House of Assembly: Vol24 - THURSDAY 6 JUNE 1968

THURSDAY, 6TH JUNE, 1968 Prayers—2.20 p.m. SECOND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS

Report presented.

FIRST READING OF BILLS

The following Bills were read a First Time:

Gold Mines Assistance Bill.

Group Areas Amendment Bill.

Pneumoconiosis Compensation Amendment Bill.

South African Medical Research Council Bill.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—CENTRAL GOVERNMENT

(Resumed)

Revenue Vote 45,—Bantu Administration and Development, R37,160,000, and Loan Vote N,—Bantu Administration and Development, R48,280,000 (continued):

*The. MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT:

Mr. Chairman, I am rising to reply to a few of the important points which have been raised thus far in the debate. I owe my two Deputies in particular who dealt with so many of the points so thoroughly that there is no need for me to say anything about them, and, to the further disappointment of hon. members on the opposite side, other hon. members on this side who also replied effectively to arguments put forward by the Opposition, a vote of thanks.

The hon. member for Transkei raised a few points here yesterday, to which I want to give attention. He began his speech by referring to a motion which had recently been passed by the Transkeian Legislative Council in which they requested help, as they expressed it, in being trained for independence as quickly as possible. The hon. member for Transkei referred to that, and I think it is perhaps fitting that something more be said in regard to the desire expressed in that motion. I think it is desirable not only for the ears of the Bantu peoples who are interested in such matters, it also seems to me desirable for some of us in this House to say something about that. For both these reasons I consequently want to say something about it, and I want to introduce what I have to say about it by stating that the process of becoming independent, the process of achieving nationhood, the process of developing a self-government system to its maximum, is not a transient process, that it is not a process which can be accomplished over hastily and over-night at as rapid a pace as possible. I should like to put the following question in this regard, and then reply to the question on the basis of a few qualities I want to enumerate. How is a nation or a country or a party or a parliament prepared for independence? This is the cardinal question at issue here. I think that we can accept at once that one cannot allow any country, nation or parliament to achieve its independence by affording it training to that end in a special school or offering a special attenuated course, or by publishing a correspondence course, or something of that nature. I will admit that there are, alas, countries, particularly in Africa, which became independent without even a correspondence course, but look at the trouble being experienced there subsequently. Let us accept that for a country or a nation to achieve its independence, it has to undergo a long and difficult process of growth towards nationhood, a long process of learning by doing, not by learning from hearsay but learning by doing.

I just want to mention a few qualities in this regard. I readily concede that many more qualities are necessary in this process of wanting to become independent than the few which I can mention in the short duration of the time at my disposal. Firstly, I am mentioning a very important quality which is required, i.e. that administrative experience in the administration and the management of departments themselves must be acquired. I am not going to elaborate on these matters. I am going to make statements which are so clear that I think hon. members can themselves elaborate further on them intelligently. I am going to mention a second extremely important quality which, in my opinion, a nation or a community which is desirous of achieving its independence must evince before it qualifies for such independence. This quality is that reliability must become deeply-rooted in the operations and the activities it undertakes, in other words, in the financial responsibility which the nation has to manifest as a state, and in the financial accurateness which has to be applied in its administration. What I have in mind now is such techniques as the drawing up of estimates, the expenditure of funds, the control of expenditure, and the custody of money. All these things go hand in hand with financial administration, with financial responsibility. All these things require, as I have said, a deep-seated reliability in those people.

I shall mention a third extremely important quality for all of us in this Parliament and for any other nation in the world, and that is integrity of conduct in public affairs. That integrity of conduct is not only necessary from juniors issuing receipts and opening files, or from the somewhat more senior officials who can at least write out cheques, or from cashiers who have to receive money across the counter. That integrity is necessary from the highest post to the lowest. It is necessary from the chief minister, from the Prime Minister, from the Head of State, from the King of the country down to the lowest official and to each person who wants to be entrusted with responsibility in that administration. One simply cannot make too great a demand on this integrity. It is necessary in the social affairs of the people, in the personal movements of the individual, in their social intercourse, as well as in the important managerial posts. Friends must not be given preference. What is required is that nepotism should not be practised where so many opportunities for it arise. That is what I mean by integrity. Everybody must acquire it. ¡Not only the Bantu nation in our country, but also those outside must be naturally aware of this.

Mr. W. V. RAW:

Perhaps another government should take some lessons in nepotism.

*The. MINISTER:

I want to tell the bon. vociferous member on the opposite side that people who want to serve in a government one day must also practise it. They will not be elected by a nation to govern them if they do not display these qualities. This brings me, more fittingly perhaps, to the next quality I want to mention, i.e. a democratic mode of action, the manifestation of a great sense of responsibility, both in the management of national affairs and in the way in which one offers to manage national affairs if one were to be placed in that position of trust. This is intended for the ears of that hon. member as well.

Another very important requirement is that the national administration and the independence one wants to maintain, should, in the public services, in the technical services, in the ordinary administration of the country, be undertaken as far as possible by citizens of one’s own State and one’s own country, much rather than to have this done on a large scale by people of another country or another State, because one does not have the people who are capable of doing this. This applies to everyone. I am not only talking of the Transkei now; I am talking about everyone in general.

Mr. W. V. RAW:

So that rules out the Nationalist Government.

*The. MINISTER:

No. The hon. member for Durban (Point) must at least concede that an electorate of approximately a million people are in a position to pass a judgment on this matter, and they have already done so on various occasions, and for the Opposition the cruellest judgment still lies ahead.

Another quality which is of great importance—just as the one which I have just mentioned, i.e. occupation of one’s administration by one’s own people—is that the economic development of one’s country and the creation of opportunities for employment for one’s people by one’s own government, is very essential. One must be capable of doing this. These are all tremendously important qualities. I want to mention a further quality, i.e. that the nation which has the responsibility or wants to accept the responsibliity of governing itself independently, must prove by its words as well as by its deeds that it is capable of peaceful coexistence not only with the citizens of its own State, and its own nation, but also of being able to coexist peacefully with other people, with other nations, particularly its neighbours, in this Southern African territory of ours there is a whole series of nations who, whether they like it or not, will have to live together and side by side for all time to come. This is one of the qualities which I rate very highly. There must be that peaceful disposition which will enable nations to live side by side and to tolerate and accept one another. It is necessary amongst our Bantu nations, amongst the Coloureds and the Indians, and particularly amongst our white people, considering the great responsibility which we have towards them all. It is particularly necessary that mutual reassurances be given on these points.

As I have said, it is a long and difficult process which has to be undergone. The few qualities which I have mentioned, are all experience which the people in the Transkei, for example, are acquiring, an experience which they are gaining by means of the political self-activity which they are in fact exercising there with the reasonable measure of national administration which has already been allocated to them. They have already made a great deal of progress. We must admit that. In the past four years during which they have had this new system of theirs, they have themselves made a great deal of progress. I am not going to go into detail by mentioning a host of examples. I am, however, going to mention one example. This is one of those things which I myself rate very highly, namely the acceptance of administrative responsibilities and the occupation of administrative posts by citizens of one’s own country. These figures have been furnished before. However, I want to mention them again. On 31st December, 1963, the establishment of the national administration of the Transkei consisted of 2,446 posts. On 31st December, 1963, 19 per cent of these were occupied by Whites who had been acquired from white South Africa.

During the past four years this position has changed considerably. The establishment has increased by 39 per cent, but the white occupation of that establishment has decreased. It has decreased in actual figures which, when expressed as a percentage, is 10.7. In other words, the Transkeian citizens have progressed in this sense that they have supplied more of their people to occupy the administrative posts in their own administration. It is true that this has taken place to a greater extent in the lower ranks than in the higher, but no tree grows from the top downwards. A national administration, like anything else, grows from the bottom upwards. This is also what will have to take place in that area, with those people. It must be borne in mind that one cannot simply make the first man or woman one comes across, even if he or she is matriculated or has a university degree, a head of a department or the deputy head of a department. A responsible position cannot be occupied by just anybody.

We must realize that at least 30 magistrates are required in the Transkei simply to keep those offices functioning on a minimal basis. We know that recently merely the first two were appointed there. We must realize that there are many other examples which can be mentioned, apart from this one example of magistrates. The same expertize and grounding is needed for numerous other posts in a national administration. For positions such as these people must be prepared by service training, because there is no attenuated course through which they can be rushed and then come out thinking they are perfect. Nor must it be thought that if one has a number of departments, or that if the number of departments has increased, one will necessarily acquire the status of independence as a result of that alone. Independence has nothing to do with the number of State departments one has; it has to do only with the fact that those departments which exist must be administered and managed in a correct, reliable and exemplary manner. That is what is involved. That which one does, one must do well in order to succeed.

Above all, I should like the people in the Transkei to know that the work they are doing there dare not be a total failure. The work they are doing in a single department, or in all their departments, must be of such a nature that they do not make serious blunders. All of us make blunders in our national administration, but they dare not make serious blunders which would evince a dearth of those qualities which I said were necessary a moment ago. It must be realized, particularly by them, because I want to address my words specifically to those people in the Transkei, that there are enough people who are jealous of their system, or who are hostile towards their system. Those people will be only too grateful for things which can be exposed as blatant irresponsibilities or serious blunders which do not justify their undergoing any further development. That is why they must see to it that there should be no setback which will retard them in their efforts to go forward. Those things are principally in their own hands.

I said a moment ago that there were many Bantu nations in South Africa, alongside the other nations in South Africa, i.e. the Whites, the Coloureds and the Indians, who all have to coexist. I want to repeat now what I have said on a former occasion, and I should like to address it to our Bantu nations. The future of all our non-white nations, and of our Whites, whether we are in a partially, or in a full stage of independence, is dependent upon a pattern of what I call “inter-dependence”, mutual dependence, of one nation upon another. Everybody, the Whites as well, is included in this. This pattern of inter-dependence upon one another is the only pattern which can ensure a peaceful coexistence in South Africa for this entire constellation of nations. We are mutually dependent upon one another in all kinds of ways. We as Whites admit that we are dependent upon the nonwhite nations in South Africa for their labour, and they are in turn dependent upon us for all kinds of labour, requiring more expertize. But that is not the only form of dependence upon one another.

*An HON. MEMBERS:

You are becoming soft now.

*The. MINISTER:

Oh no. I do not want to set myself up as a prophet, but I want to tell hon. members that they must realize, and we must all realize, that the constellation of nations in South Africa is going to develop in this direction that, as some nation or other achieves a high form or a general form of independence, it will still not mean that it will be able to do all its work itself as a nation. It is quite possible that a nation can be independent, but that its entire system of communications or transport for example will have to be supplied by the white nation of South Africa. That is not excluded. Within the geographical boundaries of South Africa there is even now an independent black state which I believe does not have a hundred yards of railway line, or any other mean of communication. That same state has representation in the U.N. as an independent state. As far as I know, it could not defend itself against a squadron of cadets.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

What does that prove?

*The. MINISTER:

It proves a great deal, if one would only listen. It proves what I have said, i.e. that the future, peace and prosperity of this entire constellation of numerous nations alongside one another in South Africa depends upon whether we accept and help one another mutually. This will have to develop to an increasing extent in South Africa, and it is the only way to ensure our independent survival. But we will achieve nothing if all those nations, according to the ¡Opposition’s policy, want to sit in this Parliament and govern one another. That will not work. I think I have said enough arising out of the discussion which has taken place on that motion. I think hon. members may as well go and reflect on it a little now.

The hon. member for Transkei, as if he did not know what our attitude was, once again broached the question of Port St. John’s, Matatiele, Elliot and its environs, because it had been said in the Transkei that those territories should be ceded to them.

*Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

“Asked”.

*The. MINISTER:

It has previously been stated, very authoritatively, from this side of the House—and I repeat: There is not the slightest intention of ceding those white territories of Matatiele, Maclear, Kokstad, Port St. John’s, etc., to the Transkeian territory. Must we repeat it now, a month later? Will we have to repeat it next year as well? This is being persistently said from our side of the House. [Interjections.]

*Mr. W. V. RAW:

They demanded it.

*The. MINISTER:

Listen to the frogs’ chorus on the opposite side of the House, Mr. Chairman. The hon. member for Durban (Point) is actually saying that they have demanded it. They have not demanded it. It was mentioned ¡there, and I have here the spoken statement of Matanzima himself that that motion and the passing thereof “must not be regarded as the starting point of a tug-of-war with the Government in Cape Town”. He stated that they would put their case to us again in a dignified way, and that they would hear what we had to say about it. He said that it was not a demand. He stated emphatically that, “It is not the starting point of a tug-of-war”. The hon. member for Durban (Point) and the hon. member for Hillbrow want a “tug-of-war”. This is, in fact, the objection I have to the hon. Opposition, and which I have stated so often already. Let us argue here about the contents of our policies, but let us not argue in such a way that one white party sides with the Bantu against another white party. That is what the hon. Opposition is doing. The way in which hon. members on the opposite side raised these matters here, meant that they, in some cases by implication, and in other cases directly, ranged themselves on the side of the people asking for these things.

*Mr. J. O. N. THOMPSON:

It is a result of your policy.

*The. MINISTER:

No. Hon. members must display their responsibility in a better way than behaving thus. The hon. member for

Transkei spoke derogatorily about border industry areas, or tried to. I want to ask the hon. member whether he honestly desires border industry areas around the Transkei, or is he grateful that there is little or nothing of that nature and whether he regrets the fact that here is little or nothing?

*Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

I know that they cannot be there. That is why I am asking for industrial areas in the Transkei.

*The. MINISTER:

It is a kind of reply, but it is not a direct reply. The hon. member has still not told me whether he desires it.

*Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

I know that it is impossible.

*The. MINISTER:

I do not want to play a game of verbal ping-pong with the hon. member, and I do not want to waste time. I want to remind the hon. member ¡that, strictly speaking, if he seriously desires border area industries there, and he thinks that there are too few, he cannot really discuss it under my Vote. I am not pleased about this, but the hon. member knows that all initiative and organization in regard to the establishment of border industries should fall under the Economic Votes. My Department is concerned with the consequential work, i.e. the provision of housing, et., for the people who have to work in those border industries. I want to tell the hon. member that even though there are no officially declared ¡border industry areas around the Transkei—and it is true that there are no officially declared border industry areas, in the same way as Hammarsdale is an officially declared border industry area—there are nevertheless quite a number of towns around the Transkei which find themselves in the same position as a declared border industry area would be.

*Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

Mention one to me.

*The. MINISTER:

I shall now mention quite a few. The hon. member must understand that one finds the officially declared border industry areas on the borders of the Bantu areas. This is where all those concessions and incentives apply in regard to any settlement disadvantages which may exist. One also finds ¡border industry towns, which I want to call the practical order industries, which are not officially declared places, but which can develop. These places sometimes do not need the incentive wages, and can be such areas in practice. In this way, for example, Durban is in practice nothing but a border industry area, without receiving the benefits. Durban does not need the benefits of a ¡border industry development area, because the homeland is situated close by. Around the Transkei there are quite a number of places—and the hon. member ought to know this—such as Elliot, Matatiele, Maclear, Kokstad, Harding and Port St.John’s, which lie adjacent to and within ten miles from the Transkei. Some of these places are within the constituency of the hon. member for Transkei. I now want to ask him whether he wants us to develop, declare and recognize Kokstad, Port St. John’s and Matatiele as border industry areas?

*Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

Yes, of course I want it. They are all inside the Transkei.

*The. MINISTER:

I am glad that there is support from the Opposition side for the concept of border industries. I do not want to reproach them in any way about that matter, and I am not going to stick out my tongue at them because of this. I am grateful for every respect in which ¡the Opposition wants to support us in implementing our policy. I am glad that the hon. member supports it, because in former years they did not support it. Let us be candid and admit that it is not always easy to declare as a border industry area each town which wants to be declared one. There are all kinds of problems involved. However, if that hon. member states that he welcomes it, it is a step forward for us and also for the other members of the Opposition. I hope that he will not run into any trouble with his colleagues as a result of this.

As far as the hon. member for Port Natal is concerned, I just want to furnish a reply to one point which he mentioned. I could not follow what he was saying very easily, but it seemed to me as if he was objecting to the fact that at Lime Hill there were cases where people had to pay 50 cents per journey for transport. I want to tell the hon. member that he must give me more details concerning this matter, and not merely raise a general point. It appears to me to be a highly impossible example of what can actually happen. Throughout the country, at these places where the Bantu have to journey from Bantu areas to white areas for work or other similar reasons, the tariff charged on buses is usually, and very seldom more than, 2 cents per mile. In other words, if that person is paying more than 50 cents for a single journey, it means a journey of 25 miles. As far as I know those distances are not as long as all that. If that hon. member for Port Natal, who scarcely knows where Lime Hill is, has a genuine interest in … [Interjections.]

*The. CHAIRMAN:

Order!

*The. MINISTER:

If I could give that young member some advice, he should sit and listen, and he should not sit there crying like a baby who has woken up at the wrong time. If the hon. member for Port Natal has a genuine interest in, and wants to see these cases rectified, I want to give him the good advice of bringing it to our attention Departmentally, with full details. He is more likely to achieve success by doing so than by trying to make political capital out of the matter here during a debate.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) also mentioned two wild examples. He spoke about a woman teacher from Umzimkulu who was unable to find work, as well as the case of a worker in a butchery who was also unable to find work. I cannot form a judgment about such generalities, with so few details. The hon. member also enquired what the position was in respect of Hammarsdale, and the reply I am going to give him will deal with the principles. The reply I want to give him is quite a long one. In principle the position at Hammarsdale, the Bantu residential area in the Bantu homeland, is in fact identical to the position at Umlazi. The same applies to any other Bantu township. People who work in a nearby white area ought to be living there, but the hon. member must realize that people will and are able to live there who themselves work much further away and who perhaps merely allow their dependents to live in that town, while they visit them once a week or once a month or on even rarer occasions, or even travel there over long distances. There are also people who will live in Hammarsdale but who will perhaps not work at all, i.e. retired people, aged people or people who are dependants in some other way. That, according to the principles, is the position in Hammarsdale.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

May I ask whether the inhabitants of that township will be limited only to Bantu registered in the Camperdown district, and secondly, will those inhabitants be limited only to Zulus, or will members of the other ethnic groups also be allowed to reside there?

*The. MINISTER:

From the nature of the case, those people who are workers in that district will be given preference in that township, but one cannot simply have only those people living in the town who are tied to that district. As regards the other ethnic groups: In all these Bantu townships, the policy we are implementing as strictly as possible is that those townships should not become cosmopolitan as far as the Bantu are concerned. In other words, it would be wrong to allow Shangaans, Vendas, South Sotho’s and such people to reside permanently in that township. But sometimes it is in fact necessary, during a temporary transition period, to allow such people to reside there, and the cases are subsequently sorted out. It cannot always be implemented 100 per cent correctly from the very first day.

The hon. member for Potchefstroom. also inquired about the Bantu Affairs building there; I know that building. I was there, and I know that it is a difficult case. I just want to give him the assurance that both my Department and Public Works are fully aware of the condition of those buildings, and we hope thatbefore long, even if it has to be done by means of a rearrangement of the position, it will be possible to effect an improvement there. I do not want to make any promises, and more than that I cannot say to-day.

The hon. member for South Coast raised certain matters to which the hon. the Deputy Minister replied very effectively. I merely wish to add something in regard to one point. He asked whether a farm labourer must always remain a farm labourer. The Deputy Minister for Bantu Development has replied to that, but I want to repeat it. A farm labourer does not always have to remain a farm labourer; but if he wants to do some other kind of work, he must obtain it through the right channels, through the bureau system, and not on his own accord by his own actions or by unilateral actions on the part of the employer by whom he wants to be employed. That is the position.

The hon. member for Durban (Point) raised a few miscellaneous points, and he tried to be amusing last night when he said here that one only has to say “abracadabra” and then Durban, or any other place, becomes a border industry. He continued in this vein until the hon. the Chairman subsequently had to tell the hon. member that he could not speak foreign languages here. It seems to me the hon. member should be careful that people do not accuse him of having originated as a politician as a result of the word “abracadabra”. He must be careful that people do not acccuse him of that. I am not going to accuse him of that.

Mr. W. V. RAW:

That is a word used by white witch doctors.

*The. MINISTER:

The hon. member referred to Durban and East London, which he stated had merely originated with a magic word like “abracadabra”. (Laughter.] The hon. members can laugh, but I am not speaking English now. I want to inform the hon. member that whether Umlazi is now being regarded as a border industry for the Bantu or not, places like Durban and East London and the Bantu areas there are historically adjacent areas. We did not cause a border industry to be established there.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

It must have happened by accident.

*The. MINISTER:

We did not even say: “Let us bring the Bantu area up to here, and then up to here it is a border industry area.” Umlazi was not made a Bantu town because we wanted a border industry there. Durban has not up to now been declared a border industry town. It is one in practice, as I hay said, which it can be without the allocated benefits. Umlazi was where it is to-day long befote the concept of border industries originated. We have simply expanded the township there, but the Bantu area has always been there. The same happened at East London, except that there were certain purchases of land, and at Umlazi there were also certain restricted land transactions, of which one went through Parliament this year. Thus I do not know what the hon. member is trying to imply by saying that with a wave of the wand the position there has been changed. No position has been changed with a wave of the wand. The circumstances there have been adjusted to the entire concept. That is all.

