In 1938, in the inaugural address at the meeting of the National Research Council the hon. the Acting Prime Minister referred to research in these words—

This Bill if the fulfilment of the hope expressed in those words. I congratulate the Minister on its introduction. I wish, Sir, to refer briefly to the research work conducted in our universities. A special committee in 1940 reported on this matter to the Minister concerned. One of the biggest difficulties is that teaching and research are parallel functions, and the research function is undoubtedly sacrificed to the teaching function. That is to say, it is sacrificed to the examination fetish. This policy too, has the result of tending to crowd our universities in the early courses with large numbers of immature young men and women. In the second place, the universities have no special funds for research. What research funds they have are obtained from their general funds or from endowments. I hope that this Bill will later make provision for special grants to the universities for research. There is undoubtedly a great need for a forward policy in South Africa on those lines. In the South Africain Journal of Economics towards the end of last year figures were given as to the amount spent in various countries on research. It was said that 1 per cent. of the national income was spent in Russia, three-tenths of 1 per cent. in the United States, one-tenth of 1 per cent. in Great Britain. If Dr. Schonland could have access to one-tenth of 1 per cent. of the South African national income, a sum in the neighbourhood of £500,000, he would be able to do the national work he is designated for with confidence. Figures for Canada are rather interesting. There they had just prior to the war 1,000 industrial laboratories, with over 5,000 professional and non-professional workers. Funds invested in laboratories in Canada for research purposes amounted to £2,500,000, i.e. for industrial research. The annual expenditure on research was £2,000,000. If the Research Council to be established will grant lump sums to the universities, it would be able to prescribe the field of research, and the present unsatisfactory practice of prosecuting research mainly in order to obtain Master’s degrees or doctorates would be modified, very much to the advantage of the country. Now, Sir, notwithstanding the Minister’s statement that social research would be excluded from the provisions of this Bill, I trust, however, that later the Bill will extend research into the social sciences. The need for that was well expressed by Professor Young, to whom the Minister made a gracious and worthy reference. Professor Young says—

We need to speed up this branch of research in order to avoid a lop-sided research policy in the Union. It is only on a multidirectional research basis into our resources and conditions that we can hope to develop South Africa’s material wealth and social welfare. I therefore join with the hon. member for Cape Eastern (Mrs. Ballinger) in pleading with the Minister to include social research among the activities of the council. This Bill should result in stimulating social research in the Union and in that way our colleges could take, as is their national duty, more guidance in determining social objectives for our people and in formulating social programmes. For too long the universities have been satisfied to go smoothly along teaching what is well-known and traditional, with the result that our young men and women come out of the universities with an ideology largely negative and passive in regard to our social problems. That policy also tends to promote the money-earning value of degrees. In other words, lacking proper research activities, the universities have become to a large extent only senior vocational schools with an examination bias; I could correctly say, almost an examination psychosis. This Bill, I believe, should help to get rid of that, and put a stop to the policy of placing science in the shackles of theory, tradition and isolation. Only research, as the hon. member for Gardens (Dr. L. P. Bosman) reminded us, and more research, can break those bonds, The war has largely changed our attitude to social problems. The Prime Minister in a moving portion of his speech before he went overseas told us that the time had arrived when it is now necessary for us to restate our social ideals. That, I believe, is one of the most important functions of our universities. They should conduct research into social trends; I would go further and say that they should actually plan those trends. Why? Because the social order of the future requires planning; planning requires intelligence, a body of knowledge and definite objectives. The only alternative to chaos and insecurity in the future is a planned society. We must look, therefore, to the universities to formulate on the basis of technical and sociological research (I fail to see where we can draw any satisfactory line of demarcation between these two branches) our social goals and determine the techniques by which we can realise them. I believe that this desirable object can be promoted to a great extent by this Bill. Now, I wish to say a few words in regard to co-ordination. I take it that it will not be the policy of the council to do research itself in the meantime until it has its own buildings and laboratories; but that it will instead, right away, initiate, sponsor and encourage research in the appropriate centres. I think that in this matter we may well take the example of Canada, by setting up associated committees under the proposed council to achieve unity; for co-ordination cannot mean much if it does not utilise the technical knowledge of the men in the universities, in the Government departments and in industries, so that they work together as a national unit. I think also we should not allow the experience gained during the war to be lost. Investigations conducted during the war in connection with the National Supplies Board, the Director-General of Supplies, the Board of Trade and Industries, the commodity controllers, the food controller and the Planning Council—all these investigations need co-ordination, so that the technical knowledge acquired during the war might go into our national research records. In South Africa, as in England, in comparison with the United States and Canada, the volume of research in industry is very thin indeed. We could, of course, blame the Government for this. I think a great deal of blame can be laid at the door of our economic system. I take one illustration only, namely, the excessive protection given to industry. This has led to the growth of cartels, quotas and tariffs. These have resulted in ensuring profits; and when profits are ensured and almost guaranteed in that way, plant and equipment and production methods in use at the time are generally regarded as good enough. We can go so far in our protectionist policy as to give it a prohibitive effect on research. The remedy lies partly with the State. I believe this Bill can clear the decks of some cartellised influences in South. Africa; and give further stimulus to the research which is so necessary to industrial progress. The remedy lies also with industry. I was glad to have that note sounded in the Minister’s speech. Industry should use research to a greater degree in order to achieve greater efficiency and in that way lower costs, and so make less urgent the need for high protection. Then again we have an example in the United States of boards of directors in big industry with men, sometimes in a majority, who are specialists in certain branches of science. How many South African concerns can say that on their boards of directors there are several scientific authorities? I hope this proposed council will begin right away by impressing upon industry the necessity for investigation into industrial possibilities and that industry might make more use of men with specialised training. In that way we can bring the laboratory and the production line, of which we shall hear more in future in this country, into very much more closer cooperation than they are today. This Bill will make a notable contribution to the progress of this country. I hope it will help to speed up the industrial progress of the country in a manner we have never realised in the past. It will help also to maintain the value of researches achieved during the war; I am confident it will be a very effective instrument in planning the peace.

I also wish to associate myself with other members in welcoming the introduction of this Bill. Science, like religion, belongs to the people. It is not the property of any one individual or any one nation. It also has that further similarity, that the more you take out of it the more you find there is in it. I believe that this Scientific Council will help us not only to discover our national assets, but will also help 4 us in the utilisation of those assets and to see that our national assets are not wasted. The Council will be able to do invaluable work by putting before us the results of its scientific investigations. These investigations should lead to up-to-date industrial development. I believe that this Council will do a tremendous lot of good if it also devotes its energies to a scientific agricultural survey of our country. In this way it will be able to help our food production enormously. It will be able to help us to produce the best kinds of food, that we should take full advantage of our soil, and in that way it will help us to safeguard the health of the nation. I would like to refer you, Sir, to an article that recently appeared in “American News.” In this article it was stated that in one district where vegetables were grown in a certain class of soil it was found that these vegetables were deficient in iron, and in that district between 52 per cent. and 96 per cent. were found to be anaemic. Dr. Abbott, who made this investigation, states: “It appears then that soil deficiency operating through the plants grown thereon and ultimately on the health of the people, is a factor which should be considered”. I would like to see our Onderstepoort laboratories transferred to this Council, to work under this Council, instead of under the Agricultural Department as at present. I feel that then the research workers will be able to devote their energies entirely to the scientific side. I feel that they should be free from departmental regulations. May I here quote an experience I myself had. Years ago when I was up at a factory I was told to investigate the extraction of nicotine from tobacco; but I was told, we have an old extraction plant here and you had to fit in your investigation in such a way that we can use this derelict plant for extracting the nicotine. We certainly did succeed in extracting nicotine with that plant, but it assuredly was not done in the most efficient manner. Therefore I am advocating here that the Onderstepoort laboratory should be free from all departmental regulations, that they should not be governed in their research work by expediency, by something that might suit the department at the time. They should get on with the work in the true interests of the country. The hon. member for Gardens (Dr. L. P. Bosman) referred to the fact that our forbears used penicillin long before it was officially recognised as having been discovered, or rather though we now say we have recently discovered it. The same sort of thing has happened in other directions. For example, for a long time now people in Natal found they could make meat tender by wrapping it in paw-paw leaves. Recently the Americans discovered that they could for this purpose extract a substance which they are selling today under the name of Tendra, which can be used even for tenderising old roosters—and incidentally they are quite good after being treated with Tendra.

Why not try it on the Cabinet.

A most effective way of marking linen, etc. is by tattooing the juice of an avocado pip on to it. It does not wash out. All these things we can make use of. Research naturally helps us to make use of our natural resources. Owing to our mild climate here in South Africa the majority of our houses are heated by open coal fires. Coal fires are particularly low in efficiency as regards giving out the heat that could be given out. They are particularly efficient, however, as regards polluting the air. Owing also to our only being able to extract the heat available in the coal by that inefficient way we have the benefit of only 20 per cent. to 25 per cent. of the heat available, whereas in a properly constructed plant today we can get over 85 per cent. of the heat available. Not only are we polluting the air but we are wasting the heat this coal is able to give us. An average adult consumes about 30 lbs. of air a day. He consumes about 3 to 4 lbs. of solid foods, and he consumes about 4 lbs. of water per day. We note through these figures, therefore, that it is necessary for us to breathe pure air, when we consider, as I remarked earlier, that we consume on an average per day 30 lbs. of air. Getting back to our heating system it is possible that this research council may show us how we may have a central heating system which would not only heat up the houses but would also provide us with the necessary hot water which we need for bathing, washing-up and all the rest of it. They could provide it in such a way that the air would not be polluted nearly to the same extent as it is today. They could advise us how we could do that. They would also in that way bring about that it would be relatively easy to heat many rooms in our houses. Today owing to cost, more especially in areas far removed from the coalfields, we find only one, or two at the most, of our rooms is heated, and that possibly also accounts for unnecessary dampness occurring in the rooms. This heating system will therefore also help us as regards the health of the nation generally. I feel we could have an efficient centralised system and carry the hot water for several miles. In that way we could help to keep the air pure, and provide heat and render it available to all. I feel also the council should see that our national assets are not wasted by private enterprise, more especially as this would affect future generations. Today we are still producing coke by the old beehive methods where all the by-products are wasted. That is something I feel the council will advise the Government should be put an end to. That is one thing that should be put an end to. Years ago there was a big factory in Natal which, in order to extract 2 per cent. of nitrogen from the coal, burnt all the by-products to atmosphere. It is true they did hope when they started that other industries would go there and that the power would be made available. But it is not just to future generations that a concern should be allowed to destroy our assets in such a way. I feel that this scientific council will do a tremendous amount of good in bringing to the notice of the Government matters such as these. The most important thing they will have to do first of all is to diagnose, and then to treat. After all, it is essential before we plan first of all to have our survey. This survey and this diagnosing will be done by the industrial council. It sounds simple but it is not being done, for the simple reason we have never yet had a council that has been able to give this advice. I welcome the introduction of such a council. Our industrial development in South Africa has been very much on the principle of copying what is being done elsewhere or else on the hit-or-miss principle. We know as science develops this hit-or-miss principle has got to be done away with. We know the value of X-rays, we know the value of X-rays in diagnosis today, and you will find the up-to-date doctors are making full use of it. This council should also help us as regards our housing problem. They should plan to avoid abuse and the mistakes that are usually made in a country which is starting industrial development. We find these abuses and mistakes resulting in slums, in death-trap roads and in areas finally having to be deserted. This we find simply because there was no proper planning in the early stages of the industrial development. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would recommend to this council that it uses efficiency and stability in industrial development as its yardstick; and that it does therefore lead us to the belief and show us the necessity of having a far-sighted policy and not, as is so often the case, just looking for immediate profits. We owe a great debt to future generations, and I look to the council to advise us as to how we can pay that debt and to see we do not in the meantime waste any assets which are the property of future generations. One little example. Supposing you have a coal seam of 6 ft. and above it a coal seam of 3 ft. In order to put profits into the pockets of the shareholders it might be decided to work the lower seam, and through that the upper seam would be lost to future generations. That is not a fair policy; it is a policy of this generation stealing from future generations.

Of course we welcome this Bill which is now before the House. Research is the heart of the organism of development and of the industry and other scientific activities in the country. Possibly we never had any legislation on any matter in connection with which so much depended on one appointment. The result of this legislation depends 100 per cent. on the man who is to be appointed at the head of it. Research is not something which one can manufacture, but something which can only be developed by somebody who is gifted and who is a born research worker. That is the reason why in this case the entire result and success of the legislation depends on the man who, as the head or president of this body, will have to give guidance throughout the country. I believe that the Government in this case will succeed in appointing such a person. I think that the intentions of the Government are of such a nature that we in South Africa will really be in the position of obtaining a research organisation which lives and not one which will be petrified. Research can be as dead as a stone and consequently it depends on the man at the head of it whether progress will be made. Furthermore, I am glad to notice that a certain measure of freedom is given to institutes, universities and other organisations which are already doing research work and what we need further in South Africa, as other countries also need it, is that the head of such an organisation shall be somebody who can discover talents and is able to notice it where it is present among the ordinary citizens of the country. The difficulty which research bureaux of the State or a bureau which has to be a unit without branches and without co-operation from the universities, is that certain persons may be appointed as research workers in certain directions, whereafter it may become apparent that the whole thing is a failure because those people do not possess the particular talents for the work. We therefore feel that this legislative measure is of the utmost importance and that it contains the seed for great success in South Africa. I am not so certain about this committee of nine which is to be appointed because it will be an honorary committee which most likely will meet a few times a year only. It is not quite clear what functions such a committee will be able to exercise. That committee will be advisory but that is something which by its nature is largely a matter for the head of the organisation, and I think that this committee will more or less be a committee which will examine what has been done or what should have been done during the period when the committee was not sitting. That, however, is a matter which we will find out through experience and if it should become apparent that it would be better to have a permanent committee, steps to achieve that can always be taken at a later stage. I therefore welcome this legislation and I feel that if will achieve a certain measure of co-ordination among all branches of research work which will have to be undertaken in South Africa, not only as far as industrial research is concerned but also in regard to all scientific research which we can possibly undertake. There are certain kinds of research work which in my opinion we should not undertake and we cannot undertake. There are people who strongly advocate cancer research. The only cancer research in our country which will be of any value is the clinical form of certain types of treatment. It is a wrong idea that we with our meagre equipment can do more in the discovery of the causes of cancer than what is being done in America and England. Our research in South Africa will largely have to be of a practical nature. Our industries offer a field for research work. We shall have to commence with less highly developed industries and I am certain that the tendency as far as the direction we are going to follow and the people we are going to use, will be of a practical nature. We do not want to restrict them in any way, because research can be divided into two main classes—longterm research and short-term research. My opinion is that we can leave it to fhe experts to keep in mind all the aspects of the matter. As I said before, we welcome this legislation and we see in it the seed for a great development in South Africa.

