laid upon the Table—

Papers relating to:

1. (75) Proposed school site on Ram Island, Orange River, Gordonia.
2. (76) Proposed amendment of title deed of school site No. 1, Mossel Bay.
3. (77) Proposed sale of Erf XI, Block Z, Tarkastad.
4. (78) Proposed amendment of title deeds of two pieces of land held by Church of England at Wynberg.
5. (79) Proposed allotment out of hand of Lot U.153, Umfolozi.
6. (80) Proposed sale of certain land lying between Marienthal and Wiesbaden, King-williamstown.

Papers referred to Select Committee on Crown Lands.

The PRIME MINISTER, with leave, made a statement on the proposed arrangement of the Order Paper for to-morrow.

On Friday I moved to delete £5,000, being the bounty for the manufacture of superphosphates. My hon. friend has now had time to think over that and I hope he will agree with it. There are one or two more questions I want to put to the Minister. I notice a Vote of £250 for expenses of the Electricity Control Board. I would like to ask, as we have not had any report from the board, what is the position. Have they been able to come to terms with the municipality of Durban with regard to taking over their supply of electricity. I would also like to know what is the position in regard to the municipality in Johannesburg. I think the idea was to put up a big station further down the line. Perhaps the Minister can tell us how that stands. It was reported in the papers the other day that the Government, had determined to appoint an economic commission to enquire into the economic position of the Union; in fact, the name of one eminent economist in England was mentioned in that connection. Perhaps my hon. friend can now give us some information about this, whether a commission is to be appointed, what purpose it will have, and perhaps he can tell us something about the personnel. Personally I think it is a very right step.

I would like to supplement the question put to the Minister by the hon. member for Boksburg (Mr. McMenamin) in regard to state ownership and control of mines. Having particular regard to the state of employment in the country it is a pity the Government have delayed taking up this question. I understand that the members for Bezuidenhout Valley (Mr. Blackwell) and for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) were congratulating themselves on the door having been bolted by the Government against state mining. Let me tell them that they are congratulating themselvse prematurely. I do not understand that the door has been bolted, but I will say that if it has been, the people behind the Government will insist on the door being opened again, and that very soon. Let me tell the House that although the people will bear many disappointments before they again submit themselves to South African party misrule, the Government should not bank too much upon the antipathy of the people of South Africa to the South African party. Steps should be taken to open out some of these areas as state-owned or state-controlled mines. They should definitely consider the question of opening up these areas themselves. It would set an example to those who run these mines as to how they should really be run; and again, it would free the men working in these mines more and more from the dominance of private people. They would be in the position of being able to work for a state-owned and state-controlled industry. When the question of the Cape Central Railway came along there was quite a lot of support from the South African party side of the House. We did not hear anything about Socialism then. And that being the case, I would urge the Government not to wait until low grade propositions come to them, and beg to be taken over; but to start on their own, now, in connection with the areas still at their disposal, and which the Government has been advised from time to time are well worth taking up. I would draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that gold to the value of £804,000,000 has been extracted from the Witwatersrand area; that £177,000,000 have been distributed in dividends and that for the year 1924 the dividends distributed amounted to £9,500,000. In addition to the question of state mining of gold, there is the question of state mining of coal. In this industry, we have the scandalous position that there are something like 1,600 white persons against 31,000 Asiatics and natives employed. If there is an industry in this country which can provide work for many more white people, it is this one, and I would like to know what steps the Government are taking, and whether they are giving any consideration to the question of opening up some of the coal areas as State undertakings. It has been done elsewhere, and I think it is imperative, both in regard to the future development of power and from the point of view that coal is one of the vital industries of the country, that it should be under the control of the state. I should like also to bring forward the question of the 80,000 natives from Portuguese territory who are employed in the mines. We have been told that if the policy of the Government is to be carried out, there is likely to be unemployment among the natives of the Union. I think the best help we can give to the natives of the Union is to give effect to the pledge that has been given to the supporters of the present Government throughout the country, to stop the recruiting of natives from Portuguese territory. These natives are being introduced to compete with Union natives and to cut down wages, and the practice is contrary to the immigration laws of this country. Perhaps the Minister will tell us how soon the Government will carry out the pledge given in this connection.

I want to return to a matter which has only been touched upon once during the debate—and then not very sympathetically—by the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger), namely, the matter of trade commissioners. I am glad to see that this year the commissioners come under the Department of Mines and Industries. In the past they always fell, I think, under the department of the Prime Minister, namely, the vote—High Commissioner. That was wrong, because it is clear that there cannot be much sympathy between the Department of Mines and Industries and that of the Prime Minister in the matter of trade commissioners. Therefore I am glad of the change. I should like us to go a bit further and alter the portfolio so as to have a Department of Mines on the one side and a Department of Trade and Industries on the other. I do not think that we sufficiently appreciate as yet the importance of our trade in the development of our agriculture, and when I say trade, then I do not so much mean inland trade, but trade relations with overseas countries. As the position is to-day, we have a Department of Mines and Industries with one head. Now the Department of Mines is in itself a large and important department, and most of the time that the head has available will naturally be given to the Department of Mines, consequently the Department of Trade and Industry (as the department should actually be called) does not receive the attention that it deserves. I feel strongly on the matter of trade relations with oversea countries. We find that all progressive countries in the world have appreciated the great importance of oversea trade. We talk about the development of agriculture and industry, but it seems to me that we entirely lose sight of the very important claim that must exist between agricultural and industrial development on the one side and the consumer on the other side. That most important chain is trade. We must appreciate how important that chain of trade between the consumer on the one side and the development of agriculture and industry on the other side is. When we realize this then we shall understand the necessity of the system of trades commissioners in the different parts of the world, where there is a chance of creating trade relations. The hon. member for Cape Town (Central) has not spoken very sympathetically about the matter, and has especially criticised the appointment of the trade commissioner in America, yet he will have to acknowledge, especially in his own business, that he would not be able to extend his trade if it were not by means of representatives throughout the whole country and also overseas. The same thing applies to oversea trade relations. We require for that a proper system of trade representatives. The idea seems to prevail that the work of trade commissioners is only to find markets for produce, but we must not forget that the office of the trades commissioner acts as a sort of information bureau, and further, that when our agriculture and farmers have reached the point of exportation, that necessary information may be then given to them, e.g., with regard to the condition of the market, the class and kind of things that are required, and the manner in which the produce is to be exported, etc. We have to meet the competition of other countries, and therefore we require someone who is fully informed upon this matter and who studies the problems on the spot so that he can notify us the kind of thing in which we may compete with other countries. We shall now probably discuss a new basis of tariffs, and there again our representative, who will open up negotiations on behalf of the Government, will have to protect our interests in order to get special terms, which will become possible if the new tariff proposals are adopted. Then our industries require raw materials that are not present in our own country and that have to come from oversea. Here again a trades commissioner will be able to give information to our manufacturers about the raw material we must import from other countries.

I suppose the Minister of Mines has decided by this time what is going to be the policy in connection with the working of the gold deposits. This is a matter of vital importance to this country, and I reel that, representing a constituency in that area which is most concerned, I cannot allow the occasion to pass without voicing the very decided views which are held by the great majority of the electors in that constituency; otherwise I would not be worthy of their confidence. I was in hopes that, earlier in the session, we would be able to devote more time to this matter—an amount of time which would be more nearly adequate to its importance—but I find now, that through the various vicissitudes of parliamentary procedure, our time is going to be limited. I don’t want to delay the progress of this vote through this House, but I do want the Minister to understand—and I feel sure he does—the importance of the question. If the subject be gone into in all its historic ramifications one might be accused of raising questions which would arouse intense feeling by referring to matters which are not now relevant to it, for the history of gold mining in South Africa simply reeks with malpractices, and with episodes which are of no credit to the country. We hope to get past that stage now, and so deal with the matter in a cool, judicial spirit. We have a statement, which was made in 1916 by the present Government mining engineer, to the effect that by 1934 only 20 of the Hand mines will still be working, and by 1944 the number will have decreased to 11, and so on until the industry is extinguished; always provided, of course, that in the meantime no new properties are opened up. This position was foreseen some years ago, and unsuccessful efforts were made to induce those responsible to open up the gold mining areas and bring them to a state of development, so that they would be able to absorb the men displaced by the exhaustion of the present mines, and also to maintain the country’s revenue. We have now reached a stage when the position of the gold mining industry is exceedingly critical by reason of the failure to provide against that contraction. We have the instance of the Geduld area, which has been open for tenders for years without evoking a satisfactory response. The results of mining operations on that Far East Hand field have proved exceedingly profitable. For instance, Brakpan, which is a leased area, has during 13 years paid dividends totalling 480 per cent. on a capital of £1,020,000. The average dividend has been 37 per cent. per annum. This is an eight pennyweight proposition. Then there is the Geduld Mine, which has been paying dividends for 11 years and has paid 174¼ per cent. on a capital of £1,500,000. These two mines have, at least, 30 years to run. The State Mine has paid to the Government as its share of the profits £4,832,000 and has still 20 years to run. This is a nine dwt. property and has paid dividends over eight years totalling 467½ per cent., the highest being for 1924 with 65 per cent. For that year, after paying 65 per cent. on its capital, it paid Government £1,044,809 as its tribute share. In short, on a capital of £1,400,000. it made a gross working profit of £2,309,740 in 1924. This mine, in addition, is carrying out its expansion capital works out of revenue, and an expenditure of at least £320,000 for this purpose is on their programme for the next year. This is a nine dwt. property. These figures show that there is no great risk in the State itself embarking on gold mining. There are, of course, unpayable patches in all these areas, but they contain plenty of good ground amounting to, at least, 60 per cent. “The South African Mining and Engineering Journal” reports favourably on the Modderfontein East and its development, so favourably that it recommends investors to put their money into it. The report of the inspector of mining leases certainly gives data the reverse of condemnatory. The minimum of payability laid down is 240 inch dwts. In Modder East, immediately to the north of Geduld East, the latest returns disclose 394 inch dwts. Brakpan, West Springs and Springs to the south and south-west, and controlled by the Anglo-American group, show average values of 550 inch dwts. New State Areas (southwest) carries 531 inch dwts. Geduld Mine, immediately to the west, is a seven dwt. property, the profitable working of which I have indicated. That brings one to an aspect of the question other than the scientific, which the Government should consider. It is the ethical aspect. We are morally involved, along with the mining houses, in the success or failure of these ventures in which the public invests its money, and it is a question whether it is altogether fair for the State to leave the opening up of the gold mining areas entirely to private enterprise when we remember that the precious metals are State property, the property of citizens. The urgency of doing something on the Far East Hand is obvious, when it is remembered that it takes at least four years to bring a gold mine to a producing stage preparatory to earning dividends. During the next four years there are going to be many minor crises in the mining industry amongst what are termed “low grade” mines. The whole matter of labour has to be reconsidered, and I would strongly advocate the opening up of these areas immediately, if not by private enterprise then by the State itself.

The hon. member’s time has expired.

I have been requested to again bring a matter to the notice of the Minister regarding the diamonds which may be discovered in the ground below the Premier Mine. I should like to have information from the Minister and also from the hon. member for Standerton (Gen. Smuts) whether ground below the Premier Mine has hitherto been given out in driblets to the diggers who live below that place at Bynestpoort and Elandsfontein. During the election a telegram was read out by the South African party candidate from the leader of the South African party (Gen. Smuts) that if the people there voted for the South African party candidate, he took the responsibility upon himself of saying that the diamondiferous ground would be divided between them.

I just want to point out that the hon. member may speak about the administration under the vote, but not about the telegram which was read out there.

I thought that the purity of politics weighed so much with members opposite that I would receive an answer on this point. There are about 300 families below the Premier Mine which, in a way, earn a living there, but not even sufficient for the purchase of mealie meal. They cannot have their children educated, and they work immediately adjacent to the ground of the Government and of the Premier Mine which is supposed to be rich in diamonds. What is more, that alluvial ground will, in the course of time, be covered by the washed out ground from the mines, and those treasures will consequently be buried. I understand that difficulty exists about proclaiming the ground. The technical difficulty is that the ground was purchased out of the profits of the Premier Mine in which the State has a 50 per cent. share, and the company a 40 per cent. share. The consent of the company must, therefore, first be obtained. Now the hon. member for Beaconsfield (Col. Sir David Harris) has continually spoken here of the philanthropic feeling of the De Beers Company. I admit that he honestly thinks so, but those feelings have not yet found expression. On the contrary it seems to me that they exhibit nothing but selfish material interests. They do not want diamonds to be taken out there and, therefore, they prohibit the people from earning an honest piece of bread. Both the Labour Board and the Board of Control over the diggings have worked hard to try and obtain those areas for the diggers. I am convinced that the Minister will do his best. If he succeeds in putting the matter right 300 heads of families will be able to make their living in such a way that they will later again become successful farmers. Those people are in the hands of De Beers, and I make an appeal to the hon. member for Beaconsfield and Kimberley (Sir Ernest Oppenheimer) to accede to the request of the Minister and agree to the proclamation of the ground, so that that shall not any longer be delayed. If they remain obdurate, then I hope the Minister will introduce a Bill to force De Beers to do their duty to the country.

I understand that the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) has moved to delete the item appearing on this vote relating to the proposed bounty on superphosphates. This matter has been discussed at length by the House on former occasions, and I would like to give the history of this question. The former Government granted protection to this particular industry by issuing a dumping proclamation under which a dumping duty was levied on all superphosphates imported into the Union, a freight dumping duty of 10s. When the present Government took office the matter was investigated and it was decided the dumping duty should be removed to give the farmers fertilizers as cheap as possible, but they realized that it would only be fair if the protection was continued to this industry, and the undertaking of the Government is contained in this letter, which I will read to the committee—

1. 1. Mr. Havenga informed you that the Government had decided to withdraw the so-called freight dumping duty and the so-called sales dumping duty, charged and collected under Proclamation No. 141 of 1923 and 13 of 1923 respectively, on superphosphates.
2. 2. The Minister added that as the Government had no desire to injure industries established in the Union for the manufacture of superphosphates (in fact, they wished to encourage its production in the Union) it had been decided, subject to the sanction of Parliament, to grant your company a bonus equal to 5s. per ton of 2,240 lbs. on the actual sales of straight superphosphates manufactured in the Union, for consumption therein; the bonus aforesaid to operate from the date the proclamations annulling the aforesaid proclamations appear in the “Gazette”; they should be published on Friday, the 26th inst.
3. 3. The Minister also said that 5s. per ton was the maximum amount of the bonus, and that it was based on the protection of 5s. per ton now given the superphosphate-making industry, namely, the difference between the freight payable and that determined by the Government, namely, 17s. 6d. per ton of 2.240 lbs., gross weight, in terms of section 12 (3) of Act 23 of 1923, for example; should the freight rate hereafter be fixed at, 13s. then the bonus would be 4s. 6d., and if at 17s. 6d. then it would cease to operate.
4. 4. The payment of the bonus now and hereafter is, as in the case of all other forms of assistance to industry either by way of protective customs duties, bounties, or a bonus, subject to the will of Parliament.

As hon. members will see, it was stated at the time that as soon as the freight reached 17s. 6d. the bounty would cease. That is now the case. From the beginning of the year, by agreement between the shipping lines, the freight has been raised to 17s. 6d. and so the bonus ceases. There are, however, certain shipments which came forward at the beginning of the year and which were contracted under the old dumping rates, therefore provision must be made in this year’s estimates to meet these claims. That is why provision is now made on the estimates. While the freight remains at 17s. 6d. or over, there is no obligation on the Government to Continue the payment of this bounty. If the freight rate should fall again, then, of course, the question would have to be considered de novo by the Government. Before anything is done the Board of Trade will have to examine the position fully, and the Government will then be advised as to what should be done in future. As the matter stands at present, provision is only made for certain shipments which have come forward on the old arrangement, and which have not yet been paid for in the last financial year. In the circumstances, I trust that the hon. member will see that in terms of our undertaking we shall have to make certain payments still, and that he will withdraw the motion to delete this item from the estimates.

Are these shipments coming forward now at 12s. 6d.? I understand that the rate of freight is now 17s. 6d. Does my hon. friend know that the shipments coming forward are not coming forward at 17s. 6d.?

If they come forward at 17s. 6d., in terms of our undertaking nothing will be paid.

Is the Minister aware that the freight from June 30th will be 22s. 6d. on these phosphates? I cannot see how there can be any payment or any claim made under the present duty, because the freight has been 17s. 6d. for some time.

As I have already said, in all cases where the freight has been more than 17s. 6d. nothing is payable. Only in those cases where the freight was less than 17s. 6d. is the amount of 5s. or a lesser sum paid.

The hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Kentridge) and the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) have asked some questions which I think might more properly be replied to here. The hon. member for Cape Town (Central) enquired in regard to the commission we are going to appoint. The Economic Commission sat in 1913, and since then we have had a tremendous upset of values and gone through all the confusion of the war period and the post-war period. That would be one sound reason for having a good searching investigation into questions relating to wages, earnings and the other difficult problems which are always with us. Added to that is the fact that we are also starting on this Wage Board policy, and, in view of that, it will be an exceedingly useful thing and almost an essential thing to have a thorough investigation. In the first place, I endeavoured to secure the services of Sir George Knibbs. It was very desirable to get someone from outside, as we are all more or less tinged with all the controversies that we have been engaged in. I was not able to secure him, for reasons of health, but he very strongly recommended Mr. T. S. Mills, who is at present serving on a Commonwealth commission. We have secured his services as chairman, and we have also secured the services, of Professor Clay, of the Manchester University. With these as a nucleus, I propose to add one gentleman who may be termed fairly representative of and understanding the employers’ point of view, and another fairly representative of and understanding the employees’ point of view, and to these I shall probably add a fifth, and it is my intention to secure for that position a gentleman who may be destined to be chairman of the Wage Board. I think that that investigation will be a thorough education—I hope it will be an education to all of us—and it will be extremely valuable to the gentleman who is going to occupy that position. In regard to the question raised by the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Kentridge), I can assure him that the Government is by no means forgetful of and by no means lacking in earnestness in regard to the civilized labour policy, the policy of securing as wide a field of employment as possible for men at civilized rates of pay. We are also not unmindful of the fact, as alleged by various objectors to our policy, that that policy in its carrying out may result in certain hardships to the native population, but it is obviously thoroughly anomalous to talk about the danger of the non-employment of our native population while we are continuing to import for labour purposes thousands of natives from outside. This is a matter which is closely connected with the native policy of the Government, and, as the Prime Minister has frequently told the House, it is a matter which is going to be dealt with next session. I won’t go any further now than to say that the Government’s intention, as a first step, is to limit the standing force of natives to what it is at present, and not allow it to increase, and we shall arrest it there, pending further consideration of the matter.

The hon. Minister of Mines has already answered a question by the hon. member for Somerset (Mr. Fourie) about the grant for roads to district mines and his answer was so sympathetic with regard to the matter that I do not wish to go further into it although I had first intended to ask a few things of the Minister with reference to the matter. But I should like to ask the Minister of Mines and Industries a few questions about the discoveries of platinum in my district. In the first place I want to have particulars about the point of view, the position, that platinum now occupies under the Act on metals and minerals. Under the gold law of 1908 only gold and silver were proclaimed as precious metals, but under the previous Government platinum was also proclaimed as a precious metal. So it was decided that platinum was a precious metal and should therefore come under the gold law, but a movement was set on foot in Johannesburg and other districts, and also in my district, to have that decision rescinded and to request the Minister to urge upon the Government that platinum should be regarded as a base metal. Now I wish to ask the hon. Minister whether the Government intend to abide by the decision that platinum should be regarded as a precious metal or whether the slightest chance exists that the request of the people to again proclaim platinum as a base metal will be complied with and that such a proclamation will possibly shortly again be issued. Of course a great difference exists between the application of the law on precious and that on base metals, but I should like to know from the hon. Minister if he can give the assurance that platinum in the future should also be regarded as a precious metal. Further I should like to ask a few questions about the pegging off of the platinum areas in my district and other parts. Under the gold law the position is such that if discoveries are made on a farm then such a farm is thrown open for pegging off of claims after the grant of discoverers’ rights. The throwing open can be done in various ways. In the first place by the pegging of claims, secondly, by lease from the Government or, thirdly, the Government may work the discovery as a State mine. Now I feel that the working as a State mine is quite out of the question. There remains then two other courses which can be followed. Now the general public opinion is. I think, that everyone should be given a chance, even the small man and private people, to benefit by the discovery to make something out of it so that the large companies or capitalists shall not draw all the profit. I think that the desire is reasonable. Therefore I should very much like to know what the Minister is going to do. It seems that the leasing of the fields will not meet with the wishes of the people. The leasing must occur through tenders and those who offer the highest price for working such a mine will have his tender accepted because the Minister is obliged to accept the highest tender. In that case money and the capitalist will again play the greatest part and that is not in accordance with the general wish of the population. There therefore practically remains only the first course, namely, that of pegging. But how is that to take place? During the first year of the gold fields it was perhaps possible to do it by so-called “running.” Then the number of competitors was not so great. The competitors were brought together at one end of the farm and those who could put in their pegs the first on a certain piece of ground had a claim to it. But if to-day seven or eight farms were thrown open then there will certainly be 2,000 people who wish to compete. I am however assured that money and riches will again play a great part in the pegging of claims, because certain rich syndicates have, it is stated, already secured the services of hundreds of the best runners to peg off the claims for them. I fear therefore that this also will not be in the interests of the public.

That shows how well the great capitalists are organized.

Whether the smaller man will get a chance in this way is questionable. But not only the financial factor, but also the nature of the farms, makes it doubtful whether the method of pegging is indeed the best. The farms which will be thrown open are covered with large stones and rocks and overgrown by thorn bushes and even prickly pears, and are criss-crossed with sloots. What will happen in the race? I really do not know. It is said that a large posse of police will be required to maintain order, and people even fear murder and homicide.

I would like to ask the Minister of Mines and Industries whether he will take into serious consideration the advisability of appointing a technical commission to enquire into the Electrical Supply Commissioner’s agreement with the Victoria Falls Company in regard to the power station at Witbank. I hope that when the Minister replies he will put before us the actual position in regard to that arrangement. We are not all quite satisfied with it. First of all we had the Electrical Supply Commission opposing the application of the Victoria Falls Power Company to put up a station at Witbank. Then after a time, curiously enough, the commission no longer objected, but consented to the licence being granted. We had the Marquis of Winchester telling shareholders of the company that now they had made such a splendid arrangement that their future profit was assured. What has the previous Government done through the Electrical Supply Commissioners? The answer given by the hon. Minister to the hon. member for Boksburg (Mr. McMenamin) on the 27th March gives some indication. The amount provided is one and a quarter millions up to date. The previous Government said to the Victoria Falls Power Company: “We won’t let you build a station”; and shortly afterwards were told: “We will not only let you build it but will find you a milion of money to do it with.” It is a most astounding thing that a company shoud have this money provided and then have a 20 years’ lease of the power station built for the Government. This has ceased to be a national enterprise and is handed over to these private people who are supposed to supply power at cost. But the cost, apparently, was to be ascertained after paying 10 per cent. to their shareholders on a capital of which, admittedly, £2,000,000 was “water.” Over a million was for the bogus name “Victoria Falls Power Company,” and we seem to be in this extraordinary position, that we have handed over this valuable concession—a monopoly almost—and if we have the right, as appears to be the case, to take over this concern by paying a certain percentage to the company, I think the Government would be wise to do so, and pay whatever liability there is and carry on power supply as a national enterprise. But before we do that, I think we should have technical advice outside the departments. There are men in this country who could make an investigation and save the Government dropping into the mistake which was made in connection with the Durban grain elevator. That was scandal number one; this Victoria Falls Company business is the second, and the third will be the electrification of the railways in Natal. I appeal to the Government to save their own credit. These mistakes have been made by the previous Government, and unless the present Government make a clear statement we will have a repetition of the elevator scandal, in regard to which Sir Thomas Watt made the extraordinary statement that he would rather be responsible for it than for the report of the commission on it. I press for an independent enquiry. We were promised a report by the chairman of the Electrical Supply Commission (Dr. van der Byl) with reference to more recent happenings, but I find that that report has not yet been put on the Table. The only report which is available is one made by Dr. van der Byl last year, which refers to certain matters in connection with the V.F.P. contract. What we want is something more up-to-date so that we may know where we are. I am afraid it is going to be a troublesome thing before we are finished with the bad business; but the sooner we tackle it the better. In regard to State mining, I am not such an enthusiast as some of my hon. friends are, but I do say that it is up to the Government to take one area and to open an experimental mine. Professor Lawn, one of the greatest authorities on the subject, said that in ten years the gold mining industry will be an attenuated industry, and the son of Sir Lionel Phillips also publicly stated that in ten years it would be an expiring industry. Before that occurs, the Government should take enough money out of the industry to experiment in regard to the possibility of its extension. I therefore hope the Government will open one mine in the East Rand area, and see what can be done with it. Suppose it is a failure in the sense that it does not balance accounts; that would not be entirely a loss. The people in this country would be perfectly satisfied with their gamble, which would not be as bad as some of the gambling on the Stock Exchange. If the Government would give a square deal and ask for money from the public for an honest mine to be run for what it can produce, I am sure the money would be hurled at them. I think there is another thing the Government might do. We ought to have public directors in connection with the Premier Mine in which the Government is interested to the extent of 60 per cent., and also on those gold mines in which the Government has a partnership. For the sake of establishing confidence and the good credit of South Africa, we should have, on every prominent mining company, a public director who would get the fees of a director, and who should report directly to the Government. To-day, all over the world, the South African share market is looked upon with contempt. One of the great bankers in New York, the other day, gave an expression to that effect in regard to its ill repute. That is what representative men, who are supposed to bring capital into the country to develop it—but do not—have brought the reputation of this country to. People do not want to invest in our mines, because they do not get a square deal, and I want that wrong to be put right. The hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) talks about introducing capital to this country; but there is not one of those men I am referring to who has done that for our mines. They have not brought in a shilling—they did not have it to bring. I appeal to the hon. member for Beaconsfield (Col. Sir David Harris) to say whether that is not so. They simply obtained capital by going into the market and saying: “Put up your money; here is a chance for you.” They do not put in their money even of they get hold of the asset. They invite public capital. Let the Minister take that into consideration, and let the Government float a company if necessary, and they will obtain the money required for the experiment without difficulty.

I do not want to take up the time of the House, but we have to do here with one of the foremost industries in the country. I am very glad that the hon. member for Lydenburg (Mr. Nieuwenhuize) has mentioned the position of the platinum fields. I hope that the Minister will tell us whether he abides by the proclamation of platinum as a precious metal. I know that at that time a commission sat on the matter and from the side of the Nationalist party, a proposal came to declare platinum as a base metal. It would be well if we knew what the position of the Government is. It will also be a good thing if the Minister could give ns some information about the mines themselves. We hear all kinds of statements about them. One does not know whether to believe them, although I hope that it will develop into one of the greatest things for the country. We also hear that there will shortly be great running competitions. I know that the Government has to fight against great difficulties in connection with the throwing open of such areas, but I hope that the Minister will do his best to give everybody a chance. It is said that big finances should not come into it. It is useless saying that, because those mines cannot be worked by poor people. I think that the Minister is certainly not at his ease in view of one of his comrades proposing a reduction of his salary.

Do not you wish to do so?

No, I do not wish to do that, I want to help the Minister.

I ask if that is his comrade.

Yes, it is the comrade of the hon. Minister. Is the hon. member ashamed of him? I hope that he will appreciate on what dangerous ground he is in joining up with such a man. Will he go and tell the people in Riversdale that his friends in the corner are anxious for the State to work the mines? That will be the greatest calamity that could happen to us. The Minister of Mines and Industries knows the position of the mines very well, and he will not agree to that, but the hon. member for Riversdale (Mr. Badenhorst) knows nothing about it. The Labour party made an experiment in Johannesburg with a municipal brick factory, and it cost £13 to make 1,000 bricks. They now want the Government to work the mines so that the people can work eight hours per day and draw high wages. If that is not done then they will declare a strike. It is so noticeable that the Labour party are always quarreling with the people who give them their bread. If we had not had the gold mines, what would then have become of these people? I do not want to come here to be the champion of the capitalists, but we get the greatest benefit from the mines, and it is only right that we should acknowledge it. I just want to say this to the Minister that I am glad that he will not follow the advice of the Labour party. The hon. member for Pretoria (West) (Mr. Hay) has said that we should make the experiment of a State mine. I believe that he once made such an experiment. The Minister of Labour also made an experiment with white labour, but nothing came of it. Hon. members labour the question of the importation of natives from Portuguese territory. I want the Government to enquire whether it is not a good thing that those natives are imported. The farmers cannot get labour to reap their mealies as all the natives on the country side would go to the mines to work if we did not have the importation from Portuguese territory. I hope, moreover, that the Minister will give his attention to the search for minerals. Platinum was discovered by chance. It goes that way with our mineral discoveries which, in most instances, are made by farmers. Where are the technical people? The Minister must have more done by boring, etc.

We are very much obliged for the statement made by the Minister of Labour with regard to the appointment of the Economic Commission. It surprises me that the Government did not defer the introduction of the Wage Bill and the new tariff until we have had a report from the commission. Then the Government would have been able to judge what the effect of these two important steps will have on the future of the Union. I think the Government has taken the right step to appoint the commission, but I do think that the Wage Bill and the new tariff will have a detrimental effect and will hamper the development of the country.

The Economic Commission will not be able to sit until the end of July. I have had a cable from the Commonwealth Government stating it is rather doubtful if Mr. Mills will be able to finish his work in time to catch the next steamer, which leaves Australia on June 30th, and it was feared that his departure will be delayed until July 13th. I cabled back urgently pressing that the original plan be adhered to as Professor Clay’s time is very limited. I really cannot agree with, though I understand the hon. member’s objection to this. We ought to have waited for this commission to report before bringing in our Wage Bill. He, no doubt, would have done so. The late Government appointed commissions to find out what policy it should pursue, but we decide our policy first and then appoint commissions to ascertain the best way to carry out that policy, and with the least possible public disadvantages. We do not appoint commissions to fish for a policy. There is no question, as to the policy of the Wage Bill—it is an endeavour to try and uplift the position of the wage-earner and to enforce conditions under which they can support themselves in a civilized way. That is a matter of policy. We are appointing a commission which is going to elucidate a number of difficult matters and will give the Wage Board an enormous fund of information so as to make as few mistakes as possible in carrying out the policy of the Act.

The whole discussion in this debate is concentrated on mines. It shows how little attention the important matter of trade attracts, and how necessary it is to have a separate department of trade and industry. In connection with the matter of trade commissioners. I wish to point out that the costs connected with such a scheme are not so very high and that the trade very much justifies the expenditure. Just look at Canada, the country which has undoubtedly taken the lead in this matter in the world, and especially throughout the British dominions. Canada began with four trade commissioners, and to-day she has 36 of those representatives spread over all portions of the world. Canada undoubtedly regards it as a paying business to appoint trade commissioners. The position is that she considers that representation by a trade commissioner is justified if the costs of such representation do not exceed half per cent. of the trade done with such a country. Even in distant countries such as the Malay States Canada has its trade representative, and the expense there also does not exceed half per cent. Now our trade commissioner’s office on the continent has been moved from Rotterdam to Milan, and it seems to me that however desirable it may be to have representations in the southern portions of Europe, in my humble opinion, the removal was a mistake. We must take into consideration that the conditions in the southern countries are quite different to those in the north. Now I have here the figures of our trade with the chief countries of Europe for 1922 (the last available). Our trade with Belgium, France, Germany and Holland was altogether £6,581,000, and in the same time with Italy the sum of £257,000. In view of the fact, therefore, that our trade so far with the northern countries has put that with the southern countries far in the shade, and taking into consideration the fact that we have in the north the Scandinavian countries with which we do no trade, but where there are certainly also markets for us (and where Canada does very good business), it seems to me wrong to remove our trade commissioner’s office to the south. I agree that more particularly with a view to the success that South Africa obtained at the Milan exhibition we must consider the desirability of appointing a trade commissioner there, but it seems to me wrong where in the past, and still to-day, the vast bulk of our trade is done with the northern countries, to remove the office from Rotterdam or Hamburg to Milan. I do not know what the position of the trade commissioner on the continent is, whether he is under the high commission in London, but if his department is under that in London then I wish to state that I think it is necessary that the trade commissioners should be absolutely independent of each other. The hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) does not apparently approve of the idea that a commissioner is to be appointed in America. In 1922 our trade with America was nearly £2,000,000. Those figures alone justified the appointment of such a trade representative. But we have not to do in that case only with the United States. The man who represents us in America can also give a portion of his attention to Canada. I have here reliable information about the position in Canada from which it appears that there are splendid opportunities for us, especially in fruit. Canada is prepared to take any quantity of our oranges, our citrus fruits, and this in itself is very significant. We did once send fruit to Canada, and it seems that we can deliver it cheaper than California. Canada is anxious to take fruit from us and is prepared to give us special terms. Canada is not anxious to trade with the United States. Then there is a large field for our dried fruit, especially raisins. Canada uses five times the amount of raisins that our whole export is. The country is anxious to have our fruits, and in our country there is still plenty of room for extension of our fruit culture. Then our wines. Recently a consignment was sent to Canada and I am told that there are great prospects for us. To this must be added raw material such as china clay and corundum and felspar, things which attract no attention at all in our country, but which Canada requires. If we look at Japan, with which Canada also carries on a big trade, then we see there, too, the necessity for extending our market. Our trade with Japan was only £196,000 in 1922. The list of things that we export to England is a fairly long list, but if we look at the list for the continent then we find that only three articles appear. It is important to develop the list of exports direct to the continent. I hope that the appointment of the trade commissioner in America will not be long delayed.