I then come to the hon. member for Walmer. He asked a question about Middelburg in the Cape. I just want to inform him that the position in regard to the Middelburg Bantu residential area, as far as I know, is that new planning for that town was approved quite recently. We realize that, particularly in the rural areas, many of these smaller towns have difficulties with their Bantu residential areas. The housing schemes in Bantu residential areas depend upon the economic structure prevailing in the local towns. The Bantu must pay rental for the houses they occupy, and they must pay transportation costs, if it is necessary to travel back and forth. The rent instalments on the houses they occupy cannot be disproportionate to their own wage structures. It depends a great deal upon the economy of the local town. This is one of the problems which makes it difficult for the smaller towns such as Middelburg and others to have a Bantu residential area of the same standard as a place such as East London, for example, or at a place such as Kroonstad or Pretoria or Cape Town, where there is a very high economic structure in that town or city. But the townships are being laid out, and there are three methods according to which this can take place. There is the method of selfconstruction, and that is often the solution for these smaller towns, i.e., that the municipality support them with certain basic requirements and that the Bantu themselves build the houses on those premises. Good houses can be built in this way. There are many examples of that. Oudtshoorn is an example of this method, and there are more such examples. The second method is that those townships come into being with loans which are obtained from the State, and then the houses are leased to the Bantu. These can be sub-economic loan schemes, or economic loan schemes. But circumstances have changed to such an extent in the past 20 years, since we came into power, that where in 1948 it was the case that almost 100 per cent of the loans allocated were sub-economiic, the position has now been reversed and it is almost 100 per cent on an economic basis. This is attributable to many reasons» inter alia, to the major and important improvements which have been introduced under our guidance as Government to establish economic, good and cheaper houses in the Bantu residential areas. With these words I do not want to intimate that Middelburg is going to have a sub-economic housing scheme, becausewe are trying our level best to avoid sub-economic housing schemes, because they cannot always be justified. But these are the schemes which apply, and the Department assures me that new planning was recently approved for Middelburg and that this can apply in a similar way to other towns, where it is justified.

What the hon. member for Etosha actually did was to advocate that it was quite essential to build up a good infrastructure in the ¡Bantu areas of South West Africa. I think the hon. member, who is well acquainted with those areas, will concede that a great deal has already been done in that direction during the past few years. I just want to give hon. members the assurance that we are earnestly aware of those matters. But Rome was not built in a day and, so help me, not Ovamboland either, or any other Bantu area, nor any other white city or town. In the present year only large amounts have been appropriated, departmentally and in terms of the trust and also by the South West Africa Administration, which under the old arrangement still has to look after many aspects there, to establish facilities such as buildings, roads, bridges, dipping troughs, irrigation works, water provision, the necessary machinery, forest utilization, soil conservation and reclamation, fencing and Bantu townships. I have just enumerated the kind of physical things which can be classified under the term “infrastructure”. Then there are still a great many other things such as agricultural activities, schools and education, which have been tackled. But I can assure the hon. member that we are all thoroughly aware of the need for these things.

The hon. member for Pinelands also deserves some comment on my part, firstly in regard to my Potchefstroom speech. I am of course deeply grateful that the hon. member underwent the sound edification of reading that speech of mine, but I do want to say to that hon. member that I know him to be a courteous man and he should at least understand my words in their context and quote them in context. The hon. member quoted a portion of my speech here. I am not going to qualify or withdraw one syllable of that speech. I am quoting what I said, and I am now reading from the original, not from a newspaper report—

In the first instance, therefore, the heart and soul of the policy does not lie in the spectacular removal of people to their various homelands, but in the process of emancipation of the Bantu nations and their traditional spiritual and political anchoring in their homelands in this emancipatory process.

I elaborated at length on the emancipatory process, and in regard to this process I also said the following, inter alia—

The consummation of the policy implies that each one of these nations is being assisted in this process of emancipation. Wherever the various ethnic members find themselves at the moment, whether within or outside their respective homelands, is not of decisive importance …

Listen how—

… although it is desirable that they should, to a maximum extent find themselves in their homelands.

I stated very emphatically in that same speech that it was not possible to accomplish in one go a spectacular removal of those people to their homelands, but that it remained the endeavour and policy to let them return, to a maximum extent, to their own homelands. Now I am asking the hon. member what is wrong with that. All that is wrong, is his omission of the second part; that is all.

*Mr. J. O. N. THOMPSON:

That is not the point I made.

*The. MINISTER:

The first part I read out was the point the hon. member made, and many other people also tried to make the point that I had supposedly said that it was not at all essential that the people should return to their homelands any longer. There is no such thing, Sir. The policy remains as I stated it in my speech.

The hon. member for Pinelands must also be reprimanded in regard to what he said here about the three courses which he ascribed to Professor Van den Haag, a very eminent person who gave outstanding evidence for us in the World Court case. The hon. member, if I am correot, quoted from a newspaper report. I was placed on an almost equally improper pedestal as the one he was placed on. He quoted this from the newspaper report, which is certainly not correct. I could not lay my hands on the original evidence this morning, but at least I did get hold of a better source than a newspaper report, and I went into it a lititle. It may be as he put it that Professor Van den Haag stated that there are three alternatives for such countries, or such areas, which have multi-racial populations. It is true that he states that there are three courses. There is the course of separate development, or the course of integration, or the course of haying various groups altogether in one joint authority. The third is nothing else but a combination of the first two, and it remains my standpoint that there are two practical courses. There are some people who think perhaps that there is a third experimental course, namely of combining the two. I know that the Opposition maintains this; it is stated in their yellow brochure, that it is their policy to apply the “good aspects of separate development” under their federation policy.

*Mr. S. J. M. STEYN:

You are also trying to do so.

*The. MINISTER:

No. Things have now gone so far that the hon. Senators in the Other Place are already telling me that distinctive development is their policy as well. Let me just inform the hon. member for Pinelands that I persist in believing that basically there are only two courses, namely the course of political separate development, or the course of political integration. That is as far as the government of these various human groups which live together geographically are concerned. The hon. member should read the rest of what Professor Van den Haag had to say, and then he would see that he was being very unfair if he wanted to pretend or if he wanted other people to deduce that Professor Van den Haag advocated the third method. Professor Van den Haag did not advocate that third method in this evidence.

*Mr. J. O. N. THOMPSON:

In certain circumstances he did.

*The. MINISTER:

He did not advocate it. The hon. member must accept that Professor Van den Haag stated very clearly that where such multi-racial population compositions existed, each case had to be reviewed, approached and considered on its own merits. He stated very clearly that where there were major group differences between the various groups, he would not advocate the application of such a process of equalization by throwing them all together under one authority, and that what should rather take place there was that the people should be kept separated to a greater extent, by keeping them more isolated from one another. The hon. member mentioned the evidence of Professor Van den Haag here as if it were proof that the race federation policy of throwing everybody into one political conglomeration, was his standpoint.

*Mr. J. O. N. THOMPSON:

I did not say that. I said various groups, but one government.

*The. MINISTER:

If the hon. member wants to enumerate methods, then he might even be able to enumerate ten methods, but any methods other than these two I mentioned are mere combinations of the two basic methods, namely integration or apartheid. These are the only two methods.

*Mr. W. V. RAW:

Is there nothing between verkramp and veriig?

*Mr. S. J. M. STEYN:

In other words, there cannot be a policy for the Coloureds.

*The. MINISTER:

Mr. Chairman, I do not think that any more points were raised here which I need reply to now. Some of the minor points are of an administrative nature, and I can reply to them later.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Sir, may I ask for the privilege of the other half hour? I know that the hon. the Minister will not expect me to comment at all on his speech because he was largely answering speeches made last night by other hon. members on this side of the House. I want to say this to him, having listened to him at length this afternoon, that I am quite prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt that he sincerely believes in the concept of separate development; that he really believes that this ethical concept is something which can ultimately be realized. How he manages to persuade himself of this in the teeth of all the evidence to the contrary is beyond me, but I will at least say that he probably does believe that it can be done. I cannot say the same for other members of this House. I believe that a lot of people pay lip service to this ideal of separate development but the vast majority of the supporters of the Government and many of the members of this House, in spite of everything that they say about the ethical concept, in fact simply want the maintenance of the status quo. And that is, to put it quite bluntly, the maintenance of vast reservoirs of cheap black labour for the benefit of white employers in this country and the maintenance of white domination. That is all they want.

Sir, I want to come back to some of the speeches that were made last night, particularly by the two Deputy Ministers of Bantu Administration and by the hon. member for Heilbron. Last night we heard the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education thundering away about all the misstatements that have been made on this side of the House about endorsements-out. He said, inter alia, that only tsotsis were endorsed out of the urban areas … [Interjections.] I have not finished yet; I am going to quote all his absolutely peerless words. He said that only tsotsis were endorsed out of the urban areas and that every one of those had appeared in the courts of law. Secondly he said that only people who were unlawfully in the urban areas were endorsed out. I want to deal with both these remarks. The first one is, of course, just not true. [Interjections.] Sir, everybody heard him say that. He said that only tsotsis were endorsed out of the urban areas …

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU DEVELOPMENT:

He dealt with the statement that had been made here that they were taken out handcuffed.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Sir, I did not mention handcuffs. The hon. member must not distract me with nonsense. The point is that that statement is untrue. In every single (Bantu Administration office throughout the country there are officials who spend all their days on the unproductive exercise of stamping reference books “endorsed out of the urban areas; not permitted to be in urban areas”. This applies to people who have never been near a court of law. Now let us come to the secondconcept and that is that only people who are unlawfully in an urban area are ever sent out. I want to know whether the hon. the Deputy Minister has any idea how almost impossible it is to-day for an urban African to prove that he is lawfully in an urban area; how the Government have circumvented section 10 to such an extent that it is virtually impossible for any law-abiding African to prove that he has the right to be in an urban area under section 10.

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION:

It is nonsense.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

It is not nonsense and J will tell the Minister why. Let me give him some examples. First of all to prove that he or she is eligible under section 10 (1) (a), that is the section that refers to the African being born in the urban area, the African has to produce a birth certificate. We all know births are not compulsory in this country. They certainly were not several years ago.

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION:

Quite, births are not compulsory …

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

I mean the registration of African births. As I said, the registration of births is not compulsory for Africans, and therefore the production of a birth certificate in itself is practically an impossibility in the case of the vast majority of Africans, especially those who were born some years ago. Nobody knew about »this law of having to produce some proof that they were born in the area and therefore they were not registered by compulsion as white people or Coloured people are. Therefore that in itself is impossible. The officials demand proof and this proof is very difficult indeed to produce. What is more, even if he produces a birth certificate, the African still has to prove that he lived continuously in the area because if he has had a break in service, if he has even been sent out by his own firm with whom he had been continuously employed to another municipal area, that can be counted as a break in his continuous residence in the urban area. That is another so-called unlawful “concept” according to these Ministers. [Interjections.] I wonder if the Deputy Ministers will let me develop my argument. They can reply again, they have lots of ten minute periods at their disposal, and they have about 120 members who can reply. In the Cape in particular where this policy is being very stringently applied indeed the divisional and Cape Town municipal areas were only split in 1960. So this technicality is applied over and over again to Cape Town Africans who have been here since birth. If they happened to work in the divisional area but were born in the municipal area, and as I said, the separation for the purposes of Bantu administration only took place in 1960, they have had it. They are no longer lawfully in the area. But they are not tsotsis, they are not people who do not want to work, as the other Deputy Minister said. They are people in employment or people who want to continue in employment perhaps with another firm. They have the greatest difficulty in obtaining permission.

Let us come to the other group of people who are entitled “lawfully” to be in the urban area. I am referring to the section I (b) and (c) Africans. Paragraph (b) as we all know lays down that the man must have been in the urban area continuously for 15 years or employed by one employer for ten years. I want to point out to the Minister and the Deputy Ministers that this Act only came into existence in 1952 but the official provision for registration of Africans came later. The machinery came in 1956 in some cases. Compulsory registration only came in 1959 in some centres and in Johannesburg even later. How do Africans ever produce the proof? Although the law was introduced in 1952, which is just over 16 years ago, the actual provision for the official registration was only introduced two or three years later, that is to say, the actual offices and everything else that went with it, and it was not made compulsory until several years later. So again Africans who in fact have been in the urban areas for 15 years continuously and in fact have been with one employer for ten years are unable to produce the proof and they are endorsed out, or certainly they run a risk of being endorsed out. As for the wretched women who really have a terrible time, particularly in the Cape, section 10 (1) (c) of the Act applies more particularly to them. They are the dependants of wives of the persons who qualify under either section 10 (1) (a) or (b). Just as difficulties of proving legitimate urban residence under paragraphs (a) and (b) have increased all the time, so equally have the difficulties of proving dependence on a man lawfully in the area. Not only that. The whole question of registration for women came much later and they too have the greatest difficulty in proving that they are lawfully in the area, that they entered lawfully originally, and that they were ordinarily resident with their husbands, which is of course another difficulty which has been added by this Government. So in every possible way things are made almost impossible for an African to be lawfully within the urban area and if officials use their powers to the full they can in fact endorse out practically every one of the urban Africans, if they did not require their labour. This is the point.

As for the women, there is an absolutely callous disregard for the position of African women. The hon. the Minister can shake his head. I know from personal experience. Let met tell the Minister what happens. These hon. members sit here passing laws but they never have the slightest contact with the individuals who suffer as a result of those laws.

They have no contact whatever with the individuals. They are not confronted with those dejected creatures who find their whole lives cut away from under them by virtue of the laws that these men pass. The officials who are duty bound to administer these wretched laws, this gaggle, this welter of laws, those unfortunate individuals do not have to take the responsibility of having passed the laws. [Interjections.] You can say what you like after I have sat down.

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION:

You are the one hon. member who has never brought a single case to my attention. You are not interested in them; you are only interested in the political capital you can make.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

I have hundreds and hundreds of cases but I know that it is useless. I am not looking for exceptions to the rule. What is the good of that? What is the good of bringing to the Minister’s attention a few individual hard-luck cases when I know that thousands of cases are suffering in the same way? That is why I have no patience really with the special pleading of the hon. member for Transkei on behalf of the predikant. I do not care about the individual cases. I know there are hundreds of cases like that. Why should the Deputy Minister be allowed to get away with it by saying he gave that man permission to have his wife in the area, when I know there are hundreds of cases where permission is refused? What if the man does not happen to be a predikant and a member of Parliament has not taken up his case. What is the good of that? I am not looking for exceptions to the rule; I am trying to have the rules altered so as to make people’s lives en masse bearable in this country as far as the Africans are concerned.

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION:

You are making political propaganda, that is all.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Rubbish. That is always the Deputy Ministers answer. He never answers factually. He replies by means of personal abuse and talking a lot of nonsense. The bon. member asks about these cases. Lett me tell him what happens to these women. If a woman is divorced, or if she is deserted, as happens over and over again in the urban areas, if her husband dies, and we know that happens to many woman sooner or later, then she loses her right to remain the head of the household and she loses her right to retain the house. She can get special permission if the Chief Bantu Affairs Commissioner of a particular area gives his permission, but the right to have the house goes. The woman is the only breadwinner at this stage and; these women always have small children dependent on them. What are they told? They are told to find lodgings. A woman with five small children has to go and find lodgings. She has to give up the house which she and her husband had lived in for years because the husband has died, deserted or divorced her, and she has to go and find lodgings with small children, which is an impossibility in view of the shortage of accommodation. The older children are made to go and live in hostels. They have to pay for staying there, and immediately it is impossible for them to assist the woman to maintain the home and her household. They cannot help to bring in some extra income for the benefit of the povertystricken family. What has the Deputy Minister got to say about that? Am I looking for propaganda?

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU DEVELOPMENT:

Of course you are.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Or is this a rotten regulation? That is what it is. It is a disgrace to a so-called civilized country. It is absolutely shocking. As for hostel accommodation, let me tell the Minister in Johannesburg alone there are 14,000 people on waiting lists for hostel accommodation. These women are told to go and find hostel accommodation. A section I (c) woman does not appear to have any rights at all. The others can get it with special permission. A woman who is simply the dependant of a deceased man, and who is not there in her own right, just does not have a chance at all. She cannot have her name put on a waiting list even for housing accommodation in Johannesburg.

It is high time the Government did something about this disgraceful situation, instead of saying, as the hon. member for Heilbron did, “Let us get rid of all these surplus women and children; let them go to the rural areas, who cares about them?” These women are very often the breadwinners of the family. Why can they not go and do nothing there? he asked. Does he think that that sort of speech coming from a senior Government member does not do more harm to South Africa overseas than my protesting against this sort of thing? What does he think does more harm: His statement about the women and children or my protestations about the laws? Which does he think does more harm to this country? It is disgraceful. What we need badly is an inquiry into the position of African women who are trapped on the one hand by the terrible laws in the urban areas and on the other hand also by the conflict between the tribal laws, for which I do not blame this Government for once, and all the effects of urbanization. Some years ago the hon. the Minister’s predecessor appointed an interdepartmental committee to go into the whole question of the position of urban Africans. Then it was abandoned because nobody really cares about it anyway. I say it is time that that committee is re-appointed. It is time that it was turned into a commission of inquiry and that the commission’s terms of referencewere widened to include a full-scale inquiry into the position of the urban Africans and, as the Johannesburg non-European Affairs Department suggested, their role in the fields of education, transport, housing and employment in the urban areas. It is no good the hon. the Minister just sitting there and saying that we know what their role is. Let us see what the results are on the human beings concerned. We know what their role is because they are of course allowed into the urban areas as long as their labour is needed and not otherwise. But even when they want to work—and this is where I take issue with the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Development—their position is not as simple as that. He said yesterday that only those who do not want to work are told to leave. That is not true. If he says that, he does not know what is going on in his own department. People come in in order to look for work and then they are not allowed to look for work. If they find work they are sent back and then they have to start the whole process all over again.

This brings me to the question of farm labour. The hon. the Minister said very blithely that everything in this regard is very easy for the Africans. He said that they just leave the farms and then go to the labour bureaux. Then they can become anything they like. That is what the hon. the Deputy Minister also said. He said that they must go back to their tribal areas, register as migrant workers and then they can come in in another capacity again. What does he think happens to those men’s families in the meantime? What happens about those men who had been on farms for generations with their families, as all of us know happens? Where are they to leave their families? There is no land for them in the reserves. Will the Bantu Commissioner sign such a Bantu off if the farmer still wants him—no, of course not. It is not true to say that there is slave labour in South Africa. I do not say that.

Mr. G. F. VAN L. FRONEMAN:

Now you are talking nonsense.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

No, I am not talking nonsense. Can the hon. member tell me in what respects it is nonsense. I shall, however, return to this hon. member in a moment. It is not true to say that there is slave labour in South Africa. I do not exaggerate the position, because it is not necessary to do it. Things are bad enough in this department as it is without having to exaggerate. I will, however, say this about farm labourers. They are as tied to the landowners as were the serfs of mediaeval England. That much I will say. They are tied to the landowner because they cannot leave unless the farmer signs them off. They cannot leave unless the Bantu Commissioner gives the right to do so. [Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, I read fairy stories for bedtime reading. I must have something to brighten my day after I leave the House. I read fairy stories and I find them in Bantu.

The May issue of Bantu has a lovely fairytale in it. It is headed “Thirteen years of Prosperity” and it brought tears to my eyes. It reads as follows:

About 13 years ago when Eliazer Nenugwi was 32 years old, he had not yet made any attempt to earn his own living. He lived in Vendaland and relied on his friends and family to provide for his daily needs. During the rainy season he ploughed his brother’s piece of land, but this did not supply him with an income. One fine day Eliazer suddenly realized that one could make no progress if one did not work in order to receive an income. He then travelled to Johannesburg.

He simply travelled to Johannesburg without having to get the permission of a Bantu Commissioner and no permission from Influx Control on the other—

He then travelled to Johannesburg and started working in a brickyard there.

[Interjections.] Hon. members must not become impatient, because there is a happy ending to this fairy story—

Soon after he decided to go and work in a brickyard in Pretoria.

Again there are no influx control problems’ for lucky old Eliazer. He decided where he would work, as if an African coming from Vendaland can up-stakes, come to Johannesburg, decide he is not very keen on his employer there and then transfer himself to Pretoria.

Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

What about his cat?

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

I do not know, because it does not give us the details, but it does go on to tell us—

After having been in the city for three months, Eliazer realized that there was no great future for an ordinary labourer in the city.

Unfortunately I do not have time to go into’ any more details of this story. It does, however, tell us how he went back to Vendaland where he was given a piece of land. He got his irrigation plot of 11 morgen and it was a great joy to him. By this time he had practically got a country estate.

An HON. MEMBERS:

Has he got a Cadillac?

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

No, he does not have a Cadillac yet but he has got a very nice tractor. What is more, he has got his own farm labourers working for him. That is a lovely story and I wish it were true. So much, therefore, for all these fairy stories about farm labourers.

I come now to another question, namely the unlawful presence of Africans in certain urban areas. I have been trying to get a lot of statistics from the hon. the Minister and the hon. the Deputy Ministers. I must say that the hon. the Deputy Minister for Bantu Administration and Education showed an unusual reticence in this regard. I cannot get any figures from him any more.

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION:

You have not asked me for any.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

I have all the evidence here. Would the hon. the Deputy Minister like to see how many times he has told me that the statistics are not available or that owing to the large volume of work, the statistics are not kept, and so on? These hon. Ministers are all very cagey. The interesting thing is that I could get precisely those statistics last year. When other hon. members do not pinch my questions I usually put the same questions over and over again from year to year. [Interjections.] As a matter of fact the hon. member for Transkei has pinched a few of my questions. I do not mind. If this all adds to our stock of information, I am all for it. I am delighted to have got everybody going in that way.

The. MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT:

They are all stock questions.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Yes, stock questions if you like. But it does seem to me that we have run out of stock, because I cannot get any answers any more. I will tell the hon. the Minister why I cannot get replies to my questions. I do not believe that they are not really available. It might be that they have not been assembled in the desired form. They are available but they are too damaging. The hon. the Minister does not want to give this House and the country this information. That is the reason why. These replies are too damaging and embarrassing. The hon. the Minister does not tell us of the endorsements out or the number of contract labourers. One could get answers to all these questions before. He could not even tell me how many people were illegally in the urban areas. He cannot tell me the numbers who qualify under section 10. He has abolished 30-year home ownership, but he cannot even tell me how many people were involved. He seems to know nothing at all about this. He is shy, coy and reticent—or should I say just common cagey. He does not want to give the answers to these questions because he knows how embarrassing they are. The same applies to all these pass offences and the large number of people arrested. One has to sift through the newspapers and watch for speeches made by people such as Justice Steyn.

One has also to take note of speeches made at the Institute of non-European Administrators to collect a few figures. These figures reveal an absolutely shocking state of affairs. The number of arrests for petty offences under these pass laws is approximately half a million in one year. Most of these people serve very short prison sentences. This does not fall specifically under this department but these are all arrestees under the welter of laws produced by this gaggle of Ministers. All this means in the end that thousands of Africans go to gaol every year for these petty offences. There is the great loss of man-hours it entails as well as the terrible effect it has on people on their being sent to gaol.

