May I avail myself of the privilege to speak for half an hour? I should like to say a few words in reference to State support for our universities. I do not think it is necessary at this stage to say anything in connection with the importance of our universities in the national life. The university is the cultural centre from which must emerge the people who will be the leaders in the various spheres in the national life, and it is consequently necessary that proper provision should be made for the training that they will receive and that the institutions themselves will receive every possible support to give this training to the students in the best manner possible. In the past the State realised the responsibility resting on it and it has contributed to the provision of the necessary facilities for training at our universities. A variable formula of State support was applied. At the commencement the support was based on expenditure, the approved expenditure of the institution itself, and as may be understood, this is a system that demands very careful supervision, otherwise it can easily be abused by a university. The principle of State support being based on expenditure was later on abolished and replaced by another and much sounder principle, namely to take the income of the university itself as a basis for the support that the State should give. Under its own income the principal factor is of course fees paid by the students, but it also included other income which was not derived from students’ fees. Within the last-mentioned general principle alterations have been made from time to time, but the principle remained of according support to these institutions on a basis of their own revenues. It appeared in the past, however, that this principle and the various formulas that were framed on it suffered shipwreck from time to time, and it did not fufil the requirements it should fulfil. The practical result was if I may take the history of the past 20 years and the State support that was given in the last 20 years, that in 1925 the Government contributed per student the amount of about £56.3 per student and in 1943 the amount fell to £38.5. The amount contributed by the Government thus fell in a period of 20 years by about £18 per student per year.

To all universities?

Yes, I am not talking of any particular institution, but of the universities in general. I should like to point out that from 1920 to 1939 State support for lower education instead of falling actually rose from about £18 to £21 per student in other words, while the support per student that the State gave increased in respect of lower education it actually dropped in the case of higher education. This does not signify that the cost of instruction per student was lessened. It is peculiar when one goes into the figures to find that the average expenditure on instruction per student in South Africa for the last 20 years has remained more or less constant. Apart from quarters, the costs connected with instruction have been between £90 and £100 per student per year. But now the Government has reduced its contributions by £18, and the question is where have the universities obtained the money to make up the difference occasioned by the reduction of the Government contributions, and the answer to that is that it was obtained from the increase of their own revenues, their own revenues in the widest sense of the term. But it was also found that their own revenues per student, apart from fees, also remained more or less constant. In other words, the increase of then own revenues just about kept pace with the development and expansion of the univer sities so that their own revenues per student, apart from fees, remained more or less constant. The £18 is thus not obtained from the Government; the Government contributed £18 less. It was also not obtained from their revenues, which remained more or less level, apart from fees, and we find therefore that the greater portion of the deficit in the past 20 years of £18 per student was obtained from fees that the students had to pay for their instruction. I am again taking South Africa as a whole, and the fees rose from about £25.1 per student per year to £41.2 per student per year. The position is thus that while in 1911 the State paid £2.4 for every £ paid by the universities out of their own revenues, plus fees it fell in 1920 to £1.18 for every £, and in 1930 to £1.6 for every £, and in 1943 it fell to 13s. for every £ that was provided by the universities themselves. With these figures—I mention them only as an introduction—I think one can say that the development of higher education which has been amazing in the past 20 years, has not been defrayed by the State but that the State has actually reduced its support per student, and thus one must accept that the actual development that has occurred in the past 20 years is borne by the increased fees that the students have had to pay. But the development has also been financed through economising on staff in the period of the last 20 years, perhaps not so much in numbers as that they have not received the proper remuneration they are entitled to. They have not received the increase they should in fairness have received. Also the capital expenditure has not been what it should be in view of the increase in the number of students. It is the sort of secret reserves that the university applies to keep its head above water, and these have been applied in the past 20 years to the fullest extent. Only in this manner has it been possible for the development that has occurred in the past 20 years to take place. But these secret reserves have in a great measure been exhausted, and I fear that the position has now become very serious for our country, and if we want to have a sound continuance and development of our university training, serious steps should be taken in this connection. Commissions have been appointed from time to time to investigate the matter, and one of the most important was the Adamson Commission that instituted an enquiry in 1933 and laid down the formula that was regarded as satisfactory to make provision for the future, and to take into account reasonable expansion. But unfortunately this commission based its findings on certain presumptions, especially three presumptions, and these three important presumptions turned out in the course of time to be wrong. The first presumption of the commission was that as far as numbers were concerned university education had reached its peak in 1933 and that there would be no noteworthy increase in the number of the students after 1933. In this respect I need only quote from the latest report, that of the Du Toit Commission, that shows that the number of students actually increased from 7,465 in 1933 to 13,632 in 1943. The Adamson Commission believed that the peak had been reached, but they were hopelessly wrong in that respect. They also assumed that the normal peak for each individual institution would be more or less 2,000. Unfortunately this did not occur either. There are institutions with well over 2,000 students and up to almost 3,000 students. Then they also accepted that the cost per student would fall in proportion to the increase in number of students. Unfortunately it has transpired that this also is not the case, and in the report of the Du Toit Commission it is stated, on page 6, in this connection that though it is generally presumed the increase in the number of students leads to a reduction in the cost per student this appears to be an erroneous presumption. Expenditure seems to rise in proportion to the increase in the number of students and there is no reduction in proportion to the increase in the number of students. Consequently the increase in the number of students does not signify a reduction in the cost per student. The costs have remained fairly constant, and the number of staff according to the report remain more or less constant, namely, one more or less to each ten students. That ratio has remained more or less constant throughout the period. Because these presumptions that the Adamson Commission took as a basis proved to be erroneous it is not suprising that the larger universities, especially such as those at Cape Town and on the Witwatersrand, got into financial difficulties in the meantime and the Government had from time to time to make special provision for those larger universities. They proposed a ceiling for the universities and those larger universities were later on driven up to the ceiling. There were no funds available for development, and for quite a few years they were unable to obtain further funds for development purposes. They became involved in difficulties and from time to time the Government had to step in and make special provision in their case. That is more or less the historical background of the problem. But now I want to go further. The Minister recently appointed a commission, the Du Toit Commission, of which Dr. Du Toit of Onderstepoort was the chairman, and serving on the commission were Mr. Walmsley and Mr. J. E. Van Zyl. The commission presented a very useful report and they made certain recommendations in respect of the financing of universities by the State in the future. The Government adopted those recommendations to a certain degree and to a certain extent they modified them. I would just say this, that the basis that the commission recommended was the old basis of a subsidy which was regulated on revenue plus—and this was a novelty—plus an amount in connection with the buildings that were required. The Minister, as far as I can understand, accepted the first part, with modifications in the scale, but he accepted the principle of a subsidy based on their own revenues.

The revision was only to simplify the scale.

The alteration was in order to have fewer steps in the scale. The commission recommended more steps in the scale, and the Minister eliminated a number of the intermediate steps. But then the Minister instead of taking the basis of the buildings took another basis, namely, a per capita allowance in respect of the students in each institution, and this was also graded. It began with the amount of £12 per student and it fell later to £6 per student. This is the minimum. It depends, of course, on the number of the students. For the first 1,000 it is £12; for the following 500 it is £11; for the following 500 it is £10; and for the following 500 it is £8. And after that it is £6 per student. He thus effected this alteration; instead of the involved basis including buildings he accepted this per capita contribution, and I think we can congratulate the Minister on the introduction of this much simpler system. The only criticism I want to offer on that is that possibly the steps are too big in respect of certain centres. There is too much play. I should prefer to have seen that there was not such a big drop as from £12 to £6 from the highest to the lowest step. I should like to have seen smaller space between the maximum and minimum. I think that £12 and £9 would perhaps have been more satisfactory. But the danger of a per capita grant is always that the university endeavours to increase its numbers and that they enrol all sorts of part-time students who ought not really to be classified as students. But as the number of students is not exclusively the basis of the State’s contribution, that danger has been to a large degree eliminated. It is perfectly clear that with this basis the Minister has accepted there is a measure of relief. The amount that has been made available for the universities as a whole is about £80,000, more than they would have got under the old formula. This is certainly a relief, but then I want to put the question to the Minister: Although it brings relief how long will that relief last? How long will it make provision for reasonable expansion in the future? And I want to bring a few points to the notice of the Minister. Even if one accepts that there will be no increase in the number of students and that there will be no growth in the size of the staff if one accepts that the numbers will remain sationary, then I maintain that this formula that the Minister has set up will appear to be inadequate in six, seven or eight years. I only want to say that with the framing of this formula both as regards the Du Toit Commission and the Minister’s estimate, apparently no provision has been made for some essential things. There is in the first place the question of automatic salary increments for which the institutions are contractually responsible. Their lecturing staff are placed on a scale. Every year there is a normal increment, and I want to say that if one takes that normal increment into consideration even though no new appointments are made—unfortunately I have not the figures in reference to all universities but I have the figures for one university—the additional disbursements in respect of salaries will, in 1946, be £2,251, and in 1949 it will be £8,438. This presupposes that there will be no new appointments, that is to say it is only the normal increments of the present staff, and in 1953 that will be almost £11,000. Under this new formula the amount that they will receive on the existing figures will be about £8,000 more than they are receiving this year. I began with 1946 and they will receive in 1946 only about £8.000 more than they got in 1945. Then this means that in 1949 you will already have the position that the relief they will be getting here will be entirely absorbed by the normal increments of the present professors and staff, even if there is no expansion.

There is also likely to be an increase in students’ fees.

We have found that when there is an increase in the number of students it means an augmentation of the staff, and that ratio of ten to one is more or less maintained. Now I want to go further and ask the Minister, has it been taken into consideration, for example, that there is the question not only of the normal and automatic salary increments but also necessary capital expenditure which is now in arrears in consequence of the war. For five years all building plans have had to be suspended. The institutions are quite unable to proceed with them. There is a tremendous amount of leeway that has now to be made up. This commission says very emphatically—

The position is that for five years they have not been able to make proper provision for their present numbers. It is necessary to make considerable provision in order to secure adequate accommodation for the present numbers. That accommodation has been neglected as a result of the fact that for five years practically no building programme could be carried out. This formula also takes no account of that.

But this formula is not intended to take that into account.

That is quite right. It is not for capital, but if you have capital expenditure you have to pay interest on it, and that comes out of the formula; and you have not only to pay interest but you also have to pay out for redemption of your capital debt. In the report of this commission it is clearly hinted that the salaries that are paid to the professors and staff of the universities are inadequate, and a definite recommendation is made regarding professors’ salaries. I accept that the other salaries should stand on the same basis in comparison with the professors’ salaries; that is to say, an increase of about 10 per cent. to 20 per cent. The salary increase proposed here in the case of the smaller universities is 20 per cent. In this connection, at the moment £700,000 is being paid in salaries; 20 per cent. of that would be £140,000; that is in respect of salary increments that are here recommended; and the Minister and the Commission make provision through their formula for an increase of only about £80,000. Consequently this recommendation cannot be considered satisfactory. When they made the recommendation they did not take into account what it would cost, and the formula paid no regard to the fact that if these increases were ratified this formula would be absolutely inadequate. They here made a recommendation for an increase, and the hon. Minister will agree with me that if this recommendation is carried into effect it means, even if there is no augmentation of staff, that insufficient provision has been made to meet the cost of these salary increments. This is the position today. But there is another important aspect, namely, that no provision is made for the development of research services. This is of course one of the most important functions of the university today. As a result of the excessive amount of work that the professors have to do today they have had no opportunity to participate fully in research work. But research work also entails buildings and equipment, and no provision is made for them. Another important thing for which no provision is made is better pension conditions for the members of the university staffs. They are under a system in which a certain contribution is made by the Government—4½ per cent. by the Government, 1½ per cent. by the board and 6 per cent. by the staff. With the total 12 per cent. a policy is purchased and paid out when the person has reached the age of 60. But that is hopelessly inadequate, and one finds that to enable them to exist professors have to carry on until they are well over 60. There is no inducement for them to retire on pension because the pension is altogether inadequate. I say that no provision is made for these things and I fear the formula now laid down will, in the course of a few years, again lead to a recurrence of the position that was produced by formulas in the past. We shall again find that the larger universities are being pressed up to the ceiling. They will not be able to undertake proper expansion, and they will not have the opportunity they have had in the past to apply their reserves for this purpose. The fees are today as high as they can be. I think that the average revenue from fees is £40 a year. At one university it is already almost £60 that has to be paid by students in fees. There is consequently not much margin for an increase in fees. I maintain the ideal to which the Minister should strive should be to evolve a formula that will comply with the following requirements. In the first place it should give security for the future for the institution. The university ought to be in a position to know what tomorrow and the future will bring. They should not have to live from hand to mouth. In the second place, it should be a formula that will protect the Treasury against unreasonable disbursements, so that there shall not be any waste of money. In the third place, it should be a formula that permits of reasonable development and expansion with due regard to the payment of better salaries to the staff and the professors, as recommended by the Du Toit Commission, in order to attract and retain the most efficient staff, and that also takes into account that provision must be made for buildings and equipment and bears in mind the fact that the institution is committed to contractual salary increments. I think the manner in which this can be obtained is to determine what the possibilities of student enrolment are for each institution. For this it is necessary that the formula should have a sort of curve that will take into account expansion, but with a conservative influence on it, a curve that will not hold up all development but which will assure the institution support from the State in relation to its expansion. I fear if one contémplates the system here laid down it is not a formula that fulfils these demands, and accordingly I should like the Minister to review the whole matter and see whether these reasonable requirements of an ideal formula cannot be satisfied by drawing up another and a better one.

I think it will be as well if I replied immediately to the speech made by the hon. member for Fauresmith (Dr. Dönges). I shall not reply now to the other points that have been mentioned during the debate. There is likely to be further discussion and I shall reply later. But the point that has now been mentioned is, of course, a very important point. At the outset I wish to express my appreciation of the spirit in which the hon. member has presented this matter. Actually there is very little he has said with which I can really differ. He has put the historical side of the matter from a purely objective angle, and the course of action he desires to be taken is virtually the same as the course I am attempting to follow. In the first place I just want to say that the Adamson Committee to which he has referred did in fact proceed from the assumption that an increased number of students would be accompanied by a lower average expenditure per student, and I think that really would have happened were it not for the war. The war increased expenditure to a certain extent, and apart from ’that there would in all probability have been a reduction in the expenditure.

But in 1939 the expenditure was more or less between £90 and £100, even before the war and after the Adamson Report.

But I think the tendency was then in the direction of a decline, but in any case I do not regard that as a very important point. We begin, it is true, with the recommendation of the Adamson Committee. They proposed a certain formula and we modified that formula in certain respects, but in the main we followed the recommendations of the Adamson Committee. One of the modifications that was introduced was in connection with the two big universities for whom we had fixed a ceiling of £100,000. My hon. friend said rightly that the objection to the carrying out of the Adamson formula in the main actually came only from those universities, especially from the University of the Witwatersrand, and to a lesser extent from the University of Cape Town. But apparently as far as I can judge there was no general dissatisfaction with the working of the formula before the appointment of the Du Toit Committee. Apparently the institutions were on the whole satisfied, with the exception of those two big universities to which I have referred, which were not treated strictly according to the recommendation of the Adamson Committee. In any case it appeared that the position, at least as far as those universities were concerned, was unsatisfactory, and also in regard to the other universities, although they did not say so, and for that reason I appointed the Du Toit Committee to go into the position in regard to all the universities. If the representations particularly of the University of the Witwatersrand were correct, one could only deduce from them that the other universities were also receiving too little. For that reason I appointed the committee. The committee did its work very thoroughly and as a result of the work of the committee it appeared that not only those two big universities but that universities, as a whole, had reason to expect an improvement. The committee consequently made certain recommendations, and in the main we followed the recommendations of that committee. My hon. friend welcomed the relief that was brought by the acceptance of the report, but he cast doubt on whether the formula we adopted can be regarded as a permanent solution of the matter, and he also asked whether the committee took into account certain aspects of the matter Well, I do not regard this as a permanent solution of the question. The committee itself did not regard it as a permanent solution, and I doubt whether you will ever be able to find a formula that will furnish a permanent solution of the question. It is very desirable as my hon. friend said at the end, to apply a formula that will grant security for the future to the universities, and that will protect the Treasury and make proper provision for expansion. That is very desirable, but you cannot get away from this; circumstances change from time ‘ to time, and a formula that today compliës with those directions will in 10 years’ time probably appear to be unsatisfactory.

Not if you have the right curves.

It is very easy for some of our sciéntific people to draw curves, but in my experience a curve of that sort works very well for a couple of years, but no longer. You have institutions that do not develop along curves. New faculties are created, and as a result of that the curves no longer apply to that institution. Consequently, in practice you must have more elasticity than is allowed by a permanent formula. I have stated that the committee took into account the fact that they could not recommend a permanent formula, and the committee also took into account many of the other questions to which my hon. friend referred, for instance in regard to extraordinary expenditure for equipment after the war they recommended special provision should be made. That does not come out of the general purposes grant. But they recommend that our system should in that connection be applied more generously in the future.

What about interest?

Of course interest comes out of that. Also in regard to the provident funds, which make provision for university staff, they recommended that a special investigation should be made into that matter and into the desirability of possibly making alterations in the regulations of the funds as they stand today.

Did you accept that?

