Mr. Chairman, I think it would perhaps be appropriate if, at this stage, I provided the hon. members with replies, not on the particulars of their representations, but on matters of general importance, matters which were repeatedly raised and which involved both policy and principle.

Before doing so, however, I think it is necessary—I am saying this with sorrow, because one does not like becoming involved in disputes with major organizations dealing with the forming of public opinion—to draw the attention of this Committee to articles which appeared last Sunday in the Sunday Times in regard to housing in general and squatters in particular. Hon. members will recall that we passed a new Bill on squatters in this House a few weeks ago, and subsequently in the Other Place. In fact, the Third Reading of the measure was disposed of in the Other Place on 9 June. Last Sunday—that is, 20 June, 11 days after the Bill had been approved by the Senate—two articles appeared in the Sunday Times. One article was written by Miss Reinhardt, a brilliant journalist. This was, as the English say, a “tear-jerker” on the demolition of a squatter settlement. The caption to the article was “In tears of shame”. On the front page of the magazine section of the Sunday Times another article appeared—“Oh, what a squalid deal for squatters”. In the first place I want to draw attention to the fact that these two articles appeared at a time when there were riots and unrest in some of the non-White residential areas in South Africa. The Coloured residential areas, on the other hand, were quiet and peaceful. As I shall indicate at a later stage, these articles, at a time such as we are now experiencing, are dangerous, and they are looking for trouble. It is all the more significant to me that the two articles both appeared long after the events to which they refer. They are not relevant in the sense which one expects newspaper comment to be relevant.

They are behind the times!

The Act was passed in the Senate on—listen carefully now—the ninth of this month, and on the 20th the article appeared under the caption “Oh, what a squalid deal for squatters”. It was jointly written by David Barrett and Alf Wannenberg and they referred time and again to legislation which, according to them, was still before Parliament. This was 11 days after it had already been passed. These are ostensible “authorities” who have to inform the people of what is wrong with the Squatters Act and the squatting conditions in South Africa, and 11 days after the Act had been piloted through the Senate they did not even know that the Act had been passed. They referred to an Act which was “before Parliament”. The article teems with errors throughout. Miss Reinhardt speaks of her tears when she saw how a squatters’ settlement was being demolished. Sir, my department informs me that no squatters’ settlement has been demolished during the past eight to nine weeks. She, however, at this period of unrest in the residential areas, writes an article professing that that had happened that same day, or the day before. The last possible occasion on which she could have experienced these things, if she did in fact experience them, was eight or nine weeks ago. The worst aspect is that the article of the two collaborators in particular, apart from the fact that they did not even know that this measure was already law and thought that it was still before Parliament, teems with one inaccuracy after another. Actually, these are worse than inaccuracies. Let me mention a few examples. Sir, during the discussions in this House I pointed out very clearly that we had conducted a comprehensive census of squatters in 1974. According to our calculations there were approximately 120 000 squatters, just over 20 000 families. I said this in order to correct the hon. member for Pinelands. He alleged that there were a quarter of a million squatters. The article referred to the figures which we furnished, but also furnished the figures of the hon. member for Pinelands as though it was more accurate and as though it should be the acceptable figure, despite the fact that there had been a census and that we had furnished official and reliable figures. Why did the Sunday Times do this, Sir? Referring to the squatters they said—

Surely this is completely untrue. How do they come by this information? The fact of the matter is that the number of squatters is diminishing. The fact of the matter is that since November 1974, the date on which we froze the matter, we have succeeded in re-accommodating 3 000 squatters in the Cape Peninsula in decent houses. Nevertheless this lie, this untruth, is told, although I furnished the facts in the Senate and publicity was given to them. They make this statement in the article—

What utter nonsense! We are engaged in major housing programmes which I set out time and again in this House and in regard to which I furnished the Senate with the latest information. This year new houses to the value of R35 million are being built in Mitchells’ Plain, Cape Town, and at other places. This programme has been in progress for all of three years, but the Sunday Times comes forward with the unmitigated untruth that—

Here it is again. There was no “Bill before Parliament” on the 20th of the month. What are the facts? The Government undertook to rehouse all the squatters living in shanties that had been marked up to November 1974, and were therefore only taking steps against those who became squatters again after 15 November 1974, after they had been warned that it would not be permitted and that their shanties would be demolished. There is no question of hostility. We gave the undertaking that the squatters who were living in marked shanties could continue to live there until we were able to rehouse them. Only then would the shanties be demolished. I want to emphasize that the Bill in question had by that time already been dealt with both in this House as well as in the Other Place. Nevertheless, repeated reference was made to “the impression that existing squatters huts will be demolished”.

The newspaper alleged this despite the fact that we discussed the matter for days in the two Houses of Parliament and made it clear that “the existing squatters’ shacks will not be demolished”. What must one do? One feels absolutely helpless if one witnesses such conduct on the part of a major newspaper which exercises an influence on the thinking of thousands of people. I want to quote further—

What did I actually indicate? I indicated that 15 000 houses would be built or would be under construction during the current year, over and above the normal provision of housing. I announced special financial plans to make this possible. The Sunday Times nevertheless publishes this untruth. I pointed out that the hon. the Prime Minister had announced the construction of an additional 4 700 houses at Mitchell’s Plain. I announced that we hoped, with our new finance and construction plan, to build 4 500 additional houses, and that we were awaiting tenders in this regard. We also announced that we were going to build an additional 4 000 houses just for squatters. We announced further that an attempt would be made to build an additional 1 200 houses in Atlantis by way of the finance and construction method. We announced that we were also planning a further 1 000 houses in Johannesburg according to the finance and construction method. What is at issue, therefore, is an additional 15 400 houses, and not simply 15 400 new houses for the entire year, as the Sunday Times alleged.

Let us consider the facts. On 31 March 1977 24 000 houses will have been completed or will be under construction. Over and above these houses, tenders will be called for under the finance and construction scheme—work in this regard is already in progress—as follows: Cape Town Municipality, 6 500; Divisional Council of the Cape at Atlantis, 1 200; for squatter 2 000; in Johannesburg, 1 000. I have already furnished these figures; I am simply repeating them now. If all these tenders succeed, it means that on 31 March 1977 a total of 34 700 houses for Coloureds will be under construction. How dare a newspaper which has to shape public opinion, tell the people such a lie while these facts are available for them in the records of the House of Assembly and also in the records of the Other Place?

The newspapers are full of the Erika Theron Commission report. What does this report have to say in this regard? Our programming has been accepted by the Theron Commission. After thorough consideration the Theron Commission accepted it as fair and just, i.e. that 164 802 houses will have been built by 1980, if the finance can be appropriated. These houses will accommodate approximately 824 010 people, a third of the total Coloured population. This will be sufficient to wipe out the entire backlog. That is what our programming is aimed at, the Theron Commission accepts it and everything now depends on the one unknown factor: Whether the money will be available. The two collaborators also have the following to say in the Sunday Times—

According to them this is a matter of policy for squatters under the present circumstances. How many times did I not say in this House and the Other Place that these emergency camps are being planned only for real emergencies, as in a time of war or in a time of extreme depression when the normal programme has to be terminated and steps taken so that the Morokas of the previous war can be prevented. It was not the Government’s plan to accommodate the present squatters in such camps. Nevertheless this untruth is proclaimed. They also referred here to repeated attempts, to “periodic efforts by the authorities to bulldoze shanties”.

The fact of the matter is that only shanties which have been erected since the end of 1974 will be demolished. I am now asking all fair-minded members on both sides of this House: Does South Africa deserve this? Should I ask what the motive behind it is? I should not like to do so, for one can only arrive at one of two conclusions. One is that it is one of the most inefficient newspapers in South Africa. Perhaps this article was written weeks ago, while the matter was being discussed here in Parliament, and was then through negligence, inefficiency and incompetence, published in the newspaper almost two weeks after the debate had ended. They then published it at a time at which it simply had to have an inflammatory effect on the circumstances then prevailing in South Africa. The other is that they might have withheld it deliberately, so that it had to appear at this very juncture? If this is the case, then it was not merely as a result of incompetence, but also of wilfulness. How else does it happen that two articles appear on the same day, the one dealing with events which occurred 11 days previously, and the other with events which occurred two months previously? What does it all mean? What are we dealing with here in South Africa? We do not complain if these people criticize us as a Government. The Press and the public have the right to criticize the Government. If this kind of action is taken, however, we are surely entitled to ask whether they are opposed to the Government or whether they are opposed to South Africa.

I think it is time I addressed a personal word to the editor of the Sunday Times, a person who is sitting anonymously in his tower, who is responsible to no one and who can allow this kind of thing to happen. I know Mr. Tertius Myburg, and I have always regarded him as a honourable man. I can only assume that he was unaware of these things which appeared in his newspaper and was also unaware of how and under what circumstances they appeared. However, he, as editor, is responsible for these things, and I am now looking forward to the next edition of the Sunday Times. The value and the South Africanism of that newspaper will be judged by the people according to how frankly he is going to rectify these matters. He shall have to explain how such a nonsensical, ill-considered and dangerous thing could have appeared in a newspaper which claims to be a national institution in South Africa. I shall leave it at that for the present. I am sorry if I became a little worked up about this matter, but the situation is really going to far now, particularly when one is dealing, in a time of crisis, with the dishing-up of old news which, to crown it all, is riddled with lies.

With reference to the speech made by the hon. member for Green Point and also the speeches of other hon. members, I wish to express my appreciation once again for the level on which this debate was conducted. This extremely important matter, that of community development deals with the quality of the lives of all the population groups in South Africa. I want to thank the hon. member for Green Point in particular for his reasoned and moderate contribution, a contribution which was of value to all of us. Other hon. members raised the same matter as that hon. member did, and therefore I regard it as a matter of general principle. The hon. member asked whether we should not reconsider the possibility of a site-and-service system, to afford people an opportunity in that way of providing themselves with some kind of shelter and then using that as a starting point for the provision of proper housing. I have already made it clear under the previous Vote, that this cannot be done as long as this Government is in power, except if an extreme emergency develops. The Government does not want to build slums. It is very interesting to see that, after having adopted a firm attitude in opposition to anything of this nature over the years, and particularly now with the squatter legislation. We received a book from the UNO, World Housing Survey for 1974, which was compiled by order of the Secretary to the UNO by his department for economic and social matters. It is an extremely informative book and covers the problem of slums and of housing throughout the entire world. It was compiled by international experts and is therefore probably one of the most authoritative documents on the question which one can hope to find. Since we have had the book in our possession for about a week, and after we had passed the squatter legislation, it is interesting to note that the UNO confirms the standpoint of the Government of South Africa in principle, and indeed, in detail as well. I hope my hon. friends will take note of this. I want to illustrate what happens if one allows uncontrolled urbanization, and then tries despairingly to solve the problems created in this way as they arise under those uncontrolled circumstances. I want to quote a few examples of what happens. This is very interesting. The report states—

Strangely enough, they have a footnote here which states: “South Africa is excluded in these estimates”. I continue—

In Ethiopia the position is as follows—

Let us now consider the position in one of the richest countries in Africa, Nigeria, where urbanization is being allowed without control, without the checks and balances which this Government is trying to apply.

There we find the following—

As far as Zambia is concerned, we find the following—

Sir, so I can continue throughout the world, but I just want to mention one other case, and this is probably one of the finest cities I have ever seen in my life, viz. Rio de Janeiro in Brazil. And here one sees what uncontrolled urbanization, the policy of the PRP, brings in its wake … [Interjections.] No, do not run away. It says—

I have seen these things. I have seen those Favolas, and they are not a pretty sight. Nine years ago the position was as follows—

This is the new, beautiful capital of Brazil—

But, Sir, what is most significant of all—I have kept this for last—is the comment of these, probably the most eminent authorities in the world. Why, they ask, is this the case? And I want my hon. friends of the PRP to listen attentively. My good friend, the hon. member for Green Point, may also pay heed to this. This is the conclusion they arrived at—

Sir, I cannot sum up the policy of the NP Government and of the Department of Community Development better than is done in these few words. I cannot imagine any greater irresponsibility than that we should allow the urbanization process in South Africa to take place without any control, and then afterwards try to eliminate the problems which are being created through the lack of order. Sir, we will never make it. Experience in South Africa has already demonstrated this, and the attempts to eliminate the backlog are going to cost us more, perhaps twice as much, than tackling this problem under controlled circumstances in a positive way and building decent houses, as they become necessary, for the equitable needs of the population and of the city in question. This is the policy of this Department and of the Government. We abide by that, and I just hope that this information which I have now quoted here, and the facts which I have now furnished, will help all of us, on both sides of this House, to reflect with greater clarity and responsibility on this tremendous problem.

Another matter which was raised fairly generally and which received attention was the question of permit control under the Group Areas Act, particularly with regard to entertainments and theatres. Criticism was levelled at the application of the Act. This Act is being administered—this specific aspect of the Act—in terms of a decision approved by the Cabinet after the Nico Malan was thrown open to non-Whites.

This decision, to sum it up briefly, means that it remains the endeavour of the Government to create for its own entertaining and recreational facilities in its own areas for each community in South Africa. The ideal situation would be to create equal facilities for entertainment in the separate residential areas, and if there were then, in those residential areas, a community which could support such amenities, in other words if there were enough progressive and well-off people in each community, to the extent required for this purpose, if there were enough entertainment-conscious people to support these things. But the Government realizes that this cannot happen overnight; that is why the Government has said that although it remains the ideal, as it has been stated, i.e. that each community should have its own entertainment facilities, for example civic centres and theatres, it is not the intention of the Government to deprive any members of the South African community of the right to participate in White entertainment which constitutes true cultural value, in suitable cases. That is why the permit system has been introduced, and we are doing our best to administer the system in that light. So, for example, the Cabinet has prescribed that where a performance constituting cultural value is presented once, in other words when it cannot be repeated, a permit has to be granted to enable all who want to attend the performance to do so. However, where a performance is repeated, opportunities have to be created for all races to attend this performance, either as separate audiences, or as a collective audience on certain occasions. I could go into the matter further, but I want to give hon. members the assurance that it is a policy which is based on the views of this side of the House that it is better for people to experience their entertainment separately.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister while he is dealing with this question, to explain the reason why the Government does not permit the proprietor or the owner of a theatre or a restaurant to decide on his clientele?

I shall deal with that question in the course of my speech. I want to assure hon. members that the Government adopts a sympathetic approach to this question and does not want to stop people from doing this, nor does it want to begrudge them opportunities of cultural value. The Government does not want to prohibit other persons from attending such performances. In practice the application of this policy has caused major problems. The problems arose from the ad hoc nature of the administration. The hon. member for Green Point put it very well, viz. that for virtually every case an ad hoc decision is taken and the merits of each case is considered in detail. People then tend, as soon as such an ad hoc decision has been taken, to say that a precedent has been created and that the same should be done in respect of every similar case, apart from the merits of the case. Every time one takes such a decision it causes a public stir and causes questions and doubts to arise. I find it exceptionally difficult to administer these measures on an ad hoc basis. That is why I discussed the matter with the hon. the Prime Minister, and shortly before his departure he told me that as soon as the Cabinet met in Pretoria again the matter would be referred to the Cabinet Committee, which consists of the hon. the Ministers who have an interest in this matter, to see whether the application of the policy—I think that the policy is correct—can be made more streamlined and where clearly set-out principles can be laid down. This ought to enable everyone involved in this to know in advance what they may do and what they may not do, and what is in accordance with Government policy and what not.

Andries’s principles or your principles?

It is not Andries’s principles or my principles which are at issue here; it is the principles of the Government. [Interjections.] This is precisely what will happen, as I explained to hon. members. I do not want to repeat it. I have summarized it carefully, and hon. members can give further consideration to it. We are all waiting with interest for what is going to develop from this.

The hon. member put a question to me, and this question links up with the proposal which he made. In the old days I might perhaps have felt it was a good proposal, viz. whether we should not leave it to municipalities or, as the hon. member proposed this morning, to the theatre owners, as a local option. To a certain extent we are already leaving these matters to the theatre owners. When we decide that certain evenings can be used for the White group and certain evenings for another group we are already leaving it to them to that extent. With the experience which I have acquired, and the experience which my colleagues have also acquired, in conjunction with me, of this ad hoc administration, from one central point, namely that of the Government, I can inform hon. members that if we want an administration which is decentralized, still on an ad hoc basis, and local authorities will be able to decide who should attend the theatres, we are going to have absolute chaos. I am convinced of that from my own experience, for the City Council of Cape Town will adopt a different standpoint in regard to many matters than that of Pretoria. The Durban city council, on the other hand, will in many respects adopt a different standpoint to the one adopted by the Cape Town city council.

What is wrong with that?

Then one is going to have nothing but confusion. If a famous artist comes to South Africa—and many of the overseas artists do not know about the position here as far as audiences are concerned—that artist must be told that we are not able to have him because it is determined by an ad hoc decision by various municipalities. The same applies to theatres. I quite like the idea, and I wish one could do it. However, the theatre owners have their own opinions on these matters. It would create complete confusion, disunity and uncertainty, and I want to emphasize the point again that the experience we have acquired requires that we eliminate the greatest possible degrees of uncertainty and enable people to plan their business and entertainment according to clearly laid down norms, which the hon. the Prime Minister now wants us to try to formulate as a Cabinet Committee.

And restaurants?

What about the restaurants?

I asked whether a theatre or restaurant proprietor should not be allowed to decide upon his clientele. At the moment they need permits, as laid down in section 25 of the Act.

I think the Cabinet Committee can go into the laying down of norms, the laying down of general principles, but we cannot permit this to be continued on an ad hoc basis, because it causes confusion and distress to many people who will be unaware of what their rights are and what they are permitted to do or not do. I am sorry, but I cannot agree with what the hon. member wants.

*I said that I wanted to deal with a few matters of general importance, matters which aroused the interest of various hon. members. I have now done so, and I shall now listen attentively to the rest of the discussions. I hope the discussion will continue on the exceptionally high level which has applied up to now. I shall then, at a later stage, reply in detail to the discussions.

Mr. Chairman, to my mind there is nothing more beautiful than a master plying his trade in an able and honest manner. That is what we experienced a moment ago when the hon. the Minister put his case and explained certain things to us.

On the other hand I would like to say, Sir, that if you have never yet seen a laughing jackass as yet, you need not go very far. We had an example in certain members of the PRP who sat there laughing cynically while the hon. the Minister was dealing with a very serious matter, i.e. that of exposing the false propaganda of certain newspapers. It would appear that the hon. members of the PRP agree with the propaganda of this newspaper.

Show me a man’s handiwork and I will tell you what kind of man he is. I want to congratulate the Secretary of Community Development on and thank him for this very neat and good report he compiled on the activities of the department. The importance of the provision of housing cannot be overemphasized, especially in these difficult times. It is above all the self-providing middleman who is hit the hardest in these difficult times in which we are living. The emphasis still falls on the provision of proper housing while the emphasis has not so far fallen to any great extent on more effective housing. To me it was gratifying news when the commission of inquiry into housing matters was appointed during the parliamentary session last year. This commission received very wide terms of reference and their activities extend over a very wide field. It was a great step in the right direction, in truth a gratifying approach. The commission’s terms of reference included various subjects. In the first place there was the issue of excessively luxurious housing, and in this regard I should like to quote from the report of the commission. On page 4 reference is made to—

The terms of reference of the commission also include the question of capital provision as well as the issue of unrealistic erf sizes. On page 4 of the report reference is made in regard to—

The fourth important matter that is inquired into is the ownership of land by township developers and speculators, and the fifth, the desirability or otherwise of the forming of more development companies by building societies and also their sphere of operation. I should also like to add a few further matters. In the first instance there is the Rent Act which does create some problems. The commission should also inquire into this Rent Act.

Then there is also the issue of two kitchens. There are people who have, for example, built houses on small holdings. The house is scientifically planned in such a way that two families can live in that house. In this regard I am thinking in particular of elderly people. We cannot always put elderly people under the protection of the State. When such people make provision themselves for the future—for the day when they grow old and have to retire—it would be a good thing if they could live in a flat which is connected to the main building. I think that such houses should therefore, be provided with two kitchens so that the elderly people can also be self-supporting.

There is also the question of roof construction. Flat-roof construction is becoming more popular. Of course, the flat-roofed house lends itself to a greater diversity of designs. It is also easily adaptable to certain architectural styles. Apart from the aesthetic value of such buildings, it is also cheaper to erect flat-roofed houses. However, one is saddled with the serious problem that flat roofs usually leak—I should almost say without exception. It is a fact that very heavy demands are made on insurance companies as a result of leaking roofs. I am told that the claims even amount to as much as R40 million per year.

However, a screw has been developed—I have such a screw in my hand—which I should like to call the “roof-leak wonder”. I am not promoting this screw for the sake of persons who developed it or for the sake of any particular firm involved in its manufacture, I am doing so because it is important that the thousands of people who daily experience the problem of leaking roofs should know that there is a solution to their problem. I am also introducing it for the sake of those who are interested in erecting flat-roofed houses for themselves. Everybody interested in something like this can now know that it is possible as a result of the new roof screw. The advantages of the new screw is contained in the fact that, if the timber framework of the roof is perfect, the screw will eliminate all roof leaks. The screw’s holding power in the roof is three times greater than that of the conventional roof screw. By using this new screw time and labour can be saved. Roof sheets are so well stabilized and sealed that wastage of material in the form of double side joints and wooden joint fasteners with sealing strips can be eliminated completely. Work finished in a professional manner can be done with unskilled labour. Roofs that have been leaking for years can be quickly, completely and permanently repaired at very little cost.

I should like to recommend that the commission of inquiry also give attention to uniformity of building styles. There are certain housing projects in our country that will be used as evidence against the present generation because we have been responsible for the fact that the houses in the housing projects concerned were all erected in more or less the same architectural style. We have already moved away from that to a great extent, but I think it is necessary that we give further attention to a greater degree of variation in building styles within the same housing project. In this regard I am thinking, for example, of the replanning of and the advanced stage in which the old Lady Selbourne—present known as Suiderberg—is at this point of time. I should definitely like to see a greater variation of building styles there. I therefore think that the commission of inquiry should also pay attention to this matter.

I now come to another issue which definitely demands attention. I believe that since pressure is being exerted on the Community Development Board for the provision of more funds for the erection of houses for the aged, the depopulation of the rural areas should also be inquired into, because in some urban towns many houses which could be used for this purpose are standing empty. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I hope that the hon. member for Hercules will forgive me for not reacting on his speech. I should like to return to a few matters raised by the hon. the Minister. The hon. the Minister rejected our proposals in regard to sites and service schemes, but I should like to remind him that the hon. member for Green Point repeatedly stated that a sites and service scheme could only lead to slum conditions in the event of a lack of administrative control as happened in the case of Elsies River.

In fact, from the facts which the hon. the Minister mentioned in regard to the report, it is quite clear that such a scheme failed because of a lack of administrative following-through. However, when such a scheme forms part of an urbanization scheme in which the administration does follow through, it is not a failure. The other point which I would like to return to is the open rejection of the hon. the Minister of the recommendation contained in the Theron Commission’s report in respect of the communal use of halls and theatres. What the hon. the Minister said here today is an outright rejection of that, Sir. It must come as a shock and a disappointment to many. There it is quite clearly recommended that there should be less interference by the Government and in fact that the matter should be left to the owners or the local authorities on the one hand and the producers on the other. I can only say to the hon. the Minister that whatever principle he is deciding on will lead to a continuous ad hoc state of affairs.

Mr. Chairman, I want to return to the important matter of rent control. I want to say again to the hon. the Minister that several members on this side of the House represent constituencies where most of the flats are under rent control. This is the case in my constituency, in the constituency of Durban Point and in others. The tenants there are mostly elderly people who are pensioners or alternatively live on fixed incomes. Instead of living a secure and contented life, these people are constantly worrying about their future. Their lives are, in fact, being terrorized by thoughts such as: When will the next increase be? How much will the arrear payments be? What will the effect be as a result of increasing rates? What will be the effects of increasing salaries to the staff?

Theoretically, Sir, and this is my point, the Rents Act attempts to eliminate the unnecessary harassing of tenants as a result of applications by landlords. A landlord can, for example, only apply 12 months after a previous determination. Similarly, there is a stipulation that arrear payments cannot be enforced for a period longer than six months. In spite of all these and other restrictions these tenants find themselves with a sword of Damocles constantly hanging over their heads. They are faced with situations where arrear payments are being demanded for periods longer than what is stipulated in the Rents Act. The reason for this is that the system is breaking down administratively. The Rent Board just cannot cope with all the applications. The hon. the Minister should realize that the situation has in certain areas become hopeless and that urgent action is necessary.

I want to illustrate this to the House by referring to a particular case, not that I think that the hon. the Minister can do anything about it. This is a case that I have taken up with his predecessor and it demonstrates clearly the weaknesses that exist at the present moment. In July 1974 there was an application for a rent increase in the case of a certain block of flats in my constituency with effect from 1 September 1974. The application was, as usually is the case, for a ridiculous amount. This of course is part of the game. It is to try to scare the daylights out of the tenants. The hearing was held in November and a determination was made that there would be an increase from 1 September. The owner felt aggrieved and as a result of this he lodged an appeal and the matter was referred to the Rent Control Board.

Let me quote to you the chronological sequence of these events from a letter I received from the hon. the Minister’s predecessor. This will indicate the weakness of the system and how little the assurances and restrictions of the Rents Act really mean. I quote from his letter—

I read a few lines further on in the letter—

Now, Sir, this was already seven months after 1 September. The period involved was already longer than the six months allowed in respect of arrear payments. We then find that the Rent Control Board upheld the recommendation of the regional board. In other words, there was not a further increase over and above that which was awarded in November. The owner was, in other words, unsuccessful. Nevertheless, the rentals had to be increased with effect from 1 September 1974. The necessary orders were transmitted to the lessees on 11 June 1975 or, to quote the hon. the Minister’s own words, “nine months and 11 days after the effective date of the increases”. The lessees were now faced with arrear payments of 10 months. In the interim period they already in terms of other statutory provisions had to absorb normal increases in rates and in wages. On 30 June 1975, the very day when they therefore had to pay 10 months in arrears, they were yet again handed an application by the owners for a further increase from 1 September 1975. In other words, they live there for a whole year without knowing what is going to happen to them. It was quite clear to me that the provisions of the Rents Act were not being complied with. I took this matter up with the hon. the Minister’s predecessor, and this was confirmed by him. Let me quote what he said—

That was in respect of one flat.

He went on to say, very kindly—

That, of course, refers to the six months’ arrear payments—

This happened as a result of administrative delays. It was the result of the rent board’s erring in a decision it took. The hon. the Minister also stated that the rent board erred. How can these people then go to the Supreme Court? One cannot expect the people living in the building concerned to take this matter to the Supreme Court. As is also indicated in this letter, it will be unreasonable to say that it was the fault of the lessor. I concede that he has every right to do so. The trouble came about as a result of the rent board’s inability to deal quickly with the matter concerned. Finally, I should like to quote the last paragraph because this clearly illustrates the dilemma of the tenants as well as the dilemma of the rent control board. I quote—

I do not know whether the last words should not have been “could have been morally right”. The hon. the Minister should tell us what the reasons are for these administrative delays. Has the time not come that there should be more regional rent boards? Is there a shortage of typists or what is the reason? Something must be done. The present situation cannot be allowed to continue. I have approached the problem from a different angle in the sense that the present system cannot continue to work in this way. Therefore I ask that we should have a look at the complete rent control board system and its administration.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Durban Central referred to delays and an accumulation of work at rent boards. Although we did come across exceptional cases in the past, one finds that since the new Act came into operation last year, hundreds of applications for increases have been submitted by owners, and obviously rental boards have scarcely been able to keep up with the flood of work which this has entailed. Obviously delays have also been experienced in the processing of those applications due to this influx of work.

I believe that this situation at the rent boards will also be rectified. However, the fact remains that the rent board plays a very important role by trying to find the golden mean between the highest rent which the landlord wants and the lowest rent which the tenant is prepared to pay. If, during the process, measures are included in the legislation which may be considered subjective, it is done in order to find the golden mean which will determine a reasonable rental which will be fair to both the lessor and the lessee. As far as rent and the offences which are committed under leases are concerned, I just want to return for one moment to a speech which the hon. member for Johannesburg North made here yesterday.

The hon. member referred in particular to unfair practices and offences which are committed by certain exploitive owners who let their properties. However, the hon. member is a member of that party that simply wants to criticize everything at all times. However, I want to mention a certain example here. I have here a letter which is dated 11 June 1976. It comes from Anglo American Property Services (Pty.) Ltd. The chairman of the board of directors of this company is Mr. G. H. Waddell. He is the MP for Johannesburg North. This letter accompanied a lease which was sent to the tenant of a certain flat, Civic Hall 1907, Braamfontein, Johannesburg. Although it is a contract which concerns the property which does not fall under rent control, we find amongst the large number of provisions—I am not going to dwell on each one of them—that there are strange ideas embodied in it. For instance, the cancellation fee of R100 which the tenant has to pay to the agent if he breaks his contract. This is over and above the usual breach of contract and compensation which he would have had to pay. This is indeed a strange provision, but I shall leave it at that. Clause 17 of this contract provides that—

This is quite correct and normal, but then the following also appears in the contract—

This therefore means that, if one moves in and the whole wiring of the flat is faulty because it has worn down over the years, the lessee has to replace the entire wiring system and hot-water cylinder at his own cost. Therefore I want to know whether that party has the right to open their mouths on such malpractices in terms of the Rent Act or any other rent provision, if the chairman of this company, the hon. member for Johannesburg North, is committing the same malpractices in his contracts in respect of the leasing of properties.

In the few minutes at my disposal I should like to dwell on the question of squatters. This is a matter about which a great deal has already been said during this session, especially in respect of the unsophisticated habitual squatter who moves from one area to another. However, I want to pay attention to the sophisticated backyard squatter who is obviously and provocatively being allowed to live on the premises of White owners in the best residential areas in the Peninsula. I am referring to the domestic servant, her sleeping partner and her children. I am referring to the employer with his employees who lives in the backyard. I am referring to the approximately 40% of the non-White population of Sea Point who work elsewhere, and whose children catch the buses at 7 o’clock every morning to go to school in Langa. With reference to this subject and also because of a complaint which I received from my own constituency, I investigated the matter in my own constituency. My constituency consists of a rapidly growing area; including some of the best residential areas of the northern suburbs, namely Goodwood, Bellville, Parow and Durbanville. It also includes residential areas like Welgemoed, Hoheizen, Loevenstein, Eversdal, Stellenberg, Vygeboom, Valmary Park, Plattekloof and Panorama. These residential areas are all situated fairly far away from Coloured residential areas and Coloured maids are quite difficult to obtain, unless an additional advantage is offered to them. I discovered that this problem really exists in these areas. It is not limited to single exceptional cases, but on the other hand it is not of exceptional extent, but it does exist and is increasing alarmingly. Crime is increasing and the police experience problems in prosecuting the criminals due to a lack of sufficient evidence. Public prosecutors often refuse to prosecute, as a result of problematical legal provisions. The White owner prevents these people from being prosecuted because he wants to retain the services of his domestic servant. When they are prosecuted, the onus of proof is difficult. If there is a conviction, a fine follows which is actually a fair rental for excellent board and lodging in a prestige residential area. Imprisonment is hardly effective because not only are our goals full, but as soon as the person is released, the family moves from one good-hearted White employer to the next.

If one takes note of certain of the statutory provisions, one finds that the Group Areas Act, Act No. 36 of 1966, prohibits the unskilled Coloured from living in a White proclaimed area. The Act also prohibits owners from allowing something like this. However, there are certain exemptions. Section 26 of the Act provides very clearly that the bona fide visitor, who may be a Coloured in an area which has been declared White, is entitled to visit the area for 90 days per year. How do the police determine whether the 90-day provision has been adhered to? How is the case proved? Today the person is here and tomorrow somewhere else. Naturally we are faced here with problematical provisions. Nevertheless, I want to make a request to local authorities on this occasion to try and root out this problem to the best of their ability in terms of existing provisions. For example, there is the Slums Act in terms of which minimum floor space and minimum cubic capacity are determined. Steps can be taken against the illegal occupation of premises by unauthorized persons. Municipal regulations in respect of unauthorized structures, the Public Health Act of 1919 and the Prevention of Illegal Squatting Act which was so effectively amended this year, may all contribute towards combatting the problem.

However, one does not simply want to prosecute. The problem can be solved far more easily if one simply applies self-discipline. An orderly civilization cannot allow a strong stream of Coloured inhabitants and sleep-in maids to enter the White residential areas early every morning and leave late at night. We cannot allow Coloured families to be accommodated in the backyards of White persons. White home owners must do their duty towards civilization. One must take one’s neighbours into consideration.

If one wants to allow a sleep-in maid, one must remember that the interests of one’s neighbour are also important and weigh heavily. If principles are important to one, one must most certainly clean up one’s own house. If they are not important to one, one must definitely take the principles of one’s neighbour into account. One must respect him for them and if necessary get rid of one’s maid. Therefore it is every neighbour’s duty, no matter if it upsets the good neighbourly relationship, to bring malpractices of this nature to the attention of the local authority immediately. If all people do not give their full co-operation in order to root out this problem and if local authorities fail to root out this problem by making use of existing statutory provisions, there will eventually be only one logical solution for obtaining effective control, and this is a system of statutory compulsory registration of maids. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, like the hon. member for Durbanville, I also want to return to a point which the hon. the Minister raised, and this is the problem of squatting. I see that on page 3 of the report of the Department of Community Development the following is said—

And then the Secretary said—

I welcome the announcement of this plan and I shall welcome it if the hon. the Minister, if he is able, can give us more information about the nature of the plan and the type of housing which is being proposed. It seems to me to be something between subeconomic housing and the problem of squatting. Once again this morning the hon. the Minister indicated with great passion that he wants nothing to do with site and service schemes. I agree with the hon. the Minister. Site and service schemes are not a permanent solution to the squatting problem.

It tends to become permanent.

Yes, it tends to become permanent if alternative solutions are not found. The fact that a plan is being announced here is, in my opinion, a very encouraging sign. However, I should like to bring a few problems to the attention of the hon. the Minister, problems which must be kept in mind in respect of this plan if it is to be carried out successfully. The first problem is the fact that this plan will have to provide for the housing requirements of a particular category of labourers. Usually they are not very highly skilled and are often unemployed. In other words, they do not have fixed conditions of service. They are not geared in a formal way to the labour market. In other words, there are no organizations at their disposal by means of which they can be regularly geared to the labour market. Prof. Terblanche and Prof. Sadie of Stellenbosch, two economists, refer to them as the unidentifiable labourers, and according to Prof. Sadie’s calculations—he calls them the unidentifiable labourer because he does not have any fixed skill and cannot fit into the labour market conveniently—by the year 1980—that is approximately in four years’ time—there will be 180 000 Coloured labourers in this category. These are the type of people who I think will also be considered by the department as the low income squatters. These are the people who must be given accommodation and who in many cases cannot afford to accept accommodation of an economic or sub-economic nature. I assume—the hon. the Minister can explain it to us later—that the department’s annual report when it refers to this low income group—refers to this category of labourers. It is calculated that there will be a great many of them. By the way, of those 180 000, according to projections by Prof. Sadie, 80 000 will be completely unemployed. The others will be semi-unemployed, or “under employed”.