It is a ludicrous situation where we deliberately impound people who should be working as productive members of our society. I could give statistics in this regard, but I do not think I will have the time. As I have said the whole picture of Bantu administration is utterly depressing. [Interjections.] The hon. the Deputy Minister can mutter in his beard. I want him to stand up and answer what I am saying without telling me that I am “beswaddering” South Africa. There we have the “beswadderaars”. They are the people who pass the laws and not the people who object to the laws. The whole picture of Bantu administration is utterly depressing. It is the picture of an all-powerful, ruthless Government pushing people around without even realizing the conditions in areas to which they are pushing them. Look at these terrible resettlement areas, the Sadas and Hinges or whatever they are called, all 24 of them, where at least 50,000 to 70,000 people are living under the most abject conditions. They have no employment opportunities and live in places of utter dejection and despair, with women, children, the aged and the disabled sitting their while their men are working as migratory labourers. I remember that some time in the distant past the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education pronounced that he hated migrant labour. Does he remember doing that ever? He said that he hated the system of migrant labour.

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION:

I? You are talking nonsense. I do not even hate you.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

I can only tell hon. members that I remember him saying that he did not like that system and that he hated it.

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION:

You are just boring me now.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

I might be boring you. I might be frightening you, because I might fish out the quotation one of these days. In those days he was relying, and other hon. members too, on the border areas or the Bantustans themselves to support the people whowere to be drawn back. Of course the hon. the Deputy Minister has staked his whole political future on getting everybody back at a certain date. Why he should have done this to himself, heaven knows, but he has. Now he has to approve of migrant labour, because he knows this is going to be the only way he can do it. It is not that the physical presence of Africans is going to be lessened; it is just that their status is going to be changed. They are going to be there de facto, but they are not going to have any right to be there.

Of course, the Deputy Minister used to be a Hofmeyr man, so one never knows when he is going to change his mind. He will not deny standing on a platform in Parktown and saying that he was a Hofmeyr man because I was there. [Interjections.] Let me just get on.

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION:

At that time I spoke as much nonsense as you do now.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

He thinks that, if he just banishes people to these places, they disappear altogether. They do not. They do not vanish into thin air. They are still ar-ound. The population of South Africa still includes 11 million Africans.

The hon. member for Heilbron talked yesterday about this new labour system which I mentioned during the Budget Debate—I do not want to go into details again—with the regulations concerning migratory labour, etc. By the way, before I forget, has the hon. the Deputy Minister arranged that the man concerned sees the contract? Has he at least done that, as I asked him to? He professed to be shocked at this at one stage. Has he seen to it that the regulations are changed, so that the worker himself gets a copy of his work contract? Will he undertake to do at least that in all fairness, and not spitefully sit and sulk the way he is now doing?

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION:

Nkrumah can do much better than that.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Nkrumah is out. Forget about Nkrumah. The Minister must get a more up to date public enemy number one.

The hon. member for Heilbron had a lot to say about this sytem of putting everybody on the same basis as Malawians. They come in under contract and they go back. But he is not dealing with foreign Africans. Can I just rouse him from his little dream? He is dealing with South African citizens, and not Malawians, Botswanas or Lesotho. He has no right to put those people on the same basis as foreign Africans. Just let me point that out to him.

The whole matter really is just too depressing for words. All I can say is that I am glad that I am not going to be around in 50 years’ time to see the results of this system. If there is one thing that throws me completely, it is the arrogance of this Government in believing that it can go on in this way, turning the screws every tighter, treating people like aliens in the land of their birth, denying them even the most elementary human rights, such as the right to live with their families in the urban areas, or where they are spending most of their working life, and then imagining that there is never going to be a come-back. Well, I have news for the hon. the Minister. History has proved otherwise. They will not be able to go on like this. They should realize that they are endangering the security of South Africa in their arrogance, in believing that they can go on without let nor hindrance in this utterly irresponsible and heartless fashion. [Time expired.]

*Dr. P. G. J. KOORNHOF:

Mr. Chairman, they say that a woman’s vocabulary consists of approximately 500 words, but that the turnover is tremendous. We had a very striking example of that this afternoon. If I should come home one evening and my wife should rant and rave the way the hon. member for Houghton did this afternoon, there would be only one of two things that one could do to her. And I am a very mild-natured man. The one would be to give her a jolly good hiding, and the other would be simply to ignore her. That is really what one should do to her this afternoon, because it was an example, coming from a lady, of a really uncivilized speech that we heard here this afternoon.

*The. CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member is not allowed to say that the hon. member for Houghton made an uncivilized speech. I cannot allow that.

*Dr. P. G. J. KOORNHOF:

Then it was a shameless speech, Mr. Chairman, and it did come rather close to being a primitive speech. The hon. member pretends, with a great flurry of words, to care so much for the Bantu and the Coloureds in South Africa, but I want to suggest that, if one went into the matter to some extent, one would find that she does not have such a wonderful record of really caring for these people. She can get up in this House and make an extremely irresponsible speech and just talk and talk, but if one inquires into the deeds, one finds that the hon. member for Houghton cannot even mention any examples to the hon. the Deputy Minister, who repeatedly asks her to mention examples. I think that by this time we have had enough of this from the hon, member for Houghton. The speech she made here this afternoon with a great flurry of words was made with one purpose only, and that is to stir up unrest in the Republic of South Africa. That is the point. It is irresponsible. I want to go further, and if it is unparliamentary, Mr. Chairman, I am sorry, but we have to deal with a certain degree of lawlessness (verwildering) which is manifesting itself in many ways in the West.

I want to suggest that the hon. member for Houghton was a typical example in the Parliament of the Republic of South Africa this afternoon of the cause of this lawlessness which is taking root in the West. For that she has to be chastized.

And, typical of the hon. member for Houghton, she made another equally flagrant error. Her speech was probably the most illogical one that we have heard in this House this Session. Just to give you an example, Sir: She began by telling the National Party and the Government in a terribly dramatic and theatrical way that they “are only paying lip service, but they do not mean it” as far as the implementation of the policy of each developing along his own lines is concerned. Then she went on to make the extremely irresponsible statement that we “keep the Bantu only as a reservoir of cheap labour”. She made these sweeping statements without realizing what their implications are. In her typically illogical way she then went on to negate the very statement she had made, because she then mentioned numerous examples of how this same Government was doing everything in its power to move the Bantu from the urban areas, in other words, not to use them as a “reservoir of cheap labour”, but to remove them. That is quite illogical. Her entire speech was therefore devoid of any logical basis, facts or examples. I really want to express the hope that this afternoon we heard the last of this type of speech from the hon. member for Houghton in this House. I now want to address a challenge to her: If she cannot mention examples to the hon. the Deputy Minister to support and substantiate these allegations which she makes left, right and centre, she must expect that in future we shall take no notice of her in this House at all.

Finally I want to tell her—and I know this will hurt a little—that I think she deserves a good hiding. What she did this afternoon, is a sign of typical feminine age. In making so irresponsible and, may I say now, so shameless a speech in a responsible House, she is not worthy of her sex. She makes us rather impatient. But if I were to ask her a simple question, namely whether she believes in white supremacy in the Republic …

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

No.

*Dr. P. G. J. KOORNHOF:

She has already given her reply. I want to leave her at that, and I want to ask the Opposition, those who joined her in her laughter, and those who always support that hon. member, and who are sitting over there as an integration party, whether they believe in white supremacy in the Republic.

*Mr. J. O. N. THOMPSON:

White leadership.

*Dr. P. G. J. KOORNHOF:

Why does the hon. member now draw the distinction between supremacy and leadership? I am asking him a simple question. The hon. member for Houghton, who is a woman, at least had the courage of her convictions in saying that she did not believe in white supremacy, with a resonant “No”. I again ask those hon. members whether they believe in supremacy in South Africa, and I am not referring to leadership now.

*Dr. G. F. JACOBS:

What did Mr. Strydom say ten years ago?

*Dr. P. G. J. KOORNHOF:

I just want to obtain some clarity on a very important point. I am asking this for the third time now. We know that they stand for white leadership “for the foreseeable future”, but I want to repeat my question. There are a large number of members sitting over there, such as the hon. member for Durban (Point), a very talkative member, and the hon. member for Transkei and all the other hon. members. I am putting a perfectly simple question to these members, whom I accused the other day of being the “bandwagon” party that just wants to climb onto the National Party’s bandwagon. I am putting the same question to them as I put to the hon. member for Houghton. I am asking them whether they stand for white supremacy.

*HON MEMBERS:

No. (Interjections.]

*Dr. P. G. J. KOORNHOF:

I have tried three or four times now. They all speak at the same time. No one says “yes” or “no”.

*Mr. W. V. RAW:

Stop distorting our policy.

*The. DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN:

What did the hon. member say?

*Mr. W. V. RAW:

I said: “Stop distorting our policy.”

*An HON. MEMBERS:

Do you have a policy to distort?

*Dr. P. G. J. KOORNHOF:

I want the entire country to see that they cannot reply to my question. [Interjections.] I repeat my question: Do you believe in white supremacy, yes or no?

*HON MEMBERS:

No.

*Dr. P. G. J. KOORNHOF:

Now we have made some progress. Why do they say “no”? I shall tell you why, Sir. It is because the United Party, as a result of the fact that it does not accept the principle of multi-nationality, is still trying to lead the electorate of South Africa up the garden path, to mislead the voters in that they say they stand for white leadership “for the foreseeable future”. They dare not say supremacy, because theyactually stand for economic and political integration, and those are two things which cannot be reconciled with each other. Supremacy and integration are like oil and water; they do not mix, and they will never mix. While I am not at all appreciative of what the hon. member for Houghton said here this afternoon, she at least has a standpoint, but the United Party has no standpoint, as their own Sunday newspapers told them last Sunday. They now want to ride on the National Party’s wagon, but we shall push them off head over heals into the dust. We have the courage of our convictions and we say that we stand for white supremacy in the white areas and that we shall do so for all time to come and that we shall maintain and defend it by force. [Time expired.]

*Mr. P. Z. J. VAN VUUREN:

I too want to refer to the hon. member for Houghton and I want to tell her that in my opinion her entire speech was larded with a lot of distortions.

*The. DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN:

What did the hon. member say?

*Mr. P. Z. J. VAN VUUREN:

I said her speech was larded with distortions.

*The. DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN:

The hon. member may proceed.

*Mr. P. Z. J. VAN VUUREN:

We have knowledge of the application of this legislation and I am convinced that we in this House to-day can have only the greatest respect for the officials who are charged with implementing this legislation. I want to issue a challenge to the hon. member for Houghton. We as a House accept the responsibility for this legislation and I think that it is the duty of this hon. member to advance concrete examples.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

This is the law I told you about.

*Mr. P. Z. J. VAN VUUREN:

There is no point in talking about the law. The hon. member made a direct accusation about the application of this law and she said: “It is virtually impossible for any Bantu to prove that he is lawfully in any urban area.” But surely this is not so. Does the hon. member have concrete examples of any Bantu who has proved that he was lawfully in any urban area at the time when he was endorsed out of that area? [Interjections.] I simply do not accept it. I say we have always been fully confident that the officials are fair to the Bantu population in this country in the application of this legislation.

But I want to devote my time to what was said by the hon. member for Pinelands. I think the hon. member tried to get away with a few things last night to which we must react. The hon. member referred to the conditions which prevailed prior to 1948. He said that when the National Party came into power in 1948, the prestige of South Africa had never been higher abroad. He said money and immigrants were pouring into this country in 1948. He said conditions were so good that it was as easy as changing a glove for this Government to take over. I want to quote what he said—

The fact is that in 1948 the country was in such a good position that the changeover when the present Government took over happened as smoothly as the changing of a glove, and indeed they made very few changes in regard to representation and things like that for a very long time. We had representation of the Native people in this House right up to 1959.

Is there really any need for me to-day to repeat to the hon. member for Pinelands the entire history of the constitutional struggle to have our policy implemented which we have had to wage from 1948 when we came into power? Where was the hon. member during this entire struggle for him to say now that the change-over when the present Government took over happened as smoothly as the changing of a glove? Is it impossible for him to remember? Was he asleep, politically speaking, at that time, or was he in a coma? Is it impossible for him to remember the struggle we waged from 1948 up to 1959 when the last phase was reached in removing the Bantu Representatives from this House? In those years the United Party had at its side the Progressive Party, which is represented here to-day by the hon. member for Houghton, as well as the Liberal Party, which to-day no longer has any representation in this House. I want to bring a few matters forcibly to the attention of the hon. member. He said things went so smoothly. Does he still recall the predictions of doom of this Government coming to a rapid fall and of economic conditions changing to such an extent that the banks would close which were made by them along with the Progressives and others whom they had under their wings when we came into power in 1948?

*Mr. J. O. N. THOMPSON:

What does that have to do with chaotic conditions?

*Mr. P. Z. J. VAN VUUREN:

But the hon. member said things went so smoothly. Does he not recall that we were faced with the suspicion of the U.N. in 1948? Does he not recall how General Smuts crossed swords across the floor of the U.N. with Mrs. Nehru under the instigation in this country of the Indian National Congress and of the A.N.C., and of people who shared the views of the present hon. member for Houghton and others? What I am talking about is history. Does he not recall the chaos which existed in our large cities and elsewhere, as far as nonwhite housing was concerned, in 1948? Justthink what conditions used to be in places such as Pretoria and Johannesburg, even here on the Cape Flats, and in other smaller towns and cities. What chaos prevailed! One could hardly drive along a mQin road at that time without seeing the unsightly non-white squatters’ camps. This Government had to clear up those conditions under very difficult circumstances which had been created by the previous Government. From this chaos the National Party had to create order and I challenge anyone to point out to-day a single squatters’ camp along our main roads or near our large cities. What does one fine to-day? One finds order throughout the country. Those who have eyes to see can see what proper housing has been provided in the large cities and towns. The hon. member said that everyt ling was “rosy in the garden” in 1948. Can he still recall the uncontrolled influx of Bantu into our towns and cities? When we discussed these matters in this House the other day, an hon. member opposite stood up and said that as far as Johannesburg was concerned, a United Party authority was not in power at that time, but those things were allowed to happen under a United Party Government when the Labour Party was in power in the City Council of Johannesburg. To-day under this National Party Government we see to it that the implementation of this legislation in our cities is as good as it can possibly be. We do not hide behind the fact that United Party supporters are in power in cities like Cape Town and Johannesburg. We tell them, “You have to implement this Act, and if you do not do so, we shall see to it that new legislation will be passed to force you to do these things”. Sir, every time we bring this accusation against the United Party, they tell us, “There was a war on”. But let us not overlook the fact, and let us have no illusions in this regard, that the National Party has been fighting a war since 1948. That war started when the U.N. came into existence. We have been fighting a cold war in which South Africa has been making as many sacrifices and has been spending as much money as the United Party Government did in their time. [Time expired.]

*Dr. J. H. MOOLMAN:

We have just witnessed two hon. members on the opposite side of this House, the hon. member for Primrose and the hon. member for Benoni, devoting a major part of their speeches to attacking the hon. member for Houghton. One of these hon. members devoted more than half of his speech to doing so and the other also devoted a large part of his speech to attacking the hon. member, whereupon they proceeded to tell us in what a chaotic condition they found the country in 1948. They had the audacity to say that we always made the excuse that a war was on. To me it is surprising that someone of high intellect—and I want to give the hon. member credit for that—should try to create the impression here that countries which fought that war, those who were victorious as well as those who were not, did not suffer as a result of the war, and that this Government was the only one which h s been able to rehabilitate the level. What about a country such as Japan, which lost the war, and which has developed tremendously during the post-war years? Mr. Chairman, I am not going to bother about arguments of that nature. I have asked the hon. member for Primrose to be present here, because I want to reply to a remark made here by him.

*Mr. G. F. VAN L. FRONEMAN:

He has left for Willowmore. He has apologized for being unable to be present.

*Dr. J. H. MOOLMAN:

I shall nevertheless say what I intended telling him and someone else can convey my remarks to him. The hon. member spoke of the damage which the speech of the hon. member for Houghton was going to cause. Sir, not for a very long time have I listened to a more irresponsible speech by a responsible member on the opposite side of this House. The hon. member spoke here of a thorough hiding which the hon. member for Houghton ought to get. I am surprised that something like that was allowed in this House. I wholeheartedly agree with the hon. member for Houghton that there are hon. members opposite who suffer from a superabundance of conceit and who are extremely “insolent”, an English word for which we do not have a good Afrikaans equivalent. The hon. member for Primrose is one of the members who are both conceited and insolent.

*An HON. MEMBERS:

There is a good Afrikaans word for that.

*Dr. J. H. MOOLMAN:

I want to come back to the speech of the hon. the Minister. When the hon. the Minister replied to a part of the debate, he delivered a long lecture to us on the prerequisites for independence. He emphasized the fact that the coming of independence could take a long time, a very long time. I should like to know what the Minister had at the back of his mind when he used those words. By implication he condemned the independence of Lesotho, Botswana and Swaziland.

*The. MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT:

Nonsense.

*Dr. J. H. MOOLMAN:

Yes, of course he did. Those countries did not, after all, comply with the prerequisites mentioned here by him. They became independent quite suddenly; their independence was granted to them by the country which had protected them up to now. We boast of those countries governing themselves with a certain measure of responsibility; we boast of the good neighbourliness which we expect of them, but now the hon. the Minister tells this Committee that it takes a very long time before a country can becomeindependent and that there are a whole number of prerequisites for independence. We have told the Government time and again that the time-table is taken out of its hands when it has promised sovereign independence to a country. It will not always be for this Parliament to decide when the time is ripe for independence. We see what is happening in the world. Things will get as out of hand as a horse which has broken its reins.

The hon. the Minister went on to say that he was very satisfied with the replies to the debate given by his two Deputy Ministers yesterday. I must say that the hon. the Minister is satisfied with very little. We on this side are of the opinion that poorer contributions to the debate on this Vote by hon. members opposite, and especially by the two Deputy Ministers, have never been made. One of the Deputy Ministers devoted all his time to making a personal attack on the hon. member for Durban (Point) about two minor points to which he did not reply in the end. The hon. member for Heilbron dealt with the question of border areas with such a degree of trepidation that he eventually said, when speaking of the area bordering on King William’s Town and East London, “You should realize that conditions at Hammanskraal differ from those at East London; in the area near East London there are no raw materials, no power and water”.

*The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION:

And on top of that you are there.

*Dr. J. H. MOOLMAN:

Do you know, Sir, why his reply was so luke-warm? The reason for that is that neither the hon. the Deputy Minister nor other hon. members opposite believe that it is possible to create a number of independent Bantu states and to succeed in removing the majority of Bantu from the white areas so that the majority of the population in the white areas will be white. As long as we have the position that the majority of the population in the white areas consists of Bantu—and as far as I can see that will be the position forever and a day—we shall have breeding ground for dissatisfaction here in view of the fact that people work here whose homeland is goodness knows where. Mr. Chairman, were we convinced that the Government’s policy of creating independent sovereign Bantu states and of having a confederation of states was a practical one, it would be our duty to support it, because all of us are in fact seeking a solution to the Bantu problem in a country in which we have, and there are no two ways about this, a mixture of races consisting of a vast majority of Bantu, a large Coloured population and a smaller white population. In dealing with this problem, it is the duty of all of us to give deep thought to this matter and to try and find a solution to this problem. If there were any reason or justification for believing that we could create 8, 12 or 14 independent Bantu states here and in South West Africa and that we would be able to draw, instead of to force, the majority of the Bantu population to those areas, then it would be our duty to support that policy, but we do not believe that it will be possible to do so. It is impossible; it cannot be done. It cannot be done because the economic and industrial development of South Africa at present and for many years to come is and will be dependent on that Bantu labour.

We have experience of the problems attaching to immigration. We know what a struggle we have to bring immigrants to this country; we know how many people are emigrating from South Africa to states in the north. We know what the rate of immigration is which we are able to maintain. We know at what rate the Bantu population as well as the Coloured population is increasing. We know that we live in a country of different population groups. We must squarely face up to the problem. We should not follow an ostrich policy of burying our heads in the sand, and we should not imagine that we can drug the public. The Government’s policy is nothing but an attempt to drug the public; to bring the public under the impression that they may rest assured and that the stream to the white areas will eventually be checked and reversed.

Mr. Chairman, I do not have any more time to devote to this matter. I should like to come to the situation in the Ciskei. I do not want to be accused of dealing with the Ciskei or the Transkei only, but there are certain particulars as regards the Ciskei which I should like to mention. The eastern border of the Ciskei involves a whole number of white towns: Peddie, East London, King William’s Town, Victoria East, Fort Beaufort, Stutterheim, Queenstown, Lady Grey, Herschel, Comgha, Indwe, Cathcart and Elliot. Within these 13 so-called white districts there are 764,000 morgen of Bantu property. [Time expired.]

*Mr. G. P. VAN DEN BERG:

I take it amiss of the hon. member for East London (City), who has just sat down, for actually having made excuses for and associating himself with the speech of the hon. member for Houghton. We in this House have seldom heard a tirade such as that which came from the hon. member for Houghton this afternoon. I think decisive replies have been given to her, but I repeat that I take it amiss of the hon. member for East London (City) for actually having taken the hon. member for Houghton under his protection as regards the contents of her speech.

*Mr. J. E. POTGIETER:

The hon. member for Houghton is still a U.P. member.

*Mr. G. P. VAN DEN BERG:

We know how the members of the United Party revelled in the speech made by the hon. member for Houghton. Therefore she did not speak for the Progressive Party only; it was very clearthat she also spoke for members of the official Opposition in this House.

Sir, when I participate in this debate and the discussion of the Bantu Administration and Development Vote, I am very deeply conscious of the calling which the white people have in South Africa, the calling which they have in Africa, and I do not try to make any political capital but I try to have regard, at all times to the task we have here in Africa. In discussing this Vote, separate development springs to mind involuntarily, separate development as it has taken shape during the past 20 years, particularly since 1948 when this Government came into power. The policy which this Government has been implementing for 20 years, came to it as a challenge in 1948, and this challenge was the regulation of race relations amongst the various populations in South Africa. Our first and greatest task was to set about untying the population knot which had been tied in the course of 300 years in South Africa, and we know that as a result of this policy unprecedented hatred and blind prejudice have been built up against us in the international sphere. That hatred and prejudice in the international sphere have been fed from this House. Speeches made by members of the Opposition in this House have been feeding the international opinion against South Africa in its honest and sincere attempt to regulate race relations in South Africa.

