as Chairman, presented the Third Report of the Select Committee on Pensions, as follows—

C. V. VAN DER MERWE,

Chairman.

Committee Rooms

House of Assembly

1 June 1977

Report to be considered.

Mr. Chairman, I do not think I am wrong when I say that one of the main lines of security in our country must be an efficient and a sufficient health service. We recently passed a Health Bill. In my opinion that legislation is an excellent blueprint of what we should have for the future. However, I am not at all satisfied that we have the personnel, that we have the hands to implement those provisions which the hon. the Minister wants carried out. This is a most important matter, and unless we do something about it immediately, we are going to land ourselves in a very, very serious situation. We are going to find ourselves with an increasing population growth rate and with people living longer, while we will not have the necessary personnel to give the people the service which the hon. the Minister wants to provide for them.

The standard of our medical practitioners, of our dentists, of our nurses and of our paramedical people are excellent. The services being rendered in our hospitals could not, I believe, be better, but it seems to me such a pity that we do not have a sufficient number of people to do all those things that have to be done for an efficient health service. To a great extent this has come about as a result of our policy in this country, particularly in regard to medical education. It is strange that at this time we still find that, because of legislation, the doors of our universities and medical schools are closed to those not belonging to the White race group. In the case of Black and Coloured universities their doors are closed to White students. We do not have a recruiting campaign to get more medical students into the universities. One of the reasons of course is that the medical schools are too small. I believe that this is one of the few places in the world where more applicants are turned away than are accepted.

It seems to me such a great pity that this vast potential we have on our doorstep should be allowed to go waste. Between 1972 and 1975 we had an increase of merely 600 medical students over the preceding years. That is a very, very poor intake indeed. The hon. the Minister should talk to the hon. the Minister of Education to see what means can be devised to open up medical schools to all those who can be admitted on merit and to all those whom the universities will be willing to admit. We must always bear in mind that the universities have autonomy, but we must not by legislation force the universities to open up their doors. However, we can request them to do so. I believe that if the position was put to them fairly and squarely, they would do this.

Besides the difficulty with numbers we have the added difficulty of distribution of medical personnel. We are getting hardly sufficient numbers of medical personnel even in the big towns, to meet the existing needs. What then about the sparsely populated areas which do not have the social amenities people of higher education would like to have? What about the children who have to go to boarding school because their father works in the country? The time comes when those children grow up and when they want to go into the towns as well. We are already experiencing a depopulation of the platteland through other causes. This is planning that has to be looked at immediately. This hon. Minister happens to be the hon. Minister of Planning as well. I therefore ask him to give this matter his direct attention.

We have a further difficulty, a difficulty resulting from the high merit required from students when entering the university. We find that there is a tendency among the newly qualified doctors not to go into general practice, but rather to go into one of the specialties. I would urge the hon. the Minister to make sure that he has more general practioners entering the field. While this is going on, we cannot allow the services to suffer. I would therefore urge that in the one Health Service branch where there is a good enrolment figure, the hon. the Minister should make better use of those people who are being trained. I refer to nurses. I say again that the nurses must be provided with advanced training to cover those branches of medicine which are not being catered for at the moment and could easily be undertaken by an efficient nurse. Decentralized clinics give a wonderful opportunity for this, and it is for the nurse then to be able to see the sick and to be able to sort out those who need immediate attention, those who are emergencies, and so on.

At the moment, because of growing unemployment, the escalation of fees and the inability of middle-class people who do not belong to a medical aid scheme to pay for medical treatment, there is going to be a greater and greater demand for beds and attention at provincial hospitals. This has got to be met. We are already threatened by “house full” signs at hospitals, not because there are not enough beds at the hospitals, but because there is not enough hospital personnel to man the beds. We have wards empty, but the “house full” sign—emergencies only— goes up. We cannot go on like that. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that he must see what he can do to make sure that the number of students that are enrolled in the universities, whether they are dental, medical or paramedical students, is increased as from now. The hon. the Minister may have figures and may have had talks about this, but he must inform the House now what has been taking place.

We have a big hospital at Johannesburg at the moment, the Johannesburg General Hospital, but this is soon to be replaced by another provincial hospital costing millions and millions of rands to erect. Can we at this stage when we need all the beds we can get, afford not to use this great, big hospital for teaching purposes? I am referring to the old General Hospital and not the new one. The new hospital will have teaching facilities, but I want to ask the hon. the Minister to make sure that he is in close touch with the provinces and makes the best use of this big hospital which has more than 1 000 beds available. The hospital must be used for teaching purposes. The wards need not only be for White People, but I would urge the hon. the Minister to have wards for Whites, Blacks, Indians and Coloureds so that all the students who come to the university will be able to be catered for at this hospital. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I recently read a newspaper report which upset me very much. It dealt with the decision which had been taken by the Confederation of Labour. That confederation is adopting a threatening stand towards physicians as regards a possible increase in doctors’ tariffs. The Medical Association replied to this and spoke, inter alia, of “irresponsibility.” The hon. the Minister put matters to rights and told us what the actual position was. What troubles me is that the hon. the Minister now finds himself in a dilemma in this case. At the beginning of January the Medical Association requested a remuneration commission. The matter has not yet been finalized, however, and in terms of the Medical Schemes Act the Minister is obliged to publish the tariffs within three months of the announcement of the remuneration commission’s finding. This plunges the hon. the Minister into the heart of the dilemma of doctors’ tariffs. What upsets one even more is the praise Mr. Neuwoudt gives to dentists in particular in his statement because they are not asking for higher tariffs. If one investigates the circumstances, however, one sees that approximately 41% of the dentists have contracted out. Therefore, they do not recognize these tariffs. It upsets me that as a result of this Act, the Minister and the Government have become involved in this dispute. I believe that my colleagues, the medical men outside, will restrain themselves as the hon. the Minister has asked. Those tariffs still have to be published, however, and there will be a reaction to this. In my opinion, we are dealing here with an Act which is now beginning to create problems for us. When one thinks that there are 11 paramedical professions registered at this stage and that every one of them has to have its tariffs determined in the same way by a remuneration commission, and in every case by a judge whilst there are no judges available, then I think the time has arrived for the hon. the Minister to consider this Medical Schemes Act.

It seems to me that the medical schemes are very well organized. If one takes all beneficiaries into account, then approximately 85% of the Whites of the Republic fall under medical schemes at this stage. It seems to me that they are starting to look after their own interests. I feel that these schemes should be allowed to negotiate directly with the Medical Association whenever they wish and whenever it is necessary, because the Medical Association is experiencing a problem in that regard as well. If these tariffs are not published now, then the Association will be saddled with the problem of not being able to request further tariff increases before another two years, plus a maximum of nine months, in other words, almost three years, have elapsed. In my opinion, we should allow these people to come to an agreement and then appoint an arbitrator to help solve their problem. It seems to me that the best arbitrator is the Medical Council itself. At its latest meeting, the Medical Council adopted a resolution to the effect that it would be prepared to fix a tariff or to take cognizance of the proposed tariff, something which it has never before been prepared to do. I think we could establish peace and goodwill in the profession in this way and render the best services.

The Health Act makes provision for the council’s advisory committee to appoint subcommittees. In my opinion, a subcommittee should be appointed from this permanent advisory committee to hold regular discussions with the Medical Association of South Africa. In this regard, statutory recognition has to be given to those people and the problems that are being experienced in the profession should be discussed with them. We need the private practioner if we are to render adequate services. I want to advocate that we put these matters to rights and eliminate the problems.

Mr. Chairman, you will permit me to congratulate the department on an exceptional report, one with a target, an objective and an indication of the extent to which those people have achieved their objective.

As regards family planning, the department has set itself the objective of attracting to the clinics at least 50% of all those women who are still in the fertile years of their lives. As far as the Coloureds are concerned, they have already exceeded their target. They have achieved 129,2% of their target. They have obtained exceptional results in the sense that whilst the birth rate of the Coloured population was approximately 45 per 1 000 four years ago, this went down to a little over 28 per 1 000 last year. Last year the figure dropped to approximately 28 per 1 000. This absolutely phenomenal success has been achieved only by rendering a personal service, one which benefits the people who use it. One of the matters which has been brought to the people’s attention is that it makes a tremendous difference whether an income of R100 per month has to be shared between four, six or eight people—depending on the size of the family. By pointing out aspects like these to the people, by rendering the services and providing the facilities which people need, they are enabling them to protect themselves against fertility. A very exceptional service is being rendered in this regard, particularly if one bears in mind how few people are involved in rendering the service. The service was provided by 16 full-time and 137 part-time physicians with the assistance of a large number of nurses who had been trained to do the work and who did it properly. In my opinion, South Africa will in future be grateful to the Department of Health for this exceptional service in the interests of the welfare of all people, and I should like to express my gratitude to the department today on behalf of this House.

Mr. Chairman, at the outset I would like to express a word of thanks and appreciation to the department for the excellent report they have presented to the House. The report is not only interesting and chock-full of valuable information, but is also valuable as a reference work for the work that we have to do during the course of the year. I also have appreciation for the fact that the report made its appearance well ahead of this debate, which made it possible for us to read and study it and so as to be well informed about the activities of the department.

One of the matters I would like to raise is dealt with in the report, i.e. geriatric services for the aged. In our country, as in many other countries, the changes in our social structure—population movements from rural to urban areas—have resulted in increasing numbers of aged people being concentrated in our urban areas. It so happens that aged people normally become concentrated in the depressed urban areas of South Africa. It is, to my mind, unfortunate that the depressed urban areas should become the dumping ground of our aged people. It almost appears as if the attitude of society is that when they are out of sight, they are out of mind and that we are thereby getting a load off our individual and combined conscience. The hon. the Minister has at his disposal the new Health Bill that was passed through Parliament earlier this year in terms of which he can bring about comprehensive health services for our aged people. I quote the following from page 19 of the department’s report—

At this stage it is still very limited and my urgent appeal to the hon. the Minister is to extend geriatric health services, via local authorities, throughout South Africa as soon as possible. In the UK in 1911 men over 65 years of age and women over 60 years of age constituted 66,8% of the population. In 1951 it was 13,6% of the population and in 1974, 16,4%. The projected figure for the year 1981 is 17,5%. It is said that in South Africa—I do not have comparable figures—the same trend is being experienced. In South Africa at the moment, pensioned and retired people, for example, make out 47,1% of the population whereas the potentially productive population is only 52,8%. This figure is very much lower than that of other Western countries. The position is, however, that as the economically inactive percentage of the population increases so the percentage of the economically active people decreases, which means that the financial burden and the burden of providing facilities and services on the financially active part of the community is steadily increasing. The job this hon. Minister and his department has, in close association with the Department of Social Welfare, is to take all possible steps to see to it that the older people within our community are maintained in a healthy and viable state, to see to it that they are as self-sufficient as possible, thereby reducing their dependence on the community as a whole.

Health services are provided by the State, the provinces and by local authorities. However, there is a problem which I think all of us must face and that is that the dispersal of these services, the divided control, is still reducing the efficacy of the services. The way to avoid this is to give to local authorities the primary responsibility and the means and the finances to provide effective and comprehensive health services for elderly people. That can best be done by the provision of geriatric health clinics in association with service centres, which are advocated by the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions to be provided by welfare organizations. In that respect the responsibility should be as follows: identifying the elderly people within the community served by that local authority; communicating with those elderly people, and offering them the services that can be rendered at such a clinic.

In the first place these people should be screened. Their eyesight and hearing should be tested. Their feet should be examined and their weight noted. Tests in regard to urine, haemoglobin and blood-pressure should be carried out. Based on that initial screening paramedical services, which can be provided at such clinics, should be rendered, services such as physiotherapy and chiropody. They should be referred for specialist services if their initial screening indicates that special treatment is required. But at these clinics one can go very much further than the provision of purely screening services and paramedical health services. They can go much further than undertaking the initial screening services and the provision of elementary health services. There are many other things which elderly people require. For instance, they require to know about housing accommodation, social welfare services and employment opportunities for people in their particular position in life. They may also require other services, services being rendered by the Post Office and other Government departments. Taking into consideration the full spectrum of services that elderly people need and the fact that they today have to go from pilar to post, covering dozens of miles across central city areas and having to make use of public transport in the process—which because of their mobility is very difficult—one feels that all these difficulties can to a large extent be removed as far as the elderly is concerned by concentrating in one area the services which they need. These services should be provided by people who understand their difficulties, and who will be sympathetic with them. The services can be extended by the training and provision of more nurses to visit elderly people where they live within the community. An interesting fact is that amongst the White population in South Africa 7% of the people over 65 find themselves in institutions for the elderly. In the United Kingdom they have managed to restrict that percentage and they have less than 5% of their elderly people over 65 in institutions for the aged. They manage to do this by extending to the elderly people services which are rendered to them in their community. In other words, there are health visitors, people that help them with their housekeeping and their laundry and nursing services trained specifically to visit the elderly people, identify their problems and to assist them with those problems. Where necessary, they refer elderly people to the clinics and the hospitals, if their condition is such that they require further attention. I should like to say to the hon. the Minister that the Health Bill, which was passed by Parliament earlier this year, provides him with the means to render this kind of service and assistance to our elderly people in South Africa. However, he can only do so effectively and it can only be a great success if he is prepared to accept that the local authority must be the agency, the instrument he uses to render this service throughout South Africa, and if he is prepared to cajole, guide and encourage local authorities as well as to provide them with the funds they require to render this service.

Mr. Chairman, I believe that the hon. the Minister will reply to the matters which the hon. member for Bryanston raised in connection with the care of the aged. I should like to express my gratitude towards the hon. member for Rosettenville, who said, amongst other things, that the standard of the medical profession in South Africa is particularly high, because an attack has been made recently on a certain section of the profession in South Africa on a scale which is unprecedented in the history of the medical profession. Before I come to that, I want to say that we in South Africa have a proud record as far as the standard and ethics of the medical profession are concerned. This is also due to the self-discipline which the profession applies through the S.A. Medical Council. South Africa is proud of its hospitals, institutions and medical health services because they are comparable with the best in the world. South Africa is responsible for some of the greatest medical achievements in the world.

We quite realize that certain things are wanting. Naturally, there are not yet sufficient facilities in certain fields, but we are continually working at improving them because there was a tremendous backlog in the past, especially in regard to mental health services.

Some Senators and members of the House of Assembly were privileged in being able to take a personal look at various institutions for mental health in South Africa on two occasions during the past year. We were impressed by the standard which is maintained there and the dedication of the doctors and staff at the various institutions. We were also impressed by the new facilities which are being created, as well as by the modernization of existing facilities. In general, the grounds are very well tended and the wards look very neat. We must take into consideration the fact that we are dealing here with those tragic cases in the community who suffer from permanent psychoses or from incurable insanity.

We also visited various institutions which are operated by private bodies and I want to say that these institutions are at least equal to, and sometimes better than some of the Government institutions which we visited. These institutions are subject to regular supervision and inspection by the Department of Health. It has become essential in South Africa for us to make use of these bodies. There are private institutions in South Africa for both Whites and non-Whites. These institutions are placed at the disposal of the State by private undertakings, without the State having to provide the capital outlay involved, and in addition the State pays a very fair tariff per patient per day.

I am bringing these facts to the attention of the House today because the position of mental health in South Africa has recently been the target of an onslaught unprecedented in the history of South Africa. The onslaught comes from the Press, both here and abroad, the anti-apartheid committee of the UN, the World Health Organization, and many other bodies, but is chiefly due to false information provided to these bodies and the Press by the Church of Scientology. The Scientology movement has already been the subject of a commission of inquiry. The evidence which was presented to the House at that time was absolutely shocking. I do not, however, want to go into the details of that evidence now. At the time, many of us felt that it was an undesirable organization which did not make use of scientific methods and which definitely could not be called a church in the ordinary sense of the word. At most, it can be called a semi-religious philosophy. Over a period of several years, these people have launched an unprecedented personal campaign against the medical profession, against psychiatrists and psychiatry in particular, against the Minister of Health, against the Secretary of Health and against the Department of Health.

This morning they demonstrated in front of the Department’s building in Pretoria in connection with matters which are still sub judice and are being investigated by the police. This is in connection with certain accusations which have been made. These people have made an attack on mental health in South Africa and on the services of this department, an attack which we cannot simply ignore.

Let me give a few examples. The hon. member for Rosettenville knows how the people concerned tried to set a trap for him, as was clear from evidence given before the commission. They wanted to show him up because he had dared to criticize them. The repeated personal terrorizing of our very competent Secretary of Health can no longer be tolerated. They do this by means of publications, threatening phone calls and even by molesting him in the privacy of his home. I also want to point out the false propaganda of this organization in connection with health legislation. When we replaced the word “drug” in legislation by the word “medicine”—this is the custom throughout the world—they said we were doing this to promote drug abuse in South Africa. On three occasions in the past few years these people have broken into places in order to obtain information. They broke into the offices of the Department of Health; they broke into church offices; and they broke into the premises of Mr. Tabatznik, the director of Smith & Nephew, which provides these services to the State. They went so far as to forge the signature of the Secretary to the department in a document which they sent to the World Health Organization. I could go on to demonstrate how they repeatedly cast suspicion on our health legislation. Our foreign embassies are snowed under with telegrams after these people have made statements to the Press abroad. I have a document here which was drawn up by the World Health Organization after certain information had been obtained. It is a bulky document entitled “Shocking treatment of African mental patients in South Africa.” This document has been circulated on a world-wide basis and will also form the basis of the discussion of the Psychiatric Association at their congress in Honolulu later this year. This is the result of information which came directly from the Scientology movement.

Can we put up with the existence of this organization in South Africa any longer? Can we allow people like Nigel Tasker and Gordon Cook—both have British passports although one of them was born in Marocco—to continue to undermine our country in this way and to try to show us up at the UN, at the World Health Organization and in the international medical arena? I do not think that they are welcome in this country any longer. We are on the eve of a world congress which may have far-reaching consequences for us, because the theme of this congress is: “Political misuse of psychiatry, with special reference to South Africa” In view of our world position, in view of the political threat we are faced with, we can no longer allow this serious abuse of freedom in South Africa. That is why I ask the Government to take immediate action against these people in the interest of our country.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Newcastle has dealt frankly and effectively with the question of mental health.

I wish to deal with another matter, namely family planning. This was briefly referred to by the hon. member for Fauresmith. It is gratifying to note that the amount provided in the estimates is R6,1 million, which represents a twelvefold increase of the amount which was voted when this Vote first appeared in the estimates in 1965. But there is still a great deal to be done in this respect. I believe that there is an urgent need in South Africa to intensify the campaign, a campaign which is already making good progress. In order to do that, I submit that we need the full participation and co-operation of all races. This I believe to be an absolute priority. The reason I say this is because the problem is greater in South Africa than in many other countries. The largest group of our population is the Bantu and they have a built-in resistance—the males in particular—to any suggestion of co-ordinated family planning. It is a resistance due in no large measure to superstition. We know that large families are regarded by many Bantu as a status symbol. We also know that the migrant labour system leads to a great deal of illegitimacy. This, also is a great problem and it is distressing to realize that the State itself has no statistics in regard to the extent of illegitimacy among the Bantu people.

When we refer to the 1976 report of the Department of Health we find there a brief reference to family planning, a reference mainly to the manner in which steps have been taken to disseminate the information and to publicize the work that is being done by the department and by various clinics. The question I pose is: Is that work being done in the area where there is the greatest need for it? I know the hon. member for Fauresmith referred to the fact that in the White areas a large number of women, more than one million, are protected by programme services, but what about the Black areas?

In 1974-’75, in so far as the subsidized expenditure was concerned—including the cost of all contraceptives—only 17% of the amount was spent in the Black areas. The latest report of the Human Sciences Research Council states that Black fertility is tremendously high. The report states that 40% of the Bantu women in the age group between 40 and 44 have given birth to seven or more live children. It is also highly significant that if one compares population growth rates in other parts of the world with that in South Africa, one finds that the South African growth rate is 10% higher than Brazil, 28% higher than Nigeria, 40% higher than India and 220% higher than the USA. There is strong evidence to show that there is a growing number of women in the USA who regard the preferred size of a family to be two at the most. In South Africa we have a Bantu crude birth rate of 40 per 1 000. A nation-wide survey revealed that the proportion of Black women in the high-risk group in the White areas who practise contraception, amounts to approximately 20%, while in the homelands the percentage of Black women practising contraception drops to below 10%. It is obvious that male opposition is playing a significant role. It is the stumbling block. A survey amongst Bantu males reveals that there is more opposition to family planning from men than there is from females. The male shows a preference for very large families.

Always unreasonable!

Always unreasonable? Sometimes we men are unreasonable with good cause, Mr. Chairman. [Interjections.] As Adam also found … [Interjections.] 38% of males preferred a family of six to eight children, according to the survey. The most popular choice of a family, from the male point of view, was a family of four children.

In the country areas a higher percentage chose a family of six to eight children. When one bears in mind that just over a third of the males would not allow their wives to practise any form of contraception, it is also most interesting to note that the higher the standard of education the greater the acceptance of family planning. This survey reveals that four men with a Std. II education refused family planning aid compared with every one man with a Std. V education. In the traditional communities the large families were favoured because they represented a source of income; a source of lobola when it came to the females and also a source of care and security in old age. After this, in so far as non-Christians were concerned, the more descendants a man leaves behind to worship him, the more important ancestor spirit he becomes. These are superstitions which make the problem difficult.

The conclusion in the survey reveals that Black males could indeed prove to be a serious obstacle to a more general acceptance of family planning. What is the answer? Where are the priorities? Statistics reveal that the higher the standard of education, the greater the co-operation in favour of family planning. Therefore, a process of enlightenment should start. It should start in schools and should continue in the universities. I believe that the Departments of Health and of Bantu Education should mount an intensive operation “survival” for South Africa and for the people of the homelands, because it is not possible—I think previous speakers have indicated the difficulties there—to provide sufficient health and social services to keep pace with the current birth rate among the Bantu of 40 per 1 000.

These figures are dated 1973, and I should say that the point I wish to make has been accentuated further. It is interesting to note that at that time there were over 400 000 Bantu scholars and students over the age of 16 and under the age of 25 in the Bantu schools and universities. All of them are now nearing their most reproductive period. At present I have been able to establish that there is no sex education, no family planning instruction, in either Bantu schools or universities. While it is possible that among the other communities the parents themselves can offer some basis of instruction to their children and to young people, the very facts which I have quoted and which show the antagonism and the vast number of Bantu who are unaware of or unwilling to use these services, the need for some form of tuition seems to be even more important in this section of the community. I know that there are certain students at the universities and at the two colleges for advanced technical education for Bantu who are receiving instruction as part of their course. They receive instruction in regard to detailed family planning. However, I do not believe that this is enough. I believe that very serious thought must be given to the fact that an intensive campaign must be initiated through the Department of Health in co-operation with the Department of Bantu Education.

Mr. Chairman, both the hon. member for Berea and the hon. member for Fauresmith discussed family planning. Family planning is very important in the times in which we are living. Family planning is directly related to a very important matter, and that is family responsibility. We can do what we like—and it is vital that we do what we can—but we will never achieve success in family planning unless a sense of responsibility towards the children begotten by them is nurtured in those people who are raising families. That is why I am also very pleased that, as is apparent from the new health legislation, it is a definitive objective of the Government to diversify services to a greater extent in order to create a more comprehensive service.

I am pleased about the slight shift of emphasis from curative work to preventive work. That is why I think it is very important that when the legislation is implemented, one of the chief objectives should be to appoint a committee, which can be done in terms of the Act, to investigate the entire aspect of the provision of services. The first facet of providing services is to create facilities. It is true that we are building large hospitals, as the hon. member for Rosettenville has said, but these are used chiefly for curative work. It is fine that we are having success with heart transplants and other technical operations which cannot be equalled anywhere else in the world, but it should also be our ideal to prevent anyone from having to have a new heart. That is why I am pleased that this legislation may now be implemented so that we may make use of smaller clinics and place greater emphasis on the prevention of and information about diseases. This also relates to family planning.

Moreover, I also want to refer to the annual report of the S. A. Medical Research Council. I just want to quote one short paragraph which upsets me to a certain extent. I am reading from page 8—

Provision is being made for the more effective prevention of diseases, as well as better information over a wide area. I also think it is very important, however, that the Department of Health should have a direct say in the matter of the health of the breadwinner. In 1975 a commission of inquiry under the leadership of Mr. Justice Erasmus made a thorough study of occupational health. Unfortunately, I have to say that it is alarming that we in this developing country with its tremendous number of factories and 1,6 million factory workers are still lagging far behind comparable countries as far as legislation and precautionary measures relating to occupational health are concerned. There are only five trained occupational hygienists in South Africa. I want to quote a few examples from the report to impress on the hon. the Minister how vital it is for the Department of Health to have a say in the matter. The department, the Minister of Mines and the Department of Labour must put their heads together and take a good look at this facet of our country’s health as well. I just want to quote a few figures. The average number of workers who work on South African mines daily amounts to 4 445 242 Blacks and 30 356 Whites. An average of 5 566 Whites and 12 486 Bantu work in the industries every day. The occupational diseases related to mining are well under control. These people are doing their best. A few years ago we passed legislation to place the treatment of diseases other than silicosis which are contracted in the mining and other industries, under one umbrella.

What is the position in our industries and factories? An unambiguous reference is made to lead poisoning, for example, in this report. There are no fewer than 2 495 factories employing 133 000 people dealing with lead, a component of lead, batteries or lead used in the printing industry. An investigation conducted at 60 factories, revealed the fact that no fewer than 528 out of 3 745 employees, i.e. 35,5%, were suffering from lead poisoning in various stages.

In the textile and synthetic fibre factories, the substance vinyl chloride is used in the manufacture of artificial resin. This is a deadly poisonous substance which gives off gases that can cause certain diseases if inhaled. It has been proved that there is a direct correlation between vinyl chloride and certain types of liver cancer and other types of cancer. There are 6 794 factories that have something to do with some type of plastic material. Some 589 672 people are employed in factories in which they are exposed to that substance.

The report gives a clear indication of the fact that there are factories in which there is no control over health conditions. There is a casualty officer who can treat someone who has hurt his finger. Some large industries employ a doctor on loose footing. I have personal knowledge of the situation on the Rand. Many physicians are employed by five or six factories at the same time. He simply telephones the factories to find out whether everything is still in order.