It is gratifying to note that this particular measure which is before this House is receiving the unanimous support of every section of the House. The Government is often blamed for not going in for progressive legislation, but to my mind this Bill is the natural corollary to legislation passed during the last two Sessions, relating to the reorganisation of the Board of Trade and Industries and the Standards Bill which is to be followed with a research council such as is proposed today. For many years I have been interested in research work, because I think, particularly in a young country we should make our contribution to scientific knowledge as far as the world is concerned, and though we are a small country we should undoubtedly play our part. We had a very interesting resumé from the Acting Prime Minister of the functions of this council, and I think it is very timely because there are many people in this country who are not aware of what is really being done in the country, and when we are informed there is in the country the South African Institute of Medical Research, the Fuel Research Institute, the Leather Research Institute, the Sugar Research Institute, an institute dealing with building research, and on the horizon a national physical laboratory and a deep level mining research institute, it gives us some idea of what is being done and that the Government are mindful of the fact that we in this country have to play our part. What I am concerned about is this. I sincerely hope that under the aegis of this particular council our research workers will be given all the encouragement they possibly can be given. Undoubtedly the research worker, whether in the field of engineering, or the field of chemical research or the field of physics, does not in the ordinary days of peace get a great deal of encouragement. We run to the research worker mainly when we are in trouble, in other words in time of war. During times of peace we fall into the mood of laissez faire and then the research worker is regarded more as a hindrance than anything else. But we have to remember the population of the world is continually increasing. It was computed in 1760 that the population of the world was roughly 600 millions, while today it is computed that the population is about 1,700 millions, and if it had not been for the benefits which science has conferred on mankind that increased population would be starving today. We have to realise that and it is only by a co-operative effort on the part of scientists throughout the world that the population can be maintained. We have to realise, too, that in our own country we have an ever-expanding population. Therefore we have to play our part in the scientific world and in this co-operative effort we should contribute something to the benefit of mankind. That is how I see it, and that is how the scientists see it. The anomalous position has arisen, however, that although scientists have contributed the greatest benefits to humanity they have also been the contributing factor in some of the greatest disasters that have befallen mankind, that is not the fault of the scientist, that is probably the fault of politicians; politicians all over the world. But we have to see to it that politics are put on a sound basis and we should encourage scientists to contribute to the benefit and not to the destruction of mankind. In a country like this we can ‘ill afford to have any waste, and we should exploit every asset to create the optimum amount of employment in the country. In this connection I am of opinion that only by paying the closest attention to the exploitation of our products in connection with the expansion of industry are we going to make the greatest contribution towards the employment of our available manpower. I was rather disappointed in one respect with the remarks of the Acting Prime Minister, when he said that this particular research council would not be directly interested in the question of agriculture. I am quite aware of the fact that a council of this nature cannot dabble in everything, and that it cannot go fully into the question of agriculture. But I want to make this point, that where you have an agricultural product whose ultimate end is a matter of processing or manufacturing the co-ordination of research work in respect of that product is very vital and important as far as industry is concerned; because I view industry, as I said before, in this way, that its value to the country is determined by the optimum amount of manpower it can employ. Therefore it is vitally necessary, in my opinion, that the raw product which has ultimately to be processed is raised to the highest standard possible by the application of science to production. If the raw product entering the factory is a good product it cheapens the cost of manufacture. If you exploit the by-products available in the factory and see to it that a good product enters the factory, you are not only going to cheapen the price of processing as far as the primary product is concerned, but you are also going to cheapen the price of the manufacture of your by-products. That is a natural corollary. I am speaking with a certain amount of experience in regard to an industry which is today paying attention to the exploitation of its by-products. I want to take the opportunity in connection with this Bill of giving the House an opportunity of learning what private enterprise can do at a very low cost, compared with the total cost of its output. For many years, as you know, I have been connected with the sugar industry. We were put into the position whereby in the years 1918 to 1920 we were menaced with a very serious disease known as streak in our cane. We immediately realised that unless we, as an industry, helped ourselves and spent some of our own money we were heading for a serious position. So in the year 1925 we decided to embark on research. Today we are spending only…13 per cent. of our gross output in research, yet that small amount of money has been a most profitable investment, as profitable an investment as any industry in this country has ever embarked upon. Furthermore, as hon. members are aware, the statutory price of sugar was fixed in 1926 and it has remained at that statutory price ever since, in spite of the fact that many other agricultural products have increased by over 100 per cent. Scientific investigation has meant not only an increase in through-put, and a saving to the industry, but it has meant inevitably an increase in our efficiency, which is not only a great asset to the country but is one of the greatest assets which South Africa has today. I want to remind the House that this happy position has been attained solely by the efforts of the sugar industry itself. We did not receive a penny in assistance from the Government nor anybody outside. I shall give the House some idea of how that industry has been enabled at the expense of…13 per cent. of the total output of that industry to gam its present position. We started our research station in 1925. At that time the total output of the industry was obtained from a variety called uba cane, which became diseased. We have since that date imported thousands of seedlings from all over the world, and out of the thousands upon thousands of seedlings which we dealt with we have discovered only three commercial varieties, one of which has saved the industry. I should like to mention that the Government used our scientific laboratories during this war to investigate many things including the greases in wool, a matter which probably people do not appreciate the significance of. At that station, apart from a director, we have an entomologist, a botanist and three research chemists and an analyst, and about three B.Sc. girls to do the work, and the work is of a particularly high standard. In 1934 we were crushing 97 per cent. of uba cane. In 1943 that had dropped down to 7 per cent. In 1936, after the first new varieties were released, we crushed 2 per cent of Co281. In 1943 that variety had increased to 64 per cent. as compared to 2 per cent. in 1936. The scientific investigations we have made have revolutionised not only the agronomic side of the industry, but also the factory side. We have practically replaced our original type of cane by new canes, which have evolved through the work carried out at our research station. We evolved two varieties which have not proved too successful but we have a new one on the stocks coming on now. In other countries, like Louisiana, canes have been replaced 12 to 16 times. The question of disease plays a very important part in the propogation of cane. Mosiac disease is rigidly controlled in this country not only by the Government but by our own station. We do not release anything which is detrimental to the huge industry which turns over £9,000,000 per annum. We have heard a lot of criticism about this industry, but our scientific work has brought up our efficiency to such an extent that we compare very favourably with any other country in the world both from an agronomic point of view and from the factory point of view. I want to give you figures in connection with research. I am bringing up these points to impress upon the country the necessity for private enterprise doing something towards our own country, and spending a little of their money, and to show what can be done with a very small expenditure. In 1935, ten years after we opened our station, our average yield per acre was 20 tons. In 1943 that average production had increased to 30 tons per acre. Our tonnage of sucrose per acre in 1935 was 2.74 tons. In 1943 we had increased that to 3.96 tons. In terms of sugar per acre of production we increased from 2.24 to 3.45 tons an acre. In other words, on every acre of land which is under cultivation we have increased the tonnage of sugar by 50 per cent. That has all been done by research. In other words, as compared with the standard figure of 100 per cent. in 1935, we have increased that index figure to 154 per cent. Now, how do these figures compare with the figures of other countries? I think the House will be anxious to know these figures. In Louisiana, which is one of the biggest sugar producing areas the tonnage per acre is 17.5. In Natal it is 27.2. Take Queensland, with its 20.1 tons as compared with our 27.2 in Natal. Cuba is only 16.7. So we can be very proud of what the sugar industry has done in this country as far as research on the agronomical side is concerned. The point I made first was the question of the quality of raw material entering the factory and what effect that raw material has on factory efficiency, which is a very important point, because that factory efficiency eventually designates the cost of production and therefore the ultimate price to the consumer. In 1923 our milling efficiency was 73.28 per cent. We have increased that milling efficiency in 1943 to 83.52 per cent. which is an increase of 10 per cent. over a period of twenty years. I want to give you some idea of how that milling efficiency compares with milling efficiencies in other countries. In Queensland milling efficiency is 86.88 per cent. Our efficiency is 83.52 per cent. Therefore there is a difference of 3.36 per cent. between us and one of the best milling areas in the world. Louisiana has a milling efficiency of 79.42 per cent. as compared with our 83.52. And so it goes on, right through the picture. It is only Queensland and Porto Rico which have a higher efficiency than Natal. What has made that possible? It was made possible by scientific research on our part by getting a better product into the factory and in the filtering process, carried out at the mills and at the station. It has made possible the continuous filtration process by which, instead of only using 24 per cent. masuration water in our first masurations we have been able to increase that to 35 per cent. which means that with continuous masuration and filtration we can today extract more from our residues than we have been able to extract in the past, and therefore our milling efficiency has gone up. I want to come back to the first point. All this has been made possible by an improvement in the raw material entering the factory. It is for that reason that I sincerely hope that this research council will take some cognisance of raw materials which enter a factory and which are manufactured into a product which finds its way to the consumer. It is a very vital point. Because if we are going to exploit our by-products, the better the raw material entering the factory the better the manufactured product will be and also the better the by-product, and you will thus cheapen the manufacture of the primary product and also that of your by-product. I said just now that in this particular industry probably we can do more. We recognised that fact to this extent that we are now passing our experimental station over purely to research in the agronomic field. We will probably later set up another research station in connection with the engineering side also. I have no doubt that hon. members recently read about a by-product in which we are interesting ourselves. The Government carried out quite a lot of work in connection with it at their low temperature laboratories in Cape Town. That is in connection with a food yeast made out of the by-products of molasses. Reports are that it is 100 per cent. better than any nutritional product they have handled so far, and we are hoping for big developments from its use, because one has to realise that if we are able to turn out 20,000 to 30,000 tons of this yeast per annum which is very high in proteins and in vitamin B, it may prove to be a national remedy for malnutrition, and if we legislate to put an admixture of this yeast in every bag of meal and flour and bran which goes to the lower economic groups, it will be the means of giving the necessary nutrition to the sub-economic groups without them knowing anything at all about it and I am therefore hopeful that this particular development is going to be of great value to the country. Furthermore, research at our station has recently revealed the fact —and my attention has been brought to it this last week—that pictures have been shown in the cinemas in connection with a new phase in our agronomic research. We have discovered in the planting of our sets of cane that invariably a fungoid disease gets into them due to soil conditions and retards germination by 25 per cent. or 30 per cent. We have now discovered that by dipping these sets into a compound of agrosan and another element, the name of which I forget for the moment, prior to planting, we can practically guarantee 100 per cent. germination. When you get approximately 100 per cent. germination in such a crop one can visualise that there is not only going to be an increase in production but another weapon for fighting soil erosion because you get better cover, and we are hoping that we will get great results out of the increased germination of these sets with this agrosan compound. I do not want to deal with this too long, but I thought I would take this opportunity of telling the House just a few facts of what can be done by private enterprise if they take their courage in their hands and spend a little money in order to make their contribution towards our new industrial progress which inevitably has to take place in this country if we really want to have a progressive South Africa. I sincerely hope that the Treasury, which is always the chief asset in these undertakings, will be generous to the research worker and give him every credit for what he is trying to do, and remunerate him adequately. Research is a long-term process it is not a thing like a sausage machine where you put meat in at one end and a sausage emerges at the other end in a few minutes. It is a long process and we have to encourage our universities and technical colleges and also private enterprise to do research work. Pay the men adequately, and get the best results. As far as the Bill is concerned, I have no comments to make. I have read it carefully and I think it is framed on very broad terms indeed. I think the objects which this council has to carry out are excellent. They cover as far as I can see practically every field of scientific research. The Acting Prime Minister told us that this council would primarily come under the Prime Minister’s Department, or the Department of External Affairs. I personally cannot see that it will remain there very long. Although we realise that the Prime Minister has research very much at heart I do think that with our ever increasing industrial expansion it is inevitable that this council must sooner or later come under the Minister ’of Economic Development. I notice that in paragraph 3 the council have to carry out any such work as may be assigned to it by the Minister, and in conclusion I wish to say that we hope the Minister will set the council to work at once and that he will give this council such autonomous power that they can get on with the job and go in for research work which is so necessary in all our factories, with a view to ensuring that we will play our part in the future of South Africa and make adequate provision for the industrialisation of this country.

I shall be very brief. Whilst welcoming the principle of this Bill we want to express the hope that this Bill will really usher in a new period of scientific research in South Africa, and not only a new period of scientific research but also a period of scientific appreciation. I believe that this is one of our great shortcomings in our country today. It is a fact that the road which a scientist has to travel very often is uphill, lonely and in many cases very thankless. I hope that this Bill will at the same time usher in a period of appreciation of science, and in that case we will no longer have occurrences such as we recently had in the case of Dr. Mönnig and Dr. Malan of Onderstepoort. If there is one thing which fills a person with grief then it is the lack of appreciation of the great part which science will have to play in the future of our national life. In many cases we look in vain for the beacon of science. In many cases we are merely groping in the dark. Furthermore I want to associate myself with the remarks of other hon. members in regard to an aspect which we always had trouble with in the past, namely a lack of funds for research work. I hope that such conditions will now come to an end in South Africa and that we will be able to obtain the necessary funds for proper research work. That is one of the great shortcomings which we are faced with today. What is more, I hope that scientists will receive proper remuneration not only for their inventions but also in regard to their salaries. I think the hon. member for Cape Town (Gardens) (Dr. L. P. Bosman) referred to the difficulty at present existing in this regard. It is a reflection on our conditions in South Africa that such a large number of our scientists have to find an existence abroad. That is a reflection on the policy of our country. Furthermore I should like to associate myself with the remarks made by the hon. member for Ceres (Dr. Stals), namely that care will have to be taken that this body will remain in the hands of South Africans. We have sufficient scientists in our country and I hope that the Minister will carefully look after this aspect of the matter. You can only foster a feeling of confidence in the future among your young scientists if they can feel that the leadership is in the hands of our own scientists. We cannot entirely divorce science from the subjective aspect. There must also be a South African outlook and I hope that very close and very conscientious attention will be given to that aspect. The actual reason why I got up was that I wanted to suggest that the following be added to the objects of the Bill: The publication of and support to and encouragement of publication of works of a scientific nature. I would like to suggest that the Minister insert this as one of the objects of the Bill. This is one of the things which give us much difficulty today. We know that the market for scientific works in South Africa is very limited today, and especially the market for scientific works in the Afrikaans language. I hope that this House Will give the necessary encouragement and will make thé necessary money available for the publication of such works

I welcome the introduction of this Bill, but instead of going into the advantages of the Bill which everyone agrees on. I want to state some of the objections I have against this Bill. The hon. Minister when introducing the Bill said that the Council would not interfere with research work carried out at Onderstepoort and the Agricultural Department. T want to deal with that not as a scientist but purely as a practical farmer. There are many reasons why this Bill and the Council should function also in regard to research by the Agricultural Department at Onderstepoort. Much has been said today about Onderstepoort, and we all agree that it is one of the most wonderful institutions in the world and has done most valuable work for agriculture, but the fact remains that much of the valuable work done there cannot be passed on to the farming industry in this country. The scientists there cannot visit our farms and when there is a problem with which we are faced there has been no-one who has been able to absorb and make use of the knowledge gained and research work done there, and to let the farmers as a whole have the benefit of it. We have had a great deal of criticism of the farming industry in this country, that we are inefficient, that our costs of production are too high and that we cannot compete with production in other countries. Well, in a very large measure that is due to lack of research knowledge in our problems. Just to illustrate it I would like to explain to the Minister some of our problems in the dairy industry. Due to our not being able to make use to the full of the discoveries made and knowledge gained at Onderstepoort, the cost of production of our milk has been raised by 4d. a gallon, due to certain diseases and other problems from which our dairy herds suffer from time to time. Onderstepoort has been able to carry out research in this respect. Dr. Quinlan, who is the scientist there who has this knowledge, if he could have visited some of the farmers, he would have been; able to cure animals of such things as mastitis, contagious abortion and vaginitis and many other diseases which make our cows sterile. But there is no way of his imparting that knowledge to our veterinary officers who have to assist us in this matter. Many of the veterinary officers have said to me that if Onderstepoort could only have short courses for them, to impart to them the knowledge that has been gained at Onderstepoort, they could help us very much, but under present conditions they are forced to try out all sorts of cures and treatments of their own without being able to make use of the valuable information they have at Onderstepoort. That is the unfortunate position, that that valuable information is bottled up and throtted in Onderstepoort, which is run by the Agricultural Department. I hope the Minister will see his way clear to do what the hon. member for Newcastle (Mr. Robertson) has pleaded for, namely that Onderstepoort should be taken out of the control of the Agricultural Department. Let it function as a research institute in the interests of the agricultural industry of this country and educated officials with their knowledge gained by research. To illustrate to the Minister how serious this matter is, even at one of the Government agricultural colleges—I will not mention its name here—90 per cent. of their dairy cows were infected with mastitis at one time. If that is the position at an agricultural college, what is the position of the ordinary farmer, when such a state of affairs can pertain at a Government institute which has the assistance of the Agricultural Department at its disposal, what must the farmer do? I know of a good farmer in my constituency, a young man with intelligence and energy. He has a valuable dairy herd and for two years he has been struggling with an infection in his dairy cows which the local veterinary officer cannot diagnose or successfully treat, and he cannot get assistance from Onderstepoort. That unfortunate man has already had to send 50 per cent. of his cows to the abattoir, and many of the others he cannot get into calf. Onderstepoort has all that knowledge and should help by imparting the knowledge to our local Government vets. He has applied to Dr. Quinlan to visit his herd and to give his veterinary officer the necessary advice, but without success. That is due to the control of the Agricultural Department. If Onderstepoort were free from the control of that department it could hold courses and instruct and educate the veterinary surgeons, who are Government men, with the knowledge that is necessary to deal with our problems. But now the farmer has to struggle with his problems alone and the veterinary officers we have know very little about the diseases and troubles the farmers have to struggle with; they have become purely office men. Onderstepoort has done a lot of good service in supplying farmers with virus for certain diseases and giving us locust poison, etc., etc., but these are things which Onderstepoort should not manufacture. It should be done by other institutions and Onderstepoort should concentrate purely on research work. They should impart their knowledge to other officers of the department who can make use of it for the benefit of agriculture as a whole. The hon. member for Zululand (Mr. Morris) in a very interesting speech has been able to show what private research has done for the sugar industry, which research has been functioning only under that industry itself. I am quite sure that if that institution were under Government control it would never have done what it did. My plea is that Onderstepoort should be freed from the Agricultural Department and should work out various problems by research and instruct others about their research so that the country can have the full benefit of it. I hope the Minister will consider this plea. I know that many of our officials take the’ same view as we do. Dr. Du Toit is too valuable a man to be bound by red tape and civil service regulations. He should have a free hand atOnderstepoort like Dr. Koch had in his time, and then by educating Government officials the agricultural industry will get the full benefit of all their research and achievements. As soon as you get the throttling influence of the department—the red tape and civil service regulations, we don’t get the results we should expect from Onderstepoort—I am not saying it is only the Agricultural Department, it applies to other departments too, so much of the valuable work done in research institutions like this does not become available to the people who require it most. I hope, Mr. Speaker the Minister will seriously consider these representations we made. The hon. member for Newcastle (Mr. Robertson) has pressed it too, and I hope hon. members on the Opposition benches will also help us to press for this plea we have put for the agricultural industry as a whole, and especially for the Veterinary Division that should not be a part of Onderstepoort, but should be able to get the benefit of its valuable research work.

I must admit that I was pleasantly surprised by the introduction of this Scientific Research Council Bill, For our farmers and the farming industry it will certainly be of inestimable value and in this respect I want to emphasise a few points. I do not want to keep the House very long, but when talking of research work you are dealing with a subject which is of the greatest importance to our farmers. To them it is of very great interest because the farmers today are dealing with many agricultural articles which they produce and in connection with which the production costs have not even been determined. On the other hand you have your consumer who is dissatisfied because he has to pay a certain price for the farmers’ produce and consequently you hear the assertion that the farmer is asking too much. If the Research Council were to investigate what the actual production costs of each product are, the consumer will also be able to realise what is a fair price and the friction between producer and consumer will diminish. This will moreover lead to a stabilisation of the farming industry, for every farmer will then know whether it will pay him to produce a certain thing or not. Furthermore much can be done to investigate the best methods for producing an article as cheaply as possible so that the consumer will be able to buy it at the cheapest price and so that it may be able to compete against products of other countries. In the past we exported thousands of bags of mealies and we exported cheese and butter whereas a section of our population were in want of those products. If this matter is properly investigated, then I am convinced that we will no longer export mealies overseas to feed cows and pigs and poultry in other countries which will in turn produce dairy products and eggs to compete against the products of our own country. We can process and use our products for the benefit of our own country, and in the interests of producers and consumers. Take for instance our dairy industry. For nearly. 18 months we have been trying to determine what it actually costs to produce a gallon of milk. On a previous occasion I got up in this House to point to the unsatisfactory state of affairs in regard to our dairy industry. The dairy industry is going to rack and ruin whilst the investigation is taking place. They cannot determine the price. The Department of Agriculture does not know what the production price is. There is laxity and neglect on their part as far as the agricultural industry is concerned. In connection with this research council I furthermore want to stress the importance of the cultivation of the right types of grass. How can we improve our veld so that its carrying capacity may increase and we may be able to keep more animals on one morgen? The cultivation of grasses is of the utmost importance. Furthermore there is the question of the cultivation of grasses and other plants for the combating of soil erosion. Lately we have heard much about the combating of erosion and that steps will be taken in this connection but I am convinced that if the experts would give more attention to the question of what kind of vegetation should be encouraged in order to stop soil erosion, we would obtain excellent results and it would be a much cheaper method. Another aspect is the eradication of noxious weeds. I want to put special emphasis on this point and I hope that the Acting Prime Minister will not lose sight of this aspect when he appoints the Council, namely the eradication of noxious weeds. I just want to mention one, viz. the with-weed. Our agricultural schools have for many years devoted their attention to it, but up till now they shrug their shoulders and can do nothing about it, they can give no advice. In my constituency several thousand morgen of the best land have already been spoiled by weeds. The position is particularly bad in the native > areas. As a coloured man told me once, the less you touch it the less it spreads. Every root which is draggedaround when you work the land by meansof the harrow or plough, spreads it. Nothingwe have tried so far helps to eradicate it.To the farmers this is a nightmare, forit even spreads through the wheat seed.Up till now there has been no restrictionon or no prohibition of the sale of seedwhich may spread this dangerous weed andonce it has taken root on your farm itgoes down into the soil as much as fouror five feet and it is impossible to eradicateit if we cannot make use of certainchemicals. We do not know what to doabout it. Then I want to mention thedestructive insects which our farmers haveto deal with. I mention as instances thecalander, the “ertvlooi” and the wheat bug.Those insects cause damage to our agricul-tural industry amounting to millions ofpounds. Last year in the Free State alone£2,000,000 of damage was suffered becausethe entire wheat crop was destroyed bythose insects and especially by the wheatbug. The Department of Agriculture can-not tell us what to do in order to combatthis pest. We have to sit there with foldedhands and see how our crops are beingdestroyed. If only a solution could befound for that problem, the agriculturalindustry would benefit tremendously andmillions of pounds would be saved. FinallyI want to say that research work should alsobe undertaken by means of research stations.I do not say so because it happens to bemy constituency but we for instance havean agricultural school, a domestic scienceschool and a technical college and it isof the utmost importance that we shouldalso have a research station there so thatthese matters can be investigated. I hopethat research will not be limited to industriesbut will also be extended to agriculture.The farmers are faced with droughts anddisasters and they should be assisted intheir fight against those pests in order tomake agriculture a better paying proposition.