The second problem is that the plan will have to take into account the Coloured migration from the rural areas to the city. According to an investigation which Unisa made last year—in January 1975—27% of all farm labourers who left their jobs on farms in 1973 and 1974, came directly to the towns and cities. It is usually the younger labourers who do so. At the same time it was also discovered that the average age of farm labourers is 36 years. In addition to this there is a third problem which in my opinion will have to be taken into account in these plans. It is the economic absorptive power of the Western Cape metropolitan area. In the foreseeable future this will be the area where employment opportunities can be created or where employment opportunities are going to arise. Although the long-term policy is going to be to decentralize economically, the short-term problem is the housing crisis for these people who are moving to the cities, chiefly that of the unidentifiable labourer type. The fourth problem is that it will have to be borne in mind that there is competition between the Coloured and the Bantu in this unidentifiable labour market. It is a fact that the Government policy is trying to turn the Western Cape into a coloured priority area. This has two immediate consequences; economic consequences for housing in particular. These are that, on the one hand there is an increase in contract labour in the rural areas, and that at the same time more Coloureds move to the urban centres. Secondly, in the urban centres, in this unidentifiable labour market as I call it, direct competition exists between the Bantu and Coloured labourer, both, whether they are Coloured or Bantu, being subject to the same economic factors and to the same economic forces which exert an influence upon them. Ultimately they also create the same problem in respect of accommodation.

These problems to which I referred, force one to draw the following conclusions. For the foreseeable future there is going to be an influx of Coloureds in need of housing to the metropolitan Western Cape; the type of housing which is considered fair and cheap by the Department of Community Development. It seems to me as if there is going to be an influx to the Western Cape. Secondly, this influx is going to take place over and above the existing squatter population already settled in the Western Cape. This varies between 150 000 and 180 000, as has already been mentioned. The third matter which I want to mention is the following. It does not seem to me—and here I should like the hon. the Minister’s advice—that, in terms of the standpoint of the department, the factors which I have mentioned are being taken into account. The department’s standpoint is that existing squatter communities must be frozen. I accept that this is a good thing. One freezes the situation and then one tries to clear it up by making accommodation available. However, it seems to me that if it is the solution to force these people back to the rural areas, the exact same problem is going to arise in the rural towns, namely the problem of providing the low income group of squatters with housing. I should like to hear from the hon. the Minister which possible solution his department has in mind in this connection.

There are also a few other questions which I should like to put in this connection. What is the nature of the housing which is being proposed in these housing complexes? Where are the possible areas where these housing complexes can be established in the Western Cape area? In other words, where is one going to establish these complexes? What is the degree of participation on the part of the population group in question going to be in the erection of these houses? There is a general appreciation for the Department’s attempts to make economic and sub-economic housing available, but the actual housing crisis exists in the case of that category of persons to which I have just referred, and I really do not believe that this Government or any other Government is going to solve this problem simply with the aid of funds. I do not think there will ever be a period of time when there will be sufficient funds available for the State to accept sole responsibility for the solution to this problem. I do not think that the Department of Community Development will ever be in the position where it, as an isolated department, will be able to combat the entire absorptive power of the city with a housing policy, because this is not a problem which the department caused; it is a problem which it has to try and solve.

Therefore the whole question of housing must coincide with planning in other departments. For instance, if one wants to create alternative growth points, it is a long-term attempt which is going to take many years, and before a natural flow takes place back to those areas, a department like the Department of Community Development will be faced with a short-term housing crisis. It is in this short term that we are going to experience problems in respect of the squatter communities in the Western Cape. These unidentifiable labourers will increase in the foreseeable future, no matter which disciplinary measures we use in order to force them back to the rural areas.

Mr. Chairman, all the hon. member really did was to ask questions …

Let him have it!

No, I do not think we should tackle him this morning; it is the first time he has acted sensibly. Sir, I want to associate myself at once with the request made by the hon. member for Tygervallei that we should institute an inquiry into rent control. If there is one problem in South Africa at the moment, it is the problem of rent control and its application. We have heard from various hon. members about the problems which arise in their constituencies in this connection. There are many countries in the world which apply rent control, and they follow various systems. I feel that since we have a committee on housing at the moment, we should take this matter further. Furthermore, I feel that practical politicians must also be included in that committee. Housing has its political problems, too, and I therefore think that some of our practical politicians should be included in such a committee of inquiry. In this way the problems will perhaps be more easily considered, taking into consideration, too, the position in other countries.

I now come to the theme which I actually want to discuss, viz. landownership. We often hear the words: laat die erwe van ons vaad’re vir ons kinders erwe bly. How many of us do anything positive to see to it that every person in South Africa becomes a landowner? How many people are actively engaged in this today? I want to quote an example of this in my own constituency, namely a housing scheme called Crown Gardens. If ever there were good, average people, then these are they. We built this housing scheme in 1950. One section was sold, and I invite anyone to see what beautiful gardens have been established there by these same people from the same economic group. The gardens are so beautiful that that place has been called the “Garden City” in the English newspapers. Alongside live similar people with more or less the same income, but they have to wait for the day a budget gives them the opportunity of owning their own houses.

Are you the hon. member …

That hon. member must be quiet. I have heard enough from that hon. member now. He must not interrupt all the time. If the hon. member has a nightmare and wakes up in the daytime and thinks he has been wounded, it is not so, it is just his mouth that is open too often.

This Government wants to have capitalism in this country and capitalism or communism never begins at the top level of the population. It begins among the poor, among those who possess nothing. I want the Whites to become landowners, whether they live in economic or in sub-economic houses. It must be our aim to re-instate the occupant of a sub-economic house in such a way that from tomorrow he will be able to conclude a contract of sale instead of a lease contract with the Government. Everyone of our people has a desire to be a landowner. As soon as a man earns too much money—it may be R5, R10, R15 or R20—that man is evicted from his sub-economic house. The next thing is that his child’s clothes have to be changed because he has to attend a new school. The father of a child who lives in my constituency and works in Robertham perhaps has to go to Germiston and remain there throughout his lifetime. He has already been living in the house in Crown Gardens for 18 to 20 years and now he has to travel from Germiston every day because he is too old to make that change now. We must apply these things in a practical way and convey them to these people. We must give them the opportunity to become landowners. In many cases, particularly in Crown Gardens where older people live, we do not ask that they be evicted from their houses if they no longer qualify. I think that we must begin a phase of landownership for all South Africans.

Today we must look at the cities and especially at places like Jeppe, which have degenerated completely. Do hon. members know why? It is because opportunities have not been created in the meantime for people to own land. It is extremely difficult to take one step up the social ladder. The opportunity offered to these people must come from the Government. The people in my constituency have already written letters and all of them are asking to buy these rented houses. I ask that we should go to the people of Crown Gardens and say that from next week they may possess houses as owners. I know that there is a little difficulty in connection with sectional titles, but the Government can arrange everything. We have already shown that we are ahead in every aspect. We have shown South Africa that we can solve all the problems in South Africa. Our people who are not land-owners, look to the Government to afford them the opportunity to buy those houses. I want to ask all members of Parliament, all members of provincial councils and all members of city councils in South Africa to exert themselves in this connection. The city council should not be a letting agent. It is the State’s money. Transfer it, the municipalities of Johannesburg and others who still have thousands of dwelling units which they let to people. It is not their duty to lease. Help the people to become landowners. Sell the properties to the people.

If one is to take the matter a little further, although I believe that the hon. the Minister will provide an answer himself, I want to point out that if ever there was a department in South Africa which was worth its salt, it is the Department of Community Development. Over the past few years they have done work of which South Africa can be proud. I have looked at housing schemes in many places already. I must say that our problem with certain Coloureds, the unidentifiables, as the hon. member for Rondebosch referred to them, is one of vast scope. However, the department is solving the problem. The public is taking note of the success which the department is achieving in this respect. There are people who hardly earn enough to buy bread, but the reason for their scanty income is the fact that they do not work regularly. They do not work regularly, not because there is something the matter, but because they do not want to work. It is not easy to provide housing for such people. Indeed, it is a great problem. However, the department has not given up hope, folded its hands and said that a site-and-service scheme will be allowed in future. On the contrary. The department is doing something about it! The department is applying new methods. The department is inquiring into the possibility of obtaining new ideas abroad. I appeal to hon. members to co-operate.

I asked for your support in this connection.

Yes, we must co-operate. It is wonderful to know that everyone will offer their co-operation. Although the hon. members opposite sometimes criticize us on certain matters, I know that they feel in their hearts that this problem must be solved. This is why I believe that every one of us in this House has the same task: We must be able to provide housing so cheaply in South Africa that everyone will be afforded an opportunity. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, we really enjoyed listening to the verligte speech of the hon. member for Langlaagte. I am pleased to hear that he, too, feels that every South African should have the right to own his own land.

†I should also like to speak about the Rents Act to which several other hon. members have referred. Difficulties are being experienced with the implementation of the amendments brought about in the Act and I am sure that all hon. members have received letters and requests from their voters about this problem. I think that in particular the middle-income group people, the old-age pensioners and other people who have only limited means are now faced with sudden increases in their rental. I do not want to quote a great deal, but I should like to read something to indicate how these people feel. One person has written to me—

This person, I am sure, never heard the reply of the hon. the Minister to a question asked by the hon. member for Walmer. The hon. member asked what was the highest increase in rental that was adjudged by the rent boards during 1975. The hon. the Minister replied that it was 710%, but the writer of this letter is complaining about 100%.

I only want to point out, as has been pointed out, that this gives rise to great problems. People are now finding that they have nowhere else to go. When their rental is increased by 100%, they cannot go anywhere else because there is no accommodation at cheaper rentals available. I am particularly referring to those who cannot look forward to an increase in their income. There is now a serious need for low-cost housing in South Africa. One cannot blame the landlord. The landlord, of course, is faced with rising costs and must try to recover this money. So what is the solution? I am glad to see that the Afrikaans newspaper Rapport has approached this problem in much the same way as we do. In the issue of 16 November 1975 there is an article in Eiendomsrapport which states and I quote—

Here are the three avenues proposed—

If this law is further amended, of course, it will just become altogether impossible for people to build. There is, of course, also an increasing tendency for people to convert their blocks of flats so that the flats can be sold in terms of the Sectional Titles Act. We, of course, feel that the best solution is to scrap the Act, but this is impracticable. We feel therefore that the second solution proposed is the one the Government should adopt. It would not cost the department all that much money if they were to give tax abatements or subsidies to property owners so that they could perhaps keep the rental down because they have benefited from the tax reductions or subsidies. The means test should be applied to such premises. This is another problem. Where there is low-rental housing available, people are occupying that accommodation who have no right to do so. We feel that the hon. the Minister should investigate whether the people who are given the right to stay in low-rental housing should not be subjected to a means test so that those who can afford more expensive accommodation do not occupy these premises. I would like the hon. the Minister to investigate that matter.

I also want to say something about rent control board hearings. All of us who have been to rent board hearings must have been struck by the pitiful sight of the problems of tenants who attend such hearings. The owner, who normally has his lawyer or accountant with him, presents a lot of facts about the costs involved in maintaining the property for which he is trying to obtain an increase in rental. The tenants go to such hearings fully prepared to question what that gentleman has to say. At the last minute, however, they get cold feet because they feel that they may be victimized by the landlord if they say anything to contradict what he has already said. I have attended a couple of hearings where this in fact happened. Afterwards I asked the people why they did not tell the chairman that it was not true when the landlord had said that the caretaker paid full rental for his flat while they knew very well that that was not the case, or when he said that the place was just painted while they knew very well it was not, or when he said that he had so many boys servicing the flat while they knew that there were no boys at all. They usually say that they are afraid to say anything because he might kick them out. This is pitiful. They cannot afford a lawyer to represent them. I wonder whether there is not some other method available to these people. Can legal aid not be made available to these people who go to a rent board to represent their case?

I now come to development in group areas. This is a problem in my constituency and I am sure in many other constituencies as well. After a group area has been proclaimed, there is a time lapse of anything from 5 to 6 or even more years before anything concrete is done, before any building is started, before any property is made available for purchase by the people who will eventually live in that group area. I wonder whether something cannot be done to minimize this delay. Is the delay caused by the Department of Community Development trying to do too much by itself? Is it trying to plan the area, to plan the services and then to provide the services, before anything else can be commenced? Can some of this work, for instance the planning, be given to town planners? Can the supply of services, the design of services, not be given to firms who specialize in that sort of thing? Can the development of the township not be done by property developers for the Department of Community Development? Will this not hasten the process, so that people can purchase their own property if they can afford it? I know many can. Many are just dying to be able to buy property so that they can build their own houses.

The other matter I should like to refer to is the matter of low-cost housing. The hon. the Minister of Forestry appealed to all members the other day to publicize the use of timber in housing. He said experiments were done by the Department of Forestry and that it was discovered that timber houses with concrete or brick foundations was a very worthwhile project. He wanted us to publicize that fact. I wondered whether the Department of Community Development could not do something in this respect. Could the department not investigate the building of houses of wood with perhaps brick or plaster linings? Can the department not popularize this so that more and more people will make use of it? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the question of rent control has been raised so many times in the course of this debate that the hon. member will understand my not reacting to his argument. As a person who was born and grew up in South West Africa and as a person who thinks very highly of and appreciates what the hon. A. H. du Plessis, the former Minister of Community Development, did for this country and for our people, and, indeed, is still doing, I should like to associate myself with what was said by those who paid tribute to him in a suitable manner in this debate. His quiet dignity with the emphasis not only on quiet, but also on dignity, his honest sincerity and his dauntless perseverance will serve as an example worth following for us for many years to come. As one who is eager to learn, and if I may say so myself, a dedicated member of the Indian Affairs study group of the National Party, I am particularly pleased that it is our competent hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs who took over from Mr. A. H. du Plessis as Minister of Community Development.

His apprenticeship was a good one.

After the Department of Indian Affairs, the most important department by far to the Indians, is the Department of Community Development. In order to support my statement, I should like to quote briefly from the report of the Department of Indian Affairs. In chapter 4, page 18, we read the following under the sub-heading “housing”—

Mention is made in the report of the shortage of thousands of houses. Consequently I am of the opinion that placing these two departments under one Minister—something which the hon. the Prime Minister did—can only bode well for the Indian community. Towards the end of my speech I hope to come back to the question of Indian accommodation because I believe that it is imperative for the categorical statement to be made here that the present shortage of accommodation for Indians would have existed, irrespective of what Government was in power, irrespective of what ideology was being applied and irrespective of what policy was being followed. Despite any circumstances which may prevail, the leeway in providing accommodation to Indians must be made up. However, it is not because of the policy of the Government that a shortage exists.

Before I say anything further about the shortage of housing, I should like to comment on certain aspects of the resettlement of Indian traders. I want to say right at the outset that this is a sore point with the Indians. For this very reason it is unfortunately also a matter which holds the possibility of exploitation, especially by people who are not always well-disposed towards the Government or the Indian community. I am referring to irresponsible leftist elements, people who do not care to what extent they bedevil human relations, as long as it is to their own advantage. In my opinion the PRP is a striking example of the kind of people to whom I am referring. I can prove it too.

The fact of the matter is that the department often experiences certain traders initially objecting to resettlement. The choice of situation, the business opportunities and similar factors, however, are thoroughly investigated by the department beforehand. In terms of the policy which is being applied, an attempt is made to provide the Indian traders who are resettled with equal or improved circumstances and trading possibilities. In the vast majority of cases it is found that once the people are resettled, once their business undertakings are operating satisfactorily, they are usually quite satisfied. There are many examples of cases like this. It even happens that some of the White traders who originally encouraged the resettlement of certain Indian traders, start worrying because of the fact that the new Indian shops take some of their clients away from them.

Indian business undertakings are resettled for two basic reasons. In the first place it is done for the purposes of urban renewal. In the second place, it is done with a view to eliminating friction. I found it very interesting when the hon. member for Boksburg referred here yesterday to the Coloured community in his constituency and said that the Coloureds there were asking for the resettlement of Indian businesses in that area. It is a case in which the question of friction is clearly evident. However, it is obvious that Indian businesses are not being resettled merely for the sake of resettlement. I have already said that this is a very sore point with the Indians. That is why I want to plead earnestly that scrupulous attention be paid to the merits of every resettlement case. We should resort to resettlement as little as possible, and, where necessary, as many people as possible should be resettled within existing business areas.

What I am advocating, is nothing new. Nor am I advocating new legislation. Things like this have already been done at Klerksdorp, as well as in the case of the Oriental Plaza in Johannesburg and in the case of the Asiatic Bazaar in Pretoria. It has also been done in Grey Street, Durban. Therefore this is nothing new. Legislation already exists for making this type of thing possible. Section 19 of the Group Areas Act (Act No. 36 of 1966) makes provision for this.

I firmly believe that there should be separation of residential areas. If there is no separation of residential areas, chaos, violence and racial friction will be the order of the day. As far as I am concerned, the question of Indian traders, however, is a different matter altogether. It is not analogous to the separation of residential areas. The hon. member for Green Point said the following with regard to permits, etc.—

I think the hon. the Minister did just that this morning. However, the issue here is policy principles. There are only three principles involved, whether in permits, resettlement, etc. As far as we are concerned, there are only three principles involved. The first is the right to preserve one’s identity, that is, the right to self-determination. The second is the right not to share power over oneself with others; in other words, power sharing may not be forced upon one. The third principle is the maintenance of law and order, and, inter alia, the elimination of points of friction as well. These are the only three principles which apply, and no others. Hon. members will now want to know what the policy is. The policy flows from these principles, and is what one does so as to give substance to these principles. For this reason, we have, for example, the policy of separate development, a policy of which the moving away from discrimination on grounds of race and colour is an indissoluble component. The statement which I want to make, is that when it comes to the resettlement of Indian traders—whether they should in fact be resettled, and, if so, where; or when the issue is permits for the Nico Malan Theatre, etc.—I as a Nationalist have to measure these things in terms of the principles of the policy as I have expounded them here. If my identity is not being endangered, if political power over me is not being threatened and if law and order is not being threatened, I must ask myself what reason there is for the resettlement of these people and what reason there is for not throwing open the Nico Malan Theatre? The same applies to recreation resorts in the country. For example, there cannot be a hot water spring and a game park in every Indian town. We all agree that these people must have those facilities—the hon. member for Maraisburg referred to it yesterday—but I sometimes read the unspoken ideas in some people’s minds that everything is good and well, as long as it does not happen in their area or constituency. In this connection our people must be honest with themselves and with one another.

I want to conclude by saying that over the past few days we have adequately warned against leftist parties like the PRP, but we are also aware of right extremists in South Africa. These people label things, such as throwing open the Nico Malan Theatre to all races by means of a permit, as concessions. They are not concessions, but are in fact the implementation and application of our own policy. We must guard against the leftist elements not disturbing our balance and forcing us into an ultra-right direction, where just as much damage can be done by us as that which the leftists do.

Mr. Chairman, I trust that the hon. member for Krugersdorp will forgive me if I do not react to his speech, because I wish to return to the question of Coloured housing. I want to quote to the hon. the Minister what I said to his predecessor last year during the discussion of this Vote. I said the following (Hansard, Vol. 57, col. 6765)—

I went on to suggest that an area could be set aside for Coloured occupation by middle-class home owners. In the annual report of the Durban Chamber of Commerce, which was issued up till April of this year, I find the following statement about Coloured housing—

It went on to say—

Since then, there has been a lead article in the Indian supplement of the Sunday Times of 6 June in which it is indicated that the Indian Council has called upon the services of the hon. the Prime Minister to arbitrate in connection with the appeal which was made by the Indian community for the restoration of certain land for the development of Indian housing in Cato Manor. I believe that the hon. the Minister is in a particularly important position in this regard. I know that the Departments of Coloured Affairs and Planning are involved, but this hon. Minister is involved in a dual capacity. That is why I address a further appeal to him, to ask him whether, in his deliberations which are continually taking place—I accept that—he will give sympathetic consideration to the need of the Coloured people for land in this particular area. My motivation is that there is a Coloured housing complex on one side of the national road and that in Cato Manor, which is in my constituency, there are areas which have been declared for White occupation and ownership on the other side of the road. I believe that the nearness of these two areas would offer a solution to a very urgent problem. I want to refer the hon. the Minister to the fact that in 1975 I raised the matter with the Minister of Community Development, this hon. Minister’s predecessor. He answered that the matter was receiving the attention of the department. This hon. Minister in February said that subsequent representations had resulted in a final decision being held in abeyance, but that the final decision, it was hoped, would be announced in the near future. I can only say that the Coloureds have a vested right in this area. According to information at my disposal there were 3 000 Coloureds living in the Cato Manor area in 1965, after the removal of that population group had started. It is therefore apparent that, historically, they have this right.

As regards the question of home-ownership houses for Coloureds, let me draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to these facts, dated December 1965: The number of dwelling units built by private enterprise for Whites totalled over 2 500, for Indians nearly 1 200, and for Coloureds, 21.

Where was this?

In the Durban complex. These houses were built by private enterprise in the Durban complex. This is not the case because the Coloureds are not prepared to build their own houses, but because they have no land on which to build them. In relation to the overall complex in the Durban area, may I point out to the hon. the Minister that according to figures his department gave me—I accept that they could be an estimate—the shortage of Coloured housing amounted to 4 000 at the end of 1975, in the Durban complex. This is for the smallest population group in the Durban area. One can imagine just how critical the situation is.

Let me give an example. It was only due to the kindness of a former mayor of Durban, and the humane approach of the Department of Community Development that, over a year ago, three families were housed, in a case of emergency, in a property which the mayor of Durban owned at that time. Subsequently, legal provisions forced the ejectment of these people. When I made personal representations both to the local authorities and to the Department of Community Development, there was just nothing available for the three families—not a house, not a roof over their heads. I can appreciate that it is not possible to jump the queue and I can appreciate that, if there is a shortage of 4 000 houses, there must be a long waiting list. However, what happens in a case of emergency like this when three families just have to be ejected? I accept that the provision of housing is gaining a little momentum. The figures show that, but it is very, very slow. Welcome as this increase in the supply of housing units is, in the Wentworth/Austerville complex it is also producing problems, because according to my figures the population of that complex in 1970 was 10 000, whereas this year the figure was given to me as being over 17 000. During that period in that particular area 1 600 housing units have been added. This is very welcome, but I want to refer the hon. the Minister to a statement in this very concise and up-to-date report issued by his Secretary, for which I commend him in the same terms as the remarks of my hon. colleague. Under the heading “Housing Amendment Act” it states—

I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that an urgent and critical need exists in the Wentworth/Austerville complex and I want to put it to him that it is not the delay of the local authority which is responsible for that, because I have been intimately involved in the difficulties which the local authority has had over a period of seven years, to my knowledge, with three different Government departments. The present position is that in this complex, with approximately 17 000 people, there is no swimming bath. There are only two tennis courts, no bowling greens, one soccer field, no rugby fields, no cricket pitches, five children’s playgrounds, and no hockey field. What does the immediate future hold? In the immediate future, probably during 1977, one swimming bath will be provided by the local authority. Bowling greens will be available shortly, and there will be two soccer fields and one hockey field. In addition, three soccer fields, one cricket field and tennis courts are being planned, but there is no final date for their provision. The only other provision that has been made to serve this concentrated complex of Coloured people in the last five years has been the Austerville community hall, which was completed in 1975 by the Community Development Board.

I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to adopt an urgent and dynamic action programme for this particular area. You cannot blame the people there if they are frustrated, if there is crime and if there is dissatisfaction. They are living, I believe, in appalling conditions. I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to the fact that I drew the attention of his predecessor to the problems that are arising and will arise when you have high density housing, without sufficient or suitable recreational facilities available to the population. I believe the facilities are appallingly limited in this particular area.

Then I want to return, in the brief time at my disposal, to Cato Manor. If the Minister is able to agree that Cato Manor should be allocated on the basis I have suggested, I can point out to him that there is already a ready-made recreational complex in Tills Crescent which would supply people who have home ownership rights in that area with a swimming bath, tennis courts, a soccer field, a rugby field and a hockey field until such time as the planning of the department could supplement those facilities for the new people who could come in under that scheme. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I had hoped, during this second turn of mine to speak, to discuss the details of what was raised by hon. members. I shall still try to do so, but perhaps it will not be possible, in the time that has been allotted to me, for me, to give attention to the matters raised by each hon. member. Most of the matters raised by the hon. members I can discuss generally, for a great deal was said which covered the same field. If any hon. member feels that there is a matter which he raised in regard to which he should like me to furnish more information, I would appreciate it if they would write to me. I shall then reply to their questions more comprehensively in a letter. I am sorry, but that is the only way in which I can do it, considering the time limit.

A matter which was raised fairly generally was rent control. Rent control is of course a problem which is bound up with the entire question of White housing, and for that reason I should now like to make a more formal statement on the position. In general the White population group is well housed, but the Government is very alarmed at the fact that the provision of housing by the private sector is at present not progressing as it should. A decrease in private building activities, coupled with rising prices, is forcing more and more Whites to turn to the State for accommodation. Several members expressed their concern at this, at what they called the possible socialization of housing in South Africa. Thanks to a significant contribution by the private sector over the years, most of the Whites have been able to acquire accommodation without State aid. Since 1971 there has, despite the population increase, been a disturbing decrease in the building of flats in particular with the result that a serious shortage of accommodation for leasing purposes is developing. This situation can only be rectified if bottlenecks are eliminated temporarily. In this regard I should like to quote a few figures. During 1971 10 436 flats were erected by the private sector, as against only 8 429 and 7 625 respectively in 1974 and 1975. This downward tendency is still continuing, while the sale of individual flats is reducing the available accommodation for leasing purposes even further. Hon. members will appreciate that the more units that are sold under the Sectional Title Act, the fewer units are available for people who, for various reasons, find it necessary to lease accommodation. Although housing has recently been provided at an unparallelled rate, it has not been possible to meet the demand for housing by the Coloureds and Indians fully, owing to the enormous extent of that demand.

After today’s discussion, however, hon. members will be more aware of the enormous effort which is being made, but it will still be years before the backlog has been eliminated. In the four-year period between 1972 and 1975 a total of 116 719 residential units, primarily for Whites, were provided by the private sector, while the Department of Community Development provided a total of 106 573 dwelling units during the same period, of which only 19% were for Whites and the remainder for all population groups. Therefore this amounts to an average joint provision rate of 55 823 dwelling units per annum. The 30 000 dwelling units built by the department in 1975 was 2 000 more than that provided by the private sector. Similarly this reflects the decrease in private building activities in contrast to increasing efforts on the part of the authorities to solve housing problems.

The solution to the non-White housing problem requires ever greater spending, so much so that only 13%, or 19 000 of the 144 000 family dwellings and schemes to the value of R500 million which are in various stages of construction or have already been approved but which could not yet be commenced owing to the shortage of funds, were intended for members of the White population group, while 47% were intended for the Coloureds, 11% for the Indians and 29% for the Bantu. The schemes which are not yet under construction comprise 26 801 dwelling units to the value of more than R125 million. Approved homes for the aged, community facilities and Bantu hostel schemes, which imposes an additional burden of several million rands on the National Housing Fund, are not included in this. It should therefore be clear that urgent steps will have to be taken to avert the threatening housing shortage for Whites in time. National Housing Funds are inadequate. Therefore it is essential that the underlying factors discouraging private participation in housing provision are rapidly eliminated. It is frequently alleged that rent control—a matter which so many hon. members raised today—deters private developers and investors. Because only those dwellings which were occupied prior to 1 July 1966 for the first time are subject to rent control, and in view of repeated assurances by my predecessors, as well as an unequivocal statement by myself during February of this year that rent control will not be extended except in individual cases where exploitation is proved, such allegations are completely unfounded. The fact of the matter is that apart from the availability of funds, private developers find it almost impossible, owing to the high interest rates payable on financing capital, as well as high building costs, to provide residential accommodation at economic rentals. This is the kind of housing which the lower and middle-income groups can afford. It is precisely among these groups that the greatest demand for housing is being experienced.

The Government has the greatest appreciation for the service which lessors of residential accommodation render to the community, and it earnestly desires them to be fairly remunerated for doing so. Many a lessor of rent-controlled premises is at present burdened by an exceptionally high interest rate as a result in the increases in interest rates on mortgages. A gross yield of 8½% per annum, to which lessors are entitled in terms of the provisions of the amended Rentals Act, is no longer adequate in cases of the present nature, but simply a shift of the burden of interest from the lessors to the lessees is obviously not the answer. There is no instant solution to this complex problem, which applies equally to existing residential buildings in new residential development—this has been our experience—and I have consequently decided to have recourse to expert advice by referring the entire matter to the Commission of Inquiry into Housing Matters—the Fouché Commission—for thorough-going investigation. The commission is already devoting attention to this problem, and I am confident that with the discussion of the “Community Development” Vote last year, it will be possible to report positive results. I think this is the answer to the many points which hon. members have raised in regard to rent control.

Does that include depreciation?

It includes all the aspects which were raised here, and others as well. For example there is one aspect which causes me a great deal of concern, and hon. members have mentioned it, namely that rent control is intended to protect people who cannot afford the high rentals. This is not always the case, because people who can afford to pay economic rentals, also enjoy that protection. I think there are dozens and dozens of rent-controlled flats here in the Cape Peninsula which are occupied by people who are relatively well-to-do, while people who really need the protection, are not able to occupy such flats. The other problem is that one must strike a balance, in some way or another, a balance between the interests of the lessor, for the lessor is frequently also dependent on his income, and frequently her income, from such a building, for it is perhaps the only asset which such a person may have, and the interests of the people who occupy these places, while many of the people who occupy those places, are not entitled to protection. I will be very pleased if the Commission of Inquiry would institute a very thorough investigation into all these aspects, and advise all of us in this regard.

†I should now like to deal in more details with some of the questions raised subject to the difficulty I stated to hon. members earlier on. I should like to begin with the points raised by my friend, the hon. member for Green Point.

He raised the question of District Six, Woodstock and Salt River. Finality must be reached in these matters. I hope that he will accept that the whole consideration with regard to District Six was completed by the Cabinet more than a year ago and that that should be regarded as final. However, as far as Woodstock and Salt River are concerned, these two areas are still subject to a very intensive investigation by the Department of Planning, and all that I can say is that in the meantime, until that is completed, the Department of Community Development will accept the suggestions of the hon. member and will maintain the status quo there as far as possible. The future of these areas has not yet been determined and is still subject to investigation.

My hon. friend also raised interesting questions with regard to the retention of historic homes when the department undertakes urban renewal schemes. He and I have something in common here. It is something which is close to our hearts that historic buildings of significance should, if at all possible be retained. Therefore I want to assure him that my department will do everything in its power to do exactly that, to protect historic buildings. I am grateful to the hon. member and I think you should know that he has also made available to the department the experience which he had at his disposal in other countries in this respect and I want to assure him that we appreciate this and will give very close attention to the matters that he has suggested. I think I have dealt with all the other points that he has raised in my general statement.

*To the hon. member for Tygerfontein I want to address a particular word … [Interjections.] Oh well, I was never very good at geography. I want to express my appreciation to the hon. member for Tygervallei for his contribution and for the assistance he rendered to me in replying to the points raised by the hon. member for Green Point. He discussed the question of rent control in detail. I think that I, too, have already replied to this. He raised a very interesting point on the retrospective effect of the provisions. This is something which I shall specifically ask the commission to look into.

The hon. member for Johannesburg North apologized for not being able to be here today. He raised the question of rent control. It is gratifying to know that a speech was made from the PRP benches which dealt with the interests of an important population group in South Africa. The interests of those people are of course not usually recognized by hon. members of the PRP.

An historic day.

The hon. member for Boksburg asked that consideration be given to smaller plots when housing was being planned. This is of course not only the policy of the Department of Community Development, but also the policy of the Government. Every member of the Cabinet has been requested by the Prime Minister to investigate every case in which land is utilized for other purposes than food production. Such cases, the hon. the Prime Minister asked, should receive special attention to prevent us from being so profligate with our agricultural land in South Africa that we subsequently encounter major problems in view of the population explosion threatening the world. We are thoroughly aware of the value and the preciousness of our land and we should therefore like to make an appeal to the public to moderate their demand for land for housing purposes.

He asked whether we could not apply uniform building regulations. This work has already been done by the South African Bureau of Standards. Such regulations have already been drawn up and circulated to local authorities who have to apply those regulations. They have returned those regulations with certain suggestions, and the entire matter is being re-examined. The Department of Community Development will soon be able to set an example and take steps to achieve uniformity among all the local authorities in South Africa. The point which the hon. member raised was a very interesting one, and I assure him that we shall do our best in this regard. The hon. member also referred to the Coloureds of Reiger Park. That matter is receiving attention; the people will be moved to a more pleasant area—I think to a section 19 area. Work is progressing as rapidly as funds allow.

My friend, the hon. member for Hillbrow, raised the matter of Mr. Wainer’s activities. As he indicated, he and I have raised this matter previously in this House. We are both concerned about it. When the Sunday Express drew attention to certain new activities of Mr. Wainer, I immediately said—as he mentioned—that we would have to look into the entire matter and if necessary take steps with retrospective effect to prevent exploitation. The investigation by my department has been completed, and documents of importance are now in the hands of the police. It will not be the first time that Mr. Wainer is summoned to appear in court; nor will it be the first time that he may be found guilty. However, I think that if he is found guilty now, we must ask the courts to give serious consideration to more serious penalties than those which have so far been applied.

The question of how people can be afforded further protection is receiving attention from the Fouché Commission. I am awaiting their report before I elaborate on this matter any further.

The hon. member for Omaruru made a few very interesting proposals here. I just want to assure him that each of those proposals are acceptable to my department.

Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at 14h15.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. Chairman, I shall try to dispose of the important speeches of hon. members as quickly as possible. The hon. member for Omaruru raised three matters. He asked us to advertise the house-ownership scheme through the building societies. I agree with that, and we should like to do so, for we attach great value to the house-ownership scheme through the building societies since this also involves the private industry to a greater extent in the provision of houses, something which we consider essential, as everyone knows. He also requested that we should increase the amount in savings investments on which a subsidy is paid by building societies from R6 000 to R10 000. This is a matter which I shall request my department to investigate. The hon. member also wanted to know whether we could not assist the public with building plans. I want to say at once that my department informs me that we should very much like to be of assistance to the public with building plans which we have at our disposal. Any member of the public who wishes to see our building plans with the object of establishing whether he is able to use them, is welcome to apply to our regional offices.

†The hon. member for Sea Point apologized for his absence this afternoon. He raised several interesting points. One was that he was concerned that rents were rising faster than the rate of inflation or the rate of increase in the cost of living. I want to assure him that that is not generally the position. I admit that it does happen in exceptional and individual cases, but not as a rule. The hon. member for Green Point will know that in the Green Point/Sea Point area we investigated the situation. We conducted investigations in regard to approximately 30 blocks of flats and we found that over a three-year period the increase was 21%, which means an increase rate of 7% annually, whereas the cost of living increased, as we know, at a rate of 11% per annum. I therefore want to point out to the hon. member that this is not something to be concerned about.

*The hon. member for Somerset East raised a very important question concerning housing for the infirm aged. This is a matter which is of deep concern to us. In 1974-’75 we made an amount of R7,75 million available for this purpose for Whites and for Coloureds. Last year we appropriated approximately R9 million, and we hope to be able to maintain expenditure at the same rate this year. However, I want to admit that there is a great backlog which has to be eliminated. I want to give the assurance that as soon as our fund position has improved we shall attempt to expedite the provision of this important service to our infirm aged as much as possible.

