out of sight. They withdraw from these embarrassments, these indignities, these instances of thoughtlessness and these obstructions which they are constantly encountering. The unpleasant truth is that each of us sitting here today, when we venture into a motor-car or onto the street, also runs the grave risk of being involved in a smash and joining the ranks of these disabled persons.

In the second place, I am very pleased that the Department of Public Works has progressed so far that today it is the accepted policy of this department to take the needs of disabled persons fully into account in the planning of new State buildings. In conjunction with the SABS and the Cripple Care Association, the department carried out research to determine a norm in regard to the provision of special toilets for males and females, wash-basins, lift controls, etc. What it amounts to in practice is that there should be at least one toilet and one wash basin per building for males and females which is adapted to that purpose. The cost involved is in fact minor in comparison with the cost of the building. According to my information it ought not to amount to much more than R500. I have with me the specifications which the department has drawn up in this connection to make such provision in courts of law, magistrates’ offices, hospitals, technical colleges, post offices, police stations etc. The specifications providing for proper parking facilities for these people are expounded very clearly here. Provision is also made for access to these buildings and wider doors and spaces within such buildings. There are regulations providing for ramps. Much interesting data is contained herein. There are specifications for the stairs in buildings where provision is not made for lifts. Furthermore, very important specifications have been set out in detail in respect of lifts, as well as detailed regulations relating to the use of wash-basins, toilets and other accessories. These specifications that are available are very interesting.

The day before yesterday we passed the important National Building Regulations and Building Standards Bill in which these specifications will be embodied. However, this important legislation was introduced by the hon. the Minister of Economic Affairs. I really do not hold this against the hon. the Minister of Economic Affairs or his department, but I really find it strange that this legislation was not dealt with by the Department of Public Works. In all humility, I feel that the Department of Public Works is pre-eminently suited, and equipped with the knowledge, means and staff, to deal with legislation of this nature. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to try to arrange with his colleagues that matters such as these be entrusted to his department in future. I know that there are other spheres, too, in which similar anomalies exist.

In conclusion, I want to make a very earnest plea to the bodies and persons concerned that these departmental specifications that have been compiled in co-operation with the SABS and the National Council for the Care of Cripples be included in the National Building Regulations and Building Standards Act by way of regulations without delay. It is very important that these regulations should also be made applicable to the private sector. The regulations are also essential in the building of hotels, theatres, bioscopes, churches, museums, restaurants and municipal buildings. We must not allow another long period to pass before these regulations are implemented.

This progress is undoubtedly a break-through and a source of much gratification for the disabled, the elderly and those members of the National Council for the Care of Cripples who have devoted their energies in years past to getting these things done. This Act, and the regulations which are to be included, are a major cause for gratitude among our disabled people. We owe a special debt of thanks to the hon. the Minister and his department for the breakthrough they have achieved. I want to express the confidence that there will be no further delay in this regard and that we shall be able to see the effect of this at once, not only within the framework of Government buildings but in the private sector as well.

Mr. Chairman, in the first instance I want to join hon. members in welcoming the new Secretary for Public Works to this House. In the year that we have worked together he has shown in every way that he will not disappoint the great confidence I have in him. On their own initiative the new Secretary and his professional and administrative heads went into the question of savings on buildings at once. The good work they have done in this connection so inspired me that I decided to carry on with what they have done and to declare it the official policy of my department. I want to do so by way of the following statement. In the annual report of my department, details of the value of major building works in various stages of construction, and the scope of the department’s advance planning programme, are furnished. Due to the limited funds that could be made available for building purposes in view of the curbing of State expenditure, and the large number of priority services that have to be continued with in the interests of the country, my department was faced with one of the biggest challenges of all times, namely to maintain a constant level of production within the framework of these limited funds.

It is therefore imperative only to continue with such services as cannot be postponed in the interests of the country, and secondly, that planning be confined strictly to what is essential and functional, with cost awareness as the guideline.

A new approach with regard to planning is therefore developing, with the primary guideline of forcing costs per sq. metre down to a level at which more accommodation can be made available for at least the same capital outlay without neglecting architectonic considerations and durability.

Where planning of projects is already in progress or has even been completed, and the estimates point to high unit costs, documentation is revised in order to reconsider and amend all unnecessary luxuries, uneconomic components and facets that can be eliminated without prejudicing the functional efficiency of the project, even though this involves some replanning.

A typical example is the proposed Government building in Plein Street, Cape Town. The building was planned as a prestige project, but in view of my department’s new approach the scheme is being revised. By a redistribution of certain layouts and the elimination of certain facets, the department hopes to provide the same elegant building with the same functional suitableness at a cost of R15 000 000 instead of the present estimate of R27 million, representing a saving of R12 million.

†The documentation of several large projects, including inter alia the post office complex on Church Square in Pretoria, is at present subject to a thorough investigation. The department is convinced that several millions of rand will in this way be made available to promote projects which had to be postponed temporarily.

Savings are also being effected in another way, for example by grouping type schools in one tender. This affords contractors continuity of production and prices are lower. Nearly 50% of the price of one individual school was recently saved by grouping four schools.

The provision of buildings in the most economical manner is not a new concept to the department, but the new approach comprises the elimination and/or replacement of those factors and components which do not contribute towards functional usefulness, but in fact towards higher costs.

Government departments will have to accept that only in exceptional cases, and for very special reasons, reasons which will also have to be approved at high level, will a deviation from this new norm be entertained. Private architects and private engineers will also have to comply with this concept. No departure therefrom will be tolerated.

*The intention is not to construct inferior buildings. What is envisaged is practical, functional buildings built in accordance with proven methods without characteristics which involve unnecessarily high cost and which contribute nothing to functional utility. In order to achieve this aim the department is at present carrying out extensive research both internally and abroad, and as a result of this research, has already drafted new codes of practice with regard to certain specialized buildings, codes which will entail a considerable saving in building costs.

I know that the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South will immediately make the cynical remark: What about the flats for the hon. Deputy Ministers? As far as these flats are concerned, the new policy I have stated here was complied with, viz. I had the final cost of the flats approved by the Cabinet. I concede that the cost of the flats is somewhat higher than the average cost of ordinary flats. However, I want to go on at once to refer to some important aspects of these flats. In the White Paper before the House, the cost is given as R450 000. After thorough planning and after we had eliminated a number of unnecessary things like sun porches, flower pots, etc., and had also made the flats quite a lot smaller than the flats at Rygersdal in Cape Town—the ones used by the Deputy Ministers here—the total cost is R482 450, instead of the original R450 000. The size of the flats is now 35 square metres for a flat with four bedrooms and 30 square metres for a flat with three bedrooms, which is smaller than the Rygersdal flats. Due to the increased cost I obtained the Cabinet’s approval. However, hon. members must bear in mind that each of these flats has a double garage, something which is not usually provided together with a flat. Usually flat dwellers park their cars under a shelter or in a parking basement. Furthermore, servants’ quarters are not usually included with an ordinary flat either. They are included in these flats—at a cost of R26 200. Moreover, flat dwellers usually do not contribute to the additional expenditure on the preparation of the site either. However, these flats are being constructed on rough terrain. The terrain therefore has to be prepared, and gardens and roads have to be laid out. Furthermore, fences have to be erected and sewage pipes installed.

Therefore, if one wants to arrive at a realistic figure for these flats, certain other aspects must also be borne in mind. The electrical installations, including stoves and refrigerators, cost R27 000. Smaller items cost R7 650. An amount of R28 750 is being allowed for cost increases. This brings the amount for the flats to R375 200. This signifies an average amount of R62 500 per flat. The additional expense to which I referred earlier and which includes provision for cost increases, comes to R107 250. That is how we arrive at the total cost of R482 450. If, therefore, we want to compare these flats with their urban equivalents, the cost is a mere R62 500 per flat.

It ought to be mentioned that the Cabinet originally decided that these flats should be comparable with the flats at Rygersdal. However they are now smaller and cheaper than the flats at Rygersdal after the department has done its best to cut costs as far as possible. When I took over the department I encountered the situation that accommodation was provided for Deputy Ministers in Cape Town and in Pretoria. Why not? After all, they occupy senior posts in the service of the State. Surely it cannot be expected of a Deputy Minister to invite overseas visitors, diplomatic visitors and others to a paltry little hovel of a flat. I do not therefore apologize in any way for having had those flats built for these colleagues of mine.

With regard to the accommodation allowance for which provision is also made in the budget, I want to eliminate one misunderstanding. A Deputy Minister does not get a bigger allowance than does an ordinary member of Parliament. For some reason—exactly why I do not know—the allowance payable to them, which is the same as the allowance received by an ordinary member, is divided into two. That is how simple it is.

From a security point of view it is necessary for these flats to be in the Brynterion complex. It is also far simpler for my department to service the flats in the Brynterion complex instead of purchasing houses and flats throughout Pretoria.

I want to let these few words suffice. I hope hon. members will not continue to try and milk this cow for political purposes, because it is a cow that has dried up completely.

Mr. Chairman, can the hon. the Minister tell us what rent he intends charging for these flats?

As far as rent is concerned, this may be reconsidered. I do not wish to commit myself. But the rent for flats and the allowance form part of a Deputy Minister’s conditions of service which are handled by the Department of the Prime Minister and not by the Department of Public Works. I have an idea that about R125 per month is at present paid for a four-bedroomed flat. They also pay a nominal amount in respect of water and other services and they pay the full amount for power.

As far as the alterations to the embassy in Umtata are concerned—an increase from R600 000 to R1 million—the position is that the Department of Public Works only carries out the work entrusted to it by the consumer department in question. Due to the additional accommodation which the department concerned requested, my department has to spend the additional amount.

As far as the stabilization of the building industry is concerned, I want to tell hon. members frankly that this is something which is near to my heart.

†It is quite evident that it must be the ideal to counter the cyclical fluctuations of the building and construction industry by using the best stabilizing measures possible. Both low and peak demands are very harmful to these industries and to the economy as a whole. The main problem today is that the yearly amounts spent by the private sector show a sharp decline. Against that the yearly amount spent by the public sector shows an encouraging increase, but unfortunately not enough at this stage to keep the industry on a healthy basis. Taking the 1970 figures as a basis, and excluding escalation costs, the relative figures of the contribution made by the public sector and the private sector is as follows: In 1969 the public sector paid R225 million, or 29,8%. The private sector paid R600 million, or 70,2%.

In 1976 the figure for the public sector was R477 million, or 47,7%, and the figure for the private sector was R553 million, or 53,3%. In 1977 the figure was R448 million, a percentage of 48%, as far as the public sector is concerned. For the private sector it was R490 million, which is equal to 52%. As was pointed out by an hon. member, the public sector will next year be higher, percentagewise, than the private sector.

My department is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, single client in the building industry and does its fair share. During 1976 it spent 7,2% of the total investment in buildings, that is in respect of private and public buildings. During 1977 this figure will increase to 9,4%. As far as I can see the only two alternatives to effect stabilization are, firstly, total control of all building activities. This will be extremely unpopular and difficult to implement. The second possibility is a scientific analysis of expected downward and upward trends on a three to four year basis and timeous programming to level off these trends. Theoretically this method seems to be ideal, but its practical implementation will be extremely difficult. The Kilian report of 1976 made a very thorough study of the whole problem and the Building Industry Advisory Council has made an in-depth study of the report. Unfortunately they have as yet not reported to me as was envisaged last year. The problem is so complex that they decided to refer the report to a number of bodies for their recommendations before making a final report to me. I hope that I will have something much more positive to say about this matter next year.

As far as the question of a Select Committee on public works is concerned, I think the hon. member will recollect that this was turned down in a private motion last year. So I am afraid I cannot accommodate the hon. member there.

We shall keep on trying.

I have no objection to the hon. member bringing hardy annuals here every year. As far as the use of small contractors are concerned, I want to emphasize that the department makes extensive use of such contractors. The final decision regarding the allocation of tenders, however, rests with the State Tender Board. When a tender is considered, cognizance must be taken of the size of the building project and the ability and the organization of a contractor.

As far as municipal grants and the cost of services are concerned, I cannot, due to the time factor, go into all the figures that I have here. I can only quote one or two examples. During the 1977-’78 financial year we will have to pay R11 500 000 for electricity and gas as compared with R7 688 000 during the previous year. This represents an increase of R3 812 000. The hon. member will agree that I have no power to curb municipalities as far as these costs are concerned. Due to the time factor I cannot, however, give him any further details as far as that is concerned. I think I have now answered all the questions put to me by the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South.

*The hon. member for Tygervallei mainly discussed the Haylett formula. This formula, of course, is an adaptation of the Baxter formula which was in use for many years. This formula was designed by the Building and Construction Advisory Council. Technicians, professional people and interested parties from all sectors of society have a seat on that council. A standing committee of the Building and Construction Advisory Council investigates the efficiency of the formula on an on-going basis. I just want to point out to the hon. member that the Stellenbosch Bureau for Economic Research uses figures provided by the Department of Statistics if any conclusion is to be reached. This is exactly what the Building and Construction Advisory Council also does. Of course, the book on the Haylett formula also gives a full description of the advantages and disadvantages of the formula. Unfortunately, due to the time factor I cannot discuss these aspects here now, but I do just want to point out what is said on page 8 of the Secretary’s annual report. In it the following benefit of the Haylett formula is mentioned—

If any hon. members want to discuss this matter further so that my department can look at the whole matter in depth, I should welcome it.

I now come to the hon. member for Orange Grove. I think I have already replied conclusively in regard to the residences of Deputy Ministers. He pointed out the danger that initial figures were often different to the final figures. It sometimes happens that a capital work is included in the department’s budget before planning has started. When this is done an estimate of cost is based on the certified accommodation requirements. Subsequently, the cost estimate is revised and adjusted at the following stages (a) after the completion of sketch plans; (b) after the completion of working drawings; (c) after the completion of quantity lists; (d) when fluctuations in building costs occur; (e) when the requirements of the consumer department change and (f) when the tender date is postponed and the estimated cost is projected to the new programmed tender date. It is therefore possible that the estimated costs provided from time to time in respect of a specific project can fluctuate considerably.

Then the hon. member said that we should try to make use of existing buildings and not build new ones. That is exactly what we are doing. He also referred to Coloured schools at Mitchell’s Plain which are standing empty at the moment. I can assure the hon. member that this happens very seldom. The hon. member will realize that more than one department is responsible for all the facilities. There is an interdepartmental committee that determines these things from time to time. Sometimes one’s advanced planning and advanced estimates are not what they should be. I can assure him that this happens very seldom.

†The hon. member referred to the future of Marks Building. I can assure the hon. member that the firm and final decision of the Cabinet is to retain Marks Building. There is no idea whatsoever that in future this building would be demolished. I can assure the hon. member that while I was Speaker I came out as a strong champion for retaining this delightful building and as Minister of Public Works I maintain the same attitude. There is, however, this one problem, namely that a small portion of the back of the building will have to be demolished so as to allow building of the new Plein Street office complex. That would not in any way interfere with the wonderful facade of the building.

The hon. member also referred to the sharp increase in fees. This increase is due to the fact that the availability of funds resulted in the acceleration of the planning of services and the commencement of new services. The joint effect hereof resulted in a considerable increase in the payment of fees to outside firms. For 1977-’78 an amount of nearly R150 million has been allotted for major services against almost R117 million for the previous year. I might mention to the hon. member that I am of course continually being pressed by the professional disciplines, who are in dire need of work at present, that we should do this type of pre-planning.