I must congratulate theMinister in bringing in this Bill. I cannothelp but think it will have far-reachingconsequences, because once research is takenup seriously there are so many differentpoints of view that can be thought out, so many different things can be discoveredand so many disqualifications, you mightcall them, in the country may be removed.One point I should like to bring up thatI do not think has been mentioned so farin this debate is in regard to weatherresearch. I do not think this country hasgone far enough in regard to that matter, although it has vast implications. Some25 years ago this question was raised promi-nently in the Press, but then it was allowedto drop. At that time we felt that ifmeteorological stations could be establishedsomewhere near the Antarctic Continent very great results might ensue. We felt, for instance, that our winds and our weather generally might then be investigated in such a way that we would be enabled to foretell many months ahead what was likely to happen in the future. We found, for instance, that our prevailing south-east winds were connected in some way with the monsoons in India and also with the prevailing winds in Western Australia. We found too our Cape coast current varies somewhat; sometimes it strikes as far east as Knysna Heads, and at other times it strikes far to the west and comes past the Cape of Good Hope. We find that current has a great bearing on the weather round about the Cape Peninsula and also in other parts of the country. We find, for instance, that if that current is cold in rhe early stages of the year, in very early spring it betokens that icebergs may have been set adrift from the ice-pack, and this creates very cold and possibly dry weather here. Some years ago a plant was put on Tristan da Cunha, which I do not think was sufficiently far to the south for proper investigation, but a man was put there who was not sufficiently conversant with what he should have done, and after a couple of years the data he collected was found to be of little value. After that faith in this idea has continued, and people have considered Kerguelen Island and even the South Shetlands, while the Antarctic Continent itself has been spoken of as a site for a station. Data from all these places if collected over a period of some years might prove of inestimable value. It has been found, for instance, that icebergs have a great bearing on climatic conditions in South Africa. In the Antarctic volcanic disturbances very often cause these icebergs to be set adrift before they might normally be separated from the ice-pack, before the weather warms up enough to set them afloat. When this occurs you get this very cold weather. If this information could be correlated in some way it might be possible to predict probable weather conditions throughout the continent. Besides that we feel these icebergs may have some bearing on the sand found in such volumes around the coast. It is a singular thing that when there are extra high tides we have these sand deposits around the coast, though not always at the same place, and sometimes along parts of the coast where these sand deposits are least expected. Some people think some action may be going on far away to the south, and this rapid Cape coast current may cause the sand to remain in precipitation and be brought to our coast. Ten years ago when the Woodstock Municipality was still in being one of their principal sources of revenue was the sale of sand from the beach. Many thousands of loads of sand were sent to buildings in the Cape Peninsula, and yet during every spring tide the sand which had been removed was replaced and the holes were refilled by fresh sand deposited by the current. We cannot quite understand the process, and yet marine engineers have told me that this sand deposit is a great source of worry to them in connection with the dockyards.

Business suspended at 12.45 p.m. and resumed at 2.20 p.m.

As I was saying before the adjournment, the peculiar thing about that is that I was told by the late Colonel Nicol who was the Harbour Engineer that he noticed that when the docks at Simonstown was constructed there was sand on the beach near what is known as Fisheries Bay, near Kalk Bay, but it began to disappear. On another occasion, when the railways made a concrete abutment near Muizenburg station to protect the permanent way, rocks which had not appeared before suddenly appeared through the sand.

Did the rocks come up or did the sand go down?

Naturally the sand disappeared. One could not possibly control the movements of sand. I do not suggest that any amount of research could do anything of that kind, but if one knows the reason why certain things happen the harbours and other things might be so constructed that there would be no detrimental effect due to sand. With regard to weather, if these meteorological stations could be so arranged that there could be co-ordination between Australia, India and South Africa, it may be possible to foretell weather for quite a considerable period beforehand, which would be of inestimable value to farmers, to the railways, to travellers, etc., and it might also help us very considerably with regard to the migratory habits of birds and fishes, because there seems to be no doubt that the weather, currents and winds are all related in some fashion, and if one is able to understand the reason why, it might assist this country very considerably indeed.

I associate myself with this Bill. I am glad about the prospect of us obtaining a Scientific Research Council and I realise that under modern conditions it is practically impossible for any country to compete with other countries unless it possesses such a Scientific Research Council which can go into all the aspects of our vital problems. I want to confine my remarks to the farming industry. Our great difficulty in South Africa is that our agricultural production is so variable—one year there is an over-production and the next year there is a shortage. If we have such a council which can investigate these problems and can to some extent eliminate this uncertainty it will not only benefit the farmers but also the consumers. Before the war we had a surplus of products such as mealies and a subsidy had to come out of the pockets of the taxpayers in order to dump mealies on the overseas markets. At the moment there is actually a shortage and we have to import mealies. If the causes which make production so variable can to a large extent be neutralised and if pests such as caterpillars which bring down the production, can be combated efficiently, the position can be much improved. On the 2nd of February I put the following question to the Minister of Agriculture—

I said already that before the war we had to export mealies to the European market with a subsidy coming out of the pockets of the ordinary taxpayer. Owing to the war there is now a shortage of mealies and the Government therefore does not possess the necessary opportunity to have investigations made of how we should handle our mealies so that there will not be another surplus, by means of processing it in by-products. What was, however, the reply of the Government—

1. (2) I learn from the Board that the reply is in the negative, since no maize can, under the present condition of short supplies, be made available for new industries and new uses. The matter is however being kept in mind by the Board.

Just imagine, the reply by the Government why no tests are being conducted was that at present there are no surplus mealies. I think that this is a very serious mistake, for that is exactly the time when investigations should be made. I hope that the proposed council will now conduct these investigations, for the aim should be to prevent a surplus. The other question was whether the Minister would encourage such tests and the reply thereto was—

The reason mentioned under (2) was that at present there is a shortage of mealies and that therefore mealies cannot be made available for new industries at the present moment, as I mentioned before. I hope that once this scientific research council has been established, it will not follow such a shortsighted policy but that its chief aim will be to protect us against a possible overproduction. Mealies are one of our most important products, at least as far as the Free State is concerned, but not only the Free State, for our native population of approximately eight millions is also dependent on mealies. There are several pests such as caterpillars and similar things which hamper our mealie production and all these things should be investigated by the Mealie Control Board. I also want to express the hope that this council will apply itself more especially to research in connection with our indigenous plants, especially as far as fodder plants are concerned. We have quite a number of plants which are used for fodder purposes but I hope that this council will see fit to investigate our own indigenous plants and to promote their cultivation so that we will be able to use them for fodder. Every area has its own particular vegetation. As far as the North-Western Free State, which I represent, and the sandy areas around it are concerned we find there a certain kind of grass possessing useful qualities which might be investigated in order to make it a valuable product. The grass I have in mind is quick grass. In some parts it may be considered a weed, especially as far as mealie production is concerned. Where mealies are grown on a large scale the quick grass has to be exterminated. Because it is such a hardy grass and grows so well, I consider it to possess valuable properties. It is a grass which may be very suitable for our country’s varying conditions, our different climatical conditions, a grass which can maintain itself especially in those parts where considerable ploughing takes place and where the ordinary “rooigras” (Themeda Forskalii) and other grasses have practically disappeared. What did survive is the quick grass. It is a creeping grass, grows quickly and has a tremendous root system, thick roots which penetrate the soil and develop an enormous quantity of roots. In those roots the necessary water and nourishment are absorbed and stored during the rainy season and then after the winter when the time arrives for ploughing to take place in those parts that grass is of great value. During summer we usually have good rains but during the first few months after the winter the other grasses do not grow, and then we have our quick grass on which the cattle can thrive because by its enormous root system it has absorbed the necessary nourishment during summer to enable it to sprout when we have no rains and to provide food for animals. When the veld is lying fallow for a few years the grass grows enormously and spreads remarkably and forms humus by its root system with the result that if you then plant mealies there a little bit of manure makes the mealies grow very well. Its main property is that it does not grow above the soil but under the soil so that it cannot wash away, and the roots remain in the soil and can serve as mnaure. I also think that that grass might be used to combat soil erosion and especially in the areas to which I refer it can form a natural protection against soil erosion. If it were not for the quick grass those parts might to a large extent have become a desert already. As far as its root system is concerned, it grows especially well in sandy parts and it binds the soil in a very short time. In my opinion, however, its most important quality is that it might be called hunger grass. What I mean by that is that it has the property after receiving a little fertiliser which the farmer may plough in when he wants to cultivate the soil, to improve tremendously in value in a very short time. Before large-scale ploughing took place in those parts we had a lot of splenic fever but since we have had large-scale ploughing there splenic fever has practically disappeared. One of the reasons to which I ascribe that is that the farmers in recent years have applied superphosphate to the soil with the result that this hunger grass has absorbed the phosphate and that its quality has improved as a result. Now that grass is a protection for the animals against starvation. I think research is necessary to find out whether there is any truth in the claims the farmers there make for it and to see whether quick grass may not be improved to such an extent that one day it may achieve the reputation, at least in those sandy parts, of being one of the best fodder crops. It might even be cultivated and the question might be investigated whether it is not possible to develop it further into a grass growing strongly above the soil so that it might produce large quantities of hay. From experience I can state that in 1933 during the severe drought which then attacked our country I myself and many other farmers, when there was no grass left for the animals to eat, took a single furrow plough and inspanned 18 oxen and ploughed and harrowed out the roots of the quick grass; we then took a number of natives to beat the sand off those roots and thereafter the cattle lived on the lands from those roots. This shows the excellent qualities of this tremendous root system and its capacity to store a great deal of nourishment and its extensive possibilities. I am convinced that if this research council were to investigate the quick grass, in future it might possibly prove to be a particularly valuable grass in South Africa and might be cultivated on a large scale.

I wish to support what has been said by the hon. members for Cape Eastern (Mrs. Ballinger) and Berea (Mr. Sullivan) as to the importance of developing that aspect of social economic study that bears most upon the portion of the human family we have in South Africa. It seems to me we have a very wide sphere in many branches of study pertaining to that subject. Let me mention one branch that of native philology which has been sadly neglected. For many years I have been interested in the progress of the study of the languages of the native people, and probably the most devoted student we ever had was Dr. Bleek, who worked in this city as far back as 1869. He wrote a comparative grammar of the African Bantu languages, which opens up a greater knowledge and a greater field of study than has been comprehended in that sphere by any student since that time. One might almost say that subsequent students have failed very largely to follow in his footsteps. But I want to mention that his work was greatly appreciated far beyond the confines of South Africa. When many years later his daughter was found to be in straitened circumstances the then government of the United Kingdom decided to award her a pension from the civil list in recognition of the work that had been carried out by her distinguished father in this country. We, I think, would be almost incapable of that spirit of appreciation. The whole of our policy towards scientific knowledge is coming perilously near to the attitude that brains exist in South Africa only. We seem disposed to put a ring fence round this country and say, “No interlopers permitted”. But I venture to hope the distinguished scholar who is at the head of the Government at the present moment will entirely dissent from such a view as that, that he will in any case endeavour to break down any such barrier. I devoutly hope the new development that seems to be connoted by this Bill, the appointment of a scientific research council, will not be confined to civil servants who have lived three years in South Africa, because then you automatically reject everybody from outside. I hope a wiser policy will be followed and advantage taken of the provision in the Public Service Act for the appointment, if necessary, of men with special qualifications not bound by that restriction. I want to refer briefly to the great value of the study of languages in so far as the development of our native people are concerned. Nothing so far as I am able to tell has ever been done by the Union Government itself to promote or encourage such studies. The universities have made some effort. Neighbouring governments have done quite a good deal. The Southern Rhodesia Government have over a long course of years stimulated study and encouraged those who have devoted time and money to the study of native languages, to the comparison of one dialect with another and generally to interest the public in an intelligent and humane attitude towards the native people. As I have said, quite a fair amount of work has been done in Rhodesia to encourage these studies. There is a man today from Rhodesia who is probably as well equipped as any man in South Africa to deal with the orderly research of questions of this kind. He has written several books bearing on language study, and, having earned his pension, he is at this moment working in a temporary position under one of the Protectorate administrations. I hope it will be the function of our new scientific research council to seek out such men and make use of their services in a way which will be lasting and permanent, so that those who come after them may have the advantage of what they have learnt. I hope we shall not have any niggardly policy in regard to men of that kind. I trust that the reward of their years of study will be a sufficient one, and that some effort will be made to note the presence of these men still amongst us, and that their abilities will be duly recognised and rewarded by this council.

Natives as well.

I think there are a large number of people amongst the native population coming on and whose attainments are considerable not only in the study of languages but who are developing as students in other branches, and they should be encouraged. They work amongst people who are very poor and who have not got much with which to reward anybody. I hope the presence of these students will be made known to the council which is to be set up. A great deal has been said during this debate about the position of veterinary science in this country and a great deal of eulogium has been expended on Onderstepoort. I think Onderstepoort has suffered in recent years in being subordinated very largely to the Department of Agriculture. I look upon Dr. Du Toit as one who in his own right should have been given a wider control over the future of Onderstepoort than he has today because of the autocracy of the Secretary for Agriculture. If I understand the position correctly he has been largely subordinated to the official who holds the position of Secretary for Agriculture, even in his professional capacity, and his professional capacity is very great. I do not go as far as the hon. member for Cape Town (Gardens) (Dr. L. P. Bosman) in acclaiming the talents of Dr. Du Toit almost with bated breath. I do not think Dr. Du Toit, or his greatest admirers, could enumerate any considerable number of discoveries he has made that rank as discoveries of the highest grade in the field of scientific veterinary knowledge. On the other hand, there are more humble workers, scientific research men, who have made outstanding discoveries and who have been ignored by the Union authorities for the best part of 20 or 30 years. I speak of men like Colonel Watkins Pitchford C.M.G. who, for many years, was in charge of the research work at Allerton, a modest place which in the thirteen years of its life only cost the then government a sum which did not exceed £50,000, though as the income realised was about £1,500 a year at the end the nett cost was something like £30,000 for the thirteen years. I wish to enumerate some of the discoveries that were made during that period, and they are discoveries that will be recognised among the best ever made in this country in relation to the salvation of the cattle and horses and other animals affected.

It always has been the Cinderella.

The hon. member says the province will always be the Cinderella That probably is the role it is condemned to. But compared with the amount of £30,000 over a period of 13 years we find that the sum of £7,058,000 has been spent on Onderstepoort since Union. I have been in a position to visit some other schools of veterinary science and I venture to say that at Lahore in India you will find a school that will compare favourably with Onderstepoort. When you come to consider the very high claims made for Onderstepoort one would like to know upon what they are founded. The hon. member for Wolmaransstad (Gen. Kemp), when he was Minister of Agriculture, for instance, said—

I think that somewhat overstates the case. Onderstepoort has magnificent buildings which together with staff and maintenance have cost South Africa, as I have said some £7,000,000. It was given a grant by the Empire Marketing Board to establish a library, and the first grant of £10,000 was followed by a further grant of £11,000. These were friendly gestures made whilst the Empire Marketing Board was functioning. Unfortunately, owing to the failure of the Dominions to support it, that board died a natural death. Let us examine the relative records of Allerton, the modest research station we have in the province of Natal, and Onderstepoort. When rinderpest broke out, a scourge that decimated something like 200,000,000 head of cattle in Europe, largely in Russia, a scourge that was so devastating that the then Czar’s government offered a reward of many thousands of roubles to the discoverer of a remedy, Prof. Koch was brought from Germany at a fee of £10,000 to study the disease in this country. He evolved a system of inoculation that was by no means a perfect remedy, and it was left in time for Col. Watkins Pitchford to discover, at Allerton, a preventive inoculation by a serum discovered by himself which became completely effective in stopping the further spread of the disease. Had that discovery not been barred by the effluxion of time he would, by every specification that was given in the offer of the Russian Government, have earned the reward which had been offered for an effective cure. There were discoveries at Allerton, too, in regard to inoculation for pleuro-pneumonia, or lung sickness, at that time a very devastating disease; in the days of my childhood it certainly was a dread disease. There were discoveries made by Col. Watkins Pitchford in connection with a preventive inoculation against that devastating disease. At Allerton too Col. Pitchford made discoveries for the treatment of horse sickness and glanders, and further discoveries for the inoculation ’of red water and blue tongue. All those discoveries were the work at that early stage of the Allerton research station, at that time under the direction of Col. Pitchford. Subsequently, Sir, Col. Pitchford evolved a system of’ preparing nutritious meat foods during the first Great War. He was at that time Director of Food Production at the War Office, and the process he evolved was entirely successful. Had it been adopted when it was brought before this House in 1925 it would have gone very far indeed by now to have helped to solve the problem of soil erosion in the native areas and of providing soluble and nourishing foods for famine countries. It aimed at making use in a beneficial and payable way of the large herds that the natives had, and which they still have, and we should today have been in a position to have relieved a tremendous amount of starvation in famine stricken countries with the nutritious foods that would have been produced. Dr. Juritz whose lamented death was only recorded a few days ago, reported on the process evolved by Col. Pitchford in enthusiastic terms. He said he had tested the products sent for his examination and, as Sir Thomas Smartt on his behalf said in this House, his report was entirely in favour of the adoption of the Pitchford process. There were members on both sides of the House who were strong supporters of the process being adopted by the Government as a means of helping to solve the difficulty of the over-stocking of native areas with stock of an inferior kind. The hon. member for George (Mr. Werth) was one who spoke enthusiastically when that matter was introduced in the House. Other hon. members, who unfortunately are no longer with us, were equally enthusiastic as to the possibilities of such a magnificent discovery. I hope whatever is to be done will in no way discourage but will promote the adoption of discoveries of that kind in this country, and their application to the use for which they are intended. I believe a great deal of harm has been done by the insular attitude which public servants in this country have adopted towards men who have not been produced by their own methods or their own schools, men who are nevertheless exceedingly able and well qualified for the work they have been able to do. I believe we should do well not to give tremendously autocratic powers to this council but to equip it for the work which is intended to be done, and we should see to it we do not set up in this country the idea that brains only exist amongst South Africans. I think a needed corrective to that sort of idea was given on one occasion by a Scotsman who came to this country. He was a barrister and he was speaking of the attitude which was evinced towards anything that came from overseas, and he said in his broad dialect: “Colonials are the most ignorant folk alive and they have enough brass to start a foundry.” It may have been a very crude remark but it had a tonic effect, and I think it is a remark that all South Africans—and I am one of them—would do well to remember from time to time. There is altogether too much autocracy in the public service, and the public servant has come to be feared. The whole of his record during this war has been one which made people shudder at his getting unlimited power in this country. I hope, whatever the intention of the Minister or the Prime Minister may be in regard to this matter, we shall find ourselves in regard to the scientific future of this country not completely in the hands of the public servants we have now. We should fear for the future of the work they are going to perform if we give them full rein and no sort of restriction or limitation of the autocratic powers they enjoy in connection with departmental and public questions.

