I beg to give notice of motion as follows—

As this motion raises a question of privilege, I would like to hear from you, Mr. Speaker, whether precedence will be given to it to-morrow.

As the motion involves a matter of privilege the notice will be given precedence to-morrow.

I move—

I hope that the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Sir Thomas Smartt) will withdraw the motion. It is very clear that no facilities are given by hon. members to expedite the work and to get it through in due time and if we go and do that then we shall only bring about a delay on each vote that is dealt with separately. If hon. members opposite had really given proof of wanting to help to get the work of the House finished then I could understand it, but up to the present no such proof has been given. In the circumstances I cannot approve of the motion of the hon. member for Fort Beaufort and I want to ask him to withdraw it. Hon. members of the House have the fullest opportunity to bring before the House and to discuss the questions they wish to raise on the various votes. What happens now is that hon. members go—some, one would almost say, intentionally—to put up a hare that the House talks about the whole afternoon and sometimes right through the night, and the same subject is discussed three or four times, and matters that have been completely disposed of come before the House again. In the circumstances I hope that the hon. member will withdraw the motion because the work will not be advanced thereby.

I just want to point out to the hon. Prime Minister that he is wrong. The object is not to retard the work but to expedite it as much as possible in order to obviate the difficulty experienced yesterday. Yesterday the discussion ran on a few points chiefly about scab although the agricultural estimates consist of a large number of votes. I do not want to again discuss the occurrences yesterday, but I just want to point out that the other points were never discussed.

Why not?

Because hon. members did not want to cause confusion by bringing up other points when a particular matter was under discussion. I think the same thing may occur if we discuss all the colleges at the same time. We shall get confusion if we discuss them all together. It will expedite matters to take the points seriatim. Many will be accepted without discussion. Unfortunately, the opportunity was not given yesterday to discuss certain points, until members’ mouths were shut by the closure of the debate. I think that the Prime Minister will find out that the motion is intended to expedite matters. The object is not to talk about every point.

Before you put that, Mr. Chairman, may I point out to the committee that this is no unusual procedure. It is an understood thing, session after session, that votes are taken seriatim. In a vote of this sort we have agricultural colleges and experimental stations, and if the Prime Minister will look at the vote he will find that we have not only these, but we have the purchase of stock, agricultural scholarships and bursaries, which he must know is constantly discussed; and then there are the grants in respect of faculties of agriculture. Surely it is not asking too much for the purpose of having a proper discussion on these votes that they should be taken seriatim? It is the first time in my experience that an ordinary proposal of this character has been refused by the Government; I have never known it refused before. If the Prime Minister will say that it is the fixed determination of the Government with the majority they have behind them, to prevent proper discussion of Supply, then the House and the country will know where they stand; but it is the prerogative of every member to have a full opportunity of discussing votes of this character. I think it will be realized that this agricultural educational vote is one of extreme importance. It runs into a very large amount of money; and this is debarring hon. members from discussing it properly by refusing to take the votes seriatim. I understood last night that the Minister was opposed to discussing fully the vote.

When did he say so?

Because the hon. Minister voted for the closure, having been consulted before the closure was passed, and the hon. gentleman knows that there was no very long discussion yesterday.

Oh!

I have known the House discuss scab for three whole days in the old Cape Parliament. The Minister took up half the time, and hon. members opposite took a very great interest in the discussion. I can only appeal to the Prime Minister. I think my proposal is extremely fair, and if he is determined to prevent hon. members on this side of the House discussing the various votes under sub-head 29, he must take the responsibility.

Motion put, and Sir Thomas Smartt called for a division.

Upon which the Committee divided:

Ayes—37.

Anderson, H. E. K.

Ballantine, R.

Brown, D. M.

Buirski, E.

Byron, J. J.

Deane, W. A.

Duncan, P.

Geldenhuys, L.

Gilson, L. D.

Giovanetti, C. W.

Grobler, H. S.

Harris, D.

Heatlie, C. B.

Henderson, J.

Jagger, J. W.

Krige, C. J.

Louw, G. A.

Louw, J. P.

Macintosh, W.

Moffat, L.

Nel, O. R.

Nicholls, G. H.

Oppenheimer, E.

Payn, A. O. B.

Pretorius, N. J.

Reitz, D.

Richards, G. R.

Rider, W. W.

Sephton, C. A. A.

Smartt, T. W.

Smuts, J. C.

Struben, R. H.

Stuttaford, R.

Van Heerden, G. C.

Van Zyl, G. B.

Tellers: Robinson, C. P.; De Jager, A. L.

Noes—53.

Alexander, M.

Allen, J.

Badenhorst, A. L.

Barlow, A. G.

Bergh, P. A.

Brink, G. F.

Brits, G. P.

Brown, G.

Cilliers, A. A.

Conradie, J. H.

Conroy, E. A.

Creswell, F. H. P.

De Villiers, P. C.

De Villiers, W. B.

De Wet, S. D.

Fick, M. L.

Fordham, A. C.

Grobler, P. G. W.

Havenga, N. C.

Hay, G. A.

Hertzog, J. B. M.

Heyns, J. D.

Hugo, D.

Kemp, J. C. G.

Kentridge, M.

Keyter, J. G.

Le Roux, S. P.

Louw, E. H.

Madeley, W. B.

Malan, C. W.

Malan, D. F.

Malan, M. L.

Mostert, J. P.

Naudé, A. S.

Oost, H.

Pretorius, J. S. F.

Raubenheimer, I. van W.

Reyburn, G.

Rood, W. H.

Roos, T. J. de V.

Roux, J. W. J. W.

Stals, A. J.

Strachan, T. G.

Swart, C. R.

Van Niekerk, P. W. le R.

Van Rensburg, J. J.

Van Zyl, J. J. M.

Waterston, R. B.

Werth, A. J.

Wessels, J. B.

Wessels, J. H. B.

Tellers: Pienaar, B. J.; Vermooten, O. S.

Motion accordingly negatived.

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I find there are no less than 43 sub-heads to this vote, and it would be greatly to the convenience of hon. members on this side if we could have some idea of the time that will be allotted to this particular vote.

This is a matter which is entirely in the hands of the committee.

Under the sub-heads “M” and “N” are grants-in-aid of faculties of agriculture at the Transvaal University College and the University of Stellenbosch. Originally these Votes were included under “Higher Education,” but for the last two years they have been placed under “Agriculture.” I am not objecting to the vote, but I should like to know under which regulation these grants-in-aid are made, for similar grants are not made for the faculties of medicine and engineering, although their cost is very considerable. The other night a comparison was made between the universities, much to the detriment of the Cape Town university, and it is due to us that we should know why there is this difference in treatment

I understand that the difference in treatment referred to by the last speaker was carried out under regulations formulated by the late Government in 1922. Parliament should know what each university is getting from the State, and the hon. member who spoke on this question the other day lost sight of certain items which come under the Agricultural Vote and which are really grants in aid of higher education. I wish to draw attention to the complete lack of proper facilities for the education of women in agriculture, and also to the necessity of establishing a women’s agricultural college. I do so at the request of the National Council of Women and the Women’s Enfranchisement Association, as showing that women are occupying themselves with other things than the mere obtaining of the vote. For 14 years women’s organizations and individuals throughout the Union have been clamouring for proper facilities for women to receive an agricultural education. The only thing that is being done in this direction is the holding of short courses at the Government agricultural colleges while the male students are away on holiday. The late General Botha said that if a demand was made for such education provision would be made. Well, there is a good deal of demand for it, as is shown by the fact that when a temporary farm settlement existed at Potchefstroom there were 180 applications from prospective women students. At one time, when there were only seven men students at Cedara, it was decided to open it to women, and this was done in June, 1917, and the experiment proved most satisfactory. During the 17 months the college was open to women 85 attended the courses. However, the place was closed to women because it was required for returned soldiers. I think it was in 1920 that Mr. F. S. Malan, who was then Minister of Agriculture, promised to open Mariendahl as a women’s agricultural college, but that promise was not carried out because of a lack of funds. Thus, if the South African woman wants to receive education in an agricultural college she has to go overseas for it. That is a very bad state of affairs.

The hon. member appears to be discussing policy. Under this vote he can discuss only administration.

This is administration, because it does not require any legislation to bring into effect.

What item does the hon. member refer to?

Glen, or Elsenburg. The Government should arrange for one of these colleges to be available for the training of women. According to the last industrial census 3,724 women were occupied in agriculture in the Union. The Minister should set apart at least one college where women could have a chance of receiving training. A courageous woman—Miss Miller—has started a private institution on Boschetto Farm, near Harrismith, where women are trained in agriculture, and the least the Government should do is to give a grant to this lady who is making a remarkable success of her venture. Thirty-two women have, so far, passed through her hands. The cost of the experts alone at the farm is £500 a year, and the Government should at any rate make a grant to meet that expenditure. In September last the principal of the Glen School of Agriculture gave a glowing account of what was being done by Miss Miller in the training of women as farmers. The men spend a lot of their time on political matters, and at such times the women are called upon to run the farms. I ask you then to give her a scientific education so that she will be able to run the farm better. It is one of the most serious defects in our agricultural education that if a South African woman wants to study agriculture at an agricultural college she must go overseas for her education. I ask you to give a grant and so encourage these women.

I am glad to hear that the hon. member for Cape Town (Hanover Street) (Mr. Alexander) also feels that the country is not getting sufficient value to-day for the money which is spent on agricultural education. We spend every year about £131,000 on the five agricultural colleges, and the question arises whether the money spent produces sufficient results. When we see how inaccessible those colleges are for most of our boys, then there is no doubt, I think, that the country does not get sufficient value for the money which is spent in this way. We must do one of two things. Either extend the colleges further so that they are accessible for more children, or create a different system of agricultural education, and there is no doubt that the latter is what is required in the country to-day. I was nevertheless glad to hear from the hon. the Minister of Education what I hoped to hear also from the hon. Minister of Agriculture how the Government intended to see to it that in future agricultural education shall be given in the proper way, and I think that the proper way is for every child that goes to school to receive agricultural education. In consequence of our having in the past neglected education in this direction, the condition of our farmers is what it is to-day, and I think that the first thing to be done is the institution of general agricultural education at the ordinary school, and as regards the existing agricultural colleges, I think that it would be a wrong policy to extend them, and I think that it would be better to create the system which the Government clearly intends to follow, namely, to see to it that as regards higher training in the agricultural education to rather do it in connection with the various universities we have and there to give our sons and daughters the opportunity to qualify themselves especially in this branch. We must, I feel, rather extend or support the faculties in order to give those who want to take a degree in agriculture the opportunity at the universities and to enable them to thoroughly equip themselves to teach agriculture or their sons to become farmers. This as to children who after having enjoyed ordinary school teaching want to proceed to qualify themselves in agriculture. But then there always remains the large number of children who do not have the chance of going to colleges and therefore I think the hon. Minister should take considerable trouble to introduce more agricultural education at the industrial schools than we have to-day, and I was glad to learn from the hon. Minister of Education that all endeavours were being made in that direction to-day. If agricultural education is also given in the industrial schools then the ordinary child can also get it and be fitted to subsequently get work on a farm. The object of the State in the education of children should be to see to it that they are trained in the direction of where the vacancies are, and I am sufficiently bold to say that I think that in no direction are there more openings than in that of agriculture, and therefore our State ought to see to it that our young boys, especially the poor classes, shall be educated in this direction, so that later on they can give their services to the country in agriculture. If faculties for agriculture are established in the industrial schools, then our sons will have the opportunity to become useful to the country. In this direction we already have the example of the agricultural school at Tweespruit, and I think that school has already shown that the best results can be expected from those sort of institutions. Many of our sons go there and enjoy a proper training and subsequently become capable foremen or experienced workers on the country side. If the system is further extended and supported, then we shall be meeting a very great demand in the country. There undoubtedly exists to-day amongst our farmers a great need for trained workers. Inexperienced workers there are enough of in the country, and what is required are experienced agricultural workers.

I want to point out to the hon. member that he cannot discuss the policy that the Government must follow. He must confine himself more to the vote under discussion.

My point is, therefore, that we do not get sufficient value for the money that is spent and that better results can be obtained for the money in another way. If the Government go and relegate higher education more to the universities then it can better apply the money which is now voted for the colleges for experimental farms and thereby practically help the farmers. We see that the expenditure on experimental farms by the Government only amounts to about £1,000, but by economizing in the manner indicated more will be available to be spent on the experimental farms. As regards experimental farms, take the north-west, which is to-day in a very sad position. There the people were occupied in a certain agricultural industry, the industry has slumped and they would be very glad to take up something else, but they have not sufficient knowledge to start another branch of agricultural industry, it will, therefore, be very useful if there were agricultural farms in that district.

I should like to say a few words about agricultural training for the western province and the south-western districts. We have the Elsenberg agricultural college, but the Minister will agree with me that Elsenberg is not a suitable training school for young people who want to go in for wool and grain farming. I admit that it is impossible to have an agricultural school in every district, but I can show the Minister that the farmers of the districts of Caledon, Bredasdorp, Swellendam and Riversdale, notwithstanding all their grain, have over a million sheep. I can, however, assure him that very little is done by Government to push these two great industries of the farmers mentioned. If it were possible I should like to see an agricultural school established for the south-western districts. Caledon and Bredasdorp are connected by a railway. They are typical districts of those portions which have progressed wonderfully in the matter of agriculture and wool farming. Meanwhile I think that much can be done by bringing the lecturers more into direct touch with the farmers. I will go further and say that there are various clever professors at Stellenbosch, and that they are not overburdened with work. Is it not possible to have better co-ordination of work between the lecturers at Elsenberg and the professors at Stellenbosch? Such specialists can then be sent out more to places where there are no agricultural schools. Take grain farming. The more the grain districts are developed the more scientific knowledge is necessary and we feel that we cannot make a success of grain farming unless continuous technical advice is given us. The manuring of the ground and the kind of seed are cardinal points in connection with the production of grain and the Minister must see whether it is not possible to bring the specialists into touch with the farmers to give them advice in that regard. Take wool farming. It is one of the staple products of the country. The farmers in the parts mentioned have about a million sheep, but if a farmer wishes to be trained at Grootfontein then he must first form an association of wool producers, and then such a person finds it difficult to gain admission. He must wait his turn. Many of the young farmers are anxious to get the necessary training and I want to ask the Minister in this connection if it is not possible to bring the specialists more into touch with the wool farmers. The Minister will render us a great service if he does that. There are good men at Stellenbosch, but there is no chance for them to reach the farmers. If the Minister takes this hint it will complete the need of an agricultural college in a great measure.

