Order! The Constitution Amendment Act was promulgated in Government Gazette No 11295 today.

The effect of this is that as from Monday, 9 May, the Houses will conduct their business according to rules of procedure adopted by them.

Certain items on the Order Papers have already been partially dealt with according to the Standing Orders of the Houses and the Joint Rules, and will now be proceeded with in terms of the new Rules, as adapted by this ruling.

In the case of an appropriation bill the new Rules provide that the bill is introduced at the First Reading stage and finally disposed of at the Second Reading stage. The Second Reading stage of the Main Appropriation Bill has already been disposed of in each House in terms of the Joint Rules and its Standing Orders and will for the purposes of the new Rules be regarded as the First Reading stage. Votes already agreed to will be regarded as disposed of. Votes not yet agreed to by the Houses will henceforth be discussed and disposed of in terms of the new rules of procedure.

When the votes have been disposed of, the bill will be placed on the Order Paper for Second Reading. The same arrangement will apply to the appropriation bills of the House of Assembly, House of Representatives and House of Delegates.

Amendments to bills appearing on the Order Papers will in terms of Rule 150(4) be recommitted, together with the bill, to the joint committee concerned, and the approval of the Second Reading of the Bill in terms of the previous rules will for the purposes of the new Rules be deemed to be the conclusion of the debate on the Second Reading. The provisions of Rule 151 will apply to such bills, ie the consideration of the report of the joint committee and a decision on the Second Reading of the bill by the Houses.

Other bills on own affairs of a House, the Second Reading of which has already been moved, will be disposed of as though the new Rules have not been adopted, except in so far as the House concerned may by resolution determine otherwise. If the Second Reading has not yet been moved, a memorandum on the objects of the bill or a copy of the proposed Second Reading speech by the member in charge of the bill must be supplied to every member of the House concerned.

Mr Speaker, I move without notice:

Agreed to.

Order! Before I put the relevant Votes once again, I want to respond to the point of order raised by the hon the Chief Whip of the Official Opposition yesterday.

The ruling given by Mr Speaker, to which the hon the Chief Whip of the Official Opposition referred and on which he based his argument, related, inter alia, to the discussion in the House of the report of the Auditor-General which was referred by the House to the Standing Select Committee on Public Accounts for consideration before the standing committee had considered or reported on it.

In this case what is at issue is the discussion of a report of the Advocate-General which has not been referred by the House for consideration but which has been Tabled in the House and is therefore already public knowledge.

The latter case is therefore clearly distinguishable from the case to which the aforementioned ruling by Mr Speaker related.

Aside from that it is clear from the aforementioned ruling by Mr Speaker that the right of this House and this Committee to discuss a matter at any time is not even restricted by the reference of such a matter to a select committee. In the case in question Mr Speaker contented himself with an appeal for co-operation.

Points of order ought to be raised immediately, or as soon as possible after the grounds for them have arisen—compare Standing Order 136(1)(d). In the present case the point of order was raised only after the speeches that had been objected to had been made.

Under those circumstances the point of order as raised by the hon the Chief Whip of the Official Opposition cannot be upheld.

Vote No 10—“Development Aid”, and Vote No 11—“Education and Training” (contd):

Mr Chairman, yesterday evening, before progress was reported, I dealt briefly with certain aspects of the Development Aid Vote.

I now want to continue and, as was the case during the discussion of the Vote last year, I have to issue a warning once again this year that the increase in the allocation to the self-governing territories, this time one of 38,1% or R949 million, does not in reality make an appreciable increase in funds available.

This increase represents, inter alia, the following: The carry-over effect of improved conditions of service which were introduced during the previous year, R195,6 million; the carry-over costs of improved social pensions which were also introduced during the previous year, R59,4 million; special aid in respect of the Natal flood disaster, R55 million; an increase in the funds earmarked for education—this is the only real increase—R159,5 million; the carry-over effect of urgently essential additional expenditure which was authorised during the previous financial year by way of bank overdrafts, but which is being provided for this year by way of an additional appropriation, R305,8 million; and provision for the redemption of, and the interest on these overdrafts during the previous year, R150 million. All these amounts add up to a total of R925,3 million which is therefore already firmly committed.

This means, therefore, that the governments concerned will have to apply extremely strict budgetary discipline in order to remain within basically the same expenditure limits as during the previous year in spite of inflation and an appreciable increase in the need for basic services. Towards the end of last year and at the beginning of this year intensive talks were consequently held in this regard with the Ministers of Finance of the various self-governing territories, in conjunction with the hon the Minister of Finance.

In this regard it is also gratifying to note that in their draft appropriations this year, the self-governing territories have made provision for supplementing the parliamentary appropriation to which I have just referred with an amount of R1 248 million, or R1,25 billion from their own revenue including loans, an amount equivalent to 26,7% of their total allocation.

I want to point out that the self-governing territories, like the provinces, are a form of regional authority constituting part of the RSA—the hon member for Vryheid also put forward this argument in the course of his contribution—in which the rendering of services to the inhabitants takes place on a decentralised basis and the inhabitants of which are also entitled to, and may lay claim to funds from the central Government. Indeed, if these regional authorities did not exist in the self-governing territories, the central Government and the provincial authorities would have had to render those services themselves and find the money for them, probably at a higher per capita rate than that at which the self-governing territories are doing it.

In reply to the allegations that are often made by the left-wing parties about the so-called unnecessarily expensive and duplicatory apartheid bureaucracy, I want to point out once again how basically development-oriented the appropriations of the self-governing territories are in their composition. When we look at last year’s appropriations we find that 25,2% was allocated to health and welfare; 34,7% to education; 17% to the development of infrastructure and township development; 5,3% to agriculture and forestry—admittedly that is altogether too little for this important purpose; and 17,7% for all other essential government services, which also encompass such basic services as the administration of justice, and law and order.

I said yesterday evening—I want to repeat it now—that I agreed with hon members on both this side and the other side of the House in regard to the vital need for control over the effective expenditure of finance in the self-governing territories as well, and that this House had a right to be kept informed in this regard. I deem it necessary to inform the Committee today in greater detail about the degree of control that is being exercised over the financial policy and expenditure of the self-governing territories.

Sometimes accusations are lightly made in regard to alleged general or wide-scale misappropriation or squandering of funds by self-governing territories and independent states. These rumours were recently strengthened by the uncovering of certain financial irregularities at government level, particularly by commissions of enquiry in the Transkei.

Although the constitutional autonomy of the self-governing territories, including their own internal financial controls, is and must be recognised and respected, there are nevertheless many ways in which healthy financial control may be ensured and in which the RSA Government may also keep itself informed on this matter.

The Department of Development Aid also regards it as a responsibility to contribute to such healthy financial management in an informal manner, as well as through the rendering of development aid, and I can confidently state that we enjoy open and sincere co-operation in this respect from those governments as well as their officials.

During the past year an important new forum for co-operation has come into existence in the shape of the Conference of Ministers of Finance of the self-governing territories, which meets in conjunction with the hon the Minister of Finance and myself, as well as our department heads. This forum plays an important informative and motivatory role in respect of macro financial policy, budgetary problems and the determination of the requirements of the self-governing territories. After just the first three meetings of this forum the progress that has been made in respect of knowledge, understanding and insight, as well as in mutual trust, is already clearly discernible. It is my intention to try to involve the Chief Ministers in this forum as well because it lays such an important foundation for the determination of general policies and priorities by their governments in general.

I should also like to point out that the Development Bank of Southern Africa is playing an increasingly important role as a source of finance by way of loans for development projects of a so-called bankable nature. On 31 March 1988 the Development Bank of Southern Africa had already accepted obligations amounting to R817,9 million in respect of projects in the self-governing territories.

Naturally the bank’s process of investigation and evaluation of proposed projects, as well as its supervision and monitoring of their execution, makes an extremely important contribution to improved financial control. In fact, during a briefing of parliamentarians which took place on 27 April this year the bank pointed out that recent financial problems in the TBVC states, as well as in the self-governing territories, had stemmed largely from underfinancing rather than from wasteful expenditure.

I quote from the English text of the information sheet which the bank released on that occasion:

The following words are also used in the bank’s information sheet:

As I have said, the bank also pointed out in its information sheet that what it had to say about the TBVC states also applied to the self-governing territories.

I should also like to associate myself with the hon member for Vryheid, who dealt with the manner in which the media had completely distorted a statement which my colleague the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs made in this House last year. The statement was misapplied and comment on it was loaded with connotations which he had by no means attached to it.

To sum up I want to refer to the same case, and in particular to the speech made by the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs on 8 September last year, as it appears in Hansard. He said the following in reply to a question which the hon member for Berea had put to him (Hansard, 1987, col 5430):

That was how the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs sketched the situation and what he said was that 5% of expenditure was possibly “ineffective”. This matter was discussed in the Financial Mail of 16 October 1987 and in that report entirely different words were ascribed to the hon the Minister. The word “ineffective” was given new meaning. In the words of the Financial Mail what was at issue was not ineffective expenditure, but a “5% misappropriation each year”. The expression “… so endemic has graft and corruption become …” was also used.

The matter was taken further by the Africa Institute in its Bulletin No 2 of 1988. The Financial Mail was quoted from extensively in this bulletin and the words “misappropriated”, “embezzled” and “pilferage” are used. These words eventually found their way into The Argus of 3 March this year, which ascribed the entire approach to the hon the Minister of Foreign Affairs. He began with the expression “ineffective”, but this was followed up in The Argus by entirely different words, namely “misappropriation”, “embezzlement” and “pilferage”.

This is a clear illustration of how imprudently this matter is being dealt with. In saying this, I by no means want to detract from the seriousness of those irregularities which have, in fact, taken place. However, I really should like to point out how vital it is that these matters be handled with circumspection.

The Auditor-General’s reports on the self-governing territories for 1985-86 serve to report on unauthorised expenditure. In them one finds that only 2,6%—and not 5%—of expenditure was unauthorised.

“Unauthorised” is not necessarily irregular or even ineffective.

Accordingly, I want to point out that in recent times a particularly high degree of vigilance has been displayed by the authorities of the self-governing territories themselves in identifying irregularities and in taking firm and effective action against them. I just want to quote a few examples without identifying the territories in question.

In one instance the irregular payment of pensions took place by way of Treasury Bills. The government concerned identified this practice by itself and ordered a police investigation, for which purpose the hon the Minister of Law and Order made available the police of the Special Commercial Branch, and that government also appointed an independent firm of auditors. After investigation, with the help of the organisation division of the Department of Development Aid, the functions were reallocated, the procedures were rectified and in the meanwhile legal steps were also taken against a number of persons.

Another self-governing territory itself established that there had been a misapplication of state transport. With the assistance of the Department of Transport, we were immediately able to help them to investigate that matter, to expose the guilty parties, to institute legal proceedings and also to rectify procedures.

In another instance defective Treasury Bills were issued through misuse of the computer centre. This was established, and remedial steps were also immediately taken and a police investigation ordered, and although this case only came to light in March, a number of convictions have already been made.

In conclusion I want to refer to one other self-governing territory in which, because certain members and former members of the government were involved, the Chief Minister asked that a commission of enquiry into certain specific alleged irregularities be instituted by the hon the State President, which request is now being complied with.

I think it is clear from these examples that the existing control measures work and that earnest action is being taken against irregularities by the Chief Ministers and their governments.

Finally I want to give a review of the statutory audit and financial control measures which apply within the self-governing territories. Firstly the provisions of the Exchequer and Audit Act of 1957 also apply in the self-governing territories, and in terms of section 35 of that Act the Auditor-General of the RSA is also the Auditor-General of the self-governing territories, unless they have made other arrangements through legislation of their own—something which not one of them has done and which, in terms of the new legislation in regard to self-governing territories, will in any event no longer be possible. On the whole there are three levels of financial control measures, namely internal auditing by the government departments themselves, external investigations or inspections by the Department of Finance of the self-governing territory concerned, and auditing by the staff of the Auditor-General.

The internal control is exercised by the departmental head as accounting officer in terms of the financial regulations and Treasury instructions, sometimes with the assistance of a special division that has been established in his department for this purpose. This is primarily directed at control over the review of the work of subordinates by overseers in terms of the regulations, and also at the exchange from time to time of officials within those departments’ financial control divisions.

The external inspections take place through the financial and stock inspection divisions of the departments of finance concerned, particularly to ensure that the control measures prescribed by the financial regulations and Treasury instructions are strictly adhered to.

Thirdly the Auditor-General also has his own officials in each self-governing territory who are engaged there full-time in auditing work, by means of both random and in-depth auditing. Irregularities are reported to the accounting officer with a view to action being taken, and in the final instance the Auditor-General reports to the legislative assembly concerned, whose select committee on public accounts further investigates these matters. The Department of Development Aid receives copies of all the Auditor-General’s reports in respect of self-governing territories and I have instructed my Director-General to forward such reports to me personally with the necessary advice and comment, for attention and action if necessary, and for the purposes of reporting to this House.

Within the current limits placed on the provision of staff, attention is at present being given to the reinforcement of the control and inspection staff at the three levels I have mentioned.

Particular attention is also called for in the intensive training of the personnel concerned. A channel has been created by way of the new Conference of Finance Ministers for the briefing and updating, also at the political level, of Cabinet members and members of the standing committees in respect of the importance of control functions.

In conclusion, the Department of Development Aid is also giving attention within the ambit of its function of the rendering of development aid, to the strengthening of its capacity to render assistance in respect of the preparation of and control over budgets, expenditure control, financial control and general financial administration. There is a need, and even an eagerness, to make use of this assistance, which is truly gratifying.

I trust that it will be clear from this overview to what extent and how earnestly my department and the Government are approaching the question of proper and responsible financial management in the self-governing territories. Should any rumours about wasteful expenditure or maladministration do the rounds, I want to appeal to hon members to immediately bring them to the attention of my department or myself so that the necessary steps may be taken in that regard. No positive contribution will be made by contributing to the further dissemination of rumours. There must be a concentration on fire control measures in order to immediately identify the fire itself, if there is one, and to extinguish it. I shall come back at a later stage, when I reply to the debate, to those specific instances which the hon member for Pietersburg has brought to my attention. I shall furnish him with the necessary replies then.

Mr Chairman, it is a great honour and privilege for me to follow the hon the Minister, a person for whom I have the greatest respect.

Yesterday the hon member for Losberg said something wonderful. He said he supported development aid because his Christian conscience dictated to him that he should. When the hon member had finished speaking I wondered whether he was not a voice crying in the wilderness in that party, who constantly had to admonish his political associates about wild claims that White taxpayers’ money should be used for the Whites only. Is he not someone who has had occasion to say to his hon deputy leader that his Christian conscience can no longer countenance their claims that in 15 years’ time there will be majority occupation in White areas—and all the pain, misery, remorse and hatred which this would give rise to?

As far as I am concerned a Christian conscience springs from the great Commandment that one must do unto others as you would have them do unto you. It was this Commandment, this principle, which came to mind while I was reading through this excellent annual report of the Department of Development Aid. What specifically struck me was the review by the Director-General, in which he made it clear that it was the objective of this department to speed up development in the self-governing states by means of effective, goal-orientated and well-balanced development aid. The challenge which this department is mindful of is that good neighbourliness is the key to peaceful co-existence and that this also promises a better future for everyone in this country. Consequently assistance must be given with a view to encouraging self-respect and a feeling of self-esteem.

Development aid is therefore not the doling out of development by means of funds and/or projects. It is primarily the creating of opportunities for self-development. This department is therefore, in the first place, the channel through which the various Government services administer an own administration in a responsible manner. In order to achieve this the human assets of such communities must be developed, because this is the basis of the success of any organisation. The negation of these principles is possibly the reason why the skeletons of so many so-called democracies lie strewn across the plains of Africa. New, developing states have a need for a wide spectrum of expert manpower, which cannot always be found in their own ranks, particularly if these states are venturing into new spheres and strange fields of experience which are as yet unfamiliar to them.

For that reason this Government is primarily committed to giving assistance to such self-developing states. It does this by seconding suitable expertise. After all, the success of this scheme is linked to the quality, the expertise and the skill of the staff who are seconded. Two groups of officials are seconded. The first group is mainly responsible for functional tasks, such as medical staff. Apart from the functional tasks the second group is also responsible for the training and development of the officials in these other government services.

The popularity of this scheme and its success are apparent from the growing determination of overall needs, which rose from 1 965 to 2 638 between 1985 and this year. This is an increase of 30%. In the same period the actual number of seconded officials rose from 1 454 to 1 705. The budget spent on these seconded officials during the past financial year totalled R59 million. This is a good investment if one heeds a well-known economist who says that development capital is the lubricating oil of an economy.

Since 1974 every Government service has included a training component, because each official in this government service has a constant need for training. For that reason ongoing courses are also presented during the course of the year. Nine thousand officials were involved in such camps. In addition 5 200 functional officials—ie people working in the division for functional services—were involved in this. The department also has a team of training advisers who are constantly at the service of these developing states. The objective is to increase functional administrative skills.

In these training programmes this department is also trying to make this training more scientific. For example the HSRC is making provision for the cultural background and the particular milieu of these communities in these training programmes. In this way the creative potential of communities is being developed to the maximum.

We on this side of the Committee owe a great debt of thanks and this afternoon we should like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to this small but valiant band of seconded staff who sometimes make great personal sacrifices, fearlessly to help build a future which is not based on fear. We want to wish them every success. We on this side of the Committee take pleasure in supporting this Vote.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Smithfield will excuse me if I do not react to his speech. I only have a few minutes at my disposal.

†I want to deal with only one local issue, that relating to the Peelton area in the Corridor in the Eastern Cape. The Peelton area was to be incorporated into Ciskei. It now finds itself in the position that the tribe which inhabits this area, the Imingqalase tribe, is divided in two because the border between the Ciskei and South Africa runs right through this area.

The background to the Imingqalase tribe, which inhabits the Peelton area, is that more than two centuries ago, in the 1750s, the tribe moved from what is now Transkei into the area between the Great Fish and the Kei Rivers. Ever since then it has inhabited what is now called the Peelton area.

This is a closely knit community and as I said, it is now divided by the Ciskei-South Africa border, in the form of the railway line which runs through the Peelton area.

Order! The noise level in the Committee is too high. Hon members must lower their voices if they have to converse. The hon member may continue.

The result is that members of the same family live on either side of an international boundary. This causes a tremendous feeling of insecurity among those living on the South African side as to whether the Government is really serious about keeping them under South African jurisdiction. I would appreciate it if the hon the Minister could once again confirm that Peelton will remain in South Africa. Cattle dips, for example, exist only on the Ciskei side, and the people in South Africa therefore have to cross an international border to have their cattle dipped. There is no upliftment in terms of education facilities or infrastructure like roads and telephones. All these aspects have been neglected because of the uncertainty and the lack of clarity as to what is going to happen to the tribe.

A resident’s association which, I am persuaded, represents the overwhelming majority of people living in the Peelton area on both sides of the border has had discussions with the Kei Road Farmers’ Association, which supports the claim of the Peelton people that the border should be relocated from the railway line to the line formed by the fence along the tar road which leads to King William’s Town. That would have the effect of getting the people of Peelton back into one unit and also back into South African territory. I believe that the majority of the people want to live under South African jurisdiction and not under the jurisdiction of the Ciskei government.

The Kei Road Farmers’ Association has made representations to the Eastern Cape Agricultural Union urging them also to make representations to the hon the Minister, as well as to the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning regarding those aspects for which he is responsible, to investigate the relocating of the border between South Africa and Ciskei in that area.

I ask the hon the Minister to give us an indication as to whether discussions on border changes have taken place between South Africa and Ciskei. If one looks at newspaper reports like that in the City Press of 10 April 1988, one sees that there are once again rumours that there will be forced removals from Peelton. This was not based on anything more substantial than the utterances of a chief in that area. All these speculations and rumours result from a lack of clarity about the future of the divided community of Peelton. It would assist them greatly if the hon the Minister could clarify the matter and give greater certainty to those people.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow the hon member for Durban Central. I do not want to go into details on this subject, but it is clear to me that this hon member of the NDM has spoken about something very important this afternoon.

*I should very much like to know whether this movement is now in favour of group ethnicity and group ties, because this afternoon obvious recognition was given to tribal ethnicity, tribal ties and group ties. If this is on the table we must start to debate it.

This afternoon, in the rest of the time at my disposal, I should like to say a little more about the important role of the development of man. In my opinion a country’s greatest asset is its people, and the quality of these people is even more important, because their quality and the way in which they live together in one country, or in different countries, but with one common bond, the RSA, which links them is going to be decisive to the relations which can be built up, the development of people here and in what spirit they experience this country. For that reason I consider it very important to be able to say this afternoon that the Department of Development Aid is unselfishly making a major contribution towards developing these people, particularly in the self-governing territories in this country.

Is this partition?

They are dedicatedly involved in developing people. I have always felt that agriculture can play a very important role as the basis for each country’s development. As a matter of fact, South Africa owes its origins to agricultural development because of the need for food and the need for a trading station where certain services could be rendered. The South African agriculture developed out of that need. The position in which certain groups of people and certain population groups began to find themselves in certain parts of the country developed over the years, but owing to the course history took, other population groups in this country did not get the opportunity to develop agriculturally in the same way the Whites developed. For that reason I think that the role which the Department of Development Aid, and specifically the STC, is playing in bringing about this development is very important and today we should discuss this briefly.

Why should a country develop its agriculture? In the first place it does so to make itself self-sufficient as regards food. In the second place we are dealing here with employment opportunities and the creation of employment opportunities, and thirdly in this way we want to activate the general economy and really get it going.

There is one basic principle we shall have to bring into prominence in these self-governing areas, the trust areas, namely the establishment of freehold and entrepreneurship. The basis of entrepreneurship is to own something and to have something to work for. For that reason I want to argue very strongly this afternoon that the South African Government, particularly where it has a say with regard to land which still has to be transferred, should appeal seriously to the people in those areas to establish freehold as the basis of capitalism so that we can put across the free market system as part of the civilising process of a country, and so that we can do away with communal systems which give rise to the overutilisation of the resource—grazing—which frequently leads to erosion in some areas. That is why I say it is so important for these areas not to be left to their own devices, and we find that in this regard the Department of Development Aid is excelling in three specific spheres.

The first is the development of those areas earmarked for transfer to self-governing areas, and to ensure that an orderly agricultural community is established there; secondly to render assistance where trust lands exist, to get agricultural activities going, to prevent production from deteriorating and to assist in ensuring that those areas are really productive. In the third place we must work towards co-operation in the self-governing areas. It is extremely important that …

Order! Some hon members other than the hon member for Cradock are coming over loud and clear.

*Only the hon member for Cradock may proceed.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

I was saying that in the third place it was also important for this branch of development to make an important contribution in self-governing and independent states, and we should take cognizance of the legislation which was amended to afford this organisation the opportunity to do this.

While I am at it, let me congratulate Mr Frik Weyer this afternoon on behalf of this side of the Committee on his promotion. He is now in charge of a very capable team who diligently play their part.

The development of the South African Development Trust Corporation is based specifically on resource surveys, research, extension and the settlement of people. These things are therefore taking place on an integrated basis. During the past year they carried out resource surveys on 412 800 ha. They published 200 volumes, in addition to eight overall reports. They provide complete management programmes and production information on a farm basis. Research is undertaken on production systems, cultivation practices as well as mixed production systems, in order to achieve the most economic utilisation of land.

The STC does not simply leave the people there. They also provide extension services. When the land is handed over development usually takes place in co-operation with these communities. They became part of the planning process, and these agriculturalists are very closely involved in the service rendered by the extension teams. Settlement only takes place on economic units, and intensive areas are used solely for agricultural cultivation. Denser settlement therefore takes place outside these intensive agricultural areas.

It is also important to consider that during the past few years 10 000 employment opportunities have been established in those areas on a very cost-effective basis.

I should like to dwell for a moment on the integrated approach of the STC. A special division for human development was established, which was aimed at establishing youth and sports clubs, undertaking self-help programmes with regard to the building of houses, needlework and housekeeping, day-care centres and clinics. This afternoon I therefore want to appeal very strongly for us to use the clinics in particular meaningfully. Meaningful planning of the rural areas in the self-governing territories is absolutely essential. I see that the total population of those states who are urbanised at the moment varies between 4,1% and 23,3%. This is one of the basic reasons why we are battling to get a population development programme off the ground. That is why we are also battling to get agriculture off the ground. That is also why I am appealing strongly for freehold settlement—a denser settlement with agriculture around this denser settlement. Then we feel we can contribute meaningfully to the development of agriculture.

Once these people have really been settled and development has been undertaken on an integrated basis, they are not simply left to their own devices. Co-operative service centres are established, where training is provided in connection with financial management, as well as extension with regard to mechanical farm management. Even mechanical training is given. Marketing is also handled by these people themselves.

When one stands on the Makatini Flats, it is very important to see the pride of these officials. They take you to the agriculturalist—the Black man standing next to his pickup truck—who shows you that this truck is loaded with cotton of the highest quality, which is graded and marketed by these people themselves. They are surrounded by a crowd of happy, smiling workers on the lands, who are grateful for the way in which they have been helped.

However, what I felt was most important was the look of satisfaction and gratitude on the official’s face when he indicated that 10 officials could keep 1 000 farmers happy. That is what I consider to be important. These people showed us that agriculture could make an important contribution towards achieving constitutional stability and economic independence.

Mr Chairman, I want to welcome the hon the Minister’s statement about the effective financial controls in the self-governing territories. There was general public concern regarding this matter, and I hope his setting out of the existing controls will help reassure the taxpaying public that hard-earned rands are not being embezzled or misspent in any way. This will not, however, necessarily reassure the public that their money is not being squandered or misspent or misdirected in some way.

There is a general concern that the self-governing territories, like the TBVC countries, are a bottomless pit into which limitless funds are being poured, and I would hope that the hon the Minister will in due course give his attention to this matter as well.

There are two other matters that were raised during the course of the debate yesterday which I want to comment on briefly. The one is the question of land.

I believe the sooner the Government accepts the fact that it cannot be bound forever by restrictions in Acts that are more than 50 years old, the better for all of us. More land has to be made available for Black occupation. This is essential if we are not to have conflict in this country.

Secondly, mention was made yesterday quite frequently of a Black Minister or a Black Deputy Minister being brought into the Cabinet to attend to Black education. I believe that this is a too timid approach because it will not satisfy the basic and fundamental Black political aspirations. We have to accept the fact that our problems will not be solved until Blacks are represented in this Parliament on an equal basis common roll with all other South Africans.

I believe the annual report of the department to be lavish and extravagant. Although the information provided in it is important and informative, surely three or four pages of large colour photographs of the top officials, as handsome and goodlooking as they may be, are not necessary. The small section relating to the self-governing states is important and of great value, and will be kept for reference purposes by many hon members interested in this department.

I understand that this report cost R42 000 to produce. I regard this amount as being far too expensive as the same amount of money could have built five houses in, for example, Khayelitsha, or many more houses in the rural areas. Instead of producing this glossy report, five or more families could have been housed. Other departments have produced roneoed, typed reports which are quite adequate and informative. Incidentally, many of the departments report to the end of December of the previous year whereas the information contained in this particular report, as valuable as it is, is as at the end of February last year—almost 15 months ago—and therefore not that topical.

Because of the general election we had a short recess last year but nevertheless I managed to visit Gazankulu where I viewed the joint farming venture undertaken by the Gazankulu Development Corporation and the Anglo American Corporation. This is a noteworthy attempt to assist the farmers of Gazankulu, and one would hope that this experiment will be repeated in other self-governing states.

In KaNgwane I attended the opening of the current legislative assembly and noted with approval that vast sums of money are not being squandered on expensive legislative buildings but that a hall in the youth centre at Matsulu will be used for this purpose. It is a modest item of expenditure and the government of KaNgwane is to be congratulated in this regard.

In KwaNdebele I visited Ekangala again, together with Ekandustria and the industrial area developed by the Bronkhorstspruit municipality south of the railway line which forms the boundary between South Africa and KwaNdebele. The Bronkhorstspruit Town Council has gone to a great deal of trouble to develop this industrial area, and one hopes that the plans of the Government to incorporate Ekangala into KwaNdebele will not have a deleterious effect on their efforts. It is obviously more difficult for industrial land in the area developed by the Bronkhorstspruit Town Council to be sold because the same benefits do not apply in that area as do apply in Ekandustria. This is, therefore, a matter which I feel has to be handled carefully, and I should like to ask the hon the Minister to take these factors into account.

I must say, Sir, that one of the joys of being in this place is to know that the hon member for Turffontein is so predictable. He assumed that I would speak last night and prepared a speech attacking me for my views on KwaNdebele.

I made one remark.

I want to say I believe that the situation in that territory has not changed since I raised the issue during the discussion of this Vote last year; in fact, it appears to have worsened as a report in The Star of Tuesday, 3 May, indicates that an indemnity bill has been passed by the KwaNdebele Legislative Assembly. According to the report, this has been condemned by various lawyers as a violation of human rights. The bill is retrospective to December 1985 and is apparently an admission that the KwaNdebele Government has acted unlawfully, both criminally and civilly, over these past three years. I am pleased the South African Government is dragging its heels on the issue of KwaNdebele’s independence, and I hope it will allow the situation to calm down for some considerable time before considering granting independence.

I am aware of the points that have been raised by the hon the State President, and I hope that the situation will be allowed to calm down.

I want to raise an issue regarding the self-governing territories. This is a delicate matter, and I hope that the hon the Minister will not misunderstand my motives. It is a source of concern to the governments of a number of self-governing states that the quality of White officials seconded to those governments is not always of the highest standard. The overwhelming majority of individuals posted to the self-governing states are dedicated, hard-working people, but it must be understood clearly that there is occasionally a bad apple in a barrel. In some cases there is concern at the fact that these people could have been selected more carefully.