Mr. W. V. RAW:

[Inaudible.]

*Mr. G. P. VAN DEN BERG:

I shall shortly oome to that hon. member. He should please exercise some patience. In the time which I have at my disposal, I hope to come to him before long. In its application of the policy of separate development this Government—and I have no hesitation in saying this—has taken mainly three factors into account. We have taken Christianity into account: and I am not apologizing for mentioning this. We have taken fairness to all the various nations in South Africa into account and we have taken morality into account. In implementing this policy we have been taking these things into account over the past 20 years, and hon. members of the Opposition who may refer to this scornfully, know that this is so. We know that this is so, and that has been our inspiration for going ahead with this. This Government and the National Party have committed themselves to this voluntarily. It will always adhere to, inter alia, these three basic principles. We have asked ourselves, the question what we want to attain in this oountry with separate development. These three objects which I am going to mention are not my own original ideas but come from our respected Prime Minister. We are seeking the retention of identity, not only the identity of the white man in South Africa, but also an identity for the Bantu of South Africa. There is no need for us to go into this. Nobody in the world can accuse us of having ignored the question of identity or of confusing identities in the application of our policy of separate development.

*Mr. J. E. POTGIETER:

Also as regards the Coloureds.

*Mr. G. P. VAN DEN BERG:

Yes, that is correct, but under this Vote I may not discuss the Coloureds. With our policy of separate development we, unlike the United Party, are seeking the retention of identity. They want to make politics out of this matter. They are not seeking the retention of the identity cf either the white man or the Bantu. Under the policy of separate development, as applied by this Government and built on the foundations we have laid, we are seeking the retention of an identity of our own. In the second place, we are seeking the elimination of points of friction amongst the Bantu and other population groups. I think that we have succeeded in doing so to a large extent. Call this petty apartheid if you wish; call it whatever you wish. We are seeking the elimination, and in this we have succeeded, of points of friction amongst the various Bantu population groups and other population groups in South Africa. Under the policy of separate development we are seeking, in the third place, the creation of opportunities for the white man, for the Bantu and for every population group in this country. I want to ask the hon. member for East London (City) to test this in a spirit of fairness and honesty. Let us forget politics for the moment. Seeing that we are discussing the Bantu Administration and Development Vote, let us apply the test to see whether we have succeeded in creating opportunities for the Bantu. We have succeeded to a larger extent in creating opportunities than we have ever succeeded in the past 300 years. During the past 20 years this Government has succeeded to create more opportunities. Therefore my uneou’vocal reoly is that we. have in fact succeeded to achieve our basic objects. No one will deny that many problems and difficulties will crop up in the application of this policy. Many of these problems and difficulties are ones wh’h arise from speeches made in this House. The opposition in the international snhere has been built up and inspired from this House as a result of speeches made by hon. members of the Opposition. When have there ever been more education opportunities for the Bantu than those which have heen created under this Government during the past 20 years? What did the hon. the Opposition do when they were in power to create opportunities in the sphere of justice for the Bantu? This Government has created those opportunities and the world may take corniance of this fact. Un to this stage— belittle this if vou wish—we have already appointed two Bantu magistrates for the Rantu, which has been something new in the history of South Africa. Let us therefore be honest and give acknowledgement where acknowledgement is due. Let us criticize whatever deserves criticism, but let us also give acknowledgement where acknowledgement is due for the services which have been rendered and fcr the opportunities which have been created.

As regards the field of business, I want to ask when more opportunities have been created for the Bantu in his own areas for business undertakings, industrial development and agricultural than have been created during the 20 years for which this Government has been in power? Under the policy of separate development we have given them these opportunities. This Government is creating a governing class, and in spite of that we had the allegation by the hon. member for Durban (Point) last night, something which was said for world consumption, that slave labour was prevalent in South Africa.

*Mr. W. V. RAW:

That is not true.

*Mr. G. P. VAN DEN BERG:

The hon. member said slave labour was prevalent in South Africa. [Time expired.]

Mr. W. M. SUTTON:

Mr. Chairman, I have no intention of following the hon. member who just sat down in the flights of fantasy in which he engaged. He said he was not original in his thought. He was quoting something that had been said by the hon. the Prime Minister and it seemed to me he was talking about things we have heard before in this House, especially during this debate.

I want to revert to a remark made by the Minister when he said he felt that replies had been given very adequately by the hon. the Deputy Ministers who spoke during the debate. We have remarked before the Minister seems to be very easily satisfied. It seems to me whenever the Nationalist Party, particularly the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education, is in trouble, he seizes upon one or two words used in a speech and then makes a blustering, roaring and thundering speech on that word or two. He thereby tries to obscure the whole issue on which the speech was based from which he plucked the word. That is What he did yesterday. He did that with three words he had heard in three speeches made during a 30 minutes’ attack on the Government and so tried to obscure the whole issue. He makes a few iokes, a few cracks, and he draws a few laughs from hon. members on that side. They way those hon. members enjoyed his speeches one could think he was a great comedian. It may well be that he is one. One might think he was Dick Bentley or somebody. But we on this side do not think he is Dick Bentley; we think he is just a bit “dik” mentally.

I want to raise a matter which is local to my own people; it concerns my own constituency, and not only my own constituency because it is a matter of great importance throughout the whole of South Africa. I refer to the matter cf soil erosion in Bantu areas. This matter was brought pertinently to the fore in an article in the Natal Mercury under the heading of “Setback over Soil Erosion”. The report reads as follows—

Natal South Coast farmers, concerned about what they allege to be lack of control over the increasing menace of soil erosion from inland African areas, cannot obtain any immediate Government action in the matter because the necessary resources of trained men and funds are not available…. They claim that if the current rate of soil destruction is not checked, serious damage to the whole of agriculture, white and black, throughout that region will occur. The problem centres, they state, are in Locations 4 and 5…. There appears to be little hope of obtaining additional white staff for the area, and the main manpower hope seems to lie with the graduates who will be coming from the Empangeni African Agricultural College…. Although the Department is reluctant to forecast when it will be possible to commence work in the area, my impression is that—taking into consideration progress in the other locations so far and the limited availability of resources —a concentrated effort there is unlikely to be possible before 1972 at the earliest. If additional funds are not forthcoming and the present “squeeze” is not relaxed, the date could be as far away as 1975.

This is a problem which is local to my area, the area of Ixopo. Highflats. and the whole southern area of Natal. It is tied up also with the clearing of three Bantu locations in the area of Ixopo. the provision of housing, a Bantu village of some sort, for all the Bantu population who serve the Ixopo area, and the removal of the other Bantu from those locations to Platts Estates or to other parts in the immediate area of Ixopo and Highflats. In 1966 I asked the Minister when it was intended to go ahead with a Bantu area for Ixopo and the reply was no date had been set and the matter was still being investigated and considered.

Recently there was a movement afoot amongst the five farmers’ associations throughout the whole of the area to get together to form one common body to deal with agricultural problems. I want to ask the Minister whether departmental officials can meet that body when it gets going, in an effort to settle these two questions. The one is the provision of Bantu housing for Ixopo village. This has been going on now for 20 years. I appreciate the Minister’s difficulties and I know he has got difficulties there. It relates specifically to the three locations which we understand are to be cleared up. The other matter is that of soil conservation in the Bantu areas. While I am on that subject, something appeared in a newspaper report, and I should like the hon. the Minister to confirm or deny it. If he will tell me it is not true, I will be only too pleased.

The heading of the report says “Fanners angry at soil conservation sackings”. The report reads as follows—

Natal farmers and South Coast hoteliers are shocked and angered by the forced sacking of soil conservation workers in vital Bantu areas in Natal … Soil conservation workers in Natal’s Bantu areas have been sacked because of the credit squeeze, and actual physical conservation works have come to a standstill. Farmers are describing this surprising development as a calamity “tainted by an Alice-in-Wonderland insanity”.
The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU DEVELOPMENT:

[Inaudible.]

Mr. W. M. SUTTON:

The Deputy Minister can tell me whether it is true or not.

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU DEVELOPMENT:

You have already decided it is true.

Mr. W. M. SUTTON:

I am asking whether this is true. If it is then it is evidence of the utmost short-sightedness. Farmers say this is a calamity. This is what one farmer said—

By saving RIO now we are allowing soil damage to increase to a degree which in a few years’ time an expenditure of R 10,000 will not be able to put right … It is understood that the majority of conservation workers who have lost their jobs in the Bantu areas are Bantu extension officials’ assistants, semi-trained and untrained workers. This has necessitated the halting of work on the physical aspects of conservation … Farmers are generous in their praise for the work which has already been done in these areas by Bantu Affairs Department agricultural officials …

Let me say also I recognize, and I am pleased to recognize, the work that has been done by those people. A lot of work has been done. If it is true that there have been sacking of workers in this vital work, the conservation of soil in the Bantu areas, then I regard it as inexcusable. I concede it is as a result of the Government’s credit squeeze and the Minister had to get rid of some people and to cut down on departmental expenses somewhere. But I do not think soil conservation in these areas is being tackled energetically enough and I appeal to the hon. the Minister to inspan the forces of the white farmers in the area who are concerned about soil conservation. If help is necessary, and if they can help, then their assistance must be sought and made use of. I am certain they can. In this area, from Underberg right down to the coast, we have one of the most productive, progressive, well-farmed and best-conserved areas in the entire country. It is discouraging for those farmers who are incurring expenses and who are making efforts in the sphere of soil conservation to look over the fence and see what is going on in Bantu areas, to realize that things are going backwards. The Chief of the Natal region of the Department of Agriculture says we are going backwards as far as soil conservation is concerned in the Bantu areas.

I ask the Minister to consider at least meeting the white farmers in that area to see whether they can be of help in any way. Perhaps we can get together and help the department with steps now, before it becomes too late and before serious damage is done which cannot be put right.

I know this is perhaps a local matter, but I feel it is indeed more than a local matter because it goes on right through the constituency. Through this constituency flow the Umzimkulu tnd the Umkomaas rivers as well as other big Natal rivers. Along every one of those *re thickly populated Bantu settlements and in certain areas the only solution I can see is to gather the Bantu people together, get them into village communities, and to afforest these areas, because the grass and the topsoil are gone. Only by careful tending and planting of forests and avoiding fires and keeping out goats can the soil be retained in places. The Minister knows the area if one goes across the Umkomaas River going up between Impendhle, Boston and Bulwer, and he will know the sort of area I mean. He may well have problems there as there are roads and all sorts of things involved. But some action has got to be taken now and I should like to suggest that we on our side are prepared to help where we possibly can. [Time expired.]

*Dr. P. BODENSTEIN:

Mr. Chairman, at the beginning of his speech the hon. member for Mooi River took a hand in disparaging the two Deputy Ministers of the departments concerned. This Opposition is making a deliberate attempt to disparage these two hon. gentlemen who are occupying their positions in the departments very efficiently and purposefully. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Durban (Point), who spoke last night of his “abracadabra” and his “magic wand”, waves nothing but a club. I do not want to talk to him in a spirit of goodwill and respect. If one consults Hansard, one will find the irresponsible statement made by the hon. member for Durban (Point), namely—

If ever there was anything approaching slave labour, it is contained in this edict, because every unemployed Bantu is obliged by law to register for employment within one month.

Earlier on he said—

Because, of my limited time, I have to compress it.

I do not know whether the hon. member for Durban (Point) knows what “compress” means, but if ever he should have “compressed” a statement, then it was that one.

When we take an objective view of this debate, we find that the official Opposition has not been prepared to contrast one policy to another. They have been indulging in gossip and in petty personal agitations against the hon. the Minister and his department.

Parliamentary courtesy, like courtesy in any other field, requires one to give replies to questions which have been put to one. Can one blame the Deputy Ministers for the way in which they replied to the Opposition? Their replies were on the level of the questions which had been put to them. The hon. member for Houghton, who is sneaking in behind my back, always is on the same low level. I have become accustomed to her sneaking in behind my back. But let me put it very clearly this afternoon: This Opposition had the opportunity last night and again to-day of making a positive contribution to this debate if they were interested in this Vote. That little bright one, the hon. member for Mooi River, was the only one who congratulated them on the agricultural aspect. But he was merely indulging in flattery. He was subtle, just as subtle as his oolleague, that front bencher, the hon. member for Durban (Point).

Mr. W. V. RAW:

When are you going to start making your speech?

*Dr. P. BODENSTEIN:

We are faced here with an official Opposition who is trying to disguise its policy. At the beginning of this year when the hon. the Minister stated that in spite, of the costs which might be involved in making separate development a reality, this would be done, the Opposition made a great fuss. Last night they suddenly said. “There is famine, nothing is being done for the development of the Bantu homelands”. Why do they not consult the Estimates and the Loan Account? Why do they not have regard to the amount which was spent last year on the development of the homelands, namely no less than R38 million? This year more than R39 million have been spent. Why do they not consult the. Revenue Account? Last year more than R6 million was given to the Bantu Trust Fund as a grant-in-aid, and I understand that the estimate for this year is the same. This expenditure is incurred for the Bantu in the Bantu areas in order to remove the points of friction in the white cities, to give the Bantu hospitals in their own homelands.

Dr. J. H. MOOLMAN:

[Inaudible.]

*Dr. P. BODENSTEIN:

When the hon. member for East London (City) wanted the establishment of border industries at East London the other night, he spoke of “the shape of things to come”. What the hon. member knows about that is shocking. Let us see what is being spent on the development of the homelands. Let us take agriculture, which is an important aspect. On irrigation R1.204 million is being spent annually. On livestock R135.000 is being spent, whereas R 190.000 is being spent on veterinary services. The figure for afforestation is R2 million. But nothing is being done in the homelands!

I am now speaking about my own area, the Tswana homeland. The hon. member for Houghton should pay some attention for a change, but she should not come to have a look, because if she were to do so, she would noison and distort everything, and that I,do not like. This is the real state of affairs. During the past five years a Bantu township, Thlabane, has been erected there, a model township. This provides not only accommodation to the Bantu but also various facilities. There are snorting facilities, schools, and training centres. This is not merely in the interests of the Bantu. Do hon. members know that the City Council of Rustenburg has the privilege of being one, of the first councils which have been able to implement the policy of one Bantu per residential site? That community now displays a wonderful attitude as regards the Department of Bantu Administration, an attitude which flows from their gratitude for what has been spent on this Bantu township. Do hon. members know that peace and quiet prevail there? I want to make the statement to-day that things are going excellently in the Tswana Bantu homeland. I have this from the lips of Tedimane Pilane, the Paramount Chief, who said the following at a function when the administrative offices at Pilanesberg were opened. Pilane, the chief of the regional authority, pleaded in the presence of thousands of Bantu from the metropolitan areas for an acceleration in the establishment of border industries as his people wanted to remain closer to their traditions and customs. To-day we hear the hon. member for East London (City) saying that this cannot work. The Bantu Chief can see this working and can see this as the logical outcome of the policy, but the hon. member for East London (City) simply cannot lift the lid to see this. The hon. member for Houghton is one of those who are constantly trying to make policy statements from her lah-de-dah residential area of Houghton. Where do we find any of her people in the homelands? Where do we find any of the supporters of her party in the mission hospitals? In the Tswana area hon. members may go and have a look to see what a D.R. mission hospital looks like. They can go and see what the George Stegmann Hospital looks like and what is being done for tuberculosis sufferers. Where have I ever seen supporters of her Progressive Party who are prepared to go there …

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Are you a missionary?

*Dr. P. BODENSTEIN:

I am not a missionary, but I do thank the missionaries of South Africa for the missionary work which is being done. On many occasions in this House we have discussed what is being done in the African states by our missionaries. But I want to put it to you, however, that in the Bantuhomelands, where our own Bantu are going through the process of becoming nations, the missionaries have played an extremely important role in that process in respect of all ethnic groups. Hon. members should just go and have a look at what has been done by the missionaries. With the greatest respect for the Bantu’s traditions they have been doing inspired work as regards the evolution of the Bantu, and the missionaries have been teaching them the Gospel. To the missionaries of South Africa we can only express our sincere appreciation for what they have been doing in our homelands.

Mr. Chairman, grant me the opportunity of stating very explicitly that a mine is being worked in the Tswana homeland with its mineral riches. Jor the information of the hon. member for Houghton, I may say that she will unfortunately not be able to buy or acquire those shares. Consequently profiteering is out of the question as far as she is concerned. Union Corporation is engaged in developing a mine of R42 million, an enormous project, which is situated partially on tribal land and partially in the homeland. Of the taxable profits 13 per cent will go to the tribal authorities to be spent on the development of the area. Any businessman knows that when a mining company wants R42 million, the annual income from that source will be tremendous. Not only platinum, but also granite are being mined there. Let there be no misunderstanding as regards the fact that the Tswana homeland, in my humble opinion, is in the process of obtaining its own identity and on the way to achieving peaceful coexistence and ensuring its survival alongside the white area. [Time expired.]

*Maj. J. E. LINDSAY:

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Rustenburg spoke of the tremendous development in and expressed his satisfaction with Tswanaland. That may be true, because I do not know precisely what the position there is. But let us consider What has happened in the most highly developed homeland that we have, namely the Transkei. Just recently they unanimously adopted another motion there to the effect that the country should develop more rapidly and that white capital should be used both inside and outside the Transkei for the establishment of industries. What many people do not know is that one of the most successful border industries as such to-day is situated inside a Bantu area. That is the Goodhope Textiles factory, which is referred to so often in this House. The Goodhope Textiles factory is situated inside a Bantu area. It is situated in a border area as seen from the other side and it is successful. Where is the exploitation we hear so much about? Where is the exploitation of the Bantu in this case? It is an ideal state of affairs and that is why we say that the idea of border industries as such should be relinquished. Our industries should indeed be decentralized, but they should also be brought inside the Bantu areas. The exploitation we hear so much about will not take place there.

I want to return Jo the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Development. He was terribly indignant here last night. He asked how it was possible that there was still someone who did not know what white South Africa was. Various challenges were flung to and fro. Now I also want to address a challenge to the hon. the Deputy Minister. He must please tell us —and I am limiting my question to the Border area, although it is equally applicable to other areas—where white South Africa ends or begins and where the Black Ciskei ends or begins. I should very much like to know, on account of the consolidation programme which is being undertaken at the moment and the acceptance now that total consolidation is no longer necessary, what the practical governable unit for a Bantu homeland is going to be. What norm is going to be applied? Is it going to be the number of islands as such, the population within the island, the size of the islands or even the availability of compensatory land that will determine it? We know, for example, that there are more than 200 Bantu areas in Natal. They now have to be consolidated. Are there going to be 3, 13 or 30 eventually, or is it the Government’s attitude that we should carry on with the work and simply see how far we get one day? again taking the Ciskei as an example, we find that we have quite a number of black spots there and, inter alia, seven locations which, according to this hon. Deputy Minister, are going to be consolidated. But he did not mention the other disconnected areas, such as Glen Grey, Herschel, Whittlesea, etc. Are these areas going to be islands? Are they islands in the nature of nuclei? These are questions to which we should like to receive replies. It is very interesting that the hon. the Minister said, in reply to a question of mine, that these seven existing locations were black spots which are going to be separated. He added that in being cleared up they would either be consolidated or shifted. But now we accept that consolidation means removal. The only other way in which consolidation can be effected is by buying out the white land separating those spots in order to connect those spots to the heart-land. I have already asked this question twice. I now have to accept that, if I do not receive a reply to it this time, it means that the hon.. the Deputy Minister agrees with my deduction.

This brings me to the question of our corridor or passage. It must be noted, of course, that no corridor in the world has ever been a success, but now we have one between the Ciskei and the Transkei. In a previous debate I referred to difficulties being experienced by our industrialists in that corridor. But there is an important point which I did not mention at the time. It is something which affects not only the industrialists, but everyone in that area, namely the uncertainty as a result of the fact that the boundaries of this corridor have not been defined. We may accept the northernboundary of this corridor as being the Kei River. But in this regard one does not feel too reassured either when one hears of the motions recently adopted in the Transkeian Legislative Assembly. The hon. the Minister referred to this matter this afternoon and mentioned a long list of conditions for independence. This is, of course, no more than what we have been telling the Government all these years. They have nevertheless asked for more powers and for more rapid progress towards independence. But what is much more important is that they have asked for more land. Now one wonders where it is going to end, when under the present circumstances we already have this conflict between our Government and that Government. Although, as the hon. the Minister said, the Chief Minister of the Transkei stated that it was not going to be a tug of war, we should realize that this is only the beginning. One wonders where it is going to end. For how long can one continue having these conflicting outlooks and still maintain peace and good neighbourliness? In addition there is the amalgamation of the Transkei and the Ciskei. This would implicate the corridor to an even greater extent. I should therefore like to know what the position is, since we have until now made no progress at all as far as determining those boundaries is concerned. There may be something in the reasons which are furnished when it is said that the boundaries cannot be determined at this stage. Then I want to plead that we should make a compromise and start with one boundary. Let us determine the northern boundary of the Ciskei or the southern boundary of the corridor. Unofficially this was of course the road from East London and King William’s Town to the north, but this road has again been rerouted now. Does the boundary of the Ciskei change as a result of that? We should like to know. I think we may say that it would not affect the Government in any way if they determined that northern boundary of the Black Ciskei for us. That would determine the southern boundary of the corridor and give some certainty to that area. The Government would still have a good deal of latitude within the limits that would remain.

The rural towns have also been mentioned here a good deal. I want to return to this point. The hon. member for Heilbron had quite a lot to say about the way in which these removals to the new townships were being carried out. Of course, it looks fine on paper, as read out by the hon. member for Potchefstroom, but we all know that this is only the theory of it. It is not what happens in practice. The hon. member for Heilbron knows that it is not true. When, for example, did he visit Limehill? How long after the first removal had taken place did he visit that place? How much have the circumstances not changed in the meantime? [Time expired.]

