Mr. Speaker, with your leave and on a point of personal explanation I should like to bring the following to the notice of the House. I refer to a speech which I made on the Bantu Administration and Development Vote on Thursday, 6th June, 1968, when on two occasions I used figurative language in saying that the hon. member for Houghton should be given a hiding on account of what she had said. It has come to my notice that this expression has been misunderstood by certain persons as meaning that the hon. member should have been given a physical hiding. I regret that such a completely erroneous deduction has been made. I want to declare unequivocally that all I meant was that she should be given a hiding in a figurative sense, that is to say, that she should be chastised verbally, which I in fact did in no uncertain terms in my speech; and that it would be quite unthinkable for me to have used those words in anything but that figurative sense. I hope that the figurative language which I used will be understood and taken in that sense.

Mr. Speaker, with your permission, I would like to withdraw certain words which I used during the discussion of the Bantu Administration Vote last Thursday and which infringed the Rules of this House. The words concerned are “these wretched laws” and “these terrible laws”. I withdraw the words “wretched” and “terrible” unreservedly.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to reply to the questions of hon. members who have participated in this debate up to now, and for their convenience I should like to do so now.

†The first speaker on the side of the Opposition was the hon. member for Constantia. He made two statements, amongst others. The first was that half the people are employed to plan what the other half must do. He also said that the Department of Planning was created in a frenzied attempt to rectify the negligence of the past 20 years. I want to say that there is no substance whatsoever in either of these statements. The first one, referring to the Department of Planning, is devoid of all truth. The Department of Planning consists of 183 public servants. If one compares this with the 1,000 officials in the Department of Mining, 1,825 in the Department of Labour and the 3,090 officials in the Department of Transport one sees that there can be no substance whatsoever in that statement by the hon. member for Constantia. Secondly, the Department was not created in a frenzied attempt to rectify the negligence of the past 20 years. First of all there was no negligence during the past 20 years. Twenty years have passed since the National Party came into power.

Twenty years of unsolved problems.

In 20 years the industrial development of this country has increased fivefold.

Like every other country.

The hon. member for East London (City) is speaking …

Is that unique?

It is not unique, but what is unique is what has happened in the 20 years of Nationalist Government in the field of agriculture. I am now speaking to the hon. member for East London (City). In 1948 agricultural production amounted to R376 million. Last year this figure was R 1,309 million.

This is no better than Australia. Do not discuss agriculture now.

Order!

Thirdly, this so-called negligence saw to it that in my own Department, the Department of Mines, the total amount brought in was R 1,319 million last year compared with R260 million in 1948. This was after 20 years of National Party Government. This country has expanded and thrived in the last 20 years. To such an extent that it is very necessary to-day to have extra departments to cope with the tremendous development of South Africa.

The Department of Planning is not a Department which was created out of nothing. It is a Department the object of which is to coordinate. The old Natural Resources Act and what goes with it, the three advisers to the Prime Minister and their staffs, the Group Areas Act and its administration, the Bureau of Statistics and certain other functions which were all existing departments and functions within the Government, were brought together for the benefit of South Africa in the Department of Planning.

The hon. member also stated that it was because of the neglect of the past 20 years that we have the present situation. I make bold to say that there is no country in the world that I know of where the planning, before a Department of Planning existed, has been so adequate and forward-looking as the planning over the past 20 years in the Republic of South Africa. Let me give the hon. member but a few examples. The Suez Canal was closed and South Africa can cope to-day, after 20 years of Nationalist Government, after this so-called “neglect”, with every ship that comes to our harbours. Our planning and our government were such that when the pound sterling devalued, South Africa could see to it that our rand was not devalued. To-day the whole world experiences a gold crisis; we have no gold crisis. All we have, is the stuff to sell. That is after 20 years of National Party Government.

The hon. member also inquired about certain reports which are being compiled by the department. He first of all inquired about the Council for Automation, referred to in paragraph 17 of the report of the department. An advisory committee has been appointed, and will meet in August to consider proposals by the South African Council for Automation. This has therefore been done.

Secondly, the hon. member inquired about industrialized building. I may also inform the hon. member that a technical advisory committee under the National Building and Construction Board was appointed by the Minister of Community Development.

Then the hon. member inquired as to the Institute for Coastal Engineering. I may tell him that it has been decided to establish such an institute at the University of Stellenbosch, and to transfer the existing facilities from the C.S.I.R. in Pretoria to Stellenbosch. I hope in due course to make an official announcement as to the opening date and to give further details in this regard.

The hon. member also inquired about the loss of scientists, and referred to paragraph 21 of the Department’s report. I am sure that the hon. member will be interested to know that negotiations are at present being conducted with overseas embassies to make a survey of all students studying overseas. Secondly the passport division of the Department of the Interior has requested all persons who intend to study overseas to supply particulars of their studies and duration of their study. Thirdly, steps are also being considered to obtain particulars of all returning students as a measure of control.

Then the hon. member inquired about controlled areas, referred to in paragraph 13. Owing to other commitments, the chairman of the committee responsible for the revision of the plan mentioned in paragraph 13, Professor Page, who moved from Pretoria to Stellenbosch and subsequently went overseas for further study, could unfortunately not complete this project. But we hope and expect it to be completed towards the end of 1968.

*The hon. member for Gordonia pleaded for the creation of points of growth in backward areas. In this connection I should like to tell the hon. member that a departmental investigation is being conducted into the decentralization of activities to areas other than border areas, for example to the Southern Free State, the Western and North Western Cape, etc. In addition the hon. member requested the more purposeful implementation of regional plans. I want to point out to the hon. member, however, that that is not the function of regional development associations. They can in fact play a major role in the drawing up of regional plans, but the implementation of those plans is not their task in the first place. The hon. member will know that the Department operates in this field through auxiliary committees on which regional development associations have representation. As regards the co-ordination of the activities of regional development associations the hon. member asked whether a congress, I assume a national congress, could not be convened. At the present moment we are still engaged in acquainting ourselves with the activities of these associations and with the question of what the relationship of the Department to those associations should be. Therefore I do not think that the time is ripe for such a congress to be convened. We shall, however, keep this in mind for the future if it should become evident that any purpose could be served by convening such a congress. As regards the contribution of the hon. member to this debate in general, and those of other hon. members on this side of the House, I want to say that their contributions, in contrast to those of hon. members opposite, were positive and showed an understanding of problems such as we also experience in the Department.

†The hon. member for Mooi River referred to the report on the Tugela Basin. He used the term “a plan for the Tugela Basin”. I am fully aware that the work done in this respect is of an outstanding nature, so much so that it has received world recognition. But I should like to point out to the hon. member that the title of the report is not “a plan for the Tugela Basin”, but a report “towards a plan for the Tugela Basin”. Therefore, this report does not contain a plan as such; it is only a comprehensive study prepared with a view to formulating a plan for the Tugela Basin. The hon. member also wanted me to tell him how I saw the function of my Department in relation to the development of the Tugela Basin. From the interest the hon. member has shown in this matter. I am glad to see that he is very interested in the establishment of border industries in this particular area. In that respect we are, therefore, making progress as far as the United Party is concerned. I should, however, like to hear from the hon. member in more clear terms whether he is in fact advocating the development of border industrial areas in the Tugela Basin. I am sure his constituents would also like to know what his views are in this respect. He also requested that the location of large industries, “seed industries” as he called them, industries such as Iscor, should be decided on economic rather than on political grounds. I can assure the hon. member that all relevant factors are taken into consideration when deciding upon the siting of this type of industry. From the tenor of the speech of the hon. member I drew the conclusion that as far as he was concerned a third Iscor only would be forthcoming in the years ahead. But he must recognize that in a country developing such as we are developing, and after the development we have had over 20 years of National Party Government and recognizing that we shall still have such a government for many years to come, there must inevitably come a fourth and perhaps also a fifth and sixth Iscor at some time or other. In any event I as Minister of Planning cannot be satisfied with the idea that we should plan for the establishment of only one Iscor in future.

The hon. member also wanted to know whether any funds would be made available to the Association. Unfortunately we have no funds available for that Association at the moment. If, however, the hon. member can come forward with a definite request for border industrial development we could also look into that matter.

*I want to congratulate the hon. member for Klip River on his contribution. [Interjections.] I would be quite prepared to congratulate hon. members of the Opposition as well had they taken the kind of lead which the hon. member for Klip River had taken in connection with the establishment of the Tugela Basin Development Association. This is the kind of development which the Department would like to see, and consequently we welcome it. We shall continue to do our share in this regard as we have been doing in the past. The hon. member expressed his concern about the fact that the water to be taken from the Tugela to the Vaal Triangle might stimulae development on the Witwatersrand to such an extent that it might have an adverse effect on decentralization to the border areas and also to the Tugela Basin. But as far as I am concerned, the Tugela Basin itself has sufficient possibilities to attract development. But naturally the Witwatersrand will, in spite of the pessimistic outlook of the hon. member for Orange Grove and in spite of the strict policy we are following in respect of border areas development, continue to grow and will grow larger and stronger. For that water will be required there in any event.

†The hon. member for Parktown dealt with the application of the Physical Planning Act, and stated that there were delays of up to three to four months in dealing with certain applications. But I should like to tell the hon. member that there are no undue delays. All applications receive prompt attention. Where delays occur these are caused through applicants supplying insufficient information. In these cases the applications have to stand over until we receive the additional information required, which can be obtained only from the applicants themselves. But I am quite sure that these deficiencies can be ironed out in the course of time as industrialists get the feel, so to speak, of this legislation and of what it involves.

I should like to give the figures for the information of the hon. member and the Committee: Since the 19th January 642 applications have been received; 502 have been disposed of and 140 are under consideration Of the 140 seven have been in our possession for three months; we are awaiting further information; 14 have been in our possession for two months. 15 for five weeks, 14 for four weeks, 23 for three weeks and 26 for two weeks.

*The hon. member for Zululand raised the question of the area to the north of Durban but to the south of the Tugela River and made special reference to employment opportunities for Indians and Coloureds. The Regional Planning Commission of Natal, on which my Department naturally has representation, already adopts a regional approach to the entire area. Secondly, industrialists in this area who employ chiefly Indian employees have already been granted border area privileges. We shall gladly supply details in this regard to the hon. member, if he so wishes. Then the hon. member referred to the prediction that enormous development could take place in the Richard’s Bay area. I agree with the hon. member; I am optimistic. I think that area has a very bright future. But the fact of the matter is that not one of us is in a position to say at this stage exactly what course that development will take, but we are in a position to see to it that when that development does take place it will be orderly and systematic development; that is the important thing. For the information of the hon. member I may just mention that the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of Community Development, the Minister of Economic Affairs and I myself intend paying a joint visit to the Richard’s Bay-Empangeni area in August in order to look into the different problems which the different Departments will have to face.

Then the hon. member inquired who would take the decisions on so-called regional matters and who would control the development. As yet the question of how over-all control over the aspect of urban development in that area is to be exercised has not been settled. In the meantime over-all planning is being carried out under the guidance of my Department which also undertakes the co-ordination of development by the various Government Departments. I may just add that we are considering a possible method of control over development in that area, one I have unfortunately not been able to submit to the Cabinet as yet, but the hon. member and others will be informed of the precise decision in due course.

Then the hon. member for Witbank asked for better co-ordination between the Department of Planning and the Department of Community Development. I am pleased that the hon. member raised this matter, because to be continually geared for bringing about better co-ordinaltion and not acting in isolation, is in the line of duty of the Department of Planning. As a matter of fact, this is what we do. As the hon. member knows all interested Departments are consulted during the investigation stage of regional matters, etc., but I agree with the hon. member that co-ordination and co-operation between the Department of Planning and the Department of Community Development are of vital importance, and my Department and I myself will in future be even more intent on achieving this. In connection with the appointment of the water plan commission the hon. member inquired whether attention would also be given to the pollution of streams. I am aware that he has problems in his area and surrounding districts. I may say that this matter is enjoying the specific attention of the Committee which is undertaking the regional study of the Witbank-Middelburg area. As the hon. member knows, there is a subsidiary committee which in this regard is also looking into other aspects during this investigation, i.e. the question which the hon. member raised in connection with the subdivision of land into units which are too small. This has been included specifically in the terms of reference of the committee. But I want to remind the hon. member that the entire matter of the fragmentation of our land will be investigated, as the Minister of Agriculture announced, by an inter-departmental committee which will go into the entire matter in all its aspects.

May we also hear this private conversation?

I was addressing the hon. member for Witbank personally, although my remarks naturally were intended for the information of the entire Committee. It was very pleasant for me to listen to the hon. member for Witbank in contradistinction to other hon. members, because the hon. member for Witbank placed the interests of the country above his own interests or even above the interests of his own area when he was speaking.

†The hon. member for Umlazi—and I do not mind if other hon. members listen in while I address him—wanted detailed information about the proposed Rietvlei Harbour. It is correct that initially this harbour is planned to be a fishing harbour. My Department has only a function in the co-ordination of the initial planning and thereafter, since this is a fishing harbour, the detailed planning is the sole responsibility of the Department of Industries. But I should like to make it quite clear to the hon. member, in the light of the other questions he put to me, that it is not the function nor the responsibility of my Department to undertake the detailed planning of any harbour and that this is a responsibility which rests with the South African Railways and the Department of Industries, depending, of course, on the intended purpose of the harbour.

The hon. member also raised certain points regarding the lack of information with respect to the planning of the Richard’s Bay area. All I have to say at the moment is that while the over-all planning is in the stage of preparation in which it is now, it will serve no good purpose to make such plans, which are still in a fluid state, available to the public. I think it will only be misleading and it will certainly not be to the benefit of either the inhabitants of that particular area or of the public in general.

Cannot we have interim reports? Cannot the local authorities be brought into it?

The local authority has been brought into these matters to the extent that it is necessary to do so, but it would be absolutely wrong to inform the public and the local authority of plans which are still in a very fluid state. There is nothing to hide about the development in the Richard’s Bay area or any other area for that matter but it cannot be finalized within a year or two.

*Then the hon. member for Malmesbury referred to Ouskip and the possible erection of the nuclear power station there. I just want to tell the hon. member that at present the allocation and development of beach resorts such as he has in mind are, in consequence of a statement I made earlier this year, the exclusive responsibility of the provincial administration, provided of course that it is in accordance with Government policy, something on which the emphasis always has to fall. As far as Ouskip is concerned, the hon. member will also know that the discussions which have already taken place between the provincial administration, the Atomic Energy Board, the divisional council and others were initiated by the Department of Planning. I personally and the Department would be very happy if beach facilities, such as those envisaged by the hon. member, could be created for our Coloureds in view of the development there has already been in respect of roads. As Minister of Mines I shall most definitely have further discussions with the Chairman of the Atomic Energy Board so as to ascertain to what extent it will be practical to move this power station, as the hon. member suggested, possibly two miles inland so as to enable these facilities for our Coloured people to be established there.

†Now I come to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District). Sir, I feel it my duty to tell the hon. member—and I do not say this in a bad way at all, but I say it seriously— that he is well on the way to becoming known as the most disliked member of this House. In years gone by we have had members like him and I can only tell him that those members are already completely forgotten. For that matter, it was not in the interest of their constituencies either.

Now why did you say all that?

Because of the conduct of that hon. member, not only in this debate but day after day in this House, and I think it is about time that somebody told that hon. member what I have just told him. [Interjections.] The hon. member can defend himself; I do not mind. Now the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) asked me whether it is the intention to remove all Coloureds from Southern Natal and to resettle them at Pinetown.

Have you heard what they say about the most disliked Minister?

Order!

Are you interested in my reply to the hon. member? [ Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member for Umlazi does not have the floor now; the Minister has it.

That is typical of the ministerial attitude, [Interjections.]

Order!

The hon. member for Fauresmith spoke very affectionately about the storm and stress, the fox-hunts and dust-storms in the Free State in a characteristically Free State manner. I listened with great pleasure to the plea he delivered for his area. The hon. member is also aware that that area has its problems. The hon. member referred to this area as a possible white heartland of the Republic, but now the hon. member will agree with me that if we were to stimulate industries there injudiciously and on a large scale, that area may not remain the white heartland of the Republic, and consequently great care has to be exercised. I think that we should seriously view the development of those regions also in this light.

†The hon. member for Port Natal criticized the policy not to extend the Coloured group areas at Barberton, Pietersburg and at other places which have already been proclaimed in the Transvaal. Now I may say to the hon. member that the policy is that all Coloureds in the Transvaal except those in the Pretoria-Vereeniging Witwatersrand complex should eventually be settled at the following five centres, namely Klerksdorp, Potchefstroom, Witbank, Middelburg and Standerton. All these five centres are growth points with a viable economy, and the intention is to provide all amenities such as schools and recreational facilities, etc., for the Coloured people there. At these centres the Coloured people will be able to develop into self-contained communities, with their own local government bodies. Group areas already proclaimed at other places in the Transvaal will not be deproclaimed at this stage, but the Coloureds in these areas will be encouraged in their own interest to move to one of the five centres I mentioned. I think hon. members will appreciate that at centres with only a small number of Coloureds it will not be possible to establish their own local authorities and what goes with them, and the development into communities managing their own affairs which is the aim of the Government will not be possible.

I now want to come back to calmer waters in order to reply to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District).

Will they be encouraged to move or obliged to move?

I said “encouraged”. In fact, in this respect I should also like to make an appeal to industrialists to employ these Coloureds and to encourage them to move to the centres where they need their employment in these five areas.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) asked about the removal of Coloureds from Southern Natal and their resettlement in Pinetown. The reply is that an interdepartmental committee is at present engaged upon inquiring into the whole question of the Coloured problem in Natal with a view to obtaining all relevant facts in order that the Department and also the Government, may be able to determine a policy in regard to the Coloureds in Natal. In all 24 Coloured areas in 10 centres of Natal have been proclaimed. So far no Coloured group area has been proclaimed in Southern Natal.

I think I have now disposed for the present of most of the points raised. If necessary, I shall reply to further points at a later stage.

We are grateful for the speeches made by the hon. member for Gordonia and the hon. member for Faure-smith. Nobody is to blame for this, but we have the position, and we do not want to dwell on this, that in South Africa we have development to the east of the Drakensberg mountain range. We have tremendous development to the north of the Vaal River. We have development in the Cape Peninsula as well as in the coastal regions, but this entire midland area, which has rightly been referred to as the heartland of the Republic, suffers from this retarded development. We do not blame anybody for this. This is the natural development of circumstances as they were. Now we have this position of over-development in certain regions and retarded development in other regions. This afternoon I want to deliver a plea to the hon. the Minister of Planning and his Department to clutch at every straw which may possibly give rise to the development of that area. We are grateful for the development in the Orange River Basin. We are more than grateful for the development in the Orange River Valley because we believe that it will attract further development to that region which will allow it to attract its rightful share of the prosperity of South Africa.

Before going any further, I want to make it quite clear that I am not speaking in a spirit of wanting to cross swords with anybody. Ibis is the first point I want to make. In the second place I want it to be clearly understood that just as I do not wish to argue or to cross swords with anybody, I do not want to make any demands either except that I want to plead with the Minister for this matter to receive the attention of his Department on this level, namely that his Department should merely investigate the matter which I am now going to raise and that the findings of such an investigation should be implemented in the interests of South Africa as a whole. No one is to blame for the position which we have in South Africa where the legislative authority of the country is geographically separated from the executive authority, while the seat of the judiciary is situated at a completely different place. No one is to blame for this. We are grateful to and we pay tribute to those who deemed it necessary to follow this method in order to bring about unity in South Africa, first of all in the Union of South Africa and then in this beautiful young Republic of South Africa which we all love.

Now you are skating on thin ice.

I am skating on thin ice, but I have said that I do not want to argue with anybody, not even the hon member. It is conceded that in the past, as even to-day, it has been possible to govern a country as we are governing it to-day. When we consider the development which has taken place in South Africa, particularly over the past 20 years, we cannot deny that there has been good government. We do not want to establish facts; we merely want to plead for attention to be given to this matter so that it will be possible to have a final decision at some suitable time, and consequently we are raising this subject. South Africa has undergone fundamental changes during the past 50 or 60 years and to-day we are the industrial giant in Africa, and in my opinion it is highly doubtful whether it will always be possible for us to govern South Africa while we allow ourselves to be served by two capitals, actually three, if we think of Bloemfontein as the judicial capital. Seeing that knowledge is strength, I want to make the plea that this Department should assist us in acquiring the necessary knowledge in this regard by means of investigation so as to see whether the time has not perhaps arrived when we should have one capital only.

I want to conclude by saying that I am not pleading for either Pretoria, or Cape Town, but that I am pleading for a new capital. I am not pleading for Bloemfontein either. If possible. there should be an entirely new capital on the large man-made lake of the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam situated between the Orange and Caledon Rivers.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who just sat down said the had no wish to fight with anybody, and I should like to join him in that, but I do want to say to him that while I am a member of this House I have every intention of fighting with anybody and everybody for the things in which I believe, if need be. I wish to say to the hon. the Minister that when I spoke of the Coloureds in the Transvaal before the debate was adjourned last night, I did so merely as an example to illustrate to the Minister that the whole planning behind the group areas is wrong if he believes he can limit the size of a group area. The size of such an area can never be limited because the population of the country continues to grow.

When the House adjourned last night I was appealing to the Minister to give us the assurance that a proper study was made before group area proclamations were issued. I did so because I believe that too often these proclamations are made with too little regard for the different living standards and ways of life as well as the businesses of the various race groups affected. I believe, if we want to avoid the injustices and hardships caused by the wholesale moving of various population groups in South Africa then it is essential that we give detailed study to the various problems affecting the particular groups. I believe, too often we have tended1 to ignore this fundamental fact; too often have we set ourselves against nature by moving a particular race group to an area completely unsuitable for that group, an area perhaps very far from the nearest employment area. I think here in particular of the removals which have taken place among the Bantu races just recently in Northern Natal.

You know nothing about that.

As long as I am in this House I will no doubt have the hon. member on my left making inane remarks. These groups in Northern Natal were moved from existing areas to new areas and all instances which I have investigated show that they have been moved some distance from their nearest place of employment. This has involved these groups in further expense in getting to their nearest work point. Moreover a great many of them are now unemployed and virtually unemployable because of the siting of the new areas to which they have been sent. The recent moves in Northern Natal indicate that there was very little prior planning in this regard, so much so that the people moved to Limehill for instance could not obtain work in the near vicinity unless they were prepared to spend a large share of their earnings on bus fares going to and from their places of employment.

I am sure the Minister will agree with me that the group areas proclamations over the years have caused not only the hardships I have mentioned but also a great deal of frustration as well as fear for the future. In 1963 a group of Bantu in Natal was moved to a new area, to Khumalosville and this year they have heard very strong rumours that they are going to be moved again to another area.

May I point out to the hon. member that the removal of Bantu has really nothing to do with either this department or with the Group Areas Act?

I am just using these instances to illustrate the difficulties and frustrations which can be caused. As I said, these people were moved in 1963, and now five years later they are told the first move was wrong in the first place and they will have to move again. The Minister of course knows that in the days of the old Z.A.R. the President allocated a certain area of Johannesburg to the Indians in the 1880’s, and now in the 1960’s their descendants are told to go and live somewhere else. Isipingo in Natal was a white area for 60 years. The title deeds of properties there stipulated that only Whites could live there, and now they are suddenly moved elsewhere too. I say every race group is affected by group areas legislation. One might well ask what is the value of our title deeds if such a state of uncertainty exists in regard to the planning of group areas. I sincerely believe that the whole question of group areas must be more closely investigated than it has been in the past. Durban is surrounded with group areas for different race groups, for Indians, Coloureds, Bantu, and so on. and in the near future this state of affairs will handicap the industrial development of that city. How will industries expand there?

Is the concept of group areas acceptable to you?

I have no objection to residential separation. But I do not like the term “group areas”. I believe that the residential separation of people can be achieved humanely and with less heartlessness than has been the case up to now. I believe the very term “group areas” fills the people involved in these removals with discontent from the very beginning, and leads to a condemnation of the policy. I believe that it is the implementation of group areas that has brought about the difficulties we experienced. I have no objection to separate areas for different race groups. The hon. the Minister must understand that quite clearly. If the hon. the Minister wishes to twist anything I have said, he may well do so.

Order! The hon. member may not say that.

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw the word “twist”, because I do not mean it in an unpleasant sense. I am sure that the hon. the Minister understands the sense in which I meant it. I want to say this to the hon. the Minister. In fact, I am pleading with the hon. the Minister and I make no excuse for pleading with him, because I am pleading for people who have been hurt by the implementation of the Group Areas Act. I do not oppose separate areas for separate race groups. I have never opposed it. I oppose the word group areas, because the Group Areas Act has connotations which have defeated the very principle of separating the various race groups into different residential areas. If I can conclude my speech without the chattering from the monkey on my left …

Order! The hon. member must withdraw those words.

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw that remark.

Order! What remark has the hon. member withdrawn?