During the course of the recess I also visited Botshabelo. In case the hon member for Turffontein feels like attacking me on the question of Botshabelo next year, I should warn him that I might very well discuss some other matter during next year’s debate on this Vote.

Botshabelo is to the east of Bloemfontein, and the population is officially estimated at approximately 400 000. However, the people living in that area estimate that it is closer to 600 000 or 650 000. It is approximately four times the size of Bloemfontein and, after Soweto, South Africa’s second biggest Black city. Originally, following the achievement of independence by Bophuthatswana, it was a resettlement camp. Now it is a vast sprawl of shacks and shanties with very little infrastructure. I must say that the small industrial area attached to Botshabelo makes Ekandustria look like a thriving industrial city.

I was told that wages were pathetically low, some as low as R15 per week, or R60 per month, and this in an area where wages are subsidised to the tune of 95%. Job opportunities are at a minimum because of the limited number of factories in the area and, as a result, Botshabelo becomes a transit camp during the week, while mothers and fathers spend from Monday to Friday in Bloemfontein or neighbouring towns attempting to earn a living, leaving their children in Botshabelo.

A survey showed that 74% of the children attending a school apparently lived on their own because both parents were away working during the week. Such a situation results in abnormal social conditions, such as malnutrition, prostitution and crime. There is a disgraceful lack of services, and I await with great interest the reply of the hon the Minister to the question that I tabled some weeks ago concerning facilities in this town.

The day I visited Botshabelo followed four days of almost continuous rain. The roads were a quagmire of shifting mud, many of the poorly built houses were collapsing, sections of the area were cut off to people travelling other than by foot, and there was a general air of decay and misery. I understand that people have flocked to Botshabelo from all areas of the Free State, and that there has been a massive influx during the past few years. There simply has to be a programme to upgrade the area in order to allow for decent living standards and job opportunities.

I hope that the hon the Minister will apprise us of what steps he hopes to take to improve the situation in that area. It really is in need of urgent attention.

Mr Chairman, in the first place I should like to tell the hon member for Johannesburg North that it is essential for us to take a look at what is happening in Botshabelo.

The hon member also made a particularly interesting statement here, with which the CP and the NP must agree. He said it was a foregone conclusion that the Blacks had to have more land. But he said this straight after he had said that these Black areas were a “bottomless pit”. Those were his words. Of course development aid is not only going to Black states, but also to these Black areas. [Interjections.] If this is his point of departure I want to ask him, who is going to manage this land which is given to the Blacks. Will development aid have to be provided there, yes or no? Once he has that development aid there, is he again going to say that it is “bottomless pit” into which the taxpayers’ money is being poured? Our problem is that we struggle with consistency when we talk to one another.

Before I go any further, I want to refer to a report which appeared in yesterday’s Sarie regarding the crown princes of Parliament. One of the designated crown princes was the hon member for Potgietersrus. [Interjections.] Today I want to tell that young hon member that he will remain like the frog in the fairytale for as long as he behaves the way he behaved yesterday and for as long as he behaves towards venerated and respected older people in the way he behaved towards the hon the Minister …

Would you like to be in Sarie?

Order!

… and does not remember the lessons on having respect for older people which his father or mother taught him. Until he is kissed by decency, he will remain a frog. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: May an hon member refer to another hon member as a frog?

Order! I listened attentively and I also initially thought that the hon member for Heilbron was out of order. However, owing to the way in which he phrased it, namely by referring to the fairytale, his reference to a frog was in order. The hon member for Heilbron may proceed.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

Mr Chairman, owing to a lack of time I shall not reply to questions now. I am also grateful, Sir, to see that both you and I are Calvinists and do not confuse the figurative with reality.

The development aid which the Government is giving to the developing areas has two basic objectives. The first objective is to develop a work ethic among the people to whom we must give assistance. The second objective of development aid is to develop business expertise among those people. If we do not succeed in developing a work ethic and business expertise among the people to whom we are giving the development aid we shall find ourselves in the same chaotic position as the rest of Africa, irrespective of what the CP says about partition.

This brings me back to another statement made by the young hon member for Potgietersrus, and I assume that the hon member for Lichtenburg will refer to this again later. The CP has adopted the standpoint that they do not begrudge any people what they demand for themselves. The CP grants every people the right to be governed in its own country by its own people.

I want to suggest politely that the hon member for Lichtenburg should create an opportunity to reply to the following questions when he speaks again this afternoon. Who is going to identify the country which is each people’s own and within which, as he mentioned before in this House, nationalism must flourish? Who is going to identify that country? Are the Whites going to identify the country or are the Blacks going to do so, or is this going to be done jointly? That is the first point.

There is a second and very important point. Whose money is going to be used for the assistance which has to be given to these Black areas? Are the hon members who refused to tell us this yesterday, going to tell us today whether White money is going to be used for this purpose? Are they going to reply that White money is going to be used or are they going to say, as the hon member for Lichtenburg said three years ago during the debate on partition, that these people will have to pull themselves up by their own bootlaces, that they will have to look after themselves or are they going to say that the CP is also going to set aside White money for the development of the Black areas?

If he says that the Whites cannot set aside money for the Black areas I want to ask him—he is a man I respect because he was a Minister before I became a member of Parliament—whether he does not know about Crossroads and Khayelitsha. Surely he knows that if one does not develop the Black areas one may as well shoot the people at the borders because they will not stay in an area where there is 80% or 90% unemployment.

Today I wanted to say a few words about the role of the Development Bank of Southern Africa and the development aid which South Africa provides. Fortunately two aspects of my speech have already been well covered by the replies of the hon the Minister and by certain references which the hon member for Turffontein made about how we shall have to take another look at the total development aid package.

The reason for my request that we should take another look at this matter, as the hon member for Turffontein indicated, is based on the following: When the Development Bank was established in 1983 it was established to serve as a bank which renders international assistance in Southern Africa. At that stage it was established to operate in the TBVC countries as well as in the SLB countries.

In the course of time its function changed totally from a bank which would only give assistance to these independent states and only for economically viable projects, into one which gave development aid, not only to the self-governing territories, but also in the areas of jurisdiction of the township authorities in South Africa. In the memorandums of association we now find that this bank must venture into the field of development and the industrial sphere.

The position is that when we talk about development aid, we are dealing with four independent states, six self-governing territories, 12 development corporations, the Department of Development Aid and the Department of Co-operation and Development, the four provinces as well as the Department of Trade and Industries which all provide funds for development.

If one also takes into account that the Development Bank also gives assistance, as does the STC, and that the Land Bank may also venture into the field of development later, the question arises whether the time has not come to take another look at the entire development package. It is not that we doubt their good intentions and effectiveness but it is surely a recognised business principle that when one has launched certain projects and one wants to make a success of them, there must be an ongoing process of monitoring, follow-up work, re-evaluation and rectification.

For this reason I am asking the hon the Minister today whether we should not take a serious look at the matter to ensure that the entire development aid package is not only effective but is also well controlled to the maximum benefit of those people in whose interests it is being implemented.

I take pleasure in supporting the Vote.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Heilbron touched upon quite a few points which could elicit a lively debate. The first thing he did was to make some very disparaging remarks about my colleague, the hon member for Potgietersrus. [Interjections.] I can understand hon members opposite getting the jitters when the hon member for Potgietersrus confronts them, because they are no match for him. [Interjections.] They cannot hold their own against him. [Interjections.]

I also want to tell them that it is tragic that all the words the hon member for Potgietersrus used in his speech yesterday when referring back to a speech made by the hon the Minister earlier this year, in March, were the precise words the hon the Minister had flung in his teeth. All he did was to give the hon the Minister back what he got and show him up for what he was. Now they are angry about that. [Interjections.] The hon member who said yesterday that he was old, said that it had shocked him. It also shocked me that a senior person, and a senior hon Minister to boot, spoke in that way to a junior member of Parliament, when he himself cannot take it when he gets back some of his own medicine. [Interjections.] That is why he is so touchy.

The hon member also referred to crown princes. I think it would have been extremely interesting if the hon member had told us about the present status of their crown princes. [Interjections.]

Order!

Is that a cordial issue or is it not all that cordial?

It is an own affair!

Oh, is it an own affair? [Interjections.] We accept the fact that it is an own affair which sometimes spills over slightly into the sphere of general affairs.

The hon member said that we should tell him what our standpoint was about development aid. I would very much like to do so. I want to tell him and hon members opposite that the CP is in favour of development aid to the Black states. We are prepared to make sacrifices and to make a contribution towards helping to build up and develop those states. We are also prepared to use White money in our effort to do so. [Interjections.]

The important fact, however, is that if only White money were to be used to develop those states, nothing would come of it. It would always be merely a contributory measure. The actual major contribution to the development of those states will have to come from the people themselves, from their capabilities. That is the only way in which a people can grow to maturity. A people can never grow to maturity on the strength of outside help. We are prepared to contribute, but we are not prepared to offend their dignity by not enabling them to develop into a people of great stature and responsibility. In that sense we are prepared to use White money to contribute to the development of those states.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon member?

No, Sir, the hon member must resume his seat. After all, he did not want to answer questions.

I again want to tell hon members that the CP states that there are a few norms with which this assistance must comply. The White money which is contributed must firstly be money which the Whites are capable of contributing. After all, we cannot be expected to give more than we can afford, more than we are able to give. The second point—hon members say this themselves—is that the assistance should be effectively employed and should serve the purpose for which it is budgeted. Thirdly, we say that that assistance should lead to the greater independence and self-realisation of those people. It must also increasingly help those people to stand on their own two feet and to initiate their own projects and not make them increasingly dependent on the Whites. [Interjections.] I am also saying that that assistance should preferably be granted on a project basis, as is done elsewhere in the world. The funds must be paid out in terms of individual projects, as the overall project develops, so that goals are actually achieved.

In this budget expenditure has increased by 33,6%. Let me tell those hon members that this is not an amount which the CP is opposed to perse. We do, however, want to have it subjected to these norms we have laid down. Today the hon the Minister himself said that there was inefficiency. When we told the hon the Minister that last year, those hon members said we were gossip-mongering. They asked whether we did not want homeland development. Surely that is part of our policy. Of course we want it, but we do not want the money paid by the Whites to be wasted. It must be effectively utilised.

Our standpoint is also that we are prepared to contribute towards partition and the creation of states, and we are prepared to make sacrifices for that purpose. In no way, however, are we prepared to contribute towards integration. [Interjections.] That is what those hon members are prepared to do. They are also prepared to promote integration.

The hon the Minister referred to the report of the Development Bank of Southern Africa on the irregularities that took place. In the report the hon the Minister himself said that here the emphasis fell on the TBVC countries, but the report itself stated that this also applied to the self-governing states and even to Black authorities in the White area. The amount involved in the case of the self-governing states was of the order of R393 million in 1986-87.

I now want to quote the same passage which the hon the Minister quoted:

In other words, we do not disagree about that—the major portion was not the result of wastefulness, malpractices or fraud, but the smaller portion was. That is specifically the point. Last year we said that these things were happening. I now want to ask the hon the Minister whether he can give us an answer.

Last year we asked for an investigation into a specific case, that of Botshabelo. The hon the Minister said that an investigation was, in fact, being conducted. Can he now tell us what the situation there is? Reference was made to Botshabelo. We are in favour of development taking place in Botshabelo and we are also in favour of development aid being made available for Botshabelo. We are not, however, in favour of their continuing with the wasteful practices which we know have taken place there.

In that regard we say that any body which contributes development aid is entitled to ensure that it is efficiently and effectively employed. No person in the world who gives presents, no bank that lends one money, does so if there is no prospect of getting it back or if it serves no purpose.

Our standpoint is therefore that we are prepared to contribute, but we are implacable about the fact that there must be no wastefulness. Part of the process of gaining independence is to be able to utilise money, not to promote wastefulness, but to promote responsibility.

In the report it was stated that corruption played a role. The report also indicated where the funds came from and which funds were involved in the corruption. The report stated that it was money voted by this Parliament, stating that it involved overdrafts for which the South African Government had signed surety.

In other words, it is the duty of this Government to ensure that what is voted for development aid is efficiently utilised and not wasted. It is in the interests of the taxpayers who will grow reluctant to contribute, but it is not in the interests of the governments who receive the money if they do not realise that it is hard-earned money from taxpayers who are hard-put at this stage. This report also stated what should be done.

The report stated that a sounder policy should be implemented. On page 14 the report very clearly went on to state what should be done. The first thing that should be done is—

Another important aspect of development is not simply to distribute presents, but also to ensure that the people receiving the assistance fully exploit their own sources of revenue and that the contributions of the specific people are fully utilised. That is true development. Simply giving hand-outs is not development. Then one is offending the pride of that people. One is not helping them to develop, but helping them to become beggars. The CP is not in favour of that. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, as in the case of certain hon members who spoke before me, I should also like to give attention to a few aspects concerning agriculture, and more specifically the settlement of small-scale Black farmers in the self-governing states and on land under the control of the South African Development Trust.

Before I come to that, I merely wish to refer to the half-hearted way in which the Official Opposition has participated in this debate. I think that as far as this House is concerned that half-hearted approach is scandalous. I do not think the Official Opposition’s chief spokesman on development aid is worth anything at all. I also think that the Official Opposition should replace him with someone who is prepared to adopt a standpoint. [Interjections.] The hon member for Heilbron specifically asked the hon member, when it came to partition, who would divide up the land and who would make the final selection if South Africa’s land were to be divided up any further than it is at the moment. Are the Black people going to divide up the land, with the White people doing the choosing, or are the White people going to divide up the land, with the Black people doing the choosing? What is their standpoint about that? Why does he not adopt a standpoint?

We did so a long time ago.

He is the chief spokesman of the right-wing radical Official Opposition, but he refuses to adopt a standpoint. I think they should appoint a chief spokesman who can adopt a standpoint and have the hon member Mr Derby Lewis replaced by Eugène Terre’Blanche. At least we know at least where we stand with him and can speak to him and argue a point in this House.

How are things in the Broederbond at the moment?

I think the Official Opposition should replace either Mr Derby Lewis or the hon member for Carletonville who is so keen on resigning his seat every now and then. I challenge the hon member to resign his seat and to allow Eugène Terre’Blanche to stand in that constituency. Would the hon member be prepared to do so?

You just resign your seat.

The hon member is muttering under his breath, but I shall make things even easier for him. I want to know from the hon member for Lichtenburg, the Deputy Leader of the CP, whether he would allow Mr Eugene Terre’Blanche to stand as the CP’s candidate in the next by-election.

You just resign your seat.

I am asking the hon member whether he would be prepared to allow Mr Eugêne Terre’Blanche to stand as the CP candidate. Mr Terre’Blanche himself would like to know too.

Order! I am not going to permit a dialogue between the hon members for Sasolburg and Lichtenburg.

Sir, you can see why I am saying that the hon member does not adopt a standpoint. [Interjections.] In regard to extremely important matters such as partition, embodying the radical redistribution of land in South Africa, he cannot do so. He does not want to adopt a standpoint. I asked him a simple question about whether he would allow a specific person to stand as his party’s candidate in the next by-election, but he does not want to adopt a standpoint on that either. I think Mr Terre’Blanche will take note of the ineffectual attitude of the Official Opposition which does not want to adopt a standpoint on that issue.

Permit me to turn my attention to the question of the settlement of Black farmers in self-governing states. The purpose of this is to establish individual entrepreneurs on so-called economic units. Those economic units must make it possible for a family to be self-sufficient, and they must also furnish additional cash-income. Agriculture must therefore be based on a market-orientated production system and not merely be a subsistence enterprise. It should be run on commercial lines. There are also other objectives such as job creation and the development of the surrounding communities. That is true.

A fine example of these development processes is the establishment of small farmers in the coffee-growing projects in the self-governing territories and also in Venda. At present 1 500 ha have been developed, and the intention is to develop a further 5 400 ha, 3 450 ha of which have already been identified. The average size of these farming units will be between five and seven ha, and the present 1 500 ha can accommodate approximately 750 farmers on the existing plantations. This ought to give these families a disposable income of R6 000 per annum. The department determines the disposable income by deducting direct production costs, compulsory rental for land, interest and redemption on capital items from gross income. This leaves one with a sum which is called the disposable income.

When reading through the annual report, I was a little disappointed that so little attention was given to the whole question of the Black farmer’s right to own land. Too often emphasis is placed on the communal system of entrepreneurship, and frequently it seems as if attention is solely focussed on renting this land out to Black people, on co-operative farming systems, on kibbutz systems, on moshav systems and so on. In regard to these Black farmers in South Africa, however, it is extremely important to give attention to entrepreneurship based on the rights to own property.

Property ownership remains one of our most important weapons against communism. It is one of the most important measures against terrorism and the overthrow of the system. Property ownership forms the basis for the system of private initiative and private entrepreneurship. I am really disappointed that the department gives so little attention to promoting land-ownership amongst these Black farmers, even if they are only small farmers.

I am therefore asking the hon the Minister to give urgent attention to ensuring that proprietary rights are also established in these newly developed farming areas.

One could initially hire out the land to these Black entrepreneurs, but with an option to purchase. Financial institutions must therefore be established in any event. The SA Land Bank will find the money and can then make it available to financial institutions within these Black states, or self-governing territories, which can then administer further loans. In my view it is vital to create a market for land in these specific regional economies, which cannot of course be independent from the rest of South Africa, to allow a market for land to develop, land which develops a capital value and which one can leave to one’s children.

This hon Minister is doing brilliant work. We wish him everything of the best, but we also urge him to give momentum to the development of land-ownership by the small Black farmers.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow on the hon member for Sasolburg. I fully agree with him on the question of land-ownership rights for Black farmers, and I want to deal with that later in my speech.

I also want to associate myself with the comments made by the hon member for Lichtenburg. There is no doubt that there is a need for closer scrutiny regarding the manner in which the funds that are voted by this Parliament are utilised. While I am on that subject, I also just want to say that I do not agree with all that the hon member for Johannesburg North had to say about Botshabelo, but I will also be dealing with that a little later in my speech.

In the first instance, I wish to support the appeal made by the hon member for Cape Town Gardens yesterday for a parliamentary select committee to investigate all aspects of the report of the Advocate-General relative to the acquisition of the Ivis Interactive Video System by the department. I must point out that the Advocate-General’s report is feeding continual speculation. The air needs to be cleared and I would appeal to the hon the Minister to take the necessary steps to ensure that the good name of his department remains unscathed.

While it may not be entirely appropriate, I do consider it apt to slot into this debate a short tribute to the late Bishop Zulu who devoted so much of his time to the development of KwaZulu, and who would have had close links with this department. Bishop Zulu’s dedication to the upliftment of the Zulu people will long be remembered by the many who were fortunate to have benefited from his untiring efforts, and I, too, feel equally proud to have known this gentleman.

I am also particularly pleased to be able to participate in this debate today because it affords me the opportunity to comment on certain activities of the STK in the light of the visits I made to Botshabelo and KwaNdebele towards the end of last year. May I stress, at the outset, that I was extremely impressed by what had been achieved in these areas in a comparatively short period. I realise that this conflicts considerably with those views of the hon member for Johannesburg North, but I think a lot depends on the spirit in which one undertakes such investigations. It was clear that one of the motivating factors that had contributed to the successful development of these areas, was the excellent spirit of co-operation that exists between officials of the STK and the residents in those areas. I can only commend in the strongest terms the officials concerned for their dedication and for the success that they have achieved in infusing enthusiasm, trust and a sense of pride among the people with whom they work.

This has to be seen to be believed.

I want to say too that the critics of the decentralisation system would do well to take note of the socio-economic advances that have been made in areas like Botshabelo, Ekandustria and Siyabuswa, and to measure these against the frustration that unemployment is causing in and around some of the larger developed towns in the country. The question I ask myself is why we do not sell this side of the good news that comes from South Africa. I want to thank Mr Weyer, in particular, and also those officials who made my visit to Botshabelo such a memorable occasion.

In the few moments left to me I should like to turn my attention once again to the future of the SADT farms in the Boston and Impendle districts. Firstly, I would seek the assurance from the hon the Minister that the indigenous natural forests that occur on farms in the Deepdale Valley will be preserved in toto as a single conservation area. I must point out that I have made repeated representations in the past in this regard.

Furthermore I would suggest that serious consideration be given to the training of young Black farmers on these farms to enable them to be sufficiently experienced and qualified when the time comes for the farms to be transferred to KwaZulu. In the third instance the replanning of these farms should commence without delay so that viable units can be made available to accommodate the Black farmers of the future.

Furthermore, Sir—and this is where I agree with the sentiments expressed by the hon member for Sasolburg—it is essential that the SADT farms in this area be made available to prospective farmers on the basis of land ownership and not on the basis of adding further tracts of land to the tribal authority. In this way Black farmers could become involved in the free-enterprise concept, which is a prerequisite to any form of successful farming.

Finally, I want to commend the manager of the farms in the Boston area, Mr Greyling. I can assure the hon the Minister that through a somewhat critical but experienced eye I am satisfied that these SADT properties are being extremely well farmed.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to follow on the hon member for Mooi River. He is making constant and constructive contributions here, and we appreciate that.

There are certain areas in South Africa which fall outside the national states and outside the periurban areas occupied by Black South Africans. These Black areas lie in rural South Africa and are administered by the South African Development Trust. In the old trust areas the inhabitants for decades practised a pastoral agricultural subsistence farming with the young men adopting a migratory labour pattern. The inhabitants lived out their customary lives and attended mission schools in an atmosphere of contentment. As in the rest of Africa, however, a population explosion occurred and the Trust areas suffered environmental degradation, a depletion of resources and a lack of basic facilities.

Last year I sketched the administrative background to the policy of the Department of Development Aid for the upliftment of these people. The migration of the more enterprising people from the rural areas to the cities left those remaining behind in a situation of stagnation and poverty, and facing a decrease in agricultural production, a loss of natural bush and soil erosion. This was not a result of policy but a result of a natural phenomenon—that of urbanisation.

It is the department’s difficult and urgent challenge to break this circle of poverty and to establish a permanent and integrated rural development. The department’s policy is one of complete reform of these communities. The requirements of the people must be identified and their own skills and aptitudes developed in order to enable them to become self-sufficient.

Scientific research has shown that the quality of life in the rural areas is in fact lower than that in the metropolitan areas, with a correspondingly higher birth rate. The department’s task is therefore to improve the socio-economic conditions on Trust land.

The secret of success is not to pour millions of rand into unproductive schemes of temporary assistance but to invest in the skills and educational upliftment of the Black rural population in order to establish a viable community. The money provided in paragraph 2 of Vote 10 is intended precisely for this purpose.

Time does not allow me to detail the tremendous programme of development aid that has already been carried out. Improvement in education facilities, primary health care, family planning and elementary handcrafts and home industries are but a few examples. The Government has placed a high priority on home ownership and the establishment of orderly townships and accompanying infrastructure on Trust land. In fact, last year we spent R150 million on just that. We have also provided tremendous infrastructure in towns such as Botshabelo, and Lethlabile which was only proclaimed in 1985 has received the necessary infrastructure and 3 200 serviced erven at a cost of R24 million for the 9 600 inhabitants.

The department is also developing and upgrading Soshanguve in the Transvaal and Inanda in Natal. The department adopts a highly scientific attitude to Trust land and its utilisation. The land acquired varies from totally undeveloped land to intensively developed agricultural land such as the Zebedelia Citrus Estates and Chalumna pineapple farms. Potential studies are also undertaken by the department, and these have revealed certain ecologically sensitive areas which sensibly have been reserved for conservation purposes. In this regard I think of the seven-mile bush area in Natal and the 18 000 ha of highly erodable mountain land in QwaQwa.

To some extent the hon members for Cradock and Sasolburg dealt with agriculture. I should like to amplify what they said and deal a little further with agriculture on Trust land.

In regard to agriculture on Trust land, the department has three main objectives. These are, firstly, to maintain production and existing infrastructures taken over by the Trust; secondly, to develop land to the stage of optimum utilisation of the natural agricultural potential of the land; and thirdly, to ensure the orderly transfer of the land to the recipient state.

The development of Trust land is dependent upon the natural agricultural potential of such land, the purpose for which the land was acquired, and the aspirations of the resident community or the prospective residents. The old traditional land tenure system resulted in the inefficient use of the resource base, the excessive fragmentation of land, and inadequate investment owing to a lack of security of tenure in respect of that land. Crops and livestock also lacked protection.

The department is solving these problems in two ways. Firstly, where people are to be settled on a communal basis, a movement away from the traditional subsistence fanning to a commercially oriented system is propagated. Farmer support systems are introduced including education, agricultural extension, co-operatives, credit facilities and marketing. In 1987-88, 7 812 residential sites, 2 791 arable holdings, 81 boreholes and 61 concrete reservoirs were provided. It is planned to develop a further 53 400 ha in this way during 1988-89.

The second solution is the establishment of the individual Black farmers, something to which many hon members have referred this afternoon. The idea of the department is to establish a strong, independent middle class of Black farmer. This is a radical departure from the traditional system of the past, but it is reaping a very rich reward.

In the course of this year, 1 038 Black farmers have been settled or plan to be settled in the self-governing states, and this is an enormous step forward. I would like to substantiate what has already been said in this debate, namely that we must encourage them to acquire ownership of their own land.

I wish to conclude by mentioning that some of the oldest trust land, probably dating back to 1936, is in my constituency. I am referring in particular to Mooiplaas and Newlands. These areas are still gravely underdeveloped, but they are the home of thousands of Blacks whose future lies within South Africa. They have no recipient state and are surrounded by White farms.

A potential for conflict exists, and my request to the hon the Minister in this instance is that his department conduct an urgent in-depth survey into the Trust land potential of these two areas. I suggest that the individual Black farmers be settled along the inner perimeter of these settlements. This would defuse any potential friction between the interests of the White farmers and the large Black populations. The boundaries should also be defined with adequate fencing.

Black South Africans have great ingenuity, and the department has the ability and will to unlock that ingenuity. The Development Aid Laws Amendment Bill passed this session will assist that process.

I have no doubt that the department, under the able guidance of the hon the Minister and his excellent staff, will ensure that the rural Black populations of this country residing on Trust land will be directed on the road to a brighter and a better future.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for King William’s Town will excuse me if I do not respond to his well-prepared speech.

"Although we are discussing development aid this afternoon, I am going to talk about Black education, since I was unable to make my speech yesterday.

I believe that any attempt to resolve the present educational crisis in our schools is doomed to failure unless the political stalemate regarding the political rights of the Blacks is resolved. In this political struggle we have on the one hand the Black community, as represented by the young students, and on the other hand the minority government, as represented by the department and the hon the Minister. [Interjections.]

The Black schools insist on the creation of a truly democratic, non-racial South Africa, in which all people will have rights and privileges in terms of the Freedom Charter. That is why they are insisting, among other things, on the introduction of parent-teacher-student associations at Black schools.

On the other hand we have the minority Government, as represented by the hon the Minister and his department. Their reaction to the students’ demands, such as the establishment of the PTSAs, is purely politically motivated.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is it in order for the hon member to refer to the Government as “the minority government”?

Order! The hon member for Claremont may proceed.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is the hon member entitled to refer to the Education and Training Vote at this stage, while the Development Aid Vote is under discussion?

Order! The hon member for Claremont may proceed.

Since these PTSAs pose no threat to any educational standards, one could have expected the department to react positively to this request.

You should just get your facts about the PTSAs…

I should like to hear the hon the Deputy Minister’s reply at a later stage. [Interjections.]

Because the department has a clear political objective, namely to maintain the State’s control over Blacks, and because the PTSAs would weaken this control, the hon the Minister and his department are refusing to recognise there organisations.

That is not true.

Is it not true? Does the department recognise PTSAs, then? Is the hon the Deputy Minister prepared to negotiate with them? [Interjections.] No, I do not wish to be led astray.

If the department had rejected the creation of these PTSAs merely on educational grounds, the decision might still have been acceptable, but since this is not the case, and since the department has based its reaction to all the demands on political grounds only, the students and the community are resisting it. [Interjections.]

That is ANC politics! [Interjections.]

Hon members may call it whatever they like; what I am saying is the truth. [Interjections.]

†This situation will only be remedied if the Government accedes to the demands for the introduction of a truly democratic non-racial society. The fact that the Government flatly refuses has set it on a collision course with the Black community. By having banned or restricted virtually all truly representative Black political movements, the schools, which cannot so easily be banned or closed down, have remained as one of the few places in the Black community where Blacks can vent their demands and mobilise against this Government.

And you organise them.

They are wide open to be organised by anybody. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members must give the hon member for Claremont the opportunity to deliver his speech in relative quiet. The hon member may continue.

This is what the hon the Minister and his department have come up against. Their response to the situation has been abysmal. Instead of defusing this volatile situation by addressing the legitimate political demands of the community and instead of recognising the PTSA’s with whom they can negotiate, the department has sent in the security forces …

Nonsense!

I will use examples. The security forces were sent in to do the department’s dirty work. They have been used in two ways. Firstly, the security forces have brutally repressed movements with which the hon the Minister should have been negotiating such as the National Education Crisis Committee, the Democratic Teachers’ Union and various student organisations by means of restrictions, bannings and harassment. There is nobody left in leadership who they can negotiate with to bring the crisis to an end.

In the second place the security forces have been used to prevent parents, teachers and students from meeting to discuss the means of resolving the present crisis. When the PTSAs wanted to meet on 14 January this year at the Nonzwakaze church in Guguletu for the purpose of explaining the new registration process to the community, the SA Police blocked the entrance to the church. The police blocked the entrance to the church again when the PTSAs wanted to meet there on 20 January even though they wanted to report back to the parents about a meeting they had had with the hon the Minister. [Interjections.]