We accepted that, and a special committee of experts was ’ appointed to go into the question. I believe they have already commenced work. Yes, they have started work. Consequently this matter has not been lost sight of, and the Du Toit Committee also took it into account. But I return now to what I said in connection with the general opinion of the committee in regard to the future. The committee at the conclusion of its report reverted to the question of further provision. It virtually said that what we suggest here is something that will meet the present position, but that regard must be had to the future, and the committee, in my opinion, made a very good recommendation. They recommended that the Minister should appoint a permanent advisory committee. I return now to what I said at the outset. We as a Department were not aware of the fact that the formula we were following had operated unfairly in regard to the other institutions with the exception of Cape Town and the Witwatersrand. There was no permanent means whereby the position could be brought to our attention, and I think this influenced this committee and they recommended—I think the suggestion came from one of the universities—that a permanent body should be appointed, a small body, an advisory body in relation to university affairs. They then described what the functions of that committee should be. Unfortunately I have only the English report, and I must quote in English—

1. (a) Examining proposals from any institution for the creation of new faculties, departments or chairs;
2. (b) examining all regulations for the improvements of scales of salary;
3. (c) examining all proposals for the erection of new buildings;
4. (d) examining and reviewing from time to time, if necessary, the basis of State subsidy, and
5. (e) any other matters which the Minister might wish to refer to it.

The committee thus very clearly did not feel they had permanently solved the problem. They made recommendations for dealing with the matter as it stood at that time, but the committee saw, especially bearing in mind the uncertainty of war conditions, that considerable alteration might have to be made, and for that reason they recommended the appointment of a permanent advisory committee that would also have the responsibility of continuously bearing in mind the new formula that the Du Toit Committee recommended, and to make recommendations in connection with the revision of it. That recommendation was also accepted by us.

Was the committee appointed then?

We did appoint such a committee.

A permanent committee?

Well, the intention is to make it a permanent body, but in the first place in order to gain some little experience we appointed it on a temporary basis. Some of the members are not sure whether they will be able to serve permanently on it.

Are they part-time?

Yes, of course. There is not enough to occupy these people full time. It is naturally difficult to find people for such a committee who are absolutely detached from the universities, and my hon. friend will realise that it is desirable to avoid the appearance of possible preference. I think we have found such people. The men who have been appointed are Senator Brookes, who for a long period was a professor himself, and who still is connected with the University of South Africa, but who is not actually involved in these financial questions; then there is Prof. Duminy, who is now principal of the Pretoria Technical College, and Mr. Van Zyl, Under-Secretary to the Union Education Department, who is shortly retiring from this post. Mr. Van Zyl has not been appointed because he is Under-Secretary but in view of his great knowledge and personal experience of these matters, and I hope I shall still be able to utilise Mr. Van Zyl’s services in this capacity after he will, in the course of this year, have unfortunately terminated his permanent connection with the Department. Thus we are actually working in the direction my hon. friend desires. We have accepted this recommendation as something temporary, as something that solves the problem temporarily. The whole question will now receive attention permanently and not just the attention of the Minister as in the past but the attention of the advisory committee, whose work it will be to keep the matter continuously under review. I believe that in this case we have handled the matter properly.

It is just a question of whether provision is made for automatic salary increments.

I believe that the Du Toit Committee did actually take that into account. But if they did not take it into account the new committee will deal with it as one of the factors that must be taken into review. I do not believe that will be lost sight of.

†I am not going to deal now with all the points raised, but as I see that the hon. member for Berea (Mr. Sullivan) is in a hurry to get a reply to his question, let me deal with that now, and then come back to the other points raised later on in the debate. I shall not reply to the other points because it may be that some of the members who spoke may want to speak again, and it will probably save time if I do not reply to them now. The hon. member for Berea made the point that the time had arrived for the appointment of a commission to investigate the whole question of education in South Africa. I have a great deal of sympathy with the view of the hon. member but I always have to take into account the fact that under our constitution education, other than higher education, has been assigned to the Provinces. It is one of their main functions, and as Minister of Education, I have been told fairly clearly that I must keep off the grass.

Mr. ACUTT Hear, hear.

My hon. friend says hear, hear. He is one of the people who have told me to keep off the grass; but I think it will be admitted by all my provincial friends that I have acted correctly in regard to provincial education and have never attempted to intrude upon provincial educational affairs in my capacity as Minister of Education. Through the Consultative Committee we have tried to secure co-operation and to a considerable extent we have succeeded, but there are many big matters in which one still has the position that the Provinces can go their own way. They are the masters in their own house and they formulate their own policy. From the purely national point of view I agree that that is not desirable. It would be desirable to have a national system of education even if it was administered by local bodies. But that is not the constitutional position in South Africa today, and I have to act in accordance with the constitutional position. Now my hon. friend asks whether a commission can not be appointed to review the whole position. I want to tell him this. In 1943 a resolution in favour of appointing such a commission was actually passed by one of the Provincial Councils. The Cape Provincial Council asked the Administrator, in co-operation with the other provinces, to press the Minister of Education to appoint a commission to examine the whole system of education. That is the kind of commission my hon. friend desires. So the initiative came from one of the provinces. But of course one could not act merely on the request of one province only. The request had to be considered by the other provinces, and so the matter was raised at the next meeting of the Consultative Committee, on which all the provinces are represented, but there it became quite clear that the other provinces were not prepared to agree; and the province which took the lead in disagreeing was the very province from which my hon. friend comes, so perhaps he can still do some missionary work in that province in that regard. It was the Administrator of Natal who took the lead in disagreeing, and that being so, and there being that disagreement, it was not possible for me as Minister of Education to proceed further with that matter. That is my difficulty in the way of advancing along those lines. Since then it has been possible to reach agreement with the provinces on one important aspect of the matter, an aspect of the matter which from the administrational point of view concerns the Union Education Department, namely the question of vocational and technical education and there I have succeeded in obtaining the consent of the provinces for the appointment of a commission. That commission was recently appointed and has started its work. That was done with the co-operation of the provinces, but I cannot go further, as my learned friend suggests, and appoint a commission to investigate the whole matter of education against the wishes of the provinces; that would be looking for trouble. The answer will immediately come ‘from Natal that they have had their own commissions and have investigated these matters thoroughly, and they are continuing to investigate, and that I, as Minister of Education, have nothing to do with that and must not concern myself with it. That is why I regret that I cannot hold out any prospect at the moment of being able to act along the lines suggested by my hon. friend.

I am very glad that I did not get in before the Minister, because of the statement that he has now made that a commission has been appointed to enquire into the subject of vocational training. I wanted to raise the question of vocational education because that, as well as education generally, is very far behind at the present moment. We have the report of the Social and Economic Planning Council in which they indicated not only by way of figures, but generally from the effect on the development of this country, how much leeway we have to make up on the subject not only of general education, but of vocational education. They summarise the position of vocational education by saying—

And in view of the fact that all sides of the House and all sections of the population today are clamouring repeatedly for the need of developing our industries in this country and in view of the fact that we have heard from many industrialists about the existing shortage of skilled men, it is imperative that steps should be taken as soon as possible, to train as many skilled men as possible in the Union, and I have no doubt that the commision to which the Minister referred will take that aspect into consideration. But there is another aspect to be considered: I do not know to what extent that commission will be able to deal with it. Nor do I think it is necessary for the Minister to wait for a report of the commission on that aspect. It is the question of the fees that have to be paid in technical colleges for vocational training. After all, the majority of the boys and girls who attend these vocational training schools, do not come from the more prosperous section of the population, and to them the question of fees is of considerable importance. It is regrettable that for a number of years now we have had this system by which these boys and girls, or their parents, have to pay for vocational training when attending technical colleges. In the past we—and I speak only from the point of view of the Transvaal—had in the Transvaal a system of educational training in the technical colleges under which tuition was free, and some years ago, during the périod of the Pact Government, the present Leader of the Opposition, as Minister of Education, in his desire to bring about uniformity at the time, instead of abolishing fees in the three other provinces for technical education, imposed fees in the Transvaal, so as to create uniformity; whereas what we needed was the abolition of fees in the other provinces. I hope that the Minister will take into consideration that problem, even before receiving the report of the commission, and consider the abolition of fees and to provide for free technical training in the technical colleges of this country. We may even consider further—and I hope there will be many technical schools in the rural areas so that children there will also have an opportunity of getting technical training— not only the question of providing for free training, but in many cases providing subsidies or bursaries to enable the parents to give these children free training for skilled occupations, by supplementing the incomes of the parents, because they are generally of the less prosperous sections of the population. I hope the Minister will not wait for the report of the commission in connection with this matter but will proceed with it at once.

When you interrupted me yesterday, Mr. Chairman— I hope unwillingly—I was dealing with the proposal to establish a medical school for Bantus at Durban. To save the time of this Committee I propose to give the essence of a memorandum I have received from the most beautiful and the most progressive city in the Union. It is nice sometimes to make statements that are non-controversial, such as the one I have just made. Durban, as a city, is extremely anxious to play a part in the solution of the problem of national health. Three public meetings have been held in connection with the establishment of a Bantu medical school. The medical profession, the Natal University College, the Municipal and Provincial Governments, the Press, Commerce and Industry are all supporting the movement for the founding of such a school, according to this memorandum, and at a meeting called by the Mayor in November, a strong committee was appointed to proceed with the raising of £100,000 for capital expenditure as soon as the Minister of Finance and Education gives the movement his blessing. I would urge upon the Minister through you, Mr. Chairman that his benediction need be no longer delayed. There is, of course, some contention that Johannesburg would be a more suitable centre for this particular educational institution, and it is being urged that the clinical facilities are better there. I just want to, prove to this Committee that this is not so. The number of out-patients treated in the Durban hospital during 1943 was 258,231, whereas the corresponding number in Johannesburg was 216,632. Similarly the number of in-patients in Durban was 36,623, whereas in Johannesburg, where perhaps they drive more carefully and there are fewer accidents, it was 20,143 in comparison. That is leaving out that excellent institution, the McCord Hospital of which Durban is so rightly proud. Then, of course, there are in Durban no less than 38 medical officers with the most senior qualifications, who are entirely qualified to form a teaching staff on a part-time or whole-time basis. I hope that will clinch the argument and that the Minister will help Durban in its project. We are very keen indeed on establishing this school at the earliest possible moment. Then I also want to mention an institution which should become a constituent college of the University of South Africa. I am alluding to Cedara, the agricultural school. We are in a peculiar position in Natal, in one respect: We are able to qualify for our Bachelor of Science degree in Hygiene, we can also qualify for that degree in Domestic Science; but we cannot qualify for it in Agriculture. That is an odd position and one which brings a loss to the Province and to the country.

Business suspended at 12.45 p.m. and resumed at 2.20 p.m.

When the clock interrupted the session just now, I was referring to the need for an agricultural faculty based on Cedara in Natal. It is a very curious fact that when the soldiers of our army were appealed to by questionnaire as to what facilities they required for training in professions, my recollection is only six men announced they wished to be trained in veterinary science. That astonishes me, because I believe from what I have read in “The Farmer” that in the Harrismith district alone 300,000 sheep died in the past two years, 200,000 in connection with excesgive rainfall and the others from poisoned feed. So I think there is a great need in that particular department of the medical faculty for increased opportunities to study, which will lead to increased supplies of veterinary surgeons. In addition, there is obviously a very great need for agricultural degree courses which shall specialise in reclamation and conservation of land irrigation and water supply, agricultural machinery, and in the organisation and management of farms. I mention this because it is not merely a good point with regard to education, but these facilities are vital for any post-war prosperity planning which we have in view. I notice that the National Research Board is provided with a sum of £5,835 for its activities. It compares very badly with the Agricultural Research Council of England, which spends £100,000 for every £1,000 we spend. I know the Minister can quite pertinently remind me that the population of England is vastly greater than ours. So it is, four times if we count as we should the non-European inhabitants of South Africa. But we can also retort, in urging much more money should be spent on research, that we have twelve times as much land to fend for as in England. I suggest there is a vast need, if we are going to have a happier world, for more money to be spent in research— agricultural and veterinary—and in the applied sciences which bear directly on industry and commerce. I was very disappointed when I looked at Department K., setting out the grants we make to those societies that undertake cultural research—

The total is only a miserable matter of something like £2,520. It surely should be fourfold.’ The time has come when we want authoritative books on these matters. We do not want little guide books or descriptive books written by people who came to South Africa for four or five weeks, but we do want authoritative literature of our own on these subjects, made by our own efforts here in South Africa. That cannot be done without the expenditure of very much more money in respect of these various cultural organisations. There is another point I would like to mention to the Minister, and it is this, the great possibilities of education through the medium of the radio. There are Sir, 350,000 registered licences issued. I suppose that would represent 1,500,000 listeners. [Time limit.]

In the short time at my disposal I wish to confine myself to B.4 and C.7. We are today voting this large amount of £112,900 for the Witwatersrand Technical College, which has really become indispensable to us in South Africa. Without that technical college it would be impossible for us to manage, but in spite of the large amount we vote yearly for that institution, and despite the fact we cannot get along without it, a large number of students have not yet come into their rights. In saying this I have principally in mind the stepmotherly treatment of the Afrikaans language at the Technical College. Here we have not to deal with a committtee or board in connection with which we have to fight incessantly for our language rights, but we are here dealing with our young sons and daughters who are preparing themselves for a future in South Africa in every sphere. Consequently the shabby treatment of Afrikaans has much significance. Their future, and the studies of hundreds of pupils, has already been hampered in South Africa, especially in the case of the Technical Department, where Afrikaans is virtually unknown. With all its various branches the Technical College on the Witwatersrand has today about 8,000 day and evening scholars, and in addition they have about 6,000 apprentices and 4,000 who are taking correspondence courses. Of this enormous number at least 50 per cent. are Afrikaans-speaking, and the signs are that in the near future the Afrikaans-speaking will actually be in an overwhelming majority there. Consequently I cannot see by what right the Afrikaans language is treated so harshly there. With the exception of evening classes at Rossmore and a dual-medium institution at Boksburg of about 100 pupils, the Afrikaans language is not recognised as a medium in any department. In many of the trades no Afrikaans at all is used. There are the electro-technical trades, engineering, fitting, carpentery and motor engineering, in connection with which not a single word of Afrikaans is used, and even in connection with the sections for art, domestic science and physical training etc. the position is in no wise different. When we come to mining the position is just as bad. I am thinking specially of a statement that was made last year in the Press. It was a statement made by the manager of the Jumpers Mine, Johannesburg. In that statement he said that matters would be different in the mining industry to what they are today if there was not so much discrimination against Afrikaans in the Technical College as is the case today, and if Afrikaans were used for the training of mine captains, controllers and so forth. Then we have the national technical certificate. The course for this certificate is regarded as the preparatory course for the work. That is taught only through the medium of English. Afrikaans is not recognised there. Now the Minister says: What about trade terms? There can not be the slightest difficulty in the college because the Chamber of Mines long ago prepared a list of mining terms in both languages, and they were made available to their mine inspectors. Just take the position of a man who has instruction for his blasting certificate. There we have the same thing. It ought not to occasion any difficulty. They have already received an extract of the regulations in Afrikaans. As far as apprentices are concerned I want to point out that the lads are obliged to take these courses, but because no provision is made for them being able to take the examinations in both official languages we have the position today that those pupils are not taking the examination. The apprentices are obliged to attend the classes, and failure to attend may result in them being brought before the court. I wonder what the position will be should one of these apprentices who is summoned advance the plea that though he was obliged to attend the classes he would not attend because he could not receive instruction in his own language. Afrikaans is harshly treated in those technical schools, and in my opinion the cause of that is largely that the board of the technical college is comprised virtually of unilingual English-speaking persons. Notwithstanding the fine words we hear from the Government regarding bilingualism we know that year after year a unilingual director is appointed in the person of Prof. John Orr. I understand that he will not now be reappointed, and I should like to know from the Minister whether a bilingual person will be appointed.

Yes.

I am glad to hear that, and I hope that he will use his influence to obtain more bilingual teachers so that Afrikaans can come into its rights at the technical college. I should like to offer a number of alternative suggestions, and the first concerns the director. I would like to suggest that the Minister should see that a bilingual director is appointed. If matters are then not rectified the work of that technical college should simply be brought under the Education Department, because we feel on the Witwatersrand that an injustice is being done to the Afrikaans-speaking youth, and we cannot allow matters to continue like that. I agree with the hon. member who stated here that our whole educational system, more especially in connection with trade instruction, and particularly the conditions at the Witwatersrand Technical College, have to undergo a complete revision. When we visit that building we see that it is completely un-Afrikaans. There is only one Afrikaans inscription in the whole of the college, and it is: “Fight for freedom and keep the iron hot”. I want to bring these few details before the notice of the Minister and I trust that he will give them sympathetic consideration. Then there is another matter that I wish to mention, and that refers to the Witwatersrand University. I wish to associate myself with what the hon. member for Brits (Mr. Potgieter) stated here yesterday evening. We know that a meeting was held in connection with the instruction of non-Europeans and it was resolved to take over the rest-room belonging to the European students for the purpose of native education in the evenings. I have a notice here from which it is quite clear that both Afrikaans-speaking and English-speaking students stood together and objected to that, but in spite of this the rest-room was used for the instruction of non-Europeans. It was used as a class-room for natives and nonEuropeans. That is something very unpleasant, and what worries me is that at the University of the Witwatersrand there is an increase in the number of nonEuropean students. If things go on like this we shall later have the native students from Fort Hare there. The University of the Witwatersrand is certainly one of the best in the country, but the policy that is followed there has only one result, and that is the wider the doors are opened for nonEuropean students the less accessible is it becoming to the European students of South Africa. [Time limit.]