Today food is one of the articles for which there is the greatest demand in the whole world and South Africa, if care is taken in the production of its food, is in the fortunate position that it is able to improve its food supply and can contribute in the feeding of starving peoples and at the same time make proper provision for its own population. In connection with this Bill I want to confine myself to a few matters which are of interest to the farming industry. First of all I want to say how disappointed we all and especially the cattle farmers were that capable officials were dismissed although they could have done much for this research work and were already busy with it. I want to mention foot and mouth disease. Who can tell us how many animals die every year as a result of this disease? There are many theories in connection with it; some people say it is transmitted by game whereas others maintain that this is not the case. Nothing definite is known about it. Much research work is still required to find an effective means of exterminating foot and mouth disease. Now I come to a second disease, namely East Coast fever. We cannot imagine how many animals have already been shot and how many have died from the disease itself, and neither can we realise how much it costs the country to employ all these dipping inspectors. In spite of that we must at this stage come to the conclusion that dipping has not given the results which were expected from it. Then there is another problem, the blowfly pest. Nobody realises how much damage farmers suffer from it as large numbers of sheep are killed by it. That means a great loss in wool. Even today no efficient remedy against the blowfly has yet been detected. Those sheep give us meat and we use their skins and their wool. It is absolutely essential that we should devote more attention to research work without delay in order to combat these diseases and pests. One could mention a large number of other problems, for instance the mealie stalk borer. It is impossible to calculate how much money is wasted in valuable seed and fertiliser and labour by the replanting of our lands time and again because the borers have destroyed the mealies. Serious attention should be given to this matter. The farmers become discouraged and find it impossible to replant their lands three or four times and to pay for the expensive fertiliser—and still, after all these years, an effective remedy for the combating of these pests has not yet been found. We have other pests too, such as the tick pest which is increasing year by year. If we were to go through a list of the cattle diseases in our country we would find out that instead of the number of those diseases decreasing it is increasing. For that reason it is essential that research work should be undertaken to fight those diseases. I now come to another point I want to mention, namely weeds. Nobody can estimate how much damage is done by weeds, how much cattle and labour is wasted on account of it and in spite of that it is increasing every year. For that reason I want to stress that if a scheme is devised for doing research work account should be taken of the various areas. I consider that Frankfort is pre-eminently a place where an experimental farm might be established to do research work. In the future there will be a large settlement at the Vaaldam and it will be necessary to have ah experimental farm there in order to train men there for settlement work, and to conduct research work in connection with the pests and difficulties of that particular area. We owemuch to a man like Dr. Douw Steyn for the valuable research work he did in connection with the poisonous algae and the means of combating it. We know what that has meant to our farmers. They suffered tremendous damage as the result of that poisonous plant and Dr. Steyn’s research work has brought relief and has now enabled us to combat that pest. For that reason I want to give the Minister the assurance that any research done along those lines will be heartily welcomed by us.

I would not have taken part in this debate but for a few points which I would like to bring to the attention of the Acting Prime Minister. A very wide field has been covered by this discussion, from native languages to anything under the sun. I just want to say that we are very proud of an institution like Onderstepoort where very valuable discoveries have already been made. We are very proud to know that we possess such an institution and when the farmer makes a discovery during his practical farming operations, he can always send it to Onderstepoort so that it may be further investigated by the scientists there. We are reminded of certain remedies discovered by the farmers themselves and which were sent to Onderste-poort where they improved on it. Very good remedies have been detected to fight diseases and other things. This morning we heard what already has been achieved, for instance in regard to the sugar industry. We are very proud of that. There is, however, one matter which we want to bring to the attention of the Minister and that is that our wool farmers have for years been voluntarily contributing a certain amount for research work. The wool industry no doubt is the largest industry in our country. I understand that wool farmers are contributing 1s. per bale, and when I heard about it last the amount was already standing at £70,000 or £80,000. We should like to hear from the Minister what the amount now is and what they intend doing with.it. Is any research work being done in connection therewith? We consider the wool industry to be our largest industry. It is an industry which can do an immeasurable amount of good for the country if we have proper research, and we should like to know whether matters have now come to a stop and whether this money is still being collected.

That is a question which you should put to the Minister of Agriculture and not to me.

But it concerns research work.

Yes, but we are not at present discussing the Agricultural Vote.

But that fund was established for research work. The Minister cannot deny that. On another occasion I may perhaps be able to hear what the amount is and what the intention is to do with the money. Furthermore I want to stress also what was said by the last speaker in connection with the blowfly. If there is anything causing a great amount of damage in this country then it is the blowfly, and I am afraid that it is not receiving sufficient attention. I am afraid that investigations are not carried out far enough to find an effective remedy to combat that pest. Various remedies have already been invented by the farmers themselves and I am afraid that on the part of the Government not sufficient attention was given to some of these remedies. We want to ask the Government to try all those remedies which have already been invented by farmers in their practical farming activities. Our experts should find out whether they cannot improve on those methods so that our farming difficulties may be solved.

In the first place, I want to express my thanks for the good reception this Bill has had in all parts of the House. The hon. member for Ceres (Dr. Stals) has described it as one of the most fruitful Bills of the Session. I think he is right, and I believe the future will prove he is right. He also said this Bill does not leave any room for Party differences. I believe the debate was conducted in that spirit. It is true indeed that a few members endeavoured even in this Bill to put Party profit ….

You mean Party prejudice.

No, I mean that the hon. member for Beaufort West (Mr. Louw) tried perhaps to put Party profit in the foreground, but I do not think he really meant it and I shall leave the matter there. The hon. member for Ceres (Dr. Stals) emphasised four points, and I want briefly to refer to those points. In the first place he expressed the hope that the body we shall establish will be a genuine Afrikaans national institution. I would rather put it as the hon. member for Wonderboom (Mr. Nel) put it—a genuine South African institution. If the hon. member will accept that description I am in agreement with him. I have already, in my introductory speech, referred to the necessity for a South African spirit in research work in our country, and I emphasised what has already been done during the past 30 or 40 years to allow a South African outlook to permeate our research work. I also referred to South African research problems, and everything is moving in the direction to which the hon. member for Wonderboom referred. I also empha sised this point, that although we regard this matter in the first place from the South African point of view we do not forget that here in South Africa we can make a contribution of considerable value to the outside world, and, moreover, we want to do so, just as we shall derive benefit from research carried out in other countries, and the work of scientists of those countries will also be to the advantage of our country. There are many matters in regard to which South Africa has really an excellent jumping off place for research, and one of them is research in connection with anthropology. Much light has already been thrown on this department of research by South Africa. Then my hon. friend mentioned a second point. He asked whether this body would in the first place be co-ordinating. Yes, that is perfectly correct. I also emphasised that in my inductory remarks. Considerable research work is being performed in this country and that work should be coordinated; and also as far as the future is concerned., seeing we anticipate an expansion of research work, we would like to have the assurance there will be no dissipation of forces, but that there will be co-operation as the result of which the best work may be done. That projected body will however not only be co-ordinating and stimulating in its work but it will play an active part. It will itself institute research activities. We expect that from them. Then he expressed the hope that this body would not degenerate into a routine organisation. The best reply to that is the fact that at the head of this organisation will be Dr. Schonland, who is already the founder of the Geophysical Institute in Johannesburg, which far from being a routine institution is an institution permeated with the true spirit of research. That will also apply to this institution.

I mean that the hands of the research workers should not be tied.

My hon. friend will appreciate that is just the direction in which we are working. We are not making this institution a department of the State, but we are establishing it as a special body. We will accord it the greatest measure of freedom, the desirability of which I myself emphasised in my introductory speech. He further asked what will be the basis of our financial support of the institution. I cannot at present indicate a permanent basis. Funds, at the commencement at any rate, will principally come from the State. We cannot calculate the State’s subsidy, as is done at the moment in the case of the universities, on a basis of what the institution receives from other bodies. At the commencement it will probably receive little, although we hope later it will receive a considerable amount. We cannot lay down any fixed basis at the moment and we shall make provision according to the needs and the development of those needs. I want to give the assurance that we are in real earnest with this organisation and that we shall make the fullest possible use of this step, and my hon. friend need not be worried over the financial provision that will be made. The hon. member for Durban (Berea) (Mr. Sullivan) also touched on that aspect of the matter, and he mentioned figures regarding the financial provision that is made by other countries. I find it difficult to gain a proper realisation of the value of figures of that nature, because usually provision is made for research under various heads and not under one head. I have already referred to the tendency that always exists to refer only to the provision that is made on the estimates under the Union Education Vote, and then to say: Look, this is all that South Africa is doing for research work, and look at what is being done by other countries. That, of course, is entirely wrong. Provision is made in our country as well under various other heads.

In Canada everything is not provided by the State.

The hon. member apparently did not refer only to State expenditure. That alters the matter. We must, however, be careful when we draw conclusions from figures that appear on the estimates of a particular country. The hon. member for Wonderboom (Mr. Nel) referred to the question of publication. I can give him the assurance that this will be one of the purposes of the institution. It is obvious that research is incomplete until the reports of it are made properly available to the public. It will be part of the activities of this institution to make provision for that.

†I refer now to one or two other points which were made. I will not attempt to cover the whole field of the debate. We have had a large number of very interesting and if I may say so very useful speeches, but sometimes the debate seemed to be taking the character of a scientific encyclopaedia. I am not encyclopaedic enough to be able to follow it into all its nooks and crannies, but I would express appreciation of the nature of the contributions made, and the fact that I do not reply to them all does not mean that they are not appreciated. The hon. member for Vereeniging (Lt.-Col. Rood) referred to the question of possible overlapping between the work of the council we propose to set up here and the Standards Council set up under the Standards Bill. I think the hon. member for Gezina (Dr. Swanepoel) also referred to that. In fact, I can assure him that there will be no overlapping. The two Bills were carefully considered in that respect. Clause 4 (d) will make the Research Council responsible for the provision of facilities for testing and calibrating instruments. The Standards Bill makes the Standards Council responsible for arranging for these facilities. If they are not specially provided, it must also provide them. That means in effect, that these two bodies will have to decide between themselves which types of testing should be undertaken by which. In actual practice it means that testing of a bulk or routine nature will be undertaken by the Standards Bureau. Testing which is of a special nature will be undertaken by the body which has more to do with research. So in that and in other respects there is dovetailing of activities and any overlapping there may have been has been fully safeguarded by the fact that the provisions of this Bill will be dealt with by the Prime Minister and a sub-committee of the Cabinet of which the Minister of Economic Development will be a member. There will therefore be little danger of overlapping, and indeed, the two Bills have been so drafted as to ensure that such overlapping will be avoided. The hon. member for Yeoville (Dr. Gluckman) and the hon. member for Beaufort West (Mr. Louw) also referred to the question of medical research. May I just say briefly, as they are not here, that medical research will quite definitely fall within the scope of this Research Council. It will be, indeed, an important field of its activities. It may be that eventually in this country, as in other countries, there will eventuate a special Medical Research Council, but the time for that has not yet come and in the meantime medical research will be a function of this Council. An important point was raised by the hon. member for Cape Eastern (Mrs. Ballinger), followed by the members for Durban (Berea) (Mr. Sullivan), Zululand (Mr. Morris) and Pinetown (Mr. Marwick) in regard to the limitation of the scope of the proposed council so as to exclude social and economic research. The hon. member for Cape Eastern said she was disappointed with that exclusion. Quite frankly, so was I, in the first instance. I also originally hoped that within the scope of this machinery would be set up some provision for social and economic research, but it became clear to me, when I went into the matter, that if we make the field as comprehensive as that, it would become too big to be attended to by one directing official and by one council. Actually, as the hon. member for Stellenbosch (Dr. Bremer) pointed out, the success of the new organisation will depend primarily on the one directing officer. If he is overburdened the whole thing will fail, and I think therefore we should be careful lest we put upon him functions which carry with them the danger of his being so overburdened. Obviously you cannot find any one man whose knowledge or interest covers the whole field of human activity, and therefore it seems to me that we must face that position and regard this as an organisation for scientific and industrial research and in respect of social and economic research continue to make use of those facilities which we have, the Bureau of Educational and Social Research in the Education Department, the Social and Planning Council and the contracted Research Grant Board, and make use of these, while at the same time exploring the possibility of making another approach. Indeed, we are already going into the question of the possibility of such an approach. I have realised its importance. At the same time it should be noted that in this Bill we do not exclude the human aspects of industrial research. They were referred to by the hon. member for Cape Eastern and others and they will fall to be dealt with as part of industrial research and are already being so dealt with by the Health Research Institute at the Rhodes University College. In that connection I want to refer to what the hon. member for Pinetown said about research in the native languages and to say that we in fact have done and still do quite a good deal in that direction. He referred to Dr. Bleek, a very eminent student. There are studies carried on in native languages by the universities today by men like Professor Doake in Johannesburg and Professor Lestrade in Cape Town, men who may be described as having international reputations, who have done much in this field, and quite á lot has been done to help by the Research Grant Board with Government money. I think my hon. friend may be assured that that aspect is not being overlooked. Some hon. members, more especially for Durban (Berea) (Mr. J. R. Sullivan) and Gardens (Dr. L. P. Bosman) referred to the position of the universities in relation to research. May I point out—I think both tended to overlook this point—that the universities’ function in relation to research is twofold. It not merely has to set in motion research but it also has to train research workers who will be able to go out and carry on their functions outside the university; and while perhaps for the reasons given the universities do not do as much as they might have in the actual output of research done within their own walls they have not been entirely unsuccessful, indeed, they have obtained a considerable measure of success in the training of research workers. They should get all the credit for that. There were some points raised by hon. members which were covered by my introductory speech. The hon. member for Newcastle (Mr. Robertson) spoke about housing. In introducing the Bill I referred to the steps taken to set up a Housing Research Institute. The hon. member for Berea referred to the relationship between research and industry. I refer him to my introductory remarks on the desirability of industry being permeated with the spirit of research. The hon. member for Zululand referred to the part played by private enterprise in research. I am glad he has emphasised what the sugar industry has done. That is also a matter to which although only in passing I referred in my introductory remarks. Then the hon. members for Drakensberg (Mr. Abrahamson) and Newcastle dealt with the position of veterinary and agricultural research. This Bill leaves the matter entirely open. It indicates that the council will deal with such research matters as the Minister may assign to it. I did, however, indicate in my introductory remarks that in the first instance at least, it was not our intention that the Research Council should take over the institutions of the Department of Agriculture. But that does not mean that there will not be close co-operation and co-ordination of activities. Actually it seemed to me that the points that the hon. member for Drakensberg (Mr. Abrahamson) emphasised were mainly points in regard to departmental machinery—the bringing of the results of research from the Research Institute to the farmer. That is a departmental matter rather than a matter for a Research Council, and it does not seem to me that that particular aspect of the matter would be helped very much by those activities being taken over right from the start by this particular council. Then just one more point. The hon. member for Pinetown (Mr. Marwick) was afraid that the activities of this organisation might be hamstrung by civil servants. May I repeat again that we are here creating a body corporate, not a public service department, and we are appointing at the head of this institution someone who has hitherto had no connection with the public service. I think therefore that my hon. friend’s fears can be allayed on this point. As I said earlier on, I cannot follow all the speeches that have been made in this debate and refer to every point that has been mentioned, but that does not mean a lack of appreciation on my part. I would like again to say how pleased I am that this Bill has had the reception which it has, in fact, enjoyed.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill read a second time; House to go into Committee on the Bill on 22nd May.

With leave I want to move as an unopposed motion—

I second.

Agreed to.

A few questions arise in reference to the clause as it stands, first inreference to the control that can be exercised to ensure that customs due that otherwise would have been payable are not evaded under the proposed amendment. Under Item 325 of Act No. 35 of 1944 certain articles may be imported by the State to meet State requirements, with the following proviso—

In this case the Director-General of Supplies has the right to import certain articles on behalf of the State. There can consequently be no objection to this. He, however, went further and disposed of to certain private contractors some of the articles that were imported free of duty for the purpose of being manufactured. So the question arises what supervision will be exercised over the articles that pass from the ‘hands of the Director-General of Supplies until they are again taken over by him in the interests presumably of the army. It is a question or what control is exercised, so that none of these goods will pass into the hands of private individuals or into the hands of consumers without the payment of customs dues. That is one aspect. Paragraphs (a) and (b) of sub-clause (1) deal with the administrative aspect of the same question. Now sub-clause (2) goes further. Sub-clause (2) allows that surplus stores, that were issued or sold by the Director-General of Supplies to private manufacturers to be manufactured for the requirments specified by the Director-General of Supplies, may now be sold or disposed of without payment of customs dues. Apparently there is now a surplus of these; these goods were sold or disposed of—and consequently the clause reads—

In other words, the House must now accept that in respect of some of the original goods that were imported a surplus has possibly remained over.

Subclause (2) deals only with the Director-General of Supplies.

No it is now a question of goods that were sold. Sub-clause (b) deals with surplus piecegoods. It deals with fabricated as well as unfabricated goods that are sold to private individuals, but which have not been taken back by the State and are now available for use. The presumption now is that all these goods shall be taken over again by the War Stores Disposal Board to be disposed of by them. The question is now what control existed in connection with the distribution and manufacture of goods and the acceptance of goods in order to ensure that this surplus of goods now available represents everything that was not taken over by the State and consequently could have been handed over free of customs duty. Then there is the question of control in order to ensure that when goods are disposed of they shall not be disposed of by firms or persons who receive or manufacture them, but only by the Disposal Board. Then there is the further question broached the other day by the hon. member for Gezina (Dr. Swanepoel) that these goods now being made available to the public should not be sold at improper prices. I assume these goods are now going to be made available for further distribution, and I should like to know whether steps will be taken that these distributors will not be placed in a position to make unwarranted profits to the detriment of the State. I think the Minister said in reply to a question by the hon. member for Gezina that the State will fix the prices in such a way that there will be no chance of private distributors deriving an advantage from the exempted customs dues. I should like to have a statement on this point from the Minister; and finally, I shall be glad if the Minister will give us a statement in regard to the dates mentioned in Clause 19, sub-clause (3).

When we last discussed this Bill we spoke about imported meat that competed with our own meat. I pointed out that the meat without import duties costs 1s. a lb. But with the import duties it costs 1s. 1½d. We feel that we cannot approve of the clause because it is something that runs absolutely counter to the interests of the farmer himself.

Order, order. I think the hon. member is dealing with a wrong section. Clause 18 has already been passed.

I am referring to the schedule, to Clause 19.

The schedule refers to Clause 18.

We are dealing now with the refund of the 1½d. customs duties.

No, that clause has already been passed.

May I just reply to the questions raised by the hon. member for Ceres (Dr. Stals). There were really four points. In the first place, in regard to sub-clause (1). Here we are dealing with goods imported by the Director-General of Supplies and eventually used by other persons.

Sold and disposed of.

And eventually they come into the hands of another Government department. What we seek to prevent is one department having to pay customs duties to another department.

How?