I should like this afternoon to break a lance for the Glen Agricultural School. When a few days ago I discussed the need of an institution for higher technical education in the Free State the hon. Minister of Education told me that the Free State actually had no need of it because the Free State did not count much in industrial matters, and did not have many factories, but I do not think that the hon. Minister of Agriculture can raise the same objection to a good institution for agricultural education in the Free State. I would boldly say that in no province in the Union does agriculture play such a great part as in the Free State. I can prove by figures that the Free State is entirely and almost exclusively depends on agriculture. Let me give a few figures The taxable incomes from farming from the four provinces are: In the Cape Province, £1,370,000; in Natal, only £322,000; in the Transvaal, £613,000; but in the Free State, £1,348,000, thus twice as much as in the Transvaal. This works out per head of the agricultural population (the taxable incomes) at £4 10s. in the Cape Province, £5 10s. in Natal, £3 in the Transvaal, but in the Free State at not less than £12 per head. If we further observe the relation between the taxable income from agriculture and other taxable incomes then we find that for the Cape Province it is 7.3 of all taxable income, in Natal 4.2, in the Transvaal 2.6 and in the Free State 30 per cent. Thirty per cent. compared with 2.6 per cent. in the Transvaal. That gives an idea of the important role that agriculture plays in the Free State and, therefore, I think that the hon. Minister of Agriculture should take a very sympathetic view of agricultural education in the Free State. Now, I should like to say a few words with regard to the new system which the hon. Minister of Agriculture has already introduced or intends to do. I understand that the agricultural colleges are not all going to specialize in all branches of agriculture, but that each of the agricultural colleges will be given two or three departments to specialize in. In the departmental report I notice the following division. At Elsenburg, winter crops, fruit culture, viticulture and horticulture; at Grootfontein, sheep and goat farming, ostrich farming and all intensive forms of farming; at Potchefstroom, maize, kaffir corn and cattle breeding; Cedara (Natal), dairy and bacon industry; Glen (Free State), only dairy and bacon farming, and the training of managers of dairies as well, and also poultry. Thus we see that we share the dairy industry and pig farming with Natal. The only thing in which we specialize is poultry, which is quite a side line in the Free State. The three chief agricultural industries in the Free State are sheep first, cattle second, mealies third. The Free State produces more mealies than all the other provinces put together, viz., about 8,000,000 per annum, while the other provinces together do not produce 7,000,000. We have more cattle than the Cape Province and Natal together. In sheep we come second among the provinces. The Cape Province has 11,000,000 and we have 7,000,000. The three largest sheep districts are in the Free State, namely, Bloemfontein, Harrismith and Winburg.

I would like to know from the Minister whether the agricultural colleges are paying sufficient attention to snub-nose beetle in gum trees. I would also like to ask the Minister whether at the Cedara college at Natal these particular diseases are kept before the students there. The Minister was approached last year, and he did his best, but his handicap was that he had not sufficient entomologists. I hope he will be able to remedy that. Then I should like to know what steps can be taken in regard to checking bag worm in wattles. Hitherto South America was regarded as the principal country for tanning material, but their supplies have diminished and now South Africa is looked upon as becoming the premier country. Last year £960,000 worth of tanning material was exported. Whenever we get a bad attack of bag worm it reduces the output by 25 per cent. I maintain that in the near future we shall be the premier country in the world for supplying tanning material. We are not the only country for wattles. East Africa supplies them, but there they are a thousand miles away from the sea, while we are in the fortunate position that our wattle-bearing land is only 250 miles away from the ocean. The development of this industry is progressing at a great rate, and I would stress upon the Minister to do his best to help us in regard to combating this disease. If he will do that it will be the means of increasing the wealth of those who are embarked upon the industry.

To proceed, I do not want the Minister to take anything away from the existing agricultural colleges, all that I have tried to show is that sheep farming plays a great role in the Free State, and I would like the Minister also to give an opportunity for specialising in the matter of sheep farming. The district of Bloemfontein has 800,000. sheep, and there is no other district in the Union that has more than 500,000. And then I want to discuss the use of native labour at the agricultural schools, taking Glen as an example. I understand that no less than 80 natives are employed there. There are about 63 natives working about the farm, and 17 in connection with the school, and I will say that there is not the least necessity for employing a single native at such a school. We should have white lads there. Persons interested in the matter tell me that sixty white boys can do the work of the 80 natives. The Minister can pay them each £4 10s. a month, and then the expenditure will not work out much more than what he pays the natives. He pays £3,000 per annum to the natives, and the lads will get £3,240. The only important expenditure that the change will bring about will be housing for the lads. But if we employ them there, then we can tell them that they must come to do the work there for three years at that wage, and then they can go out as foremen on a farm. Sixty will then go through the school every three years. The farmer’s son goes there to-day, and he is confirmed in the idea that there have to be natives on a farm, yet if we have white boys there we shall be training them in agriculture and weaning the students from the idea that natives are a necessity on a farm. We kill two birds with one stone. It will not cost the State much more, and we are at the same time training independent farmers and farm managers. Then there is another point I wish to refer to. It is that there ought to be better dovetailing and co-ordination in connection with the respective agricultural science institutions that we have. We have farm schools, agricultural schools, agricultural colleges and faculties for agriculture at the universities. They exist also in the Free State, and they are all working in opposition. I would therefore suggest to the Minister to have a conference of all the people that are concerned in these four kinds of schools in order to arrange that agricultural education in the Union shall be dealt with as a whole.

The hon. member who has just spoken has raised a question about the labour to be employed at agricultural schools. I am entirely in favour of employing as many white men as we can in any walk of life; but I would like to know how the Minister of Agriculture reconciles certain circulars of his to the agricultural schools, with the statements made by his leader outside this House, at the meeting of the Afrikander National Bond, and during the elections at Stellenbosch, when it was stated that the coloured people and the white people of South Africa were going to be treated on an equal footing, and that discrimination was only going to be made against natives. Notwithstanding that, the Minister of Agriculture issued a circular on the 3rd September, 1924, to the heads of the Agricultural Divisions and Schools of Agriculture stating that the question should be carefully considered and reported upon of the possibility of replacing native and coloured labour by white labour as far as possible. Later on, on the 21st November, a further circular was issued to the same officials, asking them to submit a statement showing the relative cost if white labour were substituted for native or coloured labour at the agricultural schools, etc. The information was stated to be required urgently, as it was desired for the current financial year. I do not wish the other side to say, as they have repeatedly done, that hon. members on this side do not care about the white unemployed, but I think it is about time this duplicity was exposed. On the one hand you have the coloured people being told that there is to be no differentiation between them and the whites, and on the other hand you have the Minister calling for information with regard to the possibility of replacing coloured by white labour. It is misleading to the country and to the coloured people.

What do you say about it?

I want straight dealing. I am for employing white men wherever we can; but do not let us tell the coloured people that they are going to be treated on the same basis as the white people, and then act in this way. The other side is very fond of saying “What are your views?”; but I am dealing with the specific action of the Minister, which contradicts the statements of the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister stated the other day that “slimness will never pay in dealing with an ignorant people.” Not only so but the ruling races of this country should not use slimness and a certain amount of duplicity especially in regard to the non-European people we are trying to govern. I want the Minister to tell us the result of that enquiry, and to state categorically whether it is definitely the policy of the Government to displace coloured men and to employ white men wherever they possibly can, and that their protestations that they intend to treat the coloured employees of the State on the same footing as the white are not to be taken seriously. Then I wish to draw attention to another matter; but not by way of adverse criticism. I am glad to see that there has been a re-allocation of the sheep experts, or rather, the areas coming under the supervision of those men, but the areas are too large even now, although they have been much more conveniently arranged, with headquarters in more accessible parts of the country. But, in regard to the development of wool growing in this country, there is still room for a considerably larger number of sheep experts. The western province district, on the 1st July last, was a colossal area. The proposed allocation is much more sensible, but even now I think it is too large. The headquarters have been removed from Robertson to Worcester, which I think is a better centre for the reorganized area, but the district comprised in the western province is a huge country for one man to attempt to cover, if his services are to be available as often as desired to give instruction in classification and wool-sorting. The same applies to the Eastern Province district. I understand that the full staff is 12, with one head to supervise. I think the Minister should consider, before next year’s estimates come on, the possibility of increasing the expert staff of the Wool Division by at least another six; but there is another way of meeting the requirements of the farmers, and that is to make some use of the young men who have gone to Australia and elsewhere to make a special study of sheep and wool. There are some of them in the country, and I suggest that the official sheep experts be available, on call, once for certain. I believe a charge is made now for any subsequent visit, and applications for the services of experts are to be in by 30th June, yearly, so that there may be time to arrange an itinerary and organize their work better. But is there no means of using the trained men in the country by enabling them to set up on their own account as wool and sheep classifiers? They might receive a retainer from the State to do certain work for the Government which would help to enable these men to set up as advisers to the wool growers of the country.

I just want to bring a few things to the notice of the Minister. We spend £178,000 on agricultural schools and I do not think the farmers get sufficient value for it. I think that it is very necessary for the Minister to send out more people to give lectures, etc., because our farmers find it rather difficult to go to the agricultural schools to study. In my opinion it is no use establishing more agricultural schools. It is easier to send the people to us than to take the farmers to the agricultural schools. Some do not even have the money for the train fare to go there and then they have to pay board and lodging as well. But the people that are sent to give lectures must not only come to one place such as, for instance, Riversdale. The farmers must be given the opportunity to take the people out to their farms and to there get information from them, e.g., whether the ground is suited for a certain kind of apple that they wish to plant. We have found that apples which grow well in the western province do not answer with us. The trees there get a kind of disease and we have already written about it to the agricultural schools. The people do not however see the diseases on the spot and therefore it is very difficult for them to judge about the matter. If the lecturers could go to the farms they could tell us what kind of fertilizer to use and how we should treat the trees. The Minister has bought 500 morgen at Riversdale for an agricultural school. I should prefer him to spend the money in the direction I have indicated. Then there are the wool farmers. I think more should be done to teach the people how to use the shearings and it would be a good thing if the expert could visit the farms at shearing time.

I wish to call attention to sub-section (j) purchase of stock—£6,700 which is £5,600 more than last year. No one would wish to see this sum diminished in any way, for the purchase of valuable stud stock is of great educational value, but it rather conflicts with the action of the department in holding a sale of a very valuable herd in the Cape Province belonging to the Grootfontein agricultural college. I would like to know what stock has been purchased and the reason of the department disposing of a valuable stock of shorthorns. The sale of that herd would imply that the Government was thus intimating to the students that it was time they gave up breeding short-horns. As a member of the Shorthorn Association said, “The sale was a slap in the face to all short-horn breeders in South Africa.”

Undoubtedly the cost of our agricultural schools to-day is very high, and even the agricultural department admits it. I read in the report for 1922-’23—

I think that the hon. Minister must give his serious attention to it that we get better results than our figures indicate. In the report we find that there are only 198 permanent students in the four agricultural schools together. Then there are 400 more who take various short courses, and yet a further 1,000 people who are reached by the short courses of the agricultural schools. We feel that the number of students is far too small for the money that is spent. What are the reasons? I think I can speak with a certain amount of practical experience, because I also went to one of the agricultural schools. When the agricultural schools were established all the heads were imported people, not a single South African was a lecturer, and the students immediately felt that although the people could give them a certain amount of theoretic knowledge the lecturer did not have an adequate knowledge of the country and could not give full value for the money. That difficulty is removed to-day and the lecturers are practically all South African, but the great difficulty is that 50 per cent. of the students at the agricultural schools are not sons of farmers, they are sons of other people. At Elsenburg there were nine farmers’ sons to six others; Grootfontein, 15 farmers’ sons to 14 others; Cedara, seven to seven; Potchefstroom, 12 farmers’ sons to nine others; Glen (the best), 11 farmers’ sons to two others. What is the reason of this? This, that sons of non-farmers, after their matric or what not, go to the agricultural schools to follow the courses together with the farmers’ sons. Those boys know nothing about farming. They barely know the difference between an apple and a pear tree and a mule and a horse. The farmers’ sons must go parallel with those boys step by step. They become discouraged and leave after three months. I wish to ask whether the Minister cannot make an alteration in this. If the farmers’ sons are separated then they can in the shortest possible time acquire the most knowledge. I remember reading the opinion of the late Minister (Mr. F. S. Malan) that our agricultural schools must not try to make a farmer of a non-farmer but to make a better farmer of a farmer. If we keep that good motto before our eyes then we shall do right. I hope that the hon. Minister will enquire why the agricultural schools are not popular. It is a great mistake, I think, for us not to have any primary agricultural education in this country. No scientific agricultural education is given to the child in standard three or four, a matter in which the child takes an interest and which increases his knowledge of farming in a scientific way and gives him keenness to prosecute his studies in that direction. I think that the hint which has been given to the Minister to call a conference to discuss in what way primary agricultural education can be advanced is worth following up. I hope that the hon. Minister will not adopt the hint of the hon. member for Oudtshoorn (Mr. le Roux), who is otherwise a well-educated farmer and an authority on certain things, because in this instance his advice is, I think, wrong. The country does not so much require experts of a higher status. Those people are to a certain extent necessary as lecturers at the agricultural schools and for the investigation of scientific agricultural problems, but the number is limited and the men with diplomas are, with exceptions, not meant to be farmers. We must give more attention to primary agricultural education and not completely leave the progressive farmers out of account. I think that we should not extend the faculties at the universities. One will be enough, but we already have two or three universities with one. I admit that the whole subject of agricultural education is very difficult, and I think that the hon. Minister should appoint a commission to go thoroughly into the matter. I know the objection to commissions, but such a commission need not be so large, need not take much time, and will not cost much. Otherwise the hon. Minister could appoint a commission from his own department. He has men who are quite competent to tackle the matter and go round the country getting evidence and going minutely into details. The hon. member for Kroonstad (Mr. Werth) has expressed the desirability to only use whites for the farm works at the agricultural schools. I think that a good principle, but practice has shown that the agricultural students look down with a certain contempt on the lads who do that work. I think this is also a matter of importance and worth investigation.

I would like to say a word in support of the hon. member for Cape Town (Hanover Streeet) (Mr. Alexander) in connection with women’s agricultural education. All the hon. gentleman has said in connection with the school run by Miss Miller near Harrismith, in the Free State, for the purpose of giving education to women is perfectly correct. I have always held that the time had come when you must meet the various requests to place agricultural educational facilities within the reach of women who want to go on the land. It is a very difficult thing to get this House to vote the necessary money to establish another agricultural college for women. The work being done by Miss Miller and her fully qualified staff is of an admirable character, and if the Minister will enquire in his department, he will find the secretary of agriculture went into the matter and wrote a memorandum in which there was a recommendation that if the Government was not prepared to embark on a course of establishing women’s agricultural colleges it might be doing a good work by subsidizing Miss Miller’s college and allow them to take more pupils and increase the basis of their operations. It is very requisite at the present time, when the finances of the country, under the able administration of my hon. friend, are expanding, that if we are not prepared to establish an agricultural school for women we should subsidize a school of this sort. After the interesting speech of the hon. member for Albert (Mr. Steytler) in which he deprecated anybody, but the sons of farmers, going to agricultural colleges, I would say that whenever the sons of people who are not farmers are sent to agricultural colleges it would be a good thing if a period of three or six months was spent on a farm where they would get a certain amount of practical instruction. If he enquires fully into the matter, he will find some of the most brilliant and distinguished students in agricultural colleges have been the sons of people who were not farmers themselves. If the hon. member would look through records of Grootfontein he will find the most brilliant student was a boy who knew nothing about farming until he came to that institution. During his holidays he went and worked wherever he could to improve his knowledge. That is the sort of man who will get on in this country. If my friend will go and preach the doctrine he has preached here among the farmers of the country it might be better. The most depressing thing in connection with the Glen Agricultural College is the small number of sons of Free State farmers who are taking advantage of that institution. It is improving, I know, but there was a considerable period of time when there was nothing more depressing that, on making an enquiry at Glen, to find so few sons of farmers were students. Many of the farmers of the Free State did not think it worth while to send their sons there, but they go to agricultural colleges in other parts of the Union. I have always maintained that these colleges do a great deal of good, and the Minister will find, if he does anything in that direction, he will have the cordial support of the House. I ask the Minister, before this vote is taken, to give the committee some information with regard to what is going on between the agricultural faculty of the university of Stellenbosch and the agricultural school at Elsenburg, and whether steps have been taken or proposals made with regard to the amalgamation of these two institutions. I think it is only fair that the Minister should take the earliest opportunity of informing the committee whether any steps in that direction have been taken. I have only heard rumours. The Minister knows that I appointed a few years ago a commission to go into the whole question of our agricultural school and our agricultural university education, for the purpose of co-ordinating that education as far as possible and preventing overlapping. The Minister might, perhaps, be able to tell us whether a great deal of advantage is being taken of the facilities that the Railway Department granted. When my hon. friend (Mr. Jagger) was Minister of Railways, I went to a great deal of discussion with him and the Railway Board for the purpose of facilitating the travelling about, not alone of our officials in the Agricultural Department, and our agricultural schools, but also the agricultural professors of the universities and with a view to allowing that to be done without expense that the Agricultural Department could not meet, my hon. friend and the Railway Board agreed that whenever any of those people were going to attend meetings of farmers they should get facilities over the railways at one-sixth the ordinary rate. Perhaps the Minister will be able to tell me whether very great advantage is being taken of that concession. Perhaps my hon. friend, when he replies, will make some statement about the experimental stations. I have always held that you can have agricultural schools all over the country, but in a country like this, with its great physical differences, one of the best things, now that you have a Department of Extension, is that you should have throughout the length and breadth of this country as many experimental plots as possible, which farmers should place at the disposal of the department and for the working of which they should supply the necessary labour and animals. Then the Department of Extension should give every possible assistance. [Time expired.]