I specifically withdraw the words “the monkey on my left”.

Did the hon. member not say something about a “chattering” monkey?

Mr. Chairman, if I did say that, I withdraw it as well.

The hon. member should really apologize to that hon. member.

I apologize to the hon. member for calling him a chattering monkey. I do, however, hope that this will make him cease chattering when I am speaking in future.

The hon. member must return to the Vote and stop talking about chatterers.

I want to conclude my remarks by repeating my appeal to the Minister that he must ensure that when group areas are proclaimed in South Africa a full study is made into the problems and hardships caused to all race groups when these areas are proclaimed.

Mr. Chairman, this Vote, i.e. Planning, is one of the most important Votes which we discuss in this House. But when we consider some of the remarks flung across the floor of this House, such as those made by the hon. member for Orange Grove, who said that this Minister was a “king of chaos”, and by the hon. member for Umlazi, who said that he was a “tzar of chaos” and that the industrial sector was coming to a standstill, then I do not think that either of these members contributed anything to debating the problems in South Africa. This Minister controls what is probably one of the most important departments in the republic, namely the Department of Planning. The Department of Planning can be regarded as a blanket department, which has to do a great deal of work for all the other departments and which has to take the lead in effecting purposeful planning in this country. If one bears that in mind, one feels unhappy when one hears such remarks in this House.

Nor do I want to cross swords with my good friend the hon. member for Smithfield, who said that he would like an investigation to be instituted into the possibility of a new capital. However, we must be very cautious. There are a few things in life which one may not throw overboard overnight. These few things are one’s bank manager or bank, one’s family doctor and one’s church. We should have second thoughts before we summarily discard our mother city, which has served this country of ours so faithfully over the years. Should there be problems in this regard, they should be given thorough attention. We must not think that if we were to get rid of our mother city as our legislative capital, we would then create a Utopia. The hon. member merely requested an investigation, and for that reason I shall not cross swords with him as far as this matter is concerned. Whereas our Minister of Planning …

Where is he?

The hon. the Minister is sitting over there. Whereas the Minister of Planning is at present administering some of the most important legislation in this country, i.e. the Physical Planning Act, I want to plead with him this afternoon not to respond to the hon. member for Parktown’s plea, in which he asked the hon. the Minister why he did not lay down norms so that the industrialists might know exactly where they stand. My plea to the Minister this afternoon is that he must continue along the course he has followed up to now. I want him to treat each application for the expansion of factories and for Bantu labour in these areas on its merits. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that there are many small factories which are located in the Witwatersrand complex, the Port Elizabeth complex and the Cape Town complex. It would be fatal to lay down any norms for permitting a certain percentage. Moreover, it would definitely impede our industrial development. Every factory has its own character and its own problems which are peculiar to itself. That is why I want to plead this afternoon that no norms should be laid down in this regard. The hon. the Minister must continue along the course he has adopted. We want him to investigate each application personally to see whether or not he can grant that application. Over the past days we have heard a great deal about areas that are overcrowded and about backward areas. We just want to tell the hon. the Minister that we do not envy him the task he has to shoulder. I just want to ask that provision should be made for those overcrowded areas, and that those people should not merely be told that they can develop up to a certain point and no further.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister to institute a very thorough investigation into one specific matter. We find to-day that the goldmines on the Witwatersrand are closing down. Those hon. members who know the Witwatersrand, will know that it is a tragic experience to witness a gold-mine closing down. In that mining area there are large buildings and all sorts of facilities. When such a mine closes down overnight, demolition work is carried out on those premises and large tracts of land lie fallow there. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to investigate this matter thoroughly in order to see whether it is not possible for us to develop these areas in such a way that we can make use of the existing facilities there, facilities such as water, electricity, housing and important road and rail links. We showed the hon. the Minister those areas. He saw what it looked like there when a mine closed down. Dilapidated walls are demolished, and generally this is a terrible thing to witness. We feel that those areas cannot be left that way. Nor can we allow the capital that was spent on them to be wasted in that way. We are advocating proper planning in respect of those areas in the Witwatersrand complex.

I shall now deal with a matter I regard as being very important. In this regard I should like to refer to paragraph 59 of the report. It deals with recreation—

I want to make a plea to the hon. the Minister of Planning this afternoon. We in the Republic of South Africa are obsessed with sport. The administrators of sport in general are exploiting the people of the Republic of South Africa in the most atrocious way. I want to refer specifically to the test match which took place in Pretoria a few days ago. Facilities are provided and tickets are sold to people, but the seats are simply not there. If this had occurred in any other business transaction, it would have been possible to charge those people with fraud tomorrow. The width of the seat of a human being may, as they take it, have been 12 inches in the remote past. The human seat is no longer 12 inches in width today, for we are too prosperous in this country of ours. I want to plead to-day that a stop should be put to these abuses which prevail there. A stop should also be put to these temporary stands which are sometimes as high as 180 feet. These temporary stands, which sway to and fro when they are filled to capacity and a try is scored, will still be the cause of one of the greatest disasters that has ever hit the Republic of South Africa. My plea to the hon. the Minister is that an investigation should be instituted into the circumstances which prevail in this regard. The way we are being exploited by these rugby test matches at the moment, is a disgrace.

Mr. Chairman, not having been present at the rugby test match referred to by the hon. member for Brakpan. I will leave to one side the last part of his speech. I find myself in the extraordinary position this afternoon of agreeing with some of what the hon. member for Brakpan said in the earlier part of his speech. He made a special plea to the hon. the Minister of Planning to make a special study of the areas on the Witwatersrand where mines are closing down. He painted a vivid picture of the condition of a town, presumably like Brakpan, where marginal mines are no longer considered to be economical to work and are closing down. He drew a sad picture of the owners of houses and all the other environmental factors found in a mining town which suddenly finds itself devastated because of the fact that the mine has closed down. I could not agree more with the hon. member for Brakpan. It is precisely because of this closing down of mines that one desperately needs the establishment of industries in those areas so that they can take over what the mines are no longer able to do, and that is, to provide employment for the local population. There is a tremendous amount of capital investment which can be used for industry. There is also industrial ground which is absolutely first class for every purpose, because there is an available market, and labour. There is all the infra-structure that one requires in the form of transport and power ready for any industrialist who wants to step in and develop those areas into industrial areas instead of mining areas. This is exactly what one believes in for the whole Witwatersrand and not only for Brakpan. It is what, for instance, the local authority is trying to get permission for in the south of Johannesburg where the whole of the Crown Mines area is closing down or has closed down already. In the South there is an excellent piece of industrial land available close to the areas where the African townships of Soweto are situated as well as near the market of Johannesburg and the Witwatersrand. Why is there such difficulty in allowing these areas to develop into industrial areas? This is where I have to take issue with the hon. the Minister of Planning, because to me this is all so obvious. One does not need any training in economics to see that this is the obvious placement for the mining areas which have closed down, namely to switch to industrial development. I cannot understand why the local authorities should be experiencing any difficulties in this regard. Surely the hon. the Minister must consider, in the light of planning for the future, steps to absorb the population of South Africa. By this I do not mean only the white population, but the African population on the Witwatersrand in particular who are permanently there. These are people who were born in the area and there is a natural increase every year. More jobs, and not fewer, are going to be required. I must ask the hon. the Minister earnestly to consider himself more in the light of a Minister of future planning, than in the light of an additional deputy Minister of Bantu Administration. Really this is so important for the future of this country.

The hon. member for Witbank yesterday made a speech in which he said that if he had to choose between Witbank developing and the good of South Africa, he would choose the good of South Africa. Does he not understand that the two are complementary? The one is not mutually exclusive of the other. In fact, one is absolutely dependent on the other.

I said if they were conflicting.

But they are not conflicting. Let me tell the hon. member at once that they are supplementary to each other. One cannot separate the two. [Interjections.] I wish the hon. member would be quiet; he had his ten minutes yesterday. If the country is to be able to develop its internal market and take full advantage of the economies of large-scale production, we have to see to it that every single industrial and mining area is kept going at full blast. This is the only way in which we can not only retain, but develop our position as the workshop of the rest of Africa. We have to be able to take full advantage of large-scale economies. It has been worked out by economic experts that one needs about 35 million people constituting a market before one can take advantage of large-scale economies in production. If the unit cost is lowered, the economy will become truly competitive. Why on earth do we not go full out on this aspect? We have to worry about the natural increase of the population. I am not even talking about influx from outside the existing industrial areas. Why is there the delay in the adaptation? I know the hon. the Minister is suffering from a manpower shortage. He does not have the staff, etc. I am dead against employing people in the unproductive occupation of examining applications, which should simply go through in the normal course of economic development.

I never said that we are short of staff.

There is obviously a shortage, if there are so many applications that still have to be dealt with. It is not a question of just lifting a telephone, as the hon. the Minister said. There is a lot of red tape involved, and industrialists complain about the situation. They complain, of course, because what is their normal right as entrepreneurs has now been handed over to the hon. the Minister, namely to decide whether to expand or not. Unless they expand, they are going to die. Does the hon. the Minister not understand this? He is not going to force decentralization by doing this. The entrepreneur will simply not go ahead with any further plans. There are natural growth points which they are prepared to help develop, but they are not prepared to be decentralized on an ideological basis. They will put their money in some other venture, which will not be an industrial venture in this country.

You do not know what is going on in the country.

I do know what is going on. But if I do not know what is going on, perhaps the hon. the (Minister will agree that the Federal Chamber of Industries knows what is going on. They say:

They know what is going on, and they know exactly that there is going to be a stultification of economic development.

The hon. the Minister pointed with pride to the economic development that has taken place in South Africa over the last 20 years. Of course he does not mention anything about devaluation in 1949, or the development of the Free State gold areas from 1950 onwards, which is, of course, the main reason for this enormous industrial, mining and agricultural expansion, because the necessary market has thereby been provided. He tells us none of this. He takes full credit for this economic development. Let me tell him that he is going to take full blame for the stultification of economic development if he does not consider himself, as I said, as a Minister of Planning, and not a Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration. Because every decision he takes is clouded by this issue. He does not tell the industrialists what criteria he is applying. He does not have to, in terms of the Act. But from the speeches he makes all over the country we all know that the one criterion which he does apply all the time is whether expansion would mean the employment of additional African labour. The absurdity about this is that the Africans are here. What are these unemployed youths then to do? Where are they going to get employment? And if the purchasing power in the country is contracted, instead of expanding as it must do if the entire population is to get advantages out of our enormous industrial potentialities, doesn’t the hon. the Minister realize that it is not only the non-Whites who are going to be affected by this but also the Whites? Just as our markets have expanded following upon mining and industrial developments in South Africa, so will they contract, thereby affecting every single one of us: producers, consumers, industrialists, agriculturalists and others are going to feel the pinch in years to come if these strictures are going to be applied to what should be normal industrial development. So, I earnestly hope that so far as the Witwaters-rand area is concerned, the hon. the Minister will listen to the words spoken by the hon. member for Brakpan and over and over again by hon. members on this side of the House when pleading for industrial development to replace the dying mining industry. All of us realize that in a modern industrial economy there has to be a measure of State planning; there has to be a “mixed” economy—neither everything free enterprise, nor everything State controlled. But there has to be a mixture of the two because the State has to supply the infrastructure, like power and transport, which private enterprise is unable to do. In addition the State has to take certain steps to ensure that industrial development is ordered and that the workers are not exploited. But thereafter it is private enterprise that makes this country tick. Now, however, we have ministerial departments interfering with normal development and under that I foresee a parlous state of affairs in this country over the ensuing 20 years.

Effective planning is the key to any country’s progress. The National Party Government has developed this country into an industrial giant and a virile economic power. The National Party Government has brought about the development we are experiencing in South Africa today. This could only have been accomplished through advance planning, vision and a long-term policy. Contrast this with the fact that 20 years ago the United Party had led South Africa into a cul-de-sac, but then the nation fortunately got rid of them, of what was probably the most awkward government, a government without course and direction, a government which did not know the word “planning”. Out of this chaos the National Party established an economic power, and it is still growing to-day. Through proper planning we got industries which were inspired by the State—such as Iscor, Escom, Sasol, Phalaborwa, Pelindaba and the Orange River Development Scheme. All these undertakings contributed their share towards creating a climate that was favourable for the investment of capital in this country by industrialists, which, in turn, was conducive to further development. The Orange River Scheme, for instance, is most certainly proof of long-term planning which will contribute tremendously to the development of our country. Industrialists did not foresee that the Republic would be able to supply sufficient water, electric power and raw materials. This was nevertheless done, and owing to the fact that the State provided for these basic needs for water, electric power, raw materials and labour, the attention of the world was directed at the Republic, and industrialists were prepared to come here with their capital and to develop our country. That is why I say that we are grateful to the Minister and his officials for having been far-sighted enough to plan adequately for the future. We realize that we must exploit all the potentialities of our country fully.

I should like to draw the Minister’s attention to an area in our country which has lagged behind so far—the Free State and the Northern Cape. We realize that decentralization of our industries has to be encouraged and that border industries play an important role in that process. I should like to call attention to the possibiliites which Bloemfontein and its environs offer for the establishment of border industries. At Bloemfontein there is a concentration of more than 8,000 Coloureds, the largest concentration in the Free State. Heilbron merely has 600 Coloureds, and yet a border industry area has been allocated to them. Since we have more than 8,000 Coloureds in the immediate vicinity of Bloemfontein, I think that we can also lay claim to the establishment of a border area for them. I think we ought to utilize this source of labour. The Coloureds living there have been provided with proper housing, and their residential area borders on a railway line near Bloemfontein.

Then I also want to plead for a Bantu homeland at Thaba ’Nchu. This Bantu homeland is situated near Sannaspos, 19 miles from Bloemfontein on the Thaba ’Nchu railway line, with a tarred road and every other facility. The infra-structure is there already: there is housing and we have a city which offers every facility to the industrialist. In Thaba ’Nchu we have 44,000 Bantu, people whose services can be used profitably. The position of Thaba ’Nchu is comparable with that of Rosslyn near Pretoria. Under the Orange River scheme it will be possible for us to establish in an effective way the two border industries for which I have been pleading.

This links up with the question of water. It was announced recently that water resources were available in the Free State. Amongst others, the Welbedacht Dam project was announced, and consequently the possibility of a scarcity of water being experienced in Bloemfontein was ruled out completely. We are grateful for that scheme. It will bring temporary relief. But there is a third matter I want to raise with the hon. the Minister, and that is the question of the water of the Cole-don which can be led, by force of gravity, across the whole of that central area, even through the Northern Cape. Since the altitude of Jammersdrif is such that we can lead water across the whole of the central area, water can even be led to the Vaalharts Settlement which could bring major relief to the Rand complex. That water can be led along the Modder River and be utilized for the benefit of the riparian owners as well as Bloemfontein City and its environs, the Kaffir River Settlement and the Kalkfontein Scheme lower down. That will be the cheapest water we can make available in the Free State for our industries as well as urban consumption. The Fish River scheme, the Vaal Harts Scheme, the Modder River Dam and the Krugersdrift Dam—as well as the Kaffir River Dam and the Riet River Dam at Kalkfontein, can be benefited in this way. This water scheme will be of very considerable value to Bloemfontein and also an asset to the whole central area. I want to plead that this scheme should be investigated. I believe that there are few places in the country where we have the opportunity of leading water by gravitation and utilizing it effectively in respect of such a central area of the platte-land, where depopulation has already taken place to a very large extent and where it is possible to build up a huge industrial complex through the decentralization of industries. I am convinced that what I am advocating here will not only benefit Bloemfontein or the central part, but can also be utilized effectively in respect of the whole of the Northern Cape area. In addition it can bring major relief as regards the industrial development we have in the Vaal Triangle.

Sir, there are one or two matters which I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister I wish at the outset to confine myself specifically to the declaration of group areas. As the hon. the Minister knows, the system according to the Act is that an investigating committee visits the town or area in which the declaration of a group area is contemplated. In my constituency I have attended between 60 and 70 such investigations. The Minister will understand that the Coloured people, in most cases, are not in a position to engage attorneys or barristers to present their case, and I have done so on their behalf whenever I have been called upon to do so. As a result of this I have gained a little experience of the system. I remember the time when the declaration of group areas resulted in a great deal of fear, dissatisfaction, apprehension, uncertainty and frustration. I submit that the spirit of planning which to-day prevails in the Department did not prevail to the same extent in the days when I first gained some knowledge of the procedure that was followed in connection with the declaration of group areas. It was simply a question of group areas for the various racial groups and in 99 out of 100 cases the Coloureds had to relinquish everything and move out. They were uprooted and the area handed over to the Whites. These people did not understand that economic implications had a bearing on the ultimate decision. The matter was not properly explained to them, and this resulted in a great deal of frustration and apprehension. I wish to state in all modesty that my experience has been that now that it has taken the form of positive development and the people are seeing what advantages are attached to the declaration of group areas, in this sense that instead of living in slums in the towns they are getting new houses and that those people who can afford to build their own homes are moved into planned areas where they can obtain business rights, a completely different spirit prevails and there is a better understanding of the implications In this connection I wish to mention one or two towns specifically, namely. Mossel Bay and Oudtshoorn. I can tell the Minister with the utmost confidence that the change in approach has resulted in development and progress and greatly improved relations and understanding between Coloured and White. But. Sir. there is one aspect that worries me, and that is that in many cases when group areas were declared perhaps eight, nine or ten years ago. and when the investigating committee sat in that town or village, the tendency of development could not be foreseen at the time. While I appreciate that the Department cannot chop and change from one day to the next in proclaiming and deproclaiming areas because in the first instance it would cause uncertainty—people would not know where they stand from day to day—I do feel that in many cases the Department and the Minister should be prepared to reconsider certain aspects of a declared area. Let me take a case in point. Take the case of Uitenhage. I was there two weeks ago. There is an area in Uitenhage which has been declared white, and since the declaration of that group area, the area has been lying completely dormant. No white person is interested in it. It is inhabited predominantly by Coloureds and Malays. I think there is only one white family living there in a little home which in any case will have to be demolished in terms of the health regulations once they move out. The Malay Mosque is in that area The Town Council of Uitenhage addressed a letter to the Regional Representative of the Department of Planning, dated the 23rd April, in which they advocated the re-investigation of that area. I wish to make a plea to the hon. the Minister to consider that application favourably and to order a re-investigation of that area. Sir, I have never yet gone to a Minister or to a head of a Department about any matter in my vast constituency without having first-hand information about it. I go and see for myself instead of relying on hearsay. I do feel that this is a case where a re-investigation is merited.

Then I want to refer to the question of declaring buffer strips. If a buffer strip is declared between a white and Coloured area, what is the future of that wasted area? Naturally we want open spaces when we plan townships or towns, but you cannot convert a buffer strip into a Coloured or a white playground, because it lies in between the two; you cannot leave it undeclared, because then there is going to be intermingling of the races, which is against Government policy. I do feel that it is more practicable to have a street as a boundary and then to have open spaces in the respective areas, open spaces which members of the particular race groups know they are entitled to use.

There is another case which I feel merits the urgent attention of the Department and that is the town of Heidelberg in the Cape. I do feel that if the planning of Heidelberg, as far as the declaration of group areas is concerned, is soberly and objectively reconsidered, it will be different ultimately from what it is to-day. Sir, it is imperative that urgent attention be given to this matter because in the meantime while the declaration stands as it is, the local authority obtains loans and grants from the Department of Community Development for the development of Coloured housing, which is badly needed, and this makes replanning, on an objective basis, impossible or, if not impossible, then very expensive. I do feel that the two cases which I have mentioned here merit urgent reconsideration.

Then I wish to refer to two areas of which I have an intimate knowledge, namely. South End in Port Elizabeth and District Six in Cape Town. South End in Port Elizabeth, which is predominantly Coloured, was declared white. This resulted in a great deal of agitation and vigorous protests. The then Minister visited Port Elizabeth and scrapped the whole thing. It was taken away from the Group Areas Board and declared a slum area to be replanned. My contention is that if that had been done at the outset, there would have been no protests and agitation. As far as District Six is concerned the same mistake was made as in the case of South End by declaring it a white area. Sir, when the investigating committee sat in Cape Town I appeared before it. I spent three days there, not because it falls within my constituency but because certain bodies requested me to do so. I did my duty when I pleaded that it should remain or be declared a Coloured area. Sir. I have known District Six since my childhood years and I agree that you can hardly restore District Six; it has to be rebuilt from the one end to the other. Was it necessary to declare it a white area knowing that no white person will ever go and live there? Could it not have been declared a slum area to be replanned? As you move each family to housing provided in a different area, you then demolish the old building and so you go on until the whole area has been cleared and then you can replan the entire area. In any case, Boulevard East has completely changed the entire character of District Six. I do feel that a very great mistake was made in declaring District Six a white area. It resulted in a very great deal of unnecessary agitation and protest meetings. It also resulted in people being labelled as agitators, and I hope that in future these mistakes will be avoided. After all. if the Government carries on with its planning and alternative accommodation is provided through the Department of Community Development as a result of this planning, it is clear to everyone that what we are doing is to eliminate slums in our bigger towns and cities. I hope that my plea will be borne in mind. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in his report the Secretary of Planning sets out the task of the Department very clearly; when he states that the purpose of economic planning is to promote the economic growth of the country on a co-ordinated basis it is very easy to understand. One of the tasks which is stated very briefly and matter-of-factly in the report is the drawing-up of an economic development programme for South Africa. To everybody reading the report, this is a very clear exposition. One has admiration for the work which has already been achieved by this Department in the short while it has been in existence. The fact that it covers such a wide field, as appears from the report, compels admiration. There is scarcely any aspect of planning in the physical and economic field which is not covered. I want to congratulate the Secretary and his Department, as well as the Minister, on the success they have already achieved in this regard. With a view to the tremendous economic expansion of our country, it is obviously the duty of the State to see to it that the development of points of growth through the establishment of industries is not unilaterally emphasized, i.e. that points of growth will not expand and develop unilaterally to a few gravitational centres, but that the endeavour will be to achieve a sound balance and equilibrium. It is the duty of the State, by means of judicious planning, to establish and initiate a balanced distribution of border industries in particular. In this regard I want to point out that the Western Transvaal region—the entire vast Western Transvaal region—is very sparsely endowed with industrial development.

Order ! Does this not fall under the Department of Industries?

I am referring to it in order to prove my statement.

The hon. member cannot go into details.

One must nevertheless state the desirability of having a balanced distribution of industries for the various regions, and I want to indicate here that the Western Transvaal is sadly lacking in industries. I even include such large towns as Potchefstroom and Klerksdorp, and when I speak of the Western Transvaal, I include my own constituency, and I am after all entitled to speak about that. Or does the planning for the establishment of border industries fall completely outside the scope of the Department of Planning’s tasks? If your ruling is to that effect, I shall resume my seat.

The hon. member can refer to that in passing, but he must not make it his main topic.

I did not make it my main topic. I pointed out that this is also one of the tasks of Planning, and I think I am quite entitled to say that, although I do not want to argue with the Chair.

But that is precisely what the hon. member is doing.

I am of the lopinion that the potential of these regions of the western and north-western Transvaal, with their basic infrastructures, have not yet been properly evaluated. I am of the opinion that the area is very strategically situated, and that the Marico constituency in particular, which borders on Botswana for 200 miles, is situated in the middle of the main Tswana homeland complex; it is between the north-eastern Cape and north-western Transvaal Tswana areas. If we take note of the fact that most of the 123 border industries which have already been established there are in fact simply adjacent to the larger urban and industrial areas, and if one bears in mind that the need is actually for them to be situated further away, on the boundaries of the actual Bantu homelands, in order to achieve a better equilibrium, then it is necessary to emphasize this point as well. The Bantu who sell their labour in large urban border industrial areas such as Rosslyn, spend their money in Pretoria or its surrounding areas, instead of in the further-off homelands where this is extremely necessary. Now it can also be understood that in the initial stages the establishment of border industries in isolated smaller towns has lagged behind owing to the lack of competing infrastructure, as is found in a place like Rosslyn. It is also a good thing that in the initial stages a start was made with border industries near our large cities, in order to make the initial success apparent. It was easier to draw entrepreneurs to those places.

You mean to pretend that it works?

It is working there, and you need not talk about it. But I have said, it is a good thing that it was started in that way. What I am now advocating is that it has perhaps become time we emphasized the establishment of border industries further away, and began to turn our attention to that matter. It will also help the Bantu working there, whom we are drawing away from the large cities in terms of our Physical Planning Act, to take what they have earned there to their homelands in order to spend it there. This will result in a turn-over of money which can stimulate homeland enterprise and economy. That is the point I want to make here, and I think it is important to take note of this. If I can do this, then it follows logically that I can indicate Swartruggens and Zeerust in the Marico constituency as places which are favourably situated for this purpose. As far as basic infrastructure is concerned, they are the obvious places for this. The main railway lines running from the Rand and Pretoria to Rhodesia and also to Kimberley and Cape Town pass through there. We have Escom power. There is an adequate supply of water, inter alia, we have dolomitic water resources.