My hon. friend asks what control there is. The control is exercised by the Director-General of Supplies. He has full information in connection with all the goods and he knows what becomes of them. If it is necessary the Commissioner of Customs can examine it as far as he is concerned, but we are here dealing with goods that come into the hands of Government departments. Then in the second instance he referred to sub-clause (2). There we deal with goods that are sold by the Disposals Board to the public. Control is exercised by that Board itself.

They are not sold before theBoard sells them.

No, they are handed over to that Board for sale. They cannot be sold before the Board deals with them.

Then this is in order.

What we principally have to deal with is not goods that pass through the hands of the Director-General of Supplies. What we are concerned with here is mainly war supplies in the hands of the Defence Department. These are issued for disposal to the Disposals Board which then has the control of them. My hon. friend has asked whether there is any danger of unfair competition arising, of unreasonable profits being made. The answer is no. These goods are sold by tender, or if they are not sold by tender, the Disposals Board will, in fixing the prices, take into account the customs dues that would otherwise have been levied ….

The prices between the seller and the Control Board are controlled.

Only by the Price Controller. But the person who buys from the Disposals Board derives no benefit because no customs duties are paid on the goods. He either buys under tender or in accordance with the prices fixed after the customs dues have been taken into consideration. Consequently there is no danger. In regard to sub-clause (3) the first date is the date when the Director-General of Supplies began to dispose of goods in this way to persons who were to manufacture them, and the second date is the date on which the Disposals Board commenced to function.

Clause put and agreed to.

On the Schedule,

I am not quite clear on this point. Can I not discuss the meat question under the schedule?

No, the hon. member cannot do that. Clause 18 has already been passed.

Schedule put and agreed to.

Title put and agreed to.

House Resumed:

The CHAIRMAN reported the Bill with amendments; amendments to be considered on 22nd May.

I have already once referred to the matter in connection with Act No. 8 of 1912. It was in connection with another matter and it was not necessary for the Minister to reply. I should like to know whether some plan does not exist to go into Act No. 8 of 1912 and to see whether improvements cannot be introduced, especially in regard to the section dealing with irrigation boards. Irrigation boards were new concerns in those days, the thing really began in 1912. These boards have had to contend with many difficulties which, in my opinion, ought to be cleared up. As I say, the Act is old. I think it is time the amendments that have already been made should be contained in one Act so that they may be able to trace these things more easily. Many amendments have been made under other Acts, and people who have no special knowledge of the subject are not in a position to get them all.

The hon. member cannot argue a matter that requires legislation.

I only want to say in this connection that I feel provision ought to be made for furrows, as at the moment no provision is made for them. I am thinking, for instance of the cleaning of furrows at Kakamas. There are thousands of furrows falling into the same category and provision should be made for them where there are communal furrows not falling under boards, so that they should actually fall under boards, even boards that will not have money for the maintenance of those furrows. The Minister knows that all the owners must be in agreement in connection with such a furrow. Every man has his rights, and if there is an irrigation board improvements can be effected by a majority of votes on the board.

I wish to compliment the Minister on his irrigation policy. His has been a bold policy and a policy full of courage, and I say this because we know that he may divert the Orange River into the Eastern Province. A few days ago the hon. member for Albany (Mr. Bowker) asked whether he could get the water from the Orange River. The Minister has a plan to divert the Orange River to the Eastern Province. I maintain it is a bold policy. The Americans, as we know, do things quickly and they do big things. We are too slow. Take, for instance, the Vaal-Hartz scheme. The Vaal-Hartz scheme was under contemplation from 1888; for 40 years we dawdled and we only completed it 10 years ago. The Minister will one of these days be diverting the Orange River into the Eastern Province.

Order, order. I must rule that irrigation schemes fall under the loan estimates. The hon. member cannot discuss it under this vote.

I only want to say that I approve the Minister’s policy. The Minister is now occupied in having a new furrow taken from the Vaal-Hartz.

I think that also falls under the loan vote.

I shall mention it then under those estimates. Then I should like to know this. The Rietrivier scheme is now finished. I should like to know from the Minister what is being done; when will the returned soldiers occupy that scheme. I believe the scheme has been completed, and I should like to know what is now being done there. Has the land been cleared? I should like to know what is going on there. Then I should also like to learn about the Modder River scheme. Near the Rietrivier scheme is the Modder River—a small but old scheme, and it is peculiar that big developments have occurred recently on the Rietrivier. Development has hitherto been in connection with the Modder River. The farmers along the Modder River have no diversion dam. I should like to learn from the Minister what he is going to do in connection with this dam for the Modder River farmers. Years ago there was talk of the construction of such a dam near Celerayspoort. Those people cannot do anything unless they have a dam. There have been big developments along the Modder River. Finally, I want to ask what does the Minister intend to do in connection with the coloured population of the country? Is he going to construct an irrigation secheme for them as well? In this country not only Europeans but natives as well have irrigation lands. The native is also a farmer and an irrigator. There are about 8,000 morgen under irrigation at Vaal-Hartz belonging to the natives, but the coloured person has no irrigation works; he possesses no land. I should like to learn from the Minister what the position is, because this is an important matter. We shall haveto hand over one of the irrigation works to the coloureds. The coloureds are almost a million in number and they live in our cities. They live in three or four of our cities. We see today what is occurring in the Cape and things cannot go on like this. The coloured man himself wants to be an irrigator, and I think the time has now arrived when the Minister should think about these people, and he should either build a new scheme for them or give them one of the schemes at present under construction. In the interests of the country we must devote our attention to these people.

I should like to give a slogan to the Minister for an immediate policy, and it is “Boreholes for farmers” (bore vir boere). In recent years during the war our country has suffered on account of the Government not being able to provide the farmers with sufficient boreholes, though they need them in all parts of the country. The Minister has advanced as än excuse that the drills were required in connection with the war and he also stated that there was insufficient manpower to operate them. We hope that that time has now passed and that the Minister will now see to it that the farmers are assisted in this respect. Other members, as well as I, have in recent years had numbers of requests for boreholes which we have brought to the notice of the Minister and the reply has invariably been: We are sorry but nothing can be done during the war. The need in many areas is very urgent. Last year, for instance, I asked for boreholes on behalf of my constituency, Winburg, but the department could not give them. Now I have had a letter from another part of my constituency, Senekal. I should like to read that letter to the Minister. It comes from the District Agricultural Union. They held a meeting; the farmers submitted their complaints and it was stated that a water famine threatened the farms—

These are good parts of the country where there has been a serious drought. I have just come from the Free State. I was in touch there with parts of my constituency. I was there recently and I saw myself that the dams were simply empty, although the veld was in parts passably good. Dams are dry because in recent months only soft rains have fallen, which have indeed enabled the grass to grow but which have left the dams empty. If the farmers are not able to get boreholes soon in order to be provided with water for the livestock during the approaching winter things will go very badly for them, as the Minister himself knows, or ought to know. If the farmers can get boreholes now for the approaching winter it will be of great assistance. During winter the need is especially serious when there is a shortage of water, and I want to make an appeal to the Minister to give the assurance to the Committee, when he replies, that the Government will take immediate steps to make Government drills available for the farmers in all parts of the country, and that the Government will do everything to obtain more drills to relieve the need that exists. The position appears to be serious in all parts of the country, and I hope the Minister will give serious attention to this and that his motto will be “bore vir boere”.

One wonders whether the Committee fully appreciates the significance of the Minister’s statement made at the close of the last Session when he oulined his gigantic scheme for the diversion of the Orange River waters to serve those fertile areas of the Fish River and the Sundays River. I think that we all agree that should that scheme be brought to fruition it will stand as a monument to the dynamic energy, foresight and ability of our present Minister of Irrigation. I think it might be opportune for the Minister to give the Committee some indication as to whether the preliminary survey of that scheme has come up to expectation, whether his department is quite convinced as to the feasibility of that scheme, and whether his department is in a position now to give some approximate estimate of the cost and possibly the time that will be required to complete the scheme. I, Sir, am naturally interested in the matter by virtue of the fact that the Sundays River valley falls in my consituency. That valley as the Committee knows, is served by Lake Mentz dam and unfortuntely, and very unhappily the dam itself, due to siltation, will not be in a position to serve the whole of the Sundays River valley for many years. At the present rate it is estimated that what is known as the critical level in storage will be reached in a year or perhaps two years’ time. That being the case it is essential some steps should be taken immediately in order that the farming community in that area should be protected, as least for a period of years. I think the Minister, when he made his statement, mentioned that it was hoped to complete the Orange River scheme in about eight years’ time. Records show that at the present rate of siltation, as far as the Lake Mentz dam is concerned, even if the dam was heightened to its full capacity— a further five or ten feet—that the period the dam will serve, as far as the water supply is concerned 4s at the uttermost eight or nine years. It is essential therefore that work should be undertaken in anticipation of the big Orange River scheme. It might be argued by some that money spent today on Lake Mentz would, in view of the fact that the big Orange River scheme is to be brought about, be money wasted. I am quite certain that the Department of Irrigation will find it possible, in connection with the bigger scheme, to utilise the Lake Mentz dam as a silt-trap, and so protect any other conservation dams lower down the valley. Another objection that has been advanced to the heightening of the Lake Mentz dam at this stage is that it should be possible to dredge the dam as it is today. Expert advice, I understand, is definitely against this. Therefore the only step that can be taken today to save the whole of the Sundays River valley is the heightening of the Lake Mentz dam. I know the Minister is most sympathetic as regards existing irrigation schemes, and as this is one of them I would appreciate it, and I am sure the Committee would appreciate a statement from the Minister in this connection.

I should like to endorse what the previous speaker has stated in connection with the schemes in our constituencies. I know that the Minister is very sympathetically inclined and recently he paid a visit to us for the first time and he could see for himself what has already been done. In the Great Fish River valley and the Sundays River valley the farmers have invested probably more than all the irrigation works have cost. Millions have been poured into them and unless rescue is at hand these people have the prospect staring them in the face that they will eventually have to give up. Unfortunately the dams have already been silted to such an extent that in one instance the capacity of the dam is only 60 per cent. of what it was originally and in theother case the position is perhaps even worse. Bearing in mind the great schemes which are envisaged I want to express the definite hope that these schemes will eventually be prepared. I fear, however, that we shall not be able to wait so long because otherwise the people may succumb to their distress. Consequently I want earnestly to urge on the Government to take immediate steps at least to see the people through in the interim, until eventually further and more comprehensive provision can be made.

I shall confine myself to a matter of extreme importance to the Western Province. I refer especially to the area known as the winter rainfall region, including the districts Paarl, Malmesbury, Wellington and Worcester, and I should like to say something about the public rivers in those districts, such as the Great Berg River, the Breede River and the tributaries such as the Wemmershoek River. Dwars River and Witrivier at Wellington. The Berg River rises in the mountains of Franschhoek, flows through Groot Drakenstein, then through the municipality of Paarl, and also through a part of the municipality of Wellington and enters Saldanha Bay (in connection with which we recently had a Bill under discussion). Then there is the Groot Breërivier. The position on the banks of that river is fairly serious. As the Minister knows, every winter the river comes down in flood, and sometimes more than once during the year it overflows its banks. Every year floods cause much erosion and that creates islands, and in some cases year after year the water runs over the land of riparian owners and even of municipalities. In order to protect themselves they must embark on great expense and launch big projects, and the owners have found that these are not matters for individual action. Every year they spend hundreds of pounds, they endeavour to remove islands that have suddenly appeared, but hardly are they finished before a new island may appealor other damage be wrought. It has also been found that where a farmer has been active in protecting his land perhaps near his boundary, he has thereby created a danger for the man just below him. He may remove an island and then the flood comes and washes the heap of soil lower down against the bank, or over a bank, entailing great damage. I want to pay tribute to the Minister for what has been done. Recently his irrigation engineers were at the Breërivier, and they even came to the Paarl district and studied the Berg River there, and I had the opportunity to see their report, and I was pleased to find that the engineer himself feels it is no longer a matter for individual farmers but that it is a matter of extreme importance and that joint efforts must be exerted to prevent the damage that is being occasioned there. It is a work for experts and the farmers as individuals cannot tackle it. There is a chance of co-operation between municipalities, the divisional councils and the riparian owners, but in many instances the problems are so great that the State must address itself to the task. I feel the time has come for the State to intervene, either by legislation or otherwise, and to take control of public streams, to preserve them and to carry out the necessary works.

I do not think there will be any objection from the riparian owners when expenditure has to be incurred to protect their own properties; and that they will be prepared to contribute. In the Paarl district we have the Wemmershoek River. A few years ago this river went over its banks at a bend and about two-thirds of a farm was washed away. The unfortunate owner sustained several thousand pounds damage. We then tried to persuade the Government to assist and we tried to invoke the assistance of the divisional council, but they were afraid to do anything; the reply was that if they attempted that work and there should again be floods they might be sued for having occasioned thé damage. They told us we must approach the Government. The man who suffered so much damage has in the last few years spent thousands of pounds in restoring his farm. But it was beyond his powers; he is unable to improve the position, and I hope the Minister will now come to their aid in the districts I have mentioned. There are a few other points I should like to mention. We have observed, and we have no objection to offer to it; that in the Karoo, in the Transvaal, and in the Free State and elsewhere thousands of pounds are expended from time to time in the catchment of water, in damming up rivers and in constructing huge irrigation schemes. But nothing in this line has been done for us in the Western Province, though we have the Wemmershoek River, which offers an excellent opportunity for a large catchment dam. The lie of the land there is extraordinarily suitable and an enormous quantity of land could be brought under irrigation. The river comes down from the mountains through a great kloof until it reaches a fairly narrow opening on the face of the mountain before it enters the Berg River, and if the water can be caught there—naturally it will have to be a State scheme—the quantity of water available will be adequate for domestic and irrigation purposes in the whole of the Paarl, Wellington and Malmesbury districts, and it will also be valuable in strengthening the water supply in Saldaha Bay, a matter we discussed the other day. I want to bring this to the notice of the Minister without going into it any further. I know, of course, the municipality of Cape Town have an interest in that. Years ago when the Cape Town Municipality required more water they had the choice of two alternative schemes, Steenbras and Wemmershoek. They adopted Steenbras. They hold certain rights on Wemmershoek, but I do not think there is any doubt that if the Government tackles the matter this difficulty can be overcome. The districts there and the divisional council have for long given attention to the matter, but public bodies such as municipalities and even the divisional council cannot take it on. It is a State scheme, and I hope I have convinced the Minister it is necessary to send officials to examine the whole matter and to make a survey and see whether the Wemmershoek River can be dammed up to provide a supply of water that would be, to use an anglicism, “second to none”. I hope the hon. Minister will see a further opportunity to come to our assistance in connection with the Berg River and the Breede River, because the damage being done there when the rivers are in flood and wash over their banks is great, and individual farmers cannot cope with it. I believe if the Government is of opinion it is a State matter to maintain the big public rivers that the rivers should then be divided into areas, taking for instance an area from the point where the Berg River issues from the mountains to the other side of Wellington. An able official Or officials, should then be appointed who from time to time would make inspections and when floods take place, or if islands are washed up or places washed away these experts should see what action should be taken. Of course, much plant is required in connection with such work, bulldosers etc., and if the Minister feels he can give his attention to this—which I certainly hope will be the case—this is the time to obtain plant from the defence force. I understand that the Defence Department has on its hands a great quantity of such plant and other plant excellently adapted for the work, and there is a chance of obtaining it; otherwise very high prices may have to be paid for the purchase of this plant. I hope the Minister will see his way clear to avail himself of this opportunity. If the Government does not see its way open to take up the matter at once let the plant be made available for the riparian owners. I hope plans can be laid to secure the plant for this purpose. I leave the matter now in the hands of the Minister.

I think there is no matter to which the farmers have been looking forward with so much eagerness as an announcement: by the Minister of Lands in reference to his policy regarding the provision of drilling plant. During the war we continually learnt not only that drilling machines were not available but there was not even the staff available for such plant as was there. Now I should like the Minister to make a clear statement regarding what will happen within the next few years. Let me say at once that during the last few years many farmers have no longer taken the trouble even to make application. Consequently the Minister must not imagine that it is just a matter of so many applications that he has having to be disposed of. I believe, if I may make the suggestion, that a request should now be made in every district for applications to be submitted so that the Minister may know how many boreholes will have to be drilled, and so that he can draw up a policy for a number of years and will know precisely how much time it will take to provide the boreholes so urgently necessary. We have again undergone the experience and it is not the first time, of learning how urgently necessary it is that we should have more boreholes in the Northern Transvaal. We have seen Dr. Bennett’s report about soil erosion, but there is nothing more conducive to soil erosion as the lack of boreholes, which on account of lack of watering places are trampled down by animals. Recently we have found that the round Van Heerden dam does, to a certain extent prevent soil erosion, but it does not help building a dam if there is no water, and if there is no borehole, and until such time as we know what the policy of the department is in connection with the provision of boreholes no dams can be built, and you will be faced with the unfortunate position that now prevails in the Northern Transvaal, where at a number of places there is still a little grazing but there are no watering places, so that the grazing is also valueless, because if there is no water you cannot utilise the land for grazing. If we could have boreholes hundreds of animals could find grazing there. The lack of boreholes has also had the sequel that where there is a borehole hundreds of animals come to drink and they trample out paths which, in turn, bring about soil erosion. It is presumably not necessary to tell the hon. Minister that the number of drills his department has is inadequate. We were glad to learn that drilling plant can now be manufactured in our country, but I do not think that will be sufficient, but drills should also be imported so that the great leeway that has arisen may be made up. Now I want to turn to a second difficulty. If drilling plant is available there is still the question of staff, because it can be understood that men working drills require a certain degree of training. I want to ask the Minister to commence at once with the training of the necessary staff so that later when we have drills we shall not hear that there is a shortage of the staff required to attend to the plant. I notice on the estimates—I presume it is the type of man who is required in connection with this work—that provision is being made for 16 drill inspectors. The number appears to be totally inadequate and I hope the Minister will make timely provision for a much larger number of drilling inspectors because now the war is over the matter must be attended to as soon as possible. We have already experienced the difficulty that in the native reserves where the natives will be settled and where the land must be developed, boreholes will also have to be sunk. Water must be provided before the natives can be established there. One of the great difficulties at present being experienced is that some of the private drilling machines still capable of drilling are being utilised in the native areas. It is a matter of payment, and they have permanent contracts to drill there. The result is that many private drills have gone to the native reserves. The danger exists that this will happen again and we shall have to keep that point in mind. While I am on the subject of private drilling plant I want to make an appeal to the Minister to alter the policy of subsidisation as far as private drilling contractors are concerned. I believe that the highest amount a contractor may receive in respect of a single borehole is only £20.

That is the maximum subsidy he can get.

I want to make an appeal to the Minister to increase the amount. They have to go deeper and deeper and I should like to urge on the Minister that no fixed amount should be determined but that a certain percentage should be granted. If a borehole costs so much and goes down to such a depth, let a percentage be calculated. But it is not right to limit it to £20, especially bearing in mind the fact that the costs in connection with drills have risen appreciably. The drills are much more expensive while the running expenses are also higher. Consequently what may have proved adequate in the past is today certainly no longer an adequate amount. Today people are not disposed to make use of private drills but would rather wait for years until a Government drill becomes available and as I have said, we have already had the experience in the Northern Transvaal of how necessary it is that more boreholes should be sunk as quickly as possible. I want to appeal to the Minister to give preference if possible to those areas where drought prevails and where the people on account of lack of water have to throw up the sponge if immediate provision is not made. I therefore hope preference will be given to those areas suffering from drought.