I would like to avail myself of the half-hour rule. The hon. member who has just been seated has raised a very important matter, and I would like to approach this matter again from the same viewpoint as we on this side have always adopted in the past. I would like to voice our point of view while addressing a few words to the Minister in connection with this very important matter. At the beginning of the year I gave notice of a motion which I later withdrew for the reason that it could not come under discussion. The wording thereof was as follows—

We fully realise that the non-European section of the population should also enjoy university education, but we say that they should enjoy their training in separate institutions and should not sit alongside. Europeans on the same university benches. When I adopt this point of view, I am only thinking of what has been done in the past by the erection of Fort Hare for higher asked not to insist on achieving social equality with the other students. They then penetrated into official circles. If the Minister of Education follows the development at the University of Cape Town, and if he knows something about the position, he will know how the non-Europeans are trying to penetrate into the social life of students at the university. The position has become worse. Last year there was an election of the Students’ Board, and a nonEuropean was elected as a representative on the S.V.R. He was chosen also with the support of Europeans at the University of Cape Town, who deemed it just that they should obtain representation. But it was not long before that person and his associates requested more and more facilities for non-Europeans. The result was that last year a great mass-meeting of students was held. That meeting and the speeches made were not in any way based on the political aspects of the matter, but only on the traditional point of view of the Afrikaner race in the past, namely that there must be a dividing line and segregation. The European students have not a legal foot to stand on, for the non-European students can go to the university. But they had reached an agreement with the non-European students at the university that they should not insist on equality. This they call the “gentleman’s agreement” and the students of the University of Cape Town were quite satisfied with that. But as a result of the influence exerted by certain groups they have said that they demand equality. As a result thereof a big mass-meeting was held last year. I am convinced that if the Minister of Education had learned of those proceedings, he would have been very perturbed. One thing which induced me to raise this matter, was that it has been found that Afrikaans-speaking and English-speaking students stood together as one man, and they said that they were going to stand for the preservation of the old traditional principle, and that is the principle of segregation, and above all the principle of guardianship which we have practised for so many years in our country. We cannot allow that at the universities where the youth of our nation must be educated, that racial friction of this nature should occur. I am convinced that, if once again a mass-meeting should take place at the University of Cape Town, things would turn out much worse than they did last year. Challenging speeches were delivered by those who demanded equality for the non-Europeans. They placed themselves on the footing where they wanted absolute equality in the social sphere. They wanted to go to the university dances. They wanted to be enrolled in the boarding houses. They wanted to make application to be admitted to the boarding houses, and demanded complete equality as well. The students adopted a motion in which they expressed their disapproval of the non-European students’ breach of the “gentleman’s agreement”. One would have thought that everything would then have been settled and that the non-Europeans would have complied with that resolution. But what do we find? The university had scarcely opened this year when once more a demand was made for equality in every sphere. The position became uneasy and last week the S.V.R. held a meeting. I understand that the resolution which was adopted has already been read out in the House. It reflects precisely the feeling of European students at the University of Cape Town. I think that members who represent in the main that section of the Peninsula, and who perhaps have studied at this university in the past, know the feelings of the European students’ At the meeting of the S.V.R. the non-European student was asked whether he was adhering to the gentleman’s agreement of previous years. He replied in the negative, and stated that his viewpoint was that of absolute equality. The reaction to this was that a large number of the members of the S.V.R. left the meeting. The chairman remained and asked whether he persisted in that view, and when he replied that he certainly did so, the chairman also left the meeting. There was then no quorum and they could not carry on with the proceedings. I would now like to point out to the Minister of Education that this is the question which disturbs the minds of the youth of South Africa. It provokes the minds of the young people. They ask what is going to happen, and whether absolute equality between European and non-European will come at our university institutions. I am voicing the feelings of the students. I can say that I am also an Alumnus of that university. The hon. member for Cape Town (Gardens) (Dr. L. P. Bosman) is also one, and I am convinced that he shares my view that this statte of affairs cannot be tolerated any longer. We do not say that the non-European students should not be able to enjoy a university education. We say that they should have every opportunity, and if the Minister of Education tells us that it will cost £100,000 or £200,000 to erect an institution for them, we still say that it is in the interests of the youth of South Africa that it should be done, and that we as members of Parliament in the highest assembly in the country will declare our willingness to the Minister of Education to a separate university institution being erected for them. We must declare it our will that steps should be taken to erect such an institution for higher education for the non-Europeans, and it must be done now.

It must be now.

I say that it must be now or as soon as possible. The people of South Africa demand it. We must remember that there are parents in the country who are obliged to send their children to this university. Pupils who wish to take up courses in engineering and medicine must come to this institution whether the parents like it or not, and those parents demand that there should be a separate institution for non-Europeans. When one goes through the length and breadth of the country, one feels that much anxiety is felt by parents over the fact that their children must go to an institution where the non-Europeans demand equality with them. I can understand that the Minister of Education will quite possibly say that at Universities like Oxford, Cambridge, Edinbugh and London there are also non-European students and that they are educated there, and why can it not then be done here? We cannot adopt that viewpoint, for selected non-European students from the various parts of the world go to those university colleges. At one university which I know very well and where I studied myself, there were numbers and numbers of negroes and Indians, but the policy of the university was to send those non-Europeans to the various colleges and not only to one college. They are spread out among the various colleges so that they are unable to exert their influence. We cannot compare the case of England or even Holland or Germany, where non-European students are welcomed to the universities, with the position in South Africa. Here we have 2,500,000 Europeans compared with 8,000,000 non-Europeans. And it has always been our policy to act as guardians towards the non-Europeans and to treat them separately. And now that they—as a result of the circumstances which we have created for them and as a result of the opportunities which we have afforded them of enjoying primary education, as a result of the opportunities which we have given them of enjoying high school education—have also been afforded the opportunity, as the result of the interest we have taken in them, of enjoying a university education, we must maintain the position that just as the non-European in the primary school is kept apart from the European, just as he is kept apart in the high school, separate university institutions will also be erected for him where he can enjoy his training. It is absolutely essential. I would like to refer the Minister to a book “Patterns of Negro Segregation”, written by Prof. Johnson. It appears that the United States of America were faced with exactly the same problem and that they endeavoured to acquire the services of a foreigner who could regard this whole problem objectively, and they succeeded in acquiring Dr. Karl Gunnar Myrdal from Sweden to enquire into the relationship between the European and the non-European in the United States, particularly in those parts where the two races lived together with one another. It was the Carnegie Corporation of New York who instituted that enquiry in 1938, and in the foreword it is stated—

Shortly after arriving in the United States, he went back again. War broke out and he returned to his own country. But various persons were appointed to collect data in the United States and memoranda were forwarded to a central committee. The committee had to arrange the memoranda and submit them to him. He went further into the evidence in connection with these matters. The book “Patterns of Negro Segregation” contains the nucleus of a large number of volumes of manuscripts which were collected by Dr. Johnson and his staff. The memoranda which were submitted in connection with segregation in the sphere of primary and higher education are really memoranda which could also be submitted to such a committee were we to create one. It says here in the book —

I would like the House to take cognisance of the fact that reference is made here to the various states where there is a mixed population, and they speak here of absolute racial segregation in some cases. Now I come to the schools in the south particularly where you have exactly the same problem as we have here, and I will read this—

That is the position there and here we are confronted with the same development. We are busy voting hundreds of pounds to provide educational facilities for nonEuropeans. If we want to preserve our race, if we want to preserve our European civilisation, it is our duty to enforce this discrimination in our schools. I do not want to keep the House any longer, but I would still like to read this—

They go even so far in America that where there are children who are far from a negro school, they place buses at their disposal to transport the negro children to the negro school. This is a summary—

This is the nucleus of our representations to the Minister. We say that it is administrative, that he as Minister of Education can approach the university authorities and ask them to establish separate educational facilities there for the non-Europeans. You can, for example, have a non-European establishment under the Board of the University of Cape Town. I am thinking of an institution such as Sonnebloem where today non-European teachers are trained. That can be the foundation for the future development of a university institution for non-Europeans in the Western Province. [Time limit.]

I should like to take the hon. Minister back to the debate of last year in connection with mothertongue education. A resolution was then taken to the effect that the child in the earlier stage of his school instruction should be educated through the medium of his mothertongue. That motion was proposed by the Rt. Hon. the Prime Minister and seconded by the hon. member for Vryheid (Dr. Steenkamp), and it was also strongly advocated by the Minister of Education himself. Conseqeuntly we can say that the whole of the House of Assembly stood as one man for the principle of mothertongue education. But what do we find now? Before we come to that, however, I should like to refer the Minister to something else, namely that he is a member and vice chairman of the Inter-Provincial Board of Education.

Are you referring to the Consultative Inter-Provincial Committee? It is not an education board.

Yes, I mean the board on which the four Administrators are members and the Minister of External Affairs and the Secretary for Education ….

No, Officials are not members of it.

In any case they are advisory members.

No, they are only present as officials.

In any case the board also discusses educational matters especially inter-provincial education matters. Now I come back to the fact that of the four provinces three, together with this House, wish to carry through the motion on mother-tongue education, but’ there is one province not doing this, namely Natal. The Minister will say that it does not fall under him, but he is a member of the Inter-Provincial. Committee ….

The hon. member may not discuss this matter on this vote.

I merely want the Minister to use his influence. I should like to learn from the Minister whether he would agree to us bringing up the matter under the Bill relating to subsidies for the provinces.

It is not for me to assent to that, but Mr. Speaker. But personally I believe that it would fall within the compass of that Bill.

Then we will discuss it there later on. In connection with higher education I should like to state clearly that if ever there was chaos and disorganisation it is in connection with higher education, in comparison with secondary education and lower education. There is no co-ordination, and as the hon. member for Berea (Mr. Sullivan) has stated, a measure of co-ordination is necessary.

Are you referring now to higher education or primary education?

It is not only higher education. Under the Department of Union Education there are various branches of higher education, but there are also the industrial, schools and trades schools ’and even nursery schools. This is primary education, but yet it falls under the Minister.

Under the provisions of the Act it falls under higher education.

But it falls under your administration.

Correct.

Take, for instance, a village on the platteland. You get a domestic science school with about 40 children and it falls under the Minister of Education. They have a secretary and there are four or five teachers, or about eight children per teacher. Then you have a high school in the same village with nine or ten teachers, and about 200 children, but no secretary. In the school that falls under the Union Department you get free education, while books and everything else are provided; at the secondary school the children have to pay. I do not want to deal with primary education here, but I am only making a comparison between the two. It indicates how necessary it is to have an investigation with a view to effecting co-ordination. Take the question of the training of teachers. There you also have disorganisation. At the universities teachers are trained, that is quite correct. On the other hand, there are provincial institutions training teachers. Chaos and lack of co-ordination! Take, for instance, Pretoria or Cape Town or Potchefstroom. Teachers are trained there, also at the universities. In Canada they tackle the matter entirely differently. Higher education is on the one side and primary education on the other side. They are permanently separated, but here you have an involved state of affairs so that you do not know where you are. I should like to direct the Minister’s attention to the need for a national register of teachers. I think the Minister has already given attention to that. It is not so much a matter for the provinces as for the Minister of Education. The teaching profession ought to have had a national register long ago, and they have long urged the need for it. At the moment the status of the teachers is a very Curious one. They are tossed hither and thither between the provinces and the Union Department of Education. Let there be a national register in which the standard of the teacher can be determined, his qualifications his certificates, etc., so that there will be a proper classification and they will know where they are. Then I want to say something about the nursery schools. How is the language question arranged there? What supervision is there to ensure due consideration being given to the medium of education? Is the principle of mother-tongue education being maintained? It is a very important place for the maintenance of mother-tongue education. What prospect is there of it happening properly in the future and of there being supervision? It is a matter of great importance to us. Reference has already been made to technical education. We have a considerable number of technical schools for which we have to vote funds. With the exception of one or two they have all an absolutely English bias. We know they are statutory bodies and they exist under certain laws, but still the Minister can use his influence. We want to point out that it is very important he should ensure that the mother-tongue medium is maintained. [Time limit.]

I should like to invite the attention of the Minister for a moment to the instruction of certain classes of persons for whom no effective provision has hitherto been made. Instruction in certain technical callings, such as for example medicine, falls of course under the Union Education Department. But when we come to the training of nurses we find that hitherto no provision has been made for colleges for nurses, and as a result the training is absolutely unsuitable in the hospitals where the nurses work. Now the request is being made for training schools for the nurses, of which we shall require about six in the first place, where they will take a course before they commence on practical instruction; not only this but there should be an institution where they could also have second and third year instruction. The Nurses’ Council has naturally turned to the provincial administrations, and it is not quite clear to me that it is really a matter for the provincial administrations. It is true they will continue to have a section of the hospitals under them, but there are hospitals under the Union Government such as mental hospitals and other hospitals where nurses are also used and trained. The question should be decided shortly. In the first place I want to ask the Minister—and I mention it here because the Union Education Vote also disposes of much more money than the provinces—in the first place I should like to ask whether in conformity with technical colleges and similar institutions we should not rather place nursing colleges under the Union Department of Education. I should like to see this. It will also simplify the matter, because the nurses are going to institutions in the four provinces and you will have uniformity of training. I think thus that the matter should fall under the Union Department. But whether it falls under it or not in any case the Union Department will have to proffer advice in the matter, and whatever arrangement is made it should be efficient and the necessary funds should be found for it. Last year I alluded to the absence of training for chemists. The matter is becoming more and more urgent.

It will require legislation.

We shall have to create opportunities for the training of chemists and provision should be made that later for example they will only have to work for a period of six months with chemists as part of their training. Unfortunately I cannot go further into that, as it demands legislation, but I should like again to draw attention to the fact that the time has arrived to make provision for that. In the light of the development that has occurred in reference to public health and the demands that are being made. I should like to identify myself with the request that we should take into consideration the establishment of a fourth medical school, but I would rather associate myself with the hon. member for Gordonia (Mr. J. H. Conradie) that the fourth school should be a nonEuropean medical school. The difficulty is serious both in Cape Town and in Johannesburg. One feels uneasy and sorry for the students themselves, for coloured students and native students, when they are excluded here and there from a certain course and a certain hall and certain places where instruction is being given. Why should they have to be excluded? Because public opinion is that these people should not be in the ward while Europeans are being examined. While this is admitted by the universities, by the teachers, by ourselves and by the whole country, we should make provision for the training of non-Europeans, and I would therefore urge on the Minister to consider how and when we can make provision for the training of non-European students. The Minister knows they are shut out in the Cape, they are shut out in Johannesburg and the instruction is they may not enter certain halls; and every now and again this occasions great difficulty. Let us then consider what we can do to have special instruction for them as soon as possible. I personally was in favour of Johannesburg, because I know many of the university staff there can be used for parallel instruction in an institution for non-Europeans. I want to join the hon. member for Gordonia in saying that in every respect we should as soon as possible have separate institutions for higher education, just as we have separate schools, and I hope that the Minister will take these few things into consideration.

Let me first reply to a few points which were raised a moment ago. In the first place the hon. member for Stellenbosch (Dr. Bremer) raised the matter of the training of nurses and pharmacists. As far as pharmacists are concerned, there are not only courses at the Witwatersrand Technical College and, I think, at a few other technical colleges, but also at the Potchefstroom University College, and my latest information is that at Potchefstroom very fine progress is being made, that there is a great demand and that the course is a very great success.

What about apprentices?

That does not fall under me. As far as nurses are concerned, the position is a little difficult. Up to the present the nurses have received their training primarily in nursing institutions, and in the majority of cases, those institutions are under the provinces. Up to the present, it has always been regarded as a provincial matter to make provision for the training of nurses, and I still subscribe to that policy; in any event I feel that the initiative must be taken by them. Of course, we have the position that some of these nurses are subsequently appointed in our institutions.

As coloured nurses too?

The position is the same as far as the training of teachers is concerned. Some of the teachers who are trained in our university establishments, are subsequently appointed in provincial schools. On the ether hand it does happen that teachers are appointed in our schools who were trained in institutions falling under the provinces.

As far as the nurses are concerned, they are also appointed in mental hospitals as probationer nurses.

That is true, but, of course, it is only a comparatively small proportion. The hon. member for Christiana (Mr. Brink) referred to lack of co-ordination between Union and Provincial education, and he looked a little askance at me when I said that nursery schools were also establishments of higher education. Under the Act that may be the case today. This Act was not passed by me, but was passed, I think, in 1923, and it was laid down that an institution for higher education shall be any institution which the Minister defines as such. It means therefore that the Minister can define any educational institution in the country as an insitution for higher education, and it then falls under the Minister of Education. That is done especially with a view to the technical schools and various vocational schools and domestic science schools, to which the hon. member also referred. As a result of that we have the position today that at Christiana there is an ordinary secondary school, which is a provincial school while the domestic science school is a Union school. The one institution falls under lower education as a provincial school and the other institution falls under higher education. That is the legal position. It is quite correct that there is a great deal of overlapping and difficulty. By means of the Consultative Committee of the provinces, we did bring about a certain amount of co-ordination between their institutions and our institutions, but there are still difficulties, and as I have said in this debate, I recently appointed a commission to go into all these matters in connection with technical training and vocational training. It will also go into those questions to which the hon. member for Johannesburg (West) (Mr. Tighy) referred. For example, it will have to go into the general question of the nature of the training of artisans: it will have to go into the question of the relation between the provinces and the Union Education Department, and it will also have to go into the financial implications, to which my hon. friend on the other side referred.

Will the language question also be investigated?

No, I do not think that will be investigated.

That is one of the grievances in the technical school.

I do not know whether it will fall within the scope of the commission’s enquiries. As far as nursery schools are concerned, the position is that the Union Government assisted the provinces for a few years with the erection of nursery schools by means of a subsidy, in order to make a start with the matter. But under the new subsidy basis, we will not be giving any direct subsidy. It is purely a provincial matter and the whole question will therefore fall under the provinces. Under this vote there is no further provision for nursery schools.

They will therefore fall under the provinces.

For practical purposes they have always been under the Provincial Education Department, but granted a special subsidy for that purpose, and I think it is quite correct that the provinces should deal with this matter and not we. With regard to a nationa1 register of teachers, I cannot see that it will help much unless the provinces also avail themselves of the register.

