Mr. Speaker, I move—

That the Bill be now read a Third Time.

The hon. the Deputy Minister of Transport, who handled the Second Reading of this Bill, is unfortunately not here today. I shall therefore have to speak to the hon. the Minister of Transport about a few ideas expressed here by the hon. the Deputy Minister.

In the Second Reading debate my personal objection was that there was a lack of planning in the layout of this railway line to be constructed to provide a rail link with the new harbour area. The hon. the Deputy Minister said we were wrong; that there was not a lack of planning. He said the harbour had to be built in the first place and that an outlet had to be found from the harbour and he then asked what objection we had to it. In the second place, he said that, in any case, five routes had been investigated, which indicated that our accusation that there had been a lack of planning was totally unfounded. Sir, it seems to me as if the hon. the Deputy Minister was altogether wrong. You must bear in mind, Sir, that construction of this new harbour has been going on for a few years now. It seems to me that when one builds a new house and decides to provide for five doors in that house one has to plan as early as possible where one is going to put those doors. Surely one does not finish or half-finish the house before putting in the doors. Let me put the case like this: It seems to me that when a new harbour area is constructed it is of the utmost importance that the Administration should determine as early as possible exactly where the exit route from that harbour and the linkup with the present railway line should be. However, what do we find? Last night a resident of that particular area telephoned me and said that he submitted an application to the Cape Town City Council only six months ago to have certain improvements carried out to his house. The Cape Town City Council, which was involved in this matter, gave its consent. If this person had an extra room and/or an extra garage built, the Railways would have had to incur additional expenses to compensate for this extra room and/or garage. To me the normal procedure would have been for the Railways to have reached a decision as early as possible in regard to the new exit and that it would then have consulted the Cape Town City Council in order to prohibit any further developments from taking place in that area. Apparently this has not been done, because if this had been done, the Cape Town City Council would definitely have been aware of this fact and would not have allowed this type of development to take place there.

What is more, we have been told that there were only five outlets. If I interpret correctly the map I have here in front of me—it is an interesting map indicating the route the railway line is going to take—it seems to me as if the best of these alternatives has been rendered useless because the Railways have waited such a long time before constructing the new railway line. When we look at this map we find that, since extensions to the harbour were commenced, a new residential area called Elbowville has been established right next to the airport. There is no reason at all why the railway line could not have run through that area. But what happened in the meantime? Since construction of the harbour has begun scores of houses have been erected there and the result is that the Railways can no longer make use of that vacant land. It seems to me that all this is the result of the Railways having waited too long, having done nothing and not having consulted the necessary parties in this matter to obtain the particular outlet there. The result of this is that the people now have all kinds of problems and are going to suffer damage.

In the second place, I informed the hon. the Deputy Minister that the Cape Town City Council, the Milnerton City Council and the Cape Provincial Administration were not in favour of the particular route which has now been surveyed. I used the wrong word when I asked the hon. the Deputy Minister whether “permission” was obtained from these local bodies. I was wrong in that I used the wrong word. What I meant to say was whether the Railway Administration enjoyed the co-operation of the local bodies and whether they agreed that this was the only solution. My information is that they did not agree; in fact, that they were dissatisfied because this particular route was chosen.

In the third place, the hon. the Deputy Minister did not reply to me in regard to the following matter either. I told him that 40 families are going to lose their houses as a result of the new railway line. I asked him: Mr. Minister, do not simply expropriate; that is not good enough because it is very difficult to get houses at this stage. I made a friendly request to the hon. the Deputy Minister to try and get the Department of Community Development to cooperate in an attempt to find alternative houses of more or less the same type in a somewhat similar area. The hon. the Deputy Minister gave me no reply in that respect.

I want to mention another objection. I receive telephone calls from these people now who tell me that they have bonds on their houses granted by the National Housing Commission. The rate of interest on those bonds is 3¼ per cent. Those houses will now be expropriated by the Railways. This man will now have to buy another house and he will most probably have to take out another bond. Where is he going to get his bond from? Will the National Housing Commission be prepared to grant him another bond and, if so, will the rate of interest again be 3¼ per cent or will he perhaps be required to pay 5 per cent to 8 per cent? If he has to pay a higher rate of interest, I want to ask the hon. the Minister, who is in charge of this matter, in the first place, to see to it that these people will receive the best possible service from the Railways in conjunction with the Department of Community Development. In the second place, the hon. the Minister will have to see to it that these houseowners, 40 of them, will suffer no loss when their houses are demolished. The people involved in this matter do not want to stand in the way of progress. They realize that the harbour must be built and they also realize that there has to be an outlet, but they say that since this has to be done now, it is regrettable that they have not been consulted in the first place. In the second place, they now request that they be given the best possible compensation so that they will not suffer any loss. I trust that the hon. the Minister will do his utmost in this regard.

I can understand precisely how the hon. member for Maitland feels about this matter. This concerns his constituency and any member will be dissatisfied when 40 houses in his constituency have to be demolished with a view to the construction of a railway line. I therefore do not take it amiss of the hon. member for putting his case. As far as the planning aspect is concerned I just want to say that planning has been under way for a very long time now. In regard to the construction of the new harbour, a commission of inquiry was appointed which made a careful study of these two schemes, the Rietvlei scheme and the Cape Town harbour scheme. The commission finally came to the conclusion that the most suitable place for the construction of the new harbour was at the Table Bay harbour. From the nature of the case there has to be access, and planning in regard to the various routes which are to serve the harbour has been under way for many years. I agree that the town councils concerned have not been consulted, because this is not the practice. In any case, they will never agree to a railway line running through their area. However, five routes were investigated. Of these five routes this particular route was considered the most suitable. The hon. member was one of a delegation that came to see me about this matter and during that interview the whole of this matter was thrashed out. I think I indicated to the satisfaction of the deputation that this was the only possible route we could use.

But even so he is complaining!

No, the hon. member has every right to complain. It is his voters and his constituency, and the hon. member must plead for his voters and constituency. I concede that. I am sorry that 40 houses have to be demolished, particularly in view of the shortage of housing there is today. If there had been any other way to prevent this from happening, I would definitely have done so. However, I want to give him the assurance that my department will receive instructions to cooperate with the Department of Community Development to see in which way those people can best be given alternative housing. I am giving the hon. member that assurance. Further, I am afraid there is nothing more we can do about this matter at this stage. The new harbour is being constructed in the interests of Cape Town and in the interests of the whole country. When this harbour is constructed there must be a rail link and the only possible route is the one determined by this Bill. I am very sorry about this, but there is nothing I can do about it.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Chairman, the hon member for Wynberg spoke for a few minutes yesterday afternoon, and she reminded me of a venomous moth committing relationships murder. She also reminded me of an old nanny-goat I have on the farm. People gave her the name of Katrina: she crawls through every fence; she devours everything she finds on the garbage bean: and every bush she nibbles at, dies. I have seldom listened to anything worse than what the hon. member had to say. She incited the Coloured population

and prompted them against the Whites. If there is one thing I am tired of, it is …

Order! The hon. member may not say that the hon. member is inciting a population group. The hon. member must withdraw it.

Yes …

It is true.

Has the hon. member for Malmesbury withdrawn it?

Yes, Mr. Chairman, I withdraw it.

The hon. member may proceed.

I may not say it, and that is why I say …

Say that it implies.

If there is one thing I am tired of, then it is for Whites …

Order! The hon. member for Carletonville must withdraw the words “it is true”.

I withdraw them, Mr. Chairman.

If there is one thing I am tired of, and I think we are all tired of this, then it is of people who put words in the mouth of Coloureds and other persons. I think the Coloureds today are mature enough to speak for themselves.

*Mr. H. VAN Z. CILLIÉ: You do not listen to them.

The United Party no longer needs to sneak for them. The hon. member referred disparagingly to the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council. I think that any person who sneaks disparagingly of the Coloured Persons Representative Council today, does not know what he is talking about, and is like a blind mole, a blind mole crawling around below the ground without knowing where it is going or where it came from. That is precisely what the hon. member for Wynberg and her Party are doing. I want to say today that what this Council has achieved redounds to the credit of the Government. All praise to the Coloured Persons Representative Council and its executive! In the few years since their inception they have frequently been referred to disparagingly, as the hon. member for Wynberg did again yesterday. We, and I think they as well, can throw out our chests today. Since this Council was established the Coloureds have with the assistance of the Coloured Persons Development Corporation, made enormous progress economically. The Coloureds are acquiring a niche for themselves in the business world. I hope that the hon. members on this side of the House who will speak after me, will prove this statement with facts. The Coloured Persons Representative Council controls education. Does any one want to try to make me believe that a body which controls education does not have a task, does not have any work and can be suffering from frustration? If what that hon. member said is true, namely that the Coloured Persons Representative Council is suffering from frustration, then I say quite definitely that they are too lazy to work. But I do not believe her, because they do have a task. There are more than 500 000 Coloured children attending school, children who fall under the control of that Council. I have the figures here. There are more than 58 000 children attending high and secondary schools under the control of this Council.

And how many apprentices?

Thousands. The hon. member can also get figures in that connection from me, but I do not want to allow myself to be side-tracked now. These people have work to do, and the United Party is standing in their way. The Estimates of the Coloured Persons Representative Council amounted to R82 042 000 this year. I want to inform those hon. members that when I entered the Cape Provincial Council in 1949, the Cape Province Estimates was only R41 million. An amount of R17 million was spent on education for the Coloureds and the Whites. Do those hon. members want to try to make me, or South Africa, or the world, or anyone for that matter, believe that a body spending R82 million does not have powers? That is twice as much as the Cape Province spent 20 years ago. Then those hon. members still poke fun at this body and say that it is suffering from frustration. These people have work to do, and I am therefore asking the United Party to stop standing in their way. Give those people an opportunity to speak for themselves. I think it is a disgrace that that hon. member should go so far as to predict that she sees a confrontation between the Whites and the Bantu and that not one Coloured will stand on the side of the Whites. It is a disgrace. I think she ought to feel ashamed of herself. The one word in the Afrikaans language for which I have the greatest respect is the word “mother”. I think the hon. member should begin to think whether she is worthy of the name of “mother”.

Another argument which is used to a tremendous extent in regard to this Coloured Persons Representative Council is the fact that one-third of those councillors are appointed. The appointment of one-third of the members took place on the basis of the recommendations of a Select Committee appointed by this Parliament. It was a unanimous finding. The hon. member for Yeoville also served on that Committee. Mr. Bloomberg, who was one of the Coloured representatives in this House, moved the motion that one-third of the members should be appointed. The hon. member for Yeoville seconded that motion. Today I want to ask all sensible people, also those among the Coloured population, not to insist that this be changed. It was introduced for the ten year period from 1969 to 1979. I want to ask that we refrain from quarrelling over this. In 1978 there has to be another delimitation for the 1979 election. That will be the proper time to reconsider this matter. We have work for these people. They are finding their feet in the socioeconomic sphere. The United Party has nothing to offer them. Since the day they departed from the common voters’ roll, that party has had no moral basis on which they can offer these people anything. The six representatives they are offering the Coloureds is an even poorer dispensation than the one they had when they were still on the common voters’ roll. Today all Coloureds over the age of 21 have the franchise—man, woman and child. Why should they accept six representatives if they can be placed on a common voters’ roll and win more than half the constituencies in the Cape Province? Surely there is no morality in this matter; surely they can have no esteem or respect for these people. I want to ask why they should return to that? If one wants to talk of bitterness, hatred or frustration in this House, then there was frustration among the Coloured population in the years before 1948. There was frustration in those years because nothing was being done for them and they were being neglected. Under that Party they ended up in places like Windermere, in the Acres and in District 6. Those Coloureds were members of their party. The United Party had branches in Gordonia and elsewhere, of which the Coloureds were members. But a Coloured was never elected. In the Cape Flats the Coloureds were in the majority and here, too, in the old constituency of Castle, the Coloureds were in the majority. However, they were never afforded an opportunity of representing these constituencies. Now that matters are in the hands of the Coloured Persons Representative Council they have the power, and there is work for them to do. People who can spend R82 million, have power. They have the power in their hands, the United Party comes along and puts words in their mouth. I may not use the word “inciters” or “incitement” … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, when the House adjourned last night I was quoting from what the late Dr. Verwoerd said about the Coloured Council in 1961. He said (translation):

†The hon. member for Malmesbury has just told us that in 1978 or 1979 the Government will start thinking about this. But I would like to remind him that the Act establishing this council was passed in 1964. As the Act was passed in 1964, can we have a firm undertaking from the hon. the Minister that they will have total independence and be fully elected and have powers to tax by 1974? On the basis of the hon. member’s argument can we have that assurance?

In the meantime 12 years have passed since the promise was made by the late Dr. Verwoerd.

The executive of the Coloured Representative Council today has no more functions than that of a rubber stamp—nothing else, and hon. members know that very well. When this matter was referred to in this House by the present Prime Minister in 1967 he said the following:

*There is no denying the fact that the change-over to full control by the Coloured Representative Council is overdue, and this has done the Coloured community a great deal of harm in the past few years.

Now I want to say something in regard to the University of the Western Cape. After 12 years of its existence many questions are being asked about this by the Coloured community itself and in this regard it must be remembered that these questions concern the policy of the Government itself, which provides that every race is to be placed in the position where it can serve its own community. After 12 years there are still no signs that this university is in a position where it can avail itself of suitable qualified Coloured persons.

Name them.

There is no doubt about it that many such persons are available, and hon. members know it. With the establishment of this university the idea and the promise was that the Coloured student and lecturer would be given the opportunity to enjoy to the full the privileges which they would have enjoyed elsewhere in this regard, in fact, many more. After 12 years the question must be asked: To what extent has this thought, this promise, been kept? I ask this of the hon. the Minister. It is most deplorable that only two permanent lecturers have been appointed up to now. There are 75 members of staff at the moment, and of these two are Coloured persons who have been permanently appointed and five are temporary appointments. That is all.

It is very interesting to compare the position of the non-Whites at the other universities with the position of those at the University of the Western Cape. As regards the Bantu at Fort Hare, there are 12 permanent appointments, with two professors. At the University of the North there are 17 appointments, two senior lecturers and one professor. At the University for Asians in Durban there are 46 appointments of this kind. Normally the senate of any university in the world consists of professors and other heads of departments. This is not the case at the University of the Western Cape, however. Hon. members know that. Only White professors and heads of departments sit on the senate of that university. Once again these facts run counter to the basic idea of the Government that the Coloured academic would, as promised, be able to realize himself to the full at this institution. This just means that the institution does not serve the purpose for which it was established, i.e. to do full justice to the Coloured person in the academic field.

But, Sir, what about the Coloured Persons Representative Council itself? In 1971 they decided unanimously (translation)—

†The hon. the Minister was challenged in the Other Place on this issue last week. He told the hon. Senators in the Other Place that this idea was under serious consideration by the Government, that they were seriously thinking of turning it into a fully elected body, which we told them it ought to be in the first place, and that they were considering granting them powers of taxation. But there is no firm commitment, Sir, It is the same waffling we have had over the years. For how long must these people wait for meaningful executive powers?

*And then, Sir, what about the slogan of equal pay for equal work? The Minister declared in this Parliament last year that the Government was endeavouring to narrow the gap between the salaries of Coloured people and Whites. We accept that, Sir,

†But what kind of progress have they made in this direction? Let us just take the teachers on their own. In December 1971 the Commissioner for Coloured Affairs announced an average increase of 18 per cent, which brought Coloured teachers’ salaries up from 54 per cent to 72 per cent of those of White teachers. Having administered Coloured education now for seven years, the Government has not yet even brought the Coloured teachers’ salaries up to the 80 per cent ratio in regard to White salaries which existed at the time of the transfer of Coloured education from the provinces in 1964. So there has been no progress. Virtually, the situation has deteriorated.

*Sir, what about job reservation? The Opposition of the Coloured community to this policy is well known. We have pleaded over the years in this House for the abolition of this restriction. It is essential for the prosperity of the whole country. The Coloured people, who live in the same geographic area as the Whites and who are citizens of South Africa by birth, should certainly not be discriminated against in this way. On 31st May last year the Prime Minister himself made the significant and important statement in this House that there are no inferior people in South Africa. But what does this statement mean when our loyal and faithful Coloured fellow-citizens are discriminated against in this way?

†The hon. member for Malmesbury is quite right in one respect, although I regret having to pay him any tribute of any kind; I know him too well. There is no doubt that the greatest single concern to all Coloured political parties in South Africa today is the appalling sociological and economic state in which the majority of their people have to live. Included here is the lack of adequate education, the insecurity of life under the Group Areas Act, the mass removals without community interests being taken into consideration, inadequate wages, and so on. The point here is that the Coloured Representative Council and their executive have only the trappings of power and nothing else in this regard. The executive has no power to alter by one cent or one rand the allocation of funds in its budget from one specific public service to another; the Government does it all for them. The executive has no say whatsoever in drawing up its own bud get for its own people, nor has it the power to decide where their needs are greatest; the Government does the whole lot for them, and the hon. member knows that very well.