I further hope that there will also be an alteration made in the policy—a decision may already have been arrived at—that drills must be allotted in the order in which applications were made. In this way it happens that a farm may be 50 miles distant from another farm where drilling is being done and the drilling plant has to be transported 50 miles to the next place that made application, while at the same time the adjoining farm may also have made an application, though perhaps a little later than the farm that is 50 miles distant. I realise that a certain measure of dissatisfaction will be awakened if a man gets the drilling plant later than a neighbour who made application subsequent to him. But if an extensive programme is taken in hand it will be possible not to stick strictly to the rotation in which applications have been submitted, and it will also result in a measure of economy, while not so much time will be lost. Another point in connection with the transportation of drilling plant is this. I hope provision will be made for the Government to have one or two motor vehicles available for transporting the plant. This is one of the big difficulties. You have, for instance, a man in the bushveld who has one span of oxen, or possibly two, but which are inadequate to transport the amazing amount of plant that accompanies the drill. When you see a drill convoy it looks like Pagels Circus. Five or six different waggons are necessary for transporting the plant from one farm to the other, entailing the use of 50 or 60 oxen. If the man requiring the plant has not the necessary oxen he may have to hire them at a great sacrifice. I hope the Minister will make provision that motor vehicles may be available, although it my increase the cost somewhat. The farmers would rather pay the increased costs than have to run around to hire oxen for the transport of the drilling plant.

Much has been said already about the need for boreholes, and it is not necessary for me to labour that point any further. I should like to draw attention specially to the remote northern area of the Cape Province that I represent. I think I may claim the position there is more serious than in any other part of the country. This is largely a new area which only came under the attention of the Government a few years ago and which in respect of development is still very backward. There you have to contend with the fact that the water is found at depth and the difficulties are very great. In regard to the number of boreholes that are required—referred to by the pevious speaker—the magistrate is now declining to accept applications, because I understand that my district alone has 3,000 boreholes in arrears. Last year the Minister gave us the promise that he would lay down special conditions for the northern areas, and I think that is very desirable. A man bores a hole there and frequently he is faced with the question, when he commences drilling, of whether when it has been finished he will still be the owner of that piece of land, because a borehole may easily cost £300 or £400 or even £600, and on top of that he may be so unfortunate as to find the hole is dry. Another aspect of the matter is that although the water level is very steady it is certainly dropping, and I think an enquiry should be instituted in regard to the underground water and into their origin. This is very necessary, becouse if there is any possible chance to strengthening subterranean water sources steps should be taken in that direction. Let us take Kuruman, for example. There a stream of water, with a volume of 1,000,000 gallons a day, issues from a rock. It hardly varies at all; and the question arises where does the water come from? In my opinion the water comes to the surface there after it has travelled a long distance underground by water Courses which are fed by one source or another. We should like to know whether water flows possibly from the Zambesi or from the Drakensburg, and if it flows from the Zambesi how it may be strengthened. In the past we read what Prof. Schwartz wrote about the Dorsland, and we also heard that an investigation was being instituted by engineers concerning the desirability of that scheme, and that in most cases they disapproved of it. I think the late Col. Reitz’ book also mentions the investigation, but I think the advantage of such a scheme would be that the underground waters would be strengthened in the northern areas, and I should at least like to know whether further investigation may not be instituted. I should also like to know what the Minister’s policy is in connection with drilling in the northern regions, it being as necessary there as in any other part of the country. I should like to know whether he can see any prospect of making an early start with work in that connection. I should welcome from the Minister a broad statement in connection with drilling in the northern areas where irrigation works are impossible.

The Minister was in my constituency last year, and apart from the question which really came to be discussed a request was directed to him for an investigation into certain matters in Langkloof and other valleys, and I was asked by the farmers’ associations to thank his Department through him for the immediate action taken. We hope that it will have good results. Another matter I should like to raise is in connection with the Olifants River scheme at Van Rhynsdorp. We want the Minister to have it investigated because two things happened which caused the farmers much damage. There is no Irrigation Board. The scheme is controlled by the Government. Last year in May, the main canal broke and the farmers were without water for six weeks. It is a very dry area which only gets a few inches of rain and there are between 30,000 and 50,000 morgen under irrigation, so the Minister can realise what great damage is caused when the farmers are without water.

When the canal breaks?

Yes. It can of course always happen and we cannot really blame the Department for it. But what causes a large measure of anxiety is that the canal again broke in another spot four months later, so that the people were again without water for six to seven weeks. I know of many farmers who suffered severe damage as a result of these two periods in which they were waterless. In such cases there are all sorts of rumours about the canal, to the effect that it is not in good condition. Several smaller breaks also happened which caused a delay of only a week or a fortnight. It is an enormous irrigation district and the Minister can realise how difficult the position of these people becomes if the canal is without water for six or seven weeks. This canal does not go over level ground, as is usually the case. For about 20 miles it goes through a mountainous area which is very difficult territory and where the danger of a break is much greater. It is therefore necessary to maintain the canal in a much better condition than is usually the case, and I hope that the Minister will institute an investigation to see whether an improvement cannot be made. I then want to come to another matter, and I hope that the Chairman will allow me to raise it here. In the course of a previous debate I stated that when the Minister received the report of the Kakamas Commission he sent it back to the Commission. The Minister will admit that the discussion that day was very hot and that one did not express oneself as well as one would have liked to. I had a letter from a great friend of mine who was the Chairman of the Commission, in which he referred to this matter, and he states that there is not the least ground for such a statement. The Chairman of the Commission is not only a friend of mine but a very prominent person, and any reflection I made was in no way meant as a reflection on him, and I accept his word unconditionally in conection with the matter.

I just briefly want to refer to the condition in which irrigators at Lake Arthur find themselves. It is only natural that these people should find themselves in a very difficult position indeed, and I would like briefly to read some of the reasons as given to me in a memorandum recently supplied. It says—

I might also, at this stage point out that the area served by Lake Arthur is held in small farms, by approximately 225 owners, supports a population of approximately 1,200 Europeans and 6,000 coloureds and natives. It will, therefore, be readily appreciated that so large a number of people cannot be allowed to sink into ruin without some real effert to save them. I am pleased to say that the irrigators recognise that the Minister and Director of Irrigation are very sympathetic towards them in their plight and I am assured that notwithstanding all the difficulties which have delayed matters, the completion of the work whereby Lake Arthur will be raised by three feet can be confidently looked forward to during the course of the coming few months. But, Mr. Chairman this raising of Lake Arthur by a further three feet will only be of temporary assistance as the capacity of Lake Arthur, even after this raising, is already inadequate, and unless further storage is made available in the near future it will then be too late to save the majority of the irrigators. The question then arises: What, therefore, must be done to avoid what will, undoubtedly, amount to almost a national disaster? The Minister, in his extensive survey last year, has indicated that he proposes to divert water from the Orange River near Bethulie, by canal, part of which will consist of a 49-mile canal through a mountain range, and such water will then be poured into the Fish River in order to feed the whole Fish River valley. This scheme which has still to be surveyed and thereafter considered by the Cabinet, if agreed to, will take possibly up to 10 years to complete. I may at once say that this ambitious scheme, when completed, it is confidently anticipated, will solve the irrigators’ water supply difficulties and the whole country and posterity will acclaim the Minister for his foresight, but, Mr. Chairman, what is worrying these irrigators is the fact that they cannot wait for the completion of this scheme as their existing water supply is fast approaching the stage when the storage dam will be inadequate or be completely silted up. I desire therefore, very focibly to impress upon the Minister the seriousness of this fast-approaching calamity of these irrigators and to ask him “what about it?” Because definitely something will have to be done about further storage in the near future until his Orange River canal scheme can be completed and brought into operation. Even, therefore, if a considerable amount will have to be spent on a temporary scheme it will most definitely have to be done and at this stage I feel justified in asking the Minister to fully investigate without delay and as soon as his staff is available now that the war is over, what his Department already knows as the Commando Drift site. In this connection I quote a telegram received by me from the Great Fish River Irrigation Board reading—

It is felt that this site will be most suitable for a reservoir, because a dam on that site will not only supply additional storage, whilst a dam across Vlekpoort will act as an effective silt-trap for Lake Arthur. I strongly commend this to the Minister. I am satisfied that he realises the seriousness of the position and that we have his sympathy, and I will, therefore, be grateful if he will give me a definite assurance of his willing ness to immediately investigate this suggestion and thereafter give early effect thereto.

I wish to concur with what the last speaker just said. Those dams lie in my area. Much money was spent on those dams and in those valleys we find some of the best people who came here from Europe and India to start farms there. They now have difficulty with the water because the dams silt up fast. As the hon. member said, the danger can be warded off temporarily by building a dam at Vlekpoort to divert the silt from Lake Arthur. We are glad to hear that the wall will be raised three feet. It will of course help for a few years until the Minister’s scheme can come into operation. If the Minister can bring that scheme into operation it will be an ornament for South Africa, and I can give him the assurance that that water will be used to good advantage. We know that at present much ground lies vacant owing to lack of water, and it will again be able to be cultivated. Approximately 50,000 morgen will be added to the irrigation area. It will then be one of South Africa’s largest irrigation works. Then I wish to draw the Minister’s attention further to the difficulty in connection with boring machines in the Cradock area. It is a mountainous area with ironstone and the ordinary bore is no good. For that reason bores have now been booked up for 10 years, and it means that many of these people will not have the opportunity to bore. I want to ask the Minister to do everything in his power to send five or six bores there, because the people cannot wait for 10 years. Farmers find themselves in a very difficult position in times of drought like the present, because they must have water for their animals. I hope that the Minister will se to it that those people speedily obtain bores, because it is very essential. Then I still want to say something in connection with a scheme mentioned by the Minister, on which I want to congratulate him. It will also put the old Thebus scheme under water. I would like to know whether the Minister is going to give out that ground just as at other places, or whether the Government is going to take over the ground. The Minister stated that he would be able to irrigate approximately 40,000 morgen. If he gives each farmer 50 morgen there will of course be much water left over, and I should like to know whether the Government will take over the ground or whether they will only give each farmer 50 morgen of ground for irrigation.

Last year I asked the Minister to try to meet the farmers living along the Breërivier, and the supplementary streams which are subject to floods, by trying to keep the river within its banks. Breërivier and the other streams are inclined to silt up and to be affected by driftwood with the result that Valuable plantations and lands run the danger of being carried away. The Minister sent the Irrigation Commission there and I know they did a very thorough job. I was with them. They brought out an encouraging report, and I should like to know from the Minister whether I can tell the farmers that he will put the work in hand as quickly as possible. I should’ like to learn from the Minister whether it is his intention to help the farmers in that connection. Then I come to the fact that so much water is still running into the sea. That is a deplorable state of affairs. The Americans cannot understand that while our rivers are emptying themselves into the sea we are complaining about droughts along those rivers. At Worcester engineers were at great pains to select a site for a dam. Hitherto they have not been able to discover a suitable spot, and I want to ask the Minister whether as soon as those engineers are available he will send some of them to investigate whether there is not a suitable place for a large dam …

The hon. member should discuss that matter under the Loan Estimates.

Then I hope to discuss this matter at a later opportunity.

A year or two ago this side of the House proposed, by way of a motion, that the time had arrived when the State should utilise subterranean waters on a national basis. At that time the Minister of Lands voted against it. But fortunately he has improved in the course of years. We understand that in Another Place he made the statement that he has in mind carrying out a big scheme to provide the dry areas of the country with underground water, by making boreholes available under a definite scheme. We will greatly appreciate it if the Minister will explain that scheme to the House. People in the dry areas of the country, like my constituency, are very anxious to learn about this and to know precisely what the Minister envisages with this scheme of his. We wish to congratulate him in advance on being the first Minister who has got to the pitch—if he really can bring this scheme into effect in the near future—to contribute something practical to social security in the country. Because with such a scheme he will be making provision for what is perhaps the greatest need in South Africa, namely the provision of water in what is perhaps the driest region of our country. But it does not assist us merely to talk of these things. We should like to know from the Minister what his scheme is, and we should also like to learn from him whether he intends to make a start with such a scheme. We know that at the commencement of the war in 1939 there were about 100 drills in the country. We do not know how many of these drills were sent north and how many were returned. I believe the farmers will appreciate it if the Minister takes the country into his confidence and informs us how many drills he has and how many will again be put into operation. I want to urge on the Minister that he should scrap the old drills as soon as possible, and that he should only use the new drills which we have made in the country ourselves. He should approach the Minister of Finance for the necessary funds because it is clear that only that type of drill is really useful in areas such as in the North-West where transport is the big problem. As I have said, we shall appreciate it greatly if the Minister will take the House into his confidence and tell us something more about his scheme and the date on which it is going to be put into operation. Then there is another matter, and that is, what is his policy as Minister of Irrigation? I fear when we look at the report of the Auditor-General we must come to the conclusion that there is a very unhealthy position in South Africa. We have the position that the Minister of Irrigation is also Minister of Lands. But in the past there was not the slightest co-ordination between Irrigation and Lands, with what result? It was that we had many schemes constructed in South Africa where there was no co-operation between Irrigation and Lands with the result that the State wasted thousands of pounds unnecessarily. I should like to know from the Minister whether he will now decide once and for all that irrigation schemes should also be taken in hand on a sound business foundation. When a scheme is surveyed we should know exactly how many morgen of land it can bring under irrigation, what volume of water the dam can contain, and if a decision is taken regarding a scheme the Department should forthwith secure the options on the farms. At the moment the procedure is that the Irrigation Department starts boring to ascertain whether it can get the foundations for a dam. Immediately that is bruited abroad, and the result is that the farms in the immediate neighbourhood, whether they will be served by the dam or not, rise in value by a couple of hundred per cent. This has happened in respect to the most recent schemes that have been constructed. Accordingly we should like to learn from the Minister, seeing he is both Minister of Irrigation and Minister of Lands, whether he will ensure that there will be a discontinuance of that sort of miserable policy that was followed in the past, of undertaking a scheme without first going fully into it, or ascertaining whether it will be supported by the Department of Lands, or without consulting the Department of Lands, or without knowing whether the Department of Lands will use such a scheme for settlement. I think the time is long overdue when matters of that sort should be put on a better business footing so that we shall not squander as much money in connection with these schemes, as has been the case in the past. Then I should like to return to the first point I mentioned, namely boring. I notice on the estimates the amount set down for salaries and wages is only £50 more than last year, namely £13,250 as compared with £13,200. Subsistence stands at the same figure and travelling expenses are £500 less than last year. Those figures are very disquieting not only to me but to all those people in the North. We appreciate what the difficulties were in the past. The Minister has told us that he has the drills but not the staff. The war is now over, and I think that qualified drillers are now available. Why then has the Minister made such meagre provision, or did the Minister not know that the war would soon be over when he drew up the estimates?

We were still in the war.

I understand that. Seeing the circumstances have changed we hope that the Minister will make proper provision for these necessary services in those parts of the country.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he can give the House some information with regard to the position of the Mentz Dam and the Sundays River valley irrigation scheme. I understand, from information supplied by the Sundays River Irrigation Board, that the dam has silted up 60 per cent. of its capacity. I understand that in 1935 to 1936 works were undertaken there which increased the capacity of storage some 25,400 feet, but the position today is that the dam, due to silt, can only supply a nett duty of 28 inches to 64,800 morgen, or only 60 per cent. of the total scheduled area. The point I want to deal with is this question of siltation. Can nothing be done to carry off the silt as it enters the dam or, alternatively, can nothing be done to remove the silt after it enters the dam? I am told that the engineer on the Lake Mentz irrigation scheme says that that silt cannot be removed because of its solidification. Though in those things I am only a layman, it has seemed to me it should be possible to remove the silt, that it would be possible to excavate the silt after it has entered the dam. One understands there are dredging firms overseas who would undertake to remove Table Mountain provided the funds were there to pay for it. I am told even if it were possible to remove the silt from this particular dam, and also from Lake Arthur, the cost would be so great that it would not be economical. I do not know what constitutes an economical proposition in dealing with water that is absolutely essential as the lifeblood of a large community. To my mind it would be very difficult to assess the economic value of that in £ s. d. and I contend if it is possible to remove that silt it should be done. I would like to ask the Minister, whether any of these large firms overseas have ever been asked to send an expert out to consider the possibilities of the removal of silt in these dams, and to give an estimate of the cost.

Why overseas?

I do not think anyone in this country is in a sufficiently large way of business to handle a scheme of this nature, although I do think that firms responsilbe for the reclamation of land in the harbour area might have been consulted in the matter, seeing that they are capable of handling very large jobs in different parts of the world. One would have thought that they might have an expert capable of giving advice and also possibly of giving some idea of what their charges would be. Then I am told it would necessitate the use of a large quantity of the water that is in the dam and which cannot possibly be spared. That may be so. But in my opinion if the silt cannot be removed, if that silt as it enters the dam cannot be carried off, it brings us back to our old national bogey of soil erosion— it must be prevented from entering these dams, otherwise we are merely spending tremendous amounts of money on temporary schemes which are of no real value to the country, because it is useless building up an area under cultivation, such as the Sundays River settlement, costing goodness knows how many thousands of pounds, placing people in a position where they feel they are established for life, only to find they merely have a temporary’ tenure and that in the final position they are worse off than when they first settled in the valley. We cannot as a responsible Government face up to a position of that kind. Then, if we cannot handle the silt in the dam, we have to take measures to prevent the silt going into the dam, and that can only be done by proclaiming the water shed areas and setting about a comprehensive scheme of soil erosion prevention. If we are to continue allowing the dams to silt up, condemning a large area of cultivated lands upon which the livelihood of so many people depends, it seems to me we as a government, will be in a parlous condition indeed, and I think that failing the removal of the silt, the only alternative, as I said before, is to prevent the silt entering these dams, and I consider that the Minister of Lands and the Minister of Agriculture should put their heads together and consider taking immediate steps for a comprehensive soil erosion scheme to prevent the silt from entering the dams. I do not know what the agricultural community feel about these matters, I am a townsman. I am concerned because the Sundays River valley is of great importance to the livelihood of the people of Port. Elizabeth, and they feel concerned because every year a certain number of holdings in the Sundays River are allowed to revert to their original state, and fruit trees die or fail to come to fruition because of lack of water; and the position gets worse every year. The Sundays River Irrigation Board says that in a very short period of years, unless further works are constructed at Lake Mentz, the valley is doomed. Those are their words, “the valley is doomed”. I do not feel I can look upon a state of affairs like that with any degree of equanimity. I feel it behoves the responsible Minister to take the necessary steps without further delay. We cannot sit down and allow these huge schemes to become useless without doing something to prevent it. I know it is intended eventually to establish this new scheme of the Minister’s and to supply the water needs of these people in both the Sundays River valley and in the area that was mentioned by the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Mr. V. G. F. Solomon). [Time limit.]