They are asking for it.

The teachers are anxious to have it, but the provincial administrations do not want it, and whenever the matter has been raised with the provinces, they have always opposed it. It will be of no avail for my Department to introduce such a register unless the provinces want to make use of it, and unless an arrangement is made for the exercise of disciplinary powers in connection with provincial teachers, it will remain a dead letter. During the course of the last year, I again discussed the question of such a register with the provincial administrations, but they could not see what purpose it would serve, and they would simply oppose it. Let me come to ah allied subject. The hon. member for Westdene (Mr. Mentz) raised the question of the technical colleges, especially the Witwatersrand Technical College. Let me explain, in the first instance, that here we are dealing with statutory bodies, created as such under the Act, and not directly administered by me. In the first place, therefore, questions such as those my hon. friend raised must be discussed with the authorities of the college. The only knowledge I have in connection with these points which were touched upon here this afternoon was gleaned from the newspapers. I read of certain complaints in the newspapers. I then ask the college authorities for their views in regard to those complaints. They then give me certain assurances. They inform me that they offer all the necessary facilities. My hon. friend denies it but that is the assurance they give me. There the matter rests. I cannot take it further. I want to suggest that some body or other which takes an interest in this question as far as technical colleges are concerned, especially since a new director has been appointed at Johannesburg, a man who is fully bilingual, a man who was born in this country, Mr. Rowe, formerly lecturer at Bloemfontein and subsequently head of the college at Pietermaritzburg, of which he made an outstanding success—I suggest that some body or other which takes an interest in this matter, should discuss the whole matter with him, and if the matter cannot be solved properly, such a body could make representations to me. But I am placed in a difficult position when these statements appear in the Press only. If a recognised body brings this question to my notice, I shall be in a much better position to go into it. Where statements were made in the Press, I went into them with the college authorities, but I had to accept their assurance that they were prepared to meet the needs where there was a demand. I suggest therefore that my hon. friend should adopt the course which I have indicated. The hon. member for Ceres (Dr. Stals) is unfortunately not in his seat at the moment. He raised the question of provision on the higher education vote for a platteland economic survey. This only refers to the salary of an outstanding professor from Greece who spent a few years in South Africa as a result of war circumstances, and in order to make it possible for him to give his services to South Africa, my Department made provision for a salary of £60 per month, payable to the University of the Witwatersrand, but in addition to that the Department of Agriculture contributed a good deal in facilitating his work, and as a result of that he has already furnished certain reports and will in the near future be able to submit a very valuable report. But it is not the full amount which appears on this vote. It is only the salary of the professor. Now I come to the most important matter which has been touched Upon, namely the question of university training facilities for non-Europeans. This matter was raised more particularly by the hon. member for Gordonia (Mr. J. H. Conradie). He laid down a principle here. I do not know whether he sufficiently took into account the practical difficulties in connection with the application of this principle. Let me just give a few illustrations. These difficulties of course flow from the fact that South Africa is a sparsely populated country with a comparatively small population, which is divided into four sections, Europeans natives, coloureds and Indians, and one must not assume that the last three sections always get on with one another. There too, we have difficulties. These four sections are spread over the whole country in various proportions. And when we come to the actual problem of providing the necessary facilities for these four sections in the various parts of the country, we come up against practical difficulties. I take it my hon. friend said that he was not opposed to granting facilities to the non-Europeans. But our difficulties begin when we come to the practical application of the principle which my hon. friend enunciated. Take the important establishment to which he referred, Fort Hare. This institution was established nearly 30 years ago. It was established as a native college for the whole of South Africa, not only for the natives in the eastern districts. The hope was expressed at that time, however, that it would also serve as a college for the non-Europeans of all parts of South Africa, but it could never fulfil the role even of a native college for all parts of South Africa. I think everyone will realise that it would have been impossible to expect the college to make provision for the needs of the coloured population in the Western Province, for example. It is not situated conveniently to make that provision. As it is, this college attracted a few coloured students, more particularly from that area. The college also attracted Indian students. But the college found that Indian students and native students did not get along very well, and the policy which the college is developing now is to discourage the further enrolment of Indian students. Hon. members will therefore appreciate the type of difficulty with which we are faced. Then we have this further difficulty in connection with the provision of facilities for the training of natives in medicine. At Fort Hare it is possible to provide a certain amount of training. Provision is being made there today for the training of natives for a degree in hygiene. But there are not sufficient facilities in the platteland for full medical training for natives or any other section. There are no adequate hospital facilities. When it became necessary therefore to make provision for full medical training for natives, Fort Hare was unable to provide that training. That indicates the type of difficulty which arises. Take the Cape Technical College for example. My hon. friend quite correctly referred to it. The college has established a specific extension for coloured persons in Cape Town, but it also has evening classes in the more remote parts, and recently it came to my notice—I did not know it—that where the college set up classes in Simonstown, a few coloured students also attended those classes. The reason for that, of course, is that it is too far for them to come to Cape Town, and they were consequently allowed to attend those classes. Take another example which illustrates the same type of difficulty. In Durban provision is being made under the Natal University College for part-time university classes for non-Europeans, more particularly Indians. As I stated in reply to a question, this provision is being made in a separate building. The Indians are altogether separate from the Europeans. These are part-time classes; they are not full-time classes. Well, what happens? I quote from reports which recently appeared—

Why? Because in certain cases these classes were situated more conveniently for European students. It will be seen therefore how difficult it is to apply everything on a strict basis of separateness in connection with the various institutions in relation to the various sections of our population. What is the desirable position in connection with this matter? The hon. member for Gordonia stated quite correctly that there was no legal ground for a university to refuse a non-European student admission on the ground of his race. I should have thought that if any university can say: “We only have room for so many students in this faculty, and we cannot therefore accept everyone”, and if the university acts in good faith in refusing admission to students, no one will be able to take the case to court. But if it can be proved that the university did not act in good faith and that a person was excluded on the ground of race or colour, the university will in all probability lose the case. My hon. friend nods assent and I, too, have always understood that to be the position.

In that case the position should be altered.

I want to go back to the first case when a non-European student applied for admission to the Witwatersrand University. I then learned as a result of legal advice which was obtained that the university could not refuse to admit him, although at that time the university was inclined to do so. There we have the position. The State created certain institutions. The universities are autonomous institutions with freedom as far as their domestic affairs are concerned, as long as they do not contravene the law, and the universities have no power under the laws—laws which were all passed before my time—to refuse admission to any student on the ground of his race or colour. If therefore we want to apply the policy which the hon. member favours, we shall have to amend the law. I think he understands that. The law will have to be amended, apparently not merely in order to give the universities the power, but to prohibit them.

In America they do it administratively.

Yes, but I do not know what the legal position is there.

Do you not think it is desirable to amend the laws?

Let us take this matter a little further. The law will have to be altered. I do not see how the State can come forward with proposals to amend the law while there are no adequate facilities for the non-European inhabitants of this country to receive university training. In Cape Town, for example, we have the difficulty to which my hon. friend referred. I am entirely opposed to the breaking of that gentleman’s agreement, to which my hon. friend referred, in connection with social equality at the university. I, too, speak as an ex-student of that institution, just like the hon. member, and I am very sorry that that matter has again been raised by the non-European students, but at the moment it is purely a matter for the students. It may be that the university authorities will later become involved in the matter. It may be that the university authorities will approach me at some future date, but at the moment it is not a matter to be dealt with by me. I can only express my personal opinion in connection with the matter, which I am quite prepared to do. But now we come to a typical difficulty in connection with this matter, something to which reference was also made a few minutes ago by the hon. member for Stellenbosch. The greatest difficulty in connection with this matter is the question of medical training. The largest number of non-European students at any university are to be found in Johannesburg. There we have the position that at the moment we cannot offer these people any other facilities. This matter was considered by a committee of which the hon. member for Stellenbosch was a member. I appointed him more particularly in his capacity as chairman of the Medical Council. If I quote from the report of that committee, the practical difficulties in connection with this matter will become more evident. This committee came to the conclusion that in the light of the position which then existed there was no reason for an additional school. My hon. friend said that the position may have changed but in the light of the circumstances which prevailed at that time, there was no reason for an additional medical school. The committee went on to say—[Translation]—

The committee was of the opinion therefore that it would not be desirable to establish an altogether separate institution for non-Europeans.

Owing to the limited numbers.

The one reason was the limited numbers. One cannot keep a medical school going with a small number of students. The other reason was the question of the availability of the services of specialists in connection with clinical training in the latter years. That committee stated quite correctly therefore that at that stage we could not think of ’establishing an alogether separate school for non-Europeans, and their opinion was that we had to work in the direction of developing a separate institution within the university of the Witwatersrand—I think my hon. friend will concede that I am putting the case correctly—not altogether separate but developing within the university of the Witwatersrand. They realised the difficulty in regard to the numbers and in regard to the provision of adequate clinical facilites. The University of the Wtwatersrand went into this matter in the light of this report and last year they discussed certain proposals with me along those lines. But in the meantime certain other developments have taken place. As my hon. friend correctly said a moment ago—I am not using this statement against him—but the position has changed and today the question is whether we should not at this stage consider the establishment of a fourth medical school. We have three medical schools at present. As long as we have non-European students in Johannesburg, whether or not they form a separate part of the school, we cannot take the same number of European students. The question arises, therefore, whether the time has not arrived to make an altogether different arrangement to the one suggested here. A further development which is taking place is the movement in Durban, to which the hon. member for Durban (North) (The Rev. Miles-Cadman) referred. A movement was started in Durban to establish a medical school for natives only, apparently not for Indians. It will be seen that if a medical school is to be established in Durban for natives only, it will not solve the difficulty because there are still the Indians to be catered for. Apparently the people who want to establish a native medical school do not want the Indians there.

And now we must take them.

The position is therefore, in view of the first matter to which my hon. friend referred, in other words, the extension of the number of European medical students and the increasing demand in the country for trained European medical men, that I have asked the heads of the three existing medical institutions, in Cape Town, the Witwatersrand and Pretoria to meet me. I shall then discuss the whole question with them, in the first place to see what should be done in view of the European needs and in the second place to see what policy should be adopted in connection with non-Europeans. Must we still adhere to the advice which my hon. friend on that side gave us, in other words, to have a separate institution developing within the university at the Witwatersrand, or must we make use of the clinical facilities in Durban to establish a separate medical school at that centre? But I cannot take the matter any further until such time as I have had a discussion with the heads of the medical institutions.

†What I have just been saying is in some respects an answer to what was said by the hon. member for Durban (North) (Rev. Miles-Cadman) though possibly he has not been following me. He referred to the very important question of the proposal to establish a Bantu Medical School at Durban. Some very excellent people have got together; they have got public support for the project of establishing a medical school for Bantu at Durban. Unfortunately they seemed to limit their ideas to the Bantu, and are not prepared to deal with non-Europeans generally. However, I have indicated to these people that while I very much appreciate their initiative, it is necessary for me to view this problem as a whole, that at present there are facilities for non-Europeans at the University of the Witwatersrand, but that in view of the increase in needs and demands as far as European medical education is concerned, the whole position may have to be reviewed, and that to that end, I am proposing to have an early consultation with the heads of the three medical universities, and thereafter possibly I shall be able to talk to my Durban friends again. The hon. member for Durban (North) raised some other points as well. He raised the question of the availability of our examinations outside the Union. I think he was referring not so much to the examination of the University of South Africa but also to the examinations of the joint Matriculation Board. Unfortunately Southern Rhodesia a few years ago, turned its back on our matriculation examination, and decided to take the English examinations in preference thereto. As far as the proposed medical faculty at Pietermaritzburg is concerned, that is a matter that falls under my colleague, the Minister of Agriculture. He foots the bill for agricultural faculties, not I as Minister of Education. Then with regard to research, I would like to draw the attention of the hon. member to the fact that we are proposing an entirely new set-up for research, and that I shall shortly be moving the second reading of the new National Research Council Bill, and as a result of that I hope we shall be able to deal with the research problem in a more comprehensive and at the same time a more generous manner. The grants to which my hon. friend referred continue to appear on this vote until that body is set up. The grants to societies are, of course, purely grants for the printing of their proceedings and do not represent a measure even of what the Government is doing today for the encouragement of research. As far as education through the radio is concerned, there I would say two things. The first is that in respect of schools, my department co-operates with the Provincial Administration in the matter of radio education to the schools. As far as adults are concerned, that is a matter that has received the attention of the Adult Education Committee which I appointed some little time ago, and which, I think, is on the verge of reporting. The whole question will be gone into in the light of its report.

I just want to bring a few minor matters to the notice of the Minister. I do not want to add anything to what has been said by the hon. member for Gordonia (Mr. J. H. Conradie) in connection with the policy of separation at the universities. I just want to say that it is very striking that this Government is apparently powerless in connection with every matter affecting this vital question of separateness. The Government experiences difficulty in connection with every matter of this kind arising out of that policy. The smokescreen of practical difficulties is again being put up. The fact is that this state of affairs cannot be allowed to continue. We dare not allow it to continue; we must put a stop to it. These conditions which prevail at the Witwatersrand University and at the Cape Town University do not promote public life in South Africa and it poisons the whole relationship of our races in this country. That state of affairs must be stopped, whatever happens, even if it costs the country a few million pounds. I am not in favour of depriving the non-Europeans of facilities but when we look at the future, this state of affairs will cost our country a very great deal, and it will be worth while to spend a large sum of money today in order to rectify that state of affairs. I just want to sound this serious note of warning and I address it more particularly to one section of the students at those universities. I want to say right at the outset that I am not anti-Semetic. I do not believe much in that sort of thing, but we dare not close our eyes to the events which are taking place. I want to warn the Jewish students at those universities especially to discontinue that propaganda of racial equality which they are preaching at these two universities whenever they have an opportunity to do so. By means of that action they are not rendering the cause of harmonious racial relationship in this country any service. It is a well known fact today that our Jewish students at the universities are making that propaganda of racial equality from morning till night. They must remember that they are fairly sheltered as far as their religion is concerned, as well as in other respects. The people who will have to pay the price are the Afrikaans- and English-speaking people. They are the people who will have to pay the price. I say that that feeling is taking root more and more not only amongst Afrikaans-speaking persons but also amongst English-speaking persons. I want to sound a very serious note of warning that this matter must be very seriously considered, and that a stop must be put to that type of thing. The time has arrived when we should seriously consider the appointment of a permanent commission of experts which will properly investigate the whole racial question in all its aspects and make suitable recommendations in that connection. To a great extent we are still groping in the dark today. Up to the present there has been no proper investigation into the whole question, with the exception of a fact here and there, and I feel that there should be a proper investigation into this matter in all its aspects. Then there is another matter which I want to emphasise, although the Minister has already replied to it. I refer to the question of making more money available for research. When we look at the present state of affairs in our country, it is no recommendation for the views of the people of South Africa, and it is definitely a reflection on our nation that so little money is made available. Look at the serious problems in our country and, on the other hand, look at the efforts which are being made to investigate those problems broadly affecting the national life. I say it is a reflection on us to make available such a small sum of money for research purposes. Not only should the amount be considerably bigger, but greater facilities ought to be provided for those who undertake research. The road of the research scientist is not one which is strewn with roses. He experiences great hardship and he is only prompted by his enthusiasm for research. He makes great sacrifices and he gets practically no encouragement from the State. In view of this state of affairs in our country and more particularly in view of the prospects of research in our country, better provision should be made for the man who undertakes research. The only prospect which he has at the moment is that his tombstone will one day testify to the fact that he rendered valuable service to the country. Apart from that, there are no prospects for him, and I say that that is a reflection on our country. Take the question of the publication of scientific works. There are numerous scientific works, very thorough works, which cannot be published because of the old story that there are no funds. That is riot fair towards South Africa. In this connection I want to make a plea more particularly for scientific works in Afrikaans. The people who concentrate on this work find it almost impossible to publish those works because as yet there is not a sufficiently extensive market for scientific works in Afrikaans. It is the duty of the State to come to the assistance of those research scientists. There are numerous outstanding works which cannot be published because they are in Afrikaans, and because there are no funds available. No, the time has arrived, especially now that the war intoxication is beginning to pass, for the Government to make a very serious attempt to make available funds for proper research, and in the second place, for the publication of scientific research works which cannot be published at the moment. It will benefit the whole of our national life in this country.

I was not in the House when the hon. Minister replied to the member for Gordonia (Mr. J. H. Conradie) and I would like to ask his leader and the member for Gordonia, whether he is prepared, whether his party will be prepared, to move a motion in the House suggesting to the Government that they immediately set aside certain funds for the erection of another Bantu university, or one exclusively for non-Europeans. I think that would go a long way to meet the situation. As there is a volume of opinion in this House and in the country against nonEuropeans attending what are predominantly European universities, I would like to see the Nationalist Party lead the way in advocating that more universities for non-Europeans be brought into being. That, to my mind, is the solution for the racial troubles at the universities, and I hope that the Nationalist Party will lead the way. I am sure that the Government would be only too happy to acquiesce in the demand for further university facilities for non-Europeans. I am sorry I was not here when the Minister replied, but I would like to know from the Minister, if possible, what his opinion is in that connection. I hope it was to the effect that the Government would be prepared to grant facilities for such non-European universities. Now, I would like to make a special appeal, in addition to the most eloquent appeal which has come from the member for Durban (North) (The Rev. Miles-Cadman) in connection with the medical school in Durban. In Durban there is a committee with which I have been associated. I have attended almost every meeting, and there you have practically the whole of the medical profession in Durban giving their time and money and prepared to do everything they possibly can to bring this medical school into being. We were amazed to hear from the Minister that certain difficulties have arisen because the medical profession preferred the school in Durban to be solely a Bantu one. From the last meeting I attended I did not gather that that is strictly correct.