As far as damage to schools is concerned, this is a new service for which funds will only become available after promulgation of the Appropriation Act. My department is at present determining the priorities in consultation with the Department of Coloured Relations, and I hope that work will commence on this shortly.

*As far as the hon. member for Boksburg is concerned, I want to thank him for the support he gave me in connection with the Deputy Minister’s flats. I just want to say that if I were to have accommodated the Deputy Ministers in houses which I would have had to buy—I know what the prices are in Pretoria—then instead of spending this amount I would have had to pay more than R100 000 a piece. The department is of course a major stabilizing factor in the building industry, as the hon. member indicated by means of the figures he provided. I just want to repeat that the figures relating to expenditure by this department have increased from plus/minus R45 million to plus/minus R148 million this year. In other words, we are doing our best to stabilize the building industry as far as we can.

I now come to the hon. member for Maitland. He states that the Government itself should set an example. I think that with the policy statement I made earlier, I furnished ample proof that we are in fact trying to set an example. As far as Coloured schools specifically are concerned, I want to say that my department has a proud record. The amount we have spent on their university, on primary and secondary schools and on technical and professional education, increased from less than R6 million in 1972-’73 to something over R18 million this year. The total amount we have spent on Coloured education in these five years is more than R60 million. However, this is nothing in comparison with what we are going to spend over the next five years. In that period we are going to spend a little over R140 million. Only R3,5 million of this will not be spent on education. This R3,5 million will be spent on welfare accommodation. We have a proud record in this regard.

As far as unused buildings are concerned, it is our policy to use those buildings as far as possible. If a department asks for new accommodation we consider the request very critically before taking a decision to build new accommodation.

The hon. member for Hercules referred, and rightly so, to the importance of the building industry, and the important role played by the South African Bureau of Standards and the Building Research Institute in this connection. He pleaded that a bonus be given to architects who designed functional buildings. I can give the hon. member the assurance that architects do not need a bonus to design functional buildings nowadays. Work is so scarce, and competition is so fierce, that they will have to devote their energies to designing functional buildings in order to survive.

It is the aim of my department at all times not to demolish old buildings summarily but as far as possible to restore them for re-use.

The hon. member will agree with me that the fruitless expenditure of about R200 000 to which he referred is a drop in the bucket in comparison with our total expenditure. Nevertheless, we are at all times mindful of the need to eliminate fruitless expenditure. However, many factors are involved, inter alia, change in the requirements of departments, after it has been found that the soil structure is not as it should be, and so on. These are factors which necessarily result in fruitless expenditure from time to time. In most instances, however, it is not my department that has to answer for this.

The hon. member for Somerset East gave us a very interesting mini lecture on the Castle. We are grateful to him for doing so. I want to give him the assurance that the restoration of old historic buildings is a matter of pride with us. He need only go and see how well we look after the Castle. If he should travel through Bloemfontein again he should go and see how we are restoring the Presidency there. The sandstone façade has already been completed. I think that next year the hon. member will be able to make a lyrical speech about the work we are doing there at the moment. The hon. member for Kempton Park praised the work our department is doing to equip buildings for disabled people. I agree with everything he said. He must look after these people.

He also raised the possibility that certain work should be transferred to my department. As far as the national building regulations and standards are concerned, I want to say that this aspect was entrusted to the SABS by way of legislation as far back as 1962. The aim is to compile, amend and replace draft building regulations for the benefit of local managements. The standardization of building regulations has therefore been the function of the SABS from as far back as 1962, whereas on the other hand, the development of building techniques and designs, and the regulation of the building industry in general, fall within the scope of the activities of the Department of Public Works. Up to now, the field of activities of my department and that of the sub-department have not clashed. If anomalies and clashes were to occur, then I can assure the hon. member that I would take the matter up with the Minister concerned with this sub-department in a friendly spirit in an effort to bring about better co-ordination.

Mr. Chairman, I thank all hon. members for their interest in this Vote and for their outstanding contributions to the debate.

In conclusion I just want to say a few words about a matter which is becoming of cardinal importance nowadays, viz. the work entrusted to private practitioners. We are continually receiving requests that some architect or engineer should be given work. I want to spell out very clearly today that although I approve appointments for building operations to the value of more than R1 million, I am not prepared to approve an appointment on my own without obtaining advice. Otherwise this could lead to my being accused of making political appointments and of being prejudiced in my choice of practitioner, and this could give rise to endless problems. The position is that there is a committee in the department comprising the two Deputy-secretaries and the heads of the three disciplines. Their recommendations are submitted to the Secretary for final approval, and in the case of a building operation of more than R1 million I have to give the final approval. This works well, and I cannot be accused of any prejudice or bias in this connection.

I also want to point out that up to and including the ’fifties, the department carried out all its professional work itself, but because the work increased to such an extent, we compiled a schedule of firms in 1968 and firms had to have themselves registered. The work is now given to these firms on a rotation basis. Certain factors are taken into account in this regard. Unfortunately I do not have the time to go into them. One factor, for example, is that the architect has to stay in a specific locality. We also consider the scope of the work and then determine the ability of the architect or engineer to undertake work of that scope.

In this way we try to share out the work as fairly as possible on the rotation basis. Despite this, there are 37 architects in Cape Town, for example, that have never obtained work on this rotation basis; in Johannesburg there are 71; in Pretoria 38; in Durban 38; in Port Elizabeth 11; and in Bloemfontein eight. I could quote similar figures with regard to the other disciplines.

We are already hearing complaints that the department does not support private initiative, in this case private practitioners, to a sufficient extent. However, I want to point out that the increase in professional fees which we paid to private bodies and persons in 1970-’71 was R3,5 million whereas the amount for the past financial year had increased to almost R12 million. In my opinion this reflects fair treatment of the private sector.

The department is also reproached for employing many architects and engineers. These people are, of course, holders of State bursaries and are obliged to work for the department for five years. One cannot allow a young graduated architect or engineer who still has to do a few years of training, to work for five years, and then show him the door. The man cannot do routine work, but creative work. In his turn he eventually has to evaluate major contracts. We therefore have to train people and we cannot show them the door after they have been trained. We therefore have to give them creative work to do in the department. However, I want to stress that we are not appointing additional people. We are only filling vacancies which occur in our authorized establishment.

In conclusion, I want to thank all hon. members who took part in the debate once again for their contributions and also for their co-operation over the year. Then, too, I want to convey a word of sincere thanks to the Secretary and his department for their fine work over the past year.

Votes agreed to.

Vote No. 38.—“Immigration”:

Mr. Chairman, I unexpectedly find myself in the enviable position of not having to react to someone else’s viewpoints. Therefore the hon. the Minister and I can have a quiet and enjoyable conversation. I hope there will be no unnecessary interference from the people outside, for we have serious matters to discuss.

Then you must behave yourself.

I shall do my best.

†There is one very distressing aspect of the whole migration picture to which I would like to draw attention this afternoon. I am referring to the increasing number of South Africans, mostly Whites but also many Coloured people, who are leaving the country to settle elsewhere. This is a state of affairs which we all deplore and which we sincerely hope will not continue. I would like to make an appeal to South Africans who may be contemplating leaving to think again and rather to stay to help in the great and exciting task of developing South Africa and building it up into a country of which not only its own people, but also the outside world, will be proud.

The figures are disconcerting. According to the February report on tourism and migration of the Department of Statistics the number of South Africans leaving the country to settle elsewhere has more than doubled in the past 12 months. In February last year emigrants from South Africa numbered 731 and in February, 1977, there were 1 579 emigrants—an increase of at least 115%. That is not all. Australia seems to be one of the main beneficiaries—if I may call it that—of this drift. It was reported earlier this year that no fewer than 5 379 South Africans had applied to emigrate there in the eight months preceding February this year, compared with only 4 175 applications over the 12 months to June 1976. I suggest this ought to be a matter of real concern to the hon. the Minister. I would like to know whether any attempt has been made to establish precisely and scientifically why so many South Africans are leaving this country. We all have knowledge of individuals who have their own reasons for leaving, but I suggest there is a case for a thorough inquiry into the matter, an inquiry which might have very revealing results. It might even enable the hon. the Minister to suggest ways and means of slowing down this drain. It would obviously be far cheaper to persuade South Africans to stay here than to bring in new South Africans. In 1975-’76 the Department of Immigration spent about R6 240 000 on bringing in 29 455 immigrants. During 1976 23 908 immigrants came to the Republic at a cost to the State of R4 646 000. In addition, 600 157 of these people were accommodated at State expenditure for various periods at a cost of more than R340 000. I am not suggesting for one moment that anybody begrudges the spending of money for this purpose, but I say it would certainly make more sense if, at the same time, we were not losing so many established South Africans. Often these people are young, the most talented, and usually they are the most sensitive of our population. We can ill afford to lose them.

I again want to raise the question of the recruiting of specialized teachers in Great Britain with the hon. the Minister. I am thinking specifically of maths and science teachers. I believe that in Britain there is still a large surplus of unemployed teachers who have these qualifications. There is no need for anybody to stress again the urgent need for finding qualified teachers to teach these subjects here in South Africa. When I raised this question in the House with the hon. the Minister’s predecessor, he undertook to discuss it with the four Administrators. He did that, but I am afraid he did not have very much success. He went even further and wrote to the authorities in Great Britain and elsewhere. Although a number of practical problems are associated with this matter—for example differing salary scales, the question of language, etc.—the hon. the Minister of National Education said at the time—

I was wondering whether the hon. the Minister could tell us whether his department has been able to take this matter any further and, if so, whether they have had any success. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister has been able to give any special consideration or thought to a special recruiting campaign undertaken, if necessary, in conjunction with the Administrators of the four provinces and other interested and affected authorities. This is a very real problem. I believe people are available and this is the one field in which we can get them.

Another specialized area in which there is a real and pressing shortage of skilled people is in the field of telecommunications. I am told by the Post Office authorities that their need for these technicians remains as great as it has been in recent years, and one can but hope that the hon. the Minister’s department is doing all it can in Europe and elsewhere to bring skilled men of this particular category into the country. Once again, I want to stress that the training of people of all races as technicians should proceed without let-up, as I am assured it is. The Postmaster-General and the hon. the Minister of National Education have assured us that it is being done, but we have an immediate need to meet in this context, and I suggest that this is a field in which we can do very positive work.

Finally, there is an important practical problem that I wish to raise with the hon. the Minister. That is the question of foreigners who come to this country to look around and who fall in love with the country to such an extent that they decide to apply for permanent residence. One has had experience with numbers of such people. I know the question of whether they remain here temporarily is one for the Ministry of the Interior; but I would like to know whether it is in fact not possible for the immigration and the interior authorities to co-operate and to make it easier for such people to stay here while awaiting the outcome of their applications for permanent residence.

Too often one hears of cases in which such people have to leave the country because their permits have expired. Surely, it should be possible to establish from visitors of this nature whether or not they desire to become bona fide permanent residents—and whether they will in fact be desirable immigrants in the sense in which the immigration authorities use the term. In the light of that, they should then be issued with a document making their stay valid until the Immigrants Selection Board has considered their applications. One realizes that it will involve close co-operation between the two departments mentioned. However, I cannot see why this should present any insuperable difficulties. I know that in the USA foreigners who apply for permanent residence are allowed to remain and to work in the country until their applications have been considered. I personally know of a case in which a South African has been enabled to remain in America in this way for over a year, waiting to hear whether he is going to be accepted as a permanent resident. He suffers no disability while waiting and nobody has yet suggested he should go home to wait there, as happens to people in similar circumstances here in South Africa. I hope the hon. the Minister and his officials will go into this matter. It will not only save people a great deal of concern and, of course, a lot of money, but, I believe, it will also, in the process, create a great deal of goodwill.

In conclusion, we should remember, looking at the figures for the last year or so, that our net population gain through immigration is far smaller indeed than it should be. There are many reasons for this, including of course the political climate in this country at the moment, and also the situation which arose as a result of last year’s urban rioting. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman the hon. member for Parktown was in a bit of a predicament today. He did not prepare himself to be the first speaker on the Opposition side. That was why he made a purely political speech, in a debate which actually lends itself to a calm and peaceful reflection by us on this very important matter which is now being discussed. The hon. member, however, plunged straight into the matter and kicked up a great fuss about the large number of emigrants. However, he committed a basic error in approach. His premise was that, during a specific period, an exceptionally large number of people had suddenly left the country. Surely the hon. member knows that that is not the correct approach. He ought to know that a matter of this nature can only be correctly appraised by studying the data on it over a long period of time. That is the only way in which one can form a true picture of the whole situation. If one does consider the matter over a long period, one observes that South Africa, as far as immigrants are concerned, is still in a very fortunate and favourable position. If one takes cognizance only of the statistical data contained in the annual report, one observes that the total number of immigrants between 1961 and July 1976 was 569 929, while only 143 000 people left the country during the same period. I think that this is a reasonably favourable picture of the situation, one which we should not be very concerned about. However, if one goes into the matter further, one observes that for the period 1972-’73 after deducting the emigrants, the net gain in professional people was still 5 498; that of people in managerial and administrative posts, 676; clerical 3 173 and manufacturing and construction, 7 622. The hon. member for Parktown, however, takes a short period, for which there are specific reasons, and wishes to imply that the country is losing people on a large scale. I see a political motive in that. I see in that the motive that the PRP, through the hon. member for Parktown, wishes to imply that people are beginning to lose confidence in the Republic of South Africa and are taking flight.

It is the hon. member who is saying that. I am trying to establish what it is.

Surely that is an incorrect premise. Our approach should be to see what the picture looks like over a long period, and if one does that, one sees that it is a favourable picture, thanks to the confidence in the Republic of South Africa which the National Party has created in the world. The hon. member asked for “a thorough inquiry”. I really do not think the hon. member for Parktown, who spoke on behalf of the PRP, can ask for such a “thorough inquiry”.

Why not?

I am inclined to think that if one were to go into the reasons why people are leaving South Africa, one can arrive at only one conclusion, i.e. that the PRP with its stated standpoint, with its destructive criticism, with its deterring methods, is the cause of people losing confidence in South Africa and leaving for other abodes. [Interjections.] I do not believe that they can afford to call for such a “thorough inquiry”. I do not think that they can come through it unscathed.

The discussion of this Vote lent itself to a calm, tranquil debate. It is a pity that the hon. member for Parktown made a speech which was interspersed with attempts to turn a very delicate matter into a political issue. I am quite satisfied that we shall always find that a number of people leave South Africa. We shall always have this in any case. It need not deter one. It does not mean the end of the world. They have their reasons for going. We should allow them to leave. One would rather do without them than to have unwilling people here in one’s midst. In the second place, we should be very grateful for a total of 426 000 people who came to South Africa from foreign countries and who are still in the Republic of South Africa today, because they know there is no other homeland which is so safe, such a good place to live in, as this beautiful country of ours. We are grateful that they will continue to live here, in spite of the politicking of the PRP.