We have three kinds of agricultural education. We have the agricultural schools of the Agricultural Department, the industrial schools where agricultural teaching is given, and where it is going to become an important part of the education, and we have the agricultural teaching at the ordinary lower schools in connection with ordinary education. The great question is where we are going to get the teachers from to-day for all these schemes of agricultural education. As to higher agricultural education I can understand that we should have competent men who have been educated overseas, but where are the teachers to come from for the ordinary agricultural schools which have not been taken over by the Union Department of Education, and for the agricultural education at the lower schools? I should just like to ask the hon. Minister whether the agricultural schools of his department could not be of more use for training teachers in agriculture. Teachers, e.g., who would be required for the industrial schools. In Potchefstroom we have a normal school and also an agricultural school. The question is whether the agricultural school cannot be made more useful for the ordinary teachers who subsequently go to the country-side, and who have not been trained at the normal school? Cannot the institution at Potchefstroom help our normal college students more to get a grip of agriculture? It would be the ideal condition of things if we could get various kinds of agricultural schools and of agricultural schools where agricultural education is given. All the schools under the Agricultural Department should come under the Educational Department of the Union. It seems to me that there is now too much wasting of energy and that better co-operation should be brought about. It is more a matter of education than of agriculture, but yet I want to bring it to the notice of the Minister. The work of our agricultural schools that I have seen was for the most part unsatisfactory. In many cases that I know of in my constituency young fellows have gone to the agricultural school, but when they have got to the farm they have been a complete failure. We must have more interrelation between the lower schools, industrial schools, and agricultural schools. We must draw our children for the agricultural schools from the lower and industrial schools, and there, in the first place, enquire whether they are suitable for and have a bent for agriculture. If they give indications of that, then send them, if necessary with bursaries, to receive high agricultural education to create in this way not only experts, but also teachers for the industrial schools where agricultural education is given. I am speaking more from the educational standpoint, and agree with what the hon. member for Kroonstad has said, that it would be a good thing to convene a conference to see in what way co-operation can best be attained.

I want to draw the attention of the House and the Minister to a matter briefly touched upon by the right hon. member for Standerton. The Minister will remember receiving a deputation some weeks ago as to experimental plots on the border, preferably in the Komgha district. I hope he will bear in mind that matter and have sympathy with the deputation’s request.

I just want to say to the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Sir Thomas Smartt) that he wrongly understood the hon. member for Waterberg (Mr. van Niekerk). It was not his intention that non-farmers should be kept out of the agricultural schools. He also thinks that lads should first have a little farming experience before they go to the agricultural schools, because otherwise they keep the rest back. I just want to say in connection with Glen that it is true that it was not formerly supported by the farmers as it should have been, but it is the policy of the hon. member that was responsible for that. We warned him against it at the time. At that time Glen was used for returned soldiers, and we warned him against it every time we had an opportunity. That was the cause why the farmers would not support it, and even to-day we find that there are still unilingual officials mere, although the free State is exclusively Dutch-speaking. During the administration of the hon. member for Fort Beaufort Glen received very little support, and even last year there were still only 24 students. To-day it is crowded. If the hon. member for Fort Beau-fort had followed the same good policy as has been followed by the present Minister of Agriculture then Glen would already have been full long since. But that is not the reason why I got up to take part in the discussion. I should like to tell the Minister of Agriculture that if this is the way of carrying out what has been suggested in the departmental report then the Free State will not be thankful to him for it, and I fear that he will not then make a success of the agricultural schools, which of course he very much wants to do. On page 105 of the report we read that each agricultural school should chiefly apply itself to the kind of farming that is carried on in its surroundings. To Glen is assigned dairy farming, pig farming and poultry breeding. Pig farming is evenly shared between Natal and Glen. In the Free State, possibly only in the surroundings of Westminster, is anything being done, but in the other portion of Westminster practically nothing is done in that direction. In the surroundings of Bloemfontein there is an egg circle, and close to Senekal something is also being done in the way of poultry breeding. Dairy farming is in vogue around the large towns, but in the Free State we find little of it. Why then are those kinds of farming assigned to Glen, of which there is only a little done in the Free State? We do not apply ourselves to them. We produce more mealies than the rest of the Union, and sheep farming is one of the chief portions of farming in the Free State. We are however, deprived of the privilege of studying these objects at the agricultural school at Glen. Those who want to be trained in sheep farming will have to go to Grootfontein. If we take a sheep from the neighbourhood of Grootfontein it certainly will not answer in the northern portion of the Free State. If our sons are, therefore, educated at Grootfontein they will not be able to use the knowledge that they acquire there in the Free State in practice. It is certainly the case that one cannot farm in the same way at Grootfontein as in the Free State. I am sorry for the unfortunate boys who will have to do so. I hope that the Minister of Agriculture is not yet enamoured of this new scheme and that he will not put it into effect. The policy that he has hitherto followed is good, let him keep on with it, but if he continues with this scheme then the agricultural schools will again become empty.

It is time that I replied, because many points have already been mentioned and the agricultural schools criticized a good deal. Members have argued that we get no value for the money that is spent on them. We must, however, look at the matter in the proper light. It seems that hon. members are under the impression that the agricultural schools are only intended solely and exclusively to train children. The other work that is also done there is not taken into consideration. I will just mention a few cases in order to show what is being done in this connection. I shall first take the school at Potchefstroom. Besides the number of children that are there 122 meetings were held last year which were attended by 2,720 people. There were 119 demonstration meetings, 500 visits to farms were made, and many agricultural shows were attended. Grootfontein held 174 demonstrations which were attended by 9,900 people, 52 shows were attended, and more than 500 farms visited. Elsenberg had 117 demonstrations which were attended by 3,963 people, 54 shows were attended, and 375 farms visited. But that is not all. Requests are constantly made to us by the other departments of State to investigate certain matters and to give advice. The Minister of Lands, e.g., asked for help in connection with the land settlements. The same applies to the Minister of Labour, who wanted necessary information in connection with the unemployment settlement. We must not, therefore, only regard the matter from the point of view of the pupils there. The institutions do not only do that but also make investigations into special diseases and agricultural conditions. In Natal, e.g., the Cedara institution is making an investigation into the pest which destroys the wattle and eucalyptus trees. I just wish to tell the hon. member for Umvoti (Mr. Deane), who mentioned the matter, that the research work is being done but that they have not yet succeeded and is hot yet complete. The hon. member knows how many years we have already been engaged in preventing scab and he cannot expect that we should simply immediately be able to exterminate that plague. I hope, however, that we will attain the best results and that we shall discover the necessary remedies to fight the plague in a systematic way. I have officials who are giving their special attention to that. It has been mentioned that we have various departments, various agricultural schools and faculties for agriculture at the universities and that there is no co-ordination between them. We have not yet been a year in office and it cannot be expected that we can put matters in order by a stroke of the pen, especially where the various institutions have already for years been drifting apart. The Minister of Education stated in the House that he would discuss industrial and agricultural education with me. We have arranged to give our attention to it after the session and to discuss the matter with the head of departments, the heads of the agricultural schools, and the representatives of the various educational heads. We will try to so arrange the system that the work of the various institutions will not overlap. Various views that have been expressed in this connection are replied to in this way. We hope to find a solution of this matter. The hon. member for Fort Beaufort has asked me to make a statement as to what is going on between the University of Stellenbosch and the Elsenberg agricultural school. I am trying to see whether a union cannot be brought about. He has also worked in that direction, but we have not yet come to a satisfactory solution of the matter. The conference or discussion that I have just mentioned will also discuss this matter, and I hope that we shall get so far as to be able to unite these institutions. The costs are very great to have a faculty of agriculture at Stellenbosch and also an agricultural school and experimental farm only a few miles off. We shall obtain better results if we work in the direction I have suggested. I agree that we have too many agricultural colleges and that we should have more experimental farms but the present Government found the position as it is and we cannot merely by a stroke of the pen close Elsenberg, Glen and Potchefstroom agricultural schools. The hundreds of thousands spent there would then be thrown away. We must therefore take the circumstances into consideration and consider what will be best in the circumstances. An hon. member has said that he is sorry that there are two agricultural faculties. I agree with him but we found it so and we must make the best of things. The hon. member for Kroonstad (Mr. Werth) and the hon. member for Frankfort (Mr. J. Brand Wessels) have spoken very strongly in connection with the position in the Free State. The hon. member for Kroonstad has quoted figures to show what taxation is paid by the farmers of the Free State and what is produced there. Let me say at once that the Free State has a large number of sheep. There are over 7,000,000 sheep and much attention is given to crops, but if hon. members will look at the estimates they will see that a station is being established to make experiments in connection with mealie growing. Although we produce a great deal of maize I think that our production per morgen is very small, and that it is necessary to make experiments to ascertain where we are wrong, whether we are ploughing badly or whether the seed and the fertilizing is not adequate. The second matter mentioned by the hon. member for Kroonstad is that boys cannot be trained in sheep farming. I know this is so and steps are already being taken to give proper opportunities at Glen also to give training in that direction. The hon. member naturally knows that formerly there was an insufficiency of staff to give such instruction. That is the reason why there was trouble, and I am very glad that Glen in that respect has now made progress. The institution was in the past practically empty but some months ago I went there and the head told me then that the lecturers had to give up their rooms to accommodate all the new students. There were then 80 pupils and I am very glad that the farmers are making use of the institution to obtain a proper agricultural training. The Prime Minister is setting us an example there because I personally saw his sons at work there. I was pleased at it because it will be an example to the children who possibly dislike manual labour. The general complaint has also been expressed that these schools should be further developed. I would just like to point out that we have a big school at Elsenberg but I find that the inhabitants of the Cape Province do not make enough use of it. At the moment there is still room for 30 students. Why is this so? The hon. member for Frankfort has shown what the difficulty in the Free State was. Elsenberg has a very good staff. The head is a very good man. He is beloved wherever he goes to give lectures and I am very sorry that the farmers do not make more use of it and that they do not see that it is just as full as the other institutions. We all feel that considerable money is paid for the schools but if we take into consideration all the work done by the schools over and above and outside the education of the children as I have here shown then we shall agree that the money is not wasted. There is room for improvement but I cannot do everything at the same time. The officials do their best to have everything arranged as well as possible. I have already said previously that a little more should be sown and planted at the agricultural schools. It is wrong that a place like Potchefstroom should buy apples and flour for the students. The expenditure on food should be diminished, and I will see to it that the production is increased in this respect. I should now like to answer the various questions put by members on different points. The hon. member for Frankfort has mentioned the fact that there are still unilingual lecturers. That is a difficulty I found when I took over the department. There are some schools where we have unilingual lecturers who only know English. This causes difficulties because many Afrikanders prefer to be instructed in their own language. These are however the existing conditions and I can only say that I do everything in my power to improve them as much as possible. At Glen most of the lectures are given in Afrikaans. I am trying to introduce this in other schools as well. The difficulty is where we have these unilingual officials we cannot get rid of them. It will therefore be some time before they are all bilingual, but I shall do my best to put this matter right as far as possible. I am, however, glad to be able to say that the lecturers understand that it is necessary for them to know both languages, and before many years are past the unilingual will probably be able to give their lectures properly in both official languages. I can also tell the hon. member that it is my intention that the schools should apply themselves more and more to the kinds of farming that are carried on by the people in the neighbourhood of the school. I shall do as much as possible to bring this about and hope that it will not be necessary for the hon. member again to make this complaint next year. The hon. member for Potchefstroom (the Rev. Mr. Fick) has pleaded here for a greater use of the agricultural schools for the training of teachers for the country side. I am prepared to agree with him that it is unfortunately the case that most of our lower schools have not got teachers with the necessary agricultural training. I am now making arrangements for a number of them who want to go to Potchefstroom for training. We cannot however accept too many, there is not enough room and we cannot now erect more buildings. I have already received a deputation from Potchefstroom and I told them that measures would be taken for the training of teachers there. Then the hon. member also said that the agricultural schools should come under the Union education department. Commissions have sat on this matter in the past but I also think that it does not come under the Minister of Education. If we put it under the Minister of Education I do not see how the whole matter will work. It does not at all come within his department. The hon. member for Fort Beaufort is not in his place and I can therefore skip his question. The hon. member for Waterberg (Mr. van Niekerk) has referred to the position of people who already have a knowledge of agriculture, and who then enter the agricultural school in company with people from the villages who know nothing about it. He wants us to separate the two classes of pupils from each other. I don’t know where we will land if we draw such dividing lines. It is not practical and therefore I cannot take the hint. He has also mentioned the poor lads who should go to the agricultural schools. I am inclined to admit them there if the House will give the money for bursaries but we have here heard every member say that we are spending too much money. Must we then go further? I should like to do so, and we are doing so to a certain extent, e.g., in Rustenburg. But there is only room for 45 to 50 and there are, of course, hundreds who desire to make use of such opportunities. Some of them will come out disappointed. The hon. member for Queenstown (Mr. Moffat) has spoken about the money on the estimates for the purchase of cattle. I want to tell him that certain stock was sold last year. The money goes into the consolidated revenue and we must obtain money for the purchase of other stock in their place. We are also going to buy sheep for Grootfontein. Some will also of course go to Glen. We are also buying cattle and the hon. member asks me why shorthorn cattle are sold. It is always being said that I do things without consulting my officials. I have here a telegram from the responsible people at Cedara that the experiment there with shorthorns for dairy purposes cannot be made a success and that the cattle must be sold. I took the advice and now that is wrong too. If I had not taken it members would have blamed me for not wanting to take the advice of my officials. My intention is to divide up cattle farming as follows among the various agricultural schools: Elsenberg—Frieslands and Jerseys; Grootfontein—Frieslands; Glen—Frieslands and Afrikanders; Potchefstroom—Frieslands. Afrikanders and Sussex; Cedara—Ayrshires and Aberdeen Angus. The Herefords Shorthorns and, later on, also the Aberdeen Angus will be sold. The reason for that is that we cannot keep on all these cattle, it costs a great deal. We find that there are enough farmers who have, e.g,. shorthorns, so that the other farmers can get their pedigree bulls there if they want them. We will, consequently, no longer keep this stock at the school. The hon. member for Riversdale (Mr. Badenhorst) said that we should have less agricultural schools and should send out more people to give lectures. Let me tell the hon. member that if they would welcome an official in his district such an official will be sent to them with the greatest pleasure.

Yes, but they only stop a day.