Order! The hon. member is not dealing with the Vote at all.

If that is the case,. I shall resume my seat.

I found myself listening with a great deal of interest to the speech made by the hon. member for Brakpan, and I must say that like the hon. member for Houghton I find that for once I agree with certain things he said in his speech. I agree with him, firstly, that when a mine comes to the end of its useful life, the fullest possible investigations should be carried out to see that not only the existing ground but also the existing services left over there are put to the best possible use. I was not aware that the seating of spectators at major sporting functions fell within the ambit of the hon. the Minister of Planning, but I want to say that if the Minister can see to it that everybody who buys an expensive seat for a sporting function can get into the grounds, and find a good seat, I am sure he will go down as a very popular Minister.

When the late Dr. Dönges, the then Minister of the Interior, introduced the Group Areas Bill in this House, he emphasized the fact that the Act would be applied with justice and fairness to all race groups in South Africa. He went even further and said that unless a measure was applied with justice and fairness it had no possibility of succeeding. Is it any wonder then that the 40,000 odd members of the Indian community of Johannesburg, who represent 50 per cent of the Indian population of the Transvaal, feel that they have not received the fair treatment that was implied in that statement? This particular section of the Indian population of South Africa—and I say “section” advisedly—have been told by the Government: You shall have only one group area; you shall live in Lenasia and nowhere else. And obviously the Indian community of Johannesburg are concerned and unhappy about the position in which they find themselves. I think the Minister will know that the Indian community have in fact sent a petition to the Prime Minister on this particular subject. This, I think, shows how strongly they feel about the matter. I believe that in the petition they point to the shortcomings of Lenasia, such as housing, business premises, the lack of a hospital, a police station and inadequate transport facilities. I want to say immediately that it is not my intention in the very limited time at my disposal to debate the merits or the suitability of Lenasia as a group area. I would rather confine myself to debating the principle involved, of treating a particular section of our population differently from other sections. For instance, the hon. the Minister might tell us when he replies to this debate why the Indian community of Johannesburg should be confined to one particular area, when we know that the 60,000 odd Coloureds in Johannesburg are given the choice of at least eight different group areas in which to live. We know, too, that the 800,000 Bantu in the Johannesburg urban area have at least six areas in which they can live, and that these areas are situated not more than between 6 and 14 miles from the centre of Johannesburg. I think the Minister also knows that even in Durban where you have 50 per cent of the Indian population concentrated, there are at least 12 different group areas where they can live. Coming a little nearer to Johannesburg, there is Pietermaritzburg, where there, is an Indian population of more or less the same size as that of Johannesburg, and here we find that they have a variety of group areas all situated very close to their place of work. I mention this because in the case of the Indian community of Johannesburg we know that Lenasia is situated at least 20 miles from their places of employment. I want to tell the Minister that I have not raised this matter lightly. I have been asked by many individual Indians, and by Indian organizations, to raise the matter, and I want to say too that when I was approached there was no sense of antagonism shown by the Indians towards the Government. They honestly and sincerely feel that they have not been well treated in comparison with the other race groups in the country. They feel that the Government is acting wrongly in having closed the door, because we know that the Government has in effect said that it is not prepared to reconsider this issue.

Now, one could understand the Government’s attitude if, for instance, the local authority most concerned in the matter, the Johannesburg City Council, were in agreement with the Government that there should be only one group area for the Indians, but we know that over a period of 15 years the Johannesburg City Council has been pleading with the Government to allow another group area within the municipal boundaries of Johannesburg. If it were a question of the land not being available, one could also understand the Government’s attitude in this matter, but we know that the Johannesburg City Council have made a survey and that they in fact suggested five areas of 2,000 acres in extent which could eventually accommodate as many as 11,000 Indian families. I said earlier that I am not raising this matter lightly. I just want to quote very briefly from one or two letters I have received, to show that these people have asked me to raise the matter in the correct spirit. The one letter is written to me by an organization and they say—

Here we have a case where these people feel so strongly about the matter that they are prepared to finance and to develop the area with their own money if the Government would only reconsider its decision. I want to make an earnest appeal to the hon. the Minister to use his influence, which I believe is quite considerable, with the Cabinet, and to ask them at least to re-open this question and to go into the matter very fully to see whether some other area within the municipal boundaries would not be suitable for Indian occupation.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member will not take it amiss of me if I do not associate myself with what he has said. I should prefer to associate myself with what the hon. members for Fauresmith and Gordonia have said here. I appreciate what they said. I have also taken cognizance of the hon. the Minister’s reply, where he mentioned an inquiry in respect of the Western and North Western Cape, and this made me feel that I should also say a few words here in respect of another area, and take up the cudgels for that area. I am referring to the area which is served by what is probably one of the most recent development associations, namely the upper Karoo area. This includes, inter alia, the divisional council areas of Hanover, De Aar, Phillipstown, Colesberg, Britstown, Hopetown and Douglas. On the Cape side that area is situated next to the Orange River Development project. If I take up the cudgels for this area what I really want to do is link this up with the development which is taking place in the river basin itself.

I think it is obvious that one could expect that development to stimulate other development as well. Most of the Cape, with the exception of the urban areas along the coast, consists of rural areas where the chief activity is agriculture. The surface area of the Cape Province is larger than that of all the other Provinces put together, and the largest portion of this consists of rural areas where the chief activity is agriculture. It is clear therefore that industrial development in this Province has to a large extent lagged behind. On the other hand we have places like Cape Town, Port Elizabeth and East London where there are such concentrations of industries that it appears in fact to be an unsound situation. I think that one can justifiably advocate that some of these industries should be transferred to other areas. Let me now furnish a number of reasons why I have selected the aforesaid part of the Cape Province as the area to which the industries should be transferred. The reason, however, for my doing so is not because a large section of the area falls within my constituency. I want to have these transferred there because I link this up with the development taking place within the Orange River Basin. I have another reason as well. Decentralization and development of industries, particularly in a rapidly developing country like South Africa, is probably extremely desirable, and I do not believe any one will make any objection to this. We have many enemies in the world. We are often threatened. It is even possible that we will be attacked. If we take these factors into consideration then we must bear in mind how vulnerable we are in the southern part of the Republic where so many industries are situated along the coast.

Twenty miles west of Kimberley there is a granite koppie which is alleged to be the geographic centre of the Republic. It has almost been blasted out of existence in order to make way for a road, but the remains are still there. This place is of special importance to me, and I shall tell hon. members why. Suppose an enemy decided to attack us. They would have to cover vast distances to get at us there in the middle of the Republic. A Defence Force centre can be established there, and from that units can very easily be sent in all directions. We have national roads and special roads serving that area. There are three main railway lines passing through there. The infrastructure of industrial development is of course of the utmost importance, and factors which play a particular role there are of course the provision of electricity, water, transport, housing and labour.

We believe that when the Orange River project has been fully developed, there will be a sufficient supply of electrical power, water and transport in that area. In regard to labour and housing. I do not think that these will be any more difficult to obtain than in any other area. It is generally accepted and it has been strongly emphasized here in this House, that the position of the Cape is such that it deserves to be assisted and placed in a position where it can supply its own needs to a greater extent, taking into account the extensiveness of the Province and the shortage of sources of taxation. I am not going to elaborate on that now. I believe that it is in the interests of South Africa that efforts should also be made on the part of the Government to establish points of growth within the boundaries of the Cape and make it possible for this Province to develop and make progress.

Mr. Chairman, what I have to say really concerns the hon. the Minister in his medical capacity more than in his capacity as the Minister in charge of this Vote. At the beginning of October, 1967 the hon. the Minister released a statement in which he appointed a committee to make a thorough investigation of all aspects of the need for further medical training and where and when such facilities should be established. The medical training of Whites and non-Whites was to be considered simultaneously. I think the first point, namely to investigate the need for further medical training, is unnecessary. It is obvious that we have a shortage of doctors and I do not think the committee should spend too much time investigating that aspect. The members of this investigating committee all hold very high positions in the fields of learning and I think they will be able to deal with their task quite easily. I feel that planning is not only necessary as far as the future provision of doctors is concerned but the whole field of medical and nursing services as well as allied health services needs replanning. There is a disjointed, unsatisfactory and in some areas chaotic state of affairs as far as the health services are concerned, and I feel it my duty to point out to the Minister some of the deficiencies which do exist.

Firstly let me say we are not producing enough doctors each year, and the Minister knows that. Indeed, that is one of the reasons why he appointed this committee I referred to. How are we to produce more doctors? It is eight years since I first raised this matter in the House and only a few months ago an investigating committee was appointed. That means we have lost eight years. It is disturbing to find that our universities are producing approximately the same number of doctors every year. Between 400 and 450 doctors are being produced each year.

How are we going to improve the position? I said, I think it was during the Health Vote, that I thought that a new faculty should be established in the Orange Free State. I still stand by that. I do not think that we should start enlarging the faculties that exist at the moment, until we have a new faculty that can be based in an area which can be developed in all aspects of health. The kind of thing we read about a day or two ago must not occur again. It is only by starting from the beginning that we can avoid this kind of thing. This is what Dr. Verster, the Director of Hospital Services, said about overcrowding and nursing services—

Can you imagine a hospital being built in the heart of Johannesburg which does not have proper provision for the training of nurses at this time?

Order! What has that to do with the Department of Planning? That is a matter for the Provincial Council.

Mr. Chairman, with due respect, I should like to say that it is this hon. Minister whom I am asking to plan for these services. He issued a statement in this Tegard.

The hon. the Minister cannot plan for services not referred to his Department.

The Minister of Planning has issued a Press statement in which he has asked for this.

It only concerns the appointment of a commission.

Mr. Chairman, I will bow to your ruling but I want to point out that one of the three points to be investigated is where and when such facilities can be established. I want to point out to the hon. the Minister that you cannot establish a faculty of medicine without providing for the concomitant services. This is what has happened in the case of the J. G. Strydom Hospital. They have built a hospital which cost millions of rands and they do not have the proper facilities for the training of nurses. I feel I must bring that to the notice of the House.

That does not fall under this Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I know full well that hon. members opposite will try to avoid discussing this matter.

Order! The hon. member is now reflecting on the Chair.

No, I did not intend that.

Yes, the hon. member Is. I have ruled that this is a provincial matter.

Mr. Chairman, I apologize to you if you think that I am reflecting on the Chair, but I do not mean to. I do want to point out the faults in the planning of our hospital services, not only in the Transvaal, but throughout South Africa. I must have some platform to do this. Whenever I have tried to raise these matters, I have been told that it does not fall under this Minister or that Minister. Somebody must be responsible for it. If the hon. the Minister of Planning is at the head of Planning, I want him to tackle this matter.

Order! The hon. member must now return to the Vote.

That is what I have been trying to do.

No, the hon. member has not been doing so.

Mr. Chairman, I will abide by your ruling and deal with this Press statement of the hon. the Minister of Planning. I will only deal with what concerns the hon. the Minister of Planning and nothing else. I will not divert from this. The medical training of Whites and non-Whites is to be considered simultaneously. This is what the hon. the Minister’s report says. I am referring to the report of the Minister of Planning and not to that of the hon. the Minister of Health. I want to know whether or not he is going to make use of the Baragwanath Hospital, as an entity in itself, or whether he is going to suggest to the Minister of Health or the Minister of Education that they should make use of the Baragwanath Hospital as part of the University of Witwatersrand. The Minister of Planning will say that that is not his business.

This commission is to advise us on this matter.

The commission is going to advise the hon. the Minister. What will the hon. the Minister do when the commission issues its findings?

I will make its findings available to the House.

The Minister of Planning will therefore receive the findings of the commission. I want to know how the hon. the Minister will feel if it should happen that the commission determines that the Baragwanath Hospital, which is at present a non-white hospital, should be used for teaching the Bantu from Soweto and give them the opportunity of becoming doctors at that hospital, under the aegis of the University of the Witwatersrand. Will he agree to that, or will he refuse the University of the Witwatersrand the right to produce Bantu doctors? That is a fair question.

What has that to do with the Department of Planning?

Mr. Chairman, it does concern the Department of Planning.

In what way?

The Minister himself has instituted a committee which is to report to him on the matter I am talking about now. It is to report to him on this very matter.

Hospitals fall under the Provincial Councils.

Mr. Chairman, with due respect, I want to say that the matter with which I am dealing now concerns the Minister of Planning.

This only concerns the appointment of a committee.

Mr. Chairman, it is a pity that you and I have to argue about this matter, because I want to show to the hon. the Minister that he will have to receive this report and act on it. The Minister of Planning, and no other Minister, will receive this report and he will have to act on it. Mr. Chairman, if you feel that I am out of order I will abide by your ruling.

The hon. member is out of order.

Mr. Chairman, then I am prepared to sit down, but this report does discuss the training of Whites and non-Whites. Surely I am entitled to refer to the hon. the Minister’s statement on this matter. I only have ten minutes and I have had to use most of that to argue about my right to speak.

The hon. member’s time could have been put to far better use under the Health Vote.

I know that the hon. the Minister of Health would hate me to talk about this matter because it will show the problems within his Department. I can only appeal to the Minister of Planning to bring this to the notice of the Minister of Health, so that we can at least have a plan in this regard. I am being very serious about this matter. All our health services to-day leave much to be desired. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the former speaker dealt here with what was in fact a Provincial matter. Consequently it is not my intention to follow up on what he has said in that field. There are two matters I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister of Planning. In the news broadcast yesterday morning, and in yesterday’s newspapers, we learned that Dr. A. J. A. Roux of the Atomic Energy Board had said that the coal mines in South Africa would only last another 50 to 60 years, whereas we have believed for many years that our coal reserves would supply South Africa with power for at least 2,000 years. This is unfortunately a matter which affects many of our Departments. I think the hon. Minister should give us an indication of what the situation in this regard is as quickly as possible. It has also been stated quite explicitly that the commission appointed by the hon. Minister to bring out a report in this regard has already submitted its report to the Minister. We are concerned about this situation. It was said in the daily newspapers that there was a commission which would submit a report on this matter to the Minister. If this is the case, we in South Africa would find it reassuring to know what the life of our coal mines is going to be. If their life is only going to be 50 to 60 years then we are faced by a very grave problem, namely that we will have to convert to the use of nuclear power stations very rapidly. If our coal reserves are only going to last another 50 to 60 years, and if we still have to establish these power stations, then we have adequate proof that this will have to be done rapidly. We will probably make use of nuclear power in the years which lie ahead. While I am now discussing this matter, I would also like to ascertain whether the hon. the Minister can give us an indication as to what extent the planning, research and investigation into the desalination of sea water does exist. As we know, the major problem in South Africa to-day is water. In future we will have to think along the lines of desalinating sea water, and the sooner we get our planning in order, the better.

The second matter I want to mention affects several departments. This matter stands in regard to Pretoria and it affects the Department of Bantu Administration and the Department of Transport. The question is the envisaged roads through Pretoria. A report has already been submitted to the City Council of Pretoria, and it is estimated that the east-west and north-south through roads will cost a great deal more than R100 million. There is also the idea of a tube train system for Pretoria. This affects transport throughout the country, as well as tourism.

Order! I think the hon. member must discuss this matter under the Transport Vote.

I thought that I could deal with this matter under the Planning Vote, but very well then, I shall now do so under the Transport Vote.

Mr. Chairman, when the hon. the Minister toured the country during the recess in order to acquaint himself with conditions in various parts of the country, he must have been struck by the contrasts in the Eastern Cape. Firstly one has the rapidly expanding industrial complex in the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage area, a complex which has now partly reached the stage where growth is self-generating, and then on the other side of the area one has the East London-King William’s Town complex, where growth still has to be stimulated. I think the hon. the Minister will agree that the steps taken hitherto have not stimulated growth in that complex as much as he would like to have seen it, or as much as hon. members on this side of the House would have liked to see growth stimulated. There is also a third area. Apart from the time the hon. the Minister spent between Port Elizabeth and East London, I am not certain whether the hon. the Minister went into the big hinterland of the Eastern Cape itself, namely the hinterland of the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage complex and the hinterland of the East London-King William’s Town complex. There we have some of the most depressed areas in the country, namely the Cape Midlands and the areas immediately to the east of the Cape Midlands. If we look at map 10 of the development atlas of the Republic we see how very low the per capita income is and at what a low level economic activity is in that vast area. There are nine districts in that area, which I do not want to name because my time is limited. In half of those districts, there is a per capita income of less than R150 per annum and in the other half the per capita income lies between R150 and R200 per annum. This is about half of what it is in the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage complex. It is clear that in these areas, because they lack many of the basic mineral resources such as coal and iron, that there will have to be a sustained and all-out effort to get some development going. Not merely are certain parts of that area not developing, but it is actually retrogressing and is one of the parts of the country where the problem of European depopulation is at its most acute.

Various methods have been suggested whereby the development of the area could be stimulated and in particular whereby the development of that industrial complex in the King William’s Town-East London area could be stimulated. I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to one of the disadvantages that the whole of the Eastern Cape is suffering from, including the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage complex, namely expensive electrical power. The figures for the Border undertaking of Escom show that the average price per unit of electricity sold in 1966, according to the latest report of the Electricity Supply Commission, was 1.1204 cents per unit. If we go to the other extreme and we look at the cheapest area in the country as far as electricity is concerned, we find that on the Rand and in the Orange Free State the price was only .4117 cents per unit. In other words, in the Border area and in the Eastern Cape as a whole served by the Escom Border undertaking, the electricity was three times as expensive as on the Rand and in the Orange Free State. Cheaper electrical power is a basic requirement for proper industrial growth and for proper economic growth in general in these depressed areas. One of the most urgent needs of the Eastern Cape as a whole is that the whole of the Eastern Cape should be linked to the new national grid of the Electricity Supply Commission, the 400 KV-grid, as is going to be the case with the Western Cape and Natal. If this is not done, then not merely is there not going to be any progress there, but we are also liable actually to have industries moved out from the Border-King William’s Town complex, for example, as is already happening. As an example, I can mention that the Fiat motor cars are no longer assembled in East London. They are now assembled at Rosslyn, because they are nearer to the main market of the Witwatersrand and they are free of the disadvantage of expensive power. We know why the power in the Eastern Cape is expensive. In the first instance it is because the generating units and the power stations are small. There are a large number of small generating stations scattered all over the area. The cost of generation decreases with the size of the station and with the size of the generating set. The capital cost per kilowatt installed, for example, at the proposed new Arnott station is going to be something like R75, whereas in one of the Border stations, namely the Westbank No. 2 station, it is R156, i.e. exactly double. The second reason is naturally the cost of transporting the coal. I want to quote from the report of Escom to show how big an effect this has on the cost of electricity. This particular paragraph relates to the cost of transporting coal to the Western Cape, but the same principle holds as far as the Eastern Cape is concerned. It says—

In other words, by bringing that transmission line down to the Western Cape, the electricity in the Western Cape is eventually going to be one-third cheaper than it would have been if another coal powered station had been built in the Western Cape. The position in regard to the Eastern Cape is exactly the same. I know that there are difficulties. It is a question of getting potential big power users such as all the municipalities and the Railways to take part. I want to impress upon the hon. the Minister that unless this question of the provision of cheaper electrical power is solved, there is going to be a brake on the development throughout the whole of the Eastern Cape and particularly in the King William’s Town-East London industrial complex. I know that this is one of the things which has been enjoying the attention of a committee of the Resources and Planning Advisory Council. I hope that this is one of the matters that the hon. the Minister is going to give continued and urgent attention to.

Mr. Chairman, it is quite obvious that the hon. member who has just sat down knows his part of the country, the Eastern Cape, very well. I must say that, to my regret, my visit to that region was far too brief. I hope to pay another visit, if not this year, sometime next year. Apart from that, may I say that that area, and especially the depressed areas the hon. member referred to, are very much under consideration in my department. The Berlin area, in particular, is being given special attention at this very moment.

He mentioned figures in regard to the supply of electricity. I do not have the figures before me, but I know it is also one of the difficulties in the establishment of industries. I do not think the difficulties he mentioned are quite as great as he put them, but I will certainly ask my department to look into that matter and to give me a report on that particular aspect.

*The hon. member for Sunnyside touched upon the question of coal. It is correct that Dr. Roux said this, but the hon. member is also aware that at this stage we have had a very thorough and exhaustive investigation instituted into the question of our coal reserves. I think I can say at this stage that the old prediction that we have sufficient coal for 2,000 years, is to my mind an unacceptable one. Personally, I am concerned about the situation in regard to coal in the future. I have not received a report as yet. A brief report has in fact been submitted to me merely for the purpose of reporting how much progress has been made, but so far I have not received the report.

Under the Mining Vote I made a full statement in regard to the desalination of seawater. But in passing I just want to say that according to the methods used at present it would be unremunerative to incorporate it with the nuclear power-station which, it is hoped, will come into operation in 1968, provided that the Electricity Supply Commission takes a decision to that effect.

The question of through-roads is not a matter which falls within the scope of the Department of Planning, with the proviso that it will in fact be reviewed by the Capital City Planning Committee. There is a central committee consisting out of myself, the Administrator of the Transvaal and the chairman of the City Council Executive. This matter will in fact be considered once the report of the Capital City Planning Committee has been submitted to us.

†I would like to point out to the hon. member for Rosettenville that it is not my function as Minister of Planning to plan the medical services of the Republic. But I will certainly bring his problems to the notice of the Minister of Health.

*As regards the committee on the training of doctors, we expect the report to be available at the end of this year or early next year. They are hard at work on it at the moment. The hon. member for De Aar, like other hon. members, drew my attention to the importance of his region. It is correct that the central point of the Republic is in the vicinity of Kimberley. Viewed from a security angle, it seems to me as though it may perhaps be the obvious place for a munitions depot. But I can assure the hon. member that there is not one single area in the Republic which cannot be inspected by my Planning Adviser and my Department. That assurance I can give the hon. member.

In a very neat way and in great earnest the hon. member for Johannesburg (North) brought the case of the Indian community of Johannesburg under our notice. Nor did the hon. member hesitate to say that he was doing so on their behalf, and that they had approached him. I think the one piece of information he did not give us, was that he was speaking on behalf of the United Party City Council of Johannesburg, for their views are the same.

That is all right.

I do not say that it is wrong, but I just want to put the facts straight. I want to say that in Lenasia there is enough room to house the total Indian population of Johannesburg. In the second place, I heard that the City Council of Johannesburg had already decided to incorporate Lenasia with the Johannesburg municipal area. In the third place, I cannot for the life of me understand why the hon. member uses the various areas near Durban, Pietermaritzburg and other cities as examples and regards the one area in Johannesburg as being inadequate.

But they have a choice there.

But the fact of the matter is that the respective areas at the other centres are the result of the course of hisory. In Johannesburg there is one area which is so large that it can also comprise various residential areas. I should imagine that it would be much better for the Indian community or for any other community to live together in one area, where facilities for their collective use may be developed for them on a large scale. I think that in view of the fact that there is one large area at the moment, it would be totally wrong to start a process of fragmentation. For that reason I regret to say that I cannot accede to the hon. member’s request.

The hon. member also mentioned that the Indian community would be prepared to make a financial contribution towards making the implementation of their request possible. For the sake of South Africa I want to say in this regard that those people who attack South Africa so often and have all sorts of things to say about how we treat our population group, ought to take cognizance of what the financial means are of the Indian group that is allegedly being oppressed in South Africa, if they are able to make an offer like that.

Only a small proportion of them.

But I want to repeat that the hon. member presented the case to us in a very neat way.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein (District) spoke about the problems experienced in his constituency, and he mentioned Thaba ’Nchu in particular. I visited the area myself. Like other areas, consideration is definitely being given to Thaba ’Nchu as well. Up to now we have been finding it very difficult to establish industries there. But I can tell the hon. member that in the light of the establishment problems we are experiencing, the plea he made for that area will not pass unnoticed. He also suggested that the area situated 19 miles from Thaba ’Nchu should be released for industrial development. I investigated the matter, as the hon. member knows, but it is a matter which will unfortunately entail a considerable number of establishment problems, and in this regard I cannot give any assurances.

†I shall deal in detail, and also in general, with what the hon. member for Houghton said in a few moments. The hon. member quoted what the F.C.I. had said. Up to this moment the F.C.I. have not brought a single case to my notice where they are having any difficulties.

They are against the whole law.

In principle they are against the law, and I am not going to argue this point, because the principle has been accepted by this Parliament. All I can say to the F.C.I. is that it will be to their good and to the benefit of their members if they accept the situation, because they cannot do anything about it. That is the law of the country.

They can change the government sometimes.

Unfortunately, neither the F.C.I. nor the hon. member can even change the government.

You never can tell.

They have been trying so hard, and up to now they have had no success at all.