During the past year the Federal and the Labour Parties have voted together unanimously on a number of issues; they have gone to the Government with these requests, only to be told over and over again: “The matter is receiving attention,” and then nothing is done. They have passed unanimous resolutions on the question of housing, the powers of management committees and real local government, which they have not yet been given, discriminatory legislation, equal pay for equal work, the repeal of section 16 of the Immorality Act, pensions and allowances, compulsory education, an amendment to the Masters and Servants Act, the abolition of job reservation, sport, travelling facilities for them on the railways … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Wynberg had something to say about all sorts of things, without really saying something worth saying about anything. I just want to say this in general in regard to the points mentioned by the hon. member. She spoke of the University of the Western Cape and referred to the fact that the number of Coloured persons who have been permanently appointed as members of the teaching staff is still relatively small. She also referred to the salary gap and several other matters. I just want to tell her that there is one lesson which the world has taught us on the international level over the past decades, and particularly in the period after the Second World War, and that is that you cannot help a people to get ahead merely by showering it with a large amount of financial assistance or various political or other advantages; you can only help a people to make progress by helping it to help itself.

That is what they want.

I say you can only help a people to make progress by helping it to help itself, and that is not so easy. You do not achieve that by suddenly granting the people political power which they have not known. That is why the democracies in African states collapsed one after another. What the hon. member really wants to advocate for the Coloured population is this: Give the people a large degree of political power and sovereignty overnight. What will happen then is what happened in Africa; the democracy, which she is, after all, supposed to plead for, will collapse.

In twelve years you promised them that.

The hon member says 12 years. She has no idea of this. It took a people such as the British more than 12 centuries to develop their political system and keep a democracy going. Actually there are very few nations in the world today that are capable of this. It is a matter of concern to us that the Coloured population should develop in a planned and responsible way. Therefore certain restraining control measures have been retained by the Government in the granting of wider political rights to this population. Amongst other things there is the nomination of a considerable number of the members of the Coloured Persons Representative Council. We must bear in mind that a people does not develop as rapidly as the world wants peoples and nations to develop today. It simply is a long road, and for this the modern world has paid a very high price in the era in which we live. A country such as America, which is a rich country and which is able to render great economic assistance to many countries, has had to admit this to its cost on more than one occasion. Therefore I want to tell the hon. member, in regard to the appointment of Coloured people on the staff of the University of the Western Cape, that this, too, is part of the problem. These people do not have a long and profound academic past. If there are only two permanent appointments today, or only five temporary appointments, I want to tell the hon. member that this is simply because people with the necessary qualifications and ability are not yet available.

May I ask a question?

No, the hon. member may sit down; she has talked enough nonsense. I want to tell hon. members: The fact that more non-Whites have been appointed at other institutions which she mentioned here herself—at the University College of the North and at Fort Hare, for example—proves that this is our policy in principle, and that where the people are available, they are appointed. But if they are not available yet—and responsible people among the Coloured population would probably admit this if one should go and talk to them—it cannot be done. When they are available, however, they will certainly be appointed, just as soon as they become available. That is our policy and we can foresee that there will be dozens of Coloured professors and lecturers at the University of the Western Cape within a few decades. The hon. member with her 12 years story can forget about it now; we do not want to listen to it; it is simply cheap propaganda she is trying to make in order to create the impression that we begrudge the people that promotion. I repeat that they will get that promotion when they have proved that they are ready to render that service. We do not want to boist inferior lecturers upon the Coloured students at the University of the Western Cape; we give them the best people available. If Coloured people are not available yet, we give them White members of staff so that we can give them the best possible guidance. If this had not been the case, hon. members opposite would have tried to call it an inferior institution.

Allow me, Sir, to move on to things other than the points raised by the hon. member for Wynberg. I want to say that if we look at the reports on the activities of the Department of Coloured Affairs, the activities of the Coloured Persons Representative Council and the activities in regard to the education of the Coloured people, surprising progress has to my mind been made. There was a time some years ago when we felt that the money which was being spent on Coloured education, particularly in respect of high school education, was perhaps not being spent well enough. But in the light of the progress that has been made I just want to mention a few figures to the House. For the junior cetificate examinations there were 5 089 entries in 1964. Of these 53,6 per cent passed. In 1971 the number had risen to 10 478, but what is particularly interesting is that the pass rate had risen from 53,6 per cent in 1964 to 67,5 per cent in 1971. In other words, the standard of education of these people is rising. This is proved by the number of passes in the junior certificate examination every year. The pass rate of 65 per cent out of 10 000 in 1971 is a tremendous improvement on the rate of 1964. Then I just want to mention a few figures in regard to the senior certificate. In 1964 there were 1 344 entries, with a pass rate of only 44,3 per cent. In 1971 the figure had risen to 2 243 entries, with a pass rate of 63,4 per cent. So there was a rise in the number of passes from 44 per cent in 1964 to 63,4 per cent in 1971. Sir, I think we can pay tribute to the teaching staff for this. They certainly had a great task in raising the standard of teaching to this extent. We have reason to pay tribute to the inspectorate and the directorate of Coloured education, and to all who are charged with this service. I think these people realize today that they face a tremendous task and that there are tremendous possibilities which they can develop profitably in regard to the future of the Coloured population. If we bear in mind that there are 451911 pupils in the Coloured primary schools today—almost half a million people who are being taught—and if we think of the possibilities which this offers, we realize that that department has a very important task and that it can do very fruitful work with a view to the future. [Time expired.]

Sir, the remarks of the hon. member for Piketberg amounted to nothing less than a total vote of no confidence in the leaders of the Coloured community. Sir, it is no good any longer promising the Coloured people that in due course they will be given a fully elected council and more lecturers and things of that kind. The hon. member’s suggestion that there are fewer academically qualified members amongst the Coloured community who can take up posts at their university than there are amongst the Bantu people, is just not true, and the hon. member knows that.

Give me the names.

I have a list here that I can show the hon. the Minister. The hon. the Minister knows jolly well that these people no longer believe in the promises which have been coming from the Government over the years in this field. I want to say that the Coloured people are deeply distressed at the lack of confidence which this Government has shown in them for some time. The crux of the Government’s whole political dilemma is simply whether they are ready, with us, to make the necessary evolutionary leap towards a real sharing of power and of our economic gains with people of colour in the Republic. That is the crux; that is what it really amounts to, and neither that side of the House nor this side of the House can afford to hedge about and to hang back or to drag its feet over these matters. There are too many significant rumblings, particularly in the cities, for us to continue along those lines. Either we face the realities in the Republic and take these people along the democratic road with us as participants and as friends and as allies, or we face each other with fear and hostility, whatever the hon. member for Carletonville may say, and a sense of mounting crisis—take it or leave it. Sir, none of this Government’s pious platitudes are going to wash any more, either with the Coloured people or with anybody else. For far too long we have sat in the seats of power here dictating how the other two-thirds of the people in this country shall run their lives. I want to say that this party’s plan for consultation around a table—not just ministerial edicts or patronage—and our plan for a devolution of really meaningful power, and our plan for a relaxation of authoritarian centralized control, leaving local communities to make local decisions for themselves, are the only possible answers at this time. The present tension must be relieved and relieved soon. In conclusion, Sir, let the country be warned of the perils ahead for us if only prejudice and fear and this business of dragging our feet over the sharing of power with people of colour, are to remain our guide-lines indefinitely, as seems to be the case under this Government.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Wynberg pretends to be terribly concerned about the unfavourable disposition on the part of the Coloureds towards the Whites in South Africa.

Yes, I am very concerned about that.

But how can I, and we in this House, take the hon. member seriously, how can we believe that she is concerned about this if she deliberately encourages that unfavourable disposition with her irresponsible utterances? How can we believe this of the hon. member and of other hon. members on the opposite side of the House while they are so negatively disposed that they do not have one single positive thing to say about all the good which has been done for the Coloureds during the past years, but only create among them the feeling that they have been wronged, as if the Whites are constantly humiliating and wronging them? She is, in other words, deliberately through her actions causing this disposition, about which she says she feels concerned, to deteriorate further. I want to ask the hon. member if she thinks for one moment that the United Party policy of six representatives for those people in this House will immediately improve relations between the Coloureds and the Whites in this country? Does she think that such a gesture would have this result? I do not think there is any fairness anywhere in that system. I do not think it is in any way fair to say to a group which comprises two thirds of the total number of Whites in South Africa that their political future lies in their having six people who will manage their affairs in this Parliament. I think it is an immoral policy and that frustration lies at the root of it. An agitation for political rights in this country lies at the root of such a policy. I think we shall have the unsatisfactory relations, which we had and which we knew in our days under the policy of the United Party, over again in this country. I do not want to confine myself only to the hon. member. As I have said, what is a shortcoming in her and what is a shortcoming in the Opposition, is that their approach is so negative, and that they create among these people a feeling of having been wronged, instead of their being positive as well and accepting responsibility together with these people, and saying: “Look, this is being done; take note of it and use these things which are part of your course of development and which are being placed at your disposal, and work out your own salvation with them.” [Interjections.]

And incite the Coloureds.

Order! The hon. the Chief Whip must withdraw that. It is unparliamentary.

I withdraw it, Mr. Chairman.

I should like to try to say a few positive things today. Other hon. members on this side of the House will rise and specify the positive things this Government is working on to improve the so-called unfavourable disposition which supposedly exists, and which is being entirely exaggerated. I could mention many of these things, but I do not have the time. 1 should like to refer to one section of the activities of the Department of Coloured Affairs, a section which is not frequently discussed here since there is no political gain in it for the Opposition. That is why they never discuss it.

May I ask the hon. member a question?

No, I am not prepared to answer questions when I have such a short time at my disposal.

I should like to refer to the development and the expansion of the rural areas of the Coloureds. It is only under this Government that development in the rural areas of the Coloureds has taken place. During the past two decades dramatic development has taken place in this regard. These were bleeding to death, were becoming depopulated. There were few subsistence possibilities for the non-Whites there, and there was an even bleaker future for them in the areas. As a result the inhabitants left those areas in ever-increasing numbers and came to the cities. It was particularly the younger generation which moved away, and only a few old people were left behind in those areas. Consequently it is no wonder that we subsequently found that agitators had a field day in some of those areas. Today subsistence possibilities for the Coloureds in these areas are being created to an increasing extent, and numerous Coloured who would normally have moved away from these areas and would have created even greater problems—social and accommodation problems—here in the cities, are now remaining behind in those rural areas because there is a means of livelihood for them there. I do not have much time, but I should nevertheless like to make mention of a few things briefly to indicate what dramatic work has bene done by the Department of Coloured Affairs in this area during the past few years. On 1st April. 1952, there were 10 areas with a total extent of 691 846 ha. On 1st April, 1972, 20 years later, there were 21 areas 1 667 356 ha in extent.

Is this the new Bantus tan for Coloureds?

That hon. member is being ridiculous. Between 1910 and 1952, i.e. over a period of 42 years, an amount of R57 754 was spent in the areas from State funds. In the 20 years from 1952 to 1972 R2 607 591 has been spent in these areas to create subsistence possibilities there for the Coloureds. During the past 10 years alone 926 km of boundary fencing and 2 840 km of paddock fencing has been erected. The number of boreholes increased from 10 to no less than 590 in these areas. In 1964 there was only one irrigation scheme in the entire country which had been set aside for Coloureds. Today there are already five. During the past number of years no fewer than 834 000 trees have been planted by the Coloureds themselves in these areas, while the previous tendency was simply to destroy the trees. Since 1962 a start has also been made in these rural areas with proper town planning. Today there are already 15 towns and two town extensions planned in the areas. The income of the councils from the sale of agricultural produce in the areas has increased over a period of 10 years from R192 000 per annum to R743 000 per annum. The joint income of the councils has increased over the past 10 years from R50 000 to R200 000. These are not very great amounts which I am mentioning, but I am simply mentioning them to indicate what progress has been made in this regard during the past decade. These are things the hon. member for Wynberg does not take any notice of, and to which she never gives any attention, because there is no political gain in it. This is upliftment work which is being done. It is being done in order to keep the people in the rural areas where they can make the best livelihood and so that they may avoid the ever-increasing problems in the cities.

Before my time expires I should like to put a question to the hon. the Minister in regard to libraries. As a result of an interdepartmental committee of inquiry which reported in 1965 it was resolved that library services for the Coloureds would be furnished by the provinces on a parallel basis. I think it is time we considered conferring library services to the Department of Coloured Affairs itself. I think this creates possibilities for them. Many of the young people leaving universities, who have received a training there, could also find employment in this sphere. There are increasing numbers of people with university degrees and training, for whom employment opportunities have to be created. Therefore 1 hope that the local areas will be developed at an accelerated rate for the non-Whites so that they may have their own councils and their own city councils. These people should be used to serve their own people and to accept responsibility. Then there will be no frustration. Hon. members of the Opposition are always trying to live on the grievances which exist. Are there not grievances among the Whites as well? Are there not grievances among any ethnic group? Why is the hon. member for Wynberg always trying to encourage those things and to cultivate among these people a feeling that they have been wronged? It is in the interests of everyone in this country to seek to achieve better relations among people and not to fan the unsatisfactory relations which do exist, as she does. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, may I request the privilege of the half-hour? I listened attentively to the hon. member for Parow. He boasted here of what has been done in the rural areas of the Coloureds over the past 10 years or so. The hon. member’s figures are quite correct, for the figures he quoted to the House here, he took of course from the report of the Department of Coloured Affairs. The point which should really be made, is that if the hon. member were to look at what has happened in the sphere of agriculture of the Whites in the rural areas, he will find that over the past 10 years just as much fencing has been erected, just as many gates have been put in, and just as many dipping troughs have been built. In other words, I want to say to the hon. member that his argument means that the development which has taken place in the Coloured rural areas was not unique. It happened in the other rural areas as well. As the settlement areas of the Coloureds improved, so did those in the White areas. The hon. member for Parow asked: “If it is the case that under United Party policy the Coloureds will be given six representatives here, how will this alter the whole spirit of things in South Africa?” He asked how this would improve the so-called frustration which there may be among these people. The Coloureds had representation in this House before. They were so satisfied, in spite of the fact that they had Whites as representatives in this House, that they declared themselves in favour of the retention of their representatives in this House with an overwhelming preponderance of evidence at the time, in 1967. That is the reply to that hon. member. But I want to put another question to the hon. member. If this will not improve matters, why did the hon. member for Piketberg say last year that the Coloureds could just as well have representation in the Senate?

That is not what he said.

If the hon. member for Piketberg has said that, is it wrong of the hon. the Minister of Defence, Mr. P. W. Botha, to say it? He said it two years ago at his Party’s congress in East London. He also held out the prospect of …

This is another piece of second-hand nonsense.

The hon. members must listen now. The hon. the Minister at the time held out the prospect of the nominated Coloured representatives in the Senate at the time forming the nucleus of the representation of the Coloureds in future. If the representation which the United Party advocates will not reduce the frustration, why did the hon. member for Piketberg say what he said?

He did not say it.

To tax the hon. member for Parow on a further point, I wanted to ask him why the late Dr. Verwoerd wrote to Sir Robert Menzies and held out the prospect of the Coloureds in fact being able in due course to have their own people in this House to represent them ? If it were not …

Where did you find that?

I do not want to waste the time of the House, but I have the letter here, the letter which appeared at the time in Die Beeld. Dr. Verwoerd’s reply to this point was very clear. The hon. member for Malmesbury is now trying to be piously ignorant by saying that he does not know about this letter which appeared at the time in Die Beeld. If the hon. member wants it, I shall quote it to him. Dr. Verwoerd said (translation)—

Here it was stated very clearly. This is a revealing letter, written to Sir Robert Menzies, by the then Prime Minister of South Africa. He mentions this letter from Dr. Verwoerd in his latest book. Now the hon. member for Malmesbury is pretending not to know anything about this letter which appeared. But the hon. member for Malmesbury made another mistake as well. He said that this side of the House was in favour of at least 20 members of the Coloured Persons Representative Council being nominated by the Government.

Yes.

The hon. member says he is aware of this. I am telling him now that if he glances through the debates conducted in this House he will find that when that legislation was before this House, the United Party proposed that all these people should be elected members.

I am talking about your motion on the Select Committee. Deny it.