If the hon. member wants the department to employ officials in order that they may stay a few days with farmers on their farms, then we shall have to have very many. There are officials that we use to give as many lectures as possible. The agricultural schools also do this, but it is impossible to send people to remain so long on the farms. It will cause expenditure that we are not at the moment able to bear. If the hon. member wants advice about the planting of apple trees then he must apply to the special horticultural division and the officials of that division will give him all the information on the spot. The hon. member for Albany (Mr. Struben) has come here and read a few circulars about the replacement of native labour by white labour. The hon. member says that coloured labour is also being replaced. He knows quite well what the policy of the present Government is in this connection, namely, to reserve certain fields of work for the natives and others for whites. We are however, doing this to use the whites as much as possible, and for this reason, I sent out the circular about the replacement of the coloured and native labour by white labour. We feel that the coloured people must get certain work, and we put these questions simply to find out if it would be possible to use coloured labour in certain places and white labour exclusively at other places. As regards native labour, it will be replaced by white labour if the expense is not too great. The hon. member for Kroonstad has mentioned a number of other matters which I have already answered. The hon. member for Caledon (Mr. Krige) has stated that the Elsenberg agricultural school is not suited to the training of grain and wool farmers. I will only say that other members have said that we already have too many agricultural schools. If the hon. member, however, looks at the estimates, he will see that £1,500 is being voted for enquiry into the production of wheat. It will, of course, go in part to the Cape Province. I have still to be advised by my experts as to where such a station should be established. One will naturally have to be in Malmesbury or here in the southern portions. I, therefore, intend to have the necessary enquiry made, so that it will not be necessary for us to import so much wheat. With reference to the wool farmer, I may say that we have the necessary wool experts. They can give advice to the people if the farmers will only organize. I am, however, going to give all my attention to that matter. The hon. member has also said that the experts of Stellenbosch and Elsenburg must be sent out more to the districts that he mentions. If the farmers of those districts apply for it then those experts will go there. There is £800 down on the estimates for the travelling expenses of such people. We have, therefore, already made provision for what the hon. member wishes, and I can say that the experts will be only too pleased to go about amongst the farmers. Further the hon. member has said that lads here from the southern portions cannot find room at the Grootfontein agricultural school to be trained. There is naturally a certain time when the agricultural school is very full, but at other times there is more room, and I can assure the hon. member that requests from those portions will be carefully considered so that they, in turn, can inform the other farmers what they have learnt there.

I am speaking about the short courses, because the farmers are anxious to attend them. They must, however, be organized before they can be considered.

It is the duty of the farmers to organize and it is very unfortunate that the farmers are not organized. I shall be very glad if the hon. member for Caledon will use his influence to induce the farmers concerned to organize. The hon. member for Cape Town (Hanover Street) (Mr. Alexander) has talked about a training school for women so that they can also learn agriculture. I will at once admit that the department has no such institution. The question, however, arises whether there is actually a demand for that. I know that there are two schools—one in the district of Ermelo, and the other in the district of Harrismith. The lady at Harrismith came to see me with reference to certain grants. The difficulty is that her institution is entirely unilingual, and we feel that the children of the Free State will be practically deprived of the privilege of going there. I have, however, promised to go there myself, or to send an official of my department there to make a report on the institution, so that I can see what should be done. I am convinced that something must be done. At Stellenbosch, however, the women can take a degree, and there are already two graduates. I think that I have now answered all the questions.

The hon. member for Waterberg (Mr. van Niekerk) has asked if we cannot divide the agricultural students into various groups and he has complained about the small number of students. I think that at least as regards Grootfontein the demand is always much larger than the number of students that can be taken for the two or three years’ course. The former principal at Grootfontein told me that when a boy has once worked for two or three years on a farm before he takes the course he then learns just as much in three months as other boys in a year, and as there is not room to take in all the students who apply I think that it will be a good thing to make the stipulation that before a boy is taken in he shall first work for one or two years on a farm. If there was sufficient accommodation I would not suggest such a thing, but because there are more applications than there are vacancies I suggest to make that condition so that the boys who go to the agricultural school will know how to span in a horse and an ox, how to handle a plough, etc. I say that the students who apply cannot all be accepted. Last year I was told that 60 boys were given notice to come to Grootfontein, but after enquiry only 18 were taken on because there was no more room. I know of a man who gave up a good appointment when he was called up, because he intended to take the agricultural course, but when he arrived at Grootfontein he was not taken on after the examination and after the enquiry. He had to go home and look for work again. I think that is an unreasonable thing. If those people are called up then they should know that it is only to undergo a test. They should not be caused the expense unless they know that they might possibly not be taken on. As for classes for girls, I should like to say a few words. The hon. Minister always talks so glibly about exterminating scab and locust, but I do not think he can help us to make boys from girls. Therefore I think it is a fair question to also make provision for girls. Many girls marry farmers and live on farms, and it is of great importance that they should have some knowledge of farming, let alone the importance of such knowledge for those who themselves want to start farming. It is of great importance that they should know something about dairy farming, horticulture, flower growing, poultry, pig farming, etc. If they have knowledge of that they will take much more interest in the farm life and be happy on the farm. They will then make useful housewives on such a farm. I hope that the hon. Minister will see his way to have one of the existing schools given to girls. Then the hon. Minister said they had sold stock and wanted to use the money to buy more stock, great and small. I should like to know what kind of sheep is the hon. Minister going to buy?

Wool sheep.

Yes, of course, what else can he buy; but to those who farm with sheep it is of great importance what kind of sheep is bought. It is not quite the same thing. Under wool sheep you find Rambouillet sheep, Waganella and Tasmanian sheep, and other kinds. Only last year I put a letter inside a bale of wool addressed to the manufacturer about my wool. The wool was sold here in January, and I got an answer from Bradford dated 10th September. He said the letter was found last night in the bale. I asked the factory to send me some details about the wool. The manufacturer wrote that he attached great importance to South Africa and to South African wool and that last year he had used about 36,000 bales of South African wool. He wrote that if I required new blood in my flock I need not go to look for it abroad; that we had in South Africa just as good sheep as elsewhere. The idea always seems to exist that we must import sheep from foreign parts, and often people are sent abroad, e.g., to Australia, to go and buy sheep there. Sheep are bought there at high prices and when they arrive here they appear to be no better than our own sheep. I would, therefore, just like to advise the Minister to be careful in buying sheep and not spend unnecessary money for sheep from other countries.

I should like to know if it is not possible to make provision in connection with the investigation of the diseases of small stock. Griqualand West and the Midlands are large sheep districts and there are many diseases amongst the small stock. The farmers feel that it is necessary to investigate the diseases of small stock and see what can be done. Another point I wish to mention is that at Grootfontein only a limited number of students can be taught, and the farmers of the Eastern Province feel that provision should be made to accommodate more students. I think the course at Grootfontein is the best in the country and it is very desirable as regards the permanent students and the short course to make more room so that more students can take advantage of those courses.

I want to refer to page 141 under the summary, citrus and tobacco experiments. I would like the Minister to explain what these tobacco experiments are, and also what progress is being made in regard to the checking of wild-fire. South African growers have been alarmed about the spread of this disease and we would like to know what progress is being made in checking it. With regard to the Hartebeestpoort experiment station, it would be interesting to know what crops are being tested there. Does the Minister contemplate the small settlers growing tobacco there, or what other crops? With regard to the citrus, I would like to ask the Minister whether the scale, which is the greatest enemy of citrus, is being checked or otherwise, and whether any restriction is imposed on the export of oranges which are affected with scale. We know the appearance of the orange is detracted with this affection and one has great fear that if they are allowed to be exported to European markets, it is going to injure the industry.

I wish to ask for information under sub-section H.1. in regard to the bull depôt at Pietersburg. The other afternoon the Minister referred to that depôt in answer to a question by the hon. member for Bloemfontein (North) (Mr. Barlow), as to whether he was encouraging improved bulls in the country and asking him to make every effort to do so. In reply, the Minister referred to the bull depôt established at Pietersburg. It seems to me that he and his department took a good deal of kudos for having initiated that particular depôt. Well, I think that bull depôt is largely due to the initiative of, and the suggestion that came from, the breeding societies, and I think these societies deserve the credit for the depôt having been started. I think I am correct; because I was connected with the committee on the question. The Government at that time did not see their way to start selling cheap bulls to people in these areas, when the breeding society started this scheme. This has now been running for some little time, and I would like to ask the Minister the number of bulls he has sold up to date, because some strong complaints have been made by some of the Natal farmers, who, a year and a half ago, offered bulls for that depôt and still have them on hand. The department has not yet taken over the bulls from the farmers in Natal and other places for this depot and the farmers are naturally reluctant to keep the bulls on hand all this time. It does not seem to me that the department are taking up this matter in a very earnest and vigorous manner, and I would appeal to the Minister to see that something more is done to urge on the particular department connected with this bull scheme to see that these bulls are not only accepted, but sold as soon as possible to the farmers in the Pietersburg area and surrounding districts. It is like looking a gift horse in the mouth when, after making this generous offer, the Government does not take steps to accept the gifts that are being made. This delay is detrimental to the possibility of further bulls being given by the farmers. In connection with the bulls that have been sold, I should like the Minister to say whether, according to the arrangement made with the farmers who gave them the money, is being re invested in more bulls for distribution in the Northern Transvaal. I would also like to add my word of appeal to that made by the hon. member for Cape Town (Hanover Street) (Mr. Alexander) in reference to the Harrismith farm being conducted by Miss Miller. I feel that the old proverb stands good, that he who gives quickly gives twice, and it will be a calamity if the work which is being carried on there has to go under for lack of funds—a calamity not only to the Harrismith district, but to the country.

I could not follow the Minster very accurately, and I would take it as a favour if, when he gives his reply in English to the points I am raising. I think he said something about a sum of £1,500 having been set aside for experiments in wheat growing?

Yes.

If that is so, then where are these experiments to be conducted. In Natal, for instance, we believe there are considerable areas, particularly on the flats of the upper Mooi River reaches, where many believe wheat would grow if the right kind of wheat, after careful experimenting, can be decided upon, and this, of course, can only be settled by extensive experiments beyond the possibility of single farmers, and I have been asked by farming members of my constituency to put it to the Minister, that if he is contemplating taking steps having the object of increasing the wheat production of this country, he might take into consideration the laying out of experimental plots in Natal. This can be done in several ways. Either the Government can get from the land owners a sufficient block of land, where the farmers are willing to comply, and put a man in charge, and carry out experiments under their own management, or they could send round an expert to select the most suitable ground, and supply the owner with the best variety of wheat seed and advise as to how best to establish it. But whether done by the Government or the land owners under the instructions of the Government does not matter much, so long as we can have the lands thoroughly tested. Will the Minister say whether, for this purpose, a portion of the £1,500 can be allocated to Natal? Again, I could not quite follow the Minister in his remarks in regard to stock. I understand that he has arranged for certain breeds of stock to be kept in the various schools of agriculture throughout the country, and that beef and milk breeds are to be kept in Natal, but that these are not necessarily to be pedigreed animals. I do not take any special exception to that, but there is an important department in connection with these schools, viz., the pig-breeding department. No doubt this House will support the Government in their decision to impose a fairly stiff duty on imported bacon; but that can only be justified if this country gets seriously to work and not only supplies ample first-class bacon for its own requirements at a fair price, but sufficient and suitable for export. We have a large number of farmers who are breeding pigs to-day, but many are still doing so more or less without any special guidance or instruction. There are certain breeds of pigs which cross with specially good results and are particularly suitable for baconers, and for the export trade there are others again most unsuitable, but having bred the particular pig required, the next big thing is to see to its proper and economic feeding. The best pig in the world if it is not economically fed, will not supply an economic article of bacon, and that is essential for the establishment of a great industry. I should like to know whether anything is going to be done in this direction in the schools, particularly in Natal, where we are making great efforts in the bacon producing direction. There is another small matter; so small that apparently it has escaped the Minister’s notice. I notice that the matrons of nearly all the schools draw £180 a year; whereas the matron at the Cedara gets £179. I am rather curious to know why that 20s. is dropped in her case. Again we notice under every one of these various headings a small sum is set aside for co-operative experiments. The amounts are very small at the various agricultural colleges. That is a very interesting heading: On page 144: There is Cedara, £150; Potchefstroom, £180; Glen, £75. Will the Minister explain what the experiments are and how they are to be carried out? Then I would like to suggest that experiments should be continued and closely watched as to the economic stall feeding of bullocks. Within the last three weeks bullocks have been sold by auction in Natal for £20 each; the reason for this satisfactory price is two-fold, the animals were of the right type and in the right condition; when you get that you get near perfection. The production of beef of a high quality will yet be the foundation of a great export industry, bearing in mind that as much as 1s. a lb. is paid for lambs in New Zealand, f.o.b., and I would like to be informed what is being done at Cedara in regard to this particular matter. Unfortunately many farmers are wasting much money and much industry in following wrong methods of stock breeding and stock feeding. [Time expired.]

In connection with the Bathurst Experimental Station I want to draw the Minister’s attention to the fact that considerable development is proceeding along the coastal belt of the Eastern Province in regard to fruit cultivation. Unfortunately the Eastern Province generally is very badly served with regard to any research work, that being done at and from Grootfontein as far as the staff permits, but the growth of fruit cultivation and animal husbandry in the Eastern Province demands the provision of a separate research institution. The Bathurst station was established to experiment in wheat growing, but I believe that has not proved an unqualified success. The future of the coastal belt from East London to Port Elizabeth lies in fruit growing, and dairying. There is only one experimentalist at Bathurst, who owing to there being no staff quarters there, has to live some distance from the station and his work, and the equipment is poor. The Minister should consider the advisability of putting the station on a better basis and to a fuller use. It is splendidly situated and the soil is good. I have received a resolution from the “United Farmers” of the Albany, Bathurst and Peddie areas, urging that the experimental station at Bathurst be extended so as to include horticulture and dairying, but at the same time that wheat growing should not be neglected. After full discussions at various farmers’ meetings, they ask that a plant pathologist be stationed at Bathurst to carry out investigations with regard to Eastern Province plant diseases. If fly trouble in fruit could be stopped, there is no limit to the production especially of apples and pears in that area. Something more definite should be done to help the Eastern Province pioneers in the fruit industry. Fruit growers in the Eastern Province are more scattered than they are in the Western Province where Elsenburg can serve them better than Grootfontein, which is primarily for stock, can serve the Eastern Province fruit growers. Bathurst carries on good work on a meagre grant. It should have better equipment; it should be extended to deal with dairying and pig raising and extensive experiment in fodder crops and it should have a dip of its own, and the same facilities as to quarters and buildings should be given to the Bathurst as to other agricultural stations. The Minister omitted to reply to my previous question whether we have sufficient sheep and wool experts, and whether he will consider the appointment of more next year.

If hon. members will go to the agricultural department they would find a tremendous amount of literature on all the subjects that have been discussed this afternoon.

Are there any pamphlets on bores?

They spell it rather differently, but it may be the same thing. This information that the agricultural department has is at the disposal of anyone who writes for it, but I agree with the hon. member for Weenen (Maj. Richards) that, perhaps, that is hardly sufficient. Some effort should be made to bring it home to the farmers themselves. Everybody does not know it, and it is just as well if these experiments are worth carrying out that the information should be conveyed to the people concerned. Arising out of that I want to deal with an aspect of the question that may have escaped the notice of the Minister. He provides for standard dips for sheep and insists upon those standard dips being used. This year, with the aid of Parliament, he has passed a Bill designed to keep orchards clean by spraying. He has made a step in the direction of seeing a clean fruit industry in this country. It would be just as well if he carried out, in regard to that, what he has done in sheep dipping, that is, acquaint the farmers with the best forms of sprays for the various pests and carry out a series of investigations and experiments on the spot, showing them what to do. It is quite new to the country. In the past many farmers have gone on in the old happy-go-lucky way, and if the trees produced fruit, well and good, if not it was an act of God, and unfortunate. I congratulate the Minister on possessing in the department some valuable officers prepared to consider the question themselves and give of their experience, but the Minister has to see to it that there are sufficient officers of that calibre to go round to the farmers, whether invited or not, and disseminate their instruction and experience to these people. I advance that to the Minister in all deference and hope he will take notice of it. It is not unusual for a man to mix all sprays together in the hope that he will kill all the diseases, but sometimes it proves an unfortunate thing.