The hon. member also raised the question of industrial areas where mines come to a standstill. She also pleaded that these areas are admirably suited for industrial development. I quite agree. It can be done in very many cases. I want to make it quite clear that, taking into consideration the hundreds of morgen of industrial land available on the Witwatersrand, I am not prepared to give permission for any more industrial land to be established. But if it is good planning, if this land is so admirably suited for industrial purposes, I am quite prepared to consider a swop for present industrial land, which can be perhaps very much better used for residential purposes. So this land can become industrial land, but subject to this qualification.

*The hon. member for Brakpan also raised the question of mines which were coming to a standstill, and wanted to know whether it was not possible for us to use those facilities for further industrial development. I shall deal with that matter later on, but I may just inform the hon. member that this is a matter to which real attention is being given at the moment by the department and specifically by the division dealing with physical planning. The hon. member will also recall that in the course of the debate on the Physical Planning Bill I made it very clear that in the implementation of the Act the question of the mines that were coming to a standstill and the question of the development of industries there would have to be faced very squarely.

†The hon. member for Port Natal raised the question of group areas for Indians and pleaded for those people who had suffered. Obviously the shifting of people of whatever colour from one area to another brings about a certain amount of hardship; there is no getting away from it, but I can assure the hon. member that in the application of the Group Areas Act, which is not the function of my department but of the Department of Community Development, they try to see that as little hardship as possible is caused.

*The hon. member for Outeniqua referred to Uitenhage and Heidelberg. I agree with the hon. member that the fact that the sword of deproclamation hangs over people’s heads, causes uncertainty, and that is something we want to eliminate at all costs, but, on the other hand, it may not stand in the way of the department to effect deproclamation if it is in the best interests of everybody concerned. As regards Heidelberg, over a period of years this matter has been examined very thoroughly from every angle, and I doubt whether we can effect an improvement in that regard, but I gave the hon. member the undertaking that I would discuss the whole matter with him personally and go into the merits of the case. I shall keep that promise. As regards Uitenhage, the application for deproclamation has not reached the department as yet. We have no knowledge of it as yet. But the question of deproclamation at Uitenhage may in fact be a matter which we can consider. Improvements may perhaps be effected there.

The hon. member for Smithfield suggested that South Africa could in fact have one single capital. He said that such a capital could possibly be situated in the Free State, and requested that we should at least have an investigation instituted in his regard. Mr. Chairman, this matter rouses great interest. Pretoria is interested in it; Cape Town is interested in it and the Free State is interested in it. It is an emotional matter. Therefore I do not want to leave his matter hanging in the air. Consequently I want to give the hon. member a frank reply. I can appreciate that people feel very strongly about the question of a capital; I can appreciate that people hold various views in regard to this matter, but let me state very clearly that I feel as strongly about the traditions and customs that have brought us where we are to-day and have given rise to the present situation, where Cape Town is the legislative capital and Pretoria the administrative capital. I want to state very clearly that unless I am specifically instructed to do so, I myself will do nothing to initiate such an investigation. To my mind Cape Town must remain the legislative capital, Pretoria the administrative capital and Bloemfontein the judicial capital. Therefore I want to squash any speculation by saying that at this stage we shall definitely not initiate such an investigation.

Then I should like to mention a few things in connection with the Physical Planning Act. I shall start by mentioning a few general points. It was said here that 19th January was an inopportune time. The industrialists could have informed us of that in advance, but they did not do so. I do not take it amiss of them, but the department gave instructions to the effect—and this is the way the Act is administered—that if by 19th January an industrialist had failed to comply with the regulation in respect of Bantu labour, he should not be penalized. There is, therefore, no problem in this regard, nor do we experience any problems. Secondly, it is true that in this transitional period industrialists have in fact entered into financial and other commitments in regard to the purchase of land and even the drafting of building projects. In cases where they apply for Bantu labour and where they have entered into financial and other commitments, these factors are well and truly taken into account in the transitional period, and they are not penalized either. However, I want to emphasize the fact that this is a transitional period. Then there is the question of industrialists who have concluded certain contracts. Such contracts are also taken into account and provision is also made for them so that those industrialists may not be placed in an unfavourable position, i.e. in regard to contracts already concluded, as a result of the implementation of the legislation which came into operation on 19th January.

The hon. member for Brakpan, and others, referred to the question of the ratio between Whites and Blacks in the industrial sector. Let me make it very clear that I am not prepared to lay down at any time a formula for industries as a whole. Secondly, I am not prepared to accept a certain ratio between white and Bantu employees in an industry as a norm. In fact, I am not prepared to lay down any percentage concession in regard to the employment of new Bantu labourers as an absolute norm. I stand by the way we have been handling this matter up to now. The experience we have gained so far, has furnished us with ample proof to the effect that every industry is an entity on its own; that one is dealing with individual matters. We treat each case on its merits and not according to a general norm. I want to state explicitly that the industrial sector will under no circumstances obtain from me or from my department a determination of certain norms. Each industry approaches the department with its individual problems which we try to solve and consider in a humane way, and that will be the policy in future. It is incumbent upon the Government—and I feel that this also applies in the administration of this Act—to adopt an open and very sympathetic attitude towards the smaller industry and the smaller industrialist as far as the employment of Bantu in the large metropolitan areas is concerned. In this respect I am referring to one-man-industries or two-man-industries. There are many such industries on the Witwatersrand, in Port Elizabeth and in other places, industries which find it impossible to move to the border areas and which cannot effect a considerable increase in the number of Bantu employed in the industrial sector. As far as new industries are concerned, I also want to say that the metropolitan areas should accept that they are in a desperate position as compared to border industries. I shall specifically use my department and the powers I have under the Physical Planning Act to make it very difficult or impossible for new industries which can be established in border areas, to be established in the metropolitan areas.

How will you decide whether it is possible or not?

The decision in this regard is not a difficult one. If the industry concerned can, according to the information with which we are furnished by that industry itself, go to the border areas, it will not be permitted to be established in Johannesburg or Port Elizabeth or Cape Town, because we cannot allow the cities to become blacker and blacker and the Bantu homelands to be drained of Bantu, whilst it is possible for us to establish industries for them on the borders.

What about the existing population in places like Soweto?

I am coming to that. On this specific point I want to say that in spite of all the opposition and the very considerable antipathy that have been built up since 1960 by hon. members opposite and their Press— nobody else—the border industries have become an unprecedented success. In our homelands approximately 35,000 Bantu men are being made available for our labour market every year. We know that roughly 20 per cent, or one out of every five Bantu men, take up employment in the industrial sector. In other words, of those 35,000 Bantu, approximately 7,000 will be or can be assimilated in the industrial sector. Over the past six years, from 1960 to 1966, an average of 5,000 per annum was assimilated in border industries. If, under circumstances where border area development was made to seem so suspect, we have been able to assimilate 5,000 of the 7,000 who were available for employment in the industrial sector, I maintain that we have every right to say that we shall be able to make a huge, tremendous success of border industry development in South Africa.

As regards the observation the hon. the Minister has just made, does it also relate to the Ciskei/Transkei complex? Will the same sort of ratio apply there?

Yes. I am referring to border industries as a whole. Mr. Chairman, let me furnish you with another figure: Over the six-year period from 1960 to 1966, 161,000 Bantu men became available for the industrial sector in the country as a whole. Of this total of 161,000, 49,000 were assimilated in border industries over these six years. In other words, over the first six years of border area development one-third of everybody who became available for employment was assimilated in those industries. If this is not an achievement, then I do not know what an achievement is.

That figure is not correct.

The attitude adopted by this side of the House is that it does not matter where industries develop—it is still in the interests of South Africa—but the attitude adopted by the hon. member for Houghton is that if this development does not take place in Johannesburg, it is lost to South Africa.

Nonsense.

I want to make it clear here that the implementation of this legislation will not impede industrial development in the country as a whole, and I want to repeat my invitation to all industrialists and to the directorates of all companies that are interested in the industrial sector: Hold round-table conferences and decide for yourselves how soon you can go to the border areas. There are benefits for the industrialists, and those who have gone there, are not sorry that they have done so.

Those benefits are not good enough.

Sir, that hon. member’s constituency has derived greater benefits from border area development than has any other constituency in South Africa. This dispute about this legislation, i.e. the difference between the attitude of the United Party and that of the National Party, is once again the old confrontation between the policy of separation on the one hand, and, on the other hand, the policy of integration. The United Party does not want separation; that is why they are against this legislation. The greatest folly in this debate was the question asked by the United Party: “What is integration?” They do not know their own child. Since when is once ashamed of one’s own child? “What is integration?” The United Party wants integration in various spheres. It wants to effect it in a few ways, and it also wants to cast suspicion on this Act. They want to obstruct it by scaring the Whites, since these things may give rise to independence for the Blacks. On the other hand, it also wants to create uncertainty for the black man as far as the implementation of this legislation is concerned. But it goes further than that. It wants to offer the black man integration [Interjections.]

Order!

It wants integration in this Parliament as well. [Interjections.] In implementing this legislation I shall bring about more and more separation, but the Opposition wants more and more integration. Any measure which shows as much as a sign of success, such as border areas, dismays them. It is bad news to the United Party.

Allow me to conclude, as far as this Vote is concerned, by saying a few words about the Physical Planning Act. I do so because there may perhaps be some confusion owing to all the sordid things that were written and said in this regard. There is confusion amongst a large section of the public, because they do not know what a border area is.

Tell us what it is.

I shall do so, but before I do so, I want to say why there has to be a border area. Here in South Africa we have the unique situation that we have been given, unlike any other country in the world, a country for each nation.

What about the Coloureds?

In this respect we are only dealing with the Bantu under this legislation. [Interjections.]

Order!

The fact of the matter is that, although we consider North Africa to be a geographic entity, it does not constitute one country; it does not have a Prime Minister and it does not have a President and it does not have a one Parliament.

North Africa, like West Africa, is a geographic entity but comprises a number of countries. And the same applies to South Africa, or Southern Africa. Here we have the white Republic of South Africa. We have Lesotho, Botswana and Swaziland, and we have the Transkei and the other Bantu areas. In implementing this legislation we shall, in spite of the United Party, see to it that the Bantu have employment and that it is possible for them to do a good day’s work. But at the same time we shall see to it that that day’s work is done, not by allowing them to migrate to the major cities, but by ensuring that they find homes for themselves in their own homeland. In other words, we have a border industry area where the industry belongs to the white man, and where the industry is situated on white man’s land. But the black man who works there will be living on his land which can never be alienated from him, where he can live with his wife, his children and his people and serve on his town council and on the board of his territorial authority, and where he has the opportunity, as we see it in the Transkei, of becoming chief minister of a member of his cabinet. That is what is meant by border area development.

But apart from the economic benefits it involves and apart from the fact that we are obviating the necessity of having to provide the Bantu, at very great expense, with accommodation and transport facilities and everything that goes with it in Johannesburg, we are in this way affording the Bantu every opportunity of realizing themselves socially and politically, without bringing about integration with the Whites. When I say that, I believe that in implementing the Physical Planning Act we shall accomplish one thing in the Republic of South Africa.

Order! Hon. members at the back must listen to the Minister’s reply.

Sir, I do not take it amiss of those hon. members, for they know this policy as well as I do. But the fact of the matter is that it has become necessary to tell hon. members opposite what a border area is, in view of the fact that they are making such foolish requests to me; for instance, that I should also declare Port Elizabeth to be a border area or that I should declare Soweto to be a Bantustan, as they call it. But let me say this to hon. members, and they can repeat this to the industrialists. In implementing this legislation we shall not impede industrial development, but we shall definitely and without any flexibility not permit large numbers of Bantu to be lured to the cities, as has been the case in the past. That is our whole starting-point. That is also the difference, I repeat, and the gist of the clash of policies, i.e. between the integration policy of the other side and the policy of this side of the House, namely that of bringing about more and more separation between the Whites and the Blacks.

Votes put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 52,—Posts, Telegraphs, Telephones and Radio Services, R107,378,000, and Loan Vote C,—Telegraphs, Telephones and Radio Services, R38,450,000:

I am not going to ask for the privilege of the half hour, because our time for the Estimates is so limited. I shall try to say all I want to say within the brief period of ten minutes which I have at my disposal.

The hon. the Minister of Posts has now been in office for four months and I think we are entitled to ask him to give account of what he has accomplished during this period. I must say that there are signs, with him in charge of this large Department, which are causing us concern to-day. He was a new broom, but we are wondering whether the new broom has swept as clean as one might have hoped. One wonders whether the shadow of the dead hand of the Albert Hertzog past is perhaps not still resting on this Department.

We have heard of a new dispensation and we are asking what progress has been made with this new dispensation. I know that good progress is being made with the legislation, but there is preparatory work which can already be done and we are asking to what extent this has been done. There are two tests to which we must subject the Minister and his Department to-day, and these are the following. Firstly, is the public satisfied with what they are receiving from the Department, and secondly, is the staff satisfied with what they are receiving to-day?

Let us consider the services to the public first. In my opinion there is the overriding fact of the tremendous shortage, the inexplicable, increasing shortage, in the telephone services in South Africa to-day. Less than a year ago the editor of Dagbreek wrote (translation)—

This was said by the editor of Dagbreek, not by me. Let us look at the shortage on three different dates, i.e. on 31st March in three different years. On 31st March, 1963, the shortage was only 11,000, without special legislation for this new dispensation. Four years later, in 1967, the telephone shortage was 48,000; and to-day it is close on, if not already more than 60,000. The Minister himself does not know what it is to-day. He only knows what it was on 31st March. He could not even ask his staff whether the pile of applications was increasing or diminishing in size.

I hope he can give us more information today. Since this Minister became the Minister, the telephone shortage has unfortunately increased by 5,000 and then we hear this unfortunate statement of his that it will take at least five years before these shortages are eliminated. Something is wrong.

In the past they were able to reduce the telephone shortages; why can it not be done to-day? Why is the Post Office marking time? I know that new telephones are being installed, but not enough of them. This is the major problem; this is the great backlog which has to be made up. We must bear in mind that these telephone shortages are hampering the economy. They are hampering progress, they are causing time and money to be wasted, and something has to be done about the matter.

I could speak about many other matters, but I have only ten minutes. I could speak about the telephone directory printing contracts, about the inexplicable printing contract for the telephone directory of the Peninsula, which was taken away from a company which had had it for years and was given to a subsidiary of Die Vaderland and Dagbreek in Johannesburg, while the tender of the Cape firm was lower and the paper which is now being used is of poorer quality too. I could speak about the compulsory payment of deposits by telephone subscribers on the Witwatersrand, about the curtailed delivery services and the delayed deliveries of letters, and about the increase in rates last year. I looked up the figures the other day, and I found that in America there are trunk-call rates which decreased by 76 per cent over a period of 30 years; from 1932. It is 76 per cent cheaper to-day to telephone between Boston and San Francisco, a distance of 3,000 miles, than it was 30 years ago.

Neither will it help the hon. the Minister to present me with the explanation that the telephone services have expanded enormously since 1948. Let me tell him this. There are about three times as many telephones to-day as there were in 1948, but let me also tell him that in Rhodesia there are six times as many telephones to-day as there were in 1948, in the Netherlands four times as many, in Italy six times as many, and, in Japan ten times as many. This is one of the major problems and the hon. the Minister will be tested in terms of how he succeeds in eliminating these telephone shortages.

I come to the second point I want to raise, and that is the problem of the large staff who work so hard and with such self-sacrifice in this large department, this staff who have to work 200,000 hours overtime per week, which is more than in the case of virtually all the other State Departments together, except the Railways. We on this side share their deep disappointment at what was announced in this Budget in connection with their wages and salary scales. It was so serious that the Postal and Telegraph Association took the quite extraordinary step last month of convening what they call a special congress in connection with the salaries and wages of Post Office staff. The hon. the Minister himself knows how this is constituted. The various districts are also represented in it. They call it a special congress. As far as I know, something like this has not happened for a very long time. It shows that the problem is so serious that a special congress had to be called. And I am not the one to say this. Here we have the Postal and Telegraph Association, which represents tens of thousands of Post Office workers, saying (translation)—

His own people are saying this.

Why do you not read the statement made by the Postal Association?

I wish I had the time to do all this. If I had had a few half hours as the Minister has, I would have done so. We must bear in mind that the Post Office has the smallest number of top posts of all the departments, and therefore the smallest opportunities for promotion. Most of the other departments have a 40-hour working week, but the Post Office does not have this. The other departments have a five-day working week, but the Minister’s Department does not have this. 200,000 hours of overtime are worked per week, and they are only paid l⅙ and 1⅓ times normal pay, while in the Department of the Government Printer they receive 1½ to double pay for Sundays. These are the hard facts which are reflected in the continual resignations by members of the Post Office staff. One out of six of the permanent staff resigned last year, which means 4,000 out of 26,000, and in the case of the temporary staff one out of four, or 2,000 out of 8,000, resigned. These numbers are in respect of the white staff. I am not even mentioning the non-white staff. No wonder that the S.A. Telecommunications Association—I do not know whether the Minister reads their magazine Live Wire—wrote the following in last month’s edition (translation)—

These are not my words; these things are being said by the large technical association of the Post Office. This is the position. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, we had begun to think that the hon. member for Orange Grove had perhaps been cured of his ailment of always being negative, and continually being merely insulting and derogatory. I thought he could get over that habit of his, but it seems now that for a few weeks only the. hon. member suffered a relapse or was in a semi-conscious state, call it what you will, for he has now returned with precisely the same pessimistic theme he voices in this debate every time. We on this side have now tired of the hon. member’s habit of beginning the debate, regardless of how high the level it was on, on such a low note that nobody can join him in what he has to say. I am certain the hon. the Minister will reply to the attacks made.

I would just like to mention a few points in regard to the telephones, about which that side has kicked up such a tremendous fuss. The hon. member probably knows that the former Minister said—and this Minister repeated it—that as a result of the increased call charges introduced last year, and the fact that it is possible for the telephone service to make use of that money itself, as well as the fact that the Post Office is now controlling its own finances, it will now be possible to make up the backlog in due course. Does the hon. member expect miracles to be performed in three months? Did he think millions of telephones were lying around, waiting to be installed? Did he think the former Minister was simply too inadequate to have them installed? What lay behind the hon. member’s argument? What did he think? Does the hon. member realize that the number of telephones installed has increased during the past year by as much as 60,000? That means 5,000 per month. This has taken place despite staff shortages, and a shortage of certain technical equipment which was experienced owing to financial problems. It cannot be expected that the shortage will be supplied within three months. The shortage has arisen over a period of years, owing to the circumstances prevailing. I think the hon. member was unreasonable in his attack on this aspect of the service. Maintenance services must continually be rendered. The number of telephones in South Africa has increased from 1,119,000 to 1,179,900, which means an increase of 60,000, and all those telephones must be maintained. They must continually be serviced and repaired. That was the first mean attack.

Order! Did the hon. member say it was a “mean” attack?

Yes, Mr. Chairman, was it not a mean attack?

Order! The hon. member must withdraw that.

I withdraw it. In any case, I think it was a reprehensible attack, if that expression is allowable. The hon. member once again expressed criticism of the tender for the printing of the telephone directory. Does the hon. member know that tenders are called for the printing of the telephone directory? Does he know that the lowest tender is accepted? That is why the particular company which is at present printing the directory, was granted the contract. If the hon. member has other figures or facts at his disposal, he must kindly make them available to us. However, this is the true state of affairs. It was a public tender, and it was also the lowest tender.

The point I really want to make here this afternoon is the following: The Post Office, of course, is a tremendously large undertaking. It has grown into a huge undertaking. I want to furnish a few figures to indicate how enormous the organization of the Port Office is. The cash revenue of the Post Office was R121 million last year. The business turnover of the Post Office was R732 million in one financial year, an increase of R57 million on the figures for last year. At present the Post Office has a staff of 50,000, which of course is not a small number, nor a small factor. I want to state one or two other facts before I make my actual plea. At the moment there are 1,700,000 post office sayings accounts in the Republic and the credit balance amounts to R134.5 million. This is a large undertaking, which works with large amounts.

Now my plea is this. With the legislation recently passed, I really do not think that the Post Office will be able to continue this indecisive position. What I actually mean is this. Economically and financially the Post Office is to a certain extent free of the Treasury, but as far as its staff is concerned, it remains linked to the Public Service Commission. I think that is an untenable position. I think it will remain an untenable position if we want to operate the Post Office on an economic basis and make it financially independent, to keep it linked to the Public Service Commission. We will be compelled to take over the control over the officials, and loosen the strict ties with the Public Service Commission. That is the plea I want to make this afternoon. It is quite clear to me that on the basis of economic considerations it will be essential that this should be done. There are a few facts which I want to mention in the few minutes at my disposal.

Firstly, the Post Office staff works shifts which differ entirely from the hours worked by other public servants. They often work over week-ends, something which is not found in the Public Service. Therefore a clerk in the Post Office cannot be compared with a clerk in the Public Service. One cannot say that they have the same grade and must therefore receive the same salary. One cannot do that. The ties linking the Post Office to the Public Service Commission will have to be loosened so that the Post Office can adopt a different approach.

There is another problem as well. From the nature of the composition of the Post Office, and its problems, there are not many opportunities for promotion. Let me mention an example now. There are, for example, 40 sorters in one office, with one supervisory officer over them. All 40 men are now waiting for the one senior post. All they can do is wait. All 40 of them are placed on the same scale, i.e. that of a certain grade of clerk in the Public Service, and are then paid the salary attached to that grade. Because they cannot get promotion, they subsequently resign and leave. The Post Office man finds himself in a different position from that of the Public Servant who is likely to get promotion soon, or for whom the possibility of promotion does exist, and we consequently feel that the Post Office employees must receive salary adjustments, apart from the Public Service which will make the post to which no opportunities of promotion attaches attractive enough to ensure that the Post Office employee will remain on, be happy and earn a decent salary.

I now want to deal with another aspect, in connection with the salaries of certain senior officials. I do not want to advocate increased salaries, because I know that I cannot do so. However, let me mention a few facts. The Postmaster of Johannesburg is earning far too little for the post he occupies. Let me explain. The Johannesburg Post Office handles considerably more than R20 million in cash each year. The Johannesburg Postmaster, who is responsible for every cent of that amount, receives only R7,500 per year. Compare that with any private business which has a turnover of R20 million and more per year, and compare it with the salary of the managing director. We find the same position here in Cape Town. According to my information, this Post Office has an annual turnover of R13 million.

But you are now agreeing with us, and a moment ago you were opposed to us?

Apparently the hon. member thinks that only that side has the right to bring facts to the attention of the Committee. It is essential that these things be mentioned clearly and emphatically. Nevertheless, the salary of the Postmaster of Cape Town, is fixed at only R6,600 per year. I do not want to intimate that the Public Service is better or worse, or anything of that kind. I only want to state that the composition and the work of the Post Office staff is different from that of the Public Service. It is completely different, and that is why we will naturally have to proceed to free it from the Public Service Commission. They cannot be forced into that straitjacket and remain that way. That simply cannot work. It is essential to get out of it. I know there are various difficulties in this regard, but I nevertheless want to make an appeal to the Minister to take active steps himself to make the Post Office staff more independent of the Public Service Commission if the undertaking is to function economically and if we take the financial aspects into consideration, i.e. if we deal with the matter as it should be dealt with. That is the plea I want to make here this afternoon. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Randfontein has referred to the question of postal services and the difficulty in regard to the staff of the Post Office. We on this side have been saying these things for a long time and we can only hope that the new Act will enable the hon. the Minister and his Department to effect some improvements. There are indeed much-needed improvements.

I want to come back to another matter and that is in connection with the handling of express delivery letters. I want to quote a specific case which I believe highlights an existing anomaly in this connection. The case concerns two letters which were posted in Johannesburg before noon on the same day for delivery in Durban. The one letter was posted in an envelope containing an air mail sticker and bearing a 3 cents stamp. It arrived in Durban and was delivered by the usual postman at 10.30 a.m. on the following day. The other letter, also posted before noon, was posted by express post and it arrived at its destination by personal messenger at 4.30 p.m. on the following day. That is approximately 5½ hours later than the other letter. The recipient of these two letters was perturbed because both letters were of an urgent nature. When inquiries were made he was told that the express letter rate of 12½ cents included only surface postage. The letter lacked the extra half cent which would have made it possible for the letter to be sent by airmail. He was also informed that the additional charge of ten cents provided for the delivery by hand at the point of destination. I believe that this is not an isolated case. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that there is a simple solution. I should like to ask him to instruct his Department to take the steps to provide for this solution. I suggest that if the charge for express letters is made to include airmail postage, irrespective of whether the letter goes by airmail or surface mail, as long as it goes by the fastest and the most expeditious route, there should be no difficulty and no delay. It seems absurd to me that the letter should travel by train and take approximately 15 hours to reach its destination when it could have gone from Johannesburg to Durban in a mere 40 minutes all because of a half cent shortage in the postage. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that there should be no difficulty about this. I say this because if this is the standard rule of acceptance of letters, when they are under-posted and: do not carry the airmail charge, they should not be accepted. If, by any chance, they are sent by a non-white messenger who does not understand the position, I believe that they should be dispatched and that the recipient would be only too pleased to pay any surcharge if he could get his letter by the shortest and most expeditious route. I trust that the hon. the Minister will give consideration to this suggestion and do something to remove this anomaly which causes a great deal of distress to people who expect express post at express rates.