If the hon. member would glance at that report he will also find that one of the proposals made by the United Party was that that Council should be fully elected. Here sits the hon. member for Yeoville; he was a member of that Committee. The hon. members are saying that it is we who are now trying to exploit this frustration or a sense of grievance among the Coloureds and encourage it further. But it is not only the United Party which says that there is a form of frustration and sense of having been wronged among the Coloureds. Surely the hon. member for Parow ought to be aware of the memorandum submitted by the chairman of the Executive of the Coloured Persons Council to the Prime Minister and the Minister of Coloured Affairs. Is the hon. member not aware of it? I just want to quote from a report which appeared in Die Burger of 22nd February this year. This report read as follows (translation)—

Then follows this significant sentence:

Now that hon. member wants to pretend that it is the United Party which says this. It is the chairman of the Executive who says this. That is the whole point. If we are sitting in this House, must we not take notice of an opinion of this kind? Is this not then our own personal experience when we speak to the Coloureds from time to time and negotiate with them? I experienced this only three weeks ago when I had the honour of talking to about 16 prominent Coloured businessmen from Uitenhage. After that meeting there was no doubt in my mind that there is in fact frustration among these people. Because certain steps have been taken over the years, and are still being taken, those people feel that they are being deprived of their rights and that there is no place in the sun for them in South Africa. It is not for the United Party to fan this frustration; it already exists. There is no thing so fraught with thorny problems as in fact those matters with which the Department of Coloured Affairs has to deal. One will inevitably have a great deal of sympathy for the Secretary of this department and his officials, and also the officials of the Administration of Coloured Affairs. The criticism which we on this side of the House express and which has been expressed so far is influenced by only one objective, namely that we want to create better relations between the Whites and the Coloureds in South Africa. Our criticism has no other objective and no other basis. What we also realize is that there is an ever-increasing number of problems among the Coloureds, problems which are gaining momentum. The urgent need to find a solution is growing stronger all the time. This is essential for future relations between us as Whites and them as Coloureds. We must today consider, and I think it will pay this House to consider the major problems confronting the Coloureds. The principal question which we, in my opinion, should ask first, is whether there is any estrangement today between the Whites and the Coloureds in South Africa. Is the natural rift which may exist as a result of differences of colour closing or is it becoming wider? If there is bitterness among the Coloureds, why did it develop, and what can be done about it? I believe that this House could spend its time meaningfully if it would give attention to these few questions. To my mind the principle group among the Coloureds today, the group where there is in fact this estrangement between them and us, and where there is in fact this feeling of bitterness, is among the élite or the so-called leaders’ class. I believe that they are the people who need constant encouragement from the Whites in South Africa. They are the people whom we will need most in future to be able to accomplish a socio-economic upliftment among the mass of the Coloured people. These people must not be deterred from the course advocated by the Whites in South Africa. I believe that this is the group of people most affected by discriminating forms of legislation. That is why we find that the chairman of the Executive complains about matters such as the differences which exist in the salary scales of male and female teachers, that there has been no closing of the gap—on the contrary, that that gap is today even a little wider. It is among these people that the feeling exists that the income of Coloureds is not approaching closer to that of the Whites, but that the gap is becoming even wider. In this regard I just want to mention a few figures, quoted some time ago by Mr. Franklin Zonn when he addressed a conference at Grabouw last year. He said at the time:

Here it is very clear that while these people previously earned 42 per cent of the income from industrial development in South Africa, this figure had by the year 1970 decreased to 26 per cent. Consequently one has to find a feeling of frustration developing among those people. I want to mention another figure. Let us, for example, consider the number of apprentices in the years 1969 and prior to that, and compare it to the position among the Whites. In 1969 there were 35 961 registered White apprentices, as against an aggregate of only 1 429 Coloureds and Indians. Since then the position has improved slightly, but we are nevertheless very far from closing that gap. In other words, if we want to develop South Africa and make the best use of our human material—the Coloured is a natural artisan—-here is conclusive proof that the difference between the training of Coloured artisans and White artisans is a considerable one. Here we could create wonderful opportunities for these people by improving the facilities for them, so that it would be possible to train more and better artisans among their people. When the leaders’ group among the Coloureds, the intelligentsia, the people who have to uplift the poor, see this kind of thing happening in practice, surely one must expect a form of friction and frustration to arise among them.

The same applies to the application of the Group Areas Act. Here I should also like to mention certain figures to the hon. the Minister. Let us for example consider the number of Whites that have been moved, and the number of Coloureds that have been moved in terms of the Group Areas Act. So far 69 000 Coloured families have already been moved in terms of the Group Areas Act, while only 1 318 White families have been moved in terms of that Act.

From where?

Who lived in the slums?

Surely it is rather strange that the bulk of the people moved in terms of the Group Areas Act have been Coloureds and other non-Whites, while the smallest number moved have been Whites. [Interjections.] Whether this was right or wrong, whether this was as a result of slum conditions or not, they are the people who have been affected the most. [Interjections.] It is this group which has been affected the most by the application of the Group Areas Act. After all, we had this experience in Port Elizabeth where, with the development of Gelvandale and other Coloured areas, the South End removal took place simultaneously; people who already had houses were moved to areas where a shortage of houses did in fact develop again.

You are talking nonsense.

The hon. member says I am talking nonsense, but then he never took the trouble to read the Cleary Report. If he had read the Cleary Report he would find that what I have now said is quite true. This is one of the reasons why the hon. the Minister had that trouble last year, as a result of over-crowding and the fact that there is a shortage of housing. Nevertheless, those people were moved in terms of the Group Areas Act.

Who was moved out of a house and did not receive a better house?

Sir, I did not say anything about better housing. Is that not the hon. gentleman’s responsibility? What happened there was that people who already had houses, were moved to other areas … [Interjections.] There was a removal of people who already had houses. In Gelvandale, as a result of the normal influx or increase of the Coloureds, a housing shortage had already developed, and as a result of the removals in terms of the Group Areas Act, the position was simply aggravated. Every time it has been the Coloured race group in South Africa which has been affected to a greater extent than any other race group. Then those hon. members are surprised that there should be a sense of having been wronged and of frustration among these people. Then they are surprised to see the Coloured leaders, the teachers, the best educated people, siding with those with whom we should not like to see them side.

Hon. members want to hear further examples from me. Let me refer again to the chairman of the Executive of the Coloured Persons Representative Council. How many resolutions have not already been submitted to this Government, to which they received virtually no reply from the Cabinet or the Government?

Mention one or two of them now.

The Hansard of the Coloured Persons Council are filled with the resolutions which they submit every year to the Government, and all that happens is that they receive a polite little letter from that hon. Minister in which he states: “It is under discussion, and is being considered”, and very little happens in regard to those proposals. Then those hon. members want to know why problems and frustrations among those people develop. There is for example the question of the inspectorate of Coloured education. How many inspectors does that hon. Minister have today? I think he has in the region of 50. May I ask him how many of them are Coloureds? I do not think more than five or 10 of them are Coloureds. The hon. the Minister knows that that is also a point of friction. If it is their policy that the Coloureds should take over more and more of their own affairs, and should serve their own people to an ever greater extent, then surely by this time there ought to be more people available who could be appointed as inspectors of education. Why should this be in the hands of the Whites?

Sir, I want to refer to the latest report of the Department of Coloured Relations, for the period 1st April 1970 to 31st March 1971. Let us now put those hon. members’ assertions to the test. They say that there is no sense of frustration and of having been wronged, and what there is, is fomented by us. They say they are doing everything in their power to help the Coloureds. Let us now glance at page 2 of this report. There I read in paragraph 1.5:

Then I proceed to quote from paragraph 1.6:

1 274 White units were once again appointed and made available to the Administration of Coloured Affairs. That is the very point I want to make. A former Prime Minister said that within 10 years there would be a full-take over. If that is still the idea of the hon. members—apparently the hon. member for Piketberg has now rejected it—I want the hon. the Minister to explain to us what his priorities in this respect are, and how long it is going to take before, for example, more university staff will be appointed who are Coloureds; how long it is going to take before the Coloureds, for example, can take over the educational inspectorate, and how long it is going to take before the Administration of Coloured Affairs will also be fully in the hands of the Coloureds. Sir, if the hon. gentleman can spell out a future pattern for us, then he will to a large extent be able to eliminate the frustration which there is among the Coloureds, and give them satisfaction. He will be able to do this only if he is able to say to them: “Look, this is my programme for the next few years.” The hon. the Minister ought to have such a plan. When he became Minister of Coloured Affairs, we were friendly towards him; we told him that we hoped that he would with his moderate approach make a success of his portfolio. In the beginning we did not criticize him very much, but the hon. gentleman has been in charge of this department for a few years now, and he should now take this House, as well as the Coloured Persons Representative Council, into his confidence and spell out for us how he sees the future of the Coloureds. If the hon. gentleman does not do that then he must not expect relations between us as Whites and the Coloureds to improve. The Coloureds accepted the word of the hon. the Minister; they did not doubt his word. They tell him every day that they will try to make a success of the Government’s policy of parallel development. But, Sir, if there is no progress, then the Coloureds will have to adopt another policy. The hon. gentleman therefore has an obligation not only to the country, but also to his own party to spell out carefully for us how he sees the future of the Coloureds. Sir, last week the hon. the Minister made four admissions in the Other Place which, in my opinion, are illuminating. The first admission he made was that the Coloured Persons Representative Council ought, in due course, to become a fully elected council. Secondly, the hon. the Minister admitted that the Coloured Persons Representative Council ought to have proper powers, including the power of levying taxes, etc. He also envisaged that the link which exists today between the Coloured Persons Representative Council and the Cabinet will in due course chage; and the most important admission the hon. gentleman made, completely contradictory to what the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development had said previously, was that the Whites and the Coloureds would have to walk the same road together. Since the hon. the Minister made these four important admissions in the Other Place last week …

They were not admissions.

… I hope he will take the House into his confidence and sketch for us very clearly what the future holds for the Coloureds. Sir, our standpoint is that the existing link between us and the Coloureds, by means of the Executive of the Coloured Persons Representative Council and the Cabinet Committee, is not effective enough. In addition, I do not think it is fair to this Council that the hon. the Minister and the members of the Cabinet should be the only people who can be consulted in this respect. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister should not begin thinking now in terms of what we have proposed so many times before, namely that there should be liaison between a permanent statutory committee appointed by us and a permanent statutory committee appointed by the Coloured Persons Representative Council. I think that the hon. the Minister should begin thinking in that direction, for I think that there are hon. members on this side of the House who are just as interested as hon. members on that side in knowing how the Coloureds feel about matters, and I think that we, too, can make an important contribution, just as hon. members on that side, towards improving relations between the Whites and the Coloureds in South Africa. [Time expired.]

Sir, I have a very short time in which to react to what the hon. member for Newton Park said. He made quite a number of statements here, and I cannot reply to all of them, because I do not have the time to do so. The hon. the Minister will probably reply to some of the points. The hon. member denounced the Government for its policy. Sir, it is ironical that the hon. member propagates things here which, according to him, should be done and which would cost millions extra, while hon. members on that side are saying in the rural areas that we are doing too much for the Coloured people and that we are toadying to them. To me this is ironical; it is a double-hearted attitude. In any case, Sir, it is my duty to reply to what the hon. member said. I do not have the time to state my own views here, as the hon. member for Wynberg did in her caustic attack on the Government, on certain aspects of White/ Coloured relations. The hon. member for Wynberg said things here about which, considering her own record, she would, if one were to hang a mirror in front of her, blush far more than the average young lady of under 18 does when she gets her first kiss.

She is no longer capable of blushing.

Sir, the hon. member for Newton Park spoke about White/Coloured relations. He said, too, that the position of the Coloured people had improved remarkably. I also say that their position has indeed improved remarkably. It is quite correct that at one stage there were four Coloured representatives here, but the evidence we received was not that the Coloured people were satisfied with their services; our evidence was that the Coloured people wanted to retain them here because they had been led to believe that this was all they had and that they should retain their representatives here in Parliament. But as regards real benefits which could arise for the Coloured people from their representation here, many Coloureds said that they were not satisfied.

The hon. member referred here to views expressed by Mr. Treurnicht and Mr. Botha on the possible representation of Coloureds in the Other Place. Sir, these are matters which are in fact discussed because we, as a party, afford our member the opportunity to speculate from time to time, but this is not party policy. Mr. Botha took the Senate as his point of departure at the time and said he felt the time had arrived for reform, but he said no more than that. Dr Verwoerd, in his letter to Sir Robert Menzies, mentioned the question of Coloured representation in this Parliament as one of the possibilities we had to investigate in the future. He did not set his personal seal to it. Dr. Verwoerd was a wide-ranging thinker he considered all aspects. He thought about these matters day and night and had a balanced approach, and accordingly this was an aspect which had to be considered, as hon. members on that side are now considering it. However, we on this side feel that it will not be a good thing, and Dr. Verwoerd also rejected it. It is not necessary to argue about the question whether the members of the Coloured Persons Representative Council should eventually all be elected members. We are agreed on that. But in the initial nomination of the Coloured Persons Representative Council, we had to deal with political realities.

No government will allow itself to be destroyed by a party which, even before the election of the council, said that it was going to enter the council with the express purpose of destroying it. Do hon. members on that side think that the National Party is politically so stupid as to appoint persons who are going to destroy that body which it created for the Coloured people? I have proofs that they said so. Therefore hon. members on that side may as well forget that idea. One must take political reality into account; it is something we simply have to face. We find proof of this in the history of the entire world during the past 100 or 200 years. We have thoroughly examined the matter of the frustration that is mentioned, the memorandum of the Coloured Persons Representative Council. All the aspects of the matter have been noted.

As far as memoranda on frustrations are concerned, the following should be borne in mind. Hon. members are supposed to know about the many deputations that sometimes come to see one with memoranda that speak of frustrations, and hon. members will be able to testify that such memoranda must first be valuated in the light of the particular information of that deputation, for example, whether or not there is ignorance of certain matters, and whether or not the information is correct. This evaluation will also depend on whether one has a balanced judgment. This matter was discussed around a table and not passed off in a high-handed manner. A consensus of opinion was subsequently arrived at between us and the leaders of t^e Coloured Federal Party, the Coloured Republican Party, and the Coloured People’s Party. However, the leaders of the Coloured Labour Party believe that they can stand aside, can merely initiate boycotts and can refuse to negotiate with the lawfully elected government of a country. Yet they think it will get them somewhere.

There is a sense of frustration among certain of the élite, the so-called élite, of the Coloured people. However, there is also a sense of deep gratitude among the members of another section of the élite, the right-thinking people. It is true that there is a sense of frustration, but it is mainly as a result of ignorance, lack of understanding, external factors and the fomenting of supposed grievances and through a political kingdom being held up to these people as being the be-all and end-all—just as Nkrumah of Ghana held it up to his people, but where did he end up? This political kingdom is held up to the people before they are fit to play their part in all spheres. We are seeking better relations. Of course we are all seeking better relations. Nor do I find it astonishing that we differ in our search for better relations. However, in this period of multiple race relations problems, enormous responsibility is required of us. I want to appeal to the hon. the Opposition, in its discussions with Coloured leaders, to stop drawing a dividing line between the Federal Party and the Labour Party, and to stop collaborating with those people who have specifically declared themselves against the Government, against the Whites and against the policy of group representation, against the policy of the creation of a separate nation for the Coloureds. [Interjections.] I have the proofs here. Who are the people with whom they co-operate?— Mr. Curry, who wants to serve under a Black government. He does not mind that; they must only be one community, and there is nothing wrong with a Black government. The hon. members of the Opposition had a meeting with the Coloured Labour leaders in Durban, but it was not stated what they discussed.

We have discussions with all the people! [Interjections.]

Wait a minute. When you wanted information about what was going on in the Department of Coloured Affairs in regard to housing, you did not come to the department, which could give you all the information, which would have taken you to those places so that you could form a balanced opinion. The hon. members did not come to the department so that they could form a balanced opinion. No, they placed themselves under the supervision of Mr. Curry of the Labour Party and he took them to Macassar. Two weeks later I had to learn there that some of the people who had co-operated in that transit camp, where hundreds of people who previously lived in shacks are now living in 528 reasonable houses, do not want to cooperate and are stubborn. The hon. members must stop adopting this irresponsible approach, must stop collaborating with people and wooing them …

Do not talk nonsense. [Interjections.]

They must not collaborate with people who believe in one thing only, in just one word—integration. By this “integration” these people mean social mixing and biological amalgamation. [Interjections.] These people understand it better than all of you. The hon. member for Wynberg had so much to say today. Her speech yesterday evening, to my mind, was a matter of playing to the gallery. She mentioned how we were to conduct ourselves towards these people and how we were to foster goodwill. Then she mentioned all the things they do in terms of their approach. Has this hon. member forgotten that she recently learned a few lessons in America? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Deputy Minister has been devoting his attention to certain political aspects in relation to the Coloured people I want to deal with another aspect of our relationship to and with the Coloured people and that is the matter of education.

I believe that in the uplift of the Coloured people one of the greatest needs is the one of education. There is at the present time not only a great desire but also a tremendous urge on the part of the Coloured people to raise their standard of living. They as much as any other group are determined that their standard of living will rise. I believe that in any approach in our relationship with the Coloured people emphasis must be placed very squarely on the question of education and yet more education. If we hope to place the Coloured people in a position where they will be able to become fully involved in the build-up of the great industrial development that surely lies ahead of South Africa, great emphasis has to be placed on the extent to which we can provide educational facilities for them. I believe that probably the most important task that we have is to give these people the education that will enable them to play a full part in helping our White industrialists to build up our export trade, which is probably the most important challenge which lies ahead of us. At the present time one of the most serious problems facing the country is a serious shortage of artisans. Amongst the Coloured people we have a tremendous labour force, which, if properly handled, can in fact provide a great deal of the artisan force which is so urgently required by our industrialists. This of course means educating the Coloured people to the highest possible level.

I want to deal with one particular aspect of education for which I believe the Coloured people have a very special aptitude, viz. technical training. In this field there is a lamentable shortage of facilities. I would be interested to know from the hon. the Minister whether he agrees with my contention that there is in fact a lamentable shortage of facilities for training Coloured artisans. As a result of the shortage of facilities there is also a lamentable shortage of trainees in this particular field. I have figures which have been provided to me by the Department of Coloured Affairs, figures which are indeed interesting to look at. At the present time in South Africa there are only 33 Coloured apprenticed welders and 105 apprenticed electricians. In the field in which we are making the greatest progress, namely that of carpenters, there are 1 023. But in regard to the particular field which I want to discuss with the hon. the Minister, namely that of motor mechanics, there are, in the whole of the country at the present time, only 124 motor mechanic apprentices.