*The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU DEVELOPMENT:

Before I come to the hon. member for King William’s Town, permit me to say a few things to the hon. member for Mooi River. I was astonished to hear this afternoon that the hon. member for Mooi River wanted to discuss the Estimates as well, because he is virtually the first member on the other side who began to discuss the Estimates.

The hon. member for Mooi River made the assertion that officials dealing with soil conservation had been discharged. I may say that it may have happened there. I cannot tell him at the mcment that no persons were discharged in that specific area, but the position is that we are almost going beyond the capacity of the Department in exerting ourselves for soil conservation. We are in great earnest about this matter, and seeing that the hon. member for Mooi River made the offer that officials of our Department should get in touch with farmers there in order to discuss matters, I readily accept that offer. Our officials will gladly cooperate. I want to tell him that in the Other Place I recently furnished the figures in respect of what we are spending on soil conservation, how many contours have been made, how many dams have been built and how many wire fences have been erected, etc. I do not have the time at my disposal this afternoon to repeat these figures, but on that occasion I also gave figures for Natal separately in order to show that we are in earnest about this matter and that we are working at it. It is true that many of the areas there are still badly eroded. We experience difficulties where there are tribal lands and the tribes do not want to accept improvements, but we are breaking down that resistance gradually. We are coming up against the position that planning is almost being asked for more rapidly than we have the staff to do the work.

I have to point out, however, that I have visited quite a number of those areas and that I was very disappointed with the position, even in the white areas there. I even notice that there are many people who vehemently criticize the Bantu areas, while the position is not much better in their own areas. The hon. member will know what I am referring to. I am referring to the area around Weenen, or I can refer him to Estcourt, at Locations Nos. 1 and 2, where we are already carrying out betterment works. But if one looks at the vicinity, there is still an enormous amount to be done on the white side. I can give the hon. member the assurance that we shall appreciate the co-operation of the Whites there, if we can get it.

I now come to the hon. member for King William’s Town, who does not know where white South Africa is, and I only feel sorry for him if he does not know where the white areas or the Bantu areas are. The hon. member comes from the Ciskei and he ought to know how the various Bantu areas were demarcated in the Schedule to the Bantu Trust and Land Act of 1936.

*Maj. J. E. LINDSAY:

But you are continually changing it.

*The. DEPUTY MINISTER:

I just want to correct the hon. member. I never referred to seven black spots there. (When I mentioned Sheshego and Wartburg and all the other Bantu areas, I did not refer to seven black spots. I referred to seven poorly situated reserves, scheduled areas. They were scheduled in that way in the 1936 Act, and for all practical purposes they are Bantu areas and are recognized as such. They are occupied by (Bantu and are ruled by Bantu chiefs. But the ihon. member’s people—and they are not always only my supporters, but also his—have already said prior to 1936, because those areas were proclaimed as Bantu areas as far back as 1913. that these disconnected black areas in the Ciskei could not remain like that and had to be consolidated; and the 1936 Act also provided for that to be done. That is why the 1936 Act provided that you could make exchanges and inter-changes as long as you give land of equal agricultural value. Now the hon. member should not try to put the blame on us; he should put it on the people who made the 1936 Act. But the hon. member surprises me, because after I had repeatedly asked his Leader whether he recognized the 1936 Act and whether he would implement it, he told me that he would implement it; and if he is going to implement it, he still has a lot of quota land which he will have to buy up in the Cape in terms of the 1936 Act. Do they now expect the superhuman of me. or do they want me to buy this land now immediately, when they are sowing suspicion in those areas as to which areas are going to become black and which are going to remain white? The hon. member now wants to know where the boundaries are. Will he now stand up and say that the Bantu areas which I have mentioned here and the other disconnected areas should remain just as they are and that only the additional quota land should be bought?

*Maj. J. E. LINDSAY:

That was not the point.

*The. DEPUTY MINISTER:

Oh no, he will not have a point now. He only has a point when he gets up at a political meeting in the Eastern Cape and sows suspicion and asks where the boundaries of the Bantu areas are going to be and then wants to suggest that this Government takes land away from the Whites for the black man. What they say then is this: “Do you see what the National Government is doing? It takes the land of the white man and gives it to the Kaffirs.” Then they do not talk of Bantu any more. Now he says that that was not the point, and asks that I should determine, one boundary. ([Interjection.]

But the hon. member has the boundaries as they were laid down in the 1936 Act, and he knows that quota land has to be acquired for the Cape in three areas. Either it has to be acquired in the North-West in the vicinity of Mafeking, Kuruman and Vryburg, or it has to be acquired in the vicinity of the Ciskei, or it has to be acquired in the vicinity of Herschel. That would be logical, or are we expected to acquire quota land here in Cape Town and to develop a Bantustan here so that labour can be at hand? Quota land has to be acquired in those areas and the hon. member knows that we are buying quota land very slowly, that we rather buy land in order to clear up black spots. Black spots are lands owned by Bantu and situated in white areas. Surely the hon. member knows of such lands. They are not even scheduled, but the 1936 Act, which he praises as an Act of his Party, provided that even when these black spots are cleared up compensatory land has to be given in exchange. We are clearing up those black spots. We are clearing up poorly situated Bantu areas where we are carrying out consolidation. We are clearing them up as the capital to do so becomes available. You will see that this amount has been reduced by R3 million this year. Last year R8 million was provided for this. We are now providing R5 million to continue with this work gradually throughout the country.

But now the hon. member wants to put words into my mouth which I never used. Now he wants to say that I said consolidation was not necessary and that consolidation has now been abandoned. I would have liked to repeat, if I had the time, what I said at the Sabra congress and on numerous other occasions, i.e. that the prerequisite for self-government for ‘the Bantu is not that they should have one geographic homeland. If he can understand that, we shall have progressed. They can be in more than one area, and the Minister and my colleague and others have also pointed out that we are no exception either. The Bantu areas which will get selfgovernment in this way will not be exceptions, because there are numerous other countries where the same thing happens, and examples have been given. [Time expired.]

Votes put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 46,—Bantu Education: Special Education, R342,000; Loan Vote Q,— Bantu Education, R1,600,000; and Estimates of Expenditure from Bantu Education Account [R.P. 9—’68], R32,300,000:

*The. MINISTER OF BANTU EDUCATION:

I am just standing up to say that the Deputy Minister will deal with the Bantu Education Vote, but while I am on my feet, I should like to make use of the opportunity under this Vote of taking official leave of the Secretary for Bantu Education, who, as hon. members perhaps know, is to retire on pension in June this year owing to the inevitability of the way of all flesh. I think that hon. members of this Committee also got to know *Mr. J. H. van Dyk in the years in which he was connected with Bantu Education, as I have in the past two years in particular been able to get to know him intimately, as someone who can indeed be called a recognized educationist, a man well-equipped in his profession and with a very mature experience of education and of life, a man who was a very fortunate choice as head of this Department. We know that after he had been associated with education in the white sector for many years, he became associated with the Department of Bantu Education, first as undersecretary for a long time, and thereafter, since 1961, as Secretary for Bantu Education. He served on many bodies and councils, interdepartmentally as well, and he was very highly respected everywhere. I think that nowhere was he more highly respected than among his own staff, both White and non-White, of whom there are tens of thousands in our country. I should also like to express my personal appreciation to him and I want to say to him that in my association with him I found him to be a man of extreme courtesy, and the co-operation between us could not be improved upon. Our co-operation was very cordial and was marked by mutual trust. For that I want to thank him personally, and I think I am right in saying that he can retire on pension a happy man, in the knowledge that he leaves behind him such a good name and such a fine record. I therefore wish him everything of the best in his retirement and I hope that the years of his retirement will still be a constructive and productive time for the benefit of all of us.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

It is my privilege to associate myself and those of us on this side of the House with the words spoken by the hon. the Minister on this the last occasion on which the present Secretary for Bantu Education will be with us to be associated with this debate on this most important subject. We agree wholly with what the hon. the Minister has said, and we also hope that he will have a long and happy period on pension. We appreciate the way in which he and his staff have dealt with us in the past when we have taken our problems to him.

We have just finished the debate on Bantu Administration, and during that debate the statement was made that, important as the economic development of the Bantu areas was. it was still not as important as the educational development of the Bantu peoples as a whole. The point was made that the Bantu people had to be developed to the point where they could handle their own administration, where they could govern themselves. Sir. this they cannot do without education. Admirable as the achievements of this Department may have been, let me say that I am sorry that they have fallen woefully short of what is required. I do not think it is necessary for me at this stage to give a long list of statistics. We all have the privilege of receiving the report of the Department, which shows the figures, and an analysis of those figures shows that there is a woeful shortfall as regards Bantu who go beyond Std. VI on to J.C. and matriculation and further. There are various reasons given for this shortfall in the numbers who go beyond Std. VI. I want to put a pertinent question to the hon. the Deputy Minister who is handling this Vote and through him to the Nationalist Party Government. I want to ask him why there is this discrimination against Bantu school pupils and the parents of those pupils. Last session we had a National Education Bill presented to this House, a Bill which has now become law, a main principle of which was that there shall be free education for white children in South Africa. The hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs has recently announced that education for certain Coloureds is going to be free, but we find that in Bantu education there is no such provision. They still have to pay for education. I know that the hon. the Deputy Minister is going to say that in many instances no school fees are levied. But the Bill which was presented to us last year, went so far as to say that white children must even receive free school books, which no Bantu children receive.

Mr. J. E. POTGIETER:

Are you advocating free Bantu education?

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

The hon. the chief Whip knows our policy with regard to education. Our policy is that every child shall be given every opportunity to develop to his full potential; that no child shall be held back through lack of finance in his family. This is why I want to know why they are practising this discrimination against Bantu children. This is the sort of thing we have: I have here a copy of a receipt dated the 3rd February. 1968, in respect of a young man who wanted to go on with his education after Std. VIII. He had waited two years since he was last at school because his parents could not afford the school fees. He was helped, fortunately, by his father’s employer to raise the amount. The school would not admit him as a pupil until he had raised his fees. Sir, this receipt is for an amount of R120 for school fees. Then he still has to buy books and clothes. Sir, this is the pertinent question which I want to put to the Minister. I have figures here which show what it costs just to purchase books from Sub A to Form V. This is a Bantu child.

Mr. G. F. VAN L. FRONEMAN:

Where do you want to get the finance?

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

Sir, the hon. member has the audacity to ask a question like that at this stage in this House after the statements which have been made on that side that we will have separate development, cost what it may, and when we know perfectly well for how many years the Bantu Education Vote has been pegged at this ridiculously small sum.

Mr. G. F. VAN L. FRONEMAN:

I want to know what you want to do.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

I am afraid that the hon. member has once again spoken out of turn. What I was saying to the ihon. the Deputy Minister was this: According to the figures it costs a minimum of R280 to educate, purchase the books, including exercise books and the necessary text books required, for a child to reach Form V from Sub A. In most schools there is a levy made on the children. This levy varies from R1 a quarter to 10 cents per month. This levy is paid by the parents and they make many sacrifices to pay these levies because they want to see their children educated. These levies are paid voluntarily; they are not compelled by the Minister’s Department, but they are there for the school boards to be able to supplement the salaries of teachers so that they will remain in the Department as teachers and not be drawn away to commerce and other sectors which are offering better salaries. These are voluntary contributions which are being made by the Bantu people. The iniquitous thing is that anyone of us in this House can put our children through school, in terms of the new national education policy, from Sub A through to matriculation without spending one cent. We need not spend one cent, yet the Bantu has to pay for his education, and I want to ask the hon. the Minister why there is this discrimination.

*Dr. G. DE V. MORRISON:

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District), who has just resumed his seat, spoke of “woeful shortcomings” in the Bantu Education policy, and in one single sentence he referred to the decrease in the number of pupils who complete their schooling beyond Std. VI. Sir, do those hon. members not want to realize that we are dealing with people who are coming into contact with education for the first time and that it is a slow process; that they have not yet gained an awareness of the value of schooling, and that we must slowly educate the people from the beginning for them to be able to assimilate that education? We cannot place them in matric immediately and say: “Now they are matriculants”. For example, he referred to the fact that Bantu children do not receive free books, etc., in all instances. He is aware that the total amount paid in Bantu taxation is paid into the Bantu Education Account. Is he in favour of our increasing this Bantu taxation? I put the question to him.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

What has that got to do with the matter?

*Dr. G. DE V. MORRISON:

It has everything to do with it. It is a question of finances. But I am asking him whether he is prepared to increase this Bantu taxation. I am asking him the pertinent question; he need only answer “yes” or “no”. Mr. Chairman, I receive no reply.

But I want to conduct this debate on a somewhat higher level. It is generally realized and conceded that agriculture is the cornerstone of the development of our Bantu homelands and that this statement is particularly true in respect of our Xhosa national units, the Transkei and the Ciskei. The need for agricultural graduate education for Bantu is steadily increasing and the demand on the part of the Bantu to receive this graduate education is becoming stronger and stronger. In the latest annual report of the Xhosa Development Corporation, the following statement is made in paragraph 3.14—

It is generally accepted that development activities should be concentrated on the processing and handling of agricultural and forestry products. It is a prerequisite to the stimulation of industrial development in the Xhosa homelands that there should be a marked increase in agricultural and pastoral production. It is conservatively estimated that incomes from wool, hides and skins could be increased by 50 per cent through improving their handling and marketing … The Corporation is convinced, and considers it its duty to point out … that the development and modernizing of the patterns of agriculture in the Xhosa homelands is a matter of urgent priority.

What is advocated here can, in my opinion, only be achieved if the Xhosa receive proper guidance by means of properly trained agricultural experts who have obtained degrees in this field. Together with my colleagues on the council of the University College of Fort Hare, I am deeply under the impression of the great need existing in this field, and I therefore want to advocate very strongly that a full-fledged agricultural faculty, which can offer a graduate course, be established at this institution as soon as possible. Admittedly there are 13 white graduate agricultural experts and one Bantu agricultural graduate in the Transkei at present. In the Ciskei there are four white agricultural graduates. These people are doing very valuable work in this field, but in the light of the fact that at this level we are also experiencing a serious manpower shortage in our white agricultural sector, it is imperative that these white graduates be replaced by Bantu as soon as possible. I believe furthermore that in his striving towards self-determination, the Bantu must be helped to be self-sufficient in this field as well. The University College of Fort Hare has the necessary facilities at its disposal as far as buildings and an agricultural experimental farm are concerned. It can therefore meet the immediate needs of such an agricultural faculty. With the spectacular development taking place at the moment, especially in the Ciskei, through the agency the Department of Bantu Development, there are more than enough facilities in the immediate vicinity of the University College of Fort Hare to provide, these students with practical training and ‘the facilities for it.

Mr. Chairman, you will also permit me at this stage to pay tribute to the present rector,Professor Ross, who is soon to retire, a man who not only pursued the highest ideals of higher education, but also succeeded in making the University College of Fort Hare an asset to the Republic in general and to the Xhosa in particular. Thanks to his dedication, his faith in his calling and his purposeful pursuit of his ultimate goal, Professor Ross has succeeded in developing this University College into a splendid institution compelling even the admiration of academics from abroad. Since it has already been announced by the bon. the Minister that the University College will attain full-fledged university status next year, the establishment of a full-fledged agricultural faculty will not only give full content to the newly acquired status, but will also serve as a tribute to this professor who has exerted himself for this faculty for so many years.

I believe that the Bantu will take much more notice of guidance which he receives from a graduate of his own race and colour. I realize that the process of making him aware of the value of the soil and of the fact that he must preserve that soil for posterity is a slow one. This makes it all the more necessary for this full-fledged faculty to be established at an early date at the University College of Fort Hare. The Bantu are only too inclined still to regard the soil merely as a provider of food; to regard a tree as something in the shade of which you lie when it is hot and which you chop down when you want to use it for firewood when it is cold. This attitude of the Bantu can change and the correct attitude in regard to the soil can be furthered only if we provide guidance for him through his own people, and this can only be done when graduate Bantu agricultural experts are placed at the disposal of the Bantu homelands.

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

Mr. Chairman, I think the. hon. member for Cradock is not familiar with the policy of his own party. The policy of his party, as it has been adumbrated in this Committee and in the House from time to time, is that every section of the four sections of our population will be educated to the highest extent to give the necessary leadership their people require. Hon. members on that side say these people are being educated so that they can control their own countries, their own homelands. In fact, we have been told here that when it comes to educating them, which is the fundamental reason, then the “sky is the limit”. That is the story we have heard over and over again. Now the hon. member is squeamish because the case has been raised that the money is not available. I should like to say a word or two about the money.

Before doing so, I should like to associate myself with the expressions of appreciation of a senior civil servant who is leaving us. I hope an opportunity will be found for him for further service. It always seems to me a tragedy that a man with ripe experience of a subject such as Bantu education should be lost to us. Either in the colleges or somewhere else we must find an opportunity for these men to give us further service. I associate myself with what the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) and hon. members on the other side have said.

I want to have a word about this policy again, and I want to quote from a newspaper report about a speech made by the hon. the Deputy Minister who I am pleased to say, is taking the Vote this afternoon. I am told that early in August when opening four African schools at Cradock—the Deputy Minister made two statements. He said, firstly, that South Africa was doing as much for African education as the African could absorb, and secondly, if the Government did more for African education than it was doing at present, this would be a waste of time and energy. I sincerely trust that is not true; I sincerely trust the Deputy Minister never made a statement of that kind because it is contrary to statements of policy we have had in this House from time to time. Provided they were having the education that was necessary for them to develop their own section of the population, then “the sky was the limit”, and funds would be made available, was stated here. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) has raised the question of finance and the hon. member for Cradock has also spoken about finance. I too should like to say a word about the financing of Bantu education.

I have never understood why in the beginning, in 1955, it was necessary ito have a separate Bantu Education Account. There is no separate account for Bantu Administration and Development. Why should these children be left out in the cold? When are we going to bring them in under the Bantu Vote so that we can consider them with the others? If we look at the Accounts we see a certain amount is made available for Bantu Education. There are two main items. I am ignoring the Rif million for university colleges and I am ignoring the R1 million that was received in fees and so on. They do not enter into this calculation. There are two main items. The first is R13 million which is pegged and the second is money derived from their poll tax which is R10.5 million. This R13 million I should like to speak about because that is the Government contribution and this amount was fixed in the original Bill that I am referring to in 1955-’56. That was 13 years ago. The depreciation in the value of money is approximately 2½ per cent to 3 per cent per annum, and if R13 million was made available 13 years ago it is a very simple calculation to say 13 times 2½, that is simple interest, not compound interest, is 32½ per cent, or 13 times three, which is 39.

Mr. J. E. POTGIETER:

We pegged that after the 1953 election.

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

Yes, you pegged it all right; there is no doubt about that. I remember the debate on the Bill when you pegged it. [Interjections.]

The. CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member for Kensington may proceed.

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

My point is this. If it was R13 million 13 years ago then to-day obviously it must be a figure between R18 million and R21 million, not to give an increase but to maintain the status quo in value. That is quite obvious. There is no point in saying it must be pegged at R13 million. Why peg it? Where is finance ever pegged anywhere in this country? Where have we ever pegged any amount in all our accounts in this House? We do not say we are going to peg the various amounts for the departments we have here. We do not peg the amount for Coloured education. Do we peg the amount for Indian education? What have these children done that they should be treated worse? Here we are today boasting to the world that the Coloured children will get free books and here for Bantu children the amount is pegged.

I want to go a little further. If that is the case, will the Deputy Minister explain to me why we should year after year keep on saying, as we do at the bottom of the account here, “Estimated adverse balance of Bantu Education Account as at 31st March, 1968 …”? If the Bantu Education Account has to have capital funds they have to borrow from the Main Account and they are debited with it. If any of the other departments have to borrow money on Loan Account, what happens to it? It goes on to the General Loan Account of the country. But not these children; they do not get that opportunity.

I want to go on a little bit further. I say this R13 million and RIO.5 million is not sufficient. What happened? We know it is not sufficient. The department will tell us it is not sufficient. So what happens to-day? Believe it or not, the parents of these poor children have to pay for some of their own teachers. I have worked out the figure, which is between 12½ per cent and 14 per cent. They have to employ their own teachers because there are not sufficient in the schools. That does not only apply to the lower primary schools but to the high schools as well. People are being asked to pay for their own teachers when we are telling the world that we are giving free education to everybody. As for the Transvaal, they are pouring money into education.

I want to go a little bit further than this. It is not only for their teachers they are paying. They do not get a fair allocation for books. They have to contribute for the building of their own schools. Here ‘the poorest section of the South African community have to make these sacrifices. I do not want to make this matter racial. We have the four sections in this country, we are told by hon. members on the other side. We are all developing our own sections., While ail the others are well financed and have the money they require, these people are told to contribute the money themselves. And what do we say to the world? We tell the world we have two million children in school. Under what conditions? I say under conditions that we as Whites should be ashamed of. I am not giving this information to the world. Here it is in Unesco’s book about the whole system. The book is called “Apartheid”, and they devote a considerable portion of this book to Bantu Education. They do not tell any stories. They tell what we say in this House. [Time expired.]

*Mr. H. D. K. VAN DER MERWE:

Mr. Chairman, I should also like to begin this afternoon by expressing my personal thanks and appreciation to Mr. I. H. van Dyk, who will retire this year as Secretary for Bantu Education. My first personal acquaintance with Mr. Van Dyk dates back to the years from 1947 to 1951, when I was a pupil at the Ermelo High School. Mr. Van Dyk was my principal at the time. There I got to know him as a man of particularly strong principles and one who could lead with strong conviction. There he was already a thoroughly scientific and solicitous educator. He was strict but always fair. These are also the qualities which made him an excellent administrator in this post. I think that his period of office as Secretary for Bantu Education will also be remembered as a period of positive and purposeful growth. We trust—and this is about the only point on which I want to agree with the hon. member for Kensington—that his talents will not be lost to us after this, but that they will still be available to our society in all its facets and with all its population groups. I also want to express a word of personal congratulation to Dr. Van Zyl, who will be the new Secretary. He is someone who has already made his mark as a good administrator and also as a scientist. As a student I did not really struggle with it, but there was enough to be found in the works which he wrote, inter alia about the Bakgatla, and I am certain that under his leadership in his particular position the firm foundations which have already been laid for Bantu education will go from strength to strength.