The hon. member for Pinetown raised quite a different matter in a speech for which I want to thank him—it was a constructive, highly-intelligent speech. I should have liked to have dealt with all the aspects of it in detail, but I want to tell him briefly that what he sees in Mitchell’s Plain is the result of the statutory amendments effected last year, which made it possible for us to provide facilities together with the dwellings, and to pay for them. It is our intention to apply the same principle wherever we make a start with new housing schemes.

In Mariannhill as well?

In the case of Mariannhill there is a problem, for the scheme has already been commenced. An attempt is however being made, in consultation with the local authorities concerned to establish community facilities as rapidly as possible. I shall have something more to say about this in regard to another matter.

I want to point out to the hon. member, in all fondness, that he cannot compare the establishment of a White township with a site-and-service scheme. In the case of the establishment of a White township, although the authorities only supply the services, while the owner develops the township as far as housing is concerned, the houses are erected in accordance with minimum requirements which are prescribed by the town planning boards or whatever other bodies may be involved. With a site-and-service scheme it is of course a problem that no standards are prescribed, and that the facilities which are established only meet the absolutely essential requirements. This of course gives rise to the development of slum conditions. In terms of legislation controlling this matter, this simply cannot happen with township development. I want to thank the hon. member for Somerset East very much for his contribution. His points are receiving attention, and we shall keep in touch with him.

†The hon. member for Sea Point wanted to know what was being done about the infrastructure at certain places and he mentioned Mitchell’s Plain specifically. He mentioned telephones as an example. We have been in touch with the Department of Posts and Telecommunications. They promised to give it special attention. We will, of course, maintain contact with the department about this. I would suggest that the hon. member and other hon. members who would like to have more information, should contact the local director of telephone services here in the Cape Peninsula.

I want to tell the hon. member that as far as transport is concerned, we have an assurance from the S.A. Railways that they will do their very best to complete the passenger railway line to that area by March 1978. The work is already in progress. There is already a bus service. The township has its own bus service. That bus service can really meet the needs of the population of that area. At present there is a temporary service, but quite soon there will be a fuller service which will also supply transport on Sundays, which is all that is lacking at the moment.

The hon. member also raised the question of the decontrol of flats. He specially wanted to know whether tenants would be notified of applications for decontrol. I want to tell him that we do not do this. We do not find it necessary. Perhaps it would be unwise, because in many cases where tenants are elderly and not well endowed, a notification that there is an attempt to decontrol their flats, may bring about unnecessary concern and worry. We as a department look at every case with the greatest care and the greatest solicitude. I give personal attention to every application that is received. I can assure the hon. member that the decontrolling of rent-controlled premises is kept at an absolute minimum. It is a very rare occurrence, because we do have the interests of the tenants at heart.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister what criteria he applies in deciding to decontrol?

I will let the hon. member have the information at a later stage. I must now get a move on.

*Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Maraisburg raised very interesting matters, inter alia, the question of community facilities at Newclare, Eldorado Park and Lenasia. The reply which I furnished for other hon. members also applies in this regard. Then he spoke in particular of Vanwyksrus. All that I know about the matter is that the Department of Planning and the Environment instituted a very thorough investigation into the matter. The department established a special committee to undertake the investigation. We are now awaiting a report from the Department of Planning and the Environment. At this stage the Department of Community Development has no say whatsoever in the matter. It is a matter for the Department of Planning and the Environment.

I am so pleased and I still have a little time left to speak to the hon. member for Overvaal, for he raised an extremely important matter. I said that we have now, on the Witwatersrand, proclaimed a further 9 000 ha of land for Coloureds and Indians: 5 900 ha of land for Coloureds, and 3 100 for Indians. This is going to mean—and here the hon. member really did the communities concerned a service—that a large number of Whites will have to be uprooted. They will have to be moved out of their areas. In all cases of removal this department is very concerned that this should be done with the least deprivation and the least possible inconvenience. My hon. friend realizes that this is a major task. My department calculated that it must cost approximately R20 million to compensate all these people who will have to move in order to make this housing scheme possible for what they will have to sacrifice. I can assure him that we will expropriate the land of these people as quickly as possible so that the uncertainty can disappear and so that they can establish themselves elsewhere. The only problem is the tremendously large amount of money which is involved. Subject to that consideration I can, however, give him the assurance that these people will receive the greatest possible sympathy and the greatest possible expedition of a solution to their problem.

†My hon. friend, the hon. member for Jeppe, raised the question of housing in Lenasia. I have a long list here, which I shall gladly make available to him, of the improvements that have been effected recently in the availability of stands and other amenities in Lenasia. Great delays were experienced as a result of the dolomite problem of which my honourable friend is aware. That has now been overcome and I want to tell him that apart from the area of 3 100 ha to which I have referred, various extensions in Lenasia itself are now becoming available. I shall give him the details in writing, if he does not mind, and he can then show those details to anybody who is interested. Provision is also being made for development by private Indian entrepreneurs.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he will reply to the points I made in regard to Thomsville?

I shall deal with that now. I would not dream of ending my reply to the hon. member’s speech quite so abruptly. The hon. member raised the question of Thomsville. Let me say at once that Thomsville is not an area of which the Department of Community Development is proud. It was very much an emergency action on the part of the department for the very poor, those Indians who at the time were living in the most deplorable conditions as a result of which we had to do something urgently, something which would at the same time be within their means and within the formula of the subsidies we could give them. The result is that there are Indians living in that area in two-roomed homes for which they pay only R1,58 per week, I think. Others pay only R5,11 for a four-roomed house. However, those houses are shells. They are not the sort of homes I should like to see erected. They are the sort of homes which we, now that we have had some experience in this field, deplore. I can assure my honourable friend that when I went to Lenasia a year ago as Minister of Indian Affairs, I discussed Thomsville with the then Secretary for Community Development and he said at the time that it was going to be cleaned up. I am glad to say that tenders will now be called for, I think on the 29th of this month, for the improvement of Thomsville, for the building of latrines and for generally cleaning Thomsville up and making it suitable for habitation. It will cost us approximately R250 000 to attend just to this small area.

*The hon. member for Hercules gave a lecture on a very interesting discovery in the building industry in respect of leaking roofs. It deals with a particular kind of screw which can be used. We have investigated the matter very thoroughly and found that it is a first-class screw and that it satisfies all the requirements which the hon. member for Hercules claimed it would satisfy. He did not exaggerate the merits of that screw. The only difficulty is that the screw is too expensive. We really cannot afford to use such a screw in our roofs, for these screws cost 35 cents each. That is a little too expensive. However, it is an idea which is worthwhile developing further. I hope that my hon. friend will tell the persons in question to go into the matter further and to see whether they cannot make it any cheaper, for then we would really be interested in it. In spite of all the merits of the screw, it will not, unfortunately, be possible to use it at its present cost. This is according to the experts to whom the matter was referred.

The hon. member for Durban North, in a very constructive speech, referred to the problem of servants and others who occupy White areas in terms of the Group Areas Act. The hon. member raised a problem which is causing all of us concern. My colleague, the Minister of Justice and of Police, also discussed this matter yesterday. The public does not realize what risks it incurs by allowing unknown and uncertificated—if I may call them that, people to remain unlawfully in their backyards as servants who are not registered as lodgers, or whatever. We already have reason to believe that this is one of the methods, although not perhaps so much in the Cape Peninsula, by means of which terrorists succeed in infiltrating into South Africa and concealing themselves here. As the Minister responsible for the application of the Group Areas Act, I want to associate myself with the appeal made by the Minister of Justice to the public of South Africa please to ensure that they do not allow anyone to remain in their backyards or on their premises unlawfully. They are playing with fire, and are running a risk if they do this. It is not in the interests of South Africa either. The Department of Bantu Administration and Development has indicated that it is willing to help legalize those people who can be legalized. In the interests of their own safety I want to make an appeal to the public to heed what the hon. the Minister of Justice said.

Another good speech for which I am grateful, came from an unexpected quarter. We really do not have many constructive contributions from that quarter; that is why I readily acknowledge such a contribution when it occurs. I am referring to the speech made by the hon. member for Rondebosch, in which he referred to inexpensive accommodation. We are instituting a scientific technical investigation into the construction of an inexpensive house. It will not be the core house which we discussed earlier this year. It will be a proper house which can be more inexpensively finished off and which can subsequently be extended in order to maintain a higher standard. It is a proper structure which cannot develop into a shanty or slum dwelling. We have already made a great deal of progress with this investigation, and we are soon—we only have to decide where—whether here in the Cape or in Durban—going to erect the first 30 trial dwellings of this nature. I would be pleased if the hon. members on both sides of the House would take a look at them and express their opinions of those houses, for we should very much like to make a success of them. This is an imperative need in the interests of the poorest of our community. The hon. member also asked what provision we are making in our housing and in our counteracting of the squatter danger, for those people who move into our cities lawfully because they are required there. We discussed this aspect during the debate on the Prevention of Illegal Squatting Act. I want to repeat that an agreement has been reached with local authorities that 37½% of the amount made available for accommodation will be spent on the establishment of new houses for people on the waiting list, as well as for new arrivals, while a further 37½% will be spent on accommodation for squatters. The other 25% is spent on the resettlement of people of whom by far the most are living in deplorable conditions today.

The hon. member also asked whether we should not devote more attention to the decentralization of economic development in order to prevent the Cape Peninsula, for example, from being inundated to such an extent. In this regard I am in full agreement with the hon. member. The town of Atlantis, although near Cape Town, is in reality a decentralization attempt. We are making fine progress and 600 houses have already been completed. Tenders will soon be called for a further 1 200. An interesting fact is that approximately 60 industrialists have already purchased land in the vicinity of Atlantis, which will ensure that the town will expand and that there will be work for the inhabitants of Atlantis. I could just mention that there are other areas as well, inter alia, Beaufort West, which are also recognized as growth points for the employment of Coloureds. In other words, what the hon. member for Rondebosch said did not fall on deaf ears. We heard him, as it were, long before he spoke. Nevertheless, I am grateful for the interesting contribution which the hon. member made. My hon. friend the hon. member for Langlaagte, made a very interesting speech in respect of what we can do to enable the inhabitants of sub economic housing complexes to become owners of houses, particularly as their conditions improve. It is in fact our policy, and I can give the hon. member the assurance, that in the case of Crown Gardens in his constituency we have already decided—the message is on its way to him—that we will make it possible for them to buy there. Hon. members must definitely not get the impression now that we are going to sell all our subeconomic housing units. This kind of housing unit exists to meet the actual needs of our people who are too poor to afford economic accommodation. It will always be the policy of this department to retain an adequate number of these units so that we can provide accommodation to those who are so under-privileged that they cannot afford economic accommodation.

The hon. member for South Coast discussed the period between the proclamation of a group area and its development. This is in fact a problem, and I have here an entire series of reasons which I can enumerate as to why delays occur. I want to assure the hon. member that those problems can in fact be overcome and, as matters are at present, we can in most cases dispose of all the complicated particulars within the reduced period of two years. If possible, we will reduce this even further. In other words, progress has been made in this regard as well.

My friend, the hon. member for Krugersdorp, made a very interesting speech on Indian housing. I can only tell the hon. member that no less than R16 million plus has been appropriated for Indian housing in the estimates this year. Once again a tremendous effort is being made. I do not like comparisons, but the needs are not always the same. However, if we appropriate money for the Whites, for housing on this basis, then it would not be the approximate R40 million which it is today. We would then have to appropriate R90 million for the Whites. We are therefore doing our best for the Indians. I feel as strongly about the need of the Indians as I feel about the need of the Coloureds, particularly in the Cape. As far as the resettlement of businesses is concerned, this is of course one of the thorny problems with which this department has to contend. However, this is done only when it is essential and is in the interests of the general community and of the Indian community. The test in the first place there is to avoid race friction and to clear up slum areas. In this regard I am thinking in particular of a little matter which was discussed yesterday in the Other Place, i.e. the position in Swartruggens in the Western Transvaal. The Indian residential area there is one of the ugliest slums I have ever seen in my life. It has been completely cleared. The Indians are sincerely grateful to us for the new business area which they have in that little town. They are flourishing in decent circumstances. This is our policy everywhere. viz. to avoid racial friction, to clear up slum areas and poor conditions in residential areas, and to ensure that people will not be worse off through a resettlement of the business community than they were in their former circumstances. It has really struck me that the members of my department are exceptionally careful to ensure that these requirements are complied with. In the short time I have been in this department, I find that even when Indians resist such a move, it is not long before they return to us and say: “Thank you very much, we now see that you looked after our interests”. This, then, is my reply to my hon. friend. The matter falls under another Vote, but I just want to tell the hon. member for Orange Grove that what I have stated here in general also applies to the towns which he mentioned.

†The hon. member for Berea raised the matter of Cato Manor. This is a difficult matter. Great emotional excitement is involved, especially on the part of the Indian community. I have promises that the matter would be given careful consideration. It has had careful consideration already. As a result of further representations we have decided to go into it for a third time. We do want to find a just solution to this very complicated question. I am confident that we will find a solution to this problem before we meet again in January.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister briefly whether he is in a position to confirm or to contradict the article which appeared in the Sunday Times in which it was pointed out that the hon. the Prime Minister would be asked to act as an arbiter on behalf of the Indians?

Of course. It is public knowledge that a statement was issued after the recent meeting between the hon. the Prime Minister, me and a deputation of the Indian Council. The matter was raised at the meeting and the hon. the Prime Minister is having a further look into the matter.

Does that mean that the matter is at the level of the Prime Minister?

The matter is at Cabinet level. The Prime Minister is, of course, the head of the Cabinet. The hon. member also raised the matter of Coloured housing in Durban. I want to assure the hon. member that the shortage of 4 000 Coloured houses, to which he referred, is causing the Government concern. We are doing our very best with the greatest speed to catch up. In the larger Durban complex we have 962 houses for Coloureds under construction. A further 1936 are being planned and are almost under construction. We expect that by 31 March 1977 2 652 homes for Coloured people will be completed or under construction. By that time of course other homes as well will be under construction. So, we are very much aware of the requirements of our Coloured people and the needs of our Coloured people also in Natal and in Johannesburg, where we are making provision now for more Coloured housing. Our concern is not limited to the Western Cape. I hope that my friend will also derive encouragement from the figures I have just given.

*Sir, I want to thank everyone heartily. I think the Whips will be quite satisfied with me because I have finished four minutes before the time. I say again thank you very much to everybody for a very interesting discussion, and I hope it will also prove to be a very fruitful discussion in view of the problems we are experiencing.

Votes agreed to.

Vote No. 36.—“Tourism”:

I hope hon. members will not in discussing this Vote, undertake another tour amongst the squatters’ towns.

Mr. Chairman, may I have the privilege of the half hour? Sir, notwithstanding your comment, it is my intention this afternoon to do a tour of all the platteland dorps of the country and in fact to ask the Minister this afternoon whether he will not see that he does something to encourage South Africans to do just that, to tour the platteland dorps and to look at their own country.

Sir, South Africa is facing many problems at the moment, not only those of security, whether from external aggression or threats to internal security, but most particularly those of an economic nature. The latest figures of our foreign exchange reserves show that we have dropped from a situation where we had reserves totalling R1 221 million three years ago to only R838 million, and this drop of 28% is in spite of the three or four devaluations in the last three years. Sir, I believe that the hon. the Minister of Tourism has his part to play in doing something about keeping up our foreign reserves. Through Satour and other organizations he brought into this country during the last year 730 000 odd visitors, and it is estimated that they spent R275 million in this country, which goes a long way towards helping to balance our payments problem. This has, in fact, helped to balance the books, but I believe that he has only balanced them. That is all he really achieved. I must say that I deplore the lack of authentic statistics, but the most authoritative estimates which I have been able to get, show that something like 700 000 South African tourists left South Africa during 1975 and it is estimated that they spent R250 million of good South African money overseas. That is why I say that all the hon. the Minister has done is to balance the books. I believe that tourism is a sphere from which South Africa could earn much-needed and valuable foreign currency. The effect on our balance of payments of tourists leaving South Africa is obvious. If this were saved for only one year, it could have a marked effect on our balance of payments situation. Now, I do not want to be a spoilsport for one moment. My colleagues know my weakness for overseas travel, but I believe that it would be patriotic if those South Africans who are planning overseas holidays during the next year, were to decide that during that year they will spend their holidays at home in South Africa instead of going overseas. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that his department should promote, as a matter of urgency, a “see South Africa year”. For this I believe he would have to get the co-operation of the tourist bureaux, the local authorities with their publicity associations, the travel agents, all the carriers, not only the bus-owners, but also the S.A. Airways and the S.A. Railways, as well as such bodies as the National Parks Board, the Natal Parks Board and the Provincial authorities. But I believe that the initiative must come from this Minister and from his department. Perhaps a little later in this year the hon. the Minister could organize a seminar to promote this whole idea.

When I say that it would be patriotic for South Africans to stay at home next year, I do so not only for financial reasons. I also believe that a better awareness of our wonderful country, of its beauties as well as its people, will help to build a stronger love for and a loyalty towards South Africa.

I believe that one of the things we have to encourage our people to do when they visit other parts of the country, is to meet the locals. Let the young Afrikaners from the platteland meet the young English-speaking persons on the beaches of Natal. Let the youngsters from the beaches of Natal in turn go to the platteland and let them see the young Afrikaners in their environment of open veld. This would provide them with a better opportunity of understanding each other. This is not an idea which has started here today; it is an idea which began, I believe, in the United States with a “stay at home” campaign and I believe that Canada had a similar campaign. I understand, too, that France is promoting a similar one at present. I do not believe we need fear international repercussions or that other countries will take action against South Africa if we were to ask our people to tour South Africa during the next year and not to go overseas. I believe we would have to accept a slogan and I suggest that that slogan should be: “See South Africa.” I believe one has to promote this concept of a “See South Africa-Year” most vigorously. Such a campaign would have to be promoted by the department and by related bodies. As I have said before, however, the department must take the lead. We had the privilege earlier this session, at the invitation of the hon. the Minister, to see a very excellent film produced by his department which showed the natural beauty and other attractions South Africa has to offer.

Such as Elizabeth Taylor in the Kruger Park.

She is not a South African attraction, but she was certainly very attractive in a South African setting. That excellent film can be used to foster the idea which I have put into the hon. the Minister’s mind. Such a film should be divided into three- or four-minute spots or it should be divided with a view to propagating a region at a time. Such sections should then be shown regularly on television with the slogan “See South Africa”. I can see what the hon. the Minister’s reaction is. This must not be considered as commercial advertising but as something which is being done in the interest of South Africa, in the interest of promoting a better knowledge of our country and a greater love for and patriotism towards our country. The hon. the Minister’s department should also advertise on the radio—certainly, parts of the sound-track of the film could be used for that purpose. Advertisements could also be placed in newspapers and periodicals. There is an item covering publicity in the estimates. I do not believe, however, that the amount provided there would be enough to undertake a task such as this. I am not saying that such a task should be undertaken during this financial year, but provision could be made for it in the next financial year.

Such a campaign would require the cooperation of all the persons and organizations concerned with tourism in this country. In the case of carriers, this would include not only the private coach-owners, but the S.A. Airways, for instance, would have to be asked to extend their air hotel scheme. The S.A. Railways would have to be asked to improve and to extend their facilities too. The first thing we could ask the Railways to do is to install some form of commentary on their major trains. In this connection I think of the Drakensberg Express, the Trans-Natal, the Blue Train and the Orange Express. Persons travelling on these trains could then plug in to this commentary or listen to an amplifier describing the regions as they are being traversed. Hotels and other accommodation establishments would have to play their part too. They would have to be encouraged to provide an adequate range of accommodation at reasonable prices. We have some tremendously good accommodation in this country but it is very highly priced. We also have some shockingly bad accommodation and that not even at reasonable prices.

In addition, we would have to look at the position of caravan parks and camping sites. These facilities are completely inadequate if we are to embark on such a programme. However, I want to refer specifically to caravan sites. I was disturbed to find that there is only one caravan site available for every 3½ caravans in South Africa. This is a bad state of affairs. If we are to encourage local tourism, something will have to be done about this. It would appear that the price of land is discouraging to the extension of caravan parks. The hon. the Minister, although it is not directly his concern, must use his influence within the Cabinet and in other places to see that further accommodation is provided. Local authorities will have to co-operate. The publicity associations must publicize their own towns and environments. In this connection a suggestion that I want to make is that the hon. the Minister’s department should persuade local authorities to erect signs at the entrances to towns or villages—or ‟plattelandse dorpe”, as you put it, Sir—stating that they have a publicity association and indicating exactly where it is situated. Let such signs be prominent and easily readable, so that the publicity associations there can be found.

I can assure the hon. member that that is being done.

I am very glad to hear it. Last, but not least, I believe that the hon. the Minister is going to need the co-operation of the travel agents. I can hear my travel agent complaining now that I am taking the bread out of his mouth, but I believe that travel agents can cash in on a campaign such as this. They do not only have to make their money from overseas tours. This whole scheme, if it cannot get the co-operation of the travel agents, will flop. I believe that the hon. the Minister must get hold of the Association of South African Travel Agents and that they must be included in the planning. They will, however, have to take a good hard look at themselves and also at the facilities and the tours which are offered in this country. Through the good offices of the hon. the Minister, I have been supplied with a tour information manual for South Africa for 1976. It is called: Guide to Internal Travel Facilities. In this guide one will find information on tours ranging from 27 days at a cost of R1 173 right down to a morning excursion around Durban for R1,75. A full description of the range of what is available is contained in this guide. I believe, however, that we will have to take a good look at what is being charged for some of these tours. On page 13 details are given of a tour lasting 25 days starting from Johannesburg, a tour which takes in South West Africa and the Etosha pan, and the price for this tour—the hotels involved are standard; they are not luxury hotels—is R516. A tour of 23 days starting from Durban and taking in the Garden Route and the Kruger National Park, again with overnight stops in standard hotels, double accommodation being provided—not single accommodation—costs R618. I believe these prices are exorbitant. It is no wonder that no South African will go on these tours.

If one looks at an overseas tour, which includes the air fare from Johannesburg to Europe, lasting 26 days over the peak season, in December, the price is R899. One cannot compare them. Out of season, in February, a 24-day tour overseas costs R799, which includes full accommodation. Local tours provide only for bed and breakfast. One can go overseas, visiting Amsterdam, London, Rome and Berlin, as well as a ski resort and have two weeks of skiing and all the necessary facilities thrown in for R599. South Africans are not going to pay such high prices for local tours. I know that this brochure is aimed at foreign tourists coming to this country, but I believe that they are going to have to look to South Africans’ needs as well. I know from my own experience that tourists are considered fair game, but one cannot compare this with what one can get overseas. If one looks further at this guide, one finds that a 13-day tour from Johannesburg, taking in the Kruger National Park, again in standard hotels, double-room accommodation, costs R340, and that a 10-day tour from Durban, again taking in the Kruger National Park, standard accommodation in double rooms, costs R245. One can fly to Argentina, spend 10 days skiing at Bariloche, with ski equipment and lessons included, all for R647. One can Fly to Athens, and take in Istanbul, for ten days for R648. I believe that our prices for local tours are highly inflated and, for the success of the scheme which I suggested to the hon. the Minister, he must consult with the carriers, with the accommodation establishments, the tour organisers and the travel agents and get them together to bring these prices into line so that they are competitive and we can attract not only South Africans to tour our own country, rather than be seduced into going to overseas countries, but also that we will be able to provide a better service for our foreign visitors. There is a side effect which will be a “bonsella” in this scheme and that is that I believe that we will then build up our own tourist industry, build up the accommodation and other facilities which are needed to accommodate the people who will come, we shall build it up to such an extent that the prices will be lowered, but most important of all, we will then be able to build up a proper tourist industry in this country which will be geared to cater for those foreign tourists who will come to South Africa in the future.

Last year I spoke to the hon. the Minister, as in previous years I have to his predecessors, about the growing number of non-Whites who are travelling. The more affluent non-Whites are travelling overseas. They are going overseas because of the lack of facilities in South Africa and, of course, also to escape the Government’s policy of apartheid. Many of them have left South Africa in the past to go to Angola, Mozambique and other neighbouring countries, but today we find that even Rhodesia is suspect. They will consequently now be compelled to go overseas unless we can persuade them to stay here.

I believe that there must be a determined and conscious effort to provide—and I say “provide”, not “improve” because there are no facilities to “improve”—facilities for holidays for non-White persons. There is a beach on the False Bay coast for Black people, but there are no facilities there whatsoever. A little later I shall be talking to the hon. the Minister privately about that. The few facilities that are available are totally inadequate, and that is why these people are going overseas. I wish to refer the hon. the Minister particularly to recommendations Nos. 174, 175, 176 and 177 of the Theron Commission report. The UP supports those recommendations wholeheartedly and we urge the hon. the Minister to implement them as soon as possible. No mention was made of these specific recommendations in the Government’s White Paper, however. I sincerely hope the Government will accept them and that the hon. the Minister and his colleagues in the Cabinet will do their best to implement those recommendations immediately.

The introduction of international hotels has not solved the problem of non-White travellers in this country. What they need are ordinary hotels, rest camps and caravan parks. The non-Whites are not buying caravans because there are no caravan parks for them. If those parks could be provided, the non-Whites would buy caravans. Those hotels and rest camps are needed on all the major tourist routes. I also believe that caravan, camping and hotel accommodation must be provided at all tourist resorts and at all nature and other reserves. I know it is not the function of the hon. the Minister to provide these facilities, but I believe that he can go a long way towards encouraging the provision of these facilities—by private enterprise in collaboration with the bodies concerned—at these resorts and reserves. I believe that he must encourage non-White South Africans to share in the beauty and bounty of our wonderful country. They must share in the “See South Africa Year” with us. I believe that as a side-effect this would help to foster a greater understanding of and love for South Africa and enhance the non-Whites’ patriotism and loyalty towards our common fatherland.

There is a final point I want to touch on in the minute or two I still have left, and this concerns the training of guides and couriers. I am sure the hon. the Minister’s attention has been drawn to that terrible television programme which showed an absolutely irresponsible courier talking to a bus-load of visitors from overseas, and to all the terrible and irresponsible things she had to say. For the hon. the Minister’s plan to succeed, I believe it is imperative that we have qualified, properly trained and responsible guides and couriers. Overseas these people are registered and licensed by an authority, and I think the time has come for us to do the same thing in this country. I am glad to learn, from the reply the hon. the Minister gave to a question a little while ago, that the question of a training course for these people has been taken up. I believe we have to go further, however. The hon. the Minister must now consult with the Association of South African Travel Agents with a view to arranging that these people be licensed to ply their trade. I do not believe that the hon. the Minister and his department are the right people to license them. I think this should be done by the organization itself. It is up to the members of that organization to control their own organization. If they will not do so, however, I believe the hon. the Minister and his department will have to act.

In conclusion let me say that we in the UP put forward this idea to the hon. the Minister in all good faith and with the object of helping South Africa by creating a better awareness and understanding of our great, wonderful and beautiful country and the facilities it offers. I commend the plan to the hon. the Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I should be dishonest with myself if I failed to appreciate the way in which the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South handled the introduction to this debate on behalf of his side of the House. We want to express our appreciation for the fact that they, too, emphasized the right aspects. We could hear from the hon. member’s speech that he was making an effort to serve tourism in South Africa and exclude politics from this matter just as we believe the department too, should develop without political interference.

There is only one point on which I can differ with him. Whereas he proposed that we should make next year a “Tour South Africa” year, I should have liked to make it longer and represent South Africa to our people as the top tourist country in future. I do not say this with the sole aim of encouraging loyalty towards the beauty of our South African landscape but also in view of vulnerability of the tourist industry abroad.

As a result of the energy crisis of 1974, European countries in particular realized with a shock that the energy crisis had resulted in a drop of about 40% in their intake of tourists. We in South Africa sustained a similar shock, but fortunately to a lesser extent because the drop here only amounted to 28%. Fortunately we experienced a recovery later which left us with an overall gain of 24%.

Since the emphasis is now on domestic tourism, in these frenetic times we are living in—times in which most of us have become a generation of clock-watchers—we must accept that everyone who allows himself the time to go on holiday must also plan so as to make optimum use of his two or three weeks of holiday. Perhaps one could take this further by saying that he has to plan how to spend that phase of his life when he is old, but still enjoys good health and no longer works, inter alia, by moving around South Africa freely so as to visit places of interest throughout the whole of South Africa. It is true that we in South Africa are blessed with a country of great natural beauty. We have areas of the greatest historical interest. We have a wealth of minerals and rock formations. We have so many that only judicious planning will enable us to see it all in the space of a lifetime.

The hon. member who took part in the debate before me referred to the Satour film which was recently released—A World in one country. I am told that the total expenditure entailed by the manufacture of this film was a mere R55 000. When one considers that as soon as the film has completed its full cycle about 200 million people throughout the world will have had the privilege of seeing it, one realizes that this is a ridiculously low price to pay for something of this kind. The expenditure incurred in making the film comes to about 0,02 cents a person. This is the price at which we can make South Africa known to the world. I do not believe that any of us who had the privilege of seeing the film has a sufficient command of language to do justice to the beauty of our country as depicted in that film. I believe that everyone of us realized that no one in the world will ever see more beautiful scenes than that.

It is not only we who think so, because the film has already won its fifth award. In my opinion the two most important awards were those won in Britain: “World in one country—one gold award, British sponsored film festival, Brighton”, and in the U.S.A.: “United States industrial film festival—first place, gold camera award for World in one country presented to South African Tourist Corporation for outstanding creativity in the production of audiovisual communications and international competition.” We also want to convey our congratulations to Satour and to Mr. Da Silva. We want to say to them: “Carry on with the good work. ”

When one thinks about this film and realizes that only a few aspects have been filmed to show us the wealth of South Africa, one also begins to realize that similar aspects of other parts of our country could be filmed. One realizes, too, that one has overlooked similar aspects of other parts of our country or has looked at them in the wrong way, possibly because one is a member of a generation of clock-watchers. When one considers the success of a film like this, one wonders whether the circle could not be narrowed, so that one could speak of “a world in one district”. This is not a vain eulogy of a town or district, because what I have in mind is in my constituency. I refer to the district of Harrismith because I think that a film entitled “a world in one district” could be made in that district. Sir, it is there that the grain and the stock farmer, both large-scale and extensive farmers, farm alongside one another. It is there where one finds sheep, in a region producing the biggest wool clip in the country, but also the region in which the wool is processed into the blanket which we all find colourful. That is where the Platberg is situated which has become world-renowned for its gruelling Platberg race. Furthermore, it is a region affording sufficient freedom to the glider, so that international glider championships may be held there. It is there that the river rises in the mountains bordering on Natal and it is there, too, that the mighty waters pour into the Sterkfontein dam, to be channelled to the Vaal Triangle. It is in this region that one comes across the longest petrified tree—it is 40 metres long—a few hundred metres from the plantation where new plantings are still being made today. It is there that the routes cross, but unfortunately it is there too, that the tourist drives past. I therefore think it is time that we in this House, too, should ask that our people bear in mind once again that we in South Africa cannot be holiday-goers but that we should be tourists of South Africa. We therefore want to ask the department to establish a National Tourist Bureau at Harrismith too, in order to serve the Eastern Free State and large parts of Natal.

It is true that domestic tourism means about R334 million to us annually. When one considers that this is almost R1 million per day spent by the domestic tourist in South Africa and that this is not only channelled to the hotels, but that the money of the tourist follows a wide curve and one calls to mind that about 25 cents of each rand go towards wages and salaries, 45% towards the purchase of food and drink, about 15% towards breakages which still cause disruptions in hotels. We also call to mind the entertainers and the profit which goes to the owners and which, to a certain extent, is channelled to the State coffers. One then realizes that this is really a sphere which we shall have to take care of in the future.

I think that one of the sectors in our overall structure which will have to make a greater contribution to cause domestic tourism to come into its own is that of our domestic travel agents. It is they who are more orientated towards the foreign tourists and forget that the majority, who are always available, are also in South Africa. I believe that the smaller domestic travel agents could form a group with the smaller hotels and co-operate so that the domestic tourist could open up the routes which the foreign tourist could follow. It is a fact that nature possesses a charm for all of us. We know that in America nature, the rural areas, are sought after. I came upon a short poem. Unfortunately I have forgotten the name of the author and I may make a mistake here and there, but it goes more or less as follows—

May all of us, including those in the cities, derive a similar joy from the beauty of nature in South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon. member for Bethlehem on his fine speech, which he concluded in such a striking way. When one concludes one’s speech in such a way, it always finds acceptance. I also want to agree with his statement that the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South opened this debate very well. One shares the concern of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South about the need for facilities for non-White tourists. However, one must bear in mind that it is only now that the non-Whites have really begun to travel in South Africa and that their numbers will increase. The hon. member referred to the recommendations of the Theron Commission in the sphere of tourism. I am very much in favour of recommendation No. 174 and I believe that that recommendation can be attended to in time and that a great deal can be achieved thereby.

The hon. member for Bethlehem quite rightly said that the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South did not bring politics into the debate, but the hon. member for Sandton, who is unfortunately not present at the moment, saw fit to drag politics into tourism when, with reference to a question he asked on 17 June, to which he was provided with a written reply by the hon. the Minister, he conducted an interview with The Cape Times in the course of which, among other things, he made the statement that the Government was ignoring the Bantu, Coloured and Indian tourists. In the course of that interview the hon. member referred to a survey carried out by the Department of Tourism, a survey which was in fact based on the holiday movements of people in our cities. This is the first report of its kind, but the hon. member for Sandton made the statement that reference was not made to non-Whites in that report. As I have said, this was the first report of its kind, and surely it is logical that the White city dweller, who at present does the most travelling in the country and participates in tourism most, will be considered first so that pattern may be established. If, then, the hon. member protests that the non-Whites are being ignored, then surely I can protest that the rural tourist is being ignored. As I have said, this is the first report of its kind. This is the first effort being made by the department and in time this survey will be expanded to include the rural tourist in our towns and also, in the nature of things, the Bantu, Coloured and Indian tourist.

In the same interview, the hon. member for Sandton made the statement that in point of fact, this department and its tourist bureaux was only there for Whites. Surely that is not true. Every tourist bureau in our country is there for everyone to use. When a man walks into such a bureau, he will be served with the greatest friendliness and politeness irrespective of his race or colour and will be provided with brochures and any information he may require. It is a pity, therefore, that in an interview with a newspaper the hon. member for Sandton tried to drag politics into tourism.

I now want to deal with the real subject of my speech. I want to associate myself with what was said by the hon. member for Bethlehem with reference to the slow-down that occurred in tourism from the end of 1973 and during 1974. Fortunately, tourism in South Africa experienced an upswing shortly afterwards and the total number of tourists for 1975 shows an increase of 21% over the figure for 1974. In 1975 we had a record intake of 730 000 tourists. The question one immediately asks oneself is: What is the reason for this major success? I think we should convey our sincere congratulations to the department and everyone involved in tourism in South Africa on this success. The reason for the success is solely the dynamic and purposeful advertising and marketing process. Advertising and marketing are the two foundation stones of tourism. Without them one will get few tourists who perhaps take an interest and who naturally like to travel, but when it is a matter of mass tourism, in other words, attracting people to one’s country, then advertising and marketing are vital. Advertising is a matter of publicizing, and in my opinion, our department and everyone involved in this matter are unashamed to publicize South Africa. We in South Africa need not be ashamed to publicize this beautiful country. I should very much like to turn to domestic tourism, and to tourism at the local level. I think that far more could be done in this field by local authorities. I know that it costs money and that it involves an investment in advertising work, but if this is not done we simply shall not be able to publicize those regions and attractions and as a result people will not come to hear about them. The big question as far as tourism is concerned—as the Secretary of Tourism very strikingly put it recently—is: What is there for people to do? No one goes to a place unless he knows in advance what there is for him to do there. This is what local authorities and those responsible for tourism must indicate very clearly.