We have much leeway to make up as far as occupational health is concerned. It is my honest opinion that the hon. the Minister can do a great deal to enable us to have a say in health legislation in this field as well. There are thousands of factories at which no pre-employment examinations are made. In the mining industry, absolute control is exercised over everyone in a very fine manner but no control is exercised over these 1½ million people. No follow-up examinations are made and they do not know what has become of their people.

It is apparent from this report that there are many substances such as gaseous substances and other mineral substances which we know very little about when it comes to their effects on human beings. That is why I am asking the hon. the Minister once again to bring this matter pointedly to the attention of other departments so that in co-operation with them, the employers and the trade unions, we may obtain a better deal for these people in future.

Mr. Chairman, this afternoon I should like to confine myself mainly to the district surgeon services in our country and to how these services fit into a comprehensive health service. For the purposes of my discussion, I shall confine myself chiefly to the part-time district surgeons in our rural areas.

For many years now, the department has been experiencing great problems in filling all the posts for part-time district surgeons, particularly in the rural districts. One gets the general impression that for various reasons medical practitioners are no longer interested in doing this work and give, inter alia, the following reasons for no longer wanting to do it: Firstly, there is inadequate remuneration, bearing in mind the amount of work and the time that is spent on the work. They also complain about insufficient leave and about the fact that if they do take leave, they have to appoint a locum tenens, at their own expense, to perform their duties in their absence. A third excuse—perhaps a very valid one—concerns the high demands which private practice also places on these people.

When we analyse the services of a district surgeon, we find that they fall into two main categories. Firstly, he performs general duties of medical practitioners such as examining and treating indigent patients. Most of these are people of other colour groups who would otherwise be unable to afford any other type of medical treatment. The district surgeon is also responsible for the medical care of the Police, members of the Defence Force when a Defence Force physician is not available, the Prisons Service staff as well as the prisoners in gaol. His work also includes house calls to all these people, particularly to the indigent people on farms who have to be examined and treated on the spot.

One could describe the second category of work as medical jurisprudence or medical administration. This includes, inter alia: post-mortems in the case of murder or death resulting from unnatural causes; the examination of accused persons and complainants; particularly in assault cases; attendance at Supreme Court sessions and magistrates’ court sessions; and the examination of drivers of motor vehicles who are suspected of having driven under the influence of liquor. The district surgeon’s work also embraces the examination of candidates for appointment to the Public Service, the Defence Force, the Police, the Prisons Service and so on. Their duties are therefore extensive, demanding and very comprehensive. The district surgeon is therefore a very important link and component in the entire set-up of a comprehensive medical service, a service we have made it our object to achieve in terms of the new Health Act. I have referred to the two main categories into which the work of a district surgeon falls, and I shall come back to that at a later stage in my argument.

Despite the much better salaries which are continually being adjusted to work requirements, and despite the advantage many district surgeons have of being able to prescribe medicine and have those prescriptions made up by a pharmacy, the department is still having many problems in filling the part-time posts. According to the latest annual report at our disposal, there are 344 such part-time posts in the Republic of South Africa and 41 of them are vacant. There are 136 full-time posts of which 70—more than 50%—are vacant. These shortages are being filled by making a satisfactory arrangement with physicians or with people who do the work on a sessional basis. Increasing use is also made of district nurses, but the cost of the services is rising astronomically.

In my opinion, the time has come for very urgent consideration to be given to that matter. I have here a list of district surgeoncies where the task is performed on a sessional basis. In other words, those people are appointed in a part-time capacity but are paid the rates applicable to medical aid funds. I shall not mention the names of the towns or the medical practitioners involved, of course, but I must furnish a few figures so that one can judge the size of the amounts the State is paying at the moment. Let me refer to town A, a rural town. The salary of a part-time district surgeon, if one can be found, is R18 000 per year plus a medicine grant of R15 000 per year. That rural town is now being served by a medical practitioner working at the medical aid rates. The costs involved in this are R74 000 per annum. In another town it is R60 000, the salary for the district surgeon being fixed at R13 200, and he has the privilege of getting medicines on prescription from a pharmacy. In the case of town C the salary attached to the post is R15 000. At the moment the surgeon, who is doing the work at medical aid rates, is being paid R36 000. In the case of town D this amount is R37 000. It is a small town …

I know which town it is.

… in which the salary attached to the post is R4 440. In that case the costs are now R19 556. Mr. Chairman, you will agree with me that this is a highly unsatisfactory state of affairs. I do not want to accuse anyone of the fact that this amounts to exploitation, but very urgent consideration will have to be given to the situation. The Schumann Commission recommended that district surgeon services should fall under the provincial administration. Since the new Health Act is in the process of being implemented, I want to ask that this matter be investigated as a priority issue by the Health Matters Advisory Committee and the National Health Policy Council. The ideal we are all aiming at in respect of district surgeon services is, of course, a hospital-centred service, as is, in fact, being implemented in many of our Bantu homelands. There are, of course, obvious advantages related to having a district surgeon, either full-time or part-time, at a hospital. It would most certainly not be possible to have a full-time district surgeon at every hospital, but since hospitals are responsible for the provision of these services, there are obvious advantages involved in this. Unfortunately I do not have the time to go into them now. In any event, it would also result in a better co-ordinated, personal therapeutic service being provided at this level because we find, in practice, that the services provided by hospitals and those provided by district surgeons are, for the most part, separated into two watertight compartments. No co-ordination exists between those two service agencies. When this service is hospital-centred, it will take place on the basis of outpatient clinics, day hospitals, and so on, which could be manned chiefly, or in the majority of cases, by trained district nurses who could provide a very valuable service. However, I do not want to go into all the advantages of having a hospital-centred district surgeon.

I have already referred to the fact that the work done by a district surgeon can be divided into two categories, in the one instance purely a health service and in the other instance a service involving medical jurisprudence or medical administration. It is clear that it would be hard to reconcile the medical jurisprudence aspect of his work with hospital administration or with the work of a medical practitioner who is connected with a hospital. I think nevertheless, that because this is a service which is furnished to the central authority, there is still room in specific towns—or, if preferred, in every town—for the appointment of a State surgeon who could be responsible for the medical jurisprudence and other administrative work for which the services of a district surgeon are so indispensable.

Mr. Chairman, I have an entirely different matter to raise. Therefore I hope the hon. member for Cradock will forgive me if I do not comment on his speech. I want to raise with the hon. the Minister the operation of the Abortion and Sterilization Bill which was passed by this House some two years ago. It was promulgated just over two years ago. I want to say at once that the intention of the Act was to make abortion obtainable on very limited grounds. I suppose that in this regard it can claim to have been a very great success. In the two years that the Act has been in operation, only about 1 037 legal abortions have been performed in the Republic and South West Africa. But, of course, the figures which we really want are figures which are unobtainable, viz. the figures of the number of illegal or back-street abortions which have been performed since the Act came into operation. It has proved remarkably difficult to obtain these figures. It is true that one could never expect completely accurate figures in this regard, because some illegal abortions are performed quite successfully, no further consequences result and one does not hear anything more about them. A great many of these illegal or back-street abortions, however, result in what is known as septic abortions. These land up in hospital and have to be treated. The vast majority of these septic abortions are in fact self-induced or illegal abortions. It has been very difficult to obtain any figures. Hospital superintendents have in all cases proved to be very coy about supplying the number of septic abortions which have been performed since the Abortion Act came into operation, no doubt on instruction from above—I mean of course the Minister, not the Almighty. There was one project carried out in Natal by the Centre for Applied Social Sciences of Natal University. At first there was enthusiastic co-operation from the hospitals. But halfway through there was a clamp down and the Director of Hospital Services for Natal forbade the release of any further figures. I want to know why that is so. In the Transvaal there has been an almost complete black-out as far as these figures are concerned. I did, however, get some figures passed to me from the Natal project, because the 14 private and mission hospitals catering for maternal care in Natal and Zululand did supply figures. These reflected a 33,6% increase in hospital admission cases from spontaneous or illegal abortions in the 12 months following the passing of the Act. I want also to quote here a comment which was made by Dr. Bloch, the deputy head of the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology at Witwatersrand University. He said in his memorandum to the Cillié Commission, which he submitted on 18 March this year—

And that, by my arithmetic, makes well over 7 000 cases per year. The doctor also said in the same memorandum—

I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he will furnish us with figures of the illegal or septic abortions that have been attended to in the state hospitals and if not, why not. I also want to ask him if he does not think that the time has come to consider amending the Act, because I think that there has been a growing demand for certain amendments, not only from, for instance, the Abortion Reform Action Group, which from the outset has pressed for abortion on request up to the end of the first three months of pregnancy, but also now from other women’s organizations such as the S.A. Federation of Business and Professional Women, the Women’s Legal Status Committee and the National Council of Women, which has passed resolutions at branch level asking for amendments to the Abortion Act allowing abortion on request, in consultation between the woman and the doctor up to the first three months of pregnancy. There are other interested bodies which are also seriously concerned about the consequences of the Act. There is, for instance the Society of Social Workers, and the medical profession itself has expressed some concern. I believe that 78% of medical practitioners approached by the Centre for Applied Social Sciences in Natal responded by saying that they did not think that the legislation was liberal enough. And finally, that very relevant association, the Family Planning Association, has accepted the need for four additional legal grounds for abortion, for the termination of pregnancy. In the first instance, in respect of girls of 15 years and under. The hon. the Minister will remember that this is something I pressed for very hard during the Second Reading and the Committee Stage of the original Act. Further, it should apply in the case of women of 40 years and over; then, also, in the case of women who have already given birth to a number of children—the number varies, I may say, between five and eight. The Family Planning Association does not seem to have made up its mind on the ideal number. Finally, it should apply in cases of genuine failed sterilization: if a woman has gone to the trouble of actually having herself sterilized and that operation has been a failure and she subsequently falls pregnant, which does happen in a limited number of cases I do not see how on earth we can refuse that woman a legal abortion.

Surely, with all this growing evidence of discontent with the Act, the hon. the Minister will consider some amendments to the Act. I am not at this juncture asking for abortion on request within 12 weeks, although I must say at once that that is what I personally support. However, I know it is quite hopeless to ask for anything like that in an all-male House of Assembly. I have not got a hope of getting a sympathetic hearing in a House of this kind. [Interjections.]

Do not be so sure.

I will say immediately that there are notable exceptions of which I am aware. I know the hon. member for Bryanston will certainly support this demand keenly. I hope that, to judge by the noises the hon. member for Jeppe is making, he too will spring up and support me in this request, and also other hon. members who are making such a noise. Sir, I withdraw my all-over condemnation, but I would say that it probably applies to the vast majority for, after all, when I asked that this matter be debated on a non-party basis during the Committee Stage of the Act, I would not say that I got no reasonable support, but, certainly, I got no support of any practical value.

What I want is a change in the definition of “unlawful carnal intercourse” to include “carnal intercourse with a girl under the age of 16.” That was the definition in the original 1973 draft Bill which was sent to the all-male Select Committee which was subsequently converted into the all-male commission of inquiry. I want a change in the definition, which will cut down on the lengthy procedures that are presently involved, even in the case of school girls of 15 and under who, through ignorance or irresponsibility, happen to fall pregnant, unfortunate creatures as they are. I want to say that this occurrence is by no means unusual. According to the last report of the MOH of Cape Town, the report for 1975, 70% of children born to teenage mothers in the city were illegitimate. Of those, 21 babies were born to 14 year-olds, 90 to 15 year-olds and 309 to 16 year-olds. I also ask for amendments to reduce the complicated and humiliating procedures the Act demands regarding rape victims who become pregnant. I ask for a drastic cut in the time involved in these procedures because by the time the woman concerned has all the necessary certificates, even for a legal abortion, it is often too late for her to have that legal abortion. Particularly in country districts it takes far too long for all the necessary certificates to be assembled. Then, I ask, for instanc, for a change in clause 3(1)(b) which makes it so very difficult for a woman to obtain an abortion on grounds of mental health. The Departmental Report in giving statistics on legal abortions, on page 66, uses the right language in this connection. It talks about the continued pregnancy being “a serious threat to the mental health of the woman”. But the Act is not couched in those terms. It does not refer to “serious threat.” It talks about the danger of permanent damage to the woman’s mental health. That is something which is very difficult indeed for any doctor, and more particularly a psychiatrist, to assess. Therefore, I ask for the Act to be amended to use the very language used in the Department of Health’s annual report in describing abortions which are granted for this reason. Finally, I obviously ask the hon. the Minister to consider the recommendations of the Family Planning Association which is a very, very relevant organization as far as population control is concerned in South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, at the outset I wish to thank the hon. member for Rosettenville for his introductory and laudatory remarks in respect to the annual report. The hon. member for Bryanston, and also other hon. members added similar remarks to his. All in all they believe that we have done a splendid job. I know that the hon. member for Rosettenville is concerned about various aspects of medical care in South Africa—as he has always been; he is a dedicated man—and I usually make a careful note of the matters he raises. He has mentioned the fact that he is a little worried about the fact that there will not be enough personnel to administer the new Health Act. On that point I can tell the hon. member that this is precisely one of the objects of the Act, namely to co-ordinate and save health manpower as such. So as far as that is concerned, I think we can only have a better dispensation than we had in the past. Of course, I cannot tell the hon. member that it will be ideal, but, nevertheless, we are going to increase and better our services.

The hon. member was also concerned about medical tuition in South Africa and that, proportionately speaking, we do not have enough doctors for our entire population. As far as that is concerned, I must remind him that we have one doctor for less than every 2 000 people in South Africa, a figure which is at least four times better than any other country in the rest of Africa.

The others are very bad.

Yes, the position is still not ideal, but, as I have said, another effect of the new Act is going to be that we will be able to distribute this manpower better than we did in the past. That is important. The new Medical University of Southern Africa at Ga-Rankuwa is going to allow the admission of second year students from next year on. There are moves afoot to allow more non-White students to attend universities, even open universities. We are examining the position at the moment. I cannot say anymore than that at this stage. However, we are also perturbed about this fact, that we do not have the manpower. Our record of the past as far as that matter in general is concerned is not something to be very proud of. We of course did our utmost and I think we have a good record as far as the White medical manpower is concerned. In that respect I think we did a splendid job. But no country in the world has unlimited resources. As far as the Coloured population is concerned there are only 2 000 to 2 500 who matriculate each year, and of those perhaps 35% have the qualifications to start a medical course. But these have to be distributed also amongst the other professions. They cannot all be absorbed into the medical faculties. So all these matters are important, but I can assure the hon. member that these matters are being taken care of and the new Act will definitely help and aid us in eventually reaching this goal.

*The hon. member, as well as the hon. member for Cradock, spoke about district surgeons. As far as district surgeons are concerned, we are tremendously indebted to these people, people who are rendering exceptional services to South Africa, while they, too, are but small in number. The full-time district surgeons render services on a full-time basis and are fully salaried persons. There are a large number of vacancies, particularly for part-time district surgeons, for whom there are 49 vacancies. It is in respect of the rural areas in particular, where large distances have to be covered in order to render the services, that I wish to express a word of thanks to these people, as well as to the nurses. They are helping to render services. We have a problem in that regard, and the hon. member for Cradock discussed it. There are some of these part-time district surgeons, unfortunately as a result of the fact that they are not willing to work for salaries—salaries have improved a great deal during the past few years although we have not been able to improve the salaries during the last two years—who are nevertheless willing to do the additional work for reasonable and fair salaries. I want to express my thanks to these people. The problem is that at a stage at which we have to contend with difficult financial problems, it happens that because we have to pay medical aid scheme fees to doctors if they do not wish to conclude a contract with the State for these services, the costs have increased fivefold, as the hon. member for Cradock said.

As far as I am concerned, this is an important aspect, something which deserves attention. However I can assure hon. members that these services in our country are on a far higher level than in most other parts of the world. We are succeeding in acquiring medical practitioners who are rendering the services in neighbouring towns which would otherwise have been rendered by a district surgeon.

†The hon. member also referred to the possibility of making greater use of the services of nurses. He suggested that nurses should be used where their services could be employed profitably, especially so that doctors need not be burdened with tasks which they need not necessarily perform, tasks which can just as well be carried out by nurses. Nurses, he said, should be trained so that they will be able to perform such duties. I can assure the hon. member that with our new community services approach we are definitely involving nurses in community health services. They are also involved in comprehensive health treatment at clinics, as well as in the treatment of tuberculosis, in community services, in specialized courses, in psychiatric treatment, in out-patient treatment, etc.

Finally, the hon. member referred to the Johannesburg General Hospital. That is perhaps something for the future. However, I can assure the hon. member that next year, when the new legislation is promulgated, the Department of Health will have a co-ordinating function at the top. We will then be much better capable of adopting an integrated approach to the better application of these facilities. Nevertheless, this is something for the future.

*The hon. member for Fauresmith referred to the warning addressed to the department that medical costs should not be increased, as far as the medical aid schemes and the Confederation of Labour are concerned. In my honest opinion we should not allow a matter such as this to degenerate into a dispute. However, I want to make an appeal to all those concerned to display a sense of responsibility in these times. A few weeks ago I spoke to leaders of the medical profession because, as far as the new legislation was concerned, I did in fact find myself in the dilemma which has just been referred to. This dilemma is that a Remuneration Commission is appointed every two years. However, it depends on the medical practitioners themselves whether, in regard to the percentage of medical practitioners who contract in, they wish to make use of increased tariffs. I was given the assurance that in this cases as well the same measure of responsibility and self-control will be shown as was shown elsewhere in the country in such a commendable manner by workers. It is a sacrifice for which I have great respect. Therefore I do not believe that we should set a dispute in motion in this regard between people who all realize their responsibility, particularly not in a time in which we can least afford an increase in medical costs. I have every confidence that the medical profession will also realize its duties and responsibility in this respect.

The hon. member referred in passing to how private medical practitioners will in future regard their position-as being of importance to themselves. I should just like to point out briefly that, on the occasion of the meeting of the S.A. Medical Association in Bloemfontein, I stated unequivocally that, as far as South Africa was concerned, the position of the private medical practitioner was such that it was not possible to interfere with it in any way. The private medical practitioner retained his present position. There will be a free choice of medical practitioners and patients. However, it is the case that in the times in which we are living, each profession sometimes has to give up a little of its own authority because it is in the general interest for them to do so. I believe that medical practitioners will play their part in that respect as well. I am not in favour of a socialized system or of a State medical scheme, as is found elsewhere in the world. In many countries a similar scheme is already requiring so much money that it is no longer possible to pay for it.

Then there is the question of family planning. I believe the hon. member for Berea also referred to this. I just want to sketch to hon. members what my department has in fact achieved so far in regard to family planning and what we still expect to achieve in the years which lie ahead. But first I want to furnish certain particulars. I recall that someone mentioned sterilization and abortion. During the past year 15 164 voluntary sterilization operations were performed.

In other words, the motivation which emanated from the department to people who had two or more children—I am not referring to population groups here—is beginning to meet with a response. I agree that it is less successful among the Bantu, because the Bantu have certain socio-cultural beliefs and customs which one has to take into consideration. One has to persuade the Bantu; one cannot force him into doing anything. In all honesty, however, I could say that we have already made great strides with this service, and that people are, to an ever-increasing extent, beginning to realize their responsibility. Today there are 1 953 clinics. The hon. members know that a few years ago we were not even able to count these clinics in their hundreds. There are at least 1 222 officials—medical practitioners, guidance officers, district and farm nurses—who treat women at these clinics. Their number has almost doubled over a period of five years, from 437 000 to 850 000. These people attend the clinics and are motivated there. This is having an effect.

Apart from the costs involved in these schemes, which already amount to R6 million this year, a statistical projection indicates that the effect of this family planning is such that we can expect that if this planning tendency continues, and also the way in which the population growth has diminished, we shall by the year 2020 have prevented at least 13 million births. I am referring mostly to the Whites, Coloureds and Asians. The Bantu are not willing to allow one to compile statistics concerning them. According to estimates, their birth-rate is approximately 40. But if the programme should be continued a projection of 66 million people will be limited to approximately 53 million. The birth-rate of the Whites, Coloureds and Asians will perhaps have diminished to approximately 15, while that of the Bantu possibly to 20. I do not want to say any more about this, except that family planning is something which one should do by way of persuasion.

One has to motivate, and one can do this by means of programmes. We pursue these programmes through all the media, through personal instruction and through thorough training of these people by means of courses which we offer from time to time for all staff, from medical practitioners down to nurse aids. Our target with the programme is to reach 50% of all women who are capable of falling pregnant by 1980. We have already reached this target in respect of certain of the population groups. I think we are making reasonably good progress. However, the hon. members must not come to me with the story of population control. In the South African society one has to take cognizance of the approach of people to this type of matter. We cannot simply proceed to apply coercion from above in these cases. A population which is motivated to apply these things of its own accord, to ensure its own future and survival, is a population which will pull its own weight, but the nation which one has to coerce from above, is not one with which one will get very far.

†I just want to reply to the hon. member for Houghton at this stage. She mentioned the problems under the Abortion and Sterilization Act which we put on the Statute Book about two years ago. Thus far I do not see any reason why we should now change any of the provisions of the Act, because nothing has really happened in the past two years to convince me that there is anything special or new or that there is any change in the attitude of the general public at large or of certain specific groups in the public towards free abortion. Although she did couch it in other terms, I can tell her that nevertheless it is just about the same as the attitude of the Abortion Reform League. They made representations on the 27 April in which they asked me to make provision for amendments to the Act allowing for abortion for socio-economic reasons, for family planning purposes and on request up to the first three months of unwanted pregnancy. I think that is the gist of what the hon. member also asked for.

However, I must tell her that these proposals are unacceptable to the Government. I shall not say for ever and ever, because circumstances change.

You shall not be there for ever and ever.

I am not prepared to consider an amendment at this stage or to act on these lines.

What about the recommendations of the Family Planning Association?

Yes, that is important, but the Family Planning Association does not decide the policy with regard to that. They are a sectional group. We do aid them to a certain extent by subsidizing them. As far as I am concerned, what they say is not the alpha and the omega.

According to their representations, the medical profession expressed its concern with the workings of the Act. I have to listen to the representations of the Medical Association, not from a single person expressing an opinion on a matter like this. I am not aware that the Abortion Reform League is really the spokesman for the medical profession.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he will perhaps give us some figures about the illegal or septic abortions which have been performed over the last two years?

I do not know where the hon. member gets her figures from. One can do anything with figures. My department is not a police department. In cases of this nature people usually cover up. If there is anything illegal about it, the police should know about it. They are actually the people who must supply us with information.

I mean the people who land up in hospital and of whom statistics are kept. Many of them do land up in hospital.

That is a provincial matter.

Dodging the question.

In time we might be able to obtain these statistics, but I think it is not possible for me to obtain them at present.

She should keep quiet for a change now.

I also think she may as well keep quiet now.

†I want to tell the hon. member for Bryanston, who is a patron of the local authorities, that I agree with the sentiments he has expressed and the things he has suggested. As far as I am concerned, this is exactly what we are doing. I have the greatest sympathy for it. This is the way we are going to do these things with regard to clinic, hospital and out-patient services. Clinical services are a provincial matter. As far as out-patient services are concerned, we shall definitely involve the local authorities. I can assure him of that. Medical appliances are, of course, supplied to these geriatric patients. I am not very happy about it, but unfortunately we have lately, because of finances, not been able to supply all the people who are in need of it. But I can just say that the geriatric patients, like all patients, will definitely benefit from the new health dispensation.

*The hon. member for Newcastle referred to Scientology. I shall reply to the hon. member on that matter at a later stage, but I do not want to spend a great deal of time on these people. The hon. member for Berea raised the question of family planning, but I have already replied to that.

†The homelands now have their own medical services, but we are in liaison with them and they assist us because they are also motivated. Here it is also a matter of gradually winning over the people to one’s point of view.

*The hon. member for Brentwood discussed industrial health. The commission of inquiry has already made its recommendations in this regard, and very good progress has been made in this direction. However, there is at present a commission which is implementing this information, after the Cabinet had decided on the principles, so that we might quite possibly have an Industrial Health Act by next year.

I think I have replied to the special representations made by the hon. member for Cradock in regard to district surgeons, and I have also conveyed my thanks to these people. The hospital orientated services will in future, particularly because we envisage placing the district surgeons under provincial control, be able to become increasingly, a facet of the new medical approach.

†I think I have just about answered all the hon. members who took part in the debate.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister, in reply to a question of mine earlier during this session on the matter of the abuse of methylated spirits, indicated that he would give a reply to my question during the discussion of his Vote. Is it the hon. the Minister’s intention to give this information during his reply?

Yes, I shall do it later on in the evening. If I forget, the hon. member must please remind me.

May I ask one more question? Will the hon. the Minister not at least give consideration to amending the definitions clause of the Abortion Act as it affects girls under 16, in view of the comments made by Dr. Bloch?

I am always open to suggestions, but I shall have to investigate the matters which the hon. member has raised. I cannot simply tell her that I will not, because I do not usually do that. I have to have an open mind, but the chances are very small that I shall consider any amendment to this Act in the year to come.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Houghton referred to the all-male group on this side of the House. In my view the difference between her and myself is definitely not only anatomical. The relationship between the medical practitioner and the patient can be, and often is, one of the finest, most intimate, confidential, positive, constructive, vitally important and life-saving relationships that can exist between people. In many respects the relationship between the medical practitioner and the patient is comparable with the finest and best relationship which can exist between a man and a woman, a parent and a child, between brothers, sisters, bosom friends and even between a professed Christian and a clergyman. In fact, the relationship between the medical practitioner and the patient often contains strong elements of all the relationships I have just mentioned. I am not just theorizing; I am speaking from the practical experience I have gained over the years and I can call hundreds of my former patients as witnesses. I can also cite hundreds of my colleagues who can call thousands of their patients as witnesses. Many hon. members in the House have already discussed their specific problems with me and have then proudly referred to what their doctors had to say about those problems. Usually they beam with pride and confidence in their medical practitioners.

My argument, in point of fact, concerns the private practitioners and it might be interesting if I just mentioned the fact, at this stage, that on 31 December last year the names of 13 946 medical practitioners were on the register. Not all of them, of course, are practising, because some of them have entered more lucrative professions such as farming, etc. There are approximately 12 000 who are practising. Of the 13 946, 10 516 are general practitioners. In 1973 a survey was made in which it was discovered that about 50% of all doctors are in private practice and that approximately 66% of private practitioners are general practitioners. I want to pay more specific attention to this group.