The hon. member for Pretoria (North) (Mr. Oost) has mentioned the position of the diggers at Bynestpoort. I have met those diggers and the position is as he has pointed out. That piece of ground belongs to the Premier mine. Sixty per cent. of the mine belongs to the Government and 40 per cent. to the company, inasmuch as the ground was bought from the profits of the Premier mine. The people are now asking that those grounds shall be thrown open because most of the diggings that were there are already worked out, and the people cannot make a living. Besides the Premier mine is busy covering up the ground with its washed out ground. If the grounds are given out we shall not only provide a means of existence to the people there but also to many other people who have no livelihood. The hon. member for Lydenburg (Mr. Nieuwenhuize) has mentioned the “charging” to peg off platinum claims. I regard it as an unsatisfactory state of affairs and I think it will be better if the Minister has a lottery for the claims. It will not lead to so much annoyance and mishaps. Then I come to the gold mines. I am sorry that the hon. member for Johannesburg (North) (Mr. Geldenhuys) has dragged in party politics and insulted people. It is one of the most important industries in the country and when we discuss it in the House we should try to do so for the benefit and prosperity of the country. There will, of course, be a difference of opinion. The Government has invested £120.000.000 in the railways of the country. It is a business, and it pays. I am therefore in favour of the Government making an experiment with one of the mines on the East Rand. I think it will pay better than the railways. The claims are there hired by the companies and after paying all expenses they make millions out of it. The State possesses the richest gold fields there and it will therefore be in a better position to make the development thereof pay. If the Government can invest £120 000,000 in the railways such an experiment will not be a failure.

I just want to add a few words to what I have already said about the pegging of claims. I have indicated the difficulties and even the dangers connected with pegging by running. The hon. Minister is doubtless fully aware of what the position is. I have always had the feeling, and it is held by many in the Transvaal, whether it would not possibly be better to give out the claims by a lottery. Such a thing is not entirely unknown. In the Transvaal in 1898 and 1899 such a lottery was instituted and thousands would have taken part in it but unfortunately war broke out in October, 1899, and then nothing could be done about the claim lottery. Now it is said that the Government and a great portion of the population are against the lottery, I may say on moral grounds; yet I wish to point out that a lottery for claims is quite a different thing to a State lottery or other lotteries for prizes, because there is no entrance fee in this ease and so no money can be lost. It is not gambling. Every one has a right to a certain portion of the minerals of our country so I do not believe that such action can be condemned on moral grounds. Great, difficulties are connected with it but I believe that the hon. Minister is able to find a way to have it done in a just manner. I should be glad to know what the Minister thinks about this. Then I shall also be glad to know whether the Minister has as yet fixed the time when the throwing open of the farms will take place, because hundedsr and thousands of people are looking forward to the day when that will happen. I should much like to have a definite answer from the Minister on this point.

I see under the general heading an item: district mine development for which the amount of £4,000 is put down. I understand from the Minister that this amount has been brought down from £10,000 because no demand has come in under that head. I should like to ask if the Minister will not see that half of that amount should be granted to the places around Barkly West, e.g., Windsorton. It should be used there to lay on water for the diggers so that it will not be necessary for the people to go to the diggings at Hopetown to make a living. They will then be able to make a living at Windsorton. I shall plead for the diggings as long as they exist and as long as there is no other way out for the people. There are many of them who cannot be employed in the Government service. There are many of them who have made a living for 40 years on the diggings and who know no other trade. I shall plead for the diggings as long as there are approximately 30,000 people making an honest living there. They should be helped, especially when we notice that they pay on the average from £70,000 to £80,000 per annum to the treasury in taxes on the alluvial diamonds.

Before the Minister replies I want to say a word on the question of platinum. Several members have shown themselves anxious to get him to remove platinum from the category of precious metals, but I hope he will not do anything of the sort. Mr. Malan, when Minister of Mines and Industries, issued a proclamation two or three years ago, declaring platinum to be a precious metal, as undoubtedly it is. If that proclamation did not come within the definition clause in the gold law, then it was competent for any person considering himself aggrieved to have brought a test case, and to have had the illegality established. As no such case has been brought, we may assume that such persons must have taken advice, and found that the proclamation was legal. I hope the Minister of Mines will continue the policy of Mr. Malan. Undoubtedly, platinum should be in the category of precious metals, and the State should get the benefit of the development of platinum to which it is entitled. I should be glad to know whether the Minister, himself, or through his department, has followed this platinum boom that we have in the Transvaal, because some of these companies which have grown up over night have been floated in many cases, I fear, on a very slender foundation. Perhaps the Minister may not know it, but nearly all these companies formed to exploit minerals in the Transvaal were registered in the Free State. They have taken advantage of the laxity of the company law in the Free State, and it is one of the lamentable consequences of failing to pass a new companies’ law that that has been possible. Through the laxity of the Free State laws they have been able to do many things in the Transvaal which the Transvaal law does not permit. We have not reached the end of the platinum chapter, but I fear there is going to be a day of reckoning to come, and a great many people-will suffer loss—I do not say when the bubble bursts, because that would probably be incorrect, but when the inevitable reaction comes, a great many people will find that they have burnt their fingers. A new Companies’ Act is within the province of the Minister of Justice, but it is a matter which affects the Minister of Mines, and I should be glad if he would use his influence to see that it is put on the statute book as soon as possible, so that when companies are floated, it is done on proper lines and a proper safeguard is provided for the public.

I would be glad if the Minister would give us some more information than he has given us up to now, with regard to the new item of £4,000 in reference to a trade commissioner in America. Of course, America is a wide term, but I gather this refers to the United States. I should be glad if he would seriously consider whether it is really worth while spending this money. I understand the appointment has not yet been made. I do not know exactly in what way it is proposed to extend trade with America in view of their definite policy of putting on a high protective duty. I should like to quote some opinions expressed with regard to similar ideas on trade with Australia—

That is the sort of thing that goes on with any exports to America. The Minister should seriously consider as to whether it is really worth while to go to this expenditure of £4,000 a year on what I am afraid is a hopeless quest. Perhaps he will inform us as to what are the items he expects to trade in. There are already high duties against wool and mohair, and against everything we have that we wish to export. I am of opinion it would be a waste of money.

I quite agree with the hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell) with regard to platinum. It is not a base metal; it is more valuable than gold to-day. I have not seen anything in these prospectuses that they have designated platinum as a base metal. I have seen the prospectus of one company with a capital of £1,600,000. If anyone said it was ridiculous to float base metal with a capital of £1,600,000, those gentlemen behind that concern would be very wrath, hurt and offended. No doubt certain company-mongers are taking advantage of this discovery of platinum in the Transvaal—which I hope will prove a great success in the interests of the country—for the purpose of floating worthless concerns upon the public. I wish there were some machinery in this country to protect the public against the flotation of bogus concerns. Some years ago I said in this House that I thought it was the duty of the Government to appoint some officer to criticize or approve of the prospectuses issued by those companies, and thus protect the public. I am sorry the hon. member for Pretoria (West) (Mr. Hay) is not in his place, but I can deal with his remarks later.

A Government director would not be a bad plan.

There is nothing to my mind which injures a country so much, and prevents people speculating and putting their money in a country, as those bogus companies that are periodically floated, and so the Government should appoint some reliable person either to refute the statements, or approve of the statements made in these prospectuses for the protection of the public who have no doubt lost many millions of money through being floated without any prospects whatever.

I wish to mention two matters which I consider of vital importance and upon which I should be glad if the Minister would make a statement. One is the Government’s policy of industrial development, and the other is the opening of markets in other parts of Africa. We have heard quite a lot about the way in which the Government is going to aim at the distribution of the national dividend. I should like to ask what the Government proposes to do to create the national dividend before that dividend is distributed. When, the Government came into power, there were a few industrial eggs in the departments, particularly in the Mines and Industries Department, and those industrial eggs were laid there by commissions appointed by the former Government with the object of increasing our national dividend. One of these commissions was the advisory board of science and industries which, I believe, sat for some years and presented a report. That report was the basis of an economic policy to be carried out by the Government, and I understand the late Government went some distance in the direction indicated in the report. Subsequently another departmental committee was appointed from the Minister’s department, I believe, in March, 1924, and it consisted of the Government mining engineer, the technical adviser to the Department of Industries, and, I believe, the inspector of mines at Pretoria. The terms of reference-were as follows—

A very commendable programme, and certainly in reading through the report of this committee, which is contained in the April issue of the “Journal of Industries,” I think it is a good report and one I strongly commend to the attention of the Government. In the course of this report, which, of course, deals chiefly with mining, the committee draws attention to the manner in which the industries and the mining of this country are treated in comparison with the agricultural portion of the community. In paragraph 12 the commission stated—

As the committee points out, the mining industry is the fly-wheel of our economic life, and it is because that revolves steadily that we can manage to get through the floods, droughts and locust visitation, and other pests that come along, and it seems a forward policy to exploit our mineral resources. But it is more in connection with the industrial side that I rose to speak. The committee deals with the coal and iron industries and suggests that if these are properly developed the result will be as follows to South Africa—

And the committee then goes on to point out that the Government should adopt a policy of trying to introduce manufactures from abroad, to fix their establishments here in South Africa. Clause 52 reads as follows—

That is the point I want the Minister to give us some information about, namely, what the Government proposes to do to induce the installation of factories in this country. Manufacturing industries are very easily created; given the locality, the necessary raw material and labour, there is only one essential requisite and that is the assurance of a profit, and that assurance can be given by a Government which sets itself to industrial development, but if our eyes are fixed entirely on the regulation of the industry before it is created, the industry will never be created. I am afraid there is a large section of opinion in this country running in the direction that they would rather see a population in rags than see a few rich men. Some think it is better to have a poor white class than that Government should run the risk of making a few rich men by offering them any rewards for the establishment of industry. I think, personally, the evil of the existence of the large poor white class is greater than the possible creation of a few rich men, and I do think that without a subsidy of some kind, not necessarily through the customs, which will guarantee a profit to the skilled organizers, we shall not make much progress in industrial development. The competition which we have to face from abroad; the lack of natural communications; lack of skill; lack of money, and our lack of machinery, impose so great a handicap upon the establishment of industry that without Government aid we cannot expect it. I do not think the present trend of legislation, without the other end of the scale being watched, is going to lead to confidence at all in the industrial development of South Africa, but with the guarantee of a profit, there is not the slightest doubt that industry can be created. It seems to me that in restricting our outlook entirely to the wage end of the business we are losing sight altogether of one of the main functions to which Government should turn its mind. If we can create the goods we can pay the wages. [Time expired.]

The administration of the Weights and Measures Act is a matter to which more attention should be given. The introduction of this measure has led to the saving of a tremendous amount in respect of short weight that has been imposed upon the public in the past. In one of the large towns alone it is estimated that there has been a difference of £25,000 per annum as the result of the improved condition of things under the Act. There is one point to which I should like to draw the Minister’s attention. In Durban, which was one of the towns formerly provided with an assizing department of its own, the town council is unable to obtain any information from the central assizing officer with reference to the weights and measures that are assized in Durban. The town clerk of Durban recently wrote to the director of assizing a letter, in the course of which he said—

The medical officer of health at Durban has been instituting enquiries into the price of bread, and he found a good deal of difference in the weight of the loaves tested. He wanted to check bis enquiries through the local assize officer, but was unable to get the necessary information owing to the assize department at Pretoria having an insufficient staff. Without the assistance of the local Government the effectiveness of the Weights and Measures Act will be very largely neutralized in the principal towns of the Union. There is another point. One of my farming constituents has pointed out that recently the department has been willing to send an officer to test any scales capable of weighing over 600 lbs., but in respect of scales whose capacity is below that figure it is necessary to send them to a centre to have them examined, Owing to the bad roads over which the scales have to be conveyed in Natal it frequently happens that when scales have been sent to a town to be examined, by the time they get back to their owners they are out of order again. Numerous instances have occurred where scales found to be correct by the assizer have been discovered to be out of order again before they got back to the farm. I hope the concession that has been granted of sending an officer to test the scales on the spot will be extended to all platform scales. Then the assize officer has been rejecting scales weighing in units of 112 lbs., as he maintains that the law recognizes only the 100 lb. unit. I hope that will not be made a hard and fast rule, for there are many good scales weighing on the unit of 112 lbs. or fractions thereof that should be passed as they are quite capable of weighing 100 lbs., and the rejection of these scales entails a heavy loss to the farmer.

I hope when the Minister replies he will be a little bit bolder on the question of the importation of natives from the East Coast, than the Minister of Labour was. Eighty thousand natives from Portuguese territory are competing with Union natives on the goldfields, and if we are not going to allow any more to come in we are not going to be in a better position than we have been for a long time past. The reply of the Minister of Labour fell very far short of the attitude he used to take up on this question when he sat on these benches. It is only fair that we should say this, for the evil of Mabongism, characteristic of the South African party, has not yet crept into the Pact parties. I am glad that attention has been drawn to the Electricity Commission, and I should like to know how much longer the Johannesburg Town Council is to be held up in respect of its power station. It has been held up on this point for an unwarranted time, and without any reasonable excuse. The Electricity Commission has committed itself to the Victoria Falls power station, a private trust working in conjunction with the gold mining industry, and as a result it has discouraged the Johannesburg municipality from establishing its own power station. We are not only at one with the policy supposed to be underlying the Electricity Act, but we are anxious to see it carried out to the fullest possible extent, so that the generation and distribution of electrical power and energy should be a national affair. Unfortunately the Electricity Commission is not working on that basis, but is seeking to drive Johannesburg into the Witbank scheme. Small municipalities have been refused supplies by the Electricity Commission, apparently because ho profit was to be made out of the transaction, but Johannesburg being a big consumer the commission is very anxious to supply it. The objection that the people of Johannesburg generally put forward—and on that point the South African party, the Nationalists and the Labour members of the town council, are all agreed—is that as far as Johannesburg is concerned it is entitled to have its own source of supply. The Electricity Commission instead of exercising its power and saying “We are going to establish a general power station”, did not do so. In the first instance it opposed the application of the Victoria Falls Power Company for a licence. When they opposed this application, the V.F.P. was in a precarious position. The contracts with the mining houses were falling due, and it was impossible for the Electricity Commission to step in and start a national scheme thus securing the right to supply the mining houses, as well as the municipality of Johannesburg end the whole of the Reef. It then withdrew its opposition and immediately the V.F.P. fixed up new contracts with the mining companies. The commission committed themselves to the V.F.P. to the extent of enabling the company to build a power station at the national expense. The mining houses are saving £200,000 per annum as a result of the reduced prices. The price charged for mining houses is .53d. per unit whereas another company which is supplying power to its own group on the Rand is in a position to supply it at .31d. per unit.

That is all exploded, it is incorrect.

The officials have exploded it so far as he is concerned, but instead of listening to the officials, if he had made an independent enquiry he would have found the policy of the Johannesburg council was a right one and that the figures I mention are accurate and the figures and policy given to him by the officials are not in the best interests of the country.

From experience I know there is a great shortage of native labour in the Union. One small company with which I am concerned has been compelled to stop many of its machines in consequence of the shortage of native labour. I and others, would be only too glad to secure all our native labour from the tribes within the Union, but that is impossible, There is not sufficient labour at the present time to be procured from the natives in our own territory. The result is that a considerable amount of mining work has been reduced in consequence of the shortage. We are not like some of the mines in Johannesburg which are on the margin of loss and profit, but we are able to maintain all our whites. Although there is a shortage of 500 natives at Jagersfontein, we have given instructions that no white man must be dismissed. I wonder what would be the position to-day if we had not 80,000 natives from the Portuguese territory. I dread to think of the unemployment among the white people in Johannesburg if the policy of keeping out the Portuguese native were adopted by any Government. The greater the number of natives who get work in this country, the better for the white man. In the interests of the white workers, if you can’t get a sufficient number of natives to work within the Union of South Africa, you must import them from Portuguese East.

The hon. members on the cross benches and the hon. Minister of Labour has always taken up the position that the importation of natives should be stopped, but they never ask themselves what would become of the farming population in the Transvaal. If the importation is stopped, and all the natives in this country are used for the mines, where must our farmers get their labour from. From the five million natives, approximately, which there are in our country, about three million work only for three months a year in the Union. If the mines draw all the natives that are willing to work in the mines, and we do not import more natives, then I do not know what will become of our farmers. We feel that we must support the Government if it brings in labour from beyond the Union, because we require them to reap our harvests. It is impossible for us to do the work with white people. Hon. members on the cross benches say that we are only out for cheap labour.

And hon. members of the Opposition complain furiously if we employ white people on the railways.

I do not say that natives should be imported for railway work. I am speaking of the farming population. We must see that we get as cheap labour as possible, because we get such low prices for our produce that it is not possible for us to employ whites for our work. If the hon. Minister can enable us to get better prices for our produce then we should possibly be in a position to employ whites, but to-day it is impossible. Any farmer, who has an idea of farming, knows that. I have, myself, a few white men on my farm, but to say that I must do without native labour is impossible. Then we talk about fertilizer here. The farmers in the Transvaal use a great deal of fertilizer nowadays. They have found out that very good results can be obtained in that way. But, notwithstanding the fact that the Government have given a bonus to those who make the fertilizer, the prices have mounted. I want the Government “to go into the matter. It is no use giving a bonus to the fertilizer factories if fertilizers go up in price. I wish to ask the Minister to have the matter enquired into to see whether it is not better to again have free trade in fertilizer, so that the prices can come down.