This brings me at once to the matter I very much wanted to discuss. Since a drop in the number of immigrants to South Africa is to be expected, owing to obvious economic and other reasons, we should make use of this slack period to consolidate our position in respect of immigration, particularly in this respect that we should use this time to convince everyone in this country who is under the impression that the immigrants might possibly constitute a danger to them, that every immigrant who comes to the Republic of South Africa is a person who comes here not only to skim off the cream but to make of this country his and his children’s future fatherland. The time has arrived for us to say that people of foreign extraction should not be referred to as immigrants, but that we should accept them as fellow-citizens of the Republic of South Africa. In this connection today I want to make a serious appeal to our people to accept immigrants as such fellow-citizens. We should be prepared to accept the bona fides of immigrants as people who have come to make South Africa their only home. This is the first matter.

Arising out of that there is another matter. We should teach our people to accept that the immigrants are people with a culture, a tradition and a language of their own, and that they have the right to respect that which is their own, even though they find themselves within the borders of the Republic of South Africa. We should, in addition, make an appeal to our people to go out of their way to let these temporary foreigners feel at home in this country in every respect, and to allow them to become assimilated into the community of the Republic of South Africa. We should also let them feel that we appreciate their presence here, because we believe that they are capable of making a contribution to the development and the welfare of the Republic of South Africa. If that is our point of departure, and if all of us can succeed in doing that, instead of turning this matter into a political issue, we shall in future have only an splendid position here. Then we shall not have people who feel that they are unwelcome, people who do not feel at home, but people who feel that they are really being accepted as citizens of our country.

I must pay tribute today to the hon. the Minister and his department for what they have done in this respect in the past. The Department of Immigration is a relatively small department with—if I remember correctly—only 264 posts. In spite of that they have, in recent years, done a fantastic amount of work, not only in bringing people to this country, but also in assisting to assimilate these people and make them feel at home within our borders. I should also like to pay special tribute to the Secretary and to his staff in this respect. We are not pessimistic about the situation at present, we have reason to be very optimistic about the department, the work it is doing and the success it is achieving. On that note, I conclude.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Springs has insisted that we slow down the debate a little. I think that I should make an attempt to do so.

When we talk about immigrants, one could also cast a glance round this House. The English translation of “trekvoël” is migratory bird. I should like to ask the hon. member for Sea Point whether he has issued the necessary visas for the hon. members for Jeppe, Bezui-denhout, Von Brandis and Edenvale yet. It has been told to me as the Gospel truth that the hon. member for Sea Point has applied for a visa …

Order! The hon. member must return to a discussion of the Vote.

Mr. Chairman, I am talking about immigration. And talking about immigration, if one wishes to emigrate to some countries, one requires a visa.

That is emigration.

I have heard that the hon. member for Sea Point has applied to emigrate to Zaïre. I want to warn the hon. member that there are still cannibals in some parts of Africa. The hon. member should be careful.

I should like to pause for a moment to consider conception which some of our people hold in regard to immigrants in South Africa. It is a conception and a view which relates more specifically to military and police service. It is a conception which I think is too critical, and which for that reason requires our attention. It is very easily said that the immigrants simply come to South Africa to make money, and that our young men have to defend the country so that the people who come to South Africa from other countries can carry on their business in peace and tranquillity. It is also said that the immigrants are even too afraid to undergo military training and that they will be the first to run when things become too hot for them in South Africa.

I make so bold as to say that there may be an element of truth in this view, but then I also wish to hasten to add that this cannot be said of the immigrants in South Africa as such.

The present policy in regard to the military training of immigrants is as follows. All male White immigrants under the age of 25 years who have been in the country for at least five years are required to register as national servicemen. Upon registration such immigrants have to indicate whether or not they intend to become citizens of South Africa. If they reply positively to this question, they are treated as normal South African citizens and may be balloted. However, if they do not express such an intention, they are not balloted. This is in accordance with existing international policy, international law and international agreements. Just as the Afrikaner in a foreign country is not liable to military service in that country, but in South Africa, so these non-citizens of South Africa are not liable to military service if they do not wish to become citizens. Despite that fact, thousands of immigrants are being trained as national servicemen in South Africa. They are people who have declared that they should like to fight for their new fatherland. They are people who are not only undergoing training, but people who are indeed doing border duty as well. I cannot quote a better example than the report which appeared on 8 June in Die Vaderland. The caption to the report read: “Driejarige maak R75 vir die Suiderkruis bymekaar.” I quote briefly from this report—

I make so bold as to say that this is an extremely commendable effort, one eminently worthy of being imitated. If we consider ourselves, we who sit here as representatives of the people, we can wonder how many of us ever inspired our children to such an extent that they wanted to collect something for our men on the border. It is extremely easy for us to talk, and we talk a great deal, but in reality it is deeds that count. That is why I find it so splendid that a Lebanese immigrant should have gone for the umpteenth time to do border duty, while his young three-year-old daughter thinks it fit and proper to collect money. Normally the policy of the Defence Force does not allow us to mention figures, and frequently, too, it is right that we should not mention figures. However, we know that many of the people who have intimated that they do not wish to become citizens of the country, nevertheless join our commandos and the Citizen Force. When these people are taken up into the Defence Force, specific attention is paid to the information which they supplied on the prescribed forms. In this way people are taken up into the Defence Force in a way that enables the best use to be made of their talents, their background and their training, so that some of them are able to do extremely necessary translation work for the Defence Force, others are able to perform medical services and some, technical services. There is probably no better example of immigrants and the descendants of immigrants than the example in Pretoria, where the commanding officer of the Northern Transvaal Regiment is a man from a German immigrant family. We also find that many of our better-known regiments that have a glorious tradition, like the Scottish and Irish regiments, including the Kraffrarian Rifles, are even today made up of immigrants and the descendants of immigrants. Leaving aside the Defence Force, we also find that the immigrant is not backward in coming forward when it comes to serving in the Police Force. I want to quote from the latest annual report of the Commissioner of Police, who stated explicitly in paragraph 7(1)—

That is the calibre of immigrant we wish to attract to South Africa. I make so bold as to say that this is the calibre of immigrant of whom we can be proud. They are people who come to South Africa and throw in their lot with the South Africans, who are prepared to undergo training and who are prepared to do border duty. We should like to thank these people. We who have the responsibility of governing the country, appreciate that attitude and appreciate what they are doing. We should like to praise and pay tribute to them.

Mr. Chairman, having listened to what the hon. member for Parktown had to say, one must ask oneself why people still come to South Africa in spite of the gossip campaign which is being waged against us from that quarter. There are some of them who came to this country for economic reasons and I think that there are some of them sitting on the opposite side of this House. There are thousands of immigrants who came to this country to get away from the socialism of Europe and other places and to live under a proper capitalistic system here in South Africa where free enterprise still exists and where they can work out a future for themselves and their children. They flee the pernicious influence of trade unions and strikes in their countries of origin. They flee to this country because they want to get away from pacifistic liberalism.

These people long for a little discipline. They come here because they want their children to grow up in a country in which discipline still exists. They come to this country because there is a Government here which has the courage of its convictions to take action against the things which action is no longer being taken against in other Western countries. They no longer take action against pornography, desecration of the Sabbath, drug addiction, prostitution, permissiveness and other evils. We remember very well what the attitude on the opposite side of this House was when we piloted laws against these evils through Parliament. The immigrants come to South Africa because there are still schools here in which discipline is maintained and in which there are teachers who are motivated. They come to the sunshine, the wide-open spaces and the blue skies of South Africa to make a new life and a new future for themselves here, in spite of the negative attitude of that side of the House.

I want to subject certain aspects of the integration in our country of our new South Africans to a close scrutiny. Because the NP is a party which builds, it is important that we succeed in integrating the new South Africans in our way of life. The NP is a party which builds for the future and the best building blocks are its human material. This is the children of our nation and the children of our new South Africans who have to help these two cultures to continue to exist in this country.

The first point I want to make in this regard is that the success of our immigration scheme does not depend so much on the numbers of people that are recruited to come to this country. It depends, however, on the extent to which these immigrants are incorporated into the established communities and the way in which they accept our South African way of life. The task of assimilation is becoming ever greater. Today, greater demands are being made on our assimilating organizations. I want to speak with great praise of the work which is being done by the Maatskappy vir Europese Immigrasie and the 1820 Memorial Settlers’ Association. I want to congratulate these organizations on the exceptionally excellent work they are doing. However, the responsibility does not end there. Integration and assimilation are, after all, the work and the task of all South Africans who are expected to play an important and indispensable part in this connection.

I should like to turn to the business sector in our community and make a plea to them for greater involvement in the assimilation of our new South Africans into our society. Who are the people who have benefited the most, and are still benefiting, from the thousands of new South Africans who have come to this country over the years? It is in fact our business sector. Our business undertakings and our industries have benefited the most. Immigrants who came to this country every year enabled those people to build up their undertakings. Our industrial growth benefited considerably from this. It is general knowledge that many new job opportunities have to be created annually to make provision for our growing population. In this respect, these new South Africans, with their capital, have been the so-called “job creators”. That is why our industrialists and our business men also have a duty to stand by these new immigrants, these new South Africans in the problems which they encounter.

These people have to be informed of the industrial legislation. The best place to do that, is in their work situation. They have to be informed about our unemployment insurance. Special attention has to be given to the language aspect. If the immigrant cannot communicate, he cannot do his work well either. If he can communicate, he is happy. He wants to know precisely what is expected of him each day in the work situation. He should be assisted in finding a house which is a home for him to which he can return in the afternoon or evening. He has to be informed about the hire-purchase laws, medical services, trade unions, our system of taxation and a host of other matters. I want to make a plea to our business people to play their part in this respect. I am convinced that a great deal of valuable assimilation work can be done on the factory floor, as well as in the office. Businessmen can, with their financial contributions, enable the assimilating organizations to make a greater effort to teach the immigrants to speak Afrikaans. The more bilingual immigrants are, the better citizens of the Republic they will be.

I also wish to advocate to our new South Africans to display a greater affection for our second official language. It will be possible to have a better understanding of our problems and our people if immigrants have a thorough knowledge of Afrikaans and English. It is therefore necessary for better facilities to be created to enable those people to learn Afrikaans in particular. I want to confine myself to this in particular. My appeal to our new South Africans is to make use of the language laboratories, etc., which exist. There are already thoroughly planned and programmed language lessons available which have been recorded on tape and on records. These language lessons could form the basis of a method for learning Afrikaans for example. Most people have record players or tape recorders. If the records and tapes can be made cheaply—please note cheaply!—available to those who wish to learn Afrikaans, it would be a valuable aid. The whole family will benefit from this. The advantage is that the language can then be spoken by the family as a whole at home. I also believe that it could be of great value to the lonely housewife who can spend many pleasurable hours during the day learning a new language in her home in this way. My request to the hon. the Minister is that consideration should for example be given to subsidizing the making available of these records or tapes so that they are readily available to interested new South Africans. I believe that this would be a good investment towards promoting bilingualism, with all the benefits which that constitutes.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Kempton Park raised a few important matters here and did so in an effective way. I think he did it so effectively that he cannot expect the official Opposition to be able to react to it.

The hon. member for Jeppe has year after year under the discussion of this Vote regaled us with speeches on the inefficiency of this department when it was unable to maintain the immigration figure of 50 000 and more. I do not think that the hon. member could have chosen a better debate than this for emigration. If he emigrates from this debate, it is entirely in order.

Mr. Chairman, the Department of Immigration came into existence in 1961. Previously this work had been done by the Department of the Interior, which has since then still dealt with the issuing of residence permits. There are very good reasons for this arrangement. In certain respects, however, it creates tremendous problems and delays and entails additional expenses. There are few people—the hon. member for Parktown is one of them—who realize that the Department of Immigration deals only with immigration matters and that the question of temporary residence permits falls under the Department of the Interior. This arrangement sometimes causes the two departments to be unnecessarily criticized. I am convinced that continued close co-operation between the departments is absolutely essential in order to eliminate misunderstandings and delays, and to serve the best interests of our country in these two important spheres.

If there is one small group of people that is frequently criticized when they do not deserve to be and very seldom receive recognition for what they are doing, it is the 251 members of the staff of the Department of Immigration. Of the total staff of 251, 50 are employed abroad. In 1975, 50 000 immigrants came to South Africa. In other words, these officials had to dispose of approximately 200 cases per working day. If one takes into consideration that not every person who applies, eventually comes out to this country, one realizes the tremendous extent of the work which is being done by the department During the post-war period from 1946 to 1960, i.e. until this department was established, the immigration gain was 90 000 out of a total of 252 000; that is to say, our gain was approximately 40% of the total number of immigrants who originally came out to this country. During the period 1961 to 1976 the gain was 437 000 out of a total number of immigrants of 508 000; that is to say, the gain amounted to approximately 80%. These figures testify to dedicated work, but confirm in particular the wisdom of the Government’s policy of allowing immigrants only after proper selection.

The Immigrants Selection Board deserves not only our praises, but also those of the immigrants who eventually come out to South Africa. It is only as a result of the thorough work done by this board that it is possible to ensure that a person who immigrates to South Africa can adjust happily and efficiently to his new fatherland. As an hon. member quite justifiably said, there is no better method of recruiting immigrants than through happy immigrants. Therefore I believe that it is the task of each one of us to support the department. In this regard I want to make an appeal to the Press in particular not to make the difficult task of the department even more difficult.

In 1976, the year of the great fright, we had an immigration figure of more than 30 000. However, these people received less publicity than two professors who left the country, ostensibly to seek a safer abode in Canada. Under great banner headlines it was stated: “We are quitting. Now there is a fear of a South African brain drain.” But what are the facts? During 1976 we still had a gain of 4 000 professional immigrants. Oddly enough they were in fact the largest group of economically active immigrants, viz. 6 000, as against the 5 500 factory and construction workers, who formed the second-largest group.

In spite of the present economic situation we still need the immigrants. Things are already being made extremely difficult for them abroad. There are countries which impose a complete ban on immigration to South Africa. Other countries prohibit the recruiting of immigrants, and there are also organizations abroad who are waging a fierce anti-immigration campaign against South Africa.

If one takes into consideration what is happening at present in Southern Africa, and the untruths which are being proclaimed about conditions here, the achievements of this department is all the more remarkable. Any person who, in spite of the propaganda against South Africa, nevertheless decides to come to this country, cannot but be a good citizen. In exactly the same way as previous speakers, I want to re-emphasize that it is the duty of every South African to make these people feel at home, and happy. I am grateful to see that, in spite of the essential cut-back on State expenditure, there has been no cut-back on the two immigrants’ organizations, the Maatskappy vir Europese Immigrasie and the 1820 Settlers’ Association. On the contrary, a further R13 000 was made available to the 1820 Settlers’ Association in the Additional Estimates. These people are doing essential and very good work, but, as I did last year, I again wish to ask whether it is necessary to have two such organizations. They do not have unlimited funds at their disposal, and if they were to decide to co-ordinate their work, they would perhaps be able, in the interest of South Africa, to render their meritorious services even more effectively.