That is what the deputation told me.

It is the feeling in Durban that it should be a Bantu school, because the Indian community and the coloured community have access to the Rand University and there is no provision made for natives in Durban. Well, if that is so, we say that the majority of people in Durban would prefer it to be an entirely Bantu one. There are public-spirited men in Durban today prepared to collect money, a large amount of money, from their friends in Durban and prepared, as it were, to bring the whole machinery into being. I am almost certain that even the ground today can be bought, or is waiting there for the Government to launch the scheme. I think the Minister is ill-advised, if I may respectfully say so, to delay this scheme. A large amount of money is forthcoming and could be added to later. I do not think there is any other part of South Africa more fitting for a Bantu medical school than Durban. I do not know of any other part of the country where the people are so keen to establish it as in Durban, and I appeal to the Minister to help them as quickly as possible and to let us have that school in Durban as soon as possible. If it is a question of finance, I say that there is this money coming from the citizens. The Government should also be able to borrow money. Money is very cheap today and the Government can obtain it at 2 per cent. If the financial cost is a consideration of the Minister’s I say borrow the money. When these matters drag along and there are postponements and delays, people are apt to get tired and enthusiasm may wane, but we must get that medical school for Durban. I should like just to touch on another matter in connection with the Bantu section, in regard to education, and that is this: In Durban and throughout South Africa today there is a demand for domestic servants. There are complaints from every wife in every household today that there are no trained domestic servants. I would like to see some provision made for educating non-Europeans in domestic science. It is a rarity today to find a good domestic servant, and what provision is made for teaching the non-Europeans domestic science? They come into the house as domestic servants and do not know the first thing about cooking or house-work. It will not be costly to train these natives and non-Europeans. I think there is an enormous demand today for highly skilled and trained domestic servants, and as far as I know we are doing absolutely nothing to train a section of the community for a remunerative position where they would be able to earn substantial wages and would be a credit to themselves and to the people they represent. I do not know why the Native Affairs Department does not take up this matter. I have been voicing these views for years now, but what is the position in any hotel in Durban or in Cape Town? They cannot get a highly trained staff, waiters and cooks. I think the Government should initiate some campaign and set aside money for training domestic servants to do the job. Particularly when I see the time rapidly approaching when our domestic servants will be chiefly of the female sex. In Durban we have the Zulu houseboys and most of the servants are men, but they are becoming industrialised today and will be needed in industry. That being the case we will have to rely on the women for domestic service, and I want the Minister to take the matter into consideration, because a good domestic servant in South Africa can get £6 to £8 a month in wages and all found, which includes clothing and housing, something which thousands of Europeans will be glad to get. I hope the Minister will take that into consideration and do what he can to expedite the medical school for Bantus in Durban, which we are so anxious to proceed with.

I am very pleased that the Minister was so complaisant in his attitude towards the plea which I made this morning. But I want to go a little further. There are a few anomalies in the position which I should like to eliminate. The first point in regard to which there is apparently some misunderstading is in regard to the question as to whether the natural increase in salary has been taken into account, and I should like to draw the attention of the new committee to this point. I could only get the figures in respect of one university, and that forced me to the conclusion that the Du Toit Commission did not take into account the natural increase when it drew up its report and formula. I am afraid that that was not taken into account, and I shall be glad if the Minister will bring it to the notice of the new committee.

I shall bring it to their notice. One of the members of the Du Toit Commission is also a member of the new committee.

I just want it specially brought to their notice. With regard to the question of salary increases, the report of the Du Toit Commission also contains very strong statements in that regard. I do not want the Minister to tell us immediately whether or not he supports it, but I want to ask him to refer it specially to the new committee. This did not fall within the terms of reference of the Du Toit Commission, but nevertheless the Commission deemed it advisable to pass certain comments in that connection, and I just want to quote a passage from the report in this connection—

I want to point out the great practical difficulty with which the universities were faced also in a country like England especially as far as professors in economics and commerce were concerned. Attractive offers are made to those people from outside, and the universities find it very difficult to retain their professors. Our professors in South Africa are on a scale which was laid down many years ago. It is true that they are now getting a cost of living allowance, out it is a temporary allowance. We must realise that the value of the pound has fallen considerably and it is necessary to revise our opinion in regard to their salaries. The Du Toit Commission made strong recommendations, and I shall be pleased if those recommendations can be brought to the notice of the present committee.

The Du Toit Commission fully took into account the question of salary increases.

Yes, in the recommendations which it made, but not in calculating the formula which it proposed.

No, I think in that respect as well, but I am not sure on that point.

If the Minister looks at it, he will see that the proposed increase amounts to approximately £70,000. An increase of 20 per cent. on the salaries of professors and lecturers will amount to approximately £140,000 per annum. Even if the total relief is used for this one purpose only, an increase of 10 per cent. only can be granted to the professors and lecturers. For that reason I say that the recommended increases in salary were not taken into account in the formula. But in any event it is a matter which can be investigated. Looking at it superficially it does not seem to have been done. But I should like these matters to be specially referred to the committee so that they can make the necessary provision if it has not been done. Then I want to break a lance for our universities generally. The amount which is being made available for 1945-’46 under the Minister’s new scale is £630,000. I think if the Minister takes into account the fact that the universities themselves contribute approximately £800,000, he will realise that the support of the State is too little. It should be in the neighbourhood of 50 per cent. There is still room further to complement this essential service. We know that a formula is being adopted, but the formula is usually framed in such a way that it agrees more or less with the amount the Minister has in mind. That is what happens in the final resort and the Minister ought to be a little more generous as far as the amount is concerned. This increase is paid every year on the position of the previous year. The allowance for 1945 is paid on the income of 1944. I should like to know this. The natural increase in the income during the year concerned has not been taken into account. In this case mv contention is that in the calculation under the formula the natural increase of income during that year was not taken into account, and I should like to know from the Minister whether it will be possible to make a deferred payment at the end of the year, calculated on the additional income which accrued to the universities during the financial year?

We must do it now; we are making a deferred payment now.

Then it can be calculated on the same year. My point is this, that if we take the increase in the income of the previous year at 10 per cent., it means that the universities are only getting ten-elevenths of the increase they should have got. I think that should be taken into consideration. In the second place the Minister proposes that they will not be given the whole of that increase immediately. They get 15 per cent. in respect of the first year. These proposals do not mean that they are going to get the increase of £70,000 immediately. They cannot get more than 15 per cent. in the first year, and during the following years too there may be limitations on the increase. This sum of £70,000 represents the total relief, and not the relief which immediately comes into force. It is proposed to make available only 15 per cent. during this year. Another reason why I ask the Minister to be more liberal in the policy which he is adopting, is in pursuance of the taxation system under which the rebate disappears when the children attain the age of 18 years. We have often pleaded that that is the very time when the child costs the parents most, and at that stage the parent no longer gets the benefit of the rebate of £5 in respect of each child. We have asked that that rebate should be applicable to children attending any university institution. There are approximately 12,000 students in our universities this year. Let us take it for granted that half of them are over 18 years; that means that the Minister is scoring approximately £30,000 per annum in respect of the rebate. [Time limit.]

The hon. member for Gordonia (Mr. J. H. Conradie) raised a very important matter this afternoon, and I want to congratulate him personally on the high level on which he conducted the debate. There is no doubt that every member in this House will associate himself with the expression of opinion that at all costs the principle of separateness in our education, primary, higher and university education, must be maintained. It is, of course, of the utmost importance that we should maintain it in that sphere of education, because when the student reaches the university, it is in those years particularly that he is susceptible to wrong influences, and it is at that time that there is the danger of intermixing. It is at that stage of his life that we must be so careful. I personally cannot help associating myself most strongly with that expression of opinion. I hope the hon. member for Gordonia realises that it is a question which is comparatively new. It is only during the past few years that the number of non-European students at our universities has increased, especially as far as the Witwatersrand is concerned. I am speaking as a student of that university. In the years 1928-’29 we did not have non-European students there. Thereafter I again returned for a part-time course and I did not find any non-European students there. But shortly before the war, as well as during the war, the numbers increased fairly rapidly, and there is a reason for that. The native population in South Africa, as well as in the northern states, is more and more beginning to realise the value of European medicine and medical treatment, and there can be no doubt that the nonEuropean students at our universities can accomplish excellent work in those parts amongst the non-Europeans. As far as my enquiries enable me to judge, there is probably not one of those native students at the Witwatersrand University who proposes to practise in the Union. They all propose to return to the northern states in order to practise there amongst their own people. When we bear in mind the possibility of the spreading of diseases and the undesirability of sending European doctors to those parts, having regard to the climatic conditions prevailing there, I think it is desirable that the Government should encourage non-European students to qualify as doctors in order to practise amongst their own people. The Minister has already replied fairly effectively in regard to the practical difficulties which exist, especially as far as the numbers are concerned, and he also referred to the commission which enquired into this matter and came to the conclusion that the time was not ripe to call into being a separate university. But I feel that I should say in that regard that in spite of the fact that the Witwatersrand University was forced by circumstances, which the Minister explained, to accept those students, arrangements are being made to maintain the principle of separateness in the university itself. Perhaps it would be as well for members to know that a building has already been erected to enable the non-European medical students to have separate laboratories as well as separate hostels. In that connection it is perhaps very important to learn from the Minister this afternoon that plans may be developed to establish a separate university for non-European students. I want to say that I would support such a step most strongly. It is not only desirable but, in my opinion, it is imperative to establish a separate university for non-European students, and to apply the principle of separateness in the university itself in the meantime. One realises, of course, that there is a certain amount of friction between coloureds and natives, but I am convinced that it is possible to establish spacious institutions which can meet ‘he needs of both sections, so that all non-European students can be catered for. If it is intended to establish a separate university in the future for non-European students, it would be advisable to come to such a decision in the very near future, because that will prevent steps being taken at certain universities which will later mean a waste of money. May I conclude by pointing out that the question of the establishment of separate universities, must be coupled with the decision in regard to separate residential areas for Europeans, especially in urban areas. Take Johannesburg, for example. It is true that there are smaller non-European areas in other places, but the non-European area seems to be the south-western part. A non-European area seems to be coming into existence there, and I think the hon. Minister will agree that if that is going to be the native area of Johannesburg, it will not be desirable to have the native university in Parktown, for example. In the second place I feel that in the post-war years, one of the most important problems will be the question of separateness between Europeans and nonEuropeans. [Time limit.]

I wish to thank the Minister very much for the long reply he gave to the points I raised and to say on the whole the statements he made are satisfactory. But it rather astonished me to be told that the establishment of a new faculty at Cedara is a matter for the Minister of Agriculture.

That is correct.

If that is correct, as I am told by the Minister, I can only deplore it. It is surely a matter purely of education, and why it should not fall under this department is very difficult to understand.

Provision for agricultural faculties is made on Vote 44.

I am sure the Minister will have considerable influence with the Minister of Agriculture, and I hope very sincerely it will be used to the full. His sympathies must be, I think, with this. With regard to radio education one merely wished to advance that here we have a very powerful potential weapon against ignorance, and its use needs to be planned and systematised. There are great questions, questions of public health, prevention of disease, racial relations and so on which need to be dealt with very widely, more particularly for adults, and I doubt whether the drive, the necessary consolidation as it were, and the organisation, could be given to radio education by anybody else than the Minister. There is a kindred thing, it seems to me, which has to do with film education. Under R (3) £1,000 is set aside for cinema films and slides. The cinema is also potentially a very educative agent which in the past has been rather misused, and under-used. This £1,000 was also provided last year, and presumably the year before, and the fact that this amount remains at the same level shows a lack of initiative ….

That is only in connection with anti-waste.

May I ask the Minister whether his attention has been called to an article in the press in this connection? It seems to me that advantage has not been taken of the asset offered by the films in education. We have been static in the matter and not progressive, and therefore private hands are taking hold of it, perhaps not altogether to the nation’s good. I do not know whether the Minister has seen this article which appeared in the Johannesburg “Star” on February 10th, in which it is stated that Dr. Eybers has given up his post as Professor of Education at the University of the Orange Free State for, in his own words “something that is worth a thousand times more”—the scientific education of the teachers of Africa in the use of educational films both for children and adults. The article goes on to say—In an interview with a representative of the “Star” Dr. Eybers spoke enthusiastically of the future of the educational film not only in the Union but throughout the African Continent. He visualised the day when these films would be a recognised part of the education of millions of people in Africa.

This is a very big project indeed. A little later in the interview the learned doctor said—

So he is; but one hopes that the profit side of it will not be allowed to overweigh the more necessary educational aspect. Some of us have before expressed our disappointment at the educational tone of many of the films commercially placed before our people as not being of a high level. If the educational aspect is so important that a great commercial company is making facilities on a vast scale, surely the Minister will understand my anxiety and wish to bring this matter before him in case his department can do something or other towards systematising the position.

We are doing it today; we have got our film section.

I will ask the Minister whether he proposes to make use of the existing defence force film unit. They could do a tremendous amount of excellent work in this direction, so it seems to me, and one hopes that the Minister has some plan in view in that direction There is one other small point, in regard to the advance in this vote from £1,000 to £5,000 re grants to ex-volunteers for university courses of training. There will be a great rush of these men before long, we hope and believe, and I would like the Minister to tell us ’whether arrangements have been made, whether facilities do exist at the present moment for meeting the great demands which will be made by returned soldiers within the next twelve months. Another point, I undersand, perhaps not entirely clearly, but I understand that the Government intends to treat ex-volunteers very graciously and even generously with regard to university training. I have gathered that as much as £250 will be paid as a grant to a lad who wishes to graduate.

That has been done for the last two years.

If that will continue to be done I would put another class of claim before the Minister, and that is of those men who are coming back thoroughly jaded and upset—very many of them will be—those who find it difficult to come to a decision and may not have decided immediately to go up to the university. There may be delay. Many men will start work of one kind or another, and after a period of some months, or two or three or more years, they may very well discover they need a deeper knowledge than is readily obtainable without further academic instruction. Some men make up their minds inmmediately and are to be treated generously. Some of them may make up their minds later that they need higher education, and I want to ask the Minister whether he will use his influence on their behalf in order that their correspondence course fees might be paid for them, if they later decide to study for an external degree of the University of South Africa. [Time limit.]

I listened attentively to the objections and difficulties which the Minister of Education raised in connection with the intermixing of Europeans and non-Europeans at the universities. There is a great deal to be said in favour of it and there is a great deal to be said against it too. I just want to remind the House of the adage that where there is a will there is a way. I want to make an appeal to the Minister, in spite of the practical difficulties, to tackle this matter and to put a stop to this intermixing. It is going to cost a great deal to establish a separate university. But it must be done in the interests of both races, Europeans as well as non-Europeans.

The hon. member cannot discuss that because the Minister has already explained that under the existing legislation he cannot take such a step.

I bow to your ruling, but this intermixing of Europeans and non-Europeans constitutes a great danger. We cannot allow it to continue. The inevitable result is a certain amount of fraternisation which will eventually become a great danger to the continued existence of of the European race. This intermixing at universities results in a tendency on the part of certain students to mix with the non-Europeans in all spheres. We are faced today with this great problem of the two races in our country, a problem which we must solve. We find this dangerous state of affairs at the universities, and it must be eliminated. We do not want to stand in the way of the aspirations of the non-European to obtain education. If he thinks he is entitled to education, and if perhaps he is entitled to it, we do not want to deprive him of it, but if he wants to place himself on an equal footing with Europeans at the universities ….

The Minister has already explained that under the existing law no separate university can be established. The hon. member cannot therefore advocate that policy.

I bow to your ruling, but it is a difficulty which must be solved. This is a matter which worries us, and I am making an appeal to the Mnister to help us find a solution. The Minister, too, appreciates the danger in spite of the difficulties he has pointed out. I want to emphasise that we do not want to handicap the non-Europeans and that we do not want to deprive them of rights, but this studying together of Europeans and non-Europeaps in our universities constitutes a great danger. I appreciate the difficulties which the Minister mentioned, namely that Indians, for example, do not want to associate with natives at the university at Fort Hare. But if there is any friction between non-Europeans and non-Europeans, it does not mean that they must be taken up by the European universities. If the problem cannot be solved in any other way, there will have to be a university for Indians as well, where their needs can be met. This matter is becoming more serious every day, and we visualise great difficulties in the future unless we act immediately. If we do not act now, we may at a later date have to use force, something which we on this side of the House want to avoid. We are not opposed to the development of non-Europeans. There is the Dutch Reformed Church, for example, which has definitely contributed a great deal to the development of the non-European population, but on the right lines. We even contribute to the cost of erecting schools for them, and many farmers, free of charge, build schools on their farms for non-Europeans in order to help them, but that good spirit must not be disturbed. If we can rectify the position tomorrow, therefore, we must not wait until the day after tomorrow, and we should apply the principle of separateness in connection with university training. Since the Minister has stated that a commssion or board is taking these things into review at the moment, I want to express the hope that he will expedite the introduction of separateness as much as possible. Then I want to say a few words more specifically in regard to our higher technical schools. These schools are not meeting the existing needs. There are numerous pupils who are anxious to attend higher technical schools, but there is no accommodation. I am given to understand that during the past few years money has been made available for the building of classrooms but that the building material has not been available. I want to make an appeal to the Minister to make provision for adequate accommodation in the year which lies ahead of us. Take the technical school at Ficksburg in my constituency, for example. In that school alone fifty children were turned away because there was no accommodation for them. We must make provision for adequate teaching staff and see to it that there is accommodation for the children who want instruction. There are many children who have no aptitude for academic training, but who are sufficiently talented to receive vocational training. Let us help these children by the establishment and the extension of technical schools where they can qualify themselves. There is a great demand for artisans and mechanics, and thoroughly trained men can always obtain employment. The contractors are looking for artisans today, especially in the building industry and having regard to the great national building programme involving the building of thousands of houses, we can appreciate that there is a demand for trained artisans. The Minister should see to it that this training is made available. Then I also want to emphasise that when the children receive training at the technical schools, they should receive some recognition for that training from the trade unions. It is generally felt by the heads of these schools that notwithstanding the fact that they do their best to give children vocational training, the trade unions are intent on pushing them into the background in every respect and to withhold recognition in respect of this training. It takes a long time to become a member of the unions and to receive recognition. This is an important point, and I hope the Minister will not overlook it. I want to conclude by dealing with a specific local matter, namely the Ficksburg Technical High School as such. In the first place I want to extend my hearty thanks to the Minister for the concession with regard to the building section he gave us as a result of representations I made to him. But there is a further stumbling block in the way, and I want to ask whether it cannot be removed. I refer to the fact that the upholstery section of the technical school of Ficksburg will be transferred to Kroonstad. That cannot be done until such time as accommodation has been erected at Kroonstad. The advisory board of the technical school at Ficksburg, as well as the principal, feel that it will take a very long time before the buildings are completed and before the transfer can take place. I have now received a letter in which it is proposed to leave the upholstery section at Ficksburg temporarily, and it is stated that they will be very pleased if they can get the same person for the cabinet making because he is an excellent cabinet maker. They do not want to lose his services and they expressed the opinion that such an arrangement could be made in the meantime. They are willing to make room in the meantime for the building section and to use a portion of the gimnasium to call that section into being. All they want is the bricklayer instructor. [Time limit.]