Unfortunately here and there the relationship between the doctor and patient which I referred to, has deteriorated over the past few years or, to put it in the mildest terms has weakened or been disrupted in our community. Perhaps it is not as serious as some people want to make out. As I have just said, many patients often say: My doctor is a good one; it is only the others who are not good. The relationship is not that bad, but it has definitely deteriorated. It augurs ill for the patient, the doctor, the health services, the Medical Council, the State and everyone else. It bodes no one any good. So I ask myself: What is the reason for this deterioration, here and there, in the doctor/patient relationship? There are many reasons and I cannot go into all of them in a speech of 10 minutes. The urbanization and industrialization of our population, the accelerated tempo of modern life, the mechanization of everything, the spiritual superficialization taking place in the world, amongst both doctors and patients, are all factors which play a role in this deterioration of relationships.

Today, however, I should like to refer specifically to two other reasons which, on the one hand, are a threat to the doctor/patient relationship but, on the other hand, are also a threat to private general practices in this country, The first reason which I want to mention is the method by which the fees of the private medical practitioners are determined and the second is the Yellow Press. I am not one to complain about the Press every day because they also do a great deal of good work. In this case, however, I shall have to do so. We must accept that medical schemes are here to stay and that the Medical Schemes Act is here to stay too. In fact, the doctors started up the medical schemes.

I ask myself, however, whether our method is the correct one. At the moment doctors have to say they want more money. In that case a judge and assessors are appointed and the doctors have to fight, argue and reason on the one hand, while, on the other, the medical schemes oppose the arguments. In the meantime the Press gaily and irresponsibly brings out its articles. Early last month there were reports with the following headlines: “Financial Shock for Members of Medical Schemes” and “Contributions Drastically Increased.” A report states the following: “The doctors can charge what they like.” This is a lie, because no doctor can charge what he likes. The same report states: “Doctors who do not recognize the medical funds, can charge patients what they like.” I say that this is a lie. The report goes on: “The only requirement is that their fees should be fair and reasonable.” The title of the report, however, states that doctors can charge what they like. Hon. members can also take note of these headlines: “Medical Schemes Requests Law Against Doctors” and “Higher Fees May Lead to Chaos.” So I can go on, because I have a thick pile of reports here and a cardboard box full at home.

The way in which the fees are determined and the way the Press deals with this, is breaking down the good doctor/patient relationship and it is also breaking down private practice. If it is such a good method, surely we could simply ask Mr. Justice Erasmus to quickly determine the maize price for the hon. the Minister of Agriculture. Then the farmers on the one hand could ask for more, and the Vroue vir Vrede and the Housewife’s League, on the other hand, could fight for a decrease in prices. Why can we not ask a judge to determine the fees for advocates and attorneys? It is a ridiculous way of doing things and it is not a good way either. [Interjections.] Hon. members over there are already objecting, but this is nevertheless the way in which doctors’ fees are determined. I think we should take another look at whether this provision is a good one.

Speaking of the Press, I want to refer to a report which appeared in The Star of 29 December 1976. Under the headline “Medical Fee Plan Criticized” the report states—

The report also states that the Medical Association is asking for increased fees and that the Post Office Medical Aid Scheme issued the following statement—

I have already said that our method is wrong. Now I quote further—

Mr. Chairman, there are two possibilities here. Either the newspaper is lying, which is then a blatant discrediting of doctors and their work, or the newspaper is telling the truth, and if the newspaper is telling the truth and a “leading authority for the State” does, in fact, say this type of thing, I think that the doctors can demand that the State and the Minister repudiate such a statement. The issue here is the way in which the fees are determined and the way in which the Press deals with the matter.

My time is running out. On the basis of what I have said here, I want to make an appeal to every one today, because in the first and final instance it is the patient who is involved. The patient is the most important factor. On occasion the hon. the Minister said—and the secretary and other leaders have also said this—that private practice is still the backbone of the health services in the country. But in connection with this sort of thing that causes irritation, causes dissention, results in superficialization and distorts relationships, I want to make an appeal to everyone—the State, the medical schemes, the Medical Council, the Medical Association and the individual doctors themselves—to make an intensive study of ways and means of bringing about better liaison between all these groups, specifically to eliminate this type of problem.

I mentioned the Medical Schemes Act. One can also take a look at the constitution of the South African Medical and Dental Council. The council may be quite a good one. I also said that at least one-third of the doctors of South Africa are private general practitioners, but how many of them are on the Medical Council? I am personally acquainted with many of the people on the Medical Council. I can mention their names. There are people like Prof. Snyman, one of the leading medical practitioners our country has produced, a man under whom I had the honour of studying. There are people like Gen. Cockroft. These are people of character and integrity in every sense of the word, leaders in their field. There is a Secretary for Health and the Minister of Health. I have the utmost confidence in all these people, but one sometimes asks oneself whether it has not been too many years since these people used a private practitioner’s stethoscope. Do they still know precisely how the doctor of today feels? Do they know what his working conditions are? Does the private practitioner who is, as the hon. the Minister himself has said, the backbone of the health services in this country, have proper representation on that Council? My plea is for good liaison and co-operation so that we can iron out this kind of problem.

Mr. Chairman, as a layman in the field of medicine, I want to talk about a very important matter in the short time at my disposal. When I have finished, I think that the hon. the Minister and hon. members who are going to listen to me, will agree with me that there was merit in my plea. I want to ask for representations to be made to the South African Medical Research Council, through the hon. the Minister and the Department of Health, to make more funds available for cancer research and the treatment of cancer, more specifically with a view to chemotherapy. More than 200 types of cancer occur in man. One out of every four people will get cancer. The cancer mortality rate is increasing much faster than the population increase. The increase is also out of all proportion to the increase in life expectancy. In the year 1900 cancer was responsible for 3% of the deaths in Europe. By 1938 this figure had increased to 12,6%; by 1948 to 15% and in 1976 to 20,9%. For years cancer has been the second major cause of death. Cancer is not a disease limited solely to old people. Cancer is the major cause of death in the 4-14 age group in civilized communities throughout the world. According to the Department of Statistics, information from death certificates in South Africa reflects the following: Whites who died of cancer in the year 1912 constituted 5,99% of all deaths that year. In other words, cancer was the cause of death in virtually 6% of all cases. In 1975 the percentage had increased to almost 16%.

Cancer research is something which is planned and carried out on a world-wide scale. The surgical and radio-therapeutic disciplines have reached their zenith, so they will not gain much from research or the further extension of service facilities. Only 20% of the cancer patients who consult a doctor can be cured by surgical and radio-therapeutic treatment. Consequently, for the majority of cancer cases, the hope lies in cancer chemotherapy. There is an annual increase in the number of patients who are cured by means of chemical preparations. There is an even greater increase in the number of patients, without any previous treatment, who are being helped so much by the anti-cancer preparations that they can still enjoy years of productive living.

The following figures and data are on record at the Department of Cancer Chemo-therapy of the H. F. Verwoerd Hospital in Pretoria: In 1974 there were 419 new patients, and the deaths for that year amounted to 303; in 1976 there were 608 new patients and the death rate was 272. One therefore notes that although the number of patients had increased, the death rate is dropping. This is the position at the cancer chemo-therapy department of the H. F.

Verwoerd Hospital in Pretoria. The rapid process in the sphere of cancer chemo-therapy, however, has meant a serious lack of facilities for the necessary expansion. The Department of Cancer Chemo-therapy of the H. F. Verwoerd Hospital in Pretoria and the University of Pretoria, under the guidance of Prof. Falkson, form part of the world team on cancer research and cancer chemo-therapy, and a great deal of money is allocated to Prof. Falkson and his department for this purpose by the USA. During the last few years increasing emphasis has been placed on the importance of applied clinical research. The work can only be tackled by thoroughly trained doctors with years of post-graduate experience. So far the University of Pretoria is the only place in our country where such training is available. Consequently, any more research or training funds for this purpose could best be granted to the University of Pretoria.

Throughout the world, the policy is that there should rather be a limited number of specialized cancer centres. I feel myself at liberty to ask for a co-ordinated cancer centre at the University of Pretoria where a formidable Department of Cancer Chemo-therapy already exists. Furthermore I want to ask that if the Department of Health can arrange a visit to the Department of Cancer Chemo-therapy of the H. F. Verwoerd Hospital in Pretoria for the various parliamentary study groups on health, their progress and their needs will immediately become quite clear. We, who govern the country, would find that very informative.

Mr. Chairman, I have been listening with interest to the speech made by the hon. member for Maraisburg. He dealt with a specific subject and I do not want to reply to that. In fact, it does not call for a reply. I do agree, however, that cancer is something which should be the concern of all of us.

† Mr. Chairman, I also want to talk about the Abortion and Sterilization Act and I want to deal with some of the arguments advanced by the hon. member for Houghton. It is with a measure of caution that one approaches this experienced and sometimes difficult member.

Do not worry. I shall not bite you.

I say this particularly because she is old enough to have been my mother. However, when someone puts up a poor case, I think it is in the interests of parliamentary government and the standards of our Parliament to shoot that case down. I think the hon. member for Houghton let the cat out of the bag when she indicated that she was in favour of abortion on demand in the first three months.

On request!

She does not like the emotive term, but she likes “back-street abortions”, for example. The interesting thing is that the hon. member went straight for the provision which provides the greatest loophole, namely section 3(1 )(b) and wants that amended. It is precisely that provision which has made a mockery of the British Act, such a mockery, in fact, that in February this year the Abortion Amendment Act, as a private member’s motion, had a Second Reading in the House of Commons and was passed by 170 votes to 132!

I believe that it is important too for us to realize that the chorus for support which the hon. member listed is not so strong. Only one branch of the National Council for Women passed a motion in favour of abortion, namely the Port Elizabeth branch. Against that, at the National Council for Women’s national conference the whole question of abortion had a very difficult ride, despite strong pressure from the Abortion Reform Action Group. Furthermore, the report of the Women’s Legal Status Committee was written by the chairman of the Abortion Reform Action Group and, in fact, throughout one finds the Abortion Reform Action Group standing behind this whole matter. They are a very small, highly motivated, committed and, indeed, ruthless group of people, people who are prepared to do anything to have abortion on request allowed in South Africa.

I would like to congratulate the department on producing these statistics. I am very pleased to see these statistics and I am very pleased that I myself have not had to pose a number of parliamentary questions to get this kind of information. However, we immediately note that it is under section 3(1 )(b) of the Act that more than half of the abortions are done. I would like to know from the hon. the Minister why this is the case and whether the State psychiatrists are, in fact, applying this law properly. Overseas, and I want to quote from page 233 of Gardner’s book “Abortion—the Personal Dilemma”, some psychiatrists will say—

That is the extent to which some psychiatrists will go. A professor of obstetrics said—

As I understand it, there are only two mental conditions which can cause permanent mental damage, namely endogenous depression and chronic schizophrenia. I hope that these are, in fact, the reasons why these abortions have been allowed.

These statistics are very important for countering wild claims. Headlines have already appeared in The Cape Times to the effect that there were 250 000 illegal abortions in South Africa. It is patent nonsense, because in the UK it was claimed that there were 100 000 illegal abortions. Yet this year there were 35 000 abortions, because they now have reliable statistics. Most of those abortions, they allege, were on foreign women. So the figure of 100 000 for the UK is palpable nonsense. That figure, however, was used actively by abortionists and by those wanting abortion on request to support their case. I believe that there is no better way of debunking the nonsense which is written by these people than to have reliable statistics. I want to support the hon. member for Houghton in this respect, that we do need to have statistics on septic abortions. We do not have adequate statistics, partly because the hospitals classify abortions, both spontaneous and septic, as abortions.

I believe some attempt should be made to differentiate between these two types of abortion. However, I believe that attacks will continue to be launched on the Act. We have had some examples from the hon. member for Houghton. These attacks will basically rest on five arguments. The first one is an underlying assumption that human life is expendable and that we are purely material, whereas, in terms of the constitution of the Republic of South Africa we believe that human life has a God-given function and that the absolute undergirding of liberty is to protect life.

The second argument we will find is the argument of the back street abortionist. This is something which is not even resolved when one has liberal abortion laws. Even then, one still has back street abortions occurring. It does not resolve that problem. Unfortunately we are going to have this kind of emotive concept thrown at us all the time. The third category is the socio-economic argument. This I object to because it is an assumption that the poor people are destined to have abortions. Or, we get this sort of Houghton dilettante argument: It is bad for my figure to have a baby at this stage, or, I must go skiing next year and I cannot possible be pregnant.

Now you are talking absolute nonsense! [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman

You are talking absolute rubbish! [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, many people see abortion as a solution to social problems. We know that the people for whom they are the greatest social problem, are people who will not even practise family planning. How do we expect them to make use of abortion as a solution to their problem? Attempts have even been made to ally baby battering to abortion, however, most babies that are battered are wanted babies. In fact, the ultimate in baby battering is abortion.

The population explosion argument is a very weak one. In Western Europe the population was controlled, not through abortion on demand, but through economic development. The whole population control is an ecological process. It comes through economic development, education, a better future etc. To my way of thinking it is extremely silly to use abortion as an answer to the population explosion. It is also economic madness, for it is much more expensive.

The fifth category is, of course, the argument of a woman’s right. I believe that the woman is a very important factor. However, she is not the only person who has rights. The baby has a right. The society has a right. The woman’s real right is, when she is in the process of conceiving a baby, to say “no”. [Interjections.] I accept that this is a hard case. [Interjections.]

You and the hon. the Minister are male chauvinists!

I believe that the House must appreciate—the hon. the Minister and his department in particular must appreciate—that they are going to get all kinds of simplistic, propagandistic, emotive arguments aimed at changing the Act. I was very pleased to have the hon. the Minister’s assurance that he does not yet have adequate evidence to lead him to believe that the Act should be amended.

You are male chauvinists, you and the hon. the Minister!

Order!

I do not have time to deal with this very complicated subject in ten minutes. I would just like to quote from Sir John Staworthy, one of the finest gynaecologists in the world. He says—

I believe we have a good Act and I believe it is working well. While we may want to improve it, I believe we must seek to preserve the right emphasis which we have, and that is the value of human life.

Mr. Chairman, it is not often that I agree to some extent with the hon. member for Pinetown, but I must say that I prefer to agree with the attitude adopted by him a matter of principle with regard to the question of abortion on demand, rather than with the more liberal attitude adopted by the hon. member for Houghton.

The Health Act, 1977, was passed earlier this session. This legislation resulted from the need to establish a comprehensive and over-all health policy. In this legislation a slight shift of emphasis was apparent, a shift from the curative to the preventive, and it had the support of all of us. On the occasion the transfer of personal health services to the provinces, the hon. member for Fauresmith said he hoped that comprehensive, personal health services would not supersede the private practitioner in society. In his reply to this the hon. the Minister said that as far as he was concerned and as far as it was within his power, the private practitioner would retain his place as an integral part of the health set-up in South Africa.

I cannot but agree 100% with this point of view. We cannot allow our patients to be deprived of the privilege of their own family doctor. A patient-doctor relationship, started voluntarily and with mutual understanding, has no substitute. It remains that intimately personal and delicate understanding between one person and another. This is so because the human being is not a cold machine to be handled by an efficient technician. No, Sir, the patient needs a family doctor who knows and understands the patient’s home background, his deepest joys and fears, his frustrations and all the finer nuances of the human soul. The influence these things have on the human body, is sometimes much greater than one realizes and therefore it can only be the family friend, the councillor and confidant of the family who is best able to evaluate and diagnose illness. He is the most able and best qualified to handle his patient and to give advice in times of need and deep anxiety.

It is true that medical costs, like all other costs, have escalated in recent times. The historic course of events is that Governments and the powers that be have looked for possible solutions to the problem. For example, the first post-war Labour Government in England established a national health service in 1948 to provide free medical services, medicine and hospitalization to the whole population. This nationalization of Britain’s health services has now become such a gigantic monster that the British nation has to pay no less than R8 206 million per year for it. It caused so much frustration and dissatisfaction amongst British doctors that many doctors emigrated. It discouraged young people to such an extent from qualifying as doctors that an alarming increase in the number of immigrant doctors occurred, to the detriment of that nation. That happened because the delicate, personal care of the sick can only be undertaken completely by a compatriot. This is clear as daylight and we cannot deny it. That is why the sighs for private practices are heard ever more clearly from that quarter. In Sweden, for example, which has the most developed social services the cost of medical services increased fivefold in the period from 1960 to 1970, while it did not even double in South Africa. That should be a warning to us never to think of nationalizing health services in this country. It will be a sad day and will only be to our detriment.

Let us for one moment consider the position of private practices in South Africa today. If we look at this, there is also reason for concern and I want to agree with the hon. member for Krugersdorp in this regard. There are factors which contribute to the threatening of the traditionally high standards and even the survival of family doctor practices in South Africa. I should like to indicate a few factors. In the first instance I should like to refer to the whole system of medical aid funds, or benefit funds, as we know them today. There is the well-known large organization which acts as employer of the doctor too and in this way provides medical services for other employees. In all these cases there is necessarily to a greater or lesser extent a disturbance of the normal doctor/patient relationship as a result of the intervention of a third party. The normal understanding between the two parties is necessarily influenced by the financial responsibility assumed by a third party. That gives rise to malpractices, on the part of the doctor as well as on the part of the patient. This may tempt the doctor, and it does indeed sometimes tempt him, to take unnecessary therapeutical action and to prescribe unnecessary, expensive, sophisticated medication. It is true and we cannot deny it.

However, it also undoubtedly causes the patient to be tempted to use the medical services in an irresponsible way by wasting the doctor’s time on minor complaints, in the knowledge that the medical aid scheme will pay. This gives rise to the well-known calls every doctor receives, for example from the husband who phones and says, “My wife sneezed twice. I think she is getting a cold. Doctor, please come and see her at home,” or the mother who phones and says, “Little Johnny has been fretful for days, but he is playing at the neighbours at the moment and I shall only be home after 19h00. Doctor, please come and see him after 19h00,” or the worried patient who phones at 02h00 and says, “This hollow feeling in the pit of my stomach which has been worrying me for the last two months, is now driving me crazy, please come”.

Every doctor knows this kind of thing. It occurs daily. We should note that doctors who have contracted out and who charge a higher fee for home and after hour calls today, do not have this problem. That is why we have 2 008 doctors today who have contracted out. I want to make the statement that many of them did not contract out because of a higher fee, but that it is also as a result of standpoints based on principles that they are not contracted in in terms of the Act.

I shall not have the time to refer to all the other factors disturbing the normal doctor/patient relationship, for example, the exaggerated desire of patients to consult specialists, specialists seeing patients without their having been referred by a doctor, patients who have no free choice of a doctor, the large industrial organization laying down a certain policy with regard to medication prescribed by a member and in this way curbing the professional autonomy of the doctor and making it difficult for him to establish a good doctor/patient relationship.

In conclusion I should like to point out the tendency of some news media to mar the doctor/public relationship even further by destructive articles and negative reporting on the medical profession. I can quote many examples. I should like to point out one example specifically. A report in the Sunday Express of 24 April states—

This creates suspicion and distrust among the public with regard to the medical profession.

The survival of especially the family doctor’s practice in South Africa as a necessary and integral part of comprehensive health care must be protected. There is still too much misunderstanding, as we learnt this afternoon. All the people concerned, the patient, the medical aid scheme and the doctor are talking at cross purposes. I also want to advocate that the various interested parties get together to eliminate bottlenecks which may exist. The possibilities of a permanent link between parties, which will establish a level of communication, should be investigated. It is in the interests of our patients. It is important that we in South Africa reach consensus, otherwise there is only one person who will suffer from a lack of consensus, and that is the sick patient.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just sat down has treated us to a very interesting discussion on the question of a national health service and some of the abuses that can take place. I am sure the matter will be very carefully considered by all sides of the House in due course.

I want to deal with the question of the notifications of tuberculosis and the meaning and interpretation this has in dealing with this particular disease, which is unfortunately still encountered in epidemic proportions. It is rather interesting to note that the assessments for 1976 indicate that the notifications have shown quite a dramatic drop from about 65 000 notifiable cases in 1975 to about 55 300 cases. The problem that arises in this regard is whether these figures really indicate a true picture of the incidence of tuberculosis in South Africa. We know that of all diseases, 90% of the deaths from notifiable diseases occur in the field of tuberculosis. In considering what these figures really mean, my contention is that what in fact is happening is that we are not able to reach the vast public of the country in investigating, surveying and dealing with the whole question of tuberculosis and its incidence amongst people. It has been proved by experience that to rely on public appeals, on the efforts of district surgeons and on the efforts of the department generally to persuade people to come for attention, to be tested and to be examined, does not meet with the response one would wish when dealing with an epidemic of this nature. It has been found by the S.A. National Tuberculosis Association, for instance, that there is only one method of dealing with this matter, viz. to deal with it by way of control schemes which they have established. Santa is a close partner and associate of the Department of Health in this particular field. It is, although an established fact in law, somehow not appreciated by the public that immunization against tuberculosis by the normal BCG vaccination, is a compulsory requirement.

We find, particularly in the rural areas, that hardly 50% or 60% of the people have been reached in regard to the knowledge of the importance of immunization and the actual application of such immunization. In regard to the question of control schemes, Santa found when they went into Sebokeng that when they, through circulars and through other forms of publicity, asked people to come to various clinics and centres for attention, only 45% of the people responded. When a control scheme was established, a scheme whereby homes were virtually combed right throughout this particular closed community, 97% of the population was reached. The result was that a number of new cases were discovered. A considerable number of children were immunized and attention was given to adults of various ages, who were examined and treated where necessary. Recently the department co-operated and played a very important and valuable part in encouraging Santa to undertake a survey and a control scheme in the Orange Free State. During the last five years approximately 105 000 children were actually Heaf tested and approximately 80 000 were vaccinated. This project did not cover the entire Free State, because the funds were not available as readily as one would have liked them to be available.

There is still a large number of gaps in the community where nothing at all has been done and where nothing can be done, unless the funds are made available for this specific purpose, if not for any other purpose. In the Eastern Province, for instance, the department invited Santa to do a survey and to investigate the situation. They did so and they discussed the matter very fully with the Regional Director of Health, with the local authority and with the divisional council of the area. As a result of these talks, the local authority placed approximately R100 000 on its budget with the object of obtaining the necessary subsidy and assistance from the department in order to pursue this particular control scheme. Santa went to a great deal of trouble preparing itself and its own personnel for the pursuance of the scheme. For some reason or another it was found that there were not sufficient funds available, and so this particular control scheme had to be postponed after money had been spent by the organization as well as its branches and other bodies in order to prepare the ground and to prepare the personnel for the purpose of this scheme.

There are some 400 000 Blacks and Coloureds who would be involved in this particular control scheme in that area. I feel that it is a pity that one should experience this form of frustration in any centre where there is not only a need for the service but where the service can be rendered and where there is an organization which is able to undertake the service. If we eventually establish some method whereby we can deal with this particular disease, every effort should be made to ensure that there is no obstacle in bringing this about. One of the main reasons why I draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to this matter is because this particular aspect unfortunately received some publicity in the newspapers. The article, which I read the other day, was headed “Tough Battle to eliminate TB”. It dealt with this very issue in the Eastern Cape. I thought that the hon. the Minister should be made aware of the matter. Perhaps he can tell us why or perhaps he can suggest how it will be possible to enable not only this particular aspect, but these schemes generally, to be put into operation and to be pursued in the manner I have suggested. We have information to the effect that in South Africa notofications are 23 times higher than in a country such as Australia. This is mainly because of the fact that most of our tuberculosis at the moment is found in the heavily populated Black areas. It is perhaps somewhat trite to inform the hon. the Minister that in heavily populated areas such incidence is not an unusual occurrence, because there are many aspects associated with it which result in this being brought about, but I think it is important to ensure that where the opportunity arises to help we can take advantage of it.

According to the figures in the estimates I notice that although the figure for this year in respect of tuberculosis has been increased from R18,5 million to R20,5 million, funds which have been provided for transfer payments have in fact dropped by R1,3 million and current expenditure has been increased by some R3 million. I am somewhat at a loss to understand why assistance and subsidies to both local authorities and outside organizations have dropped whereas funds allocated for the internal work of the department have increased by approximately 40% to 45%. Perhaps the hon. the Minister will explain that particular aspect to us when he replies in order to give us some appreciation of what these figures imply.

I want to make one further point and that is that unless we are prepared to see a scheme through, it seems a pity to embark on it. I think the Orange Free State should be taken as our best example of the value of this particular form of scheme. With a little more money one could complete the scheme in the entire Free State and with a little more money one could even complete other schemes to which I have drawn the attention of the hon. the Minister.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Jeppe will excuse me if I do not react to his speech, even though he discussed a very important theme. I want to confine myself more specifically to a different ailment or disease, viz. the issue of the population increase, the tremendous growth of our population.

I want to agree with the hon. the Minister—I agree wholeheartedly with him— that this should not be done by compulsion and that people should not ask him to impose population control. We agree on that score. Since it is a matter of such importance I am grateful that a number of hon. members have already had something to say about this matter. Cancer, which is an important disease, has also been discussed here, among other things, but I want to say that an unnecessary increase in population is a cancer in the nation itself which involves a vast number of disadvantages. One wonders whether this family planning programme always enjoys the attention it deserves.

I should like to call family planning, responsible parenthood. It is not merely responsible parenthood, but also responsible citizenship. It is the task of every citizen of the country to see to it that he practices responsible citizenship and in this connection, too, family planning ought to enjoy the highest priority. All strata of the population, and all bodies and persons, ought to be brought into the picture with the aim of educating the people so that they set themselves, as individuals, the question whether this increase could not be limited.

It is calculated that the rate of population increase in South Africa is running at 2,9%, and I rather think that it is even higher than that. That is extremely high, particularly if one bears in mind the heavy demands on housing and therefore on finances, on land, education and so many other spheres which the State has to finance.

This also affects unemployment. When one looks at the child that I want to call the “heartache child” the unwanted child, one finds that in many cases he is unemployed, not because there is no work, but because he is workshy. The background of that child and person is such that he suffers from a tremendous inferiority complex.

The problems are too well known, and we are aware of them, but the question is whether we realize the gravity of the matter. I want to say that it is just as dangerous to know but not to realize as it is not to know. To prevent this vicious circle and to establish a healthy nation and rate of population increase, we shall have to give more attention to the education of our people in general. This applies to all the population groups in South Africa.