I would like to finish the remarks I was making and impress upon the Minister and, through him, upon the Government, that they must have regard to the producing capacity of this country as well as the spending capacity. I wonder if the Minister is aware that we have too many people in this country who are living upon the services, upon the productions, of other people. Of those who are engaged in various occupations and avocations, as shown by the recent census, over 50 per cent. are living on non-productive services. If that means anything, it means that the productive capacity of this country is brought about by about a quarter of a million white people. A quarter of a million producers are carrying the rest of the white population on their backs. I am not here speaking of the natives. The Government are proceeding in the direction of creating more and more services for the purpose of allowing these people to take more and more out of the pile of production which those quarter of a million are producing; and no legislation regarding wages will, if this tendency goes on, bring about a better standard of living. One of the elementary things the Government must do, in common with the desire also to bring about a better-standard of living, is to see that there is more production, and if there is not more production nothing the Government can do can relieve the position. Our distributing class is out of all proportion to our population. I do not think there is another country in the world with such a great number of distributors as we have. This distributing class is, itself, the most enterprising, the most intelligent and the most capable portion of the population, and if 50 per cent. or that class could be turned over to productive energies the whole outlook of this country would be quite different. When we come to the question of the creation of industries, we are met by the free traders with the remark that there are no markets. That seems an extraordinary thing to say of a continent on which there are 100 million people who are daily growing in their demands for the things that we can manufacture. The consuming capacity of the native is growing more and more. Why should we not send somebody to the Congo or subsidize vessels to call at African coast ports to find new markets for the boots and other things that we manufacture? Why are we letting the whole world get in and capture these markets, instead or capturing them ourselves? Markets have to be fought for, courted and won, like other things in life. If we are content to sit down at this end of the continent and take no heed of the development that is going on in the north while we are trying to build up amongst ourselves manufacturing industries for markets only amongst ourselves, we shall never expand. There is our market. We have easy communication, our railway lines take us right into the heart of Africa. We should be manufacturing rails in South Africa which would spread railway development throughout the whole of the country. The trade of British Central Africa alone, those countries under British rule, is over £100,000,000 a year. That is something which we can capture, something that we can get into. We have a trade commissioner in Kenya. What are we doing about Tanganyika? What are we doing in the Congo? We could produce most of the articles which are taken into that country. I do think that if we are going to develop as a manufacturing country we have to do two things. We have to create our industries in the face of the world’s competition, and we can only do that by great thought and stimulation, and we have also to seek for markets. Our markets are at our doors, and it needs the earnest attention and determination of the Government to secure those markets. We are giving our youths bursaries and sending them to America to study various matters in agriculture. Why should we not give them bursaries and send them round Africa to study the trade developments, to spy out the openings for our goods, to be in the know with everything going on, to act as our advance agents. I commend these points to the Minister.

On Friday evening, in reply to the hon. member for Caledon (Mr. Krige), the Minister stated that he had taken steps to appoint a commission to enquire into the matter of harbourage and so forth in connection with the fishing industry. I would like to know if he can give us any information as to what those steps are, whether a commission has been definitely appointed and, if so, what is the personnel of the commission and its terms of reference.

It was appointed the other day, after your resolution in the House.

A commission was definitely appointed?

Yes.

I would like to know from the minister what the terms of reference of that commission are. I have already asked the Minister what the personnel of the commission is. The matter is of far greater importance than merely supplying shelters or harbourage on the coast; it goes deeply into the whole question of the development of our fishing industry in South Africa. We have in South Africa various fishing banks, and I think that we should try and develop the harbours that are nearest to those banks, instead of making the trawling fleets travel the long distances that they have to do now in order to get harbourage after their operations in the fishing grounds. According to the figures for the last year that I have been able to obtain, the value of fish landed in South Africa was £370,000, and at the same time we were importing into South Africa £340,000 worth of fish. We ought to be able to supply the whole needs of South Africa from our own fishing grounds, and have a surplus for export. We are in a much more favourable position geographically and climatically, as far as the fishing industry is concerned than Great Britain is, because our fishing banks lie near the coast, while the trawlers in Great Britain have to proceed enormous distances in order to reach the fishing grounds of the White Sea, Ireland and the Newfoundland Banks, and with far worse weather conditions to contend with. Having regard to this, I say that we are neglecting the proper development of one of the most fruitful forms of revenue that this country ought to have, and one of the industries most worth developing. The hon. member for Bloemfontein (North) (Mr. Barlow) said “hear, hear,” when I said I did not want to refer particularly to my own constituency, but I will say that the constituency I have the honour to represent has one of the finest fishing banks off the coast of this country; but the trawlers have to come 75 miles from either side to fish, and on the one side they have to go into an open roadstead for harbourage, and on the other they have to go north to East London. By the expenditure of a moderate sum of money we have the chance of making an exceedingly good harbour for the use of trawlers and other fishing craft. Last year, when I raised this question, I received a reply which was rather surprising; that was that the fishing boats on the Kowie River were too few, and went out too seldom for it to be worth while to do anything in the way of dredging the harbour mouth. The real reason for that state of affairs is that there is not suitable harbourage to shelter such boats. I can assure the Minister that if we had proper facilities it would make for cheaper food and the great development of this industry in South Africa. There is another matter to which I should like to refer. On June 5th there appeared in the “Cape Times” an item of news from Grahamstown stating that Sir George Cory, one of the best-known chemists we have, had discovered, with others, a deposit of phosphate quite near Grahamstown. His analysis revealed from 9.1 to nearly 10 per cent. of the valuable phosphate elements required in the soil. Mr. Stead, another well-known chemist in the Department of Agriculture, showed that the quantity of phosphoric oxide was 11 per cent. We have just been hearing of the necessity for artificial fertilizers for our soil in South Africa, which we know is poor soil on the whole. Here is an opportunity of discovering what further we do possess in the way of phosphates, and I would suggest to the Minister that he should make careful enquiry from a departmental point of view as to what the possibilities are. Sir George Cory said this phosphate could be applied to the land without the necessity of the elaborate chemical processes necessary in the case of certain other phosphates produced in South Africa. It was also stated, however, that there had been an adverse report on the discovery by Dr. du Toit, and I would like the Minister to let us know what this report was, so that we can see on what grounds it was made. It seems to me a pity that a promising discovery should be stillborn, because we have an adverse report, perhaps made hastily, while on the other hand, we have the favourable reports of the analytical chemists on the spot. I do not ask the Minister to embark on a wild cat scheme, but I do want to know what the facts are. It has struck me as being of sufficient importance not only to that area, but to the whole of the country to warrant careful investigation and that whenever we find materials that will increase our production, it is up to us and the Government to assist and explore such a discovery by every means in their power.

I should like to bring something to the notice of the Minister, namely, the labour that we require for the farming industry. As far as I can understand, the Portuguese mine workers are being excluded by the present Government. When we heard that something like that was on foot a deputation from the Eastern Transvaal went to the Minister of Labour. The people came back disappointed. I should very much like the Minister to understand how difficult things are on the country side. I received letters from my constituency that the people cannot get any labour at all. The Minister of Mines and Industries must consider this matter, and he must state if it is true that the importation of Portuguese natives has been stopped, and what the result of that will be to the mealie harvests.

If it is true that what has been stopped?

The importation of Portuguese natives. It was always a fact that the workers were sent to Johannesburg. There they are examined. Some go to work in the mines and others are permitted to take service with the inhabitants. There are farmers in my constituency who employ 400 natives to get in the harvest. They have been told to employ more white people. I should like to know what will happen if the farmer has to employ so much white labour. It means that he will kill farming. The Minister of Mines and Industries knows the requirements of the Transvaal. The Minister of Labour does not know them, and I look to the former to give his attention to the matter and to put the Minister of Labour right. I hope that the Minister will give me an answer so that I can tell the people what the position is. Only the other day I received another letter from one of my constituents that the harvests were ripe, but that he could get no labour.

In the matter of State mines, the question which the Minister and the Government have to consider is not so much the payability of these areas as the financing of them. Their payability is beyond question. If, say, the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) or the hon. member for Kimberley (Sir Ernest Oppenheimer) wanted a guarantee for a loan in some market, and had the choice of two guarantors, the one a financial house in America, Germany, France or Britain, and the other the South African Government, with its resources of natural assets, production and taxation, I think on the basis of absolute security of guarantee they would choose the South African Government. The hon. member for Cape Town (Central) expressed the opinion that the taxpayers would be intensely relieved to know that the Minister does not intend an immediate embarkation on State mining. I do not see that there is much point in the remark made by the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) on this matter. The taxpayers must be relieved to know that the Minister looks with a cold eye on State mining in these Far East Rand areas, because we have, in so far as we have partially adopted State mining, reinforced our revenue very largely from the proceeds of that mining, and we know that at the present time and during the next few ensuing years there will be enormous demands on our credit and financial resources to carry on the development to which this Government is committed. I do not think we should, without grave consideration, put aside any proposal which promises fair ground for supplementing our revenue and keeping our profits in this country. When we want money to finance schemes of unemployment relief and irrigation development, we go overseas to borrow, and the money we borrow there is money which has gone from this country. This country exports its profit, which is chiefly on minerals, and now we find money which has been obtained in profits from the mines is being sent to finance railway construction in Spain and being devoted to developing cotton growing in the Soudan, which is being done on a huge scale and which has been subsidized by the British Government to the extent of something like £16,000,000, and in the Soudan there is no question of expensive labour, as it is cheaper than the native labour in this country. I desire here specially to direct the attention of those Opposition members who are interested in cotton growing to this fact. Your work and investments in cotton growing are being menaced by the competition of the Soudan growers—Federated British Industries, in which a principal promoting party is Sir Lionel Phillips. Through him the profits on mining in the Union are being used to compete against Union cotton growers, with circumstances of labour and proximity of market militating against South Africa. The loss of your capital is going to react against you when you wish to develop your more permanent resources in agricultural and pastoral pursuits, etc. Then we have the matter of the financing of our national power units. There again we look oversea for the money. According to the hon. member for Cane Town (Central) the profit-exploiter or profit-investor puts up a matter of £800,000 in a venture before he sees a sixpence of return. I would like to quote from the remarks of Mr. W. S. Webber at the annual meeting of the “Johnnies.” The “Johnnies” who control—not those who invest! (Mr. Webber says—

Thereby disposing of the contention that £800.000 was put up by any individual or few individuals before there was any prospect of a return. The first actual working cash capital is found by the public. He goes on to remark in regard to the subsidiary companies—

That goes to substantiate the argument that few of the original shareholders live long enough, as individuals or as shareholders, to participate in the distribution of profits, and the whole system of financing these companies calls for enquiry. I shall be glad if the Minister will give this House some assurance that, during the recess, steps will be taken to institute an enquiry into the whole method of financing these companies; such an enquiry is imperatively called for because of the methods by which the money put up by the public, when the shares are first issued, is dealt with by the controller, and finally the manner in which the shareholders are frozen out by the reduction in the value of the shares and these companies, in practice, ceded to the debenture holders, who are the controlling houses, who thus acquire, with a minimum of risk, proved and developed properties. I think in the great majority of instances where companies are producing a profit, it is for the debenture shareholders. In regard to the general payability of the Rand mining industry, according to the Government mining engineer s report, we must assume that the amount of capital sunk in Rand mining—I do not mean the amount subscribed to that mining—cannot be in excess of £65,000,000, and yet we are producing from £41,000,000 to £42,000,000 per annum of gold, equal to 64.6 per cent., and we get £15,000,000 profit out of these mines per annum, equal to 24.6 per cent. on actual capital value. I will quote from Sir Evelyn Wallers, speaking at the annual meeting of Rand Mines held on Thursday, 3rd June. He said—

If these parent companies do not make any profit whatever they will still be payable propositions, because they are the controlling factor in the subsidiary mines and influence output and market in their own interest. According to Sir Evelyn Wallers, it would seem that the Rand mining house was in a rather precarious position. He refers to the loss of 6s. 3d. per fine oz. of gold produced due to disappearance of premium, and says working costs must be pulled down, and this loss of premium must be made up in greater efficiency. We know what greater working efficiency means on the Rand. It means an attack on wages. [Time expired.]

In connection with the Minister’s reply in regard to the Cinderella mine, seeing he was so obviously pleased with the anticipated amalgamation, I am sorry to put a damper on his ardour, and to say the great prospective wave of happiness into the Boksburg district, because of his statement, will be absolutely unfulfilled. It will leave the inhabitants of the district absolutely stone cold. The Cinderella has probably 20 years’ life, and for the time being it is of no practical advantage to the community at all if it is only going to be worked after the E.R.P.M. is exhausted. The fact will be if the E.R.P.M. succeeds in the amalgamation that it will employ not 50 men extra. If the Cinderella works on its own account, it will employ a minimum of 350 men. I hope the Minister will not have many more successes of this sort; for a few more amalgamations of this nature will mean a reduction in the number of white men employed on the Rand mines by about one-third. But I am rather special that even this small success which he expects will be brought about. There have been rumours of re-opening every year for 13 years, but the Minister hearing of them for the first time believes them. Supposing this is going to be another disappointment, is the Minister going to place any time limit on the further negotiations. And supposing this agreement is ratified, is he going to stipulate that these two large areas have to be worked jointly, or is he going to allow the E.R.P.M. to work out its own area first, an operation which may take twenty years? If he does allow that, he will be doing a grave disservice to the country. If he has to agree to the amalgamation I hope he will stipulate that both areas will be worked simultaneously as to State mining, we don’t begrudge the members on the other side their bit of pleasure at thinking that the Government’s policy on this point coincides with their own. The Minister, however, was very careful not to commit the Government either for or against State mining. The misunderstanding was no doubt brought about by a remark of the Minister. I quoted a statement by the Government Mining Engineer, showing that there was lying idle mineral wealth to the value of £450,000,000, but the Minister said that that estimate was made a few years ago, and he thought that in the meantime the results had been disappointing and did not bear out the estimates. I would like to join issue with the Minister on that. There has been only one instance where the result has been disappointing, but in all the other cases success has been achieved. Let us suppose that there is some uncertainty as to the value of these areas, that is all the more reason why the Government should try to ascertain their real worth, instead of allowing us to continue to live in a fool’s paradise. Under State mining it will be quite easy to explore the areas surrounding different mines, but with the group system this is difficult. The Government should, in, these circumstances place a substantial amount on the estimates for the sinking of bore holes on the Rand so as to prove the matter beyond doubt. The cost could be added to the price of the ground, if it is sold or leased, but should the ground not be gold-bearing, why then for the sake of South Africa’s good name, the areas should not be disposed of. With regard to the Boksburg Gap the main reef absolutely disappears there for about 6 miles. I certainly think it is the duty of the Government to endeavour to locate the reef in this gap, and if it succeeds in doing that no doubt a very valuable area would be opened up. Having ventilated the opening of my constituents and myself on the question of State mining I will, with permission of the committee, withdraw my amendment.

I wish to ask the Government to make a definite statement as to its policy on the question of the importation of Mozambique labour. We, on the cross benches, have always been against the importation of natives from Portuguese Africa and have put it forward as one of the biggest things on our platform, while the hon. member for Yeoville (Mr. Duncan) has always taken up the attitude that it would be better for South Africa if the natives from Mozambique were prevented from coming here. The Minister of Labour frequently stated that was his policy when he was in opposition. We would like to know what exactly is going to be done in this matter by the Government. I admit the hon. member for Beaconsfield (Col. Sir David Harris) knows more about the mining position than I do and is probably a better business man, but I cannot agree with him when he says that if we stop the importation of natives from Mozambique province, it is going to be bad for the white man. I was surprised to hear from him that certain machines could not be worked at Johannesburg, because the necessary native labour was not available. During a recent debate in this House it was stated—I think by the hon. member for Tembuland (Mr. Payn)—that there was a good deal of unemployment amongst the natives who lived in the Union. One of the strongest arguments against the colour bar was that its application would further increase unemployment. The Opposition has thus been blowing hot and cold in the same breath. We hear the cry about the farmers. I am not frightened about farmers not getting labour. There are a lot of farmers working their farms with white labour and doing particularly well out of it.

Have you tried it?

I must confess I have not tried it, but I am not like the hon. member, born with a farmer’s silver spoon in his mouth. We want the Government to stop the importation of these natives into the country. If the natives want to go to the mines let them go, but if there are sufficient white men let them go on to the farms and the mines. Natives are not only coming in from Portuguese East but from Rhodesia, and the Rhodesian Parliament is protesting against it. We bang, bar and bolt the door against the bringing of white people into South Africa. There is not one Government that has been in power in South Africa that has not barred the door against white people. We have lost more whites than we have gained in South Africa and yet we allow as many natives as like to come in. We are encouraging them to come in and we send people out to fetch them in. What a hullaballoo there would be from all sides if we sent out agents to bring in the white men. The fault in. South Africa is that there are too few white men. The Labour party and the Minister of Labour have been fighting for the policy of more white men for South Africa, and we should like to get it from: the Government that they are going to carry out this policy of the Labour party, which is also the policy of the Nationalist party in the Transvaal. The Cape natives have also asked for it; they have sent a deputation to the Government asking that the importations of natives be stopped.