I should like the Minister to explain why there is such a difference in the cost of students at these various colleges. The costs are, at Cedara, £109; Elsenberg, £112; Glen, £149; Grootfontein, £76, and Potchefstroom, £55.

The last speaker asked me why there is such a big difference in the cost of maintenance at the various schools of agriculture. The difference in cost is attributable to the purchase of necessaries. In one year there is much required at one school and the next year at the other school, and that is the reason of the difference between the votes for the schools. The hon. member for Colesberg (Mr. G. A. Louw) has complained that there is sometimes, or usually, no room for all the students that offer. That is correct, we can, unfortunately, not find room for all the children. The hon. member thinks it desirable that before urban children are admitted to the agricultural schools they shall first be required to undergo three years’ practical experience on a farm. I agree with him that they should first have experience, but three years is a little too much. This shows that the hon. member is somewhat prejudiced against the urban child. The expert of my department tells me that one years’ practical experience is sufficient. I agree with that, and I hope that the hon. member will also admit it. The member has also asked about the purchase of sheep. The intention is to buy merino sheep for the agricultural school at Grootfontein, and to buy one hundred black-headed Persian sheep for Potchefstroom to mix the breed with others in order to obtain a good slaughter sheep. Most of the sheep will be bought in the Union on the advice of our experts. Perhaps it may be necessary to buy a ram and a few ewes abroad, but most of the sheep will be bought here. The hon. member has also spoken about an agricultural school for girls, but I have already discussed that with reference to a question from the hon. member for Cape Town (Hanover Street) (Mr. Alexander). The hon. member for Cradock (Mr. G. C. van Heerden) has said that we must make more tests in connection with stock diseases at Grootfontein. Investigation is already being made. We have a laboratory there. If it appears that more should be done in this connection then it will happen. I will bear the point in mind, and Dr. Theiler is also giving his attention to the matter. The hon. member for Umvoti (Mr. Deane) has asked what progress is being made in connection with the prevention of wild-fire in tobacco. The department is cleaning the tobacco of the farmers. It helps things very much if the seed is clean, because the wild-fire is thereby killed, and it is not then so bad. The tobacco expert goes round among the people to inform them what kind of tobacco to plant and how to treat it. The hon. member has further asked whether scaly oranges are exported. Such oranges are not permitted to be exported. We have officials to see to that. If we permitted scaly oranges to be exported we should soon lose our markets oversea. The hon. member has also asked whether investigation is being made whether the land situated below the Hartebeestpoort dam is suited for orange trees and for tobacco. We already have an expert there making the investigation. The hon. member for Queenstown (Mr. Moffat) has stated that I have been praising myself and the department about the bulls at the experimental farms near Pietersberg. The hon. member certainly misunderstood me, because I did no such thing. I never said any such thing. I said that bulls could be bought there. Many people had generously given up bulls to assist the department. The hon. member is one of those persons, and we are really grateful to them for it. The hon. member has asked how it is possible that some people had eighteen months since offered bulls and that the department has not yet taken advantage of the offer. I know that is so. Bulls were offered in Natal, but in view of East Coast fever there we could not hitherto make any use of the offer. Then I must add that the station is still a small one and not quite ready yet. There was not enough accommodation to place all the bulls. The station is now nearly completed, and next year there will be more room for the bulls. We very much appreciate the offer of the bulls. The best ones are given out to the farmers to improve their pedigree stock. The hon. member for Weenen (Maj. Richards) has spoken about examining the ground for growing wheat and of the establishment of an experimental station. The department will certainly make the necessary investigation by means of the experts, but the farmers there can make the test themselves. They have only to sow a little corn and make tests.

Would the Minister kindly give his reply in English as otherwise I shall have to wait for two weeks until I can see it in “Hansard”; and I am anxious to have the information now.

With reference to the question of the hon. member as to investigations in regard to wheat and the amount of £1,500 on the estimates, I may inform the hon. member that we are going to have certain experiments. I hope the farmers in the vicinity he has referred to will support these experiments and if we cannot have an experimental station just at this place—because we cannot have them all over—my department will be willing to send a man down there to give all information possible with reference to the growing of wheat in Natal. It is a question which we must tackle, because every year two million bags are coming into this country. Then he also asked me about cattle at the schools. I have explained that it is impossible for the department to have different kinds of cattle at the various schools. The hon. member has brought up the question of pig feeding. Let me inform him that we are carrying on feeding experiments at Cedara school, and very good results have been achieved. When I visited the school they showed me how the pigs were fed and the different foods. An officer will be appointed as soon as possible in order to give advice on these matters. It is very unsound that bacon should be sent here from other countries cheaper than we can produce it. Whatever we can do to help the farmers to get a better kind of pig, and to advise them as to the best methods of feeding, my department will be willing to do. Then the hon. member brought up the question as to why one of the matrons was getting £179, while another was getting £180. It is a question of salaries. The matron at Potchefstroom gets only £163. As the hon. member must know, the salaries are fixed by the Civil Service Commission, and I do not think we need go any further into that matter. The hon. member pointed out that, in Natal, cattle were sold at as high a price as £20, lately. It shows that if we have a good class of animal, we get good prices. On the estimates, provision is made for a director of animal husbandry, and he will have his staff to advise the farmers the best class of cattle to go in for.

Are you going on with the experiments in feeding at Cedara?

Yes, we will go on with them.

†*The hon. member for Albany (Mr. Struben) has asked me to appoint more wool experts. I must say that there are not many available. There are young people applying themselves to it and we hope that they will be available Experience has shown that it is not always so useful to send students abroad to study there. Some of the young people who have gone abroad failed in their examinations here. We are going to train the students here; it is not always necessary to send them oversea. The hon. member complains that the manager of the experimental station at Bathurst has to live in the town because there is no dwelling-house on the station. It is only a small station and we do not wish to build a house before we know whether we will continue the station there. There is no intention at present of removing it, but I am looking into the matter. Perhaps the station is not at the best place. The hon. member wishes that we should also enquire into stock diseases there.

I asked for the appointment of a botanist.

Such a man has already been appointed. The hon. member for Benoni (Mr. Madeley) has said that the department should make the result of its experiments more widely known. The agricultural journal at Bloemfontein has agreed to keep a few pages available for the department to make the results of tests known. This is a very good idea, and I hope that other agricultural journals will follow the example.

Can the Minister give us some explanation of the failure of the Turkish tobacco seed which was issued last year? The seed distributed by the Government proved, generally speaking, a failure, some of the unfortunate farmers, who planted only Government seed, having practically lost the whole of their season’s crop. The seed had been disinfected for wild-fire, and the disinfection seemed to destroy the vitality of the seed altogether. I should like to know what steps have been taken to prevent a recurrence of the failure and whether the tobacco farmers can confidently purchase Government seed this season.

Will the Minister please answer my question about the wool courses and the short courses?

Does the hon. member mean whether I will arrange to accept more students for the full courses?

Whether the Minister will make more provision to take more students.

It is a question of money. We already take as many students as we can. The short courses about great stock—

I am referring to sheep.

You mean more short courses.

No, more accommodation for students.

It is a question of money. The hon. member for Newlands (Mr. Stuttaford) has asked me about tobacco seed. I don’t remember receiving any complaints, nor do I know under what vote the hon. member is asking the question. I will, however, enquire into the cause of the failure of the seed. I will tell him the result, but up to the present I have not received any complaint.

I am certain if my friend enquires in his department, and especially at Elsenburg, he will find that what the hon. member for Newlands (Mr. Stuttaford) says is correct. Large numbers of farmers in the Western Province who go in for tobacco growing had tremendous difficulty in raising plants last season. In many cases they didn’t raise one-third of what they expected. Disinfection is very necessary because the Minister apparently has not heard of the serious losses caused from the spread of wild-fire. It had previously been known in the northern districts of the Transvaal, but it had never been known here. The seed had generally been treated with formalin of a certain strength; I do not know what the strength was, but I know the plants were a tremendous disappointment to many people. He will find his own tobacco experts realize the difficulty of killing the wild-fire germ in the seed and the necessity of disinfecting it with such a solution. In cases where tobacco has been growing at Paarl and Wellington, where there has been no wild-fire, farmers have been recommended to cover their blossoms with a view to securing seed of our own growth instead of importing it with the consequent danger, and with a view to getting a bigger yield of plants. I have reserved an amount of my own seed and have put mustard over them so that there will be no cross-fertilization. I do not say it is because we consider the seed we grow ourselves will be as good as the other seed, but my hon. friend must know there has been an amount of damage done in the Western Province in connection with the spread of wild-fire. I believe good information has been given by the officers. We miss the services of Mr. Cock and Mr. Stella, who was really the father of Turkish tobacco in South Africa. I know the Minister will do all that he can to assist the farmer in South Africa.

No complaints have reached me. I have made enquiries and the department also does not remember any complaints having come in. I shall however make the necessary enquiry because I do not want the farmers to suffer damage. I will make enquiries and then tell the hon. member personally the result.

The difficulty is to know what strength of disinfectant to use without killing the germination of seed.

I thank the Minister for telling us he will give us information regarding it, but I am surprised he has not heard of it because we have suffered from it. We had rows of our own seed and the Government’s seed planted, and in every case where there was Government seed, practically no seed germinated at all. My own experience was not singular because it was the same throughout the district. If the Minister applies to Elsenburg he will find they have had many complaints.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 8.5 p.m.

The Minister will remember that when he went to Zululand after last session we had with us Mr. Milligan, the Empire Cotton Corporation expert from India, who I believe is working under the Transvaal University College, and that Mr. Milligan told the cotton planters in Zululand of his attempt to provide them with pure cotton seed for growing there. I would be glad if the Minister could tell us exactly what is going to happen in regard to the experiments which have now been carried out. He will understand that owing to the recent floods in Natal many of the planters there will have lost all their cotton and they will have very great difficulty in getting seed and I would like to know from the Minister if they will be able to obtain seed from those stations which it was proposed to establish at that time. I would like to ask him what he is doing in regard to the establishment of a seed station in Zululand which was spoken of when we were there. Then I would like to raise a question in connection with the bursaries for agricultural students. The Minister will know that it is utterly impossible for agricultural students to learn anything of sugar cultivation in South Africa from an academical point of view and it has been customary in the past for these students to go overseas, to America chiefly, to obtain their tuition, and a number of them are already over in America trying to obtain that technical knowledge of manufacture and of agriculture which they are unable to obtain in this country. I am referring now to students who have gone abroad for an opportunity to obtain knowledge of sugar growing and manufacture in all its branches. We have no institution in this country such as exists in other sugar growing countries; but recently a course has been established at the technical college in Durban where students can go and learn something of the technical side of the industry and I hope that when the experimental station is established they will be able to obtain a scientific knowledge of the other (agricultural) side, which will enable them to qualify for a bursary to carry on their studies abroad. I would like to ask him whether he could not evolve some scheme in connection with the forthcoming experimental station whereby such students could obtain a bursary, such as other agricultural students are obtaining, to go abroad and qualify as experts in the cultivation and manufacture of sugar. Sugar is the second largest agricultural industry in the country and so far the Government have done very little towards its advancement. The institution of bursaries for training at sugar colleges abroad would do much to assist the sugar industry along the path of progress and efficiency.

There is a question I want to raise in regard to the Cedara school of agriculture in Natal. I observe from the annual report of the department of agriculture that it is intended that school shall deal mainly with dairy and pig farming. I should like the Minister to consider whether attention to cotton could not be included in the scope of the school course. We find a considerable number of farmers in Natal wishing to take up the cultivation of cotton, especially in the case of young men, who are desirous of taking up new Crown Lands allotments, but it constitutes disadvantage to their progress that they are unable to obtain tuition in the province of Natal, where the climatic conditions, labour conditions and questions of that kind are similar to those in the area of Zululand where they will be taking up allotments. Quite a considerable number of the settlers who have taken up allotments in Natal would appreciate very much the opportunity of a course in cotton at Cedara and, as there is difficulty in obtaining this form of tuition, I hope the Minister will favourably consider the possibility of including it in the course at Cedara. I must say that we appreciate in Natal the efficiency of those who are attached to the staff and the exceedingly good work that is being done in the way of supplying and spreading farming knowledge not only through the attendance of students at school, but by popular lectures in all centres of the province. We are very appreciative of some of the recent appointments that have been made on the dairy side. Mr. van der Riet, a young South African who has recently taken up an appointment at Cedara, has done remarkably good work in the attention he has given to the dairying side and I should like to ask the Minister to encourage this form of spreading knowledge amongst the farmers. The course of popular lectures and the lecturing at various centres is a method that is appealing very much to the progressive farmers in Natal and I would commend it to the Minister’s favourable consideration.

I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture would be able to give us any figures showing what happens to these students at the agricultural colleges after they have graduated from these colleges and left them. I know of a number of cases where students who, presumably at the expense of the State, have been trained over a long period of years, have drifted into other vocations. I know of one who is practising as an attorney in Johannesburg; another who graduated with very high honours and who is to-day an officer in the Air Force; and without having made any exhaustive enquiries. I am satisfied that a very large number of these students, educated at great cost by the State, never really took up farming in after life. In some cases the fault is not their own because either they cannot raise the capital and they see no prospect of being able to farm for themselves or on the other hand the wages paid to managers or overseers are so small that they are not attractive enough to them, with the consequence that they drift away from agriculture. It seems very bad business from the point of view of the State that we should pay these very heavy amounts which we see here to provide agricultural education for our youths and then to find, as I believe, the majority of them lost to farming altogether and turning their activities into any branch of life in South Africa but that of agriculture.

I should like to ask the Minister a question regarding the scheme initiated some time ago under which the Government secured plots of ground from farmers for the purpose of testing the suitability of the land for cotton growing. I personally was asked by the Agricultural Department to allow four acres of my farm to be used for this purpose, and I know of numerous others who were similarly requested. The scheme seems to be a commendable one deserving of encouragement. As I understood it, the farmer was required to provide the manual labour, implements and draught animals, the experiment to be otherwise under the control and direction of a Government cat-ton expert. The crop would go to the farmer. I have not heard what has happened to the scheme, whether the Minister is following it up, but it is one which, I think, should be encouraged, and I hope the Minister is following it up, because this cotton industry is one which has a future, and there are many, especially small holders with limited capital, who see in this a possibility of making good. The trouble is they lack experience of cotton growing, and this affords them an opportunity of gaining that experience. I speak as a cotton grower myself, and I can testify to the value of the scheme, especially to the small holder. I hope the Minister will persevere with the scheme, because it will afford very useful instruction to farmers generally.

I should like to say a few words on the point raised by the hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell), who certainly put his finger on a weak spot. It is a very strange thing that we send our boys to these agricultural schools, and then when they come out, after a one, two or three years’ course, they cannot get a decent billet. That is the frequent experience.

You are responsible for it.

Who?

All you on that side.

It is a very serious matter, because I have known boys who, after being fairly well-trained, find when they come out that they either cannot get a billet at all, or else it is one at the low rate of pay of £6 to £10 per month. But what can you expect? Look at this vote. Take Elsenburg—Labour, £950. I have not the slightest doubt the majority of these men to whom this money is paid are coloured men. You take boys there to train as farmers and they pay you £60, and from the start you train these boys to use coloured labour and native labour. One would have thought that the policy of this Government, and the country, would be to try and get white labour on the land, and yet we start off by training our future farmers to use nothing but coloured labour. I have mentioned this before—

Have you mentioned it to your friend on your right?