People should realize and understand the major task performed in South Africa by the Family Planning Association. This afternoon I want to pay tribute to this association and to its national office staff, its regional organizers and their staff for a task they do well, for their unremitting dedication and their efforts to make every child a wanted child. A child who is not wanted is in fact a heartache child. A nation which cannot control its rate of population increase is waging a devastating war against itself. The results of this are well known. This Family Planning Association is performing a major task in South Africa and I am sorry that in their case, too, there is a lack of funds. In 1972-’73, R90 000 was allocated to them. The biggest allocation thus far was made to them in 1974-’75, viz. R134 000. The subsidy allocated in this connection in the financial year 1977-’78 is a mere R70 000. It will be necessary to take another look at this organization which performs this fine and worthy task to see whether more financial assistance could not be given them. We deplore the fact that one of their regional offices had to be closed due to a lack of funds. They have now begun to undertake private collections. This is progressing well and under the circumstances they are achieving a great deal in this way. I also want to point out that it is an advantage that the membership of the association is not limited to Whites.

In order to overcome the other problems in this connection clinics will have to move closer together. This will therefore require more funds. In the rural areas in particular, these clinics are very difficult to come by. The only Family Planning Association clinic for Whites and non-Whites is in Johannesburg. Clinic hours constitute another problem that affects the public. Nor do the employers in the cities co-operate by allowing their employees to attend these clinics during clinic hours when they have a need to do so. A further problem in this connection is the issue of the hours and the large number of people to the clinics. So many people come to the clinics that personal attention and advice cannot be given to all these people. As a result, the people who attend these clinics lose interest.

Furthermore, Sir, there is a lack of privacy in the clinics. One encounters a gross neglect of women’s personal privacy. The solution to this problem, however, is not merely one of the availability of more funds. If target areas could be stipulated, better-equipped clinics could be constructed at very low cost. This could be done if we knew where the target areas were.

Then, too, there is the question of mobile units which could be enlarged and better equipped. Not enough use is being made of mobile units. More attention will also have to be given to making everyone aware of the gravity of the matter. Greater attention will have to be given to the recruiting of voluntary workers within the communities and in factories and industries. More seminars will have to be held, such as the seminar held in Mafeking, at which 110 of the most important people among the elite of Bophuthatswana were present. More attention will also have to be given to seminars in other homelands. There are homeland leaders who are beginning to take an interest in the promotion of responsible parenthood.

Sir, consideration could also be given to a family planning year so that this idea can take root among the various population groups. It would then be possible to build on that foundation. As I have said, this is an educative task, and serious attention ought to be given to the inclusion of this education as a subdivision of the preparedness courses at schools. The communications media could make a substantial contribution, and the communications media ought also to regard it as a duty to perform this service and should not expect people to pay for it. Here I have in mind the Press, the radio and particularly television. Since this is such a genuinely human and important matter, it can be presented in a very interesting way. People will take notice of it.

Mr. Chairman, I am sure that the fact that a number of hon. members who have so far participated in the debate have directed their remarks to the field of family planning and that one or two hon. members have also referred to abortion has not been lost on the House or the hon. the Minister. I think there is a definite reason why so many hon. members have found it necessary to speak about the problems of the exploding population of South Africa and its socio-economic consequences, and to talk about the extent to which family planning is succeeding and the extent to which it is failing. It is because people are becoming more and more concerned about our exploding population and its consequences, and people are becoming more and more concerned that the authorities should take action while there is still the opportunity to take effective action in this particular field. I would therefore like to reply to one or two of the points that have been made and particularly to refer to the opposition which still exists in this House to the concept of more liberalized abortion laws. Good work has already been done in this field, and I do not want to decry the work that has been done by the department. It is very interesting to study and to read the results of that work. We encourage the officials to continue with the work that has been done. However, it must be pointed out that the results achieved so far are nowhere near satisfactory. When the hon. the Minister says that by the year 2000 the work that is being done will have succeeded in reducing the projected population of 66 million to a population of 53 million, the hon. the Minister is not saying that his department has succeeded. What he is saying is that there is a partial success, a peripheral success, and that to a very large extent we have actually failed to control our population growth to the extent to which we should. In 1960 the South African birth-rate in the case of Whites was 24 per 1 000 people. The African figure was 40 to 45 per 1 000. In 1975 the Whites had lowered their birth-rate to 18,9 per 1 000 whereas the Black birth-rate remained steady at 40 to 45 per 1 000. That is the first point I want to indicate to the hon. the Minister, viz. that as far as the Black peoples of South Africa are concerned, where in particular effective family planning is essential, so far we have not succeeded. Two years ago 6,4% of all White births were illegitimate and the figure for urban African births was 63%. I would like to make one or two remarks with regard to the response of the hon. the Minister and other speakers to the representations that were made by the hon. member for Houghton with regard to the liberalizing of South Africa’s abortion laws. Let us look at the consequences of our population growth, at the consequences of unwanted births, the disruption, the misery and the unhappiness which is caused by unwanted births. Figures on the Reef show that 70% of the deaths in the gynaecological wards of a Black hospital are due to complications following incomplete abortions.

I have already indicated that 63% of the births amongst Africans are illegitimate. Added to that the Institute of Race Relations has shown that 37% of the reasons given for African girls leaving school early were due to pregnancy. A great deal of misery, unhappiness and disruption is caused as a result of unwanted pregnancies. The remedy that these people find is the remedy of the back-street abortionist with its consequences of death, injury and harm to the mother and to the infant as a result. The point we wish to make is that when one talks about abortion it is not good enough merely to look at the moral aspects and to rely on emotional arguments. One has to look at the consequences for the child, the unwanted child, at the consequences for the other children in the family and for the community. When one looks at those consequences one realizes that there is a very good case to be made out for abortion under the circumstances set out by the hon. member for Houghton. I believe the hon. the Minister has indicated that he believes he and the Government will not always hold the present attitudes. We must accept that society will change its attitude. However, it is up to the Government to take the lead in bringing about changes at this early stage, while changes in its attitudes and policies will be effective and will make a contribution to the solving of this very big problem.

I would just like to add one or two figures which might be interesting. In the Ciskei town of Mdantsane there are 24 418 malnourished children; 68% of all children under five years of age. In the Ciskei 25 children under the age of five die each day through malnutrition. Dr. Sam Pherson of Pretoria University has stated that on the average three children die every hour in South Africa; three children every hour as a result of malnutrition. That means 75 a day. 24 000 African children and 3 500 Coloured children die each year as a result of malnutrition. Up to three out of every four Black children suffer from stunted growth. The problem is increasing rather than diminishing.

There is a wealth of facts that can be mentioned to justify the need for the Government to give a far higher priority to family planning than they are giving at the moment. In Rhodesia a very interesting report appeared recently. In the report it is stated that for an estimated 180 000 people added to the population every year, the resources of the country have to provide the following: 36 primary schools, 4 500 primary school teachers, 540 hospital beds, 18 doctors, 60 000 jobs and 180 000 extra acres of land under cultivation. If one looks at those figures, and if one transposes those figures to the South African situation, it will be seen that South Africa cannot possibly maintain existing standards of living for its people, nor can it increase standards of living, unless we can control our population effectively.

I want to appeal to the Minister that he should to a larger extent be prepared to use voluntary organizations operating in this field and to subsidize these voluntary organizations to a greater extent. I am thinking in particular of the Family Planning Association and organizations which concentrate on voluntary sterilization. The Government must be prepared to help these organizations financially, because of the real advantages involved. Some of the advantages are that they are not suspect, that they are not seen as a tool of the Government attempting to carry out Government policy, and when these organizations are subsidized, the money paid to them is complemented by the expertise of the people in these organizations, expertise which they give freely for the sake of the cause.

In my opinion the hon. the Minister has to do the following things. Firstly, he must give a much higher priority to family planning than he is doing at the moment. Secondly, he must reconsider his attitude to abortions. Thirdly, he must be prepared to subsidize and to encourage voluntary organizations in the field of family planning and sterilization. He should give them the funds and the means to do their work, because by doing so he will gain far more than the mere money invested.

Mr. Chairman, in the Bible I read the following words—

It is charity that I want to talk about today. I want to speak very personally. In this personal matter I want to address myself to the hon. the Minister and his officials. When I refer to them I also want to pay sincere tribute to the Department of Health and to the staff of our hospitals in South Africa. I want to quote an example, a very personal one. However, I felt that I should do so, because this was not exclusively a personal or an isolated case. It is something which I believe to be true throughout our country. For three years my mother lay in the Ventersdorp Hospital suffering from a brain haemorrhage. She was unable to speak or understand anything. The love, consideration and attention which those nurses and doctors gave my mother are to the credit of our nation. I want to speak here today with the deepest sincerity and the greatest appreciation of the treatment which the nurses, doctors and other hospital staff give our people in the hospitals. I want to place this on record here. I am speaking on behalf of my constituency, on behalf of those voters of mine who have members of their family and friends in the hospitals in my constituency. I can say to the hon. the Minister and the provincial authorities today that it is only in terms of the highest praise and with the deepest gratitude that one can refer to the treatment, dedication and care that our ill people receive in hospitals. I am grateful to have the opportunity to express my gratitude for this in this House, and although I do so here in regard to my mother, I also do so on behalf of many of my voters who would have said the same if they had had the opportunity that I have. It is with the deepest gratitude that I pay the highest tribute to the hospital staff of the Ventersdorp Hospital, to the provincial authorities and to our national health authorities for that treatment.

In a few months’ time, one of the most modern hospitals in the Southern Hemisphere is to be opened at Carletonville. That hospital has a long history. I have visited the hospital. The member of the provincial council who was very much involved with this hospital, passed away some years ago. His successor was another provincial councillor. The hospital is now nearing completion. I visited the hospital and also paid a call on the woman who is making the 2 000 curtains and lace curtains for the hospital. I went to look at all the hospital facilities, and the way in which it was planned and built, and in this regard I want to pay tribute to the Department of Health on its fine, outstanding achievement. I am informed that the hospital is to be opened in November. This will be one of the highlights in my constituency this year. It was a great occasion for us when the Minister of Defence paid a call on the constituency. Carletonville is exceptionally well-endowed. We have sinkholes and we have hills. We are acquainted with the depths and the heights. I want to pay the highest tribute to the Department of Health today—and I really mean it—for what they are doing with great love and tender care, as I have said. I also pay tribute to something which will become a reality one of these days, viz. one of the finest and most modern hospitals in the world.

Mr. Chairman, there is hardly a person in the House or anywhere else in the world who will disagree with the hon. member for Carletonville when he tells us of the unremitting dedication and devotion with which the medical profession, which includes medical practitioners and the nursing staff of hospitals, perform their duties towards the sick. It is after all a very high calling. We are indeed very proud of those dedicated people who work in these hospitals for days and hours on end with very little thought for themselves.

In the same breath I now wish to talk about epilepsy, to which it is estimated that 5% of the total population is subject. Were it not for the excellent work done by the Department of Health, the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions and the voluntary organization known as the S.A. National Epilepsy League, referred to as Sanel, little or nothing of this dread affliction would be known by the public at large. After all, very few people know what epilepsy is. They have vague notions about it. What is it? We are told it is a disorder brought about when a group of brain cells discharges too much electrical energy. What they do not know, is that epilepsy is not contagious, nor is it infectious. It is not a physical disease and it does not cause insanity or mental retardation. Neither is epilepsy feeblemindedness.

Epilepsy can be caused by birth defects, head injuries, high fevers, blood clots, oxygen deficiency and toxic states such as those caused by alcoholism. Medical treatment for epilepsy is a long-term treatment with anticonvulsants being used to obtain seizure control. A person who suffers from epilepsy has certain social problems. Firstly, there is the negative public attitude towards epilepsy. Ignorance and superstition have invested the term “epilepsy” with an entirely unwarranted and fearful connotation. Hence, the person with epilepsy is stigmatized. He finds himself in a world of prejudice and rejection. Secondly, at school the child who suffers from epilepsy finds himself subjected to discrimination, prejudice and rejection by fellow-pupils and even by teachers. Thirdly, employers react with fear, anxiety and discrimination against the person with epilepsy. This results in this person becoming very frustrated in his attempts to secure employment. Thus an intelligent young person may remain at home stagnating, whereas employment would not only enable him to be financially independent, but in addition would give him a sense of his own self-worth and dignity.

One thing we must remember is that epilepsy can arise at any time and can afflict any one of us as a result of a blow on the head or a car accident. I am told that even flashing discotheque lights and a flickering TV could cause epilepsy. There is simply no reason for it at all. Thus we are all potential epileptics.

I now wish to break a lance for Sanel, a registered welfare organization which exists to promote the interests of epileptics of all races in every possible way. With adequate medical and social care most epileptics can fend for themselves. They are afflicted more by the attitude of society towards them than by the condition itself. Sanel, together with the medical practitioner, helps epileptics to achieve effective seizure control and educate them and their families in the importance of continuing medication. The ultimate aim is for every epileptic to be fully accepted in society and thus to function at his most effective level.

I have been informed by the Natal branch of Sanel that in its short life it has done yeoman service in the face of terrific difficulties. The incidence of epilepsy amongst the Bantu, for example, is more frequent because they are more exposed to head injuries than any other group. In this regard one can think of the faction fights in the rural areas, their fights in the urban areas and their type of employment, for example, in the building trade, mining, etc. Another important aspect in this regard is their travelling in open transport. The organization has to face cultural and traditional beliefs of the Bantu as well. The Bantu have deep-rooted beliefs in the witch doctor, a belief which creates a serious problem even today. One who understands the Bantu people will know what I mean when I talk about the influence of the witch doctor. This organization has problems in relation to the lack of facilities for medical treatment in the rural areas where clinics and hospitals are few and far between. I am told that district surgeons have the medication but are not empowered to administer that medication free of charge. In other words, the Bantu in the rural area has to pay for his medication. When medication is available, there is very often an insufficiency of supplies.

The lack of day hospitals which could provide facilities for periodic assessment and review of the epileptic condition and treatment, is also a major factor. Transport facilities in the rural areas are generally lacking and shank’s pony has to be resorted to. In the urban areas—I am particularly referring to Natal—clinics and facilities are extremely limited. We got an indication of this when we toured Natal and Zululand last year. When one considers the vast population this is really a crime against society. Durban is singularly unfortunate in its lack of Bantu hospitals. I am informed that the Wentworth Hospital is the only hospital in Natal which provides specialized treatment for epileptics of all races. It has the equipment, it can do the necessary brain scans, but it has to serve everybody in this regard. I would therefore urge upon the hon. the Minister to give urgent consideration to and to implement the following medical services, as far as funds will permit him to do so. In the first place, there needs to be an extensive increase in the number of clinics in both rural and urban areas to bring them in line with the population requirements. I know that other departments have their own self-governing departments and in this regard the Department of Health is at a disadvantage, but I would implore him to apply for these facilities. Another matter that can be attended to is the establishment of day hospitals throughout the Republic on the same lines as we find in the Western Province and overseas. Furthermore, we can tighten up on our legislation in regard to the compulsory use of safety belts and for the protection of persons riding in the back of open trucks. Consideration can be given to the imposition of severe fines on individuals inflicting head injuries. Furthermore, attention must also be given to the strict enforcement of existing legislation in regard to the safety measures in the mines, the building industry, etc. I would also urge that the preventive aspect of medicine should receive equal attention with the curative aspect in order to prevent the enormous cost to the country of dealing with preventable health problems such as kwashiorkor, tuberculosis, etc.

Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon. member for Umlazi on his speech. I had not expected such a hardened old policeman to be able to plead so important a case in the way he did, and I want to congratulate him on it.

I want to discuss the dental policy of the Government and I also want to congratulate the hon. the Minister and his department …

I cannot hear what you are saying.

I should like that little man sitting at the back over there …

Order! The hon. member may not refer to the hon. member as “that little man”.

I should like to point out to the hon. member that I am dealing with a serious matter and I want to ask him to use what little he has between his ears and close his mouth for a change. By accepting the national dental health policy in September 1975, the Government took a positive step and established a blueprint in accordance with which public dental services can be developed in a meaningful and effective way in the future. Over the past three years the Department of Health has played a leading role in promoting dental health care and giving it full and equal status with the general health care services for the population. However, such a major backlog has developed over the years that a tremendous task still lies ahead if South Africa’s public dental services are to be brought up to world standards. The progress made over the past three years is important. Firstly, a division of dental services was established, headed by a dentist. The number of full-time dentists in the service of the department has increased from nine to 65. This is very important. Furthermore, school dental services for Coloureds in the Western Cape and for Indians in Durban were introduced. Then, too, part-time dentists were appointed in rural areas, and services were introduced in homelands where no services had previously existed. A start was made with dental health education, although still on a very small scale. Moreover, a start was made with the training of Black dental therapists at Ga-Rankuwa, and 12 will be receiving their diplomas shortly.

Public dental services are available to 85% of the population. These are interesting statistics. Only 15% of practising dentists are in the full-time service of health authorities. In other words, 85% of the population needs public health services, but only 15% of the available dentists are in the service of the department. The department’s budget for dental health services for 1977-’78 amounts to R1,3 million. This is less than 1% of this department’s total budget. If one looks at the total amount of R1,3 million, it looks like a substantial sum being spent on dental services, but it is less than 1% of the total budget of this department. It is estimated that the total annual expenditure by all health authorities on dental services, comprises only 0,75% of the total expenditure, but overseas it varies between 3% and 20%. We therefore have a backlog as far as public dental services are concerned. At the moment the authorities spend on average about 18 cents per annum per patient, viz. on people who are dependent on public health services. It is estimated that an average of R17 per person per annum is spent by paying patients for dental health services. It costs the average man in South Africa R17 per annum per person to look after himself and his family.

Public dental services are at present limited almost entirely to emergency services. The demand for this service is so great that all the available funds, facilities and manpower have to be devoted to this. In order to bring dental services within reach of the entire population and to provide more comprehensive services, the authorities will have to make more ample provision. For example, there are 600 000 Coloured school-children in the Western Cape and 41 full-time dentists are needed to provide a service to these children. At present there are eight full-time dentists available for 600 000 Coloured children in the Western Cape. This gives an idea of the acute shortage of dentists.

Apart from the fact that far more funds are required, public dental services can function far more effectively if services provided by different health authorities are consolidated into one service run by one central authority. My plea today is that we provide a central dental service in South Africa; it will be found that this will function far more effectively if one sees what has been done by the department over the past three years to promote dental services in South Africa. Far more attention must be devoted to dental health education and preventive dentistry. The Department of Health ought to have a department which is concerned, solely and specifically, with dental health education and preventive dentistry. Moreover, this was an important recommendation of the De Villiers Commission of 1967, but one which has not yet been carried out.

Serious consideration will have to be given to dental training so as to meet the needs of the population. All indications are that the three years of training of dental therapists, enabling them to do 90% of the work done by dentists in public services, is the answer. These dental therapists can therefore play a tremendous role in the profession. At present, training of Bantu therapists for the homelands is carried out at Ga-Rankuwa. Dental therapists can be used to good effect in public services elsewhere in the Republic. South Africa can be a world leader in this field, and I am convinced that if we were to continue with what we have been doing over the past few years, dental services in South Africa will improve to such an extent that we shall be able to compare with the rest of the world as regards services to the people.

Mr. Chairman, at the outset I want to react to the hon. member for Krugersdorp. The hon. member for Krugersdorp was concerned about the relationship between the doctor and the patient. It is a problem which has been cropping up more frequently of late and it is being said that the relationship between the doctor and the patient is no longer what it was. Then, too, he advanced certain reasons for the deterioration of that relationship and mentioned the method of determining fees and the way in which the Press sometimes presents reports so that they lead to misunderstandings between the profession as such on the one hand and the public on the other. The hon. members for Pietersburg and Fauresmith also raised this matter. I take it therefore that this is a matter which is preying heavily on the minds of our medical colleagues in particular.

The hon. member also referred to medical schemes. In this regard I should like to tell him that to a certain extent I agree with him that we have a problem here. As I said at the beginning, not only do we have a dilemma with the determining of fees, with the remuneration commission, etc., but the profession itself has some kind of suspicion, a feeling that people outside the profession are the ones who actually determine what the fees should be, and that they are not, in the first place, being consulted to a sufficient extent and, in the second place, that their autonomy is from time to time being jeopardized. I admit that the Medical Schemes Act, which was passed almost ten years ago, is a heritage of the past. It is also a very contentious issue. The contracting in and contracting out of medical practitioners I also regard as an aspect which we must try to resolve in the years which lie ahead. If one receives such a heritage, one must make the best of it. Two years ago we did a bit of patching up. We thought that we would to a large extent solve the problem, but once again it has simply become apparent that the attempt to create harmony between the purveyors of medicine and those to whom it is purveyed was not sufficiently successful. I must say that I have the greatest appreciation for the work which the Remuneration Commission is doing. At present they are once again performing their task as directed by the Government, and by August we shall know what their recommendations are. This is in accordance with the Act; I can do nothing about it. Within three months after that I have to announce the new tariffs. But as I have already said, I have spoken to the medical leaders. They also have a sense of responsibility and will display a great measure of self-control. I believe that I shall definitely be able to rely on them during this time. In addition, I am going to have further talks with them.

But I want to agree with what hon. members said here. I am referring in particular to the hon. member for Fauresmith. The hon. member for Krugersdorp did not spell it out as specifically. I think that we shall have to begin thinking of calling in the Medical and Dental Council. This is in fact a professional, authoritative body. This body has, over the years, gained a large measure of appreciation on the part of the profession as a result of its actions. It also has the necessary authority and status. A final decision has not yet been taken on the matter, but that body, which also has layment members but which consists primarily of professional people, people of outstanding calibre, has shown itself willing to allow itself to be involved to a certain extent in determining the value of medical services. In the past it was able to call a medical practitioner who was charging exorbitant fees to order. It was even able to discharge him, so to speak, and it frequently did so.

I believe, however that we should, as usual, get our professional association, the Medical Association, to draw up a unit value statement for us so that we will know the relative value of the various treatments. After that the professional authoritative body can ultimately determine the tariffs. I should not like to anticipate this matter. As I have said, I am going to hold further talks with these people to establish to what extent they are able to help and assist us in solving this problem. They may not in any case become a remuneration commission because that would be wrong.

Nevertheless I believe that we could expand the authority of this body so that they could possibly provide us with a solution in this regard. I am saying this in connection with the matters raised by the hon. member for Krugersdorp. I do not have very much more to say about what the hon. member said here. It was pointed out that the Press was responsible for what was said by a medical practitioner, a so-called “leading authority of the State”, led to misunderstandings arising. It created the impression that a leading member of the Public Service had made an irresponsible statement about the public and about the claims which were made from time to time. I can tell the hon. member that it was a person who was attached to a local authority. He said afterwards that he had been incorrectly quoted—as politicians also do from time to time.

I come now to the hon. member for Maraisburg. He made a very interesting plea for more money for cancer research. I agree with the hon. member. The Medical Research Council, the South African Institute for Medical Research as well as the South African Cancer Association are doing exceptionally important work in this regard. These institutions are constantly doing applied research. I could mention many interesting things to the hon. member. It was recently made public how we in South Africa had developed a method of inoculating a hepatitis virus—that is a liver virus—for a certain form of virus disease of the liver.

This is actually a cancer virus. From that a cell line has been cultivated which can be made available even to overseas countries. This can contribute greatly, perhaps, not only to the prevention but also to the treatment of particular cases of liver cancer. I could also mention the tremendous development in regard to radio isotopes, the use of neutron therapy and the open-sector cyclotron which we intend constructing in the Cape. I think that, in all respects, the radio-therapy and the chemo-therapy which he mentioned here is important. I have an exceptionally high appreciation for Prof. Falkson of Pretoria, for what he is doing in regard to the chemical treatment of certain forms of cancer. These are actually the blood-cancer diseases. In that respect I think we are making very good progress, and I think the hon. member may be assured that what he said here today will receive a great deal of attention from us, for I think he stated it in a very sympathetic and dedicated manner, which is something one ought to appreciate. We do not always have the time for this kind of thing, but we should sometimes make time for it.

†The hon. member for Pinetown spoke again about the Abortion and Sterilization Act. I have already replied to that, and that is why I am going to include the hon. member for Bryanston in the reply which I am going to give now and which will be very brief. Having given my reply I am not going to enter into any more arguments about this. I have listened to what the hon. member said. I shall make a note of it because there are perhaps some matters which I should take cognizance of. The hon. member for Pinetown also said that he was not satisfied that we could not let him have the statistics on illegal abortions. It is sometimes actually very difficult for the medical professions to determine what constitutes an illegal abortion. The Department carefully scrutinizes, according to the statistics which they have available, all the cases falling under section 3(b).

The Psychiatric Association is willing to help us and to see whether, by monitoring, we cannot determine whether there is a tendency which is abnormal, a tendency which shows a sort of mental pathology as far as the approach to abortions is concerned. However, I think we will eventually be able to find suitable guidelines as far as this is concerned. But I repeat that at this moment I am not going to consider changes to the Act.

*The hon. member for Pietersburg spoke about health care in general and covered a wide field. He also mentioned the aspects I mentioned a moment ago, and I have already replied in that respect. I also replied in regard to medical schemes, on abuses and on doctor/patient relations. Therefore I do not want to go into his speech any further, except to say that, as usual, he made an excellent contribution and that he raised and elucidated matters here which are of importance to us.

†The hon. member for Jeppe, as usual, talked about Santa and about tuberculosis. I think he is very dedicated in regard to this. In fact, I say this from year to year because I do not want him to lose his initiative and energy so as always to be involved as far as Santa and the fight against tuberculosis is concerned. It is so that with BCE vaccination we only reach about 40% of new-born babies at this moment, but we have set a target for ourselves and we are trying to reach at least 80% of these babies within five years. We are therefore progressing as far as that is concerned.

We are, of course, very appreciative of the co-operation we receive from Santa. I may mention that we have at the moment 4 000 tuberculosis patients in institutions run by Santa. The department is spending about R3 million on these patients. The hon. member for Jeppe referred to the case-finding scheme. This is very important. However, because we do not have the funds at the moment, I want to ask him to exercise a little patience as far as this is concerned. In addition to that I can assure him that great headway is made in the treatment of tuberculosis cases by way of the new Pearson treatment, a fast way of treatment, in which the patient is so to speak bombarded into specific drugs against tuberculosis. Patients who are not confined to hospital receive this sort of treatment over a period of 100 to 130 days. I believe that is one of the reasons why the notification of tuberculosis has dropped by about 10 000 over a period of only one year. I therefore believe that we are definitely making headway in this respect.