I now want to return to the hon. United Party. I want to make the statement right away that that Party is an integration party. They stand for integration of the various cultures and race groups in South Africa. As regards almost any aspect of policy that is mentioned in South Africa to-day, the source of that Party’s attitudes in South Africa is the urge to destroy the existing patterns of life in South Africa. In actual fact this policy of the United Party is only blazing a trail for the enemies of South Africa, and if they were to come into power, all the population patterns of our country would be destroyed within a matter of ten years. I want to illustrate this this afternoon on the basis of their attitude towardstertiary education, and particularly as regards their attitude towards university education for the Bantu.

It is by no means unknown that when the university colleges were established by this Government, the United Party fought their establishment tooth and nail. I say that that Party opposed the establishment of separate universities for the Bantu in South Africa. I now want to quote certain passages from Hansard, inter alia what the hon. member for Kensington said. I first want to come to the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. He said the following during the discussions here on the University College of Fort Hare Transfer Bill, as recorded in Hansard, vol. 99, col. 1553—

I move: To omit all the words after “That” and to substitute “this House declines to grant leave for the introduction of the Bill because it is part of a pattern of legislation incompatible with the concept of academic freedom and university autonomy obtaining in the Western world and hitherto also generally accepted as part of the South African way of life”.

In his speech he went on to say the following—

It is quite clear that what is envisaged in this Bill is the demotion of an existing university or university college to something which will not approach in any sense at all the concept of the university in the Western world. It is quite clear that it will be under the control of the Government in the person of the Minister of Native Affairs, and that its staff will be so controlled, and that those who can receive education there will be under his control … In fact, what is envisaged here is not a university but a Government-controlled school for some type of higher education, of what exact type it is difficult to envisage. It is also quite clear that it will not be worthy of the name of a university in any country of the Western world.

There was another speaker, Mr. Butcher, who said the following (col. 1562)—

Sir, we members of the university commission visited Fort Hare during the work of that commission, and I think many of us were impressed by the atmosphere that pervaded Fort Hare university. It was the atmosphere of an institution awaiting its doom. Ever since 1955 nothing further has been done by the Government to carry out the recommendations of that committee.

Then there is the hon. member for Kensington. The Minister of Bantu Education was speaking, and said the following (col 1564)—

What is the position of the University of Stellenbosch, the University of Pretoria, and the University of the Orange Free State? Those universities all exclude certain racial groups. Are those universities any the poorer universities for that fact?

Then the hon. member for Kensington replied, “Yes”. In other words, his attitude in respect of university education is that, if there is no Black person present at any particular university, it is an inferior university. If there are no white students present at the Bantu universities, they are also inferior universities. I just want to refer to this for a moment in order to develop my argument further. These objections were not raised for the sake of academic freedom, university autonomy or typical Western university traditions, but they are objections born of a specific education policy which the United Party wants to apply, namely that the children and the youth of South Africa. White and Black, should be educated and trained in integrated, tertiary institutions. In other words, they disregard the survival of the respective cultural and race groups.

Although we speak of primary, secondary and tertiary education, it iis very clear, when one deals with education, that primary, secondary and tertiary education cannot be seen as isolated from one another. They form a growing integrated unity which must serve the entire community of the group concerned. Only in that way can they serve other communities and the world. The United Party’s declared policy in respect of university education is one of integration of the Bantu, Coloureds, Indians and Whites. That is their declared attitude, but where does a policy of integration on the tertiary level lead us on the level of secondary and primary education? If the United Party were to gain control of affairs, they would simply carry through this integrated education policy on the tertiary level to the secondary and primary levels as well. They cannot restrict integration to the university level alone. They must carry it through to the secondary and primary schools. This is the direction in which the United Party wants to guide its education policy in respect of the Bantu. In other words, they are bluffing the public with fine concepts such as academic freedom, Western university traditions and university autonomy. But the ultimate goal is integration in all fields. [Time expired.]

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Mr. Chairman, I am not going to worry about the hon. member who has just sat down. It is not my business to defend United Party policy. I can only speak for myself. I can say right away that I think this country took a tragic direction when it took the direction of separate university education. and so removed the only contact which educated white South Africans have with educated non-white South Africans, the contact which is badly needed, because the average white South African of to-day gets no such contact whatever with non-Whites, and all his relationships are on a master-servant basis. We are all going to live in this country together, whatever the hon. member and his Government do.

This is a multi-racial country and it will remain so.

I want to ask one question, however, about the separate universities which have been established: How on earth can hon. members think, however well equipped these universities are and however many laboratories, etc., they have, that they can begin to compare with the huge universities which the African, Coloured and Indian students used to attend? Not only did they have the interchange of ideas, there were thousands of other students. [Interjection.] There were at least enough students to make the university a university in something more than name.

Dr. G. DE V. MORRISON:

Have you ever been to Fort Hare?

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Let us take the existing universities. The non-white colleges, of which most are sited in remote rural areas …

Mr. G. F. VAN L. FRONEMAN:

What is wrong with that?

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Because the greatest difficulty is then experienced by the vast mass of the urbanized Africans, who happen to be the most advanced section of the African people, to attend those universities. They cannot afford it. It is as simple as that. When a university is supplied for poorer sections of the population, there is always a transitional period where there should be large numbers of part-time classes so that the students can earn some money to help their families on the one hand and also to help pay the fees on the other, while they are studying. This has been the normal transition in every country that has had to set up universities from scratch with a population not fully developed. Hon. members do not seem to understand that. If a young man has to go away to a university in these remote areas, it will be extremely difficult for him to do so. Take for instance the University College of Zululand. The great professor from Zululand is unfortunately not here. But to the best of my knowledge there are 341 students at that whole university, of whom only 186 are taking degree courses. There is one teacher for every six students. This is ludicrous. I think the whole situation is out of proportion. The expenditure compared to the number of students is ridiculously disproportionate, while in the schools themselves there are 50 to 60 students per class to one teacher. It is ludicrous.

An HON. MEMBERS:

Why is it ludicrous?

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Because, for the sake of an ideological belief the non-white students who could easily have been absorbed into existing white universities, have been segregated and a university which, by sheer lack of numbers, cannot be considered a proper university, is set up. That is why it is ludicrous. These showplaces do not mean any

thing because there are not sufficient students to populate them. There are not the students because of the very good reasons suggested by the hon. members for Kensington and Pietermaritzburg (District), namely that the African parents cannot afford to spend money on fees and books which they have to spend on their children. One hon. member there asked: Where should the money come from? It should come from the coffers of the central Government. Where else? We put every possible restriction in the way of Africans to become fully productive citizens in South Africa with influx control, by not providing free education, etc. There are only 2,046 African income taxpayers, out of the vast African population of 11 million, earning a taxable income. Then we expect them to pay for their education. It is a disgrace.

Now I want to come to a specific point, because I have only ten minutes. I am very anxious to get a proper explanation from the hon. the Deputy Minister as to why he took the, I think, really mean step of closing the African night schools in Johannesburg and Cape Town. He can say to me: “These schools were of course infringing the Group Areas Act or the Bantu Education Act.” But it lies within his powers to make exceptions and to give extensions. He did give extensions for a number of years. What makes him now close down these schools when there are no adequate substitutes in the townships themselves, when the white people, who are largely responsible for teaching at these schools, are unable to go into the townships to the African night schools? The schools that existed in Nyanga and Langa, just to give an example, were in fact almost entirely financed from the proceeds of money from absolutely dedicated men and women, who have been running these schools for something like 27 years. The same applies to Johannesburg. The University of Witwatersrand ran a night school, largely for domestic servants in the white areas, because this is the only way these people can get any education. They have trained thousands upon thousands of Africans, who otherwise would ¡have had no adult education whatever. They have trained them from primary school right up to Matric, and many of them have gone on into the professions to take up teaching, nursing and medicine to swell the thin ranks of professional Africans who are so desperately needed, even in terms of the Government’s apartheid policy. Even if the hon. Deputy Minister’s promise is to be fulfilled, namely that all Africans will go streaming back to the homelands, where are all the professional people going to come from? Here we have a nucleus of Africans eager to learn and eager to spend their leisure time in productive work and the Government closes the doors to them. The Government says that the night-schools must close because they are infringing the Group Areas Act. I think that this is such an unnecessary action. There were about 230 pupils at the Capeschools and about 550 in Johannesburg. Why could the hon. the Minister not have allowed that to continue? What makes him take this harsh action against people who should be encouraged to spend their leisure hours in learning how to qualify for better jobs and improving their basic standard of education. When Africans who are absolutely desperate because these things have been taken from them, turn to other less productive and, I would say, much less advantageous activities vis-à-visthe white population and activities in their leisure hours, they are all condemned as being an irresponsible lot of people. That was one point I wanted to raise very specifically with the hon. the Minister.

I should also like to mention again the wastage of pupils. This situation is still as bad as it ever was. I had a private members’ motion last year and I was told that I was irresponsible and that I was providing ammunition for U Thant, and all the other usual nonsense I get in this House. I never get a single rebuttal of the facts I bring. There is always plenty of personal abuse but very little rebuttal of facts. I submit the salient fact that there is a tremendous wastage in the Bantu schools. The vast majority of the two million pupils who we are always hearing are at school are in the first three standards, namely the two sub-standards and standard one, and after that the graph representing the number of children at schools slopes downwards pathetically, so that by the time that we get to the higher primary and the secondary schools the number is infinitesimal. Only a few hundred pupils each year reach matric and most of those pupils do not get a matric exemption for going on to university. This is a parlous state of affairs. There is a desperate shortage of teachers. As the hon. member for Kensington pointed out, the African community, the poorest seotion of our population, have to find the money to pay for their own teachers. It is a terrible situation. I am always being jeered at because I come from Houghton. [Interjections.] If hon. members who came from less affluent areas say that all the taxes collected in Houghton should be used only for the Houghton residents I would say that they were talking nonsense. It is an accepted principle of modern democracy that the richer section of the community helps to pay for the poorer seotion. That should apply to the aid of Whites to non-Whites as well and for the help of the Whites to the Blacks particularly. The number of children in each class in the schools is far too high. There are 50 to 60 students and double sessions are still continuing, with underpaid and overworked teachers doing their best to keep pace with the demands of African education. Thousands of children are turned away each year in townships such as Soweto. These children cannot get into schools. Now there is also this terrible policy which lays down that no new schools, from Junior Certificate to Matric are to be set up in the urban townships. How are the urban Africans to get the higher education they desperately need for their children and which the Government in terms of its own policy desperately needs, if it is to develop the Bantustans? This is a self-generating hopeless position. [Time expired.]

*Mr. G. F. VAN L. FRONEMAN:

Mr. Chairman, before I reply to what the hon. member for Houghton said, and this must always be negative, since her speeches are always of a very negative nature, I want to deal with a few positive things first. Firstly, I, too, want to express my gratitude and appreciation to Mr. Van Dyk, the retiring Secretary for this Department. Many of the matters to which I shall refer later on in my speech, can be attributed to his dedicated service to the cause of Bantu education. I also want to pay tribute to his contribution towards building up a very good and fine organization. At the same time I want to congratulate Dr. Van Zyl who is going to take over the reins from Mr. Van Dyk. Dr. Van Zyl and I have served on several committees of the Department, and I have always known him as a person who speaks from knowledge and understanding and as a person who always has a positive contribution to make. I have great expectations from Bantu education under his administration. In view of these changes that are now being effected as regards the persons occupying these various posts, it is perhaps the appropriate time for us to take stock of what has happened in Bantu education since 1954, when in terms of the Bantu Education Act the Government took Bantu education in hand. In that year the system was changed over from one of mission schools to one of community schools, in terms of which the Bantu parent community was for the first time given a share in the education of their children. Before that time they did in point of fact have no say in this matter. We all know that for good education there must be close liaison between the parents and the teaching profession. This principle was applied for the first time at that stage. At that time the Opposition and those sharing their views condemned the Bantu Education Act. They said that it was going to be a collosal failure. It is unnecessary for me to read their speeches from Hansard. We know that one and all they acted as prophets of doom. Now I want to look at what has happened in the meantime. In spite of the objections raised by the Opposition a huge organization has been built up in the Department of Bantu Education over these 14 years. I just want to mention a few figures: 9,258 schools have been established; there are 38,403 Bantu teachers in those schools; there are 2,241,469 pupils in those schools. This is a huge number. Most of these educational services are being provided in the Bantu homelands, and not in the white homelands. I want to advise the hon. member for Houghton to look at what is being done in the schools in the Bantu homelands. Then she might gain abetter understanding of ¡Bantu education than the one she is gaining in Houghton through the informers who come to her backyard. The curriculum is suah that the pupils in these primary schools receive basic instruction which prepares them for further training at a later stage, and gives them a basis not only for theoretical, academic education, but also for subsequent training in service. But it does not only go as far as that. Vocational training is also provided. I want to mention a few examples, namely training for teachers, nurses, builders, motor mechanics, electricians, and many more. Under this Bantu Education Act such training is now being provided for the first time. Secondary education has not been neglected either, for we know that the public servants of thp homelands are to be drawn from the ranks of the pupils who receive secondary education. The fact that more and more of the Bantu in the homelands are working in their own public service, bears testimony to the major success achieved through this secondary education. Now I come to university training. Previously we merely had integration at the so-called “open” universities. When we introduced the measure in terms of which the three university colleges for the Bantu were established, which are today excellent institutions with an enrolment of 1,400, the United Party said that these so-called “tribal colleges” would not be able to train one single teacher. What is the position to-day? You must remember, Sir, that in 40 years’ time the so-called “open” universities did not train one single teacher for the Bantu. To-day we find that the three university colleges for the Bantu are rendering good services in various fields, each to its particular population group.

But we also find ourselves on the eve of further development. It is known that in terms of the hon. the Minister’s plans a public service is going to be established for each homeland. Tn this way, for instance, each Bantu homeland will receive its own Department of Education. It will fall under the territorial authority of the homeland in question. In these developments the Department of Bantu Education has a major task on its hands, and at present it is making arrangements for drafting a central, co-ordinated system of education to ensure that as regards standards nothing will be lost, but that all of them will have the same curricula, the same examinations, the same certificates, etc. The object is to ensure that with the proposed decentralization of education, nothing will be lost as regards the standard of that education. The policy is to convert Bantu schools and educational institutions, which are not location-orientated, into symbols, symbols of progress and service, which can be of economic significance to the Bantu in their own areas. Accordingly all training schools will from now on be established in the Bantu homelands themselves. In addition to that all trade schools will be moved there, as well as most of the technical and senior secondary schools. In addition to this hostels will, of course, have to be provided to accommodate pupils from urban areas. All of this will assist in making it possible for the Bantu of the cities to become homeland-orientated again, as the hon. the Minister put it here this afternoon. I mention these things because I want to see an understanding developing of the major tasks envisaged by the Department of Bantu Education.

Agricultural training is not being neglected either. In this regard I just want to mention the fact that 450 guidance officers have been trained by the Department of Bantu Administration and Development in close collaboration with the Department of Bantu Education.

In conclusion I want to come to the hon. member for Houghton. It is a pity that she has left the House. All I want to say about her, is that her criterion of what a good educational institution is, is based on numbers. According to her a small class of three or four persons does not lend status to such an institution—ffiere must necessarily be 60 or 600. {Time expired.]

Mr. L. F. WOOD:

Mr. Chairman, in the first instance I want to associate myself with the remarks made by previous speakers in connection with the tribute they have paid to Mr. Van Dyk. who is due to retire. I would like to express my personal appreciation to him for the extreme courtesy with which he has always met my requests for information. I would also like to wish his successor success, and I trust that the efforts of the Official Opposition in trying to persuade the Government to adopt a more realistic and pragmatic approach to Bantu education and the financing thereof, will make this gentleman’s path a little easier than that of his immediate predecessors.

The hon. member for Heilbron quoted various figures. These figures we can usually get from publications put out by the Department of Information or by the particular Department itself. I have no desire to refute these figures but I think that it is sometimes advisable, if one wishes to be objective, to equate them with other figures and other situations which exist in South Africa. Before I do so I want to say that as far as I am concerned I regard the financing of Bantu education as a large blot on the Nationalists copybook. I believe it makes nonsense of the so-called “separate but equal” claim which is so often advanced and it highlights the apparent reluctance of the Nationalists to implement their independent Bantustan policies. We have heard it said, and it is true, that no other racial group in South Africa is restricted to a fixed financial expenditure as the case is with Bantu education. We know all about the taxation question.

I wish that we in this House could receive some clarity and some accuracy in regard to that position. For several years I have sought by way of questions and by approaches tothe hon. the Deputy Minister for an explanation regarding the estimated amount of outstanding taxes and what the position is. I have failed to gain any clarity. All I can say is that the position is most distressing. During the last four years 734,000 Bantu have been on trial for tax infringements. When information is sought in regard to the amount of tax involved the answer is given that statistics for this type of information are not available. Comparisons are odious, but let us compare the Transkei and at the same time the number of Bantu in the Transkei who have been on trial for tax infringements. Over the same period the figure amounts to just over 10,000, a mere 1.3 per cent, compared to the figures in the Republic. To me. it reveals as far as the Government is concerned, that the Government is incapable of assessing the income which should be spent on Bantu education and that it is incompetent to collect the taxes.

I believe that whatever progress has been made in regard to Bantu education, has been achieved through the loyalty and the dedication of the people in charge of Bantu education, but I believe that they are severely handicapped in their genuine efforts. The concern that we on this side of the House express from year to year is borne out by other comments. If hon. members want authoritative criticism I would refer them to the findings of the Education Panel and to the Financial Mail’s article “Bantu Education Blunders” and to the numerous editorials which have been appearing recently in the lay Press which indicate the deep concern which exists in regard to this question of Bantu education.

Finally, and possibly as my best witness, I would call the Department itself. I now refer to the latest report of the Department of Bantu Education. The report is for 1966, already a year behind. If we refer to the report, we find the comment that the products of the school “must lead the various Bantu nations to independent and self-reliance”. They say: “For this purpose more than literacy is required.” They go on and say: “Urgent need for trained Bantu in the medical, paramedical, surveying and other professions, as well as in commerce and the public service exists.” The need for the latter is emphasized. What do we find? We find that during the last two years a mere 234 Bantu out of a population of approximately 17 million have obtained a matric exemption pass with mathematics which would equip them for studying further in the various professions.

When one realizes that out of the total enrolment about which the hon. member for Heilbro-n boasted, .1 per cent is in matric standard, it is easy to see that there is no immediate hope of an improvement in the figure of people who will be available to attend the ethnic Bantu university colleges about which so much is said. Here again, in comparison. let us look at the loan expenditure in the last seven years. We find that State expenditure on school building over the last seven years, according to the Loan Vote, has been a mere R3½ million for roughly 2 million pupils. We find, as far as the Bantu colleges are concerned, that over the same period the Loan Account reflects an amount of R5f million as having been spent for roughly 1,100 students.

When we come to the other racial groups in the Republic we find that if we take the Coloured group on the Loan Vote, the expenditure for Coloured schools within the last seven years amounted to iR34 million for just more than 400,000 Coloured students. If we take the amount spent for the building of Indian schools—and here I am not including the R4 million for the takeover of the Natal Indian schools—we find that in three years R6½ million has been voted for approximately 130,000 Indian pupils. If we go back to the Loan Vote as far as Bantu education is concerned, we find that a paltry figure of only R35,000 has been voted for Bantu high and secondary schools for this financial year.

A great deal has been said about the contribution of parents to Bantu education. I do not wish to cover that ground again, but I merely wish to say that in addition to the proceeds of the general tax which they pay and which goes towards Bantu education, the Bantu people, who are the lowest wage earners in the Republic, are called upon to contribute substantially to State funds also by means of indirect taxation. As far as school books are concerned, previous hon. members have indicated the position and I believe that the serious gap is between the primary and university level where the parent at a difficult stage in the child’s life is called upon to foot what can be regarded as an extremely heavy bill. What about the Bantu pupils themselves?

We find, as the hon. member has said, that as far as the Republic is concerned the latest enrolment figure is 1.8 million, 96 per cent of whom are in primary schools; 72,400, a mere 3.83 per cent, are in secondary schools. These are largely the products from the Bantu Education Act of 1954. What do we find as far as expenditure per pupil per annum is concerned? We find that the expenditure per pupil per annum on Bantu education falls by the year. Costs go up but this figure drops. The comparative figures show that in primary schools the amount is approximately R12. In the Transkei. strangely enough, it is R14 and as far as Indian pupils are concerned the figure is R53 per pupil per year. [Time expired.]

*Mr. H. D. K. VAN DER MERWE:

Mr. Chairman, a few moments ago I made the statement, and so far the United Party has not denied it. that their policy of tertiary or university training would and must inevitably also lead to a policy of integration in the field of secondary and primary education. But I want to return to the hon. member for Kensington who, in reply to a question put by the hon. the Minister, said that our South African universities could not really maintain an academic standard equal to that of therest of the world if Whites and Blacks were not studying at the same institutions. The very learned hon. member for Hillbrow is a University of Pretoria graduate. Now I want to ask the hon. member whether the hon. member for Hillbrow’s academic training is second-rate and not of world standard. Apparently the hon. member does not want to listen to me.

Another matter broached here to-day was the growth of the university colleges which was not rapid enough for the Bantu. I just want to refer the hon. Opposition back to the history of the white universities in our own country, and ask them what circumstances gave birth to the University of the Witwaters rand and how long it took that University to become a full-fledged university. How long did it take the University of Pretoria to develop from a university college into a full-fledged university? I also want to mention examples taken from foreign countries, and ask how long it took the University of Sheffield, for instance, to develop from a university college to a full-fledged university. From 1879 to 1905. How long did it take the University College of Southampton to develop into a full-fledged university? However, we have the position in South Africa that, against the will of a mighty world opinion and attended by the bitter hostility of the hon. Opposition, it took us less t-han 10 years to start university colleges from scratch and to develop them to what they are to-day. We had to deal with human material which for many centuries had never, and had perhaps never in the history of their existence, made contact with Western university standards. In 10 years’ time we had made so much progress that it was possible for the hon. the Prime Minister to say the following in a statement (translation)—

The Government had decided that academically the five university colleges can be emancipated from the University of South Africa, and that at a time convenient to itself each of them may, subject to certain conditions, make provision for its own curricula and its own methods of training students, conducting examinations, introducing courses for degrees, certificates and diplomas, and for awarding its own degrees and diplomas.