Never mind about that. I do not want to make party capital out of it. I want a remedy. I should have thought it would have been the policy of the Government to use nothing but white youths to do all the labour on the farms. You have two classes, the students who are being trained and who pay a fee of £60 per annum, and the youngsters—who come from the institutions of my friend, the Minister of the Interior, or whose parents cannot afford to pay. Now, if these latter can be taken on to these farms and their keep found and paid a small wage let them do all the farm work. You have two advantages in that. In the first place, you train the boys who are going to be farmers to control white men to some extent; and secondly, you get over that prejudice which exists among farmers in favour of employing coloured labour. If you accustom these youths to deal with white labour from the first you overcome that prejudice in some degree; and again, what I will call the second grade boys can very often get billets as overseers. But, above all, we have got to get rid of this prejudice which exists among farmers against employing white labour. I am a farmer myself among my other activities, and I do not pretend to be any better than others in this respect.

I am very glad this has been raised, and I think I can throw some light on the subject myself. It is the case that we have in this country five agricultural schools, one training farm for settlers, two experimental stations, in addition to several experimental plots. The point I wish to invite the Minister’s attention to is this. I may state broadly—it does not apply in all cases—that whatever training you give at these schools you certainly do not train the long-course students to be farmers. Why, sir, I cannot imagine any intelligent young man who goes to one of these colleges, takes the whole course, and passes, perhaps with honours, who does not have his ardour for farming dampened by what he sees, because the Minister will admit that farming is a matter of figures; your income must exceed your expenditure, or you are not making a success of it. What do we find at these training colleges where they not only have free labour, or should have, but they also get substantial fees? We are voting £29,168 for Elsenburg. The total receipts for school fees, sale of produce and livestock last year was £10,000, and we might expect that in a school like Elsenburg, with all its prestige, and full of experts, that they would get enhanced prices for many of the products. Bloemfontein is £32,000; the total receipts last year were £8,200; Cedara produced £4,961 last year, including the fees. It may be argued that these schools have a very special function no doubt they have. I have no doubt that many of the young men taken into the department as experts, and rightly so, received their training there but the point I want to make is, that, although we have a Department of Economics, we have no practical economics in connection with the Department of Agriculture. I would urge upon the Minister that the time has arrived, after all these years, when the country is full of colleges, teachers and experts, that this matter should be administered in a proper and practical form by having experimental farms in which it could be shown whether or not farmers could make a living under ordinary conditions. Even of the result was negative, the information would be valuable we should have found where the weak spot was. Here we go on year after year paying these huge sums and giving training which, on the whole, is not suitable for practical farming. I have had these young fellows myself, excellent young fellows, but never farmers.

They never were.

The reason is that in these colleges very little attention is given to real economics. In other countries they do establish such farms, and at no cost to the State; they are self-supporting, and in most cases they return a profit. To take poultry farming, we want to find out what the weak spot is there. We have not the necessary information to enable the beginner or the man who has been established for some time to know where the weak spots are. I mention that as one instance. I should like to see experimental grain farms. That would be of benefit in both ways—breeding, growing, and so on, and, in these experimental farms, I have in view those in New South Wales, where they grow oats, wheat, etc., ad in the accounts which are rendered to the Government and which are checked by the Auditor-General, they give, in one column, the result with the grain sold at the ordinary market price, and in another column the enhanced price owing to the special conditions seed quality. I must explain that most of these experimental farms show a profit. That is exactly the information that is so desirable in this country. A lot of farmers in South Africa are not conducting their operations with any degree of commercial success. They do not know the reason, and in spite of the enormous expenditure that this country is devoting to agriculture and agricultural education, we have not the means of giving them that information. If you take any of these figures, it is difficult for a thoughtful young man, who has a turn for economics or figures, to see his way clearly to entering on farming, judging by the results. Such a large gross deficit as is shown in the returns can hardly be explained away. I do not argue for a moment that these schools should necessarily be self-supporting; but is it not the case that in none of these schools is sufficient attention paid to the economic side of farming, or is it explained to the students what the weak points are in farming which are to be avoided, and the strong points which are to be stressed. I see no reason why the Minister with his experts should not give them a chance of showing that they are really practical. If the expert is a poultry man, put him on a poultry farm; even if he is not successful, the information he will acquire will be of extreme value to the community, and the country will not be slow to take advantage of it. The same would apply to almost any department of agriculture in South Africa. This is not the first time, or even the second time, I have mentioned this; but I do not think anything has been done effectively in this matter, and perhaps the Minister will add to the prestige of his department and of himself by taking notice of this item. We have a training farm for settlers at Beginsel. The first object of that farm should be to demonstrate, on the farm itself, that farming pays, or, if it does not, why it does not pay. With regard to these other experimental stations, I know they are not designed for obtaining that particular class of information; but I would urge the Minister to employ some of his experts so that they can show that they are really practical, and that the information they are communicating to the students is not altogether academic, but has some relation to the economics of farming.

The point which the hon. members are now bringing up I also mentioned this afternoon, namely, that the students at the agricultural schools are not farmers’ sons and that the non-farmers’ sons are spoiling the name of the school. I have had experience of that. The hon. member for Fort Beaufort has also had one on his farm. They have been two years at the agricultural school, obtained a certificate, done a little practical work, and then it is expected that they shall be a success as an agriculturist. The person whom I just referred to is now on the railways. Another I know of is now manager of a large Transvaal mine. I do not think anyone will deny that if a practical farmer’s son goes to an agricultural school and comes back a failure that he is worth nothing. The hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) has complained about the heavy expenditure. I do not expect the agricultural schools to pay, but if we spend large sums then surely we expect the colleges to be full and that there should be more students than there are now. Necessarily farming is more expensive at agricultural schools than at other places. There we have expensive buildings, valuable stock and high salaries for teachers, and if we just look at the £10,000 that comes in, then we shall see that the amount spent, reduced by the income from the farming itself, is not so very big, and if the schools are once full then we should refuse to accept other than practical farmers’ sons, because other lads do not make a success. I think we have enough illustrations throughout the world, especially in America, that a good training of our farmers’ sons is of enormous value to the country. They introduce new methods into farming and are beneficial to their own surroundings. I hope that what hon. members say there will not lead to an abolition of agricultural schools. We are only at the beginning of development, we ought to point out to the farmers that enough use is not being made of our agricultural schools.

I think hon. members have been a bit unfair to the agricultural schools. I am one of those who believe that those schools have done admirable work, and it is a great pity that more young men who are going to engage in farming operations do not take a course there.

They cannot get billets.

That may be true, but, unfortunately, the same might be said of most professions. But farmers who can get a boy who has been trained at one of those schools will take him in preference to another boy and pay him a larger salary, and they have done that for the practical experience of knowing the value of his training. I think the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) has gone wrong in thinking that the agricultural schools provide a course of practical training. That training should be taken before the boy goes to the school, or, after his scientific training, he will have the opportunity of a year or two of practical training at the school. When a young fellow passes through his professional training, he requires some practical work to make him au fait with his profession. I do not think my hon. friend, the member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell), when he had just passed through his law course, would have inspired the same confidence as he would now, after he has had practical experience in his profession, and the same applies to the farmers. Beginsel is an institution of an entirely different character. The people who went there to train were people who, either through age, or want of means, had not the opportunity of going to an agricultural college. The position there was that the men only had a year. In the majority of cases whether the men were from overseas or were South Africans, they had not been brought up on a farm, and wanting to learn practical farming, they went there for a year. They had a certain amount of scientific training, but, so far as I know, and I think it exists at the present time, all the labour at Beginsel, with the exception of two boys, who looked after the mules and wagons, was done by the students. Sixty cows were milked every morning by the students. They ploughed, sowed, reaped and mowed, and did every farming operation on the farm themselves. The result was that almost everybody who passed through Beginsel had a year of really practical experience. They even made their own furniture. They lived in a frugal manner, and I had a letter from a certain Major Murray, who had been a year there, and he states—

Take Elsenburg, Grootfontein, Cedara or Potchefstroom, the position is entirely different. There a boy goes not alone to learn practical farming, but to get what is so essential if the country is to be developed; he gets a sound course of scientific agriculture. If the boy did the practical work, as they do at Beginsel, he would not have time to attend the scientific lectures which are necessary if he is to go out as a missionary to develop the less-developed parts of this country. He must learn all about fertilizers; the manner in which plants grow, the necessity of all the new developments in agriculture, but if he is going to spend his morning cleaning stables, a good deal of his time at college is going to be wasted. They are two entirely different propositions, and I hope the Minister will not be drawn away by the suggestion that all the work of the colleges should be done by the boy. The difficulty at these colleges is the time at which the holidays are given. We, unfortunately, have a holiday system in this country which, in many cases, is not suitable for children in agricultural districts and students on agricultural farms, because when you get to the reaping season in certain districts, when the boys ought to be driving the reapers and the mowers, and ought to be becoming acquainted with agricultural implements, they are on holiday. There is the same difficulty in the Western Province during the fruit season. We have a different system in California where, instead of the holidays being made to suit the teachers, they are made to suit the country. We should not have the holidays at the very time when the boys can get practical experience and have their attention concentrated on the land. There may have been mistakes there have been in every country, and there may have been failures, but the idea of people who have investigated our agricultural schools is that the boys get a good training. I took an opportunity of discussing this also with Sir Horace Plunkett and he said he was agreeably surprised at the way our agricultural schools were equipped, and at the training that was given there. It would be unfair to the principals of these schools and their officers, some of whom have very high scientific attainments, if one did not give them credit for the good work they do. I have in my pocket a report on scientific manuring by Dr. Malherbe, of Stellenbosch University, and if I had a son at Elsenburg, I would like him to spend a good many hours attending lectures at Stellenbosch, because they would be of the greatest advantage to him, and the practical portion of the work he would pick up very easily afterwards. If we could get the farmers to take the young fellows from the towns for six months or a year without salary, to obtain practical experience before they proceed to the agricultural colleges, that would be very useful. But while they are at the colleges, they should devote their time to acquiring scientific knowledge, for if the country is ever to progress on sound lines, full advantage must be taken of the technical training to be obtained from our agricultural instructors.

I must say that I am very glad to hear the speeches that have been made to-night. I am certain of it that the four speeches that have been made commencing with the speech of the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) will contribute much to the advancement of agricultural education in the land. I want, too, to say at once that I agree with the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Sir Thomas Smartt). I think that he has shown where the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) and the hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) have gone wrong. Yet I feel that it must be brought home to our people what the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) has said here. Although the hon. member for East London (North) was actually wrong in attributing it to agricultural education, I feel something more, namely, that we, where it is possible, must so go to work that we can show to the farmer in South Africa what kind of farming will pay or can be made to pay. But I quite agree with the hon. member for Fort Beaufort that the blame cannot be laid upon the agricultural colleges. They are there more to give scientific knowledge, the rest are side issues for the lads that are there. My experience is that the more I become acquainted with the agricultural colleges the more I appreciate the work done there. The students who are there must work, and they work hard, and if there is one thing that our boys should learn then it is that. If that goes with scientific training, then it is so much gained. But we should not require them to be payable. I want to add this, that I fully agree that some farmers should learn to appreciate the agricultural colleges and the education that is given there in scientific farming. My experience in South Africa is, and I have also seen it in Europe, that the farming population is the most conservative class of the population. We must, therefore, inspan ourselves and say: No, we cannot remain stationary, we must go ahead. The existence of five agricultural schools has been objected to. I feel that if we had another five schools and the pupils were available, that I would willingly favour the establishment of another five. In the past we complained that the agricultural colleges were very badly attended. It seems to me that the boys wanted to see what the advantage of the institution was. The membership at Glen has, I think, risen from 30 to 80. We, therefore, at once see what prospect there is for the institutions. What also is gratifying to me is that there are farmers who, eighteen months ago, were opposed to the institutions, who, for instance, said to me that it was unwise for my son to be sent there, and that I should rather have sent him to a practical farmer, who has now completely changed his opinion. They have said to me that they acknowledge that they were wrong. I have persuaded them to allow some of the pupils at Grootfontein to come to them in connection with the manipulation of their wool. They have admitted that those pupils could teach them something. Where that is the case we should support the institutions. If there is one vote that I heartily support, it is this one.

I would like to reply to the point raised by the hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell). He forgets that, in many cases boys are sent to agricultural colleges who, under no circumstances, would ever make farmers, and these are the lads who cannot obtain employment. As to Cedara, the boys who qualify there are eagerly sought after, and many have gone to Rhodesia and earned such a good name that their services are being enquired for. One cannot expect, however, that these agricultural colleges should be self-supporting. The hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) does not know the immense value of Cedara and its great timber potentialities. The most important portion of the work done by these agricultural colleges, is the holding of short courses, which the farmers and their wives attend. As a result of the instruction given at Cedara, the production of eggs in Natal has shown a remarkable increase, and a big export trade has been established. Farmers who wish their sons to receive a scientific training, send them to the colleges for a short course, and the value of this I have proved with my own sons. If the boys are to become practical farmers, they must do the actual work, in all its branches for themselves. Youths attending these colleges have also an opportunity of learning the use of tools and agricultural machinery. I hope the Minister will not be discouraged by the adverse comments which have been passed.

Although I am not a farmer, I am competent to discuss some aspects of the value of these agricultural colleges, and I think I am right in saying that a very large percentage of their students, do not continue at farming in later life. A relative of mine came back after the war, obtained a scholarship to go to Glen College, and graduated at the head of the college. That was about four years ago. He looked round for a situation and eventually obtained one, with one of the wealthiest farmers of the Transvaal, and he got what were top wages—£15 per month and had to keep himself. He continued with this farmer for two years on that basis, but having no capital and seeing no prospect of bettering himself, he accepted a commission in the flying corps. He told me that the great majority of the young fellows who graduated with him at Glen are not in farming to-day. What practical help does the State give to those boys who graduate, but who are not the sons of wealthy men? It is no use for the right hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Sir Thomas Smartt) saying that in every profession you have to go through a period of training. In the ordinary professions you do not need capital in the sense that you need it when you become a farmer, and if the lads have no capital they will inevitably drift into some other occupation, and then the money the State has spent in giving them an agricultural education, is entirely lost. I venture to say that figures will reveal that an alarmingly large percentage of these agricultural students have drifted into the towns. I don’t want to strike a discordant note in this paean of praise of the work of the agricultural schools but I can express an opinion on the amount of money it is costing. According to the estimates Elsenburg provides education for 40 diploma students and this year it is to cost nearly £30,000. Look at the staff at Elsenburg. One principal getting £1,000 a year, a vice-principal getting £1,050 a year, one farm manager, house master, fourteen lecturers and experimenters, one matron, five clerical assistants, 13 assistants, farm stockmen, mechanics, etc., and one temporary assistant; a staff of 38 people to teach 40 boys, and I suppose to do experimental work in addition. At the same time it does seem that our agricultural education is on far too expensive a basis. I am told there are more than 40 but I can only take the estimate which says the estimated number of diploma students is 40 and the main work is to educate these forty diploma students and such an institution costs close upon £30,000. Are we not spending money on too lavish a scale on these colleges? I cannot expect the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Sir Thomas Smartt) to agree because he is as responsible as the present Minister, but for years past I have had an impression that the expenditure on these colleges is on too lavish a scale.