A while ago the hon. member for Bethlehem sang the praises of a part of the Free State, and I should like to mention the two outstanding supplements which recently appeared in Die Burger. I refer to the supplement of 28 April about the most beautiful part of the country, the Little Karoo, and the supplement of 9 June about the second most beautiful region, viz. the Garden Route. When one puts the Garden Route and the Little Karoo together, one gets the Southern Cape, or what is known in rugby language as SWD. Maybe we cannot play rugby, but we do have outstanding tourist attractions.

Perhaps the hon. member should also refer to S.W.A.

Mr. Chairman, we shall accept the invitation later. I want to compliment Die Burger on the two fine supplements which really have publicized the Little Karoo and the Garden Route very effectively. In the supplements, each town has the opportunity to publicize what is of interest in its area. The question that occurs to me now is: What becomes of these supplements? Are they only distributed in a limited area such as the greater Western Cape? Do other people in the rest of South Africa also get to see these supplements? I think that when we concentrate on advertising, we should not overlook such supplements which appear from time to time.

I am now referring to the marketing of the product, because this is what tourism really involved. One must be able to present the good things in the country and its environments and sell them to people so that they will visit those areas. I think that South Africa offers value to people in all respects. Naturally, when people come here it costs money, because they have to pay travelling expenses, they have to pay money here and they have to pay their costs of accommodation. It is a very expensive process. For this reason I feel that there should be something which could be offered to these people. I think we would be justified in saying that South Africa offers every tourist who comes here, value for his money. I want to say once again that this should also be the case at the local level, viz. in our development regions, towns and cities in which we must be geared to offering the tourist who goes there, and the domestic tourist as well, something which will represent value for his money.

After we have said and done all this, the question occurs: What does it all mean? It means that we earned R200 million in foreign exchange in 1974 and R275 million in 1975. In other words, the investment was made through the advertising, the product was sold and that foreign exchange was earned for the country. It also means that the people who came here began to see the conditions in the country and the situation of its people in a new and better light. Usually, some of these people who return to their countries are among our best and most important ambassadors. We do not bring them here solely with a view to their becoming our ambassadors, but this country, its people and environment usually impress these people so much that they cannot but be ambassadors for us. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is a pity that the hon. member who has just resumed his seat did not add that the South-western districts did at least win a match the other day as well. This country and rugby are indeed synonymous. I am not going to heap praise on the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South. This hon. member is very fond of speaking and I am afraid he might speak again. Hon. members on both sides of the House have mentioned the phenomenal progress made in the field or tourism. An amount of R274 million in foreign exchange entered the country last year. To put matters into perspective, I want to say that at the moment tourism is the fifth biggest earner of foreign exchange for South Africa. In terms of importance, tourism is therefore very high on the list.

Why is this exceptional success being achieved? One should give credit where credit is due. A year or two ago I was at a tourism congress. An overseas authority who spoke at that congress told the tourist agencies: “People, you must not be order-takers; you must be marketers.” That is exactly what this department has done in all its manifold aspects. The Secretary of the Department of Tourism is a marketer par excellence; he is a man who is selling South Africa, not only for its tourist attractions, but South Africa just as it is, because he loves the country. Satour with all its branches is rendering an outstanding service. Since its establishment, the Hotel Board, too, has done a phenomenal job through the grading of hotels in the country. There is no comparison between the standard of our hotels today and the standard ten years ago. These people have rendered a valuable service. People realize that we in South Africa are engaged in total war. As the hon. member for Oudtshoorn said, the Department of Tourism is also involved in this struggle, although not so obviously. I believe, as these people do, that one makes a friend of the man who is told that he should come here to see for himself, because very few people who leave here are not friends of South Africa. What is the aim of tourism? Tourism has a threefold aim. In the first instance it must bring money into the country. I have already had something to say about that. In the second instance, one wants to find out about and try to exercise an influence on what the tourist says when he leaves here. For this reason the department brings travel writers to South Africa. The department’s report quotes a few excerpts from the columns written about South Africa by these tavel writers. I quote the following from what Shann Davies wrote in The New York Travel Weekly—

That is what the people say. Therefore a lot depends on how we treat these people, and I think that they are extremely well treated by this department. I say that it depends on how well we treat them and what they see here, which determines what these people’s attitude towards South Africa will be when they return to their own country. I say that this department forms part of our defence against a total war which is being waged against South Africa, and from our side it is a defence of our country.

Before I conclude there is one small matter I should like to bring to the attention of the Minister. Sir, I am one of the hundreds of people who travel with a caravan. To my regret I must say that in the past I have had very unfortunate experiences at various so-called caravan parks which are advertised as caravan parks. It has happened to me that I have arrived at the caravan park of a town and found only a tap there.

Which might or might not work.

Yes. I think the time has come for me to appeal to the hon. the Minister to use his influence in this connection, and when I say this, I am quite aware that a few years ago the Department of Health laid down minimum standards for caravan parks. I am aware of those standards which were laid down, but no one applies those standards.

They are unable to.

There are the provinces that are concerned with this matter and private individuals, divisional councils, municipalities and the State are also concerned with it. I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to use his influence and hold discussions before long with the various administrators of the provinces or arrange a conference in order to consider whether these problems could not be eliminated. I do not think that caravan parks should be graded, but to me there are two kinds of caravan parks. The one is the so-called transit caravan park, where one can stay for a night along the route. Then there is the other one which is one’s destination and at which one wants to camp for a few days. I repeat that I do not think we should grade caravan parks, but I think that minimum standards should at least be laid down for a transit camp, and, in the second instance, for the kind of camp where one stays. I am not talking about luxury camps. Leave it to the private individuals to make their camps as luxurious as they can and leave it to them to advertise them, and I think it could quite justifiably be left to the caravan guides of the various automobile clubs or the travel guides of the department to indicate which are luxury caravan camps. But it must be the individual who does this.

I think we have reached the stage at which we owe it to the caravanning public that the minimum facilities at every caravan park which advertises itself as such must be guaranteed. As the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South said, we are at the stage at which the Coloureds and Blacks are also beginning to travel with caravans, and I agree with him that provision must be made for these people. I should have liked to say more about this, but I fear my time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, what alarms me is that so many of our young people today choose to visit overseas countries before they get to know our own country, and get to know our own country well. Few people, particularly amongst our young people, realize that we in South Africa have the biggest hole in the world to boast about, we have the biggest caves in the world, we have the biggest bird in the world, with the biggest egg in the world, we have the longest tunnel in the world and we have the best luxury train in the world. We have, in fact, the best country in the world and the best people in the world. What do we want to go overseas for? We should first learn to know our own country well before we go further afield.

I am very pleased to see, according to the latest report, that we received no less than 82 748 more tourists than during the same period in 1974. This means an increase of more than 21% and is most encouraging indeed. One should, of course, realize that it is also due to the devaluation of the rand which had made travelling in South Africa less expensive for overseas tourists. Tourism has unfortunately always been regarded as our Cinderella industry and now we are fortunately moving away from this idea. There are still travel agencies which believe that we do not have much to market, but one cannot agree with them when one considers what I have already said about South Africa. Our climatic conditions are ideal, possibly better than in most other countries. We have some of the best game reserves that one could ever wish to see. I believe, however, that we should strongly support the idea of the establishment of more nature and game reserves. So many people visit the Kruger National Park, of which we are rightly proud. However, if one goes to one of the smaller reserves, such as High Noon in the Western Cape on a public holiday, one finds queues and queues of motor cars with people who are trying to see everything that there is to be seen. This is only one of the smaller reserves and we should, as far as possible, motivate our people to establish more and more reserves to cater for our tourists. We in the Eastern Cape, particularly in the East London area, are toiling on the idea of establishing a large nature and game reserve in that area too, East London being one of the areas where we have an exceptionally fine climate.

At this stage I want to congratulate the department on the fine report which it has tabled. The three manuals in particular are some of the best I have seen. They are manuals which have been distributed this year, and fortunately and thanks to the department, these manuals have been made available timeously. The manual to the guidemap for the tourist is a wonderful booklet and the guidemap for the tourist is one of the best I have ever seen. The third pamphlet, a smaller booklet, is an accommodation guide for the tourist in South Africa. Hon. members received this as early as 20 February, and I have never seen anything better anywhere else. I want to thank and congratulate the department on these fine booklets. I also want to congratulate Mr. John da Silva, a dedicated man, the film director of the Tourist Corporation of South Africa, on the fine films which we have had the pleasure of seeing.

I am in full agreement with the formula for the marketing of tourism suggested by the department, viz. that we must provide three facilities which I believe are very important indeed. The first is hotel complexes, embracing caravan parks and recreational resorts. The second is motel complexes, embracing caravan parks, holiday resorts, restaurants, etc. The third is holiday resorts and other projects, comprising hotels, places of rest, picnic spots, restaurants, etc.

I would like to have had more to say on the subject of tourism as I am particularly interested in it. I believe that most of us in South Africa are interested in this particular industry. I repeat: it is our duty as South Africans to motivate and encourage people to come to our country. What is more important, let us encourage our own young people to see South Africa and get to know their own country first. It would be to their own advantage to do so.

Mr. Chairman, I find myself in a very strange position today, because I can only agree 100% with the appeal made by the hon. members for East London North and Pietermaritzburg South to our people in South Africa to make next year a “See South Africa” year. We should like to support that idea of theirs very strongly.

Various speakers have referred to the increase in tourism over the past year. Another very encouraging phenomenon which is mentioned in the annual report of the Department of Tourism is the co-operation in Southern Africa in the field of tourism. It is in tourism that we probably find the finest example of co-operation among Southern African States, co-operating to promote tourism in the subcontinent. This is done through Sartoc, the Southern African Regional Tourism Council, and I should like to quote a few excerpts to illustrate this fine co-operation among Southern African States. Paragraph 2 on page 2 of the report reads as follows—

There is a great deal more one could quote. There are also a number of references here which give us a fine example of how Southern African States are co-operating here to sell this fine part of Southern Africa to the world as tourist country. We trust that other Southern African States will also participate in Sartoc in the future in order to be able to sell Southern Africa to the world as tourist country with a greater degree of co-operation. Reference has also been made to file fact that in 1975, tourism earned R275 million for South Africa in foreign exchange, which makes it the fourth biggest earner of foreign exchange for South Africa. Of course, this earner of foreign exchange for South Africa uses no natural resources and leaves no big holes or unsightly mine dumps. In fact, the preservation of what is offered by the South African environment is the biggest guarantee that tourists from throughout the world will visit South Africa.

The hon. member for Smithfield referred to a letter written by one of the travel writers which was quoted in the report. I also want to refer to how Mr. Graham Vercoe, an Australian travel writer, summed up South Africa after a visit here in 1975. He said—

This is the impression of this fine country of ours formed by people who visit South Africa. The hon. member for Vanderbijlpark told me that we should not forget that one of these days the All Blacks will be in South Africa. The All Blacks will be accompanied by a great many supporters. I think that we in this House can express our confidence today that this large group of supporters will enjoy their visit to South Africa, too, and we also want to make an appeal to all South Africans to receive these spectators in their homes in a hospitable way when they visit South Africa, and to show them this beautiful country of ours. Probably there will not be sufficient accommodation in all the places where the All Blacks play matches, and I therefore think that on behalf of this House I can ask the public to receive the All Blacks in their homes so that they, too, can become acquainted with our genuine South African hospitality.

I also want to associate myself with the congratulations to Mr. Behrens and his small department. They deserve our highest praise and appreciation for the dynamic and scientific way in which South Africa is marketed in the world as a tourist country. Not only does South Africa earn a great deal of money as a result of this, but it is also publicized in the outside world.

I also want to exchange a few ideas today about the domestic tourist. A survey carried out by the department indicates that 83% of all urban South Africans enjoy regular holidays away from their homes. During 1974 an amount of about R350 million was spent by South Africans on vacations in South Africa. The events in Mozambique, and the devaluation of the rand which made holidays outside South Africa more expensive, result in more people taking their vacations in South Africa. Consequently it is with great appreciation that we take cognizance of the fact that in his annual report, the Secretary writes that the department has decided to launch a national programme for the inter-regional marketing of tourism. To launch a successful inter-regional marketing campaign and to utilize effectively the scientific marketing knowledge possessed by the department, it is necessary for the organizational marketing machinery to be capable of operating very effectively. Is it not advisable, therefore, for a penetrating investigation to be carried out into the subdivision of regions, so that if necessary, changes may be effected with regard to the number of regions and the regional borders? Is it not also necessary to bring about uniformity with regard to the organizational machinery in the system of regional functioning? In my opinion it is when this is done that the meaningful marketing of tourism in the various regions may be successfully tackled.

What is the position at present? We have 22 regions in South Africa. In only a few of these regions are there active regional committees—and some of those regional committees do outstanding work. However, no two regional committees in South Africa have the same composition, aims or priorities, nor are there any two such committees which function in the same way. That is not to mention those regions where regional committees do not function at all.

That is why I want to ask the hon. the Minister and his department to take a close look at the existing division into regions and, if necessary, to reduce the number of regions and bring about uniformity, where possible, as regards the composition, aims, priorities and functioning of regional committees. Uniformity must therefore be built into the organizational system.

Inter-regional marketing cannot be carried out by the department alone. The insight, co-operation and enthusiasm of interested persons in the regions is indispensable. Here I want to differ from the hon. member for Oudtshoorn who asked that the local authorities should make greater contributions of their own accord in order to market and publicize tourist attractions. The composition of regional tourism advisory boards which function as regional directorates of the National Tourist Bureaux are, in my opinion, essential to the carrying out of this task of advertising. There must be advisory boards appointed by the hon. the Minister, for every region and from every region, advisory boards which are representative of all interested parties and not merely of the local authorities in each region. There must be advisory boards which will ensure that the tourist potential of every region will come into its own. In other words, it must be ensured that there is more than just a tap at the caravan park referred to by the hon. member for Fauresmith. It was probably not the caravan park at Kuruman. It must be seen to that every region can have a meaningful share in everything which the tourist industry can offer for South Africa. Once we have rectified this organizational function of the department and once the aim, the motivation and the initiative of all these regional associations correspond, then, in my opinion, this inter-regional marketing can be effectively launched. I believe that if this could be done, the Tourism Advisory Board of the Western Cape would be in a position to market its region significantly in the Northern Cape or in Durban. The regional tourism advisory board of the Northern Cape, the Great Karoo and Namaqualand would then also be in a position to market their beautiful regions in Cape Town, Durban and Johannesburg.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the speech made by the hon. member for Kuruman. The hon. member discussed the reorganization and re-arrangement of tourism regions and I agree that something of the kind would result in greater efficiency in the activities of the regions. I also want to associate myself with the idea expressed by an hon. member that we should encourage our young people in particular to tour South Africa first before undertaking a foreign tour.

I should like to confine myself more particularly to a point raised by the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South. He had a few things to say about tour guide services and I, too, should like to raise a few ideas about this matter. It is true that when a tourist, whether domestic or foreign, undertakes a tour to a nature reserve, a game reserve, a monument or a museum, the role played by the tour guide is a very important one. The tour guide determines to a large extent whether the tourist enjoys the tour. In fact, he also determines what the tourist will remember about the tour and whether it will leave a lasting impression on him. Through his conduct, a tour guide can make a success of the tour, but he can also contribute towards the tour being a total failure.

At the moment there are altogether 423 tour guides in South Africa, 159 of whom are local guides, 37 of whom are regional guides and 227 of whom are national guides. Of the 423 tour guides, only 140 are full-time guides, whereas the rest do the work on a part-time basis. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he could not establish a national association for tour leaders through his department. Such a national association would then be able to draft a code in accordance with which tour guides could rate themselves. In May this year a meeting was held in Johannesburg by the local regional association, and later this year regional meetings will be held throughout the Republic. I am aware that there is a possibility that the rationalization of tour guide services will be discussed at those meetings.

I realize that there undoubtedly are capable tour guides in our country, but unfortunately there are many tour guides who are incompetent and do the tourist industry a great deal of harm. It is also true that many tour guides are trained by the enterprise by whom they are employed. They are often far from adequately qualified. They are only trained to be able to work for the enterprise in question. It is important that a tour leader should have a thorough knowledge of all the facets of his work. In the first place he must be proud of his country. He must be able to sell his country and what it offers with enthusiasm. He must know the history of his country very well. He must also be fully acquainted with the various race groups in our country. He must have a sound knowledge of our country’s economy, our geology and our geography. As far as the city guide is concerned, it is important that the guide should have a very good knowledge of the history of the city in which he is employed. He should know everything his city offers the tourist. When a tour guide takes tourists through the Castle in Cape Town, the Voortrekker Monument in Pretoria or the 1820 Settlers monument in Grahamstown, and that guide relates the history of the monument enthusiastically, then that history really lives for the tourist. When this happens, the tourist enjoys the tour so much more and it leaves a deep impression on him. It is my experience, too, that a sense of humour is an important characteristic in a tour guide. It results in the attention of the tourist being held. It is important that when such a tour group leader takes a group of tourists through a museum or art gallery, she should really be well prepared, know her subject thoroughly and know how to go about it. Later, when she is well trained, then she can even assist in the exhibition of works of art as well, because she will then know exactly how to go about it. There is a working committee which investigates tour group services and which goes into the practical and theoretical aspects of the training of tour group leaders. The committee has already made recommendations. At present the course is also being offered by our technical colleges.

I should again like to mention to the Minister the difficulty which is being experienced at the moment. If, for example, a group of French-speaking foreign tourists comes to South Africa today—they need not necessarily be holidaygoers, but could be a technical group, for example—to visit, say, Kuruman or the Karoo region, then the office in Pretoria is unaware whether a French-speaking tour group leader is available in that region. It is therefore important that a central register be kept from which it would be possible to ascertain which tour group leaders are available in this specific region.

It is also important that prospective tour group leaders should first be tested before being trained, because not everyone is a suitable candidate for training as a tour guide. In fact, it makes a difference whether a person is being trained as a city, regional or national guide. When these people have been trained they can be given a badge to be worn on their jackets by which they can be identified. This is not a new idea, because in various countries overseas such as Italy, England and Japan, this is already being implemented. This will also afford married women who live in the cities and speak foreign languages the opportunity to be trained as city tour guides. They can do this work on a part-time basis.

Various previous speakers have pointed out that tourism is an important industry for our country. In 1975 it earned R275 million for us in foreign exchange. This was the fourth biggest contribution. Other speakers also pointed out that the Department of Tourism envisages bringing one million tourists to South Africa in 1980. Our hotels have already been classified, but it is important, too, that the quality of our guides should improve. They should be of the highest quality.

In conclusion I should just like to convey my appreciation to the Department and its officials who attend to this matter with so much love for South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, I greatly enjoyed being able to have a short political holiday this afternoon. I think everyone else enjoyed it too. One of the notable characteristics of the Department of Tourism is that its activities are so clearly geared to the promotion of South Africa’s interests, without taking account of politics and other matters which cause division in South Africa, that when we discuss this Vote we have a striking degree of unanimity. We have an entirely constructive approach and real appreciation for the work done by the Department of Tourism.

Some of the hon. members who participated in the debate also expressed their appreciation of the work done by the Secretary of Tourism, the bodies that fall under him and the Department. I just want to say that I as the Minister value those words of appreciation. It always gives one pleasure when dedication, ability and enthusiasm are recognized by all sides of this House. I can assure the House that with officials like these we can rest assured that South Africa’s interests in the field of tourism—and we have heard from a number of sources this afternoon how important this is—will be properly looked after and—unless something entirely unforeseeable occurs—will always be developed in the interests of our whole country.

In the time at my disposal I should like to try and deal with as many as possible of the interesting contributions made by participants in this discussion.

†I want to start with the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South. He suggested that we should have a “See South Africa” year, with the object of attracting tourists from overseas to South Africa, and especially also of encouraging South Africans to be tourists internally in South Africa.

Instead of going overseas.

Well, you cannot be in South Africa while you are overseas. You would find that very difficult indeed.

I did not mean “as well as”; I meant “instead of”.

Mr. Chairman, we cannot have South African tourists touring internally in South Africa instead of overseas tourists, because those are the two things that we want to encourage. Therefore, Sir, I think the hon. member in fact meant “as well as”. Mr. Chairman, I want to say that the ideas expressed by the hon. member are in fact already the policy of the Department of Tourism. That is why we have started with our intensive internal regional marketing programme, in which we involve the tourist industry in South Africa and all other interested parties. The first tourist action committee, namely the committee for the Western Cape, has already been established and is actively engaged in marketing the Western Cape to South Africa. A further nine or ten similar action committees are in prospect. From these committees we hope eventually to establish a national body to promote internal tourism. I like the idea of a “Tour South Africa” year very much, but it should be broadly planned to involve as many people as possible, in order to encourage tourism internally and from outside as well, because the one without the other will only be half a task performed.

We want, as a result of this, to achieve our dual purpose, which we always have in mind when we consider tourism, i.e. to save foreign exchange and at the same time to earn foreign exchange. We want to try to achieve both these objects through one action programme, namely the one I have just mentioned. The department is already busy with this work. I do, however, want to assure the hon. member that we are not going to attack this with excessive haste, because such a project has to be planned very carefully. In this regard we also have an ideal. The Department of Tourism works to targets and we use the target objective system of planning. We hope that by the year 1978 we shall be able to celebrate the first year in which South Africa will have attracted a million tourists from overseas. Our projections seem to show that that is possible. I want to suggest to hon. members that they support me in trying to make that year—it may even be a little later than 1978—that year in which we attract a million tourists to South Africa, also the year of “Tour South Africa”. All our publicity resources, all our advertising, our whole organization and all our contacts with the industry will be directed towards drawing particular attention to South Africa as a tourist destination from overseas and as a tourist paradise for South Africans themselves. I am very grateful to the hon. member for raising this idea. As I have said, it is not a new idea, because we are already working on a similar plan, but it is none the less good to know that hon. members opposite are thinking along the same lines and that we can look forward to their co-operation and the cooperation of the entire country in advancing this plan.

The hon. member paid tribute to the department for some of its work in the field of publicity. He made particular mention of the film A World in One Country. Of course, I share his enthusiasm for that film and for a whole series of other films which the department has produced in the past and which have had remarkable success all over the world. We have noted his suggestion as to how this film can be used, but I want to tell him that we are already planning other bigger things. We are already looking to the next step beyond A World in One Country. I hope that next year, perhaps, we shall once more be able to bring together members of Parliament who are interested in tourism to show them what our further achievements have been by that stage.

As so many hon. members have expressed interest in the achievements of the department in attracting tourists from overseas, I should like to make some comment on the work the department and Satour are doing in this connection. As members reminded us, South Africa last year was host to more than 730 000 tourists, in spite of the economic difficulties which the world outside South Africa is experiencing. It is interesting to note that that number is an increase of 20, 5% on that of the previous year. This, to my mind, is a remarkable achievement. We had 281 000 tourists from Europe, i.e. 29% more than the previous year. We had 140 000 visitors from the UK, i.e., 34% more than we had the previous year. What makes this last figure particularly interesting, is that according to figures supplied by the British Tourist Authority, more visitors are coming to South Africa from the UK than the number of South Africans going to tour the UK. This is a significant new achievement by our tourist organizations and promises well for the future. From North America, i.e. from Canada and the United States, we had 58 000 tourists. This also indicates an encouraging increase. From Australia and New Zealand we had 28 000 tourists, which was 20% more than in 1974. The picture as a whole is therefore very interesting and encouraging. We can only hope that we will be able to maintain this progress in the future. Despite certain difficulties, I am still confident that we shall maintain progress and we are retaining the year 1978 as our target year for attracting one million tourists.

I do not wish to go into the details of the marketing strategy we employ. It is very interesting, but I like to keep a few secrets from my competitors in this field, and I think hon. members will have sympathy with me in this. However, we have been instrumental in bringing no fewer than 32 travel agents’ groups to South Africa during the past financial year. About 550 000 travel agents from more than 20 countries were involved. We also plan, as we have done in the past, once again to bring a large number of feature writers to South Africa in order to obtain first-hand information about South Africa and then to write articles in the technical tourist Press about beautiful South Africa. As many hon. members quoted today, we have had remarkably favourable reports about South Africa as a tourist attraction from many publications overseas. This does not happen by accident, but is as a result of our bringing them here, providing them with information and keeping contact with them in all the capitals of the world where we are involved. In this connection I should like to pay a tribute to the staff of our national tourist bureaux for these remarkable results which they achieved by accompanying these Pressmen throughout South Africa. I want to emphasize that although we have announced that it is our aim to attract one million tourists from abroad before the end of this decade, we are hoping and working to anticipate this date. I do believe that such an influx of tourists will be of tremendous benefit to South Africa, especially to those particularly concerned with tourism, for example the hotel industry, the Railways and the sections of the private sector concerned with tourism. I am confident that as the growing numbers of tourists come to South Africa, they will find that South Africa is equipped to give them the type of welcome they are entitled to, because they travel long distances to our country.

The hon. member also spoke about caravan parks, and so did other hon. members.

*The hon. member for Fauresmith in particular made a very interesting and well-informed contribution to the issue of caravans. I myself went on holiday in a caravan at one time of my life and I think it is a very interesting and in many respects an ideal way of spending a holiday, particularly for those who like to move around and do not go from point A to point B in order to stay there and then return home. And furthermore, this is particularly true for people who would like to see the country and who do not want to spend too much money on accommodation and would prefer to spend more on other valuable opportunities which their journey affords them. I am pleased that there are associations of caravan owners in South Africa today and that there are also good caravan publications in South Africa which do outstanding work, not only in South Africa, but also abroad. The hon. member read excerpts from what other people say about South Africa. I too have read exceptionally interesting articles abroad about South Africa as a country for caravan owners. I believe that this is something we must develop. That is why I listened attentively and with appreciation to the various suggestions made. I was particularly impressed by the suggestion made by the hon. member for Fauresmith that we should involve the administrators, the provinces, in this regard. This is necessary. They are the people who deal in the first instance with the bodies—inter alia the local authorities—that have to do this work. It is my intention to ask the four administrators within the next few months, before we assemble again at the beginning of next year, that we should have an opportunity at their next meeting to discuss the issue of tourism and in particular the issue of the provision of services for caravan owners to see what we can do to promote their interests. Because a number of hon. members have raised this matter I want to say that when we do so, we shall not overlook the fact that members of the non-White community are also becoming caravan owners to an increasing extent and that they, perhaps more than anyone else, are afforded opportunities by the caravan which would otherwise have passed them by. That is why we must look after them, too, when we plan for the facilities of caravan owners.

†The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South said that we must try to involve travel agents. This is the policy of the Department of Tourism. As the Secretary for Tourism always puts it to me, we are not consumer orientated, but industry or trade orientated. Our task is not, as some people seem to think, to organize specific tours for the general public. Our task is to excite the interests of the tourist industry of South Africa and of the rest of the world in the attractions of South Africa as a tourist destination and then to motivate and to stimulate them to take action to become agents in South Africa’s tourist action. The success of our department has to be ascribed to the fact that that is the way we see our function and the way in which we are trying to achieve our objectives. The hon. member spoke about the high prices of tours. In many cases the tours offered are too expensive. We are doing what we can by making appeals to private enterprise not to price themselves out of the market. However, eventually these are things that are determined by supply and demand and by economic laws beyond our control. But I do wish that the industry in South Africa generally will take care that they do not price themselves out of the market.

One of the hon. members, the hon. member for East London North, who is not here now, mentioned that much of our success was due to the fact that we devalued our currency. I think we should get our perspectives right. Devaluation might have helped, but if it did, it was very little indeed, because the moment South Africa devalued, almost immediately afterwards, the hotels in South Africa increased their rates by an average of 16%, and air fares to South Africa—a major item of expense for travellers to South Africa from Europe, America and Australia—went up by almost an equal amount. So, I do not think devaluation was the major factor, although it might have assisted and may assist in time to come, too, in restraining the increase in the cost of travel to South Africa.

What does the Minister of Finance say to that?

The Minister of Finance, like me, is interested in the truth. But the fundamental reason why we have had these spectacular successes as far as tourism is concerned, is the fact that South Africa sells itself.

*We have had a number of poetical speeches from various members, such as the hon. member for Bethlehem, the hon. member for Oudtshoorn, the hon. member for Kuruman and others, about the attractions of South Africa. The hon. member for East London North excelled and waxed poetical, and I am very grateful to him for this. We have a good product to sell and when we sell South Africa and I believe that the method by which we sell it is one of the best. It produces results.

†The hon. member mentioned the non-White tourists and their needs. The Department of Tourism is as concerned as he is with the comfort and the needs of our non-White tourists. We are aware of their rights and what they are entitled to. I want to express my very sincere regret that the hon. member for Sandton did not take part in this debate. He owed it to the House to do so, because he put a question on the Order Paper, to which I gave him a courteous reply about the survey we had done of the tourist pattern, in South Africa, with a view, for the first time, to determine what the demand is among our people for tourist facilities and then to compare that demand with what is available. The hon. member preferred, instead of making his contribution here and doing what I would have expected him to do, namely to have taken part in these discussions, seeing that he went to the Press about things, preferred to stay away and to come in only at the end of the discussion. I take a dim view of the action of an hon. member who put a question on the Order Paper, got information showing that the Department of Tourism is concerned about the interests of all our people in tourism, and then ran to the Press and put a directly contrary interpretation upon this initiative of the Department of Tourism. I have said it is typical. And now my political holiday is suspended for one moment. It is typical of the attitude of members of the Progressive Party to use any pretext, even deliberately mistakenly, in order to make it difficult for us to improve race relations in South Africa. I have to say it because too many of these incidents are taking place for us to regard them as isolated incidents. They are beginning to form a pattern.

*Then, too, the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South discussed a matter which is very near to my heart, viz. the improvement of our touring guide service and the founding of a touring guide organization in South Africa to uphold a certain level, standard and ethical code. I have had personal experience of a touring guide in South Africa who was totally ignorant and of others who have been completely prejudiced against South Africa and who have gone out of their way to create an unfavourable image among visitors to South Africa. I am of the opinion that this is a matter which ought to be attended to urgently. As far back as 1974, my predecessor said to the hon. House that it was one of the aims of the Department of Tourism to put a touring guide system for South Africa on a sound basis.

At the beginning of last year a committee was appointed under the chairmanship of the former chairman of Asata to investigate this matter. This committee presented a report at the end of August last year which recommended that certain courses for the training of touring guides should be amended and in terms of which touring guides should be divided into three categories. The department raised these recommendations, with the exception of a few amendments, with the Department of National Education, and attention is at present being given to amended comprehensive courses for touring guides. Unfortunately the progress made with the other aspect has not been so good because although efforts have been made to organize the touring guides of South Africa into one association, thus far these efforts have not been crowned with success. There is in fact a guide association in the Eastern Province at the moment, and only a few weeks ago a South African association was founded in Johannesburg, but unfortunately, although the name contains the words “South African”, to our knowledge it only represents Johannesburg. In order to settle the matters of the proposed founding of the South African Association of Tourist Guides of which all touring guides working in South Africa would have to be members, my department decided to arrange a number of regional meetings of touring guides in July of this year in order to discuss the matter with them, in an attempt to organize such an association. It is a simple matter to place a new Act on the Statute Book which would regulate this matter. However, I am convinced that if we can obtain the co-operation of a national body which is able to regulate its own affairs and lay down ethical codes, we shall succeed much more rapidly in our aim of establishing this sector of tourism at a professional level. It is vital that this be done as soon as possible since it only damages South Africa’s image abroad if this is not done. As hon. members know, this was proved in a recent television programme. The department has many other similar examples. The valuable suggestions made by many of my hon. friends will be borne in mind in the course of our work.

I want to congratulate the hon. member for Bethlehem, who has done a great deal of good work to bring his own region to the attention of potential tourists, on his contribution. I also want to thank him for the appreciative words he addressed to the Department of Tourism. I am sure that we shall be able to co-operate to promote tourism in South Africa and particularly in the district to which he referred. We attach a great deal of importance to internal tourists, and I want to suggest that Harrismith should consider establishing a strong publicity association, if the town does not already have one. If the town already does have such an association, then the association is welcome to contact my department so that an effort could be made to put Harrismith on the map. I agree with the hon. member, because I know the Free State; in fact, I found myself a wife in the Eastern Free State. It is a very pleasant part of South Africa; I agree. There are pleasant people there, too.

The hon. member for Oudtshoorn also discussed the attractions of his district. Indeed, it is a very attractive place. They do make one clamber around in difficult places sometimes, but there are people who enjoy that, too. However, I am not one of them. The hon. member discussed the interests of the non-Whites. I have already dealt with this. The hon. member also promoted his own area and I fully support him in that regard. I wish him every success. My department will do what it can to assist. I have already referred to that part of the speech by the hon. member for Fauresmith devoted to caravans. He also gave a very interesting description of the work of the department and of the value of the work of the department. This is something we appreciate because it is necessary to analyse it in such a way so that the public can know what we are doing. I am therefore grateful that he took the trouble to do this. As far as caravans are concerned, as I have said we shall convene a conference of the administrators to see what we can do to further this matter.

†I think I have already answered the hon. member for East London North. I hope he heard my reply, because he came in while I was speaking. I appreciated his eulogy of South Africa. We do have the best of many things. Some people even think that we have the best of Governments, but there, of course, I must be careful. [Interjections.] We certainly do have a country with the most remarkable qualities. I also dealt with his suggestion that the devaluation of the rand was a major factor in encouraging tourism to South Africa.

*The hon. member for Kuruman discussed Sartoc, that very interesting body which promotes tourism in countries of Southern Africa. It is an association whose membership consist of the Republic, Lesotho, Swaziland, Malawi and Mauritius. Last year I had the exceptional privilege of being chairman of this regional tourism council in Southern Africa. As hon. members know, this organization was founded in Port Louis, Mauritius, in March 1973. The council seeks to promote tourism in the Southern African region as a whole. It is encouraging to be able to report that the aims of the council have in fact been furthered. A brochure containing information about the various member countries has already appeared and is being distributed abroad through our own Satour offices wherever we operate. Many pamphlets stating Sartoc’s aims have been attractively printed and are being distributed in the industry. Apart from this, the first edition of Venture has appeared this year. This is a periodical in which the tourist product of the member countries of Sartoc is illustrated further. Two months ago the marketing subcommittee of the council met in Johannesburg to discuss further marketing drives. This organization is becoming progressively more active, not only within the region itself, but also in regard to its activities abroad, particularly in Europe and America. I can assure the hon. member that the Department of Tourism plays a leading role in the activities of this organization and that much time and trouble is taken to assist in the launching of marketing drives. We are grateful to be able to put our advanced technical knowledge at the disposal of these countries of Southern Africa and I believe from experience that this is one of the ways in which South Africa can assist in promoting the interests of our neighbours and also in making possible and further expanding sound relations between South Africa and other countries in Southern Africa. The hon. member also asked us to take another look at the composition of our regional organizations. He asked that we should give particular consideration to whether they were based on real community interests and on uniformity of action. The regional organizations have recently been reviewed and reorganized to a certain extent. This is a matter to which the department devotes constant attention. At present there are 22 regions and our aim is to promote exactly what the hon. member suggested. We shall review the whole structure again shortly in order to consider how it can be improved in the light of the experience we have gained over the past few months.