It is perhaps rather unfortuate although we have been discussing the vote of the Minister of Education that education is a provincial affair, and the major part of education does not fall under the Minister at all. I am not here suggesting that any inroad should be made on the powers of the provincial councils. In the aspect I want to bring before the Minister in a minute or two, I might suggest the time has arrived, if this has not already been done, when we should have a consultative committee of the four directors of education under the chairmanship of the Minister, which would hold regular meetings to try and get some means of uniformity and progress in reference to education generally. I agree it is unfortunate that education is still in the hands of the four provincial administrations, and I want particularly to bring to the Minister’s notice an aspect of the demobilisation proposals to which I believe, despite the fact he has no power over the provincial administrations, his good offices might be directed with considerable effect. Throughout the proceedings of the ad hoc committee the point arose in discussing ways and means to absorb volunteers into civilian life, and particularly that kind of volunteer who had no pre-war employment whatsoever, the kind of youngster who went from school, perhaps after passing his matric, into the army, and will come back possibly 21 or 22 years of age with no experience of any kind, that there was a very great opening indeed for this type of man in the school teaching profession. First of all let me say this. I do not think for a moment that the school teaching profession would hold out any particular attraction to that type of man because the school-teaching profession in the Union of South Africa is one of the most ill-treated of all. I can remember as a youth in Scotland when the schoolmaster in the towns and villages, and particularly in the smaller towns, was the one individual to whom the whole community looked up. I believe that in Afrikaans the predikant is the dominie, but in Scotland the schoolmaster is described as the dominie. It is the same word, and the dominie was pre-eminently the chief citizen. He ranked higher, in our opinion even than the chief magistrate. Perhaps that accounts for Scotland still having one of the best educational systems in the world. But in South Africa we have gone almost as far as to degrade the schoolmaster, paying him a miserable pittance, and as a member of the community he certainly ranks lower than an artisan or an ordinary trader. So I feel something ought to be done in the way of raising the status of the schoolmaster, particularly in reference to the men we might absorb into the profession when the soldiers come back from the war. I understand there has been a complaint in the four provinces about the scarcity of male schoolteachers. Young men are not offering themselves for this profession, because with an extra year and a half they can train themselves to become doctors with a prospect of earning after three or four years, from £1,500 up to £2,000 a year, whereas as a schoolteacher they have to rise to be headmaster of a first-class school to get even £700. Yet they are given the greatest responsibility of all professional men in the country, teaching the youth of the nation, and this is how we treat these people. It seems to me the class of youngster who has gone direct from school into, say, the Air Force, and becomes a captain or major and returns with no experience or training for civil life, would possibly be the ideal type of man whom we could train as a school-teacher. But we certainly will not attract these young men coming back from the war if we keep the salaries of teachers as they are—I am not blaming the Minister for that—and if we still keep the status of the schoolmaster as it is. So I think I am in order in appealing to the Minister of Education, after all he is an educationist himself ….

He is only Minister of part of Education.

But I think even in respect of that part of it, if the hon. Minister used his undoubted influence and energy and if he interested himself particularly in this one special aspect of the demobilisation proposals, a great deal could be done. If I remember correctly during the discussions of the ad hoc committee on demobilisation it was suggested, as a matter of fact it was agreed, to ask the four Administrators to have a meeting with their four Directors of Education to discuss some kind of scheme whereby we could absorb these men into the school-teaching profession. As far as I know no such meeting has éver been held, and I should like to enlist the good offices of the Minister of Education in this direction. It seems to me here is an undoubted field where, while no doubt we would be solving part of our educational problem, on the other hand we would be doing the youth of this country a very great service indeed, because the type of man I am referring to is the type of man I believe would make a thoroughly good schoolmaster. In many instances he would certainly be the type of man to whom the pupils could look up to, for whom the pupils would have a considerable amount of respect, but if we are going to leave it, shall I say, to the idiosyncracies of four Administrators and the various views of four Directors of Education, it does not look to me very much is going to be done. Though I have no direct information I can gather from the knowledge at my disposal that the Demobilisation Department has not had a great deal of co-operation in this direction. It is no use one province trying to alter it. Despite the fact that education is divided into four watertight compartments and the little bit of education the provinces do not want is left over to the Minister of Education, the fact remains the Government must be paramount, and I believe demobilisation must take precedence even over the alleged sacred rights of the provinces; and if the Government feel, as a government, here is an avenue by which men can be absorbed into civil life and here is a means whereby education could be bettered, I feel it is incumbent on the Government to take some kind of steps. I would suggest to the Minister when he finishes having a consultation with the Chairman—I unfortunately cannot order the Chairman out ….

Do you want to?

I would suggest to the Minister that he should take steps to call some kind of conference of the four Directors of Education, in his capacity as Minister of Education. I can see one thing, and that is that although he is only in control of a portion of education, surely it is within his province, if not within his power, to have some conference with the four Directors of Education, for the purpose of rushing along some kind of scheme along the lines I suggested. If he did that he could help along the demobilisation of the army and contribute to something which is very near to his heart, the cause of education in South Africa. There is another point I wish to raise. I may be wrong, but I heard that the report on adult education has not yet been printed.

It has not yet been submitted to me finally.

I understood that and I do not want to prejudge anything, except to say something on behalf of a very old and well-known organisation, although possibly not so well-known in this country, the Workers’ Education Association.

I have always had very much sympathy with them.

Yes, but you have not done very much for them in the way of granting them much money.

They did not do very much in that direction.

The Carnegie Association made grants in this connection. If the Minister says he is in sympathy with them, I am sure he is, and they have performed some useful services in this country, but they can only continue with that service if they get the money with which to do it. Education, like most other things, provided one has the right spirit, is a matter of £.s.d. I believe that the Minister has the right spirit as regards education. Here we have an organisation which has experience. I can remember the time in Durban when we had a full-time tutor who was a graduate of Cambridge and who was in charge there for five years. His efforts in the direction of adult education were very much to be recommended, and the organisation worked very well. But with the withdrawal of the subsidy from the Carnegie Institute the association fell to the ground. Whether or not the report takes into consideration this particular organisation, I would like to remommend to the hon. Minister as a preliminary step, even before the report, which may be long delayed, that some consideration be given to the organisation which has worked without a great deal of propaganda very conscientiously for many years in the interests of adult education in the Union.

I have listened for some four hours to this debate on the question of separatism in the universities. The Minister of Education has already pointed out some grave difficulties. I must say that I did not notice that there was a great degree of solicitude for the welfare of non-Europeans. I have been associated with the education of non-Europeans at universities for many years, and I want to be quite frank when I tell you that neither the European nor the non-European is very happy at the same university. The nonEuropean does not feel at home because he thinks he is treated with disrespect by the European, and the better natured European feels awkward at the fact that he cannot fraternise with the non-European, especially in the social activities of the university, such as the sporting fields, the cricket fields, and as the member for Gordonia (Mr. J. H. Conradie) pointed out, in the swimming bath. We have to face these facts, but the Minister of Education has pointed out several grave difficulties. It is all very well for us to come here and advocate a separate university for the non-Europeans, but I would point out that at the present time we have about 600 to 700 non-Europeans in the universities and in some of the university colleges.

Did you say 600?

In the two universities there are about 500, and there are about 250 in the university colleges.

Not as many as that.

We cannot consider the matter purely from the point of view of a medical faculty. First of all, they are not all medical students. Some take science and quite a number take arts. So if you solve the difficulty for the medical course, it is not a solution of the whole problem. Hon. members expect the Government to spend £1,000,000 or £2,000,000 in connection with the university for non-European students. That seems to be the solution, but the Minister pointed out that there is a certain amount of disagreement between the various elements amongst the non-Europeans. We must also remember that we have a number of non-European students taking medical courses in our universities today because they cannot go overseas. I have quite a good deal to with them. I see sometimes five or six in a week, coming to me and telling me frankly what their position at the university is. They are not happy. They do their best to go overseas. When I put their cases to the Ministry of Transport I invariably receive a favourable reply and they leave Cape Town at the rate of three or four or five and sometimes six a month. So I come back to my opening remark, namely that they are not happy with us and we are not happy with them. It is not for me to say who is right and who is wrong, but in my opinion that state of affairs will obtain for decades to come.

Is it not better that they should have a university here than that they should go overseas?

That is so, but you must remember that the establishment of a university, as the Minister well knows, is no simple matter. Establish a university in South Africa, and concentrate on the medical school at Durban, and have the classics, arts and sciences at Fort Hare. You must remember that the non-European student can come here. The Minister of Education has no right to refuse the non-European student all the rights and privileges meted out to the European student. That has been pointed out. I stand to be corrected, but that is what my legal friends tell me. We must first have a guarantee that the non-European student will go to the non-European university. It is comparatively simple for the Government to pass a Bill forcing him. But if this university costs over the seven figure mark and it is not patronised, and the students go overseas, what will happen? Professors cost a lot of money. What will you do with the staff?

It is still there.

Yes, but we want to be sure that they will be used. I rose to take part in this debate chiefly to tell hon. members here my experiences in the teaching world in the University of Cape Town, and I must say that a lot of what the hon. member for Gordonia told this House is the unadulterated truth. The two sections are not happy together, and there is unfortunately one section which is inciting the non-European not only to make use of his rights but to force himself on the other section. We are having a great deal of trouble, and as far as I can see it is not likely to abate in the future. The solution is, I think, what the Minister indicated; try to see whether we can shape the idea of separatism inside the university for the time being and then after a few years we can see how that works. If it works well, then it is time to approach the Government for the establishment of a separate university. But at present it is a very costly undertaking, and unless they are forced to go there it is a hazardous undertaking in regard to the staff, the apparatus and even the buildings, although the latter may still be used for other purpuses. But the hon. member knows what it is when you get a university professor on your hands for two or three years; he might remain there for life. So I want to support the Minister when he gave it as one solution that it is possible to try the idea of separatism for the benefit of the nonEuropean, as well as for the benefit of the European, and I certainly would be very averse to any plan being adopted whereby the student will get facilities at a separate non-European university, until it is fully established that there should be such a university. There are still students who have the idea that they should go to a European university. The proposed scheme of separatism inside the university should be in full swing before a new university is built.

I should like to thank the Minister for increasing item J, “Award of Bursaries to Students”, by £8,300. I am convinced that there are many young Afrikaners, English-speaking and Afrikaans-speaking, who are not attending universities today but who, if they had been given bursaries to enable them to go to university, would have been very much better students than some of the boys and girls who are at university at present. I have gained a good deal of experience on school committees and school boards up to matriculation. Up to matriculation it is possible for the student to obtain local bursaries and assistance. The children live with their parents, who are able to contribute a little, and they manage to get on. But as soon as the children have passed matriculation, they are practically on the street. Many of these cases are deserving and these children would be clever students. They do everything in their power to obtain assistance. A few of them are assisted by means of bursaries, but the greatest proportion on the platteland have no alternative but to go into the civil service or to take up other employment. Their parents are too poor to send them to university and they cannot obtain assistance. We talk about social security. Here we have one way in which we can create a future for clever boys and girls whose parents are too poor to send them to university. I should like to see adequate bursaries granted and a much bigger amount made available for that purpose. I am grateful for this increase. But this is one way in which the State can come to the assistance of the pupil who is likely to make a good student, to enable him to have a university career and to become an asset to the country. Today those pupils have to approach private individuals for assistance. We know what their position is. I am pleased that the Minister has increased this amount by £8,300. But what does it mean? I listened attentively to the speech of the hon. member for Cape Town (Gardens) (Dr. L. P. Bosman). It is very clear to me, and it was unnecessary for him to say it, bearing in mind what the students have said on this subject and the newspaper accounts of what has already taken place, that the presence of coloureds and natives at our universities amongst Europeans is already causing difficulties and will cause much greater difficulties in the future. The hon. member himself stated that the position was becoming worse every year and that the difficulties were being aggravated. We are going to dawdle before taking steps in this direction, and we are heading for trouble. To speak of separateness in the universities themselves, well, we may succeed as far as the natives are concerned, but not as far as the coloured students are concerned. There will always be education. Unless we make provision for separateness, we are looking for trouble. I also want to warn the Minister that if coloured persons are allowed to go overseas to study, we are looking for trouble. When they receive their training overseas they mix with every conceivable class, and when they return to this country they are dissatisfied, and that is going to lead to difficulties. The Minister should rather make provision for separate institutions for coloureds and natives. The Minister must not dawdle any longer. Reference has been made in this House to £1,000,000. It does not matter whether it costs £1,000,000; it does not matter whether it costs much more. It would be very much better to solve the problem in that way than to have trouble in the future. We are all anxious to retain the European civilisation in this country, and it is that type of thing which is going to cause trouble. I would prefer to see us spend £10,000,000 now in order to solve this problem, rather than to have a hybrid population in this country.

I want to say a few words in regard to the relationship of the Medical Council towards the universities where medical training is given. With regard to the university colleges it has been the practice for some years that the Medical Council decides what percentage of marks the students must attain before they can be admitted as medical students to the university. The students have the right to study for the B.Sc. degree at those university colleges, and in the examinations for the B.Sc. degree they have to get more than a specified number of marks in order to be admitted to the Medical Faculty at the university. It used to be 50 per cent. It was then changed to 40 per cent.

40 per cent. of what?

Of the marks. For the B.Sc. degree the students take four subjects for the first year, and they have to get 50 per cent. in those subjects in order to pass. I want to quote what was said in this regard by an authorititative person and it will then become clear to the Minister—

We have the case of students who wrote the examination in December. The professors or the people who examined the students felt that they ought to have 40 per cent. in order to be admitted. They then gave the candidates 45 per cent. or 48 per cent., just a little more than the basis laid down, so that they would be eligible for admission to the course. That happened in December. Those students were not admitted to the university, as appears from the quotation I have just read. Investigations were made in various colleges, and it appeared that marks were awarded on such a basis that the students obtained a percentage slightly higher than the required percentage in order to render them eligible for the course. They were not admitted, however, with the result that those students suffered. Those students now have to wait a year, and they have to write another examination before they can be admitted. I should like the Minister to investigate this matter, since various people have approached me because their children were prejudiced in consequence of this arrangement. I should likfe to say a few words in regard to the question of separation between Europeans and non-Europeans at our universities. I was very pleased to hear from the Minister that he agreed that the principle of separateness should be applied between Europeans and non-Europeans, and I hope he will lay down the definite policy that as soon as circumstances permit, the principle of separateness will be carried out in our universities. Of course, We must take into consideration the numbers of non-European students and the difficulty which the Minister mentioned in connection with this matter. I must admit that I am convinced that whatever the difficulties may be, we should take steps to see that the nonEuropean students are educated here so that they will not be obliged to go to other countries. I hope therefore that the question of separateness in existing universities will receive the necessary attention. It is very desirable. Then there is another point I should like to bring to the notice of the Minister. I want to ask the Minister to provide better accommodation for the technical and domestic science schools. In my area there is a domestic science school which has been struggling for years to obtain an improvement. I know that the principle has been approved of and that the plans have been drawn up, but I want to make a plea that a start should be made now to bring about an improvement. Then there is another point, that is, whether the Minister is satisfied with the standard of education in the technical schools, whether he is satisfied that it is sufficiently high for practical purposes. Is it of such a nature that commerce and industry regard the standard attained by those pupils as sufficiently high to qualify them for appointment to the various positions? I doubt whether that is really the case. After completing those courses the pupils simply have to take their chance. I hope we shall get the best people to train these pupils so that commerce and industry will know that they are getting well trained persons whom they can employ at decent wages.

I should like to bring the difficulties of the platteland child to the attention of the Minister of Education. The platteland parents have to cope with great difficulties in connection with their children. They do not receive their full rights in connection with the various technical schools. May I just give an explanation. The platteland parent is faced with a great item when he has to send away one of his children. He cannot send his child to a university or a technical college for less than £120 per annum. In addition there is still the railway tickets, which is a fairly large item. If a parent has two children, it is a fairly heavy weight around his neck if he has to send them away. I therefore want to appeal to the Minister of Education to see to it that that kind of parent on the platteland receives assistance. Another point I should like to bring to his attention is that in Johannesburg we had the Technical Training School. There the poor man’s child could be instructed in practical subjects and could also take his matriculation examination. From 1947 that will not be recognised any more. Then they will no longer be able to sit for their matriculation examination, and as regards the poor people, that is a fairly sore point with them.