This police action is fundamental to the present crisis. Had these meetings been allowed to take place there would probably not have been the crisis we are now faced with where about 1 000 students are locked out of schools.

In all this the department has not remained neutral. While the police have been doing the dirty work the hon the Minister has not invited these people to use the school. They cannot even meet on the school premises. They are also locked out of the churches. Does that hon Minister allow them to meet instead on school premises? No, he has not even allowed them to meet on school premises to enable them to discuss their grievances.

I had more than eleven meetings with them last year!

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Claremont cuts a very interesting figure in this House. He is like a phantom. He only makes an appearance now and then, and when he does, it is to inflame these people’s emotions and to speak for the audience out there. I do not want to react to the hon member’s speech at any length, but there are a few things I want to say to him, because I think that the hon the Minister will deal with him quite effectively.

The first reality is that the Government’s standpoint is not to have security forces and police at Black schools. What is important, however, is that those school buildings are community property. It is the task and the duty of this Government—the hon member may argue to his heart’s content—to protect the community and its property. The hon member, however, is not prepared to face up to the facts. He can tell his public audience whatever he wants to, but we shall effectively continue to govern this country with a view to granting that protection.

I should like to turn my attention to the process of urbanisation in South Africa. It is a well-known fact that the national growth rate of the Black population groups in South Africa is very high. It is an equally well-known fact that the growth rate in the rural areas, such as the TBVC countries and the self-governing areas, and also in White rural areas, is higher than in the urban areas of South Africa.

It is an equally well-known fact that the population growth rates in these areas outstrip the job-creation rates in those rural areas. This inevitably gives rise to increasing pressure on the basic resources in the developing areas. People simply have to exploit their resources to survive. To ensure survival, they must exploit the existing basic resources. These circumstances also give rise to increasing urbanisation in the Republic of South Africa. It is a trend which is expected to be reinforced by the natural pattern of economic development and job creation in the Republic of South Africa.

Recent research figures indicate that the expected urbanisation trends will have increased very sharply by the year 1995. I should like to highlight a few of these for the Committee.

In the areas to the north of Pretoria, which also include Bophuthatswana, KwaNdebele, Venda, Gazankulu, KaNgwane and Lebowa, there are indications that urbanisation will increase at 2,6% per annum up to the year 1995. In the Pretoria-Rosslyn-Ikangala complex urbanisation will increase by 4,3% per annum.

In the Eastern portions of the country, chiefly Natal, KwaZulu, Ciskei and QwaQwa and also Bloemfontein and, of course, its immediate environs, the expected growth rate in urbanisation will be 1,8% per annum.

Urbanisation in the Durban metropolitan area—perhaps the hon member for Lichtenburg should start listening now—will increase by approximately 3,9% per annum. The central portions of the country, which exclude the Free State, Bloemfontein and QwaQwa, but include portions of the PWV area south of Johannesburg, are expected to urbanise at a rate of 5,2% per annum. The rate at which the PWD metropolitan area itself will urbanise is expected to be 6,4% per annum.

In the southern portions of the country urbanisation is expected to increase at 4,1% per annum. The Cape metropolitan area, which is situated within this area, can be expected to increase by 8,7% per annum. Seen as a whole, we are talking of an urbanisation trend of 3% per annum.

In real and practical terms, if the normal rate of increase of the population present in the urbanised areas is taken into account we are looking at 8,8 million more Black people in cities by the year 1995.

This means that the overall population distribution of all population groups in the RSA will evidence the following pattern: In the national states there will be 17,7 million people, 3,3 million more than today. In the metropolitan areas as a whole there will be 15,9 million people. This is 5,3 million more than at present. In the non-metropolitan areas we are looking at a Black population of 10,9 million, which is 2 million more people than at present. What is interesting is that of this overall population, only 5,8 million will be Whites.

If one examines these figures logically, two very clear trends emerge. Firstly there is the fact that the influx of Blacks to the urban areas is irreversible. In the days when there was optimum implementation of the policy of influx control, that influx could not be checked. I think the electorate should also take note of the fact that in the days when the hon the deputy leader and leader of the CP were in the Cabinet, they could not check that influx either. [Interjections.]

The reality of the situation is that the urbanisation process in South Africa, in the TBVC states and in the self-governing territories is of cardinal importance. The urbanisation in the deconcentration points and the major metropolitan areas can evidence a tremendous increase.

Natal is a very interesting example of this. It is therefore interesting to go back for a moment to the time when the hon member for Lichtenburg spoke about Natal and quoted all kinds of figures. It would also be interesting to check those claims of his, for a moment, against the realities of the situation.

I contend this afternoon that the success achieved in reversing the flow of Blacks to KwaZulu was the result of consolidation and a purposeful urbanisation policy by the NP Government, and by this hon Minister, his department and his officials.

In Natal we are looking at Black urbanisation which could proceed unimpeded in the metropolitan context. In Natal we are looking at a deconcentration and decentralisation policy which was successfully developed and which could serve as the basis for population settlement. In the Natal areas we are looking at the most efficient metropolitan structures in South Africa. The successes in Natal indicate the essential elements of a successful urbanisation policy.

The question is, of course, whether alternative policy guidelines or, as the hon member for Losberg said yesterday evening, the granting of assistance or development aid is merely the result of a Christian conscience. The question is whether it would be possible to implement that approach in an area where we could not ignore the realities. [Interjections.]

Would the CP be able to implement it in this country without forever subjecting the taxpayers to transport subsidy payments and a low standard of living? I want to ask whether the CP would create opportunities for large-scale urbanisation near the job opportunities available to the people. Could the CP provide mass transport systems which were not dependant on unlimited, sustained subsidy payments? Could the CP create opportunities for affordable housing—those hon members must listen—for poor people? [Interjections.] I want to tell hon members that a person would only fight for this country ideologically and stand up for this country’s rights if he were in a position in which he had something to lose. He would only do so if he had something to lose. The question is whether the CP could give effect to the development of efficient urban structures and systems. Could they establish and run an efficient planning and development system which also had to function in partnership with the private sector?

My bench-mate tells me I have one minute left. One could say a great deal. I only want to make one point: In striving to achieve its urbanisation objectives, it has been possible for this government to give people a say in their own affairs and joint responsibility in those matters in the sphere of urbanisation which, in this case, effect more than one party. With this decision we could open up the benefits inherent in urbanisation. Owing to the effectiveness of this hon Minister and this department it has been possible to bring about a dramatic improvement in the economic growth rate in the various areas. I just want to mention two examples.

The gross national product of the self-governing territories was increased by 18,6% between 1975 and 1980. The contributions of those states to their own budgets were increased by 5% during the same period. I want to contend that the Government’s policy gives effect to optimal orderly urbanisation.

I conclude with a plea that we vote more funds for this effective department. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I find it a pleasure to thank hon members at the end of this debate because I think that even hon members who are critical of the Government made constructive contributions on the whole, with the exception of the hon member for Claremont, of course. I think the hon member for Pretoria Central replied to him very effectively in a few sentences.

It struck one that the hon member for Claremont’s speech was riddled with the usual cliches, slogans and terms of the radical left. I think that in quite a few cases he made absolutely unjustified generalisations about isolated facts. I want to emphasise in particular that he insists on negotiation with self-appointed so-called representatives of the radical groups, whereas it is my practice and policy and that of the department and my colleague to negotiate, I would say at any time, with representatives chosen by due democratic process of the parent community, the teaching community and parent-teacher associations, of which there are literally hundreds at various schools, which were instituted by proper procedure and are recognised.

I want to convey a few brief words of thanks to hon members on this side of the Committee.

The hon member for Vryheid concentrated his contributions on the question of financial control and effective expenditure. I dealt with this in detail this afternoon.

I referred last night to the hon member for Turffontein’s idea in connection with a White Paper and how it was being followed up.

The hon member for Smithfield made a very sound contribution on the role which personnel secondment plays in the aid-furnishing function in respect of development.

The hon member for Heilbron referred to the Development Bank of Southern Africa. As regards his contribution, I want to react briefly to two points. He said that initially the Development Bank handled only economically feasible projects. That formulation could lead to a misunderstanding because the Development Bank was specifically not intended to handle normal economically feasible projects which could be afforded from normal bank financing but to take up what a person would call “subeconomic” projects. Such projects are certainly “feasible” but require a degree of subsidy through Government support.

The hon member correctly advocated that there should be good co-ordination between the various development bodies. I want to warn, however, that one can turn this into somewhat of a caricature. He mentioned quite a few bodies but those bodies all have a clearly defined function. Nobody could harbour any doubts about the responsibility of the governments of the self-governing territories, the governments of the independent states and the development corporation of each of them. There is no overlapping and it is clear what their functions are. In the same way the relationship between the Department of Development Aid and the Department of Foreign Affairs is very clear.

The only possible area where confusion could arise is between the two departmental bodies, namely Foreign Affairs and Development Aid on the one hand and the Development Bank on the other. In order to arrive at a clear demarcation of area, an explicit agreement was concluded which, I think, creates order in this matter and arranges it altogether satisfactorily.

Hon members on this side of the Committee made important contributions, particularly in connection with agricultural development and the establishment of individual entrepreneurship among Blacks in the agricultural sphere. The hon member for Cradock made a very good contribution here. He was followed by the hon member for Sasolburg who dealt in particular with the cultivation of coffee. The hon member for King William’s Town spoke on the development of trust areas, especially in his vicinity.

†I would like to give the hon member the assurance, with regard to a point he mentioned just in passing, namely the need for proper fencing of the Black settlements in the areas to which he referred, that it is in fact Government policy to provide the same kind of fencing between the surrounding areas and the Black settlements as is provided between self-governing or independent states and the RSA. This policy will now be implemented in order to ensure proper neighbourliness among these groups.

*The hon member for Sasolburg made a critical remark that adequate attention had perhaps not been paid in the annual report to the acquisition of rights of ownership regarding agricultural land. This is an important point but I want to assure him that, as far as settlement on new land is concerned—that is land which is developed by the department before it is transferred to the self-governing areas—the programming in its entirety is specifically directed at rights of ownership.

Initial settlement there is on a rental basis but it is planned to convert it to property acquisition as rapidly as possible with proper provision for financing through loans so that farmers bear the full economic responsibility, also in regard to capital costs of the land within its agricultural production value, as is the case in the rest of agriculture in the country.

On the other hand it is not so easy to introduce individual property rights on tribal land. I want to refer here to an important breakthrough which was made after some of the KaNgwane chiefs came to the department to advise them on methods by which individual property rights could be introduced in respect of tribal agricultural land without undermining or fragmenting the authority of the chief and the community.

Order! No, the noise level is becoming far too high again. The hon the Minister may proceed.

In conclusion, as regards this side of the Committee as well, I should like to express a word of thanks to the hon member for Pretoria Central, who I think touched upon an extremely important matter here. This is the initiative which this Government took and has taken over the years in concentrating the enormous urbanisation, which results from the population explosion, in trust areas or in areas in the self-governing territories on a decentralised basis as far as possible.

More than 2 million people, who would otherwise have exerted additional pressure on metropolitan areas, have already been settled under that decentralised urbanisation process. I assure hon members that it is a very high priority and I thank the hon member for his well-argued support in this regard. The Government will continue with this.

The hon member for Lichtenburg put questions this afternoon to which I replied earlier in the debate. He apparently did not have the opportunity of revising the speech he had initially prepared on the subject. [Interjections.] Nevertheless I am in broad agreement with his points of departure and standpoints. I think it is a responsible standpoint, but I do want to make a few comments.

He emphasised that not only what he termed “White money”, and what I regard as funds of the RSA Government, should be provided for development of Black states and Black communities, but that they should contribute funds too. I specifically pointed out in my speech that they had provided R1,25 billion from their own revenue this year.

I also said, however, that, just like any other inhabitants of this country, they had a right to common sources of revenue which were derived for instance from company tax, mining tax and other taxes, and that it would be unfair simply to leave them with the minimum support from the central Treasury without their really having had a fair chance to develop.

I am in agreement with the hon member’s important emphasis that they be developed toward independence. One of these days the hon member will also see this expressed as my standpoint in the publication Prodder which the HSRC publishes in connection with development matters.

Development aid must be of such a nature that it is ultimately no longer required and can be withdrawn. Development aid must result in the developing community’s becoming increasingly capable of developing itself and we are in full agreement with each other in that regard.

I want to refer to the question which the hon member put on an investigation into irregularities in Botshabelo and I want to assure him that audit and police investigations have been in progress there for quite some time. As a result of this specific officials have already been subjected to disciplinary measures, specific complaints have already been passed on to the Attorney-General and other officials have already been transferred, pending further investigation. I therefore want to assure the hon member that effective and stringent action has been taken in respect of those irregularities—there is no doubt that there were irregularities.

I reacted last night to the speech of the hon firer of blank cartridges from Losberg and I do not think I need return to him.

I want to spend a little more time on the points raised by the hon member for Pietersburg, however. As I have already said, I think the hon member is justified in expecting a report on the control of expenditure in self-governing areas and especially on alleged or apparent irregularities or injudicious expenditure in those areas. Nevertheless I think the hon member will concede that he can hardly expect the Department of Development Aid to exercise continuous internal control in those self-governing areas.

The first point he raised dealt with the Auditor-General’s report on the accounts of the Highveld Development Board in respect of the 1985-86 financial year. Since those development boards were transferred to a department other than that for which I am responsible as long ago as September 1985, I am really unable to reply to that question and I think he is actually applying to the wrong person.

The hon member further referred to the recently completed Mankweng Hospital. He said in passing that the costs of that hospital were pushed up from R30 million to R38 million but I want to point out that the R30 million was initially budgeted for a hospital of 180 beds. The government of Lebowa decided, however, that they would probably receive good value for their money if they immediately completed the initially planned second phase, which would extend the hospital to more than 400 beds, together with the first phase. I think it is remarkable that a hospital planned for 180 beds could be extended to 400 beds at an increase of only R8 million to R38 million.

That hospital has recently been completed and the contractor handed it over formally on 3 May. Over the past few months some repairs, adjustments and finishing work had to be done which, at the architect’s insistence, had to be complied with before the hospital was handed over. The outpatients’ department will come into operation on 1 June this year.

It is true that the drastic restrictions regarding new funds available to the government of Lebowa both this year and last year did not leave the same amount of funds available for the appointment of staff and the commissioning of this hospital as the original joint planning stipulated, but recruitment of staff is in full swing and the intention is to commission the rest of the hospital one section at a time, as funds become available.

The hon member will also be aware of other hospitals, also under the supervision of provincial authorities, which are sometimes entirely and sometimes partially unoccupied for long periods after completion in the sense that there are no funds or staff available.

The other case in connection with hospitals which the hon member spoke about is one in which I must agree with him that it is an extremely unsatisfactory state of affairs. This is the new hospital which is being built in eastern Lebowa as compensation, as it were, to Lebowa for the Douglas Smit Hospital, which initially formed part of Lebowa but which was excised from Lebowa in 1981 because it was donated to Gazankula by clerical bodies which erected it since the users in that immediate vicinity were chiefly Shangaans.

The hon member is perhaps aware that Lebowa was strongly opposed at the time to the excision of this hospital from its area and that success was ultimately achieved in obtaining Lebowa’s consent after the Government undertook in 1981 to provide funds for a complete, alternative hospital. The excision took place in 1981 and negotiations were conducted on the erection of the new hospital. The argument went back and forth for seven years because the department was not in favour of erecting a new hospital right next to the old hospital, which is just across the border in the other territory.

The government of Lebowa was determined, however, that it wanted those people of its area to retain their existing hospital facilities in that vicinity and consent was ultimately given for that hospital to be erected within 4 or 5 km of the old hospital—something which is highly unsatisfactory from the point of view of planning. It is not a matter of poor planning but it is a monument to the reality of interethnic antipathy which we have to take into account in many cases—of the unwillingness of the government of one group to have its people share the same facilities with the population of another group just over the border.

The initial estimate for this hospital was approximately R27 million but, by making use of specific planning expertise from the private sector, it was scaled down to R12 million and negotiations are continuing to limit costs further. Expectations are that the hospital will be completed by August of next year.

The hon member also referred to certain water condensation machines. I agree with him in this case that the purchase of those machines was a very unwise action, to say the least, but, if one thinks back on the misery which the inhabitants of Lebowa experienced in 1983 as a result of prolonged drought, it is perhaps understandable that some of their political decision-makers were influenced by the clever sales talk of the marketers of these machines and then purchased them under the impression that this would be a real solution to the serious water shortage and to the problem that water in unhygienic mud pools also resulted in cholera and enteric fever there. Meanwhile, thanks to good rains and thanks to additional funds which provided Lebowa with emergency water schemes on a proper basis, the use of those machines was actually unnecessary and the expenditure was in fact ineffective.

I find it surprising that, in the period in which I have had to do with this portfolio, this hon member has frequently reverted to these water condensation machines which cost about R800 000 in 1983. Although it is an unsatisfactory, unacceptable and unfortunate matter, it is actually a drop in the ocean in respect of the total funding there.

There are too many drops in that ocean!

I cannot argue with him, however, that it was not an effective and proper expenditure and that it should have been avoided. [Interjections.]

The hon member also referred to the Dekker Report on the Lebowa Development Corporation. We wrote to the late Dr Phatudi within a month of the debate last year and asked him for information on progress as regards points in that report which were raised by the hon member.

He will be aware that, owing to the illness and death of Dr Phatudi, it is understandable that there should have been an interruption. Meanwhile I have been informed that the new Chief Minister, Mr Ramodike, gave the development corporation instructions more than a month ago to furnish him with the necessary information. I therefore hope that, as far as the matter of better supervision of the loans of the undertaking in Pietersburg is concerned—its name escapes me for the moment—I shall be able to report to him.

As regards the question of the development company granting loans to Ministers, Mr Ramodike personally informed me a week ago that he had put a stop to it. He had forbidden it. He instructed his Ministers who had loans to repay them immediately. They have already been repaid and replaced by normal loans from commercial banks which those people have to accept at the normal risks. I think this is a piece of deft, wise and responsible statesmanship on the part of the this new Chief Minister.

I think I have therefore furnished altogether clear and satisfactory replies on all these points to the hon member for Pietersburg. I want to repeat that I appreciate his contribution which, although it was of a critical nature, yet broached points of fundamental importance.

What about the electoral college? [Interjections.]

Order!

The question of the electoral college can be discussed under another Vote. [Interjections.]

How smug!

Mr Chairman, the hon member Prof Olivier also raised a number of matters of interest. I want to thank him for a positive contribution and draw attention briefly to two matters. He requested that the transfer of property rights to land which was already included in the self-governing areas should be expedited. In 1986 property rights to 4,2 million ha of land were transferred. Last year a further phase was concluded. The following phase, which will take place this year, will comprise in the region of 800 000 ha. Consequently this is a matter which we are concluding as rapidly as possible. Nevertheless in the case of some land there are some surveys which have never been done properly and which first have to be done before transfer can take place.

The hon member Prof Olivier also argued for better co-ordinated development in which all spheres of development would be included and in which community development would be especially relevant. This is a principle which we accept fully. In the recent past departmental experts were directly involved in furnishing assistance in connection with interdisciplinary, integrated planning of development in the Mahala and Ritavi regions of Gazankulu for instance and the Mapulaneng and Naphuno regions of Lebowa. In addition, such multifaceted development has been carried out with very great success in Maputoland too, which includes the Makatini Flats, as well as at Botshabelo.

Order! No, there are far too many hon members who are conversing aloud. I shall not allow this to continue. If I identify an hon member’s voice, I shall call him to order by referring to him by his constituency. The hon the Minister may proceed.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Durban Central did apologise for his absence but, like the rest of the hon members of the NDM, he was seldom present during the debate except for the short time in which they made their speeches. I therefore do not know whether I should react to it very seriously. The hon member for Durban Central spoke about the Peelton area. I want to emphasise that historically the Peelton area has formed part of a tribal area for more than a century. That area was divided in two at the time of the independence agreement. The smaller part falls outside Ciskei and it is the conviction of the Government that that tribe should be properly united because, as the hon member so rightly said, the separation of relatives by a boundary fence is unacceptable. That is why a Bill which will soon be discussed in this House will include a motion that the Peelton area as a whole be included in Ciskei, where it belongs ethnically, traditionally and historically.

†The hon member for Johannesburg North referred to the lavish and extravagant way in which the annual report had been published. I should like to point out that by decreasing the number of copies published the total price of the annual report of the Department of Development Aid was exactly the same as the total publishing price of the annual report of the Department of Education and Training. The hon member made a valid point when he said the report only covered the period until February 1987. We are working towards bringing forward the target date for the publication of our report so that it can cover the whole of the previous calendar year.

The hon member tactfully touched upon the point that some seconded officials may not always be suitable for the jobs allocated to them. I want to give him the assurance that very great care is exercised in relation to this matter. The co-operation of the commissioners-general as representatives of the South African Government is obtained.

Special training is taking place but when a slip occasionally does occur we have no difficulty in identifying the problem with the governments concerned and to move the particular person elsewhere.

As far as Botshabelo is concerned, nobody was forced to settle there. Botshabelo is a result of a massive and spontaneous congregation, firstly, of people of the South-Sotho ethnic group out of Thaba Nchu and afterwards virtually from all over the country to that area. High priority is presently being given to spending on the development of infrastructure, and this year, for new infrastructure alone, an amount of R30 million is available.

The hon member for Mooi River has already referred to the good job that the STC is doing in providing job opportunities in that area. In this regard I should just like to point out that at Botshabelo the cost per job opportunity created is among the lowest in the country at R4 400 per job opportunity. To date, the investments made there amount to more than R240 million but we accept the need for further speeding up development in this area.

I should like to subscribe to and associate myself very warmly with the tribute paid by the hon member for Mooi River to a very outstanding leader in South Africa, namely the late Bishop Zulu. I am fully aware of the outstanding contribution he made during his lifetime in terms of both economic and constitutional development.

As far as the area in the Impendle district is concerned, I can give the hon member the assurance that in respect of the natural forest, the training of young Black farmers for settlement and the replanning of that area we are in accord with his views and these things are in the course of being implemented. There is also some well-forested land available there which in relation to the circumstances obtaining in this area can be included in a package to ensure a viable economic basis for individual farmers who also have a grazing farm adjoining that area.

As far as his request with regard to the report of the Advocate-General is concerned, I want to repeat what I stated in a previous debate and that is that this matter is presently being considered by the Standing Committee on Public Accounts and, depending upon what that committee decides, consideration will again be given to this matter at a later stage.

*In conclusion, I once again wish to express my sincere thanks to all hon members for their contributions and especially for the positive spirit in which they made them, as well as for the constructive suggestions which came from various sides of the Committee.

Votes agreed to.

Chairman directed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.

Mr Chairman, I move:

Before I put the question, I want to wish all hon members a pleasant period of rest.

Motion agreed to.

Order! I have to announce on behalf of Mr Speaker that the Constitution Amendment Act was promulgated in Government Gazette No 11295 today.

The effect of this is that as from Monday, 9 May, the Houses will conduct their business according to rules of procedure adopted by them.

Certain items on the Order Papers have already been partially dealt with according to the Standing Orders of the Houses and the Joint Rules and will now be proceeded with in terms of the new Rules, as adapted by this ruling.

In the case of an Appropriation Bill the new Rules provide that the Bill is introduced at the First Reading stage and finally disposed of at the Second Reading stage. The Second Reading stage of the Main Appropriation Bill has already been disposed of in each House in terms of the Joint Rules and its Standing Orders and will for the purposes of the new Rules be regarded as the First Reading stage. Votes already agreed to will be regarded as disposed of. Votes not yet agreed to by the Houses will henceforth be discussed and disposed of in terms of the new rules of procedure.

When the Votes have been disposed of, the Bill will be placed on the Order Paper for Second Reading. The same arrangement will apply to the Appropriation Bills of the House of Assembly, House of Representatives and House of Delegates.

Amendments to Bills appearing on the Order Papers will in terms of Rule 150(4) be recommitted, together with the Bill, to the joint committee concerned, and the approval of the Second Reading of the Bill in terms of the previous rules will for the purposes of the new Rules be deemed to be the conclusion of the debate on the Second Reading. The provisions of Rule 151 will apply to such Bills, ie the consideration of the report of the joint committee and a decision on the Second Reading of the Bill by the Houses.

Other Bills on own affairs of a House the Second Reading of which has already been moved, will be disposed of as though the new Rules have not been adopted, except in so far as the House concerned may by resolution determine otherwise. If the Second Reading has not yet been moved, a memorandum on the objects of the Bill or a copy of the proposed Second Reading speech by the member in charge of the Bill must be supplied to every member of the House concerned.

Mr Chairman, I move without notice:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, as you know, we live in a country of contrasts. While on the one hand we received so much water from above that we could hardly use it all—here I am specifically referring to the flood disaster which devastated the central part of South Africa recently—we find on the other hand that most of this water ran into the sea. This emphasises our dilemma, namely that we sometimes get more than we need at a specific stage and at other times suffer shortages, and that we need the necessary infrastructure—whether in the form of dams or whatever else—to store all the extra water.

*Mr Chairman, I think the hon the Minister will agree with me that we have been watching a strange sight in the Northern Cape and in the Namaqualand area. Kilolitres of water came thundering past only to be lost for mankind.

*This emphasises yet again the enormous task which still awaits us in the country. It is our task to see to it that better research is conducted into our subterranean water sources and that water from these sources is more effectively stored. I think the hon the Deputy Minister of Water Affairs and Land Affairs will agree with me that there is nothing more frustrating than having the best intentions in the world, and planning ahead to improve an area’s socio-economic position, only to find that one cannot satisfy a basic need such as water supply.

†Today I wish to discuss the water needs of the central parts of South Africa. This is where the need is greatest.

*In spite of the fact that two of South Africa’s biggest rivers, namely the Orange and the Vaal Rivers, flow through this region, the major portion of the region is classified as arid. Lack of sufficient water also has a negative effect on development and even on the continued existence of a number of towns in this region.

People are very prone to illusions. They see on TV how the water flows past the towns and then they think there will be no more problems. On the contrary, I think we now have bigger problems than before. The serious water shortages we experience periodically affect all sectors. What we need, amongst other things, is the better distribution and use of surface water flowing through this region. In the process we must realise, however, that South Africa is an arid country and that the determination of priorities for the distribution and the use of water should be carried out on a national level in accordance with the needs.

Then I believe that research to determine the potential of subterranean water sources should be extended. There should also be greater use and control of subterranean water sources. In the past the hon the Deputy Minister of Population Development has indicated here the conditions necessary for South Africa to be self-sufficient as far as water is concerned and what this country’s carrying capacity is. That is precisely why we must make more economic use of our water and do more research to extend our water sources even further.

Let us look for a moment at the area around De Aar. Water shortages, which have developed at De Aar over the years, are retarding the progress of this industrial development point. At present insufficient subterranean water is available for many of the current needs. For various reasons it has often been suggested that Orange River water should be supplied to De Aar. According to recent estimates by an engineering firm—I think in 1985—purified Orange River water could be supplied to De Aar at a unit cost of 119,73 cents per kilolitre, while unit costs in 1990 are estimated at approximately 100,07 cents per kilolitre. According to my information the Department of Water Affairs estimated that the costs would amount to approximately R6 per kilolitre.

There is something I want to ask, Sir. Most of the towns in this region have insufficient water sources. Let us consider whether it would not be possible to make water a priority as well. With the exception of Petrusville, which receives water from the Orange River, and Hopetown, which is situated adjacent to the Orange River, we have problems. Britstown’s whole community, for example, is dependent on subterranean water. Let us consider the adjacent area, the Carnarvon area. We get constant reports from the municipality of Carnarvon, for example, that serious water problems are being experienced. We are also constantly being told—the MP for that area would be able to tell us—that funds are being negotiated to build dams and also to augment bore-holes. The relevant funds are very limited, however.

Water problems are also being experienced in Vanwyksvlei. Once again I want to quote the hon the Deputy Minister of Population Development at this point. He has been to Vanwyksvlei and can inform the Committee on the poverty in that town. It is not economically viable to supply water to this town from the Orange River, however. I accept that. I also believe, however, that subterranean water sources in this region should be investigated further as a matter of priority. One cannot simply tell people to move. Those people traditionally live in those areas and do not want to move.

Let us consider the Gordonia region. In 1984 Kenhardt, for example, asked for approval for water to be made available to them from the Orange River. I can also remind hon members that, in reply to a letter from the House, it was recommended that the Department of Water Affairs should investigate the possibilities inherent in desalination. Now I want to ask: Does the department really think that Kenhardt will be able to tackle such a problem? My contention is that it would be an expensive project for a municipality to undertake. The State will therefore have to step in—if it has not done so already—to help in this connection.

To lay on water from the Orange River would be an expensive project, but then at least one would be assured of sufficient water of good quality. This is what should be emphasised. Further down towards Pofadder—one should actually live there to understand the situation—the quality of the water is very poor. Sometimes people in the Transvaal, in spite of all the industries they have there, do not realise what good quality water they have there. It annoys me when I see how they carry on because they sometimes have to pay a bit more for water. At least they have the use of quality water.

Upington is having problems keeping its water supply constant when the level of the river drops. Subterranean water sources at Pofadder and Kenhardt should be investigated and the storage capacity at Upington should be increased.

Order! I regret that the hon member’s time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to give the hon member an opportunity to complete his speech.

Sir, my colleagues are prodding me to speak about the Free State, but as I have so little knowledge of that area, I shall rather leave it at that. Sometimes I am glad that Kimberley is not part of the Free State.