When I sat down I was referring to the remarks of Sir Evelyn Wallers at the annual meeting of the Rand mines, in which he said that it was necessary to allow the industry to develop on sound lines free from interruption and interference. In view of the results gained by the Rand mines, I think it is rather presumptuous on their part not to put it stronger. In the “South African Mining Journal” for 21st June, 1924, there are given ten mines subsidiary to this group and on the declaration of their dividends they showed 21⅛ per cent. as the average for the half year, making 42¼ per cent. per annum. They go up as high as 60 per cent. for the half year. In the East Rand there has only been one mining failure up to now. Daggafontein has been closed down, but we have no proof that this is not really a paying mine. I have come to the conclusion that the money was not as judiciously spent as it might have been, and I question the engineering wisdom with which this mine was developed. Daggafontein has only developed 6,000 feet of reef, yet it gives a margin above that minimum of payability laid down by mines which are to-day paying to the Government. It is a strongly-backed opinion that the connection drive between the two shafts (on which an exorbitant cost was incurred) was undertaken at a wrong level or depth, and a consequence was that most of it was driven through extremely hard dyke, multiplying the cost enormously. It is imperative, in view of the amount of jugglery, more especially in the far East Rand on the part of promoters that certain clauses of the Gold Act should be put into operation. Take a mine registered before the Boer war which is not being developed to-day. I refer to the Welgedacht Mine. The present owner, Sir Abe Bailey, is showing no inclination to deal with it. That property is being held up with a view to a depreciation of its stock and the property next door, registered about the same time with £80,000 capital, has been liquidated through a debt of £4,000 by the controlling house and, as a result, we shall find 16 miles of farms with about 18,000 morgen of land falling into the hands of one individual, who will pile another fortune on top of what he already controls, and the original subscribers will cease to have any interest in the property. That property has a V.F.P. power line going over it, and pays £600 a year to retain it. It produced coal for some years. The machinery for coal mining was sold to another mining proposition under the same controller, and the place left bare. This is on the northern boundary of Geduld East. Two adjoining coal mining properties are producing on a large scale, and paying dividends on exactly the same seam as Welgedacht was working. The starving out of Welgedacht is one of the greatest scandals of Rand mining, to which I hope the refer in greater detail later on in the session. I refer to it now to add weight to my request for enquiry. What we want to see is the whole question of the Far East Rand areas put on a business footing and the Minister would be doing an effective service to this country if he dealt with that problem, so that we can get ahead with the development of our country and use our resources for the purposes to which they should be directed. There is a feeling on the Rand to-day—and I am no alarmist—that Rand interests, except in one or two respects, are being somewhat neglected. The Minister will no doubt recollect that there was a wish that there should be an enquiry into the incidents of 1922. I do not want to drag that in here, but the failure to have such an enquiry caused a widespread feeling of disappointment on the Rand. Then there is this matter of the Far East Rand areas and their development, and getting them to a producing stage. We should gradually spread out and work eastward as we have an opportunity of doing to-day, and thus extend the working of the Witwatersrand eastwards, as it is dying out in the centre and westward. We know the reefs lie there. Boring is not necessary to prove that. It does not seem to me that there is anything unreasonable in that. It does seem rather anomalous that we should hesitate to finance a proposition, while, on the other hand, certain tenders are not regarded as acceptable, because they do not offer us enough for our assets. If you want private people to pay a liberal tribute with money subscribed by the public, then, logically, we should be prepared to sink our own money in such schemes and have as much confidence in them as we expect other people to display. I agree with the view of the hon. member for Pretoria (West) (Mr. Hay). I am not appealing particularly here for a State mining proposition, but I do say that, if no financial body is putting up terms which the Minister and his department think are adequate and acceptable to us, then, most emphatically, rather than let those areas lie dormant, we should take immediate steps to prove them and push on their development so that at the earliest possible date they will be producing and yielding a dividend to us, and providing employment for those displaced in the older mines. [Time expired.]

I am surprised at the remarks of the hon. member for Bloemfontein (North) (Mr. Barlow). I ask whether he and the members on the cross benches are in earnest in regard to taking away native labour from the mines. Eighty thousand East Coast natives are employed in the mines. If they prevent these natives from working in the mines, what are they going to substitute in their place? Are they going to repeat the experiment of a few years ago made by the present Minister of Labour with Europeans at wages of 5s. a day? It was a ghastly failure; are they going to recruit eighty thousand natives from the Union, or are they going to try and work these mines with white labour, and do they think the mining industry is the only industry in this country? What is going to happen to the other industries? In every direction industries are requiring more labour, particularly in regard to cotton, wattle, maize and sugar. I maintain that in the near future we will not have enough natives to go round to carry in these industries. One company alone, growing cotton, requires 10,000 hands. I am surprised at the narrow view taken by these hon. gentlemen on the cross benches.

It is a great pity the hon. gentleman who has just spoken rushed in, because to us who know something about the matter his lack of information is obvious. We are asked if we are prepared to repeat what he calls a ghastly experiment made under the aegis of my friend the present Minister of Labour. That experiment, so far from being a failure, was a gigantic success, and that is where he shows his ignorance. The experiment was closed down on the direct orders of those who controlled the mines, not because it was a failure, but because it was a success. It was not long after the experiment was started that no man was receiving so little as 5s. a day. The present Minister of Labour had to carry on with two organizations, one of natives and one of whites, and in spite of this and of the fact that he raised the wages to double what the hon. gentleman mentioned, he brought out the working costs at only 2d. per ton more. During an election campaign I was able to get authentic information, giving a comparison between a mine in Western Australia and one near my own home. Working conditions and the size of the mines were equal in every way, but the former was run by white labour and the other by black labour, and in the case of the Australian mine the ore was brought to the surface more cheaply than the other. I was disappointed to hear the Minister of Defence indicate that all the Government proposes to do is to maintain the supply from outside Union borders. Thus we shall be drawing, from outside the Union, natives to come into competition with our own South African natives, 80,000 every year, and we thought—what glowing promises were made—we thought a halt was going to be made and a progressive movement started. I would be the last to suggest that we should cut off that supply en bloc at once, and thus undoubtedly disorganize the industry; but I say a start should be made and that there should be a continual progressive restriction of the importation under which the controllers of the mining industry would have to take their natives from inside the borders of the Union to work their mines. The hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) seemed to sneak quite confidently as if the decision of the Government was to shut the door in the face of any possible intrusion by the State in working the gold mines of this country. I hope the hon. member has misread or misheard the Minister of Mines and Industries in this connection, and if not I am bitterly disappointed. We do not ask that you should at once turn the whole system topsy-turvy—that would be the advocacy of a fool, and we are not all fools in spite of the efforts Of hon. members to make us appear to be so by reading into our actions and words things that never existed and never will exist. We want this thing to be approached tentatively. All we ask is that the Government shall embark on one State gold mine only. Let us prove the position once and for all. If the effort fails, what a splendid argument it would be for those who oppose State mining to oppose further intrusion. If hon. members are so sure that State mining is going to fail, they should agree to this experiment in order to close our mouths.

It is cheaper to listen to you.

They fear the loss of a million or two. Why—shades of Durban elevator; shades of various other things that our State has put its hand to under unwise guidance. Millions have been lost in this country in wild cat schemes. We would err in good company in that case, and surely it would be worth while for the State to spend or to waste one or two millions. Even in such an event, the country would not lose by it. It would be the gainer, because, as we used to hear from those who support the present mining industry controllers, most of that money is spent in the country on stores or wages. If that be true, it is a further reason why we should be prepared to risk this—which is no risk at all—one or two millions in the direction of a State mining experiment. There is no danger at all. Read the chief Government mining engineer’s report on the East Rand areas, and nobody can say that that gentleman is socialistically inclined. If that gentleman, of rather conservative instinct, can tell us that there is anything from £400,000,000 to £1,000,000,000 waiting to be extracted, there is very little risk in the Government undertaking State gold mining. [Time expired.]

I want to say my final word on this question. I am trying to advocate not a wildcat scheme but a purely business proposition. I would like to ask why it is that when we, as a community, want a public service done we first try to get private people to do it at a profit. When we know what our needs are, and can, under our own management, render these services efficiently and just as economically as any private enterprise can do it, I do not see why we should not undertake them rather than they should be run for the profit of private people. I will give instances where it has been necessary to take public duties away from private enterprise. Take housing. The report of the Central Housing Board says—

We have national electric power schemes, water, transportation, education, hospitals, land settlement and irrigation. How many irrigation schemes have the Government had to pull out of the fire that were initiated by private enterprise? It was only because the State was behind some of the irrigation schemes that they came to fruition and are successful today. I hope the Government will try to jettison any nervous prejudice it may have against State mining. I have had a telegram from the secretary of the Mine Workers’ Union asking me to raise the question of the Boksburg Gap. The hon. member for Boksburg has made reference to it. It is here that a difference of opinion on the geology of this area has arisen between the Government’s advisers and equally reliable private opinion. A great deal hinges on an early settlement of the question. It involves the whole future of Far East Rand mining including the opening up of the real main reef series east of Boksburg on to Heidelberg. It is a question by itself which demands immediate and special attention and I trust that its importance will be realized by the Minister. Not only the working miners on the Rand, but the whole population, working, commercial and professional and everyone concerned with the welfare of the Witwatersrand are anxious that the mining industry shall be pushed ahead and be further developed, and as far as possible be released from the domination of financial houses which have done more to shake the credit of this country overseas than any other factor.

I want to say I was further disappointed to find that the Minister of Mines and Industries had expressed himself that some arrangement would be arrived at soon in which the Cinderella and the E.R.P.M. would be amalgamated. In the same way I suppose, as the lady and the tiger were amalgamated. The tiger returned. The Cinderella and the E.R.P.M. will be amalgamated by the E.R.P.M. swallowing the Cinderella. He seems to think that the Boksburg residents would be delighted at that consummation coming to pass. There is going to be very little advantage by that amalgamation. It is necessary for the Cinderella to be opened as a separate concern, either by the present owners or by the State, in order to give an opportunity, not only for the production of gold but for the employment of more men. The only reason why we should intervene at all is in order to try and find more employment. I assert that not more than ten or a dozen additional men will be employed under the present condition. Of course it is going to lengthen the life of the E.R.P.M. but it does not follow that the E.R.P.M. would close down if the Cinderella is not amalgamated with it. If they would run it more economically and not overweight it with overhead costs—

Why does the Labour party not buy the mine and run it themselves?

That is what we want to do—Oh! Buy it. I am informed the workings of the E.R.P.M. have been pushed right up to the boundaries of the Cinderella in anticipation of this amalgamation and they have only to wait now until the amalgamation and they will then be ready to extract the quartz containing gold from the Cinderella area through the present workings of the E.R.P.M. and they will not employ any more men to extract the gold.

Business suspended at 6 p.m. and resumed at 8.5 p.m.

Is not the Minister going to reply to the question as to the electric power station?

Hon. members certainly have not been very modest or very sparing in their questions. Now it seems to me that I have got to go through the whole gamut again.

That is not necessary.

Not necessary?

Not to those questions which you have already replied to.

In regard to the £100 mentioned by the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) that is for the Electricity Control Board. If they don’t have meetings, or if their meetings are fewer than usual, then that amount is reduced. In regard to the Durban municipality, a satisfactory contract has been concluded between the Electricity Commission and the municipality to supply the city and harbour with an adequate power supply. In regard to Johannesburg, the first answer is that the matter appertains to the administrators. The Electricity Act vests the jurisdiction to authorize loans to any municipality in the administrator. The Johannesburg municipality has, as in the past, approached the administrator and, of course, his decision in the ordinary course is final. I also want to point out that the whole policy underlying the Electricity Act is one of nationalization and superficially, at all events, the attitude of the Johannesburg municipality appears to be incomprehensible, because it seems to militate against that very principle of nationalization. I think that a misapprehension prevails as to the relationship of the Electricity Commission toward the V.F.P. The commission has done its best to fight the V.F.P., and it opposed the application for a licence, and got the conditions of that licence modified very materially. The result has been that not only have the mines been advantaged by that opposition to the granting of an unconditional licence, or a licence free from restrictions, but the general consumers along the Rand have been advantaged by the arrangement concluded. It would obviously be a far more expensive undertaking for the Electricity Commission to have put up a power station at Witbank and not to have availed itself of the overhead facilities that were already there for the V.F.P. Remember that the Electricity Commission is a statutory body, created by Act of Parliament, and not under my control in that respect. The arrangements made by the Electricity Commission with the V.F.P. are such that the power station to be erected at Witbank would be the property, not of the V.F.P., as appears to be the impression of certain hon. gentlemen here, but of the Electricity Commission. The V.F.P. is to become one of the biggest consumers, and when the Electricity Commission, in the interest of other consumers, municipalities and others, deem it advisable they can reduce the amount of power at the disposal of the V.F.P. at any time and the V.F.P. have to be content with the balance, or none at all. I was saying that the matter appertains to the administrator. A deputation, under the leadership, I believe, a Mr. Clarke, from the Johannesburg municipality met me here some time ago, and it was then asserted, and asserted with confidence on the part of the municipality that they could produce their own power cheaper than the Electricity Commission could. I said to them—

Whether they have convinced the administrator I do not know, but Dr. van der Byl, chairman of the Electricity Commission, was present at the interview and he certainly intimated to the deputation that if they laid satisfactory proof before the Electricity Commission of being able to produce power more cheaply than the commission could from Witbank for Johannesburg municipal purposes, it would make all the difference in the world to the report of the Electricity Commission under the statute to the administrator. These negotiations are now proceeding. I have heard nothing further. If the Johannesburg municipality establish the fact that their production of power will be at a cheaper rate than that of the commission, good luck to them, and I have no doubt at all that they will get what they want.

The administrator is only adviser to the Electricity Commission.

That is prescribed under the statute and surely it is a state of affairs in which I have no power, as Minister, to interfere. I take it that, until we amend or repeal the Electricity Act, I must carry out the broad policy of that Act, and that is the nationalization of power and Witbank is one of the finest centres, not only in South Africa, but I believe in the world, for the production of power at the cheapest possible rate. I now come to the speeches of the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Kentridge), the hon. member for Benoni (Mr. Madeley), and the hon. member for Boksburg (Mr. McMenamin) about State mining. On Friday night I did not say a word about State mining, but I am glad to hear from the hon. member for Benoni that he is not advocating the general nationalization of mines and his request dwindled down to a modest one—try one State mine. I have often said, and I say it to-day, that our grand opportunity to create a State mine was when we gave out the Government areas, the first area that was given out under lease. If we had made that a State mine, it would have been one of the finest State mines ever known in the history of the world, and, although it may not have been run so successfully as the present enterprise is running it—I do not see why it should not have been—and, although it may not have had the benefit of such able advice as it has had under private management, still its inherent wealth and richness are such that it must have been made a success of, even by the State, and it would have afforded a very material outlet for our unemployed and would, at the same time, have established a practical test of the success of State mining. I am not prepared to say at this stage that as far as these areas are concerned the Government will not consider in regard to a particular area the advisability of guaranteeing something, or contributing something. I told hon. gentlemen on Friday night that the policy of the Government in regard to the East Band areas and leasing areas had not been determined. The very fact that we had tenders in the past, about September last, and that we have not accepted these tenders, shows that the whole thing is in the crucible, and all I can fell hon. gentlemen is this, that, during the session we have had no time to go further into the matter, but that it is a matter which will receive our earnest attention during the early part of the coming recess. It is no good rushing the matter. Fourteen years have passed during which the present Government and its supporters have had no practical say with regard to this matter. But surely we require some reasonable time to determine our policy with regard to such an important matter. With regard to the introduction of native labour from Portuguese territory or from Rhodesia, I do not propose adding anything to the statement made by the Minister of Labour, because it is a matter of labour; it is a question that pertains exclusively to his department. It is true that up to the formation of the present Ministry Labour was part of the Department of Mines and Industries, but it has been specially divorced. I think our friends on the cross benches especially desired that there should be a special portfolio for Labour, and these are questions that must be directed to and answered by the Minister of Labour. With regard to trade commissioners, I fully share the views urged by the hon. member for Zululand (Mr. Nicholls), although not all the views, but with regard to our opening up Africa itself and other parts of the world with a view to trading with them. In reply to the question by the hon. member for Beaufort West (Mr. Louw) I have already intimated that our proposal to appoint a trade commissioner in America will be experimental to a considerable extent, but he is to be appointed not only for America, but also for Canada. The sort of trade we intend opening up I have already enumerated.

We are doing it now.

Yes, but why should we not endeavour to expand that trade. The hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger) seems to want to put a damper on the whole thing; he wants to see America shut off. America is doing very extensive trade with us to-day. She is sending us a lot of stuff, and there is no reason to be pessimistic as to our opportunities and chances in America; but at any rate, even if we catch more trade in Canada, the appointment will have been justified.