*The hon. member for Hercules put forward quite a number of interesting suggestions today. He covered a wide field and referred, inter alia, to guidance. The hon. member discussed family planning again. He referred to undesirable pregnancies, to education, to a family planning association, etc. It is true that these people are at present receiving a little less in the way of a subsidy. This is the case because certain of their former tasks have been transferred to the department. These are tasks which can be performed by the department in a more effective way. However, they still have a function to perform. The hon. member also referred to improved services by clinics. This will also form part of general health care. I want to point out to the hon. member that 1974 was Family Planning Year. Perhaps we could celebrate 1980 as another. 1974 was actually celebrated as family planning year all over the world. It led to a large increase in the numbers of those who accept family planning.

†I have already replied to the hon. member for Bryanston. One of the goals he requested me to set myself was to spend more money on and give more attention to family planning. For the financial year 1976-’77 R6,l million was allotted to my department. In order to provide for the planning of the projects which are under way, we have provided for R13,2 to be spent over the next five years. I believe that even that amount might escalate because of the inflationary tendency.

*The hon. member for Carletonville did a splendid thing today. We are not always concerned with politics here, although it does sometimes rear its head in the field of medicine. The hon. member paid tribute to the department and to the hospital services which are being provided. Such personal testimony from someone is something we should always take notice of. It affects us because of the nature of our profession. The appreciative words which the hon. member expressed will definitely not fall on deaf ears. They were highly appreciated by everyone who listened to him today. I took cognizance of them, and I shall definitely convey them to those people to whom they were actually addressed.

†The hon. member for Umlazi spoke about epileptics. I must state that I share his sympathies with regard to epileptics. I want to thank the hon. member for raising this. Fortunately it has lately become possible to control the various epileptic seizures by applying new forms of chemo-therapy. It is successful to such an extent that patients treated can afterwards return to the community. The stigma attached to them is no longer the same as in the past. Former epileptic patients are even today employed in the Government service. It is clear that it is possible to rehabilitate them and to alleviate the suffering so many of them have been subjected to in the past. That can be achieved to a large extent by adopting the correct approach to these patients.

It is a problem as far as clinics and so on are concerned, but I must specifically mention that we have great appreciation for the work that Sanel does in this respect. The facilities for the treatment of patients have definitely improved greatly. We have the electro-encephalograph method of diagnosis and, as I have said, new forms of chemo-therapy. As far as that is concerned the hon. member need not worry, because as we have a comprehensive approach to community health, we will definitely allot a place to the epileptic patient, the place he is entitled to. An epileptic patient is sometimes in danger especially when they have to do work while in close proximity to fire or at great heights. This has to be taken into account and I share the hon. member’s view that there are problems in this regard. It is something that we in our overall approach must attend to whenever we certify these people as fit for the labour market.

There is a lack of Bantu hospitals at the moment, but the problem in this regard has been alleviated lately.

*The hon. member for Rustenburg spoke about dental health services. Two years ago we announced a dental health policy. It is a slow process. It was found that we do not have enough dentists in South Africa to leave it to private enterprise, and consequently the State began to take over dental practices, and recently we even appointed private practitioners to enable us to render services to the Coloureds and Indians in Cape Town and Durban. We are still attempting to provide a service for Bantu schoolchildren, but up to now we have not been entirely successful in this respect. The take-over of dental services, institutions, associations and even the powers of the provinces is taking a considerable time. However, it will be done, and is already being done. Just as in the case of part-time district surgeons the intention is to employ more and more dentists to make the introduction of services in the rural areas possible, so that better dental services may be provided. We also intend providing more and more dental services in prisons.

I told the hon. member for Berea that I would reply to his request, made earlier in the year, by issuing a statement on the question of methylated spirits. I had this statement drawn up some time ago, and I now want to read it out to this House. Methylated spirits, in the form in which it is sold to the public, is in fact a fuel. As such it is in general demand in the rural areas. It is poor people, for the most part, who buy methylated spirits because they need it for lamps and other appliances. The Department of Health does not exercise direct control over methylated spirits. We are responsible for the labelling. It is methyl alcohol which is the noxious variety, and if there is a sufficient percentage of it present in the methylated spirits, we are able to control it by means of labelling. However, the percentage of methyl alcohol can also be so high that it is certain to be detrimental to human health, and therefore dangerous. There are five kinds of methylated spirits in South Africa, and only one of these formulas contains methyl alcohol. It contains 3,5% of that substance. The other kinds of methylated spirits, of course, contain ethyl alcohol. As hon. members know, ethyl alcohol is more potent than witblits. It contains 95% to 97%. One can run a motor-car on it. As far as this substance is concerned, we are therefore dealing with a very dangerous …

We must manufacture more of this stuff.

Yes. Perhaps we should manufacture a little more of it for motor-cars, but not for people, because people will certainly come to the end of the road if they drink too much-of it. In any case, it is doubtful whether that percentage of methyl alcohol, which occurs in only one of the five formulae, presents a great danger to health. The Department of Customs and Excise approached our department, after they received representations from the Department of Justice, with the request that we should try to ensure that methylated spirits has a very unpleasant taste, or to add something to prevent people from drinking it. First we added mineral naphtha, methyl alcohol and a peridine base. We then added methyl violet, which gives methylated spirits its characteristic colour. Apparently people filter it through a loaf of bread to remove the colour. It is then completely colourless again, it looks attractive and apparently it tastes even better. We then went further and added denatolium benzoate. The Bitrex is extremely bitter. Subsequently we doubled the quantity to two grams per 100 litres. This only helped for a short while. Then the bitterness no longer outweighed the attractions of the methylated spirits. Of course I cannot allow substances to be added to methylated spirits—when all is said and done, it is something which is used throughout the country—which could be a health hazard. The Department of Health cannot do that; it would be disastrous. It would only lead to our having more health problems to solve. The Hazardous Substances Act is of course another matter. In terms of this Act a pharmacist may sell certain substances. In his case as well, he can only sell the methyl alcohol group. One could perhaps affix warnings to the containers, but in the case of the four formulae which do not contain methyl alcohol, we cannot affix labels indicating that it can cause blindness. Hon. members know that wood alcohol might cause blindness. It only pertains to one formula out of five and I do not think it will be feasible and practical to do so. It is possible to have it sold as a hazardous substance. Then, of course, it may only be kept by pharmacists. The major problem which will be experienced here, is that pharmacists will then have to record the particulars in their registers. I do not know whether this will help, for it refers only to that one type. I do not think that classification of this one type will prevent the abuse of methylated spirits. I am quite certain it will not. It is a social evil against which we have to warn, and to which we have to bring about a special resistance.

I came to the conclusion that we did not have an effective way of prohibiting it, until such time as we were able to introduce legislation if we saw that the problem was getting out of hand. In any case, how can one do this? One can eat or smoke too much. The hon. member for Berea asked me whether I did not want to do something about smoking. I can only make a serious appeal—it is my duty to do so—and say that tobacco is in reality a form of poison, in exactly the same way as alcohol is, when it is used to excess. It is unfortunately the case that it is used by a sector of the population which can least afford it and for whose health it is even more hazardous than for those people who are adequately fed, are healthy and who have greater resistance to it.

Earlier this afternoon I said that I would reply to the speech made by the hon. member for Newcastle. He raised a matter which I do not want to exaggerate beyond its actual importance. Yet it would be a good thing if I said a few words for the sake of the record, about the Scientology movement to which the hon. member for Newcastle referred. I do not even want to mention the name. As far as I am concerned, I have nothing to do with those people, provided they leave us in peace. Earlier in the year, on 25 March, I said in reply to a question that was put to me that I would make a statement on this matter. I have issued a statement on the mental health services in South Africa. We, as a department, have recently found ourselves in a difficult position. However, that does not mean that we are at our wit’s end; it simply means that if one is forced into a difficult position, one subsequently becomes defensive—like an animal which is being attacked and defend itself. The defence may perhaps amount to an attack as well. However, I shall leave it at that. The matter has been under discussion for a long time and I do not wish to utter any threats now. That is the last thing I want to do, nor is it an appropriate action on the part of my department.

Earlier this year a World Health Organization report appeared which by implication and in rather plain language stated that in South Africa there were between 8 000 and 9 000 Blacks, who had been taken to camps, against their will and under the cloak of mental illness, camps which were privately managed and controlled, where a profit was being made and where people were being treated under the cloak of mental illness. According to the report they have to do the work of slaves there, in exactly the same way as in the old slave camps, for which they received no remuneration. According to the report they were receiving this kind of treatment because they were political opponents of the Government. This is merely a business transaction between the Government and the State. That, in essence, was the charge. I do not want to go into details.

It is not necessary, and I do not want to read out any long quotations either. The position is, in brief, that every year a report is made available in South Africa on the private services which are provided for non-White mental patients—to a far lesser extent for Whites—because the Government has since 1962 been experiencing ever increasing difficulties as far as accommodation is concerned. The treatment of and the control over these people is the duty of the Department of Health and is subject to the department’s standards and requirements. I do not want to allege that, as a result of that, we have a perfect system, that no misunderstandings will occur, and that no problems will crop up. Such things one has to expect everywhere. The important question in this regard is whether such a system is acceptable. It is acceptable in many parts of the world. Nor do we really have a choice. The only requirement is that we should ensure that the control which we exercise over the treatment of these people is as effective as possible and that it is done in accordance with the principles of modern psychiatry. I make no apology for modern psychiatry, because it is a science which has developed over the years and the treatment received by patients in terms of it, is among the best in the world. The people who admit the patients to the institution which we hire from them, receive a daily fee, and not a subsidy. I am questioned year after year, particularly by the hon. member for Pinelands, about the subsidy which we are allegedly paying these people. However, this is not the case, because we do not receive any subsidy. At the end of the report in the World Health Organization report it was concluded that we are in reality running slave camps—that is the implication—that we are totally exploiting these people and their labour, that they derive no benefit from it and that once a person has been sent there, it is the end of him. I find it strange that this report—I shall not quote it again; it is going to bore this House—bears a remarkable resemblance to certain headlines and reports which appeared in the publication Peace and Freedom, the mouthpiece of the Scientologists. They included inter alia—

I do not want to bore this House any further, but this is the kind of thing one has to deal with every day. We received the specific document and the particulars, and last year I issued an open invitation, and subsequently a written invitation, to the World Health Organization and to the Red Cross to visit South Africa and acquaint themselves thoroughly with what is happening in our hospitals, private institutions and State hospitals and also to acquaint themselves with the standard of treatment and control which is being exercised over the people who are not able to care for themselves.

We also have the benefit of the testimony of a prominent British psychiatrist who visited these places of his own accord and had the following to say about them—

This person was afforded an opportunity of visiting all the institutions and we gave him the right to forward all the data which he collected to the WHO completely unrevised. What more could one do than that? This person is a Prof. T. C. N. Gibbons, a world renowned psychiatrist. Nor was it only Prof. Gibbons whom we had here in our country. I am not even referring to the Red Cross organization, for they were here in December already. They recently returned. They told me that as for the charge that political opponents are being detained in these institutions, it was something which they rejected. They saw no evidence of it. Nor did they see any need to examine our mental institutions any further. They will bring out a report; it will still be published. However, such observations were not only made by the British psychiatrist, but also by a compatriot of a person who was a sounding-board overseas for what is being said in this country against the Department of Health and, by implication, against the Government. The department is the Government, because it is implementing a law of the Government. Consequently whoever criticizes the department, also criticizes the Government. A compatriot of Per Wästberg, the man who made all these allegations against South Africa in Dagens Nyheter, visited these hospitals. His conclusion was—

He went on to quote six cases—he could probably have quoted far more—in which he indicated clearly that this charge in a Danish newspaper against South Africa must have been politically inspired because there was absolutely no factual basis for the main things this person had said. In most cases the writer’s reaction to it was “wrong” or “nonsense”. In conclusion he said—

He said that in Sweden—this is true because I was there myself; I went to have a look—the hospitals for the mentally ill are of the highest standard in the world. The people have money, and their hospitals are very good. He said that the treatment of our patients and also the circumstances under which they found themselves were such that “to call them slave camps and to almost compare them with Hitler’s camps, is indecent, because it is a breach of truth and of the devoted attendants, mostly Blacks and mostly women, who perform an admirable work”. I just wanted to tell hon. members these things so that they know what we are dealing with and what kind of evidence we have. The evidence of the International Red Cross will still be published. I addressed a specific invitation to the World Health Organization, and after a year it is still being considered. Now I ask you!

I do not wish to make these people more important than they are. The Department of Health is not a prosecuting department; it is the task of the police to prosecute people who contravene the law. However, I just want to say to them that they have achieved their objective. They call themselves a religion. They were unable to infiltrate the institutions to prejudice the normal principles of psychiatry by interfering with patients, and therefore they went and, in an indirect way, involved members of the US congress, and members of the Anti-apartheid Committee of the UNO, as well as others, in their campaign to gain publicity in that way. It is a pity that I have to give publicity to them again here today, but it is a dangerous tendency against which action will have to be taken if it continues in this way. I do not wish to utter a threat now. We have the evidence, I have not even quoted all of it. This is evidence of what has been done up to the present time against the department and against these institutions. A few weeks ago I explained what had been done at Weskoppies, where a person gained entrance under false pretences to take photographs of alleged dagga smuggling there. Perhaps it is taking place, as in many other places, but it is a matter for the police. Instead of the police being informed about this in the first place, or of the department being informed so that we could inform the police, the newspapers were called in so that photographs could be taken and it could appear in banner headlines on the front page of a Sunday newspaper as a scandal.

On the basis of my Press statements, these people have been trying for a long time to have an interview with me so that “the misunderstandings can be eliminated”. I had them informed that there were no misunderstandings. If they remain within the law, a law which is in all respects fair to these sick people, and they behave themselves fairly towards the staff, a handful of people who have to do very difficult work day in and day out, I have no quarrel with these people. But then they must not insinuate themselves and obstruct the work my people are doing by trying, gratuitously and through their importunity, to act as a department of health alongside the actual Department of Health so that “their approach to mental health can also be taken cognizance of”. Everyone can make a good contribution if he wishes, if he does not have any other motives. He can give information, or work through means of the existing independent associations to help our mentally ill people. We take cognizance of anything which happens in our institutions which is not as it should be. In the same way as we issued invitations abroad, I am also going to invite the local Press to visit these institutions, which are open institutions in any case, so that they can come and see what is happening in a co-ordinated way, and also give their verdict on the people who are doing the work and the circumstances which are prevailing there. At the same time they can take cognizance of the charges which are being levelled. Through these charges an entire country, and not only its Government, is being put into a pillory which does not exist. From time to time I have been asked what they should do. They are so eager to help. A few years ago this movement was investigated by a commission of this Parliament as a result of matters which the members of the public disclosed. There it was set out clearly to us what they were doing and what their approach was. As an hon. member opposite correctly remarked, criminal proceedings have in the meantime been instituted against people whose connections with this movement could very clearly be proved. Now they are coming to me and asking for interviews. My approach is that, as long as they display this attitude, what it amounts to for me is that one might as well say to Maputo on the Rhodesian border: “You can send in Frelimo terrorists so that we can discuss matters with one another here.” As far as I am concerned, this is not desirable, at least not before they change their attitude.

I do not know what they should do now, but I want to make it very clear to them that the department and the Government are at any time prepared to negotiate with honourable people. However, when a body informs me in a letter—I have it in black and white—“time alone will tell whether religion or psychiatry was the most effective in restoring to man a new hope, a new dignity and respect for himself and others”, surely it indicates most clearly that they advocate an alternative treatment for people for whom we have established a department with its cadre of scientists who take 12 years to be trained. Many of their people, however, have not been trained. I do not know whether there are any of them who have in fact been trained. Surely it is clear that they are jeopardizing the work of the department, and prejudicing it. Under the present circumstances I cannot therefore conduct a correspondence with these people. I am simply going to ignore them. I do not know what measures they wish to take. They always come to light with a little veiled threat.

Let me just say that the Government and the department which takes the decisions, does not allow itself to be threatened. As a result of their actions, these people are costing my department a great deal. They have to be constantly on the alert to see whether these people are not trying to gain entrance to places under false pretences. There is a constant, unnecessary waste of time. The department does not feel happy about this matter. These people are interfering with the treatment of patients. If they carry on in this way, I am going to threat them as offenders. For the rest, it is for the police to say whether there are contraventions. It is not for me to say. I have given the Nigel Tasker case to the Police for investigation. While they are in the process of investigating it, a demonstration with placards was held one morning at the Civitas building by means of which the department and everything that it has done was once again made suspect.

Psychiatric patients and psychiatric institutions are a sensitive matter. We have in the course of two or three years tried to improve our legislation as well as it was possible to do. There are still deficiencies; it is possible to point to errors, but as they present themselves, we shall rectify them. However, these people cannot take care of themselves. Nor can the people who work day and night, be attacked in this way and terrorized from day to day. We cannot publish all kinds of particulars concerning patients either. That is also a sensitive matter. We work with patients on a confidential basis. After all, we have their families to deal with. One cannot disclose everything; surely to do that would be absurd.

I should like to make an appeal to responsible people in this Parliament and to the general public to forget about the sensational aspect of this matter. They must keep that in the background; they must accord to that the place it deserves, i.e. they must take no notice of it, yet they must be alert and prevent people who are trying under false pretences to get into these institutions from succeeding in their purpose. If an honest person wishes to make a contribution, the institutions are open to him. We shall always try to help such a person.

I have now mentioned a few points with which I have replied to these people. The matter has now been disposed of. I have said what I had to say in this regard because I consider it to be important. I believe that I have also replied, as well as I was able, to the speeches of the hon. members who participated in the debate.

Votes agreed to.

Vote No. 22 and S.W.A. Vote No. 14.— “Planning and the Environment”, and Vote No. 23.—“Statistics”:

Mr. Chairman, right at the outset I wish to apologize for the absence of the chairman of our planning group due to unforeseen circumstances. I shall try to take his place, but I can assure you, Sir, that I am far from being able to do so. He is known for his sparkling speeches which always interest all of us. Nevertheless I shall try.

†Mr. Chairman, besides health, the hon. the Minister is also responsible for planning and the environment and for statistics, a responsibility shared by his Deputy Minister. The departments have very important functions to perform, functions which I believe are not sufficiently recognized by the Government. They must set the guidelines along which South Africa must develop in the future on a rational and balanced basis, so that we can make the best use of our wonderful resources of land, minerals and people, and they must promote our economic and social welfare and an increased standard of living for all South Africans. The hon. the Minister, his Deputy and the department do not enjoy the necessary standing and position of importance in the eyes of the Government that their great task and responsibility should merit. I believe that their task is of such enormous importance that the responsibility for this particular Vote should be allocated to a more senior Minister who can really promote the objectives of this particular department to the best of his ability. To do the task well, accurate statistics should be available on which to base decisions. The requirements for modern developments are such that they must be fresh and recent, which is not always the case with statistics which are available. It is also important that all races should be included in the statistics which are made available. These should include all the people within the confines of our system. At the moment there is no reliable record of unemployment, particularly of the Black people in South Africa, and the Black people in our total economic system.

Another important function is the promotion and co-ordination of scientific research in an orderly way, without unnecessary overlapping and duplication. The CSIR are doing excellent work, but there is not enough co-ordination between institutes of research, and therefore one has the impression that there is much too much fragmentation of the various research institutes, and I have come across cases of duplication. Based on the facts obtained from available statistics and the research which has been done in South Africa, development projections on an annual, a five-year and even a 10-year period should be made for the general development so that optimal solutions can be indicated in a master plan for the whole of South Africa. They should take factors such as the population growth rate, educational requirements, housing, job opportunities, economic growth and many other factors into account, which I do not believe is being done to a sufficiently positive extent at the moment.

The department has the responsibility of planning optimal land use, which should include the homelands, because we are so interdependent as far as water, transport, residential areas and many other matters are concerned. The Government is inclined to write off the homelands as foreign enclaves which we have to get off our backs as soon as possible. I do not think that the homelands are sufficiently included in our general planning for the future development of South Africa. For planning purposes South Africa should be one great unit, as envisaged by the leader of the UP, Sir De Villiers Graaff, in his concept of Capricorn Africa.

I believe that we should think in terms of electricity grids that cross borders, rail and road links, a common economic market and other bonds that could bring these various countries together as a bastion against communism, instead of apartheid that drives us asunder at the present moment. The demarcation of areas for residential, industrial and farming areas is important, as well as the demarcation of areas to be set aside and reserved for recreation, nature reserves and national parks. However, at the same time I do not know of a single instance in which the Department of Planning specifically promoted, on its own initiative, a nature reserve or a national park.

I know of instances in which the department has succumbed to public pressure. Here I can mention the areas of Magaliesberg, the Langebaan lagoon, and maybe even Table Mountain. There is an enormous task to be performed in this particular field. However, nowhere have I seen the department take the initiative to promote areas of this nature. Instead the hon. the Minister seems to be preoccupied with guide-plans motivated by group areas and associated with contentious political difficulties. Furthermore, he is motivated by the political philosophy of apartheid instead of having a more positive approach to do this for economic and other reasons. [Interjections.]

In my own constituency I have the problem created by an Indian residential area known as Actonville. For seven years, and even before my time, have we endeavoured to gain additional residential land for the people of Actonville. The Coloureds were removed. There was urban renewal in Actonville, and because of the overcrowding of that area a new slum is developing there. It would appear that it is a result of the frustration of the Department of Planning which causes the phenomenon that no additional areas can be allocated to Actonville.

On one side Actonville is restricted in its horizontal development by undermined areas. To the north it is restricted by the railway station, and towards the east by industrial areas. The only direction into which it can develop is towards the south and towards the neighbouring municipal area. However, once again, as a result of the philosophy of the Government, all kinds of restrictions are imposed on that type of development. Overcrowding of Actonville is something which is becoming absolutely appalling. It cannot bear its own population growth. I believe that the Indian community in that particular area are prepared to build their own homes. It is not a question of having to finance home-building schemes. All that is required is an area where those people can live and where they can develop their own township.

Residential plots should be made available, but, once again, the Department of Planning seems to be unable to take up the challenge. This is not the only area in which this is the case. We have the ridiculously uneconomic situation in which the Indians of Page View have to move out into an area where there are no houses available, the area of Lenasia. One can only think of the frustrations associated with it, and the economic hardships those people have to suffer. I believe this is completely negative. I believe the Department of Planning should be associated with development, with moving into the future, with solving problems of development, instead of placing unnecessary ideological restrictions on development in South Africa.

There are enormous challenges to be faced, challenges of communism breathing down our necks, challenges of poverty, of people who are unemployed. However, here we sit dealing in pettiness and in negative attitudes instead of promoting the objectives which we should be striving to promote. The department’s responsibility for planning viable economic growth points and for promoting decentralization I can agree with. However, once again this policy is pervaded with a negative ideological and political approach. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, since I came to Parliament we have listened every year to the hon. member for Hillbrow as the chief spokesman of the UP on planning and statistics. It is a pity that the hon. member for Hillbrow is not present today so that we can take our leave of him. Although we did not always agree with the hon. member for Hillbrow, we always listened appreciatively to what he had to say. We were particularly appreciative of the skilful way in which he stated his case. The hon. member’s fluency in English and Afrikaans also compelled admiration. In the time that he was here the hon. member earned the title of Madam Rose with the predictions he made over the years. It is a pity that the hon. member is not here this evening to tell us whether he caught a glimpse of the future of the party to which he belongs and came to the conclusion that because the UP has a somewhat dark future, a safer future awaited him in the academic world.

As I have mentioned, we appreciated the hon. member for Hillbrow. It so happens that the hon. member for Benoni, who I believe succeeded the hon. member for Hillbrow as chief spokesman of the UP on planning and statistics, comes from the same part of the world as I do. With reference to the speech he made this evening, all I want to say to him is that I had not thought that the Northern Cape could produce such a “bitterbek”. [Interjections.] I leave the hon. member for Benoni at that.

This evening I should like to exchange a few ideas about my part of the world, which is in the Northern Cape.

That is something unusual!

It is a part which I believe has a great future, a part of South Africa where our policy of territorial separation is to be implemented in the finest and most outstanding way in South Africa. In 1973 we made a plea for the establishment of a guide-plan for region 18. I want to put it very clearly that this was not a request that a guide-plan be compiled for Sishen, as indicated in the annual report of the department. Sishen is perhaps the most well-known mining development scheme in the Northern Cape due to the establishment of the Sishen-Saldanha railway line and the ore export scheme.

The mining development and the development there only forms part of the total mining activities in this region. According to the national physical development plan, only the PWV region, regions 23, 25 and 30, yield a greater percentage of the gross value of sales of mining products than this region. Only 14 of the 38 regions have made a higher contribution to the gross geographic product of South Africa. These figures are very much out of date, because since the figures used for the national physical development plan were obtained, there has been a tremendous increase in the mining activities in this region. Today we find in this region South Africa’s richest iron ore, manganese, asbestos and lime stone deposits. The Finch diamond mine has been described as the richest diamond mine in South Africa. These minerals are being exploited on a large scale today. Sir, I could carry on indefinitely providing you and the House with data relating to the mineral potential and the development possibilities of this region.

Unfortunately, the guide plan committee appointed in 1973 never functioned, and in the meantime, development took place in this region at a tremendous rate. This development attracted a great many Whites from throughout South Africa to employment opportunities in the region, but the development created employment opportunities for thousands of Black people in particular. Where wild grassland and camel-thorn trees had stood as recently as 1973, a new town, Kathu, comprising about a thousand houses with schools, hostels and a business centre, shot up. Not far from this, Shisheng, a complex for Black labourers from Iscor, was constructed. This is a complex which provides housing for about 4 000 workers. The municipalities of Kuruman, Daniëlskuil and adjacent areas cannot keep up with the demand for residential plots. Over the past few years Postmasburg, Olifantshoek and Debeng have doubled in size. Black workers are being accommodated at mines on a large scale, and there are growing demands for these workers to be accommodated at these mines on a family basis.

Business suspended at 18h30 and resumed at 20h00.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Chairman, I also want to say on this occasion that we are grateful that the hon. the Minister of Planning and the Environment announced last year that a guide-plan committee had been appointed to draw up a plan for region 18. However, I was somewhat disappointed when I heard from the hon. the Minister recently that the region is now to be planned in two separate sections, namely the Hotazel-Sishen-Postmasburg region, which is the iron ore and manganese producing region, and then the Kuruman-Daniëlskuil region which yields asbestos and limestone.