I come now to mail delivery services in general. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that mail delivery services are not keeping pace with speedier transport. I want to draw his attention to the fact that as long ago as 1963 the Assocom conference passed a resolution drawing the attention of the hon. the Minister’s predecessor to this fact. In answer to a question I put to the hon. the Minister on the 5th March the hon. the Minister conceded that he had received complaints in regard to mail deliveries, but that the complaints were not classified in any particular way. He said—

I want to refer to the Durban complex, because I believe that there is no particular manpower problem there. Here again I quote figures which have been supplied to me by the hon. the Minister from time to time. The number of postmen who are employed in the Durban complex has increased by 84 per cent since 1962. The number of white and Coloured postmen has remained more or less static. The number of Indian postmen now employed has increased 11 times and the number of Bantu postmen five times. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that he has a ready source of labour available in the Durban complex to institute without further delay postal deliveries to the suburban areas of Durban twice a day. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether there is any other reason why this should not be done and why Durban, one of the major cities in the Republic, should not enjoy facilities which in terms of the Minister’s own answer are enjoyed by other major cities. I believe that in most areas of Cape Town and Pretoria this system of two mail deliveries per day already applies. I want to put it to the hon. the Minister that if only one delivery a day is given in these main city areas, it can mean a delay of up to 14 or 15 hours before a letter which has been sent by fast aircraft can be handled and delivered to the person. This means, in effect, that the person gets the letter the next day. I believe that there is no need for this. The labour is there and I believe that the hon. the Minister should provide the public of Durban with this service.

I also want to refer to the question of the provision of telephones. My colleague, the hon. member for Orange Gove, has referred to it and also the hon. member for Randfontein. My figures, which I received from the hon. the Minister, deal with the nine telephone control areas which roughly embrace the main city areas of South Africa. One could refer to them as the hubs of commerce and industry in South Africa. These are areas where a telephone is a vital necessity to maintain satisfactory commercial and industrial activities. According to my information and my analysis of the replies there were 44,254 outstanding applications at the end of 1967 in these nine areas. This was an increase of more than 11,700 over the 1966 figure. I am aware that the number of applicants provided with telephones exceeded 76,000, but this figure of just over 76,000 is the lowest figure of telephone applications satisfied since 1964. It therefore simply means that at the present rate we are not overcoming the backlog and it is getting worse. If this situation continues I think that it will become even more chaotic than it is now. I have mentioned the nine main areas and want to refer to Durban as an example again. I want to refer to the area of Durban outside the area serviced by the Durban corporation and their telephone department. If we look at the figure of outstanding applications in 1964 we find that there were 1,243. In that same year the number of services that were provided were 5,038. This looks like good progress. In 1967, however, we find that the outstanding applications have increased to 7,516 and that the number of services provided have only increased to 5,058, an increase of only 20. This means that there are 6,000 more outstanding applications than in 1964. This is the overall position, but I want to refer to something which I think is quite serious, namely the position in regard to the non-White townships. I am now referring to Kwa Mashu, Chatsworth and Austerville. The total population involved is roughly 400,000 to 500,000 souls. The position as it stands at the moment, representing a period of four years, is that 155 private telephones have been installed in these areas during the last four years. If one considers the number of applications which have not been met over that period, we find that it is a figure of 412. 412 applications could not be met in an area of over 400,000 souls. I know that it is the intention to place call boxes at strategic points in these townships. Unfortunately, due to vandals and other irresponsible elements these call boxes are often out of order. I want to put it to the hon. the Minister that in times of crisis and unrest a telephone could be a very vital means of communication in these areas. If the problem of “out of order telephone boxes” cannot be easily surmounted I want to suggest that the applications in these non-white areas should at least receive more favourable consideration than they do at present. I believe that it is urgent, that there is a great need for it and I want to ask the hon. the Minister if he would be good enough to give this matter his attention.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to follow up on what the hon. member for Berea who has just resumed his seat, had to say. When he commenced his speech, he referred to two letters. What he meant by doing so, was difficult to understand, because if an hon. member rises here and admits, as he did, “it is only an isolated case” …

That it is not an isolated case.

The hon. member is now aggravating the matter. He cannot mention many more cases, but he takes this one isolated case to indicate how poor the delivery service is. It would have been a very good thing if the hon. member also referred to post, which, having been posted 48 hours previously in Europe or in England, are delivered here 48 hours afterwards to the addressee. Why should he mention this one isolated case? In addition I want to point out that the number of postal articles handled is 1,194 million. In spite of this we are now referred by the hon. member to two letters. This is really the writing on the wall for the United Party in regard to their arguments under this particular vote.

The hon. member for Orange Grove put forward the poorest argument, which was poorer than all the poor ones he has made over the years. He was not even prepared to speak for 30 minutes. His speech was so poor that he felt he had nothing he could say and that he would cover the same ground he had covered in the past. Therefore he only spoke for ten minutes. What did the hon. member say in those ten minutes? He referred again to the staff position, and he also referred, inter alia, to the 200,000 hours of overtime, as well as to the telephone shortage. As long as I have been in this House, the hon. member has always referred to these matters. In my opinion this is absolutely unconstructive criticism. The staff shortage has in fact decreased, and why did the hon. member not point that out? In the annual report it is very clearly stated that the number of persons now employed is the greatest ever. During the past year the establishment has increased. This was also as a result of improved salary structures. As far as the tremendous amount of overtime work is concerned, it is clearly stated that in these Estimates the fine sum of R8,994,000 is being made available as a supplementary amount owing to increased tariffs. Accommodation and transportation costs have also been supplemented with an additional amount of R3 million. If hon. members plead for amounts greater than that, they must simply tell us from what source it has to be derived. They will have to admit that in view of the fact that the Post Office will now have to draw up its own estimates, these additional amounts will have to be acquired by means of increased tariffs and taxes. There is no other method of obtaining this money.

Before my time is up, I also want to avail myself of the opportunity of doing a little begging from the hon. the Minister. I know that this is not the right occasion and that it can be done departmentally; and it is in fact being done departmentally, but there are many hon. members here who avail themselves of this opportunity of doing a little begging in regard to their own constituencies. In my constituency we have in one case for example a small town in the North-eastern Free State which for many years has had to be satisfied with having their telephone exchange accommodated, their postal work done, and having the staff work in a building which is really no longer suited to that purpose. I want to ask the hon. Minister, seeing that we have now come to the start of a new dispensation, that he should not only bear important and urgent matters in mind, but that he should also provide those outposts, which serve the small towns, with the best facilities as rapidly as this can be done, because I know that Rome was not built in one day.

Another matter I want to mention is the automation of our farm telephone lines, and the automation of the telephone services in our smaller towns. We know that this will involve tremendous expense, because the demands which are being made of this Department are so great. This Department, with its communication systems, postal delivery services, telecommunication systems, telegrams and everything which has to be sent, is the centre of communication for the entire Republic of South Africa on a social, economic and in all other fields. Because I know that the demands are so great and that South Africa is undergoing a period of growth, I know that I cannot demand that these requests be complied with immediately. But we just want to experience the satisfaction of having a continuous telephone service for the outposts in my constituency made available. I am asking specifically for this because another Department is closing down police stations in order to centralize, and because this is not a continuous service, it creates a dangerous situation. Because they do not have a continuous service, they cannot communicate immediately with doctors in emergencies. Here it is of great importance. I am aware of the large number of towns and cities which are already being served by an automatic telephone exchange. I think it is in the region of 80 per cent of the entire area which is enjoying this privilege and that is why I also want to request this for the distant areas. We know that it will entail tremendous costs, and the number of subscribers will possibly not justify the costs, but one must bear in mind that services are often being rendered which are not paying. That is why I should like to advocate that the application of this policy of the automation of our telephone system for the rural areas should be expedited.

It is wonderful to see how the Post Office has grown under the National Party Government. It is in fact gratifying if one reviews the statistics, and it is only then that one can really assess the value of the poor attack made by the Opposition. They have no more arguments to put forward with which to destroy ours. In the financial sphere the Department of Posts and Telegraphs has grown fantastically. In a former speech I referred to the expansion and development of our communications systems, but here I have a short list of a few examples of growth under this National Party Government. In the entire world there are only 18 countries which have more telephones than South Africa. Are most countries not hundreds of years older than South Africa? There is for example a business turnover of R732 million, where 20 years ago it was only R168 million. The number of leased telex services has increased from 220 to 3,300.

The system is out of date in Cape Town.

What do you want to say? Do you want to allege that this is deterioration? You must not measure the deterioration of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in terms of the deterioration of the United Party. I think that you have a tangible image there and something on which you can spend some time. But you must …

Order! The hon. member must address the Chair.

Mr. Chairman, I do so gladly. But those hon. members are inclined to provoke one, and then it takes longer for me to say, “Mr. Chairman”. The number of telephones has increased from 318,500 to 1.2 million. The distance in farm lines in service, was 65,700 miles in 1948. To-day this distance is 205,000 miles. Allegedly the number of calls, because there is such a major shortage according to the United Party, has not increased as they should. These have in fact increased from 458 million to 1,330 million. I can supply numerous other statistics, but I think that these are entirely sufficient.

I want to conclude by saying that we have tremendous appreciation for the fact that the Minister and his predecessor have increased overtime payment for post office officials.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Harrismith, who has just resumed his seat, suggested that the Opposition has very little to complain about. I cannot understand how an hon. member could suggest something like this. I alone have so many complaints and suggestions to make, on my list that, if I were to dispose of them all, I would speak for more than an hour. I know the hon. member for Orange Grove would also very much like to be on his feet for an hour. But surely the hon. member for Harrismith knows that the time is very limited.

The shortage of staff in the Postal Services has been mentioned. The member suggests that we must bear in mind that the number of telephones have increased by thousands, as well as telephone calls. But our complaint is that the number of increased telephones is not keeping up with the increase in population. Nor is the number of telephone calls, because there are not the services to provide for the needs of the population.

I want to mention one of many points which have been brought to my notice. It happens every year that the staff of the smaller post offices find it very difficult indeed to keep up with the sorting of the post, in particular over Christmas time. There is a very great rush just at that particular time, and I know it is a great problem. I myself have tried to find solutions, but I can only think of trying to supplement or increase the staff, even on a temporary basis, to enable them to sort all the post at Christmas and New Year.

I want to mention the telephone services and the chaotic conditions which frequently prevail in thickly populated urban areas. On Thursday, 15th April this year I happened to be flying from Cape Town to East London. Because the aircraft’s engine gave trouble we were delayed some time in Port Elizabeth, and as I had a very important appointment with someone in King William’s Town, I thought I should telephone and tell this person what had happened arid why I was delayed. I was informed by the exchange girl that there was a delay of three hours. This was an ordinary week day, and there was a delay of three hours, on the telephone line from a large city like Port Elizabeth to King William’s Town. The aircraft’s engine was duly repaired, we left Port Elizabeth, landed in East London, I collected my car and I motored to King William’s Town. I arrived there before the call came through, in other words, under three hours. I left someone in Port Elizabeth to put the call through on my behalf. I still arrived there under three hours.

Come to your point.

It took a shorter time to repair the aircraft and journey to King William’s Town than it took for the telephone call to reach King William’s Town. The point is, this is happening far too frequently, with important calls on main lines.

[Inaudible.]

The hon. member will have time to make his speech, I shall listen to him. It is very annoying and upsetting when we book very important calls to be told that the line is out of order, and that there is a delay of some three hours, and sometimes even longer. On that particular day the situation was absolutely chaotic in Port Elizabeth. [Interjections.] I am very pleased that the hon. member for Algoa is sitting over there and hears what I have to say. Then I come to the smaller towns and villages where there are farm lines and where repairs frequently have to be done due to damage caused by strong winds and more especially heavy snow falls. Even now with the light snowfalls we are having, we are having a lot of trouble with telephone lines in the country districts. Sir, the hon. the Minister mentioned earlier on during the Committee Stage that these country lines were being run at a loss of R2 million. I was not surprised to hear that. I realize the difficulties facing the technicians and engineers in maintaining those lines. In areas where we have particularly heavy snowfalls through the year, sometimes three, four or five falls in one season, I wonder whether it would not be advisable to bury the lines, to put them underground. I know that this would be an expensive undertaking, but it need not necessarily be done on a national scale. It could be done, however, in areas where snowfalls are very frequent and troublesome. Sir, I offer this as a suggestion. As you know, the poles are blown over and the wires break and we are then out of communication for ten days and sometimes even longer.

Then I want to come to another matter which was raised a few years ago by the hon. member for Mossel Bay in his maiden speech. I refer to the question of stamps. I have been approached by many people to raise the question of South African stamps. As we know, stamps appear to be very unpretentious and simple and sometimes they appear to be very unimportant as well, but apart from their daily use, we know that stamps on our South African letters act as ambassadors for us and carry a message also to remote parts of the globe. [Interjections.] That hon. member wants to know what my point is in raising this. I want to suggest that here we have an opportunity to improve these small little pieces of paper which act as our ambassadors and which carry the message from South Africa. Sir, let us take the ordinary standard 2½ cent stamp which carries a reproduction of the old Groot Constantia building on it. We who are familiar with this particular building and the surroundings, know that you could not wish for a more beautiful setting anywhere in the world than this Constantia area, but the stamp of Constantia is a hopeless advertisement for South Africa. The stamp shows the white building against a purple background and a big green leaf on the one side. Sir, no one could be proud of sending such a stamp anywhere in the world; I know what problems there are with the printing of stamps. Most African stamps are printed overseas. I know that other States in Africa have their stamps printed overseas, most of them in Britain. Our stamps cannot be compared with most of the stamps which are being used by other States in Africa. I have only mentioned this one stamp but there are many other instances. I know that there is also the problem of dyes but surely this is something on which we should concentrate and rectify. In the United States of America to-day there are over 10 million stamp collectors not to mention those in the rest of the world including South Africa. We want better stamps. Even local collectors here in Cape Town have pointed out many flaws in our stamps to me and I do think it is high time the Department investigated this important matter. [Time expired.]

The hon. member for East London (North) finds it strange that we on this side of the House are amused by the fact that the Opposition is not requesting the privilege of the half-hour. The only conclusion we can draw from that is that the proverbial new broom, to which the hon. member for Orange Grove referred, has swept much cleaner during the past four months, than the Opposition expected. I want to predict, on the basis of the fact that the staff of the Department of Posts, after an interview with the hon. the Minister, praised him for his honesty, that in future the Opposition is going to find no dust to sweep away, after the hon. Minister has given his attention to the matter.

Mr. Chairman, if we want to maintain sound and continued development in the rural areas, then it is necessary to build up the human material in these areas, and one of the ways in which this can be done is to expand the service in the rural areas and to improve it. We are grateful that we are in a position to praise the Government and thank them for the expansion of services which has already taken place in the rural areas. We are grateful, too, that it is possible for us to say thank you, under this Vote, to the Department concerned for the fact that the farmers can to a large extent make use of automatic farm line exchanges. Mr. Chairman, a few years ago, as you know, the automatic exchange at Bethlehem, as far as farm lines are concerned, was the first to be introduced. I think it is also fitting that one should address a word of thanks to the technicians of the Post Office for the rapid and efficient way in which they undertook the conversion. I think it also necessary to mention that a great deal of the expensive, imported apparatus for these exchanges was not entirely suited to our conditions, and that is why I am grateful that the technicians of the S.A. Post Office have to a large extent eliminated and improved these faults and deficiencies. We want to extend our thanks to the technicians for doing so. We know that the hon. the Minister is adopting a sympathetic attitude towards their conditions and requirements.

Mr. Chairman, I want to allow myself the liberty this afternoon, at this late hour, of pleading for further improvements and changes, changes which I think it will be possible for our own technicians to bring about. According to the present system of automatic farm line exchanges, there are ten subscribers to one line. It is also true that farmers can only avail themselves of telephone services during certain times of the day for business matters, i.e. early in the morning, immediately after business undertakings have opened, just before and after lunch hour, and then, in emergencies, just before the business undertakings close. During these times pressure on the lines reaches a peak; they are so overloaded that it is difficult to find an open line. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is not possible to place a smaller load on these lines, so that no more than five subscribers will make use of one line. We are aware of the fact that use can be made of the emergency button in emergencies, but one finds that many of the subscribers do not feel themselves at liberty to make use of it because they are not certain whether the person using the line is busy with a main line call or not. On the other hand, some persons often misuse this emergency button. I believe that the only way to solve this problem is to make the burden on the lines lighter.

Then there is a second matter I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister, and it is that this new system of automatic farm line exchanges appears to be tremendously sensitive. Particularly in the summer rainfall regions, where heavy thunderstorms occur, we find that conversations are often cut off, even by minor electrical storms. We want to ascertain whether it would not be possible for the hon. the Minister to have an investigation made as to whether an adjustment cannot be made in these circumstances.

In conclusion I want to associate myself with what has been said by former speakers who advocated the expansion of the automation of telephone services. On the main route between Johannesburg and Durban one finds the towns Senekal, Paul Roux and Kestell, places which have recently developed into overnight stopping places for travellers. One finds, particularly on holidays and at nights, that long delays are experienced with calls to and from these places, and when we plead for automation there, then it is not only for the purpose of rendering a service to the local communities, but also for the purpose of rendering a service to the travellers. The same applies in the case of regions which are developing into tourist attractions. I am thinking here of places such as Clarens, Rosendal and Golden Gate. As we ascertained under the Vote of the Minister of Tourism, comfort and efficient service is of utmost importance for the tourist. For that reason I want to ask the hon. the Minister to take these places into consideration. Mr. Chairman, I am pleading for this development in the rural areas, not because of selfish or comfort-seeking motives on the part of those people, but I am pleading for this because these are people who are rendering a service, not only a service to their local communities, but in many cases to the country. I think that the most gratifying and best way of compensating a person for services rendered is to render greater and improved services to him.

Sir, the hon. member for Bethlehem actually pleaded with the hon. the Minister to consider the advisability of reducing the number of subscribers per farm line from ten to five. I wonder if the hon. member really thought about this before he made this request.

Of course.

Apparently he did think about it. Sir, has he thought of the cost of this? Has it occurred to him that you have to double the number of farm lines which are in existence to-day to be able to provide the equivalent number of services?

It is not necessary for all the apparatus to be doubled.

That does not matter. It is not a question of apparatus. What he is advocating is that with the existing expenditure, only half the number of people in the country who now have telephones must have telephones.

And the rest tom-toms.

Does the hon. Whip sitting over there suggest that we must go back to tom-toms? That is what his colleague is pleading for. His plea is that we must reduce the number of subscribers by half. Sir, this is typical of the thinking of this Government.

Backward thinking.

They apparently think there is no need to give services to these people. They have spent millions of rand on technical advances, such as automation and things like that. That is all very well, Sir, but let us get down to basics. Let us first give the public telephones; let us first give the public service. As I mentioned to the hon. the Minister in a previous debate here, his divisional controller in Natal has the right idea and I hope the hon. the Minister will listen to him. The divisional controller in Natal has said to me, “We will first give services to those people who have no service before we start improving the services of those who do have some service”. I subscribe wholly to that view.

While I am talking about services, I want to come back to a subject which I raised last year with the Minister’s predecessor, and that is the provision of public telephone services to non-Whites in non-white areas. Now, we know the problem; the money-boxes are stolen and the instruments are damaged by vandals, etc., but I suggested to the Minister last year that these public telephones should be placed within the post offices or in places of business, where at least some service could be given to the non-Whites rather than what they have to-day, a telephone booth standing outside which is useless to them for 24 hours a day, and sometimes for seven days a week, before they can get around to repairing it. At least let them have some service for some hours of the day. The Minister’s predecessor rejected that and said that it was impossible to do, and he said that the policy was that if a service was provided it should be a full-time service, and what was the good of service for only eight hours of the day? I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether there has been a change in policy? Has there been a change in the attitude of his Department? Have they accepted the suggestion that I put to them, that a curtailed service is better than no service? Because I want to quote from a letter received by a landlord from his department which reads as follows—

That is why I ask whether they have accepted the principle of a curtailed service; and if they have, what is the good of putting bars and padlocks on these doors which are still going to be damaged anyway by vandals who have no respect for property? I want to urge again on the Minister, the same as I did on his predecessor, that he do something about it. He is starting with a completely new department, virtually. He is a new Minister with a new vista in front of him, as the result of the Bill which has gone through this House. Let him consider this possibility, and let us have some service for these people.

I want to switch to staff matters before I conclude. I am sure that the hon. the Minister is aware of the dissatisfaction that there is amongst the staff in his department. I sincerely hope he is, because, make no mistake, it is there, and it is in all sections, and more particularly in the engineering section. He knows that there have been many resignations from this section. One of the chief causes of these resignations is that men are overlooked when promotions are considered and when they are reviewed, particularly men with 20 years of service or more, men who have had 10 years or more experience with the coaxial cables, with the microwave transmission system, men whose names have been on the standby book —and the Minister will probably know what that means—for seven years or more, men who have done the more responsible work for years in an acting or temporary capacity without receiving the promotion and the equivalent increase in salaries to do that work. Some of these men, when they have been disgruntled, have interviewed divisional engineers and other senior officials, and they have asked whether there was any reason why their pro motion was being held back. They have been told by these senior officials that there was no adverse report in their personal files. They can find no real reason as to why they are being held back. These people are dissatisfied with the merit grading and the merit promotion system. It is not the principle they are against; it is the way in which it is applied that they object to. After interviews with these senior officials, these men ask that they then be tested in their particular spheres. They have been told that there was no provision for a special test at any particular time, and they were referred to the last grading test.

As I say, they are not opposed to this principle but they are against the method of its application, where a committee appears to investigate them. These committees are invariably rushed. They ask a few questions. They have a little talk, then they make a few tests and they rush on to the next one. This is leading, as I said, to much dissatisfaction. It has done so in the past and it will continue to do so, and I consider that the time has come for a change to be made, there has been a change over. We have heard from an hon. member a plea for the removal of the Post Office employees from the jurisdiction of the Public Service Commission. This is the Minister’s chance. I pleaded for it and others on this side of the House did so, too, when we discussed the Post Office Bill earlier this session. Now is the Minister’s chance to institute a full inquiry into this system and its application to see whether we cannot deal fairly with these people, particularly, as I said, those with 20 years’ service or more. I know that this is a new Minister. He is starting on a new road in the Post Office. I want to wish him well, and his department and his officials. The future development of South Africa depends on good communications, which in turn depends on a happy and contented staff. I want to conclude by saying once again that I urge the Minister to investigate this system in order to have a happy and contented staff.

Business suspended at 6.30 p.m. and resumed at 8.05 p.m.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Chairman, I listened attentively to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District). I think he has taken cognizance of the good advice which he received from the hon. the Minister of Planning this afternoon. I think he has stepped down from the pedestal on which he was and will now conduct himself like a dignified member of this House. The hon. member was upset this afternoon about the allegedly bad position of the engineering division of the Post Office and about the question of promotions which were supposedly not given on merit. I do not know whether the hon. member was referring to a personal friend or two who might not have been given the necessary promotion for he submitted no proof. I therefore assume that there may be one or two persons who according to his assertion have 20 years’ service or more and who have not been given their due promotion. I think this was a ridiculous attack, however, because any man who is worth his salt, will get his promotion on time. The hon. member also tried to make another joke. He referred to the hon. member for Harrismith who had said that there were too many telephones on party lines. He then asked, “Where would the money come from if there were to be fewer telephones on party lines?” But I ask myself where the money would come from if, in compliance with the request of the hon. member for East London (North), all cables were to be placed underground. I think the hon. member should use his “top storey” at times, even though he does not do so all the time. His statement is in fact somewhat ridiculous.

Then we also listened to the dramatist of Orange Grove. He reminded me of the match I had the privilege of seeing last Saturday at Loftus Versfeld. He reminded me of the fullback of the British Lions, who thought he was setting a record by scoring 17 points. You know, Sir, he played a wonderful match up to the time when Frik du Preez appeared on the scene, up to the time when he was flat on his back with his feet in the air. When we have finished with the United Party in this debate, the hon. member for Orange Grove will also be flat on his back with his feet in the air.

He is not even a linesman.

Yes, Sir, I would not even choose him for a linesman. We know the United Party by now. The criticism they have been expressing in this House throughout the years, their attacks on the Minister and his staff, have always been attempts to present these people to the public as being incompetent. I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to thank the hon. the Minister and the Postmaster-General and his staff in particular, for the way in which they have been serving this country. Our officials are responsible citizens of this country. They are not merely interested in the salary they earn. As good citizens they are also engaged in playing their part in the development of this country. But what do we get from the Opposition? Criticism. We have received no constructive suggestions from the Opposition up to this stage. No, Sir, we know this Opposition. We have had dealings with them before. Just think back to the war years. The only thing they were suited for was to sell petrol coupons. That is how they used the Post Office and its staff. Post Office officials were employed to sell petrol coupons to the public. On what grounds can they criticize this Government? At that time they were merely interested in their “allies”, as they termed it, and in their “war effort”.