*The hon. member for Pretoria (North) (Mr. Oost) has mentioned the matter of Bynestpoort. I am not responsible for any promise that the right hon. leader of the Opposition made by telegram or otherwise. I will only say that if we want to force the position to-day legislation will be required. I have on several occasions tried to make the position clear to the hon. member. I know he takes an interest in the people there, and I myself think that the policy of the Premier Company is very much that of the dog in the manger. I see no danger to the Premier Company if the ground is made available for diggers. The company has no intention to itself go and dig there. They are alluvial diamonds, and the position is that this is land which was got from the old Pretoria Diamond Company out of the profits of the Premier Company, in which the State has a 60 per cent. interest. The ground is therefore registered to-day in accordance with the agreement which bears the joint name of the Premier Company and the State. That is the difficulty. The articles of association, unfortunately, say that notwithstanding the fact that the ground has been acquired from the profits of the company and is registered in the joint name of the company and the State, it shall be used for the purposes of the mine. Now the mines allege that they got the ground (although the State has a 60 per cent. interest in it) for their washed-out ground, and also obtained it for the purpose of keeping people at a distance from the Premier Mine in view of possible illicit diamond buying. I do not see the difficulties of the company. Steps can be taken to prevent the things they are afraid of, and yet to make the ground available for the people. The company further rely upon the promise of my predecessor that if they surrendered a small piece of ground they would not be further bothered, and that they have in the past given up a piece of ground. Thus they rely upon the promise of the former Government and say that we have no right to demand the giving up of further ground. I had a letter written to the company the other day to ask them to inform us precisely whether they, as regards the remaining portion which has not yet been given to the diggers and which was by far the largest portion, will agree to divide it mutually, so that 60 per cent. can be cut off belonging to the State, and if they would agree to that then the Government would be willing to give up the ground to the diggers to dig for alluvial diamonds. To which, as I have already said, the Premier Company can have little objection. The answer was again the same, namely, that it was not fair to make the appeal on them. But I am negotiating still further, I shall of course say nothing except that if further steps have to be taken supposing the company remains unwilling to do anything in this direction that then the steps will have to be taken by way of legislation. Then I come to the question asked me by the hon. member for Lydenburg (Mr. Nieuwenhuize) about platinum. The Government does not intend to repeal the proclamation by which platinum was declared a precious metal. It is the declared policy of the Government, and by that we stand. As regards schemes for the development of the platinum field, I must remind the hon. member that not a single ounce of platinum has as yet been taken out of the field. To-day everything that is done is “prospecting,” and as regards the stock exchange, it is a wild speculation. A great “boom” was going on and spread, I think, to London. It is certainly an unsound state of affairs. Then the hon. member has further mentioned that there are three ways of throwing such fields open, namely, in the first place, by way of pegging in the usual way, or by way of a lottery. In the second place, by leasing areas; and in the third place, by running State mines. Well, I do not think that there is any practical reason for assuming that State mining will develop itself here. As regards pegging, the policy of the Government is to help the small man as much as possible, but unfortunately the poor man only too often does not assist the Government in helping him. We have heard that heaps of people are ready to peg when the grounds are thrown open, and these people have been organized. By whom? Not by the small man, but they are paid by the rich men, and give their services to put the rich men in possession of the claims. The same will be the result if the ground is given out by a lottery. Ultimately the financier comes into possession of the ground in any case. Of course the small man has possibly not the money to develop the ground and so—in the case of a lottery—his portion goes to the man with money. I think that the most practical manner of disposing of the ground is the lease system. I will only say that it is possible that there will be some cases where the ground will be thrown open for pegging, but I think that on the whole the lease system must be applied as the most fair and safe. If since the early days when the Witwatersrand was discovered the Government of the republic had followed that method at the time as laid down in the gold law of 1908 to, e.g., provide for a lease system then the State will have made much more out of the gold fields of the Witwatersrand under the republic and later under the Crown Colony Government, and I think that that must be the principle as far as possible with reference to platinum. As for lotteries, I do not personally see much objection to the principle; an example is furnished under the old republican Government under President Kruger when, I think in 1895, a law was introduced by which the giving out of claims by lottery was declared legal, and I remember quite well how shortly before the outbreak of the war in 1899, claims were disposed of by means of a lottery.

The hon. member for Pretoria (West) (Mr. Hay) asked me if the Government would institute an enquiry into the Witbank and Victoria Falls Power Company affairs. I would refer him to the fact that the report of the commission appointed to enquire into the establishment of an electrical undertaking at Witbank has been published. I do not know whether he has read that report. I think it was the hon. member for Troyeville (Mr. Kentridge) who said that I must not be satisfied with the information I got from the Electricity Commission but I must institute an enquiry. Well, I must frankly say that no sufficient ground has been laid before me for instituting such an enquiry. I think there is an entire misapprehension with regard to this commission arising chiefly out of the question of the Johannesburg power supply; and at any rate until that matter has been cleared up and the administrator has come to a final decision and until I have had further reports from the Electricity Commission I should not be justified in instituting any enquiry. From the remarks of the hon. member for Pretoria (West) (Mr. Hay) I am afraid he is labouring under a misapprehension when he thinks that this power station has been established, at a little over a million, for the V.F.P. They are erecting it but it is being erected for the Electricity Commission.

It is leased to them.

No. The V.F.P. immediately under that contract becomes the consumer under the Electricity Commission, and the latter is immediately entitled to all the benefits of that contract, as owner. Naturally, they have to give the V.F.P. what they have erected on the extension.

Who owns the overhead power line from Witbank to the reef?

Surely that must be part of the power station itself, but further on we connect up with the lines of the V.F.P. itself, and by that means we save an enormous sum of money. It would have been most unwise of the Electricity Commission not to have availed itself of the overhead power lines of the V.F.P. where they already exist. The hon. member also raised the question of a public director on companies, and some hon. member poo-poohed the idea. I think it is not a bad idea at all. And they were at the same time so inconsistent as to complain about these companies. If every mining company—I do not want to speak of companies in general—were compelled, at its very inception, to recognize a Government director on its board, who would enquire into the coming into being of the company, and see that it comes into being on sound lines, and that director continued on that board, holding a brief for the Government—

And the people?

The Government is assumed to represent the people—I think it would have a most salutary effect.

If they went bang, the Government would have to pay up.

Not at all.

The moral responsibility would be there.

That person would sit, merely holding a brief from the Government, and conveying to the Government such information as would be necessary from time to time. It is an excellent idea, and one we are going to give effect to. From my experience of the Witwatersrand, it is not an unnecessary step. If it had been done years ago, many a fraud would have been prevented.

What about the Dorenkop estates in Natal?

I do not know to what the hon. member refers. I can take the House into my confidence, and say I have had a Bill lying ready for the last three months, dealing with this question of a public director. There is nothing to hide.

Are you going to bring it in this session?

Yes, I will still introduce it this session, if I can possibly manage to do so. That has been my intention all along.

There is plenty of room in the Order Paper. Put it on.

I am glad to afford the right hon. the leader of the Opposition some of that fun which he anticipated.

Are you going to put a Government director on every new platinum company on the Rand?

The hon. member for Bezuidenhout (Mr. Blackwell) has appealed to me to-night to save people from burning their own fingers. I am afraid there is a section of our population, in South Africa, especially on the Rand, who will never protect themselves or even allow themselves to be protected by the State.

Hear, hear.

They have burned their fingers for the last 30 years, and will go on doing that as long as they live. They will have their little gambles.

That does not absolve you from your responsibility.

We have a Companies Act, and I am sorry that the Bill which is for the whole Union is not on the statute book, but I hope this will be done not later than next year.

*The hon. member for Beaufort West (Mr. E. H. Louw) has asked me about the removal of the office of the trades commissioner from Hamburg to Milan This was a strong recommendation from the present trades commissioner on the continent, but it is not an irreparable step. There is still another office in Hamburg. With reference to the question of the hon. member for Barkly (Mr. W. B. de Villiers), I can tell him that under the vote he mentions there is no provision for ordinary irrigation. The development referred to is for mineral development of the ground. I shall do my best to get a grant of a portion of the money for mineral development on the lines he indicated. I have already said that the amount is ridiculously small. The report about our mineral resources is dated in March, and we cannot consider it this session.

The question of the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (South) (Sir William Macintosh) is the same as was put to me on Friday night by the hon. member for Cape Town (Central) (Mr. Jagger, namely, with regard to the trade commissioner for America, and I have already answered that question. With regard to the general industrial policy, I would refer the hon. member for Zululand (Mr. Nicholls) to what the Government has done since it has been in power.

You have done nothing.

Is it the opinion of the hon. member for Zululand that we have done nothing up to now?

I asked you your opinion in regard to the minerals committee.

I have just answered that this report was issued in April, and is dated January, and that it has been utterly impossible for the Government to go into the matter this session.

I said you have done nothing. What have you done?

If the hon. member has the temerity to make such a statement, I do not think he deserves an answer. With regard to the questions put by the hon. member for Illovo (Mr. Marwick), as to the weights and measures, I will enquire into the matter of the Durban municipality’s grievance, but my impression is that it was found impossible to comply with their request because, if every member of the public, or every municipality, were to direct requests for such information to the department of weights and measures, it would become impossible to supply the information; the expenditure attached to it would make it impossible. With regard to farmers having to bring in scales if under 600 lbs., we have met them as far as possible in regard to large scales; but with regard to scales under 600 lbs., again the expense attached to the carrying out of the Act would be increased to such an extent that it has been found impracticable to make the concession, and we have had to confine it to visiting their places only in the case of scales exceeding 600 lbs. Of course, if, on such occasions, scales of a lesser number of lbs. are available, they can be done at the same time. With regard to the unit of 100 lbs., the department has found it necessary to make this a strict provision. A unit of 112 lbs. cannot be recognized. With regard to the question put by the hon. member for Albany (Mr. Struben), there is a fishery survey committee which consists of the Secretary for Mines and Industries, who is chairman, Dr. Gilchrist, the fishery expert, Commander Rankin, representing the South African Naval Service, a representative of the Cape provincial administration, a representative of the Natal provincial administration, and a representative of the South-West African administration. With regard to the motion brought before the House by the hon. member for Caledon (Mr. Krige), I stated on Friday night that we have had no time since to go into this matter; but this fishery survey committee is going into the whole matter, and we are now contemplating the appointment of a sub-committee. They point out that there are great engineering difficulties in the way of carrying out the suggestions of the hon. member, but the matter will be gone into. The standing committee is busy with the matter. With regard to the remarks of Professor Cory on deposits of phosphates, I will have that investigated. The matter was only brought to the notice of the public a few days ago, in the public press. With regard to the observations of the hon. member for Boksburg (Mr. McMenamin) about the amalgamation between the E.R.P.M. and the Cinderella, if it is effect ed, he says that what I said on Friday night, will leave Boksburg stone cold.

Quite correct.

But I do not think the hon. member realized that in Section 209 of the Companies Act, provision is made for amalgamation, and it is provided there that three months’ prior notice must be given to the Minister of Justice, who will not authorize the amalgamation unless this section is complied with. No transfer of the Cinderella property which is to be absorbed by the E.R.P.M. can take effect without the consent of the Minister of Justice. If the Cinderella is simply to be absorbed with a view to doing nothing, provision could be made by the Minister in giving his consent, that there shall be a reasonable guarantee of working that property at a fairly early date.

Will you insist upon a guarantee?

It is a matter falling under the jurisdiction of my colleague. I don’t want to divulge anything further, but it may be that a suggestion will be put forward that the State should give some guarantee or help of some sort, and naturally the State would couple with that a condition, or a series of conditions. I think the hon. member for Springs (Mr. Allen) suggested that we should appoint a select committee of this House to enquire into the question of developing the East Rand areas. I think the hon. member will agree with me, after what I have said this evening, that it would not be practicable to carry out this suggestion, because we have to determine our whole policy after this session. I think I have dealt with most of the questions raised this afternoon, and I hope that hon. members will take my answers n conjunction with what I said on Friday night, and that the vote will now be passed.

There is just one point. I think the House will be very disappointed with the Minister’s answer about Geduld East. I understand that he will not do anything until after the session, and then will enquire about State mining. He called for tenders two years ago, and of course the mines working on the East Rand are getting exhausted. The Minister has had three tenders—one quite recently from Sir J. B. Robinson—which were rejected. It is reckoned that the cost of equipping a shaft and sinking and equipping the mine at Geduld East will be £1,500,000.

Why not?

This country cannot afford to gamble with £1,500,000. We have to bear in mind the taxpayers, and it is not fair, just or statesmanlike for the Government to put the money of the taxpayers into mining ventures. It seems to me that for some reason or other the Government’s terms must be too onerous. Three different people have tendered and the Government has rejected the tenders.

They are tendering again.

It is to be hoped that they will, and that my hon. friend will take a fairer view, while not giving the leases for nothing. The sooner mining is started there the better. How you can hold the matter up, seeing that there is so much unemployment on the Rand, I fail to understand. I hope my hon. friend, if he gets anything like a fair offer, will accept it, and not be obsessed by any idea of State mining.

The Geduld East is open to tender today. I hope the hon. member will compete.

I am not such an ass.

I trust the Minister will not listen to the blandishments of the Opposition. I am perfectly certain that if we could take a referendum of the taxpayers 90 per cent. of them would say, “Open a mine and take the chances.” With regard to what the Minister has said in connection with Victoria Falls Power Company, I should like him further to elucidate his remarks. I understood him to say that as a body corporate managed the Witbank power station he had nothing to do with it. The appointment of the Electricity Supply Commission is made by the Governor-General, and therefore, plainly, by the Government. Clause 5 of the Act provides that the commission’s reports shall be submitted to the Minister, and if the commission grants a licence or a permit it must be with the approval of the Minister. I think from what the Minister has said the public would think this body corporate acted on its own, and the Government had practically nothing to do with it. I want such an impression to be removed. In regard to the contract itself, from the way the Minister puts it, it would appear that the V.F.P. would have nothing whatever to do with it, except to hand over this supply to the commission for distribution to consumers. They applied for a permit under the Act, but the commissioners opposed it, but afterwards consented to give the permit. I want the Minister to be clear about it, as the Government advanced over a million to build the power station. It is all very well to say that it is built for the commissioners; in a sense it is so, but it is being handed to the V.F.P. and they take the power generated and sell it.

No, they run it for the commission.

Yes, exactly, in a sense, but it is really handed over to the V.F.P. Am I not right in saying that they run it and contracts under it, but the cost price includes 10 per cent. for the overhead charges and for the parent company? In other words, is it not that Government is providing £1,250,000 for a power station and handing it over to the V.F.P. for 20 years? Is it not also correct that the commissioners can take the station back on payment to the V.F.P. on certain terms? I am very badly informed indeed if what I am saying is not the actual position—that what was intended to be a national undertaking has now become merely a mask for the Victoria Falls Power Company. While thanking the Minister for what he told us I want the position to be thoroughly understood, for there is widespread belief that the V.F.P. is going to make a large profit. The Marquis of Winchester, at a meeting of the shareholders of the V.F.P., referred to the good bargain which the company had made. Knowing the company is over capitalized, two millions of it being absolutely watered, mostly for the misleading name of the company, if they are going to get 10 per cent on their capital before we arrive at what the cost of the current is to be, the matter is very serious indeed. If this had been a national enterprise, Johannesburg would not have minded at all, for the power station at Witbank has the advantage of being able to generate electricity cheaply. Johannesburg found, however, that instead of current being supplied at cost, the cost includes overhead charges and apparently 10 per cent. on the enormous capital of the V.F.P. Johannesburg, therefore, found that it could generate power cheaper than could the so-called national enterprise. Don’t let this enterprise be handed over to a company which has a past which is anything but reputable.

The hon. member argues that no profit can be made under the Act. The V.F.P. erects the station, fits it out, and the commission can take it over at any time. The V.F.P. run it for the commission, which may at any time assume active control of the whole thing, but in the meantime the V.F.P. cannot make profits any more than the commission can. The idea is to supply the public with power at cost price.

I would just like to refer to the question of the assizing of weights and measures. People not resident in towns but in the rural areas are put to great inconvenience to carry in their heavy platform scales. It was never meant when we passed the Weights and Measures Act that every weighing and measuring instrument should be assized and stamped by the assizer, but it was meant only for scales used in trade and not for all scales and measuring instruments, not for scales, etc., used by the farmers for their own convenience for such things as taking weights for the railway, as the railway scale determines the weight of the consignment. Take the farmer who sells wool. Who determines the weight? It is the buyer. The farmer only uses them to find the weight as near as possible, and if he is half-a-pound out it makes no great difference, but it does put these people to great inconvenience in having to carry in their heavy scales. I wish the Minister would take this into consideration. A farmer may measure up a bit of timber with a rule or tape line about once in five years. Must he have those instruments assized also? Why not have bottle measures and things like that brought in for the same purpose? The Act was meant for the trader’s scales.

I will take it into consideration, but it seems to me the hon. member is advocating an amendment of the existing law. If it had never been intended surely the Act would have excluded those scales.

It is just a question of what is meant by “used in trade.” It does not want an amendment of the Act but just what interpretation is put upon these words.

The amendment proposed by Mr. Blackwell was put and negatived.

The amendment proposed by Mr. Jagger was withdrawn.

Vote put and agreed to.

On vote 26, “Union Education,” £541,305.