I have already pointed out that this region has tremendous mining potential. Because the whole of region 18 borders on Bophuthatswana, I feel that this region should be planned as a unit. 90% of the Black labourers in the manganese area at Hotazel are Tswanas. 95% of the Black labourers working in the vicinity of Sishen are also Tswanas. The greater percentage of the Black labourers in the asbestos and limestone mines are Tswanas. At present, the vast majority of the Black workers are accommodated in hostels at the mines. As I have already said, the demands that Black workers be accommodated at mines on a family basis are growing. It is the ideal that the Black workers should be accommodated together with their families. This region is very well suited to Black workers being accommodated in the homeland together with their families, and being conveyed to the mines daily to work there.

I have already said that I should like this region to be planned as a unit. I want to ask this evening that the planning of the infrastructure of this region be such that the Black worker can commute from his homeland to the mines to work there. All these mines are situated near to the homeland. I also want to ask the hon. the Minister this evening to see to it that if these mines establish their Black workers in the homeland, they will be given the same benefits as those which apply to border industries. I also want to ask that negotiations be conducted with the homeland Government without delay concerning the establishment of homeland towns at strategic places near the mines where these mines will be able to accommodate the Black labourers to enable them to commute to their work on a daily basis.

I want to give examples. Black labourers who work on the asbestos mines live at Mothibistad. This is a few miles outside Kuruman. Black workers commute daily between there and Kuruman on their own bus service, and they catch the mine buses at Kuruman. Then they are conveyed 40 miles to their work and in the evening they are taken back. In the evening, therefore, that worker sleeps with his family in his own house. About 300 Black labourers travel daily with their own transport to Sishen—that is about 35 miles from Mothibistad—to work there, and in the evening they sleep with their own families in their own homeland.

I was speaking today to the manager of the Anglo American company, Mr. Oliver. At the moment the company is starting to exploit manganese on the farm Middelplaas, the birthplace of the hon. member for Durban Central. Anglo American would like to accommodate their White workers at Kuruman. They are prepared to accommodate their Black workers within the homeland if a strategically situated town can be assigned to them. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Kuruman on his speech and tell him that we in the planning group are proud of our chairman.

I should like to say something about statistics. Before the adjournment for supper I listened attentively to what the hon. member for Benoni had to say. One can establish almost any trend with statistics, but—and I do not say this with evil intent—to determine the statistics of the UP at this stage is an absolute impossibility, however scientifically one goes about it. I should like to say a few words concerning the activities of the department in connection with population projections and the issue of unemployment.

Much use is made of statistics, but alas! not much is said about it. In 1976 the department published 75 statistical reports which covered a very wide field. Furthermore, between 45 000 and 50 000 copies of statistical news reports on results of short-term mining statistical surveys are made available every month. This information serves to indicate the scope of and the trends in the most important activities in the economic and socio-economic spheres of the national economy. Then, too, there is the statistical processing by the department of about 4 million returns or questionnaires per annum. Another important aspect of the activities of the department, particularly during last year, was the success they achieved in establishing a bonus incentive scheme which resulted in the average production of the staff in the sections where the system was instituted, increasing by about 30%. Another important fact is that the department is achieving exceptional success in publishing the most up-to-date statistics at as early a stage as possible.

Statistics constitute the agenda in accordance with which a country is developed, and they also have a great deal to do with orderly management. At the same time, they keep the minutes of the proceedings in accordance with which the trends in the important activities in the national economy can be taken into account. A matter of great importance to our national economy which the Department of Statistics placed on the agenda is the release of the information relating to the population projections extending to the year 2020. These are proper projections and not advance estimates. The 1970 census year is the base year in this connection.

Information relating to the growth in the population over the long-term is of exceptional importance, because purposeful planning is essential if we are to keep pace with the demands of sustained development such as the provision of infrastructure, food, social services and so on. According to the projections—I am only going to quote a few figures—there will be 4 684 650 Whites, 2 721 280 Coloureds, 828 840 Asians and 20 364 750 Bantu in 1980. The projection for the year 2000 is as follows: Whites,

6 641 000—I am rounding off the numbers to the nearest thousand—Coloureds, 4 698 000; Asians, 1 270 000; and Bantu 34 747 000.

The next population census is being carried out in 1980 and it will be very interesting to compare the result with the population projection for 1980 which I have just mentioned. However, it is also very important because it will undoubtedly have an influence on the population projections for the future, and will undoubtedly give substance to the projections. In my opinion the 1980 census will be of great importance in our whole set-up, particularly, too, with a view to the advance planning of all the facets of our national economy. With a view to the 1980 census, the department is doing preparatory work this month by carrying out practical tests, and they are sending questionnaires to about 24 000 people by way of a random survey. The scientific random survey will cover all population groups and all levels of every population group. It will therefore be possible to determine whether the questions have been asked correctly, whether the questions are understandable, how they are interpreted and in what respects the questionnaires should be adjusted. It is very important that the people who have to answer the questionnaires should co-operate fully, because the random surveys will serve as a basis for the 1980 census. That is why it is essential that all problems be ironed out in advance. The 1980 census is a major undertaking and about 30 000 workers shall carry out the survey. It will cost about R15 million and approximately 30 million records will have to be processed.

I am convinced that the fact that the population census is held every 10 years is a matter that should be given attention. I have just referred to the population projections and I believe it is essential that interim censuses be carried out at shorter intervals than 10 years—say every five years or even every three years. I accept that it is not practical to undertake so comprehensive an in-depth census as the one that is carried out every ten years. I want to make an earnest request that interim censuses be held that basically could consist of a mere counting of heads and could determine the movement, accommodation and labour pattern of people. This would not, therefore, be an in-depth census but merely a short questionnaire in which a few basic details were ascertained. These data could be of great value, not only in adjusting the population projections or indicating trends, but particularly with a view to orderly planning. I am convinced that for a developing country, particularly one with our specific population set-up, interim censuses have become indispensable.

The final aspect to which I want to refer is the important requirement, particularly in the present economic climate, of reliable data relating to the unemployment position in South Africa. We hear about many estimates and calculations, and I believe it is essential that we should have an accurate survey in this connection. The existing figures for the Whites, the Coloureds and the Asians are indices of the number of work seekers, it is true, but in the case of the Bantu the figures are not satisfactory. The department’s intention to carry out a survey among the Bantu in regard to unemployment this September is a matter of great interest. In the nature of the matter, a random survey of Bantu households could be carried out in order to form a reliable picture of the unemployment problem among the Bantu. About 10 000 Bantu households will be involved in this. It is also envisaged to compile a more accurate unemployment figure amongst Coloureds and about 2 000 Coloured families will be involved in this regard. What is important is that the subsequent trend must be plotted at all times. I am grateful, too, that the intention is to continue this study every quarter in regard to unemployment among the Bantu. I trust that it will also be possible to extend this to the other population groups.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member whether he is aware of a report which appeared in The Star of 3 May 1977 and reads as follows—

I just want to ask whether the hon. member is aware of that report?

I am sorry that I was unaware of the report; if I had been, I could have based a good argument on it. In any event I am grateful to the hon. member for Carletonville. From the survey we shall form a picture of the distribution of employment, the pattern of the labour force and of the real unemployed. That is the present problem that is being experienced: What is an unemployed person? I believe that a clear distinction can be drawn between those who want to work and those who are workshy. A person who is workshy is certainly not an unemployed person.

To conclude, I should like to ask that a similar survey in respect of the Whites be carried out as soon as possible. I realize that funds are a problem but I am convinced that it is essential that this is a series of statistics which ought to be developed on a comprehensive basis.

Mr. Chairman, one could perhaps react to the speech by the hon. member who has just resumed his seat by saying that when one is dealing with a problem, one cannot solve that problem while beating about the bush. In the first place one should be prepared to accept the realities and to face them squarely. The hon. member who spoke just before the hon. member who has just resumed his seat, i.e. the hon. member for Kuruman, said he came from a part of the world where the policy of separate development is succeeding magnificently at the moment. When I look at the events and the developments during the past few days, I should say that it is in the North-Western Cape more than anywhere else where the policy of separate development is failing miserably and is obviously and clearly collapsing.

†I think the hon. member for Bellville is in the House. On a previous occasion when we talked about legislation of the Department of Planning, I gave a description of Nationalist Party planning legislation. Having given a description of the legislation which I thought was deplorable, the hon. member for Bellville said that that was political pornography. I accept that I am not an expert on pornography, such as the hon. member obviously is. Therefore I went and looked up the meaning of the word “pornography” in the dictionary. Remember that I had described in my speech the activities of the Nationalist Party which that member says is pornography. “Pornography”, according to the dictionary, is “the description of the manners, etc., of harlots; the treatment of obscene subjects in literature …”. I could not as aptly describe the policies or the activities of the Nationalist Party as the hon. member for Bellville has done. He has gone much further and in much more colourful language has said that the policies and the activities of the Nationalist Party are a description of the activities of harlots and the treatment of these obscene activities in literature.

The hon. member spoke about unemployment, and I think that it is important that we come back to it. I think everybody accepts that South Africa is in a very serious economic situation. There is a critical shortage of foreign investment capital. We have an uncontrolled population growth, malnutrition, housing problems and job shortage. We are politically embattled in South Africa, and we face escalating unemployment. I have said that one thing we cannot allow is to run away from the implications of our escalating unemployment situation. I appeal to the Government that, no matter how serious and shocking that situation is, they must face it and do something practical about it. The longer they deny that it exists and the longer they deny that it is extremely serious, so long will they fail to come to grips with that problem. I should just like to quote very briefly from a report presented by the Association of Chambers of Commerce. I am sure that everybody on the other side has this report available. On page 6 the following appears—

In other words, as an illustration of the inability and the failure of the Government to provide sufficient job opportunities—

In fact, Mr. Chairman, according to the figures of the Department of Statistics, employment in these sectors only increased by 25 000 over this period. In other words, there was a shortfall over that period of 148 000, because 173 000 were required. There is a feeling of desperation, almost a panic, in the employment sectors of South Africa. The National Union of Clothing Workers sent an urgent telegram to the Prime Minister and also to the Minister of Labour and to the Minister of Planning, requesting an urgent interview in order to discuss this matter. I believe that the Department of the Minister of Planning can play an important part in assisting the Departments of Economic Affairs, Labour, and so forth, in order to meet this situation. The jobs of this department is to activate and stimulate economic growth in harmony with the need to conserve our environment and our resources.

It is their job to provide a better quality of life for all South Africans; it is their job to provide higher standards of living for all South Africans; it is their job to provide employment to the employment seekers; and it is their job to provide workers for those people who want to employ them. That can be done provided the Government is prepared to adopt an entirely new approach to their responsibilities in this connection. They must be prepared to see that in the cases where legislation is based purely on ideological requirements, on ideological prejudices and attitudes, those attitudes must be scrapped. They must also scrap all legislation that is based on those attitudes because that legislation and its application is militating against our ability to provide employment for all our workers. We must be prepared to scrap all legislation which militates against the best use of all our human resources which is in the interests of the society as a whole and the individual.

I want to give two examples. Many organizations, which have wanted to diversify and to produce additional products in their factories, have not been able to do so because it would have meant the employment of more Black labour. They have had the management and technological skills required to diversify and to produce additional products. The only thing they required was the right to employ more Black labour. They were denied that because it conflicted with the ideological requirements of the Government which applied legislation to prevent it. So South Africa lost that economic growth and an expansion in our industries as a result of that. The other example is that many industries voluntarily want to advance Black people in their organizations. They want to give them better and more responsible jobs and also better-paid jobs. However, they cannot do so because if they do so and those Blacks move up, unskilled Blacks move into their place and the ratio between White and Black would therefore be changed to such an extent that it would conflict with Government policy, and, because it would conflict with Government policy, these industrialists are prevented from improving the position of Black workers in these industries.

You are talking nonsense.

The Government’s legislation, which makes it impossible for them to employ more Black people, also makes it impossible for them to improve the conditions of employment of those Black people. It makes it impossible for them to promote and advance Black people to better jobs. I have given just two examples, but there are hundreds and hundreds of examples of which industry in South Africa is aware where the legislation of this Government is undermining and sabotaging the economic effort of South Africa; …

That is not true.

… where the legislation of this Government is creating unemployment and misery; where the legislation of this country is creating bad race relationships; and where the legislation of this Government is in fact undermining the security of our country, the happiness of our peoples and the prospects for peace for our future.

Mr. Chairman, I think the House will probably share in my feelings when I say that I prefer not to reply to such a tirade, with the exception, of course, of the few things that had some merit.

You have got to answer.

You must not run away.

Sir, since the hon. member says that I am running away from the issue, let me say that in so far as it has any bearing on the Vote at all, I shall, in fact, reply to it. However, I do not see my way clear to replying to the politicking. I think there are opportunities for having a good fight about politics, but there are also opportunities when one ought to perceive the true essence of a matter and not draw venom from everything. I want to point to the difference between the approach of the hon. member for Benoni and that of the hon. member for Bryanston. There is one matter I want to reply to, i.e. the restriction on Bantu labour. I want to put the matter to them in words of one syllable. He says it is Government policy to discriminate. He broadcasts to the world that that is the reason why there is unemployment. I think we must be level-headed enough to tell one another—as I have done before, accepting full responsibility for it—that there is the danger of unemployment and that it is a very real danger indeed. We cannot get away from that. As junior member of the Government, I would be neglecting my duty and telling a lie if I did not say that the increase in the unemployment figure ought to be a cause of concern to us and that we ought to give it our attention.

Why do you not do something about it?

That hon. member at the back there is interrupting me again and saying we must do something about it. If the hon. member would listen now and then, without interrupting, he would know that the first thing we did, when the phenomenon manifested itself, was to take special steps for the proper control of the unemployment, which reflects a world-wide trend. The hon. member for Klerksdorp mentioned the fact. Having acknowledged that there is unemployment, I could shrug it off by saying: “But there is unemployment throughout the world.” That would be irresponsible in the extreme, however, because we are faced with that situation in South Africa and it is essential that we combat it. Since the hon. member alleges that Government policy is the reason for this unemployment, and since he alleges that he can mention hundreds of cases of people who have been thrown out of their jobs as a result of the policy of the Government, let me invite him—and I do extend this as an invitation—to tell me about those hundreds of cases. I have a task to perform, and if people bring it to my attention that there is large-scale unemployment as a result of steps we have taken in this department, it will be my duty to have a look at the matter. In any case, I want to emphasize that every time an hon. member, from whatever party, has come to the department to speak about such matters, we have given them our attention. However, simply to allege that hundreds of people have been thrown out of their jobs, as a result of Government policy, reveals an irresponsibility I would not have expected from a man in a responsible position, and that is putting it mildly. What are the facts?

Mr. Chairman, may I put a question to the Deputy Minister?

If the hon. member for Pinelands politely wants to ask me a question, as one ex-clergyman to another, he may stand up and do so, but he must not continually interrupt me like a chatter-box.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to know from the hon. the Deputy Minister what he is doing, not only saying, about unemployment in South Africa.

Let me state immediately what we are doing. I am not the only one who is responsible for this. It is my responsibility to carry out a portion of the task on behalf of the Government. What has to be done, firstly, is to determine the extent of the unemployment and then to take steps to counteract it. The year before last the Government began with a training programme for Bantu workers. It was then some of that crowd opposite, of which the hon. member is a member, people who can largely contribute to the training of Bantu, who said we should give training to the Black people.

†It was put to me in this way, and I am quoting, because I remember the exact words of the industrialist. He told me: “If you allow me to train my Bantu people, then, instead of using 100, I shall be able to use only ten.” I told the industrialist to go ahead and to train ten, but please to tell me what to do with the 90 who will be unemployed thereafter. Was there a reply to that question? No. What happens? It suddenly becomes the problem of the Government. Of course it is the Government that has to face up to the problem. I have never denied it. Neither have I ever run away from it. However, one must realize that one cannot create work opportunities for a person and expect him to go and work there without accommodation and all that goes with it.

You must have some plan.

The hon. member knows this. Merely to say that there is unemployment and that we must please solve the problem, is all very well. If the hon. member can wave a magic wand, I shall be only too pleased to hand this job to him.

Is that an invitation?

I now come back to the hon. member for Bryanston, who waxed eloquent about what the Government is doing to create unemployment for hundreds and hundreds of people. I merely want to invite him once again to come and prove to me that hundreds are unemployed at the moment because of the specific policy of this department. This invitation still stands. [Interjections.]

*I want to leave the hon. member at that. It is my honest opinion that all the shouting that some people do is done to focus unnecessary attention on themselves. I therefore want to appeal to hon. members on the Government side: When a donkey brays, please keep quiet; the donkey will eventually keep quiet too. [Interjections.] One must not pay too much attention to a person who continually tries to suck poison from a flower.

That is a very feeble reply!

I want to come back to the hon. member for Benoni. In the things he said there is, in fact, some truth. I now want to give some attention to that. I hope he will calmly be able to carry these truths further. I do believe him to be capable of it. Firstly, let me refer to his statement that we must work together on the geographic planning of South Africa. I agree with him about that. The department has not been idle in connection with physical planning in co-operation with the homelands. There has been liaison, at Cabinet level, with the Governments of the homelands. We can refer to planning as federation, or we can call it by any other conceivable name. The fact is that in Southern Africa peoples and people—groups of people or whatever one wants to call them—will have to take one another by the hand. One of the departments under whose auspices this can be done, is the Department of Planning. We can tell one another, in levelheaded and non-political terms, that soil conservation in one district is equally as good as soil conservation in another. I can go even further than South Africa. The mountains of Lesotho are also beautiful mountains and also form part of Southern Africa, even if they are situated in a foreign country. To help Lesotho with the Oxbow Scheme, and to obtain its co-operation in that project, is as important to us as it is to Lesotho. There is consequently a great deal that can be done about this problem, if only it is not continually dragged into the political arena, as has been done here, by people who want to compete with one another.

The hon. member for Benoni also spoke about Actonville and Page View. The hon. member, who is a sensible member of the Opposition, surely knows that there are no possibilities for expansion at Actonville. I want to ask the hon. member quite frankly—if we have to talk politics on this score—whether he agrees with me that we should simply declare a portion of Benoni’s White residential an Indian residential area tomorrow. Would the hon. member support such a step? Since he wants to infringe upon the jurisdiction of another town, I want to ask him frankly whether he would tomorrow endorse a proposal to the effect that part of Benoni’s White area—in his constituency—be declared a residential area for Indians? Is the hon. member prepared to take such a step? [Interjections.]

Yes. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, I am not saying … [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. the Deputy Minister’s time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, I am just standing up to allow the hon. the Deputy Minister to complete his speech. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, I think we must wait till next year. Then I shall be able to report to the House on whether the hon. member for Benoni has introduced a motion to that effect. The House can then consider the motion. [Interjections.]

I regard it as my duty, in the few moments at my disposal, to discuss a few matters of current interest … [Interjections.]

Order! Hon. members must please not make so many interjections. I cannot hear the hon. the Deputy Minister at all.

We find it simply irresistible!

I just want to make a few announcements in connection with a few matters of current interest, matters which have already been referred to, and I regard it as my duty, as Deputy Minister, to react to them. Firstly, as hon. members know, there was an announcement in the Government Gazette today that a commission of inquiry has been appointed to investigate the problems in connection with Table Mountain and the question of the conservation of Table Mountain and its environs.

Hear, hear!

The hon. member for Benoni alleged that this kind of thing is only done when the public insists on it. That may be true. I am not ashamed about that, however. I have always believed that the public of South Africa, broadly speaking, has a love for this country, and I therefore gladly listen to the public of South Africa. If the hon. member intends his allegation, i.e. that we only react to public representations, to be an allegation against me, I gladly confess my guilt, and what is more thank the public of Cape Town, the Press, the Table Mountain Mountain Club and other bodies who made the representations and made a reaction possible. I want to express the hope that the commission will do so much good work that all the petty snippets of comment about the matter will fall by the wayside.

As a member of the public, and not in his capacity as a member of the House of Assembly, the hon. member made representations about Magaliesberg. He was not the only one either. He may take consolation in the fact that he is in good company. There are hundreds of Nationalists, for example the hon. member for Brits and others, who also made representations about Table Mountain. As in the other cases, we also listened to these representations. Magaliesberg has been declared a nature conservation area. An application to mine silica at Castle Gorge was refused by this department on the grounds that this might do harm to the environment, because the same raw materials could be obtained elsewhere and also because we want to preserve the entire Magaliesberg area as a legacy for our descendants. In the past year work has also been done on the Langebaan Lagoon area and attention has also been given to the St. Croix area, as requested by hon. members on various sides of the House. I hope that an announcement in connection with what specifically is envisaged, in co-operation with the provincial administration, will bring quick results.

I quickly want to mention a few more points. There has also been talk, and there have been articles in the Press, about group areas. Since September last year a Coloured and an Indian, Mr. Stober and Mr. Maudley, have been appointed as full-time members of the Group Areas Board. That was done so that they could promote the interests of Coloureds and Indians from the first phase of the declaring of group areas onwards. In that connection let me also say that the procedure for the declaring of group areas has been changed to such an extent that in the past few weeks it has been possible for us to decide— and implement that decision—that consultation can take place with the Indian and Coloured communities that are affected. Thereby, for example, the process of declaring Indian areas can be shortened by a matter of weeks.

I owe it to the hon. member for Pretoria West to state that his representations in connection with the Indian area at Laudium, which is being extended to Claudius, has been given the utmost attention and that a decision about this area will shortly, after discussions with the Minister of Indian Affairs, be made known to the House and to interested parties in the area.

I also want to inform the House that a Select Committee has been appointed to consider the whole question of littering, a matter which has been given attention here, in discussions, over the past few years. If the work can be completed this year, we shall come along with legislation next year that will satisfy those people who will be economically affected, and also satisfy the country as a whole which has probably, with great concern, taken note of the evils of littering.

I should like to dwell for a moment on our permit policy. I was very happy to note, from the preliminary reports about shows which were attended by various population groups in the past year and where the arrangements were chiefly entrusted to the administrations of the various shows, that this kind of attendance made very favourable strides. I want to thank the respective population groups, and particularly the managements, very sincerely. Mr. Chairman, forgive me if, in passing, I tell those three hon. members of the PRP in those back benches, people who have so much to say about relationships between peoples and always have a mouthful to say about how the Blacks are dominated, that they are showing their scorn, not for me, but for the interests of the respective population groups and that this is an opportunity when one would have expected them to have listened with their ears cocked and not to have used the opportunity to tell each other parsonical jokes. [Interjections.] I will excuse the hon. members if they want to go outside to tell their jokes. The hon. member for Bryanston ought to be able to tell them a few good ones.

If you have something to say, we shall listen.

In connection with statistics, I just want to thank the hon. member for Klerksdorp for his contribution

[Inaudible.]

Sir, that hon. clergyman must now please start keeping his mouth shut.

If you start saying something worthwhile we shall listen.

I want to thank the hon. member for Klerksdorp for his contribution. I can assure him that the Department of Statistics is intent on bringing the unemployment and census figures up to date to such an extent that we hope to make projections every three months so that it will be possible to exercise proper control over the actual unemployment situation and the general situation in connection with our statistics.

I want to make a few remarks about beach areas. The delimination of beach areas, about which a great deal has been written in the newspapers in recent times, is a matter that rests with the provincial authorities. Since there has been criticism, I want to say, in the clearest possible terms this evening, that as far as possible the future development of beach areas will be done in co-operation with the provincial administration of the Cape and Natal, after we have held discussions with them, to allow further development at specific growth points. The further development of beach areas, where there is a surplus of plots available, will chiefly be restricted to those places where growth points do exist.

You will not have a Torlage Commission again.

I do not know to what commission reference is being made. I am, in any case, merely putting forward the viewpoint of the department.

†I want to conclude by thanking the department and its officials for the work done in the past year. We have lost our previous Secretary to another department and a new Secretary took over. The work was done in such a competent way that we can report progress. If we have the co-operation of the Opposition, and of all people in South Africa, I am quite sure that the department’s work of proper utilization and preservation will be continued with in the same way as it was done in the past year.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Deputy Minister spent most of his time replying to the speech of the hon. member for Benoni. He also castigated the hon. member for Bryanston for having supposedly had the audacity to say that the Government was responsible for the unemployment in South Africa to a certain degree. I am the last person to defend the hon. member for Bryanston. I do, however, want to remind the hon. the Deputy Minister that, due to the Environmental Planning Act of 1968, no fewer than 2 000 applications for the establishment of industries and industrial expansion were turned down by this department and that no fewer than 90 000 Blacks were affected by this. Had those applications not been turned down, 90 000 more Black people could have been employed. I shall not go into the matter any further, but I shall leave it to the hon. member for Walmer to enlarge on it.

This department ought to be the most important in the whole Cabinet, because it deals with statistics. This department determines the priorities of Government projects in South Africa. In other words, this is the Minister who has to fulfil a co-ordinating function between various departments. But what do we find? We find that every department is building a small empire for itself. There is no liaison between departments, and consequently it amazes me that the departments do not have to spend half their time sorting out the problems caused by other departments and that they do not waste half their time struggling to get free of the mountains of red tape and that, in consequence, they are not able to function properly. As an example, I should like to show how my constituency had to battle with red tape. It had to battle with it due to a lack of planning on that side of the House.

In 1968, the Coloured area of Schornville was declared a White area by the department and a German settlement 7 km from King William’s Town, Breidbach, was declared a Coloured area. Of course, there was a great deal of dissatisfaction at the time, because it is no minor change if one’s home is suddenly moved 7 km away from one’s work, whereas before one had lived next to the town. Great plans were put forward for Breidbach. It would be developed into a fine Coloured town, of which the Whites and the Coloureds could be proud. Nine years have passed now, and what has happened during those nine years? Schornville has been frozen and further housing cannot be provided there, because it has become a White area now. Recreation facilities could not be built there and nothing else could be erected there, because the area was frozen as a result of being declared a White area.

What happened in Breidbach in the meantime? Nine years passed and one would have expected a fine town to have risen there, but do hon. members know what happened there? Not a single stone has been turned yet. Not a single Government house has been built in Breidbach in nine years. The Coloured population of the area has increased from 1 500 to 4 500, but not a single Government house has been built. Do hon. members know why the population has grown so much? It is because the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development stepped in too. Amongst other things, he gave large portions of that area to the Ciskei. The Coloureds who were living in Keiskammahoek had to be moved to King William’s Town and now all those Coloureds are sitting in King William’s Town. Where was their planning then? Was there never any co-ordination, and did they never discuss the matters amongst themselves? Did they never try to determine what the effect of the action of the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development would be on the affairs under the control of the hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs? [Interjections.] Why did nothing happen there? Three Ministers were involved, i.e. the Minister of Agriculture …

No, Boet, leave me alone, man. [Interjections.]