In the Kuruman/Postmasburg area we are more fortunate because people in those parts do not have as many problems. All indications are that there are large subterranean water reserves in this area, particularly between the Vaalharts and Korhaneberg areas. At Danielskuil, however—my hon colleague will be able to confirm this—we do have a water supply problem, particularly during droughts when the subterranean water table drops to a fairly low level.

As far as my hometown, Kimberley, is concerned, water is obtained from the Vaal River, but unfortunately it is not always the best water. The Kimberley/Hay-area is dependent for most of its water on the Vaal, Riet and Modder Rivers. These people are having problems stabilising the water supply to bigger irrigation areas, however. The adjacent Vryburg area is dependent on subterranean water, and although the present sources are sufficient to supply the town’s short-term needs, I nevertheless want to request that water research be done in the area with a view to planning for the future. I want to repeat that the Government should view research to determine the potential of our subterranean water sources as a matter of priority. It is essential for better control over our subterranean water sources to be exercised and also for these sources to be better utilised.

Mr Chairman, since there appears to be only one hon member who is going to speak about water, I should like to reply at this stage because I have to discuss another Vote in another House.

In the course of my speech I shall touch upon most of the points made by the hon member for Diamant. I merely want to say that on a few points I agree with him wholeheartedly. As far as water-supply planning is concerned we in this country are often inclined to do nothing about the matter while there is a plentiful supply of water. As soon as droughts set in, however, we suddenly see the shortcomings in our water-supply system and then we attempt to take ad hoc action.

The hon member is right when he says we must plan our water supply during periods when water is plentiful in South Africa. He is also right in saying that we should look to the proper distribution and utilisation of our water.

The hon member also raised a point about the use of our subterranean water. We hope that after the rains which have now fallen over large parts of the country, our subterranean water supply will have been properly augmented. We must regard subterranean water as a very precious commodity in this country. In spite of the fact that there is a great deal of subterranean water, we must attempt to preserve it as much as possible so that we can utilise that water to supplement our surface resources in crisis periods. On the other hand, however, we also have large subterranean water-supply areas, for example in the Transvaal, in regard to which we specifically amended the Act last year so that we could abstract that water for use in the national interest.

In the course of my speech I should like to say a few things about the water supply in the central areas of our country. Supplying water to local authorities is generally not the function of the Department of Water Affairs. In point of fact, local authorities themselves are responsible for supplying water to the inhabitants. The Department of Water Affairs’ function in this regard is to supply water in bulk. In effect the department therefore has little if anything to do with the planning and construction of water-supply works for local authorities. The Department of Water Affairs is prepared, however—and it does so—to grant subsidies for water-supply schemes in certain cases, and in the past few years for sewerage purification works too. The main aim of these subsidies is not to decrease the unit costs of water, but rather to ensure the efficient utilisation of water in the first place and, secondly, to ensure that structures are of a high quality. Local authorities graded from one to seven qualify for these subsidies. They must take note of the fact that these subsidies can only be paid if a scheme has been evaluated and approved in advance.

I want to come back to what the hon member said. When I say that we are not actually responsible for water supply to local authorities, I want to add that we have already created mechanisms to make provision for the allocation of subsidies in the event of local authorities, which wish to construct new schemes in the future, exceeding the tariff of R1,00 per cubic metre.

Sir, that is not our only problem, of course. We are also involved in existing schemes when local authorities find it difficult to collect levies from consumers. As I have said, the Department of Water Affairs is not responsible for individual schemes. It only undertakes regional State water-supply schemes—in other words, schemes in which more than one local authority is involved—except where we have growth points and can prove that it is in the national interest for water to be supplied to them.

I now simply want to make a few general remarks about water supply in the interior. I want to refer specifically to De Aar, to which the hon member referred. De Aar has, of course, been designated a growth point. There is also a subterranean water source. Hon members must realise, however, that in these towns it is not a question of supplying water from the Orange River. What is involved is the affordability of the schemes. It is as easy for us to supply water to De Aar from the Orange River as it is to supply water to any other town. What is involved, however, is the affordability of the scheme.

We have just made De Aar an offer, and this was because there were doubts about the subterranean sources and because the municipality had a problem in supplying sufficient water from the subterranean sources. That is why the Department of Water Affairs has now offered to develop these subterranean water sources along a line to the P K le Roux dam so that if these subterranean sources proved to be inadequate, we would already be en route to linking up with the Orange River.

I want to repeat what I said previously in this House, and that is that the State will have to reinvestigate rural towns which are in danger of becoming depopulated as a result of a lack of water, or because water which is supplied to those towns is too expensive for the inhabitants. For that reason another committee, a Cabinet committee, has been established to investigate water supplies to those towns in which the inhabitants are not able to pay their rates.

Mention was made a moment ago of irrigation development. As far as that matter is concerned, our Constitution provides that irrigation development by specific groups is an own affair, and for that reason those specific groups can develop State water schemes, or they can develop irrigation boards, this being an own affair. In regard to irrigation development by the House of Representatives, let me just say that we are already conducting in-depth investigations into irrigation development for Coloured farmers. I want to reiterate that we are already engaged in the establishment of the Neus-Augrabies scheme. Unfortunately the floods prevented us from proceeding with the improvement of these structures which are part of the new development in the Neus-Augrabies area. We have already done the spadework and have budgeted for the development of the Neus-Augrabies project. We should like more irrigation land to be made available to Coloured farmers so that we could establish an economically viable farming enterprise for our Coloured farmers. We do not merely talk about this; at Neus-Augrabies we are doing something about it. An irrigation district could also be the solution, with a possible water-supply scheme for agricultural purposes serving more than one population group. As hon members probably know, the Haarlem irrigation district was recently instituted in the Eastern Cape, and as far as I know the board has already held its first meeting. The establishment of this board had to be dealt with by the Department of Water Affairs as a general affair because in this case both the Coloured and White farmers were involved. I trust that this proposed scheme will prove to be a good example of co-operation between the various population groups.

I merely want to refer briefly to the floods once again. As a result of the floods in February and March, a tremendous amount of water flowed away to the sea, and this is a point I concede to the hon member. At Upington the run-off was 14 000 million cubic metres, which is more than the average run-off of the Vaal River and the Orange River and is equal to twice the volume of the Hendrik Verwoerd dam. We could therefore have filled two Hendrik Verwoerd dams from the flood-water run-off in February and March. If one takes into account that the total storage capacity of the four major dams in the Orange River and the Vaal River is 12 700 million cubic metres, one involuntarily asks oneself why more dams cannot be built so that this water can be stored. The problem, of course, lies in the fact that this massive run-off was caused by heavy rains which are estimated to occur only about once in 50 years. As a result there cannot be any question of useful storage. When we think about constructing dams, we must think about constructing a multipurpose dam. Firstly we could not build a dam which would hold up against floods of this magnitude. When the floods occurred in the Orange River area, our major dams there were the Kalkfontein Dam and the Bloemhof Dam. The Bloemhof Dam was less than 40% full and the Kalkfontein Dam was 4% full. In spite of the fact that these dams were virtually empty, they really could not handle a flood of this magnitude.

There is no doubt that dams have a dissipating effect on flood waters, allowing one a certain degree of control.

When we hold a postmortem on the floods we shall again give thorough consideration to these aspects. Our present problem is that certain people have to cough up for any structure which is erected, and we shall have to be in a position to prove that we are erecting a structure which is in the national interest so that the capital costs do not devolve directly upon those using that water-supply system.

If we really want to control water effectively we must have sound lines of communication, and experience has taught us that when such floods occur, our normal lines of communication are usually out of order or cannot be used. In the recent floods we were able to make good use of the Meteor Pulse Data Transmission Unit which is a very sophisticated system, because we had sound lines of communication to monitor the flood and give timely flood warnings to our people.

I should like to conclude by expressing my sympathy on this occasion to the Coloured farmers who suffered heavy losses in the floods. We also want to express the hope that the aid schemes which have been made available to them, and will be made available to them, will make it possible for them to get back into production as quickly as possible. I also want to extend a friendly invitation to hon members to make use of the information at our disposal, since we have structures and knowledge relating to flood aid which could help to get Coloured farmers back into production as quickly as possible.

Mr Chairman, I request the privilege of the half-hour. On behalf of hon members of my standing committee, this House—including the opposition—and myself, I should like to thank Mrs Tersia Burnett for the beautiful corsages we received today. We also wish to congratulate the Kirstenbosch Botanical Gardens on their 75th birthday. Looking at this corsage, I am reminded that the last time I wore something like this was on my wedding day nearly 30 years ago. That was a happy day in my life and I hope today will be just as happy. [Interjections.]

†Mr Chairman, may I compliment the hon the Minister for calling an extraordinary meeting of the Council for the Environment to formulate proposals for a new Environment Act—an Act, I believe, which is long overdue.

I believe the earth, its coastline, its mountains and everything natural in it, represents the environment, and I believe it is a definite lack of environmental education, coupled with man’s insensitivity towards his environment, that will eventually destroy those irreplaceable natural areas with their resources and research and educational potential for the future generation.

The Department of Environment Affairs launched the South African Natural Heritage Programme in November 1984. As described in the department’s annual report for 1986-87, it presents the opportunity for individuals to participate actively in the protection of the rapidly disappearing natural areas. Unfortunately not too many members of our community would be able to participate because of financial considerations, but I urge all those landowners who are able to participate, to do so. The longer we are able to protect any part of the environment, the less threatened it becomes.

Let me just illustrate how concerned the international community is about the environment and its natural resources. A request was recently made by the General Assembly of the United Nations to the World Commission on Environment and Development to investigate a global agenda for change. Contributions were made by 21 member countries, including South Africa. In its final report, called Our Common Future the commission says, and I quote:

This report proves how important it is for South Africa to practise nature and environmental conservation fastidiously. I would go even further and recommend that legislation be updated to make sure that nature areas privately owned and where natural resources are threatened by development be protected as envisaged in the document Planning for Nature Areas.

It is pleasing to note the work done in the field of environmental education and training regarding the identification of environmental impact.

Order! I want to ask the hon members on my right to give the hon member for Retreat a fair hearing while he is addressing the House. The hon member may proceed.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. May I request the department and the hon the Minister to monitor public resorts very closely for it is in this kind of place that certain people who have scant regard and very little consideration for fellow humans usually do most damage. It is also very important to monitor all aspects of the Mossel Bay gas project for, once again, a multimillion rand project of this nature brings all types of people together and we know from experience that for too many of them it is purely a financial necessity with environmental conservation and pollution the farthest from their minds.

With the devolution of executive functions to provincial governments not enough was done, I believe, to monitor the effect on the environment at the missile site at De Hoop. It was the understanding that conservation officials would have permanent access to the De Hoop missile testing range that prompted the Hey Commission to give its approval to the project in 1983.

For the past two years the Council for the Environment—this I read in The Cape Times of 7 March 1988—has reported itself unable to find out whether the range was being developed in accordance with the Hey Report. I believe we should take that responsibility upon us and return to the agreement.

As a born and bred Capetonian, proud of our beautiful beaches and especially of our historical Table Mountain range, I was very upset about the circumstances surrounding the fire at Simon’s Town on Monday. As The Argus so aptly describes it: “Fire Disaster: A devastated wasteland from mountain tip to sea”. I should like to convey my sympathy to all the people who lost their homes and all their possessions in the worst fire in the area in the last 27 years. Thank God no lives were lost! The Navy, the RSC, the Cape Point Nature Reserve rangers, Simon’s Town’s municipality and all those volunteers who helped to fight the fire should be complimented on a heroic effort.

The Cape fynbos is seen as one of South Africa’s most valuable natural heritages. It is a unique plant kingdom in which more than 6 000 plant species exist. In this fire 1 800 ha of fynbos was devastated. This was the eleventh major fire—and there have been numerous smaller ones as well—in the last ten years in the Cape Peninsula and surrounding areas, claiming 11 lives and destroying thousands of hectares of the indigenous fynbos of the Western Cape.

Mr Chairman, a third of the Cape Point Nature Reserve was destroyed in February last year, and in December Table Mountain blazed on three fronts. This caused an ecological disaster. I wish to make a sincere appeal to the hon the Minister and his department to visit the fire-ravaged area so that they can witness the devastation that took place. May I request the hon the Minister, after he has seen this, to give serious consideration to the institution of a fire control committee, especially for the Cape Peninsula. This committee could perhaps be instituted along the same lines as the fire control committees established in terms of the Forest Act, Act No 122 of 1984.

If it were not for the presence of the Navy and their mobile water-tankers, the devastation could have been far more serious. Simon’s Town, Smitswinkelbaai and the Cape Point Nature Reserve are among the most beautiful places in South Africa—if not the world. I believe the hon the Minister, his department and the Environmental Council should do everything in their power to clear up the more visible parts of the area before the summer season. Every day more and more citizens express their concern for the garbage that is being thrown out of car and train windows. Beer bottles and other garbage are left lying around at picnic spots. This we find especially on our beaches where people have scant regard for other people’s recreational needs. It is a shame that man, who is supposed to be the more civilised of the living species, can systematically go about destroying what should be dear to him and left as a legacy for the future generations.

Besides the cost involved in constantly clearing up the mess, man-hours that could have been used to enhance the environment productively are being wasted. Sir, I believe that people who fitter have an irresponsible attitude towards their community and towards themselves. I also believe that education at grassroots level will eventually be the answer. As David Ballamy said:

Sir, it is imperative that every South African be made aware of the disaster that could overtake us by the turn of the century for by then our population will have grown to approximately 47 million people. Every effort must be made by the department, the private sector and Joe Citizen to assist the “Keep South Africa clean” organization, which is doing a tremendous job. With more and more people becoming urbanised, the built-up areas must also be monitored very closely.

Mr Chairman, I would now like to move on to forestry. On 20 August 1987 the Second Reading of the Forest Amendment Bill took place in this House. In order to refresh the memories of hon members, I may mention that the Bill made provision for the granting of State loans to individual landowners for the planting of trees to produce timber for commercial and industrial purposes after the Cabinet had decided that an incentive scheme should be introduced to encourage the private sector, and included R800 000 in the Budget for that purpose.

Hon members will also remember that Clause 2 contained a new section, section 9(a) of the Forestry Act, Act No 122 of 1984, which allowed the Director-General of Environment Affairs to appoint a committee consisting of three officers from the department, of which one would be chairman, and three members from the Forestry Council. We were quite happy with this amendment and agreed to the question. In thanking me for supporting the Bill, the hon the Minister said the following, and I quote from Hansard: House of Representatives, 20 August 1987, cols 2315-6:

What Father Christmas said that?

Peter, if you want to make a speech, ask to be allowed to make one.

Order!

Let him ask Father Christmas. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Retreat may proceed.

I shall repeat part of the quotation, Sir. It reads:

I am mentioning this, Sir, because of the report in The Sunday Times of 10 April 1988. I want to read excerpts from this article. The headline reads: “Boom time as timber ousts cane”. The article goes on to read:

The writer goes further and says:

The writer then goes on to say what sort of capital that generates. I quote further:

Then he goes on to say:

On the very next page there is an article headed:

To me both these reports are a bit of an anomaly.

We passed that Bill and the Cabinet decided on it because we all agreed that the smaller man had to be protected. With certain price collusions going on—as is stated in the report—it is the smaller man that will eventually be moved out of the industry, because he cannot compete with big companies like Shell, Mondi, Sappi and those people when it comes to the production of timber. These companies have the capital and they can actually afford to wait for a couple of years. What bothers me is the fact that the State gave R800 000 last year, and I believe the pool now stands at R2,4 million. If that position is not very closely monitored and those farmers go under, eventually the taxpayer will have to carry the burden again. I have always believed that there is a place for the small businessman in this country, be it in timber or any other business. The hon the Minister must see to it that the small businessman does not go under because of takeovers or monopolies by these big companies. Eventually they will succeed in working the small man out and that means an increase in the cost of timber. Timber is used for pulp, as well as in building materials and various other commodities and a monopoly in this industry will only push up the cost of living.

I also want to ask the hon the Minister how many private growers have State loans, what he is doing about the protection of these private growers, and what he and the hon the Minister of Economic Affairs and Technology are doing about the sugar industry. Both these Government departments utilise taxpayers’ money and that money must be safeguarded. After all, the hon the Minister felt at the time that the small timber producer should be protected. Does he still feel the same, because once we have a monopoly, it will not do anybody any good.

In this debate during August last year, the hon the Minister of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture in the House of Representatives requested a meeting with this hon Minister to sort out certain problems regarding the proclamation of Bokram Village near Ocean View for housing. Our people were moved out of Simon’s Town under the Group Areas Act and dumped in Ocean View and surrounding areas. In this regard the hon the Minister said, and I quote from his speech (Hansard: House of Representatives, 28 July 1987, col 1529):

I was very disappointed when speaking to the department this morning to hear that that piece of land still falls under the control of the Department of Environment Affairs. I believe that, because of the shortage of housing and because of the circumstances under which some of those people are living, some finality should be reached as soon as possible.

According to promises made by the hon the Minister regarding the sorting out of the 82 ton crayfish quota to 410 fishermen on the West Coast, I believe this matter has still not been settled in a satisfactory manner. My hon colleagues will further expound on this matter, but I nevertheless want to request an urgent meeting with the hon the Minister to discuss this and other related fishing matters.

Mr Chairman, firstly I want to thank Mrs Tersia Burnett for the beautiful flowers she sent us on behalf of the hon the Minister of Environment Affairs and of Water Affairs. I also want to thank Messrs Visagie and Herbst and Dr Serfontein for their assistance. In the past their doors have always been open to me when I have had some or other problem. They have always been prepared to help me. I also want to thank the hon the Minister for the boat tour we were able to undertake. It was very enjoyable, and we look forward to the next one.

I want to concentrate on problems in the fishing industry in my constituency. Firstly I want to say that my fishermen have never had any confidence in the hon the Minister’s department. However, on the strength of the Sea Fisheries Bill which was passed this year and which I explained to them, let me tell the hon the Minister that the fishermen have asked me to convey their thanks to him.

With that Bill the hon the Minister has given people a good deal of hope, but I am somewhat disappointed. I am going to quote a letter which the hon the Minister sent to me. Then I want to elaborate on it for a moment. It reads as follows:

I am talking about the “Jolly Fisher MBA 19A” which was sold by Mr H J Groenewald—

Now I also want to quote to hon members a Press statement the then Minister made:

1. (a) Soos onlangs besluit is ten opsigte van kwota-oordragte in die lig van die Diemont-kommissie-aanbeveling, sal tjokkalisensies ook nie, behalwe in uitsonderlike omstandighede, binne die eerste drie jaar oorgedra of verkoop kan word nie.

Sir, I should like to confine myself to the “exceptional circumstances” to which reference was made. The hon the Minister is aware of the fact that the Jolly Fisher belonged to a White man, Mr Groenewald. Since Mr Groenewald could no longer engage in fishing operations owing to his health, he sold the boat to these four Coloured fishermen. I now want to ask the hon the Minister whether he would not please review the case and allow those people to catch chokka once again. There is no additional utilisation of the source involved. If Mr Groenewald had kept the boat, he would still have had the right to catch the chokka. Why can the Coloured fishermen, who paid so much money for the boat, not simply continue to catch chokka?

It is still the same source that is being utilised. I want to ask the hon the Minister to review that matter. The Sea Fisheries Amendment Bill created certain expectations in these fishermen. We must not disappoint them. The hon the Minister must not begrudge them their licences.

I also want to refer to problems experienced by the commercial fishermen in my constituency. There are more than 500 of them in my constituency. During the summer season when the people are fishing, use is made of ski boats, something which gives rise to major problems. These ski boats are fast, and as far as yellowtail, Cape salmon and kabeljou are concerned, no limits are placed on their catches. It is specifically these kinds of fish which are caught in the summer months. The ski boats are faster, and year after year there are approximately 300 to 400 of them at Struisbaai for a period of six months. They then sell their catches at much lower prices than the fishermen do, and when the fishermen want to sell their catches, the price is very low. As a result the fishermen at Struisbaai are struggling to make a living. I want to invite the hon the Minister to come and have a look at what goes on at Struisbaai in the summer months, from October to January.

There is a problem I have discussed with the hon the Minister’s committee in the past, a problem relating to a representative on the line fish committee. In 1985 the hon the Minister’s department asked to be supplied with a list of the names of all the fishermen and also decided to nominate someone from the Verdrivus Fishing Association to serve on the line fish committee. I submitted these names in 1985, but to date we have not had any reply. Our view was that if someone represented the fishermen on the line fish committee, he could address those problems and negotiate with the department about their problems. I want to ask the hon the Minister to designate someone from this fishing association to serve on the line fish committee.

I had a further problem which involved the sale of fish to the various co-operatives. The hon the Minister’s department then recommended the establishment of a co-operative. We did that, but now we have another problem. We cannot get land from the Divisional Council for the construction of a storehouse. The hon the Minister’s department has a great deal of land at Struisbaai, and I want to ask the hon the Minister whether he cannot relinquish a portion of that land so that we can erect a storehouse which will enable us to negotiate better prices. The factories force the fishermen to charge certain prices, because they know that the fishermen cannot sell their fish to anyone but Irvin and Johnson, Sea Harvest or Snoekies. These companies have storehouses at thier disposal. I therefore want to ask the hon the Minister whether he cannot make premises available to us so that we can also build a storehouse for the storage of that fish.

Order! I regret to have to interrupt the hon member, but his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I merely rise to afford the hon member an opportunity to complete his speech.

I thank the hon the Chief Whip. I also want to speak about the development of the harbour at Struisbaai. The department held a meeting with the fishermen of Struisbaai at which it was resolved to designate a member of the ratepayers’ association and one from the fishing association to serve on this committee which would conduct discussions about the development of the harbour.

What is strange, however, is that the department is engaged in the development, but the fishermen are not being consulted. They come and ask me what is going on. On the one hand the department promised that they could be represented on the committee for the development of the harbour, but on the other hand it is developing the harbour without consulting them. [Interjections.] The hon member says it cannot be true, but I have it here in black and white.

I trust that I have now made all my representations to the hon the Minister. I only prepared a 10-minute speech and was only given 10 minutes, but there are still so many problems in my constituency as far as the fishing industry is concerned that I want to appeal to the hon the Minister. The Minister at that time promised the fishermen that he would visit Struisbaai, and that we would hold a joint meeting with the boat owners and the fishing association. That never materialised, however, and I want to ask the hon the Minister please to visit the area so that the fishermen can convey their problem to him in person.

There is one further problem I want to raise with the hon the Minister. One of the White fishermen has two boats with the same number. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether this is permissible. Does a boat owner with a licence have the right to run two boats on that licence? [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I request the privilege of the half-hour. I want to thank the hon the Minister and his department for the enlightening tour on the SA Agulhas. We sincerely appreciated this. I merely want to mention that our directionless opposition promised to talk in the debate about what we saw at the weather bureau, but it seems to me the predictions were stormy.

I have no choice but to sound like an old gramophone record which plays the same tune over and over. I again want to touch on certain aspects, specifically the plight of the fishermen of the West Coast. I do not like to harp on the same matters. I am convinced that I will not have to complain again next year and need only say good things, as was the case in the past. I want the hon the Minister to view what I am going to say as constructive criticism and to take it seriously.

In the first place I want to express my disappointment at the decision of the hon the Minister in that he is totally subverting or violating the findings of the Diemont Commission, which cost millions of rand and took a long time. Worst of all is that the Cabinet accepted 90% of the recommendations. To take an example, I should like to talk about the rock lobster quota of 82 tons which was given to the longest serving 410 rock lobster fishermen in 1986-87. Each of them were to get 200 kg. In 1986-87 the Sea Fisheries Advisory Council proposed that the total quota be reduced by 139 ton, of which the industry’s quota represented 89 ton. In spite of these proposals the hon the Minister replaced the 82 ton and said he would compensate all active rock lobster fishermen by R700 000 for an unspecified period at the end of the season. This will be on a pro rata basis depending on each participant’s catch. My information is that the position has changed and that the longest serving fishermen are losing out because of the reduction in their quotas.

The result is that every fisherman, whether he caught white fish, pelagic fish, rock lobster or whatever during the 1987-88 season is now being financially compensated. The long-term rock lobster fisherman is being driven out.

There are reports that traffic officers, mechanics, factory workers etc, take their annual holiday to catch rock lobster. Now they are also coming into consideration for this bonus of 18,5 cents per kg. It is being said openly that this new decision is also benefiting the owners of rock lobster boats and pelagic boats who earn more than R50 000 per annum. Now I ask myself why the rock lobster fisherman who is going to get very little out of the new dispensation and who has done so much for everyone along the West Coast and who, in spite of setbacks, has devoted his entire life to this, is being treated in this way.

The former Minister at least tried to protect these people by giving them the small quota so that they could maintain their standard of living. More than 20 years ago that former Minister—at that stage he was still in the Opposition—requested that this dream which these people had had for so long should become a reality.

My argument also is that these bona fide rock lobster fishermen should get their rightful share and that the exploitation by full-time workers who are simply out for financial gain must be eliminated. I want to suggest that the quotas be given back to the people. However, this must be done on a community basis; in other words, Elands Bay must get a certain number of ton, Doring Bay a certain number, Paternoster a certain number and so on. This will work better than the previous system did. If the hon the Minister feels that paper quotas must work, he must implement this without exception. He might as well start with Sanlam and Orange River Fisheries. Another question is why Kalk Bay has been deprived of its quota. This quota was given to the line-fisherman of Kalk Bay, very few of whom catch rock lobster. Traditionally these people have never caught rock lobster.

Only eaten it.

If we compare the fishermen of Kalk Bay with the fishermen of the West Coast it is obvious that over the years they have maintained a high standard of living. This can be ascribed in particular to the fact that they can catch line-fish along the False Bay coast throughout the year. This hon Minister and his senior officials have said on more than two occasions that the 410 people were to have been paid out early last year. As far as I know the people have not received a single cent yet. We as representatives are in a difficult position because the people come to us. I cannot and am no longer prepared to accept responsibility for problems caused by the hon the Minister and his department. The hon the Minister and his officials are White and therefore do not care about my people. Consequently it is the duty of this House to make ourselves heard and for that reason I am glad that the hon member for Border agrees with me.

Yes, I agree.

Sir, our people cannot continue living in these appalling conditions. I always wonder why there is so much smuggling in rock lobster and other species of marine life. Many of these people’s livelihoods depend on the sea. I almost want to go so far as to say that they are forced to break the law because they do not get the necessary assistance from the Government. I want to quote from yesterday’s edition of Die Burger:

Now we ask why this is the case. I want to tell hon members how many people in the various West Coast towns have been prosecuted. In Lamberts Bay 59, in Hout Bay 34, in Saldanha 13, in Elands Bay 9, in Laaiplek 9, and I can carry on in this vein. These people do not even have money to pay their rent and they catch rock lobster out of necessity. I can assure the hon the Minister that the fishermen would very much like to protect the marine resources. However, then the hon the Minister and his department must look after them. The people want to be proud and law-abiding citizens. They will be too, but then they must be given a share and a say. Give them what is their due.

There are and have been many applications for quotas for line-fish, white fish, pelagic fish, rock lobster, etc from our communities. I know that in virtually all cases throughout the country, explanations and reasons are given as to why our people’s applications are turned down. I have copies of many such cases and should like to read out some of the reasons given to the House. They read:

It is therefore not surprising that the quota holder whose quotas have been reduced in the past is exerting strong pressure for no new entrants to be admitted to the industry before their quotas have been increased to a satisfactory level. I want to associate myself with what is said here.

What about the Taiwanese and the Spaniards?

The hon member is quite right.

Another reply reads as follows:

Sir, I find this unacceptable for the following reasons. In 1986 white fish quotas were given to Fernpar. The quota was increased by 43% which is equivalent to 400 ton. An increased quota of 4% was given to other deep-sea fishing companies. Fempar is part of the Lusitania Group belonging to Mr Guston Fernandes. This person sold most of his quota to Marine Products in 1980. He retained 450 ton which was reduced to 345 ton in 1983. Sir, would you believe the very next year his quota was increased by more than 1 000 ton and is now 1 500 ton. How does one explain this? This information comes from the Fishing Industry Review of February 1986. This makes one wonder what criteria apply when quotas are allocated. I wonder what the definition of politics is, because they say politics does not come into this.

I have copies of cuttings from magazines which prove that maasbanker and white fish quotas were given to six new applicants in 1987. Is this not contradictory when one takes into consideration that the department said in 1984 that pressure had been exerted on them not to allocate quotas to new entrants? Our people applied for a line-fish quota at that stage. This was also refused. However, quotas were again allocated to six new entrants. I feel the time has come to change this one-sided way in which matters are being handled.

We have tried every possible channel. I nevertheless believe that holders of historically established quotas must be protected and that they are entitled to remain in the industry, but they must also make place for new entrants of colour. However, when it comes to sharing wealth in this country, they shy away and they do not want to give the other component their share. When it comes to dwellings and schools, the Government says: “You have your own.” Today I want to ask the hon the Minister sincerely and politely to invite us to discuss this matter openly so that we can make progress.

You must have a cup of tea together.

Yes, I want to have tea with the hon the Minister. [Interjections.]

Sir, I want to discuss the pelagic fish industry. In a previous debate I did says that if the Weskus Pelagiese Vissersvereniging did not manage matters properly, the hon the Minister should intervene. What I meant was that the hon the Minister should not take the quota away and give it to the big companies. The fishermen feel they want a share in the industry. I am therefore asking the hon the Minister to give the quota back to the fishermen and to lay down guidelines on how these quotas should be handled.