This is why I say there is a lamentable shortage. It is not because the Coloured people do not want to offer themselves to be trained; they simply do not have the place where to go to get the training that is so urgently required. The result of this is, as the figures I quoted here indicate, that there is a tremendous shortage. The figure falls far short of what is potentially possible. It falls far short of the potential or the need for these people. What is interesting is that sometime during the session I saw an advertisement which appeared in one of the English-language newspapers. It said: “Wanted Urgently: Coloured and Bantu operators, carpenters, welders, blasterers, electricians and mechanics.” It is headed “Wanted Urgently”. I have just given hon. members the figures to show how few of these people are in fact available to fill these posts that are urgently required to be filled. In this case it was with the Department of Water Affairs. The extraordinary thing is that when I asked this question of the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs, he gave a detailed answer of the position, but the last paragraph of the answer reads—

The point I am making is that the Department of Water Affairs, like many other departments, urgently need these people. Somebody put the advertisement in by mistake, but the need for the Coloured artisans and Coloured people is no mistake whatsoever. So I say there is this urgency to improve the training facilities for Coloured artisans.

The matter I want to discuss more pertinently with the hon. the Minister this afternoon is the question of making training facilities available for Coloured motor mechanics in Port Elizabeth. I mention this particular area because the motor industry forms a very vital part of the economic life of that city. I would imagine that this should be a very good place to make a start. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that at the present time we have there a technical college for Coloured people. That technical college at the present time is only probably half occupied. There are several halls that are available and which could be used for establishing a technical training school for training Coloured mechanics. I want to inform the hon. the Minister also that the need for Coloured mechanics is so urgent that the motor industry there is prepared to make a very big sum of money available, in the region of R5 000 or R6 000 at this stage, for providing the equipment for the training of those Coloured people who wish to follow a profession in the motor industry. I know that the hon. the Minister will have a problem. At the present time, under the Apprenticeship Act, it is not possible to have a Coloured mantrained by a White journeyman. I realize that there is this problem. It is a serious problem, but I think we have to find ways and means of circumventing this problem. My suggestion to the Minister is that if we can establish a training school of this kind for the training of Coloured mechanics, they should attend this school on the same basis under the Training of Artisans Act as we have at Westlake in the Cape Peninsula. At Westlake they do intensive training, in this case they do mechanical training. When they have completed the course they go out to work in the workshops as trainees. Then they become eligible to do their trade test in due course. In this way it will be possible to establish a nucleus of trained Coloured mechanics. I know that ownership of motor vehicles amongst Coloured people is increasing by leaps and bounds every year. I can see no reason at all why, through the Coloured Development Corporation, sums of money cannot be made available to potential garage owners to establish garages in the Coloured areas and employ these mechanics. That would give a base for training future Coloured mechanics in terms of the Apprenticeship Act. I hope that the hon. the Minister will give this matter serious thought. I hope that he will find time during the recess to visit Port Elizabeth and see what can be done there. I believe that if we can establish this, if we can make it possible for Coloured mechanics to be trained extensively, we will not only be doing a service to the motor industry in South Africa, but we will also be doing a great service to the Coloured people, who need this higher skilled employment very urgently. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the previous hon. speaker will in due course be answered by the hon. the Minister on certain of the matters he raised. I shall therefore proceed with my argument. I was reminding the hon. member for Wynberg of what she encountered and learned in America last year. At the North Western University she tried to make a speech, but the militant Black students simply did not allow her to do so. She was terribly amazed that her White lady friend’s reaction was as follows—

I was making no overtures at all.

Now I should just like to tell the United Party that that is what is going on today among the Black students, the Coloured students and the Indian students, the future leaders, because the Black students have now also contaminated our Coloured universities with the new idea of “Black Power”. Last year, Barney Pitiyana, a former chairman of the South African Students’ Organization, wrote the following—

Then I also want to quote what Steve Biko, a subsequent chairman of SASO, said. These are the people who are today determining the policy of the Black students, the Coloured students and the Indian students. They are the intellectuals. He said—

It goes on in this vein. Then he says—

These are people who are at liberty here—

There we have it now: Integration, but subjugation to the Black man. This is what these people are aiming at. It is the antithesis of the homeland story. Now I just want to tell that hon. member that she does not have a realistic approach to what these people really want to do.

Then I just want to say something—and I think it is only fair—about this homeland idea that we sometimes hear from particular quarters. The Government rejects this idea because it is of no practical importance and is by no means capable of being implemented in practice. It is not National Party policy and anyone expounding it, whether subtly or otherwise, is not expounding policy. It started with Dr. Verwoerd. He was the first person to reject it. In 1963 he rejected it in unequivocal terms. I quote from the book Verwoerd aan die woord (p. 603) (translation)—

I want to say this to both sides now, so that hon. members may know it.

Say it to them.

Not to them. This is the policy of the Hertzog Party and the Hertzog Party is the United Party’s ally when action is taken against the National Party. In other words, it is an extension and a further development of the United Party’s policy of double-dealing and double-heartedness. I know my time is very short, but I think the policy of parallelism of the National Party is well-known. Many people try not to understand it, many cannot understand it, and those who do not know how it operates, reject it summarily, especially if they are in any case opposed to the party as such. The hon. member for Wynberg said, “There are no normal channels of communication any more”. Surely she heard that we created the liaison machinery in 1971. It started with liaison between the Prime Minister, together with the Minister and myself, and the Executive of the Coloured Persons Representative Council. We have extended it this year. This year these people brought forward their own ideas, because we told them they should tell us how we should make contact with their people on a broader basis so that we may know what their grievances are and what they want to say. They then came forward and had the privilege to put their problems to each Minister and to exchange ideas on an equal basis on the problems their people have from day to day. In other words, how can the hon. member say that the general channels for communication are not there any more? Does the *hon. member know that about a week ago we received a deputation of about 20 people from Natal? They came to see us and they were not really Government sympathizers. For the first time this system is beginning to function. Those people were very satisfied when they left, because they finally acknowledged that the National Party was honest with them. We do not give them representation in this Parliament, but we give them the human right any person has to submit his needs to the highest authority, so that attention may be given to them. If the hon. member wants to say that the problems of these people do not receive better attention than they did ten years ago, he is completely off course. Ten years ago the representatives the Coloured people had here were largely anti-Government, which gave rise to agitations. It will be the same with the six who are to sit here under United Party policy. It will create White resistance, nothing else. If things are as they sometimes are in the Coloured Persons Representative Council, because people do not prepare themselves well, it will create White resistance. It does not create White resistance now, but White sympathy, because these people do not come forward with extraordinary demands, but with demands which closely affect their daily problems. I do not want to go into the progress which has been made in these 12 years. To refer to Dr. Verwoerd is, in my opinion, sacrilege in the sense that the hon. member said Dr. Verwoerd promised to do certain things, while he promised nothing of the kind, but only said that he would like to see us make progess and to transfer the matters affecting these people personally, to them within ten years. The position is that the matters affecting them intimately were transferred to them last year. That was done within ten years. In other words, we achieved that goal. There are still shortcomings in many other respects. Over here we have the hon. the Minister of Community Development, who admits that he still has very many problems in regard to housing. However, we are proceeding, and proceeding very rapidly, to provide this housing. However, do hon. members on the opposite side take into account the fact that the urbanization of the Coloured people is taking place at a much faster rate than it is humanly possible to provide housing for them? Are you fair when you express opinions and pass judgment on that? Our ultimate object of peaceful co-existence is the same as that of the vast majority of Coloured people, who, with us, today desire ultimate peaceful coexistence. We shall achieve this with the right attitude, even if we should sometimes have to exert ourselves to the utmost to show understanding in more than one respect for ignorance or for precipitate demands when these occur. Demands will be made and there will be some frustration, but we shall solve these things by means of consultation and by exchanging ideas with each other irrespective of the spoke-in-the-wheel methods, irrespective of foreign influences, and irrespective of the wrong things influencing these people from the outside in order to incite them against us. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, since it is the Department of Coloured Affairs’ primary object to facilitate the development of our Brown people, to uplift them, to improve their standard of living—and, Sir, what a big task do we not have in this respect as far as the general masses of our Brown people are concerned!—there are many means one can employ to achieve this object. In the first place there is education. There are several hon. members here who mentioned education, and I shall not go into the matter further. That is perhaps the most efficacious means. Then there are the health services, which are also absolutely essential. In this respect I should like to say that we shall have to speed up activities aimed at establishing a medical faculty at the University of the Western Cape where we can train Coloured doctors; because the position that has now arisen no longer makes it possible for our White doctors to meet the needs of the Coloureds and the Whites. Another means of upliftment is accommodation. I believe that decent accommodation is absolutely essential if one wants to live decently. I know very well that this department is not responsible for the building of houses. The Department of Community Development does that. But in the process of supplying housing, which is not merely a question of the erection of the building, this department is nevertheless involved at so many points that I should like to say a few words in that respect.

Firstly, I want to thank the Department of Community Development for what it has done for the Coloureds in that respect.

You don’t mean it.

I mean every word I am saying. This department has done so much for Coloured housing …

Come to Natal and have a look.

I shall also be telling the hon. member something that his people said at Oudtshoorn. This department has done so much for Coloured housing that the other population groups are reproaching us because too much is being done for the Coloureds. [Interjections.] While the United Party is now getting angry about this I want to tell them something: During the recent election at Oudtshoorn I went along to canvass for votes for the National Party.

Oh, my!

Yes, and I am proud I could do so. The result proved that we did some good work. I went to more than one person, asking whether the United Party had already been round. The reply was: “Yes, they have been.” My next question was: “Did the United Party state their policy on the Coloureds to you?” “No,” was the reply, “we were only told ‘look at what the Government is doing for the Cape Coloureds’”.

That is not true.

I encountered such people; I can take the hon. member to them.

Prove it.

You have my word for it.

That is enough.

That is the kind of propaganda the United Party makes when it wants votes, and wants to retain votes, in the rural areas; but other than that the United Party never pays any attention to the Coloureds. In the past it has had a lot of time; the United Party had many years in which to show their true interest in the Coloureds. What did they do? Their interest went as far as selecting a flashy car on polling day, and then the United Party women from the Peninsula and elsewhere drove them to the polls. When they had finished voting, they took them back and allowed them to return to their hovels; then they were satisfied with them; then the United Party had done its work for them. But there was no further interest. Their interest in the education of the Coloureds only went so far in the past as to have them establish evening classes to help the Coloureds to sign their names, because if they could sign their names they could go onto the voters’ roll and vote for them. They had no further interest in whether they could read or write.

Were the universities closed to them?

That hon. member must not say anything about the universities. When we established the universities for them, and created an opportunity for the Coloureds who could otherwise never have obtained any university training, those universities were regarded as “bush colleges” by them. It was then said that the Coloureds were mentally prepared in advance for being inferiors and that they were being sent to inferior institutions.

As far as the question of housing is concerned, I want to reiterate that the Department of Community Development has done a tremendous amount for Coloured housing. On reaching many of the cities and towns one sees massive housing schemes being built for Coloureds. It is something that cannot be compared to anything we have ever had before. In particular I want to mention some of the smaller towns, for example Mossel Bay. Anyone who is interested—I would be glad if the hon. member for Port Natal would just take the trouble—must go to Mossel Bay and see what is being done there as far as Coloured housing is concerned.

Mossel Bay is a fine place, but the member is not much good.

If he were to have a look at Mossel Bay he would be able to eliminate some of the ignorance he is displaying here.

In spite of the efforts the department has made to provide housing, we nevertheless still find ourselves always falling far short and we find we do not have enough houses for the Coloureds at the moment. With this Committee I should like to look at the reasons for that phenomenon. Why do we still have this back-log and the shortage in spite of the colossal attempts that have already been made to put this matter right? There are two reasons in particular. I hope I shall be able to touch upon both of them. The first reason is the tremendously high birth-rate that we have amongst the Coloureds; the birth-rate is so great that we can also speak about a Coloured population explosion. I think the growth rate amonst the Coloureds is at present set at 3,2 per cent.

It is the highest in the world.

It is double that of the Whites. I believe it is the highest in the country, and I think the hon. member for Carletonville is right when he says, by way of an interjection, that it is the highest in the world.

Except for Mexico.

A growth rate of 3,2 per cent means, in reality, that there is a doubling of the population within 14 years. This is something really formidable. If one compares it with the present growth amongst the Whites, where a doubling of the population takes place once in 38 years, one can see that this matter is somewhat out of proportion. I believe, in the first place, that the rapid increase in the Coloured population is responsible for the housing need. At Stellenbosch and other places semi-detached houses are being built for the Coloureds. As far as that is concerned, I believe that in the case of a Coloured family with 12 children it is essential to give such a family two houses, because one house cannot accommodate them.

If we are to solve this problem there is only one thing to do, as I see it, and that is for us to tackle family planning here at a very high level. We must do something positive about it; we must give it a very high priority, because otherwise this problem is not going to be solved; it will only get worse in future. I believe that everyone—Coloured leaders, Whites and anyone else in the country—who really has the progress of the Coloureds at heart, has a part to play. It is a difficult matter, because to a certain extent it affects the state of mind of the population group …

Frustration.

No, it is the opposite of that. It is a state of mind that one must try to get close to and overcome. To sum up: We want to tell the Coloureds that it is so much better for the Coloured family to have four children, who can be brought up nicely and properly, than to have eight children and to live in poverty, the children being poorly brought up, with everything that entails. If one has a good look at this matter one cannot but say that it is in everyone’s interests, particularly in the interests of the Coloureds, to realize that smaller families are worth so much more as far as they are concerned. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member for Mossel Bay was much better at speaking about the question of the development and the upliftment of the Coloureds than about the question of party politics as far as the Coloureds are concerned. He told us that in his day the United Party allegedly wooed the Coloured electorate.

Definitely.

He says “definitely”. He ought to be old enough to remember how a Nationalist Party member of the House of Assembly was brought into this House by the Coloureds.

That really is an old story.

The fact that it is old. Sir, does not make it any the less true, and the hon. member realizes it too. Up to a few years ago the Nationalist Party was as anxious to get the votes of the Coloureds as any other party. [Interjections.] I now want to leave it at that. I do not want to argue with the hon. member about that; it is no use doing so. We are living under a brand new dispensation, and the quicker the hon. member realizes it, the better.

This afternoon we spoke about the upliftment of the Coloureds. The hon. member for Parow told us about everything that is being done for the Coloureds. I do not want to tell him he was at times being funny speaking as he did about the trees and the wire fences; I am glad this has been done, but it does not mean much, because this was normal development in the rural areas. There was talk of the education of the Coloureds, which I shall call the socio-economic upliftment of the Coloureds. We can argue about whether we are doing sufficient, too little or too much upliftment, but there is one fact the hon. the Minister must agree with me about, i.e. that the higher one uplifts the people socio-economically and the higher one pushes up their level of education, the greater becomes their desire to have a say in those matters relating to their destiny. It is specifically here that we find our hon. friends opposite shying away; they know they do not have the answer or, if they have the answer, they do not want to give it to us. Those are the facts. To tell this Committee and the people: “We do not know; we must leave the future political dispensation of the Coloureds to our children”, is surely nonsense. To say, like the hon. member for Piketberg, that we want to give political rights to the Coloureds overnight, is the same brand of nonsense, because I can tell him that on a larger scale they are giving political rights to the Bantu overnight. He ought to know that for a 100 years the Coloureds have shared the same political ground with the Whites in South Africa. He surely knows this. I say again that we can argue about that, but this we cannot argue about: The higher the Nationalist Government uplifts the Coloureds socioeconomically, the heavier and more strictent will be the demand for a voice in those matters relating to their destiny. We cannot escape that fact. Where do my Nationalist friends stand now? They are the people who base their whole national viewpoint, their so-called relations politics, on the statement that “what I myself have, I do not begrudge others”. To that we must add the development of an individual state, because they do not want political integration. The hon. the Deputy Minister said there is no such thing. We surely know there are important people in that party, people like the hon. the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions, who now still believes in a Colouredstan. I have an idea the hon. member for Waterberg is not very far from that viewpoint either, and I do not blame him. That hon. member comes along and states his point, but where does the Government stand? It does not have a point to state, and therefore it states bashfully: “We do not know”. Sir, this afternoon I want to frame it in these terms: The Nationalist Party does not have many choices left. When it comes to the relations politics in South Africa, as far as the Coloureds are concerned, it does not have many choices left. On the one hand one has the policy of apartheid, as one finds in the Government’s approach to the Bantu, with an individual State area for the Bantu where he can realize himself politically. On the other hand one has full integration. Those are the two poles which, throughout the years, have been put to South Africa as the only alternatives. The Government has already told us that it cannot follow the Bantu line as far as the Coloureds are concerned; the Government has already told us that it does not want intergration. What remains then?

Supremacy.

What alternative remains? None, except the way the United Party has been proclaiming throughout the years, and that is that the Coloureds and the Whites must meet the future together.

With six M.P.s in this House?

Sir, that hon. member now comes along with the story of six M.P.s: I have an idea the hon. member for Worcester was a teacher, in spite of the fact that he is a leading figure amongst the Rapportryers.

You speak of a new dispensation. Do you think that six MJP.s for the Coloureds under your dispensation is enough?

The hon. member wants to come and tell me that six M.P.s do not mean anything …

You are discriminating.

… but six M.P.s are better than nothing. Incidentally, why did his noble leader of a few years ago, the late Dr. Verwoerd, specifically promise the people that the four Coloured representatives would remain here? The hon. the Deputy Minister says it was not a promise. Of course it was a promise that they would remain here. Sir, I just want to add this: I am convinced that the Nationalist Party knows there are only three alternatives. They do not want the Bantu line for the Coloureds; they do not want integration, and what remains is the United Party line, but they do not have the courage to tell the public that some time or other they will again have to steal the United Party’s policy. Sir, the time will come when hon. members on that side will see that I am right. They want us to vacate our policy so that they can move in. That is all they want to do. We shall not vacate our policy; we shall be sticking to our policy, because it is the only alternative that remains. The hon. the Minister owes this House a reply as far as the future of the Coloureds is concerned. It is not good enough to come along and tell me that my children must work it out. He is the person who is responsible for 2 million people in South Africa. He is responsible for 2 million Coloureds that are members of Western civilization, and when he says he does not know where they belong, then, as the English would say, “he is very definitely begging the issue,” and the quicker we realize it the better for South Africa. Sir, the hon. the Minister is a man of many plans. A moment ago we heard here about Oudtshoorn, where he had a plan for everything.