The concluding paragraph of this statement reads as follows—

The Government has taken this decision because it is satisfied that the university colleges have furnished proof to the effect that they and their staff have applied the desired academic standards as maintained by autonomous universities.

I should like to know from the hon. Opposition whether they agree with this statement, or whether they want to suggest this afternoon that the teaching staff at our Bantu university colleges consists of persons who are academically incapable of teaching their particular subjects. I ask them this frank question. Does the hon. member for Kensington want to reply to this, or the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District), or the hon. member for Berea? I also want to ask whether the students trained there had received second-rate training? Are the training and the syllabuses taught there inferior to those at other universities? I want to refer to the report of the Department of Bantu Education for the calendar year 1966, where amongst other things the following is being said in respect of Bantu university colleges—

As regards staff, expansion is continuing at a normal rate at the three Bantu university colleges, namely the University Colleges of Fort Hare, of the North and of Zululand. The total number of teaching staff has risen by 30 (15.6 per cent) since 1965. The number of Bantu staff members has increased by 5 to 43.

I now want to ask, if we want to look into the future, what the Opposition wants to do with the non-white students who, under their policy of tertiary training, would in all probability become professors and teaching members of staff later on. Would it be possible for those people to become professors at their universities? Would it be possible for them to become rectors? What would they, for instance, do with the whole social pattern? After all, the students and lecturers at the university have been drawn together into a community for a threefold task, not only that of giving instruction and doing research, but also that of educating. In addition, the number of students has risen since 1964 by 222, or 23.6 per cent, to 1,161. This is the first year in which the enrolment has passed the 1,000 mark. This figure reveals that a constant rate of growth is being maintained. Then, in all fairness to the teaching staff and to the department, one must add here that, although there has been student uprising and riots throughout the world, one is dealing here with three university colleges, where an atmosphere of calm has been prevailing, where gradual but stable development has taken place and where the academic standard and the threefold function which we associate with a university have in fact been very evident.

Then we come to new courses. The following new courses were introduced at the university colleges: at the University College of Fort Hare: a Lower Diploma Course in Librarianship; at the University College of the North: a Diploma Course in School Librarianship, as well as the subjects Hebrew. Municipal and Rural Administration, and Private Law. According to the questions they asked in the course of the year, the Opposition wanted to know how many engineering students there were. Sir. I want to ask you when the University of Pretoria acquired a faculty of engineering, after how many years? And if it had not been for the National Government and ifthe United Party had remained in power, we would still not have had it. The whole approach of the National Party is not to introduce a mushroom policy; it is not to establish mushrooms, but to establish university colleges which for centuries will be the pride of the respective population groups which are to be served by them. You and I, Sir, will not live to see it, but posterity will see this record of the National Party, and these university colleges will make their contribution and will develop into universities of which the rest of the world need not be ashamed.

Then, as regards degrees and diplomas, a total of 103 degrees and 91 diplomas were obtained by full-time students at the university colleges at the end of 1966; 154 of these were awarded to men and 40 to women students. Even the hon. member for Wynberg will not be able to say that the National Party discriminates against the weaker sex.

Then, as regards buildings and physical extensions, extensions to and amounts spent on buildings are shown in Chapter 5. The report states that “it is, however, of interest to note that a start has been made with the erection of bigger building complexes. For example, it is planned to feed from 2,500 to 4,000 students by means of the cafeteria system. The first of these cafeterias has been successfully put into operation at the University College of the North. Here also a start has been made with a hostel unit of 7 to 12 storeys which will ultimately house 2,500 students who will be served by 10 cafeteria kitchens.” We who studied at white universities often feel rather jealous of the possibilities the Bantu students are being afforded. If one takes our existing white universities, one sees that it is sometimes very difficult to purchase extra land for additional extensions, but in this respect one finds that the Government, which the Opposition and the rest of the world regard as being the oppressor of the Bantu, provides these universities with a start which most of the other white universities were unable to have. That is why I want to congratulate the department, the Minister and the two Deputy Ministers this afternoon on what they are doing in regard to providing our Bantu with training and stability. [Time expired.]

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

Before saying a few words about what the hon. member for Rissik had to say, I should like to refer to the fact that the annual reports of this department come out very late. I know there must be a good reason for it, but we have just received, a week or two ago. the annual report for 1966. When we had the debate on white education we had the report much earlier in the Session; we had the 1967 report in our hands well before the time. I know there must be some reason for this delay, but I should like to say that now that we have the report, what I like about it is the statistical part. It is certainly most valuable. Most of the figures we hear quoted in this House are contained in it.

It is, however, rather unfortunate that it comes so late.

Now I should like to say a word about what the hon. member for Rissik had to say about our attitude towards the establishment of non-white university colleges. He referred to Fort Hare. He seems to think that Fort Hare is a university college established by this Government, but long before he was born it was a flourishing university college. Have hon. members never heard the names of men as famous as Prof. Jabavu and Prof. Z. K. Matthews, who was afterwards the Christian Union representative for the Continent of Africa at Geneva and who represented Botswana at U.N., who in spite of the manner in which he was treated by this Government when Fort Hare was dissolved, remained a friend of this country? These are some of the great men who were associated with Fort Hare. This Fort Hare which the Government has created is not the original Fort Hare. We spoke of the rape of Fort Hare. This Government destroyed Fort Hare in order to create their new colleges. Fort Hare drew students from the whole of Southern Africa and even further north. The head of one of the neighbouring states was a graduate of Fort Hare. Wherever one goes and meets the leaders in Africa, one finds they were graduates of Fort Hare. It was a tragedy that we destroyed Fort Hare when it was on the brink of becoming a university, and the manner in which we treated some of those lecturers who refused to serve in a Government institution was shocking. What he is referring to is the fact that we objected to its becoming a Government institution when it was a university college with a measure of autonomy. That is the story of the original Fort Hare.

Now we come to the establishment of these new university colleges for non-Whites, not only for the Bantu but also for Indians and the one in the Western Cape. We never opposed that. I am sorry to say that men of higher rank than the hon. member in the Nationalist Party have made that statement. We never opposed the establishment of any of these university colleges—never.

An HON. MEMBER:

What did you call them? Did you not call them “tribal colleges”?

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

I was a member of the Select Committee and of the Commission, and if you want to know what our attitude was, you will find it in the minority report of that Commission. If the hon. member wishes to have a copy, I will lend him one, where he will see our attitude described. What was our attitude? It was a perfectly simple one. We said: By all means establish these colleges if you wish to do so, and we said that we were prepared to assist in establishing them. And that is exactly what has happened. We said: If you wish to establish more colleges, by all means do so, but do not destroy the colleges already in existence and do not impair the efficiency of the method we have alreadyevolved for educating non-Whites. We never opposed it; we were anxious to give them more facilities, not less.

Mr. G. F. VAN L. FRONEMAN:

Hansard tells a different story.

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

But you do not read your Hansard. The objection to Fort Hare was this. We objected to Fort Hare becoming a Government institution. It was a university college which had a measure of autonomy and it was on the point of becoming a university. This Government came along and destroyed its autonomy, and not only that; they had a council at that university consisting of Whites and non-Whites. White nominees of the Government, including distinguished Afrikaans-speaking educationists, served on that council. They had a senate of white and nonwhite professors and the Government destroyed that. The Government said, “You may not have a mixed council; it must be White.” These African professors I have mentioned were to serve in just an advisory senate. The Government said that people interested in the college could serve on an advisory council but they could not have a mixed council. Well, the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs has changed all that. He has a mixed council in Durban now. It is quite erroneous to confuse the old Fort Hare with this new creation. I am not going to discuss how they are going to become universities now. I wish the hon. the Prime Minister, when he made the statement, had given more details. I do not know whether there is anything else I can tell the hon. member. If he can get a few of the younger members of the Nationalist Party together I will be quite prepared to give them a lecture.

Sir, I want to pursue the theme of financing Bantu education as far as children are concerned. not as far as the colleges are concerned. After all, as far as the colleges are concerned, we have heard from the hon. member for Houghton that the ratio is 1 to 6. It is sometimes as low as 1 to 31. I think the average is about 1 to 51. Well, they are spending plenty of money there. I want a bit of money spent at the other end on the children going to school. I have said, Sir, that these parents are called upon to make great sacrifices. On many occasions they have to pay the salaries of the teachers because the numbers of teachers provided by the department are insufficient. But that is not the worst. I think the worst choice that has ever been placed before the parents of any Bantu child was the choice placed before them by this Government. The Government said to them, “You can have school feeding or we will use the money for more education,” and as the money for education was insufficient these people, who are so anxious for education. said: “Give us education.” The Bantu children nevertheless still go to school. Hon. members no doubt saw the stories in the Press about Soweto. The Press carried pictures of children going to school in the cold weather, not able to get into a building, not being fed before they go to school …

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

What a shame!

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

That is our system of education.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

That is civilization!

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

I am anxious to do something better. I have some confidence in the hon. the Deputy Minister. I regret he should ever have made the statement which I mentioned at the beginning, but that is by the way. Fancy being placed before the choice: “Which will you have: School feeding or more education?” These children have not got books; they have to pay for practically everything—one book to last four years! I want to ask hon. members who were school masters just to imagine a Bantu home with a book lasting four years. The pupils cannot take their books home. How can they take them home? They will not last six months. I have figures to show what it will cost to provide books for these children. They do not get what they should have.

Sir, I want to go a bit further. I want to speak about this book published by Unesco. It is called “Apartheid: Its effects upon Education, Science, Culture and Information: A study of South Africa.” When they talk about Bantu education here, they are on very firm ground because the things they quote are the reports of our departments, the replies of Ministers to questions in the House and extracts from Government speakers in debate. There is no doubt about the facts. We cannot say that these people are trying to blacken the good image of South Africa. They are not. To be quite honest, I tried to find something wrong.

An HON. MEMBER:

How does it compare with the rest of Africa?

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

I am very glad the hon. member asked that question. I will deal with it. [Time expired.]

*Mrs. J. J. ENGELBRECHT:

In most eloquent language the hon. member for Kensington told this Committee about the glorious days of the United Party’s Bantu education policy, and about their grand achievements at Fort Hare. If I were the hon. member. I would not have referred to that. After all, that was the integrationist course which they caused South Africa to follow at that time. When this Government came into power, a change had to be effected in that regard: otherwise we would have been heading for disaster and the whole system would have had to be replanned from scratch. Mr. Chairman, the aim of all education—and this is also the case in all other countries of the world and amongst other nations—must after all be to prepare thepupil for an adult life so that he as an adult may render the greatest possible contribution to the nation or community to which he belongs. To achieve this aim the educationists must therefore, when they plan an educational system for a particular group or a particular nation, bear in mind not only the interests of the pupils themselves, but also the needs and problems of the nation to which those pupils belong. Therefore, apart from certain basic principles which hold good for all educational systems, the educational system of each nation will have particular characteristics which differ from those of other nations. It is for that reason that a particular educational system had to be designed for the Bantu as well, a system which makes allowances for their particular needs and their particular problems. Unfortunately it is a fact that this generally accepted educational principle is not always appreciated or understood, nor applied, by hon. members opposite. This becomes very apparent from the speeches we once again heard from them to-day, but unfortunately for the Bantu, who were the sufferers in this regard, this was also very apparent from the implementation of their policy when they were in power 20 years ago. Their aim in regard to Bantu education was to foster amongst Bantu pupils a feeling of inferiority and abhorrence in respect of their own language, their own culture and their own nation. Their aim was to cause every Bantu pupil to develop into an English speaking Westerner who despised his own nation and his own culture. The consequences of this policy were fatal and disastrous for the Bantu. This led to a feeling of frustration and inferiority amongst them; the result of this was a feeling of hatred towards the Whites, because they felt that they would never be able to equal the Whites in every respect. But, above all, their system had the effect that the people they had trained at Fort Hare and elsewhere, refused to return as leaders of their own people, that they tried to adjust themselves to being Westerners, and in cases where they could not do so, they became agitators and instigators. That is why the Bantu are experiencing this dire shortage of leaders to-day. If we listen to the pedantic speeches hon. members opposite are making on this topic to-day, and if we compare them with their actions and achievements 20 years ago, then it presents, as far as they are concerned, a very dismal picture indeed. Whereas in 1948 there were barely 734,000 pupils at school, i.e. barely 9 per cent of the Bantu population, 2,200,000 Bantu pupils are attending school to-day, i.e. 17 per cent of the Bantu population. But much more significant than this meteoric rise in numbers, is the fact that Bantu education is directed at the nation today, that it has as its aim national service in the highest and purest form. That is why the National Party’s victory 20 years ago was not only a deliverance and a blessing for white South Africa, but also a deliverance and a blessing for the non-white peoples of South Africa. I foresee the day when the Bantu peoples of South Africa will celebrate 26th May, 1948, as a national festival day, because it marked the beginning of the rebirth of their emergence as a nation.

*Mrs. J. W. E. WILEY:

Yes, that I can believe.

*Mrs. J. J. ENGELBRECHT:

When a nation itself does not have the leaders and the educationists to plan for itself an educational system according to these principles, it is very fortunate if it has other people who can do so on its behalf. Sir, I shall read from the latest report of the Department of Bantu Education a few sentences to show you how our educational system is directed at the nation—

The Department was brought into being in order to educate a people, not just pupils. The schools under the control of the Department are, by reason of their historic origin, essentially community schools. By means of the school and the products of the school, it must lead the various Bantu nations to independence and self-reliance. The school, therefore, exists for the different Bantu nations and not just for their children.

In this way the whole nation is involved in the school and the education of their children. A stage of mass literacy has been reached. Instruction through the medium of the vernacular has taken on and become established. The Bantu have accepted education as something of their own. That is the difference between the educational system of this party and that of that party. How fortunate is such a nation, and how gratifying this report must be to the Bantu nations to whom their development as a nation is a matter of earnest! How I wish that at a stage when my people needed it, there could have been other people who could have planned for us in such a way!

*Mrs. W. A. CRUYWAGEN:

There were other people, but they planned wrongly.

*Mrs. J. J. ENGELBRECHT:

Yes, they planned differently. But I want to point out that the hon. member for Houghton and other hon. members opposite always level the accusation at this side that this nationally orientated education is aimed at leading the Bantu back to the kraal and the porridge-pot. To show them to what extent they are mistaken, I shall read from the Unesco report on a conference, “United Nations Seminar on the Multi-national Society”, which was held in Yugoslavia from 8th to 21st July, 1965. I shall read the following extract—

There was general agreement that all Governments should promote and protect the rights of ethnic, religious, linguistic or national groups. A number of those taking part in the debate drew attention to theneed for protecting ancient values in the developing countries. In the past many of their inhabitants had been caught in a cross current of an officially discouraged traditional way of life, and of an alien culture to which they could never fully adjust. To-day, therefore, every effort had to be made to awaken the masses to the needs of respect for their national or continental personality, while simultaneously striving for the attainment of modern objectives and the elimination of anachronisms or stultifying superstition. Some of these participants added that the maintenance of indigenous traditions was greatly assisted in their countries by a policy of strengthening tribal institutions, such as the authority of the local chiefs, or by enlightened codification of customary law.

This was not written by the National Party. These are the friends of the hon. member for Houghton, namely Unesco. She can see, therefore, to what extent she has lost the way.

I want to extend to the hon. the Minister and his Department my cordial congratulations on their wonderful achievement in this field. To my mind the work done by this Department ranks among the most important tasks in our present set-up. because in this Department the future of nations is being built and shaped in a way unparalleled anywhere else in the world. When we look at their unique achievements, we must always bear in mind that we cannot compare Bantu education with white education in our country or in countries abroad. The achievements of the Department of Bantu Education can only be compared with the achievements of Bantu education in the African states. If we look at that picture and try to draw a comparison, we see how favourably our achievements compare. According to the Unesco report of 1961 the average number of Bantu children attending schools in African states was only 16 per cent, whereas in South Africa 90 per cent of all 11-year-old Bantu children are attending schools at present. The respective figures for the various countries are as follows: Ethiopia —13 per cent; Liberia (the country which brought a charge against us at the World Court)—12 per cent; Ghana—28 per cent; Nigeria—25 per cent; Kenya—35 per cent. [Time expired.]

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Algoa is another one of these chaps …

The. CHAIRMAN:

Order!

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

… is one of the hon. members who can do nothing but put up a political diatribe. One can almost imagine him on a platteland political platform talking all this nonsense he talked this afternoon. [Interjections.] I hear the hon. the Minister’s interjection, but I intend to ignore him this time.

He will not lead me astray this time; I have other things to say.

I want to make one point. He said that up to 1948, when the United Party Government went out of power, we spent nothing on Bantu education. But the hon. member is asleep. In 1948 it was thrown at us on this side that Jan Hofmeyr, the then Minister, was a “kaffer boetie” because he dared to spend RIO million on Bantu education. They fought an election on that issue. ’[Interjections.] I am sorry but I do not have time to waste on the hon. member. I want to come back to the hon. member for Rissik. He started off by saying we had criticized the Bantu university colleges as being of a lower status. What did he do when he got up a second time? He quoted a speech of the hon. the Prime Minister in which the Prime Minister admitted they were of an inferior status to a university. I have here a copy of a speech delivered by the Minister on the 11th May of this year at the Ngoya university in Zululand. He spoke about the “apprenticeship period” which this university had gone through. He said it was time the ties with the University of South Africa were cut. He also said the necessary legislation was being drafted. He said—

Daardeur sal die kolleges elkeen op sy eie gelee tyd akademiese onafhanklikheid kan verkry en as ’n „universiteit” sy plek in die ry van hoer onderwysinrigtings in die Republiek kan inneem.

The word “universiteit” was underlined and placed in inverted commas in my copy of his prepared speech. He himself admitted these university colleges for the Bantu people were not and are not to-day full universities. Is this not in line with what the hon. member for Kensington has just said, namely that the minority report of the commission which investigated this matter said: “Let us have an interim period wherein we can build these institutions up to the stage where they will then be able to have universities of their own.” What have we had as a result of the failure to adopt that recommendation? We have wasted the past eight years.

I want to get away from the hon. member and his nonsense and I want to talk about the provision of schools by the department, particularly in and around the urban areas. We find one-third of our Bantu population in the urban areas. How many schools do we find there? What schooling facilities are there? In my own particular area in Pietermaritzburg we have on the outskirts of the city the Bantu township of Imbali. The first houses there were occupied in May of 1965, three years ago. There are presently 1,486 houses occupied with an estimated population of 11,440 people. What schooling facilities are there for the Bantu in that area? In reply to a question, the Deputy Minister said there was one lower primary school of 10 classrooms built toaccommodate 800 pupils, which at present has an enrolment of 1,200. There is a population in that township of 11,000 people, of whom at least 8,000 must be children. We can assume 4,000 are of school-going age, but only one school for 800 pupils is provided. Admittedly in the buffer zone outside the township there is a combined higher and lower primary school for 550 pupils. So we find a total provision for children within walking distance of their homes for 1,350 pupils where there is at least a potential of 4,000 children who want to go to school. Let me say these are Bantu people who are thirsting for knowledge. They are prepared to make sacrifices to get this knowledge, as I pointed out a little earlier.

An HON. MEMBER:

How many houses are there?

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

1,486. Let me go further and point out to the Deputy Minister that this township is in a so-called Bantu homeland. it is not in the white man’s land. This is why Pietermaritzburg is a border industry area. What do we find has been provided in that township? The Department of Bantu Administration and Development has provided a Bantu beer brewery, a Bantu beer and liquor outlet. They have provided a magnificent community hall. I am not arguing about that. But when we look at the magnificent structures that have been put up and when we know they have been erected at a fantastic cost, why was that money not rather spent on the provision of educational facilities? It goes further. Where do these people get their secondary education, their higher education? There is no provision for them in and around Pietermaritzburg. They have to be sent away and once again this adds to the expense, as I pointed out earlier, when they try to get some sort of education for their children.

As was pointed out by the hon. member for Berea there are only 3.8 per cent of the total number of Bantu pupils in secondary schools. Before the Deputy Minister says those are all who are capable of attaining that standard of education and this is the reason why there are so many drop-outs, let me say that an analysis of the figures of the total number of schools provided shows that out of a total of 7,222 schools only 282 were of secondary and higher status. That is the same figure of 3.8 per cent. So it is quite evident there is no further accommodation for any more pupils in the higher standards. There is no provision for education for them. There are those children who do wish to go on but who cannot afford it because they must be sent away to other schools. I know what is happening at Hammarsdale. I drew the Deputy Minister’s attention to it last year. There is a secondary school at Hammarsdale and it is supposed to serve the whole of the area from Durban to Pietermaritzburg. There is a tremendous business that has developed there, namely of boarding children who come to school. They have to live some where. They are being boarded and their parents are being charged for the boarding of their children by individuals who happen to have homes in the vicinity of the schools. Once more it is further expense for the unfortunate parents who have to pay for the education of their children.

The hon. member for Algoa, who unfortunately is not here now, criticized us for supporting a statement of Unesco that the Government was keeping the Bantu people down, and so on and so forth. I am sorry but I think this is the inference which must be drawn from the facts and figures which are presented in the report of the hon. the Minister’s department. We find that there are adequate facilities up to standard four and little beyond that. Is this a deliberate attempt on the part of the Government to try to keep those people below that standard of education? It is something which can be inferred from these figures and I should like to hear the Deputy Minister’s comments on this because this is what is being said overseas.

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION:

But we nearly doubled the number over the last ten years.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

But only up to standard four, this is the point.

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION:

No.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

Then have you doubled the number of pupils ¡beyond standard four? [Time expired.]

*Mr. G. F. VAN L. FRONEMAN:

Mr. Chairman, before I proceed to the matter to which I really want to devote my attention. I just want to say the following to the hon. member for Kensington. He must remember, when he speaks about the financing of Bantu education, that the statements as they now appear in the Bantu Education Account do not tell the complete story, because he must bear in mind that in the urban areas school buildings are provided by the local authorities. This does not appear in that Account. The local authorities incur heavy capital expenditure for the Bantu in this regard. In the Bantu areas school buildings and facilities for the Bantu are provided by the Trust. That expenditure will not appear in that Account either. He must take this into account too before he associates himself completely with the little Unesco report he quoted here with so much relish this afternoon.