Which institution do you refer to?

The Technical Training School.

Under whom does that fall?

I speak subject to correction, but I think it falls under the Minister.

Do you refer to the C.O.T.T. system?

It was a practical matriculation examination. From 1947 it will be completely excluded. It provided for practical training together with the matriculation examination in many cases where the parents could not afford to let their children study another curriculum. Then there is another matter. Provision is made here for training in commerce and domestic science. If a student wishes to enter for the engineering course or for the medical profession, he also receives practical training. But if he enters for commercial education, there is no practical portion of his education. I think provision should be made for that, so that when the child receives a commercial education he will also receive practical training, just as in the cases I mentioned above, so that when one day he attains a position in commerce, he will not only have the theoretical knowledge, but also practical knowledge of what is expected of him. Another point I should like to bring to the Minister’s attention is the kindergartens. I knew he said this afternoon that it does not come under him any more, but I want to say that I see provision is made here only for one inspector for kindergarten education. I want to appeal to the Minister that he, with the knowledge he acquired as Chief of the Transvaal, will see to it that something more is done for the kindergartens than is being done today. I think that is the foundation of the education of our youth. Then I should like to support the hon. member for Fordsburg (Mr. Burnside). The salaries of our teachers today are so small that we only hold out in prospect to them a pension. We do not pay them enough, and then we hold out that beautiful pension before them. I really think that if the man receives a larger salary he will be satisfied to continue being a teacher instead of looking for a better position in the sphere of commerce. If he is not a good teacher, he can go into business, but we should make the position attractive enough for him to retain his position. He should not only have a pension in prospect. I think we should pay those people who must educate our nation for the future on a higher scale. We do much for our professions, and we must also do something for those who have the future of the nation in their hands.

I would like to deal with the new points which have arisen since I last spoke. The hon. member for Durban (Central) (Mr. Derbyshire) referred to the question of training non-Europeans as domestic servants. A certain amount is being done today in that regard. As far as my Department is concerned, we have facilities for such training at the reformatory at Eshowe and we also subsidise one or two small mission institutions in that connection. A good deal more, I believe, is being done today as part of the native education system in the provinces. In view of the proposals of the Native Education Finance Bill, a board will be set up under that Bill which will be able to enquire into the position in all the provinces in this regard, and after that I shall probably be in a better position to answer this question than I am today. The hon. member for Durban (North) has raised the question of the use of the film in education. I would like to point out to him that my Department has for a long time had a film unit. That is one of the respects in which we do co-operate very effectively with the provinces. This film unit serves as a film library and to some extent as a film producing unit, and I hope that when the war ends it will be possible to extend its activities very considerably, perhaps by linking up with the Defence Force Unit to which my hon. friend also referred. As far as ex-soldiers are concerned, there are two aspects of the problem. The first is the question of financial assistance. That has been done by us for some time. We have provided financial assistance both in the form of grants and loans, and that has now been co-ordinated with the financial assistance scheme of the Directorate of Demobilisation. Not only can a grant of up to £250 be made, but in addition a loan can be made. We have been working on that basis for some time, and my Department will continue to co-operate with the Directorate of Demobilisation in this connection. In regard to buildings, quite a different problem will arise because with the large number of ex-soldier students streaming back, and it will be necessary to provide facilities which the universities do not have available today. Discussions have been taking place in that connection, and I expect that through the Defence Department we shall be able to help university institutions to meet the inrush of ex-soldier students. My hon. friend also raised the question of ex-soldier students who want to come back to us later. That is a matter in the first instance for demobilisation, but I shall be perfectly happy to go into it if raised by them. Then the hon. member for Fordsburg (Mr. Burnside) has raised the question of the absorption of returning soldiers in the teaching profession. I fully agree with him that those who wish to do so should have their entry into the profession facilitated. To some extent that will have to happen under the financial assistance scheme to which I have just referred. That will help somewhat with the financial difficulties. Of course, there is the further question of the provinces being able to give them special facilities, but that is, of course, a matter for the provinces in the first instance.

It is a matter for you.

I think I must make that quite clear to my hon. friend, that under the Constitution I have no authority over the Directors of Education, and if I call a Director of Education to see me, he will have to refer it first to the Administrator. He is not subject to me.

Your authority is supreme.

The Government has no authority over the provinces in that sense.

But a nod is as good as a wink.

The Director serves under the Administrator. We have a committee of heads of departments, as part of the Consultative Committee machinery.

But you pay a subsidy for education.

I do not pay a subsidy for education. As Minister of Education I pay no subsidy. As Minister of Finance, the Treasury pays a subsidy which in the past has been calculated on a per capita basis, but in the future will not be and those subsidies are unconditional subsidies. The provinces are autonomous bodies. We have, however, got machinery for consultation. We have the Consultative Committee, and as part of that machinery we have a committeé of heads of provincial education departments, but not presided over by me, but by the Secretary for Education. It is perfectly possible for me to take up a matter of that kind through the Secretary for Education. I want to make it quite clear that I cannot give instructions to the provinces.

You can use your influence.

In regard to the Workers’ Educational Association, I can only repeat that since coming into contact with that body in the United Kingdom, I have had a good deal of sympathy with it, but I must now await the report of the committee to which I have referred to see what should be done in connection with its activities.

†*The hon. member for Ladybrand (Mr. J. N. le Roux) and also the hon. member for Potchef stroom (Mr. Van der Merwe) raised the question of additional accommodation for higher technical schools. I think hon. members and the House as a whole are acquainted with our difficulties. In the past we had a restricted building programme. My Department does its best to have the buildings erected, but we know what the building demand is. My hon. friend, just as I and others, is anxious to have more houses for returned soldiers, and the trouble is that one cannot do everything at the same time, and I can give my hon. friend the assurance that I shall do my best to have the buildings erected as soon as possible with an eye to the general programme of the Government. The hon. member for Ladybrand raised the further important question and the hon. member for Potchefstroom practically also referred to it, and that is the question of fitting in the work of the higher technical schools of my Department with the work of the practical life outside, the work of the trade unions. That is one of the points which very clearly falls within the powers of that commission into technical and trade training which I appointed, and I hope that as a result of that there will be a solution of this difficult question. The hon. member for Potchefstroom also raised the question in connection with admission to the medical course. If he hands me the documents referring to the matter I shall be glad to investigate it. At the moment it is not clear who is responsible, the Medical Council or the university authorities, but if he will give me the documents I will study them. The hon. member for Zoutpansberg (Mr. S. A. Cilliers) raised the question in connection with platteland children at technical colleges. In this vote we make provision for an appreciable increase in the amount available as bursaries for that purpose. As regards kindergartens the position is, as I stated, that it is definitely recognised as a provincial service, but my Department is making provision for the training of kindergarten teachers, and in that connection we expect that as the result of certain steps now being taken in Cape Town, there will be an appreciable improvement.

This debate has lasted for quite a while already, and I think that to some extent the Minister is the cause of its hawing lasted so long. The Minister was very directly asked: “Are you in favour of a policy of separate education at the universities for European and non-European?” The Minister rose here and what did he say? He said that there were many practical difficulties. Let me say very clearly that this side of the House is in favour of absolute segregation in every sphere, and we are in favour of segregation in the schools and universities, and I am very glad to see that even members opposite are opposed to that liberal standpoint of the Minister and that they themselves feel that there should be a dividing line between European and non-European in the universities. It is now being said that the expenses will be very high. The expense cannot be too high to maintain European civilisation in South Africa. Even though it costs millions of pounds, I say that we on this side are prepared to bear those costs to bring about that division. I therefore want to put this question to the Minister: Is he willing that those things should develop and continue as they are now doing in the universities, or is he prepared to tell us that he will see to it that a dividing line is drawn between European and non-European in the universities? We are not against educating the non-European, but in Heaven’s name, why should they be educated together with Europeans in the universities? We have heard that they do not feel at home amongst the Europeans, and it is a very good thing that they do not feel at home; they ought to be segregated. The hon. member for Gordonia (Mr. J. H. Conradie) put the matter as clearly here today as it can be stated, and I hope the Minister will now tell us that he will do his best to remove that existing difficulty. There are difficulties to be overcome. If we had no difficulties in this world it would have been a marvellous world, but if there are difficulties, they must be removed. The Minister knows very well that according to the existing laws universities cannot refuse admission to a non-European; therefore we say that the Minister must investigate the matter and see to it that the position is changed. We on this side of the House are determined, cost what it may, that a dividing line should be drawn between European and non-European in South Africa. I repeat that the Minister is perhaps the cause of this debate lasting so long, because he does not want to tell us directly what his standpoint is, whether he is prepared to let these things develop or whether he wants a division between European and non-European. While I am on my feet I should also like to raise a few matters in connection with conditions in my own constituency. I have already raised one question in connection with the National Board of Physical Training, and the Minister gave me a satisfactory reply, namely that those things are being investigated. I hope that as far as that question is concerned the necessary facilities will be made available and that the necessary money will be found. The second question I wish to raise in connection with my own constituency is the Industrial Agricultural School in Wolmaransstad.

Do you refer to the trade school?

Yes, the trade school. There are many more boys today seeking admission to that school. The school is completely full. There are no proper facilities for the teachers, and I hope, in view of the fact that that school is flourishing and that the children are applying for admission in such great numbers, that the Minister during this year in conjunction with the Minister of Public Works will make available the necessary facilities for the proper housing of the teachers and that the school will be further extended. The Minister knows that there is a wagon-making section. Wagons are being less used today and we can investigate the possibility whether that section could not perhaps after the war be converted to a section manufacturing motorcars and motor parts. This is an important question for the north-western province, and I hope that the Minister will meet us and extend that tradë school.

I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister that as regards the Northern Transvaal, from Pretoria northwards, there is not a single institution of any kind at all which falls under this particular vote. In that large area, one-third of the Transvaal, no provision is made for technical colleges, technical high schools, trades schools and domestic science schools. The people in those areas feel that they are being neglected, and therefore I wish to direct an earnest appeal to the Minister to devote his attention to the matter. He referred a moment ago to a commission which was appointed in connection with technical and vocational training. I do not know whether it is one of the functions of the commission to investigate in that direction. May I point out, as regards Pietersburg, that there we have a high school. I think there are almost 1,000 children. There is a primary school, with both Afrikaans and English medium. There is also the Roman Catholic School. Then there are a few school farms in the Northern Transvaal. That shows that there are a large number of children. Then there is the town of Louis Trichardt which has a high school. There are also high schools at Potgietersrust, Potchefstroom and Nylstroom. However no provision is made for educating those children when they leave school. There is not the least provision for advising them in which direction to go. When they themselves have decided to go in for one or other trade, there is not the least provision made for training them, and that is why I urge the Minister so strongly to devote his attention to those areas. There is the fullest justification for a technical college at Pietersburg; I say a technical college, not a technical high school. That will not only be welcomed, but will provide for a very great need seeing that there are thousands of children today who do not know where to go. We know what the agricultural position is in the Northern Transvaal. Many of those children cannot earn a living on the farms. The hon. the Minister of Lands the other day introduced a Bill here—I do not wish to talk about that matter now—but he himself said that where large numbers of children formerly could remain on the farms, seeing that these will now be Government farms, in future when they reach the age of 21 years they must leave those farms and find something else to do. If they have had no training, in which direction must they go? I therefore want to appeal to the Minister to make provision for an institution in the Northern Transvaal where the children can be trained. I want to ask the Minister to investigate the matter. I know that at this particular time it is pehaps not reasonable to expect that a thorough investigation should be instituted, but seeing that a commission has now been appointed to investigate the question of vocational training this matter can be investigated during this year, and perhaps next year provision can be made for erecting such an institution. Then I wish to say a few words in connection with the films manufactured by the Department. I refer especially to the film which at certain times is exhibited in certain portions of the country in connection with erosion. If there ever was education which is essential, it is in connection with the problem of soil erosion. This film is therefore of the very greatest value. But I understand that the Department only has one film which can be exhibited, and I want to appeal to the Minister, in view of the importance of the matter, to obtain various duplicates of the film.

I think steps have been taken in that direction.

I am sorry to have to say so, but that is not my information. I hope the Minister is correct when he says so but I travelled down in the train with the Director of Education of the Transvaal, and he told me that they have made representations to have more copies of the film, but they cannot obtain more films to exhibit. I am therefore glad to hear from the Minister that steps have been taken to have more copies made of the film. I have my information direct from the Director of Education and he is evidently not under the impression that provision has already been made for it. There is just one point more, in connection with the National Advisory Board for Physical Education, for which provision is made in the vote. I should like the Minister to explain what is covered by this amount. Why is this provision made? I see provision is made for one or two instructors. What do they do? Is it possible to made use of their services also on the platteland? I should be glad if the Minister will make a statement in this connection so that the country may know what is being done in that direction.

I want to associate myself with the last remark of the hon. member for Pietersburg (Mr. Naudé) in connection with physical training. I see provision is made only for three persons under the vote. I think there is one inspector and three officials. I think the Minister’s department should investigate the matter to see what facilities they can provide for the proper physical education of the nation. I think the Minister’s department ought to consult the Department of Social Welfare about this vote. Today at the University of Stellenbosch we have a faculty in connection with physical education. Men are being trained there and they receive a degree after a four years’ course, and I understand that it is one of the best degrees obtainable. But what happens to these men after having received their training? It seems as if there is very small scope for those well-qualified men when they have completed their course. According to my information there is only one province where they make use of such men, and that is in the Transvaal. But we must have a system over the whole country, a system of physical training clubs subsidised by the department together with the Department of Social Welfare, and in that way we must develop physical training culture in the country. Each year provision is made for only three persons. We should like to know where they are, who they are and where they are instructors. Then there is the question raised by the hon. member for Potchefstroom (Mr. Van der Merwe), namely the selection of medical students. Is the hon. Minister aware that this is bécoming a very important matter? At the University of Cape Town here a student can only be accepted as a medical student if he has passed his matriculation examination in the first class, and the hon. Minister knows that it is not always the first class matriculants who later make a success of life. There are also others. I know for example that there is a relative of the Minister in Cape Town who has been supporting the University of Cape Town for generations. I think for example of two brothers who each have a son whom they want to have a medical training, but the boys did not pass their matriculation first class, and consequently the university is closed to them. I consider that the Minister should get into touch with the Senate about the matter.

I have already said that I would do so.

That will be very good. I think that what the university authorities ought to do is this. They must interview the students personally. They cannot judge according to examination results. I know a large number of doctors who are excellent medical men but who did not pass their matriculation examinations first class. Then there is another matter I should like to deal with briefly. I want to associate myself with what the hon. member for Pietersburg said, that in the north-west there are no facilities for technical education, and I know that representations have already been made to the Minister by the Church Council of Upington and by the Town Council of Upington, and by the Church Councils along the Orange River, as also by the Town Council of Kenhardt. They formed a body which made representations to the hon. Minister, and I and the hon. member for Prieska (Mr. A. C. du Toit) were instructed to raise the matter and to point out to the Minister that the time has now arrived that a technical school should be erected at Upington. It is a matter with which we have dealt every year, but so far nothing has been done. The accommodation is there. It was formerly an institution which was formed by the hon. member for Wolmaransstad (Gen. Kemp) when he was Minister, for the training of farmers. Those areas are rapdily developing. There are in those areas between 30,000 and 40,000 Europeans who can support the technical college there, and I hope that when the hon. Minister rises here this evening he will tell me that the north-west Cape will receive a technical college. He will then perpetuate his name there.

Will I be able to stand there as a member of Parliament?

No, never.

Although my name is perpetuated there?

I just wat to tell the Minister that two weeks ago I had an actual case of two boys of 17 and 18 years who interviewed me in my office. They grew up along the Orange River. They must now leave under the new arrangements. They are two healthy boys and it seems to me that they are fairly intelligent, but they come out of a poor home. They must now leave there. They came here and told me: “Sir, can you not provide us with work; can you not advise us where to go?” All we could do is to send them to the Labour Bureau. There is no chance for them because they had no training. One of them is too old to become an apprentice. If there had been a technical college in those parts these boys could have gone there to fit themselves for one or other trade. Today they can do nothing but become unskilled labourers and they will remain that unless some provision is made for them. I hope the Minister will devote his serious attention to this matter. Then there is another point to which I want to draw the Minister’s attention, namely that the expenses of the platteland boy who wants to study to become a doctor are much greater than the expenses of the boy in the city, and the platteland boy is the one who knows the platteland. When he qualifies he can return to the platteland, because the platteland attracts him. I therefore feel that the Department should consider making bursaries available for platteland children who want to become doctors. One can for example fix a radius of 100 miles from the nearest university. I do not say it must be exactly 100 miles; I just take that distance for the sake of argument. If they live more than 100 miles from the university and are accepted by the university they ought to receive a bursary. The bursary need not be granted to them as a gift. It can be done by way of a loan. I really think that the necessity for doctors on the platteland will become increasingly greater and we must enable these people to be trained as doctors. If a scheme like that is initiated it will be a great service to the country. Parents are telling us in increasing numbers that they cannot bear the great expense of having their children trained as doctors. To educate a boy at the Cape Town University today costs approximately £220 per annum. They must remain here longer than in any other faculty, their semesters are longer than the usual ones, and their expenses proportionately greater. I think the Minister should also devote his attention to this aspect of the matter.