He ran away from that.

Yes, but he will not get away with it today. Some time or other he will have to indicate the plan to us, and this is where he can do so. Sir, socio-economic upliftment does not mean everything; it does not do any good for hon. members on that side to laugh at our six Coloured representatives, because that idea was endorsed in the past by leading thinkers on their side. It was even proposed that the representatives could be Coloureds. Sir, one can uplift the Coloureds socio-economically just as much as one wants to, but one would find, in the course of time, that the frustration amongst the Coloureds, as a result of the lack of political representation in this House, would be so extreme that it would even impede the socio-economic upliftment of the Coloureds, and that is what we in South Africa must guard against. We want balanced development, and the way the Government is carrying on now it cannot satisfy anyone.

What difference would six representatives make?

I cannot believe that anyone in this House can stand up and speak of political honesty if he tells the Coloureds: “I am prepared to give the Bantu their own country and their own independence, but I am placing you, the Coloureds, on the road to nowhere.” [Time expired.]

Sir, the hon. member for Maitland is truly a political acrobat of great dexterity. For ten minutes he has succeeded in not saying what he wanted to say. Our difficulty throughout this debate has been that little of a positive nature has been said about Coloured policy from the Opposition side. Sir, that is the position here in the House and it is also the position outside the House, and therefore it is difficult for hon. members on this side of the House to discuss the positive aspects, of which there are so many today. I venture to say that the Afrikaner Nationalist has an extensive and special understanding of the Coloureds’ aspirations, their problems and the various shortcomings that still exist today in the Coloured community. I think that this is demonstrated practically from time to time, as has again been the case with this action on the part of the Mission Trust. Sir, in earlier years my people were also impoverished, and many opportunities were closed to them, and therefore we can understand the Coloureds’ frustration. [Interjection.] Sir, the post has already arrived from Port Elizabeth; perhaps the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central’s speech is in his letterbox. He may go and fetch it and make his own speech, and then there will be no need for him to sit and make that noise in one of the back benches. We also had a group of people in our own ranks who were, economically speaking, at the top of the ladder, people who looked down on the ordinary impoverished Afrikaner who sought escape in the English social and cultural structure. Sir, I do not want to mention those people by name. Perhaps I should mention only one of them, because in the process there were probaby also Van Breda’s, just as there were Van der Bijl’s and Cloete’s, arch-jingoes who are today still jingoes who do not share in the emotional wealth of the Afrikaner. That specifically is the great problem as far as Coloured nationhood is concerned, i.e. that there is also a top layer amongst the Coloureds consisting of people who are not prepared to reach down to help up the less endowned members of their race, but would much rather, like my predecessors, perhaps, seek their escape in the White community. It is specifically for these Coloured jingoes in that community that the hon. members for Wynberg and Newton Park are acting as spokesman today. Today I specifically want to refer to what the hon. member for Wynberg said yesterday evening. She said—

And that is the hon. member’s definition of the Federal Party.

It is an insult. [Interjections.]

Order!

She then follows this up with her definition of her own political playmates and states it as follows—

Do you see how the hon. member is trying to play the groups off against each other? Do you see the contempt with which she refers to the “working class who are normally divorced from the whole business of politics”. This is typical of what her hon. colleague, hon. Senator Horak, does with his reference to the “deep platteland”. Her object is to try to create a gulf between various Coloureds. And it is specifically this hon. member who yesterday evening, in the dying hours of the debate, came along with a very pious definition of what “citizenship” actually means. Speaking very good Afrikaans, she told us the following—

That is S. P. Cillié’s definition.

I want to ask the hon. member whether she accepts the implications of that definition as she stated it. Does she accept the implications?

Why should they be second-class citizens?

The hon. member is saying, in other words, that she accepts the implications of that definition of citizenship. She accepts them in the full context, as she herself and the United Party see the question of citizenship. What are the implications of this definition as seen in her context? It surely implies joint political rights. Is that correct?

*Mr. S. F. KOTZÉ: Is that not true?

It surely means that if one wants to exercise joint political rights there must be a common voters’ roll and it means there should not merely be six representatives elected on a group basis. It surely means that there should be freedom as far as residential areas are concerned—mixed residential areas. It surely means that there must be mixed schools. Does the hon. member for Wynberg accept this? [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

Do you not?

Order!

Do you see these empty phrases that we have to put up with? Here a definition of citizenship is given in great piety as if that is her standpoint, but when one points out the implications she is simply not prepared to stand by those implications. These are empty phrases that are so typical of the hon. member, in particular, and of her party. It is actually an attempt to put separate development into reverse gear. Our problem is that with her humanistic view, and her simplified over-emphasis of human rights, she is not only making ill-use of the Coloureds for her own political arguments …

Rubbish!

She is also doing the Coloureds a disservice, a basic disservice. It is also the same problem caused by the hon. member’s kindred spirits at the university of Cape Town and similar universities. I am speaking of the vociferous minority, who are abusing that small group of Coloured students at the university of Cape Town to try to break down all existing orders whether it be the Intervarsity, or any other matter at any other level. I specifically want to confine myself briefly to this small group of students still present at the open universities. Statistics indicate that for the 1970 academic year there were still 223 Coloured students admitted to open universities. 121 of these 223, i.e. 54,2 per cent, took a degree course in medicine. At the University of Cape Town alone there were 84 students out of a total of 167, or about 50 per cent enrolled for the same course. The hon. the Minister’s predecessor, Mr. Marais Viljoen, declared as far back as 1969, in the discussion of this Vote, that progress was being made in the establishment of a medical faculty at the University College of the Western Cape, and that the spade work had already progressed. In the meantime there have been quite a few complications. The University of the Western Cape has grown, not only as far as its number of courses are concerned, but also with respect to its student complement. The number of students has increased from 164 in 1960 to 975 in 1970. The university has also grown in status, from what was initially called a “bush college” by the Opposition. to a fully-fledged university with a exceptionally high status. I am now of the opinion that there are enough students for the establishment of a medical faculty. I therefore seriously want to advocate to the hon. the Minister that a medical faculty be established at the University of the Western Cape. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just resumed his seat has referred to certain figures of enrolment at the University of the Western Cape. He pleaded for a medical faculty to be established there. I will during the course of the short time permitted deal with other figures concerning the University of the Western Cape which I believe deserve very serious consideration. Firstly, I should like to raise with the hon. the Minister the question of the living conditions of those people who fall under his portfolio. I know that the provision of housing falls within the ambit of activity of another Minister.

Inactivity!

Somebody here said “inactivity”. I will not argue that one, Mr. Chairman. I should like to discuss with this Minister the human aspect. Surely he cares about that. I cannot believe that he does not. I heard the hon. the Deputy Minister refer to the question of conditions at Macassar. I wonder whether he is really satisfied with those conditions as they existed two months ago when I was there. I have no reason to believe that—these conditions have improved greatly since then. Is the hon. the Minister satisfied that these are conditions under which people should live— more or less in the veld? Let us take the housing complex as it stands. There are 528 houses, housing approximately 3 000 inmates. When we were there there were 14 taps and we watched the inmates queueing for water to cart away to their homes, in whatever vessels they had. There was no possibility of land-ownership; there were no telephones. The bus service is inadequate and the bus stop was almost a mile away from the centre of the community. There were no street lights, no sewerage and no stormwater drainage. There were no shopping facilities unless one can call a mobile van a shopping facility. The nearest amenity was the bottle store in Firgrove. There were no internal doors in the houses and no ceilings. The people whose bedrooms happened to be directly in front of the kitchen of the neighbour have to make their own arrangements to get rid of the smoke that wafted into their bedrooms. There were unsatisfactory locks about which the residents complained bitterly, because they could get locked into their homes, but they could not always lock their homes against people who wished to enter.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister also, whether he is satisfied about the Bellville transit camp. We had a brief look at that. I understand it to be a temporary measure. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister can tell us whether these extremely primitive conditions will continue as they have, I believe, for the past five years.

Then I would like to invite the hon. the Minister to come to Durban to visit the Wentworth housing complex, particularly the Durenta Road area, and Greenwood Park. His colleague, the Minister of Community Development has been there. I plead with this hon. Minister to come and let us show him some of the conditions about which we complain with justification.

I now wish to refer to Government Notice R600 of the 14th April this year. It deals with an amendment to the regulations arising out of the Coloured Persons Education Act. I refer to the new amendment which says—

I assume that this regulation is intended to apply to State-aided schools, and I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he has received and whether he has had time to study the memorandum submitted to him on behalf of the Roman Catholic, the Moravian, the Methodist and Anglican churches. They have asked the Minister to receive them for discussions urgently. They claim that the situation is extremely critical in regard to their finances and in regard to the part they play in providing educational facilities for the Coloured people. They claim that the rent grant for example is not covering redemption and interest. They say that the borrowing sources have raised their interest rates and it makes it impossible for them to meet their commitments. They claim that many of the buildings which are being used, are 40 years and more old. They say that the rent grant which is allowed in connection with these older buildings is calculated on the basis of the cost of the erection of the building at that time. That is more than 40 years ago. They claim that the f per cent increase which was allowed a few years ago is completely inadequate. They suggest that a 2 per cent immediate increase is necessary to put the position into perspective. They are concerned about the compensation which may be paid to them in respect of schools which have been closed down because of Group Areas Act pronouncements. They talk about a lack of communication between the administration and the managers. They say that in many instances letters which have a bearing on the affairs under which the schools operate, but that those letters are not shown to them and they are not made aware of their contents. They claim that some letters from the managers are completely ignored; they claim that there should be better liaison between the inspectors and the managers. They claim that the time has come for the cleaning grants to be re-assessed. They say that there is an unsatisfactory situation in regard to the appointment of teachers. They say that the managers’ recommendations are not always taken into consideration and they claim too that boarding allowances are inadequate.

In the few minutes left to me, I wish to refer to the question of education. I notice with satisfaction that the total amount due to be allocated to the CRC this year amounts to R86 million, which is R10 million in excess of the past year’s allocation. However, I find extreme difficulty in getting details in regard to the globular amount which is allocated by the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council for education. The library here is unable to help, and only as late as yesterday, they indicated that they do not receive documents which would disclose the amount. Incidentally I ask the hon. the Minister if it is not possible for the library of Parliament to have these facts at its disposal. It would appear that the funds for education are inadequate and that the results are disappointing.

Now I want finally to deal with the question of the University of the Western Cape, because there particularly I believe we need some form of investigation. It should be a broad and in-depth investigation. In the last 12 years, from 1960 to 1971, the number of new enrolments has totalled 2 843. From this figure a mere 361 degrees have been awarded over the 12 years, and 428 deplomas. This makes a total of 798, out of 2 843 new enrolments, who have completed their course. What happens to the other students? Why is there such a high fall-out rate, and what becomes of them? One can well ask this question because one has only to examine the figures of the senior certificate examination. I quote the 1970 figures where 2 004 Coloured students entered the senior certificate examination and only 424 gained matriculation exemption. This is the total number out of a school population enrolment of over half a million pupils. Mr. Chairman, is it any wonder that the Coloured Persons Education Council says that anomalies that exist in the scales, and the difficulties arising therefrom, give rise to bitter dissatisfaction, disappointment and frustration on the part of the teaching corps? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to dwell on the speech of the hon. member for Berea. I think the hon. the Minister will reply to him. I want to dwell for a moment to the speech the hon. member for Wynberg made yesterday evening. She made a dangerous speech that is loaded with dynamite. She said—

I say this is the kind of speech that ought not to be made in this House. What is being said here is that when there is a confrontation in South Africa, no Coloureds will stand with the Whites. I ask the hon. member whether she is seeking a confrontation. This speech is aimed in that direction. I ask the hon. members on that side whether they agree that if a confrontation were to take place not one Coloured would stand with the Whites of South Africa.

What do you say?

That hon. member knows as well as I do that the Coloureds and other non-Whites will stand with the Whites in South Africa as a result of the honest policy being adopted by this party.

There was also talk here of incitement. Other things were also said. I want to refer to the University of Cape Town, where non-White students are also studying. There was also talk here of unrest amongst the students at the University of the Western Cape. In Personality of 15th January, 1971, there is an article in which the universities of the Western Cape are asked the following question—

The reply was—

It seems to me the hon. member for Wynberg belongs on the left wing of the United Party. In that article the following question is also put to the students of the University of the Western Cape—

Then there is mention of the Black Sash, the Institute of Race Relations, the Civil Rights League, etc. I say again that that hon. member belongs to the United Party’s left flank.

But I want to come to another point. Here today we have had individuals belittling the Coloured Persons Representative Council. Every speech made by a member of that side of the House was in disparagement of the Coloured Persons Representative Council. I shall tell hon. members why this disparagement took place. It is because the hon. members opposite regard the Coloureds as an appendage to the Whites in South Africa. They regard the Coloureds as an appendage, and that is why they want to give them representation in this House. They do not regard the Coloureds as a people with an individual identity, but as an appendage of the Whites, and that is why they want to give them representation in this House. The Coloureds do speak the same language as the majority of us in South Africa. It is also correct that the majority of them are adherents of the Christian faith and that they also, to a large extent, have a democratic view of life. To a large extent they also share our Western outlook. But does this make them a part of the Whites in South Africa? No, Sir, Does it make them an appendage of the Whites in South Africa? Look at America and look at Britain. Look at the Americans and the British. They speak the same language, the English language. They are predominantly Christians. They also predominantly have a democratic view of life and they both share a Western outlook. Can one now say that the British are an appendage of the Americans, or that the Americans are an appendage of the British? That appendage theory of hon. members opposite has an unsound basis. There was also talk here of a feeling of frustration amongst the Coloureds, frustration amongst the élite Coloureds because they have been taken out of the hovels in which they lived. Who are the élite amongst the Coloureds? The élite are the teachers, the doctors and others. They had to live in those slum quarters, but they were taken out of there and placed in better areas, and better accommodation was given to them. However, it is now being said in this House that this intelligentsia is dissatisfied because of its removal from the slum areas to better areas.

The hon. member for Maitland advocated here the socio-economic development of the Coloureds, and we agree wholeheartedly with him. There is not one of us in this House who does not agree with him; it is indeed the policy of this Government. Does he think, however, that if there are six Coloured representatives sitting in this House it would contribute to the socio-economic upliftment of the Coloureds?

Yes.

In what respect would six Coloureds here contribute to the socio-economic development of the Coloureds? As hon. members on this side of the House have already indicated, it will only create frustration and be a source of dissatisfaction, and there could never be any socio-economic development in that respect. To tell us that socio-economic upliftment comes from giving political rights to people in this House is untrue, impractical and actually completely immoral.

Why?

It is immoral because those people are being bluffed into believing that they would thereby be uplifted socio-economically. It is a bluff. I cannot put it any other way. The Coloureds of South Africa, the Brown people, are being bluffed by the United Party because they are being led to believe that there will be six representatives for them in this house.

The hon. member for Newton Park said that certain important problems must be solved. Will those problems be cleared up by bringing six Coloured representatives into this House?

Those are not the only problems.

Now we come to a new field, because there is now another new proposal.

May I ask the hon. member a question?

Yes. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to confine myself to the provision of community facilities for Coloureds in Coloured areas. The hon. the Minister must excuse me if I refer in particular this afternoon to the Coloured area at Boksburg. To begin with I immediately want to say that I think that as far as the community facilities for Coloureds are concerned, we do not begrudge them the same facilities the White community has. The Coloureds are settled at Boksburg on a regional basis. The present position is that the Boksburg municipality carries all the responsibility for the development and the provision of those community facilities for those Coloureds. As I have already said, it is a residential area for all Coloureds from the East Rand. At the moment there are between 12 000 and 13 000 Coloureds settled in that area, i.e. Reiger Park. If Boksburg alone benefited from the 12 000 Coloureds settled there, this would have created no problems for us there when it came to carrying, accepting and meeting that responsibility in full as far as the provision of those facilities is concerned. The fact is, however, that more than 50 per cent of those Coloureds are employed by employers in other local authorities without their accepting any responsibility for the accommodation of the Coloureds or the provision of the necessary facilities for them. The present position is that the Boksburg Municipality’s Coloured Account is evidencing a considerable loss, in fact so much so that over the past year a loss of more than R100 000 was registered without any help being forthcoming from any other body. To make the problem worse, when the Coloureds were resettled at Boksburg and it was decided that this would be a Coloured area, it was decided to create a pleasure resort at Reiger Park for all the Coloureds of the entire Witwatersrand. Initially, when the decision was taken, there was quite a bit of enthusiasm on the part of other local authorities. Other local authorities even made contributions to the establishment of such a big pleasure resort. Unfortunately that is as far as it went, and at present Boksburg alone is saddled with that problem. I honestly think it is unfair that this should come from one local authority in the light of the fact that it serves a larger region and that, with the position as it is at present, virtually the whole of the East Rand benefits from the Coloured labour. The contribution those Coloureds make to those facilities is minimal, because there is only a very small portion of that Coloured community that owns property there and consequently pays direct rates and taxes from which those services can be furnished. The vast majority live in sub-economic houses for which they pay no rates and taxes. I want to ask where the solution to the problem lies in order to relieve that unreasonable burden that has been placed on the Boksburg Municipality and to obtain a more uniform distribution of that burden.