As regards the disbursement of catches, there is still dissatisfaction. There are no fixed dates and it is also alleged that one boat’s crew gets more than the others. I would appreciate it if the department would sort out this matter with the industry.

Another matter which is worrying me is that the crews on the boats are paid off for no reason. I shall return to this later. My information is that if Mr A is prepared to work for half the price, Mr B, who works for the full price, is paid off. [Interjections.] In addition Whites, who went to work elsewhere when the industry experienced a recession, are welcomed back into the industry with open arms. The poor Coloured person, who cannot find greener pastures elsewhere, is simply bade a fond farewell. Now I want to ask Sir: What reconciliation are we talking about?

We must admit that owing to these facts the fishing industries on the West Coast towns up to Walvis Bay are so closely interwoven that virtually every aspect of the towns’ pattern of life has a ripple effect on the fishermen—in virtually every household! The effect is felt to a greater extent in institutions like the school and the church and in the cultural sphere. The fathers or brothers are fishermen, and the survival of the family is supposed to be guaranteed by the income of the son. In the lean years these people, who now have “sites” on the boat, did not see their way clear to carry on doing a poor man’s work and sought work elsewhere. These Coloured fishermen who do not have a “site” stayed and worked and paid their meagre incomes into the coffers of the municipalities—the shops and the bars. The others left. Houses stood empty. Now they have come back, however, because the fish are back and the big money is back. I want to know whether it is a question of revenge or delight in another’s misfortunes. Why did they not put my people off the boats when things were bad?

Today I want to tell the hon the Minister as well as the skippers and the factory owners: You who are in control of the source of income have an important part to play in the establishment of sound relations in our country. This is a great responsibility, but it must be a proud and precious responsibility.

I know it is not asking too much. The hon the Minister is a responsible man and should definitely deem the welfare of a family more important than the attitude of an individual. In this regard I should like to quote an excerpt from Die Republikein of 21 February 1988:

I want to continue quoting from the same newspaper under the caption “Vissers bly maar stil”:

Die afgedankte vissers van Naraville was die afgelope week bang om te praat, want hulle vrees dat hulle nooit weer op Walvisbaai sal werk kry nie.

In the same connection I also want to quote from Die Republikein of 29 February 1988:

I should like to know what is going to become of the membership fees those fishermen paid in over the years. At this stage I want to thank Mr Basil Cupido, a member of the President’s Council, and Mr Carter Ebrahim very much for solving the problems to a certain extent, otherwise there would definitely have been big trouble. We are being accused of turning this into a political matter, of inciting people and being radicals. However, that is not true. It is exactly the opposite. I have lists here containing the names of people who lost their jobs and the reasons which were given. We have lists of names of people from the West Coast who were put off boats, their years of experience, which boats they worked on, as well as the reason for their being paid off. I want to mention one such example where the fisherman said that he had only worked on a boat for three days in the 1988 season before he was paid off because the skipper had appointed his own brother. I do not want to elaborate on this matter as I have already said enough.

I want to suggest that a commission of inquiry be appointed to investigate the matter.

Our people must serve on that commission.

Of course our people must serve on such a commission. The question of employment and remuneration must be investigated, so that legislation can be piloted through Parliament to protect employees as well as employers.

Mr Chairman, it is an honour for me to speak after the hon member for Wuppertal today. In my opinion he highlighted the crux of the problem here and put the can of worms on the table. If a man has a quota, he can catch fish; otherwise he can do nothing. [Interjections.]

The West Coast community are totally dependent on the fishing industry. One would like that community to be treated with a certain amount of respect and compassion. Sir, developments were planned for the West Coast area. However, this never materialised. It is not the fault of the people of the West Coast that the Government’s development projects failed.

I want to thank the hon the Minister for what is being done in the fishing industry to protect the resources. It is not that we want to destroy the resources, but we were elected by a community which depends on the fishing industry. We must put their case here in Parliament. Conditions were laid down with regard to political, social and economic development. However, the trouble is that we have no political power in this House when it comes to the allocation of quotas. The hon the Minister and I share a constituency. We have a good relationship. The only difference is that the hon the Minister can allocate quotas to his voters, whereas I cannot. That is why I have problems in my constituency. Sir, it would seem as if political considerations are playing a role when quotas are allocated. That is our problem in the fishing industry.

Take as an example the large-scale investigation of the Diemont Commission, which was appointed to investigate the problems. Guidelines were laid down in the White Paper which was published. However, the Diemont Commission could just as well have stayed at home, because the Government’s White Paper no longer applies.

Sir, it is not that we are frustrated; we merely want to put matters right. We simply want people to be afforded the opportunity of equal development. The hon the Minister knows that I appealed for the retention of the 82 ton quota. In many respects people who had nothing in life got something out of this. However, that same year the quota was abolished.

I want to say something about the community of Paternoster. Whenever I get a chance I talk about Paternoster. They even approached the Ministers’ Council to take up their case. However, all the Ministers’ Council could do was to hear their case, because they were not able to give assistance.

When the Government talks about reform, it must go all the way. The half-hearted reform which is taking place with a view to the new South Africa is not going to succeed. The real problems must be addressed. We cannot be partners in the field of political reform and then be left out when it comes to economic reform. This is what is happening in the fishing industry and we can no longer tolerate it. We have discussed the matter on many occasions. We explained this inter alia to the Diemont Commission.

We now feel that the time has come for us to put our cards on the table. [Interjections.] I hope that the hon the Minister and I will still have a good relationship in the constituency. I am not only talking about my people; I am also talking about the pelagic community. Some of those people are the hon the Minister’s voters too. Sir, we are forcing those fishermen to establish a trade union, and I will support them if they want to do so, because this is the only way in which we can get at the monsters in the fishing industry.

I want to know whether the hon the Minister is aware that some of the private boat owners do not even have medical cover for their people. Some of those private boat owners do not care what happens to people who get hurt. There is no insurance for them. If those people die at sea there is no insurance cover for loss of life. This is the kind of problem we have to combat in the fishing industry.

Look at the fishing quota for example. I speak under correction, but I think that a country like Spain has fishing quotas in South Africa. What has Spain decided now? Our sportsmen may not even participate there. How do matters stand with our overseas partners? I want to request that we sit down round a table and that the MPs talk to representatives from the fishing industry. Another culture applies in the fishing industry. The people on the boats do not have the courage to talk. If they talk they are told: “Take your things and go”. [Interjections.] There are no other employment opportunities for them. [Interjections.] They cannot complain. They cannot go to the owner of the factory, because he says that the skipper is in control of the boat. [Interjections.]

Get out of my house!

Yes, he says: “Get out of my house!” What happened at Paternoster? On Monday I am going to give evidence in court on behalf of people who are appearing on a charge of having caught rock lobster illegally. I am going to plead for mitigating circumstances for those people. They are being forced to destroy the resource. The man does not have a house. If he is ordered to go out and catch rock lobster the next day he must do so. He does not have a house. He has no choice, because he has a wife and children. He has to obey that instruction, and ifhedoesnot do so, he is told to go. Quite often over week-ends, holidays and Christmas holidays I have driven up there to plead the cause of those people. I feel we must give those people an economic interest in the matter first and then we can expect them to help to protect the resource. Those people must work, and therefore they cannot protect the resource.

According to Paternoster Fisheries a rock lobster fisherman earns R1,33 per kilogram, which has to be divided among five members. I should like to quote from a letter from that committee:

The people can only catch rock lobster for three weeks per year. How much can one earn in that short period? They are battling, and in a letter from the community it is stated:

However, to date nothing has happened. The community wanted to establish a co-operative in order to help themselves. They are making monthly contributions from their meagre incomes and R18 000 has been collected so far. Discussions were held with the SBDC, and they undertook to grant a loan. However, land is not yet available for own business premises, and there is no product which can be caught and processed either.

Another matter is that Whites are getting a pelagic quota. Take as an example the promise which was made that a factory would be built at Paternoster, but where is the pelagic quota or the factory? Where is the factory which was to be built at Boegoeberg for that pelagic quota?

We do not mind if quotas are allocated. However, they must not be paper quotas; that development must continue. We want the people to get employment opportunities. It is of no use to allocate quotas if the quotas are all caught by factories. One must also consider the social responsibility of those factories to the people. The hon the Minister should go to Stompneus Bay and Steenberg Cove to see how people have to live in hovels and pay R60 a month for an asbestos shack. There is no chance for them to get out of there.

Order! The hon member’s time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to afford the hon member an opportunity to complete his speech.

Thank you, Sir. I feel we must address the problems of the West Coast and reflect on them. We must come to an agreement so that we can all benefit. We cannot ask people day after day to participate in a negotiation process and make promises to them, if, when the time comes to hand things out—as the hon member for Wuppertal said—it would seem that there are no benefits for our community. That hurts us.

It hurts us most in the fishing industry, because this is one of the groups of people who are not protected by legislation. There is no manpower legislation which applies to them. They fall into the category of those people who are worst off as regards their work. There are no measures determining their wages, their hours and their unemployment rights. This is an unfortunate state of affairs in this country which we say we are in the process of reforming.

Another important point is that we must ensure that we create confidence in this political system for the future. Confidence is only going to be created if we develop economic confidence and expand social development. Then this political system we are in the process of developing will lead us to a new future. Then this political system will show the people that there is reform in respect of what we want for a better South Africa. Opportunities to talk here are good, but this is not going to lead us into the future. Actions which mean something to the people will give them confidence in the future.

It is not too late to put right what is wrong. We must simply decide whether we want to satisfy our people now and whether we want a better dispensation for South Africa in future. We can satisfy the people now, in the short term, but in the longer term we are going to drive communities further and further apart. This has never been the case on the West Coast. However, an obvious dividing line is now being drawn on the West Coast. White skippers who are in control are pushing the Coloureds out of the industry and are openly discriminating, because they seem to feel they have more political power than we do.

We West Coast leaders must remember that the entire West Coast suffers if our people do not develop economically. It is not only one section that suffers; the entire community is going to suffer.

We also want to know who is on the Quota Board. Why is it still an interim Quota Board? None of us here in Parliament have heard who makes up the Quota Board. That is why we want to be informed. We agreed to the new legislation and we do not begrudge the industry the new legislation. We say the new legislation must apply to the entire community so that a better future can be created for everyone in the fishing industry.

Mr Chairman, I have noted with concern that there are suggestions that the coastline from Cape Recife to Cape St Francis be closed to professional line fishermen and trawlers and that only recreational fishing be allowed there. This, apparently, is to allow the Agulhas bank fish resource to recover. That such natural resources should be preserved and protected is a fact and a laudable proposition about which I have no qualms. However, it is the way in which we are tackling the problem in this case that I am worried about.

Let us look at the facts. The fishing industry is an integral part of the economic make-up of the area between Port Alfred and Mossel Bay. Thousands of people depend on this source for a livelihood, fickle as the industry may be. I call it fickle because I am a child of the fishing industry and therefore I should know. It is of the kind which is totally dependent upon the eccentric whims of the weather. During fair weather the fishermen can go out and earn a living, but during a time of storms there is hardly any food in the house—I know all about that. From this can be deduced that the more time the fishermen devotes to his trade the better his income and the higher his standard of living will be. To me it is therefore obvious that any regulation which lessens or cuts the time which a fisherman can spend at his job will be detrimental to both employer, employee and the already weak economy of the area under discussion. Above all, it will be a very unpopular regulation.

The hon member for Wuppertal mentioned that the fish have returned to the West Coast of South Africa. I am glad to hear that. I am sure some control was exercised without damaging the economy of the West Coast. Be that as it may, I just cannot picture Port Elizabeth without the fishing boats, trawlers and crews with which it has always been associated. I just cannot imagine myself not being able to buy a fresh fry on a Sunday afternoon when the boats come in. I refuse to think about it. I would rather turn my thoughts to other things.

Many a person among my electorate is dependent upon the fishing industry for a living and I would be failing them, I would be disloyal to them, if I did not make a strong plea for the retention and protection of their jobs. We cannot be callous about this, for the welfare of the people is at stake. We dare not bring any more hardship to the Eastern Cape for the people there are already undergoing tremendous suffering at this very moment. This proposal is tantamount to a call for disinvestment for the Eastern Cape. However, unlike the clerics who go about preaching disinvestment, sanctions and boycotts which, in fact, are elements which create a definite climate for violence, we, who have both the physical and spiritual welfare of the electorate at heart, appreciate the effort made by any organisation to relieve the unemployment, and therefore the hunger, which is prevalent in the Eastern Province. That there is hunger is a fact and it is borne out by the figures released recently by one of the many soup kitchens being operated in the wards of my constituency.

For the information of hon members, the statistics for a certain ward are as follows. In June 1987 we fed 3 168 children and 1 184 adults, which totals 4 352. In July 1987 we fed 7 437 children and 999 adults, which totals 8 436. The figure for August was 7 816 children plus 423 adults, which totals 8 239. We fed 4 849 children and 253 adults in September and this gives us a total of 5 102. In October we fed 7 003 children and 281 adults; a total of 7 284. In November, when we ended the statistics, we fed 3 692 children and 341 adults which totals 3 933. For the period 11 June 1987 to 30 November 1987 a total of 37 346 hungry persons were fed by my kitchens. Mr Chairman, this hunger is caused by lack of work which in turn is due to disinvestment. Let us desist from disinvesting and rather seek other avenues of repair for our fishing industry, if necessary.

Are there not other methods of preserving our fish resources? Why are we benefiting gamefishermen at the expense of professional fishermen? Why do we not investigate other methods of preservation instead of wanting to prohibit commercial fishermen from earning a living? Why do we not disencourage fishing tournaments for a while? Are the people in authority aware of the wholesale slaughter that takes place during such tournaments? Fishing-grounds are stripped of practically anything that bites during such occasions. Most of the tournament fishing is done from pleasure boats. Can we not prohibit that?

I want to add that I have no problem whatsoever with fishermen who angle from the shore. I have a problem with the ski boats mentioned by the hon member for Genadendal and with the free reign given to the ski boats where there is no limit on the catch and/or no limit on the number of boats. It is against that that I am fighting.

Allow me at this stage to pay tribute to the new boat-building company that has brought added impetus to our job creation effort in Port Elizabeth. I want to quote from Oosterlig of 24 February 1988:

This corporation shows a refreshing confidence in Port Elizabeth and its economy. Let us not disappoint them in the new industry which they have started in the region.

The growth of this industry—boat building—depends upon the availability of the natural resource which, in this instance is fish. At this stage I will not go into the cost factor involved in asking professional fishermen to travel to beyond Cape St Francis before wetting a line. I would rather ask that we take into consideration the concern of the Southern Cape Commercial Line Fishermen’s Association, who, in correspondence to me, expressed the opinion that the whole matter should be brought before the National Marine Life Fish Committee for investigation and report back to the hon the Minister.

Order! The hon member’s time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to give the hon member an opportunity to complete his speech.

I thank the hon Whip, Mr Chairman.

This gesture makes complete sense to me. I agree that a wholly scientific approach is essential here before any action which may at a later stage prove harmful to the industry, is taken. Let us call in the experts as well as those who have a stake in the industry so that a solution can be found to this problem—if there is a problem!—of overfishing on the Agulhas bank and other fishing grounds between Cape Recife and Cape St Francis.

The association is also of the opinion that the hon the Minister should expedite the establishment of a line-fish advisory subcommittee. If this, too, is the manner in which the fishing industry in the Eastern part of the country can be protected, preserved and developed, it has the whole-hearted support and the blessing of everyone on the Eastern Sea Board.

Mr Chairman, it is indeed a very great pleasure to participate in the debate on this Vote with the hon members of this Committee. I am happy, because I know that I am amongst friends here.

Good friends!

Very good friends.

†Mr Chairman, this afternoon’s debate has revolved mainly around the fishing industry. The hon member for Bethelsdorp, who was the last hon member to speak, discussed the question of boycotts and disinvestment and the effects thereof on the working people of our country. I cannot express my support for that sentiment adequately in words, nor can I express adequately my feelings against the disinvestment lobby that is causing the type of suffering the hon member spoke about. If only the people would realise that what they are doing is causing harm and suffering amongst ordinary working people of this country, they would desist from continuing this type of campaign against our country.

The hon member for Genadendal expressed appreciation to my colleague, the hon the Minister of Environment Affairs and of Water Affairs and to the officials for their co-operation. I want to thank him for that. He then confined the balance of his speech to fishing licences and quotas. The hon the Minister will respond adequately to his complaints.

The hon member for Wuppertal expressed appreciation for the pleasant day we spent on board the SA Agulhas. I believe that in the debate on this Vote in the other two Houses, no other hon member who was present there considered expressing his appreciation, and for that reason I think this hon member’s words of appreciation to the captain and the crew and all those who made it possible for us to spend that very pleasant day is really appreciated.

The hon member for Retreat was the only hon member who spoke at length about the conservation and protection of our environment. I realise that the majority of hon members in this House are concerned about this matter and that they are associated with the fishing industry in their various constituencies. Most of the hon members confined themselves to the fishing industry and problems associated with the industry.

The hon member for Retreat delivered a thoroughly researched and well-presented speech and I want to express my appreciation in that regard. From my speech, the hon member will gather that all the matters raised by him are, in fact, receiving the attention of my department. Steps are being taken to resolve the matters he spoke about so eloquently.

If present trends continue, the world will be more crowded, more polluted, ecologically less stable and more vulnerable to distortion than the world we live in now. Serious stresses involving population, resources and environmental contamination are clearly visible. Indeed, the problems of preserving the carrying capacity of the earth and of sustaining a decent life for human beings are enormous. There are no easy answers and no simple solutions. The only solutions to these problems are complex and long term.

I have no hesitation in stating that this Vote is probably the core of this country’s Budget as it deals with the very source of our existence. If we do not look after our natural environment, can we expect the environment to look after us? In South Africa we have most of the world’s problems in microcosm. We have different cultures, different backgrounds and different religions, technically highly advanced sections and subsistence farmers and we are in the midst of an industrial revolution. The problems of a population explosion place high demands on our resource utilisation and tempt short-term solutions.

Effective control of waste dumping and dumping sites has become imperative due to the environmental damage caused by thoughtlessness and large-scale disposal of solid waste, the very concern expressed by the hon member for Retreat. The Department of Environment Affairs has compiled extensive regulations in terms of the Environment Conservation Bill which will be published during this year. I fully subscribe to the principle that the manner in which our natural environment will survive, is through the education of the public, and that this education process should start at a very young age. It does not mean, however, that the adults of this country should be excluded from these education efforts, since their co-operation and active involvement is imperative to the survival of our environment. Indeed, we have opted for the long-term solutions of the problem. I am sure hon members are aware that my department is actively involved in many ways in educating the public. I am referring to publications, competitions, museums, and the school radio, as well as the role we play in the Secosaf committee on education as far as the TBVC countries are concerned.

In the time I have available, I would like to highlight one of the latest achievements in the field of environmental education. There has long been a need for a comprehensive guide for teachers in all phases of education, and the department has recently issued a publication titled Teaching for Environmental Conservation. This guide was initiated by the education committee of the Council for the Environment and I would like to take this opportunity of thanking them for their efforts and the perseverance that has gone into this fine piece of work.

I have a copy of this publication here. I think the hon member for Retreat should also obtain a copy. I am sure he will find that it makes very interesting reading.

Mr Chairman, before I put my question to the hon the Deputy Minister, I want to congratulate him on the new party which they have just formed. [Interjections.]

Order! That is news to us. [Interjections.]

Sir, the party’s name is the New People’s Party of South Africa.

As a senior Capetonian, I should like to ask the hon the Deputy Minister whether provision has been made to preserve the oak trees in Cape Town and its surroundings, in view of the fact that they form part of our heritage and should be preserved for the generations to come.

Sir, the first part of the hon member’s question has no relevance to this debate. As far as the second part of the question is concerned, that is not a matter that comes under the jurisdiction of this department. I believe it falls under the jurisdiction of the local authority and the province. However, I will investigate the matter and communicate with the hon member at a later stage.

Sir, I want to quote a section from the guide:

An analysis of the methodology of teaching environmental conservation proved that it would be far better to include the subject matter in other subjects instead of teaching environmental conservation as a subject on its own. This is also one of the objectives of the publication. The publication is at present being widely distributed in the country, to educationalists of all races. Copies are obtainable at the department’s head office in Pretoria.

With regard to planning, when it comes to decisions which have an influence on the environment, tertiary educational bodies such as universities and technikons are asked to adapt their training programmes for professions which have an influence on the environment in order to cater for these influences. These professions include those of engineers, planners, economists, architects, etc. I sincerely hope that these training institutions will react positively to this request.

As I mentioned in the beginning, environmental education should not be restricted to children of school-going age or, for that matter, to students only. I agree that the harm which is done to our environment by adults is often far worse than that done by the young. There is, for example, the problem of fishermen—hon members in this House are well aware of this—polluting our coastline with plastic and other waste matter. This problem should be addressed by way of special programmes for the education of specific groups. I believe that hon members here who are associated with the fishing industry have a role to play in this regard.

[Inaudible.]

Well, some of them; probably not all of them. We cannot generalise in matters like these, Sir. As far as pollution is concerned, one cannot generalise because not all adults or all children are guilty of polluting our environment.

There are certain uncaring people who do this, and because we have some people in our midst who do this, harm is done to our country at large. Many people are concentrated in the urban and built up environments and this naturally results in an increase in the pollution levels of all types of waste. In terms of solid waste emanating from the households of our cities and towns, the Keep South Africa Beautiful Association plays an important role in trying to eliminate this type of pollution. This organisation, as hon members probably know, concerns itself mainly with the education of the public at large. Children are the main target, as it is felt that this group will determine the behaviour of future generations. Involvement of these groups are also encouraging, since it indicates that the private sector has also become aware of the necessity of environmental education.

I would also like to commend the Keep South Africa Beautiful Association for its efforts to involve the local authorities in the battle against littering. A few municipalities have heeded the call of the association, and I appeal to others to follow their example and to launch schemes to keep their own environment in proper shape. The association offers financial incentives for those who participate. Positive progress was made with the roads department of the Natal Provincial Administration in creating job opportunities by the employment of people to clean up the verges of the Natal provincial roads. During the period from July 1985 to 30 June 1986, a total of 42 950 kg of glass and 33 980 kg of metal was collected for recycling. An enormous amount of plastic, cardboard boxes and paper was also collected. This programme took 188 420 man-hours to accomplish and provided job opportunities for 1388 unemployed people. It was significant to note how many unemployed women participated in this project.

A good example of a city that has launched a very successful scheme is Durban, and I wish to congratulate that city council on what they have achieved. Since the formation of the Keep Durban Beautiful Association there has been a reduction of litter in the city of over 50%—a very fine achievement indeed. There is another aspect to this association and that is that they do not only concentrate on Durban proper, but they have reached across to KwaZulu and are doing a lot of work to assist KwaZulu in their efforts to keep that part of our country clean. I am really grateful for that and I want to reiterate my congratulations to them.

The problem of littering along our roads is particularly noticeable on the highway between Port Elizabeth and Uitenhage. I say this because I was there a few weeks ago. I do not know whether the reason was that it happened after the cleaning operation was undertaken, or whether it happened because it was on a particular day of the week, but I saw an enormous amount of littering along that highway. One way of solving this problem would be to make use of unemployed people, as is being done by the Natal provincial authorities. I am sure other provinces could follow this example. I appeal to hon members to remember that education, particularly environmental education, is vital for our own survival as well as the survival of future generations. A prominent environmentalist once said that if we are not part of the solution we might indeed be part of the problem.

In conclusion I want to associate myself with the hon member for Retreat—and I believe these are his sentiments as well—and emphasise that of all living creatures the human being is the only one who pollutes his own environment to such an extent that he becomes a threat to his own species. The human being himself is the only one who can do something about this tragic fact—and that is all of us collectively. Let us bear this in mind in our daily endeavours.

Mr Chairman, I shall limit my short speech to pollution. My hon colleagues spoke about the fishing industry and the problems that industry is experiencing, and therefore I shall speak only about pollution.

†I feel that our environment is very important to us. I go so far as to say that it is our sacred duty to protect it at all costs. Firstly, I want to speak about mountain fires which destroy the environment on our beautiful Cape mountains. About three years ago we had a runaway fire on Table Mountain which left the mountain scarred for over a year. The fire, as we know, was started by some careless man who held a braai there and failed to ensure that the fire was doused when he left. Well, for all the trouble he caused—over a million rand’s worth—he received six months’ community service, which meant nothing to him.

Last year there was a serious fire in the mountains near Ceres. Serious damage was caused by the destruction of fynbos, one of the unique species of vegetation in the Cape, and it will take years for it to recover its former beauty. Now again we have had a disastrous fire in the area between Murdoch Valley and Smitswinkel Bay near Simon’s Town. According to newspaper reports this morning it is estimated that the damage will exceed R1 million. The matter is being investigated and they hope that a charge will be laid against the offender or offenders.

What is so serious about this is not only the destruction and the pollution, but also the fact that the lives of people were endangered. The report states that 13 houses were destroyed with their contents. One can imagine what the position there would be, apart from the pollution that was caused. It is fortunate that there was no loss of life, but 18 000 hectares of fynbos was destroyed in the fire. These are just a few examples of what has happened within the last few years. It is to be hoped that people will be more careful in future.

I now want to talk about pollution of the sea. Pollution at sea is governed by an Act of Parliament. Any master of a vessel which causes spillage of oil, for instance, is subject to heavy penalties and his ship can be impounded if his agents do not pay up. The spillage of oil is a hazard to our marine resources like fish, mussels, prawns, shellfish and even trawled fish. There is also a question of sewage being discharged. However, I am told, despite complaints, that the matter was thoroughly investigated and it was found that no raw sewage was in fact going into the sea as people living in the Green Point and Sea Point areas had alleged.

I mentioned fish being poisoned and this is particularly prevalent with acid waste being discharged into rivers from factories on the Natal coast, resulting in the death of fish. This is the direct result of pollution.

I believe appropriate steps were taken and that the matter is being remedied. There is an organisation in Cape Town which I wish to thank. The hon the Deputy Minister mentioned the Keep Durban Beautiful Organisation. We have had here in Cape Town, for quite a number of years now, the Fairest Cape Association.

*I want to thank them, because they are doing their best to keep the fairest Cape in shape. Hon members have probably all seen their posters on walls and lampposts. They read: “Keep the Cape in Shape” and “Hou die Kaap in die haak”. This organisation co-operates with our schools where our children are made aware of the beauty of nature and the environment. I understand they enjoy a lot of support from the department and various principals have enquired about information, brochures etc. The organisation provides the schools with literature on environment affairs and environmental conservation, and it visits schools at the request of principals and provides information on its work and aims. I appreciate the fact that the hon the Minister’s department supports them. I should like to request that they receive even more support should they require it.

†The purpose of the Fairest Cape Association is to promote environmental awareness in the streets and around the home, to motivate children to plant trees and to avoid littering. If this is to be instilled in our children, bigger subsidies are needed and I want to ask the hon the Minister to look into the matter.

I want to compliment one of our hon members who spoke about the planting of trees. I also want to compliment another hon member of this House who serves on the management committee. He told me it was their aim to teach the children and parents in each area to plant trees and also grass their pavements so that their immediate environment is beautified.

I am not going to talk about the roads. The hon the Deputy Minister mentioned what he saw along the road between Uitenhage and Port Elizabeth. I often travel down to the Eastern Cape.

*Bins have been placed along the road, but one sees empty cooldrink and beer cans and bottles lying everywhere.

†They are not placed into the rubbish bins which are provided there for that purpose. That is why I feel that environmental education is most important. I agree with the hon member who said that in his view it was more important to teach people to improve their environment than to talk a lot of highfalutin politics.

In conclusion I want to say something about trees. I am reminded of the lyrics of the song Trees—I think all hon members know it—where the songwriter says:

Mr Chairman, I should like to start by associating myself with the hon member for Daljosaphat who spoke chiefly on pollution. I want to thank him sincerely for his contribution. I do not think we can place enough emphasis on how important it is that we protect our environment.

†The hon member made the point that fires not only destroy the habitat, but also endanger lives and cause pollution. I agree that we must be extremely careful and I would like to add that we must do everything we possibly can to make others aware of the dangers of fire.

Pollution of the sea is naturally of great concern to us all, especially to those of us in this department. The hon member may rest assured that the department is actively doing everything in its power to combat this problem. I would also like to refer him to a Press release I made recently in which I dealt with the measures that are being taken in cases of oil pollution on our coasts.

I would also like to thank the hon the Deputy Minister for the work he is doing in this department. He is enthusiastic about his work, especially with regard to the educational side and the “Keep South Africa Beautiful” campaign which has been delegated to him. I would also like to thank the officials in my department and all its various subdivisions. I would like to thank the chief executive for their contribution towards running this department as smoothly as possible. I would also like to thank the Council for the Environment which came forward with excellent advice from time to time. As hon members would know, this council is an advisory body. It advises the Minister and his officials on a great variety of matters concerning the department.

The Habitat Council, with all its numerous affiliated bodies—if I am not mistaken there are approximately 100 various different bodies affiliated to this council—are interested in environmental affairs. Then there is also the South Africa Nature Foundation.

*The SA Nature Foundation makes contributions from time to time to enable us to purchase land for nature areas or parks. Without the contributions of all these bodies it would have been impossible to extend our parks at the tempo at which it is actually being done. The Wildlife Society also plays an important part. There are societies from the private sector which play a part; there are also nature conservation departments in the various local authorities of the provinces. These societies deserve our gratitude. †Before I reply to the speeches of hon members, I would like to say a few things. Firstly, I must point out again that the activities of the Department of Environment Affairs are of a diverse nature.