I just wish to say a few words in connection with the speech of the hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell). I can speak from experience because I myself was a lecturer at the Glen agricultural school and I know what those schools are doing. The hon. member has spoken about the high expenditure in connection with the lecturers and assistants, 38 in number, as against the 40 students that receive instruction. But his argument is based on a completely wrong ground. The staff do not only instruct the students but have many other duties. The hon. member has himself referred to the short courses but does he not know that the lecturers also travel about constantly addressing farmers’ weeks and giving demonstrations and doing other things to assist the farmers? Hundreds of letters daily reach the colleges from all portions of the province where the agricultural school is asking questions of the lecturer in connection with fowls, sheep, horses, wool, etc. To answer the questions is part of their work. Take the Glen agricultural school. Practically the whole of the Free State is given information from the school and benefits by the presence of the institution there. According to the report, for instance, the following work is done by the Glen institution besides training the students. Farmers weeks are held in 12 centres in the Free State where 85 lectures were given by lecturers. Twenty lectures were given in conjunction with the demonstration train. In one year demonstrations were held 201 times on farms and villages. Thirty times lecturers acted as judges at shows and further 352 lectures were given in villages in the Free State which were attended by thousands of people. Information was given on hundreds of questions by letter and when a lecturer returned from a trip through the country then I know from experience that he had to work late for weeks to deal with the accumulated correspondence. They are the question box of the whole province. Therefore I am sorry at the criticism the hon. member has made. Before he criticized he should have read the reports a little and not only take a few unconnected figures and criticize in relation to them.

From what my hon. friend says I would like to look at the list of members of the committee on public accounts and I would like to assure myself that there are some who have knowledge of agricultural subjects, because from what my hon. friend says I am inclined to think the majority of the members on that select committee have not been chosen from among the farmers of this House. I don’t think my hon. friend is fair in the manner he criticizes this vote. He talks about 40 students. There are 40 diploma students, but there are about 100 others getting other courses, besides which, the agricultural schools are linked up with the department of extension, and the scientific officers are doing good work, not alone in teaching the students, but in holding meetings with the farmers and in bringing science to the doors of the farmers. It was on that account the Minister of Railways made the reductions to allow these officers to go about. Every week there is an officer from Elsenburg at Cape Town to meet farmers and answer any questions they may put to him. These colleges are constantly getting into communication with farmers. From my own experience, if there is anything you want to know in regard to animal husbandry or agriculture, or if you are doubtful as to diseases in your fruit trees, or doubtful as regards fertilizers, every farmer has the whole of the information available that the staff of the agricultural colleges produce. That is not taken into consideration when you talk about 40 diploma students supplemented by 100 other students. There are times when the farmers of the Western Province go to Elsenburg and they are taking greater interest in it than ever before, and you are gradually disseminating scientific agricultural knowledge among farmers, and that is worth the expenditure of a great deal of money. If my hon. friend would read note (d) he will find that at Elsenburg much of the expenditure was in connection with returned soldiers, who were getting a practical course and not a theoretical course. It often appears that there are a large number of scientific officers compared with the students, but they are doing extra work which people who have not gone into the question cannot imagine. There was another point raised, and it has been raised before in this House. I remember when Mr. van Heerden, now President of the Senate, who was one time Minister of Agriculture, was extremely anxious to meet the view of the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger), and that was, that besides the scientifically trained boy, there is an enormous opening for the white boy who is able to take the place of the skilled agricultural labourer in Europe, and it was suggested a training establishment should be opened to teach the boys practical work, to train them so that they would be able to take hold of a plough and plough a straight furrow and learn the system of irrigation. With the development taking place in the country I maintain, if the colleges do what our friend says, there would be a large number of these people who could be used as overseers, and I am certain it would pay the farmers to give these men a good wage. I know the exalted impression the legal profession have of fees, and my hon. friend talks in a flighty manner of retainers of 200, 300 and 500 guineas.

You mean we dream about them.

It is difficult for them to imagine that £15 a month is little pay. If a boy goes from an agricultural school at the age of 21 and is paid £50 a year for the two years he has been there, and if he can start from that point and gain experience for a few years at £15 a month, he is doing very well indeed, and it is better that he should get small pay like that than that he should learn extravagant habits which will not be in his own interests later on. I am sorry the Minister of Lands is not here, because I welcome the settlement scheme. Any young fellow who has a few years’ experience under the liberal arrangements which allow these people to settle on a small scale, there will be, I am sure, an opening for every one of them, and that will be a great advantage. The farmer cannot pay these high fees, and the hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell) will realize that we cannot pay these high retaining fees. But farmers will realize it is to their advantage to pay these fellows, who have had a training, a reasonable salary. Then there is the second class, the young white fellow, with the training in the practical work of agriculture. There ought to be openings for them in hundreds and hundreds of farms in the country. Unfortunately there is a certain section of the farmers who do not think there is any duty thrown upon them to employ a certain number of these white people throughout the country. I remember meeting a large body of farmers when I went to the Free State, where I got a most courteous reception, notwithstanding our differences in political opinions, and where I pointed out in the most friendly manner to farmers that they must reconsider whether they cannot also do a great deal in developing agriculture in this country by every man seeing that he employs at least one of these people or one of these families upon his own farm, and he would thus help very much to solve these problems which face us from day to day.

I was glad to hear the two speeches of the hon. members for Fort Beaufort (Sir Thomas Smartt) and Umvoti (Mr. Deane) after we had listened all the afternoon to criticism in connection with the expenditure under this vote. The hon. members whom I have just named acknowledged the good work done by the schools and pointed out that it could not be expected that we could make a profit. I was sorry that the hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell) was not here this afternoon when I explained the extent of the work of the agricultural school. Let me just repeat, there were 1,785 students at the agricultural schools, including the short courses. The hon. member for Ladybrand (Mr. Swart) has just referred to the extent of the work, to the many lectures that are given, and all the information that is provided. As to the high salaries about which the hon. member for Bezuidenhout made some observations, it must be remembered that these people have been for years engaged on the work and have had great experience. The principals and lecturers give lectures, and their views are very valuable and are respected in the country. They fulfil an important rôle in the education of the people. The hon. the Prime Minister has rightly said that our people are a little backward (terughoudend) and still want to farm as their grandfathers did, but we cannot any longer farm like our grandfathers, and the agricultural schools are there to spread new methods and to help our farmers forward. The hon. member for Bezuidenhout has referred to the tremendous sums that are spent and asks how many of the students become farmers. I have not got the figures, but it is of course possible that in the past, with all the difficulties and slight support which was given to the young lads, they sometimes went into another occupation. The hon. member for Bezuidenhout will also probably throw up his occupation if he can get a better one. But I can assure the House that many of the students have become good farmers and made a success of farming. The people who have studied farming are being appreciated more and more by our farmers. Now we have introduced the principle to advise the boys who have studied to remain in touch with the principal of their college so that we may know where to find young men who are looking for a job as foreman, etc., and we can also notify them when we hear of an appointment that is vacant. We also appoint some of these boys in the agricultural department when there are vacancies, but it is not to be expected that the Government can find a job for all the students. They must go into the world and look for an appointment. The hon. member for Zululand (Mr. Nicholls) has asked what the department is doing with reference to delivering cotton seed. Well, as in the last year, we shall again this year provide the people, as far as possible, with first-class seed from our experimental farms at the usual prices. Then he asks whether provision could not be made for the study of sugar. We do not yet require schools for that. The hon. member knows that we intend to establish a new experimental farm in Natal, and then we shall consider how to make provision to give students the opportunity of studying this matter, but up to the present they must go oversea to study. Then the hon. member for Umvoti (Mr. Deane) has asked whether we cannot also establish a course in cotton at Cedara in Natal. That is difficult, but what we actually do is to give lectures among the farmers and to instruct them as to the best way of cultivating and handling cotton. The experimental plot system will, if possible, be extended. The hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) has insisted that all work at experimental farms should be done by whites. He knows that as far as possible we use whites in certain institutions, and we are also going to use white labour as much as possible on the experimental farms, but he can be certain that the young lads will have to take off their coats to their work at the agricultural schools. The hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) objects that the youths are not taught to farm in an economical manner. Well, they are thoroughly taught to use two spans of oxen and not five where only two are necessary, but of course one cannot farm so cheaply at the agricultural school. The large buildings, the expense of maintenance of the children, the salaries of the teachers, the buildings to accommodate the children, all these make the farming there not as paying as it might be. I also hope that the hon. member will bear in mind the many journeys that the lecturers take, the lectures that are given, and all other work. He will then appreciate that no profit can be made. As for poultry farming, I only want to say that there are people in our country who have made a great success of it. There is a farmer’s wife in Malmesbury who last year made £1,100 out of eggs and after payment of all expenses still had a profit of £700. I do not think that the criticism which has been made on the vote was all justified. When we take into consideration the knowledge that is disseminated among the farmers by means of these institutions then the expenditure under this head is not at all too high. We must also have the best men to lead in the education, otherwise the matter will end in failure. I hope that hon. members, with the hon. member for Fort Beaufort, will defend these schools and that we shall now pass the vote.

I have not risen to take up time unnecessarily, and I do not want the Minister to reply, but I would like to call his attention to one point. I notice he is putting £1,500 towards wheat experiments. We know that a couple of years ago the Bathurst experiment station was started for the purpose of carrying out these experiments. I understand since that has been there that other more profitable crops have been started, such as fruit and cotton and things of that sort. That I do not object to. I can only say I wish he would consult with his department to see whether some of this money might not now be expended for suitable fertilizers and suitable seed for the coastal districts, and thus see whether in these districts a revival of the old cereal industry could be established. Another point I would like to call the Minister’s attention to is in connection with the agricultural colleges. If money is at all plentiful we should have in the colleges the best possible exhibition of the newest agricultural implements. That is really extremely important. Not only the students will see them, but the farmers will see them also; because if we have to compete with other countries we must follow the newest and latest scientific developments in agricultural implements. It would also give students a chance of seeing these implements put up and taken down, because he finds a great difficulty when he goes up-country, far away from the railway line, and a complicated reaper and binder comes along and no one on the farm knows properly how to put it together. I hope the Minister will request the agricultural schools to pay attention to this matter, because it is of the greatest value to men on the veld.

I am sorry to take up further time, but I feel I should be doing an outrage to my sense of duty if I did not speak on this matter. I find myself in almost entire agreement with the hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell). He is quite right. It seems to me that we are very foolish indeed if we spend money as we are doing, with the finest intellects and the highest trained minds in the country, teaching these youths if they are not going to do anything with that teaching. It is like building a ship without putting the engine in. It cannot go. It seems to me an entire waste of money, and this is the policy that has been pursued all along. I think the ex-Minister of Agriculture will agree that in his time the same thing applied. We gave lads a most expensive training and turned them into the world with nothing for them to do. We cannot highly train lads in agriculture and turn them into fishermen or shop-walkers or street sweepers; because that often happens, and my hon. friend is perfectly correct. There are very few openings for these lads to walk into. If the Minister of Agriculture makes enquiries, he will find that the salaries offered to these highly qualified lads, theoretically—they only want a little practical experience—are such that they cannot possibly accept them. On the other hand, there are some really progressive men in this country, who are employing men of this calibre and paying them a decent salary, but there are on record a good number of cases where £2 or £3 a month and their food was offered.

No. Qualified men?

Yes, qualified men. I want to urge the Minister seriously to consider this aspect of the question, and that we should not stop short at passing the lads out of the college gates. We have had to import experts in our agricultural departments, in its various phases; but I think the time has pretty well arrived when we could fairly well fill all our official posts from those whom we train ourselves. Then in view of the broad-minded policy instituted by the present Minister of Lands, you will have agricultural settlements laid out, I hope, all over the country. There should be openings for controllers of these settlements. With a little practical experience, these lads would be ideal for these jobs. True, a comparatively large number are sons of farmers, who will take over their father’s farm, or assist their father; but there is a large residue of lads with no openings, and that brings me to the crux of the situation The Minister should confer with the Minister of Lands, and arrange for large State land settlement schemes in this country; but he should make these settlements real farms, not simply bare veld. I cannot allow this opportunity to pass without complimenting the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) on his attitude. You see we all learn; we all progress; even the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) is going ahead and beginning to realize the advantage to the country of uplifting our civilization. It is refreshing to hear him urging that you should not have coloured labour in these agricultural schools and experimental farms. I entirely agree with him; because if you are going to train a lad to be a farmer, he must do it all himself. You must not inculcate, from the beginning, that he is going to be a supervisor. As the hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Sir Thomas Smartt) said, he must be able to take down his machines and put them together again. I do not believe half the farmers could put their machines together. I am a mechanic, and I would not like to say I could do it now. All the incidentals in connection with farming have to be taught by practical use, otherwise you are not training the lads properly. I had to bring to the attention of the late Minister of Agriculture, a case where a lad attending one of these colleges, specially to learn the control of fruit farming and its operations, told his father that he had never been allowed to prune when at the college, and had done none of what one might call the “donkey” work; but that is essential. When you have trained the lad right from the beginning, you have trained the farmer, and then you must give him an opportunity to put his farming into practical use, and not just leave him outside the school gates.

When the Minister answered this afternoon I inferred from his reply that he had misunderstood me. I noticed that he was anxious to have the vote passed before six o’clock and so I did not wish to worry him. As we are now on it again I should like to make the position plain. I did not say that it was better that young people should go and work for three years with the farmers. I said that all the students could not be taken for a three years’ course at Grootfontein. I did not speak about short courses. When I was speaking of experience I said that if a student had two years’ or one year’s experience he could learn so much the better at the agricultural school. Last year Grootfontein could only take 18 students. There were 60 applications. They however allowed the whole 60 to come and then the people found that they first had to pass an examination and that only 18 could be taken. That was not fair because they had great expense in going there. I know of one of them who gave up his job to go there. I therefore do not think that they were treated justly. If more applications are received than what there are vacancies for then the applicants must be told that they cannot all be taken on.

I am sorry I did not make myself clear to the Minister, who is mistaken in assuming that I want the accounts of these agricultural colleges to balance or to show a profit. That is not my point at all. Some members seem to think that these agricultural colleges must receive no adverse criticism. I yield to no one in my admiration of the good work they are doing, but I want to make them more valuable to the community. We have as fine agricultural experts as are to be found in any part of the world, but these agricultural colleges do not give the complete training that turns out practical farmers; they turn out young men who later become sheep and wool experts and so on. The braining is not sufficiently practical for a farmer. I wish to know why the costs of production at these institutions are no longer given. Surely it is not the soundest training which an intending farmer should receive for him to be shown how to grow a bag of mealies at the cost, say, of £2, and to sell it for 10s. We want to keep the cost of production quite separate from the cost of training. On page 146 of the estimates under the heading of Beginsel training farm for settlers are certain details. Here is an institution evidently designed to train settlers in the way they should go. The total cost of this college is £4,037, including £1,500 for servants, provisions, fuel, light, laundry and incidental expenses and £300 for household equipment and furniture. We will wipe that off, leaving the net cost of superintendent, instructors, practical farm foremen, matron, clerical assistants and storemen, labour, seeds and manures and general equipment and incidental expenses at £2,200. This farm has been going on for some time and the total production, including the fees paid by the students, is £685. On the facts this does not seem to be an ideal system of training for settlers. I suppose the fees will be £200 or £300, but at all events it is obvious that the farming operations are not successful, and if an ordinary individual undertook farming on that scale he would very soon find himself in the bankruptcy court. I wonder if the Minister has ever heard the expression “gentleman farmer,” which has been defined as “a man who knows how farming should be done and is rich enough to stand the loss?” That is very much what I am afraid is taking place in some of our agricultural colleges. They show how wheat and mealies should be grown and with the Government behind them the loss does not matter. It is all-important that the cost of production should not exceed what we receive for our produce, and until we work more definitely on these lines, showing students how farms can be made to pay, there will be that reluctance to go on to the land that the hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell) has alluded to. The students from these colleges are exceedingly useful as assistants, but they are not complete farmers or qualified farm managers, and they cannot be, because of the inadequacy of the training they receive. The scientific training is excellent up to a certain point, but it steps short at the practical point. No hon. member suggests that there should be a reduction of the vote, and we want to extend the activities of these colleges, but on more practical lines. The Minister can hire farms if necessary, put these bright young men on them, and actually demonstrate if farming does or does not pay. If it does not pay the information will be invaluable as showing up the weak points. It would be a great pity if the staffs at these colleges got the idea that we do not appreciate their work. We do, and we want to extend their activities so that the students should receive it in a more practical form. I hope the Minister will see that it is not the desire that the accounts of these institutions should balance, but we do want to know that some attempt will be made to demonstrate to the students what the costs of production are—in other words give that necessary training that will enable those who wish to take up farming on their own account to make a success of it.