With all respect towards that hon. Minister, he was not a Minister yet at that time; he was still a junior then. The hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs and the hon. the Minister of Community Development were also involved in this transaction. The Minister of Agriculture had to buy the land, the Minister of Coloured Affairs had to draw up the plans, and the Minister of Community Development had to provide the money. As I have already said, nine years have passed and nothing has happened yet.

The Member of Parliament does nothing.

That hon. member says that the Member of Parliament does nothing. [Interjections.] We led deputation after deputation to the Cape and I now want to ask the hon. member: How does one get these three Ministers together? [Interjections.] It is simply an impossible task. [Interjections.] On 3 June 1975, after the petitions which I had sent to the hon. the Minister, it was eventually decided that the development could go ahead and that 500 units could be built for the Coloureds in Breidbach. The King William’s Town town council went to work immediately. The council sent in its engineers and they began to construct roads.

That just shows you what can be done.

I am not yet finished with the story. Then they had to get the money. Suddenly, in March 1976, they received a letter from the Department of Community Development in which the department informed them that there was no money available. They could not continue and had to stop just there. Once again it was a question of sending deputation after deputation to try and talk to all the Ministers.

It will not help.

We could not speak to all of them, we only spoke to a few of them. Then they said that the council could go ahead and borrow the money at an interest rate of 12,8% in order to bridge the gap. In October 1976, discussions were held with the Department of Community Development once again and then R1,3 million was made available for that year and R1 million for each year thereafter. Do hon. members know what happened then? In February this year they heard from the Department of Community Development that the R1,3 million which was granted in October, would no longer be given, but that they would only give the amount which had already been spent. Hon. members must remember that tenders had been called for and after that, the whole business was stopped again. After more discussions had been held, and further petitions made, R2,2 million, at least was granted. This happened after nine long years, but there is not a single house yet. Do hon. members know what happened then? Then the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Affairs came along

Which one?

The new one. He threw 1 000 Coloureds out of Braunschweig and they also had to be resettled in King William’s Town. There were no houses for the previous ones to start with, but now there are another 1 000. I now ask the hon. the Minister of Planning and the Environment: Where was the planning in this case? Where was the co-ordination? Did they not plan anything at that time? What about the discussions which we held with the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Affairs? [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member’s time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, I am just rising to ask that the hon. member be given the opportunity to complete his speech. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member must resume his seat.

Mr. Chairman, I think that the hon. member for King William’s Town is grateful that I got up after all. I do not think that he actually had anything to say. The hon. member accused the Department of Planning and the Environment of all sorts of things which were supposed to have gone wrong in his constituency. It is, however, very clear to me that there are only two bodies or persons to blame. One is the hon. member himself, as a representative of that constituency, and all the other departments except for the Department of Planning and the Environment, because the work of the latter department was concluded nine years ago. That is why that department and this hon. Minister cannot be responsible for what happened after that.

I should, however, like to return to the speech of the hon. member for Bryanston, and I am very serious in saying this. I want to return to one aspect in particular which the hon. member mentioned in his speech. I am tired of sitting in this House and having members of that party stand up and refer arrogantly to previous speakers. That hon. member does not even have the decency to establish the constituency of the hon. member who spoke before him, so that he can at least address him by the name of his constituency.

Do not be so petty.

No, I am not being petty. This is a serious matter. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon. members must please be silent.

I want to spend more time on those hon. members, especially that hon. clergyman, the hon. member for Pinelands.

Order! The hon. members must please refrain from using terms other than the customary.

I withdraw it, Mr. Chairman, and I say the hon. member for Pinelands. The hon. member for Pinelands asked the hon. the Deputy Minister what the position was as regards all the unemployed Black people. I want to ask the hon. member: What about the 217 qualified attorneys in this country who have to do other work because there is no legal work for them to do? What about the architects in this country who have to do other work and cannot do their normal work? What about the engineers in this country who have to do other work because they cannot find employment as engineers? Let me ask the hon. member: What about the 3 800 qualified lawyers in America who are unemployed at this very moment? Is this due to apartheid? Those hon. members have only one thing in their heads and are only concerned if there is the slightest chance that a Black man might be without employment.

That is not true.

Of course it is true. The hon. member has never opened his mouth in this House to ask for work to be provided for these people which I have just mentioned.

That is not true.

Of course it is true. Mr. Chairman, I should like to deal with another matter. Usually one wastes time in chatting like this. I should like to broach a matter with the hon. the Minister. We have already made progress in South Africa and demarcated the 38 development regions in the country. Over the past few years we have progressed by creating a broad ground-plan for planning in South Africa. We have progressed further, in that the hon. the Minister has already appointed regional planning advisory committees in four regions. I should like to say tonight that we in the Western Transvaal— region 23—are very grateful that we form one of these four regions. Now I want to say that, since we have now demarcated these regions, it has become an urgent necessity that we should find a basis on which to involve the people in those regions in the planning thereof. Of course, planning will only be successful if one can have the people of those areas on one’s side in a certain project. It is absolutely essential to have that attitude if one wants to see regional development associations playing their part in this regard. One can so easily land up in a situation where one has a fine project for a region, but then town A wants everything for itself at the expense of town B. What one has to do now, is to obtain unanimity amongst those people so that they will realize that town A cannot have everything, and that certain things must go to town B, and that there must be the necessary co-ordination between the various towns and/or regions. We have a regional development association for practically every development region in South Africa. We are grateful to the hon. the Minister for the fact that he has accepted the recommendations of the regional development associations as far as the composition of regional development advisory committees is concerned. We must attach the necessary value to the regional development associations. I want to ask the hon. the Minister tonight to arrange for us in South Africa to hold a meeting of the regional development advisory committee so that we can discuss matters and in this way work out a regional planning policy. There is no point in our making progress in one region if the adjacent region makes no progress. There is interaction between one region and the next. We must have priorities. No one denies this. But what we think is in fact necessary, is that we must have this discussion so that we can supplement one another and discuss with one another how we want regional planning, which is now in the hands of the people of the region, to take place. If we do not succeed in doing this, we can forget about planning.

At the beginning of his speech, when he was still saying something decent, the hon. member for King William’s Town said that he considered this to be the most important department. Without giving those hon. members something to feel happy about, I want to say that I agree 100% with the hon. member. The time has passed when we could simply expect the Department of Planning and the Environment to tell us what the factual position was and what must flow from it. This is what the hon. members on the opposite side would like to see: Because the people are there, the work must be brought to them. The department has a policy. I think it is time for us in South Africa to realize it is not the task of the Department of Planning and the Environment simply to interpret and pass on facts, but that in fact the department has a planning task to carry out. Then too it is the duty of every one of us sitting in this House to accept that the department has this task. I say this in all respect, and when I speak about everyone in the House, I include the Ministers. If we accept that it is the task of the Department of Planning and the Environment to plan, we must make it known from this House that we are not dealing with a department which merely collects facts and performs a co-ordinating function, but that we are in fact dealing with a department which in view of South Africa’s circumstances, must lay down guidelines and set a course in accordance with the policy of the governing party in this House.

Mr. Chairman, it is always a pleasure to speak after the hon. member for Schweizer-Reneke. The Good Book teaches us that some of us were given one talent, some three and some more than that. It is a great privilege to listen to the hon. member for Schweizer-Reneke, regardless of whether he is talking about Bantu Affairs, Justice or Planning. I think, however, that the hon. member for Schweizer-Reneke must not be too hard on the hon. member for Pinelands, because it is clear that whatever the hon. member for Pinelands drank with his dinner tonight, he drank too much of it.

No, no.

Order! The hon. member must withdraw that insinuation.

But Mr. Chairman, surely it is obvious.

Order! The hon. member must withdraw it.

I withdraw it, Mr. Chairman.

I should like to strike out in a new direction in discussing this Vote. I should like to talk about the subject of energy. Science teaches us that there are certain things which man cannot make; these include life, but especially two other substances, and these are matter and energy. I should like to say a few words about energy and the energy policy in South Africa tonight. Until a few years ago South Africans were not at all concerned about energy. We had energy resources in abundance, so to speak. Wood was abundant, coal was abundant and fuel, in the form of oil, paraffin and diesel, was cheap. That is why no one was concerned about energy. Looking at the term “energy”, one finds that it is extremely difficult to define this term. Apparently, it comes from the Greek term “energeia” or the older term “ergon” which actually meant “work”. If one is looking for a valid definition for energy, one finds that regardless of whether one looks at the Dutch, the Afrikaans or the German term, what it basically boils down to is that it is a force which can bring about movement, heat or an action. There is one thing that we know, and that is that without energy we cannot produce food, we cannot clothe people, we cannot grow economically and no country can put itself in a state of preparedness. That is why we find that food and energy, or rather the lack of it, is one of the greatest problems of the modern world. In primitive communities, and even in completely underdeveloped communities today, it has never constituted a problem, nor is it a problem at present either. For light energy they either use animal fats or oils in an earthen or stone jar with a piece of thong or reed in it to serve as a wick. This was their light. For heat they used wood, dung or mealie cobs. But what is the situation today? We find today that 95% of the total energy consumption of the world is fossil energy, which comes from the so-called fossil fuels. Basically, this consists of coal, lignite, anthracite, natural gas and, most important, crude oil. In other words, the world and therefore South Africa too, is totally dependent on those energy resources, which are limited and exhaustible and are rapidly being used up. On the other hand, there are the inexhaustible energy resources, of which we are utilizing a mere 5% at the moment. These sources consist of hydroelectric power, solar energy, wind energy and also tidal energy. To give an idea of the increasing trend of energy consumption, all I have to do is to point out the alarming fact that over the past 13 years, we have used as much energy as has been used in the entire history of mankind prior to that period. This is an alarming fact. It means that there is a growing trend in the use of fossil energy. There are basically three reasons for this.

Firstly, there is the population explosion. Secondly, there is man’s continual striving to increase his standard of living and his real level of prosperity. We have become so lazy that we do not even brush our teeth ourselves any more. We even use an electric toothbrush for that. We have become so lazy that those of us who have developed a paunch, are not prepared to go jogging or to do exercises, but get hold of a vibrator which runs on electricity, so that we do not even have to take exercise any more. Thirdly, a tremendous wastage of energy is taking place.

Two-thirds of the known oil reserves in the world have already been tapped in the Middle East. That is why the Opec countries have $eized on this mighty weapon to such an extent that since 1970, the price per barrel of crude oil has increased ninefold, namely from 1,50 dollars per barrel to 13 dollars. Whether this is accepted or not, one thing stands out like a sore thumb, and that is that the known oil resources cannot last longer than 1990 at the present rate of consumption. A mere 13 years from now none of the known oil resources in the world will be left. A crisis arose in 1973, a political and economic crisis, with the concomitant tremendous increase in the price of crude oil, but in 1990, or very shortly afterwards, there will not be a political crisis. There will, in fact, be an oil crisis then, because the demand will still be there but the supply will not. What will the result of this be? The result will be that we will have to bid higher and higher for the limited amount of oil. The price will then necessarily shoot up, with an inflammatory result on the economy of the countries which are primarily dependent on crude oil for their energy requirements.

If this is a world trend, how do matters stand in South Africa? It is a well-known fact that we are only dependent on imported crude oil for between 20% and 25% for our energy requirements. It is alarming, however, to note that until a few years ago, we believed that we still had sufficient coal reserves for hundreds of years to come. So-called experts even maintained that our coal supply would still last thousands of years. After the report of the Petrick Commission was published, however, that idea was knocked on the head. Therefore, if we want to face the truth tonight, we must first accept one thing. At the present rate of consumption, at the present rate of export, and with the present tendency to mine only the best of this mineral, as well as the tendency sometimes to market only 15% of the exploitable mineral, we have only enough coal for the next 15 years.

Now we ask: What about uranium? South Africa’s total supply of uranium is not even equivalent to 15% of our coal reserves. If we add it all up, we find that it will scarcely last until the end of this century.

I want to ask for two things tonight. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to set about creating a central controlling body for all our energy resources in South Africa. An overall plan must be drawn up for energy in South Africa, a plan in accordance with which the real extent of our resources and the best way to utilize our energy resources will be determined. In terms of such a plan it must be determined whether we can still afford to export coal, and if possible, how long we shall still be able to do so. Furthermore, I want to ask that we in South Africa should launch an energy saving campaign. When South Africa was threatened by drought, we had a water year. We were experiencing a crisis then. The public, however, paid real attention to the matter. That is why I believe that if we get so far as to make the ordinary citizen aware of the fact that energy, too, must be conserved, we can cut down our present energy consumption by almost 30%.

Mr. Chairman, I am not going to react to the speech of the hon. member for Pretoria East. I should like to move in a different direction.

†Mr. Chairman, this hon. Minister has a most vital portfolio and his decisions affect the pulse speed of industry throughout the Republic. Therefore, it is absolutely essential that he should have a dynamic approach. Certain areas in the Republic have had their growth stunted, curtailed and even endangered by the application of the Environmental Planning Act. In terms of section 3 of the Act approximately 2 000 applications for new industries and extensions to existing industries have been refused, and approximately 100 000 potential Bantu employees have been affected through those refusals.

You cannot say that!

These are not my figures. The hon. member asks me how I can say this. These are answers to questions put by me to the hon. the Minister over the last couple of years. To that figure one must add the number of Whites, Coloureds and Indians who would have been employed in those factories and extensions, had they been built. I want to make it abundantly clear that we in the South African Party welcome decentralization on a sound economic basis. We believe that incentives must be offered to industries to decentralize.

If, however, after all those incentives have been offered, industries refuse to decentralize, we must not place obstacles and red tape in their way. We should let them expand in the interests of South Africa. The Government may well argue that some industries have agreed to decentralize, but the Government does not know how many did in fact decentralize or how many decided to shelve their plans. In answer to a question on the Question Paper, the hon. the Minister said that the reason why he could not give this answer was that there were 17 000 files to go through and that therefore he could not tell us what had happened to those industries. These 2 000 applicants would have invested thousands of millions of rand throughout the Republic of South Africa and would have created hundreds of thousands of job opportunities. As I have mentioned, the potential job loss at the moment for Blacks alone is nearly 100 000.

Can hon. members imagine the number of job opportunities these factories would have created in the next five, 10, 15 or 20 years had they been established? This could have been the economic heart transplant that we so badly need in South Africa. The Government is dealing with the economic life blood of this country in a most casual and irresponsible manner. [Interjections.] I want to ask the hon. the Minister: Who is responsible for these decisions? Is it the hon. the Minister or does he delegate the powers in regard to these matters? If the hon. the Minister takes the decisions, I would like to know whether he has the experience of industry to take these decisions. I believe an investigation should be made into these 2 000 applications which have been turned down. The hon. the Minister must try to persuade those industrialists whose applications they have shelved, to revive those applications in the interests of industry in South Africa.

I want to mention the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage area. That area is so heavily dependent on the motor industry that it is obvious that this restriction should be removed in order that the industrialists in this area may diversify. I would urge the hon. the Minister to relieve us of this onerous burden and, at the same time, to scrap the restrictions on the use of Bantu labour in our area. The hon. the Minister in reply to a question told me that the increasing Coloured population in the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage area should receive preference as a labour force and that Bantuintensive industries should rather be established in the homelands and border areas. That answer presupposes that the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage area has a Coloured majority. However, I want to tell the hon. the Minister that his supposition is wrong. I am told that the biggest population group in the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage area is the Bantu with 45%, next the Whites with 30,5% and then the Coloureds with 23,3% of the total population. The Coloureds are the smallest race group and yet it is a Coloured preference area. If the hon. the Minister had granted permission to those industries to open in Port Elizabeth it would have assisted the Coloured people as well as all the other race groups.

In the Durban-Pinetown area the Asiatics constitute 33,9% of the population. Yet it is not designated an Indian preference area. This is the sort of double standard that is applied by the Government. [Interjections.] I urge the Government to stop treating the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage area as the Cinderella complex of South Africa. The permanent Bantu living in the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage area are the largest population group and it is absolutely essential that employment be found for the natural growth of the Black population and, naturally for all the other race groups as well. If a Black man works in a shop there is no restriction, but if a Black man works in an extension to a factory or a new factory there is all sorts of rigmarole and red tape he has to go through. It is no use telling us that applications for exemptions can be made. The Government is doing the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage area irreparable harm, and this red tape is discouraging industry.

When an industrialist comes to our area he can be offered the finest facilities in South Africa. We have the land, the water, the electricity and a fully-fledged infrastructure. However, then he has to be told that there is a problem about section 3 of the Environmental Planning Act and he has to be told about the Coloured preference area problem. All these obstacles are placed in our way …

And the Government.

And the Government is in our way. Even established industries are discouraged by this bureaucratic attitude, as can be seen from the answers to questions last year. According to an answer, 19 applications for new factories were refused last year and three applications for extensions were refused in the Port Elizabeth area since the inception of the Act. I can still understand the refusal of applications under section 3 of the Act when there is an over-concentration of industries or over-population. However, in the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage complex none of those reasons apply. My appeal is that our complex be allowed to develop to its full capacity in order that we may play our part in the South African economy. I ask the hon. the Minister to remove the shackles which hang around the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage complex and other complexes throughout South Africa. My plea is not for an influx of people to Port Elizabeth, but for the existing population of Port Elizabeth to all have the opportunity of earning an honest living in the area they live in. There is a growing young population and generation from our complex coming on to the market each year looking for job opportunities. It is absolutely essential that they find work. People who want to work and to whom jobs are not available, become an element in our society which bodes ill for the future. I should like to see the Minister of Planning, Economic Affairs and Labour sitting down together with the public representatives of the area, together with the representatives of the municipalities, commerce, industry and the Afrikaanse Handeslinstituut. They will hear that the representations I am making tonight are accurate representations. They must reconsider their attitude. Our country is one country which is compelled to avoid unemployment almost at any cost. The consequences of large-scale unemployment are too ghastly to contemplate. The way to obviate this, is that there should be a concerted effort to encourage the free enterprise system in South Africa to the maximum. In its actions, as I have mentioned, the Government has done tremendous harm to the system of free enterprise in South Africa. The blocking of industrial development by artificial means must end now and it must end urgently.

The other matter I should like to raise with the hon. the Minister, is that he must clarify when we are going to get the guide plan for the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage area. As the hon. the Minister is aware, the property market is depressed. However, the failure to produce the guide plan is creating greater uncertainty and anxiety amongst property owners in our area. The guide plan was embarked upon in 1974. Since then I have placed questions on the Question Paper, I have written numerous letters to the hon. the Minister’s department and I have made representations to expedite this matter. I understand that the entire plan is being delayed to enable an agreement to be reached regarding the future direction of expansion of the existing Bantu residential area. This was the reply I received on 2 January 1976. Now, more than a year later I am told that the delay is still for the same reason. This Government is draggings its heels in this matter and they must now reach finality. The property owners want clarity. I want to urge the hon. the Minister to bring this matter to finality. It is a totally unfair situation, where everyone is kept in suspense through a lack of decision on the part of the Government. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the party of the hon. member for Walmer, who has just sat down, received its name over the weekend and now it seems to me that he has become a real swaggerer. I do not want to react to his speech any further because I want to make better use of my time to bring a more specific matter to the hon. the Minister’s attention. Then I shall return specifically to his speech and put paid to his swaggering.

I have with me the business supplement to Die Burger of 14 days ago. In this Sakenuus there is a main article entitled “Ambisieuse Bruin stad naby Klapmuts”. I want to read to hon. members the proposal of Prof. Page, who plays a very important role in Western Cape circles these days. Prof. Page helps to draw up various guide-plans. As far as I know, he is also on the Prime Minister’s Economic Advisory Council. I shall read the first few paragraphs of the article—

He continues—

I want to express the hope at once that this contentious plan—if one may call it that—of Prof. Page will be still-born. I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister tonight to see to it that the plan proposed here is not implemented within our Cape and our Boland pattern. I should like to motivate that. Around the Cape we have a metropolitan area today which is already virtually over-crowded. One can analyse it from every direction. The fact remains that we cannot make any new additions to the area. If one moves away from the area, one finds the old line of development running in the direction of Paarl and Wellington. The road and the railway line lie in that direction, and along this road all the towns have developed which today are strung out in the direction of Paarl. In this way we find Maitland, Goodwood, Vasco, Parow, Bell-ville, Durbanville, Brackenfell, Kraaifontein, Paarl and Wellington. In other words, we have here a line of growth which has developed over the years. The possibility is now being investigated of accommodating thousands of additional Coloureds along this line of development. If one analyses the planning structure of the situation, it is in my opinion a completely unsound proposal which is being made here.

I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to consider the situation, and I shall give my reasons for saying so. In the first place, we are dealing with an over-concentration in the Cape metropolitan area. I do not think we can allow the Cape metropolitan area to be extended any further after the development of Mitchell’s Plain. All the signs and forms of overconcentration are found in the Cape metropolitan area. Most of the drinking water for the Cape metropolitan area is pumped in from the Boland, elevated roads are being built past the Cape Town harbour—all fine projects, but, in effect, signs of over-concentration in the Cape metropolitan area. I could continue in this vein, especially with regard to our Coloured population which is mainly concentrated in the metropolitan area. Apart from this, the little Boland is an agricultural district and if this line of development proposed by Prof. Page is extended drastically and dramatically, only one thing will happen. More and more of the best agricultural land in the Boland will be lost. I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister that the Department of Planning should take a very firm stand against the pattern of development which will take up more of the best agricultural land in the Boland for housing projects. I have pleaded here before that if there should be a further growth in the population of the Cape metropolitan area, and we intend to expand in a northernly direction, we should much rather look at the district of Gouda, with the old traditional Coloured town of Saron situated in our Boland water plan next to the Voëlvlei Dam. It is on the main transport route to the north, and with regard to electricity supply, the power lines from the north pass by this particular point. Most important, however, is the fact that it is an area in which the poorest agricultural land in the Boland is found. If we consider the proposal by Prof. Page and if it is necessary to expand in a northemly direction, we certainly cannot do what is being proposed here. We shall have to do it in the vicinity of an old traditional Coloured town like Saron and Gouda on the main transport route to the north. I realize, however, that there is no money available at the moment, because we are going through a very difficult stage economically and I do not think the Government is able to create new growth points on a large scale at this point in time. Therefore I want to contend that before we consider the situation any further from a planning point of view, we should much radier emphasize the development axis now coming into being between the Cape metropolitan area and the new metropolitan area planned by the Department of Planning in the vicinity of Saldanha. Between these two metropoles, one of which still has to be formed, but has already been planned down to the smallest detail by the Department of Planning, and the other with all its forms of over-concentration, there is a development axis. The area extends all the way down the coast and includes the poorest land in the Boland. What does one find in this situation? A form of stimulation has already taken place here. There is the Atlantis project which the Government has already started, and of its kind I think it is a very good project. Care should be taken that greater momentum be given to this project as soon as possible.

Mr. Chairman, it is pleasant to speak after the expert in the field of development in the Western Cape. The hon. member for Moorreesburg is already known for making a very thorough study of these matters and therefore I cannot criticize him or even comment on that.

The hon. member for Walmer adopted the standpoint that we should do away with decentralization. His words were: “Scrap restrictions.”

In the Coloured labour preference area.

He said: “Scrap restrictions,” and that we should no longer place restrictions on the influx of Bantu.

No, that is quite wrong.

That is what it boils down to, because he wants to supply the industries with an unlimited number of Bantu workers. Part of Port Elizabeth falls within my constituency. I wonder whether he knows of the problems with squatters being experienced in my constituency. I wonder if he knows that on the other side of Port Elizabeth, in the constituency of the hon. member for Somerset East, there is also a squatter problem. Before proper housing has been created for the Bantu, we should definitely continue with the process of decentralization.

I am not against decentralization if it takes place on a sound basis.

Actually I want to speak on a much more pleasant subject this evening. The hon. member for Benoni also referred to it when he said that the Department of Planning and the Environment had not yet allocated proper areas for recreational purposes. The hon. Deputy Minister made an announcement earlier tonight with regard to the appointment of a commission of inquiry into the future control and administration of Table Mountain, and the Gazette in which it is announced came out today. In this a thorough explanation is given of how the investigations should be conducted, specifying that conservation, control, administration and the general use of Table Mountain should be included. Aspects also covered by the investigation are alternative systems of control, the financial implications, etc. The commission will also have to investigate the possibility of extending the controlled or declared area, the identification of the area, the purchase of private land, the conservation, control, administration and the general use of such an area. Finally the financial implications are to be investigated.

The person appointed to in the one-man commission, Dr. Douglas Hey, is surely the best man for this task in the country. We could not have made a better choice than to get him to tackle this great task. For tourism and outdoor recreation we have to depend increasingly on the assets we have, and these matters from a growing threat to the natural environment and to the preservation of our fauna and flora. It is therefore a very good thing that various departments like the Departments of Water Affairs and of Forestry and the Cape Provincial Department of Nature Conservation have all come to believe that the things they establish with the money received from the public should serve more than one purpose. If they build a dam, for instance, it is also made accessible to the public for recreational purposes.

Overcrowding of any area is dangerous. We see it here on Table Mountain. I just want to quote what Dr. Douglas Hey said on Table Mountain—

That is the danger of overcrowding. How are we to plan such an area properly and to utilize it for posterity? I want to lay down three conditions.

The first thing we have to do is to plan properly. We have to take the human and environmental components into account in our planning. The second point I want to mention is that we should give legal protection to such an area. Some statutory body invested with statutory powers is necessary if one wants to enforce proper control. The third point I want to mention is that funds must be found to be able to do the work required. I think a very good example of proper planning and of leaving something for posterity is our national parks. That was done by a statutory board which has full statutory powers.

When one thinks of Table Mountain, one does not think only of the mountain itself, but of the entire Peninsular mountain range. It is an enormous task to conserve it properly. I do not envy Dr. Hey the work he will have to do to publish a full report within a month about everything that should be done to protect Table Mountain. It is a particularly tricky problem because so many different bodies and persons are concerned with Table Mountain. The Parks and Forests section of the Cape Municipality has a say, the Department of Forestry owns some land areas there, the Provincial Department of Nature Conservation has an interest in it, the National Botanical Gardens at Kirstenbosch has an interest, the military authorities have an interest in Vlaeberg, and there are various private landowners there as well.