I should just like to reply to the questions put by the hon. member for Wolmaransstad (Gen. Kemp) and other hon. members. I think I have already replied to the questions raised by him. I said in the first place I was not prepared to initiate legislation to force the principle of separatism on the universities as long as we are not able to provide proper facilities for non-Europeans. Secondly I said that I was prepared, as I indicated, during the recess to investigate the possibility of the erection of a medical school for non-Europeans in general, or for natives. Thirdly I again wish to say what I said before, that I am in favour of the maintenance of separateness in the social sphere also as regards the universities. I now wish to deal with other points raised here. The hon. member for Wolmaransstad raised the point in connection with the request of his municipality for a grant in connection with physical training. The Physical Training Board will meet in May or June, and then probably the request, if submitted, will be dealt with. As regards higher technical schools, I can give the hon. member for Wolmaransstad the assurance that my Department is only too anxious to extend those schools, but in the first place we are faced with the shortage of building material. I have already explained that to other hon. members. We have a very large programme for the building and expansion of our schools. All the work has been delayed, and we can only promise that we will do our best as far as possible to meet the requirements. The hon. member for Pietersburg (Mr. Naudé) pointed out that there is no institution falling under my Department north of Pretoria, and the hon. member for Gordonia (Mr. J. H. Conradie) said that there was no institution falling under my Department in the north-west. Those are the two main areas of the country where there are no institutions of my Department. That is quite correct. Those are the parts of our country on which my Department continuously keeps its eye, but as the hon. member for Pietersburg correctly said, it was impossible to have expansion in war time. There are two aspects of the matter. One is making available the necessary building material and the second is the possibility that as a result of the enquiry being made by the commission to which I referred more than once in this debate, it may possibly happen that these institutions will be transferred to the provinces. Personally I hope that this will not happen, but in all honesty I had to submit the question to the commission, and it may be that they report in that direction. I do not think that the commission will take long to complete its work. The commission is not very large, it is a practical commission and I expect to have their report during the course of this year. Then we shall.be able to take the whole matter into review and we shall then perhaps also know more about the possibility of solving our difficulties in connection with building material. I can however assure the hon. members that we are always keeping in mind those two parts of the country and their requirements.

Why is it that these two great areas in the past were always neglected?

Schools of this nature in the past were not erected according to a preconceived plan. The hon. member for Piquetberg (Dr. Malan), when he was Minister, took most of these schools over from the churches or from the provinces, and in the past they were not built according to a preconceived plan covering the whole Union; I therefore found myself in the position of having a series of schools which were erected without a proper plan. Most of the schools were insufficiently equipped, and our first task was to try to keep the existing schools in existence. Therefore the answer to the question is the historical one, but I fully realise that the two areas mentioned have a prior claim on us. A question was asked in connection with the arrangements made for physical training. The chief provision made is the lump sum made available for the National Board for Physical Education. Originally it was £30,000, but £11,000 has been transferred to the provinces, and now appears on the Provincial Accounts, leaving a balance of £19,000. That is used to assist various bodies in developing physical training. There are the schools of my Department, there are the universities, especially that of Stellenbosch—the excellent course at Stellenbosch which could only have been built up with the help of my Department, as I think is recognised—there are the municipalities, there are the physical training clubs, etc. They are all assisted from the funds of my Department. Then the board also used some of its funds—that is now returning—for the issue of books on training to the various bodies. There are books of great value in English and in Afrikaans. These books are now all being used, and we are proceeding further in extending the series of books. The three persons on the roll of employees of my Department are those persons who do not themselves go out to give lessons, but they are organisers, advisors. They advise my Advisory Board, and also give advice to universities and clubs in various parts of the country. The assistance given to municipalities very often takes the form of grants in connection with swimming baths or the erection of halls. Help of this nature is also given to schools, and along these lines physical culture is encouraged over the whole country. Much good work has already been done, and I hope that in future we shall be able to extend it. As regards the selection of medical students, the general position is that the facilities for European students at our universities are insufficient, and that is a matter which I am going to discuss with the universities, and the matter of the selection of medical students which was raised, will then of course also be discussed. As regards bursaries for university students, the general policy is that we do not award bursaries but we give a lump sum to each university, and the universities make their own provisions and their own arrangements. The hon. member has however raised the possibility of bursaries in the form of loans to medical students. I shall investigate that matter.

I should like to ask a few more questions, and the first is a very important question, namely in connection with the training of chartered accountants. I think it falls under this vote.

That is done at the universities, yes.

It seems to me that nowhere in South Africa has proper provision been made, especially as regards training through Afrikaans medium.

At the University of Pretoria?

No. I can say what takes place in Cape Town. The students have the right there to reply in Afrikaans, and then the reply is translated into English after which it is corrected by the examinators. That is an unsound position, and I think the hon. Minister must investigate the matter and see to it that it is rectified. Afrikaans-speaking boys adopt this profession in increasing numbers, and it is essential to rectify the matter. Then there is the question of bursaries. I was surprised that the Chairman allowed a discussion, in view of the motion standing in my name on the Order Paper in connection with the loan bursary system. I am however glad that the matter has been raised and I should like to say a few words about it. I want to plead for it that a lump sum should not be given to the universities, but that there should be a sum out of which students can obtain a loan, free of interest and on easy conditions of repayment.

I shall investigate the matter.

I shall be glad. Then there is the expenditure in connection with the Education Bulletin. Will that be issued again?

As soon as the bureau can be brought into existence again.

Will it be considered in the near future?

Oh, yes.

Then a last matter, namely in connection with State-aided schools. There are two kinds, namely special schools for backward children, etc., and then there are special schools, like for example the Marist Brothers College.

No, they are not included in this.

Do they not receive State assistance?

Perhaps from the provinces.

No, they fall outside the provinces.

They are vocational sections which exist in connection with the Langlaagte Orphange and the Salesian Institute in Cape Town. There they make provision for vocational training and we assist them. They are the only ones included in this.

Then there is still the matter which was raised by the hon. member for Wolmaransstad (Gen. Kemp), and I think that is important. I see in the same bulletin that after thorough investigation it was found that attention must be directed to a characteristic of the table of statistics (in regard to vocational education) namely that although there is an increase as regards entrance to the vocational school, the number of children who receive special education and vocational training, like agricultural education, industrial education, vocational education, commercial education and domestic science, is very small in relation to the number of European students in general in South Africa. It also makes clear the necessity for such schools in Gordonia and Pietersburg and such places.

I admit that.

It seems to me that the matter is being neglected, and statistics confirm that impression.

I should like to ask the Minister whether the Government has already finally taken a decision in connection with the future of the Central Organisation of Technical Training, an organisation which came into existence since the war. I see in the Auditor-General’s report that at a special meeting held on 27th Noevmber, 1944, at which a representative of the Union Department of Education was present, it was stated that a delegation from the Director-General of Supplies met the Minister of Education to discuss the possible use of the Central Organisation of Technical Training in the period immediately after the war, and that at that discussion it was agreed that at the end of the first stage of the war, the organisation will be taken over by the Department of Education as an existing organisation. Now I should like to know whether a decision has already been taken, and if so, what opportunity the Minister will give to Parliament, before we disperse, to discuss the matter.

Which matter?

The matter of the retention of this organisation, not as part of the military machine, but as part of the Department of Education of the Union. Will the Minister give this House the opportunity to discuss it, because we should like to know how the Minister will fit in this body. Will it only be for returned soldiers?

No.

Does the Minister intend it to be a temporary or a permanent institution for the training of artisans? I know that this organisation was brought into being to fit soldiers, or people in the army by means of intensive training for a trade within a fraction of the time normally required for such training. If the Minister retains this organisation it may prove to be one of the best forms of vocational training for the future, and that it fits in best in the modern state and with our modern industrial development. It may be so. How will it then affect technical schools in future? I should be glad if the Minister would tell us something in that connection.

The matter raised by the hon. member for George (Mr. Werth) is a very important one and it is one of the matters giving rise to the appointment of a commission in regard to technical education and vocational training, to which I have already referred several times today. As he stated, during the war a system of vocational training which is much more simple than the one to which we have been accustomed—the old system of appreticeship and technical college training—was evolved. It was adopted as a war measure and people trained by means of it received recognition for their training. But now we are on the eve of peace. It is in the first place clear that something like that cannot continue to exist under the Department of Defence. The war is a passing matter and therefore it will have to be decided whether this organisation should be taken over by the Department of Education temporarily or permanently. Then the question is how far the new method of training will be of permanent value. We can no longer train for the war, but will now train for peace. We must now consider whether the idea underlying the foundation of the training can bring about a change in our whole system of technical training. It may be so. It may be that we have there found a better system of technical training than has existed up to now. But it is a very difficult matter, and it is the first question to be solved by the commission which I appointed, this very question. At the moment I can therefore go no further, and I cannot say how far it will develop in peace-time.

It will not be only for returned soldiers?

In the first place we will continue with the work which has been done, and it therefore follows that in the first place returned soldiers fall under the scheme, but I hope that in future something will be evolved from this which will be of benefit to all for returned soldiers as well as others. Perhaps there will be a general change in the system of technical training, and it may of course also have a great influence on the work of the technical colleges. The whole matter is thus being considered along those lines. It is a comprehensive question and I think the hon. member will have to be satisfied with this reply for the present.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote No. 18.—“Industrial Schools and Reformatories”, £320,000.

I should like to have some clarity in connection with this vote. We should like to know what falls under the industrial schools at present. Formerly when the church erected industrial schools, they fell under the Provincial Administration.

The industrial schools which are included here are a different class of schools. The word “industrial school” has a fairly wide use. As the hon. member stated, the church also erected industrial schools, but the industrial schools of the church are practically the same as trades schools, and the church schools were taken over by my Department, like the one at Uitenhage, which recently celebrated its 50th year of existence. Those are the old industrial schools which today are trades schools or higher technical schools. The industrial schools which fall under this vote are the schools which were taken over by my Department years ago from the Department of Justice. They were initiated from the beginning as State institutions for poor and neglected children and children who got into trouble with the law. There are approximately seven of them and later we also took over the reformatories from the Department of Justice. Those are the only ones dealt with here.

With reference to the position of the industrial schools in our educational system today, I should like to put a question to the Minister. I think South Africa owes a debt of gratitude to the late Mr. George Hofmeyr.

One of the schools bears his name.

In the past there was a blot on those schools because a number of children were sent there who had broken the law in some way, and my first question to the Minister is whether those schools today still essentially consist of children who were committed there, children from neglected homes or children who broke the law. That aspect of the contraventions I shall deal with in a moment in connection with reformatories. My question is whether, seeing there are about 1,600 children of that nature in our society, a certain mark remains on the children? I take it that essentially they are children from the poorer households, just because social conditions perhaps make it necessary for the State to be responsible. In such cases it is not a case of lack of character, but the economic and social conditions are the reason why the children must be removed from that environment. Where the schools in the past bore an unfavourable trade mark and a dividing line was practically drawn between them and children in other schools who came out of other homes, the question must sooner or later be answered: Do we now permit that mark to remain in existence on these individual schools, or have steps already been taken by means of which these schools will be brought into closer contact with ordinary education in our country? Not too long ago I had the duty of investigating matters in an area where there is one of these industrial schools. I then noticed a feeling on both sides, on the part of the personnel and on the part of the general public in the vicinity —a certain measure of antipathy, or rather of lack of sympathy for the attempt to bring these schools nearer and closer together to the education system, and to leave in existence a dividing line between these schools and the Education Department in general, with the result that there is the danger that these children will leave the schools and enter life under a blot. The question I put to the hon. Minister is whether any arrangement has been made whereby boys and girls from this type of school have the opportunity to develop out of the environment, out of the atmosphere of these schools to something higher? Is there an opportunity for those who show promise, for example, to go to another school? Is there an arrangement with the provincial authorities?

Yes, they can transfer.

Has the Education Department the right to transfer certain of these boys? Is there a system of testing these children as regards their capabilities, whereby the boys and girls will have the opportunity of developing in a natural direction, some to become artisans and others to do more intellectual work? Is there such a system by means of which they can develop further? The idea of the atmosphere of the poor law school must be removed if it is possible apart from the question of whether children are still sent there when they have made a mis-step. I know that the Minister is sympathetic towards the less privileged but I should like to remove everything in the way of preventing them from becoming good citizens of South Africa. What possibilities exist? Another question I should like to ask the Minister is in connection with the reformatories. There are quite a number of them, also with about 1,500 occupants. Can the hon. Minister tell us approximately how many are Europeans and how many nonEuropeans in the various classes of nonEuropeans? I feel that here also there is scope for preparing the ground so that fewer of these unfortunates come into the reformatories. But seeing the number is so large, how many of them are Europeans? I notice that there are fairly heavy costs in connection with the vote. I am not against it that the State should do its duty towards these unfortunate people and train them to become useful citizens of the State, but the question is whether they are being trained to be self-sufficient. I take it that the first aim of such an institution should be character building, and removing them from the environment where their mis-step took place, away from the influences which caused the weakness. The aim should be to make independent people of them. In how far does the training comply with the aim of enabling them to live a decent life? I have nothing against the vote as such, nor against the amount, but I should like to know from the Minister what we are doing to turn them into men and women who can later make a decent living without again landing in the hands of the Department of Justice.

I think we all share the views of the hon. member for Ceres (Dr. Stals) in regard to the important work which is being done by these schools. As far as the industrial schools are concerned, the pupils are all children who were committed under the Act. It also includes children who committed some contravention or other. They must have a haven somewhere, and we cannot send them all to reformatories. These schools are for children who committed more serious offences. We do not want to send them to gaol. There must therefore be institutions for children who contravene the law. The work which is being done in those schools, as far as possible, is the same as that done in the normal schools. In many cases the children attend the ordinary provincial high schools. I suppose there have also been cases where children from the industrial schools have later gone to university. There are cases where some of them are today occupying posts on the staff of that institution. The hon. member will be able to infer from that that we are doing a great deal to strengthen the independence and self-respect of the children and to retain that spirit amongst them. We are doing everything we can to let them come into contact with children of other schools on the sportsground. That also applies to the reformatories. The Constantia institution at Tokai regularly takes part in sporting activities together with the most important schools in the Cape Peninsula. The hon. member will see from that in what spirit we control these institutions. It was asked how many Europeans there were in the reformatories. The majority of them are non-Europeans. In the Constantia institution at Tokai we have approximately 150 to 200 European boys, and at Durbanville we have approximately 15 European girls. Furthermore, these institutions make provision for non-Europeans. With regard to the possibility of encouraging production at these institutions, I can say that that is also part of our policy, and my hon. friend will see that there is an amount of £10,000 on this vote as a result of that.

Is it not for industrial schools only?

No, for both.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote No. 19.—“Native Education”, £2,530,000.

I wanted to raise this point under B, but in view of the discussion we have had here today, it is not necessary for me to do so now. I now come to item E, “School Feeding”. I should like to know from the Minister what the position is in connection with this amount. At the moment the provinces are responsible for native education, but the Treasury provides this amount of £380,000 for school feeding in respect of native children. Who will be in charge of the expenditure of that sum? Are there local organisations which are able to ensure that that amount is spent properly so that we can get value for this money?

That amount is controlled by the Provincial Administrations which operate through local committees and which have to take certain steps to ensure that the money is properly spent and that the school feeding is properly arranged. The same procedure is followed as was followed in the past.

I should like to know from the Minister why such a large amount is being provided in respect of native feeding. Has there been any medical investigation to prove that the native children are undernourished? Will the Minister be good enough to tell us what sum is being spent on Europeans who are undernourished? I feel that this is a very large sum. A burden is being imposed on the Europeans to provide food for these native children while there are thousands of European children who are under-nourished. Because we devote this large sum to native children, it follows that we must devote less to European children.

This is in pursuance of a scheme which is already in existence. There is only a change in the bookkeeping of the expenditure now being incurred. The provision which is being made for Europeans will be at least £600,000, but that is done through the provinces. This amount is the amount which is being made available to the provinces on the basis of a full year’s work. There is no change as far as that is concerned. It is a system which is in operation today, and a larger sum is being made available for the Europeans.

I just want to remind the Minister of the fact that in the past we have constantly opposed this system of providing food to native children at school. I personally want to say that I regard it as unsound to give the children food at school, free of charge, even in the case of European children. It is an unsound system unless the circumstances are such that something of that kind is needed. Even as far as the Europeans are concerned I should prefer the parents to be enabled to feed their children properly rather than to give them something free of charge. That principle in itself is wrong, quite apart from the necessity for school-going children to be fed properly. One realises that a growing child must be fed properly but it is altogether wrong to give food to the children free of charge. In any event, as far as the native children are concerned, I want to repeat that we as the European race are dealing with this matter in a different way as far as the natives are concerned, with the result that not only is the native being hopelessly spoilt, but the position of the European is made altogether untenable. There are marly case of which I have personal knowledge. Take the case of a small native school on a farm. The young natives attend school. There is no question of their being without food. But they are now being fed at school practically on the doorstep of the native’s hut. I am speaking of cases of which I have personal knowledge. That child gets one meal a day only, in accordance with their custom. In other words, the duty of the native to feed his own child, falls away completely. He no longer has any responsibility whatsoever to feed the child. The result is that that native who, from the nature of things, works as little as possible, is now going to work even less, because there is even less incentive for him to work. I am speaking of something of which I know. I am speaking as someone who knows the character of the native. The native does not like to work. There is only one reason why he works, and that is because he is hungry. ’He only works because he is forced by hunger to take up employment. The hon. member for Pretoria (Sunnyside) (Mr. Pocock) who knows as little about a kaffir as he knows about a Chinaman may not realise that, but those of us who know the natives, realise that the native in his natural state was not a person who worked. He remained idle. He was a warrior. The work was done by the native women.

At 6.40 p.m. the Chairman stated that, in accordance with the Sessional Order adopted on the 25th January, 1945, and Standing Order No. 26 (1), he would report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

The CHAIRMAN reported progress and asked leave to sit again; House to resume in Committee on 18th April.