Mr. H. VAN Z. CILLIÉ: [Inaudible.]

If the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central does not have his father-in-law at hand to help him. he would do well to listen to me. because then he could perhaps also learn something more.

In the first place I want to suggest that it would be a good thing if a levy could be imposed on each of those Coloured families exclusively for the provision of those facilities. I think this would also perhaps result in greater appreciation on their part for what has been established. Another alternative I am thinking of is that a levy can be imposed on the employers, perhaps similar to what we recently approved here in Parliament in respect of the transport services of the Coloureds. There are many of the employers who already supply those facilities to their White employees. For the same reason they can, I think, also supply those facilities to the Coloureds in their own residential areas.

Another alternative is that funds can be made available by the provincial administration for those services. I can tell you that representations have already been made to them, but without any success because the provinces only provide for services similar to those for extra-municipal areas.

The last alternative is that the necessary funds should be provided by the Treasury. It is not only a Boksburg problem; I foresee that problem also cropping up for other municipalities where Coloureds are going to be settled and where Coloured areas are to be created. Assistance must come from somewhere. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to have us find a formula for the solution of that problem.

And now, Sir, to come to the United Party men. The hon. member for Wynberg said here yesterday evening that she regards all persons that are bom in South Africa as being South African citizens by birth, but that they do not all have the same citizenship. As far as she is concerned full citizenship means, as she also put it, that they have full political and other rights. Did I understand her corectly? I think she repeated the statement this afternoon. I now want to ask her something: Let us now have an honest answer. If they were to come into power, she told us today, they would firstly repeal the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act. They would remove it from the Statute Book

May I ask the hon. member a question?

No, Sir, she has had her turn. Now I want to ask her, in addition, to state something very clearly. I am now speaking about White/non-White relations. If they were to come into power, would they remove the Immorality Act from the Statute Book? Would they do away with the Group Areas Act, so that people would obtain accommodation on a voluntary basis? I think we must have clarity about this, not only for the sake of the Whites, but also for the sake of the Coloureds, so that the Coloureds will know where they stand as far as the United Party is concerned, so that they will know whether Bantu will again be able to settle in Coloured areas, as was the case when they were still in power?

The hon. member for Turffontein was so eager to ask questions. Now I want to ask him something; let him now give us a straight answer. He asked whether a Coloured could become Secretary for Defence under the National Party Government. My answer is: “No.” He asked whether a Coloured could become Prime Minister under our rule; my answer is: “No”. Now I want to ask him: If they were to come into power, could a Coloured become Prime Minister of this country? Now he must give us a straight answer. Anyone else can do so; perhaps the next speaker. Let them give us straight answers to those questions, so that we know. It seems to me the hon. member for Bezuidenhout is going to stand up—will he now give us a reply to those questions? I think it is in the interests of the Coloureds and of the Whites that we obtain answers to these questions. [Time expired.]

Sir, it is a very easy little question the hon. member has just put, i.e. whether a Coloured person would become a Prime Minister. The question is whether Whites would elect a Coloured person as Prime Minister. What is his reply to that? Will the Whites elect a Coloured person as Prime Minister, yes or no? This is the answer. It is a ridiculous question, and there is the answer. The answer is simply this: If he thinks the Whites will elect a Coloured person, then they will elect one, and if they do not want to elect him, then they will not elect him; it is as simple as that. Sir, the hon. member for Krugersdorp said there were people here on this side who regarded the Coloured as an appendage. There is no one sitting on this side who has said the Coloured is an appendage of the White. We do not regard the Coloured as an appendage of anybody. We regard him as a South African. The only thing we say is that in his own interests and in our own interests we want to co-operate with him in the political and economic spheres.

And only six representatives?

Criticism was levelled here at the proposal of the United Party that the Coloureds should be represented here in this Parliament by their own people But, Sir, here we are sitting, in this day and age, a small group of Whites together; for the whole of this afternoon we have been conducting a debate here on what we think the Coloureds think. It is so ridiculous. Surely it is obvious that if even one Coloured person had been sitting here, one who was worth his salt, one speech by him on what the Coloureds thought and felt and what their problems were would have been worth more than 90 per cent of the speeches that have been made here. Furthermore, we have had a very unrealistic debate here on the question of whether the Coloureds feel oppressed and whether he is embittered. Sir, there ought to be no room for difference between us in this regard. The only thing we as Afrikaners need do is to place ourselves in the shoes of the Coloureds. Say the Afrikaner were in the shoes of the Coloured and the Englishman were in a dominant position of power. One cannot imagine how other people feel unless one puts oneself in their shoes. Bring me one Afrikaner who would place himself in the shoes of the Coloureds and who would subsequently be satisfied to have the English ruling here and making and breaking as they liked.

They did do so.

Very well, but what did we do? Sir, would we not be rebellious? Would we be satisfied? It is totally unrealistic. We would have been as rebellious as one could possibly be and we would have done everything within our power to overthrow the existing set-up and to ensure that justice would be done to us. The Coloureds feel exactly the same. We need not debate this point; it is a fact, because we would have felt like that. Sir, the point at issue here is not progress. There is progress amongst all; there is progress amongst the Whites and we do not deny that there is progress amongst the Coloureds, but this is not what the struggle is about. The struggle is about justice. Is there justice at present? This is the question to which hon. members on that side must reply, not to the question whether there is progress. This is where hon. members on the opposite side are being hopelessly unrealistic. The hon. member for Tygervallei quite rightly said here that there was a time when our people—he was speaking of the Afrikaners— were excluded from opportunities; and now we are doing the same thing to other people, but he sits there and is perfectly satisfied with it. Now he is doing to other people what he did not want others to do to us.

Sir, I want to exchange a few words with the hon. the Minister. There were reports in the Press that the Labour Party was preparing a campaign against the humiliating aspects of apartheid. They had a large supply of placards printed bearing the words “This is petty apartheid”, and according to the newspapers, they intend putting them up on a large scale at places where they feel humiliating practices exist. [Interjections.] I understand that there are certain firms that have asked to be given time and for the campaign to be held in abeyance by these people until such time as they have introduced certain facilities which do not exist at the moment. I know nothing more than this. I do not know what methods they intend employing and consequently I am unable to judge them. But I think that one may have sympathy with the motivation thereof. I want to ask the hon. the Minister what he thinks of this campaign. I want to tell him that if this kind of campaign really were to get into its stride, it could cause much bitterness between White and non-White, between Coloured and White. I think that the Government has a duty in this regard and that the Government ought to take the initiative. We, the White people, must take the initiative, and we must remove humiliating practices which hurt the Coloureds. We must not wait until they bring pressure to bear on us; we must take the initiative and remove those things as rapidly as we can. There are many private businesses— banks, building societies and other institutions—which implement all kinds of small apartheid practices which are not prescribed by law, and I think these things should be abolished immediately. The businesses should see to it that they get rid of these humiliating practices, where they are not obliged by law to implement these practices. Sir, the hon. the Minister passes as a reasonably enlightened man, and I should like to hear what he has to say about this matter. And if he is not an enlightened man, then he is at least a good Afrikaner, and we know that an Afrikaner is sentitive about any kind of contempt of his rights or his language or his national personality. An Afrikaner is very sensitive about anything which humiliates him in his opinion, and in recent months we had examples of this in the newspapers of the National Party and here in this Parliament, where the accusation was levelled that there were people in this country who were unsympathetic towards the Afrikaner. Sir, one thing which always disappoints me is the fact that there are Government supporters who are very quick—and let me say here that if an injustice is done to my people or my language or my national personality, I myself get on my hind legs—to object if they believe that they are humiliated as Afrikaners, but who do not care tuppence when Coloureds and non-Whites in general are humiliated, and who even try to defend it, by all kinds of signs reading: You are not good enough to travel in this lift with us; you cannot enter through the same door as us; you cannot buy your requirements at the same counter as us. Things of this kind hurt, and we should like to know whether the hon. the Minister approves of these things or whether he will do something to remove these practices. I want to go further; I do not want to dwell on these practices only.

How far are you prepared to go?

I have already said that so many times here. If only that hon. Minister would get up and say that he was prepared to abolish apartheid in lifts and at counters and at entrances, then he would already have progressed a long way. It would be a very good start.

Hypocrisy.

On a point of order, Sir, is the hon. the Minister entitled to use the word “hypocritical” with reference to the hon. member?

Order! If the hon. the Minister used the word, he must withdraw it.

I withdraw it.

Is the hon. the Minister not ashamed of a man such as he using such words? I want to tell the hon. the Minister: The time has really arrived when an end should be put to wasting human material in South Africa. We do not have the time to dawdle. In this country —and at the moment we are speaking of the Coloureds, because that is the debate we are conducting—each child should be given the same opportunity, the same opportunity in every respect, to receive education. Just as the White child receives education, so must the Coloured child. We speak of uplifting people; one cannot uplift people if one applies humiliating practices against them. One can give a man all the education in the world but that education is not going to make him into a man with self-confidence if one applies practices Which humiliate him. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Bezuidenhout, who has just resumed his seat, set off at a tremendous pace. He issued a challenge to the hon. member for Boksburg by asking him whether this Government would elect a Coloured person as Prime Minister. That is the question he put, and the answer is: “Of course not.” That is not our policy. It may be that party’s policy, but it is not the policy of this party. A Coloured person will, once they have developed sufficiently, be elected as head of the Coloured population on the strength of his virtues.

The contents of all the speeches made on the other side amount to the Coloureds not being given their rightful share in our economic development. The speeches made by everybody opposite amounted to this. The hon. member for Newton Park explicitly said that they were subject to frustrations.

That is what the chairman of the executive committee said.

I want to speak this afternoon as a practical person who has observed certain facts. Three weeks ago he questioned 16 Coloureds; I want to tell him that I spoke to the chairman of the garment workers’ union three days ago, and I am not afraid to mention his name here. It would perhaps not be the correct thing to do, but I shall give his name to the Minister. I asked him openly: “Are there bad feelings between the Coloureds and the Whites?” Do you know what his answer was? He said: “Sir, there are no bad feelings on the part of the educated Coloured person towards the Whites, but such feelings do exist on the part of—this is how he calls them; it is almost not a nice word to use —the ’skollies’ towards the Whites.” Then he went on to mention another important point, which was only touched upon briefly this afternoon, namely that propaganda was being made in the Coloured residential areas. Those people, who are going about unemployed, are the victims of such propaganda. They are asked: “What do you earn?” Then they say: “No, I do not earn anything; I am not employed.” When they are asked whether they have applied for work and whether their names appear on the unemployment list they say: “No, my name does not appear on that list.” That is what is happening, and those hon. members should not adopt the standpoint that the Coloureds in general are a frustrated people, for this is not the case. I want to prove that there is employment for every Coloured person in the Western Cape. I am referring specifically to the Western Cape now, for this is where the majority of the Coloureds are to be found, but in the interior the position is exactly the same.

I shall take the case of the building industry as an example. By whom is the building industry controlled at present? The building industry is exclusively in the hands of the Coloureds. They are the people who lay bricks; they are the people who do the plastering; they are the people who do the cabinet-work; they are the people who lay the tiles. Those skilled jobs are all done by Coloureds today. Who is the present holder of the record for laying bricks—a White or a Coloured person? It is a Coloured person, who earns R20 000 per annum as a bricklayer. This is an artisan. I want to mention the case of a young, uneducated Coloured man at the H. F. Verwoerd Dam, who had the necessary intelligence and started doing carpentry at the dam. I asked him: “Johnny, what do you earn?” His reply to that was: “Sir, I am earning R400 a month.” There is no such thing that if a person is an artisan, he cannot find employment. Take the blockmen in Cape Town, take the blockmen in the butcheries. But for a few exceptions, all of them are Coloureds. They are people who earn R300 or R400 per month.

Is the hon. member aware that according to the 1970 census there are 14 000 Coloured families who had an income of less than R100 per annum?

I can well believe that. These are perhaps people who do not work every day. One finds people who work for 10 or 12 days a month. They just work for that period and then their masters chase them away. I can well believe the figures mentioned by the hon. member. There is employment for the person who wants to work. Take, for instance, the clothing industry. That industry is in the hands of the non-Whites today. The hon. member for Newton Park does not want to listen now.

No, I am listening.

The clothing industry is in the hands of the non-Whites, One may go to any of the factories and see who works there. Non-White women are working there by the thousand. However, here we are being brought under the impression that the Coloureds are frustrated because there is no employment for them or because there is too big a differencle in the employment. However, those people should be asked what they earn. We could travel in the buses here today. Who are the bus drivers and who are the conductors today?

Where?

Does the hon. member want to know where? Here in Cape Town.

And in the Transvaal?

What about Johannesburg?

And in Durban?

The hon. member is looking for a way out. Right at the beginning I said I was referring mainly to the Western Cape, where there is a concentration of Coloureds.

What are their salaries? [Interjections.]

We gladly provide them with work, as I have said. Half of the traffic officers on the streets are Coloureds. Just take a look at how many Coloureds are employed in business concerns today. How many Coloured typists do we have sitting behind typewriters? Just take a look at the clerks in the chain stores. How many Coloured girls are working behind the counters in them? Just take a look at how many Coloured men and women are standing behind counters in chemist’s shops. This progress has been made by the Coloureds within the space of a few years. I want to repeat that that side and that party are trying to run down what the National Party has been doing for the Coloureds. It is a pity that this is being done. I understand that quite a number of Coloureds are sitting here in the public gallery, and surely, it gives those people pleasure to hear that side saying that they are getting frustrated. It is a great pity that this is being said.

A certain Coloured person started working here in one of the Coloured residential areas in Cape Town as a bottle washer. He died the other day, but do you know what his estate was worth, Sir? Just over 1 million rand! He was a person who wanted to work. He and his wife started working alone by cleaning bottles.

You do not even want to allow that.

My time is very limited, but I want to say that we are dealing here with a person who wanted to work and achieved success for that reason. Eventually he acquired a soft-drink factory, and shortly before his death—it is a pity that he could not see it —he imported machinery to the value of R0,25 million for cleaning bottles.

I do not want the hon. members over there to plead for the knifers. Every day we read about the “skollies” in the newspapers. We have hundreds of them here, I almost feel like saying thousands, who are loitering about, and when they see a poor widow living in a house all by herself, they go there at night, assault her and rob her of the few rands she has in the form of pension money. They may even rape her as well. The other day we read in the papers about a jobless “skolly” who pulled a twelve-year-old girl from her bicycle and dragged her into the bushes. We know what he did to her. What I absolutely take amiss of the United Party, is that they put the emphasis more on that type of person and not on the good work done by these people.

Why do they become “skollies”?

I could go on in this vein for hours. Take the position in the Police and the Post Office, into which thousands of Coloureds are absorbed today. The only point is training, and the National Party Government is engaged in training them. I have the figures available. Take the figures in respect of the University of the Western Cape, for instance. When I studied at the University of Stellenbosch in 1924, there were 600 students. At the moment, in respect of the first term of this year, there were 1 241 students at the University of the Western Cape. Therefore, the National Party Government is engaged in providing them with training. It is not only doing so at the universities, but also at technical schools, in respect of which I could also furnish the hon. members with the figures. In the first term there were 3 406 pupils at the technical schools. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I just want to add a few words to the points I made earlier on. Let me tell the hon. gentlemen that the point at issue is not amalgamation of people or integration of people. That is not the standpoint. Our standpoint on this side of the House is that people should have equal opportunities. One should take the stones off their heads so that they may have the right to develop themselves. These people are subject to too many unnecessary restrictions. It does not make a better White person of me if I prevent another person from developing, and by imposing restrictions on other people. That is why we reject this kind of argument, namely that when we plead for people to be treated justly and to be afforded the opportunity of developing and developing freely, we stand for amalgamation. In the first place, I said it was absolutely essential for us to put a stop to the wastage of manpower. South Africa needs every person, and it is necessary for every person to develop to the highest degree of his personality. For that reason we should afford every child every opportunity, irrespective of whether he is White or Coloured, of developing his personality and becoming a useful citizen of this country. But we shall have to go further than that. There are many injustices which must be removed more forcefully. Is it fair for a Coloured teacher and a Coloured doctor to have to complete the same studies and incur the same expenses in order to hold a post, only to be paid infinitely less than a White teacher and a White doctor? What justice does one find in that?

Does he not have the same responsibility?

Yes, for the same work. I am referring to people who have the same qualifications, and not to people who do not have the same qualifications. How long are the Minister and the Government going to continue to commit these injustices which cause bitterness amongst people with whom we can least afford it? This refers specifically to the teacher who has thousands of children under him, and his influence on the ultimate relations between the Whites and the Coloureds is much greater than that of any other person. But, this is how we treat those people. What we want to see on the part of the Government, is drive. If it says that it is its policy to afford unlimited opportunities to every person—the sky is the limit, according to Mr. P. W. Botha—we want to see this put into practice. It can be done.