Order! The hon. member must return to the Vote.

Mr. Chairman, thank you for your guidance. I was referring to what used to be done at that time. That is the record of that Opposition. This Minister and this department employ their energies for the prosperity of this country. Those hon. members, who retarded the economic development, were able to run the Post Office with a small staff. I must say that they did not do so too well, but at that time it was a small administration in any event. They are the people who held back the economic development of this country. Since the National Party came into power in 1948, a tremendous upsurge has taken place in the economic field. It goes without saying that certain heavy demands were made on the Department of Posts and Telegraphs to provide the necessary staff, but this Government could meet those demands.

Give us more telephones!

I listened to an hon. member who referred to telephone services this afternoon, but he obviously does not know how to dial. If he did know how to dial, he would not be having those problems. That is not my problem. We probably have one of the best telephone services, although there is a shortage to a certain extent. Since the time when the National Party came into power, the position in the Post Office has improved tremendously. I want to refer to the question of staff.

Order! Hon. members must not whisper so loudly.

Since the introduction of better conditions of service and the revision of salaries and the structure of posts, which came into effect on 1st January, 1966, the staff position in the Post Office has improved considerably. There have been fewer resignations. The staff position has also been strengthened since that time. I am the last person to say that the position is as one would like it to be, but salary adjustments are not adjustments which one can make overnight. These are matters which have to be worked out in detail. If we look at the factual position, we find that the staff has increased in number. Up to 1st March, 1967, it increased to a figure of 49,812. This is an increase of 1,122, or 2.3 per cent. Staff losses came to 11,827 which is a decrease of 1,367 as compared with 1966-’67. Therefore the Opposition has no grounds for criticizing this Government.

Let us now take the uniformed staff. Despite intensive recruiting in September and October, 1966, insufficient white persons were found to fill those posts. Temporary use was then made of Coloureds, Indians and Bantu. Now I want to refer to an experiment which, as it happens, is being conducted in the constituency which I represent. The services of white women are employed there. Let me say immediately that it is not menial work which is being done by those women. I should like to know from the Minister what the experience has been since the commencement of this experiment to use white women for the sorting of mail, and even for the delivery of mail to a certain extent? I think that certain conditions of service can be improved so that the women will perhaps be employed for shorter hours. My information is that the turnover of staff has decreased tremendously since the employment of women. My information is also that the quality of the services being rendered by these women is far better. We know that we sometimes find irresponsible people who deliver mail to the wrong address. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I am standing up to discuss one matter only, a matter which I believe to be the greatest problem of my Department, namely the shortage of telecommunications services. I want to indicate what shortages there actually are, their causes, what has been done to meet those shortages, and what the plans are for the future. Before coming to that, I want to refer in a few words to the hon. member for Orange Grove’s remarks in this connection. He spoke of the “tremendous, increasing, inexplicable” shortage of telephones. I can understand why the hon. member speaks of the “tremendous, increasing, inexplicable” shortage of telephones. This is simply his way of speaking; he cannot help it, because he must always magnify and exaggerate. He always reminds me of Oom Kaspaas’s swaggering stories. I do not know where the hon. member heard his story of the “inexplicable” shortage of telephones, because it is not inexplicable. Well, perhaps it is inexplicable to the hon. member because he refuses to accept any explanation of this shortage and how it arose. Does the hon. member still remember how he carried on, in the days when he was still editor of Die Kruithoring, about the backlog in our telephone services under the previous Government? Under their administration there was a shortage of 73,600 telephones on 31st March, 1948, as a result of the poor service. On 31st March, 1949, the shortage was as much as 92,000. This was still as a result of the poor service of the previous Government. On 31st March, 1950, there was a shortage of 104,000. That was the estate which the National Party Government inherited from the previous Government. In spite of the tremendous economic development we had in South Africa, the shortage was reduced to 15,000 as at 31st March, 1960, and to 13,000 as at 31st March, 1964.

[Inaudible.]

I will explain to the hon. member if he will just exercise a little patience. If the hon. member would listen, he will understand next time and not speak of an “inexplicable” shortage again. As a result of the tremendous development which took place from the sixties and which was stimulated by this Government, and owing to the exceptional capital difficulties experienced by the Post Office, the number of outstanding applications increased to the number at which it stood on 31st March, 1968. This brings me to the reasons for that.

The hon. member for Orange Grove knows as well as I do what the reasons for the shortage are, namely that it is attributable to the inadequate capital appropriations. What was the result of that? Often the delivery of equipment had to be postponed because the funds with which to pay for it were not available at the right time.

Scandalous! Who was in power?

When we campaigned for the independence of the Post Office, the hon. member continually opposed us.

That is not true.

It is true. This also led to delays in putting the equipment into service, with the result that when the equipment was eventually put into service, the relief which it provided was insufficient to meet the expansion which had taken place in the meantime. By that time it was too late to increase the order. As hon. members know, it takes up to three years to have orders for equipment executed. These inadequate appropriations also meant that works which had already been planned had to be constantly adjusted to fit in with the funds appropriated. Thus, for example, the planned programme for the period 1962-’63 to 1970-’71 was revised in 1964 and 72 changes had to be made. Owing to insufficient funds the programme of 1965 was again revised and although it was then changed to extend to 1967-’68 only, an additional 40 changes were made. These were followed by 35 further changes in 1965. In an attempt to make up the backlog …

Order! Hon. members at the back must stop conversing so loudly.

… a policy is being followed of rather having 70 per cent service for 100 persons than 100 per cent service for 70 persons. The result of this is that the exchange equipment, junction cables, trunks and underground cables are being loaded to the maximum. The position is being aggravated by the fact that the sustained economic boom has resulted in a large increase in the traffic.

I want to admit frankly here to-night that the quality of telephone services is continually diminishing. There are also the extensions to exchanges which cannot be fully utilized because, with the limited funds, the necessary relief could not be provided simultaneously in respect of all services. Therefore it is not always possible to make full use of additional allocations. In the Johannesburg exchange, for example, 2,000 additional telephone numbers were supplied. However, they cannot be allocated before additional junctions and switch-gear, which was ordered for delivery in 1968-’69, is installed.

At present 64 automatic exchanges are closed; in other words, the exchange equipment is serving the maximum number of connections for which it is designed and new services can only be supplied when numbers become available as a result of the termination of existing services. A total of no fewer than 38,642 deferred applications have been recorded at those closed exchanges. In addition, it is expected that a further 32 exchanges will have to be closed down at the end of 1968, for reasons which I have already indicated to hon. members.

I want to be honest with the Committee. In general our trunk system is in a unsatisfactory state. Trunk circuits, which are urgently required, cannot be supplied to the extent planned, with the result that the already serious delays in trunk-calls are increasing. This entails serious inconvenience for the public and for the Department it means a loss of revenue. As a result of the introduction of the micro-wave system, however, there has been a considerable improvement in respect of delays in trunk-calls between certain centres. Between the large centres delays in trunk-calls are seldom longer than 30 minutes. As far as delays between the large centres are concerned, great improvements have been effected in the past year, and in many cases the delays were eliminated altogether with the introduction of new micro-wave systems and the extension of the facilities by means of which telephone subscribers can dial exchanges or subscribers at other places directly.

For example, between Johannesburg and Durban, Cape Town and Johannesburg, Pretoria and Port Elizabeth, Cape Town and Port Elizabeth, Pretoria and Cape Town, Bloemfontein and Pretoria, Bloemfontein and Durban, Kimberley and Johannesburg, Durban and Bloemfontein, East London and Bloemfontein, and East London and Port Elizabeth there are no longer any delays. Further improvements are continually being effected. For example, it is expected that later this year additional trunk circuits will be supplied between Cape Town and Durban to improve the existing average delays of about half an hour, and subscribers in Port Elizabeth will soon be able to dial directly to Bloemfontein, Johannesburg, Pretoria and Cape Town. Subscribers in Johannesburg are also expected to be able to dial directly to all automatic exchanges in the Republic by the end of the year.

The assertion is easily made that the Government has done nothing about this problem up to now. This is not true. The hon. member for Orange Grove again adopted the attitude here that I should have worked miracles in the four months since I became Minister. Even the progress which has been made and the planning for the future, are not my work. It is the work of my predecessor, the hon. the Minister of Health. The hon. member for Orange Grove must not think that one can change an entire situation in a country in the space of a few months.

The total number of telephones increased in the past few financial years as follows: In 1963-’64 by 48,461; 1964-’65 by 59,317; 1965-’66 by 61,176; and in 1966-’67 by 59,933. On 31st March, 1963, the total number of telephones in the country was 950,924. By 31st March, 1967, the number had increased to 1,179,811, an increase of no less than 24 per cent. It is true that the number of waiting applicants increased from 11,133 on 31st December, 1962, to 54,805 at the end of December, 1967, and increased still further up to 31st March, 1968.

To 59,000, nearly 60,000.

The hon. member is exaggerating again. It was 59,000. On the other hand, however, it must also be remembered that no fewer than 228,887 new telephones were provided, which is more than four times as many telephones as appeared on the waiting list for new telephones on 31st December, 1967. The number of subscribers to telex rental services increased by 1,586 from 31st December, 1963, to February, 1968, that is to say, from 2,064 to 3,650. This represents an increase of 67 per cent. Although the number of waiting applicants is at present 406, it must be remembered that, here too, almost four times as many new services have been provided as are on the waiting list. The following amounts were voted for telecommunications development during the past three years: In 1965-’66, R25.5 million; 1966-’67, R26.75 million; and 1967-’68, R30 million. This adds up to a total of R82.255 million over the past three years. In that three-year period the following equipment and services were provided: 180,000 additional telephone stations, including extensions and other additional services; 3,500 new trunks, with a length of about 300,000 miles; 1,500 miles of broad ban microwave routes; 1,000 additional telex services; 100,000 miles of telegraph circuits; 27 new automatic exchanges; 14 automatic exchange extensions; and trunk dialling facilities at various cities and towns in the country.

As a result of the tremendous economic growth that South Africa experienced in these years, and despite these tremendous efforts which were made to keep pace with that development, the waiting list increased during the past three years by 16,608 to 54,800 applications for telephones, and the waiting list for telex services of course also increased. Mr. Chairman, we are faced with a serious telecommunications problem; I fully appreciate this, but we have a problem the extent of which is known to us. We know the causes and the factors which have given rise to it. We are aware of everything which has contributed to the problem which we are faced with today, and, what is even more important, we realize the importance of the task awaiting us in the solution of this problem. Not only did the National Party Government and the previous Minister, together with the Department, make very good progress during the past few years when more capital was made available to them, but we also have plans to tackle that problem with might and main. South Africa will have to exercise patience, but I am not simply asking for patience, and a blind trust; I am asking for patience on the part of our people in the knowledge that the problem will be tackled systematically and that results will certainly be produced. We must not expect, as the hon. member for Orange Grove does, that the problem will simply be solved overnight. It is not a problem which can be solved immediately. It is a problem which has developed over a number of years and it will take a number of years to make up and eliminate the backlog.

It is expected that during the next three years R113.5 million will be spent on telecommunications development, that is, R31 million more than in the previous three years, notwithstanding the R82.2 million which was spent in the past three years, which already represented a very large amount, a larger amount than has ever been spent on telecommunications services in South Africa. In these Estimates alone provision is being made for R35.5 million, which is R5.5 million more than was spent in the past year.

Where necessary, apparatus has already been ordered, and it is expected that the following equipment and services will be supplied during the next three years: 200,000 additional telephone stations, including extensions and other additional services; 5,000 new trunks; 1,000 miles of additional micro-wave routes; 1,600 additional telex services and the complete automation of the telex service; 45 new automatic exchanges and extensions to 26 existing exchanges; facilities for telephone subscribers in all cities and various large towns to dial one another directly; facilities for telephone subscribers to have virtually immediate calls to Europe, America, Australia, Japan and many other parts of the world by means of the modern automatic exchange which will be erected in Cape Town and carried to Lisbon on the 360-channel submarine cable. Telephone calls abroad will be able to be switched through automatically in this exchange. Similar services will be enjoyed by telex subscribers.

The Department’s planning makes provision for the supply of the following equipment and services during the 1968-’69 financial year: 60,000 additional telephone stations, including extensions and other additional services; underground cables to the value of about R3.6 million; new automatic exchanges or extensions to automatic exchanges at ten exchanges in the Western Cape, six in the Eastern Cape, seven in the Transvaal, ten on the Witwatersrand, three in the Free State and Northern Cape, and four in Natal; about 1,500 additional trunks at a cost of R8.5 million, which includes a micro-wave system among Johannesburg, Pretoria and Pietersburg; a modern international telephone exchange in Cape Town, which will deal with calls over the new cable between Cape Town and Lisbon; more than 500 new telex services and new automatic telex exchanges at Bloemfontein and Kimberley; a new international telex exchange in Pretoria; and more than 3,500 new party-line services in rural areas.

Mr. Chairman, it is inevitable that in the years to come further heavy demands will be made on the Post Office to supply adequate telecommunications requirements. The existing backlog has built up gradually over a number of years, and the Department has been obliged to meet the needs as adequately as possible by replacing effective long-term planning by a policy of short-term planning with a view to providing the minimum relief at the maximum number of exchanges. The result is that equipment which by rights ought to have been kept in reserve, is already being used. Experience has also shown that the demand for more services increases as existing services improve.

The new dispensation of the Post Office and the proposed system of self-financing will eliminate the shortage of capital and buildings, as well as the disadvantages of short-term planning. But hon. members must remember that sufficient capital alone does not present a solution for the prevailing shortage of technical and professional staff. In this connection efforts are continually being made to save work and to increase efficiency and production. Where practicable and economical, use is being made of less highly trained and less experienced units to do work that would normally have been done by fully qualified and skilled staff. On the other hand it is envisaged to attend to the staff position in the administrative and executive divisions of the telecommunications industry by means of reorganization and other methods, with a view to meeting the demand for the services of electro-technical engineers and technicians, which is large and continually increasing.

Have you just discovered this shortage?

The hon. member has apparently eaten well, and we have to forgive him. I want to give the House the assurance that I, as Minister, the Postmaster-General and his staff, see this backlog as a challenge which should be eliminated in the next five years, but I specifically want to add that this is, of course, subject to the manpower position and to further unforeseen circumstances not impeding the execution of the task.

As far as the hon. member for Durban (Berea) is concerned, he spoke about the telephone services at Kwa Mashu and Chatsworth. In these areas there are 296 applications outstanding. During 1967, in one year, 94 services were provided there. In the areas where telephone development is on a small scale, it is sometimes difficult to justify heavy capital expenditure in respect of cables, buildings and so on, to provide service to a limited number of persons. However, the Department is aware of the telecommunications requirements in such areas for emergency purposes, and therefore public call offices are being provided. However, I want to give the hon. member the assurance that it will be our constant endeavour to assist in connection with the requirements of the areas concerned, and that the requirements will be met. [Interjections.]

Order! The conference in that corner must come to an end now.

I want to assure the hon. member for Harrismith that the Department is progressively doing what he requested. [Interjections.] Sir, if hon. members on that side do not require this information, I shall resume my seat.

It is your own people who are making a noise.

No, the hon. member for Durban (Point) is continually muttering; no one knows what about. I want to give the hon. member for Harrismith the assurance that the Department is progressively automating telephone services in the rural areas. This must, however, be done systematically and the hon. member can rest assured that we are carefully studying the requirements everywhere in the country and will do everything possible to make the best possible facilities available.

To the hon. member for Bethelehem, who has apologized for not being able to be present here this evening, I want to say that the Department is aware that there are problems in connection with ten subscribers per line, especially in areas where the calling rate is high. Therefore consideration is being given to serving five or six subscribers per line in certain areas at a higher charge, and ten subscribers per line in other areas at a lower charge. This policy will, however, not be altered at the expense of those who do not yet have telephones.

To the hon. member for East London (North), who asked that in areas where the snowfall was high and frequent, circuits should be laid underground, I want to say that this is of course quite uneconomical. The costs involved are no less than R70,000 per mile. With the micro-wave routes we are of course trying to overcome this problem on our trunk system.

To the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District), who is not here, I want to say that last year the hon. member was informed that if a call-office was, for example, provided in a Post Office, it is in any case only available for a few hours per day, and not after-hours when it is sometimes perhaps most necessary. The case which was quoted by the hon. member probably involved a call-office which was situated on the veranda of a post office, with the person from whom the building was leased being asked to help protect the call-office against damage. At present we are as far as possible placing call-offices in sheltered places or well-lit places, such as police stations, hotels, and so on, where they are not so seriously exposed to damage. This has always been our policy.

I said that I only wanted to speak about the shortage of telecommunications services. I shall reply later to the other matters which were raised.

I think we are grateful for the fact that the hon. the Minister, being deeply aware of the seriousness of the problem, decided to enter the debate at an early stage in order to tell us what is happening, in connection with, as I called it, this overriding problem of the telephone shortages to-day. The hon. the Minister gave a long list of figures. Those figures will require further analysis of course, but there was one thing that impressed me, i.e. that he said that within the next three years, if I am correct, there will be, including extensions, etc., approximately 200,000 new telephone stations, and that there will be 60,000 new telephone stations within the next year, including that additional number. This sounds impressive until one looks at what happened last year, and the year before, and the year before that. In each one of those years 60,000 or more new telephones were installed, and even that was not sufficient to meet the shortage. In other words, if we analyse the figures given by the hon. the Minister, we find that in fact they do not hold out any improvement in that respect; that there will be no increase in the number of new telephones we are going to get, but that in fact the position will be just as poor as it has been for the past three or four years.

When I stood up originally, I asked hon. members on the opposite side which of them were satisfied with the services of the Post Office, and there was a chorus of “We are, yes, we are, yes, we are”. I think they are probably a little disappointed and disillusioned now that they have heard what the hon. the Minister said. Let us quote a few of the statements the Minister made in his speech, and. I give him credit for at least being honest in his attitude in regard to this problem. Probably he took a lesson in. connection with such matters from the Minister of Transport during the time he was his Deputy Minister. Let us consider and analyse how serious this problem in connection with telephone shortages really is in the light of what the Minister told us. He said, and it will be recorded in Hansard, that this is the main problem they have to contend with, but hon. members on the opposite side, his colleagues, said they were satisfied. The Minister said that inadequate capital had been appropriated. He is right, but the backbenchers on his side said they were satisfied with the services. The Minister said that the relief was insufficient, but the hon. members on the opposite side said they were satisfied with the services. The hon. the Minister said that the funds were inadequate, but the hon. members on his side were satisfied with the services. Then an important point occurred in the statement of the hon. the Minister, which will also be recorded in Hansard. He said the position was getting worse; that the service of the Department was continually deteriorating. This is a frank and an honest admission on the part of the Minister, and I give him credit for that; but these vociferous members in the back benches on the opposite side say they are satisfied with the services. Their own Minister says the services are deteriorating; he gives them the answer, better than I could have done. We said the telephone trunk system was in an unsatisfactory state, but hon. members on the opposite side jeered at us. Here the Minister gets up and admits it openly; He says the trunk system is in an unsatisfactory state. Do hon. members on the opposite side agree with this? I ask them. Do they agree? (Interjection.] I cannot hear. Do they agree, yes or no?

Do not quote only half of what I said.

Certainly not. It will be possible to read the whole of the Minister’s speech in Hansard, and the hon. members on the opposite side will also be able to read it. He said there was a serious telecommunications problem, but the hon. members opposite, such as the hon. member for Klip River, are satisfied. And so it goes on. Here we have an open admission to-night of a state of affairs which we said was of a deep-rooted and almost inexplicable nature, and we are glad that the Minister explained part of it. But his reply has not enlightened us as to how those things are in fact going to be improved, because the basis of the figures he gave us is that in the next three to five years we shall have as hard a time as we had in the past three or four years, and that at first the position will rather become worse than improve. [Interjections.] Hon. members opposite may not believe me. I shall ask questions in the House of Assembly next year. Do they think the position is going to improve? Is there one of them who thinks it will? I do not hear one single “yes”. Sir. They realize the telephone position will deteriorate. [Interjections.] I always thought that the shortage of telephones was exceptionally high under the former United Party regime. Of course, this was as a result of the war years and one can understand it, but the hon. the Minister told me something to-night which I did not know.

1948 was three years after the war.

What I did not know was that in 1950, in the third year of the National Party regime, the shortage of telephones amounted to 104,000, the largest ever in the history of the country. This is correct, not so? The Minister says yes.

No, do not quote me incorrectly.

Then it was reduced to 11,000, and from there on the shortage increased again.

This was still owing to the fact that the United Party Government had done nothing.

The position has not remained the same. It has since deteriorated by 40,000. The shortage increased by 40,000, according to the figures the Minister himself gave us. They were in power, not us. The shortage of 40,000 increased while they were in power. This shortage of 40,000 would probably have been 39,998 but for the fact that a few post offices were blown up during the War —not by any members of this side of the House.

Let us rather forget everything that happened prior to 1948, and let us view this attitude of the Government to-day in the light of two important occurrences in this House this year. The first was that every hon. member on the opposite side of the House voted against an amendment moved by us on this side of the House to the effect that in this new dispensation of the Post Office better and more extensive services should be provided to the public. The second was that every hon. member on the opposite side voted against the staff members of the Post Office being given a better standard of living, better salaries and wages. There they sit, all of them who voted against this, and it is recorded word for word in Hansard.

My time is running short and there are a few other matters I want to touch upon. The hon. member for Randfontein spoke about the telephone directories and said that the lowest tender had been accepted. Is he not aware of the question put by the hon. member for Houghton in connection with this very matter? I also asked some questions in this connection. The lowest tender was rejected and the highest was accepted. (Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should not like to attack the hon. member for Orange Grove personally, but I do want to lay before you this thought which occurred to me. When I was a child, we knew of a berry known as the bitter berry (bittergal). With vinegar added to it, it would remind me strongly of the hon. member for Orange Grove. The hon. Opposition presented themselves in this House this afternoon as so-called the champions of better conditions for Post Office staff. I had experience of conditions in their time. I know what the conditions were during their term of office. In 1936 when I joined the Post Office and filled in an application form, there was one question which still bothers me to-day and that was “Do you belong to a political party and which party do you support?” I said: The National Party. From the first day I entered that service to the last I was branded. In 1940 I worked in the Germiston Post Office in a building which was erected by the Government of the late President Kruger and which was more than 40 years old. If one dropped a tickey from the counter, it fell between the grooves in the floor and one could not get it again, so that one had to pay the money in. In 1940, after a long struggle, they built a new post office in Germiston. Less than 10 years later, this post office was too small and the National Party had to add another floor. These are examples of their so-called efficiency. With reference to the recent assumption of office by the present hon. the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs, the hon. member for Orange Grove expected wonders in four months. I should like to tell you an anecdote of something that happened in Germiston many years ago. A very wealthy person confidently approached the Postmaster saying that he would like to telegraph a pair of shoes to his brother in Kimberley. The Postmaster replied: “Very well, my friend, give me the shoes and come back to-morrow to find out what has happened to them.” The next day he enquired from the Postmaster and the latter replied: “I am very sorry, old chap, here are your shoes. Your brother says they are too small.” It is as impossible to wave a magic wand as far as planning is concerned and to put everything right overnight or within a week or three months as it is to telegraph shoes. I am quite satisfied. The hon. member for Orange Grove harped a great deal on whether we were satisfied that everything was fine in respect of the post office. I am quite satisfied. There are problems and the hon. the Minister admitted it, but we know how to deal with those problems and how to solve them. We do not run away from our problems. I should like to point out what the staff position was during the United Party’s term of office. I want to tell you. Sir, what happened to me, and not only with me but with all my colleagues as well, and many of them are not far from here this evening. We were hounded by snoopers in the Post Office. If they allowed you to receive a private call in the Johannesburg Post Office, it was put through to a snooper so that he could hear what you were saying. That was my experience under their administration. They pretend to be angels, but we know them. The post office staff also know them, and my ex-colleagues are still there. They had experience of the United Party and they will know better than to put the United Party in power again.