Mr. Chairman, I do not intend using a great deal of time in this debate. In general we have had interesting and constructive contributions in the debate. The question of the integration of the immigrants into our South African way of life has been stressed and, obviously, it is a matter which must be very highly commended. I think our country is a country of tremendous challenge. It has tremendous challenge not only with regard to the events of the day, but also with regard to its future. I am sure that immigrants who come to our country and wish to stay here, have the opportunity of getting to know the people better and of making up their minds to integrate themselves into the life of the country. If they do that they will find the challenge that presents itself very satisfying. We South Africans would welcome them to take part with us in the challenge that faces us. We have had a tremendous amount of anti-South African propaganda, but if one looks at the figures for 1975 and certainly at those for the first half of 1976, one finds a continuous increase in the number of people coming to South Africa, attracted by the many opportunities which a country like this can offer. We on this side of the House have constantly pressed the Government to use every possible means to attract immigrants to South Africa. Our complaint has always been that the Government, many years ago—unfortunately and perhaps foolishly—held back the flow of immigrants that were available at the time. One is always pleased, however, to see that things have changed, that the numbers have continued to increase and that in every field of activity we have had more and more people entering the country. If one looks at the latest figures, one still finds that, on balance, we have gained. I do not see any reason why anyone should want to quit our country out of a sense of fear. In many respects their departures may be due to the usual causes that the late Dr. van Eck once put to me when we discussed the question of the “brain drain” from South Africa. He said to me: “This question of ‘brain drain’ of professionals is found in all countries in the world.” Canada and the USA, for instance, constantly lose several thousands per annum in certain fields of activity, and he specifically mentioned the field of engineering. According to him there was a constant drain from one country to the other, virtually equalizing itself in number, because of the desire perhaps to seek new fields of experience and to seek new opportunities of increasing knowledge in the particular field in which a person serves.

Therefore, talking from this side of the House in these present days, we are not critical of what the department is doing. I think the department can, however, possibly even encourage immigration at a greater rate at this stage. There are, however, certain economic features in our country which have to be taken note of and which have to be taken into account, but this is not uncommon for any country. Most countries in the world, particularly those in the Western World, practise this particular procedure by keeping their finger on the pulse of the economic situation in the country. In so far as we are concerned, we have read the report very carefully and we have found it a very comprehensive and an extremely interesting report presented as usual by the secretary with a tremendous amount of information very clearly and very illustratively set out. We are always pleased indeed to receive a report of this nature which enables hon. members to acquaint themselves fully with the affairs of the department. I hope the situation will improve soon and that the number of immigrants to our country will begin to flow as rapidly as they have been during the last few years.

Mr. Chairman, this is a very important Vote, for if the policy with regard to immigration is wrong, it could have catastrophic consequences for our country. The hon. the Minister and his department must find it a great consolation that the Opposition participated so meagrely in the discussion. Therefore they can be assured that there is nothing to say that can testify against the good immigration policy which is being followed at present. I listened to what the hon. member for Jeppe had to say and I got the impression that towards the end he was slipping in very quietly and very stealthily. We also note that the hon. members of that party are also stealthily slipping away from each other. They will probably stealthily slip in again with the PRP.

†The hon. member for Parktown is an ex-editor of The Star and when these people use words, they surely append a meaning to the words, a meaning they intend the words to have.

I could not help thinking about Alice in Wonderland. If my memory serves me well, there was a caterpillar in the story which used the expression: “Words mean what I want them to mean.” Therefore, when the hon. member used the words “sensitive people leaving South Africa”, I thought I should look up in the dictionary what “sensitive” really means. I shall quote the meaning from the Shorter Oxford Dictionary: “Sensitive” means “endowed with the faculty of sensation; also having sense or perception, but not reason.” There is also a further meaning to the word which reads: “People readily altered or affected by some influence specified or implied.”

*The hon. member used the correct word. That word provides us with the true reason why the people to whom he referred, are leaving South Africa. They are indeed sensitive, but not sensible, people. There is a difference between “sensitive” and “sensible”. Those people who are so sensitive, will never feel at home in any part of the world. They are nomadic drifters, people without whom South Africa is better off.

A further aspect which I wish to discuss …

You are living in a dream world.

Mr. Chairman, I think we can manage quite well without the able words of the hon. member for Parktown. This will be no great loss to us. An aspect which I wish to deal with briefly, is the fact that immigrants in South Africa can make a very great contribution to the improvement of the standard of patriotism which we have at present. They can enhance the quality of our South Africanism. With regard to this aspect, there are two things to which I wish to refer. The first is that, when we look at the material contribution made by immigrants during the past 15 years—between 1961 and 1976—we realize that if we had had to train those people in this country, and if they had had to obtain their qualifications here, if they had had to obtain the knowledge which they disclosed so freely to us, here, they would have cost us at least R1 800 million during that period of 15 years. If my calculations are correct, the amount which South Africa saved herself during the past 15 years by recruiting immigrants—approximately 500 000 of them—is approximately R120 million per year. South Africa not only saved, but—as other hon. members were also quite correct in observing—they contributed to the development of the country in the sense that it became possible to a far greater extent to create job opportunities for our Black as well as White people here. Furthermore the quality of our economic life improved tremendously as a result of immigrants entering the country and brought us to where we are today.

We do not regard an immigrant as an exceptional person; not as something strange. Immigrants are in fact people who breathe just as we do. However, we should remember that they represent other cultures. Many of them come to South Africa with the covert intention of giving their best to the country, of working hard, but if things do not pan out well, of leaving again and returning to their original fatherland. It is this aspect which forces us to self-examination and to ask ourselves whether we are treating our immigrants in such a way that they will eventually choose to remain there with us in South Africa. We must understand one another very clearly on this point. On the day that immigrants receive their citizenship of this country, they are part of the country, and we must regard them as part of our country. After all, they have thrown their lot in with ours.

It is true that we South Africans, and especially the Afrikaans-speaking South Africans amongst us, are people who work hard during the day, who lead an active social life and who are fully assimilated in our own cultural environment. Consequently the urge is seldom felt to help to assimilate immigrants more thoroughly and to involve them more fully in the existing cultural activities. If we want a common fatherland, we will be compelled to assimilate these people in our community to a greater extent than we are doing at present. We cannot afford to have South Africa balkanized into cultures that do not in fact have a common feeling for South Africa. We cannot have a balkanization where the German community, the Portuguese community, the English community, the Afrikaans community, each has a different idea of what South African patriotism is. We must come to an understanding so that we can make a joint decision on what we feel South Africanism should be. There are aspects which we can learn. We have certainly not yet learned everything.

I wish to say thank you from the bottom of my heart to the immigrant who throws his lot in with us and who accepts our citizenship, because we know he could have chosen from many other parts of the world. We know this and we say to him: “Let us co-operate for the future in this country.”

However, the question is why many of the immigrants do not accept citizenship. The answer is actually a counter-question: Do we as South Africans set enough store by and are we proud enough of our own citizenship so that we can tell other people it is good to be a South African; it is the most pleasant citizenship in the world? Perhaps we should advertise to a greater extent what a privilege it is to be a South African. We must not draw our culture into a laager and keep it there. We must remember that we must allow our culture to surge forward. It must grow. It must not be encapsulated in an imaginary casing as something precious that cannot be allowed to grow. Therefore, I wish to put it that the quality of our South African community, our patriotism, will be enhanced if we take all our immigrants along with us, and tell them: “Come, it is good to be a South African. You are welcome. This is the best citizenship in the world.”

Mr. Chairman, allow me, in the first place, not only to thank all the hon. members who participated in the debate for their excellent participation, but also to thank them for their continued interest in immigration outside this House as well.

I begin with the hon. member for Parktown, who referred to the people who are leaving the country. He wants a scientific determination of why the people are in fact leaving the country. It is a very difficult, and with all due respect, an unpractical request, for as far as I know there is no country in the world which requires people at the airport or at an ordinary port to reply to such questions and to say why they are leaving their own country. So many of the people who leave the country, return again. Of course, when they return, they are inclined to do so rather quietly. In my opinion they are perhaps afraid to give the true reasons for their departure, bearing in mind that they would prejudice their position later if they should return. Therefore I am afraid that as far as this matter is concerned, I cannot hold out any promises to the hon. member.

As for the hon. member’s hardy annual, namely teachers, I can only repeat what I said last year. The department is only too willing to recruit these people if they make the necessary work applications. The hon. member will recall, however, that I pointed out last year that Natal had made a determined effort to recruit English teachers. They assisted these people, and brought them out to this country. I do not have the figures with me at the moment, but the hon. member will recall that the people who eventually remained and were of service to Natal were extremely few in number. If the departments of education of the provinces ask us to do the work, we are only too willing to be of assistance in doing so.

†The hon. member said we must recruit more skilled men. Skilled men are in fact recruited in every category where they are needed. Employers usually know that we are there and that we do the work. We are available at all times to help them, and I am sure we could be very helpful in this regard.

*The hon. member then came to the difficult question of temporary residence permits. I think the real problem—this has been my experience, too—is that a temporary residence permit sometimes expires only a few days before a permanent residence permit can be granted by my department to the holder thereof. Sometimes such a temporary permit is not renewed, or cannot be renewed. This creates a problem for my department, for when a person is not legally in this country, his application cannot be given further consideration before he has left the country or before a further extension of his temporary residence permit has been granted. Of course this is fundamentally a matter involving the permits issued by the Department of the Interior. It is within the power of my hon. colleague, the Minister of the Interior, to grant a further accommodation. However, I want to point out at once to hon. members that my hon. colleague acts in a reasonably logical way in this regard, for there are few countries, if any, which grant permanent residence to people who are temporarily in the country. I can discuss the matter with my hon. colleague again, but one cannot throw this matter entirely open. If one were to throw it entirely open, one would be creating impossible precedents, and our country could then be inundated to such an extent by “the good and the bad” that it could create unnecessary problems. However, I could discuss with the hon. the Minister of the Interior those cases concerning which my department has already stated that we are prepared to accept the person and that there are only a few technical points which still have to be cleared up.

†The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South raised this matter also under the Vote of the hon. the Minister of the Interior. I notice that he tried to play off the two departments against each other. He talked about “ver-krampte Connie” and “verligte Piet”. I want to ask a favour of the hon. member. He must never refer to me as “verligte Alwyn”, because true to type and true to our ex-President, Marthinus Steyn, we Freêstaters are neither verkramp nor verlig; we are moderates.

*I think that I have now dealt with all the points raised by the hon. member.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. Minister in all fairness whether it is not possible to introduce a system whereby his department notifies the Department of the Interior when his department will give favourable consideration to an application for permanent residence. In this way the Department of the Interior, when the applicant applies for an extension of his temporary residence permit, knows that the department of the hon. the Minister will approve of his permanent residence.

My reply to that is that we are in fact doing so. The extension of the temporary residence permit is of course a matter which rests entirely with my colleague. I am prepared to discuss with my colleague those cases in which it is clearly apparent that permanent residence can be granted to a person after a few technical points have been cleared up, to see whether we cannot find a formula to accommodate these people. As I have said, however, my colleague, the hon. the Minister of the Interior, deals with these matters in accordance with world-wide practices.

I also want to refer to the hon. member for Springs. He is the chairman of the immigration group on our side of the House and he does amazingly good work outside this House in regard to our immigration effort, particularly in regard to assimilation. I wish to agree wholeheartedly with him that we can do far more to make immigrants feel at home. A great deal is already being done by Afrikaans-speaking people, and of course by the English-speaking people as well, but as an Afrikaans-speaking person I feel that my fellow Afrikaans-speaking compatriots can do even more in this regard.

I also want to refer to the hon. member for Pretoria East. I take cognizance with appreciation of the gratitude which he displayed towards the children of immigrants who are in fact serving in the army. To tell the truth, my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Defence said only this week that there are many immigrants who are serving in the Defence Force, and that they are also reporting for national service. We appreciate this. Recently I saw a report in an English-language newspaper in which it was mentioned with appreciation that in Pietermaritzburg a tremendous number of immigrants have reported for national service. I think this is the spirit throughout the country. However, there are many problems—internationally and otherwise—if one wishes to compel an immigrant to do military or police service.

The hon. member for Kempton Park referred to integration and to assimilation, and I thank him sincerely for doing so. As far as I know, the language instruction to which he referred is being offered free of charge in the language laboratories of the Department of National Education. As regards the making available of records and cassettes to these people on a subsidized basis, I want to point out that this is a matter which rests entirely with the Department of National Education. However, I could take up the matter with the Department of National Education, because it is a matter which has merit.

The hon. member for Losberg appealed to the Press to present news relating to immigrants with more equilibrium and not to emphasize the isolated cases of people leaving the country to the detriment of our entire immigration effort. I want to agree with him wholeheartedly on that score.

The question of the amalgamation of the 1820 Settlers’ Association with the MEI was raised again this year, as it was last year. I want to tell the hon. member that at the numerous functions of this organization which I have attended throughout the country, I found that there were many people from the 1820 Settlers’ Association present at the MEI functions, and vice versa. I find the cooperation between these people quite splendid and encouraging. The question of amalgamation is a matter on which these two organizations themselves have to decide, and unfortunately I cannot therefore do anything about it. But speeches such as the one made by the hon. member for Losberg can go a long way to causing these two groups to move closer to each other.

I want to thank the hon. member for Jeppe very much for his well-balanced and appreciative speech in respect of the staff and the activities of the department. The fact that the hon. member was not aggressive shows that he truly appreciates the work of my department.

I come next to the hon. member for Pretoria West. He pointed out very effectively the saving we bring about in that the training of immigrants is paid for in other countries. He went on to say that we should not balkanize immigrants. In other words, he asked for a more effective integration of the immigrants to the existing community. On that score I am in complete agreement with him. However, we must guard against ever creating the impression amongst these people that we have a poor opinion of their own language and cultural heritage or that we want to eliminate these things in order to integrate them. We must guard against that. For the rest I am in complete agreement with him.

†I would again like to extend my sincere thanks to the two organizations, viz. the 1820 Settlers’ Association and MEI, for the very valuable work which they are doing to integrate immigrants. Their services cover a wide spectrum, but at present they excel themselves in one important field, viz. in getting new employment for immigrants who become unemployed. I would like to make a special plea to them today to make intensive efforts, apart from getting alternative work, to motivate immigrants to stay on in this country. I also want to appeal once again to the public, especially to employers, to give generous financial support to these institutions. It was my privilege during the last year to attend functions of these institutions in many parts of the country. I was at all times impressed by the calibre of those connected with the work of the MEI and the 1820 Settlers’ Association.

*Mr. Chairman, I am trying my best to keep my speech short, and therefore I do not wish to speak for very much longer. I just want to say in conclusion that the Department of Immigration is a department the work of which to a certain extent is secondary. The Government has a specific policy in respect of labour, in respect of greater opportunities which must for example be given to non-Whites, and so on. The private sector has certain requirements. They either need or do not need the technicians. Only then does my department come into the picture. As far as our activities are concerned, I shall furnish figures in a moment which will indicate that in spite of the lean period we are going through at present in respect of immigration, my department is going about its business in such a way that interest in our country remains at a high pitch. At present, however, we are being hamstrung by the shortage of work.

The question arises whether immigration is dwindling and emigration is increasing as a result of political circumstances. There are most certainly people who are leaving the country as a result of political circumstances. However, it is my sincere opinion that the greatest single factor which is at present having a detrimental effect on immigration is economic circumstances, and that the greatest number of emigrants—of course I have no scientific proof of this—who are leaving the country at the moment, are for the most part people who originally obtained permanent residence here as immigrants and who are now leaving the country again as a result of fewer job opportunities. I am referring in particular to people in the motor industry, in the building industry and in other industries. I am basing my statements, inter alia, on the fact that the number of emigrants had already begun to increase since 1975, i.e. when we had not yet experienced the Soweto riots and difficult economic circumstances.

I have every confidence that if the work situation improves—everything indicates that it will improve soon—we shall not experience any more problems with immigration.