I agree with the Minister that this is a very important vote and, therefore, it is a good thing that we should go into matters. I have before me the figures for the agricultural school at Potchefstroom. The school costs about £30,000 according to the 1923-24 report. The income is about £11,000, so that the school costs the country a full £20,000. That is a large sum of money. The costs of labour at Potchefstroom are about £7,000, which is money spent on labour to work the farm. There are fully 60 students, young people to be trained. They must do all the work. All the work is, therefore, done gratis by the students, but yet £7,000 is spent on labour. No coloured person is employed and, therefore, I want to ask the Minister why this £7,000 is required there. Further, more than £1,000 is spent for forage for animals, yet the farm could produce this. The same applies to food which is now bought to the extent of £2,000. The farm apparently produces nothing, everybody who has seen the farm knows that if we hand it over to a few farmers to work that they would make a great profit out of it. The lands are large, they are not all cultivated. The Minister ought to go thoroughly into the expenses of the experimental farm, because too much money is being spent. I agree with what has been said here to-day that we have too many experimental farms. What benefit does the ordinary farmer get from the experimental farms? One seldom meets a farmer who has a son at this school. It costs £75 per annum, and there are few parents who can afford that. The consequence is that the child of the poor man does not go there at all and the schools are of very little use to the population in the country. The same thing applies there as with the large schools in the towns. The rich man’s son has the benefit of them and not the poor man’s son. I wish to urge the Minister to grant more bursaries for the sons of poor parents, so that they also can have the advantage of this school. It is cheaper to-day to send one’s son to the Johannesburg university and to have him educated for a degree than to send him to Potchefstroom.

There is one small point I wish to draw the attention of the Minister to. The hon. member for Illovo (Mr. Marwick) referred to the excellent work of Mr. van der Riet at Cedara, but, unfortunately, he has not the necessary equipment. There are no proper dairy buildings, and I hope the Minister will consider the extension of the dairy buildings and various equipment. I believe the Natal Province is the best part of the Union for dairying, and we really do want an extension of buildings at Cedara so that the lecturer may have every opportunity of demonstrating to the students the best way to carry on the dairying industry.

I would like to prut my hon. friend right. He has never been to Cedara. It is one of the best-equipped dairies in the country.

No.

You must be thinking of some other part.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote 30, “Forestry,” £171,876,

I want to say a few words about afforestation in my constituency. The history of afforestation in Caledon is very important. It began under the Jameson Government and if there is one thing that is good that has been done by the former Governments in the general interest of the country then it is the planting of trees in the district of Caledon. The State possesses there about 5,000 morgen of ground. Most of it is already under afforestation and the forests show that the trees there have a virility which is equal to that in any other part of the world. I therefore think that the former Government of the Cape Province and also of the Union acted wisely and did a very good thing when they planted these forests. I hope that the present Government also will do everything in its power to extend the afforestation in the interests of South Africa. We have now however got to the position that the available suitable ground is very small. I am acquainted with the afforestation from the beginning.

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, I don’t think you have a quorum.

Committee counted, and the Chairman declared that a quorum was present.

I wanted to say that I had the honour of being the agent of the former Governments in the old Cape days to acquire the ownership of every morgen of ground there for the State. The ground is now however so limited that the Government cannot get much more first class ground to develop on a large scale. I wrote some months ago to the Minister of Agriculture and showed that it was necessary for the Government to take steps to acquire ground. I took it upon myself to go so far as to get options for the Government on four farms until the representatives of the Minister of Lands could come and satisfy themselves of the value of the ground there adjoining the plantations. The Minister replied that he had no money and the matter lapsed. After that a practical farmer came along and bought a farm there for £8,000. A few weeks ago a business man from Cape Town came and bought a farm there for about £12,000. It adjoins the plantation. The ground is thus gradually coming into the hands of private people and the Government will later on not get any more of it. I made it clear to the Minister of Lands that there should be co-operation between him and the Minister of Agriculture. There we have suitable ground and land settlement can go parallel with the planting of forests. I expressed the opinion strongly to the Minister, that there were people in the Western Province who could not of themselves get ground. The State has bought the ground there at a pound a morgen so that even if it now has to pay a fairly high price for the ground it will not be too dear because the ground is near the market. If the people have to go far from the railway it will in the long run not pay the State. Even if the State should pay £50 per morgen we find that a morgen is worth £400 when the trees are 20 years old. That is the economy of afforestation. Settlers can at the same time do work there. The ground can be developed by cooperation between the two Ministers. We now find that the Government wants to use ground on top of the Nuweberge on the road from Elgin to Villiersdorp to make a kind of settlement there. Well, as one who attaches great importance to proper settlement and as one who has known this part of the country for 32 years I want to warn the Government that scheme is unsatisfactory. That ground is now under snow or under water in some places. How will the people live there in the winter? The soil is very poor there and the people will not be able to make little gardens there. We cannot make settlers of them there to inspire them with any ambition. The Minister means well but I hope that he will not put the people there. With the best intentions in the world the people will go away from there. It is miles away from the railway and there is no chance of getting a railway there. The costs of transport will be too high to permit of the undertaking paying.

I would like to ask the Minister if he has not had repeated complaints in regard to the great delay in getting deliveries of timber from the various plantations. In some cases orders have been placed with the Government plantation at Robertson for at least six months. Invariably the reply of the officer in charge has been that he must first wait for the Government inspector to pass the timber before it can be cut. In view of the continuous decline in the timber markets of the world, particularly timber imported to this country. I submit that some more expeditious system should be formulated to ensure prompt deliveries I would commend these complaints to the Minister.

I would like the Minister to tell us how the white labour experiments are going on in the forest department. According to the last return there were employed 980 families and 100 single men and the total number of men, women and children in the settlement on the 31st of March was 4318. I would be glad if the Minister would tell us something about the conditions under which these people are living and if the policy designed by the previous Government of moving them on to fresh settlements is to be continued.

I just want to answer a few questions that have been put to me. We all agree that the planting of trees is very important. Many of us, however, do not know how many trees are being planted in the Union, and therefore I would like to give a few figures. Up to the present 122,843 acres have been planted, last year 12,000 acres were planted, and this year, up to the present, about 11,000 acres. We hope to plant more this year. It is certainly necessary to go on fast with this because we are still annually importing wood to the value of £2,000,000. The hon. member for Caledon (Mr. Krige) has said that we should buy more land in the district of Caledon. We have sufficient ground for years in the neighbourhood of Elgin, so that at the moment we cannot buy more ground there. When the hon. member wrote to the Minister of Lands there was no money available for the purchase. Where we can get ground at a lower price we will buy it, because poor ground is suited to the planting of trees. I will this year, in consultation with the Minister of Lands, see where we can get more ground for afforestation. The hon. member for Swellendam (Mr. Buirski) has spoken about the delay in delivery of wood ordered. I must say that I have received complaints. I have brought them to the notice of the head of the department and he has reprimanded the officials. If members have complaints they must bring them to my notice and I will immediately take steps, because I know that we should not delay delivery. The hon. member for Zululand (Mr. Nicholls) asked about the experiments in planting trees with poor white labour. It is a matter which was tackled by the former Government when men came to them for work; they dealt with the matter wisely. What we are now doing is to give people that go away from afforestation the preference in the settlements, and we find that the people, after two years at afforestation, have learnt how to work, and that they are suitable settlers. We are obliged to continue the experiment or to go on with the system. I take it that the wages are very small, but the people are thankful for the relief.

I asked a direct question of the Minister to which he has not replied. I thank him, however, for the other information. I should like to know whether the Government intends to make a new settlement at Elgin and if it will be high up the mountain side, because if land in the valley is still available for plantations then he will not be wise in going up higher.

The Department of Labour asked me if there was not land available where forests could be planted by people temporarily out of work. The people will in the meantime be settlers there until they are suited to be transferred elsewhere. I am glad that the hon. member gave me the information about Elgin, and I will bear it in mind in our further plans.

I am sorry to see that this vote shows an increase of only £4,074. With a return to prosperity it is a reflection, that only £171,876 is being spent by the Government on such an important department as forestry. Our national forests have been denuded, and we are importing far too much timber which ought to be grown in this country. I notice that only £2,730 is to be spent in Natal as against £10,000 in the Transkei. Natal is essentially a tree-growing country and eminently suited for afforestation. The Minister should extend afforestation work in Natal, and while adding to our national resources, also help to relieve the unemployment which is so prevalent. With regard to the plantations which are in progress. I should like to know what proportion of soft woods are being planted as compared with hard. We are importing enormous amounts of soft woods for the fruit industry, and we can grow varieties which mature in eight or ten years. Thus it is very important indeed that soft wood should preponderate in planting our forests.

I just want to say to the hon. member for Umvoti (Mr. Deane) that this expenditure on afforestation is only preliminary. If he will have a little patience he will see that on the loan estimates there is a considerable increase for this year for the planting of trees. In Natal about £30,000 will be spent. Then he has recommended us to go in for the planting of soft wood. I can assure him that the head of the forest department, who has very good knowledge about afforestation, informs me that about 90 per cent. of the trees that are planted are as a matter of fact soft wood.

Perhaps the Minister would tell us what arrangements they have with regard to the disposal of timber in the various areas, whether it is given out at the old prices or whether any change has been made in the arrangements so far as valuing timber is concerned. Can he give the committee any information with regard to the snout beetle which has been doing so much damage in certain places. It has destroyed a number of trees in Tokai.

It is all over the country.

Has he appointed a special entomologist to go into the question because the ravages of this snout beetle may become very serious. I would like to ask him how many acres he will be able to take in hand. It is not a question of this vote or the loan vote. It is a question of whether you have sufficient trained officers in the department to take over more than the twelve or thirteen thousand acres you have in hand at the present time. In the Tokai school, where foresters are trained, the vote is £200. Last year it was £900. With the adjustment of the forest vote some of this may appear on the loan vote, but it appears as if you are cutting down the number of people trained at Tokai. With regard to the housing of the people under the settlement scheme on the plantations, I understand the Minister said these were going on satisfactorily. I knew certain of the people placed in these plantations have done very well indeed, and I hope he will give piece work to those desirous of working on these plantations. Some of the houses were put up quickly, and are not of the best possible character, but I presume it is the intention of the Minister to keep these various settlements going, because they have done so much good, and have made provision for a large number of people who would have been, otherwise, in a precarious position. In some of these cases of piece work I understand men have made £20 and £21 a month. It showed some of these people deserved every possible encouragement, and I gather that a selection of them will be made to get an opportunity during the Government settlement scheme to be placed on the land and enabled to get a start for themselves.

We are continuing the piece work system under which those who work the hardest earn the most. As regards settlements created by the former Government we are also continuing them, and the people get the preference to go to the settlements. We find that they are the best settlers and then new people are employed in their places on the works. As for the wood at Knysna, it is sold as the hon. member for Fort Beaufort knows at a fixed price per cubic foot. I have reduced it a little, I think ½d. It is easier to sell it per cubic foot, although that also is not without difficulty. As for the students at Tokai, 20 are being sent this year. We are continuing it, but we do not want more students than can hereafter be placed, otherwise they will reproach us in the future. The departmental head is keeping an eye on this matter. The reduction in this vote is due probably to a reduction in the house furniture.

I would like to make a few remarks with regard to this forestry vote. I was informed the other day that in the financial year 1923-’24, over 10,000 acres were planted, and that in the following year over 12,000 acres were planted, representing over 23,000 acres of forest trees. To most of us that sounds extremely satisfactory, but when we have the fact that we import £2,500,000 worth of soft wood timber into South Africa, and that the demand throughout the world is increasing for soft wood timber, we must realize that some day we shall have to be self-supporting, and there is no question that the practice and system of planting should be increased as much as possible. I feel that we ought to have from the Government some announcement of a really national policy in regard to afforestation. Not only are our needs growing every year and the market available becoming less and less every year, but we have to recognize the position we are in with regard to the drying up of our rivers, and I would like to see the Government introduce a national policy of afforestation by appropriating land wherever practicable for the purpose of preserving the head waters of our larger streams and rivers. I think it would be as well for the Government to begin as early as possible in this direction, not only for the purpose of providing ourselves with timber but to try and improve the condition and to make our streams more perennial streams, as they were in the old days. I think we all recognize that the rivers are steadily drying up, not because in every case the forests have been destroyed, but because the vegetation of our hills is disappearing. In the old days we had a natural sponge in our mountains which kept the streams in perennial condition. To-day these mountains require attention and care from the Government, and that is why I should like to see a national scheme of afforestation carried out. It would be wise for the Government to try and secure these lands wherever possible for afforestation purposes. If the Government started a system of that kind it would be an example to the farmers to do the same in a small way, and it would also be an example to encourage them not only to try and plant trees, but to preserve their own veld. We all know that the Midlands to-day are steadily deteriorating; according to the census returns not only is the European population diminishing, but the stock running on Midland farms is less than it was 30 or 35 years ago, all showing steady deterioration of the soil. If the Government started a policy of this kind in regard to afforestation and preserving the mountains, it would be propaganda to the farmers to follow in the same way.

I have already given the figures with regard to afforestation. This year we hope to plant 20,000 acres against 12,000 last year. We hope continually to extend but we cannot go too fast. We must take into account that we need the necessary officials to do so. With reference to streams of water and brush wood I will only say to the hon. member for Queenstown (Mr. Moffat) that I am giving much attention to the matter. The Zwartbergen are being looked after by the Government to prevent the indigenous trees being burnt. One of the greatest dangers connected with the burning of grass and trees is that our streams are weakened thereby. As far as finances permit people are being appointed in the Zwartbergen and the position is fairly satisfactory, although here and there an accident is caused by careless people. We are trying to catch those people and punish them. I am doing everything to prevent further damage being caused because I feel how important it is for the water supply of our country.

Would the Minister please tell us how the Harding plantations at lngeli are getting on. One heard, some time ago, that those people were either dissatisfied with the way in which they were being treated by the agricultural department, or were deserting and joining the railways where they were being offered greater attractions. I should like to know whether these people are being kept under better control, the country cannot afford to establish labour colonies and schemes only to find those for whom the work was primarily instituted leaving their duties and being provided with part appointments at the public expense.

I have not heard of any desertions from these plantations. The head of the department recently visited some of these plantations in Natal and he told me that it is one of the best parts of the country for plantations. As I have pointed out already, we are spending about £30,000 in Natal. As to men changing over the railways in order to get better pay, you very often get men trying to change their position, but in the case of the forest department, when they come they have to sign on, so that they cannot run away. I have not heard of any complaints, however, but, as the hon. member has brought the matter to my notice, I will enquire whether these men are in any way dissatisfied, and, if so, whether we can meet them.

Vote put and agreed to.

Owing to the absence of the Minister concerned, I move—

Agreed to.

Vote 33, “Lands,” £197,545, put.

On the motion of Sir Thomas Smartt it was agreed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported; House to resume in Committee to-morrow.