Now only my friend, the hon. member for Alberton, is left. He discussed touring guides. I replied to his question when I replied to the first speaker who discussed this subject. I just want to thank him sincerely for his interest in this important matter and assure him that his suggestions and proposals will enjoy the due attention of the department.

I now want to conclude with this final thought. South Africa receives 730 000 tourists from abroad, and the vast majority of those people come to South Africa and are impressed by the beauty, the many-sidedness, the complexity of our country, the pride of our animal life, the beauty of our plant life and our remarkably great diversity of peoples. I can say from experience that although this is not the primary aim of the Department of Tourism, nevertheless the department plays a vital role, through the tourist industry, in promoting South Africa’s image abroad. There is not the slightest doubt about this. I think that what South Africa needs and wants most today, is for people—even those who are critical of us—to have personal experience and knowledge of our country and its circumstances. The tourists do in fact have such an opportunity. Some of them depart and remain hostile, but 99% of the people who visit South Africa can never again be totally negative about South Africa after having left here, because South Africa itself is the best advertisement for the good things in our society. That is why we in the Department of Tourism feel that we are not merely earning foreign exchange, and that we are not merely assisting in making a success of our hotel and tourist industries, but that we can also make a real contribution towards putting South Africa in a better light; and to inform people is to put South Africa in a better light abroad. Because we, too perform this important task, I once again want to express my thanks and appreciation to hon. members of this House for their constructive approach to this department and also for their valuable suggestions. I hope that as long as the Department of Tourism exists it will always continue to exclude politics from its activities but to act as a truly South African body operating in the interests of South Africa and all South Africans.

Vote agreed to.

Vote No. 41 and S.W.A. Vote No. 26.—“Coloured, Rehoboth and Nama Relations”:

Mr. Chairman, as we begin the discussion of this Vote, let me just mention a few matters to hon. members. The Whips have apparently agreed that no attention will be given to the report of the Theron Commission during the discussion of this Vote, but that it will be possible to have a comprehensive discussion on it during the extended Third Reading debate.

I also just want to make use of this early opportunity to announce something which may perhaps be of importance in the discussion to come. In view of representations made to me from various quarters—I shall go into this in more detail in a moment—it has been decided, in full consultation with the hon. the Minister of Defence, to introduce a system of school cadets at junior secondary and senior secondary schools falling under the jurisdiction of the Administration of Coloured Affairs and under my department. This will be done on the basis of applications by school principals on behalf of their school committees. Representations have been made to me by the S.A. Coloured Legion for the introduction of a system of national service for Coloureds. Representations have also been made by the CRC which passed a motion in this regard—I think it was as long ago as last year—as well as by the elected Coloured Council of South West Africa.

I therefore discussed this early this year with the hon. the Minister of Defence. Not only he, but also the chiefs of the Defence Force were very sympathetically inclined towards this, but in view of our financial circumstances, and also due to my experience in the past by virtue of the fact that on several occasions I was chairman of a Select Committee appointed in connection with defence legislation, specifically with a view to the introduction of a training system which would involve the provision of facilities and instructors, we decided jointly that initially, a start would be made with a dispensation in which school cadets were only provided for. The purpose is to introduce school cadets at the beginning of 1978.

With a view to this whole undertaking it has been agreed that a steering committee will set to work shortly. My department and the Administration of Coloured Affairs will be represented on that committee by a senior Coloured official. The present chairman of the existing inter-departmental cadet committee—at the moment he is a Deputy Secretary of the Department of National Education—and a representative of the Defence Force will also serve on the committee. As I have already pointed out, the idea is that applications from school principals on behalf of their school committees will be awaited. In addition I must say that it must also be clear that such an application is made on a basis of a bona fide request from the parents and children of the school concerned for a cadet section to be founded there. Of course, to begin with there will be problems as far as instructors are concerned. Teachers will have to be trained by means of short courses or in some other way, to be able to undertake the task of instructors. Approval will have to be obtained at Cabinet level for the establishment of the necessary facilities which this will involve. Provision will also be made for a co-ordinating interdepartmental committee as exists at present in the case of White cadets. The new dispensation will be adapted to the existing system. As I have already said, the approach may perhaps be slightly different to that adopted in respect of White schools, because we know what a positive feeling there is in this connection among Coloured pupils. As a result, even junior secondary schools will be taken into consideration. At this stage I do not want to say anything more about the matter, because the whole matter will be handed over to the steering committee for investigation. I have mentioned these points merely as an introduction to the discussion to follow.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the privilege of the half hour? Before I deal with the matters with which I intend dealing, I want to say on behalf of the hon. members in these benches that we welcome the hon. the Minister’s announcement that arrangements are to be made for the introduction of school cadets at the Coloured schools. I am particularly pleased at the way in which the hon. the Minister proposes to introduce it. I notice that it will be on a voluntary basis and that the parents of the various schools will have a say in the matter. Knowing the feelings of the Coloured people as I do in this particular regard, I think it is a step forward. I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister on making arrangements for this to become possible.

In regard to the matter which the hon. the Minister raised about the Theron Commission I want to say that we have an agreement and during the discussions on this Vote we will certainly not raise issues concerning that commission.

We have now reached the debate on the last Vote to be discussed during the Committee Stage of this Bill. However, this Vote is by no means the least important because, as I see it, the Minister of Coloured, Rehoboth and Nama Relations has under the present constitutional dispensation the power to control and shape the destiny of 2½ million South African citizens. Mr. Chairman, the developments which have taken place in recent months and the political impasse which has flowed from these developments, has placed great responsibility on this hon. Minister. During the course of this debate I hope the hon. the Minister will spell out in unequivocal terms how he sees the road ahead and how he sees that he is going to conduct affairs in such a way that the impasse in which we now find ourselves is eliminated in the best interests of South Africa. I hope that in his future policy deployment he will bear in mind some of the views expressed by members on his side of the House. I want to refer him to a speech made in this hon. House by the hon. member for Johannesburg West He said—

This must form the basis of future planning as far as relations between White and Brown are concerned. We support this point of view from this side of the House. The hon. member for Johannesburg West went further and said—

That is indeed the standpoint of this side.

I am only saying that I hope that the hon. Minister will follow these ideas in developing the policy in the future. The hon. Minister of Health, who was previously responsible for this particular Vote, also said some interesting things. He said in a speech at Stellenbosch, and I quote from The Argus—

Mr. Chairman, I hope that the hon. the Minister is going to bear in mind what his hon. predecessor said and that we will see from this Minister rapid action in the removal of those things that are discriminatory and hurtful in respect of the Coloured community.

I further want to take this opportunity of introducing this hon. Minister of Coloured Relations to the Assembly. I do not think all hon. members realize what an important role this hon. Minister has in fact to play. The Minister finds himself in a rather peculiar situation. The Coloured Persons Representative Council Act has been so amended by the Government that this Minister himself is now empowered virtually to perform every function assigned to that body in the original Act. The CRC and its executive refused to pass the last budget presented to it in December 1975. As a result, the executive of that body resigned and its chairman was dismissed from office because he refused to exercise the authority delegated to him by the Minister. A new chairman has now been appointed by this Minister, a chairman who, however efficient and dedicated she may be, happens to be a Government nominated member of the CRC, and therefore, as I see it, by no stretch of imagination an elected representative of the electorate of the Coloured community. Bearing all these facts in mind, one may in fact argue that this hon. Minister is in fact the CRC. In so far as the community he serves is concerned, he is in fact the Minister of Education, the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions, the Minister of Justice, the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Housing; this hon. Minister is in fact a Cabinet on his own, albeit a mini-Cabinet. [Interjections.]

As Minister of Finance he prepares the budget we have before us today. He submits it to this Parliament; he asks and votes for its approval. He returns it to the CRC, where he gets it approved, albeit by people he has nominated to do so. There he authorizes its appropriation. I readily concede that the position I have outlined was not in fact the design or plan of the Government. However, the hard, cold facts are—and this hon. Minister must face them—that the Coloured electorate, set up by the Government in two elections have made it quite clear that the policy of parallel development, of which the Coloured Persons Representative Council is an integral component, is totally unacceptable to them. This is one of the hard, cold facts which, unfortunate as it may be, this hon. Minister has to face.

I am sorry to say that, as I see it, the Government consistently refuses to heed this message, and now finds the constitutional edifice which it has so painstakingly erected, crumbling into ruins. In so far as deploying the policy of parallel development is concerned, the Government has painstakingly carried out the mandate which the late Dr. Verwoerd sketched, I think, to the Coloured people’s council, in 1961. They have spared nothing in their attempt to make this policy work, but unfortunately because it goes forward on a false premise, despite all their efforts, we today find the Coloured people rejecting it because in fact the policy is wrong. The reasons for this are straightforward, and the sooner all of us accept it the sooner we will resolve the present impasse.

It is my wish that the hon. the Minister, by his administration of the important task which he has, is in fact able to resolve the impasse, because the impasse we have at the present time is not in the best interests of South Africa. The Coloured people do not accept the present dispensation, which many people call “die nuwe bedeling”, as a quid pro quo for the political rights—however restricted those political rights may have been—which they have had to surrender. They do not accept the present situation as a quid pro quo for those rights. They do not accept the ethnic principle which underlies the philosophy of separate development, but rather see it as an arrangement for entrenching discrimination against them. They do not see themselves as a separate national or cultural entity, and do not regard themselves as “ ’n volk-in-wording”.

They realize that the CRC, no matter how it may be restructured, will remain subservient to the White Parliament. They realize, as I do, that there cannot be two sovereign Parliaments within the same country; better described as “twee soewereine parliament binne dieselfde landsgrense”. They further realize that the authorizing of the total budget, both on Revenue and Loan Account, is entirely a function of this Parliament.

That, Mr. Chairman, brings me to a discussion of this particular Vote, Vote 41. We must remember that when discussing this Vote, we have the authority and the right to decide how much money will be set aside for the Coloured people during the ensuing financial year. The Coloured people themselves have no opportunity to participate in this decision. It is unfortunate in the dispensation which has been worked out for them; it is a unilateral decision made by this sovereign Parliament.

The first matter I wish to raise is subhead J—Coloured Persons Representative Council. The amount which is required to be voted is R174 465 000. This amount is set aside for the Coloured Persons Representative Council for this particular financial year. One notes that there is an increase of R16 million. Of this total budget, education, excluding university education, receives approximately R100 million. The point I want to raise with the hon. the Minister is that on this basis, and assuming that there are 650 000 children enrolled in Coloured schools at the present time, we find that this sum which the hon. the Minister proposes to spend on Coloured education is approximately one quarter of that being spent per capita on scholars in the White sector. My first question to the hon. the Minister is this: When he asks us to pass this budget, how does he arrive at this figure he intends spending on Coloured education? What information do members in this House have in order to be able to judge that the amount which this hon. Minister is asking us to approve is adequate? Does the hon. the Minister work to a formula, and if so, what is that formula? Bearing in mind the big backlog that exists especially in regard to the output of qualified teachers, the facilities that are required to train these teachers and also what is required to eliminate systematically the salary gap which exists, does the hon. the Minister think that there is adequate provision in this Vote? What assurance can the hon. the Minister give us that he has provided sufficiently in this budget to deal with that particular matter?

Further, I should like to know from the hon. the Minister what policy or formula he has or is going to apply in respect of the elimination of the salary gap. This is a matter of vital importance. He will agree with me that the most vital thing we have to do to raise the standard of living of the Coloured people has to be done via education. As long as there is a gap between the salaries of White teachers and Coloured teachers with the same qualifications, we shall find the situation that teachers will leave the profession to work in the private sector where the remuneration is far closer to that of their White counterparts. The hon. the Minister will have to do something about it, and he must tell the hon. House by what steps and by what date he anticipates the salary gap will be eliminated. I ask these questions—and if time permitted, there would be more—because in approving this budget which will be submitted to the CRC in September for their approval, we as members of this House have no guideline to decide whether the amounts which are being voted are adequate. The Vote may even be in excess of what is required, but we have no guideline in this regard and we are working in the dark. As I have said, the whole question of the upliftment of the Coloured people is so vitally important that every cent we can muster to spend on that essential field will be an investment in the future of South Africa. It will not only be in the interests of the Coloured community, but in the interests of South Africa as a whole. I am aware of the progress that has been made, and I readily admit that there has probably been more progress in the field of Coloured education than in any other respect in so far as that community is concerned, but I nevertheless still submit that the amount this hon. Minister is setting aside for Coloured education is inadequate for the present need.

I should now like to turn to another aspect of the budget. This is a matter which does not fall directly under the hon. the Minister, but in which he must have a very direct interest. I am referring to the amount set aside by the Department of Public Works for additional school accommodation. I want to know from the hon. the Minister what plans he has in respect of funds for future capital expenditure, taking into account the following facts: There are some 75 000 children attending double-shift classes at the present time. Expressed in terms of class-rooms, this means that there are 2 268 children at the present time being accommodated under the double-session system. The hon. the Minister must also know that he has an anticipated intake of some 33 000 new scholars each year for the following five years. To meet this class-room backlog and to eliminate the double-shift system he will have to spend capital amounts to provide class-room accommodation at the rate of R30 million per annum. In this particular year he is budgeting for something like R16 million. This is only half of what is required. What assurance have we, the members in this House, that the amount that is going to be set aside in future is going to be sufficient to eliminate the backlog and provide adequate class-room accommodation for the big new intake he can anticipate with compulsory education being instituted?

I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to another matter. Last year we voted approximately R16 million for class-rooms and capital expenditure on facilities. However, for some reason or other, R4 million of that was not spent. I want the hon. the Minister to give me the assurance that in future when we in this House set money aside for expenditure on a very vital field, the total amount will, in fact, be spent. He will have to take steps with his hon. colleagues to see to it that there is no delay in the proclaiming of townships and in seeing to it that the necessary tenders are accepted, etc.

But that is not the Minister’s work.

Of course it is the Minister’s work. He is responsible for the Coloured people, and if other Ministers are not doing their jobs, this hon. Minister has to see to it that it is in fact done.

That is the work of the executive of the CRC. You know that quite well.

The Coloured people have no say with regard to the money that becomes available for Coloured education, whether it be for teachers’ salaries or Capital Account. It is authorized by this Parliament. The hon. the Minister is their representative, and he must see to it that this is done. During the course of this year I asked whether the capital amount appropriated for new Coloured schools and for additions to existing schools for the financial year 1975-’76 would be fully spent. The answer was that R4 million had not been spent. Some very flimsy excuses were given as to why that money had not been used. We are asked to approve globular amounts in this House for education. The hon. the Minister is asking us to do it. I say that very few members in this House know for what purpose the money we are being asked to vote will be used. We arrive at the decision with virtually no figures whatsoever. The nearest I could get to it was to get the estimates of expenditure to be defrayed from Revenue Account and loan funds presented to the CRC last year.

In respect of the money on this Vote which this Minister is asking us to spend today we have no details whatsoever and yet members here are quite prepared, when the Minister asks for it, to authorize the expenditure irrespective of whether or not it is sufficient to meet the needs. At least previously, in the Loan Account, the way the budget was presented, we could see on what schools the money was being spent, but with this present way of doing it we do not even have that information available. The net result of this arrangement is that when the money set aside is debated in the CRC the amount has already been decided upon by this House. The way in which we decide what will be available, I believe reflects very impressively how the CRC, which is the most senior legislative body that the Coloured people have available to them, stands helplessly subservient to this Parliament in their most important function, the question of finance.

I would like to ask the hon. the Minister a few questions. First of all, in policy statements the Government has indicated that it is taking steps to make a thorough in-depth investigation of the contribution of the Coloured people to the revenue of our country in order to make suitable fiscal arrangements. I understand that a committee was appointed and I believe they have started their work to establish what contribution the Coloured community is in fact making. I would like to ask the hon. the Minister to tell me how far that committee has got with its work, how it set about its task and when we can expect the results.

I also want to ask the hon. the Minister on what statutory bodies, councils and commissions that deal with matters of common concern to Whites and Coloureds the Minister has appointed Coloured persons. There are many such commissions and boards, like the Group Areas Board, the Housing Commission, the Liquor Licensing Board, the Wage Board, the Road Transportation Board and the Race Classification Board. To how many of these boards have Coloured people been appointed? I would be grateful if the Minister would also indicate to me who these people are. Furthermore, I would like to know what progress the hon. the Minister has made in respect of appointing Coloured persons to serve in the diplomatic services. I believe there was an undertaking that this would be done and I would now like the hon. the Minister to tell me what progress has been made in this regard.

Finally, I want to return to the matter of education and to say one or two things about rural education. I would be grateful if the hon. the Minister would tell me how he sees the future in this important regard. The hon. the Minister of Community Development has been dealing with the squatter problem during this session of Parliament. In fact, he introduced legislation to deal with this problem. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that one of the main reasons why Coloured people are leaving the country areas is simply because the parents want to go to the bigger centres where education is more readily available for their children. I am aware of what is being done by the Minister’s department to try to promote a better system of rural education, but I submit that at this stage what is being done is totally inadequate to keep the rural Coloured population in the areas where they wish to stay and work, who due to a lack of education facilities find themselves migrating to the bigger cities. In fact, this rate of migration is such that one might easily describe it as the second Great Trek in our history. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that he calls for a survey of the platteland to find centralized spots where education can be provided for these people in the districts where they live and on the farms where they are working. The Minister must remember that it is not only farm workers that he is going to have to provide for. The S.A. Railways are very big employers of Coloured people and the education of their employees is also a matter of vital importance. I want to say that as I see the situation there are many farm buildings today which have become redundant. There are very many buildings, railway buildings, which are redundant because of the recent rationalization by the Railways through centralized traffic control, and which can be adequately utilized for hostels and buildings where instruction can be given in the country.

Furthermore, I think that it is vitally important that the hon. the Minister looks into the question of providing adequate transport services so that the children who have to attend these schools can at least be moved daily or weekly to the places where they can get a very much better quality and level of education than is being provided at the present time.

No one is being critical of what is being done, and I will admit that great progress has been made in many respects as far as the Coloured population group is concerned. The most important point to remember is that this is not necessarily because the policy of parallel development for the Coloured people is a success. This progress has been made, I feel, in many instances because of the expansion of the economy as a whole and the participation of the Coloured people in that economy. If the hon. the Minister goes forward with the point of view that we have achieved certain things and that we have had our successes and there has been progress because their policy of parallel development is a success and that this is the policy that the Coloured people want, he is going forward, I believe, on a false premise. Above all, the Coloured people want to be South Africans. They want to be involved in the affairs and the activities of our country on the same basis as any other South African citizen, and they, moreover, want the same civic rights and the same rights of citizenship. If these things are granted, we will find that we have a tremendous ally in South Africa. One hon. member called them an ally and the hon. member for Moorreesburg called them partners. They are partners in our society and they will play a great role in seeing that the future of South Africa is secure. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, at the beginning of my speech I should like to congratulate the hon. the Minister very heartily on his appointment as the Minister responsible for Coloured Relations and we should like to wish him wisdom and strength in looking after the portfolio which has been entrusted to him. I should also like to express my appreciation and pay tribute to the hon. the Minister’s predecessor, Dr. S. W. van der Merwe, who looked after the portfolio with great success during difficult times and did his duty.

I listened attentively to the speech of the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central and it amazed me a little that the hon. member once again continued his argument that we have more or less reached a dead end as far as the Coloured population is concerned. The hon. member referred in particular to the false premises upon which this side of the House and the Government base their ideas and, inter alia, he once again raised the resignation of Mr. Sonny Leon, the former chairman of the Executive of the CRC. According to the hon. member’s reasoning and argument, it comes down to the fact that when the chairman of the Executive of the CRC resigns, the Government of the country collapses and the Government has to change its policy.

This is definitely not our point of view. Indeed, at that time it was clear to me—this is how I interpreted it—that Mr. Sonny Leon asked on one occasion to be nominated by the Government as chairman of the Executive. He also asked that his party be given an opportunity to take care of the administration of Coloured Affairs. At a very early stage—one can almost say at the beginning of his period of office—he refused to carry out his obligations. I personally consider this as gross irresponsibility on his part. Therefore I definitely do not intend to butter Mr. Sonny Leon up or to approve of his action. What is more: I think that his successor is acting with a much greater sense of responsibility and far more wisdom that he did or would have done. Therefore we on this side of the House will definitely not make an excuse for the way the Government dealt with the matter.

I want to point out further to the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central that, in its consideration of all the circumstances which are before it and in the process of its endeavours to do justice to the Coloured population as well, the Government can not only account for the opinion of the Coloured population or of its Representative Council or the Executive of that council, but that it has to account for the whole population set-up of South Africa. In particular it has to account for the standpoint, the considerations and the attitudes of the White voter of South Africa. Since, as a result of election results over 2½ decades, the Government knows how the majority of the White voters in South Africa see the matter, and what mandate they have given to the Government, I can tell the hon. member that it is impossible, that it is out of the question, for the Government to listen to the Coloured population or its representatives alone and then work out a policy for South Africa according to that plan. It is a delicate, very responsible task to govern South Africa and to maintain order and peace in a country such as ours. This was proved once again by events during the past week, apart from the fact that it will probably be proved by the inquiry that there are other people who are interested in this kind or irresponsible action.

I find it interesting that many of the arguments which have been advanced by hon. members on the other side of the House through the years, have proved to be unfounded. Objections were raised on that side of the House when a separate Department of Coloured Affairs was established. But, particularly when Coloured education was taken over by this department, there were a multitude of objections. They adopted a very pessimistic point of view about it. One of the main arguments was that it would apparently lead to the lowering of the standards of education. There would be less security for teachers and it would lead to an ideological indoctrination of the Coloured population and the Coloured child. The various church bodies would suffer great losses as a result of the take-over of Coloured education. It was also suggested that the introduction of compulsory education would be delayed, while this is one of the ideals we are striving to achieve. What happened in the course of time? These fears were proved to be completely unfounded. On the contrary. Coloured education grew with rapid strides from year to year, step by step. Experts paid specialized attention to the circumstances and requirements of Coloured education. We have the evidence of this today. The few facts which the hon. member raised in connection with the lack of school accommodation and the fact that there are still 75 000 children who are attending double shift classes is no proof of the fact that everything is wrong with Coloured education, but it is proof of the fact that there are still major needs, something I am quite prepared to concede to the hon. member.

This development and the way in which the Government handles the interests of the Coloured population proved that we are looking well after the interests of these people and that we are giving them an opportunity to help to manage their own affairs, and also to have a say in governing the country as far as they themselves are concerned and to make a very important contribution on this score. There are 24 104 people employed by the department, and this figure includes teachers. Of that number, however, according to the 1974 figures, only 1 364 are Whites, 854 of whom are simply temporary employees. These are for the work part teachers who are only employed temporarily because there are not enough qualified Coloured teachers available. In other words, it is a department which is being looked after to a large extent by the Coloured population for the Coloured population and in the interests of the Coloured population.

We know that there are approximately 20 000 Coloured teachers. The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central mentioned the figure of over 600 000 pupils. Even in the planning of Coloured education, the Coloured person plays a very important role today. There are 192 approved inspector posts and 156 of those posts are filled. No fewer than 39 of the 156 inspector posts are filled by Coloureds, while, before 1964, there were no Coloured inspectors at all, let alone prior to 1948. In the course of ten years, 39 Coloureds have become inspectors of Coloured education. Has there ever before been such an opportunity for the Coloureds to participate in Coloured education on such a high level? When one considers this development, one appreciates how careful one must be before one accuses the Government wrongly and says that its whole point of departure is incorrect. If its whole point of departure is incorrect, the results must definitely be incorrect too.

The hon. member’s time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, I simply rise to give the hon. member an opportunity to complete his speech.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. member for the fact that he suggested this in spite of the fact that I am opposing him a little. What is of further importance, is that this year a Coloured was appointed as chief inspector of Coloured education. In other words, even at that level the Coloureds are moving ahead in the Department of Coloured Education and playing a leading role. I know that hon. gentleman very well and I think that he will be able to make an important contribution. I therefore congratulate him heartily. However, if the old dispensation had continued, I wonder whether a Coloured inspector would ever have been appointed anywhere today, let alone a chief inspector. I do not want to argue about “nation’s” or “emerging nations” now. These people are very definitely a population group. They say this themselves. They are a population group with its own identity. Coloured education has made spectacular progress along this road and Coloureds have been given the opportunity of moving ahead in high posts and accepting co-responsibility—together with Whites—for the planning, development and extension of Coloured education. I want to confirm that there definitely are problems and I shall mention a few of them. The first to which I want to refer, is perhaps a minor problem.

I notice in the annual report of the Administration of Coloured Affairs that during the year 1973-’74 no fewer than 451 burglaries occurred in Coloured schools. I do not really know what one would want to steal at a school. Unfortunately one sometimes gains the impression that the Coloureds are simply filled with the spirit of vandalism as we have now seen it in Soweto and other places where people simply break down and destroy everything which is in their own interest in an irresponsible way. This we regret and we hope that Coloured education will in course of time cause the Coloured people to realize that it is not in their interest to commit burglaries and thefts of this kind. I do not say this in the sense that any other kind of theft should be encouraged, but least of all here. The amount which was lost as a result of these burglaries amounted to more than R23 000. There was therefore a considerable amount of damage and a great deal of it was of course damage to property. I can only express the hope that Coloured education will make an important contribution towards eliminating this kind of action on the part of the Coloureds in due course.

The first important problem in connection with Coloured education upon which I want to dwell for a moment, is the question of the availability of sufficiently qualified Coloured teachers. The report of the Education Advisory Council also refers to the problem. It is said that of a total of 20 000 teachers, only 540 are graduates also holding a teacher’s diploma. If one bears in mind that the Coloured school population is progressing to higher standards, one realizes that this number is far too low and that we are dealing here with a very serious shortage. Therefore we are pleased that the Government in its wisdom decided at an early stage that a University of the Western Cape should be founded so that the Coloured people could, as it were, develop their own university and that not only a small number of them would study at the Universities of Cape Town and the Witwatersrand and obtain degrees. It was our aim that an increased number of Coloured people should receive university training, because after all it is not only the education of Coloureds which needs graduates and well-trained people. We should like to see a large number of trained Coloureds coming forward and providing the services which are so essential. I should like to quote the comment of the Coloured Education Council as it appears in the report for the period ending 31 March 1975—

This indicates a serious shortage which is detrimental to the standard of high school education of Coloured children. It also indicates a serious lack in encouragement and guidance and it probably also concerns the success of candidates for the Std. 8 or Std. 10 examination. On one occasion a school principal said to me that he was pleased to use the Whites who are available and that he appoints as many White teachers as possible for the Std. 8 and Std. 10 classes since he finds them to be better equipped to coach candidates with a view to the final examination.

I mention this for what it is worth, but this is how Coloured people who are placed in a responsible position, put it. In saying this we are not casting a reflection upon the qualified Coloured teacher. It simply indicates the problem that the principal of a Coloured high school has to prepare for the Std. 8 or Std. 10 examination with unqualified teachers.

We shall all concede that this is a serious problem. We should like to see the hon. the Minister and the Government giving all possible assistance in this connection, not only to the students at the University of the Western Cape, but also to others. These people must be encouraged to obtain degrees and qualify themselves better. In this connection I should like to suggest for consideration that this encouragement may perhaps take place by means of a more substantial increase for the Coloured teachers holding a degree than for the non-graduate teacher. I feel that we must encourage the top people a little. Matters may perhaps be arranged in such a way that parity be introduced in respect of salaries for the graduates, those who exerted themselves and worked in order to reach the top. I believe that this will be a great encouragement for the people to qualify themselves better and make their services available for the education of the Coloured people.

The second matter which causes many problems, is the question of providing sufficient classroom accommodation. I want to point out that the question which the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central put to the hon. the Minister, has been replied to to a large extent. R6 million is made available for the provision of classroom accommodation for the Coloured population annually. Apart from that the Cabinet decided that during the period 1974 to 1978 an annual amount of R5¼ million, in total R21 million, would be made available in addition. What more does the hon. member expect from the hon. the Minister? What can he tell him? This is being done in these times of a lack of funds, of combating inflation. The Government anticipated events and appropriated R21 million. Knowing the Government as I do, it will honour its word. In other words, since 1974 more than R11 million is made available for this purpose annually. I am convinced that we shall be able to make substantial progress with this and that the Coloured population, because it is not yet in a position to make a substantial contribution itself towards providing the necessary funds for education, cannot expect it to be done in a day or a year or five years. Apart from that there is another very serious problem.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member whether he can tell me where that amount appears in the budget?

That is a question which the hon. the Minister has time to answer. It has been appropriated and what is more, it is already being spent. This is evident from the Administration’s report.

Mr. Chairman, one of the important problems in respect of Coloured education, is the immensely rapid growth rate of the Coloured population, the rapid increase of its child population. If I am correct, figures indicate that approximately 40% of the Coloured population is under the age of 14 years. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Piketberg touched on quite a number of problems. I think they were problems that have been covered fully by the report of the Theron Commission. We in these benches agreed to discuss the report in greater depth when a suitable opportunity arose.

†The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central has again returned to an old theme as far as Coloured/White politics is concerned, namely the ineffectiveness of the CRC as an instrument of political negotiation. He referred to the fact that it has circumscribed autonomy and said that, in fact, it does not satisfy the political aspirations of the Coloured people. Because the CRC lies at the heart of the political relationship between Whites and Coloureds and because it lies on a national level, one could perhaps argue that it is therefore more public and more controversial. The Government claims that it is making real progress not so much on the national level, but on a far more local level. This claimed progress is not even on the level of provincial administration, but particularly on local government level, on the level of municipalities and divisional councils. The Government refers in this regard to the system of management and consultative committees which it has established and on which White and Coloured people can pay more attention to concrete matters in a more intimate atmosphere. If we read the schedule to the department’s annual report, we see it is said there that there are in fact 89 such committees. According to the Theron Commission there are already 100 of these committees. There are in fact 16 other types of committees, which are not management committees. Meanwhile, I want to ask the hon. the Minister why the annual report only goes as far as March 31, 1975. Is there any reason why it only covers the period up to that date? This means that we are now discussing information which is about 14 months outdated. Be it as it may, we have 100 of these management committees. The purpose of a management committee, the policy behind it, seems to be its enabling the Government to create consultative committees. Initially they are consultative committees, but from there they move on to a local government level to become management committees. The idea would seem to be that they ultimately end up as fully-fledged autonomous municipalities looking after the affairs of the Coloured people in a local government sense.

During this whole process of development, as envisaged in the policy, the management committee is situated in a group area which is under the jurisdiction of a White municipality or a White-controlled divisional council. The ideal would seem to be that eventually, within the same jurisdictional area, one would have an autonomous dual municipality, making use of the same community facilities in order to run that community effectively. The schedule to the annual report states, in paragraph 8.1—

Mr. Chairman, I would very much like the hon. the Minister to listen to this, because it is stated here that negotiations have reached an advanced stage. If this is so, I am sure the hon. the Minister will be able to give us more information as to what the possible outcome of these negotiations will be. As far as my information goes, and from my practical experience in talking to members of White city councils and of managements committees, this whole system does not work. As it is conceived, it in fact seems that it cannot work. It cannot work, because there are certain fundamental practical problems involved. I want to mention a number of those problems. I would appreciate the hon. the Minister’s reaction to how the negotiations referred to in the schedule, are going to overcome the existing problems.

The first problem is the consultative nature of management committees. In relation to White local government bodies they can only recommend and advise on matters, while the White bodies—the White municipality or the White divisional council, are under no obligation to accept such recommendations or such advice. They are there in a purely consultative capacity, or in an advisory capacity. If one looks at provincial ordinances in which the regulations are specified with regard to these management committees, this can be clearly seen. Under the headings of purpose, functions and powers, it is clearly stated that these management committees are purely advisory, consultative bodies, that they have no effective decision-making powers. I do not believe I have to read to the hon. the Minister what these powers are. It is stated here that one can recommend, that one can ask for advice, that one can inspect, etc. That is about it. Nothing more can be done about it.

That is the first problem that one sits with. That is the first reason why these management committees do not work effectively at all on a local government level. The second problem—which is a major one; and the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central referred to it at the national level, but it is equally true on a local level—is the question of splitting revenue. A local government or a municipality must use its revenue to provide, amongst other things, electricity, housing, housing development or township development, etc. No equitable formula has yet been found by means of which one can split revenue on a local government within the same jurisdictional area, and can have two bodies functioning autonomously and effectively.

Either the Coloured management committee must raise the revenue from an impoverished community within its own particular group area, or it must simply wait for handouts from the White municipality, and then independently administer whatever revenue it has. Alternatively, it must simply take what it gets by way of the decisions of the White municipality. This is a fundamental problem at local government level where a community is concerned about things like street lighting, sewerage, housing, etc.

A third problem is the lack of decision-making experience. No Coloured management committee member has any voting rights on White municipalities or a White divisional council. He can sit here occasionally on invitation, but he cannot effectively influence the decisions that are taken or participate in taking them. In this way there is no opportunity for him in gaining experience as a local administrator.

A fourth problem is the one of clumsiness. It is a particular problem I have come across when talking to White municipal councillors. They maintain that they have to consult with the management committee, that it is time-consuming and that they cannot implement their decisions as speedily as they would otherwise have liked to do. The department claims that it has reached advanced stages of negotiations at local government level. It also says—and I quote the following from page 30 of the Schedule—

This was as on 31 March 1975. In the previous annual report this was mentioned as well, so the hon. the Minister has had almost two years, if not more, to find out what can be done about this particular problem. The Erika Theron Commission sat for three years and covered the whole spectrum of Coloured politics, socio-political problems, economic problems, etc. This is one very important problem and the hon. the Minister has had more than two years to come forward with concrete suggestions of how one should split up municipalities so that they can function autonomously and separately in an effective manner. I quite simply believe that it cannot be done, because I think that at the local level we have exactly the same problem that we have at the national level. On local level we have exactly the same political impasse that we have at national level. The basic, fundamental problem that we are back at, is the problem of effective political participation. Either one decentralizes power effectively to these people and ask yourself if it can be done—I believe it cannot be done at local government level—or one must find some manner of accommodating these people in the decision-making bodies so that they can participate in administration at local government level themselves.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to raise a few thoughts. We are in the difficult position that while the Opposition parties say certain good things about the Coloureds, we are convinced that the Opposition parties are not prepared to help the Coloureds. The Opposition is raising expectations among these people which can never be fulfilled, not even under the policy of the NP. These Opposition parties are now creating expectations among the Coloureds and this causes frustration. We must not allow this to happen to people for whom we want to create a future as a nation. Therefore I want to ask that we should help these people and show them the way they should follow because we are the only people who stand by them, and who can show them the way then they sometimes see certain things in the wrong light. These people live with us and we know that it is our duty to help them and to live together with them. We want to give the Coloureds the assurance that we as Government will definitely not leave them in the lurch. This Government is responsible for their progress and development and therefore we shall do our duty and sacrifice certain things in order to bring this about.

Recently the hon. member for Parktown made a quotation to the effect that if one does not have experience of a situation oneself, one cannot express oneself on it or participate in a discussion on it. When the Coloured population complains and when they want to develop to adulthood, it is the NP that understands their endeavours and desires and wants to satisfy them, that wants to see their desires realized. The Afrikaner nation also experienced the struggle for self-identity. There was a time when the jackal had his lair and birds had nests in which to live, but the Afrikaner did not have a shelter against the heat of the sun and protection from the cold of the night. The Afrikaner endured those difficult times of suppression, retrogression and poverty. At times the Afrikaner was a stranger in his own country and he can therefore testify to these things. After all, he knows suffering. However, when the Afrikaner wants to hold up his past to other people, there are certain persons, members of the Opposition parties and journalists, who take it amiss that he holds up his past as an example to others. There is no other population group who knows the Coloured nation and it needs better than the Afrikaner nation does. We on this side of the House are thoroughly aware of the backlog the Coloured people have to eliminate.