I just want to refer to the interest which exists on the basis of the enquiries we have received at our overseas offices pursuant to advertisements which we had published. As hon. members know, there are certain countries, including West Germany, where our activities are extremely limited as far as advertisements are concerned. We may only advertise specific vacancies and may not place a general advertisement. My department has also curtailed its advertising campaign in Britain to a tremendous extent. In spite of that we have, from January to May of this year, received provisional questionnaires from 5 807 prospective immigrants. Of those applications we have accepted 1 193 and rejected 4 415. We have gone about this selectively. Some of the applications were not acceptable to us. A factor which played a great part here is the fact that we could not find employment for all these people. But the result indicates nevertheless that my department is wide awake and that its machinery is functioning smoothly. As soon as matters over which we have no control at the moment return to normal, we shall be able to increase this figure at once. I also want to point out to hon. members that in the first quarter of this year it was possible to find employment for 2 982 economically active immigrants without much trouble. No trouble is being experienced in finding employment for those who have since entered the country. Therefore our efforts are so closely co-ordinated with the requirements in the country that employment can be found within a reasonable period of time for the people whom we allowed to come out to South Africa.

The fact that we are finding it harder to recruit immigrants and that we are not able to bring in as many as we should like to, is not something which is unique to South Africa. In this regard I want to refer hon. members to Australia again, as I did in a speech earlier this year. It is true that, not in the sphere of internal politics but of international politics, Australia has ho problems so far. Nevertheless they are faring much worse than we are. Let me quote a short passage from The Star of 29 June 1976.1 am referring to a report which this newspaper took over from the Washington Post News Service. The report read, inter alia, as follows—

New Zealand has experienced precisely the same problems over more or less the same period. It is therefore not something which is unique to this country only. On the contrary. We who have more problems, are faring better than other Western countries with fewer problems. On this note I wish to conclude.

Once again I want to thank everyone who participated in the debate for their contributions and interest. Many of the hon. members, I know, also displayed an interest in the assimilating organizations outside this House, and for that, too, I am very grateful. Before I resume my seat, I want, in conclusion, to thank the Secretary of the department, Mr. Ellis, my parliamentary officer, and the entire staff of the Department of Immigration for their excellent service and pleasant co-operation during the past year.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No. 39 and S.W.A. Vote No. 24,— “Water Affairs”:

Mr. Chairman, first of all I would like to apologize on behalf of the hon. member for Mooi River for his absence today. However, he sends his regards to the hon. Minister and the officials of the department. He told me that he was quite satisfied to leave the discussion of the Vote in my able hands this afternoon. [Interjections.]

†I shall try as far as possible to carry out the wishes of our group this afternoon. The hon. the Leader of the House need not look at me with such surprise; I do know what water is and I also know what to do with it.

Are you speaking again?

Let me say to the hon. the Minister at the beginning that the fact that we have saved ten minutes on each of his two votes does not mean that we consider him to be royal game, but simply that we consider these as important departments and as highlights of the administration of the Government. The importance of these Votes is tied up with the provision of water and timber, two natural products we cannot do without. When we look at the top staff he has, we know that the administration of water affairs, certainly, is in good hands. The Secretary of the department, Dr. Kriel, has earned international respect and acknowledgement and in our opinion he runs a very good department and a tight administration.

The importance of this department is revealed in the White Papers which are tabled in the House and which show that the department is concerned in work involving expenditure of hundreds of millions of rand. For the first time this year these White Papers have been referred to a Select Committee for purposes of information and of discussion. We want to congratulate the hon. the Minister on taking up a suggestion which has been made here over the years and to say to him that we appreciate this step which, we believe, can only be in the best interests of the administration of his department and the running of Parliament. We are confident that in the years to come the members of that Select Committee will come to have a thorough knowledge of what is being done by his department and will be better able to ask questions in the Select Committee and to debate matters in depth there rather than in this debate in the House where we are dealing with a serious matter such as this in the glare of publicity.

I must congratulate the department on their reports that they have now got up to date. We have now also received the report for the year 1975-’76. Although a little bit late for this debate, we found the report useful and we are glad that we have now caught up and will in the future be able to deal with up-to-date information.

To illustrate my point on the importance of the department, one merely has to look at two of the White Papers that were presented by the hon. the Minister. The first one I want to look at is White Paper L of 1977, which deals with the Riviersonderend-Berg River scheme. In this report we find that the cost of the Theewaterskloof dam and the Fransch Hoek mountain tunnel are now estimated at R42 million. Only last year we had a White Paper in which the cost was estimated at R32 million. This means an escalation of R10 million in one year. If to that R42 million is added the cost of the land, which is now estimated at R8 million, plus the cost of the Assegaaibos dam and the Jonkershoek tunnel, which is another R50 million, we come to a total of R100 million for this particular project. Incidentally, the cost of the Assegaaibos dam-Jonkershoek tunnel project has escalated from R28 million in 1973 to R50 million in 1977.

At the same time, in White Paper Q—’77 which deals with the Simonsberg canal, which is only a part of the same Riviersonderend-Berg River scheme, approval is sought for expenditure on this proposed work at a provisionally estimated cost of R30 million. It is true that the White Paper states that it is possible that this amount could be decreased by other bodies taking responsibility for some of the secondary distribution, but with the cost escalation which we have seen in past years, we believe that this R30 million could still be a conservative figure. We must remember that this water is almost entirely for irrigation. The total cost comes to 16,15 cents per cubic metre. The White Paper indicates that there will be a tariff charge, and that this is to be in the region of 4 cents per cubic metre, before distribution costs are counted. The cost-benefit ratio is 1,0 which seems very, very low. I wonder if the hon. the Minister will not give us some further information regarding this cost-benefit ratio figure. I would appreciate it if the hon. the Minister would tell us how he has arrived at that figure and whether he believes that this is in fact economic.

The total amount of capital recovered is, according to the White Paper, going to be 45 cents. I take it that that should be “45%”, but on page 18 of the White Paper it is stated—

I believe that it should be “45%”.

That is correct.

However, to recover 45% of the capital expenditure over a period of 45 years is an example of the slow rate of recovery of the capital expenditure. It is this which is resulting in the write-off of capital expenditure which we face in this House year after year.

White Paper R of 1977 deals with the Tugela-Vaal project and merely brings up to date the total cost of the scheme to R40 million. In table 7 on page 6 of the report one reads that the expected demand for water in the year 2000 will be 3 562 million cubic metres per annum, and that the total dependable yield, in other words the rainfall in that catchment, will in the year 2000 only be 2 770 million cubic metres per annum. If one considers these figures, one cannot help wondering: Where is South Africa going? What lies ahead of us in our efforts to keep ahead of the water demand? Are we going to be able to meet the demand for water in the year 2000 and perhaps even later?

The cost escalation has added R10 million to the Theewaterskloofdam-Fransch Hoek mountain project since 1976. If this figure is to be added across the board to departmental projects, it is quite apparent that the projects planned will have to be shelved. Many of them are going to have to be shelved for economic reasons. This will again lead to a further lagging behind and a further escalation in costs. When one considers that all the easy storage dams have already been built, we are left—I see the hon. the Minister nods his head—with the complicated ones, the ones which are going to be more expensive, those which are going to involve transfers between catchments and similar difficult schemes. The problem than becomes quite apparent to the hon. the Minister and I am sure it is apparent to this Committee as to what exactly we are facing in the realm of water during the next 50 to 60 years. The hon. the Minister must tell us today when the point of no return is going to be reached and when priority is going to have to be given to his department at all costs. South Africa cannot do without water; it might be necessary to shelve other enterprises and other expenditure in order to provide this water. By the year 2000 every drop of water in the country will be committed, even the water that has to be transferred from one catchment to another. What are we going to do then?

I want to compliment the hon. the Minister and his department on the report of the Water Research Commission, especially when we read of the mathematical models of catchments that simulate run-off which have helped them at least to arrange that the planning would be related to reality. When we discover, however, that only 8% of the total precipitation enters the flow of our rivers, we realize that we have to do something else. What can we do? As the report indicates we shall have to look to catchment management in the first place. What are we doing in regard to catchment management to allow more than 8% of the water to flow into the rivers? We have to deal with the storage of the water and with the tremendous cost that goes with it. We also have to look to repurification and to the re-use of water.

As an absolute last resort, one which I predict is going to be the most difficult, when all else fails, we shall have to look to the desalination of sea water. This, of course, will be the last because it is possibly the most expensive remedy. What plans does the hon. the Minister have in this regard? Have they looked at this? Have they thought about the five points that I have made? Have they thought about the use of sea water, for example, in sewage reticulation at the coastal areas? We are aware that there are many problems in this regard, for example, corrosion problems, but we want to know whether anything has been done in this sphere. We wonder if the hon. the Minister should not have taken this opportunity—perhaps he intends to do so—of the new cities growing up on our sea-board, i.e. at Saldanha and Richards Bay, to use sea water for any purpose. Has the hon. the Minister gone into this problem? Can we really start thinking in terms of using sea water? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to follow up on what has just been discussed by the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South, i.e. the question as to the extent in which the department is geared to provide for our water requirements for a longer term in the future. In view of this I want to say that we have been interested to note the work done by the Water Research Commission. I think that the commission occupies a very important place in the activities of the Department of Water Affairs at this moment. Particularly with a view to a reply to the question which the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South asked, I want to maintain that the commission will probably make a very major contribution in the future. We are very pleased that as far as the activities of the commission are concerned, increasing emphasis is today being laid on the co-operation of the department and the Water Research Commission with interested bodies or persons.

According to the report of the commission, it is going to be the policy in future to try and involve bodies or persons who have an interest in specific projects as far as possible. It will also, provide, as it were, that a specific project will not hang in the air, but that the bodies or persons concerned will exercise practical control over it and that there will also be a further expansion of the project.

In this regard one calls to mind, for instance, the water reclamation project at Windhoek where co-operation was sought and found between the Windhoek City Council, the National Institute for Water Research and the South African Institute for Medical Research. I mention this single illustration because we are aware of the fact that not only is it an important project, but that the project is already at a fairly advanced stage. We have also gained considerable experience there already. I think it is an ideal for which we should always strive and I should like to express my greatest appreciation for the emphasis which is being laid on co-operation today. We are pleased that a number of important projects with a view to the re-use of water, as well as the reclamation of chemicals in the textile industry, have already been completed. We are also pleased about the projects which have already been completed with a view to desalination of brackish water and sea water. Since the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South put a question in connection with the future provision of water to Saldanha and Richards Bay, I think that these very projects—projects which have already been completed and by means of which important knowledge was acquired— will make an important contribution towards the provision of water if the necessity exists and if it is economically justifiable. I note that according to estimates, approximately R3,4 million has been spent on this research during the 1976-’77 financial year. Not only does this indicate to me the considerable dimensions which this research is already assuming, it also indicates the important place it occupies in the activities of the department.

Furthermore I want to mention with appreciation the contacts which the hon. the Minister and his department have made with Governments of other countries with the purpose of collecting knowledge and gaining co-operation, as far as possible, of course, with a view to the advantages which this may entail for us. In 1975 there was an Afrikaans-Israeli symposium in which delegates from South Africa participated. This was followed up by a visit to South Africa by the Israeli Secretary for Water Affairs, Mr. Kantor. During Mr. Kantor’s visit, special attention was paid to the possibility of co-operation between South Africa and Israel in the sphere of water research. As far as I am concerned, it is general knowledge that in a country like Israel, which also experiences unique water problems, a considerable amount of research has already been done, and exceptional progress has been made as far as utilizing available water resources is concerned, and even regards utilizing water which would otherwise be considered brackish, useless or unusable. Therefore, since good relations exist between South Africa and Israel, we hope that the existing co-operation will be extended further to the benefit of both of the countries concerned.

We also took cognizance of certain specialist consultants, like Prof. Berger of the University of Massachusetts and Dr. Bachmat of the University of Jerusalem. Prof. Bachmat is a specialist consultant on soil and water research.

If we can further extend contracts of this kind, and can mobilize the expert knowledge possessed by the Governments concerned and the individual experts, and can link it up with our own research, then this can only bode well for the future. Therefore we want to welcome it wholeheartedly.

When we look at the budget and note that only R10 million more than last year is being voted for the Department of Water Affairs, and if we also bear in mind that the Department of Water Affairs is involved in a variety of exceptionally large-scale projects, we realize—if we also bear in mind the tremendous cost increases in recent years— that the Department of Water Affairs is faced with special problems and that the hon. the Minister and his secretary probably do not always find it so easy to keep existing undertakings under way and at the same time to do justice to the essential, urgent requirements which arise from time to time. We wish them everything of the best in that difficult task and we can only hope that, with a view to the provision of water in our country and the expansion and development of our water supply, times will soon change for them and that more funds will be available for this purpose.

In the few minutes which still remain to me, I just want to say that I hope that with a view to the future, serious attention will also be given to the development of certain projects which are still, as it were, lying and waiting to receive special attention. I find in my own constituency in the Vanrhynsdorp and Vredendal area that people tell one that they always farmed next to the river in the old days, but at the moment they find that the lands above the canal are just as good if not better than those which they cultivated below the canal and nearer to the river. For instance, there are much fewer problems with brackish water than are experienced next to the river in very large areas. I want to express the hope that the department will give attention to this matter. Personally, I think that there can still be considerable development of the Olifants River irrigation area, especially if we can succeed in storing the available water resources more effectively or on a larger scale by building a dam on the Upper Olifants River, and taking the development a little further. I want to express the hope that in time, perhaps on a small scale, research into the utilization of water in areas which actually lie beyond the irrigation area will be carried out in consultation with the Department of Agricultural Technical Services, so that when necessary and possible, we shall be able to initiate that development.

I recently went to take a look at the Aspoort scheme area which was previously more in the limelight. I have always thought that it is not an area which we should write off and that we shall eventually have to look at it once again, even if only at a part of it. We shall have to look at it, especially with a view to better provision of agricultural land for the Coloured population. It strikes one that this is a part of the world which is actually being neglected, in the sense that people who lived there previously and tried to make a living, simply moved away, due to factors beyond their control. Today those houses are deserted. I want to express the hope that in time it will be possible for the hon. the Minister and the department to look at that area once again and to do the provisional work in co-operation with other State departments in order to determine what can be produced there in the cheapest way and how that scheme can be brought into being in the cheapest way. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Piketberg will pardon me if I do not pursue the same topic he discussed in his speech. I want to avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate the Secretary and the department on the annual report of the department. I think it is a well-prepared report and a particularly interesting one. Even for us as laymen it makes easy reading. It is a pity that the excellent photographs of water schemes we have grown accustomed to seeing in the reports, can no longer be published because of the financial implications. One hopes that it will be possible in due course to publish similar photographs once again as they definitely add lustre to the reports.

I am particularly pleased about the addition of the new chapter 11 to the report, in which an analysis is given of the cost of water from Government water schemes and the yield to the Government from such schemes. I found the basis for calculating the unit cost of water from Government schemes particularly interesting. The Commission of Inquiry into Water Matters, the report of which was tabled in 1970, found, inter alia, that it was desirable to utilize water, because of its being a very scarce commodity in this country, to an absolute optimum and also at a realistic price. With reference to agriculturalists in particular, I think that this finding, together with optimal soil utilization, forms the essence of water consumption in our country. That is why it is so absolutely essential for there to be close liaison at all times amongst the Department of Water Affairs, the Department of Agricultural Technical Services, the Department of Agricultural Economics and Marketing, and, in particular, the various agricultural control boards as well. I may come back to this later on to say why this is so important.