I actually stood up to raise another matter, namely the position of radio hams in South Africa. I want to quote a few interesting figures. The licensing of radio hams takes place at the Post Office. People who want to acquire a licence must be efficient in Afrikaans or English and they must be able to signal and to receive morse code at 12 words per minute. The licence fees are merely nominal, namely R1 per year, but a licensee must also be in possession of a listener’s licence. I want to furnish a few interesting figures in connection with the number of licences issued. In the Western Cape ten licences have been issued, in the Eastern Cape 241, in South-West Africa about 60, in the Orange Free State and in Northern Cape 278, in Natal 384 and in the Transvaal 1,243. The permissible power for amateur radio transmitters in South Africa is 150 watts. I want to say something about this maximum power permitted for the transmitters. As you know, radio hams experience problems when they want to converse with radio hams in other countries of the world. Many of them complain that their counterparts in the rest of the world cannot receive them satisfactorily. The maximum permissible power in England is also 150 watts. However, there are other countries, such as the United States, where the maximum power permitted can be up to 1000 watts. The scope of operation of the American radio ham is much greater in extent and magnitude than that of the South African radio ham. Although our South African radio hams can receive them very well, reception at their end is very poor. I do not know whether you have ever listened to radio hams on the special wavelength, but one sometimes hears quite interesting personal conversations. These people are also a part of South Africa and they also carry the image of South Africa out into the rest of the world. I believe that the hon. the Minister and his Department should consider allowing more powerful transmitters in South Africa. I do not know whether this is subject to international agreement, but I do want to plead that consideration be given to this matter. The radio hams also fulfil a very important function in times of emergency when other existing means of communication are disrupted. They then have the right to make radio contact where necessary and transmit messages. When an amateur receives a distress signal, an S.O.S. signal or a May Day signal, they must assist and may transmit emergency messages. Before 1963, licences for radio hams were issued freely, and about 300 licences were issued every year. Since then applicants were subjected to a test, and since 1963 an average number of about 30 licences were issued, in other words, about 10 per cent of what it was before the test. I want to ask the hon. the Minister that when people apply for radio licences and when they are told that they have to pass a test first, they should also be told where they can receive training to qualify them for writing the test. I believe that we should have more radio ham personalities in our country. I want to content myself with these few words.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Germiston District, who has just sat down, made a plea for radio hams, and I join him in that plea, because of the great service that these people render to South Africa and can render for South Africa in the future. He, like other hon. members on that side, went back 20 years into the past. It seems that it has become a habit in this House that, no matter what subject is raised for discussion, members on the Government side will take us back 20 years and try to leave us there. I believe that surely the time has come when what happened 20 years ago can well be left in the past. I believe what happened 20 years ago, was a lot better than what is happening now. If the hon. member who has just sat down, felt that he was discriminated against by the Government of the day 20 years ago, perhaps the suggestion might well be made that he was left behind on merit.

I would like to discuss a matter with the hon. the Minister which I raised initially in a question to him on the 7th May of this year, when I asked him whether he would let me have the numbers of hours worked by each race-group in the technical department of the Post Office. The reply I found was most interesting in that one of the first things that came to my notice, was the fact that the reply stated that “the Department does not employ non-white technical staff”. In this debate we have already been told of the “shortages in the telephone service”. My information from officials in the department is that a great many of the shortages are aggravated by this very shortage of staff.

This leads to the further point I wish to make, namely that in the not too distant future the department will take over the Durban telephone exchange. I would like the hon. the Minister to give us the latest information in this regard, but particularly I would ask him to inform me and the House as to the position of the non-white technicians who work for the Durban telephone department. I understand that there are a number of these non-white technicians. I am not aware of their particular grades and capacities. But if the hon. the Minister’s Department does not employ non-white technical staff, what would be the position if in fact the Durban telephone department does employ such people? The following has also been brought to my attention. What will be the position with regard to the members of the Durban telephone company who are in fact unilingual, and what will be their position once they become members of the hon. the Minister’s Department? Will they be handicapped as regards promotion? Will they have the same opportunities and working conditions that they have in the existing set-up? In other words, I think the time has come when the hon. the Minister should give us a clear and full statement as to the position of the take-over of the Durban telephone service and of the position of the staff when it is taken over.

I would also like to deal with the matter relating to staff. I would tell the hon. the Minister that this matter has been brought to me by white members of the Post Office departments. This was the reason for my putting these questions to the Minister. They complained that the number of hours that they work per week in the department is 44, and that the number of hours worked by Coloureds is 48. The hon. the Minister says they are not technicians; one must assume that they are citizens …

Are they Coloureds, Indians or Bantu?

Is the hon. member at it again?

Yes, I am asking a question.

If they work with assistants, the Whites work 44 hours per week, and the assistants have to work 48 hours a week. This is the number of hours they work before they are entitled to claim overtime pay. The Whites maintain that this is creating a position about which they are not happy. If they work 48 hours, it means that they have earned 4 hours overtime pay, and the Coloured working with them on the same job, has not earned a penny overtime, because he has to work 48 hours a week. I understand that this whole question has been raised in the past. My information is that difficulty was encountered because of Civil Service regulations, and so on. I hope the hon. the Minister will be able to tell me what the position is in this regard, because it seems most unfair that the Coloured assistants have to work 48 hours a week on the self same job before he earns overtime pay, whereas the White has to work 44 hours a week.

What do you suggest?

It is obvious that I suggest they should work the same number of hours a week.

And all get the same pay.

And all get the same pay. If they had the rate for the job, this problem would be solved. But it seems so stupid. I have to use those terms, because I think it is the only language that the hon. member on my left will understand. It would perhaps be interesting to the hon. member for Vryheid if he realizes that it was a member of his own constituency and a member of his party that brought this complaint to me because he felt it was unfair to the Coloured people.

Mr. Chairman, at the beginning of his speech the hon. member who has just sat down, once again showed us how afraid the members of the United Party are that we might refer to their record of 20 years ago. Then the hon. member for Port Natal tried to unearth a few bits of gossip for us. I do not think I will take any notice of that gossip. If the hon. the Minister considers it worth his while, he may perhaps react to it.

The real reason why I am on my feet is that I want to avail myself of this opportunity to pay tribute to our Broadcasting Corporation for the fine and excellent programmes it presents.

Current Affairs ! [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member may continue.

Mr. Chairman, as I was saying, I am on my feet to pay tribute to the Broadcasting Corporation for the fine and excellent programmes which are transmitted to our people every day. I, who have the privilege of representing a constituency which is situated in an industrial complex, and where one may perhaps often ponder the question as to whether the lives of our people there are controlled by the stress and strain of life, have come to the definite conclusion that the Broadcasting Corporation is a powerful ally of our ecclesiastical and educational institutions to direct and promote the outlook of our people on life to such an extent that they can believe, even those in the industrial complexes, that one cannot live by bread alone.

I should like to refer to the programmes which have been presented to the people by our Broadcasting Corporation this year. Our people will never forget the programmes, for example, broadcast under the following titles. “Ons land en sy mense”, “Die lewe om ons”, “Die arbeid en die Adel”. For the edification of other members who may not have heard them, I wish these programmes could be presented again. There are also the programmes which have been presented by the English Service, such as “Mirror to Rhodesia”, “Dick King rode this way”. These programmes were appreciated by the people and afforded them much pleasure. Therefore I feel completely at liberty to say thank you on this occasion to the Broadcasting Corporation for having decided in principle to establish a separate broadcasting studio in this industrial complex which needs such a studio of its own so badly. The City Council of Port Elizabeth has submitted a memorandum to the hon. the Minister. I myself have had the privilege of discussing this with him. We have learnt that a great deal of progress has been made with the blueprints for this studio and that construction will probably commence towards the end of this year. Therefore I feel at liberty to ask on this occasion that there should be no delay as regards this essential institution. I know that heavy demands are made on our building industry and our manpower in this country with its rapidly developing industries. At present our community of about 450,000 people must make use of the studio at Grahamstown, which is situated at a great distance. People find it difficult to get there, particularly those who participate in group items. It is difficult to have the necessary recordings made. There are certain studio facilities in Port Elizabeth, but they do not meet the requirements for live transmissions. About three years ago a suitable piece of land for the erection of this studio was transferred to the Broadcasting Corporation by the Municipality of Port Elizabeth. But it is necessary that the erection of a modern broadcasting studio should receive reasonable priority from our Broadcasting Corporation. I have no doubt that our Broadcasting Corporation will fulfil the great expectations of our people. That complex, which is an industrial complex, requires these services very urgently.

Meanwhile our city has also become a university city. Apart from the fact that our university is promoting learning in its purely academic form, there are professors and lecturers who do much for the promotion of art every day. We are grateful to be able to say that there are also other important institutions among both language groups. There are, for example, the Afrikaanse Amateurtoneelvereniging, the Gilbert and Sullivan Dramatic Society, the Port Elizabeth Musical Drama Society, the Groot Mannekoor, the Salon Choir, the Afrikaanse Gemengde Koor, and many institutions and organizations that are prepared to provide the necessary programmes for such a studio, if such a studio is established one day. It was a very great privilege to this community when the Provincial Administration erected a splendid modern theatre there, which can be of service to our people. Therefore, in the few minutes at my disposal, I once again want to pay tribute to our Broadcasting Corporation for the services they have rendered in this area. We believe, and we may say this with pride, that, as far as its domestic services are concerned, the Broadcasting Corporation is continually endeavouring to promote and develop the values we inherited from the West and have made our own. I believe, and I think I can say this without being contradicted, that our people in the industrial areas can enjoy material prosperity and facilities only if they maintain and develop those values in their lives as individuals. Therefore I trust that if our Broadcasting Corporation can erect a studio such as this in that industrial complex, it will always be of assistance to the Broadcasting Corporation in fulfilling its great task.

Mr. Chairman, there are one or two matters I want to raise with the hon. the Minister, but before I do so, I must say that I cannot subscribe to the views just put forward by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (Central) on the excellence of the programmes offered by the S.A.B.C. In regard to one in particular, I must say that I cannot get to my radio fast enough to turn it off when that programme starts. That, of course, is “Current Affairs”. When I hear that hissing, insinuating voice indoctrinating the poor captive audiences all over South Africa, I cannot wait to get to my radio to switch the voice off. I must say that I would have thought that the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (Central), who has such tremendous regard for the value of broadcasting as a means of entertaining the population, and bringing Western civilization and so on to them, might perhaps have put in a plea for the other means of communication … [Interjection]. Yes, I would have put in a plea for better programmes, but secondly I would have thought that the hon. member would have pleaded for the use of the most modern means of communication in this regard. That, of course, is television. It is no use hon. members shrugging this off. We must be just about the only country left on the African continent that does not use it. Much smaller countries, much less rich countries and much less developed countries, all have this most modern means of communication. But because we are in such a state of fear in this country, because we cannot bear to think of the political implications of having programmes which are not fully monitored for the Afrikaans-speaking section of the community … [Interjections]. Yes, it is entirely a political matter. The problems in this regard are not technological or financial. They are entirely political. The Government knows that the Afrikaans-speaking people would inevitably be diverted to programmes which have to come from England and America, because we could not produce enough Afrikaans-language material. That is the only reason why we do not have television. One can only say over and over again that television has the most remarkable educational value. It is used all over the world for educational purposes. Particularly where there are shortages of teachers, the teaching of the best instructors in the country is sent by television all over the rest of the country. It has the most immense value for people who are old, for people who are sick and for people who are lonely. But none of these factors, of course, apparently affects hon. members opposite. One would have thought, with the tremendous rugby fever sweeping South Africa, that perhaps the prospect of sitting cosily in front of a television set and watching the matches being played at different centres, would have moved hon. members, but their patriotism is such that this does not of course affect them in any way. But let me leave that to one side. I am afraid that I was diverted by the passionate thanks of the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (Central) to this rather political diatribe.

Let me get back to what I really wanted to talk about. Firstly I want to raise an issue with the hon. the Minister which I raised with his predecessor last year and the year before, namely if he will not consider, in view of the big delay in regard to trunk calls in South Africa, changing the system as far as the charges for trunk calls are concerned. He may be aware that in England and in America it is the custom to charge half rates on Sundays. Indeed, every telephone book in England has printed across it in large letters “Cheaper on Sundays”. The idea is of course, to divert the public from using telephones for trunk calls during business hours, so that calls could be made on Sundays, calls such as family calls and ordinary long-distance social calls. For this the charge is half-price on Sundays. In South Africa exactly the opposite system obtains. We charge one and a half times the rate for trunk calls on Sundays, and on certain public holidays, and therefore, of course, the tendency is to divert people from Sunday calls to the ordinary business week. I think that this is a very stupid system. I know that the hon. the Minister’s predecessor said that the reason was the shortage of staff and the fact that he had to consider the Post Office staff who did not want to work on Sundays and so on. But, Sir, make it worth their while and they will work on Sundays. This is an essential service. There are men on the Post Office staff working right through the night every night. If we reward them for this additional work, then I think we will have people volunteering to do this work. The same must apply in every other country in the world; there too there are staffs who have to work on Sundays and they presumably receive better pay for it. The hon. the Minister’s predecessor also said that he hoped that he would be able to change to this new system of charges that I am suggesting when we have more automatic exchanges. I think over the last year we have increased the number of direct dialling facilities in South Africa, and I hope therefore that he might be in a position to say that very soon people will be able to put trunk calls through on Sundays at half price instead of at one and a half times the normal cost. I think the same should apply to calls after 8 p.m. This will also divert trunk calls from office hours to after office hours, and thus, I should think, spread the load, which is the main reason for the tremendous delays that one encounters on some of these long-distance calls. Then, Sir, I would like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he would not change his mind about these awful new telephone books with which we are now presented in Johannesburg, where only one name appears and thereafter only the initials. It is much more difficult now to look up telephone numbers. If the telephone books are getting too large, then we ought to do what other countries do and that is to have two telephone books for the very large centres. Finally I want to raise with the hon. the Minister the question of the differential pay between Coloured and White postmen. In an article which appeared in The Argus on the 6th October last year, the President of the Coloured Postal Employees Association, at the opening of their second triennial conference at Lansdowne, deplored the growing gap between the salaries of White and Coloured postmen since they were organized into two separate associations. The fact is of course, that as soon as there is a split of trade unions on a racial basis, it is always the non-White unions which suffer. He went on to say—

Indeed, he says that a Coloured postmaster earns less than a White postman. Sir, I can see no justification for these tremendous discrepancies. Indeed, I can see no justification for any discrepancy in pay because the same work is done and presumably the same training is given to these men. To pay these different rates purely on the basis of colour seems to be manifestly unjust, and I hope that the Minister will have some explanation other than the rather fatuous one that one gets in this House over and over again on a subject like this and that is that the Coloured man lives at a lower standard. Well, he lives at a lower standard because he has to do so because his salary is lower. It is not that he wishes to live at a lower standard. If the pay was on the same scale, he too would like to enjoy more of the amenities of life. [Time expired.]

Before the business of the House was interrupted, the hon. member for East London (North) had delivered a lengthy discourse here on the present standard of our series of stamps and on the unpleasant appearance to him of a stamp. The series of stamps we have at the moment have been in use since we became a Republic. We are not a country which changes our stamps every year. Neither can I understand how the hon. member could advance such arguments, because he should have realized that the Department cannot satisfy all tastes when issuing a series of stamps. When stating that there were ten million stamp collectors in the U.S.A, alone, he wanted to suggest that we could earn foreign exchange with our stamps. That is indeed the case, but South Africa is not a second rate country which has to earn foreign exchange with stamp issues which change every month or every year. If we earn foreign exchange with our stamps it is purely a coincidence. However, I believe that when something special happens in a country, something that justifies the issuing of a special stamp or set of stamps, such special stamps should, indeed, be issued. I regard the world’s first heart transplantation which was carried out at the Groote Schuur Hospital as such an event. To me that was an event which would justify the issuing of a special stamp or set of stamps. Stamps bearing the message of the heart transplantation will carry South Africa’s achievement in this regard out into the whole world, and I, therefore, want to ask the Minister to give serious consideration to the appearance of such a series of stamps. I do not want to tell him how many stamps there should be, but he could possibly consider issuing three stamps, one which may perhaps be in honour of Professor Barnard and his team, one honouring the first two patients and donors, and the third in honour of the Groote Schuur Hospital as such.

There is another matter I should like to mention. I have noticed in the Press recently that the Department is making postal deliveries in suburban residential areas by buzz-bikes. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that I think that here his Department has a possible solution for a major problem. I want to invite him, as far as Pretoria is concerned to conduct those experiments in my constituency as soon as possible. I believe that with the co-operation of the local authority and the house-owners in the various towns, we can really do something here to speed-up the delivery of mail. In fact, I think it could be done twice as quickly. As I see it, local authorities could make special provision for letter-boxes to be erected along the streets; house-owners living next to one another could have their letter-boxes at one spot along the street in order to cut the stopping-points of the postman by half. I want to congratulate the Department on this experiment. As the hon. the Minister probably knows, there are many problems as regards postal deliveries in my constituency, and I want to tell him that my constituents will give him all the assistance to make this experiment a success.

I believe the hon. member for Waterkloof missed the point in the speech of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) when he spoke about stamps and the great value they can be for publicizing South Africa. After all, no fewer than 70 million pieces of mail are sent out of South Africa to other countries yearly, and surely it is only commonsense to see that the stamps we use on those envelopes are of the highest quality artistically.

It will not surprise hon. members if I say a few words about television this evening. Naturally, after the events during the first half of this year, one feels reasonably sure that one has been correct in the past in saying that television is inevitable and that it must come. When one sees the change of heart, the change of mind and the change of conscience on the part of hon. members opposite, one can only be happy about such a metamorphosis in their outlook.

During the first few months of this year two of the main arguments against television have almost disappeared. The first was the argument in regard to costs, and with it, I see, has disappeared the main arguer, the main proponent of that argument that television would cost so much. That is the hon. member for Randfontein, who I believe is the chairman of their Posts and Telegraphs group. It is strange that he is not here to-night because he is the person from whom I would have liked to hear this evening how much television would actually cost. That argument was actually killed by the hon. the Minister himself earlier this year when he pointed out that with a limited television service the cost would be R24 million a year, and of that I believe R21 million would be capital, and I am quite sure that the rest of it could be covered very easily by advertising. The argument of cost against television, as it appears, no longer exists.

Now you are talking nonsense.

Fine. Let the Minister then tell us whether he told me that it would cost, for 10 stations, and a bilingual service in Afrikaans and English plus a non-white service, R24 million a year, and did he subsequently say that of that, R21 million would be capital and that running expenses would only be R3.5 million, apart from the cost of programmes and interest?

Read my speech.

I have it here. That is what the Minister said, and I quite accept those figures of his because they prove that television will not cost so much.

The second argument that has completely disappeared in the sand is the moral argument against television, and here I am very surprised not to see the hon. member for Innesdal here to-night, the man who was going to saye us from the “moral horrors” of television. The hon. member for Sunnyside also spoke about television as being such a great moral evil. The hon. member should do what I do. He should read a very good weekly paper, Die Kerkbode. I wonder whether he does read Die Kerkbode. I have the edition of Die Kerkbode here of 17th April, 1968. It is the official organ of the most powerful Afrikaans church in South Africa, and this article is headed “Van Kerklike Kant”, in other words, it is official, and the following appears in it in regard to television—

And “moet” is in italics—

That is also correct. What does the hon. member for Sunnyside say now? This is Die Kerkbode, and these people know more about moral problems than he and I do, I think. They say—

There is no fixed objection on principle against television, the article says. You cannot object to television on moral grounds. These are the words of Die Kerkbode and however authoritative the words of the hon. member for Turffontein might be, I still believe Die Kerkbode before I believe him.

In the few minutes left to me I want to come to the S.A.B.C. We have laid down certain principles which we of the United Party believe in regard to the S.A.B.C. I want to indicate how some of these principles are being flagrantly violated to-day by the Board of Governors. One of these principles is that the S.A.B.C. should be meticulous in granting equal rights to the Afrikaans and English-speaking sections in South Africa. I believe that is not being done and I believe that I as an Afrikaans-speaking South African should probably raise this here where my English-speaking friends might be too modest to do it, and because nobody can accuse me of being partial in this matter.

I have gone into the composition of the S.A.B.C. and I do believe that it is by no means as impartial to the two main white sections of the population as it should be. Let us look at the Board of Governors. In the past, of the nine members of the Board, five evidently were Afrikaans speaking and four English speaking. Then suddenly last year the picture changed. I asked the hon. the Minister how many of the members of the Board were Afrikaans speaking and how many were English speaking. The Minister, reminding me of his predecessor, confessed that he did not know, because he said they were not appointed on the basis of their home language. Well, I have a letter in my file signed by the Director of Management of the S.A.B.C., who at least knows more about these matters than the Minister does, and in that letter he gives the names of each of the directors and points out that six of them are Afrikaans-speaking and three are English-speaking. I hardly think that is according to the 50-50 principle we have been used to. I took the trouble in the Library to look up in Who is Who the names and the qualifications of the three English-speaking members of the Board of Governors, and I found two of the names. The third one I did not find there, but I found it in another book called Wie is Wie in Suid-Afrika. I am not sure whether that is one of the main reasons why that particular person was appointed. I have here official figures given by the S.A.B.C. in regard to the number of Afrikaans-and English-speaking people on the establishment. The fact is that there are 550 Afrikaans-speaking people and only 366 English-speaking people. On the administrative staff there are 287 Afrikaansspeaking people, against only 87 English-speaking people. In other words, they outnumber the English-speaking members 3 to 1. I would have objected as strongly if it had been otherwise, if the English-speaking members outnumbered the Afrikaans-speaking members by 3 to 1. I think I have pointed out that I do not think the S.A.B.C. is adhering to that principle which we all accept and which is enshrined in our Constitution, that there should be equality between the two language groups in South Africa.

There are other principles, too, which I adumbrated in this House before in regard to the S.A.B.C. and which I believe are being broken by this Government. I want to refer to one in particular. We have a principle which says that parliamentary control should be exercised over the way the money of the S.A.B.C. is spent. I do not believe that parliamentary control is being exercised, even as it can be done under the Broadcast Act today. I want to refer to one instance. In Auckland Park there is a huge 32-storeyed building being erected at present, which will cost between R10 million and R15 million. The Minister does not know how much it will cost. I asked him a question about it and he said he did not know, and that it was a question for the S.A.B.C. to decide. My objection to that building is in regard to the financial—I can only call it—irregularity in regard to the tenders and in regard to the wastage of money. That building was first started and tenders were called for in one area in Johannesburg, and at least R 100,000 was spent on building the basement of that building, but afterwards the plans were scrapped, a new building was erected, and the new building contract was granted to the same person, to the same builders, without again asking for new tenders. Hundreds of thousands of rands were lost and I believe that in a matter such as this it is the duty of the Minister to investigate it and to find out what has happened and whether tenders were called for again for this new building and how much money was wasted on that huge hole which was dug, which I believe cost hundreds of thousands of rands, and why the money of which we are the guardians is being wasted in this way. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Orange Grove has come along here again with his old story about television, but this story is a hackneyed one. Not even his own side is interested in his television bogey any more. For the hon. member’s information I can just mention that there is an article in to-night’s Cape Argus with the heading “T.V. to blame for violence?, U.S. asks”. I do not want to say anything about television at all, because the hon. the Minister has repeatedly stated quite clearly in this Chamber what the policy of this side is as far as television is concerned. If the hon. member for Orange Grove wants to ride a donkey sway-backed, let him ride a donkey on that side, because on this side there is no donkey to be found.

Some donkeys have beards.

Now he is back to the S.A.B.C. and the two language groups again. What is the actual position? Let us take education. What is the ratio between the language groups as far as teachers are concerned? The teachers are predominantly Afrikaans speaking. But whose fault is it? The fact is that the English-speaking people are simply not prepared to be trained as teachers. The same could apply in the case of the S.A.B.C. This nation has become more mature, and if the Opposition thinks they can make political capital out of it by shouting to the outside world that the English-speaking people are not treated properly, the English-speaking people will not be impressed. The hon. member for Orange Grove is supposed to be an Afrikaner, but by his actions he is not impressing the Afrikaner either. But I want to say this to you, Sir: He is not impressing the English speaking South Africans either simply because the English-speaking South African respects somebody of strong character and with fixed principles, somebody who stands by his principles. He has no respect for somebody who goes around scavenging in an effort to cause a rift between the two language groups. He has no respect for somebody who woos a language group which he does not belong to at all. The hon. member for Orange Grove is always making this type of attack. It is shocking when somebody makes such attacks in this Chamber, considering the fact that the nation recognizes both language groups. Yet the hon. member is still trying to cause a rift.

The hon. the Minister stated quite clearly, honestly and sincerely here to-night that a backlog does exist in our telephone services. He also set out the reasons for it quite clearly. The way the Opposition acted after that clear and honest explanation had been given, was shocking, because the Minister indicated the true reasons for the backlog. Let me also add that the Opposition is to a large extent to blame for the backlog. I am not talking about the days when they were in power, but about what also happened during the past 20 years, and I am going to prove my statement now. When we had to develop this country economically, what was their contribution? What was their contribution to our becoming a Republic? They caused panic. There was no confidence in South Africa overseas. Our reserves diminished until there was virtually nothing left. Therefore the postal profits had to go to the Treasury and essential work could not be carried out as a result of that. The reason was simply that we also had to rely on our Postal Services to finance our State expenditure. However, we are dealing with a new set-up in terms of which the Post Office will take its rightful place as an organization established on business principles. Let me make it quite clear: I am convinced that this Minister will not only be intent upon making a profit as the Opposition would have been. The Minister is striving towards higher ideals, namely greater efficiency for the general public. He will try to achieve this. Mention was made here of the officials. Surely, it is logical that the cart cannot be harnessed before the horse. It is sound business principles that the employees should also share in the profits. I think that even the hon. member for Houghton will for once agree with me on this score, namely that a portion of the profits will eventually go to the officials. In no business undertaking the cream is scooped away. We are not dealing here with the type of member who sits on that side. We are dealing here with people whose intentions are honest as far as the development of South Africa is concerned.