However, we find newspapers and members of the Opposition who are making things difficult for us. We are aware of the fact that we have a difficult way behind us. Therefore we know that today there is a large percentage of Coloureds who are independent and who are able to help to create their own future with great responsibility. I have some of these people in my own area and I can call them as witnesses in order to testify to the fact that there are people in the Coloured community who do not have to take second place to any White people when it comes to responsibility and creating their own future. I want to tell those people that they have a major duty towards their own people, to a large extent have a backlog to eliminate.

There are also those won’t works and do not want to form part of the labour force of the Coloured people who have to help to bring about their own advancement. I myself am concerned about that portion of the Coloured population. Not only do they not want to work; they are also unproductive. They must learn how to work, to work hard, for their advancement. We Afrikaners were also poor, but we never begged for alms. We worked to get somewhere. We were very poor, and many of us are still poor today. However, the Afrikaner is an example to other people to work hard, to stand up and to live. We had to do without many things in our lifetime. The Coloureds must know these things. We had to do without many things, but there are certain things which have never been lost to us; we retained them. The first of these is our pride, and the second is our honour. [Interjections.] If we may address a plea to the Coloureds today, then we say to them that if they can maintain these two things, they have already maintained half of what is necessary for their own advancement. [Interjections.]

Order!

In conclusion, it grieves me to see that there are people who do not want to work, and it does make no difference what the colour of that person’s skin is. It grieves me to see that in this country where so much can be done, there are people who are not productive. However, it also grieves me when I see that there are people who, while they cause their labourers to work too much, labourers who devote their lives to the advancement of certain people, are not prepared to pay the labourer his wage.

Therefore I say that I am not addressing a plea to the Coloureds alone. I am also addressing a plea to our Whites in this connection. When labour and service are provided with greater responsibility and productivity, it is also the duty of the employer to see that these people are able to make a decent living. Therefore I want to ask our own people to create that relationship for their own labourers, because there is nothing which creates a better relationship between master and labourer, if they treat one another honestly, when the necessary provision is made for these people to be able to make a decent living.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Prieska referred to the question of helping the Coloured community. We on this side of the House, as the official Opposition, through the words of the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central, clearly indicated that that was the very object and view of the United Party, namely to assist the Coloured community, particularly in view of the fact that education and vocational training are so vitally important, so that they may assist themselves in their own development. That is why the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central posed the question as to whether the amount of R174 million to be voted by this Committee today to the CRC is adequate and sufficient to achieve the upliftment of the Coloured community. It is on these lines that I would also like to address the hon. the Minister. I too wish to refer to the question of the adequacy of the R174 million which is to be voted here today.

We know, if we look at the present situation, that there is indeed a great deal of work to be undertaken to bring about the upliftment of the socio-economic position of the Coloured community. It is pleasing to note that the present hon. Minister was formerly the Deputy Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions. As such he is fully aware of the welfare services that have to be provided for the Coloured community. We know that to develop a stable community one has to have adequate and professional welfare services to assist these people. If we look at the figures which have been tabled, we soon see the difficulties that exist among the Coloured community, and particularly among the young children. The hon. member for Piketberg referred to the high percentage of children amongst the Coloured community, and if we look at the figures which were made available to us, we are shocked to see the very high degree of juvenile delinquency and the high incidence of crime among many of these young people. There are 1 118 young people presently being detained at three reformatory schools, as well as some 600-odd children at schools of industry. When one sees these figures and one knows the conditions under which many of these people have to exist, one realizes the necessity to have planned assistance through professional welfare services as a top priority to assist these people. Then there is the question of alcoholism, dagga and drug abuse, as well as illegitimacy, which adds to the problem.

In regard to illegitimacy, in reply to a question in this House earlier this session, the figures indicated that the illegitimacy rate among the Coloured people at present is over 33 000 a year, which means that 90 children per day are being born among the Coloured people who are illegitimate. This places a tremendous strain on the various welfare services that have to be provided. When one studies the amount that has to be allocated by the CRC in respect of maintenance grants, one sees that 24 831 maintenance grants have to be paid, which amounts to over R12 million a year. These aspects are all indicative of the problems which are facing this part of our community, and we wish to see the Coloured community assisted in every way as our fellow South Africans. I think it has been clearly indicated by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central that it is on this basis that we wish to see that they assist themselves and at the same time that there should be adequate assistance granted by this Parliament to ensure that the CRC is able to grant assistance where it is desperately required. That is why the position of the subsidization of welfare posts and welfare services places the CRC in a hamstrung situation in that they by resolution have resolved on several occasions to bring about parity in so far as the benefits and social pensions which are paid to the Coloured people, as compared to those paid to the White section of the community, are concerned. We realize that this cannot be achieved over a short period. It has to be done over a staged period, gradually, but I think it is imperative that the Government should make available funds to ensure that there is an acceleration as far as the closing of that gap is concerned. Then, if we look at the position of the social workers, many of whom are receiving subsidies, and the organizations that are rendering welfare services, some of which are organizations which render services both to the White and the Coloured community, it is clear that they find it increasingly difficult to achieve their object of doing meaningful work as far as preventive work is concerned amongst the community so as to encourage and ensure a healthy and stable family life. This is being hindered by virtue of the fact that they are unable to receive subsidies for additional social workers whom they wish to employ to work among the Coloured community. These are, of course, Coloured social workers working among their own people.

It has become evident that a plan, formulated by the Government together with the CRC, is required to bring about an improvement in these services. Such a plan is also required to bring about an improved educational system, vocational training, housing and welfare services. As far as the welfare services are concerned, this will require additional assistance from the Government to help with the training of Coloured social workers to work amongst their own community. The department, in its report, has pointed to the serious shortage of social workers in the department itself as well as Coloured social workers in the private sector. A greater responsibility has to be found as far as family life is concerned and this is the very essence of social work. This can only be achieved with the guidance and assistance of professional social workers where family life has broken down. It is also their task to improve the situation of these people not only as far as the young people are concerned but also as far as caring for the older section of the Coloured community is concerned. The Coloured people are now no longer able in many instances to accommodate aged parents due to the fact that smaller units are being provided. Accommodation for these aged persons to remain with their children is not available. This means that additional homes for the aged have to be established, and as the hon. the Minister, as a former Deputy Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions knows, the only way to achieve this object is to encourage the private sector and to encourage welfare agencies to provide such accommodation.

The question of assisting these people to remain within the community is one that is also wound up with the fact that there is a disparity between the social benefits paid to the Whites and the social benefits paid to the Coloured community. This will have to be narrowed, and narrowed expeditiously. If one looks at the announcement that was made at the time of the budget, one will recall that the hon. the Minister of Finance at that time indicated that certain increases would be granted as far as social benefits to the Coloured community and to the various other racial groups are concerned. If one looks at these figures one will soon realize that although there will be an increase from 1 October, of some R4,50 per month for the Coloured community and R8 per month for the White community, there is a difference of R30 between the amount now being paid to the White pensioners and the amount being paid to the Coloured pensioners. When these increases are granted, however, the pension gap between what is paid to the Whites and what is paid to the Coloured community, will be R33,50. This is also connected with the means test that is applicable. When the position of the Whites and the Coloureds are compared, one sees that the amount involved in the case of Coloured people is exactly half of what the Whites are allowed to receive. When it comes to the means test, a White social pensioner is able to claim a full pension with an income of R42 per month, whereas a Coloured will only be able to claim such a pension at an income of R21 per month. Whereas White social pensioners are allowed to have R9 800 as far as assets are concerned, the Coloureds are allowed only R4 900. Therefore the application of a ratio basis in determining these benefits is one which causes a great deal of concern amongst many members of the Coloured community. The hon. the Minister may say in his reply that this is a matter for the Administration of Coloured Affairs and that it is for the CRC to consider these matters. However, this brings me back to the very point that was raised earlier, and that is the whole question of this amount that appears on the estimates, of R174 million, which is to be allocated to the CRC.

We know that there are many occasions when it becomes increasingly obvious that discrimination in regard to social benefits, the means tests and various other matters concerning the welfare service that has to be provided, should be eliminated when at all possible. That is why I ask the hon. the Minister to give immediate attention to finding ways and means of improving the position of the Coloured people and to ensure that more adequate welfare services are provided for them, to see that those of their own people who wish to be trained as social workers are given every opportunity to qualify as professional social workers, who could then assist the community, either by being employed by the department or by being employed by welfare agencies. These welfare agencies have found that this problem has increased tremendously in recent times and if one looks at the position, in the report, of the Coloured social workers, one is appalled at the enormous load they have to carry as far as their work-load is concerned as social workers. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I think that in general we can agree with the hon. member for Umbilo in his emphasizing of the general upliftment of the Coloureds, specifically welfare services. If I were a member of the Coloured Representative Council I would have suggested one thing, namely that a dynamic campaign be launched by the Coloureds to uplift these people and assist and help them in the sphere of welfare work. However, I cannot quite agree with the hon. member for Umbilo in his plea for equal pensions. In the nature of things, this will probably happen in due course. Then there are of course a few other problems, too, which would have to be solved, problems which we already have to deal with in the rural areas, namely that pensions are being abused, and I therefore foresee that if the pensions are increased, we will have even greater abuse. I am not against this, but it goes together with upliftment, the correct management and correct use of money.

I should like to refer to the Coloured farm labourers and without any fear of a contradiction, make the statement that some of the best relationships between White and Coloured are to be found on our farms. Since the establishment of the agricultural industry in South Africa, the Coloured has been the chief source of labour, in the Cape Province in particular. It is estimated that approximately 15% of the economically active Coloured population is employed in the agricultural sector. The number of Coloured labourers in agriculture has remained fairly constant over the past 15 years; it has remained constant in spite of many major developments which have taken place in this sphere. The labour situation in the greater Western Cape is quite serious, and may become more serious. There are various reasons for this state of affairs. The first is the growing concentration of Coloureds in the existing industrial centres. The industries of the Western Cape attract the Coloureds away from the rural areas and the farms. We spoke about the squatting problem and its causes in this House recently. This afternoon I should like to make the appeal here that advice bureaux be established in the larger towns in the Cape rural areas, under the aegis of the Administration of Coloured Affairs, bureaux which may be manned by the Coloureds themselves in order to furnish guidance and information to the Coloureds of the rural areas in this connection. Many of these people simply act on impulse, move to the city, are led astray by others, by the good things they are told will be theirs provided they move to the city, but when they come here, they find just the opposite. Many of them come here without having accommodation, although there is indeed accommodation in the rural areas. I think that such advice bureaux, manned by Coloureds trained to afford guidance to their people, will eliminate much suffering and misery. There is yet another important reason, and this is the poor light in which the Coloured farm labourer is often viewed. There are certain daily newspapers that are guilty of pinpointing certain unfortunate cases and then making generalizations. It is by no means my intention to maintain that everything is 100% right. There is indeed poor Coloured housing on many farms, housing which is unsightly in many cases. But this is housing which will have to be removed in time and replaced by decent housing.

In spite of everything that is said, in my opinion, attention must also be given to the approach to this question. I want to refer to what is being done by the Cape Agricultural Union. This organization distributes pamphlets and other information among farmers’ associations. I refer to Die verantwoordelikheid van die boer as werkgewer, a publication which appeared at the end of last year and contains suggestions for improving labour conditions on farms. I also want to draw attention to the joint agricultural committee which consists of five representatives of the Cape Agricultural Union and five members of the Coloured Persons Representative Council. Quite a few meetings have already been held on various occasions, at which, among other things, housing, family planning and the remuneration of farm labourers were discussed. I can foresee that much will be achieved when more meetings of this nature are held in future.

I also want to emphasize the approach of the employer himself—in this case the farmer. I think we must mention the relationship to be found between the Coloured farm labourer and the farmer on most of our farms. There is also the farmer’s personal interest in the labourer. The farmer assists the labourer with advice and material aid and also gives him guidance and encouragement. All these things contribute towards a favourable attitude and a happy community on our farms.

There is also the question of remuneration. In my opinion this, too, is a matter which ought to be given constant attention. However, we must also bear in mind that the labour conditions in agriculture differ completely from those in other undertakings, because the farmer does not only have to pay the Coloured labourer a cash wage, he has also to provide him with a house and many, many other services. A wage scale cannot therefore be prescribed in this connection. I nevertheless believe that all employers on our farms must be satisfied that the remuneration he pays his labourers, is sufficient. The test he can set himself, is: Are my worker and his family well-clothed and fed? He must therefore make sure that his employee and his family can make a good living. The salary structure must be adjusted to keep pace with the increasing cost of living.

There is also another matter which I should like to raise. I refer to the training of the Coloured farm labourer. I believe that in farm work there should be the opportunity for the productive, hard-working and responsible worker to improve his position so that he can consider farm work a career and not simply a way of making a living. Therefore training is essential. I should like to mention the Kromme Rhee training centre under the supervision of the Administration of Coloured Affairs. If one looks at the annual report of the department one notices that there has been an improvement every year in the number of enrolments. In 1974 there were 311 Coloured farm labourers present at that institution for training.

I think I will be excused if I do in fact refer to the Erika Theron Commission without breaking our agreement. The matter to which I should like to refer, is not a controversial one. The report recommends that an intensive campaign be launched in order to bring to the attention of farmers the urgent necessity for the full utilization of Kromme Rhee for the training of farm labourers. Our farmers would like to have their people trained. Last year I visited various farming associations in my constituency and I became aware of the number of problems which farmers experience when they want to send their labourers to Kromme Rhee. Kromme Rhee complies with the expectations and the institution is already full.

However, as I requested the hon. the Minister two years ago, I want to ask once again whether we cannot extend the training facilities afforded by an institution like Kromme Rhee. Is it not possible to establish similar institutions in the Southern Cape, the North-Western Cape and in some of the other parts of the Cape as well? There are problems involved in sending the Coloured labourer from the farm to Kromme Rhee. It may happen that he does not want to go there because he does not want to go so far away from his people. He does not want to be in a strange environment. There is also the farmer’s argument with which I agree: If a few workers from a particular community are sent to Kromme Rhee, on their return the farmers vie with each other for the services of workers like these and it may happen that the worker may be lured from the farmer who took the trouble of sending him to Kromme Rhee by a higher wage. If more institutions like Kromme Rhee could be founded in the Cape, I foresee that many more farmers would make use of them and that we would have Coloureds on our farms who would be trained and would be able to provide a good service.

Mr. Chairman, there is very little of what the hon. member for Oudtshoorn has said that I can disagree with. What he said was constructive. In point of fact, it sounded exactly like a United Party speech, and I therefore congratulate him on it.

The Coloured vote cannot be discussed in isolation—that is the point I want to make. I therefore took it upon myself to consult the annual report of the Commissioner of Prisons and also answers given to me by the Minister of Police in regard to Coloured police. In regard to the Coloured people of South Africa, the report of the Commissioner of Prisons for the period 1 July 1974 to 30 June 1975 makes tragic reading. The Coloured prison population for that period was 41 702, i.e. 33 907 Coloured males, plus 7 795 Coloured females. This is out of a prison population of 297 233. In other words, the ratio of the Coloured prison population to that of the Coloured population as a whole was 1:58 for that year. When one looks at the numbers of first offenders and recidivists, it is shocking to see how many Coloureds go back to gaol time and time again. There were 6 093 males and 1 526 females with more than three convictions with current sentences of under two years and 1 202 males and 40 females with current sentences of more than two years. These statistics make tragic reading. One sees that there were 2 829 Coloured males and 679 Coloured females under the age of 18 years, 2 464 males and 823 females under the age of 19 years and 12 857 males and 2 921 females in the 21-29 age group. The relevant table indicates that the present population increases in direct proportion to the increase in the age group. Beyond the age of 30 years, however, this tendency is reversed. One wonders what is happening as far as our Coloured people are concerned. I do not consider the figures in this report in any way boring. On the contrary, I find them tragic, but I do not want hon. members to start crying right away.

That would spoil their holiday.

Yes, it would spoil their holiday. When I asked the hon. the Minister of Police how many Coloured police there were, I received a written reply from him. On 3 May he told me that there were altogether 1 672 Coloured policemen in the whole of the Republic of South Africa to serve a Coloured population of about 2 500 000. Unfortunately I did not ask him how many Coloured police reservists there were. He also told me that of close on 1 000 police stations in the Republic only 9 were manned and administered by Coloureds. These are Elim, Genadendal, Paarl East, Steinkopf, Bishop Lavis, Bridgeton, De Gamaskop, Mannenberg and Rietfontein. This was his reply to my question. This shows that there is something wrong as far as the Coloured people are concerned and that there is somehow or other a lack of liaison, I am sorry to say, between the departments. I want to urge the Minister to act in close liaison with the Minister of Justice, the Minister of Prisons and the Minister of Police, who happens to be the same person. At other times they were different people.

The National Institute for Crime Prevention and Rehabilitation of Offenders some time ago did a survey of the incidence of crime in the Cape Coloured community during the years 1966 to 1967. It showed that the Coloureds were well in the lead on the overall convictions per 100 000. It also shows that for drunkenness Coloured convictions were well ahead of Bantu convictions while for theft the Coloureds were also well ahead of the Bantu. They are the main offenders, as any policeman will tell you.

It was also found that differences were due to social factors, that lower class individuals are thrown into a state of normlessness and because of the capitalistic nature of the South African economy which prescribes Western success goals to all its members, opportunities for realization of the success goal are not equally available. Because legislation seeks rigidly to maintain the differential location of the non-White population groups in the social structure, the South African economy is therefore mal-integrated with the polity in the sense that it can only continue to develop and expand while there is a premium on the success goal through the acquisition of commodities. The inequalities created in the availability of income, job opportunities, education and collective bargaining limits the upwards mobility and opportunity for acquisition of commodities defined as necessary for success. Coloureds are, by and large, denied the opportunity to realize this goal hence the high rate of crime and deviant behaviour. Coloureds particularly are vulnerable because they are entirely Western orientated, they are highly urbanized and therefore are directly exposed to the Western success goal. Their standard of living, however, is low—they face deprivation of income, job opportunities and education, and therefore they are disadvantageously ranked in the social structure. Nicro also conducted a survey here in the centre of Cape Town in 1971. It was a survey of shoplifting. It was found that, during the period 1 July 1971 to June 30, 1972, there were 374 cases of shoplifting in the central area of Cape Town. Bantu constituted 6% of the shoplifters, Coloureds and Asians 72% and Whites 22%. It was also found that more than half of the offenders were under 20 years of age.

We have been told that poverty creates a sub-culture of disadvantaged people. A person who has clashed with the law is rated high in terms of personal prestige, and one who has been in prison or who has received corporal punishment is highly regarded in the value system of this sub-culture of the materially and socially deprived Coloured community. He becomes the leader of the gang which terrorizes the neighbourhood. Human life is not valued very highly. He strives for immediate gratification. Only the immediate community is of significance, i.e. those on the streets in the neighbourhood. Obtaining education, learning a trade or setting up a home, take too long and little stigma is attached to imprisonment. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Umlazi made an interesting speech. He will probably tell us on a later occasion what he was really aiming at. What I did find interesting, were the figures he gave us in connection with the manning of police stations. I think that this is a sign of progress. Progress is being made in this respect as well as in many other spheres. Later on in my speech I shall point to other progress made by the Coloured community.

To begin with I should like to refer to the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central. He referred to the hon. the Minister as someone who constitutes a whole Cabinet on his own. I want to tell the hon. member that I appreciate the great respect he has for the hon. the Minister. I share that respect with him. The hon. the Minister is a practical person, and I believe that this, too, will enable him to manage this difficult portfolio in a very effective way. Together with his officials—so I believe—he is the friend of the Coloured community. The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central made another interesting statement. He alleged that the Coloureds were not a separate population group with their own identity. If he is correct, I doubt whether the UP is politically honest in their policy. If the UP does not consider the Coloureds as a separate population group with their own identity, they have no right to make special provision in their policy for accommodating the Coloureds.

Come on Uncle Wally, you must listen now!

The NP …

You are seeking a new policy once again!

Yes, they would have to formulate a new policy after the things which the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central has said here today. [Interjections.]

Order!

The NP believes in political rights for everyone. This is more than can be said about the unofficial opposition. The NP has given political rights to the Blacks and the Coloureds, people who never had them before. The NP gave political rights to the Coloureds in all the provinces. The NP also believes that a political policy must take into account certain basic aspects, for example the provision of food, of energy, education, defence, social welfare and many other things. These things can be considered as the basic politics of a nation, as its bread and butter politics.

In the second place, the NP also believes in political order and in South Africa, with its heterogenous population, a political system can only succeed if the basic aspects of the national economy are provided for, as well as the political orderliness which depends upon the reconciliation of political interests of the various population groups. I am afraid that the Government’s task of maintaining political order in this country is not made easier by the official and unofficial Opposition. Expectations are created by means of speeches made here in the House and elsewhere. I believe that the attitude of Mr. Sonny Leon in the CRC has been supported by speeches made here in this House and elsewhere by members of the official and unofficial Opposition. The NP realized a long time ago that under-developed population groups must be uplifted and helped to help themselves, not only for their own sake, but also for South Africa’s sake. That is why the NP accepted as stated policy before 1948—also, of course, in accordance with the Christian National principles upon which its policy is based—to take the hand of the Coloured in the socio-economic sphere and lead him to full development.

I want to state today, for anyone who wants to listen, that whereas a movement closer to the Coloureds is being spoken of, and a movement away from the Coloureds is being spoken of by others the NP and the Afrikaner nation have always been a hands breadth away from the Coloureds. This was the case on our farms here in the Western Cape where we took their hands not only in the figurative sense, but in the literal sense, too, when we had to throw the bags of wheat upon the wagons. We took his hand in that when he was in a problems situation, such as illness, we called the doctor and made provision for a school for him and we made provision for him in the field of religion as well. This was the case in the political sphere as well, where we guided him from a political dispensation which meant nothing to him, to a system in which he has meaningful political rights. Our hon. Prime Minister has repeatedly extended the hand of co-operation to the Coloureds. Whether they appreciate it and whether they accepted it, is not the issue at this stage. This Government also took the hand of the Coloured in the economic sphere. Great progress has been made in all spheres of the life of the Coloured population over the past few years. The PRP is very fond of referring to a “redistribution of wealth”, but they have never at any stage told us what they mean by it. They want to win the sympathy of the Coloureds with this vague concept, but they are only creating false expectations among these people. There is no short cut to economic progress and development for any nation.

It can only take place by the difficult road of hard work, purposefulness and sacrifice. It has never been the aim of the NP to offer the Coloured a short-cut to prosperity by means of the aid we offer him. Nor do we do it because of a misplaced feeling of guilt towards the Coloureds. Nor do we offer economic assistance to the Coloured due to the fact that we want to justify ourselves. I want to state that the economic development of the Coloured and everything it entails has been phenomenal under this Government. I wonder whether since 1950 there has been a nation anywhere in the world that has developed as rapidly as the Coloureds have in the economic sphere. I do not want to allege that everything is perfect at this stage, because there are still many shortcomings. For instance, there is too great a divergence between the “haves” and the “have nots” among the Coloured population. There is still a vast gap between the various income groups. The NP has made it possible for the Coloured to improve his own situation. A new class of entrepreneur has come into being.

In this connection one must refer to the very good work being done by the Coloured Development Corporation. If one looks at the annual report for 1974-’75, one notes that the Coloureds already have an entrepreneuring function in various fields of industry. On page 2 of the report the fields in which the Coloureds are already entrepreneurs are mentioned, inter alia, retreaders, shipbuilders, building contractors, dry cleaners, panel beaters and spray painters, hotels, drive-in cinemas, retail, furniture builders, motor dealers, restaurants, business centres, manufacturers and exporters. Then, too, there are projects tackled by the Coloured Development Corporation in the interests of the Coloureds to create employment opportunities for him. For instance, there is the Coloured bank, from which we still expect a great deal and which will afford the Coloured the opportunity to run his own banking institution and invest his capital in his own bank. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to congratulate my hon. colleague, the member for Malmesbury, on a very neat speech. Because I want to deal with a completely different subject, he will excuse me for not saying anything more about his speech.

For the past few hundred years the Coloured people have been closely connected with agriculture for a great part of their existence in South Africa, but only as employees. With the advent of a new era of prosperity and development for the Coloureds during the past two or three decades, the position of the employee has changed and he has become an employer or entrepreneur in many cases. The building industry and certain other industries are a good example of this. His love for the land and agriculture is still deeply embedded in the soul of the Coloured person. I, who know them and who am living in a constituency where there is 1¼ million ha to 1½ million ha of their rural areas, know the deep love of the Coloured person for agriculture and for the land. Therefore I know that it is the desire of every Coloured person, of a large percentage of Coloureds in any event, to return to the farm. Hon. members should realize, however, that the man who has progressed to the status of an entrepreneur of an enterprise does not want to return as an ordinary farm labourer. We know that we in South Africa have a system of private enterprise and private ownership. This also applies in respect of land and especially in respect of farm land. We in South Africa know—we need not argue this point—that the owner of a private farm is a better farmer, and that the owner of private land looks after that land more carefully than a man who is farming on somebody else’s land. It is a fact that there are only two bases on which the Coloured person in South Africa can acquire land on which he can farm. In the short time I have at my disposal I shall discuss the two bases as briefly and as quickly as is possible.

The one basis on which the Coloured person can own land on which he can farm is by becoming a citizen, as it is called, of some rural area. In this case the Coloured person cannot obtain private ownership of land but he can obtain communal grazing rights. Of this I have very costly experience, for I see it every day of my life. If a small shower falls in the Richtersveld, every Coloured farmer moves to that area and the young grass is trampled underfoot and destroyed. If it rains somewhere else, they move there. It is painful to drive through those areas today and to see how the areas have been destroyed. I do not blame the Coloured people for that, however, for I submit that if one puts a human being, any type of human being, whether he is White, Brown or Black, in a communal reserve, he realizes that if he does not move immediately to a fresh grazing area with his stock, somebody else will do so and he will succumb. This is the problem those people have to contend with and unfortunately it is a fact—I am speaking under correction, but I do believe that I am correct—that virtually all Coloured rural areas are communal reserves. The result is that everyone has to move as fast as he can to take advantage of fresh grazing, etc. The management boards, to whom I take off my hat, have an impossible task. They are simply unable to exercise control over this state of affairs. Therefore I should like to ask that the Coloured rural areas be sub-divided and sold to meritorious Coloured farmers. The amount realized should be used directly in the interests of the Coloured people of those areas. Every citizen, as these people call themselves, has a few goats, a few donkeys and so on, necessary or unnecessary, and the management boards have no control over these people and as a result they are never able to control the situation correctly. However, I shall leave the matter at that. I hope the hon. the Minister will give this matter his attention, because I know that he is very interested in it.

There is good, uncultivated land in the Coloured rural areas. I am referring more particularly to irrigation land, to which I have referred on previous occasions, especially in the Richtersveld, on the banks of the Orange River. Virtually 10 000 ha of land can be subdivided into smallholdings of 10 ha each in that area and 1 000 Coloured farmers can be settled on such smallholdings. I should like to ask, however, that the land should in heaven’s name not be made available as communal reserves. The land should be sold to the Coloured people and the money should be used in the interests of the other Coloured people of that area. The land to which I have just referred, is not sufficient, however, and therefore I should like to ask this evening, and I know that I am entering a field which may perhaps be such a popular one, that a committee consisting of White and Coloured people, of sensible people, be appointed to select and zone land in the vicinity of existing Coloured rural areas and in the vicinity of existing Coloured group areas which the Coloured people may buy. Hon. members know that in name Coloured people are able to buy land in the White areas under permit. I want to be honest, however, and say to hon. members that if that were to happen in my constituency, I would have to oppose it. I think that there is not one member in this hon. House who, if he wants to be honest, would say that he would not do the same. So why should we have to be dishonest? My argument is, therefore, that land which adjoins Coloured rural areas, or Coloured group areas, should be zoned and then purchased by Coloured persons in due course for Coloured occupation. The White farmers living in such areas should sell their land to Coloureds. I ask the Government to give serious consideration to subsidizing the purchase of such land. If we ever want to make a worthwhile people of the Coloureds, we must ensure that they develop pride of ownership, particularly pride of ownership in the agricultural industry. The Coloured person is somebody who has a deep love for agriculture, who loves the land. That is why I am advocating these things. There was another matter I wanted to discuss, but as my time is up, I conclude with this.

Business suspended at 18h30 and resumed at 20h00.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Namaqualand made a positive speech just prior to the adjournment for dinner, and I should like to tell him that we take heart from the fact that he supports our standpoint whole-heartedly as far as the question of land-ownership is concerned. [Interjections.] I hope the hon. the Minister has taken cognizance of that.

I should like to return to a matter broached by the hon. member for Piketberg, and that is the question of parity as regards salaries. I want to discuss it especially in the light of the announcement of the 15% increase in the salaries of teachers as from 1 July 1976. Sir, I really do not know why the hon. the Minister is still playing games with such an important matter at this stage—I cannot describe this in any other way. Yesterday I heard over the radio—and I do not hold it against him—that parity as regards salaries has already been achieved as a result of this increase. [Interjections.] But we must see it in perspective. What we must take into consideration, is that as from 1 July 1976, to see it in perspective, White teachers will be getting a 10% increase and as from 1 January 1977 a further 5% increase. The result of this is that the gap is going to be narrowed only slightly for six months and then it is going to widen once again. I should like to give the hon. the Minister two examples in order to illustrate this. For an M+4 teacher, i.e. a graduate, the gap on the maximum notch of the progression scale is R2 100 per year at present. After July’s adjustment it is going to be decreased to R2 064, a decrease of R36, i.e. R3 per month. But after January it will once again increase to R2 550, i.e. the gap between the scales. Are we narrowing the gap? No, we are not.

Explain what you are saying. I cannot understand it.

It seems as if the hon. the Minister is unable to understand this. He does not know what the top notch of the progression scale for the M+4 teacher is. It is elementary. It is as easy as two plus two. But let me give him another example. For an M+4 teacher on the minimum notch of the standard scale, the difference is R960 at the moment. [Interjections.] The hon. the Minister does not even know what the scales are. After July, as a result of the 15% increase for Coloureds and the 10% increase for Whites, it will be R899. The gap is being narrowed for six months, and after 1 January 1977 that gap is going to widen to R1 025 once again. Therefore we are not progressing; in fact, we are retrogressing. The time has arrived, as far as this matter is concerned, for us to achieve parity in salaries for the Coloured people. We must not play games with this. The globular expenditure requested for education in the estimates is influenced by various factors, and I can tell the hon. the Minister what the principal factors are: The erection and maintenance costs of schools, teachers’ colleges and universities; the provision of school books and furniture and equipment; and thirdly, the salaries of the staff. I want to deal with the salary aspect only, and I want to put it to the hon. the Minister at once that the reason why we do not have parity of salaries as yet, is because the department has never taken the trouble, as far as I am concerned, to determine precisely what the financial implications of it will be, and as far as the hon. the Minister is concerned, it seems to me as though he does not even know what the salary scales are. I invite them to do so; then the hon. the Minister and his department and the Treasury will really be surprised, because they will find that such a step is not beyond the Government’s financial means at all. The reason for this is to be found in the fact that Coloured teachers have low academic qualifications at the present time. This is something which I regret, looking at it from an academic point of view; but looking at it from the financial point of view, it may mean that we have the advantage of the financial implications of parity of salaries being very slight. If we can effect this now, we shall not have problems in future, because the only thing that will happen in the future, is a gradual increase in additional expenditure as new teachers qualify.

One of the basic errors which people make in maintaining that, financially speaking, it is impossible for the State to bring about parity in education, is that they simply take the per capita cost for White pupils and multiply this by the number of Coloured children at school, without their having proper regard to two important factors. The first is the spread of high school and primary school pupils. This affects the per capita cost. The second factor is a proper analysis of the academic qualifications and the salary categories of the teachers in the various departments. I do not want to draw a comparison between Coloured and White education, because to a certain extent this is unrealistic, but between Coloured and Indian education, to illustrate, on the one hand, how far the Coloureds still are behind the Indians at the present time and, on the other hand, to indicate that although parity of salaries exist between Indians and Coloureds, the cost per pupil in Indian Education is very much higher. The ratio of the cost per pupil in respect of Whites as against Coloureds is, as the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central put it, one to four, and in Indian Education, one to three. There are two reasons for this. Firstly, Indian Education has a larger percentage of pupils at high school and, secondly, although their qualifications as teachers are still poor, they exceed those of the Coloured teachers by far. On the basis of information furnished by the hon. the Minister and in the light of the position on 19 February 1975, we can now draw certain comparisons: As far as graduate Indian teachers are concerned, 16,6% of the establishment are graduates. For Coloureds it is only 2,97% and for the Bantu, 1,6%. It strikes one that in this respect the position of the Coloured teacher is virtually the same as that of the Bantu. The ratio of graduate Bantu to Coloureds is one to two, whereas the ratio of graduate Coloureds to Indians is one to five. This is as far as the thin layer at the top is concerned, the highly qualified teachers. If we look at the group of teachers with the lowest academic qualifications, those with Std. 8 as their highest academic qualification, we find that as far as the Coloureds are concerned, 62,95% of the establishment is made up of that category. For Indians it is only 13,6%. Once again we have a ratio of almost one to five in favour of the Indians. The only logical conclusion one can draw from this, is that although there are three and a half times more Coloured teachers than Indian teachers in South Africa, the financial implications of parity of salaries for teachers with academic qualifications above matric, i.e. of M+l to M+6, will be smaller in the case of Coloureds. Whereas the hon. member for Piketberg asked for parity just for the M+4, i.e. the graduates, I ask for parity from M+l to M+6. This category constitutes only 27,5% of the total Coloured teaching establishment. Let me just put this point clearly. My plea is not that we should do this for the Coloureds and not for the Indians; my plea is that we should do it for both. On two previous occasions I have pointed out that if one takes the difference in the gap, from the lowest and the highest, and works it out, one finds that it will cost less than R10 million for both, and I want to urge the hon. the Minister to do so. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Durban Central dealt with the matter of parity of salaries and I trust that the hon. the Minister will supply him with an answer. However, there is just one point which I want to rectify, and this is something which the hon. member for Rondebosch said this afternoon when he spoke of our Coloured people as “an impoverished people”. I think the hon. member is making a mistake. We can point out thousands of people amongst the Coloured community who have become economically strong, even stronger than many Whites. I do not think that we can speak of “the Coloured people as an impoverished community or people” any longer.

This evening I want to say a few words about the public relations committees which were established a year or two ago. It is true that the governing party in this House consists chiefly of Afrikaans-speaking people. There are elements outside and inside this House who make this Government out to be heartless, inhuman and a suppressor of national groups in South Africa. I want to try and indicate that the establishment of these relations committees and their operation, render this charge against me as an Afrikaans-speaking person and against the Government, of which I have the privilege to be a member in this House, untrue. Approximately 80 relations committees have been established, and I want to pay tribute to the people who come forward with the idea, viz. the previous Minister of Coloured Relations and the present Minister and his senior staff. These committees afford representatives of both population groups an excellent opportunity for having talks. There is an agreement not to discuss the Theron Commission under this Vote but I find it a pity that this commission has not taken cognizance of these positive steps which were taken and has made no reference to them in its report.