In our country we do not have something like production control of agricultural products. Ours is a free economy and a man may produce what he likes. No restrictions are imposed on him. He has, in other words, a free hand as far as the production of agricultural products is concerned. The point I actually want to make is that everyone in the agricultural industry must co-operate, especially as far as water is concerned, to ensure that production at the various schemes is such that it is possible for the entrepreneur to pay a realistic price for his water. I should like to repeat that my plea amounts to optimal soil utilization coupled with optimal water utilization. We shall not dispute the fact that at one time water was wasted on a large scale in our country, particularly in the agricultural industry. It is definitely necessary for all these departments to co-operate in order to achieve the ultimate objective of optimal soil utilization coupled with optimal water utilization.

I want to proceed by referring to the Commission of Inquiry into the Marketing Act and its recommendation, on which I should like to dwell, that an annual agricultural conference be held. I am mentioning this recommendation because it was the view of the commission at that stage that all interested bodies or persons should meet annually in order to discuss all matters relating to production, prices, etc. I think it is very essential for the hon. the Minister of Agriculture and the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs to meet each other in this regard possibly to include the Department of Water Affairs in a conference of this kind in order to ensure in this way that the products produced at the various schemes, are produced in a way that will render possible the achievement of the ultimate object of optimal soil utilization coupled with optimal water utilization.

It is fitting today to congratulate the hon. the Minister on his full dams. One is particularly grateful for the fact that there were no excessive rains this year and that the hon. the Minister did not have to contend with floods to any large extent. Nevertheless one is also grateful to our Creator for our full dams.

In these days of plenty I should like to exchange a few ideas about subterranean water. It was also interesting to read in the report about the research studies that were conducted in respect of ground water. It is true that the hon. the Minister already has control over subterranean water in certain areas. What I am concerned about however, is that in certain areas, especially in the Karoo, where ground water is used for the irrigation of, for instance, lucent, the water may not be put to the most effective use and that too much water may perhaps be taken from beneath the ground. I have been wondering whether the time has not arrived for studies to be undertaken especially in connection with the cultivation of lucem in the Karoo. I want to say at once that it is very convenient for a farmer, if he does not have other water at his disposal, to cultivate a small area of lucem by using subterranean water so as to build up his own fodder bank in that way. In that case it should be ensured, however, that such ground water is not removed from the ground to the optimum extent. In other words, what I actually want to say, is that there should always be a certain amount of water in reserve. If a borehole has a capacity of—I am going to use the old terms—supplying 10 000 gallons per hour, surely it is unwise to take 10 000 gallons per hour from that borehole day after day. At least a third, preferably 50%, should be kept in reserve at all times. I am concerned, especially in these days of plenty, that we are taking too much water from beneath the ground. Studies have been undertaken at Grootfontein Agricultural College which clearly indicate that it does not pay to irrigate lucem with turbine water. It is more profitable to buy the lucem. However, it is convenient for a Karoo farmer living in the remote Karoo, to build up his own fodder bank by using water from a borehole. For that reason I am advocating that the hon. the Minister investigate the matter of making all turbine water, i.e. all water removed by means of turbines, subject to a certain degree of control in due course. If one reads the studies in connection with ground water, one sees that it is possible for farmers to be of assistance and to play a major role in regard to these studies.

I think it will be possible to select a nucleus of farmers in every district to report on all the boreholes on the farms concerned every year. They can report on water levels. It is interesting to note that we have just had five very good years in the Karoo, but that it is only now that we notice a rise in the levels of boreholes. In fact, there are boreholes the water levels of which have risen by as much as 17 feet in the past year. This is very interesting. I advocate, however, that a nucleus of farmers be selected in each district to assist the Minister and his department with research in connection with ground water. In my opinion this can be extremely helpful. In respect of every new subsidized borehole which is sunk, it should be compulsory for the person sinking that borehole to provide the department with specifications concerning that borehole. I think this may be extremely useful to the department in its future research in connection with ground water.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Graaff-Reinet said many things that I completely agree with. His plea for the optimal utilization of water resources is something that is going to concern us more and more in the future. I also agree with him about the situation in regard to the over-pumping of underground water. Obviously reserves must be kept as high as possible, and I agree with him that there is over-pumping of this nature. He started off his speech by congratulating the department on a very good annual report. Perhaps I should add to this my congratulations to the department on two reports, because we are not only considering one report. I say this because the 1975 report was only tabled a very short while ago. Last year we let the hon. the Minister off the hook because he was a new Minister. Perhaps, however, I may be permitted to say that we shall forget about it, that we shall regard it as water under the bridge. However, we hope that we shall never again be confronted with a situation where we have to consider two annual reports at the same time, as we are now doing.

Two for the price of one.

I am not going to follow previous speakers. I have a bit of special pleading to do this afternoon. The matter I wish to raise with the hon. the Minister is a matter which I raised with the hon. the Minister’s predecessor in 1975. This concerns the possibility of putting an open water canal right through the middle of Etosha National Park in South West Africa.

The idea behind this projected scheme is to bring water from the Kunene River down to the cattle areas north of Windhoek. The hon. the Minister may be well aware of the fact that conservationists believe that if an open canal does cut the reserve in two the results could be disastrous. The recent history of this national park is not a very happy one. At one time Etosha was the largest game reserve in the world. However, in 1971, as a result of the Odendaal plan which had to do with water resources as well …

It was not a game reserve at all. It was a nature conservation area.

A nature conservation area. I stand corrected. However, there is not much difference. It was the largest nature conservation area in the world. It was cut from 60 000 square kilometres to 12 000 square kilometres. At the same time it was planned that power and water from the Kunene River would follow the border between the new game reserve as opposed to the nature conservation area, and the adjacent homeland area. But the plans were changed. Plans went ahead for pylons carrying power right through the middle of the park. This was a decision much criticized by conservationists. Now it seems to be becoming clear that an open canal built by the department might follow the power line right through the park. From the department’s report for the year ended 31 March 1975 we read that in that year detailed planning was carried out for the construction of a canal scheme from the Kunene at Calueque to the Khan River near Ameib. In the latest report for the period ending 31 March 1976 we read that the strip survey of the supply route of the north western water project from the southern boundary of the Etosha game reserve via Omaruru down to the proposed Ameib dam on the Khan River via Usakos was completed at a cost of R261 000.1 think this means that a decision has been taken. It looks to me as though it is intended that a canal will go right through the game reserve. If this is the case and if a decision has been taken to do this, I must urge the hon. the Minister to think again. In 1975 the then Minister of Water Affairs gave me the assurance that it was not the intention to construct a canal which would interfere with the ecology of the Etosha Pan. He said—

Now, with a situation of silence, I think it is time for the hon. the Minister to come clean. We all accept that it is highly desirable and necessary to bring water from the north, but I think we must look at the implications as far as nature conservation is concerned if this water is canalized through Etosha. If a pipeline were laid it would be a different matter. I can have no quarrel with that at all. But a canal is condemned by every conservationist or conservation organization that has made any comment on the matter, and I think most of them have. Some time ago I understand that the executive committee of the South West African Administration asked the Water Affairs Department to go into the costing of piping the water. The initial costing seemed to indicate that something in the region of an additional R50 million would be needed. This is a tremendous sum, but conservationists seem to think that this price must be paid if necessary.

I should like to acquaint the House with some of the arguments advanced by conservationists. Firstly, and obviously, it would cut the national park in two. This is obviously not desirable, but this in itself need not be disastrous. It is the result of this splitting which could be very serious. Firstly, it would interfere with the migration and seasonal movements of game. To upset an eco-system in this manner could have immediate and very unfortunate results. Migration is essential to the breeding patterns of certain species and the grazing habits of others. The long-term effect of such limitation of movement could be a deterioration in numbers and quality of game. The balance of nature is a very delicate one. An unfenced canal would be exposed to damage by animals, to pollution, to contamination and even, I believe, to infection. Anthrax, a disease fatal to most animals and human beings as well, is sometimes prevalent in the park. Infected water passing through farms could cause untold damage. The same applies to bilharzia and malaria. I know rivers do this already. The cost of fighting such infection could be enormous and would have to be considered if any cost comparison was made between a pipeline and a canal. Some conservationists are worried that heavy concentrations of game along an open canal would lead to denudation of the pasture for some distance on either side. A fenced canal on the other hand would be expensive as well as being an eyesore. Again, it would obviously stop migration. The cost would be very high indeed. I believe elephant-proof fencing at the moment runs into something like R4 000 a kilometre.

The Etosha game reserve is unique. Once destroyed in any way, it could never be restored. When the details of this scheme were first revealed, there was an uproar in the Press, both here in South Africa and in South West Africa. It was described as a “rape of the country.” The Nature Conservation Board of the South West Africa Administration protested strongly against the invasion of a park which it controlled. The Nature Conservation Board backed up this protest with resolutions condemning any action which could have so deleterious an effect on the future of the park. They regarded it as quite beyond bounds. The South West African branch of the Wild Life Protection Society of South Africa also made strong protests. It was universally felt that canals and pumping stations would rob the park of its unique character. It was felt that tourism would be adversely affected with a consequent drop in revenue.

I hope the die has not already been cast and that a decision has not already been made. I think we are all well aware of the urgent necessity of providing adequate water supplies for South West Africa, probably from the Kunene River, but before the final decision is taken on a scheme as important as this, it is imperative that we give deep thought to the preservation, however costly, of natural resources of wild life which, once destroyed, are completely irreplaceable.

I can only hope that the hon. the Minister will stand up and say to me that the canal is not going right through the middle of the Etosha Park. That would be a very pleasant surprise to me. I think he would pleasantly surprise many people. If he does that, he will make me very happy indeed, but if the decision goes the other way, I hope the hon. the Minister will reconsider it.

Mr. Chairman, I want to talk very briefly about a problem which the Hartbeespoort Dam has to deal with at the moment. This dam is the artery of the progressive, intensive agricultural activities in the Brits area, one of the finest constituencies in South Africa. However, the dam is also the source of water of the most successful economic growth point in the Republic of South Africa as far as border industries are concerned. At the same time it is also the holiday and recreational resort …

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member for Brits whether he has ever heard of the Hammarsdale growth point?

The difference between myself and that hon. member is that I understand what I hear, but that he does not understand what he hears.

The source of water of this successful growth point in the Brits district, is of course the Hartbeespoort Dam. There are holiday resorts at the dam for the thousands of people who rush there from Pretoria and the Witwatersrand in order to enjoy themselves there.

When this dam is full, its surface area covers 2 240 ha. Its shoreline is no less than 34 kilometres long. It is almost a fairyland of water with magnificent natural surroundings like the beautiful, majestic, age-old Magaliesberg, which is situated in my constituency. It is no wonder that this magnificent dam has become an attraction to and paradise for the anglers, yachtsmen, ski boat and power boat enthusiasts and the thousands of holiday makers who stream to the dam just as the water does.

That magnificent dam is now faced with a terrible threat, namely the water hyacinth plague. [Interjections.] That hon. member of the PRP who is interrupting me now, is just a different kind of plague.

It is a plague caused by a green plant which is found in dams throughout the country. Unfortunately, that beautiful blue flower has become a flower of the devil in my dam. Therefore, the devil has really been let loose, as it were. Everyone is making speeches about this problem, writing articles in newspapers, or wherever, and even attacking the Department of Water Affairs because according to them, the department is virtually neglecting its duty because it cannot control the water hyacinth problem. It is a grave problem we are dealing with. This floating water-plant is virtually indestructible. The plant produces segments which in turn break into pieces—I see the hon. members of the Opposition looking at me; that is almost the same process they are going through, but it is not happening as quickly as these plants reproduce naturally. I think that the rapid growth of the water hyacinths over the past few years is primarily due to the overcast weather and humidity which are being experienced. It is the phosphates and nitrates in particular in the water which flow into the dam that provides the nutrients which induce such prolific growth in these plants. These nutrients comes from the sewage purification works of the Witwatersrand as well as from the heavily fertilized mealie lands along the banks. This is why we are faced with such a great problem there today. It is interesting to know that the phosphate content of the water has already increased 1½ times over a period of three years. The phosphate content of the dam is no less than 120 times as much as it was in 1928.

Let me say immediately that this is a very difficult problem and that the department has done everything in its power to control it. Of course, various methods of combating this problem are used in overseas countries. Firstly there is the spraying of the water hyacinth with certain chemical herbicides. This method was also used at the Hartbeespoort Dam. I think that the hon. the Minister will probably let us know how successful this was. Of course they have to go about it very carefully otherwise the fish-breeding would be adversely affected.

Another method which is used, is cutting up the water hyacinth plants. This is done by means of a machine mounted on a boat which cuts the plants into pieces. This has not really given effective results either. It is also a method which is used abroad and which has been applied here to a certain extent. There is also a biological method of combating this problem by means of which insects or other animals are used to destroy the hyacinth plants. This is a method which has not yet been used much in South Africa. Perhaps the authorities are still engaged in research in that sphere. A fourth method is using the plants as a source of compost and animal feed.

Of course, it is easy to talk about the methods which are used abroad to combat the water hyacinth plant. However, when they are applied in South Africa, it is something quite different. The water hyacinth problem in our country has a background which must be taken into consideration. As far as the Hartbeespoort Dam is concerned, I want to say that the whole area of the dam is in fact ecologically diseased. One cannot simply apply these control methods slavishly. The local circumstances must be taken into consideration. There are certain ecological problems which must be dealt with in a scientific manner. When the problem cannot be solved immediately, people must not expect the authorities to simply use an instant solution. That is why I am sometimes so pleased that there are bodies like the Department of Water Affairs, the Department of Agricultural Technical Services, the CSIR, the SABS, the Water Research Commission which one of the previous speakers also spoke about, as well as the universities and certain teams which have been appointed, who are all co-operating in order to co-ordinate this research, as it were.

People may perhaps say that there is not sufficient co-ordination. I think that a project leader should be appointed in order to carry out the project with which the people at the Hartbeespoort Dam are involved in an effective way. I think that the hon. the Minister should do everything in his power to ensure that we achieve more effective co-ordination in that sphere. I know that the department is co-ordinating all the various bodies but the people in this area want a great deal of attention to be paid to this problem. In order to illustrate how this plague has increased there, I want to quote a report in this excellent newspaper, the Brits-Pos. [Interjections.] Yes, Brits is a very privileged name. It is the only place in South Africa where one can be pro-Brits (the British) and still be pro-NP. The report states—

Nevertheless, we should not be too critical of the Department of Water Affairs. It is an extremely difficult problem.

Go easy on the honey.

No, I will not use too much honey. The bees also take advantage of the beautiful flowers at the Hartbeespoort Dam. If the hon. member needs honey, I shall let him have a supply of that honey. I am saying these things because I feel that there has been unfair criticism of the Department of Water Affairs. Approximately R57 000 has already been spent over the past year in order to combat this hyacinth plague.

That is not all. This problem must be approached in a scientific manner. A great deal of information and scientific knowledge has already been collected but it must be co-ordinated. At the beginning we were concerned with theoretical speculations, but when we want to apply something in practice, we must know what the consequences are going to be. One must consider economic ecological aspects before one tackles the problem. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Brits has succeeded in his characteristically ingenious way to associate the segments of the water hyacinth with the political segments on the opposite side of this House. I want to tell the hon. member for Brits that the only thing that will obviate this problem will be to find a market for the hyacinth.