I should like to put a few questions to the hon. Minister of Education in connection with the grants to the various universities and university colleges. I find that for the respective universities and colleges fairly large amounts are made available, and I should like to know if there is any relation between the amount a university gets and the number of students that are at the university. I am not able to see any relation between the figures that I have here. The university of Cape Town, e.g., with 1,777 students—of whom 730 are in art and music—gets a grant of £73,800; that of Stellenbosch, with 925 students, gets £38,900; Witwatersrand, with 1,181 students, gets £79,800; while the university colleges of South Africa, with 1,955 students in all, get a total amount of £108,255. I should just like to know from the hon. Minister on what basis those grants are made. A second question is in connection with what I shall call our educated proletariat. There is no occupation to-day in our country for many educated people. A large number of students are trained for whom clearly there is no work available. It is especially disappointing for parents and young men and women if such students, after they have made sacrifices and finished their studies, they have no field of occupation, and we to-day find graduates who can get no appointment in the direction they have pursued their studies, and who now have to accept any work. I know of one who is working on the diggings to-day. It seems to me that the State has a certain moral obligation to see that there are fields of work for the number of students who are studying at our universities, and I want to know from the hon. Minister if, in any way, he has laid down, or if it is his intention to lay down, the relation between those that are educated at the respective institutions and the demand that there is in the country, and the number of fields of occupation that are available for the students. We see from the figures which I gave at the beginning of my speech that about 5,840 students are at the universities and colleges of South Africa, and we must remember also that we only have a white population of 1½ millions, and that all the universities have almost all the faculties that there are. I should, therefore, like to know from the hon. Minister what the policy is that is followed in this respect. I believe the university of Stellenbosch approached the Government some years back to have a faculty of medicine which was refused by the Government, of course, with the object of preventing the existence of too many similar faculties at the various universities. Recently, I think a movement began to develop at Stellenbosch for the extension of the faculty in agricultural development. I think it would be wise for the Government to encourage the various universities to develop, especially in certain directions. I do not say that the Government should go and say: Such and such departments shall be studied at such and such a university, but by means of grants and advice, the Government can use its influence to divide the faculties in conformity with the requirements of the country and its people. I imagine that the hon. Minister consults from time to time the university council in connection with such matters. I should like to put another question in connection with paragraph C of this vote, with reference to the technical and industrial institutions and classes. I think that this vote is the result of the agreement in Durban with reference to certain faculties which were taken over by the Department of Education of the Union. I would just like to ask if that is the case. It is a vote of £160,000, but is divided without reference to the size of the province and the number of pupils. I should like to know if these allowances are given in accordance with the existing arrangements. It must not be thought that I am exhibiting provincialism, but I would like to know with what object these grants are given. I hear that the Free State Provincial Council, or the executive committee, has made an objection to the Government in connection with the taking over by the Government of certain branches of education. I shall be glad if the Minister will tell us how things are with regard to the negotiations with the provincial council of the Free State about this matter and whether the other provinces have also taken a decision with regard to this matter. Although I do not wish to blame the provincial councils I still think that in the past there has often been a lack of initiative on the part of the provincial executives, and I am glad that the Government has taken this step. The hon. Minister has an amount of £160,000 here for industrial education. I hope that in distributing this sum he will think a little about the children of the north-western portion where entirely inadequate provision is made for the practical education of the children. I therefore ask the hon. Minister to think favourably of the need for practical education of the northwest.

I thank the present Minister for the great steps that he is taking towards bettering the conditions of those who are studying technical subjects and undergoing vocational training. I am sure we are going to have better times in this matter. At the same time there are certain features of this question to which I desire to draw the Minister’s attention. For instance, while we are spending £305,475 on scholastic education, we are only providing £204,000 for industrial, technical and vocational training. All educational experts are agreed that 20 per cent. of the boys and girls are above the ordinary average, 40 per cent. practically of an average intelligence, and 40 per cent. below. Yet we are spending this vast sum of money on scholastic education. I am not opposed to that; what I want to emphasize is that, while we are spending this money on scholastic education, we are neglecting the chief education of the people of a country of this description, and that is vocational, industrial and technical education. At the present time the cost per student attending the colleges of this country is £100.5. We will take it on a basis of £100. I find that the State contributes 56.8 and that other sources, municipalities, mines and private individuals, contribute 21.3 per cent. That leaves bursaries and fees. You should deduct that portion which is given in the form of bursaries, but even by adding them together we only get 21.3 percent. The State pays £56.8, bursaries or fees represent £21.9 and from other sources £21.3 is contributed, showing the large amount that the State municipalities, etc., are prepared to give to anyone who goes in for scholastic education, although only 20 per cent. of the boys and girls have the ability to go through the universities. If we deduct those who neglect to go to the universities, we have the fact that 11 per cent of the boys and girls are going in for scholastic education, against 89 per cent. going in for ordinary education. Notwithstanding this, we find that the State only contributes towards technical, vocational or industrial education £12.15 per student. From other sources, municipalities and private individuals £1 18s. is received and from fees a sum of approximately £12 is raised, making the total cost per student £26 13s. I think something should be done in this matter, for the State surely has a greater responsibility towards those who are studying technical subjects than it has towards those who are receiving a scholastic education. The proportion of fees for those who go in for technical education is far higher than is the proportion in the case of those who go in for scholastic education. A boy who is receiving technical education pays practically 50 per cent. of the total cost of that education, whereas the boy who is receiving a scholastic education only pays 21.9 per cent. (the 21.9 would be reduced by deducting bursaries). It seems to me, therefore, that a clear case has been made out that the State is not doing its duty towards the boys and girls who are being educated in the arts, crafts and sciences in this country. I would like to ask the Minister, with regard to the item of £6,700 for bursaries, etc., for scholastic education, what bursaries he has got for technical subjects. If it is necessary to give bursaries for scholastic subjects, is it not essential that we should give bursaries for technical subjects? Another aspect of the matter is this, that while there is one opening for those who have received a scholastic education, there are, roughly, 35 openings for those who have technical knowledge. There is no doubt that it is painful to everyone who takes an interest in education to find B.A.’s and other persons with scholastic attainments out of employment. Those boys attend the colleges up to the age of 21 years, and at that age they are unable to enter ordinary trades and the result is, unfortunately, that a large number of them become unemployable. In this country the unskilled work is done largely by the non-Europeans, whereas in other countries it is done by those who are below the average in intelligence. Every father of a family knows that his children are not all gifted with the same level of intelligence. There are some boys and girls who, unfortunately, have not got brilliant intellects. In this country those boys must be trained from a technical standpoint and there is no one who, if taken in hand during youth and taught proper subjects, would not and could not become an artisan fit to work at the bench along with any other man. This is a matter to which you must pay practical attention. We are living with millions of uncivilized people round about us, and, if we neglect to give these boys and girls suitable education, it will react upon those who pride themselves on having a superior intelligence, because every European who falls in this country tends to bring down the standard of the whole race. I would ask the Minister, now that he has taken over from the Provincial Council vocational, technical and industrial education, if he will not concentrate his great abilities, not on those who are learning scholastic subjects, but upon those boys and girls who should be learning vocational, technical and industrial subjects. [Time expired.]

I hope the Minister will gratify a little natural curiosity that I have and which is shared by a good many, in regard to some literary authorities in the Witwatersrand University. I am curious as to the identity of three of the literary authorities at this University. The Minister may remember a short time ago a prize poem competition was run in the University Magazine and the adjudicators were three of the university professors whose salaries we are now voting. There was an interesting, and to some extent gratifying result of that competition. It appears we have two undoubtedly great budding poets, who wrote in Afrikaans, in our midst. This supplies a long-felt want, because although South Africa has produced many great men, up to the present she has not produced many great poets, but, apparently, we have two now. I say so because these authorities actually place them just before Shelley. It is very fortunate that Shelley was not returned as an “also ran”; he was at least “placed,” otherwise we might never have discovered the merits of these two competitors relative to a great poet. It is very desirable that these two young men should be ear marked, so to speak, in order that we may watch their careers in future. Why, the fame of these two poets who beat Shelley, in open contest, will only pale before the fame of the gentleman who beat Gen. Smuts. Some people say “poor Shelley.” I had a letter from a parent. She said—

And what about the poor students who are under the tutelage and the literary training of these authorities who barely give Shelley a place in a youth’s competition. I have done my best to get hold of the magazine containing the” three prize poems,” but it is apparently not procurable. Naturally, one would like to examine these competitive verses. I think these parents are seriously concerned that the literary training of youth should be entrusted to teachers who did not appreciate that, at all events Shelley was a great poet. I have no fault to find with particular authorities who may have a certain literary astigmatism; we know that George III confided to Fanny Burny that he thought Shakespeare “sad stuff.” It is possible some worthy literary people do not appreciate Shelley, but in this case a boy, styling himself “ridens,” pirated one of his poems and passed it off upon the university literary authorities. It is a serious matter if students have such a contempt for their literary instructors as to know they can play such pranks with them. In or about the year Shelley wrote this particular lyric poem he was at the zenith of his powers. He wrote such poems as “To a Skylark,” “Ode to the West Wind,” “Ode to Liberty,” The Cloud,” “The Sensitive Plant,” and other poems that are regarded by the world as classics. If these gentlemen were even cursorily acquainted with Shelley, they must have read these well-known poems, and if so, they would surely have turned over the page and found this particular poem pirated by the student and entitled “Time Long Past.” The first line will be remembered—and haunt the memory—

It is a very serious matter that we should have in our universities professors who do not command the confidence of their pupils and who could make such a mistake. I understand that a Liverpool professor also endorsed the opinion of these Witwatersrand professors. He also said, I believe, that Shelley “showed promise,” he “deserved encouragement,” but that his “diction might be improved.” Well, all I can say is “dog don’t eat dog.” It is no good going against the opinion of the world, although people are entitled to their views on this or that particular poem, but surely it is expected of a literary authority that he should not display his ignorance of literature by not even knowing of the existence of this particular poem. Bernard Shaw at the conclusion of a first night at one of his plays was received with rapturous applause, but there was one solitary hiss from the gallery. Looking up, he said—

What are the views of these professors against the literary opinion of the world? We have had our little laugh, but there is a serious side to all this and I hope the Minister wilt see that serious side.

After the hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) has so long been hovering in the clouds I want to return to practical things. I want to break a lance for the Free State in connection with the great need that exists there. I see that £21,000 is paid for the technical college in Durban and £23,000 for that in Cape Town. In the Free State there is no technical college. Everyone that is acquainted with conditions knows that we need such a college there. We have a university college there and also facilities for agricultural education but there is not sufficient opportunity for training in technical branches. I can give the Minister the assurance that there is a great demand for such an institution. Many of our lads do not want to or cannot go to the university. They, however, have no technical college in Bloemfontein and they are lost to the trade and profession. They become clerks, or a barman, or something of the sort. Much is done by the night classes of the schools, but it is not enough and the Free State is thirsting for such an institution. It is said that such an institution should only exist in the large industrial centres. But what then is to become of the lads in places such as Bloemfontein? They cannot always afford to go to the Rand or Cape Town or Durban. Bloemfontein is very far to go, and, as the capital of the Free State, it is time that the Government should give it to us. We have railway workshops there but the children have no opportunity of being trained. It is not necessary for me to enter into the necessity of technical education, other members have already done so. It is a fact that our lads walk around with the titles of B.A. and M.A. and have no work. The Minister of Railways and Harbours has told us that he knows of no case where a person with the B.A. degree is working as an ordinary labourer on the railways. Large numbers with the matriculation certificate are working there as ordinary labourers. When once we get to that then there must be something wrong. Then we must be top heavy with regard to academic training, or we have not sufficient technical education, or both are the case. The young men that come out of the universities ask us where they can get work. They have no technical capacity and they remain without work. We do not say that the matter of technical education will solve the whole difficulty, but we know that the technical colleges have already done much for the lads of the other three provinces. We only ask that the Government will also give the privilege to the Free State and I hope that the Minister of Education and the Government will give their earnest consideration to the matter so that we in the Free State can also enjoy this privilege.

I should like to ask the Minister what the position is in regard to having a technical college at Port Elizabeth. The Minister had interviews with our people at Port Elizabeth in regard to the matter, but I see no provision made here. I need not give any details, as the Minister has them all, but I should be glad to have some information from the Minister as to what the position is. Another matter which was brought before the Minister on his visit to Port Elizabeth, was the great need there is for an industrial institution to which the coloured people could send their boys. They complain that in the whole of the Cape Province, at any rate, there is no place where education of the sort can be got, and they think that is distinctly unfair. The Minister promised, at the time, to take the matter into consideration, and I should like to know whether any decision has been come to in regard to the matter.

I would like to ask the Minister if he will make enquiries and find out the number of South African artisans employed in the railway workshops. I believe the Minister of Railways and Harbours has the figures. I would also like to ask the Minister if he cannot extend the granting of degrees to technical students. A great fetish has been made of the B.A. and M.A. degrees, and I would like facilities given for a degree, based on practically the same standard, to be granted to those who pass an examination in technical subjects.

I would also like to ask the Minister if he intends to make provision for a technical college at East London. As he knows, there are a large number of youths leaving school there each year, and there is very little opportunity for them to learn trades. In view of the expressed policy of the Government to provide more employment, and employment for which the youths of this country would be fitted, I would point out that they cannot take up trades unless they have reasonable opportunity of learning their trades and learning them thoroughly. An institute of this sort is very much needed at East London, to serve the town and district, and I hope the Minister will be able to assure us that on next year’s estimates an amount will appear to defray the costs of such an institution.

I want to bring to the notice of the Minister the trade schools in the Cape Province with one teacher. I want to know whether the Minister will take them over as well. There are thousands of children in our country who want to learn a trade, and the Minister must do more in this connection. I am one of those who likes to put his finger on the expenditure, but when it comes to a matter like this, then I would like to support the Minister in spending more. There is a shortage of tradesmen. I know this as a farmer, and the training of artisans is the direction we should go in. We have quite enough doctors, attorneys, advocates, and too many farmers’ children are studying those professions.

Or parsons.

No, all the parsons have work. Our object must be to teach more of our children trades. It will be better than spending hundreds of thousands in giving needy people food. I know the need that exists there. We have such a school in Ladygrey, and it does very useful work. But too little money is spent on this. I should like to urge upon the Minister to make further provision for it.

I notice on the estimates that £73,000 is paid to the university of Pape Town, with an increase of £5,000 on the previous year. Only £38,000 is given to the university of Stellenbosch, an increase of only £1,000 on the previous year, In the case of the Witwatersrand university it is £79,000, with an increase of £7,000 on the previous year, I want to know how, the grants to the universities of Cape Town and Johannesburg can be so much larger because the number of students do not justify it. In answer to the hon. member for Liesbeek (Mr. Pearce) I should like to say that he has spoken of persons walking about without work who have the B.A. and M.A. degree, and that I understand that the, public service desire to have people with a degree, but I think there must be a screw loose if a graduate walks round unemployed.

I am anxious about the medical inspection of schools. I know in a sense this comes under the provinces, but here we have to discuss education in its widest aspects. In the whole of the vast geographical area of the Cape Province there are only two medical inspectors for school children. It is utterly impossible for them to do the work.

The hon. member is really discussing a provincial council matter. The vote is Union education, and it has nothing to do with the provincial councils.

I just want to ask the Minister whether the amounts which appear on the estimates in connection with the taking over of industrial schools from the provincial councils are amounts that only represent grants or also amounts for extension. I ask the question because, e.g., the Transvaal provincial administration had already approved of the establishment of a large technical institution on the settlement at Hartebeestpoort, where there are large works about to be set up. Recently our workmen’s board met and instructed me to get certainty on the point. The school is, of course, very necessary there, and I should like to know from the hon. Minister if this institution is also on his programme. Then the provincial administration also has an industrial institution on De Lagersdrift. A school has been built there, the teacher has been appointed, but now the provincial council comes and says that it cannot give the equipment for the institution, because they must wait on account of the school being in a state of transition, and they can spend no money if the Union department is going to take the school over. The school is there, the teacher is there, but yet no teaching is going on. I should like to have the assurance of the Minister that, say by the commencement of the next quarter, which is close at hand, the necessary equipment will be there, furniture, and tools, so that the work can be commenced. There is a large piece of ground about 30 morgen connected with the institution, and the time has come to plough, the ground. If that is not done now then it will unnecessarily have to stand over till next year. Then as regards technical training we must be careful that we do not make it top heavy as was the case with the ordinary schools, and train too many people in one direction, without there being openings for the technically trained people. But in the practical schools we learn better to act practically in the world. It is quite a different matter. Our children are taught that labour is ennobling, and the child was taught that he can go nearly as far with manual labour as any man with his head. If we on the contrary develop technical education too much then we shall have the same difficulties as we have to-day, graduates and matriculated students who do not know where to get an appointment. We naturally take into account that our industries will develop in our country, and that room will be found for our educated young men, but I only wish to point out to the hon. Minister the danger of making technical education top heavy.

I apologize for my unwitting transgression of the rules of order just now. It is the first time I have been called to order, and I trust the importance of the matter will be a successful defence. May I approach the subject in another way? What more important subject could come before this House if the physical state of the scholars does not enable them to go on to a higher education? Am I in order now?

I am afraid the hon. member cannot do it that way either. That would be circumventing the rules.

Then, Sir, in the interests of higher education I want to draw attention to the urgent necessity throughout the Cape province of a more searching and comprehensive medical inspection of our school children. It is impossible for two medical officers to do the work and thus pave the way to higher education.