Moreover, because of the complex composition of the department it is self-evident that certain activities will be more in the limelight than others. I think this afternoon’s debate was characterised mainly by speeches on the fishing industry. There were, of course, other speeches which I shall come back to.

It is common knowledge, Sir, that there are basically only two methods of making the public more conservation conscious. The one way is by education and the other by legislation or law enforcement. The latter is very topical, because an entire Bill was drawn up and published in the Gazette inviting all interested parties to submit comments. A great deal of deliberation has taken place and is still taking place between the department, conservation bodies, the industrial world, individuals, etc, and I believe the proposed legislation will reflect the general will of the majority of the Republic’s population. This Bill will be introduced within the next session of Parliament.

Law enforcement and the introduction of strict control measures are, as a rule, not very popular. The State, as the custodian of the country’s marine resources, has a duty to see to it that these resources are judiciously utilised so that generations to come will still have the benefit thereof.

The situation with many of our scarce resources like prawns, crayfish, galjoen and all the others, is a very good example of how careful we must be in exploiting these resources. I am sure that if uncontrolled exploitation had been allowed the resources would not only have been depleted, but also destroyed completely, as was the case in other countries. A chap asked me the other day why we limit the public to four “kreef’ per day. Is it not the right of the public, he asked, to take “kreef’ when they like? I told him that it was indeed the public’s right and that I wanted the public to continue to exercise that right; not only this generation but also the next generation and the generation after that, and that was the very reason that we had to protect the resource.

*Surely we do not want to take everything we have today and leave nothing for our children; they have to live too. They should also have the privilege of taking an abalone or a rock lobster, so we have to guard our resources strictly.

†I must also refer, however, to another section of our department, and that is Forestry. The subject of forestry was referred to this afternoon by, I think, the hon member for Retreat. I shall come back to the hon members’ contributions, in any case.

As regards forestry, there has been a marked improvement in the demand for timber and timber products, which demand is reflected in the application for forest station permits. The demand has been especially high in Natal, Zululand and the Eastern Transvaal. Private growers and the larger firms are also increasingly committing themselves to more research efforts as well as better professional management. If time allows me to, I shall come back to the forestry situation in more detail.

Suitably qualified and experienced staff will be needed for any expansion in the private sector and I envisage that a significant percentage of these people will be drawn from the department. This will have a somewhat disruptive effect on the department’s organization, but should contribute to better management of private plantations. This will result in higher yield and improved utilisation, which would to some extent assist in meeting the expected increased demands and avert the possible shortage already foreseen. In spite of a tight budget, the department has managed to expand the forestry extension service.

We must continuously encourage South Africans to plant trees for a greener South Africa. Arbor Day actions, the Tree of the Year Booklet and the annual Arbor City awards are also gathering momentum and contribute towards the greening of South Africa. For this a word of thanks must go the SA Nursery Association which has been very actively involved.

Finally, I would like to refer briefly to another branch of our work, namely the Weather Bureau. It was not mentioned here today. I understood there was an hon member who wanted to speak on this subject, but he apparently forgot to do so. The Weather Bureau forms a very important link in the South African environment, but it is very often blamed—without justification—for bad weather conditions and inaccurate forecasts. Recently a weather watch service was introduced which, for example, accurately predicted the Natal floods. Hon members will also notice that short-term warnings about severe weather conditions are now regularly being made available to the media as a result of this service. The public should take note of these warnings as it can save lives and property if the necessary precautions are taken timeously.

I would like to pay tribute to the dedicated endeavours of this small group of scientists and technicians of the Weather Bureau who work so enthusiastically for very long hours—sometimes under very difficult circumstances—to provide us with the best possible weather forecasts.

I would now like to deal briefly with some of the speeches made here this afternoon. I want to start off with the hon member for Retreat, who spoke on quite a number of very interesting topics. He referred to the protection of the environment and I agree with him that we have to protect our environment. I have often said that God provided for man’s needs, but not for his greeds. If we do not protect our environment, man will take everything. As my hon colleague said, man will destroy his own habitat and environment.

The hon member also referred to the Mossel Bay gas project. In this regard I can assure him that very detailed environmental impact studies were made before it was decided to put that project there.

*We held long discussions and numerous investigations were carried out. Five possible locations were examined.

In the light of environmental impact studies which were carried out, that project was ultimately located there. Of course, we had to consider the economy too. Nevertheless I can assure the hon member that environmental impact studies specifically made an important contribution to that project.

†Then the hon member referred to the devolution of certain areas to the Cape Provincial Administration and he mentioned De Hoop. My latest information is that the situation at De Hoop is under control. Dr Hey, who is in charge and who is responsible for assessing the prevailing situation, said in his latest report that he was satisfied that the Cape Provincial Administration was handling the situation very well.

The hon member spoke about the recent fire in Simon’s Town. Of course, we have a lot of sympathy with the people who were affected by the fire. As far as I know Table Mountain is under the jurisdiction of the Municipality of Cape Town and it also falls under the Cape Provincial Administration. The hon member requested that the department monitor carefully what is happening to our nature reserves. He mentioned the possibility of setting up a fire control system similar to that used in forest plantations. It is a very interesting suggestion. If there is no machinery for handling such situations at present, I will seriously consider his suggestion.

The hon member also mentioned littering and spoke about garbage being thrown from car windows. This, too, is an educational matter.

*A11 our people must be educated not to fling refuse out of car windows. Look at the appearance of our sports fields after sports meetings. One would say a bunch of barbarians had been there; it is horrendous. The costs of cleaning such places are very high. Look at the city; look at any town on a Saturday afternoon after people have finished their morning’s shopping. One is really ashamed because people act like this. That is why I believe we should start paying serious attention to imposing heavier fines. We need not make laws, because they exist already; regulations do too. We should probably ensure that the regulations are applied more stringently.

In California one sees notices everywhere which read: “$50 fine for littering”. If one is caught throwing an empty cigarette box out of a car window, one is immediately given a spot fine of $50. This threat is carried out. We ourselves have many laws and regulations; we should just start applying them. The taxpayer ultimately pays for cleaning the streets by way of higher taxation.

†Therefore I am of the opinion that we must make these regulations stricter in order to prevent pollution.

The hon member also referred to the situation in regard to forestries. Since the new law has been passed, we have had very few applications.

The whole idea is to protect the smaller growers, but it is also a matter of profitability for the smaller grower. What does the smaller grower do, however, when he feels that he is not making adequate profits? Unfortunately, he then sells his produce to the bigger man.

*It is very difficult to prevent this. The Competition Board published a weighty report on over-concentration in forestry. We are extremely aware of the problem of overconcentration which we experience in the timber industry. Unfortunately, however, it is one of those industries in which a large amount of initial capital is required to make a start. One has to wait a long time; it takes one 10, 12 of 15 years from the time one plants trees until one can derive an income from them. Large companies have no problems, because they have reserves upon which they can draw, but it is difficult for the little man.

†For that reason we introduced this subsidy scheme, but thus far very few growers have actually applied for that.

Lastly the hon member referred to “bochram”. How does one pronounce it? Does one say “bokram”, because it sounds like the Afrikaans word “bokram”? [Interjections.] Nevertheless, since our debate last year my information is—and I have enquired about that again this morning from the province, which is now the controlling authority—that there was no application in regard to making more land available. I do not know exactly what the situation is, but this is the information I have.

*The province says that in the meantime there were no representations for expansion in that area. That deals with the hon member for Retreat. Hon members must pardon me if I do not reply to them in detail. If I look at the numbers in the House, it appears to me that some hon members are already beginning to think about the weekend ahead.

I now come to the hon member for Genadendal. He expressed his gratitude for the flowers, he thanked senior officials too and also conveyed his thanks for the trip we had on the SA Agulhas. I appreciate his expressions of thanks and we shall convey them to Kirstenbosch. Kirstenbosch is celebrating its 75th anniversary this year and we intend holding one of the largest flower shows ever held in the world in Cape Town later this year. I think we shall draw an enormous number of foreign tourists on that occasion and we also want to express our sincere thanks to the sponsors, who are making this possible, for their contribution. We wish Kirstenbosch everything of the best.

The hon the Minister of Genadendal spoke about the fishing industry after that …[Interjections.]

Order! It is the “hon member” for Genadendal.

Did I say “the Minister”? The hon member will probably not mind if I call him this now and then. [Interjections.] The hon member said that fishermen had never had much confidence in my department. He complained about the moratorium of three years which the Quota Board had imposed on the sale of chokka boats. This is essential to limit the transfer of boats in order to eliminate speculation in licences. That is the reason for the decision. If we permit it in one case, we must permit it in all cases and then we shall never see an end to it. People will have to remember—I recommended this—to concentrate on line-fish catches. They can make good money from such catches.

The hon member had a number of personal problems which he should not come and discuss in the House, because I do not have all the details available. I receive so many letters that I cannot remember all the letters he wrote to me and I to him. I want to invite him, however, to come to me with his problems so that we may discuss them. My door is open and the hon member is very welcome.

As regards ski boats, I merely want to say that such a boat which has an A or B licence may obviously sell its catches. A licence holder is entitled to sell them but, if somebody is not the holder of an A or a B licence and sells his catches, he is contravening the law. If people become aware that this is happening—fishermen know very well who have licences and who do not—they must report it so that we can prosecute those people. While I am on the subject, I want to say that the Government, with its small number of inspectors, cannot serve as the eyes of the entire public, but the entire public can be the eyes and ears of the Government. If people notice irregularities, such as happened recently for instance when a man’s catch had filled his boat to such an extent that he could not get to the quay and had to throw the fish overboard, they should report it at the first possible place, to the first policeman or whoever. Then we can arrest such a person, because I will not tolerate that type of action but my inspectors are unfortunately not always present. The public must help us and tell us when they see offences being committed.

As regards the Line-Fish Committee, I want to say this committee is soon to be activated again by request. The activities of the committee came to a halt, but we are activating it again and we shall consider its continued existence and its functions. We shall see whether we should not extend the functions of the committee and we shall look at its composition. The hon member will be fully entitled to direct his representations to the Line-Fish Committee.

Then there is the question of buildings and land at fishing harbours. Unfortunately the hon member should not discuss this with me but with the Cape Provincial Administration, because the province has assumed control over all fishing harbours and all representations in this regard are to be directed to the CPA. [Interjections.] Yes, there are Votes for the provinces and the hon member may discuss them in that debate. As regards double licensing, I believe there is a mistake there. No person may use one licence on two boats. The hon member must also furnish the CPA, which has control of such matters, with that information.

This brings me to the hon member for Wuppertal. The hon member expressed his thanks for the pleasant tour. We hope we can undertake a few more tours—longer ones. He said he sang the same tune every year and complained about the lot of the West Coast men. I do not blame him. It is an MP’s duty to complain about the problems of his voters and, as long as the complaints are fair, I have no problems. The hon member may complain in such a case.

The hon member said he was very sorry that I had withdrawn the quotas of 82 ton, or 200 kg, from the 410 oldest catchers of rock lobster. Sir, I did not withdraw those quotas to be unpleasant. I made very sure that not one of those men would suffer financial losses, because I substituted something which would provide the same financial returns. We substituted a bonus system for those 82 ton or 200 kg per person in which all catchers of rock lobster, not only the 410 who have been catching longest, may share.

What was our problem? The hon member knows very well, but I shall explain it. Up to the present the returns on those 82 ton have not been paid out yet.

Why not?

Because in the first place there was a long struggle in the identification of the 410 catchers. I proceeded from the standpoint—and I discussed this with the hon member for Wuppertal and the hon member for Mamre—that, where one fisherman had 10 years’ service and the other 11 years, to give the one with an extra year’s service a nice fat bonus at the end of the year and not to give it to the other who had worked just as hard, was unfair. I think the hon member agreed with me at that time that we should rather share the returns of the quota among all the men who caught rock lobster, regardless of their period of service. I want to tell the hon member that if one shared the returns on that quota among only 410 men, whereas there are more than 1 000 rock lobster catchers, there would be very great dissatisfaction in those communities.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I should like to point out to the hon the Minister that there are quota holders who are attached to various companies, but also fish for other boats. They also share in this quota now. This is where the inequity arises in my opinion.

I think our present system, which is based on performance, is the fairer system. Fishermen will not be worse off, because I have obtained the co-operation of the industry and they have agreed to guarantee that the returns on the quota and the returns under the bonus system do not differ from each other. This is a much more equitable division. In addition, problems which arise when a person allocates a quota to a group of unidentified persons are legion. I shall return to this again.

There are rock lobster catchers who have been catching lobsters for years and who are actually migrant labourers; they come and go. One cannot say that such a person is not a rock lobster catcher, because he returns year after year to catch his lobsters. Is he not to share in this now?

It is administratively impossible to handle such loose quotas. I want to deal with the next question immediately. The hon member spoke about the line fishermen of Kalk Bay. My predecessor allocated a small quota to them because he felt that their economic conditions were poor, and I have every respect for his good intentions. But, Sir, these people have been fishing for the second season and have not yet received payments for the first season. Why not? These rock lobster catchers appointed an identification committee and spent a great deal of time on identifying …

Those are line fishermen.

Yes, but it was felt at the time that the fishermen were not in the total rock lobster area and that is why such a concession was made to them. The problem, however, is that the fishermen have not received anything up to the present. My senior officials informed me that a list had been put up this week by the identification committee. Fishermen can now establish whether they have a share in the quota or not. When everyone has taken a look, however, trouble will start. This list does not mean an end to problems, but a beginning of problems. Because I experience enough problems, I have permitted them to continue in this way this year, but I do not know whether we can continue with this in the long term. This type of thing does not work.

Let us look at the South West situation to which the hon member for Wuppertal referred. What happened there? I shall tell hon members what problems one encounters when one issues quotas which are not allocated to a specific person. There is a fishermen’s association in SWA which received a quota just like the pelagic association in South Africa. The quota was not for anchovy, but for sardines. Last year they hawked their quota about. The fish were ultimately caught and sold and the returns deposited in a bank account. The committee decided to deal with this. A certain portion of the returns was paid into a pension fund at my insistence. I proposed that they should reinforce their pension fund and distribute the balance among the fishermen. They then did this.

All fishermen—Coloured, Black and White—belonged to the fishermen’s association. After the money had been distributed, problems arose. It is being said that certain people could not be members of the association because, in terms of the constitution of the association which was written in the year dot, it was only for White fishermen. The current executive came to me and asked what they were to do. My advice was that they should take a decision which was retrospective in force so that they could condone their action of last year, and then they were to take new decisions which would be applicable to this year. I have been informed that that association is now disbanding in consequence of the political situation and other factors which are unknown to me. I am still investigating the matter.

Membership of these associations does not remain constant; it varies continually. At one moment a person is a member, then he is not; at one moment the two groups are together, then they are separated again; then another section breaks away. Sometimes a group of people comes to see my at my office and say they represent this or that association; they have broken away from another association, they are the genuine article and we are not to listen to the other men because they are a bunch of rogues. A week later another group turns up whose members say they hope we have not listened to the group of rogues who visited us a few days earlier because they are the wrong chaps and they themselves are the right ones.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Minister whether the example he is quoting now refers to Walvis Bay or the pelagic association?

Sir, I used the Walvis Bay situation as an example, but what happened there could happen here too.

It did not happen here.

It could happen here. Last year I erroneously described the West Coast Pelagic Association as the West Coast Association in this House. The West Coast Pelagic Association consists of members of the West Coast Fishermen’s Association. Last year the hon member for Wuppertal was very difficult—I have the Hansard containing his speech here—about the way in which the West Coast Pelagic Association handled matters. The hon member made the statement that there was an executive of two or three members who controlled everything. The hon member was very unhappy. I do not wish to interfere with the composition or executive of that association, but I want to add that that association has about R2 million in hand at this stage which has to be paid to its members. The executive of that association is already experiencing great problems with this and the problems are specifically the result of the fact that people who were members of the association last year are no longer members and vice versa. This is definitely going to lead to all kinds of actions, merely because an unidentified group of people was allocated a quota. I could mention a further example of which hon members are well aware.

A quota was allocated to abalone divers, but as a result of all kinds of wheeling and dealing which I cannot go into at the moment, this quota was transferred to a company which in turn issued shares. Do hon members know what the result of this was? Ultimately a type of trust fund was created with the then Viskor, but when Viskor went under, this trust fund was transferred to the SBDC who were to be the trustees in succession according to my information. Later I was informed by these people’s legal advisers, as well as the company’s legal advisers, that the trust fund had not been put in trust and that I still actually had to establish such a fund. If one wants to establish a trust fund, however, one has to determine exactly who the beneficiaries under that trust are. Since that transaction took place three or four years ago, we have not been able to identify the beneficiaries to date.

I now have to obtain a declaratory court order in an effort to identify those people. Only when I have identified the beneficiaries can I establish a trust, and only when I have established the trust can one look at the payment of money.

If one takes steps which are not normal business practice, one creates endless problems for one-self—so many problems that the game is not ultimately worth the candle. That is why I decided that I did not wish to allocate this type of quota. I believe it is not right. There are many other reasons which I shall also mention to hon members.

Mr Chairman, may I put a question to the hon the Minister?

No, Sir, the hon member may put his question later; I want to finish here first.

In the light of administrative problems which may arise, I decided that I would no longer allocate that kind of quota while I am in control. Soon the Quota Board will take over; then they can make the decisions.

I want to tell this House today, however, what I actually did. I said I was not prepared to take something away if it would place people in a weaker financial position than before. Consequently in each of these cases—this applies in respect of rock lobster and the pelagic fish quota—I came to an agreement with the industry that work would proceed on a bonus system. In this way there can be no uncertainty on who comes into consideration for this. If a deck hand unloads his fish, he counts as crew and has to be paid. His bonus is calculated the moment he unloads the fish. This may be paid to him—two, three or four times a year—according to the decision of the association. The returns on the bonus system will leave fishermen in exactly the same financial position.

But who will control it?

Control over payment will take place exactly as in the case of the payment of the people’s salaries. The association will still be able to tell its members in terms of its constitution—I looked at its constitution—that they are to give up part of the bonus they receive to the association for certain purposes. If hon members are satisfied with that, they can do it in that way.

The association then has the entire sum of money at its disposal. The executive of the association then decides how it will handle it and consults its members as to whether this is in order. Hon members in this House say, however, that the ordinary deck hand will not stand up and say he is dissatisfied, because he will lose his job the next day.

Sir, the hon member for Mamre may put his question now.

Mr Chairman, my question deals with the quota. The issue here is not administrative problems. As regards the Walvis Bay quota, there are similar administrative problems but their quota is not taken away. If the hon the Minister does not wish to allocate quotas in that kind of case, what about a community like Paternoster, which is a struggling one? The hon the Minister will recall that quotas have been allocated to municipalities.

Sir, I am pleased the hon member has raised the question of Walvis Bay. The people of Walvis Bay have already been notified that I intend converting that quota into a bonus system too. As Walvis Bay is far from us, however, and they have a number of internal problems there, I have not yet been able to sort out the matter at administrative level. Nevertheless I have told them to take note of the fact that I intend removing the quota. Severe pressure is now being applied from the side of the association itself that I should preferably convert it into a bonus system, such as we have here now.

The hon member referred to smuggling and said that it was assuming serious proportions. We are very concerned about this and hon members will be aware that the administrator said the other day that he was prepared to appoint more fishing officers. I believe that theft is not being perpetrated against the Government; it is not the Government’s fish they are catching; they are catching South Africa’s fish and, the more fish is stolen, the poorer the resource will become and the longer we shall have to wait before it recovers. I say, therefore, that we have to clamp down on smugglers.

The hon member also referred to the Quota Board. He asked who served on it. I wrote this down somewhere while he was talking. The board consists of four people, Mr Ramsey, Mr Barry, a former Auditor-General, Mr Goldschmidt—he comes from that hon member’s part of the world—and Prof Van Wyk. This is the interim Quota Board and, as hon members know, the standing committee decided that I was to appoint a retired judge as the chairman of the permanent Quota Board. I said at the time that it was causing problems and this is still the case. I am still struggling to find a chairman. Retired judges are not very plentiful. Meanwhile the interim Quota Board is continuing its activities and all the members have already informed me in writing that they are prepared to serve under a new chairman, a retired judge, on the permanent Quota Board. An hon member made an interjection that the hon member should go and talk to the Minister and I want to invite him to tea so that we may have a good discussion about these matters.

Hon members must understand me clearly now as regards the question of job reservation. Hon members and we ourselves pleaded for the abolition of job reservation for years. What will happen if we have to go to a fishing boat from our small group and say that the composition of the crew must be such and such, so many Coloureds, so many Whites, etc?

That is not what we are requesting.

The hon member complained and said that Whites were being engaged instead of Coloureds. I shall tell hon members why this happens. It happens because last year was a good one for the fishing industry; people made good money. I mentioned in this House before how much they earned and I still have the figures in my possession. [Interjections.] As soon as any industry fares well, job-hunters pour into it. This is a perfectly natural economic phenomenon. As long as an industry is faring well, people pour into it. This is what is happening to the fishing industry now; this is what is happening now. [Interjections.] Must we introduce job reservation?

No, that is wrong.

We are talking about bona fide fishermen.

Order! Does the hon member for Wuppertal want to put a question?

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I want to set a matter straight. What we said was that bona fide fishermen should have preference. The hon the Minister is misleading the House somewhat.

Who is a bona fide fisherman? I ask any hon member to define a bona fide fisherman. Does he have to catch fish on a continuous basis? Does he have to make a living from fishing? It is just as difficult to define a bona fide fanner. When is he bona fide? Is he permitted to do other work or not? Is he to work on one boat? Is he permitted to fish at some times and not at others? How long may he be off? It is impossible to define this.

As the Minister, I cannot interfere in the staff situation which applies as regards a boat or a factory or wherever. A skipper puts out to sea and who does he take with him? A steersman, a driver and six deck hands; that is eight men to one. If that skipper does not trust that staff, surely he cannot put out to sea. One cannot go to sea with a man if you do not trust him 100%. I am not going to tell a skipper to take this man or that man. I received lists—the hon member has those lists—of skippers who dismissed people and engaged others. My attitude throughout was that I could not interfere in the matter of whom a skipper took into service or did not take into service. [Interjections.] He must be a bona fide fisherman, for instance, but these people who are taken into service are bona fide fishermen.

We shall not arrive at a solution to the problem across the floor of the House this afternoon, but I am merely saying that it is an extremely dangerous situation once one starts interfering. In that case I also have to go and see who is working at a factory or at a workshop doing repairs. I can no more tell a farmer on his farm that he must hire A, B or C and may not hire D or E, than I can tell a skipper this.

The hon member for Mamre has a great problem. He has a community at Paternoster which is a poor community; one could almost call it a less developed community. I have a report on the Paternoster situation with me now. It is a comprehensive report—a socio-economic study—and I made it available to the hon member. I am aware that the people at Paternoster are not faring well, but I want to tell the hon member that I cannot solve the problem merely with more rock lobster. The solution for the people of Paternoster lies in a package deal which they should be offered. A whole package of solutions is required. Questions of employment, housing and relations between employers and employees must be examined there, because at the moment there is no other housing scheme than that which is supplied to employees by employers. It is also true that the land on which the houses were built is unsuitable. For instance, no proper sewerage can be installed.

It is true that there are numerous problems at Paternoster, but one should not oversimplify the matter either. Buses run daily, in co-operation with some of the factories and industries, from Paternoster to the factories to fetch people and take them home. [Interjections.] I spoke to them and they are all prepared to run more buses if there are more people who want to work. Hon members know that I opened a new factory there the other day and that there are additional job opportunities.

Of course, we have a situation that not one of the factories on the West Coast is in full production at the moment. All the factories have surplus capacity. People overestimated the future of the industry and many of them built factories which were too big. There are factories which are not being used at all and the hon member knows this. There was a strong possibility that some of the factories would close, but mercifully fish became plentiful again and we have had very good catches over the past year.

We must investigate the situation at Paternoster on a much broader basis and not take only a single product, rock lobster, into account. On a previous occasion I told the hon member that I was involved in an investigation and I hope that we shall be able to start an industry which processes seals. Paternoster is ideally suited to this. I have to rely on the private sector in this regard, however, and wait for them to come forward to create the necessary job opportunities. It would be wrong if the Government were to create job opportunities there; it cannot do this. We must persuade the private sector, however, to erect factories and to start new industries. I am thinking, for instance, of the possibility of marine farming, something for which this area is ideal. More research has to be done on the culture of mussels. There are people who have started on this now and such undertakings will create extra job opportunities.

I am slowly working my way to the end.

†The hon member for Bethelsdorp suggested the closing of the coastline so that the line-fish on the shores could recover, and I agree with him whole-heartedly. He also spoke of game-fishermen being benefited to the detriment of the commercial fishermen. This is a very difficult balance to maintain.

*One asks local authorities to promote tourism, but how does one promote tourism at a coastal town? It is done by attracting fishermen, anglers and fishing competitions. The hon member said we had to put a stop to tournaments.

†However, these tournaments have enormous value for the tourism industry. I do not think it would be wise to stop these tournaments completely.

*Mr Chairman, I think I have replied to all hon members now. We have had a very good discussion. I want to invite hon members who have specific problems to make appointments with my office on conclusion of the debate and to come and discuss their problems with me. I want to express my sincere thanks to all hon members who participated in the debate; it was a pleasant experience.

Votes agreed to.

Chairman directed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.

Mr Chairman, I move:

Agreed to.

The Constitution Amendment Act was promulgated in Gazette No 11295 today.

The effect of this is that as from Monday, 9 May, the Houses will conduct their business according to Rules of Procedure adopted by them.

Certain items on the Order Papers have already been partially dealt with according to the Standing Orders of the Houses and the Joint Rules and will now be proceeded with in terms of the new Rules, as adapted by this ruling.

In the case of an Appropriation Bill the new Rules provide that the bill is introduced at the First Reading stage and finally disposed of at the Second Reading stage. The Second Reading stage of the Main Appropriation Bill has already been disposed of in each House in terms of the Joint Rules and its Standing Orders and will for the purposes of the new Rules be regarded as the First Reading stage. Votes already agreed to will be regarded as disposed of. Votes not yet agreed to by the Houses will henceforth be discussed and disposed of in terms of the new Rules of Procedure.

When the Votes have been disposed of, the Bill will be placed on the Order Paper for Second Reading. The same arrangement will apply to the Appropriation Bills of the House of Assembly, House of Representatives and House of Delegates.

Amendments to Bills appearing on the Order Papers will in terms of Rule 150(4) be recommitted, together with the Bill, to the joint committee concerned, and the approval of the Second Reading of the Bill in terms of the previous Rules will for the purposes of the new Rules be deemed to be the conclusion of the debate on the Second Reading. The provisions of Rule 151 will apply to such Bills, ie the consideration of the report of the joint committee and a decision on the Second Reading of the Bill by the Houses.

Other Bills on own affairs of a House, the Second Reading of which has already been moved, will be disposed of as though the new Rules have not been adopted, except in so far as the House concerned may by resolution determine otherwise. If the Second Reading has not yet been moved, a memorandum on the objects of the Bill or a copy of the proposed Second Reading speech by the member in charge of the Bill must be supplied to every member of the House concerned.

Mr Chairman, I move:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, it gives me pleasure to inform this House that a new political party named the Peoples Party of South Africa has been formed and that its members, whose names have been submitted to the Secretary to Parliament as well as the Speaker of Parliament and the hon the State President, will with immediate effect be members of the said new party in the House of Delegates.

This move is aimed at the paramount object of bringing stability to the House of Delegates and projecting the reputation and the image of our participation to all those who have elected us to Parliament, and to serve to the best of our ability the State, the hon the State President, the country and its people.

I appeal to all hon members to co-operate with us.

Mr Chairman, may I request the indulgence of the Chair in order to respond to that statement, this being an important event?

Order! Unfortunately I have to inform the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council that the hon member for Actonville merely requested the opportunity of reading a statement to the House and that unfortunately there cannot be any debate on it.

Mr Chairman, could I have the permission of the Chair, on behalf of the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, to make a statement?

Order! Yes, the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council may make a statement but there may be no debate on the matter. The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council may proceed.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. During the past few days my attention has been drawn by certain hon members of this House to their intention to launch a new political party. My response to that intention was that it is their democratic right, and as one knows from the history of the House of Delegates since 28 August 1984, anything is possible.

It was also brought to my attention that they wanted to improve the image of this House and my reaction to that was that I did not think anyone could have any objection in so far as that intention was concerned.

I also indicated to them that I did not view their actions in forming a new political party negatively. As I indicated to them, it is an action that may have a ripple effect, like the one we had in May last year. Actions give rise to reactions but I sincerely express the wish to them that in their decision to form a new political party they will not cut off their nose to spite their face. I say this because in the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa there is a vital provision.

This vital provision is section 39. Section 39 dealt a bitter blow to somebody on 17 September 1984. Of course, section 24 of the Constitution has a certain interpretation. I sincerely hope that I was not correct when I told some of those hon members that they might not be aware of the fact that they may be cutting off their nose to spite their face, because then the possibility exists that this event may lead us to go to the polls. [Interjections.] And sooner than we think. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council must be accorded an opportunity to make his statement.

This event may give us the opportunity to go to the polls sooner than we think.

Is this a threat?

It is not a threat.

Order! I would like to request the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council to confine himself to the statement and not to respond to the interjections of hon members.

I want to wish the new party well. As is my habit, I do not denigrate changing situations, because in the House of Delegates, as has been said, anything is possible. I do not know whether next week we might have another party formed in this House. In this House anything is possible.

It will be a celebration party.

However, I sincerely want to remind some hopefuls who are already deciding on the Cabinet, that our defence and our goal post is section 39 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.