To begin with, I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister and the department on the fine progress made over the past year with the P. K. le Roux Dam, so much so that it was possible to complete the dam, but for a few minor works, prior to the anticipated date of completion. This may be a fitting stage for me to pay tribute to the previous Minister of Water Affairs for having had the vision at the time to give the undertaking in this House that the dam would be completed in July 1977. The present Minister and the department succeeded in having the dam completed even before that date. We are very grateful for this and the people outside take cognizance of the fact.

I am concerned about the long-term consequences of the ceiling placed on the availability of funds for water projects in our country in recent years. I realize that the present economic climate is the factor responsible for this. Each department inevitably needs more funds as the country develops. It must be borne in mind, however, that there are always priorities. For instance, when I think of the components of the infrastructure of our country, like communication facilities, roads, transport, etc., it seems possible to me for us to continue using the existing, although possibly inadequate, facilities and nevertheless maintain consistent growth at most places in our country.

The provision of additional water resources, however, is essential for the continued growth of most sectors of the national economy in South Africa. We must guard against any feeling of overconfidence which may arise because of the fact that we have had particularly good rainfall over the past few years. We must realize that periods of drought will be experienced again, and if we have allowed a backlog to develop by our not having tackled projects in the meantime, we may be faced with a situation of our not being able to make up the leeway readily.

The consumption of water in the future, is influenced by a number of factors. In this regard I think of the increase in numbers and the improvement in the standard of living of the Blacks and Coloureds of South Africa in particular. In addition there is the increase in irrigation requirements, also as regards the industrialization and urbanization of the South African national economy. As can be deduced from water projects which have been tackled in recent years, these schemes are growing in magnitude, especially where water is transferred from one catchment area to another. Consequently these schemes cannot be built within a short period of time. The construction of large water schemes takes anything from five to ten years, and sometimes even longer. Therefore, it is not possible to provide these schemes overnight when a need for water arises. If we allow a backlog to develop in this regard, we shall have the situation in the foreseeable future that we shall have to vote funds only for large schemes which may suddenly become essential to bring relief to critical points. In that case it may happen that other projects which are in the interests of the country, will have to be delayed. Such delays may subsequently even cause bottlenecks in certain sections of our national economy.

The largest development on the right bank of the Orange River will take place in the Plooysburg region.

Which side is the right-hand side?

The right-hand side is the side immediately below the P. K. le Roux Dam, the part on the Free State side. Plooysburg is situated in the Cape Province, of course. If one stands on the dam wall looking downstream, it is to one’s right. A long feed canal has to be used to provide the Plooysburg area with water from the P. K. le Roux Dam at Petrusville. It is necessary for the construction of this canal to be expedited even at this stage. However, funds are required for this. On the left bank of the Orange River, immediately below the P. K. Ie Roux Dam, a large quantity of land, apart from the A lands—the good lands—of doubtful suitability is still available for irrigation. If the necessary funds can be made available, the necessary research can be undertaken into more effective agricultural methods, and possibly into more effective irrigation methods as well. By these means these lands may possibly be rendered usable. This affords the Department of Agricultural Technical Services the opportunity to do fruitful research. The piece of land on the left bank of the river, immediately below the P. K. le Roux Dam, can be served by the left bank canal, with the resultant lower unit costs of getting the water to the lands. Due to increasing costs, and due to the fact that water projects have to be of an ever-growing magnitude in order to be able to meet the ever-increasing demand, unit costs for providing new resources are becoming higher and higher. Nothing much can probably be done about this.

But a very important contributory factor in this regard is that the period for the completion of new schemes is something extended over an unnecessarily long period due to the curtailment of funds. Consequently the completion costs escalate due to overheads for the additional periods taken up by construction. Funds should be made available so that a start may be made as soon as possible with larger new projects, for example, the Torquay Dam. We must see that the backlog does not assume such proportions that we shall eventually be unable to make up the leeway.

In addition to the question of funds there is something else closely connected to the matter which adversely affects the functions of the department in that it causes certain problems with regard to the provision of staff. In spite of the bursaries which have been available to engineering students in recent years, the department is still experiencing a shortage in this regard. For instance, there was a decrease in the number of applications for bursaries this year. This year only 30 bursaries were awarded as against the normal annual number of 100 and more. For the future activities of the department a much larger number of students will have to be trained in engineering, hydrology, geo-hydrology and in administration. The department is experiencing a shortage of people trained in these fields. There is a particularly great shortage of engineering technicians. Most technicians leave the service of the department after completing their training at technical colleges. Serious consideration will have to be given to the salary scales of these people. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the privilege of having pure water which flows at the opening of a tap, the privilege of being able to bath in drinking water, is a luxury that few people elsewhere in the world can afford. It is also a luxury that we in South Africa are inclined to take too much for granted. However, with the population increase both here in South Africa and elsewhere in the world, water will become more and more precious. I believe it will in due course become even more precious than oil, because it is such an important life-sustaining natural resource, a resource the supply of which is very limited indeed in some countries. It is so important that water conservation was even discussed at the United Nations in March this year. Therefore, I can well see that we, with our large numbers of independent homelands will in due course realize the importance of participating in discussions of this kind. We will have to go into the allocation of our water resources here in South Africa to a greater and greater extent in the not too distant future.

This has already been discussed in relation to some of the Bantu homelands and I believe that this will become more and more of an important issue. I would therefore like to hear from the hon. the Minister whether some formula or plan has been worked out in anticipation of the kind of problem which might await us in the future with regard to the allocation of our limited water resources. Fortunately the Department of Water Affairs, and also the Water Research Commission, have become acutely aware of the problems of our limited water resources. They have made various assessments of the country’s water balance sheet; of the credits and also the debits. In their projections for the future, up to the year 2000, the worrying aspect is that we will have very little water in reserve by the year 2000, unless we are able to make additional water resources available. Therefore it has become imperative that we should develop new sources of water supply. There are also other important tasks that will have to be undertaken, such as measuring up our rivers once again in order to establish what can be done for the damming up of more water, for the storage of more of the flood waters that now run into the sea and also for the harnessing of water for hydro-electric power. We should also find some way of establishing our underground water potential, because we know there are considerable water sources in the dolomites and also in the sandstone formations of South Africa, as well as in some of the fissures that are aquiferous. Water is being extracted from the sand in riverbeds. This is something that has been done for a long time. Water is also being extracted from the sand of the Cape Flats. This could extend Cape Town’s water supply for several years.

I am glad to congratulate the Department of Water Affairs for having anticipated these problems and that they are working at it. We are also aware of the fact that Richards Bay is dependent for its water resources on the one sole source of supply, which is Lake Mzingazi. The estimated annual yield there is about 55 000 cubic metres. I believe that this single water source might last until 1980, but by then the development at Richards Bay will catch up with that single water source. But there is 90 million cubic metres of water available from the sands of the coastal plains near Richards Bay and also towards the Umfolozi. I think that this might be water seeping through under the Mapelane dunes, through to the sea, from rivers, like the Umgeni that flow into the Umfolozi in that area, and also from the swamps just towards the interior. I believe that owing to the complex conditions it was clear that there would be practical problems to exploit this particular source of water. We called in the advice of an Israeli groundwater consultant. I would like to know what the particular problem of this area is and why our own excellent researchers cannot tackle the problem; I am well aware that there is a master plan to try to avoid overlapping of research and work on matters of this nature, but I would like to know a little more about the particular problem in the very important area of Richards Bay.

We could also save and economize on the use of our water, which has already been done very effectively as a result of research done here by Dr. Stander and other researchers for the re-use of water from the sewerage system. In places such as Windhoek it is already being used for potable consumption. There are other important areas where a greater saving could be effected, e.g. in the agricultural sector which consumes 75% of our water. A small improvement there could mean quite a big saving. Coming from an irrigation area, round about Douglas, I am well aware of the enormous amount of water wastage as a result of over-irrigation, which causes water-logging and brick conditions, and consequently I believe that a great saving could be effected as far as irrigation is concerned. Excess irrigation water seeps into the rivers, causing brick conditions. I believe it is time that a code of practice should be drawn up to save irrigation water. The Department of Agricultural Technical Services should make very specific recommendations to those who utilize irrigation water as to how they should go about saving water. It is a well-known fact that crops are quite often improved and higher production is achieved when a drought is being experienced and irrigation water is limited. As the hon. member for Graaff-Reinet mentioned this malpractice is very prevalent in South Africa as far as the irrigation of lucerne is concerned, and I think the time has come that we should work actively towards conserving our irrigation water.

With regard to the Orange-Fish River project we are also aware that the further one goes down the Sundays River the more brick the water becomes and the higher the salinity. I know that 44 farms that were bought up by the State have been reallocated and made available for sale to farmers. In that area farmers go in for citrus in particular, and it is known that citrus is very sensitive to salinity. I would like to know from the hon. the Minister whether the department is able to do something about the salinity problem of the irrigation water in the Sundays River Valley, to make it possible for those farmers, to make their ventures economically viable, because this is a very important area. An enormous amount has been spent to make that area economically viable, and one would not like to see a valuable farming area like that going to waste as a result of too high salinity.

Then there is the problem of the Loerie Dam near Port Elizabeth. I understand that during the floods of 8 May the Loerie Dam was the only dam which could still supply Port Elizabeth with water. It has an earth wall and it just managed to survive. According to some assessments, had the rain continued for another 20 minutes, that dam wall would have broken. One of the problems apparently were that the overflow did not have a regulating system. I am not quite sure whether this dam falls under the jurisdiction of the hon. the Minister, but I should like to hear from him whether they are able to do something about that particular dam to make it quite safe for the future. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in the course of my speech I shall associate myself with certain arguments raised by the hon. member for Benoni. To begin with I should just like to dwell for a while on the essential use of water in everyday human life. It is true to say that there are few things if any in life that are as indispensable to man as water is. The experts say that one can go for up to 90 days without food, but only seven days at the most without water. One expert who has done some research claims that one uses between 25 000 litres and 30 000 litres of drinking water during one’s lifetime by drinking water, coffee or tea. Moreover, this expert claims that the man who takes whisky and who drinks two tots per day from his 25th to his 75th year, uses 5 000 litres of water or soda water, which is also only water, in his whisky. It is interesting to know that if he were to buy the water at one cent per litre, it would cost him only R50 over a period of 50 years. That is very cheap because it amounts to approximately R1 per annum. If he were to buy whisky by the tot and drink two tots per day, it would cost him R14 200 over that period. They were to buy it by the bottle, it is claimed that it would cost him R7 600, whilst the water would still cost him only R50.

Experts claim that it takes 1 300 litres of water to produce enough wheat to bake one loaf of bread. A German scientist, Dr. Kahn, stated in a scientific work Das Leben des Menschen, in other words the life of man, that a person who reaches the age of 70 will have eaten 6 000 loaves of bread in his lifetime. If one multiplies 6 000 loaves by 1 300 litres of water it means that that person needs 7 800 000 litres of water in his lifetime to produce enough bread for him. Dr. Kahn also claims that a person who reaches the age of 70 eats 4 000 kilograms of meat. He calculated this quantity of meat in the following way: Six oxen, 11 calves, 26 pigs, 10 sheep, 400 chickens, 3 000 sardines and 2 000 other fishes. Dr. Kahn claims that 48 million litres of water are needed to produce this meat for one person.

When one looks at these astronomical figures, one involuntary thinks of what the hon. the Minister of Community Development said in this House yesterday in regard to the enormous number of houses for which provision will have to be made in South Africa between now and the end of this century and then one realizes how the number of inhabitants of this country is going to increase. Then one asks oneself gravely: Will we have enough water for the future? I think we shall have to do two things. We shall have to use our available water carefully. We shall have to save wherever possible and we shall have to avoid wastage wherever possible. Whenever people get water or anything else for nothing or cheaply, it is only human for them to waste it. Therefore, I ask myself whether our people in South Africa have not in many cases in the past been given water too cheaply—in fact, practically for nothing—and whether they are not still getting it too cheaply. That is not a statement I am making now, but rather a question I want to ask. Would it not be worthwhile for our Department of Water Affairs to review certain water tariffs at certain irrigation schemes in our country? I have some private irrigation farmers in my constituency whose pumping costs amount to R150 per hectare per annum. That is what it costs them to irrigate their land. Notwithstanding that high cost, they nevertheless make a profit. Secondly, in my opinion we shall have to pay some attention to possible new sources of water for the future. I think we shall have to look at the position—and in that regard I associate myself with the hon. member for Benoni—of international waters on our borders, for example the Limpopo River which forms the border between the Republic, Botswana, Rhodesia and Mozambique. How much of the Limpopo water may we use? Would we be able to get more water from the Limpopo by way of an agreement and is there an agreement at the moment to the effect that the amount of water we are already taking from the Limpopo will remain unchanged in the future?

I am aware of the fact that international water regulations were drawn up in 1966 in Helsinki and I should like to know whether those regulations give us any guarantees as far as future co-operation between us and neighbouring states as regards international waters is concerned. As the Bantu homelands become independent, this situation will arise more frequently in respect of rivers such as the Orange River, the Olifants River, the Komati River, the Tugela River, etc.

What did the international water regulations say in respect of these sources of water? Has any thought been given to the possibility of entering into an exchange agreement with our neighbouring states in future, if necessary, so that we may use some of their water and give them maize or wheat in exchange? I just want to say that in this regard we shall have to be careful because it requires 200 000 litres of water to produce one bag of maize. In other words, we would have to get a lot of water in exchange for the products we give for it.

In the beginning I mentioned how important water was for human consumption but in conclusion I just want to indicate in a lighter vein how important it is for animals as well. I want to illustrate this by way of what the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Affairs told me yesterday about a certain Van der Merwe. Van der Merwe and his friend went hunting. However, one evening Van der Merwe did not come back. His friends went to look for him—the first day passed and so did the second day; later, after seven days, Van der Merwe was still missing. Then, while searching, his friend saw something in a tree and he went closer because he suspected that it could be Van der Merwe. Upon nearing the tree, he saw there was a lion lying under it. First of all he shot the lion and then he called to Van der Merwe to come down. Van der Merwe looked as fit as a fiddle and as plump as a partridge. He then said: Man, but you look fit and well after seven days without food and water! How did you do it? Van der Merwe replied: No, not seven days without food and water. Climb up into the tree with me and I shall show you. So they climbed up the tree together, high up into the tree, and then Van der Merwe pointed with his finger: Do you see there, behind that hill there is a dam? His friend replied: “Yes.” Van der Merwe then said: And do you see behind that other hill there is a Bantu shop? His friend said: “Yes.” Then Van der Merwe said: Every day for seven days at exactly 12 o’clock, when the sun was at its hottest, the lion got up and sauntered over to the dam for a drink of water, and once he was safely on his way, I jumped out of the tree, ran to the shop and bought a loaf of bread and a “Coke”. [Interjections.]

In conclusion I want to express a word of appreciation to a very capable and meticulous Minister who administers this portfolio, a very skilful and capable Secretary in the person of Dr. Kriel and those who work under him. I think I am speaking on behalf of all the members on this side of the House when I tell the hon. the Minister and his Secretary for Water Affairs that we are exceptionally pleased with the way in which they are administering this very important portfolio in the Republic of South Africa. We know that the portfolio of water affairs, which is so vital and essential for the future, will be administered well and we know it is safe in their capable hands.