The question can be posed: What were the reasons for establishing these committees? I want to say at once that in this regard new ground was being broken. The object clearly, was and still is today, to make a systematic attempt in the areas local in which we live to eliminate problems by means of dialogue at a local level where communities live and associate with one another, problems which often confused relations between our people in a town or district. When these relations committees were established, it was a proof of the sincerity of the Government to try and eliminate problems by means of dialogue and opportunities for dialogue. The meetings are not occasions when critical, accusatory and reproachful attitudes are adopted towards one another. I think there are people from Worcester sitting in the Gallery, who are members of a relations committee. They, like me, will be able to testify that the disposition amongst those people, who discuss common problems, is very good. There must not be any reproaches or accusations, but an endeavour to eliminate problems which may exist. We cannot deny that the White man and the Coloured man live in a common fatherland. The prosperity of this common fatherland is as important to him as it is to me, and both he and I can contribute together towards developing this common fatherland into something of which we may all be proud. I have no hesitation in saying this. To tell the truth, I am proud of being able to say this. In these relations committees one must not find irresponsible demands being made, problems being considered with antipathy or any egoism in either of the two groups. These committees represent from approximately 1 800 to 2 000 Coloureds and Whites who meet periodically to have talks. These people include cultural, business, educational and church leaders. They are responsible people and although they often have questions in their hearts and feel remorse, they are nevertheless leaders who are prepared to hold discussions with one another in that way, and not behind closed doors either. These people do not conclude treaties or enter into wordy agreements—as the hon. member for Yeoville does from time to time—which, in point of fact, are worthless. Nor do they conduct their talks in a spirit of being disparaging. The 2 000 people who meet in those committees are Christians. They are religious people who talk to one another in a civilized manner so as to see whether they can assist in developing sound relations in our towns and cities and therefore in our country too.

Sound relations between peoples or population groups are, after all, one of the most important factors to ensure peace, progress and advancement in this country of ours. Relations are never static; relations between individuals and groups are never final. Therefore it is important for us to talk to one another, and therefore we are grateful for the fact that the present hon. Minister, at the time when he was Deputy Minister, came forward with this brilliant idea of relations committees. I have no doubt in my mind that the greatest challenge for us in South Africa is to be found in the matter of solving our relations problem. At present, as I have said, there are approximately 2 000 of these people—White and Coloured—who talk to one another with a view to dealing with certain bottlenecks which may cloud relations. They deal with matters which cause problems. Naturally we cannot solve all these problems immediately—of course not! However, as long as people talk to one another, one does not have time to show fists and fight. To talk is to seek the way of peace—as our hon. the Prime Minister indicated—so that points of friction may be eliminated. I think the success of these relations committees is a fine testimony for the Government of South Africa. It is also a fine testimony for those Whites and those Coloureds who can still extend a hand to one another with sincerity and say, “Let us discuss the things which are causing friction, which are bothering us or which may cause impatience in our community.” I think that the people outside, the followers of these leaders, may once again be looking with great respect to the Whites and Coloureds who are prepared to talk to one another in a joint effort to seek the way of peace. I shall not weary hon. members by dealing with the subjects which are discussed. I just want to say that I and colleagues of mine had the privilege of attending the conference in Cape Town earlier this year at which representatives of all these relations committees were present. It was an experience for me to see the good spirit between the leaders of the two population groups. The leaders understand one another. Often they differ from one another, of course, but then they try to discuss the matters on which they differ in a civilized manner and tell one another, “We must endeavour to extend this idea of co-operation, because in this way we are building a country in which all of us will be happy.” [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Worcester referred to the relations committees. I agree with him that such relations committees can be instrumental in bringing about better relations between the population groups in South Africa. We must realize, however, that such committees can only make a limited contribution only as the relations between groups are ultimately determined by the experience the individual has of the attitude of the members of the other groups he meets in his everyday life at the post office, at the police station, at his place of employment, etc.

And at the swimming pool.

It is the attitude between individuals of the various groups that is important in shaping the attitude of one group towards another. These committees do in fact have value, but they must not be seen as substitutes for joint decision-taking as regards those aspects of our lives which affect all of us. On this basis they have a role to play. We must not believe, however, that they will constitute the whole solution. It is the attitude of individual towards individual that will determine the attitude between the groups.

†The hon. the Minister—this is the first time that he has to deal with this portfolio—is aware, I am sure, that normally the seat he is now occupying is the danger seat in the Cabinet. When one looks at the changes that have taken place in the Cabinet—he will have worked this out for himself—one sees that this post is the one which has been held by almost just as many Ministers as there have been governments in Italy. There is constantly change. It is a hot seat. The hon. the Minister has my sympathy. The former members who have graced that seat, have not done so with great distinction. I do not believe that they made a major contribution while they held that post. I wish the hon. the Minister every success, not necessarily for himself as an individual whom I have known for a long time, but in the interests of the Coloured people of South Africa. He is faced with an extremely difficult problem. Although things might change in the future, the vast majority of the Coloured people at the present time reject the basic philosophy and policy which this Minister has to implement. Whether you call it apartheid, baasskap, separate development

Why did you call it “baasskap”?

I do not call it that. I said: “Whether one calls it baasskap …”. In the days of Mr. Strijdom it was called baasskap. It has changed since then and I am pleased that it has changed. Whether hon. members on the other side like it or not, as the policy has been applied and has evolved in practice over the recent years, it has been seen by the Coloured people to be a policy firstly of rejection …

Yes, by agitators.

… not just an ethnic or racial rejection, but a cultural, social, economic and political rejection. It has been seen by the Coloured people as a policy of rejection. Secondly, in practice they have experienced this as a policy of discrimination. The hon. member for Carletonville shakes his head.

Yes.

Of course this is true. Why did Mr. Pik Botha say we were going to move away from discrimination if there was no discrimination? I hope the position changes.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order …

Mr. Chairman, I hope the position changes … [Interjections.]

Order! Hon. members must give the hon. member for Sea Point a chance to continue with his speech.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member a question?

Order!

Mr. Chairman, the symbol of their policy, the personification of their policy was embodied in the Coloured Persons Representative Council. This was to be the symbolic shrine of their policy. This was to be the alternative Parliament for the Coloured people. For all practical intents and purposes that system has collapsed, because first of all the Government treated it with scant respect year after year. They did not pay attention even to the recommendations that were made by that council.

Nonsense!

Read the records. Time and time again this happened, until in the end the Government felt so bad about it that it decided to appoint a commission. Why appoint a commission if in fact you have been attending to its requests? The hon. the Minister knows the CPRC has collapsed because it had no real powers. It was operating under the total control of this body. Finally, we had an evolving conflict situation. There was a conflict between the majority party in the Coloured Persons Representative Council and the executive of that council and the Government. I hope the new hon. Minister will be more sensitive, less clumsy, less hamhanded, in handling a very sensitive section of the community than his predecessor in the Government was in handling Mr. Sonny Leon and his executive last year. I agree the situation was moving towards a confrontation. However, the issue that arose was whether the budget of the CRC was discriminatory or not. The council adjourned before it passed the budget. The majority party refused to have anything to do with it. The then Minister then took powers which authorized him to pass that budget. However, instead of doing his work himself, he put his hand on another individual and said: “You must do it for me”, knowing full-well that Mr. Leon would have to repudiate his conscience, his party and the majority in the Council. What was that about? It was about whether that budget was discriminatory or not. Let us look at discriminatory expenditure as one test of discrimination. Let us put down on record that in the 1975 financial year R89 million odd was voted for Coloured education. If that amount had been calculated on a per capita basis, as is applied to White children in South Africa, the amount should have been R314 million. I agree that one cannot bridge that gap overnight, but there must be a much more conscious effort by the Government to bridge the gap. Let us take social welfare and pensions. That budget provided R65 million odd for this purpose. If that amount was calculated on a per capita basis, free from discrimination, it should have been R117 million. The fact is that as a result of the conflict, as a result of the frustration, as a result of the hamhanded attitude of the Government, we now have a situation where the Coloured people for all intents and purposes today have a Parliament that does not meet and a Cabinet that does not exist. With all my regard, bearing in mind the old Progressive Party, for one-women parties, I believe that the Coloured people need more than this one person to handle the whole executive and to deal with its work. I want to know from the hon. the Minister who in fact has been doing the work. Has it been the White officials who have been doing the work of the Coloured executive? When will the Coloured Council meet again? Who has been taking the decisions?

Mr. Chairman, I want to pass quickly from something about which I have been critical to something about which I have a less critical view and which shows a greater degree of progress. That is the question of the University of the Western Cape. There was tension over the formation of the University of the Western Cape. The Coloured youngsters who go there go with a feeling of resentment in that they have been kraaled off from students at other universities. Young people in the main are sensitive to the pressures of society. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Is an hon. member allowed to call the hon. member for Sea Point an agitator?

Order! What hon. member said that?

I did, Sir.

The hon. member must withdraw it.

I withdraw it, Sir.

Mr. Chairman, the general mood at that university has, in spite of difficulties, improved. I believe that the signal factor in the improvement of the general “gesindheid” at the university was the appointment on 1 January 1975 of Dr. R. E. van der Ross, a Coloured educationalist. One may agree or disagree with some of the things he says, but no doubt he is showing considerable ability in handling the students. He has shown an ability in administration and he has shown a great aptitude in the field of public relations. One wants to know from the hon. the Minister what progress is being made at the present time in appointing more Coloured people to top positions. Can he tell us what the position is as far as the administrative staff and the lecturing staff are concerned. What is the position as far as the University council is concerned? Will he tell us exactly when we can expect the new medical faculty, because he has indicated that there will be a medical faculty at the University of the Western Cape. As he knows, this involves the building of a hospital, as well as new university buildings. Can he tell us in specific terms what progress is being made in that direction?

Mr. Chairman, with all the questions the hon. member for Sea Point put towards the end of his speech, he once again convinced me of one basic characteristic of the PRP. That is, namely, that they are intensely disappointed when they come across a Coloured person who is prepared to co-operate with this Government. It is something they simply cannot endure. It hurts them to their very soul. There is confusion in their ranks. A moment ago the hon. member for Rondebosch told us that the Coloureds cannot make the grade as far as full-fledged local government is concerned. Now the hon. member for Sea Point maintains that the Coloureds should in fact have a say in the common interests of White and Brown within the structure of local government. Now I do not know what to think I have learned that one must sweep in front of one’s own door before one tries to sweep in front of another man’s door. It appears to me that this is a norm which is not applicable to the PRP. Surely this is an inconsistency on their part.

The PRP and its hon. leader must please take note of the fact that the world seems dark to a man if one has him put on a pair of dark glasses. Therefore, if they keep on telling the Coloureds and other non-Whites in South Africa that they are being oppressed by this Government and that they are being discriminated against, they must not be surprised and at a loss if these people eventually begin to believe this. Above all, they must also not be surprised and at a loss if we suspect them of inciting these people against the Whites. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Sea Point had a lot to say about the future of the CRC. However, why do we not let the Coloureds speak for themselves? I should like to quote what Dr. Bergins said in his policy speech which has been published in book form. The title is Die Toekoms van die Bruinmense. On page 10 he writes as follows—

Mr. Chairman, why should we try to be clever about the views of other people on the institutions at the disposal of the Coloureds when they themselves regard it otherwise?

I should like to comment on some of the remarks made by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central. He said that the Coloured neither sees himself as separate entity nor as a nation in the making. What does this mean?

It simply means that this is the truth!

It means … [Interjections.] I am very pleased the hon. member is helping me to such an extent. It means that as a White person he has decided that the Coloured’s future is interwoven with that of the White man. However, I should now like to tell the hon. member something. I read here in Deurbraak, a publication well-known to us all …

I do not read that publication!

Here Jakes Gerwel—he is a lecturer at the University of the Western Cape—writes the following significant words. I quote from the November edition. This is what he writes—

[Interjections.] This is the opinion of a Coloured intellectual. [Interjections.] However, I should like to go even further and quote from Die Burger of 9 October 1975. This is the account of a speech Dr. Bergins made on the occasion of the celebration of the Afrikaanse Taalfees. There he spoke the following words; and this is a direct quote from his speech—

He continues—

They are not a nation in the making. [Interjections.]

Does the hon. member imply that they are already a nation? [Interjections.] Dr. Bergins continues—

There can be no misunderstanding about this. The report continues as follows—

However, there are also other sources we can consult, such as Rapport. That side of the House quotes quite frequently from Rapport these days. I quote the report of an inquiry Mr. C. J. Groenewald, Senior Lecturer in Sociology at the University of the Western Cape, undertook with the help of his students and which appeared in Rapport of 14 September 1975. One of their findings read as follows—

He used these specific words used here—

Hon. members will now tell me that this is merely the leader of one sector of the Coloured people who has said this. In Die Burger of 21 October 1975 there is a report of a statement issued by the then Executive after they had had discussions with the hon. Prime Minister. According to that report the old Executive, under the leadership of Mr. Sonny Leon, had the following to say—

In this way I can continue and mention something else Dr. Bergins said in this regard. For example, he said the following—

All I am trying to say …

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member a question?

No, I do not have time. All I want to say is that I think it is humiliating for a political party at this stage to wish to attach itself to the Coloured community which in turn does not want to be attached to that party. Finally I want to quote a final passage to hon. members to show what Mr. Curry, Deputy Leader of the Labour Party, said. It appeared in the Distrikspos of 27 February of this year. I quote—

Therefore, knowing that this is the attitude of a large sector of the Coloured population, I think it is humiliating for a White political party to want to attach itself to the Coloureds on their future path of development. I want to conclude this part of my speech with the remark that we all have to be cautious, politicians as well as academics, in connection with statements on entities, identities, nations and nations in the making. Can we not leave this matter alone and see how it develops? Why must we always try to know better than those people who are themselves concerned in this matter?

My time has almost expired. [Interjections.] I can quite believe that hon. members are glad that I have nearly finished, because they have had a hard time.

I wanted very much to speak about the local authorities which the hon. the Minister envisaged when he announced in April that a commission of inquiry would be appointed. I want to summarize it briefly: To my mind there are two important reasons why the time is ripe for the inquiry to proceed quickly and for the system of full-fledged local authorities to be applied at all places and in all areas where it is possible. There are two reasons for this. Firstly, I think the time is ripe—there is a great measure of goodwill between White and Brown. The necessary co-operation will, therefore, be available so that local authorities can help bring it about. Secondly, the human material of the Coloured population is available to lend status and stability to such an organization. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to convey my sincere thanks to my colleague, the hon. member for False Bay, for a very illuminating speech. One cannot, of course, discuss the major problems of the South African situation in so short a time as this. In fact, it is a pity that the entire population of the whole of Southern Africa does not have the opportunity on such an occasion to listen to the way in which the three White parties state their respective standpoints.

In the course of my speech I want to say a few things about the speech by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central, who had the privilege for a few years of being a member of the Erika Theron Commission. I should also like to say a few things about the hon. member for Durban Central and I must, of course, say a few things about the hon. member for Sea Point. It is very important for everyone who takes an interest in Southern Africa to know that the various parties as they sit here in the House this evening did not come into being yesterday or today. A specific historical background has resulted in these three parties sitting here this evening—each with its respective standpoints and policy on the way in which the Southern African situation is to be handled. These three parties represent three standpoints in the ranks of the Whites in South Africa. It is very important that the non-White of South Africa—and I do not use the term in a negative sense—viz. the various Bantu peoples, the Indian people and the Coloured group—should look at the history of the three parties and view the policy of the three parties in the light of what has gone before.

This evening I should like to say a few things about the opposition parties, two parties which have come into being due to a split in one party. Basically it represents the continuation of the old British imperialism. I have said this before and I shall repeat it a dozen times, because every time we are dealing with a new generation of South Africans which comes to the fore. As I have said, the Opposition has split in two. This evening I want to say to the UP that their approach is a far more responsible one in the ranks of the Opposition in South Africa, because inherent in their federation system or federation policy is the recognition that there is a diversity of people in South Africa. However, what I cannot understand about the UP is that they want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds. On the one hand they recognize the diversity of South Africa, but on the other they deny it, particularly when they wish to address the people in South Africa who are on their left wing, or when they are courting the non-Whites. We must not forget that it has often happened in the past in the history of South African politics—and we can adduce proof of this—that certain Whites, particularly those who are the products of British imperialism, have only used the non-White vote for their own advantage and to a large extent, too, to suppress my people—and this evening I am speaking as an Afrikaner. This is very important. We shall repeat this. We have a lot of time to conduct this discussion in South Africa. It is my right to say—and I want to say it to any non-White group in South Africa—that if one wants to preserve one’s identity, if one wants to see meaning in one’s own principles on which one’s way of life is based, one could perhaps look at the UP, but one could definitely not look at the PRP.

I want to come back to the hon. member for Sea Point. The hon. member for Bryanston who sits in the same benches as the hon. member for Sea Point was my opponent in Rissik in 1966. He openly said to the voters of Rissik, among whom were many students: “I, Horace van Rensburg, stand for White leadership over the whole of southern Africa.” That was ten years ago.

You were a United Party supporter too.

The hon. member is talking nonsense. I say that the hon. member is talking nonsense. That is not true. Does the hon. member not accept my word? Then years ago—and that is a short period in the history of a people and even in the history of an individual—the hon. member for Bryanston, who is now a member of the PRP, was one of our most vehement politicians and one of those who shouted the most. At the time the hon. member spoke about “White leadership of the whole of South Africa”. The hon. member said this and I shall fetch the hon. member’s speech later on. [Interjections.] The hon. member is now saying that the Coloureds must have a qualified franchise—but some of them may vote, whereas others may not vote. What is the hon. member going to say in ten years’ time? No young person of any population group in South Africa can believe in the political policy of the hon. member for Bryanston.

There sits the hon. member for Rondebosch. A year or two ago that hon. member made a speech to a group of people in my constituency, together with Mr. Van Eck of Deurbrook and the hon. member for Bryanston. The hon. member for Rondebosch is supposed to be a clever man, but I want to tell him that there have been far cleverer Afrikaners in the Opposition. One calls to mind men like Gen. Smuts and Jan Hofmeyr who were far more intelligent than many of the hon. members who are supposed to be Afrikaners. One man stood up and asked the hon. member to explain the policy of the PRP to him. He asked the hon. member whether, according to the policy of the PRP, the majority would be Black people, Coloured people or White people. The hon. member for Rondebosch then lived up to the name of his constituency by beating around the bush. A few years ago the hon. member for Rondebosch was appointed chairman of a commission which had to work out a policy for the PRP. However, this evening I want to tell the hon. member and anyone else listening to me that the PRP is a party without a policy. All that party wants is for all the people of South Africa to come together to work out a policy. The Whites of South Africa do not want the PRP and the people of southern Africa must take cognizance of that.

It is a long time since you spoke as much nonsense as you are speaking this evening.

The people of southern Africa must know how the White voters view the PRP. The PRP’s role in the politics of South Africa is that of a group of people who want to launch a movement to bring about change in South Africa for the sake of change.

This evening the hon. member for Sea Point referred very disparagingly to the University of the Western Cape. However, I know, too, in what disparaging terms universities of my population group are spoken of, too. I can remember how, in the history of my people, there has been disparagement of my language, my identity, my culture and my schools. All my life I have studied at a university which only has one language. Is there anything wrong with the universities throughout the world at which one studies in one’s own homogeneous group? Does the hon. member want to tell me that all the people who have studied at the University of Pretoria are worth nothing?

I want to tell the people of South Africa that the PRP has a modus operandi. We are still going to analyse it. The starting point of the party’s modus operandi is that other people are belittled; that other peoples’ institutions are belittled. From the heights of wealth and learnedness, that which has started from small beginnings is destroyed. I want to point out to hon. members that a few years ago, in accordance with the standpoint of the NP, we said that education must take place within the national context. We are not ashamed of this. The whole world has been attacking us for more than 20 years about our specific standpoint. However, I want to say to the hon. member for Sea Point that whereas he cannot look a true Afrikaner in the eye, I shall look the rest of the world in the eye because in my struggle for my own survival I do not want to deprive anyone of anything. I shall concede this evening that in the development of its policy the NP does not have answers to all the problems. What leader in the world today, whether he lives in England, Germany or Russia, can go to his people and say that he has the solution to all the problems in his country? Our point of departure in South Africa is that the history of South Africa has caused us to be a diversity of peoples and compels us to acknowledge and recognize this diversity. We are not saying that the people should have a qualified franchise. The hon. Deputy Minister of Bantu Affairs put a question to the hon. member for Sea Point at the beginning of the year and the hon. member never replied to his question. The question was: How many Coloureds and how many Afrikaners would vote in terms of your party’s approach? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is not my intention to become involved in the personal quarrel which the hon. member for Rissik seems to have with the Progressives. I just wish to draw his attention and the attention of his colleagues to a little booklet which was published as a fact paper in March 1962. It is entitled A future for the Coloured people. The first page is headed “A unique solution” and I quote—

The pamphlet then states—

It is now 14 years after that and I want to say to the hon. gentlemen opposite, in the words of Winston Churchill, if they believe that, they will believe anything. [Interjections.] It is not the intention in this debate to go into great detail in regard to the Theron Commission, but one thing that has emerged from the commission as a cardinal feature, is that this hon. Minister and his department could be likened to the needle of a compass. The needle of a compass always points north and this symbolizes the fact that the hon. the Minister must always point in one direction. He must be preoccupied with and his main purpose must be directed to the Coloured people of South Africa. He represents them. That should be his main purpose. When one considers the various points of the compass, one can liken them to the various State departments on which the welfare of the Coloureds themselves depends. I believe that the Theron report has highlighted beyond any doubt that every point of the compass infringes upon the interests and the welfare of the Coloureds of South Africa. The Coloureds cannot be divorced, removed or separated from the overall economy and welfare of the Republic of South Africa.

The estimates this year reveal something which I consider is a matter for regret. I refer to an article in the Financial Mail of 2 April 1976, headed “Who is being pinched hardest?” There follows a review of the amounts to be spent in this budget and the increase or decrease in relation to the previous year. What do we find? We find that the percentage increase in expenditure on the vote for Coloured, Rehoboth and Nama Relations is 10,1%, while in the case of Indian Affairs the increase is 12,5% and in the case of Bantu Administration and Development the increase is 15,5%. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that the Coloureds’ needs are just as great as those of the other races and that they cannot get by on less. My purpose is to raise with the hon. the Minister, because I believe that he can play a key role in these matters, the position of certain conditions and facilities, or lack of facilities, which pertains in the Austerville/Wentworth complex in the Durban area. This area houses the largest concentration of Coloureds in the whole of Natal. The population growth is indicated by the fact that in 1970 the population was estimated at 10 000 in this particular complex. In 1976 it is estimated at 17 000, and when it is fully developed it is estimated that there will be 24 000 Coloureds in this complex.

I should like firstly to refer to the question of school enrolments. We find that in 1970 school enrolments—and I include here both primary and secondary—amounted to approximately 4 500 scholars. Five years later, at the end of 1975, this number had grown to over 7 000, which indicates a 57% increase. In a reply given to me yesterday by the hon. the Minister there is revealed an appalling lack of facilities for these scholars.

The facilities in use in this complex are as follows: swimming bath, nil; tennis courts, nil; soccer fields, two; rugby fields, nil; cricket pitches, nil; hockey fields, nil; tarmac areas for tennisette and netball, three. That was in 1970. In 1975 we find the following: swimming baths, nil; soccer fields, nil; tennis courts, nil; soccer fields have increased by one to three; rugby fields, nil; cricket pitches, nil; hockey fields, nil; tarmac areas have increased from three to seven. That deals with the past and the present, but what of the future? The future holds little consolation for the scholars in secondary schools at the present time because by the time they have left school the future facilities will still not have been provided.

What was it like under your Government?

It was an army camp under our Government and the Royal Navy was stationed there. New facilities which are due to be provided include five additional rugby/soccer fields. One will be completed in 1977, two in 1978, one in 1979 and one at a date not yet fixed. One encouraging feature is that by 1978 the number of pupils, which will have grown considerably, will be provided with one athletic track.

That is progress!

Also, ten additional tarmac areas to provide facilities for tennisette and netball will be provided between 1978 and a date not yet fixed. There is no provision for school swimming baths, tennis courts or cricket pitches. What we have now in this area is high density housing. We are not complaining about that, but about the minimal recreational facilities which are available to ease the social problems which arise. The question is: What can these 7 000 students do? They cannot play sport at school. What do they do when they are out of school? All they can do is loiter and play in the streets. I wonder what they think when they look across the ridge and across the valley to the White area and see the beautifully appointed sport fields there and when they travel into town and on the other side of the national road they see a very well appointed, well used and well kept Indian sportsfield at the nearest Indian school adjacent to the Coloured schools and also at Wentworth.

Now you are against the Indians. Yesterday you were for them.

Why don’t you read your comic book?

I want to come back briefly to Sparks Estate in the few moments which I have at my disposal. I want to express my appreciation to the Commissioner for Coloured Affairs for the prompt and sympathetic action he took when I pointed out a hardship or misunderstanding which had arisen in a school in Sparks Estate. The hon. the Minister knows that the expropriation of land which has taken place in Sparks Estate is with a view to the provision of high density housing. I realize and appreciate the conditions which have motivated the Department of Community Development in providing this high density housing. What I want to ask the hon. the Minister is whether he can give us some assurance that he has planned and will provide adequate primary and secondary schools. I notice under the Public Works expenditure for this year that an amount of R450 000 has been set aside for Spearman Road Primary School, but that only R50, a token amount, is set aside for expenditure this year.

I ask the hon. the Minister whether he can assure the people in Sparks Estate that there will be adequate schooling provided when the flats and high-density housing are occupied by the people who will be placed in that area. I want to draw his attention to the report of the education council for Coloured persons. The council mentioned three points. They are concerned about the erection, in good time, of school buildings, they are concerned about the shortage of funds for the erection of facilities and they are also concerned about the acquisition of sites for school buildings. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Berea must excuse me if I do not react to his speech. He put a number of questions to the hon. the Minister and I think the hon. the Minister will furnish him with the necessary replies. I now want to devote attention to an aspect which intimately affects the life of the Coloured, and this is the involvement of the Coloured community in the labour set-up of the South African economy. The economic stability and growth which the Republic has experienced over the past number of years is largely ascribable to an orderly, stable, economically active population. In the process of economic growth and stability the White, Black and Brown labourers have made a positive contribution towards putting the Republic’s economy where it is today. In fact, all indications are that the Coloured community continues to be involved to an increasing extent in all sectors of the country’s economy, with the direct advantage that the socioeconomic position of the Coloured is improving and his general standard of living is increasing systematically. The involvement of the Coloured community in the country’s economy has changed drastically over the past decade. More and more Coloured labour is entering the labour market in the form skilled, semi-skilled and clerical workers.

According to the latest available data, 702 000 Coloureds are economically active. When we analyse this economically active labour, we see that two clear and identifiable work groups are developing in the Coloured labour market. On the one hand there is a group of unskilled manual labourers, but on the other—and I want to stress this—there is a strong middle class of clerical and professional people and artisans. I just want to quote a few figures to support the statement that this is a growing middle-class

Let us take the office workers. Over the past decade there has been an increase of 53 000 workers in this specific category. The total labour force in this category is at present 84 000 workers. It is significant that these 84 000 office workers are about a third of the total number of Whites in this category.

Let us take a look at the artisans, too. Over the same period their numbers have increased by 43 000, with the result that at present there is a total of 78 000 qualified artisans. This is an increase of 35 000 artisans over a period of ten years. If we take the production and construction industry, the workers employed chiefly in the factories have increased by 45 000. Clearly, therefore, a pattern of labour and socio-economic polarization is to be detected within the coloured community. This developing pattern indicates that Coloured labour revolves for the most part around two poles: On the one hand there is the unskilled labourer and on the other the steadily growing middle class which has undergone basic socioeconomic changes.

In this changing socio-economic situation one can refer to various central or core professions. For example there are the doctors and the teachers. This evening I want to dwell on the Coloured entrepreneur and the Coloured businessman. As far as the Coloured businessman is concerned, percentage wise few Coloureds fall into the entrepreneuring class. This is not so much the effect of the policy of this side of the House. It is chiefly ascribable to the socio-economic situation in which the Coloured finds himself. The policy of this side of the House and the labour policy in particular, is specifically geared to encouraging the Coloured businessman and the establishment of Coloured enterprises and expanding those enterprises which already exist in a systematic and dynamic way. In terms of the policy of the NP the Coloured is not destined to be involved in, and remain in, a limited number of labour categories only. Opportunities must be created and the Coloured entrepreneur and Coloured businessman must be furnished with advice to enable them to improve their positions and participate actively in the benefits of a free capitalist system. It is only when the Coloured also shares the material benefits of the system that he will also be motivated to defend the system. I want to ask the hon. the Minister that a dynamic campaign be launched to establish and promote Coloured entrepreneurship among the Coloured population. The establishment of Coloured business facilities by Coloureds for Coloureds is a matter of the highest priority.

Coloured entrepreneurship—if I may dwell on this for a moment—stands or falls on two issues. The first is the availability of premises and the second is the channelling of Coloured purchasing power and consumption expenditure back to the Coloured areas. There are bottlenecks with regard to the creation of opportunities and business facilities. The first is the availability of suitable business premises and also a lack of capital. The planning of business areas in existing Coloured areas leaves much to be desired. In the majority of Coloured areas there is no dynamic business centre and I feel that in the planning and replanning of Coloured areas, attention must be devoted to the establishment of a dynamic business centre where the Coloured businessman can actively carry on his affairs. I am not merely advocating a replanning of the central business area in the Coloured areas, but also the establishment of growth points in Coloured areas. Just as there are certain concessions with regard to border industries in terms of the decentralization policy, we must also move in the direction of certain concessions and encourage the establishment of Coloured businesses within the Coloured areas.

I want to conclude with the thought that the channelling of Coloured purchasing power back to Coloured areas must be afforded top priority. According to what I have read in the newspapers there have been cases recently of this being totally discouraged. These are the so-called applications for hypermarkets to attract much of the purchasing power in the Peninsula to a central area. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, we have all listened to the remarks of the hon. member for Bellville with great interest. I want to say at once that in my opinion we all agree with him whole-heartedly. In fact, the matters he touched on will probably be further discussed tomorrow, since the Theron Report does in fact deal with the specific aspects he touched on here as well.

Looking at the debate which has been conducted here, it is very clear that concerns four basic issues. There is the problem that it is difficult to do justice to all four of those aspects within the limits of a debate of this nature, particularly taking the time into account. The first point is the issue of the socio-economic position of the Coloured group. In the time at my disposal I want to try to identify the points of difference with regard to this matter, both within and outside this House. In other words, I want to try to indicate where we are basically in agreement and where we differ.

I want to say at once that it is very clear that every member of this House at least maintains in all seriousness and honesty that in the socio-economic upliftment of the Coloureds we have a matter about which we are all in agreement. I know of no member of this House who, in this evening’s debate or at any other time, has in any way expressed negative opinions about the necessity for all possible steps to be taken to assist our Coloured population along the road to socio-economic development. I want to express my appreciation for the positive note that has been sounded on our side. I refer to the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central who began with this and the members for Umbilo, Umlazi, Durban Central and Berea. I also want to convey my appreciation for the positive suggestions made by the hon. members for Namaqualand, Oudtshoorn, Prieska and Bellville. These were positive suggestions all of which will, I hope, be given serious consideration by the Government.

The issue, of course, is the method and the tempo of that upliftment. Where we on this side of the House differ from that side is that we honestly say and believe that that tempo is totally unsatisfactory. This has been indicated here with regard to parity in salaries and with regard to so many other things in regard to which we ought to move much faster than we have moved up to now. The argument is about this and not about the principle. On this point, in regard to which there is common ground for all of us, there ought not be differences making it necessary for us to level accusations at each other in this House about the lack of necessary progress. These are accusations which sometimes create the impression that it is not just a matter of the method and tempo, but that there are objections in principle, too, on the part of certain people with regard to our elimination of all forms of discrimination in this sphere. All I want to say about this—unfortunately time does not allow me to elaborate on it in detail—is that the example given here, viz. that of the Afrikaner who helped himself, does not apply in any way when reference is made to this socio-economic development of the Coloured. This is so for the simple reason—among other things; it is not the only one—that the Afrikaner had political power; something he still has. The Afrikaner was in a position to negotiate in political sphere. The Coloured is not in that same position. Hon. members must please not carry on advancing the argument that the Coloured can achieve these things because the Afrikaner succeeded in doing so. As long as the Coloured has no ability to negotiate in the political sphere, he cannot compel or negotiate equality and parity for himself at the socioeconomic level.

The second aspect which was at issue here and concerning which I want to repeat that as far as I am concerned, there is no dispute worthy of mention among hon. members of this House, is the necessity to bring about sound personal relations. In common with the hon. member for Worcester I want to associate myself with the expressions of appreciation for the work of the relations committees which have been called into being. I want to join him and others in stressing the necessity for the cultivation of good personal relations and of a sound attitude. I am grateful for the note that has been sounded in this hon. House this evening, which indicated that this ought to be one of our primary tasks. Without that we cannot hope to achieve good relations in South Africa at any stage.

This brings me to the two other aspects which have been broached here and which we cannot, unfortunately, take any further this evening. It is to be hoped that we shall be able to devote attention to them tomorrow. In the first place the issue is really the political dispensation, in other words the political dispensation we are living in and to which the Coloureds are subjected, and then, too, it is an issue of the ideology or the philosophy. It is very clear that as far as the place of the Coloured within our political framework is concerned, there is a basic difference in thinking; or at any rate that is how it seems to me. When I refer to a difference in thinking, I mean a difference in the thinking of hon. members on this side of the House and hon. members on the other side.

Of course!

Yes, of course. However it is very clear that politically, the Coloured does not want to be treated differently to any ordinary South African and that he will never be satisfied with any political rights inferior to those enjoyed by White South Africans.

You are putting words in their mouths!

I am not saying this; the Coloureds are saying it.

But there you said it again! [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, I am only saying that we do not expect the Coloured to be satisfied with political rights which compare unfavourably in any way with those possessed by the Whites.

They do not want to believe it! [Interjections.]

Order!

Mr. Chairman …

Order! I want to point out to the hon. member that the hon. the Minister indicated that that matter would be fully discussed tomorrow.

Mr. Chairman, … [Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, I respect your guidance, but the hon. member for False Bay, the hon. member for Rissik, the hon. member for Piketberg and others have devoted much of their speeches to this. I am now reacting to those speeches. [Interjections.] I should like to remind my hon. friends opposite of something. When the debate about the Transkei was conducted here it was said time and again that what the NP’s policy amounted to was self-determination and freedom for all the people in South Africa. I now challenge them. I challenge the hon. member for Rissik and the hon. member for Piketberg to tell us what kind of self-determination and freedom are at issue here. After all, it is certainly not freedom with limitations. What kind of self-determination and freedom is this which they want to grant the Coloureds in the present set-up, if they reject the idea of a homeland? After all, the Government has stated very clearly that there is no question of a homeland for the Coloureds. [Interjections.] I want to ask the hon. members of the NP in all seriousness—and it is pointless for the hon. member for Rissik to keep harping on certain weaknesses in this or that policy—please to tell us … [Interjections.]

You are now scoring petty party-political points!

No, no, I am not scoring petty party-political points.

What else is it then?