Mr Chairman, firstly I would like to welcome the hon the Minister to this House where he is going to present his Vote for 1988. I think he is doing it for the first time in this new Chamber.

I also want to compliment the Department of Manpower, right down from the Director-General to all the heads of department for all the wonderful work which they have done over the year and the previous years. The work that they have done during 1987 must no doubt be weighed up under the different circumstances that we were confronted with in the year under review. Not only did we have unrest in the work field, but we also had a downturn in the economy and the unfortunate flood disasters which certainly did not create an easy pathway. They only made it difficult for us all.

I also want to record my sincere appreciation of the hon the State President, who is also playing an important role in this programme of training of unemployed workers in South Africa.

Presently this department is really deeply and mainly concerned with training unemployed people in order to create job opportunities. The Government wants to see that these people have work, so that they can earn a living.

One can really equate the Department of Manpower and the National Manpower Commission with one huge generating power station. From one unit one gets a current going out into all parts of the country. Some are large, some a little bit smaller. What is most important, however, is that it supplies power through thousands of small street lights that make towns so beautiful. If one had to put them out, the whole town would be enveloped in darkness. Similarly our work force is like little lights in all parts of South Africa. They are doing their little thing to brighten up this country in terms of the labour that they provide in the different areas in which they work.

We have two books in front of us. These were submitted by the National Manpower Commission. They are very comprehensive, detailed and in-depth reports of what is going on. This report is coupled with the report of the Department of Manpower which we are addressing ourselves to. I would like to quote from this book, because in this book one finds all the various activities that have taken place from time to time. I believe it is already a useful and very important book with a lot of knowledge. Many hon members in Parliament have already found it very useful, because they are able to expound to people who want to know what is happening in the field of unemployment, job opportunities and so on.

Let us firstly look at the number of persons trained at group centres. In 1985 15 750 people were trained, in 1986 12 590 and in 1987 23 038. Next we look at the number trained at private training centres. In 1985 they trained 129 759 people, in 1986, 26 347 and 1987, 110 917 people. Of course we are training a large number of people who have become unemployed through various reasons like retrenchment etc. They have now been given another opportunity perhaps to be trained in different avenues where they could qualify themselves and then be better equipped to find jobs in spheres like building, carpentry etc. This knowledge, which is gained by these people who lacked it before, gives them greater aspirations and stability in order to be self dependent. They can now use their own knowledge to excel wherever they wish.

Next we look at another area where the Department of Manpower is engaged, namely the Unemployment Insurance Fund. The following figures have been paid out during the year under review: Unemployment funds in 1987 totalled R266 508 986; illness R48 884 000; maternity R50 812 000; dependants R22 868 000. These are large sums of money and one should see how large this whole department is, how much involvement there is and how many people work to man this department. While the Unemployment Insurance Fund is called that on the one hand, it still employs thousands of people in order to carry out its task for those unfortunate people.

In the year under review certain strikes unfortunately took place in the industry. This is an unfortunate part of our work situation which, however, can be seen as fortunate for the worker who has this facility as one of his only bargaining instruments. It is certainly an adequate provision for a workman and also for unions to negotiate on behalf of their members for the maximum benefit to be derived. Sometimes we notice that these situations are abused and the poor worker, who has to earn in order to keep his family alive, is often misused and misguided for other interests. In 1986 there were 793 strikes and in 1987 there were 1 148. One can see that this is an increase and one can only hope that consensus will be found between all those who feel unhappy and who feel that they should be able to find a way to negotiate for the best deal. One appreciates the fact that there are disputes and that there are unhappy people. Many people are confused about whether they are right or wrong and the department has set up industrial courts with various departments in which certain disputes may be settled or handled. There has been a tremendous increase in this field and this only proves the fact that this facility has been well used by those involved.

One will find that the figures are as follows: There were 1 294 cases with regard to Conciliation Board applications in 1986 and in 1987 there were 2 312 cases. We believe that they are using these facilities. Much has been gained and I think more people are happier now. In the Industrial Court there were 2 042 cases in 1986 and 1987 there were 3 533 cases. I want to emphasise again that it is being used to its maximum not only for the employee but for the employer as well. Therefore as a result of this meaningful research into the unsatisfactory aspects, the unhappiness in industry, which forms a very strong pillar in the economy of this country, can be resolved satisfactorily for the benefit of all concerned.

In 1987, 258 517 people were trained. What is also very gratifying if one looks back at history …

Order! I wish to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to afford the hon member the opportunity to complete his speech.

Order! I wish to inform the hon member that his time has been extended.

Mr Chairman, I am grateful to the hon Whip of the Official Opposition.

From 1985 to 1987, 719 677 people were trained and I think that this is a magnificent piece of work, although it is regrettable that we should have this number of people unemployed. However, the fact is that it has taken care of so many people who I believe are now in a better position to look for jobs in the free market.

The department is also responsible for eight Acts of Parliament, in terms of legislation which it administers. I should like to read which ones they are because these Acts are very important and they usually serve the workmen and other people. In these Acts there are provisions which lay down how one can go about making the necessary applications or whatever the need may be. They are the Workmen’s Compensation Act (1941), the Labour Relations Act (1956), the Wage Act (1957), the Unemployment Insurance Act (1966), the Manpower Training Act (1981), the Guidance and Placement Act (1981), the Machinery and Occupational Safety Act (1983) and the Basic Conditions of Employment Act (1983). Now these are Acts that the department works with in the different areas so that one could find a way in which to handle the different issues that they may be confronted with from time to time.

This department is also divided into 18 statutory institutions such as the Industrial Court, Manpower Board, National Manpower Commission, Chief Directorate of Manpower Training and the Administration of Labour Relations and so forth. Hon members will see that we are dealing with a very huge department and the work of this department is of course very important. Not only is it important, it is also very difficult work with regard to what has to be dealt with and the type of work that it entails.

I speak under correction but I noticed in the report that this year an amount of R213 879 000 has been allocated to the Manpower Fund to carry out this work. This of course is distributed amongst 11 categories of work where these people will be involved in training many people and the administrations and other things.

I now want to come more or less to the end of what I want to say. I have tremendous appreciation and admiration for the department, particularly as far as its keen interest is concerned and here I must say we have very dedicated men in this department. This can be seen right throughout the different set-ups in the different parts of the country where they have this problem dear and near to their hearts.

One will always be assured that one will get some kind of satisfaction, for if one’s problem is not really resolved or if immediate solutions cannot be found, one can be assured that one will get some kind of comfort, guidance and encouragement so that one does not feel that this is the end of the road.

I am very grateful for this, since this certainly improves the quality of life and gives people some kind of stability and removes the frustration and other negative feelings to enable them to think right and perhaps become useful citizens of South Africa.

I want to mention this for the attention of the hon the Minister and other people so that we can look at what is still happening in spite of our efforts in trying to alleviate what I call unemployment and reducing the unemployment among our people.

The unemployment problem in the RSA has deteriorated over the past few years. School leavers are finding it extremely difficult to find jobs; matriculants are walking the streets and are becoming disillusioned. Many of them have been seeking work for the past two to three years without success. Unemployment figures as at August 1987 are as follows: 1 013 000 Blacks; 103 000 Coloureds; 31 561 Asians. These are of course very large figures and I quote them under correction, and I feel that whilst we are narrowing the gap from one side the figure seem to be increasing from the other side. We hope to be able to look into this and find out why and whether removal of influx control measures has now increased the influx of work-seekers into the urban and peri-urban areas, so that when they get here in search of work they, too, become people who are in our area and are without jobs. Probably the reason they are coming into these areas is to seek jobs, since before the influx control was removed, people were restricted to their own territories. I believe this could be one of the reasons. If it is, I would be happy, but if it is not then I think it is appropriate that we look into this matter.

I should also like to say that the number of registered unemployment among Whites, Coloureds and Asians in January 1987 was 74 369. This figure decreased by 14,7% to 63 469 in October 1987. Registered unemployment among Blacks increased by 28,5% from 49 945 in January 1987 to 64 162 in October 1987. It is among the Blacks that there are serious unemployment problems. I believe that that is of course in terms of the population ratio, since clearly the number of Black people in this country is very large.

In conclusion, I want to mention that a concerted effort should be made by the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning, Development Aid and the Ministry of Manpower to accelerate the programme of devolution of power, the small business sector, and privatisation. I believe that by doing this will certainly create more job opportunities in order that we may be able to match the population increase in terms of our growth. I hope that if this can be accelerated, these areas of unemployment could be assisted.

With these words I again wish to compliment and thank the department for the wonderful work it is doing. May the new year be a brighter one and I hope that a greater effort can be made so that we may overcome these problems that face us.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure for me to be making a contribution to the Vote of my colleague the hon the Minister of Manpower. I fully understand that the task of my hon colleague and his Ministry is not an easy one, particularly in relation to job opportunities for the people of the Republic of South Africa.

Keeping in mind the demographic situation of the population, the number of job seekers in South Africa increases annually. In addition to those presently unemployed, my hon colleague has the added responsibility of looking into the future and making provision for the millions of people who enter the job market every year. The hon the Minister and his Ministry need to be congratulated on the manner in which they address the problems that arise every year.

After the publication of the Wiehahn Report a free hand was given to the work force to mobilise themselves and to create unions. As a result of this, the number of workers’ unions has greatly increased in South Africa. This increase means that employers have to face another kind of problem today. Nowadays there is a fight between the unions to be recognised by the employers. It seems as though the unions themselves have vested interests. One union vies with another to get as many members as possible and the employer has to recognise these contesting unions. In the process demands are made on the employers to increase the wages and salaries of the employees and some of the employers find it extremely difficult to meet these demands.

When the union officials interfere with a happy work force in their work place the employer is in a difficult situation. Workers from the floor are intimidated and those who do not want to join in a strike find themselves in a vulnerable position with regard to these agitators. I once again want to make a special plea to my hon colleague that we need legislation to discourage unnecessary attacks on those employees who through their own good will wish to continue with their work without suffering any harassment whatsoever. This is a very serious situation. Workers are afraid to come to work when they are subjected to aggressive attacks. I thought I wanted to use this opportunity to draw my hon colleague’s attention to this matter.

While I am on the topic of manpower, I want to say that it is also evident in this House. Each one of us is a worker. When the hon the leader of the new party, the Peoples Party of South Africa, took the opportunity of announcing the formation of the new party and its hon members, there were no selfish intentions involved. What was needed was the removal of the kind of allegations that are made in this House from time to time. [Interjections.] That is why we of the Peoples Party of South Africa took this step. [Interjections.]

When I refer to manpower I also want to say that the hon member for Brickfield should be the minister of “hear, hear”. [Interjections.]

I want to say that the Peoples Party of South Africa has no motive whatsoever for self-gain or self-esteem, or any other selfish motive. We stand by this House, and my hon leader has asked for co-operation. [Interjections.] What is more, I want to say for the purposes of the record that one will find that people of mettle, stability and reputation from this side of the House have gone over to the Peoples Party of South Africa, and in fairness to them I need to read their names.

The names of the hon members concerned are as follows: Mr A E Lambat, the hon member for Actonville; Mr K Ramduth, the hon the Minister of Education and Culture, who is the hon member for Clare Estate; Mr R Bhana, the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare, who is the hon member for Malabar; the hon the Chairman of the House, Mr S Abram Mayet; a live wire hon member in this House and a highly esteemed member of the Isipingo constituency, Mr N E Khan, the hon member for Isipingo; another stalwart who formed the National Peoples Party and through whose efforts the National Peoples Party enjoys recognition in this country today, a man who is associated with and who has become the pro tern secretary of the Peoples Party of South Africa, the hon member Mr M Thaver; another hon member who, by his very performance in this House, has shown himself to be above any self-interest and a man of high discipline, Mr Y I Seedat; another hon member who is a worker and who is held in high esteem and is in the Cabinet of the State as Deputy Minister of Environment Affairs as well as being Deputy Minister of Local Government and Agriculture in this House, the hon Mr S Pachai; another hon member whose calibre no one in this House could doubt in his dedication to serve the people, namely no less a man than Mr N Jumuna, the hon member for North Coast. [Interjections.]

To continue, there is yours truly, who does not look at anything but the interests of South Africa and all its peoples, and one of those who polled over 35% during the last elections. I am referring to myself as the representative of the constituency of Verulam. Having said that … [Interjections.] I am sorry, Mr Chairman, last but not least, a man who has the largest constituency in the Republic of South Africa and who uses helicopters to do his work, a man of force, Mr I C Dasoo, the hon member for North Western Transvaal. [Interjections.]

I again want to repeat that a fair opportunity has been given in this House for good, clean administration, and this is what we are looking for. [Interjections.] On behalf of my leader I want to say that we have entered into a working arrangement with Solidarity so that we shall have the majority in this House supporting those hon members whom they feel are worthy of membership on the Ministers’ Council. [Interjections.]

Section 39 will not put fear into the hearts of these members. [Interjections.] I declared the day I came into Parliament that if we were challenged at all, we would be prepared to go to the voters and to find our credibility in our electorate. [Interjections.]

Having said that, Mr Chairman, I need to thank you. I want to ask the forbearance of my hon colleague for having had to make this statement here, but I do want to repeat this. [Interjections.] I have personally enjoyed good relations, for which I am held very much in envy, with the hon the Minister of Manpower and of Public Works, other hon Ministers in the general Cabinet and hon members in this House. I value that and my contributions have always been, not for self-gain, but in the interests of the hon the State President and our country, South Africa. We are here for our country and if people are pointing fingers at what is allegedly being done, it is our rightful duty to put ourselves aboveboard so that we can come out clean. [Interjections.]

Order! I would like silence in this House. Does the hon member for Stanger have a question?

I am just making way for the hon members who are crossing the floor, Mr Chairman. Forgive me for that. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, it is indeed ironic, while we are debating the Vote: Manpower in this House, that labour also pays some reward. I think I must compliment those hon members who have taken a brave decision this afternoon to relinquish their association with the ruling party, to constitute themselves into a new party and to cross the floor in the interests of the Indian community and the larger cause of our country.

I merely want to say that for a long time now accusations have been levelled in this House at the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and at the general functioning of certain ministries. Calls have been made for a commission of enquiry so that the air can be cleared and no guilt rest on anybody’s head. Unfortunately, a reasonable request has met with no answers. For some period now it has been hanging in the air. Therefore I believe this move is welcome and I want to extend my congratulations to these colleagues who have joined us on this side of the House. Hopefully the realities of the situation will be recognised by the authorities and in due course we can execute our work in the interest of the community and in a fashion where we will be accountable to the people who elected us and put us in this office.

Turning to the item on the agenda this afternoon, namely the Vote: Manpower, I want to take this opportunity to pay tribute and express my appreciation to the hon the Minister’s department and all its officials for the commendable work they have done in implementing the programme identified by the hon the State President, namely to accelerate the pace of training, so that many people who are unfortunately out of work can be placed in some form of employment to earn an honest living. I think the records speak for themselves, and I would be failing in my duty this afternoon if I did not, through the hon the Minister, express to him and his colleagues and officials our deep appreciation for what has been done.

We understand that unemployed people of any race are a burden on society and a problem which we have to address, because they have to look after families, irrespective of whether they are Black, White or Brown. When a man has a job, whatever that job may be, and an income, he has honour and his family has self-respect. This is what the department has done in their great effort which they have been able to launch and which has, I believe, succeeded beyond all expectations. For that I want to commend the hon the Minister and his officials.

Mr Chairman, allow me to congratulate the hon the Minister of Manpower and of Public Works for his keen interest in assisting those persons who are unemployed through no fault of their own, but because of the economic downturn, which was induced through events in South Africa such as political turmoil, the devaluation of the rand, which has diminished confidence, and social unrest in the past few years. These have a direct bearing on the economy.

The rising population has had adverse consequences for social welfare and the quality of life. I also include the rising population on the opposition side of this House!

I want to place on record that in 1987 the Department of Manpower provided funds for a special job creation programme in Natal, and allocated R8,4 million for the local authorities project under the auspices of the Natal Provincial Administration. The department also allocated an amount of R2 million to the House of Delegates for projects by the Indian community, and an amount of R2,65 million for special projects in KwaZulu, and R0,5 million for trust land projects, administered by the Department of Development Aid.

In addition to these allocations, an amount of R3,2 million was allocated for projects by the private sector. This was supervised by the Department of Manpower. These projects provided jobs for between 30 000 and 40 000 persons per day. I hope and trust that the hon the Minister will repeat last year’s performance this year. This has brought great relief to unemployed persons, especially the poorer section of the community. This is something that I and other hon members on this side of the House applaud.

I would like the hon the Minister to consider that each and every worker, regardless of sex, colour or creed, should be accommodated in and committed to a pension fund, and his contribution should be transferable from one company to another. This contribution should be left intact until the contributor reaches retirement age. This provision will go a long way to alleviate the worker’s financial dilemma in his twilight years.

At present the lower income group is finding it difficult to subsist in the event of the breadwinner’s sudden demise. Although the Department of Health Services and Welfare will ultimately assist by way of a maintenance grant, the unfortunate next of kin will have to endure great hardship.

There is another point that I want to bring to the hon the Minister’s attention. I want him to consider very carefully the question of decentralising the trade test centres. To the best of my knowledge, trainees throughout the Republic have to go to Olifantsfontein to undergo trade tests of proficiency. It is needless to mention the frustrations and difficulties experienced by these trainees who travel from Cape Town or Durban to Johannesburg. In view of this, I will appreciate it if the hon the Minister could establish trade test centres in each province.

I would also like to bring to the hon the Minister’s attention the training centre at Pinetown in Natal. Here I must congratulate the gentlemen for carrying out a fine piece of work in the training of unemployed people. We also mentioned this last year. We hope that they will keep up their good work.

Finally, I want to take this opportunity to thank the Director-General and his staff for the very fine report that they have produced.

Mr Chairman, I am very pleased that on this historic occasion we have the privilege of having the hon the Minister of Manpower to witness a very important happening in this House. A number of people have committed themselves as public representatives. They have felt that they have come here to serve not only their cause, but the cause of the country and the people. They have now joined forces with the group that sits on this side to fight the Government of the day to better the people of South Africa generally, irrespective of their colour or creed.

It has never been the policy of the opposition in this House to fight only for the Indian people simply because we are Indians and we represent them. We have fought for the Whites, Coloureds, Indians and Blacks. We will go on honouring our role in this House, and in Parliament generally.

The Department of Manpower has a very important role to play in the stability of this country. To be able to see progress in this country we have to have a very well-disciplined workforce. The purpose of the Department of Manpower is to enforce this and to see to it at all times that the labour force in this country meets the requirements of both the employer and the employees. I take it that the department itself from time to time finds ways and means to bring about a good relationship between the worker and the employer. In this direction I would like to compliment the hon the Minister and his department for having recently brought out the Labour Relations Bill, a wonderful Bill which amends the previous Act to bring about a far better type of system for the benefit of the country as a whole. This Bill has just been passed by the standing committee, where it was approved unanimously. It is now with the department and I take it that very shortly, before the end of this session of Parliament, it will be brought before the House for consideration.

This Bill raises great expectations in that it is designed to bring about an orderly manner of participation. I think that once this Bill has gone through Parliament it will most certainly bring about a greater measure of stability than we have experienced in the past. What we have seen last year and the year before, was mostly caused by dissatisfaction both on the part of the employer and the employee. This Bill makes provision for a special labour appeal court where people will have the right to expound their feelings with the least amount of difficulties by way of time as well as money.

I have very limited time in this debate, but I would like to address the hon the Minister and his departmental heads on a few very delicate and sensitive issues. I have had the privilege of meeting the hon the Minister and certain representatives of the Agricultural Union, who look after the needs of this country as far as the food supply is concerned. We have spoken to their delegates, whom we met in the hon the Minister’s office a few days ago.

We sat down and discussed at length certain problems that are faced in connection with the farm workers. The situation there is a problem which has been talked about for many years, yet a solution has not been found. I am pleased to report and to inform this House, that a very fruitful meeting did take place under the chairmanship of the hon the Minister, where we have had some measure of joy from the SA Agricultural Union by their giving us the assurance that they are addressing this problem. It is a serious problem in their view as well.

I am sure that the hon the Minister’s initiative in bringing in the SA Agricultural Union to meet members of the standing committee to play a very important role, is most certainly going to address this very serious problem which has been on the minds of the people. It is something we all have to accept, because these people are unfortunately in no way accommodated as far as the Labour Relations Act is concerned. Not even the basic conditions of employment cover the farm worker, nor does the Wage Act. They do have recourse to common law, but we would like them to have a greater opportunity of airing their views if there should be any problems or if they are dissatisfied.

I do hope that the hon the Minister will pursue this matter and not leave it as it stands at present, because it is his problem. He should address it in the most satisfactory manner, not only to please the farm labourers, but also to please those who represent the farm workers. It is indeed a burning issue.

Mr Chairman, I crave your indulgence. I was going to give notice that I was going to speak in this debate, but may I come in at this stage?

Order! The hon member for Stanger may continue.

Mr Chairman, before I get down to the issues in this debate I just want to give my support to the sentiments that were expressed earlier and congratulate those people who have taken this courageous decision this afternoon.

This Manpower Budget will go down in the annals of the history of South Africa as the budget Vote in the House of Delegates that brought about change for the better as regards South Africa and greater productivity of South Africa. This productivity might even help—I am looking at the hon the Minister of Finance—the inflation that he is always fighting.

For how long? They are a lot of grasshoppers!

Mr Chairman, if we have people like the hon member who is yelling over there, we will never be able to fight inflation. [Interjections.]

Order! Will the hon member for Brickfield rise. Who did he refer to as grasshoppers?

Nobody in particular, Sir. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I feel sorry for the hon member. He is a little confused.

On this historical occasion I want to state that I do not want constitutional blockages here. I see on the Order Paper that there is a notice of motion which implicates certain people. I do not want to cause an embarrassment here, but when there was a notice of motion moved by the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council who is a de facto chairman in this Chamber, he got away with trivialities. On such issues as a cheque in Tongaat he is able to get a commission of inquiry within 24 hours. Here we have a situation—and I am glad that the hon the Minister of Finance is here—where property was acquired from the State for R34 000 by an individual and it is alleged that that property is intended to be sold back to the State for R400 000. That is on the Order Paper, yet what happens? There is no precedent for that type of matter.

For how long can we in this House tolerate that kind of nonsense. We are sitting here as trustees of public funds.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I want to say that that matter is sub judice and cannot be debated. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I shall not take any questions from the hon member over there. I do not think he understands what I am talking about. He has a problem with comprehension. I am talking about the Order Paper. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I do not know whether I can put this as a point of order or as a question. [Interjections.]

Order! Does the hon member want to ask a question?

Yes, Sir.

Mr Chairman, I shall take his question.

Mr Chairman, I just want the hon member for Stanger to know that we are not deviating from the Constitution. There has been an agreement …

Order! Is that a question?

Yes, I want to ask whether there was an agreement between the Chief Whip of Parliament and the Whips of the different Houses that no private member’s motions be discussed from a certain date onwards. That is all I want to clarify.

Mr Chairman, the hon the Leader of the House has exposed himself. He does not seem to understand what I am talking about. I am talking about a serious allegation that has been made here which is an indictment against the hon members of this House. This indictment must be cleared in the interest of the community. I am not trying to move a private member’s motion of a trivial nature such as those moved by his party. I am talking about an indictment against hon members of this House.

This deals with the appointment of a select committee. Why did they appoint a select committee against the hon member for Stanger? Did the hon Leader not agree to that being on the Order Paper? Why did he not agree to this one? He must answer to this House. What is his defence for not having this on the Order Paper? He is the Leader of the House, after all. It is only today that we had an announcement that new Rules will come into being, but up to that moment that hon member was the Leader of the House and is a de facto or otherwise Leader of this House.

Order! Will the hon member please come back to the Vote.

Yes, Sir. I am talking about disposing of State land which falls under the Vote. The evaluation and disposal of State land is part of the Vote and it is in the report.

Order! The hon member may continue.

I am trying to bring it to the attention of the hon the Minister that a valuation of some sort must have been done to come to the figure of R34 000. It is now alleged on the Order Paper that that land was resold to the State for R400 000.

Perhaps that was underpriced and a wrong valuation was done, but whatever the case, somebody has been enriched. That is the allegation. I believe that a call for a select committee to investigate this particular issue is important for the image of this House. We speak about reform; how can reform in this country progress positively when it is clouded by allegations of corruption? It can never progress.

While the issue is being raised here, I also wish to make it known that we must not hide behind constitutional issues, since the Constitution, as a mechanism, blocks what I believe to be a democratic decision on the part of the people. I believe we should not have moved a vote of no confidence in the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council per se. I want to make it quite clear that the reason for this is to avoid embarrassment and to allow the honourable thing to take place in an honourable way. However, if people want to insist that that is the way it must be done then they are asking us to do things in a manner which goes against our grain, since we are honourable and we want to do things in an honourable way. That has been my attitude.

I also wish to say on this occasion, whilst I am speaking to this Vote, that with regard to the Report on Public Works and Land Affairs I want to refer hon members to the whole section on page 46. Within the constraints of the time available to me I cannot go through all the details, but I want to refer hon members to this particular section: Disposal of State Land.

Last year I raised the issue in this House. I was hoping that the hon the Minister of Local Government and Own Affairs would have answered that question; perhaps he has some answers for us today. I have a time constraint; and I am grateful to the hon Whip for being tolerant.

I want to say that there is land comprising 5 000 hectares which has been allocated for farming purposes between 1982 and 1987. The Indian community lost 20 000 hectares of land. Is it not fair that the Indian community should have been accommodated when this State land was made available? I do not believe in the Group Areas Act, but while we have that particular constraint within those confines, the Indian community should have been accommodated. I want to know how much of this land has in fact been allocated to the Indian community, if any. I have heard about a hundred odd hectares being bandied about last year, and there were a hundred hectares on lease this year. That is about all that I have heard about. However, we lost 20 000 hectares of land, and I do not believe we got much out of this lot.

As regards valuation, I want to bring to the notice of the hon the Minister that whilst he administers the Valuers’ Act, and is responsible for valuation in more ways than one, that the whole system of valuation in this country needs to be overhauled. I believe that the valuation system in this country is influenced on racial lines, because market forces—the supply and demand situation—determine value. Consequently, within one local authority area there are different values because of group area proclamations and areas being declared in terms of the Group Areas Act. In those areas where the demand is high, the values get higher. Values are obliged, in terms of the Act, and in terms of the law to determine the values in terms of market value. I am also registered with the Council for Valuers, so I know what I am talking about.

I believe that one needs to examine the possibility of a complete new approach for the purposes of rating, since if valuers are used for rating purposes, one has this anomalous situation that because people of colour are paying higher prices for land, they are obliged to pay more by way of rates and taxes.

We in this House have been appealing by way of private members’ motions and other opportunities for the Government to do something to remedy this anomalous situation.

With those remarks, I conclude. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, first of all permit me to say that I always enjoy operating in this House; I always feel very much at home, and the hon members of this House usually maintain a very high standard of debate.

Today I was one of the innocent bystanders. [Interjections.] I am glad, however, that I witnessed what happened here this afternoon. It seems to be a dramatic turn of events in this House. I do not want to take sides because I have friends on both sides of the House. All that I want to say is that I wish this House will be able to maintain the efficient administration of their own affairs. I wish them luck regardless of the governing party in this House. [Interjections.]

I now come to the hon member for Mariannhill. He complimented the hon the State President and the Department of Manpower for the initiative taken in the field of training. I want to convey my sincere thanks to this hon member for his kind words regarding the training of people. Virtually every hon member who spoke in this debate made mention of the training efforts of the Department of Manpower. I can give hon members the assurance that training is virtually the highest priority in the Department of Manpower.

During the previous financial year more than 50% of the Budget of the department was allocated to training while 51% was allocated to training in the present financial year. We achieved spectacular results in the training of people. Up to the present, virtually 720 000 unemployed people have been trained by this department.

I have seen people change dramatically in a period of three weeks. An unemployed man has no hope, no self-confidence and no self-respect. In short, he is in a desperate state. Such a man is changed within a period of three weeks into a positive individual who has a certificate to prove that he has been trained and who is looking for work. It makes a big difference to people. The great success of this scheme is that many of the trained people become entrepreneurs afterwards. Some start their own little businesses of repair work, painting, building and many other trades.

During the past Rand Easter Show we had hall number 10—it is a very big hall—filled with these people who brought their products there to show them to the public. I can tell hon members that some of them sold their production for the next two years there. Many people visited their exhibitions and it was a tremendous success. I have been informed that some of these businesses received orders of up to R2 million.

The hon member mentioned the group training centres. They are doing a splendid job and I think it is money well spent. Whatever profits they make are used to finance further training. The hon member also mentioned the Unemployment Insurance Fund. I agree with the hon member that this fund helped many people in South Africa through the very difficult period of the last two and a half years. Fortunately the fund will now receive higher contributions from both employers and employees and it is in a sound financial state. I am glad to be able to tell this House that the fund now has approximately R3 million in reserve which is the highest figure that it has ever stood at.

The hon member for Mariannhill also mentioned strikes. He mentioned the fact that they were increasing in frequency and expressed the hope that further disputes would be settled by way of negotiations instead of strikes. I share his views on this issue. I think we are still going through a sort of evolutionary period or learning period and I am very hopeful on account of the fact that as more and more of the registered trade unions are gaining more and more experience, they are becoming more responsible.

The hon member also mentioned the question of unemployment and I agree with him that that is one of the serious problems facing South Africa. In South Africa we have structural unemployment as well as cyclical unemployment. The structural unemployment in South Africa is due to the fact that the population growth rate outstrips the economic development of the country and the only real solution to this problem is a twofold one, namely-firstly to maintain the highest possible growth rate, taking into account our natural and other resources, and secondly to curb the rate of increase of the population. Therefore our population development programme is to my mind one of the most important programmes in this country.