I want to put another question to the hon. the Minister. When is the hon. the Minister going to get so far as to make the Coloured Persons Representative Council a fully elected council? In saying this, I am not against any person in any position. I have the highest respect, also for those people who were the pioneers. The pioneers often have a very difficult task. When are we going to learn the lessons which the colonial powers learnt? In taking a look at history, one will find that no matter what colonial power it was—Britain, France or whoever—it always tried to appoint people who would be sympathetic towards the colonial power in question, rather than affording the people the opportunity of choosing freely the people they wanted. I want to say something to the hon. the Minister, and I am saying this with all due respect to the representatives who are there at present: As a White person I would much rather be face to face with those Coloured leaders whom I know were elected by the Coloured community. I would much rather want to know that I was speaking to leaders who could really speak on behalf of those people. Why are we bluffing ourselves? How long are we going to bluff ourselves? How long do we think we can tolerate this situation where one creates bitterness and discord in that council because it is not a fully elected council? There is a possibility of legislation being introduced in that regard later on in this session, but what gives rise to all the problems arising there? They stem from the Government’s action in that it does not want to afford the Coloured community the opportunity of establishing a fully elected council. How long will we still be able to carry on with this in that way? I think it is the hon. the Minister’s duty to tell us when we shall reach the point where they will at least have that elementary right. That council has few enough powers. It is not a case of our belittling that council, but, heaven knows, at this stage it really does not have powers that are worth having. Even with such few powers, we do not see our way clear to telling the Coloureds that they may elect their people, that they themselves may elect an executive committee to deal with these few matters that have been delegated to them. But I want to go further. I want to ask the hon. the Minister that he should also be so kind as to give us a reply to the question as to what powers he ultimately envisages for the Coloured Council. I do not want to argue with him today on the question of representation of the Coloureds in this Parliament. I know what his policy is, and he knows what our policy is in regard to the matter. But I want to speak to him within the framework of his own policy. I believe that the hon. the Minsiter will have neglected his duty if he and his Government have not yet to a certain extent given thought to and prepared themselves for a decision as to what powers can be delegated to that council. What I want to know from him, is not what powers he will now delegate to the council, but what the eventual situation will be in his view. They do not want to grant representation to the Coloureds here or on any other similar body. Now he should tell us openly and honestly that this and that are the powers he knows will eventually be delegated to the Coloured Council. When the Government talks about self-determination, when it says that these people will really govern themselves, we want to know whether it honestly means that they will have full control over their Budget. The hon. member for Malmesbury waxed lyrical here about the amount of R82 million controlled by that council. We all know that it does not control it. It has no control of its own Budget. It cannot change anything in that Budget. It is purely a book transfer from this Parliament to that Coloured Council, where it merely has to be signed. We all know that this is the case.

Really, you do disparage everything.

I am not saying anything disparaging; this is merely the truth. If this is not the case, the hon. the Minister should tell us what the actual position is. They have no authority over that Budget. When are they themselves going to have that elementary authority which will at least leave them some scope, as certain Bantu territories already have? Those things we want to know. If the hon. the Minister is honest about the future of the Coloured Council, we shall also be better able to test the Government. We are not intent on running something down when we see that it works and that it is successful. The hon. the Minister can win a great deal of goodwill for the idea … [Interjections.] No, those hon. members know that the attitude we adopt is that if something works, we recognize it. If the hon. the Minister and those hon. members can convince us and give us an idea of the powers this council will have in the near future, I am convinced that he will strike a major blow for that council. But we do not hear a word from that side. I sincerely hope that the hon. the Minister will take the opportunity this time to explain to us up to what point the Coloured Council can develop, and more or less when it will become a fully self-elected representative council of the Coloured community.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to reply to some of the questions raised by the hon. member for Bezuidenhout, but I shall not reply to all of them since I believe that this is the hon. Minister’s prerogative and that he will possibly prefer it that way too. I want to start with the questions he asked last. He referred to a fully elected council. I can tell him right now that the principle has already been adopted. The only thing is that there are practical problems preventing us from introducing this at the next election. That is all it amounts to. I think the hon. the Minister will repeat it.

Did you say that it would be introduced at the next election?

It cannot be introduced at the next election already. There is a White election, and, in addition, many other practical problems are involved in this matter as well. I am merely mentioning it to the hon. member. It is still being investigated. A final decision has not yet been taken on the matter. However, it has already been accepted in principle by the hon. the Prime Minister and the hon. the Minister. The hon. member referred to the Budget over which these people supposedly have no authority. The Budget of the Coloured Persons Representative Council is preparted by its executive committee itself. They add their extra demands to it according to their needs. After that it is considered by the Minister of Finance. These hon. members vote on it; they are not a tax body; they cannot impose taxes. Nevertheless, they prepare their own Budget. In the utilization thereof they can exercise their full authority.

The hon. member said at the beginning that we did not know what the Coloureds were thinking. Today we are much more familiar with what the Coloureds are thinking than has ever been the case before, because we have regular talks with members of the Coloured Persons Representative Council. They have their executive committee and every month we have talks with them on an increasingly broader basis. There is no end to the possible forms of liaison which we can work out in the future in these dynamic times in which we are living.

In the third place, the hon. member tried to draw a comparison between the Afrikaner in his former state of subordination in the economic sphere and how he subsequently made good as compared to the English-speaking people. But, surely, the hon. member has lost his bearings completely. After all, he cannot compare two assimilable groups, involved in a struggle against each other, with a group that is not recognized as being assimilable with either of the other groups in its struggle to the top. One can recognize this on economic, political and other grounds, but not on the grounds you want.

The Afrikaner had no obstacles in his way.

No, wait a minute. We are not putting any obstacles in their way. There are certain conditions, but no obstacles. The hon. member also referred to progress. The major issue today is political progress. As far as political progress is concerned, those hon. members are the persons who are placing a final ceiling over these heads, i.e. six representatives and the fact that the Whites have to decide on the future. What have the Whites decided over the past 24 years?

Then the hon. member raised the question of bitterness, equal opportunities and job reservation. I shall come back to the question of opportunities later on, but I may tell the hon. member that in South Africa the legalistic prohibitions, legalistic obstacles in the way of the progress of the Coloured people, are far fewer than are the social ones. The people on the hon. member’s side, many of their religious denominations and many others, are actually responsible for the fact that these people are not making progress at places where they apparently intimate that they will allow them to make progress if the Government would only clear the way for them. Their way is clear, and they can make progress. The hon. member will forgive me, but his other questions will be replied to by the hon. the Minister himself.

The hon. member for Newton Park referred to the poor progress made in regard to the training of apprentices. In 1964 there were no vocational schools; at the moment there are five colleges. In addition there are a number of schools at which continuation classes are provided. At present there are 2 321 pupils attending the colleges and the continuation classes. There are 487 pupils in the technical institutions and the differentiated high schools.

The hon. member for Parow raised the question of bursary loans awarded for library science. From 1966 to 1971 an amount of R8 800 was awarded. There are five subject inspectors. The libraries are being developed at Coloured high schools. The provincial library service caters for all population groups. Where this service is provided for Coloureds, it is staffed by Coloureds as far as possible. The hon. member mentioned the possibility of this service being handed over to the Administration of Coloured Affairs. To my mind this is not desirable at this particular stage. It is still in a stage of development.

†The hon. member for Berea, who is not here at the moment, talked about the families living at Macassar Beach and the sub-economic housing there. I wonder if the hon. member realizes that what he was talking about is really a transit camp. The divisional council of Stellenbosch placed these people in that transit camp. They have to stay there for the time being; from there they will be moved to project 4. Some of these people, about 30 families, have been housed on one plot at Firgrove. Is this new arrangement not a big improvement? The hon. member also talked about Greenwood Park and Wentworth. I realize that things are not as they should be at Wentworth. I visited Greenwood Park, also Wentworth and Sparks Estate, and I agree that there are many things that need our attention at Wentworth. These people came to see the Minister of Community Development and the Minister of Coloured Affairs on Monday and we had a good discussion about all these matters. I do not think the hon. member need worry any more about Wentworth, because things are getting the attention they should. Then I want to say a few words about the memorandum of the church institutions. In this regard I have received some information from the department. The Anglican Archbishop of Cape Town had an interview with the Minister and the Minister of Community Development in connection with the retention of Zonnebloem College. Amongst others, matters mentioned by the hon. member for Berea were also raised. The Archbishop was, however, asked to submit a memorandum in regard to these matters and he then indicated that he would also like to include the views of other churches. The Secretary informed me that such a memorandum has been received. It was attended to by the administration of Coloured Affairs who suggested that the views of other Afrikaans churches also be obtained. The information is now being correlated by the department and will be submitted to me or to the Minister for further attention. The question of a further meeting, if necessary, will also be considered.

*The hon. member for Boksburg spoke about housing in Boksburg. He knows that I attended to the matter there, that it is receiving the attention of the Department of Community Development at the moment and that he will in due course be informed as to what is being done about it. I have sympathy with the problem of recreational facilities at Reiger Park, and I have been there personally. The Coloured Affairs Administration, the commissioner and the executive committee are aware of the problems experienced there, and some of their members visited the area with me. We have the Council for Culture and Recreation, in respect of which I wanted to convey my thanks to the hon. member for Berea for being willing to make his positive contribution on this body for the upliftment of the Coloured people. They can possibly make a contribution; I do not know. We shall have to look into the matter. I am rather impressed by the idea of a levy on employers. After all, if people get people from elsewhere to work for one, they must see to it that these people get proper recreation. We shall most certainly give attention to the various suggestions raised by this hon. member.

I think I have now replied to most of the questions put by hon. members. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Deputy Minister, who has just resumed his seat, mentioned one or two matters which I will deal with in passing. The first is in connection with Macassar Beach, a matter raised by my colleague the hon. member for Berea. The Deputy Minister pointed out that this was a transit camp and that it must be realized that from this transit camp these people would move on to better pastures. I just want to say to the hon. the Deputy Minister that we have a transit camp also in Durban. We call it “tin town”: it has been there for a solid 10 years. We are very anxious to know when the occupants of this particular transit camp are going to move on to better housing.

I would like to deal very briefly with a few other points that the Deputy Minister made. But before I do so, I would like to tax the Government with this thought: First of all there is to be no homeland for the Coloureds. Secondly, they are not allowed to have a majority elected Coloured Council.

Why? That is not true.

I said majority “elected” council. You nominate more than half of the members.

It is going to happen.

When is it going to happen? They are not allowed to have their own representation in Parliament. That is number three. Therefore, I ask the hon. the Deputy Minister: What price democracy? What morality is there in this approach? Not one of the things they do will they take to its conclusion. Does the hon. the Deputy Minister not himself admit that he places the members of the Coloured Council in an invidious position, those who are nominated by the Government? They know, as well as everybody else knows, including the Coloured people, that these are nominated members, and therefore they cannot pretend to be the truly elected representatives of their people.

Mr. S. F. KOTZÉ: The United Party members insisted on nominated members.

I would like to go further than this. The hon. the Deputy Minister says that they must have a Coloured Council that represents the views of the Government. Now, I want to know how you can have a Coloured Council representing the Coloureds that must first of all, as number one priority, represent the views of the Government.

I did not say that.

Well, this is what you implied in your remarks. If they did not represent the views of the Government, they were no good to you, and for this reason the question of a fully elected council is something for the far distant future. But this, of course, is not strange in their thinking. I wonder how much the Coloureds themselves must have been worried by debates in this House earlier this session, just a few weeks ago, when they saw a deliberate attempt from the Government benches to drive a wedge between the White groups in South Africa. Having tried to drive this wedge between the White groups in South Africa, how much less chance do we have to be able to bring the White and Coloured people in South Africa to a form of national unity which will benefit the whole country? The point is that they place the importance of the Nationalist Party far above that of the interests of the Coloured community and the White non-Nationalist community as well. This has been their creed for 24 years.

I would go further than this. I would say that after 24 years of Government rule, we are no nearer solving the problems of the Coloured community than we were when we starged. After 24 years of Government rule, after 50 years in the Union of South Africa and ten years as a republic, and after 300 years of occupation in South Africa, we are still unable to solve probably what is our easiest race problem.

You don’t know anything about history.

It is our easiest race problem. If we cannot solve this problem I do not believe we can solve the far bigger problem of the Africans.

I warned in previous debates in this House that the frustrations and the hardships caused to the Coloured community were going to bode ill for South Africa in the not too distant future. If hon. members on that side of the House do not like that sort of statement, as far as I am concerned, they can lump it, because we owe a duty to South Africa to warn South Africa what is happening. This Government has taken Coloureds from very good areas and lumped them together in what has been called by some Coloureds, when they are lucky to have lights, “graveyards with lights”. They live, they say themselves, as battery chickens. If anybody can get up in this House and say that the Coloureds are better off than they were before the advent of this Government, then I say that they know nothing about the Coloureds and that they have not in fact examined the problems of the Coloureds in any depth whatever. Sir, hon. members have spoken about Coloured housing in this debate. I would like to quote to them just one figure given to me by the hon. the Minister of Community Development, who is responsible for housing. He told me in reply to a written question that we need 16 346 houses per annum to cater for the population increase; and in addition to that we have a backlog of 21 840 housing units which still have to be provided. The best building rate we have achieved is an average of 11 000 houses a year. But the Minister also went on to say that within eight or nine years all the Coloureds would be resettled under the Group Areas Act. I am glad to see that the hon. the Minister of Community Development has come back into the House. I want to say this to him and to the hon. the Minister of Planning, because this is his prime concern. The Minister of Community Development said in the debate on his Vote that all Coloureds would be resettled under the Group Areas Act within eight to nine years.

What about 1978?

If this is so, Sir, I want to warn the hon. the Minister that the backlog in Coloured housing by that date will be no less than 80 000 on his own figures.

You are talking tripe now.

If I am talking tripe, then I am talking tripe with figures supplied to me by the hon. the Minister himself, and if the hon. the Minister can do any arithmetic, he will arrive at the same figure. I want to say to the Minister of Coloured Affairs that I believe that that figure was a very conservative one and that in fact investigations will reveal that the figure is a great deal higher than that. I want to warn the hon. the Minister of Planning who, I believe, is a far more reasonable man than the Minister of Community Development that in eight or nine years’ time there will not be a shortage of 80 000 houses, but a good deal more, and that with this shortage of housing, there will be a great deal more frustration and bitterness than there is today if that is possible. Sir, I am saying to the hon. the Minister, and to every member who sits on the Government side, that if they do not face this problem and face it very quickly, we may have created a gulf which neither side of the House will ever be able to bridge. Sir, I am deeply concerned over this particular problem, and I want to say to the Government that to my knowledge they have never done a single thing, materially, in 24 years of rule, to assist the Coloured people. Everything that they have done has hurt the Coloured community and not assisted them. One could mention all sorts of things that happened in the 1950s, things such as the High Court of Parliament and so on, but that is not necessary. Sir, I want to challenge the hon. the Minister, as I did in the debate on the Planning Vote, to return District Six to the Coloured community. I say this in all sincerity because it is not too late. Nearly 34 000 Coloured people still have to be removed from District Six. If he were to return District Six to the Coloured community, he would not have to find housing for those 34 000 odd people. Many of those houses in District Six could simply be renewed and repaired. Sir, this would make a tremendous difference to the housing backlog. I also want to say, Sir, that I do not believe that hon. members opposite will accept this challenge to return District Six to the Coloureds. Nor do I not believe that they will make the Coloured Council fully representatives.

That is a silly suggestion.

The hon. the Deputy Minister says that that is a silly suggestion. Of course, from the point of view of greed it is a silly suggestion, but I think from the point of view of humanity and justice it is certainly warranted. I do not believe that the Government has the courage to do this. I do not believe that the Government cares two hoots about anything except staying in power. [Time expired.]

Sir, we are discussing the Coloured Vote, but I must tell the hon. member for Port Natal a little story. A few days ago I was in Durban. I had the opportunity of talking to a few Indians there. I asked them, “Do you know Mr. Winchester?” Their reply was, “We have never heard of him, Sir,” I then asked them what they thought of their residential areas, and their reply was, “We are highly satisfied with what this Government has given us.” They added that there still were poor residential areas. This man is a venomous politician; I think he should join the leader of the Liberal …

Order! The hon. member must withdraw that.

I withdraw it and say he is a dangerous politician. I think he can join the leader of the British Liberal Party, who made such a venomous speech in Cape Town yesterday evening.

Mr. Chairman, I am under the impression that the United Party has appointed a committee to investigate their Coloured policy. I understand that this committee, according to its terms of reference is to investigate the following: “Coloureds must have equal status with Whites.” This is the central idea of the recommendation of that committee, consisting of United Party members, which is to investigate their Coloured policy. We have already heard a great deal today about the six representatives they want to give the Coloureds in this House of Assembly. I want to ask them: Why only six? If they are working in the direction of an equal status for the Coloureds, why do they make provision for only six representatives? That hon. member in the corner must not tell me now that we give the Coloureds nothing. We are able to motivate and justify our standpoint in respect of a Coloured Persons Representative Council. Let me come back to that now. I should like the hon. member for Wynberg to tell me why there should only be six representatives of the Coloureds in this House.

Why discrimination?

Yes, as the hon. member for Parow says, why discrimination?

But you do not give them any.

Are the Coloureds still unripe in the eyes of the United Party? The hon. member for Salt River should really go and push trains, Sir; he is bothering me. If he wants to make a speech, he should rise and speak. I want to put this question to the hon. member for Wynberg now. Sir, it seems to me she cannot reply to this; perhaps she is not allowed to. I want to ask her: Why, in terms of their policy, do they want only six representatives of the Coloureds in this Parliament? Why not more? The criticism is levelled at us that our policy has no morality and no justice. But if, in terms of United Party policy, 2 million Coloureds may have only six representatives in this House, then surely there is something wrong according to the United Party, with the Coloured’s political development and with his standards. I think I can conclude with that point. I can just tell the United Party that they are people who hold out the prospect of certain things to the Coloured people which they subsequently do not want to give them.