I should like to put a few questions to the hon. Minister. The first is with regard to the taking over by the Union Government of technical and industrial education. I understand that a few provinces have objected to that; the Free State have raised an objection. The provincial council of the Free State decided against it, and even sent a deputation to Cape Town to state their objections to the hon. Minister. I should like to know from the hon. Minister what the position is with reference to this matter under discussion. I have not the least objection to the Union Government taking over industrial and technical education, and anyone who has read the report of the administrative commission will not doubt for a moment that that alteration is necessary. The existing condition leads to mismanagement and double administration has caused unnecessary expenditure, but still there is a danger as regards the taking over of this education by the Union, and I want to warn the hon. Minister against it that in the course of time we will take over from the provinces their functions one after the other. We are now taking over industrial and technical education. To-morrow or the day after, a motion may probably be made to also take over native education, and further it may be suggested to even bring hospitals under the. Union. So in the end we shall find that more and more the duties of the provincial councils will be taken away, and that there will not be sufficient work left for the provincial councils to do because all the work will be centralized in the Union Government without in the meantime any provision being made for local initiative and authority in educational matters. That is the danger I see, because if in the course of years the system of provincial councils ceases to exist, then the position should be such that not only the work of the provincial council will be transferred to the Union Government, but as the Jagger report shows, a little local colour and initiative should be introduced. I want to warn the hon. Minister of the danger so that he can now lay down a principle for the future development of our education. Then I want to further support what the hon. member for Ladybrand (Mr. Swart) has said with reference to an institution for technical education in the Free State. I can assure the hon. the Minister that a great need exists in the Free State for such an institution, because the tendency exists to allow all advanced education to go in an academic direction, and there is nothing in the Free State to remind people that in our country attention should also be given to education in a technical direction, with the result that all the children study on lines of academic instruction. The beginning will be made with the establishment of a chair for commerce at the Grey College at Bloemfontein and gradually the department can grow until later the institute for technical education can be called into life. I also wish to support what the hon. member for Potchefstroom (the Rev. Mr. Fick) has said with reference to industrial education. We have in the Free State only established eight of those schools, and already find that we more than meet the demand for those who are being educated in that direction. I only wish to refer further to an industrial school in the Free State, which is one of the kind of which we should have more, namely the agricultural school at Tweespruit which the Minister has now taken over, and the object of which is to give an agricultural education to our young lads. The boy comes there when he has passed standard six, and remains two or three years at Tweespruit to learn everything which is of importance on a farm. The institution is doing very good work, and for that class of boy there is an unlimited market in South Africa. Anyone who has visited the school cannot do otherwise than come under the impression that good work is being done there. There is not a single native at the institution. The large pices of ground which belongs to the institution is worked by the pupils. All the work is done by them, also that which is usually regarded as kaffir work. There is, I think, a great necessity in South Africa for this kind of school, and I hope that the hon. Minister will especially give his attention to this matter. He will then not go wrong.

May I take the opportunity of congratulating the hon. member for East London (North) (Brig.-Gen. Byron) on his persistence in bringing up that important matter of the medical inspection of schools. It is very important to the question of higher education. We cannot expect to increase or even maintain the mental flame if we do not stoke up the physical fire. I think enough has been said to bring home to the Minister and the committee the necessity of taking this into consideration and seeing to it that there is more adequate medical inspection of all schools. I would like to know from the Minister whether he is in possession of information as to the whole cost of university education in this country, I mean both the cost of administering the institutions and educating the students who are attending them. I think it would be found that the amount contributed by the State to these various colleges and universities represents a very large proportion of the total cost. If hon. members look at the Estimates they will see that the contribution by the State which this committee is now asked to pass, to the universities amounts to no less than £362,575. I feel sure that the contribution of fees from the students does not equal that sum. I think it will be found that the State pays a very large proportion, a larger proportion that the students, towards the cost of the education of the students. If that is so, it is not a far step for the State to frankly shoulder the whole burden, for the State to take over, as the Transvaal and Free State have taken over primary education, the higher form of education as far as we are able to go. There is another reason for that, a very good reason indeed, because we lose the opportunity of bringing to complete fruition the education of some of the finest brains that we have in this country. I have yet to learn that a monopoly of brain capacity is coincident with the mere possession of wealth. I think it is in the interests of the State that it shall have at its service well-educated individuals who possess the necessary capacity to receive the higher forms of education. As it is to-day, it is only necessary for a man to be able to afford to send his son or daughter to the university for that child to receive a university education. Let the State realize that it is in its own interests to have a highly trained set of intellects in the country. I would make the entrance to the universities a competitive one. There is one other matter I would like to bring to the Minister’s notice. A little while ago, when the matriculation examinations took place there was considerable trouble in regard to the papers set, particularly the Latin one, and it was asserted in both the Transvaal and the Free State, to my own knowledge, that questions were set in the Latin paper on matters with which the students who had to sit for that examination had not even the slightest nodding acquaintance, not that they had not the capacity or the desire, but it seems to have been missed entirely by those who were teaching the boys and girls. Surely it is not an unfair thing to ask if you are going to set an examination in this or that direction that the masters and teachers of schools, who are responsible for educating the children to the point of entering the examination, should have some inkling—

I wish to point out to the hon. member that he is now discussing lower education.

Yes, it is the border line. It is very difficult to know where to differentiate.

It is just below the border line.

I am endeavouring to get these children above the border line. Unfortunately these examiners who have set the papers have made it impossible to get these children above the border line.

On a point of order, I see in connection with this matter, there is included a grant to the Joint Matriculation Board, who conduct the matriculation examination.

Which item is the hon. member referring to? The hon. member may proceed. I understand from the Minister that that is so.

I do not want to prolong this point; it is only necessary to draw the Minister’s attention to the fact. There are a tremendous number of failures that are not warranted. I hope the Minister will look into the question. There is no doubt that it is time that some hint was dropped to these people that they ought to make the examination papers coincide with the course of instruction to some extent.

I would like to draw the Minister’s attention to grants in aid of universities and colleges, page 121. There are 14 grants, of which 12 are increases, as compared with 1924-’25. There are two institutions receiving decreases, one being a native college, and the other the Natal Technical College, the difference in respect of the latter being £1,000. In 1924-’25 the Natal Technical College received £22,100; this year it is £21,100. I would like to hear from the Minister if he can give some good reason for this reduction, or if it is just another injustice to Natal. This institution derived most of its funds, originally, from private donations and subscriptions, and it has not been a drain on the State to any large extent. There are a large number of pupils attending the college, including a good number from the Free State. It is surprising to see that this is the only grant of the whole lot which shows a reduction as compared with last year. I would like the Minister to give us some explanation.

I am very glad that the hon. member for Kroonstad (Mr. Werth) has mentioned the matter of agricultural schools. I want to direct attention to the fact that we will not only require one kind of agricultural school.

The hon. member cannot now discuss the agricultural school.

The agricultural school at Tweespruit falls Under the schools that the Minister is now taking over.

May I just say that the schools that I have taken over are vocational schools, and that the agricultural schools that I have taken over are vocational schools.

I wish to point out that we do not only want one class of agricultural school, because the demand for such young men will not be too great. The farmer’s son is usually only his foreman. What the Government must do is to establish more educational schools in the Free State.

Hon. members must discuss this matter under the agricultural vote.

Before I answer the question and remarks which have been made here by various members, I wish first of all to take the opportunity of correcting a printing error in the estimates as laid on the Table. You will find that in the Transvaal £36,500 is granted and in the Free State £66,000 for vocational education. It should of course be just the other way round. I want to propose that.

It is not necessary.

I will then first answer the question of the hon. member for Hopetown (Dr. Stals). He has asked what the basis is on which the grants are made to the respective universities and university colleges. I can inform the hon. member that the grants up to 1922 were made on the basis of the expenditure of the institutions. The grants varied from time to time from £1 for every £ spent by the institution up to £2 for every £ received from other sources. In 1922 this basis was altered, and it was then provided that the Government would contribute on the basis of the fees which the university collected namely £2 for every £ of the institution. Further, £ for £ was contributed on the basis of what the institution got from other sources. That is the general basis. Then certain limits were laid down within which the Government must confine itself. In the first place the contributions of the State must not exceed by more than 10 per cent. the contributions of the previous year, and in the second place it may not be more than 10 per cent. of the expenditure of the institution for that stated year. The difference which there arises on the estimates with reference to the amounts paid and the difference in the increases that are made, all rest on this basis, and are within the regulations of 1922. The hon. member has further asked if it is a fact that we can talk of an educated proletariat. In connection with that I want to say that we are somewhat feeling about in the dark. It is nothing more than our imagination that many of our young people who are educated in the universities can find no work. Perhaps it is a very strong suspicion in some circles that there is over production. But we have no definite facts to go upon. Here and there we hear that there are graduates who cannot find employment. We cannot, however, build on it, because it exists also in the other ranks. It is, however, a matter that deserves our attention, and therefore I have already taken steps to get definite information. I approached the board of statistics and census returns which fixes the general line of action in connection with the collection of our statistics in various directions. I have requested them if possible to get statistics of the numbers of our young people that go to the various universities of how many of them later are absorbed in the professions, and how many remain idle on the market. In that way also I can get an idea of what openings there are in the various occupations. They undertook to do this, and in the future information of this nature will be furnished. It will be of great value to the Government and to the universities to come to a rational policy in order to decide whether we should allow our higher education to stand still and employ more energy in other directions. But it will also be of great use to our young people to know what demand there is in the professional walks. Those are the general steps which I took provisionally in that direction. The hon. member has also asked me how the £160,000 is going to be allocated in connection with technical, vocational, and industrial education which the Union Government has taken over from the provincial authorities. I will just reply that it was done on the advice of the provincial councils. I had to get the information from them. They made provision therefor in the past, and I decided to continue the service for this year on the same basis as last, but also with the necessary allowance for the necessary development during the present financial year. That is also my answer to the question of the hon. member for Potchefstroom (the Rev. Mr. Fick). I can only tell the House further that it was impossible for me, seeing that this kind of education did not come under the central Government, to at once lay down a policy in the beginning for the future. My scheme therefore is just to continue the institutions for the present year on the same footing as under the provincial administration, and in the meantime to go into the whole matter to settle a policy for the following year. I think that that is the only careful and intelligent way to go to work. The hon. member further asks what the position was with reference to the Free State. In reply I can tell him that it was my general agreement with the provinces in Durban that I would not control the provinces with regard to taking over of that kind of education. I had the power to do so under the Act of 1920, but l said to them that I would not use that power unless it was with their consent. I am glad to be able to say that three provinces were ready to hand over this education to the Government, The Free State was opposed to it, but the provincial council took that decision because they expected to get an extra grant from the Government because that sort of education as has been stated in the House is the most expensive. They thought that they would get the extra grants. A deputation went to the Minister of Finance, but he did not grant it and the members of the deputation told me that in the circumstances they were willing to transfer technical and industrial education to the Union Government. The only difficulty is that the resolution of the provincial council is in the way. Until the provincial council can meet to repeal the resolution the executive committee has specially asked me to keep this amount on the estimates in the expectation that the provincial council will change its opinion. It is, therefore, only a question of time and everything will come right in the Free State also. The hon. member for Ladybrand (Mr. Swart) has spoken about the necessity of an establishment of a technical institute in the Free State, more particularly at Bloemfontein. I can tell the hon. member that I have every sympathy for education in general in the Free State and also with regard to the establishment of a technical institute at Bloemfontein, but the practical difficulty of establishing a technical institute there is that Bloemfontein is not an industrial centre and that such institutions can only be established at industrial centres. There is a big difference between industrial schools and technical institutes. Industrial schools provide teaching for those who are in the commencing stage of training, but in the technical institutes education is given to people who are already employed and such people are, of course, employed where industries exist. Bloemfontein is an important town. One can almost say the heart of the Union, but I do not think that anyone will allege that Bloemfontein is very much of an industrial centre. I should also tell hon. members that there is an institution at Bloemfontein, to wit, the trade school which is a separate vocational school, and which was taken over by me and now comes under the Union Government. The institution is working in this direction, and if in future it shows capacity of life then I am prepared, as far as means will permit, to extend the institution. But it must first prove that it meets a need. The hon. member for Albert (Mr. Steytler) has asked a question in connection with the one-teacher trade school in connection with needy boarding houses, and asked if they also now fall under my department. Yes, but as far as I understand there are only two of those schools left, at Willow more and Montagu. It seems to me that the hon. member attaches exceptionally high value to those sort of schools. I do not quite share that opinion. Experience has shown, I think, that the schools are languishing, have no vitality, but, generally, I wish to say to the hon. member that we should be very careful with reference to the establishment of industrial schools. There are two sorts of schools in the Union which I think offer an unlimited field for the young people who come from them. The first is the technical institute. Young people are there trained in the vocation they are adopting. When they have worked to-day then they learn together by practice what mistakes are made and the next morning go over the work and remedy the mistake. “Practice makes perfect.” It is the most practical education that you can have. There our experienced workmen and experts in industries are formed and with the development of our industries the need for such well-trained people will become greater. The other school I want to mention is the agricultural school. Unfortunately, the idea exists in South Africa that the person to be educated in agriculture is the child of the poor white and he alone; that the children of our poor whites that have come from the country to the towns must be trained by agricultural education to again be able to go on to the land and make their living. I agree with the policy of getting the people back to the land, but if we want to make a success of agriculture in South Africa then every farmer’s son, and if possible also daughter, should enjoy proper education. In our country we have not in the past had to compete with foreign competition in agricultural matters, but South Africa has now become an exporting country and we have to-day to compete in our agricultural produce with all parts of the world that also export, and if our farmers will do this then they must also develop their agricultural knowledge as in other countries.

On what Vote is the Minister talking?

I am speaking about the branches of education which is taken over by the Union Government. Our farmers’ sons must, as in other countries, be educated in the newest and best methods of work. Therefore, we must establish schools for that education just as in Denmark, Ireland and other countries. But I was talking about industrial schools, the industrial schools of the so called “handyman,” the carpenter, blacksmith and village painter; but the opening for that class of man is limited and therefore I think we should be careful that we do not have an unnecessary multiplication of industrial schools in our country. The hon. member for Stellenbosch (Mr. J. P. Louw) has asked how it was that the increase of the grants for the university of Cape Town relatively increases so much more than those for Stellenbosch and other universities. The basis for grants was prepared in 1922 and the larger increase in the case of Cape Town is because the fees and mother revenue for the past year were comparatively greater in Cape Town. I think that as regards Stellenbosch there will be alteration because there has been an important increase in Stellenbosch during the early months of this year. The hon. member for Potchefstroom has asked me a question in connection with the school at Hartebeestpoortdam. As far as I know the provincial council has not handed over that school to me. They prepared an estimate of what the approximate expenditure would be for the following year for the Union for the schools taken over. I do not know whether this school is included. We shall in any case first have to institute an enquiry as to whether the establishment of the school is justified. In any event it must wait until next year. As to De Lagersdrift I cannot at the moment say whether that school is transferred or not. If the hon. member will come to my office them he can have the information. The hon. member for Kroonstad (Mr. Werth) has made a remark about the taking over from time to time of functions of the provincial councils and expressed the fear that in that way the existence of the provincial council is being threatened. The matter must be regarded from the point of view of what is best in the interests of the country and its people. I took up this point of view at Durban and the provincial authorities agreed with me. They concurred that hitherto the position with regard to vocational education had been intolerable, and had led to “overlapping” and double expenditure. Industries cannot be built up and extended without, at the same time, making provision for education of persons who have to work in the industries. What is more we have hitherto had no less than five different systems and five authorities in the matter of industries. Each province has had its own system of inspection and technical advisers, and each of them has had nothing to do for nine months of the year because the number of institutions is so small. The work can now be more effectively done by one technical inspector in the head office.

I think that insufficient attention has been given to the point raised by the hon. member for Benoni (Mr. Madeley). It is stated, and I think with some show of authority, that questions were put in the examination paper on matters that were not in the text books prescribed. It is an extraordinary thing; but two years ago I called attention to the fact that one of the papers set was actually wrong, and the candidates were allowed ten per cent. additional marks on their papers. I have read a good deal about the matriculation examination in other countries, and I have never heard of an examination paper being wrong; because it is generally considered that the papers have been tried first by the examiners. Now here is a second case, and the Minister should really give it some consideration. I know he cannot interfere with the examiners appointed, but he can use strong pressure to see that the examiners read the text books upon which the students are to be examined.

I am afraid this question does not fall under this vote. I would like to know from the Minister under what head it falls, because I cannot see it on this list.

I cannot say under what Vote it falls, but the Matriculation examination is held by the Joint Matriculation Board appointed by and representing the different universities, and it is in virtue of the university laws that this board exists. Anyway, it is under the supervision of the Union Education Department.

Another point which I wish to impress very strongly on the Minister is that as much as possible should be done in this country in the way of medical inspection of school children. This is a country of great distances, and in some cases the children do not get the attention which they should have, and many a child’s health has been saved by a medical inspector discovering some defect in a child’s health. Defects in eyesight have also been discovered in this way, which the parents have been able to attend to. I submit that the Minister should do all that he possibly can in this direction. There is another question. The other evening I raised my voice on behalf of the coloured race, who were being left out of the Railway Superannuation Bill, and not provided for in the way of pensions. We always talk about raising the coloured races in the scale of civilization, but what are we doing to carry that into effect? We have industrial and technical schools for Europeans, but what opportunity is there for coloured boys in this direction? I do not mean such opportunities as are provided at reformatories, but institutions where they can learn such trades and industries which come within the range of coloured people. I think the Minister will remember a very pleasant visit he paid to Port Elizabeth. I should like to know what he is doing for the Port Elizabeth technical college. There is a magnificent site for it, and the number of pupils will be very large, as Port Elizabeth is one of the largest industrial centres in the Union; in fact it has made more progress in the last ten years than any other industrial town in the Union. In proportion to its population, Port Elizabeth employs more persons in industries than any other town in South Africa. A large number of these people are coloured, and we want them to receive technical training.

On the motion of the Minister of Education it was agreed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported; House to resume in Committee to-morrow.