I wish to associate myself with the remarks of the hon. member for Kuruman (Mr. Olivier), but I would also like to ask the Minister if the time has not arrived to make fresh investigations in connection with the Schwartz scheme. Years ago, investigations were made and I think that since then science has changed considerably, and it is felt more particularly in the north-west that a more thorough investigation into the Schwartz scheme should be undertaken, particularly with a view to improving the water resources in those parts. There is however another matter I want to deal with and I hope the Minister will explain the position to us. It is the case of Dr. Mes. He has ’two farms, “Grootklipput” and “Elandskrans”. They fall under a State irrigation scheme, that is to say, the Loskop Dam in the district of Groblersdal. Dr. Mes has to farms there and in respect of each one he would be entitled to 50 morgen under irrigation and a water supply from the dam. On the 5th November, 1943, this matter was regulated under the Act. On that date the first regulation was promulgated in connection with the scheme. The position is that originally Dr. Mes was receiving water to irrigate his land, but it was discontinued after the promulgation of the regulation, which was promulgated under the Irrigation Act. He then approached the Department of Irrigation to find out the reason why his land had not been scheduled. I think he approached the Department on the 4th February, 1944. He received a reply from the Director of Irrigation on the 9th March, 1944, to the effect that as his land was not scheduled, he could not be provided with water. Now it appears that the Department of Lands is anxious to buy that land and the Department of Lands entered into negotiations with Dr. Mes concerning his property. These negotiations failed. The department and Dr. Mes could not’ arrive at an agreement, and now, in my opinion, the Department is compelled by law to schedule his farms. Apparently there is a conflict between the Department of Lands and the Department of Irrigation. The Department of Lands is anxious to get possession of the farms.

Irrigation has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

But at the moment I am concerned with irrigation, because the negotiations between the Department of Lands and Dr. Mes broke down, and now Dr. Mes is without water. The Department of Lands addressed a letter to Dr. Mes informing him that he would get 30 morgen under irrigation provided he sells his farms to the Department of Lands. That letter was addressed to him on the 18th January, and in that letter they state that “as regards this department, no portion of the ground of Dr. Mes was placed on the schedule of irrigable ground”, but “if he accepts the Government’s offer, the Department of Irrigation will be asked to place about 30 morgen of ‘Grootklipput’ on the schedule of irrigable areas”. There is therefore a clash here in the Department of Lands and the Department of Irrigation, and I take it that the Department of Lands as a result of the failure of the negotiations for the purchase of the ground, has disappeared from the scene, and the only two persons who are now in the field are Dr. Mes and the Director of Irrigation. This ground of Dr. Mes is under the irrigation scheme. He formerly had water for irrigation, before the negotiations took place, although the ground was not in the schedule, but now that the Department of Lands cannot buy the ground from him it seems as if the Department of Lands told the Irrigation Department: You cannot include this ground of Dr. Mes in the schedule, because I want to buy it. I am willing to give him only 30 morgen and for that water can be given. That is unjust. That is not the object of the Act. I will perhaps leave tonight, and if I am not here I hope that the Minister will explain the matter. Dr. Mes feels that a pistol is being held at his head because they want to buy the ground from him. He feels that the time has arrived to develop the ground, but now it must be taken away from him. On 5th February, 1945, he wrote a letter to the Department through his attorney, which indicated how far the matter has developed. It is stated in the letter that their client feels “that pressure is being exercised to induce his selling the ground to the Department”, and they mention that if no satisfactory reply is received within 14 days, action will be taken against the Department to compel the Department to schedule the ground and to make water available. There is another difficulty in connection with the matter. Last year, that is in 1944, we adopted an Act which provides that in’ future in irrigation areas only 50 morgen of irrigable land per farm will be allotted.

This provision about 50 morgen is applicable to only one scheme, namely Rietrivier.

But the Act provides in general, Act No. 30 of 1944 ….

If you read the Act you will see that the Minister can do it.

The Act provides that the Minister can determine in what areas each owner will be able to receive 50 morgen under irrigation.

I will make that clear.

But in the Act 50 morgen is stipulated as the area of irrigable land which can be allotted. That is the other difficulty facing Dr. Mes. The whole matter is of great importance as a principle, and when the Minister makes a statement, I hope that he will be as clear as possible on the point. The principle involved there is that it seems that the Department of Lands can dictate to the Irrigation Department: “You cannot include that land in the schedule because we want it for our purposes”, and when the department cannot come to an agreement with the owner of the ground, the Irrigation Department are told not to include the ground in the schedule, and the provision in regard to the right of an owner to have his ground included in the schedule is not taken into consideration. I shall be glad if we can get an explanation about the matter, because as I read the Act, Dr. Mes, who has two deeds of transfer, can claim twice 50 morgen of irrigable land, and his ground must be included in the schedule.

I think I ought to reply to the questions that have been put, and I should like first to reply to the question of the hon. member for Gordonia (Mr. J. H. Conradie) in connection with the case of Dr. Mes. Let me just say that as far as my personal knowledge of the matter goes the case is still sub judice.

No, I can give the Minister the assurance that is not so.

Has the procedure of expropriation not yet begun?

No.

So far as I know they are occupied with that. The hon. member is under a misapprehension in connection with the position there. The provision of 50 morgen each owner is entitled to there has reference to the Rietrivier scheme and nowhere else. It has been so laid down in respect of the Rietrivier scheme, and the servitude which he mentioned—that the land may not be subdivided or sold—has relation to Rietrivier.

The Act does not say that.

Is that done byway of regulation?

As far as Rietrivier is concerned the section has been inserted. Let me clarify the position in connection with Loskop. When I took over in 1939 the Loskop scheme had not yet been completed. A small number of holdings had been allotted; land had been granted I think, at Witpenskloof. When I took over, the general law applied in connection with irrigation under which Vaal-Hartz was established, that where ground is expropriated for settlement the owner whose farm is being expropriated may retain 100 morgen, and it was not even stated where he could take it or that he could not take it in various areas. That created an impossible position. When I had to commence purchasing land at Loskop with the provision that an owner had the right to select 100 morgen the position was an impossible one. The experience I had at Vaal-Hartz indicated to me the impracticability of that provision. A man had perhaps only a small piece of land, hardly 100 morgen, and when his ground was expropriated he remained there with all the irrigable land. What is to become of settlement in the face of such a provision? Apart from that it makes for speculation. At Vaal-Hartz we tried to expropriate but there are still certain pieces in the settlement, and the private owners who have those pieces of land began to sell them and to cut them up into plots of five morgen and sometimes one morgen, and we could not prevent it. In that way businesses were brought in. Someone spoke about Indians. As a result of that law Indians have already penetrated at Vaal-Hartz. Let me take another case. At Vaal-Hartz an owner who had this right to 100 morgen took it around the Border station, with the result that the Government was totally cut off from the station.

He could not close the public roads.

No, but we could not get to the station because it was all his land.

Will you be so good as to confine yourself as to this one case.

I am talking about the difficulties we experienced at Loskop. We were obliged to build another station at Border, 1½ miles from the other station, in order to have access. The position at Vaal-Hartz is that some of the private land is being sold at £200 and more a morgen. The position makes administration very difficult for us. When I was faced with the position of having to expropriate land at Vaal-Hartz I did not want to do so until such time as I had the right to expropriate under the law, and until such time that the provision no longer existed that a man who was expropriated should have the right to retain 100 morgen. I was not prepared to expropriate on that basis. I am speaking under correction, but I believe the 30 morgen the hon. member referred to is in accordance with the provision that the Minister may grant 30 morgen.

It is the amended Act.

The section applies to Loskop.

I thought you said it only applied at Rietrivier.

No, you spoke there about 50 morgen. The 30 morgen to which you referred applies to Loskop and other settlements that will be established in the future, but before I put this section through I had not the right to expropriate and, if I wanted to expropriate, the Act that applied was the Act that had applied at Vaal-Hartz, which gave a man the right to retain 100 morgen. Consequently we did hot expropriate that land nor have we, as far as Loskop is concerned, yet expropriated an inch of land. But we were fortunate there. I went to. Loskop and told the people that we wanted their land, and Dr. Mes was one of them. I said that we required their farms. Dr. Mes also received notice that we needed his land. He refused to sell his farm and we could not compel him to unless we gave him the benefit of the 100 morgen. What we did was this. I went to Loskop and told the landowners there that this section about the 100 morgen existed, namely that we could expropriate them but we would have to allow them 100 morgen. But I said we could not do that. Then the people voluntarily agreed to negotiate with us and the Land Board negotiated, and I am certain that 95 per cent. of the land we had from the people at Loskop is now in our possession. Those were voluntary transactions, but Dr. Mes refused to agree. The water he had and that the hon. member referred to was given to him by us all these years, but he was not scheduled.

I said so.

He paid nothing during all that period.

He was prepared to pay.

I did not want to take his money. I wanted his farm, because as soon as we gave him water he could turn round and say that he demanded we should schedule his land for so many morgen. We could not do so. It was not his water. We gave it to him as a present until such time as we could expropriate the land under the new Act.

The idea was to expropriate the land.

We bought 98 per cent. of the land on a voluntary basis, but we had to expropriate Dr. Mes.

Had you necessarily to have all the land, or could these people retain a portion?

In the Act there is provision that the Minister may grant 30 morgen of irrigable land. That explains the 30 morgen the hon. member spoke about.

Thirty morgen in one portion.

Yes, we could not cut up the land right and left.

Thirty morgen in its entirety.

It had to be as a whole. We could not do it in bits and pieces. We could not cut it up into pieces.

Will you give him water for his 30 morgen?

Yes, of course. He will then get water for his 30 morgen. We gave them 30 morgen more or less on principle, and that is what we offered Dr. Mes. He can have his 30 morgen but he will not agree to it. The result is that we have already begun, so I believe, to take steps to expropriate. He now demands that we should schedule him. All these years we have given him and the other people the water for nothing, and now we need it and we want to have it. I have just got a small note to the effect that the Central Land Board again visited Dr. Mes to ascertain whether they could not come to an agreement to buy the land from him without our having to go to the Water Court. While I am on my feet I shall also reply to the other question brought up by the hon. member, and that is whether an enquiry has been’ made in connection with the Schwarz scheme. I only want to say that I am in perfect agreement with the hon. member that if we can again bring to the south the water that is running in these rivers, the Nossop and the Molopo rivers, which have been larger than the Orange River, if we can take that water back it will strengthen the subterranean waters, especially in those dry north-west regions of the Cape and even in the Western Transvaal; and it will be for the benefit of South Africa if that can be done. I intend to leave on a visit to that part of the country on the 5th June, to the Okavango and round about there, and I am taking the Director of Irrigation and two other engineers with me. Three ëngineers will thus be going together, and we shall go through th whole area and see whether there is any possibility of the waters being brought back. The waters of the Okavango lose themselves in the marshes and you do not know where the waters enter. Mr. Kokot was there last year and he brought out a report. He says the Okavango alone has enough water to irrigate more than 1,000,000 morgen. I am not perfectly certain of the figure, but I believe it is over 1,000,000. Okavango is much larger than the Vaal or the Orange Rivers and its water disappears in the marshes. The idea has always been that if you can lead off those waters you could later fill up the Ngami Lake and then the rainfall here in South Africa would be improved.

Is that the scheme known as the Schwarz scheme?

Yes. The expert advice is that it will not improve the rainfall in South Africa. It will not in the first place improve the rainfall because the prevailing wind blows everything to the north. If it should be the case that this scheme would bring moisture and improve the rainfall the rain would be blown to the north, because the wind blows in a northward direction. But the proof that will not improve the rainfall is this. There are parts in the constituency of the hon. member for Swellendam (Mr. S. E. Warren) where the farms border on the sea, and yet we have a great drought there. But I agree that if we can bring down the waters of those rivers it will be a tremendous advantage in the way of increasing our subterranean water supply.

Will you read Schwarz’ book again before you go up?

His widow heard that I intended to go and she sent me one of his books, and I shall read it.

Are you going by air?

I have now dealt with the case of Dr. Mes. The hon. member for Swellendam asked me whether it was not possible to introduce an amendment in the law of 1912 in connection with irrigation boards. I think that if you wantto make alterations in the irrigation law it will first be necessary to introduce a consolidating Act on irrigation, and not only to smooth out all the knotty points, we should effect general alterations based on our experience. It was impossible to do so during the war years. There was such a great shortage of staff that it was quite impossible to think of consolidation. The hon. member for Kimberley (City) (Mr. Humphreys) asked me what the plan is in connection with irrigation schemes along the Modder River. Various irrigation schemes along the Modder have already been investigated, and it has been stated that these will be good schemes. We have much information in connection with the various schemes along the Modder River, but our difficulty was this. I am referring to the difficulties I encountered in the last six years—that we shall have to take into consideration the needs of large communities. Bloemfontein is a large community; the town is expanding and their needs in the future will be greater. Their water supply at Bloemfontein has now reached the point where they have to make provision for increasing it.

They are going to raise the wall by 10 ft.

Yes, they are going to increase the height of the wall by 10 ft., but the Bloemfontein Municipality came to see me and said: Before you build a scheme on that river in the neighbourhood of Bloemfontein give us time to ascertain what plans we can make to ensure our water supplies and to increase it for the future; and I gave the undertaking, because I think the Government will, in the first instance, give priority to great communities like Bloemfontein or Johannesburg or other large towns. They must have priority over ordinary irrigation. I think Bloemfontein has now come to a decision as to their plans for the near future.

The Water Court has given them the right to heighten the wall by 10 ft

They have been given the right to heighten the wall by 10 ft. at Maselspoort. But that will not be enough. They may have to build another dam at some other spot on the Modder River. I think they have now come to a conclusion in regard to their long term plans. [Interruptions.] We cannot build a dam for surplus water. When we build a dam it is to ensure that there is adequate water to provide the needs of a certain number of farms. We cannot build a dam for surplus water. When we biuld a dam we must have the assurance from the experts that there will be enough water to fill up the dam and keep it full.

There is much water running away in the Modder River.

Yes, I know there is a great deal of water flowing off in the Modder River. The intention is that during the recess the Director of Irrigation shall make enquiries in regard to future schemes on the Modder River. After we know what the long-term plans of Bloemfontein are we shall see whether it is possible to go on with any scheme there. The hon. member also asked what provision we are making for coloured people in regard to irrigation. I want to say this in that connection. A scheme has been surveyed on the Orange River, the other side of the waterfall, on the other side of Kakamas, above Goodhouse. When I took over there was money on the estimates for that scheme to be proceeded with. I withdrew it from the estimates because at that time it was intended for Europeans, and my attitude was that we could not put white people on that island. It is an excellent scheme. We are engaged in making investigations with a view to establishing a scheme which will irrigate 1,500 morgen, and which we shall utilise exclusively for coloured settlers in the future. We are engaged in investigating that question and I hope that we shall be able in the near future to report to the House. The hon. member for Winburg (Mr. Swart) gave me a plan; he said I should adopt as my slogan “bore vir boere”. This is the first time that we have been so absolutely in accord. I shall accept that. It has always been my motto, and as a farmer who grew up in dry parts and who still farms in those dry parts I know that if we can carry out that motto we shall get absolutely different results.

So far it has only been a motto.

It has only been a motto as far as I am concerned. I came in 1939. We had the war years, and hon. members know that a very large’ number of drills were sent out of the country to be used by the army, and it was impossible for us to carry out that motto in practice.

Can you tell us what you are going to do in the near future?

I am coming to that. I shall explain our scheme in a moment in reply to a question put by the hon. member for Vryburg (Mr. De Kock) in connection with drills for certain sections in the country. At the moment we have 68 drills which are being employed and which are still in use. I have explained that the drills we had in 1938 were old fashioned drills. As my hon. friend says you require five or six spans of draft animals to transport the drills. Some of them were also obsolete. A great number of them were sent to the north. A large proportion of our staff joined the army, and we had to lock up the drills. We are now endeavouring to get as many of them in use as possible.

How many drills is the Minister of Mines using?

I cannot say, but the Department of Mines is not using very many. We also have to see to the needs of the Mines Department.

That is for water; I am now referring to drills for mineral purposes.

The Minister of Mines has three.

Let him get his own.

No, we are co-operating. It is under my department. The hon. member has asked that we should send drills to the drought-stricken areas. That policy has been adopted by us in recent years. I have even gone so far as to give instructions to the director to send the drills to the dry areas, to Vryburg and Zoutpansberg, for instance, and not to areas where the rainfall is adequate and where there is at least sufficient water for primary consumption. The hon. member for Swellendam has stated that those people have no water. We are sending the drills away to help them. We are short of drills but we shall do our best. Seeing there is such a big shortage of drills and bearing in mind the big scheme that we shall carry out, I want to put this question to my hon. friends: We give a subsidy of 50 per cent. to private farmers to drill, to a maximum of £20.

It is too little.

My hon. friend says it is too little.

Is it £20 per borehole?

Yes. We give a maximum of £70 to private people in respect of holes that prove dry, where there is no water, apart from the subsidy on the hole.

These are Government boreholes are they not?

Yes, but we also give a subsidy to the private farmers. The £70 is not for the private farmer with a maximum of £20. The hon. member says that £20 is not enough. The subsidies we paid out last year average £12 per borehole. If that is too small we shall go into the matter, but I think the amount is satisfactory. There may be a few cases where it runs to more than £20.

If I get a private drill and I drill a dry hole, do I also get £20?

No, there must be water, and you must put in a pump. We must make more use of the private drills in the country.

Yes, but they cannot drill through ironstone. That is the difficulty.

With the machinery that is now there?

Yes, they make no headway with the ironstone.

It is such a worry that I cannot recommend that we should sell the drills to the farmers.

But the new ones?

It will take a couple of years to fulfil all the requirements of the farmers.

I did not grasp your meaning, what is it you cannot recommend?

I cannot recommend the sale to the farmers of the drills we have at present. In Vryburg we recommended that if there were ten or twelve farmers, or if there were farmers’ associations, in want of a drilling machine, we would lease it to them. It would have to be sent under our supervision, I do not know whether they have made use of that.

We bought one from the Government.

I think you can still get it today. We can sell it to you and you ’can pay so much a year for depreciation and eventually it can become your drill.

How are we going to meet those people who drill but strike no water?

I shall tell you presently how we can meet those people. It is under another scheme, but it will apply in the dry areas. It is in connection with the questions put by the hon. member for Winburg. He asked that we should send drills to those parts. He asked what we were doing to increase the number of our drills. I have already told the House, and I want to repeat again, that we are making drills in our own workshops. In the first place there is a shortage of employees, and in the second place we had difficulty in obtaining the iron and steel that was needed and consequently we could make no progress. We have now begun and ten drills have already been completed. They are now being tested, and so far as the tests are concerned they have given excellent results and we are continuing to make them as quickly as we can.

How quickly is that?

We have made those ten drills in the last two years, but I say we were short of steel and short of workmen and we could not make rapid progress. We hall now be able to make them at a quicker rate. We hope that we shall now proceed in full swing.

Are you going to help the people in the Free State who have no water?