A great deal was said here this afternoon about housing. I took the trouble to inquire from the Department of Community Development what the housing position among our Coloureds was today. I want to tell you, Sir, that this National Government had to remove the Coloureds from the worst slum conditions which, according to Senator Horak, were created by the United Party. This Government had to remove them from there and give them decent housing. For example, since the promulgation of the Group Areas Act, more than 150 000 houses have been approved for our Coloureds. That is a tremendous figure. More than 40 000 houses for our Coloured population are being planned at Mitchell’s Plain, and yet the hon. member for Newton Park speaks of hardships and says that we apply discrimination. I think if there have ever been people who owe this Government a debt of gratitude, it is the Coloureds for what the Government has done for them in respect of housing. When one thinks of the shanties and the miserable conditions under which those people had to live, I want to make the statement that group areas have brought about a totally new dispensation—I almost want to say a new revolution—in respect of housing for Coloureds in South Africa.

It is true that there are people who are never satisfied. I want to refer to a columnist of Rapport, who calls himself Gus Adams. I do not know who he is, but I think sometimes this writer should at least be grateful as well. In this particular article he is just like the Cape Times, and it seems to me the two of them are blood relations of the United Party, because the Cape Times refuses to open its eyes and to see what has been done and is being done for our Coloureds. This Mr. Gus Adams —I presume it is a pen-name—on occasion wrote the following in Rapport: He addressed the article to White local authorities, and mentioned the names of mayors and town clerks. He asked, “What are you doing to promote sport among the Coloureds in your area?” We know what the position was before 1948 when I was still a young boy. Allow me to tell you what the position is today in many parts of our country. Let me tell you about my own constituency. I had a discussion with the chairman of the Coloured Committee at Worcester, a certain Mr. Neethling. I chatted to him about the sporting facilities which the White municipality had given them and I want to mention to you what they have. I think that when we have heard this, our friend Gus Adams would have to agree with what Mr. Kearns said on occasion (translation)—

Our Coloured community at Worcester has five standard rugby fields, an athletic track, two soccer fields, five cricket fields, five concrete tennis courts and a cycling track around the athletic track. In addition, a swimming-bath with a pavilion is being constructed. This is only one example. I think we can probably quote numerous cases where White local authorities are helping our Coloureds to do well in the field of sports as well. That is why the Proteas were able to put up such a good performance against the English touring team a few days ago.

Just look at the Athlone Stadium.

I think we can congratulate them and the chairman of their rugby board, Mr. Loriston, on being able to co-operate so well with the Rugby Board of the Whites and on their wonderful achievement. I think I have reason to say that we hope they will still progress a great deal in future and be able to undertake the tours they envisage.

The English said that Athlone was one of the most beautiful fields on which they had ever played.

The hon. member for Parow says the English said that Athlone was the most beautiful field on which they had ever played. I think it is a beautiful field they have there.

I should like to mention a figure I found very interesting when I read it, and that is to what extent the Coloureds have progressed in the economic sphere. I want to link this to one industry and to one article, and that is the motor car. It is said in an article I have here that the ownership of motor vehicles among the Coloureds has increased from a mere 19 500 in 1962 to 40 800 in 1966, and it is estimated that this figure will be 110 000 in 1970. The article goes on to say (translation)—

I think I can conclude by saying that we as White Afrikaners, the National Party, have good intentions with our Coloured community. We are at least honest with him. We say to him: “We give you the Coloured Persons Representative Council”, to which we still do nominate a certain number of members. But the samething has happened throughout our own history. From 1814 in the 19th century, the Cape Colony had to develop over a period of almost 70 years from a bureaucracy to responsible government, which they obtained only in 1872. It took the Cape Colony almost 70 years to develop to that stage politically. We want to say to the Coloureds that they must utilize their opportunities. They must develop in the political sphere; this Government will assist them as far as possible. [Time expired.]

Mr. H. VAN Z. CILLIÉ: Mr. Chairman, it has been stressed on several occasions by this side of the House that, of all the burning issues facing South Africa, that of establishing and maintaining sound race relations is the most fundamental. In spite of a large, well trained army which is equipped with modern weapons, and a police force, the 4 million Whites of South Africa will not be able to maintain themselves unless we live amicably and harmoniously with the rest of the peoples living in South Africa. This is the field in which the Government of the moment has been found guilty and stands condemned in the eyes of all right-thinking people, here and overseas. The Nationalist Party protests that its policies, including its race relations, are founded on Christian principles. Did Christ teach His followers to circumvent solemn pledges such as an entrenched clause by employing devious measures? Did Christ teach His followers to exploit their fellowmen in all fields of human endeavour if their skins are off-white as happens in South Africa? Did Christ teach His followers to imprison their opponents without giving them a fair trial?

*Did Christ teach His followers to force defenceless people from their homes without providing them with adequate alternative accommodation with the necessary facilities? Has this Government’s arrogance and high-handedness caused it to forget that Christ’s teachings were and are based on love and not on hate, prejudice, discrimination and exploitation? The United Party has been warning for many years that the Government’s race relations policy can only fail. Did the hon. the Minister pay any recent visits to the Coloured slums which his Government created? Did he see the idlers, the unemployed and the neglected there?

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member from what he is is reading?

Does he not realize that it is precisely there that the danger point in South Africa is to be found? Coloured leaders joined Bantu leaders recently in starting to warn the Government that particularly the young people in their ranks were beginning to adopt a militant attitude. At present the Coloured Persons’ Representative Council has no significant powers. As has been said, it is merely a rubber stamp which has to implement Government policy. This frustration is increasing dangerously. When we consider the position of the Coloured nurses, we clearly see the Government’s discrimination emerging. How do their duties and salaries compare with those of White nurses?

†When Coloureds are engaged in Government service, platform ticket examiners become barrier attendants and are consequently paid a lower wage. Similarly a shunter becomes a train compiler and he too is paid a lower wage. 60 per cent of all Coloureds earn a wage which is below or just at the breadline. Up to the early 1960s the salaries and wages of Coloureds grew from 50 per cent to 80 per cent of those of Whites, but now this gap has once again been widened. In 1970 it was about 50 per cent of the White salaries and wages. How can these discrepancies be justified? Many a Nationalist argues that everybody born with a White skin has an inherent moral and intellectual superiority over everybody else whose skin is off-white. The hon. Minister of the Interior in a recent speech said, and I quote him:

We know that the hon. the Minister of Labour and the hon. the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions have on two occasions completely repudiated this statement. However, the hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs has made no response to this statement. I ask him to tell this House where he stands in this very serious matter.

*The hon. the Minister announced his policy of a parallel road for Whites and Coloureds and of a twin Parliament with great seriousness, but no thinking South African, whatever the colour of his skin, could wax lyrical about this policy because it is quite rightly seen as a colossal bluff.

†I would urge the hon. the Minister to take another long look at the role which the Coloureds must play within the South African context. Let us seek common ground between them and us, accepting that both have a common loyalty to South Africa and, secondly, that each has a contribution to make towards a better South Africa. I think the time is past for us to indulge in clever politics. What is demanded is statesmanship of the highest order. I believe that the United Party policy points in this direction. We say that the Coloured should be uplifted as soon as possible in the socio-economic context. We say that improved housing, social and civic amenities are essential. Improved schooling is essential. Consultation at all levels must be followed. Closing the wage and salary gap is essential. A fully elected Coloured Representative Council with meaningful powers is necessary. Defined representation in Parliament on a separate roll must be implemented. If this policy were to be implemented, the Coloureds of South Africa would lose their militancy and would become worthy partners of the Whites in building a better South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, I want to express a few ideas on the University of the Western Cape. Reference was made here this afternoon to the small number of permanent lecturing staff who have thus far been appointed to that university from the ranks of the Coloured people. I want to say to this Committee, and to the Coloured people as well, that nobody in or outside this House is more anxious than I that Coloured persons should be appointed there as lecturers and professors and has tried to do more in this regard than I have. The position is that, with the best will in the world, it is not an easy situation. The Opposition, who spoke about this matter this afternoon, were in fact too late in the field, because the Coloured people themselves have already raised this matter with the hon. the Prime Minister at these liaison meetings which are disparaged so much, at which meetings the matter was thrashed out thoroughly.

But your Vote is under discussion.

This matter was thrashed out thoroughly there and both the hon. the Prime Minister and I asked for names of Coloured academics, graduates whom we could appoint or could have appointed to the staff of this university. Names were given to us. I followed up each of those two cases in detail. There were one or two persons whom we could have appointed, but whom we could not get because they were earning higher salaries in the private sector and would not come to us. One or two were appointed, but subsequently resigned, the one in order to enter the ministry. Surely one cannot take it amiss of someone if he resigns in order to enter another sphere. The other persons whom we could get we could not have appointed, except if we had been prepared to abandon certain standards. Then there was one field of study at this university in respect of which we could obtain people, but in which there has so far not been a single vacancy to which we could have appointed someone. Can one say to someone who holds a position: “You are here permanently; but I want you to leave now because I want to put somebody else in your place?” Surely that would be absolutely unfair and unreasonable. And this afternoon, while the hon. member for Wynberg was speaking, I asked her to mention one or two cases so that I could reply to her on them. I have the information with me. But the hon. member has not done so yet. She merely held a piece of paper aloft and said she had a whole list.

I shall write a letter to you.

I then asked her to send the list to me. I have been sitting here all afternoon and have not yet received that list. The hon. member kicked up a terrible fuss about it.

I shall write to you.

I shall wait for that list until 11 o’clock on Thursday morning.

Yes, certainly.

Then I can deal on Thursday afternoon with the names submitted by her. I shall not mention the names of the persons concerned, but shall refer to them as A, B, C, etc. I have the same list as the hon. member, but let her send me hers. This afternoon we have again been made out to be everything which is bad and dishonourable. We allegedly damage and break down relations. We have been accused of all those things here this afternoon on the basis of that type of argument which has nothing in it.

You haven’t done much in 24 years.

That hon. member should rather not enter this discussion, because he has no knowledge of this matter. I do not want to waste my time on him either now. We are doing absolutely everything we can. For example, we shall introduce a new course at the university next year, namely one in dentistry. I should like to make the following statement in regard to the introduction of this faculty of dentistry at the University of the Western Cape. On the recommendation of the Council of the University of the Western Cape I have approved that, in co-operation with the school of dentistry of the University of Stellenbosch, a degree course in dentistry be introduced at the University of the Western Cape as from 1973. The first two years and part of the third year of the course will be offered at the University of the Western Cape, while the course for the remaining years will be housed in a section of the dentistry building in Parow which is being erected specially for this purpose and which will be made available to the University of the Western Cape by the University of Stellenbosch on a compensation basis until the first-mentioned university has its own facilities. The University of the Western Cape will be responsible for the appointment of staff, but it is envisaged that staff for the clinical and professional sections of the course could be obtained on a part-time basis from the University of Stellenbosch. This staff will be responsible to the Senate of the University of the Western Cape for the tuition and examination of the students, and the degrees will be conferred by this university. A limited number of Indian students who have successfully completed the basic first year course at the University of Durban-Westville, Natal, and who fulfil the entrance requirements set by the University of the Western Cape, may be admitted to the course from the second year.

Mr. Chairman, in regard to the medical course which has been referred to here today, I want to say that we are still actively thinking in that direction. In the building programme of the university we shall make provision for the necessary lecture halls and facilities for certain basic subjects with a view to introducing a medical course at our university. We are keeping in close contact with the provincial administration and with the M.E.C. in charge of hospital services, so that when another hospital is built for Coloured people, it may be built at the University of the Western Cape. We shall try to arrange matters in such a way that we shall subsequently be able to develop the hospital as a teaching hospital attached to a medical faculty for the Coloured people. However, these are matters about which we should not become too enthusiastic. In speaking about these things, we are perhaps speaking in terms of 10 to 15 years before the first doctor can be produced. But it is receiving our attention.

I have a few minutes left and should like briefly to discuss the question of artisans which the hon. member for Walmer raised. As the hon. member said, there is a technical college in Port Elizabeth. According to my information, there are at present seven enrolled apprentice mechanics attending classes at that college. In reply to his proposal, the position is, of course, that the training of apprentices is governed by the Apprenticeship Act. I cannot get around that with the best will in the world. In terms of the Apprenticeship Act there are apprenticeship committees, which must approve the enrolment of an apprentice with an employer, otherwise it is not a valid apprenticeship contract. There simply is no short cut. After four years, that apprentice may have himself tested, and if he passes the test, he need not complete the fifth year. I have also discussed the matter with a former Minister of Labour, the present Minister of Transport, and have been informed that there simply is no short cut. Our problem is that there are far too few Coloured motor mechanics. Like my predecessor, the present Minister of Labour, I have been trying to do something in this regard, ever since 1970, but we are thwarted by the trade unions, who do not want to allow it. We can do nothing about it. All they say is that Coloured boys are welcome to enrol with Coloured motor mechanics. The trade unions are perfectly satisfied with that. However, they are not satisfied that a White member … [Interjections.] That hon. member who is kicking up such a racket should keep quiet. They are not satisfied that a White member of a union should take in a Coloured boy as an apprentice. I can do nothing about that. People from all language groups belong to those trade unions. [Interjections.] What is that hon. member saying?

I said you have a kind heart.

The hon. the Minister may proceed.

In any case, this is the situation we are faced with. We are trying another method now, namely to see whether we cannot develop garages in the Coloured townships. This will not be enough, but it will at least help. I do not want to go into the scheme now, but in this regard we are receiving assistance from, amongst others, the petrol companies and certain other parties. We have worked out a formula according to which we shall have these garages in Coloured townships. It will be a condition that these garages will have to take in Coloured artisans as mechanics. I want to see whether we cannot set to work more rapidly in order to get more of the boys in there. At this stage, however, I have no other plan.

I now come to the question of salaries which was discussed here today. I found it notable that the hon. member for Newton Park said that a survey taken in May, 1970, showed that the salaries paid in industry to Coloureds were 26 per cent of the average salaries paid to Whites.

Compared with what they earned previously.

The Coloureds?

Yes.

Is it not 26 per cent of the earnings of the Whites? That is how I understood the hon. member. If he did not mean that, I shall leave the point there.

It was 40 per cent at first, and later it dropped.

Then it dropped to 26 per cent. That is correct. I do not want to say anything about this now, but I just want to put the matter in perspective because of the reproach levelled at the Government in view of the percentage salary it pays the Coloureds. It is not as low as. 26 per cent. Nor is it 40 per cent. It is much higher; it is approximately 60 per cent and more. I am just saying this to put the matter in perspective. That is the position, and I said last year what my standpoint is in this regard. I am continuing to strive for this. I have already drawn up another scheme which I shall try to implement in due course. If I can do this, I shall be satisfied that I have made good progress. But that is all I can say about it at the moment.

I said last year that we were endeavouring to reach a situation where we would be in a position to consider what we call, in popular terms, “the rate for the job”. I am still striving to promote this within the, call it a formula, which I announced here. I am actively engaged in this. I just want to say that the United Party, of course, also has certain standpoints on this. I remember having read that when the hon. the Leader of the Opposition opened their congress in Port Elizabeth last year, he said that in this regard it was their policy “To ultimately close the gap”. Well, the word “ultimately” was so offensive to many of his people that the very next week-end the hon. the Leader was invited to attend a dinner and address a group of people in Port Elizabeth. That evening he did not speak of “ultimate”; that evening he said “at once cannot be too soon for me”. Therefore we see a tremendous difference within a period of only four or five days. Sir, [Interjections.] What I am saying now is true. Those hon. members may go ahead and do what they like. Then he said at his Bloemfontein Congress—that was the last statement of which I know— “as soon as possible”. Well, I do not know why I was reproached so much here today. This matter that we do not pay equal salaries for the same type of work was mentioned as one of the points causing bitterness, friction and frustration. I remember the hon. member for Newton Park saying this as well. I think the hon. member for Wynberg also said so. Now the same argument is being used again. We are reproached, and those members present us to the Coloured people as scoundrels, suppressors and heartless people. We are blamed for the estrangement existing in a situation which they handle in exactly the same way, or even worse than we do. I merely ask now: What is the morality in such an argument? Mr. Chairman, let me just look for another little subject while the clock ticks on.

You may move that I report progress and ask leave to sit again.

No, perhaps I may find something for another half a second. Then I shall continue on Thursday, if I live that long.

As far as the Group Areas Act is concerned, it is the position that many Coloured families have been resettled. I cannot argue about the figures furnished here today. But it is the case—I do not know what the percentage is—that virtually all the people or the vast majority of these people were removed from miserable conditions and placed in better conditions. The United Party now wants to place the Group Areas Act on ice. I do not want to play politics in the Coloured Affairs debate of 1972, because to us this is an important matter. But they now want to place the Group Areas Act on ice. Very well, let them do so.

That is not true.

That hon. member —does he not attend his party’s congresses?

Of course I do.

But his own Leader said this; I have his statements here with me, but I shall give them to him on Thursday.

Please do.

The Group Areas Act must be placed on ice now; it must be withheld for a while and the only removals there would be, would be in terms of the Slums Act. Those were the words of the hon. member’s Leader. What would actually be the objection if these people were removed in terms of the Slums Act? I have said this before, and I want to repeat it before sitting down: To me, the Group Areas Act—and I have given a great deal of thought to the matter—remains the best instrument by means of which to bring about the separation we desire between races, if it is applied in a just and sympathetic way.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 23.

House Resumed:

Progress reported.