Just tell us how the concepts of freedom and self-determination for the Coloured can be applied in this situation? [Interjections.] What I am trying to do here is to indicate what the debate is really about. The fourth aspect concerns the ideology and the philosophy. In this connection the issue is more specifically the question: What is identity? It is to be hoped that we shall revert to this tomorrow, because the Theron Commission has furnished a conclusive answer to this question as well. Could my hon. friends on the other side of the House not define for us what they mean by “identity”? They must also tell me whose identity is being threatened in this country. They must also indicate to me how the abolition of the Mixed Marriages Act and the Immorality Act and the abolition of discrimination would threaten the White or Afrikaner identity. Hon. members must please explain this to me. There is nothing to threaten a people’s identity if it wishes to preserve its identity. We shall come back to this tomorrow. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Edenvale is an academic and one must deal with the hon. member’s arguments carefully. The hon. member wants to know what identity is. All I can tell him is that up to the present, the Coloureds in South Africa have to a large extent oriented their identity towards, and associated with, that of the Afrikaner; not with the “hanskakie”, but with the Afrikaner.

Is that his identity?

No, identity means being yourself and giving evidence of who you are. The Coloureds do in fact do this, because they are not ashamed of it. However there are many people today in the ranks of those parties who do not want to be the Afrikaners they are. There are many people today who imitate our identity. Recently the hon. member for Albany stood up here in the House and, like a child who discovers his name for the first time, said: “I am an Afrikaner.” It is the first time I have heard anything of the kind from that side of the House and the hon. member was quite correct. Hon. members on the other side of the House are slowly but surely beginning to ape the identity of the Afrikaner.

I am talking about our Coloureds this evening and I am speaking on behalf of the Transvaal. [Interjections.] Over the past few years our Coloureds in the Transvaal have devoted a great deal of attention to their housing in particular. As hon. member know, our Coloureds in the Transvaal are among the best housed Coloureds in South Africa. We are building about 2 500 houses per annum for a small population and we are not going to let this fall behind, because we want to have more and better housing for those people.

Our Coloured schools and community can maintain themselves, but there are 150 deaf children who are not yet properly looked after. As yet there is no place where these deaf children can be taken in and properly provided for. I now appeal to the hon. the Minister to see to it that attention is given to these children without delay.

Another troublesome matter is the proclamation of townships, particularly in the Coloured area. The city council and the Government can build on unproclaimed land, but the Coloureds who own their own homes cannot build on that land before they have title deeds. These Coloureds must be given the opportunity, and proclamation of towns must be expedited.

Another matter of great importance to me is that although people like Mr. Botes, Mrs. Baard, Pastor Jacobs and others have devoted a great deal of time over the years to upliftment work among our Coloureds, nevertheless there is a weak spot like Tamatievlei near Klipriviersoog. I wish to make the earnest request that these people be looked after and that a little more in the way of community services be put at their disposal.

Our Coloureds are not agitators. The Coloureds in the Transvaal have proved that they want to develop themselves. This can only happen if people who want to serve South Africa come forward. I greatly appreciate this. In this connection I have in mind in particular the businessmen, for example, Mr. Reid, Mr. Botha and others who try to involve our young Coloureds increasingly in the business world. This is not easy, because the Coloured people have not yet built up a lot of capital with which to begin business enterprises. However we believe that with the necessary cohesion, and co-operation by the Department of Coloured Affairs, this can be developed further. At Bosmond we have an example of a strong community that has uplifted itself so that everyone, even we as Whites, can look up to them. The communities at Eldorado Park and in other areas are certainly developing into model residential areas. None of the problems to be found in certain other communities are experienced there. We are very grateful for this.

I should now like to come back to the hon. member for Sea Point. This evening the hon. member kicked up a tremendous fuss. He kicked up a fuss and expressed opinions on budgets and other matters. Among other things he stated what the budget should have been like. Show me one Coloured serving on the board of directors of Anglo American. How many Coloureds are there in the Transvaal today? Show me one of the institutions of members of the PRP which employs Coloureds. They do not employ Coloureds.

Or where they allow access to their swimming baths.

Yes, the hon. member is correct. Do they allow Coloureds in the Sea Point swimming bath? These people tend to pay lip-service only. They have a different story for every gallery. The hon. member for Sea Point must bear one thing in mind. The hon. member for Yeoville is not present today. Does the hon. member know why? Because he has become the only leader now that the hon. member for Houghton is in America. Statements are made in the House which are only inflammatory and not constructive.

Order!

Must I come back to Coloured Affairs? [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member may not say that inflammatory statements are made in this House.

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw that statement. The first thing we must do is to uplift the Coloured from the time he is young. The circumstances of the Coloureds must be viewed in their entirety. No one can be opposed to this. One cannot begin to build a house by putting the roof on first. One must start with the foundations. It is the Coloured child in particular that we must help. Our community must be geared to performing the task of upliftment and to creating opportunities for the Coloured child. It is pointless to give political rights only to these people. One does not vote with one’s stomach. Nor does one hear with one’s stomach. We must educate. The learning of the Coloured child must enable him to create a new life for himself.

Tell that to the Whites.

The hon. member for Pinelands is always interjecting. He is an hon. member who is so verkramp that a Bantu may not even walk through Pinelands. Nevertheless the hon. member wants to put words in the mouths of the Bantu in this hon. House. It is a game played with an eye on the gallery and in this House one has to learn that one can bluff nobody. Everyone is judged in the hearts of the people and the people know that the Coloured of South Africa identifies himself with the Afrikaner and with no one else.

Mr. Chairman, we have come to the end of the debate, and I want to thank hon. members on both sides of the House for the calm manner in which they conducted the debate. I think that it redounds to the credit of the House of Assembly that a discussion on Coloured Affairs could, in the times in which we are living, take place in such a level-headed and calm manner. There were a few hon. members who could not keep their hands to themselves, and I am sorry to say that the hon. member for Edenvale was one of them. I expected better of him. Perhaps he was too eager to get to tomorrow’s debate.

He was simply replying to speeches from the opposite side.

No, the hon. member was not simply replying to other speakers. There were a few members who wanted to make a political issue out of the matter, but generally speaking it redounds to the credit of this House that the discussion could take place on such a high level.

I want to begin with the speech made by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central. He quoted a few of my colleagues—I do not know why he made such a wide detour—and then expressed the hope that I would endorse what they had said. I can assure the hon. member that I do in fact endorse what they said. I also endorse what the hon. member for Johannesburg West quoted, and what my predecessor, the present hon. Minister of Health, said. It is the task of any responsible person in this country to try not to make political gain from the problem-situations in which other population groups find themselves. We must act in a responsible manner in regard to such matters. In addition we must adopt a compassionate attitude to the problems affecting other population groups. The hon. member said that the Coloureds do not see themselves as a separate cultural group. The hon. member used the concept of “cultural group”, and a few hon. members reacted to that. I do not want to jump the gun, as the hon. member for Edenvale did, and deal with that matter at this early stage, because I think we will be able to discuss it to better effect tomorrow.

The hon. member was a member of a commission which brought out an important report, a commission which also looked into this kind of situation. It also appeared that the hon. member was uncertain whether the amount appearing under subhead J of the Estimates and which is earmarked for the CRC, is sufficient, and might not be too much. The hon. member also asked how the Estimates are compiled. The answer is that the Estimates are compiled by the Administration of Coloured Affairs, for the Administration has experience of the costs of certain items. The hon. member, as well as other hon. members who discussed this matter, will understand that the item “education” is the principal service which the CRC renders. The Administration has information at its disposal on the number of teachers involved, as well as on the services that have to be rendered, and Estimates are drawn up on that basis, since expenditure increases annually on a more or less comparable basis. It is therefore possible to budget for each item, and for that reason we have no doubt about the appropriation which is being made here. However, we find ourselves in a year in which the expenditure of each department, including the Administration of Coloured Affairs, has been pared to the bone owing to circumstances which are frequently debated. Therefore I do not think that I need elaborate on this any further. The hon. member asked me what formula exists for the elimination of the disparity in salaries between Coloured teachers and officials and the Whites. I want to refer the hon. member to a Cabinet decision which was taken a few years ago, viz. that with every time salaries are raised, provision will be made for narrowing the gap. This brings me to the hon. member sitting behind him, the hon. member for Durban Central.

His was the central point.

I do not think the point was as central as the hon. member is trying to imply. The hon. member also raised the question of the announcement, and levelled an accusation at me.

I said I heard it over the radio.

I also listened to the radio. The hon. member alleged that we are playing games with salary parity. Those are the words the hon. member used, and I think it is a pity the hon. member did so. We must have the co-operation of the Coloured teaching profession and of the Coloured community, but now an hon. member of the Opposition rises to his feet here and says that we are playing games with salary parity. The person whose speech was quoted over the radio is sitting in the officials’ benches behind me, the Director of Education. He spoke with authority when he said that the increase on 1 July in respect of Coloured teachers would be 15%. This is more than the 10% increase which the White teachers will receive.

What about the 5% which the Whites are going to receive in January?

I have just told the hon. member sitting in front of him, the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central, what formula was accepted for narrowing the wage gap. The hon. member for Durban Central was speculating when he alleged that the Coloureds have been cheated again because a further increase of 10% is going to be granted to the Whites in January. Surely the hon. member knows what the position is. So why conjure up such spectres? Why, then, level the accusation that we are playing games with salary parity? Surely progressive, step-by-step, progress is being made in this direction at every opportunity.

As regards the 5% in January, with which the hon. member is now reproaching us, the hon. the Prime Minister himself said in this House that there would be a further increase of 5% for officials and others in January if the economic conditions in the country did not deteriorate. He therefore made it conditional. I do not want to say that this will not happen. But why does the hon. member speculate in anticipation here that the narrowing of the wage gap will not be taken any further? What is more: In the same announcement the hon. the Prime Minister also said that a proper study would be made, between now and next year, of the salary and price structure of the entire teaching profession, in which Coloured and Indian education is included. Arising from that, further improved post and salary structures may be expected, and also that qualified teachers are going to benefit even more by it by placing the profession on a high level.

May I ask a question?

Let me first finish what I am saying. Knowing that it is being listened to, the hon. member alleged that games were being played with salary parity. I now want to level a counter-accusation at the hon. member. If he reproaches me or officials of my department for playing games with this matter, then I level the reproach at him that he was playing to the gallery. The hon. member may now put his question.

If we forget about the 5%, is it not true that on the M+4 maximum notch for men the promotion scale is being reduced from R2 100 to R2 064 as a result of the gap? Is that not playing games? Then it is only a reduction of R36.

I think the hon. member should do his homework. He should read this morning’s Burger in which there is a detailed exposition of what was said by the Director of Education.

The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central told me that as a result of the impasse, as he called it, which has been reached with regard to the CRC, the Minister is now in charge of the CRC. He said, inter alia, that I am also the Minister of Justice now. How does the hon. member arrive at that? How does the hon. member explain those powers which I am alleged to have? Does the hon. member not think he is going a little too far and is stirring up matters which are not correct? After all, the CRC is carrying on with its functions. It meets early in September and carries on with the functions which it has to carry out. Why is the hon. member now accusing me of having allegedly assumed all powers, of even being the Minister of Justice, and all the other things the hon. member mentioned? Does the hon. member think he was being fair? Does he not think he went a little too far and tried to give people the wrong impression? I am putting this question specifically to the hon. member in the light of the policy of his own party. I read here, under the heading “Parliament”, that—

†The hon. member will admit that it is the intention of his party to create two legislative assemblies for the Coloured population. In other words, where we have the CRC today, it is the intention of his party, should they ever come to power, to have two councils for the Coloured people. Am I correct in this respect?

One federal assembly and one legislative assembly for the Coloured population.

Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that the hon. member does not know the policy of his party at all. I wish to quote further—

Now my question to the hon. member is: If he blames me today for what has happened in Coloured politics recently, and says that I am now master of the CRC, also the Minister of Justice of the CRC, what do the words I have quoted from his policy mean if they are going to encounter problems at one of their two envisaged legislative assemblies for the Coloured people? In other words, it is quite obvious that, when one deals with a developing population group, one can expect difficulties to be encountered, as we are having at the present time. These problems must then be handled statesmanlike. One cannot handle them by making promises and then, if one is not in power, blaming the other side that they are not operating in a proper manner.

*The hon. member referred to a Pretoria committee on tax contributions by the Coloureds. I have already referred to this before. It is not a committee; it is a report of the Bureau for Economy and Politics and Analysis, a bureau attached to the University of Pretoria. Last year the bureau was commissioned by the department to make a specific study of this subject. This report is actually for departmental use, for the Administration of Coloured Affairs. That is why it was not possible to table it. There are not many copies of the report available, but the hon. member is welcome to come and have a look at the report at any time.

The study covered the year 1972-’73 and indicates that the taxation contributions of the Coloured population group in South Africa in that year were R50 million. Of that amount the Central Government received R44,3 million, the provincial administration approximately R2,4 million, and local authorities, R3,4 million. The hon. member can therefore see that although the Central Government received only R44,3 million, it made R174 million available to the CRC alone. However, that is not all. The total estimates for my department and the Administration of Coloured Affairs still do not represent everything which is being spent on the Coloured population. That hon. member will realize that other departments are spending millions of rands on behalf of the Coloured population. I am referring only to the Department of Health, the Department of Community Development and numerous other departments as well. Then, too, there are the salaries which are being paid to Coloured officials, and these amount to millions of rands. Unfortunately I do not have this figure, but I have furnished the hon. members with the figures calculated by the bureau.

For what purpose are those calculations going to be used, or was the study made merely for the sake of interest?

No, the study was not merely made for the sake of interest. The study goes much further than that. It also studied the consumer spending of the Coloureds. It is a comprehensive study which was carried out for the convenience of the Administration of Coloured Affairs, with a view to the further development for the Coloureds. The study wanted to determine what sources of income the Coloureds had at their disposal, and what funds the State should consequently channellize to the Coloureds. It was therefore a study of the Coloureds own contribution, but also a study of their own needs. I have referred to this on a previous occasion.

The hon. member asked me to what boards and councils the Coloureds have already been appointed in accordance with the announcement made by the hon. the Prime Minister last year. Unfortunately I cannot reply to that question this evening, because the appointments are not made by my department, but by various departments. However, I can assure the hon. member that every member of the Cabinet has been commissioned to notify the boards and councils functioning under each member’s department if there is a need for the appointment of Coloured representatives. There are several boards and councils to which Coloured persons have already been appointed. For example, such appointments have already been made on the Economic Advisory Council of the hon. the Prime Minister. I also know that some of the appointments are being made to the Group Areas Board, which falls under my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Planning, as well as to the Wage Board. However, I do not have all this information available. The question was initially put to the hon. the Prime Minister. He is actually the person who co-ordinates these matters and will, on a subsequent occasion, probably be able to furnish the necessary information.

The hon. member also mentioned farm buildings and Railway buildings which are unoccupied and could perhaps be used for teaching purposes. I think the hon. member has a very good point there. However, I think it is a matter which has to be advanced by the Executive of the CRC. As it happens I dealt with a similar kind of request in the interior over the long weekend—precisely in respect of a Railway building. I think the hon. member raised a very deserving case here.

The hon. member for Piketberg discussed education, and pointed out that only a small percentage of Coloured teachers have degrees or diplomas. He made a plea for special attention to be devoted to this matter. I am in agreement with him on that score, because I believe that education is the key to the progress of the Coloureds. The more trained teachers we are able to find, therefore, the better. It would be in their own interests, and also in the interests of education in general. It would mean better prospects for them, and would also advance education as such. I do want to tell the hon. member for Piketberg that certain schemes have been put into operation by the Administration precisely in order to enable the present teachers to obtain better qualifications. All approved students receiving teacher training at a university, a College for Advanced Technical Education, or a training college or school, receive a study bursary for the full period of their training. Study bursaries are also granted to married women to obtain teachers’ qualifications or to improve their qualifications. Study leave at full salary is granted to serving teachers to enable them to return to a university or college to study further and improve their qualifications. Study bursaries are even granted to serving teachers to undertake part-time study by means of correspondence courses or by attending part-time classes. Study courses have been extended, and standards of training raised in order to classify teachers in a higher category after completion of their studies, so that they can earn higher salaries. In 1975 two additional training colleges were opened, one in Bellville and one in Port Elizabeth. In Kimberley a larger college was built to replace the old building. I should like to mention this to indicate how the Administration is going out of its way to create opportunities for teachers to better their qualifications, which is of course of great importance.

The hon. member for Rondebosch asked me a question. At that stage, however, there was a great deal of talking, and I could not hear very well. Did it deal with the annual report of the department or of the Administration?

The schedule.

In other words, the Administration one. The hon. member wanted to know why it extends to the end of March 1975. The position is of course that the report first has to be submitted to the CRC before it can be tabled here. Consequently, I experienced the same problem the hon. member experienced. I had to ask for it through my department in order to obtain new information. In this way I have certain documents with me, but I shall not bore the hon. member with them.

The hon. member said that the system of consulting committees, management committees and the local affairs committees in Natal were not working effectively because there was insufficient consultation. The hon. member also referred to other problems in this regard. I do not think that those problems are relative at this juncture. I am referring to the problem of the division of income and the formula in that regard, and the lack of decision-making experience. If there is a lack experience, people simply have to acquire the necessary experience. It is true that I regularly receive complaints about the lack of liaison between local authorities and administration committees. Mr. Chairman, it would astonish you to hear which local authorities the complaints refer to. The complaints are in connection with the so-called liberal local authorities, and not the local authorities of which this side of the House is in control. I have already expressed my serious concern in this regard in the past. It has appeared in the Press that Mr. Curry, a former member of the Executive, and a delegation of his party, held talks with me a few months ago—it so happened that he saw me again yesterday—and in the course of this conversation great prominence was given to this matter of a lack of liaison. This was not in connection with a specific local authority but in general. In the course of the interview I said that I felt so strongly about this deficiency that if local authorities were hesitant in this regard, I felt that the Administration of Coloured Affairs ought to appoint an expert, a person conscious of the value of liaison, a person with sound experience, to promote the aspect of liaison on a personal level. Such a person should ensure that circulars sent out by persons or bodies to the city councils also reach the management committees so that they can take cognizance of them. They must be aware of one another and should not be kept in the dark.

In other words, I shall go out of my way to promote liaison. I am a person who believes in communication. It worries me if the communication is not what it should be. The hon. member also said that it was time-consuming to consult. I do not think that it is time-consuming. In the times in which we are living, it has become essential to consult. If there is an instruction to the effect that consultation should take place, people should not hide behind the excuse that they do not have time to do so. If a person involves himself in local government, whether it is in a management committee or in a municipality, he must find time for consultation. Therefore I do not think it is a valid argument which the hon. member advanced.

Mr. Chairman, the question I actually put in my speech was what authority these management committees had, and how binding their recommendations were on, say, a municipality for example.

I struggled with this problem yesterday. A representative of the Cape municipality, who is a member of that hon. member’s party, came to see me and also had to endure the reproaches levelled on the part of these Coloureds. The point is of course that every local authority can decide on the recommendation. They need not follow the advice. However, I say that it is wrong if an authority does not pay any heed to valid arguments which are advanced. If the hon. member now tells me that it is a deficiency in the system, I want to tell him that surely this is a practice run. Surely it has been the intention all these years that local authorities should grow from consulting committees via management committees to eventual autonomous local authorities.

They have been practising for 13 years.

No, the hon. member is wrong. They have not been practising for 13 years. The first fully elected management committees are only now being established because the Executive of Mr. Leon himself approached my predecessor at the end of last year and requested that they should be re-elected. They are only being established now. How can the hon. member say that they have been practising for 13 years?

I mean the consultation.

If the hon. member levels the reproach at me that they have been practising for 13 years, I want to ask him whether he speaks to the municipalities which share his views. Does he tell them that they should do their duty in regard to consultation and the training of Coloured staff? In regard to this matter I shall go out of my way to contact local authorities myself. In fact I have already done so. If this system, which I call a practice process, is not perfect, we shall seek a better one.

That is what I am asking for.

Surely we are now proceeding to a better system. That is why I announced a month or two ago that I was going to appoint an expert committee of inquiry in terms of the Group Areas Act of 1966, a technical committee, to institute an investigation into viable areas with a view to the establishment of areas of their own for the Coloured people. I want to tell hon. members that this committee would already have been appointed if it had not been for the practical circumstances of those who are to serve on the committee. On 20 July the names of the members of the committee will be published, and the committee will be put into operation. If there is any concern on the part of the hon. member as to whether Coloureds will serve on the committee, I can tell him that prominent Coloureds will in fact serve on the committee. They will serve together with knowledgeable Whites. These will be people who are professionally equipped for the task.

I come now to the hon. member for Prieska, who discussed labour and the relations between employers and employees. He referred to the obligation which rests on the employer to maintain sound relations with his employees. I am very pleased the hon. member raised this matter. Two years ago he and I conveyed this message from one place to another in his constituency. I visited major employers in his constituency. I visited the mines, farmers as well as other organizations. Today our employers are prepared to listen to the message in regard to sound relations and consultation between employer and employee.

The hon. member for Umbilo discussed welfare services. It is as the hon. member said. I am attuned to this kind of thing owing to my previous responsibilities in the Department of Social Welfare. I agree with the hon. member. It is a sphere in which considerable progress still has to be made. Initiative will also have to be displayed. However, I want to tell the hon. member—and I believe that he agrees with me; that he believes in the involvement of communities—that the initiative cannot proceed only from the State or from the Department of Coloured Affairs, but that the co-operation and the motivation of the local Coloured communities are also necessary to achieve this. The hon. member has sound ideas. I know that he is conversant with this subject, and I promise him that positive attention will be devoted to this particular aspect in future.

The hon. member for Oudtshoorn discussed farm workers and the goodwill which existed between employer and employee on the farms. He referred to the Cape Agricultural Union, an organization which goes out of its way to instruct its members—i.e. farmers—in regard to the desirable attitude and frame of mind on the part of an employer towards his employees. What the hon. member for Oudtshoorn said here is apparently news to some other hon. members; to those hon. members who do not know how intensively organized agriculture is setting about this task. Last year I had the privilege of addressing the congress of the Cape Agricultural Union here in Cape Town. On that occasion special emphasis was given to this aspect. The Agricultural Union subsequently followed this up with pamphlets, one of which I have here before me. I am indebted to the Cape Agricultural Union on this score.

On 12 July I shall open the congress of the Boland Agricultural Union here. Once again the same theme will be discussed; that of the ideal relationship between employer and employee. The hon. member went on to refer to the joint agricultural committee which meets regularly, together with a group of rural members of the CRC. It was my privilege to attend one of those meetings here in Cape Town earlier this year, and I can bear personal witness to the results which flowed from the talks which were held by this responsible body. In my opinion this is the umpteenth demonstration that consultation, in contrast to confrontation, does produce results.

The hon. member for Umlazi—being a former member of the South African Police Force—quite rightly drew attention to the fact that, in comparison with the White and Bantu members of the Police Force, the approximately 1 600 Coloured members are really insufficient. For that reason I agree with the hon. member. But there are specific problems.

† According to the hon. member there seems to be a hiatus in the liaison between my department and the Department of the hon. the Minister of Justice, of Police and of Prisons. That is definitely not the case. I can assure the hon. member of the effective liaison between myself and the hon. the Minister of Police. Wherever I go—and I have had the opportunity of addressing, among others, Coloured students and Coloured school pupils—I repeat the appeal to them to choose a career in the Police Service, if possible. I have also, on several occasions, attended parades by the Coloured police cadets here in Cape Town. I just want to inform the hon. member that there are other problems involved, especially as regards the Cape Peninsula. Nevertheless, Coloured youths seem to be in the process of adopting a very positive attitude towards the police service. Furthermore, I hope that what I announced this afternoon will eventually serve and benefit the South African Police, as well as the Department of Defence, as is already the case.

*The hon. member for Malmesbury said quite correctly that between the Coloured community and the NP there had always been a relationship which was based on sincere intentions. The hon. member said that, literally speaking, we had always taken the hands of the Coloureds, and any Coloured with sincere intentions will concede that the NP and the Government has never acted dishonestly toward the Coloured community.

The hon. member for Namaqualand referred to the rural areas. The hon. member has detailed knowledge of this, because quite a few of these areas are situated within his constituency. The hon. member pointed to a specific deficiency in most of the extensive agricultural areas, i.e. the fact that it is communal land. If there is livestock that has to graze, the land is trampled. When it rains, washaways of communal farming are also observable here. I think I have to point out to the hon. member that there are a few of the rural areas, at least where this is not the case. If the hon. member read a recent edition of the Landbouweekblad he would have seen a wonderful article on how it is done in the Mier rural area, just south of the Kalahari Gemsbok Park. Last year I had the privilege of visiting that area, and I was impressed by the price which those Coloured farmers have in their land, their grazing strips, as they are called there. If one of those people show you the veld, they do not like driving over the veld with a vehicle, for it flattens the excellent grass growing there. That is the measure of pride which these people have for their land. Land tenure already exists in some of the other more intensive rural areas, such as Haarlem. The basic approach of the hon. member, i.e. that we should seek to achieve to private land tenure, is quite acceptable to me. I agree with him. The Rural Coloured Areas Act provides that progress may be made to economic units, whether by means of private ownership, whether by means of the Mier rural area. However, I am in cordial agreement with the hon. member that a farmer becomes attached to his land when he receives right of ownership over his land. He will then do everything in his power to protect that land against erosion. That is the aim which we should seek to achieve in respect of the Coloured rural areas.

The hon. member also drew my attention to the great potential of irrigation land within existing Coloured rural areas along the Orange River. In the past I had the privilege of paying a quick visit to those areas. I was impressed by what I saw there, and if we are able to obtain the co-operation of the Department of Water Affairs, I believe that the potential is there to establish a large number of Coloured farmers in that area economically and effectively. Within 14 days after the prorogation of Parliament the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs and I shall pay another visit to that area to investigate these matters intensively. The hon. member also requested that a committee be appointed to inquire into and make new zonings with the view to the purchase of land for Coloured farmers from lands adjoining the existing Coloured rural areas. I am well disposed towards this matter, and shall definitely take it further.

The hon. member for Worcester discussed the relations committees. I am grateful that he drew our attention to this important aspect. The first of these committees was appointed in May last year. As soon afterwards as 29 and 30 March a country-wide conference of delegates was held. At present 80 such committees have already been established, ten more than the number which we initially envisaged. I believe that this number will virtually double within a year. The hon. member for Sea Point referred to the good work which is being done by these committees. He realizes that the relations between individuals are improving. However, I think the hon. member is a little ignorant of the set-up of the relations committee system. Last year, when the first relations committees were established, the hon. member was just as ignorant, and alleged that it was a new thing which no one knew anything about. But in reality I had already announced it the previous year in this House. The hon. member was not sufficiently wide awake at the time. It seems as though he still does not know that the intention with relations committees is to get the leaders of the two communities together and from thence to convey positive messages to the relevant communities and organizations which are subsequently continued by way of interpersonal relationships. The hon. member made the strange allegation that Ministers of Coloured Affairs change regularly, and I wonder what is worrying the hon. member now. The first Minister of Coloured Affairs is today the leader of the House of Assembly. Therefore I do not think he retrogressed. My predecessor, the hon. the Minister of Health and Planning, is still here. In the two highest positions of the two highest councils in the country, one will find another two of my predecessors as President and Speaker.

What did the hon. member try to achieve with his statement? I think it redounds to the credit of this particular office that the incumbents have made such progress. The hon. member said that the majority of the Coloureds rejected the policy of the Government. It is a fact that 50% of the registered voters who did in fact vote—and only half of the registered voters voted—do not believe in the policy of the Government, but a process of political incitement was maintained over a long period, a process in which not only a small group of prominent Coloured leaders are participating, but in which White politicians are also participating in this Black Power politics. Should this now prevent one from helping that population group on the road ahead? I can tell the hon. member now that Mr. Curry, a former member of the Executive, and a group of his people held long talks with me this week. In this way there are other groups as well who come to see me regularly. There are signs that politics is on the move among the Coloured population, that there is movement and that there is resistance to confrontation politics. There are also signs of willingness to co-operate with the Government on the road which it has indicated. What point is the hon. member now trying to gain by saying that the majority of the Coloureds have rejected the policy of the Government?

The hon. member asked me how many Coloureds there were on the staff of the University of the Western Cape. As the hon. member knows, there are approximately 2 400 students at the University of the Western Cape. This includes the extramural division. I think it is an achievement for this young university, after approximately 16 years of existence. In the appointment of staff preference is always given to Coloureds if there are applicants. The latest figures, those for 1975, in respect of the staff is as follows: Teaching—197 Whites and 67 Coloureds; administrative—11 Whites and 146 Coloureds. This gives a total of 208 Whites and 213 Coloureds. Steady progress is being made.

In addition to Dr. Van der Ross who was appointed as rector at the beginning of last year, a Coloured professor has also been appointed. The appointment of a second Coloured professor has just been approved. He will assume his duties in January 1977. The hon. member also referred to the question of lodgings at the university. The hon. member is acquainted with his old university, and with mine at Stellenbosch. Both have problems with accommodation for students. In this way, too, there are problems in this regard at the University of the Western Cape and there is a need for accommodation for the students. As it happens a delegation from the management committee of the university council of the University of the Western Cape came to me earlier this year, and we discussed this and other problems. My department was in a position to render assistance in this regard, after special representations to the Department of Public Works. As a result a crash programme was put into operation and it will be possible to accommodate an additional 200 students in hostels next year. It will also be possible to provide further accommodation in future. There was one aspect which I found particularly interesting. While the delegation from the university council were discussing matters with me, I pointed out to them that a 3-in, single column report had appeared the previous day in a local afternoon newspaper on the great need for accommodation at the University of the Western Cape. On another page of the same newspaper, however, there was a three column report on the great need for hostel accommodation at the University of Stellenbosch. This is therefore a problem which exists at all universities. However, special measures have been put into operation as a result of representations from the university council, and it is now possible to accommodate considerably more students.

The hon. member for False Bay, in addition to pointing out to the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central that the Coloureds do in fact attach great value to identity, also discussed the question of local government. I trust that the reply with which I have furnished the hon. member for Rondebosch will satisfy the hon. member.

The hon. member for Rissik, like the hon. member for Edenvale, felt a little like indulging in politicking. Oh well, I do not begrudge the two of them doing so. They did not launch attacks on one another, but apparently they enjoyed it.

The hon. member for Berea pointed out that the estimates in respect of Coloured Affairs had increased by 10,1% in comparison with the estimates in respect of Indian and Bantu Affairs. I did not have the time to compare the figures. However, I want to tell the hon. member that that, in itself, is not of much significance to me. There might be exceptional circumstances as to why the estimates in the case of the one increases to a greater extent in a given financial year than in the case of another. I can, for example, tell the hon. member that there are more Indian children attending high school than in the case of the Coloureds. This inevitably entails considerably increased expenditure.

The hon. member also mentioned the Wentworth area which, as the hon. member knows, is an area which is being redeveloped. In particular the hon. member discussed the fact that there are no sport facilities in that area. The hon. member put a question to me in this regard the other day. My information is that the existing Coloured school grounds in Wentworth, apparently as a result of circumstances such as the structure of the soil, makes the development of sports fields difficult. However, the redevelopment of the schools has already been planned and programmed. This is why the hon. member obtained the information for the years which lie ahead. As soon as the work has been carried out by the Department of Public Works, it will also be possible to provide the sports grounds on the new site.

The hon. member also discussed Spark’s Estate, which is of course known to my department and to the Department of Community Development. I appreciate the hon. member’s interest in this area. I want to give the hon. member the assurance that, recently, there has been the closest co-operation between my department, together with the Administration of Coloured Affairs and the Department of Community Development, as well as the Department of Public Works in the correlation of projects. Punctilious care is taken to ensure that no major housing project is commenced without the knowledge of the Administration of Coloured Affairs, so that planning can be carried out simultaneously for the necessary school facilities which the Department of Public Works has to carry out.

This reminds me of a question which the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central asked me. The hon. member wanted to know where provision is being made for school buildings. The hon. member will find it under the “Public Works” Vote. The hon. member might as well take a look at it.

I am very grateful to be able to say that my colleagues, the hon. the Minister of Community Development and the hon. the Minister of Public Works, and I understand one another perfectly. We work together as a team to correlate these matters. Therefore I want to tell the hon. member that if high density occupation should develop in the form of flats, the necessary planning for school accommodation will be made at the same time.

The hon. member for Bellville discussed the matter of labour, and pointed out that a large sector of the Coloured population is today performing skilled labour, and also what one could call white-collar labour. The hon. member linked this phenomenon to the rise of a middle class. I am grateful to the hon. member for having drawn attention to this fact. I can inform hon. members that the best estimate which can be made today of the rise in income and in the income capacity of the Coloured population is an underestimate of the position. There are certain signs which serve as a barometer, for example the number of motor vehicles, the clothes worn by people, school attendance and the attendance of colleges and universities. The rise of a middle class among the Coloured population is more rapid than any of us realize. This is due to opportunities which are being created for the Coloured population. Therefore I am pleased that the hon. member drew attention to the rise of a middle class. It has also produced Coloured businessmen, and Coloured entrepreneurs, who are trying to render a service to their own community. The hon. member discussed the need which exists for suitable business premises and also for capital. The hon. member will know that the Coloured Persons Development Corporation is playing a tremendous part in this regard, also in the form of courses and the training of people. In addition there are certain other organizations, inter alia the S.A. Handelsinstituut, which are offering courses to assist Coloureds, particularly those in their initial stages as entrepreneurs. Nevertheless I am grateful for the ideas which the hon. member expressed here.

I do not think the hon. member for Edenvale would take it amiss of me if I said that the speech which he made here, was really relevant, as he in fact implied himself, to the debate which will take place tomorrow and not to the discussion of this Vote. He raised interesting points, inter alia the question of sound relations. He also said that the position of the Afrikaners in the ’thirties was not comparable to that of the Coloureds. In certain respects the hon. member is correct. He said that as long as the Coloureds did not have political bargaining powers, they will not be able to obtain equality. Nevertheless I want to tell the hon. member that there is a tendency among some people to tell the Coloured population that their position is not comparable. I do not want to dispute what the hon. member said, but the Coloureds are being told that they are in an inferior position and that the Whites are keeping them there. I want to dispute this statement and issue a very serious warning against making such statements, for it cultivates a guilt complex among the Whites and on the other hand it cultivates a feeling among the Coloureds that they are being wronged. The doors are open to any Coloureds, as the hon. member for Bellville testified here this afternoon. The doors are open to them and in addition the evidence of improvement is legion. I believe that if the Coloureds wish to make use of the opportunities which are being opened up for them today, there is no end to their progress. I believe, on the other hand, that the Coloureds should not allow themselves to be misled by the idea that they cannot help themselves and that everything should be given to them. If they are able to get away from that idea, and accept the idea of doing things for themselves, together with what the authorities and others are doing for them, the progress of the Coloured community will be even more rapid.

The hon. member for Langlaagte made representations on behalf of the Coloured deaf in the vicinity of Johannesburg. Representations in regard to these people were made to me recently, and the necessary attention is being given to the matter. I want to assure the hon. member that I understand the situation. The hon. member also discussed the proclamation of group areas, and I can assure him that I know the circumstances. I have paid personal visits to that area and I know that it is a good kind of Coloured person who is living there, people who want to go ahead. Attention will be given to the matter in conjunction with the Department of Planning and the Environment.

I think that I have replied to all the questions, but if there are questions which I have omitted to reply to, I shall gladly furnish hon. members with written replies after the debate.

Votes agreed to.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.