I want to thank the Minister sincerely for what he has done in respect of the backlog which we had in Rustenburg. He was instrumental in accelerating the automation of our telephone services there. I want to make a serious plea to-night that where there are growth points and where manual exchanges still exist, we as members of Parliament should regard it as our duty to ask the general public to place human relationships first. It is a shocking thing to see what attitude is sometimes adopted towards the young, inexperienced girls who work in the exchanges. Some members of the general public adopt a very poor attitude. I have investigated the situation in my constituency and I say here to-night that those people who usually act bombastically, those people who say unpleasant and coarse things, are people who support that side of the House. Why is that so? Because the poison disseminated by a member like the hon. member for Orange Grove causes such feelings among the people. An antipathy was built up against the Department in the English Press and when the girls at the exchanges answer the phone, they are repeatedly insulted by certain persons. Since we are experiencing a labour shortage to-day, I cannot associate myself with this manner of addressing people. I want to plead that better personal relationships be displayed towards die young people who are rendering excellent service in our manual exchanges.

Those accusations are scandalous.

They are not scandalous. The hon. member for East London (City) knows that his people do it.

Yes, the United Party members are rude.

I am not saying only the United Party members, but one mostly finds that kind of behaviour among people who support that side of the House because they are incited by people like the hon. members for Orange Grove and East London (City). An hon. member opposite made the same accusation against a certain exchange to-day, and this is the kind of accusation which is disseminated over the whole country. Then the supporters of that side of the House respond in such a way towards innocent female employees who have nothing to do with the backlog. They have nothing to do with it anyway.

I now want to deal with another matter, which is of great importance to me, and that is the question of our aged persons who receive their social pensions at the post office every month. (Interjections.) The hon. member for East London (City) has never had the privilege of seeing Rustenburg, and if he were to come there, the people would hold him in contempt because of the way he acts in this matter. The people of Rustenburg will refuse to know him. (Interjections.) The hon. member for East London (City) must allow me to make my speech. The hon. member for Bezuidenhout could only last two minutes in Rustenburg, but the hon. member for East London (City) will not be able to last half a minute there.

(Inaudible.)

Order!

Mr. Chairman, I am dealing with a serious matter, and if the hon. member for East London (City) will refrain from interfering with me I shall not interfere with him either. (Interjections.) Yes, I represent the constituency of Paul Kruger and I am particularly proud of it. You, Brigadier Bronkhorst, will never have that privilege. You will never be able to have that privilege.

Order! The hon. member must address the Chair.

I want to tell the hon. member for North Rand that he will never have the privilege of representing that constituency, Paul Kruger’s country. It would be a blot on that constituency. But I want to plead for our aged who have to draw their pensions at post offices throughout the whole country every month. I do not want to say that the Post Office is not rendering good service in this connection, but I would like to ask that we direct our efforts towards even better services for these aged, these social pensioners, these cripples, these persons suffering from handicaps. We must pay attention to the quality of the services rendered to them. We must bring about improvements at our post offices wherever it is at all possible. We must make it more comfortable for them, for example by providing larger benches, and so forth. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is not necessary for me to reply to the bitter personal and unbridled attack which the hon. member for Rustenburg has made on the hon. member for Orange Grove this evening. The hon. member for Orange Grove …

Mr… should be hounded out of this House.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, is an hon. member entitled to say that another hon. member should be hounded out of this House?

Who said that?

I said so, Mr. Chairman.

The hon. member must withdraw it.

I withdraw it, Mr. Chairman.

On the contrary, the users of the Post Office and telephone services in this country can be eternally grateful to the hon. member for Orange Grove for consistently over the years exposing by his criticism the weaknesses that existed in that system. The hon. member for Rustenburg has made one of the most extraordinary statements I have ever listened to in this Committee. He said that not even we on this side of the House supported the hon. member for Orange Grove when it came to television. Not merely does each and every member on this side of the House support wholeheartedly the hon. member for Orange Grove in this respect, but I want to tell that hon. member that if a secret referendum were to be held throughout the country on the question of television, the people of this country would overwhelmingly vote for television. And I think that applies even to some of the hon. members on that side of the House. If it were a secret referendum they would vote in favour of television. Furthermore, one of the best speeches that we have heard to-day in favour of television on another Vote, has been that of the hon. member for Brakpan. Under the Planning Vote he complained that the sporting bodies were exploiting the people of this country by charging excessive prices for seats at sporting occasions such as rugby tests. He told us how he had to climb up huge stands at Loftus Versfeld during the last test and how, when he got there, he had to try and position his posterior on a seat which was the size of a postage stamp. Those were not quite the words he used, but I think even that hon. member, if he could have reflected on the comfort of watching television down here in Cape Town, and seen that rugby test, he too would cast his vote in favour of television in this country.

And what would that have cost him?

Probably a lot less than the price he had to pay for the seat that he complained about.

Mr. Chairman, I want to come back to a matter which I have discussed, not only with the hon. the Minister, but with his predecessor on more than one occasion. This concerns the projected removal of the Eastern Cape headquarters of the S.A.B.C. from Grahamstown to Port Elizabeth. Earlier this evening the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (Central) made a plea here that Port Elizabeth should get its own broadcasting studios.

(Inaudible.)

Well, you hoped that it would be possible. The hon. member said that Port Elizabeth was a big industrial city and that it was entitled to its own broadcasting studios. I am not going to join issue with him on that. I think a town of that size is entitled to its own broadcasting studios. But I want to say to the hon. member that everything must not be removed from a small country town to a big industrial town. If broadcasting studios are set up in Port Elizabeth it must not be done at the expense of the existing studios in Grahamstown. The hon. member’s city has managed to pinch quite a lot from the particular town that I represent, namely Grahamstown. We have had the removal of the Divisional Police Headquarters consisting of some eight white families. When the C.S.I.R. took over the Wool Textile Research Institute another 21 white families were removed. Then too, Radio Bantu was moved, not to Port Elizabeth, but to King William’s Town. This plus the projected move of the Eastern Cape regional headquarters to Port Elizabeth, would mean another 28 families. A town of 11,000 white people simply cannot afford this drain of Government institutions being removed and being put into large cities which do not need these people.

Do you want the test to be played in Grahamstown?

That would be a very good thing and we would not charge so much for the seats. The loss of these people is a tremendous drain on the economy of a small town like that and there is no need in this particular instance for the headquarters to be moved to Port Elizabeth. After all, if Port Elizabeth is going to get its own studios— and there is already a studio of Radio Bantu in King William’s Town—then surely the sensible and logical place for the regional headquarters is to be midway between these two towns, namely King William’s Town and Port Elizabeth. From there the regional headquarters could control both the studios in Port Elizabeth and the existing studios in Grahamstown as well as Radio Bantu in King William’s Town. I want to make a very earnest appeal to the hon. the Minister. I know that the S.A.B.C. is a semi-autonomous body but I want to make an earnest appeal to him. The Government tells us that it is in favour of decentralizing industry. Now, this is obviously not a factory or an industry in the normal sense of the word, but people, and particularly in our country the white people, mean economic development and economic progress. If these institutions are to be moved into the big cities which do not need them, then it is running directly counter to what the Government profess to be their own policy. This depopulation of our rural areas is a serious matter, particularly in the Eastern Cape. It is not merely a matter of people being removed from the farms, but it is a matter of these people being removed from the smaller towns. I therefore make a plea to the hon. the Minister to use his influence with the broadcasting corporation and not to move these particular regional headquarters away from Grahamstown.

Mr. Chairman, when the hon. member for Orange Grove spoke a short while ago he mentioned—and I should like the hon. member to pay attention now—that he wanted to say something which he knew the English-speaking people would not say. Therefore that hon. member admits unblushingly that his English-speaking colleagues in this House and in South Africa would not get as banal as he did here.

You would call it racialism.

That is precisely what that member is doing. I think that hon. member ought to be ashamed of himself. It is shocking the way he carried on here, and as an Afrikaans-speaking person at that. He maintains here that the hon. the Minister does not see to justice being done to the English-speaking section of South Africa, because six Afrikaans-speaking members and three English-speaking members serve on this board consisting of nine members. If there were ten members and the ratio was six Afrikaans-speaking members to four English-speaking members, would that be correct or not? Is that not the correct ratio between Afrikaans-speaking people and English-speaking people in this country?

Is it 50-50?

No, is it fair? Should the Afrikaans-speaking people yield to the English-speaking people? That is only one question. But I want to go much further than this. I want to challenge that hon. member to produce proof to me and to convince this House of the English-speaking section in this country having been done out of anything as far as the S.A.B.C. is concerned. They have not been done out of anything. We may perhaps maintain that that has happened to the Afrikaans-speaking section.

Do not talk rubbish.

You must not talk rubbish.

Order!

I apologize and withdraw.

The hon. member may not use English and Afrikaans in the same speech.

Let us take Springbok Radio. On Springbok Radio far more English than Afrikaans is used.

It is a commercial radio station.

Now all of a sudden it is “commercial”. What about the language? Let that hon. member who complains about the fact that the Afrikaans-speaking members outnumber the English-speaking members by one on that board—and remember these people are completely bilingual—tell me in what way the members of that Board have discriminated against English in this country. No, that hon. member is merely trying to chase up hares. Year after year the Opposition comes along with this sort of thing. They forget how the language question was handled when they were in power. The hon. member knows this and he can simply consult Die Kruithoring. The hon. member is becoming so embarrassed that he can no longer remain in his seat, and has to walk away. He cannot look me in the face. The hon. member also said that the staff consisted of a certain number of Afrikaans-speaking members and of a certain number of English-speaking members. He said the ratio was three to one in favour of the Afrikaans-speaking section. He maintained there was discrimination against the English-speaking section on the grounds of their home language. Wherever a person is appointed to the staff, however, he is appointed on the basis of his qualifications. If English-speaking people do not apply, should the board take them by the scruff of the neck and tell them to take the job? What is the hon. member doing? I think the hon. member should be more responsible than that. Instead of paying tribute to the S.A.B.C. for what it means to South Africa, he disparages the S.A.B.C. We know that this hon. member does not care two hoots about South Africa. He is only looking for opportunities to steal a political march or to make political capital. When we consider what the S.A.B.C. regardless of whether its board consists of nine members of whom six are Afrikaans-speaking and three are English-speaking or whether the ratio between English-speaking and Afrikaans-speaking officials and clerks is not 50-50 exactly, is doing for South Africa, I believe that there is no other institution in South Africa which can come anywhere near the S.A.B.C.

Let us take a look at what is being done in regard to external services. I just want to tell the hon. member that in the 14,849 letters which came from all over the world, the English-speaking world, nothing but the highest praise and respect were expressed to the S.A.B.C. for its unprejudiced, excellent and factual news reporting. The hon. member probably received the annual report of the S.A.B.C. I think that we should praise the S.A.B.C. for this excellent annual report. In this report he can read pages and pages of excerpts from letters from overseas, and see for himself what praise the S.A.B.C. receives for this proper and unbiased service it is rendering not only to South Africa but also to the outside world. We also want to express our gratitude this evening for this service which the S.A.B.C. is rendering on behalf of South Africa in order to acquaint the outside world with South Africa’s good name, way of life, traditions and customs. We see that prior to 1966 the external service made one broadcast in English to Europe per day. In addition to that, the broadcasts of the S.A.B.C. covered the whole of Africa, the Middle East, Canada and the U.S.A. We see that this service to Europe has been extended as from 5th March, 1967, with broadcasts in French, Dutch, Afrikaans, German and Portuguese, so that Radio South Africa has been broadcasting 24 hours per day since that date. All this is being done to spread the good name of South Africa and not to make propaganda as that hon. member maintains. The S.A.B.C. is acquainting the outside world with our way of life, traditions, news and good name, but we hear nothing from the hon. member as far as that is concerned. In addition to the six languages I have mentioned, Radio South Africa also broadcasts in Swahili for Eastern Africa, Tsonga for Mozambique and Zulu for Rhodesia. That means that broadcasts are made in nine languages to countries abroad. The S.A.B.C. is rendering a service to South Africa and its people which no other institution can equal. But I think that we should thank these people instead of discrediting them. That is what that hon. member tried to do. But he himself has already been discredited to such an extent that he no longer cares what he does. We in this House should in fact express the gratitude of South Africa to all the officials of the S.A.B.C.

We find that at the end of 1967 the overseas transcription service of Radio South Africa provided 497 radio stations in 83 countries with programmes. Does that hon. member realize what this means? He does not realize what it means. I think it is too much for him to grasp. Let me also tell the hon. member for Orange Grove that as far as those 83 countries are concerned, it is estimated that there is a potential of 385,679,802 radio sets. What a mass of people are not being reached! But hon. members do not see that. They will not express their appreciation. I think we should thank the S.A.B.C. very much for that service. Why does this hon. member not also tell us how efficient the S.A.B.C. is? He merely tries to be disparaging. I am just going to quote one example of its efficiency. I can go on talking about it for the entire evening. When I consult the annual report and see in what a sound financial position the S.A.B.C. finds itself, I can go on talking about that for the entire evening. But in conclusion I am going to mention one example only. The percentage increase in the number of broadcasting hours from 1961 to 1967 came to 234 per cent. The increase in staff was only 39.8 per cent. If that is not efficiency for you, then I do not know what efficiency is. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is quite obvious what has happened here this evening. A lot of Nationalist Party members have come here with prepared speeches to say what wonderful work the department is doing, what a wonderful Minister it has, etcetera. The Minister himself by admitting honestly, as he did, that there were many problems to be faced and that there were tremendous difficulties to be overcome, has simply cut the ground under the feet of all the hon. members who spoke here to-night. That is the reason for hon. members, such as the hon. member for Rustenburg and the hon. member who has just sat down, making the personal attacks they have been reduced to this evening. They made nothing else but personal attacks. Those hon. members have not contributed anything to the constructive side of this debate at all. They did not answer any criticism at all. The reason, as I say, lies with the hon. the Minister himself. I want to give him credit for doing what he did here this evening, by admitting that there are gaps in the service, and that there is leeway to be made up.

[Inaudible.]

Order! The hon. member is quite capable of making his own speech.

The reason why I stood up is that I have several points to raise on behalf of my constituency which concern the hon. the Minister’s department. I was interested to hear that he is investigating the use of the micro-wave system to improve the telephone facilities to those areas which are snowbound in the winter, because a large portion of my constituency is in that condition. In some cases areas are cut off by snow for weeks. This is a very serious matter when farming areas, in particular where there are young families, are cut off in this way. It occurred to me that the hon. the Minister might also like to say something about research that is being done to improve the radio reception in these mountain areas. The position in many areas of my constituency and all along the Drakensberg in Natal, is that many people depend a great deal on the radio. I think it is something we ought not to be so happy about. But they depend a great deal on the radio for entertainment and for their contact with the outside world, because they are so far distant.

Then there is nothing wrong with the radio, is there?

This hon. member for Jeppe must be making his maiden speech; he has interjected five times this evening. [Interjections.] Perhaps he thinks he is on television. I would like to appeal to the hon. the Minister to investigate improving the reception. I mention specifically the area in my constituency, the area of Underberg. They have tremendous problems as regards radio reception. The same applies all along the Drakensberg area in Natal. I am not an expert or a technician as far as radio is concerned, and whether the FM. line of sight cannot be used to bring better reception to those areas, I do not know.

Did you check the aerials?

I would be interested to hear from the hon. the Minister, on behalf of those people, whether he has anything to say and whether he would investigate and undertake to look into the matter.

The other question I should like to raise with the hon. Minister is the delivery of mailbags. This is a matter around which there has been considerable controversy in my area for a long time now. I remember that it came up just before the election of 1966. My opponent, the Nationalist Party candidate, went to great pains to make sure that the deliveries of these mailbags were not curtailed. This might have helped him in his campaign because he got two more votes than I had allowed him. At any rate, he was very active, as I was in my own way, to ensure that the deliveries of mailbags were not curtailed. I wonder whether the Minister would like to make a statement on the policy of the Post Office in so far as the delivery of mailbags in rural areas is concerned. I ask this because this is a matter which is continually under siege, because you continually hear of alterations having been made, of runs which have been curtailed, and so on. For those who live a far way from the local urban area or village the delivery of post by mailrunners is of considerable importance. Hence my request to the Minister for a statement. I hope, of course, that he will tell us that he has no intention of cutting down on these deliveries in the rural areas. This is a possibility which concerns people in the rural area very much. The alternative for them is to travel up to 25 miles in some cases to fetch the post themselves. On the other hand, this arrangement whereby the Post Office employs people, usually Bantu on bicycles, as mailrunners, is an arrangement of long standing. In the circumstances I hope the Minister will say something about the rights of these people to have their mail delivered to them; if not a right then at least a privilege which they have enjoyed for a long time. Does the Minister intend keeping this arrangement going?

On this occasion I should like to pay tribute to the Christmas Fund of Springbok Radio. Three years ago Springbok Radio took the initiative as regards the establishment of a Christmas Fund to which people can make contributions which will benefit the various welfare organizations in our country. This fund came into being through the co-operation of a number of welfare organizations. People who have been assisted through this fund are the aged in our country, organizations for child welfare, family care and for handicapped persons. Last year alone more than R219,000 was collected. On this amount R48,000 went to family care; R85,000 to child care; R43,000 to the aged; and approximately R43,000 to the handicapped. Springbok Radio took the initiative, not only in rendering welfare services, but also in exploiting a new field on behalf of the welfare services of our country. We have great appreciation for the way in which Springbok Radio took the initiative so as to enable people of the business world, and everyone who wants to contribute to such a fund, to do so. Now we know that there are other organizations who eye those amounts collected greedily in the hope that they will also benefit from them. But the fact of the matter is that Springbok Radio itself does not render welfare services, although it is registered as a welfare organization. The funds it collects in this way are handed over to the various welfare organizations which spend those funds in the interests of the indigent in our country.

I want to extend my sincere thanks to the hon. the Minister and the Board of Governors of the S.A.B.C. who agreed to this arrangement, and on behalf of the various welfare organizations I want to pay tribute to Springbok Radio for the initiative it has displayed in this regard.

We had to listen to-night to another plea by the hon. member for Orange Grove for the introduction of television. Every time he speaks about it, and particularly when he resorted to quoting Die Kerkbode to-night, I am reminded of the well-known Afrikaans saying “Elke ketter het sy letter” (‘Every heretic has his own bible’). I think he proved nothing in his speech to-night except that he is sectarian in politics, because he only quoted certain things from a church publication and built a whole political and quasi-theological standpoint on them. But he only read one single edition of Die Kerkbode, and I may say that he is definitely slow of comprehension as far as the standpoint of Die Kerkbode in this connection is concerned. He quoted from what the columnist Herbert had to say about television. Then the hon. member presented the position as being that this columnist stated the official standpoint of the Dutch Reformed Church. But the hon. member is very far from the truth. Herbert is an individual writer who is only stating his own views. In fact, the hon. member for Orange Grove cannot produce any proof at all that Herbert reflects the official standpoint of the Dutch Reformed Church. I can give the hon. member the assurance that Herbert does not even reflect the standpoint of the editorial staff of Die Kerkbode. The column which Herbert wrote in Die Kerkbode of 8th May, 1968, proves that what he says is his own personal standpoint. In that article, under the heading “Reaction in regard to television”, he referred to the criticism which had been expressed in the Transvaal newspaper Hoofstad of 15th April about his, that is to say, Herbert’s, recent plea in favour of television. Then he explained that in the public debate on television it was his intention to approach the matter from a theological point of view. He wrote further (translation)—

Therefore the hon. member for Orange Grove presented this columnist’s views completely out of context to us this evening. It is childish of him to think that this House is incapable of judging the various churches’ standpoints on television for itself. As far as I know, the Dutch Reformed Church has not yet taken up any official standpoint in regard to television.

I want to read a few quotations to the hon. member in order to show what churches have said about television. The Rev. L. M. van Niekerk, a minister of the Dutch Reformed Church, had the following to say upon returning from Rhodesia after having stayed there for seven years …

Here he adopts more or less the same theological view as Herbert does. He continued—

The National Council of the Churches of Christ in America says that this mass medium of communication is forced to offer programmes and advertisements without regard to what happens to the people who view them. The Free Church Federal Council says —

That word sex had to come …

The hon. member for Port Natal would do well to listen. The Roman Catholic Body in England and Wales says—

Then, in an article “The Christian and his World” which appeared in Die Transvaler, Dr J. P. Oberholzer said the following—

I want to conclude by saying that one can make the general statement that the material cultural products of Western man have grown enormously and phenomenally. It is very difficult to determine what effiect this development has in the spiritual field and I know that Christian leaders throughout the world are struggling with this problem, namely the extent to which these material cultural products of man do have such an influence on his spiritual life and his mental make-up that it will be to the detriment of mankind as such. That is why I am particularly grateful, as one who has been in the religious field, that our Government is also handling these particular problems which crop up as a result of the products of man, in such a way that they will not frustrate and disintegrate the structure of our society, and that it is giving due attention to the effect which these material cultural products of man will have on family life. Therefore we are grateful that the Government is adopting such a responsible attitude. But for these hon. members to say that churches are now adamantly pleading for television in South Africa is the worst blunder which any person can make. I want the hon. member for Orange Grove to stand up now and to prove that the words which he used were correct and true.

Mr. Chairman, we know of course that the hon. member for Rissik, who has just spoken, is a member of the right wing of the “verkramptes”. Therefore we can understand that he sings the praises of the S.A.B.C., which is dominated to-day by a board of directors who also represent that right wing. The hon. member tried to create doubt about the article which appeared in Die Kerkbode and which approved of television. I ask him to re-read that article and I ask him to deny that it states the following: Firstly, there is no objection in principle to television; secondly, television must come; thirdly television is a gift of God. These statements are made in that article, which appeared in a column which is not merely a personal column written by some contributor, but a column under the heading “Van Kerklike Kant”. The hon. member has Die Kerkbode before him, and he can read it himself. What is the heading of the column? black on white it says: “Van Kerklike Kant”. Is this correct or not?

This is merely the personal opinion of the author.

I wanted to mention a few other matters concerning the S.A.B.C. in my original speech, and this I now want to do briefly. One of the principles of this side is that the hon. the Minister should make more extensive use of his powers under the Act itself to see to it, in terms of the licence which he is entitled to issue to the S.A.B.C., that the S.A.B.C. is and continues to be an impartial body. The Minister’s predecessor changed that licence last year. When an immigrant was appointed to the staff of the S.A.B.C. in the past, the Minister first had to grant his approval. However, this has been changed now; it is no longer necessary that he should grant his approval. The Minister knows what happened last year. The S.A.B.C. appointed a man to the staff, a man who was caught by the police at Jan Smuts airport with propaganda against South Africa. While he was employed by the S.A.B.C. he sent dirty, filthy and mean reports against South Africa overseas. But the Minister does not want to provide in the licence that he should have control over the appointments.

Are you not ashamed of yourself? That licence has not been changed. Are you not ashamed of yourself?

The Minister told me that section 17 of that licence had been changed. He may ask his own supporters. It was in reply to a question of mine. He told me that that section had been changed. Does he not read his own replies? I tell him now that section 17 of the licence has indeed been changed. Does he deny it? Or will he apologize to me to-morrow?

Yes, I told you that.

Has it been changed, yes or no?

I told you you should be ashamed of yourself.

Has section 17 been changed, yes or no? We know it has been changed. I have it myself, black on white, in a reply given by the hon. the Minister. Let us hear from him to-morrow. If that section had not been changed, I doubt whether it would have been possible for another member of the S.A.B.C. to do what he in fact did. His name was mentioned in the Press and everywhere, and I can mention it as well. I am referring to a certain Mr. Bas Goedhart, who criticized the immigration policy of this Government in such a base manner that even the hon. member for Potchefstroom, who I believe is chairman of the national council of the Rapportryers, whatever that may mean, called this person to his senses at a public meeting. The Minister says he does not want that control. That person, a staff member of the S.A.B.C., made such attacks on the Government. He attacked a reasonable immigration policy. And do you know what, Sir? According to what I heard from the Department of the Interior this afternoon, that man is not even a South African citizen. But the Minister does not care; it does not matter to him. Let me also say that that man is far more closely connected with the compiling of Current Affairs than is known by many people in South Africa. Does the Minister know this?

I know what is happening in the S.A.B.C. The Board of the S.A.B.C. is doing the same thing with this Minister as they did with his predecessor. They hope he will be a meek person who swallows everything they say. The hon. the Minister speaks of gossip.