Many attempts have been made by these various bodies and persons in the past to start conserving Table Mountain properly. They have also been helped by various private bodies and persons. I think of the work done by the mountain clubs, the University of Cape Town and the Mountain Conservation Board. There have also been voluntary organizations which have spent weekends on the mountain collecting litter. There have been youth organizations which have tried various ways of destroying invader trees by chopping them down. However, the great problem has always been the unorganized nature of this work. Now the Department of Planning and the Environment has come up with this commission. I want to thank the Minister and the Deputy Minister for the fact that they have got so far and that a start will at last be made on this work. I do not want to anticipate the findings of the commission, but I think it will be necessary for the hon. the Minister seriously to consider making the Physical Planning and Utilization of Resources Act, 1975, applicable to the mountain. That Act provides that the Minister may, after consultation with the Minister of Agriculture and the Administrator of the province concerned, by notice in the Gazette reserve any land specified in such notice for specific purposes, one of which is nature reserves. I see no reason why it cannot be done in this case as well, for then it will be possible to take positive action.

Over the years the mountain has greatly deteriorated. It is interesting to think of the Cape Peninsula which was described by early voyagers as being the home of an enormous number of indigenous flowers and plants: There are more varieties concentrated in this one spot than there are in the whole of Great Britain. Nevertheless, the mountain has become almost an exotic mountain today. The crown pine growing on the mountain was imported by Simon van der Stel from Italy. Hakea came from Australia. The Thar goats came from India in 1930. The cluster pine came from France. Nasella grass recently came from South America. The oaks came from Europe, and were imported by Jan van Riebeeck. The squirrels came from North America; the finches and starlings from England; the wattle trees, rooikrans and the gum trees from Australia; and the poplars also from England. Today we have reached the stage where the public in the Peninsula gets excited if someone chops down a pine tree: They have come to think that it is an indigenous tree. I think the time has really come for us to draw up a comprehensive plan and to restore Table Mountain to the state in which Jan van Riebeeck found it, for the sake of posterity.

Mr. Chairman, I hasten to support the hon. member for Humansdorp in his plea for the protection of Table Mountain. I want to say to him that, if he had here in the Cape Province a UP administration as we have in Natal, it would already have been done. In Natal we have the Natal Parks Game and Fish Preservation Board which has already done all the things in Natal which that hon. member asks should now be done here in the Cape—and that in the year 1977, 300 years after the settlement here in the Cape came into being. Now he is asking for the protection of that magnificent mountain outside this building because the Nationalist Government and their lackeys have failed to do their duty to South Africa. Let me say that in Natal under the Natal Provincial Administration, an administration which has been under the control of the UP for many years and was earlier, and since 1910, under the control of the old, original South African Party, the genuine article, there is no need to plead for this sort of thing because it has already been done. In exactly the same way, the hon. member for Moorreesburg, who, as usual, has left the room, pleaded that the regional plan for the West Coast should be implemented. In Natal we have had regional plans for many years, as the hon. the Minister for Planning and the Environment knows, thanks again to the foresight of the UP administration in that province. In that connection I want to pay tribute to the ex-member for South Coast, the hon. Mr. Douglas Mitchell. He had the foresight to prepare the blueprint around which the hon. the Minister has built his whole department, the Department of Planning and the Environment That is the blueprint which Mr. Douglas Mitchell drew up when he was Administrator of Natal, and which gave rise to the Natal Town and Regional Planning Commission. According to that, regional plans, city plans and guide plans were drawn up many years ago. All the plans which the hon. the Minister’s department is drawing up have been drawn up over the years in Natal.

That is how Verulam and other slum areas came into being.

No, Sir, with respect to the hon. the Deputy Minister, to what slum areas is he referring? Is he insulting the Indian population of Verulam? Has the hon. the Deputy Minister even been there and seen the tremendous development which has taken place under a UP administration? The Indian people have had the opportunity to develop themselves in their own area, and this is the sort of answer we receive from the hon. the Deputy Minister where he degenerates and sneers at the development which they have accomplished. What about Isipingo? What about the other Indian areas? The hon. member for Moorreesburg referred to a metropolitan concept and to what he called a development axis on the West Coast. That is what we have in Natal today.

I shall have great pleasure in quoting those words to the people of Verulam.

As the hon. member says, we will have great pleasure in quoting the words of the hon. the Deputy Minister to the people of Verulam, so that they can know what the attitude of this Government is towards that particular development. However, I must not be led astray.

I want to refer to the hon. the Deputy Minister himself, who is an ex-dominee, and to say that I do not believe it is in the spirit of this House that he should refer to “pre-dikantgrappies”, as he did earlier to an hon. member on the other side. It is out of order for him to do so, especially when he was asking about figures and statistics about the unemployed in this country. The hon. the Deputy Minister got up after him and made a speech in which he said that it was the intention of the Department of Statistics today to supply us with projections every three months and to give us the exact figures of unemployment in this country. I want to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister a question across the floor of this House: Can he give us the exact figures of Black Unemployment in the country today?

No.

The hon. the Deputy Minister says that he cannot. Why then does he in his speech say that it is his intention to do so?

Can you give those figures? [Interjections.]

The hon. member for False Bay asks whether I can give those figures. Of course I cannot! The Government is the only body that is in a position to do so, and why are they not giving the figures? Are they aware of the figures? The hon. the Deputy Minister must tell me whether he is aware of the extent of Black unemployment in the country today.

Is the hon. member aware of the fact that only recently I announced in this House that a special amount had been voted to get these figures because they were not available?

Why does the hon. the Deputy Minister wait for 27 years before he asks for that figure?

I have not been in this House for 27 years.

For 27 years we on this side of the House have been asking for these figures and the Government has either neglected to supply the figures or it has deliberately withheld the unemployment figures of Black people in this country. Is that the answer, that they have deliberately withheld them because they do not want the people to know?

I now want to talk about something positive, namely the proclaiming of group areas in Natal. I want to refer to the report of the Department of Planning, and let me hasten to congratulate the department and in particular the new Secretary for the department on this report and to congratulate the Secretary on the work which is being done by his department. In paragraph 84 reference is made to the attention which is being given to enquiries regarding the proclamation of Coloured group areas at Nelspruit, Stanger, Howick and Middleton at Caledon and the group areas demarcation at Harding and Matatiele. For how many years have we read about this? For how many years have we asked questions about this and when can we expect answers? If one looks at Hansard of 2 June 1976 we find there that when he was asked whether a proposed Coloured group area had been declared at Harding, the Minister’s answer was “no”. He then went on to say that there was an investigation and that he hoped to give an answer soon. That investigation has now been going on for nearly 10 years, as it has in the case of Ixopo. On that same day a question was asked about Ixopo. The question was when it was expected that a group area for the Coloureds and Indians in Ixopo would be declared. The answer from the hon. the Minister was that he did not know. To this day we have still heard nothing from him as to what is going to happen to these people. When are these people going to have this insecurity, this whole unnecessary load which is placed on them, removed from them? The hon. the Prime Minister returned from Vienna only ten days ago having failed to sell the policies of the NP Government to the West, and particularly to the United States of America. [Interjections.] One of the main causes of the opposition of Western Governments to South Africa is the implementation of this very Group Areas Act which this hon. Minister has to apply. Yet, for ten years and more these people have continued to sit under the sword of Damocles wondering what is going to happen to them, to their communities and to their towns in Natal.

We have had a plan to take all the Coloured people into three of four large cities in Natal. Two years ago the predecessor of this hon. Minister told us that he had a plan and that he had appointed a committee, an interdepartmental committee, to investigate this. We have not yet had the report of that committee. The hon. the Minister must tell us, and tell those Coloured and Indian communities, what is going to happen to them. Will they be allowed to continue in those communities where some of them have been settled for upwards of 100 years and where they are integrated into the community of the town or the village concerned; where they are part and parcel of it. It is not only of concern to the Coloured and the Indian communities that are affected. It is of concern to the Whites and the Africans, and in fact to all the people in those towns. It is important that they should know.

We now come to another question. I have just spoken about the urban people. What is happening to the rural people? What is happening to Coloured and Indian farmers? Over the years I have asked this hon. Minister’s predecessor whether he was prepared to make provision for agricultural land for Indian and Coloured farmers. The answer every time was “yes”, but I still want to see one hectare of land which has been made available to a Coloured or an Indian farmer. Not one hectare has been made available, but many, many hectares …

You are talking utter nonsense!

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Vryheid knows that what I am saying is true. One only has to look at his own constituency. At New Hanover, in the constituency of the hon. member for Vryheid, how many hectares of land were taken away from Indian farmers in that district? What does the hon. member for Vryheid do about this? He despatches it with an arrogant wave of the hand. How much compensatory land was given to those Indian farmers? Not one single hectare! That is what I asked this hon. Minister’s predecessors over the years. I asked them when they were going to make agricultural land available to the Indian and the Coloured people who are prepared to make their contribution towards the feeding of the millions of people in South Africa—the 25 million people who need food.

There are Coloured and Indian farmers who are prepared to make their contribution, but the Government would not give them the land which will enable them to do it. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South will pardon me if I do not react to his speech. He asked the hon. the Minister certain questions on Natal. I am sure that the hon. the Minister will reply to them in due course.

I want to return to another very important matter, the question of industrial decentralization. It has already been raised in this debate. The question of industrial decentralization has often been debated in this House. It has been the subject of heated debate. In a previous debate the old arguments were advanced again and certain accusations were levelled at the Government, accusations which cannot be left unanswered.

Of course those accusations are based on unfounded arguments. That is because the hon. members concerned do not understand the economic and the historical background of decentralization. The gist of the accusations is that the Government side is abusing the economic process to further certain ideological aims.

That is 100% correct!

Well, listen to what the hon. member for Pinelands says. I want to deal with him at once. I want to quote what he said in a previous debate. I quote (Hansard, 1 April 1977, col. 4890)—

As one back-bencher to another I ask the hon. member for Pinelands whether that is still his standpoint.

Yes.

I want to say at once that we dissociate ourselves from the accusations levelled at this side of the House on the grounds of arguments which I shall advance at a later stage.

You know that it is true.

I shall advance arguments at a later stage to prove that the accusations are false. However, suppose these arguments made no impression on the hon. member and he remained convinced that the economic process is being abused to promote a particular ideological policy or non-economic aims. In that case I would say to the hon. member and his party that they are very ignorant of the basic principles of the policy of decentralization, especially as it is applied in England. I want to ask the hon. member whether he is aware of the Barlow Commission in England which investigated decentralization. They specifically investigated the problem of industrial concentration around urban areas.

What is the title of the book?

I am surprised that the hon. member can express an opinion on industrial decentralization without knowing the book by Trevor Bell, Industrial Decentralization in South Africa.

That is a very old book. [Interjections.]

I quote a passage from the book—

What is the general interest? Apartheid?

We are coming to that. It reads further—

*I contend that the argument advanced by the hon. member for Pinelands, that the economic process is being abused for ideological purposes, is not in line with international investigation done in this regard. I could advance certain economical reasons for decentralization. We all agree on decentralization, but the difference lies in the way in which it takes place and the method which is used. I could advance economic reasons, for example the cyclical connection between the establishment of industries and factories. I could also maintain that the modern economic principle is being implemented, i.e. that in the sector of semi-skilled and unskilled labour, the work should be taken to the labourer, instead of the other way round. I do not want to dwell on this, however.

I want to refer the hon. member to certain historical facts which set the pattern for decentralization and also determined the way in which decentralization should take place. These are realities in South Africa of which the hon. member should take note in order to understand the whole process of decentralization. From these historical facts it will become clear to the hon. member that before the NP came into power and its policy of separate development was implemented, certain patterns had been set according to which decentralization has to take place. I want to refer the hon. member to certain investigations undertaken in this respect.

I want to start with Union. In 1913 legislation on Bantu land was passed. The legislation provided for separate areas for the Black man. The inevitable result was that Black labour was primarily concentrated in certain areas. That is a historical fact. The areas allocated in terms of the 1913 Act were insufficient. In 1916 a Government commission conducted a further investigation into the whole matter and made certain additions to these areas. There was the Native Economic Commission of 1932 which concentrated on and recommended a balanced economic development of the country as a whole. There was the Bantu Trust and Land Act, of which the House is aware, and various reports.

All the reports, commissions and investigations approaching the matter from various angles, came to the same conclusion, viz. that all parts of the Union of that time should form part of a balanced economic growth and that Black labour should be utilized more effectively. Special emphasis was laid on the déconcentration of industries in the urban areas. The argument I want to advance, therefore is, that certain patterns of decentralization had been fixed before the Government came into power and took up the policy of separate development.

In conclusion I want to turn from the past to the future. I want to request the hon. the Minister, apart from what I said, to consider certain aspects of the policy of decentralization. The question arises whether the time has not come for us to consider certain aspects, especially with regard to certain localities. I have a certain measure of sympathy with the representations made by the hon. member for Walmer. There are certain aspects which should receive attention. The restrictions imposed upon the employment of Black labour by certain sectors other than those covered by the Environmental Planning Act should be further investigated. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Bellville will understand my not reacting to his well prepared speech, because I should like to exchange a few ideas on the subject of scientific planning. In fact, right at the beginning of history, man was commanded to fill, subdue and have domination over the earth. In terms of that instruction, man, by employing his mental faculties in a scientific way, had to take apart the transitory reality we are living in, unravel and analyse it in order to expose the limits and penetrate to its constituent elements in order to have domination over the earth to his advantage.

Scientific thinking is not only an unravelling activity, but also a logical, systematizing process so that we may gain planned knowledge and thought. Scientific thinking broadens the scope of knowledge of our naive experience. In this way we must rationalize and plan the transitory reality we are living in, the transitory aspects, nature, cultural matters, man and his ways of life. Scientific thinking broadens our knowledge of the works of the Creator. Obviously, as exponents of the Christian Western civilization, cultural and scientific thinking, we must always remember “The principle of wisdom is fear of the Lord and knowledge of the Almighty is understanding”. We must continually clarify, use and plan the works of the Creator. Moreover, in our earthly life spoilt by sin, we only know His works in part. That is why the sound practice of science is an intellectually fatiguing exercise. We are therefore appreciative of the hard work done by scientists.

Against that background, we realize the necessity for the positive development of science in South Africa as well, particularly as this must and will benefit our country and its people. Everyone of us in this House and every inhabitant of South Africa must be grateful for the Government expenditure on research and development. In my opinion, a government can never spend too much on research and development. I know it is difficult to compare South Africa to other countries in this field, because no country is the same as this one, considering the size of its population, its surface area and its level of civilization. My general impression—I hope I am wrong—is that as far as Government expenditure on research and development is concerned, South Africa compares unfavourably with comparable countries. Fortunately, however, we know that the Government realizes that an investment in research and development pays high dividends in economic and social progress. That is why we must congratulate and support the Government for having continually strived during the past few years to increase the amount of national expenditure on research and development.

All of us regret that the world is experiencing difficult times in the economic field, but we believe that despite this, the Government will not cut research spending. Although it is perhaps true to say that lean years lie ahead for the research institutes, we believe that the research institutes will still receive relatively favourable treatment. As far as South Africa in particular is concerned, the taxpayer must have an open hand, considering our strategic position and the mineral wealth which has been entrusted to our country.

This brings me to the Scientific Advisory Council. I may say without any fear of contradiction that everyone in this House would like to express his gratitude to the Scientific Advisory Council for the indispensable and first-class functions it performs in the interests of South Africa. Due to a lack of time, I want to refer to only a few aspects of the Council’s activities.

I trust that the Scientific Advisory Council will have rapid success in formulating a comprehensive and progressive scientific policy for the Republic of South Africa which is to its own satisfaction. We are grateful for their attempts at formulating a national policy and at arriving at a more quantitative procedure of priority determination. Moreover, we are extremely pleased about the announcement that the indications are in fact there that the recommendations of the Scientific Advisory Council relating to scientific manpower and scientific education at schools, have been favourably received by the authorities concerned.

The National Data Bank for Scientific Research deserves special mention. The National Register of Research Projects for the period 1974-’75 was completed and released in December 1975. As much detailed information as possible on research in both the natural and the human sciences, conducted by statutory bodies, universities, Government departments and in the private sector in the Republic and South West Africa, is included. What is almost incredible, is the alphabetical list of words which takes up 115 pages. A total of 7 410 projects are listed, 5 608 of which relate to the natural sciences and 1 802 to the human sciences. Any student, researcher, or scientist who does not consult this register, will be all the poorer for it.

In conclusion, I just want to refer briefly to the CSIR, because I do not have the time to do justice to the excellent and valuable functions performed by that Council. We appreciate the fact that the CSIR is striving to maintain a healthy balance between basic research and applied research. We politicians are practical people, and that is why practical results, the development and applications of knowledge, as is apparent from the many, many examples mentioned in the annual report, are attracting my attention. The CSIR devotes its attention, not only to the infrastructure for services, for example, the harbour development at Richards Bay, the development of Saldanha Bay and the envisaged nuclear power station at Koeberg, but also to industrial development such as the training and the occupational adjustment of Black workers. Moreover, the CSIR makes its contributions in respect of the promotion of community welfare, for example, the location of industrial areas and townships, pollution by motor vehicles, population dynamics and the training of army officers. Then there is the dissemination of scientific and technical information such as, inter alia, information regarding the utilization of solar energy, the costs of road accidents, etc. The international co-operation of the CSIR makes South Africa indispensable to Africa and the world. The question is whether we always realize that the CSIR saves South Africa millions of rands in foreign exchange every year, and that it could save even more.

By way of summary, it may be said that Government expenditure on research, both basic and applied, must be viewed as an investment in the interests of South Africa, both in the general interest, and in the interest of civilization. The scientific planning which is done, takes place in harmony with the Creator’s commandment that man should subdue and have domination over the earth to His honour.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to thank those hon. members who have participated in an interesting debate. In my reply I shall not go into detail on points that have already been replied to by the hon. the Deputy Minister, because some of the matters lie within the sphere of activities to which he gives attention. However, I can briefly outline the situation if hon. members Specifically ask me about it.

A few of the speakers spoke about statistics. The hon. the Deputy Minister has already replied to that. In addition, scientific planning was broached by way of the hon. member for Benoni’s criticism when he started the debate in that very extraordinary manner. He was severely critical, but without substantiating anything. He simply rattled off a long list of accusations which he did not substantiate or prove. It may be possible, at a later stage, to come back to some of the things he said. Since he has referred to the lack of co-ordination of scientific planning, let me assure him that I shall reply to that later, in view of the fact that the hon. member for Bloemfontein East also referred to planning in a more positive sense.

†The hon. member for Benoni spoke about statistics. He was not too happy about the fact that we do not have statistics in respect of many aspects where we should have statistics. He made the sort of general statement that it does not fulfil all the requirements. I agree that we do not have statistics on everything. However, we have short-term indicators. These short-term indicators are usually available about four to six weeks after the period to which they apply. They compare quite favourably with the short-term indicators that one gets in other countries. If the hon. member will therefore be a little more specific I can let him have further statistics, where he thinks it is not up to scratch. Unfortunately if he makes the general remark that not all the statistics are up to date, he does not help me very much. Nevertheless we are willing to assist him as far as we possibly can.

As far as statistics in regard to the various races is concerned, he himself knows full well that it is a very costly undertaking. Yet we collect them as far as possible. Sometimes we have to deviate from the general principles because we do not have the financial means to venture into statistical series. Another matter that has been raised is unemployment, and I must admit that we do not have reliable figures relating to the unemployment amongst the Bantu. The Department of Labour gives us statistics on the unemployment amongst Indians, Coloureds and Whites. The Department of Bantu Administration gives us the statistics in regard to the Bantu. We do not consider the statistics on Bantu unemployment to be up to scratch, as the hon. member put it. We concede that this is not right and that it leaves much to be desired.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister where he gets the statistics regarding Bantu unemployment from?

The only department that at present gathers statistics about that is the Department of Bantu Administration and Development.

Where do they get if and for which areas?

They have their labour bureaux and they have other machinery. The hon. member must put that question to the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. We get the statistics from him.

In any case we realize that it is impossible in view of the general set-up of Bantu employment. We concede that you cannot rely on these figures precisely. That is why we intend making a start on getting statistics in a more scientific fashion, for instance by starting with about 10 000 Bantu households in September. The money has been allocated to us. I think after that we might be able to supply hon. members with better statistics in regard to Bantu unemployment.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he can give us the latest statistics available to him and, secondly, whether he can tell us whether he receives any information from the Unemployment Insurance Commissioner regarding unemployed Bantu?

The statistics do not readily come to mind, but it is about 600 000 to 700 000. That is only a guess. I have not got any statistics from the Unemployment Insurance Commissioner. It is not readily available, but I can get it for the hon. member.

Mr. Chairman, I tried to get statistics on this from the various departments …

Order! The hon. member must ask a question.

Mr. Chairman, I am asking a question. The hon. the Minister says that he has statistics which are unsatisfactory. But are there any statistics at all?

There are statistics, but I concede that these statistics should not be relied on completely. I can get the statistics for the hon. member if he really wants them.

*Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Kuruman talked about a regional guide-plan for region 18. Sishen is not actually region 18. The idea is to get a regional plan for the mineralized region there. The guide-plan will be drafted on a non-statutory basis. We have already made great strides with that guide-plan and we feel that if we have to begin again and do it on a statutory basis, it would involve tremendous costs, something we feel we can eliminate if the bodies working on the guide-plan at the moment can continue their work. We feel this guide-plan is important and that it must be finalized. Rapid development is taking place there and people must know which way to turn. Complaints are continually being received, because planning is not taking place fast enough. If we go too fast, however, then we cannot put all our plans into effect because money is not always available. In any event, we shall have to do some quick thinking about the planning of the area. We shall have to reply to questions which are raised about it. As regards Sishen, which is developing rapidly, the question is: What are the fundamental elements, what is the infrastructure? As the hon. member has indicated, we shall also have to work out how that area is to link up with the homelands around it. Placing people from the homelands in towns in that area is an important matter. It is our policy that the Bantu should be withdrawn from White areas if they can easily be accommodated in neighbouring homelands and still make their contribution to the economy of the border industries.

The hon. member for Bryanston referred again to group areas and unemployment. That is perfectly correct. There have been complaints all along about the Garment Workers’ Union, the problems we have with those people and about the fact that we are so cruelly implementing section 3 of the Environment Planning Act that we shall cause tremendous unemployment. In reality only a few thousand people are involved in this. If there are 2 000 or 3 000 people involved, then it is a lot. We decided as early as last year to talk to the workers and their representatives to see whether we could not accommodate these people in some way in these times we are living in, despite the fact that our approach is based on some very sound principles when it comes to implementing this Act, provided they put their affairs in order and regulate them on a sound footing. The hon. member and other hon. members also spoke about group areas.

The hon. member for King William’s Town spoke about 90 000 Bantu whom we had turned away over the years and who were now unemployed. As far as I am concerned, they are not unemployed. The hon. member has no proof that they are unemployed. At the same time I want to point out that we had permitted 400 000 Bantu to work in the metropolitan areas and that the rest of them normally about one-fifth, go mainly to the decentralized areas. The hon. member has no proof that they are unemployed. One should not, after all, regard a matter so completely onesidedly. Did he think they had simply vanished into thin air and now found themselves unemployed? That is not true.

As far as all that is concerned, I do feel I should at least say something about group areas. Let us understand each other well. The group areas legislation is very complex. I began to study it last year and found that there were many parts of the Act I myself would like to give a little more attention to and which will have to be looked at thoroughly at this stage, particularly since the underlying idea in this legislation involves the principle of the separation of residential areas. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. Where it can go wrong, is where people have to be separated by force and where this involves injustice.

As far as I am concerned, this is the whole point of the South African situation. It is wrong if people are separated by force, if they are not consulted in any way and if this involves injustice. It can never form the basis the long-term operation of this Act. Secondly I want to say that at no stage did the Erika Theron Commission, which most certainly went through the group areas legislation with a fine-tooth comb, say that the principle of the Act should be repealed. Nowhere was it stated that the Act should be repealed. It was, in fact, pointed out that certain sections of the Act should be amended. We are already making a start by amending some of those sections in the light of prevailing circumstances and in the light of demands which have been made on us now that many of those people, who at one time were so ensnared in confusion that we were obliged to untangle them from it, have been so uplifted that they are acceptable and may be permitted to obtain opportunities to bring them to the stage where they can do their share, together with other ethnic groups, in production in South Africa for the safeguarding of its economy. As far as the Group Areas Act is concerned, there should, in the second place, be as much consensus as possible. I appointed a departmental committee in the last four months but it took up a great deal of time to investigate everything in the various departments where there were bottlenecks, where things were going badly with negotiations and with the consultation of the people involved, and to bring me proposals on how we could shorten these group areas procedures and apply them more fairly.

Hon. members know what some of the consequences of this were. We accepted some of those principles in advance and they have been implemented in the last two or three years in order to take those people who are affected by group areas along with us from the outset, to consult them, to discuss matters with them, to thrash out matters jointly with them and to convince them of the justness and necessity of the decisions. By so doing, there need be no suspicion or ignorance, because many of these things arise as a result of ignorance. The hon. the Deputy Minister said that two members had been appointed to the Group Areas Board, one for Coloureds and one for Indians. But they are not the only ones who are involved in this. When decisions are taken about group areas, the local authority involved is consulted and we consult the local authority committees from the outset. We consult the member of the CRC or the member of the Indian Council and we take these people along with us from the outset. These changes are being introduced gradually and they indicate that we are prepared to give those people the opportunity they ought to have whenever a decision is made about their welfare. The Group Areas Act, and these basic principles I have outlined, remain the basis, and the Act together with its main principles will remain unchanged. The Government has no intention of repealing the Act. I did say, however, that I had appointed a committee which will go into all the procedures. They will have to eliminate the bottlenecks; they will have to try to achieve better consensus between the people involved. In one case I noted that there were 35 bodies that had to be consulted. That demands co-ordination. The hon. member asked where the co-ordination was. Co-ordination is not always such an easy task if one wants to consult everyone. Although earlier it took 60 weeks to complete group areas proclamations, eventually, we came to the conclusion that we could design procedures which, make it possible for this to be shortened by a quarter or perhaps even more. But there are financial implications involved. When the Community Development Act is implemented, the Department of Community Development will have to bear the burden of tremendous financial obligations. This is not always possible and could cause delays.

I want to conclude for this evening by saying that we are trying to consider every eventuality, taking into account principles that are recognized world-wide, although there is no legislation and in which the word apartheid is mentioned. We are trying, with the greatest measure of fairness, to make this legislation work in the future.