Why do I recommend private drills in the Free State? They can drill at almost every place in the Free State. The drills we are now manufacturing will be used in the first instance in the dry areas. At the moment we have more than 3,000 applications. We cannot respond to all the applications because we have too few drills and too few workmen. I want therefore to tell hon. members that they must try to get private drills. They get a subsidy on them, and I recommend that they should rely on those. Not only are we trying to increase the number of drills we are manufacturing, but we shall import drills if they will make them for us in America and elsewhere according to our specifications. But the difficulty today is that we cannot get them. America will not do the job and we shall have to wait until such time as it is possible to import the drills.

†Now I come to the hon. member for Uitenhage (Mr. Dolley), the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (North) (Mr. Johnson), the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Mr. V. G. F. Solomon) and the hon. member for Somerset East (Mr. Vosloo). They all asked me to give some indication of the possibilities of the Sundays River valley scheme and asked me what I intended doing in regard to Sundays River valley and Lake Arthur which have apparently been silted up. The postion there is very precarious at the moment. As far as the Sundays River valley is concerned, about nine years ago five feet were put on to the wall of the Sundays River valley and today we are exactly where we were nine years ago. It has silted up to that again, and in the Sundays River valley the position is becoming very serious and very precarious indeed. There are no less than 600,000 citrus trees in full bearing, and they are threatened with the shortage of water. In case they were to have a shortage of water, and a short drought the position is that incalculable harm would be done to those trees. Even though you may be able to save the trees, later, they will never recover fully, and we are going to do all we possibly can to help the Sundays River valley people to tide them over the short period until such time as provision will be made to ensure their water supply for a very long period of years. We have made provision to’ raise the Sundays River valley (Lake Mentz) weir as soon as possible. We hope to start doing it this year, but to raise the wall a few feet is not sufficient. We shall have to erect other subsidiary works. We shall have to erect another weir below the present wall. That will be something of a temporary nature, but we hope at any rate that that will see them through until such time as we can come with a bigger scheme which I shall deal with in a moment.

Is it intended to raise the wall five feet?

It is proposed to put it up several feet, but also to erect another weir below the dam. Lake Arthur, is in exactly the same position. I was asked what I was going to do about Lake Arthur. There we have the same precarious position. We are going to raise Lake Arthur three feet, and the position there is so precarious that I hope we shall be able to make a start there within three months. That will be temporary only. You can do no more than do a little patchwork. The hon. member asked me to give some indication of the possibility of the Bethulie-Fish River scheme. Last year I gave the House a very comprehensive indication in regard to the Bethulie-Fish River scheme, i.e. to take water out of the Orange River at Bethulie and to throw it into the Brak River, then take it down the Fish River and then into the Sundays River valley. Let me begin by saying that originally when these dams were built they were scheduled to irrigate 21,000 morgen in the Fish River valley. At the present moment there is only water available for 13,000 morgen, and it is very precarious at that. Most of the time the people are just living from hand to mouth and one… might say below the bread line. There is not enough water to irrigate properly. The Sundays River valley was originally calculated to irrigate 17,000 morgen. At the present time they have enough water for 6,000 morgen only. The dam has been silted. I have given hon. members an idea of what happened to the Mentz Dam. We are now doing a little patch work. If we do not do that, within a very few years, the people will be back in the same position where they were before the dam was built.’ They will just peter out, and the same applies to the Fish River valley. Lake Arthur and those dams are silting at a tremendous rate, and unless we make provision to tide the people over a number of years, they will peter out and you will have that huge valley with millions of pounds invested there and with a large population supplying an immense amount of foodstuffs, practically lying useless. 38,000 morgen were originally scheduled in those two valleys, and as the present moment they have 19,000 morgen and the position there is very precarious indeed, 50 per cent. has gone. Hon. members have asked whether this Bethulie-Fish River scheme is a feasible proposition, and they asked what I intended doing about it. I am glad to say that I have got my department to make surveys and investigations in regard to this scheme. It has to be of a very cursory nature. It is physically possible to take a canal out of the weir at Bethulie through a tunnel which will be 45 miles in length. I would ask hon. members not to whistle so soon. Let me give them the results. It is then proposed to put water into the Brank River. That scheme, from the cursory survey that had been made, will cost round about £8,000,000. It is the biggest scheme that has ever been attempted in this country. If we were to build the Sundays River Dam higher now and then build another dam later on and if we were to raise Lake Arthur and the Fish River Dam and then have to raise them again a few feet when they are silted, it would cost us £5,750,000 to do that patchwork on these three dams; that is, to raise, as we have already done, and to raise it again and to build another dam in the Fish River, which in so many years will also be silted, will cost a huge sum. That will cost £5¾ million, and when we come to the end of that we will have to face a period when we cannot raise it any more and no other dams can be built, and the whole of that money will be wasted. What do we propose to do? We propose to spend £8,000,000 and even if necessary £10,000,000 in taking the water from Bethulie, instead of doing the patchwork first and then doing it all over, which will cost £13,000,000.

Is there enough water in the Orange River?

There is enough water in the Orange River to irrigate 1,000,000 morgen.

That is what they said about the Fish River.

Is that without any dam?

There is always water, not counting flood water, which you can use throughout the year. My engineers do not take into consideration any flood water. They measured the water and say that there is enough water for the permanent irrigation of 1,000,000 morgen.

Is that after you have completed the Caledon River scheme?

Yes. Let me give you these figures. Instead of spending £5¾ million on patchwork we could spend £8,000,000 to have enough water to irrigate 80,000 morgen. That is to say, these areas which were originally scheduled at Fish River, 21,000 morgen, and at Sundays River, 17,000 morgen, can be rescheduled and we can bring in the old schedule of 38,000 morgen and have another 40,000 in addition.

It is not yet time for an election speech.

This is not politics. Is your mind to small to grasp it? It is a serious matter in which the whole country is interested.

Do we need a dam in the Orange River?

No, only a weir. You cannot build a dam there. It silts up. We will build a trap for the silt and take away only clean water.

Will the dams below not catch silt?

Let them catch it. We are only using flowing water. My hon. friend the member for Cradock (Mr. G. F. H. Bekker) has asked me whether when the water comes to Thebus, where it emerges from the tunnel, we will buy up land for settlement purposes. We shall give water to the farmers, as many as we can reach along that valley, until where it gets to the Fish River.

Will the ….

I do not hear that hon. member. I say our new policy is to give water to the farmers and so help to increase the national income of this country to an extent never dreamt of before. It will eliminate speculation. There can be no speculation because we will give it to the farmers on condition, that they use it on their farms and that they will not cut up their soil. Now, the Government is in no way committed to this Fish River scheme, but my department is busy at present and they have instructions to make a thorough and comprehensive survey of that canal and the tunnel and to give us absolute costs and full particulars of the scheme. They tell me it will take them anything up to two years to bring out all these details. At present we are short staffed and cannot send a big survey party out there, but they are busy there now and will continue until they can put before the Government a complete survey of costs.

It sounds to me like the Aspoort scheme.

I sent the commission to Aspoort and they reported against it and the scheme is now being discarded.

What will the raising of the walls of the Mentz Dam and Lake Arthur cost?

I do not know. The amounts are on the Estimates. I do not think I need spend more time on that.

The Aspoort scheme was promised for years and years.

It has been discarded now.

Bed-time stories.

Yes and it is time you went to bed. That is where you belong, or else on the muck-heap. I now come to the hon. member for Paarl (Mr. Faure).

†*Then I come to the hon. member for Paarl (Mr. Faure). He mentioned the Berg River. Other hon. members such as the hon. member for Humansdorp mentioned other rivers where in the last few years the banks have been hollowed out on a large scale and valuable land has been washed away. I do not need to mention all those rivers—there is for instance the Breede Fiver and its tributaries—but I can assure the House that this is something that is enjoying the attention of the Irrigation Department. There is also the Gamtoos River.

And the Gouritz.

Yes, there are a lot of them. I do not need to mention them all now. But it is the policy of the department to investigate these matters and to see what steps we can take to prevent the washing away of land in the future. Then the hon. member for Paarl asked whether we had succeeded in obtaining machinery and other things we shall need for irrigation projects that we may adopt shortly. We have already obtained machinery from Defence, and we shall see that nothing we require passes into the hands of others. Provision has been made for that. During the last few years we have tried to secure priority in respect of machinery and implements but we have not yet succeeded in that. We hope we shall succeed in obtaining the requisite machinery. The hon. member for Pietersburg (Mr. Naudé) spoke about drills, and I think I have already replied adequately to that. The 16 persons referred to are drill inspectors and not men who actually work the drilling machines. He asked us whether we are extending the policy about the £20. I have also disposed of that. He further asked whether we are giving preference to people in the dry areas. We have already taken away drills from areas where private drills can be worked, or where the rainfall is sufficient, despite the fact that people in those areas are dissatisfied because we are according preference to the dry areas. Then we are also going to abandon the policy of dealing with the applications in rotation according to how they are received, because it means that drills have to be transported here and there over great distances, and that is involving the State in expenditure of thousands and tens of thousands of pounds. We are not inviting any more applications. We can begin drilling and continue from the one quarter. We are going to make drills as quickly as we can and we are going to import them as quickly as we can, but it will take a little time before we are able to satisfy all our needs. Then I come to the hon. member for Vryburg (Mr. De Kock) who asked what scheme we are instituting for the special circumstances existing in the dry areas of the Union. I have previously stated that those areas have not had the privilege of big irrigation dams on which millions of pounds have been written off. All the benefit we can give those people is to provide them with drills at a cheaper rate.

Especially along the Molopo.

That is also a scheme which has been ridiculed. It was said when I announced it that it was only meant for the election period. I now announce that that scheme may immediately be brought into effect. I shall mention the external line of this area that falls specially within the Cape Province. It is Marico, Mafeking, Beaufort West, Hay, Prieska, Carnarvon, Williston, Calvinia, Van Rhynsdorp and the whole of Namaqualand to the Molopo. And then in the Transvaal behind the Zdutpansberg. The whole of that area will be proclaimed. An expert staff of geologists will indicate the sites st which we shall drill and we shall not drill at any other places. We shall endeavour to sink boreholes on a basis of two boreholes to a farm of 4,000 morgen. I, as a practical farmer, know that with one source of water a farmer cannot farm more than 2,000 morgen. Even if he has 10,000 morgen it is of no benefit to him. We shall not immediately put down the two boreholes on such a farm, but first the one, and then we shall hope to return later to make a second. The basis of payment in such an area will be that no payment will be required in respect of dry holes—“no water, no pay.”

How deep will they drill?.

To the depth that is necessary.

The Government boreholes go no deeper than 400 feet.

That is deep enough. If it is deeper then it is not economical. They may go deeper but we are not going tö make these tremendously deep holes. I should like to explain the scheme further. The basis of the payment is that no payment will be required in respect of a dry hole. Further, we shall send the drills along with their own transport so that the farmers will have nothing to do with that. All the farmer will have to attend to is the provision of water where it is required to drill. When the drilling has been completed if the farmer has not the money to pay he will be allowed ten years in which to make payment, the first instalment being due after twelve months. In the second place, money will be advanced to him for the windmill, the engine or other equipment that is necessary. That money will be advanced to him in connection wth the borehole. Then he will get money for a concrete dam and a cement trough. We will not allow him to pump into a soil dam because we know that the windmill will run night and day in that case thus wasting the underground water, while the farmer’s livestock would be infected by the water in such a dam. He will also get a loan in respect of this, and on that loan and on the cost of the borehole he will have to pay 4 per cent. That will have to be paid off in a period of ten years. The condition is that the water may not be used for irrigation. I am speaking of personal experience in Namaqualand, Kuruman, Vryburg and other parts. There you have some of the best grazing country in the Union. The carrying capacity is not high, but if there is adequate water the farmer can produce two dr three times as much.

It is almost as good as Dongola.

Do not play the fool. I am presenting an important scheme, one of the most important schemes in the countrý, and then members bring up this tomfoolery. It is one of the most important things we can adopt, and then they try to make fun of it. I said that payment will not be required in respect of dry holes, and a hole of less than 60 gallons of water an hour is regarded as a dry hole. The maximum payment will be 20s. per ft. and the basic scale will be a sliding scale on both sides which will work as follows: The deeper the hole the less the payment, and the more the water the higher becomes the payment. A hole that yields 100 gallons of water at a depth of 50 ft. will cost 11s. per ft. If the same hole goes to the depth of 150 ft. it will be 9s. 4d. I think I have now satisfactorily explained this scheme. The idea is to carry it out as quickly as possible. We shall adhere to the proposed scale for at least twelve months, until it has been tried out, and then we shall enquire whether it is possible to reduce it. Then I come to the hon. member for Humansdorp (Mr. Sauer). Let me say at once that I appreciate his attitude. It is the attitude of a gentleman. He is convinced that he accused me wrongly and he is man enough to say that and withdraw. I greatly appreciate that. In connection with the Langkloof rivers I want to say that that whole area will be included in the investigation that will be instituted by the Irrigation Commission. They will report, and I can give the hon. member the assurance that my department will undertake the task as soon as possible. We shall not allow the rich earth to be washed away and we shall see what we can do to prevent that.

†I have answered the question of the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Mr. V. G. F. Solomon) about Lake Arthur. He wanted to know when we will start raising the dam wall there. I think I told him it will be within three months.

†*The hon. member for Cradock (Mr. G. F. H. Bekker) put a question to me in connection with heightening the dam wall at Lake Arthur. I have already replied to that. I have also replied to the questions put by the hon. member for Kuruman (Mr. Olivier). He said that previously I voted against something of the sort.

I said that the scheme you are now announcing was proposed by this side two years ago, and you voted against it.

I do not know anything about that. It is my scheme and no one else’s.

†The hon. member for Port Elizabeth (North) (Mr. Johnson) asked whether it is not possible to remove silt from these dams that have silted up and whether we have consulted foreign experts to give us an estimate of whether it is possible and what it will cost. No, we have not. We have experts in this country on that subject who are as good as anyone else in the world. I want to tell the hon. member that to remove silt from these dams is practically impossible. The cost is far above the cost of building a dam. Once a big dam has silted up it has to be abandoned. He asked whether preventive measures can be taken. Yes, that can be done, and that is what we are doing above Lake Arthur today and at Vlekpoort, but unfortunately we only woke up to that fact after the dam was silted up.

†*The hon. member for Kuruman (Mr. Olivier) wanted to know whether there was co-ordination between the Department of Lands and the Department of Irrigation. I want to give him the assurance that there is the best spirit of co-operation and the best co-ordination between these two departments. I do not know what the position was in the past, but the co-operation is now as good as it can be. He stated that in the past speculation occurred at sites where dams were to be built. I know that happened, but it cannot happen under the system we now have. People saw drilling going on for foundations and then speculation occurred. At the moment that could only happen in reference to land on which we have to get servitudes, where the water is, because we provide the water to the farmers. Within a short while we shall be proceeding with schemes, and before I say where these are we shall buy the necessary land. If the land is too expensive we shall not proceed with the scheme. I think I have now answered all the questions.

Notwithstanding the Minister being so sensitive about Dongola I want to say that his statement regarding the drilling scheme is important, not only for the country as a whole but especially for those areas where it will be applied. We want to accord the idea and the policy our entire support. It is a policy we on this side announced many years ago. Now I should just like to have information from the Minister about the policy as he wishes to carry it out. He mentioned areas where he wishes to make a start, amongst others Marico and the area behind the Zoutpansberg. How far will that area behind the Zoutpansberg extend to the east and to the west?

The whole area of the Transvaal behind the Zoutpansberg range.

Will it only extend to the Molopo or right through to the Crocodile River? As far as the Transvaal is concerned the Soutpansberg only extends a certain distance and then breaks off.

All the country behind the Zoutpansberg. I shall show you the map. The whole area to the north of the mountain range.

But it breaks off, and then you get the Blouberge.

To the Limpopo.

Then it will include a part of Potgieteisrust, the northern part.

Yes, if it falls in that it will be included.

I hope so, but I should like to know from the Minister whether he intends to apply the scheme later to other dry areas in the Transvaal. Now he has included Marico in the South-West, and part of Zoutpansberg and a part of Potgietersrust in the North. In between lies the district of Rustenburg and Waterberg, and a part of Pietersburg, where the position is virtually the same. That portion is situated between the two other parts where the Minister is going to apply the scheme. I should like to know whether he eventually will also apply it to the part sandwiched between, because there appears to be no reason why it should be applied to the one part, the area in the South-West and the area in the North, while the intervening area is excluded. The rainfall is much the same there and the need for water is just as great. I shall therefore be glad if the Minister can give a little more information on that. As far as drills are concerned, the scheme will be a concession to people’ who utilise Government drills. Under the existing regulations where Government drills are used if the first hole is a dry hole payment is not made.

To an amount of £70 if a Government drill is used.

That undoubtedly helps. But now we come to people who want to utilise private drills. A man does this not from free choice but because he has no alternative. The Minister has now told us there is a great shortage of Government drills and that there are about 3,000 applications on the waiting list. It will probably be a couple of years before that list has been dealt with. The people who are not on the waiting list have to resort to private drills. Now you have the farms that are adjacent between A. and B. A. is on the waiting list and may perhaps get the Government drill and get it on favourable conditions. B is at the end of the list, or he has not yet made application. He can get no assistance for the next few years; but he needs water. So he has to utilise a private drill. Why should such a difference be made between A and B as far as State assistance is concerned, because if B utilises a private drill he has not in the first place the advantage of being exempted to the extent of £70 in respect of a dry hole, and as far as the subsidy is concerned it can only reach a maximum of £20. A difference is made here between one farmer and the other, between the one who can get a Government drill and the other who is obliged, in present circumstances to make use of a private drill. A distinction is drawn in the degree of State assistance which is not justified, because if the State, and rightly, adopts the attitude that the providing of water by means of boreholes has really become a national matter, in the same way as the construction of irrigation schemes, the Minister cannot justify assisting one farmer under such favourable conditions and not assisting the other farmer at all purely and simply because he is unable to make use of Government drills owing to the shortage. I want to ask the hon. Minister to take into consideration whether he cannot draw up regulations that help is accorded them of the same nature. Apart from the subsidy the Minister has stated he admits that the farmers, under the circumstances, will not only be obliged to utilise private drills but that the State drills will encourage them to use private drills because the Government has not enough to go round. Now the Minister stated further that the Government is itself making drilling machines, and now I should like to draw attention further to a point I have already brought to the notice of the Minister’s Department in correspondence, namely that a number of private drilling machines have been put out of commission because they could not get the necessary parts. Some have been worn out and they are unable to get the parts needed to repair the machines. As the Minister is now manufacturing drilling machines I want to ask whether the Department will not assist in this connection and make parts, so that these drilling machines will no longer stand idle. If the parts can be provided to the private drill owners not only will the owners of the machines be assisted but the farmers who are dependent on these private drills will be helped as well. I hope the Minister will be in a position to come to their assistance in this connection. It will help appreciably to relieve the position. I should like to speak further on this subject, and accordingly I move—

Agreed to.

House Resumed:

The CHAIRMAN reported progress and asked leave to sit again; House to resume in Committee on 22nd May.