The hon the Minister of the Budget also referred to the question of job creation. He also mentioned the problem of the high population growth rate. I must say that fortunately the population development programme is showing very positive results in some areas and one hopes that those positive trends will continue in the future. On the other hand, let us hope that we shall be able to increase our growth rate in the years ahead in order to create more jobs for people entering the labour market.

The hon the Minister of the Budget also mentioned the question of intimidation and said that we must protect those workers who want to work against intimidation during strikes. I can give the hon the Minister the assurance that the whole question of the Intimidation Act and intimidation, not only in the workplace but in other areas as well, is at this point in time being very seriously considered by a Cabinet Committee and their officials. This question is receiving attention at the highest level.

I must say that although we have a very strong Intimidation Act, the problem involved in curbing intimidation is the problem of witnesses. People are too afraid, for fear of intimidation, to give evidence in a court of law against an intimidator. That whole issue is now being reconsidered and I hope that my colleague, the hon the Minister of Justice, will come forward at some time or another with an Act that will enable us to solve this problem.

I now want to come to the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition. He also thanked the department, the hon the State President and me for our training efforts and for the job creation programmes. An interesting figure is that up to the end of last year 80 million man-days had been worked under these job creation programmes.

The hon member for Chatsworth Central made the point that job creation projects brought relief to the poor section of the community and he also thanked us for our efforts in that regard.

The hon member also mentioned that pensions should be transferable from one employer to another whenever an employee leaves the employment of one employer and moves to another one.

This whole question is being investigated at the moment by the HSRC and they are considering ways and means of providing affordable pension for all the people of the country.

The hon member also asked me to decentralise the trade testing from Olifantsfontein to other areas. I can inform him that the draft Training Bill which is being published for comments actually recommends this and decentralised trade testing will in future take place all over the country. I think that will be more convenient for the people undergoing the tests and for the employers, who in some cases possess very good testing facilities at their various factories.

The hon member for Havenside said that we must have a. disciplined labour force and that there must be good relations between employers and employees. I wholeheartedly agree with him. I think the secret lies in a very essential aspect for the maintenance of good labour relations, namely the communication between employers and employees. There must be regular communication and the employer must have his ear to the ground. Whenever something develops which might be detrimental to industrial peace, he must act timeously, before trouble starts.

The hon member also recommended the amendments to the Labour Relations Bill, which will come before Parliament in a couple of days’ time. With a view to that I will not comment on the amendments to the Labour Relations Act, but I can only say, in general, that I think those amendments constitute an improvement to the present Labour Relations Act.

The hon member also thanked me for the discussions I had with hon members of this House and the House of Representatives on one occasion, and at a meeting where I chaired a meeting between them and the South African Agricultural Union. I want to thank hon members for their very responsible attitude and the responsible way in which they discussed their problems and the problems of their constituents on the farms. On the other hand, I must also thank the South African Agricultural Union for its attitude and the way in which they conducted the discussions. I am very optimistic. I think that some success will be achieved through these discussions and I hope that the good spirit which has now been established will be maintained and that the future will be built on this relationship.

The hon member for Stanger said that this is a historical debate. As I have said, I was only an innocent bystander. Fortunately, I was not harmed in any way …

Just shocked.

I was just shocked, yes. Certain questions were asked about my department’s role in the evaluation of land. We are a service department and we do not do the evaluation of land for all departments. There are only certain departments for which we act. However, I can tell the hon member that we will look into the relevant legislation, because we think it is about time that certain aspects of that Act are addressed. I do not have the details with me here today, but the hon member is welcome to table a question and I will then reply to his specific question.

With these words I want to conclude. I again want to thank hon members for their participation and for the contribution they made towards this historical debate. I wish this House luck in future.

Votes agreed to.

Vote No 20—“Finance”:

Mr Chairman, it is indeed a privilege for me to address this House after the many events that have taken place. I am not talking about the political events that have taken place, but about the economic events that have taken place during the last few days. In today’s papers one can read the headlines—Government puts curbs on the economy; bid to slow down rampant consumer demand, debtor’s allowance change alarms retailers; HP deposit rates now 20%; deposits for rentals needed; money squeeze, etcetera. This is what all the papers said. However, I want to tell the hon the Minister that I had already prepared my speech yesterday before these announcements were made. I may be out of tune when I say the things that I want to say this afternoon!

I want to come back to the events that I have mentioned, such as the raising of the bank rate by 1%. This will mean that prime rates will now be 15%. This will result in the tightening of instalment credit, bringing leasing transactions also into the ambit of legislation governing credit extensions and phasing out of debtors’ allowances for general sales tax purposes. It will also result in the raising of the level for fringe benefits on vehicles, which will affect all of us. We have also seen a significant drop in the rand exchange value over the last few days.

At the same time, a few weeks ago we welcomed the hon the State President’s call for curbing inflation. The hon the Minister, during his Budget speech, called for a wage freeze in the public sector. However, now we see that the Government is threatening to use certain Acts as far as the wage freeze is concerned. The hon the State President has denied this, but it was quoted in the Press. We also know that there is a Bill before us, namely the Harmful Business Practices Control Bill. The private sector has not exactly welcomed this, but this Bill is aptly named. It is indeed a very harmful practice in economic terms for the Government to try and run the economy. This makes a mockery of our contention that this is a free economy.

It is indeed very difficult in our country today to be a businessman. One has to contend with both foreign and local pressure—foreign pressure in the form of sanctions from all quarters. Businessmen have to apply various means in order to obtain foreign goods and foreign markets. Several high-powered entrepreneurs spend most of their precious time devising means of busting sanctions. Instead of making things easier for our businessmen, the Government in recent years has made it very difficult. Let us consider the following.

First there was the introduction of GST in 1978, which required business people to act as tax collectors for the Government. Now we have the pending introduction of value added tax. Again businessmen will be required to familiarise themselves with the new tax system and act as collecting agents for the Government. The additional burden on businessmen is enormous. This is more disturbing if one considers that the Government is trying to encourage small business on the other hand.

Last year saw the introduction of regional services council levies. Monthly returns have to be submitted by businessmen, imposing further administrative work on them.

The Margo Commission has recommended further changes to the tax system. Although several of these changes attempt to simplify the tax system, established business practices will have to be amended to cater for such changes. The pending introduction of minimum tax on companies, the MTC, is of a reactive nature. The uncertainties surrounding its implication have created tremendous concern in business circles. Unlike the Government, most major companies also operate according to what they call five-year strategic plans. The detailed plans include cashflow forecasts and other business expectations. This tax will therefore impose a tremendous burden on existing plans, thereby fuelling the impact of inflation.

We now come to the shortage of skilled and professional labour. Due to the immigration of several professionals, several businesses have been forced to increase the salaries of such people so as to remain competitive and to attract these professional people. The Government’s latest attempt to force the private sector to freeze wages will provide these professionals with the perfect excuse to leave the country. Furthermore, labour unions will fight the attempt to freeze wages, which could cause further unrest. This is happening just when it appears that the state of emergency has succeeded in reducing the number of incidents of violent unrest. I therefore implore the hon the Minister to prevent this further attempt to restrict free enterprise in this country.

I would also like to take the opportunity to thank the senior staff of the Department of Finance for their devotion and hard work. This department has very few qualified professionals, which is the major reason for those few shortcomings it has. The hon the Minister should attempt to attract more qualified people to his department. The recruitment of chartered accountants from the Defence Force has proved very successful. These people have succeeded in collecting a great deal of additional revenue for the State due to their expertise. It is therefore suggested that the hon the Minister attract more chartered accountants for the full-time benefit of his department, rather than having them serving only for a temporary period in lieu of military service.

The Margo Commission has found that the cost of collecting State revenue as a percentage of revenue collected, is very low compared to other countries in the Western world. The Government should therefore be prepared to spend more money to collect more. One should bear in mind that the private sector employs highly-skilled and professional consultants on tax matters. The staff of the Department of Finance has to contend with these professional consultants and often come off second-best due to lack of experience and knowledge.

The high rate of taxation has unfortunately led to a very low morality as far as tax matters are concerned. As a result, several companies and individuals do their best to avoid and often evade tax. Several of these companies and individuals carry on undetected tax evasion due to the low calibre of the staff in the department. I think that the hon the Minister has lately addressed this particular question and he has said that he will bring a new legislation if he finds that people are trying to evade tax by any means.

I would like to return to the political, economic and social aspirations of South Africa’s people, which can not be accommodated unless the Government takes further important steps along the path of reform. Included in such measures would be the opening of all business areas for occupation and ownership by people of all races, as well as the removal of restrictions which inhibit the ownership and occupation of land for residential purposes in accordance with local circumstances. In this regard a motion was adopted by Assocom at their national congress in 1986. The main question however, still remains whether for political or economic reasons the State’s share of the GDP, or gross domestic product, is reduced in the years ahead. This requires the hon the State President’s National Priorities Committee to play a very active role in determining spending priorities.

I now pose the question whether the budget will provide the stimulus needed in order to deal with the question of job creation and improving the quality of life. My answer is that the creation of employment opportunities and improvement of economic growth for the present calendar year have been forecast at about 30%. This figure is probably on the high side.

Given the balance of payment and inflation constraints the Budget package must be seen as neutral. It was designed to give momentum to growth. However, it is insufficient to meet the growing employment needs of the country. Although fixed investments have increased, this remains at a weak level. Furthermore, increased company tax together with substantial increases in taxes for life assurance must lead to reduced savings, with a negative effect upon investment. It is not possible to qualify the magnitude of this impact.

On the question of growth, we cannot identify a particular sector for attention nor single out a section for specific promotion. What is needed is balanced growth with no one sector being developed at the expense of another sector.

Order! I wish to inform the hon member that his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to afford the hon member an opportunity to complete his speech.

Order! The hon member’s time has been extended.

Thank you, Mr Chairman, I shall not be a minute longer. I was talking about not singling out a specific section for promoting growth in. What is needed is balanced growth with no one sector being developed at the expense of another sector. Of far greater importance is the need to improve productivity in all sectors. It is most important to promote business confidence.

I see certain dangers in privatisation where monopolies are switched from the State to the private sector. Privatisation must be seen as an attempt to introduce market forces to those areas of the public sector that has traditionally been seen as the preserve of centralised co-ordination and control. I believe that privatisation offers a better future for South Africa and State corporations. The reasons given for privatisation of activities are less important than the way in which it is done.

Mr Chairman, I had a longer speech but I have been told that my time has been curtailed. With these few words I want to support the Vote of the Minister’s Department of Finance.

Mr Chairman, in this committee stage of the Budget I should like to make a few observations. Firstly, I should like to compliment the authorities in the financial departments for coaxing the economy along and building up confidence in the economy.

We now notice that the economy has started heating up and we have to make sure that timeous action is taken to ensure that this does not get out of hand or that it overheats. That will result in high interest rates and of course confidence will start crumbling.

We have to watch imports, which I think is the most important factor as far as our balance of payments is concerned, and of course our exports should be encouraged. We need a sound balance of payments.

With regard to inflation, I notice that when the Governor of the Reserve Bank addressed Afrikaans businessmen in Cape Town on 22 April he said, and I quote:

I do not think that we will ever get into a situation where we will have prosperity and high blood-pressure at the same time.

I must at this point recognise that after all the ills of the past, very tight reins are being kept on the money supply, the inflation and interest rates. In other words, we are policing our economy in such a way that nothing gets out of hand which would oblige us to give it very large doses of medicine to bring it back to life. That is a very encouraging system and I think when one learns from one’s past mistakes it is not possible to repeat them.

I spoke on the Budget when it was presented and I do not want to take up too much time as we have a time constraint. I support the Committee Stage of the Bill.

Mr Chairman, it is always a pleasure for me to contribute to the debate on the Vote of my colleague, the hon the Minister of Finance. I wish to echo the sentiments and altruistic words of the hon member for Southern Natal, who said that under the care of the hon the Minister of Finance our finances are in good hands, and indeed, they are looking bright. It is his pronouncements that have brought the return of an escalation in economic activity in this country. This is indeed a feather in the cap of the hon the Minister and his ministry as regards the work they are doing in the interests of South Africa. I just want to say that experience shows economists that up to certain levels, an economic boom is a good thing. As was expounded by the Governor of the Reserve Bank, Dr De Kock, we do not want to go back, in a boom period, to a situation where it would be retrogressive in relation to our economy.

Having said that, I want to assure the hon the Minister of Finance that in this House, even though some of us in this House have an opposition role in the situation of party versus party, we are always pragmatic and practical in the sense we owe South Africa, the country of our birth, our best. In the process we should not look as unhappily as some members do at the issue of: “What is in it for me to participate at the highest level in the country?” It is my appeal to my colleague the hon the Minister of Finance who controls the finances and allocates his funds to the various ministries that, when overtures are made in the name of politics then that particular administration or ministry needs to be very careful in the request that is made to the various ministers. Here I am referring particularly to the fact that within and outside this House carrots have been dangled before hon members of this House, in the following terms: “There may be a Deputy Ministership going, so therefore please stay with me, since by doing so you may benefit.” This is the kind of carrot-dangling that is going on.

The Government is committed to the curbing of unnecessary expenditure. When I as a Minister in the Ministers’ Council realise that my duties do not warrant a Deputy Minister in my department or in my ministry, then I must not ask for a Deputy Minister simply to satisfy political aspirations.

Therefore I should like to make a plea to my colleague, and through him, to his colleagues in the Commission for Administration, that this particular House does not need any deputy ministers; in any event, not at this stage.

Mr Chairman, I want to enter this debate briefly to recognise that over the past two years, we have had financial discipline in this country. I believe the hon the Minister must be complimented by what he has been able to achieve in both monetary and fiscal terms. Unfortunately, however, when things get out of hand, they get out of hand far too rapidly. I know that the availability of easy money, more particularly for consumer spending, is, like the lack of productivity in our country, one of the major ills of our country.

One of the major ills of South Africa is the lack of productivity, which has a bearing on the cost structure of everything. Together with that we have the demand for consumer credit which has to be arrested by the increase in interest rates. Interest rates have gone up by several percent during the past six months or so. This also has an effect on small businesses.

I want to refer briefly to that subject for a moment. People who start up their own small businesses invariably have to purchase a van or some kind of vehicle and they have to obtain equipment. This is normally done on a lease basis. A rise from 12% to 15% or 16% in the interest rate certainly has a bearing on the ability of that business to survive. People entering the business world for the first time—and small businessmen in particular—face enormous difficulties. Often what little they put in by way of capital can be lost and they become disillusioned and dispirited people, who will move away from the opportunities which they thought would propel them into the business world.

I want to appeal to the hon the Minister that we should not make money available in a way that, instead of helping people, we hurt them. I believe that to extend a loan of 120% to a person who wants to buy a house is giving that man an opportunity to go to the wall. It is suddenly possible for somebody who previously had no interest in owning a home to now take it on because no commitment is asked from him. Such a person can then take a chance and try to make a profit of R20 000 or R30 000 by selling that property again. I believe that people must prove that they desire a home of their own so that they will not merely wait for an opportunity to make a quick profit.

I believe the banks and the building societies have done a commendable job in making it possible for many to purchase a home who would otherwise not have had the opportunity. However, the process must be that of helping somebody who is prepared to help himself. People must not be helped to get into trouble.

Mr Chairman, I wish to thank hon members on both sides for the explicit and implicit support of this Vote. I also wish to thank hon members for their participation, brief though it may have been, in what is a particularly important phase in our economic development.

If I have to summarize what we are trying to do with the measures that we announced yesterday, I can do it best by saying that we are undertaking a mild mopping-up operation of easy credit. I think it is very important to emphasize that we are not only relying on the rise in interest rates per se to eventually curb demand by the public, particularly private consumption expenditure. What I am trying to say, is that the package was designed in such a way that the consumer must get the message not only through higher costs but that the banks should also get the message that they must be far more choosy and strict in allowing credit. The accommodation available for banks at the Reserve Bank is on much stricter lines than ever before. One particular condition for allowing accommodation is terribly important and that is that if a bank persists in overstepping its mark it will have to pay a punitive interest rate which increases from day to day. I think once the banks realise that the too liberal granting of credit will start to reflect very adversely on their profit statements, then the message will sink in. I trust that it will do so pretty early.

It is also very important that the message should come through to the public at large. In 1983-84 the marginal increases in interest rates were discounted by the public as being merely a mild rise in costs. This had rather tragic results in many instances, not only in households, but with regard to the economy at large.

They said: “Okay, sweetheart, we will not have meat four times a week; we will now have meat twice a week, but we must still buy this particular item and we must save a little bit of money elsewhere in order to afford the monthly instalments.” The message is clear that credit purchasing is now out of season and is not merely to be discounted in terms of a higher cost. The acceptability in the household of credit purchases must therefore be curbed and not merely discounted or translated into an acceptance that we are now paying more. Therefore, the person who now wishes to buy an item of durable goods must save more for the deposit to begin with and must make sure that he will be able to afford the instalments.

As to the person with cash, we have no message for him other than: “Go ahead and buy it because you have saved up for it.” However, as far as the person who must buy on credit is concerned, if he does not postpone his purchases but persists in spending that money, what will happen is that the interest rate pattern will not stabilise. Let me illustrate to hon members what we would ultimately like to achieve. It is this: Unless we curb credit spending we will have a growth rate which will continue on its very rapid upward curve as is the case now, but the fall will come soon and it will be a terrible one. What we must do, therefore, is divert the pattern of the graph to a lower plateau and extend the growth pattern into the future. We can, in fact, do this for a very substantially longer period than the duration of the growth period would be if we did not do this. Those are our objectives.

The irony of the whole matter—here is my hon colleague, who is an economist; I am not an economist—is that when we deal with the kind of measures that we had to introduce yesterday, we are not dealing with numbers. Primarily we are dealing with the emotions of people and with the way they will react, and that is an imponderable. In other words, what we are trying to do is to influence the attitudes of people in order to alter their actions in the economy. The numbers will come three, four, five or six months later. Only then will we be able to evaluate whether or not we have, in fact, achieved our objectives.

What we are really doing now, is ensuring that the growth rate which we can achieve in the economy, which will hopefully be one of approximately 3%, is achieved over a longer period of time and that we do not expend all our energy in a short-lived growth period of 5% or 6%, which is what is currently happening.

Therefore, I do believe that we shall have to monitor this very carefully as we have been doing, and I thank hon members for their recognition of that fact. We have to monitor it very carefully and if what are described by certain observers as “mild measures” prove to be too effective, we are in a position to withdraw some of them or to make them milder. However, Sir, if they are not severe enough, then we are also in a position to make them a little more strict in order to ensure that we do achieve our objectives because they are in the best interests of us all.

I want to deal very briefly with a few points which hon members made. I was not here during the dramatic events earlier this afternoon but I must say that the speech which the hon member for Laudium made was already in line with an opposition speech. [Interjections.] I do not know on which side of the House he is sitting now but if I were to judge by the tone of his speech I would say he is in the opposition. [Interjections.] However, I was very happy to learn at the end of his speech that he was, in fact, supportive of our Vote.

I want to thank him and the other hon members for the words of appreciation they expressed towards the Ministry and the Department of Finance. We are blessed and privileged to have some very highly qualified people and advisers at our side. [Interjections.] Not only that, they work very hard and if the lights on the third floor of the Hendrik Verwoerd Building are not the last to go out every night, they are certainly in the last three. I also wish to thank them for that. I am very happy to accept the appreciation of hon members on their behalf.

The hon member for Laudium mentioned the Bill dealing with harmful business practices that is in the process of being tabled in Parliament. I want to say outright that if we wanted to freeze or control prices, the legislation already exists for that. We do not need another Bill for that. In other words, what we are trying to do is to give teeth to two bodies, namely the Consumer Council and the Competition Board. The reason we want to do this is because we, the Government, want to keep out of it. We do not want to interfere in the economy, but we want to give the consumer a reasonable platform from which to look after his own interests. That is why we transfer the responsibility and, in a way, the accountability to the consumers themselves, to take action if they feel threatened and to organise themselves in a proper power to counter what they would deem as unnecessary price increases.

I want to ask the hon member for Laudium: Was he not a member of the Standing Committee on Trade and Industry at the time when GST was discussed?

No.

So he is not guilty of that, Sir. Anyway, I do not think it is fair comment to say that the Government is now offloading many of its own responsibilities with regard to the collection of taxes onto the private sector. We are a mixed country, yes. We are both First World and Third World. However, as far as our tax collection and the type of taxes we collect are concerned, we must be in line with what modern states can and should do. All over the world we have seen over the last decades a shift towards indirect taxation. When one talks about indirect taxation, it is completely unavoidable that the private sector itself will, at the point of sale, be involved in some fashion or other. Therefore, when it comes to GST, the entire responsibility rests only at the final point of sale. Now with this introduction, there is a whole chain of events where the private sector will be involved, but I am afraid that it cannot be avoided. It is also in the interest of the private sector itself that we have good collection and a sophisticated tax system, otherwise we as individuals will have to bear the entire burden.

I also want to join battle with the hon member with regard to his remark about minimum normal tax on companies being retroactive. Obviously, if it had not been defined as operational on a retroactive basis, only in terms of calculations of certain numbers in the previous tax year, we would have collected nothing at all. He knows as well as I do that if one tells a person in advance what kind of tax one is going to collect and that person is in the slightest position to avoid that tax, he will. I can give the hon member that blanket assurance that if we had announced that minimum tax on companies would be collected on this year’s figures we would have collected exactly zero and it would have been a fruitless exercise. Even if we would, perhaps, have collected something, it would only have been payable at the end of this tax year and that is not good enough. We want the cash flow now.

I want to make a final point in this regard. The hon member and other hon members must remember that we are in a period of rapid and rather drastic tax reform. Tax reform does not only mean designing a new table. I have advisers here in this Chamber. If tax reform meant the designing of a new tax table, they could have produced our entire tax reform programme’s basic documentation by four o’clock tomorrow morning, or perhaps they have it already. It does not only involve that. It involves, inter alia, some new tables, yes. However, when one talks about tax reform, one is talking about broadening the tax base. We have discussed earlier, both this year and during previous debates in former years, the essential aspect of a broad tax base and that we should not argue on the basis of exemptions. That brought us the grief of GST as we have it today.

Tax reform, therefore, is not only the creation of a broad tax base; it also means shifting the burden. We are all in agreement that the individual carries too heavy a burden.

We should therefore shift some of the burden to indirect taxation, while at the same time, according to Margo, having the necessary assistance programmes to help those individuals who will be adversely affected by the heavier tax burden that they will have to carry through indirect taxation. When it comes to a tax reform programme, one necessarily runs into a tight cash flow comer. In getting out of one’s cash flow problems, one has to resort to a kind of taxation that one will not necessarily repeat in the same form. If a person wants to view a tax reform programme, if a person wants to evaluate the merits and demerits of the tax instruments that are used to tide oneself over, one will have to do it retrospectively over a period of two or three years. That is why we have this peculiar type of taxation in the eyes of some people. However, I want to emphasise what I have said earlier, namely that it is on account of the fact that we are busy with a comprehensive tax reform programme. I do agree with the hon member that we need more highly qualified people because of the growth of the volumes and also the intricacies of the current tax administration.

The hon member need not be unduly concerned about privatisation and the transfer of monopolies. He will have noted that the Competition Board went to the hon the Minister of Administration and Privatisation with responsibility for privatisation. The Competition Board is the body that looks after the problems which may be encountered in monopolies. I can safely say to him that as far as that is concerned, he need not be unduly concerned.

However, he made a very true statement. He said privatisation is terribly important, not only in view of the results it seeks to achieve, but also in view of the way that one goes about it. That is very important, and I concur with him completely.

The hon member for Southern Natal correctly defined our current problem. He said we have to watch our imports and encourage our exports. There he put his finger on the right spot, because our vulnerability primarily lies in the status of our current account on the balance of payments. It is for that reason that we took some of the steps that we took yesterday. I am grateful that the hon member made reference to the fact that we have been observing the economy of our country very strictly. We are determined not to repeat past mistakes. However, being ordinary human beings on this side of the grave, I am pretty sure that we will be making some new ones that we have not made before! This will certainly not be for lack of effort or dedication. We will try and make sure that we are doing the right things for our economy in a very difficult set of circumstances. I wish to thank my colleague, the hon the Minister of the Budget, for his kind remarks. Unfortunately I could not write down fast enough what he said, but he made a remark with which I totally agree. He remarked on the attitude of hon members in this House. Ever since we have had the new dispensation going, it has been my privilege to come to this House in order to talk on the Budget. He said that despite party political differences in this House, hon members have always been pragmatic and practical because they want to give of their best to South Africa, the land of their birth. That was not just a hollow statement. I can vouch that that has always been my experience in this House. I wish to record my appreciation to the hon the Minister of the Budget for having said that. I also wish to thank hon members in this House for having made that statement one of absolute integrity and truth.

I also appreciate hon members’ sensitivity to unnecessary Government spending. From that point of view, I think there are many types of decisions that fall under his category of warning that we should steer clear of that as far as we can.

In conclusion I wish to address the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition. He recognised the discipline over the last two years, and I appreciate that very much. His observations are absolutely correct.

One can watch this economy and still be in a state of doubt as to whether it is actually growing. All of a sudden one will find that it did actually start growing stealthily at a rate which at that moment in time could really be afforded and the availability of money for so long a time did not really achieve that, but then all of a sudden it did start to achieve those results. Based on the advice that I have I am, however, confident that this time we heeded the early warning signs we received and for that reason it is true—as I referred to earlier—that in its entirety the whole package is rather mild, with the exception of the measures that will be applied by the Reserve Bank in order to ensure that banks will stay in line with the disciplines that the Reserve Bank would like to enforce on them. Other fiscal measures which have a more direct bearing on the consumer can indeed be said to be rather mild.

The hon member made a most important point about the special circumstance of the small business sector. In our situation, where we still have a relatively high inflation rate and with which the interest rate pattern obviously is in line, the latter rates in the final analysis determine the cash flow. In those circumstances the small business sector has a particular problem if interest rates start rising. In my view it accentuates the fact that we should have a proper vehicle to look after the small business sector. The banks are not always the right instruments to provide the necessary cash. Therefore I put a lot of faith in the future role of the Small Business Development Corporation. However, then we must be able to finance it properly so that it has the ability and the means. That is a partnership between the Government and the private sector and from our point of view we have tried our level best to do something with the available resources. However, I recognise that there are certain needs in the SBDC set-up that need to be addressed so that it will be in a position adequately to fulfil its role, not only in the good times but particularly now, in times of tighter liquidity when it comes to that stage in the business cycle.

I agree with the hon member that we must not allow money to be so readily available in such quantities that it lands a person in trouble. However, how do we do the one thing and not neglect the other? From the side of the authorities we do not want to interfere too much in the affairs of banks and financial institutions. Therefore consumer awareness does not only mean a strengthening of the position of the consumer. It does not only mean that we must protect the consumer against harmful business practices, but we must have a communication system so as to transfer the necessary knowledge and understanding and information. The consumer will then also be literally protected against himself and his own needs or perhaps avarice or even greed—for want of a better word—in certain circumstances. We will have to address that question as well at a later stage.

I would like to conclude by making a brief announcement in connection with which I would plead with the media also to help me to get this idea across to our senior citizens. We have found a certain uneasiness in terms of the enquiries—telephonically, written and otherwise—with regard to the “Granny Bonds”. I would therefore like to make this statement in conclusion.

When I announced in the Budget Speech that the Government would make available a subsidy in order to permit banks and building societies to issue a new savings instrument at an interest rate of 15%, I was at pains to point out that this new instrument would be additional to the very successful indefinite period senior citizen savings bonds, commonly referred to as “Granny Bonds”, issued last year.

Unfortunately there still appears to be some misunderstanding on this score and Treasury is still being inundated with enquiries as to whether existing indefinite period senior citizen savings bonds must now be redeemed 12 months after the initial investment. This is definitely not the case as the 12-month period referred to in the conditions of issue of these bonds is merely a minimum period during which repayment may not be requested.

As the title of these bonds implies, they have no fixed redemption date and any decision by the Minister of Finance to determine such a date in the future will be timeously brought to the attention of all investors, but we have no such idea at this stage.

If investors in the existing “Granny Bonds” do wish to redeem their investments after 12 months have elapsed, then they are of course free to do so. In other words, those people who took out these bonds last year need not redeem them. They can just leave them there and they will carry on. Those who want to invest in the new ones can do so according to the regulations that we have already published. I think that date is the 15th of May or something like that. In the middle of this month the new series will become available.

That concludes my remarks. I believe the hon member has a question and I shall take that now.

Mr Chairman, with regard to the “Granny Bonds” I want to ask the hon the Minister whether there is a limit on the amount of both of them. Can one have the previous one as well as another one?

Mr Chairman, the total that a person may have in these bonds is R30 000 on the new one. In other words, they can close last year’s book.

If that is not correct I have now announced it, so it had better be so! [Interjections.] In other words, last year’s amount is not taken into account. When this year’s investment is made it is R30 000. That is to say that this new system, with its new title, has a maximum of R30 000. At the time of announcing it we also issued a warning that senior citizens must not allow themselves to be coaxed into making multiple investments exceeding R30 000 and they must also not make themselves available as “rent-a-grannies”, as we are also aware of the fact that the “rent-agranny” business was quite brisk in some areas last year.

Vote agreed to.

Chairman directed to report progress and ask leave to sit again.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.

Mr Chairman, I move:

Agreed to.