Mr. Chairman, it was very interesting to listen to the hon. member for Meyerton, but I do not follow his example from the point at which he goes off to buy the bread and “Coke”.

I want to confine myself mainly to affairs concerning Vaal Hartz, the largest Government water scheme in the Republic of South Africa. When we dealt with this Vote last year, I made a plea in this House for aid for the salvation of the land of the Vaal Hartz Government water scheme which was gravely deteriorating as a result of abundant rainfall. This year, however, I have a pleasant tale to tell. It is a story about the wonderful recovery of the land at Vaal Hartz, so that a record wheat crop was harvested at the end of last year, and this was followed by wonderful summer harvests. This recovery was made possible on the one hand by the inspired and determined will of the farmers to save their farms by means of internal drainage wherever possible, i.e. wherever drainage canals were available. On the other hand, however, there was the active support of the Departments of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure, Agricultural Technical Services and Water Affairs in the form of loans and subsidies.

It is with much gratitude that on behalf of those farmers I wish to mention the fact here in this House that when all loans for soil conservation purposes were stopped, as a result of the money shortage, loans and subsidies were still awarded to the farmers at Vaal Hartz for draining their land. It is also with much gratitude that I mention the appropriation of R¼ million for the building of drainage canals which made it possible to save the land of 18 farms during the 1976-’77 financial year. We are also sincerely grateful for the appropriation of R1½ million for the 1977-’78 financial year.

I also want to mention the fact that in the White Paper the cost of building a six foot deep drainage canal, is estimated at R67,50 per metre. I want to pay tribute here and now to the achievement of the local engineer and his team of workmen who so far have built the drainage canals at a real average cost of approximately R45 per metre.

I also want to express my gratitude here for the fact that he conditions for the release of the servitude land alongside the canals are at present being finalized. It will interest the House to know that one farmer reaped a peanut crop of one ton on a small portion of the servitude land adjoining his farm. When I tell hon. members that there is a total of approximately 500 hectares of such servitude land, they will understand the magnitude of the source of income which the farmers could derive from the use of this servitude land, apart from the fact that it could entail a tremendous saving for the Department of Water Affairs in that the farmers themselves would keep those servitude lands free of weeds.

Having expressed my gratitude, I should like to say a few words to the hon. the Minister as well. It is true that the maximum scheduling in respect of the Vaal Hartz Government scheme for water supply is 30 morgen per plot. However, there are a number of plots or farms which are larger than 30 morgen. Some of them are up to 60 morgen and more. However, these owners are only scheduled in respect of 30 morgen. The result of this is that large parts of these farms lie unused with a consequent loss of revenue and production.

I want to advocate to the hon. the Minister that an exhaustive investigation be launched into the possibility of a higher scheduling for farms which are larger than 30 morgen. I am not advocating injudicious scheduling; what I am advocating, is that permission be granted to consider requests for greater scheduling on merit.

I am aware of the fact that it may be said that there is not enough water to justify such an additional scheduling. I want to reply to that. In the first place, the quota for irrigation from the Vaal River for the Vaal Hartz scheme has been fixed at 770 cubic metres of water per hectare. This quota has never yet been exceeded or used to the full. Therefore, there must still be a little water somewhere.

In the second place, there is a large quantity of water available in the Vaal Hartz area. I am referring to the drainage water. When I stand on the bank of a drainage canal I see that there are four streams of water, each two inches wide, flowing in the drainage canal from the neighbouring farm. It is drainage water that is flowing away. My representations concern the re-utilization or recirculation of this water.

However, before the water may be re-used by the farmers confidently, tests first have to be carried out to determine the usefulness of the drainage water. It must be established how much mineralization of the soil this could possibly cause. Secondly, an investigation must be conducted into methods of purifying or mixing the drainage water for re-use. In this regard, I may mention that once, on a visit to Vaal Hartz, an American expert in the field of irrigation stated that the quality of the drainage water there was better than the irrigation water used in some cases in America. We ask that the tests be carried out with a view to the re-utilization of the drainage water in that area, because then it will be no problem at all to provide extra water to the larger plots which are also scheduled.

Mr. Chairman, there are two matters I should like to raise with the hon. the Minister. The first one is a matter with which the hon. the Minister is particularly well acquainted by virtue of the fact that his constituency, Nelspruit, is the centre where exciting experiments have been conducted on weather modification. In that particular area attention has been specifically given to hail suppression. I realize, of course, that weather modification as such is not something which falls directly under this hon. Minister. However, his department has representation on the Weather Bureau’s board of control which is mainly responsible for co-ordinating the studies and research in respect of weather modification in our country. I may mention, too, that it does not appear to me that the hon. the Minister’s department has made a financial contribution towards this particular research project. However, the hon. the Minister is of course directly concerned with the harnessing of our total water resources. I believe we are getting to the stage where, due to the efficiency of this department, may I say, and the great progress that has been made, most of our natural resources are being almost fully harnessed. If we want to meet the demand there will be for water in this country by the year 2000, we shall perhaps have to turn our attention to other fields of supply which to date have not received the full attention of this department or other departments. It is well known and the hon. the Minister and other hon. members of the House will realize that in the end food production is going to be the most important factor in ensuring the survival of our Western way of life in Southern Africa. With the sophisticated techniques which we have developed for the production of food, we have taken a great step forward, but water will at all times be our most serious limiting factor. Therefore, I believe that, when seeking to increase or control the supply of water or to ensure a permanent and adequate supply of water, we must look to weather modification. In the hon. the Minister’s constituency hail suppression was the main reason for conducting experiments on weather modification, but the techniques which are being investigated successfully there, could, I believe, be applied to other parts of the country where the rainfall may be stimulated in a similar way to secure our water supply. It might seem foolish for anyone to raise the question of increasing our water supply at a time when, due to the bountiful rains we have received in the last five or six years, every dam in the country appears to be full and streams, which normally are dry, are running with clear water. At such a time the question of stimulating the clouds to increase our rainfall might seem foolish.

However, I do not believe it is so foolish, because we must look ahead. I have a book here published by a Mr. Thompson and a Mr. Schoeman, they made a thorough investigation into the rainfall statistics of South Africa, starting way back in 1860 when rainfall records were first kept, and going up to 1934. If one studies the tables in this book, it becomes quite evident that the same pattern of high rainfall that we are experiencing now occurred also in the previous century. However, it also becomes quite evident that after 10 good years periods of drought followed. And they were worse than the ones we know. So we can expect, though we do not look forward to its happening, that the droughts will come again, as sure as the night follows the day.

I believe we must now make provision for that kind of situation. The resource which is available to us, the clouds which drift over the continent, should, I believe, be investigated to see whether they can be tapped for increasing our water resources. I suppose the hon. the Minister is aware that of all the moisture that is in the clouds that drift over the southern tip of the continent only 0,05% comes down in the form of rain, hail or snow. The great bulk of the moisture drifts across and are wasted as far as we are concerned. I believe we should look into the possibility of using this potential. I am raising this merely because I know the hon. the Minister is interested and has special information in that he lives in the area where experiments are carried out. I would like to know whether he thinks that this kind of project has any prospects and if he sees it as something really worth following up. If the hon. the Minister says that he believes the project has a future, then I would hope that he would, in co-operation with his colleagues, the hon. the Minister of Planning, who controls the CSIR, and the hon. the Minister of Transport, who controls the Weather Bureau, look into the feasibility of taking steps to see whether we cannot conduct experiments in those areas that are most subject to droughts when the country’s rainfall cycles are on the decline. I am referring to areas like the Free State and the Karoo, areas where the production can be greatly stimulated if the rainfall can only be increased by say 5% or 10% per annum. I am interested, therefore, to hear what the hon. the Minister has to say on this particular subject.

One other matter which I would like to raise with the hon. the Minister is the question of the control of salinity in the Fish River and Sundays River valleys. As the hon. the Minister knows, the opening of the Orange-Fish tunnel, when water was for the first time diverted from the Orange River into the Fish River valley, was probably one of the most exciting events that ever happened in our country and one that is of great credit to the hon. the Minister, his department and all the officials who were concerned therewith. However, as the hon. the Minister will know, the water which has to flow down that valley, in the first instance goes down the Theebosch River. A canal will not be built. The river itself will be used for conducting the water down to the irrigation lands. However, the water is very brackish, and I would like to know from the hon. the Minister whether all the necessary steps have been taken to ensure that the brack can be brought under control and that in the years that lie ahead the irrigators will be assured that their lands will not be made unproductive by a too high brackish content in the water.

I would also like to ask whether the hon. the Minister is going to consider allowing water down the Fish river into the Sundays river to flush out Lake Mentz in the vicinity of Port Elizabeth. This dam, as the hon. the Minister will realize, develops a very high brack content, which is a serious threat to the irrigators below the dam. Their industry is largely a citrus industry and the hon. the Minister will probably know better than I do, that the citrus tree is very very sensitive to the degree of brackness in the soil. This has been a serious problem of this important sector of farming in the eastern Cape and it seems to me that if water could periodically be rushed down the valley so that the dam could be flushed out, it would be a great assistance in controlling the brack content of the water which those irrigators must use.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member will have to pardon me for not reacting to the argument advanced by him. I want to refer to certain aspects of his speech only, viz. his representations that more investigations and research be conducted into rain-making by tapping the clouds. Unfortunately, I cannot support the hon. member in that regard. As a nature lover and a student of nature, I believe that man can only disturb nature by tapping the clouds because thereafter it is possible that one would be unable to exercise any control whatsoever over the amount of rainfall, and once the cloud has been disturbed, the matter cannot be remedied. Perhaps some scientific research could be conducted into this, but I do not believe we shall ever achieve much success in this regard.

I want to address a special word of thanks to the department for what they did from 1974 up to last year in the areas next to the Orange River which border on my constituency where a great deal of damage had been caused by flood waters. The damage was spread so widely over the entire country that it really was not possible for a single department with a limited number of officials to repair everything at once. However, in the area bordering on my constituency, next to the Orange River, relatively expeditious action was taken and the repair of canals and other waterworks was completed exceptionally quickly. Most of the smallholdings there were able to get back into production quickly. This is thanks to expeditious action by the department in particular.

Most of the people in that area are small farmers and they cannot survive major set backs. A serious set back can break them for many years to come. That is why we appreciate the action taken by the department all the more. We also appreciate the interest shown in the remote comers of our country by the hon. the Minister and his Secretary for Water Affairs. They even go as far as to visit the areas and to examine the damage there. We hope that the completion of the P. K. le Roux Dam will be instrumental in controlling the flood waters more effectively than at present—one can probably not hope to stop them completely. I want to address a direct word of thanks to the Secretary for Water Affairs. I do not believe our people always realize what we have in that man. His monuments will probably tell for many years to come of the great work he has done for us in this country.

In recent times it has not been so much flood waters which have caused damage in that area, but profuse rains, particularly last season. This resulted in crops rotting under water in the fields and in the mineralization of the soil. Now one can only hope that a major drought will not follow soon. The matter must be given urgent attention, however, because the mineralization of the soil there may be such as to render it unusable in the immediate future.

Perhaps those small farmers are not of great importance to all of us. They are important to me, however, because they are people who are farming on small pieces of land, who are cultivating their small pieces of land intensively—every square centimetre of land—and in that way guaranteeing a livelihood to many people on the banks of that river. In this respect one must have appreciation for them. In their own humble way they, too, are making their contribution towards combating the depopulation of the rural areas. That is why it is heartening to learn of more such schemes being envisaged and to hear that the people involved in future schemes will be much better equipped for their task than their predecessors were.

One important aspect to which I want to draw attention, is the water position in South West Africa. With regard to this facet, too, I can attest to the fact that the Department of Water Affairs has worked what I could almost call wonders in the few years during which it has been charged with that responsibility. As hon. members probably know, water is one of the corner-stones of the economic development of any country. It is an unfortunate fact that South West Africa does not have abundant resources of water at her disposal. In this respect the Department of Water Affairs has already effected tremendous improvements, as a result of which most towns, no matter how small, in that vast region can boast that they have a water supply scheme of their own today. Consequently, the inhabitants of towns there are not experiencing any problems worth mentioning as regards the foreseeable future. Great tasks have been completed there, under extremely difficult circumstances.

If one bears in mind that the officials of the department have to perform their tasks and organize things in remote areas, one can have nothing but appreciation for this. There is also deep appreciation for the way in which the Department of Water Affairs is administering matters throughout the vast territory of South West Africa.

In order to simplify matters, South West Africa has been divided up into six organized areas. I want to refer briefly to those six areas. Firstly there is the Hardap organization, which caters for the southern regions. Then there is the organization of the central region at Okahandja. Thirdly, there is the Namib organization which caters for the west coast, Swakopmund, Walvis Bay and so on. The Otjiwarongo organization caters for Damaraland, the Kaokoveld, Hereroland and White areas in the region concerned. Then there is the Ruacana organization which is responsible for the major water projects in that area. Last but not least there is the Grootfontein organization which caters for the areas of Kavango, Owambo and the White regions there. This gives us a picture of the organization for which the department is responsible, organization which includes the whole of South West Africa.

Then I also want to express my gratitude to the department for the water programme it has drawn up. Although this will extend over a period of 25 years, one has appreciation for the fact that everything will go according to plan. Wherever there is a plan, it is always put into effect. It is also clear that in the immediate future a great deal more money will have to be spent on supplying this large area with water as development takes place in the area. If we want to have major development there in the future, then more funds will have to be made available for developing the area. We sincerely hope that the department will still render assistance to us in the years that lie ahead.

I want to conclude by referring to the research being conducted by the department. Most of South West Africa is dependent on subterranean water. There is a relatively large quantity of subterranean water but not all of it is usable. We are aware of the fact that the department has a section that is conducting research into the desalination of water. I should be pleased if the hon. the Minister would give us a picture of how much progress has been made and of the efficacy in this regard of the process of reverse osmosis in particular. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, at this late hour of the evening I shall just be brief and put two matters of a local nature in my constituency to the hon. the Minister. Last year during the floods in the region of the Vet River in my constituency a great deal of damage was done to the vlei grass. For the sake of interest I can state that that vlei grass is something unique in the Republic of South Africa. I was once privileged to see an Afrikaner cow with spreading horns give birth to her 16th calf in the vlei grass in her 21st year. She stood in the vlei, without any other food, but she resembled the animals that are kept in stalls in other parts of the world. As a result of the inundation which took place during those floods, the grass of many of those farmers was destroyed.

This evening I want to give a vote of thanks to the hon. the Minister. He came in person to look at the damage that had been caused. That alone was a comfort to the farmers, but that was not all he did. In addition, the department authorized a thorough investigation and the report of that investigation did away with all speculation. Therefore, I want to convey my heartfelt thanks and appreciation to the hon. the Minister and his officials this evening for the thorough piece of work which they did there.

A further point I want to mention relates to the Sand-Vet canals. When the canals run for a certain distance over an owner’s land, he is entitled to a water supply for his cattle from that canal. It is a unique investment in the sense that the owner provided the pipes which were laid by the Department of Water Affairs. What actually troubles the farmers a little is the fact that the tariff for that water was raised by 116% as from 1 April. There are no overhead expenses related to it. There are no officials involved in it.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.