I actually want to devote my attention to the matter in which I am particularly interested, and that is trade and technical training. The trade and technical training provided by the Department of Bantu Education accords with the policy of the Government to developthe Bantu’s full potential in the professions, in the trades, in the industries and in the administrations in their respective homelands for their respective national units. Their industrial and economic development must be stepped up, and the Department is therefore very well aware of having to pay special attention to trade and technical training for the Bantu. The training provided by the Department is aimed at training the Bantu for service to his own community, as I have already said. The intention is not that he should compete with the Whites in the white areas. The certificate issued to him after successful completion of such a course is valid only in Bantu areas, and not outside those areas. The object is gradually to replace the Whites who are still working in Bantu areas by trained Bantu so that those Whites can render their services in their white homeland for their own white population. It is also the policy not to establish the trade and technical schools in the white homelands, but in the Bantu homelands themselves. The products of these schools are intended in the first place for the development programme of the Bantu homelands and in the second place for the establishment of housing schemes in urban Bantu residential areas and in the townships which are being established in the Bantu areas.

Now I want to furnish a few figures. There are 28 trade and technical schools at present. Some of these institutions have a trade as well as a technical division, while in a few cases technical division are attached to ordinary secondary and training schools. The enrolment figures are as follows. Trade training is provided to 1,483 pupils, and technical training to 455 pupils, which brings the total to 1,938.

Trade training is understood to mean vocational training. The courses are mainly of a practical nature, to teach the pupils how to handle and care for tools and to process the materials concerned. The minimum entrance requirement is a standard six school-leaving certificate, and the course takes two years. I now want to read out what courses are offered, in order to give the Committee some idea of the work that is being done in these institutions.

Concrete-work, masonry and plaster-work; carpentry, joinery and cabinet-making; general and motor mechanics; electrical-work and housewiring; plumbing, drain-laying and sheetmetal-work; painting and glass-work; tailoring; leather-work and upholstery; spinning and weaving; brickmaking and baking. There is also a variety of courses for female students, namely tailoring, millinery, hairstyling and home management.

The technical junior certificate course provides for theoretical and general technical pre occupational training which can lead to employment as operators in factories or to preliminary training for artisans. A technical junior certificate course takes three years, with the standard six continuation certificate as minimum entrance qualification. The following technical junior certificate courses are offered at present: Building construction; general mechanics; carpentry, joinery and cabinetmaking; drawing and design; workshop calculations; electro-technics; radiotricians; and motor mechanics. At a few institutions the courses go through to the technical senior certificate.

There is also post-matric training in a technical direction. At Edendale, health inspectors are trained. This is near Pietermaritzburg. Surveyor’s assistants are trained at Lovedale. Watch-makers are trained at Mamelodi, near Pretoria. Sister lecturers are trained at the University College of the North.

There is also other training in a technical direction. Medical orderlies are trained at Thutamaphelo, Pietersburg. Agricultural extension officers are trained at the four agricultural colleges of the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, while the faculty of agriculture of the University College of Fort Hare offers various diploma courses.

The bon. member for Cradock pleaded this afternoon that degree courses should also be offered there. Engineering technicians are being trained at Thutamaphelo, Pietersburg, as from this year. For the time being, courses in agricultural and civil engineering are offered. With the introduction of these courses an important milestone in the training of the Bantu was reached. There are also the textile workers who are trained at the Mdantsane School of Textiles in East London at a rate of approximately 360 pupils per annum.

What is being envisaged for the future? The training of technicians and artisans must keep pace with the development of the homelands. The anticipated industrial development in the homelands and in the border areas will lead to the creation of more employment opportunities and a greater demand for trained Bantu technicians and artisans. The Department of Bantu Education is continually watching the situation, and provides more training facilities and expands existing courses as the demand arises.

At present the Department is also considering the establishment of subsidized vocational schools attached to border industries, for the training of factory workers and operators on a co-operative basis.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order 23.

House Resumed:

Progress reported.

The House adjourned at 7 p.m.

FRIDAY, 7TH JUNE, 1968 Prayers—10.05 a.m. QUESTIONS

For oral reply:

Scheme for Veld Renewal *1. Mr. C. J. S. WAINWRIGHT

asked the Minister of Agriculture:

  1. (1) How many farmers in each province have made use of the scheme for veld renewal;
  2. (2) whether he has given consideration to the possibility of extending the scheme; if so, to which districts; if not, why not.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE:
  1. (1) Transvaal, 1,019; Cape Province, 491. The scheme is not applicable to the other provinces.
  2. (2) No; the scheme was introduced for those areas where disastrous droughts occurred over a number of years and where extraordinary measures were considered necessary to reclaim the veld. Although serious drought conditions occurred elsewhere, the veld was not damaged to such an extent that it would not recover again after good rains if soil conservation measures are applied.
Emergency Grazing Areas *2. Mr. C. J. S. WAINWRIGHT

asked the Minister of Agriculture:

How many districts were still declared emergency grazing areas as at 30th April, 1968.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE:

53 magisterial districts and 77 soil conservation districts and divisional council wards were declared pasture distress areas.

Irregular Entry of Siding by Blue Train *3. Mr. E. G. MALAN

asked the Minister of Transport:

  1. (1) Whether the Blue Train recently entered a siding irregularly; if so, (a) on/at what journey, time and date, (b) at which place, (c) for what reason, (d) what was the (i) authorized and (ii) estimated aotual speed of the train and (e) what were the other particulars of the incident;
  2. (2) whether passengers, staff or equipment suffered any harm, inconvenience or damage; if so, what harm, inconvenience or damage;
  3. (3) whether steps (a) of a disciplinary nature and (b) to avoid a similar occurrence in the future have been taken or are contemplated in this connection; if so, what steps.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT:
  1. (1)
    1. (a), (b) and (c) No. Presumably the hon. member is alluding to an incident which occurred at Kraankuil station at 8.44 p.m. on 1st April, 1968, when the Blue Train from Johannesburg to Cape Town, which was required to run through the loop line owing to the fact that the main line was occupied at the time, entered the loop line at too fast a speed.
    2. (d)
      1. (i) 20 miles per hour,
      2. (ii) 35 miles per hour.
    3. (e) The main line was occupied by the load of a goods train in order to permit of the loop line, which rims alongside the station platform, being used for passenger trains to enable passengers to entrain and detrain.
  2. (2) There were no personal injuries, but the side controls of the locomotive came adrift, a battery cable was torn from a coach and minor damage caused to the track.
  3. (3) (a) and (b) Disciplinary action is being instituted against the locomotive driver.
*Mr. E. G. MALAN:

Arising out of the hon. the Deputy Minister’s reply, can he tell us whether any of the wheels of the train jumped the rails?

*The DEPUTY MINISTER:

If the hon. member has the information, why is he asking me the question?

Government Drills Operating in Cape Province *4. Mr. C. J. S. WAINWRIGHT

asked the Minister of Water Affairs:

  1. (1) (a) How many Government drills are at present in use in the Cape and (b) where are they operating;
  2. (2) (a) how many feet were drilled by Government drills in the Cape during 1966 and 1967 and (b) what percentage of the bore-holes was successful;
  3. (3) whether any delays have occurred in the operation of Government drills in the Cape during 1966 and 1967; if so, (a) at what places, (b) for how long and (c) what was the estimated cost as a result of the delays.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE (for the Minister of Water Affairs) [Reply laid upon Table with leave of House]:
  1. (1)
    1. (a) 103.
    2. (b)

District

Number of Government Drills

Albany

1

Alexandria

4

Aliwal North

1

Barkly East

1

Bathurst

1

Caledon

1

Calitzdorp

1

Calvinia

2

Carnarvon

1

Cathcart

1

Clanwilliam

2

Gordonia

10

Hay

3

Humansdorp

1

Indwe

1

Kenhardt

5

Kirkwood

1

Kuruman

7

Lady Grey

2

Mafeking

8

Malmesbury

2

Molteno

1

Mossel Bay

2

Namakwaland

8

Oudtshoorn

1

Paarl

2

Piketberg

1

Port Elizabeth

1

Postmasburg

15

Prieska

1

St. Marks

1

Stockenstroom

1

Stellenbosch

2

Stutterheim

1

Tarkastad

1

Uitenhage

1

Vanrhynsdorp

4

Vredendal

1

Vryburg

2

Worcester

1

  1. (2)
    1. (a) 1966: 295,595 feet.

      1967: 295,874 feet.

    2. (b) 1966: 41 per cent.

      1967: 39 per cent.

  2. (3) (a), (b) and (c) It will take a considerable time to supply this information in the required form, as the figures are not readily available.
*5. Mrs. H. SUZMAN.

Withdrawn.

Inspectors of Farm Labourers *6. Mrs. H. SUZMAN

asked the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development:

  1. (1) Whether any inspectors of agricultural labour have been appointed in addition to the inspector stated by him to be employed by his Department as at 5th May, 1967; if so, (a) how many and (b) where are they stationed; if not, why not;
  2. (2) (a) how many farms were inspected during (i) 1967 and (ii) the first five months of 1968 and (b) in what districts are these farms situated.
The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT:

For the hon. member’s information, the correct designation of this officer is Inspector of Farm Labourers, and the reply is as follows:

  1. (1) No.
    1. (a) Falls away.
    2. (b) There are 43 Labour Liaison Officers who also now assist with inspections of farm labourers, and they are stationed in various districts of the Republic.
  2. (2)
    1. (a)
      1. (i) By the Inspector of Farm Labourers, 523.
      2. (ii) By the Inspector of Farm Labourers, 219.

        No figures in respect of the Labour Liaison Officers are available.

    2. (b) Mainly farms on the Transvaal high veld and the Pretoria-Witwaters-rand-Vereeniging complex.
Notch Per Year Method i.r.o. Teachers’ Salary Scales *7. Mr. P. A. MOORE

asked the Minister of National Education:

Whether the notch per year method will be adopted in adjustments to new teachers’ salary scales; if not, why not.

The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDUCATION:

As the whole salary structure of teachers is still being investigated, it is not possible to furnish any information at this stage.

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

Arising out of the hon. the Minister’s reply, will he give the House the assurance that he will be prepared to urge the adoption of this system?

The MINISTER:

I could not do so at the moment.

S.W.A. Referendum *8. Mr. J. D. du P. BASSON

asked the Prime Minister:

Whether the Government intends to hold a referendum of the voters in South West Africa in regard to the proposed readjustment of financial and administrative matters between the Republic and South West Africa.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOUTH WEST AFRICA AFFAIRS (for the Prime Minister):

No.

Photos Taken of Notice Boards at University of Natal by Police *9. Mr. W. T. WEBBER

asked the Minister of Police:

  1. (1) Whether members of the police force photographed any notice boards on the campus of the University of Natal in Pietermaritzburg recently; if so, (a) on what date, (b) to which branch of the force did the policemen belong and (c) (i) under whose instruction and (ii) for what purpose were the photographs taken;
  2. (2) whether any charge is contemplated; if so, under what law will the charge be framed;
  3. (3) whether he will make a statement in regard to the matter.
The MINISTER OF POLICE:
  1. (1) Yes.
    1. (a) 30.5.1968
    2. (b) Uniform Branch.
    3. (c)
      1. (i) On his own initiative.
      2. (ii) In appreciation of student wit in advertising a rugby match between the university and police as follows:

“ … It had to happen— What?

With student unrest in many parts of the world it simply had to spread to Pietermaritzburg eventually and on Friday the 31st May, 15 students of the U.N.P.— I repeat “U.N.P.”—not the “U.P.”— will do battle with 15 heavily armed and legged police of the Durban Police Force, the local police having been annihilated in a previous encounter.

Where?—Woodburn, Friday, 31st May, 2.15 p.m. Student support will be appreciated…”

The rest of the question falls away.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

Arising out of the hon. the Minister’s reply, may I take it that no charge is contemplated.

The MINISTER OF POLICE:

That is an extremely foolish question.

Water in Poultry Carcasses *10. Capt. W. J. B. SMITH

asked the Minister of Agriculture:

  1. (1) Whether a technique of allowing poultry carcasses intended for sale to absorb water with a view to increasing weight, has come to his notice; if so, by what percentage has the weight been known to be increased in this manner;
  2. (2) whether he will take steps to prevent this technique being practised.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE:
  1. (1) Yes, the matter has recently been brought to the notice of my Department with allegations that some poultry processors allow up to 20 per cent of water to be absorbed by poultry carcasses prior to freezing.
  2. (2) My Department is at present investi gating the matter.
Investigation into Pension System and Social Assistance Schemes *11. Mrs. H. SUZMAN

asked the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions:

  1. (1) Whether the inter-departmental investi gation into the pension system and the social assistance schemes for the various race groups, referred to by him on 9th June, 1967, has been completed: if so,
  2. (2) whether any increase in pension scales has been recommended; if so, for which race groups.
The MINISTER OF SOCIAL WELFARE AND PENSIONS:

After careful perusal of my speech of 1967, I find that no mention was made of an inter-departmental investigation.

Postal Deliveries in Durban Area *12. Mr. M. L. MITCHELL

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs:

  1. (1) Whether there is a postal delivery in (a) Durban North, (b) Glenashley township and (c) La Lucia township; if so, (i) how many deliveries per day in each area and (ii) in which year was the delivery in each area started; if not, why not.
  2. (2) whether consideration has been given to extending the postal delivery services in any of these areas; if not, why not.
The MINISTER OF POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS:
  1. (1) (a), (b) and (c) Yes; (i) one delivery per day and (ii) Durban North—August, 1934, Glenashley—June, 1958, and La Lucia—September, 1966.
  2. (2) Mail delivery services are reviewed periodically and extended when necessary and possible.
*13. Mr. G. N. OLDFIELD—

Reply standing over.

Deferred Telephone Applications *14. Mr. E. G. MALAN

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs:

  1. (1) (a) What is the latest date on which it was possible to estimate the number of outstanding applications for telephones and (b) what was the estimated number on that date;
  2. (2) (a) to what extent does this number differ from the figure which he gave on 10th May, 1968, and which was based on statistics available on 31st March, 1968, and (b) to what factors is the difference attributable.
The MINISTER OF POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS:

(1) and (2) The number of deferred applications for telephones cannot be estimated. Actual statistics are compiled quarterly and the most recent date in respect of which figures are available, is the 31st March, 1968.

*Mr. E. G. MALAN:

Arising out of the hon. the Minister’s reply, does he have any indication whether the shortage has increased or decreased?

*The MINISTER:

But I said it could not be estimated.

Cultural Affairs: Staff Member’s Plans to Damage Newspaper Printing Press *15. Mr. E. G. MALAN

asked the Minister of Police:

  1. (1) Whether a newspaper report that a member of the Department of Cultural Affairs was involved in a plan to blow up or damage the printing press of a newspaper has come to his notice;
  2. (2) whether he has had the matter investigated; if so, with what result; if not, why not.
The MINISTER OF POLICE:
  1. (1) Yes.
  2. (2) Yes, investigations have not yet been concluded.

Reply standing over from Tuesday, 4th June,1968:

Classification of Hotels

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE replied to Question *20, by Mr. W. V. Raw:

Question:
  1. (1) (a) How many hotels have up to the closing date (i) applied for, (ii) been granted and (iii) been refused classification and (b) how many applications are still under consideration;
  2. (2) how many applications for extension of time (a) have been received, (b) have been granted, (c) have been refused and (d) are still under consideration.
Reply:
  1. (1)
    1. (a)
      1. (i) 1,273
      2. (ii) 638
      3. (iii) 386
    2. (b) 249. A further 150 applied for and obtained permission to submit their applications for classification between June and November, 1968.
  2. (2)
    1. (a) 376.
    2. (b) 133.
    3. (c) 15 of which 11 were authorized to renew their applications during October, 1968;
    4. (d) 228.

According to departmental records there are 1,551 licensed hotels in the Republic. 138 of these hotels did not apply for classification or extension.

For written Reply:

1. Mr. L. F. WOOD—

Reply standing over.

Official Residences for Commissioners-General 2. Mr. E. G. MALAN

asked the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development:

  1. (1) (a) How many official residences are available for Commissioners-General, (b) how many of them are rented, (c) where is each situated, (d) what is the name of each residence, (e) how many rooms are there in each and (f) who is the present incumbent in each case;
  2. (2) (a) what is the total cost to date of each residence and (b) what amount of this cost represents (i) the value of the ground, (ii) buildings and annexes apart from the commissioner’s own dwelling place and (iii) furniture, fittings and other movable property;
  3. (3) what is the estimated annual cost of the upkeep of each residence;
  4. (4) (a) how many persons are employed at each residence and (b) what is the race designation of each.
The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT:
  1. (1)
    1. (a) 7.
    2. (b) 1.
    3. (c) Sibasa, Turfloop, Mafeking, Bethlehem, Nongoma, Umtata and Oshakati.
    4. (d) Officially the official residences have no names but some of the building complexes, which include office accommodation and residences for officials, have names which are recognized officially, namely at Nongoma known as Linduzulu, at Turfloop known as Leruleng and at Oshakati known as Elundu.
    5. (e) 7 rooms and accommodation for visitors consisting of 3 rooms, except in the case of Bethlehem where a 5 roomed flat is used.
    6. (f) The Commissioners-General, in order of paragraph (c): Dr. M. D. C. de Wet Nel, Dr. W. W. M. Eiselen, Dr. I. S. Kloppers, Mr. S. F. Papenfus, Mr. J. J. Boshoff, Mr. J. H. Abraham and Dr. J. Olivier.
  2. (2)
    1. (a) and (b) (i) and (ii) except for the accommodation being rented at Bethlehem, each building complex was planned and erected as a unit on South African Bantu Trust land, which was not valued separately. The information in respect of (a) and (b) (i) and (ii) is therefore not readily ascertainable.
    2. (b) (iii) as follows, in the order of 1 (c): R27,167; R15,177; R16,433; R15,710; R15,132 and R12,732.
  3. (3) R200.
  4. (4) (a) and (b) The Department is not concerned with the provision or employment of staff at the residences and the required information is therefore not available.
Bantu Police Reservists 3. Mrs. H. SUZMAN

asked the Minister of Police:

(a) In which townships have Bantu police reservists been enrolled and (b) how many are at present enrolled in each township.

The MINISTER OF POLICE:

(a)

(b)

Meadowlands

122

Moroka

271

Orlando

50

Statistics in Respect of Telephone Equipment 4. Mr. E. G. MALAN

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs:

(a) What is the latest date for which statistics are available in respect of telephone equipment as described on page 26 of the Report of the Postmaster-General for 1966 ’67, and (b) what was the number of (i) automatic telephones, (ii) manual telephones and (c) farm and multiparty lines on that date.

The MINISTER OF POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS:
  1. (a) 31st March, 1968.
  2. (b) (i) 907,578, (ii) 229,229.
  3. (c) 102,398.
Tribal, Regional and Territorial Authorities Established Under Bantu Authorities Act 5. Mr. T. G. Hughes

asked the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development:

  1. (1) How many (a) tribal, (b) regional and (c)territorial authorities have been established under the Bantu Authorities Act;
  2. (2) how many (a) chiefs and (b) headmen (i) have been appointed or recognized by his Department and (ii) receive salaries;
  3. (3) (a) how many (i) chiefs and (ii) headmen have been deposed since 1960, (b) what were the reasons for the depositions and (c) how many were involved in each category of reasons.
The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT:
  1. (1)
    1. (a) 429.
    2. (b) 47.
    3. (c) 5.
  2. (2)
    1. (a) (i) and (ii) 547.
    2. (b) (i) and (ii) 375.
  3. (3) (a), (b) and (c) The information is not available. There is a file for each chieftainship and headmanship and as no special record is kept of chiefs and headmen who have been deposed, more than 900 files must be perused to obtain the information required by the Honourable Member.
6. Mr. T. G. HUGHES—

Withdrawn.

Amount Collected in Respect of General Tax, Hospital Levies, etc. 7. Mr. T. G. HUGHES

asked the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development:

  1. (1) What amount of general tax, excluding the additional general tax, was collected in the Republic, excluding the Transkei, during the last year for which figures are available;
  2. (2) (a) how many Bantu in the same area paid the additional general tax during the same year and (b) what was the total sum collected;
  3. (3) what sums were collected from Bantu in the same area during the same year by way of (a) hospital levies, (b) rates or levies imposed by Bantu authorities, (c) tribal levies and (d) other local taxes.
The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT:
  1. (1) R10,283,339—during the financial year 1967/68.
  2. (2)
    1. (a) 370,358.
    2. (b) R1,018,102.
  3. (3)
    1. (a) R70,116.
    2. (b) and (c) rates or levies, tribal levies and other monies paid to the Department on behalf of Bantu authorities and tribes cannot readily be identified separately, but the total amount is R1,621,500.
    3. (d) R315,695 in terms of Act No. 41 of 1925.

The above figures are subject to adjustments when the books are finally closed.

Central School Levy Fund for Bantu 8. Mr. T. G. HUGHES

asked the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development:

What sum is it estimated that Bantu persons in urban areas paid in the form of additions to their rentals for the erection of lower primary schools during the last year for which figures are available.

The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT:

There is no central school levy fund; monies collected by local authorities are retained by them in their local Bantu Revenue accounts.

Amount Raised by Bantu School Boards and Committees for Erection and Maintenance of Schools 9. Mr. T. G. HUGHES

asked the Minister of Bantu Education:

What sum is it estimated that Bantu school boards and committees in the Republic, excluding the Transkei, raised towards the erection, maintenance and running costs of schools during the last year for which figures are available.

The MINISTER OF BANTU EDUCATION:

Approximately R1,500,000.

10. Mr. T. G. HUGHES—

Reply standing over.

11. Mr. T. G. HUGHES—

Reply standing over.

Fund for Provision of Welfare Services in Bantu Areas 12. Mr. T. G. HUGHES

asked the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development:

  1. (1) (a) What was the balance in the fund created in 1959 for the provision of welfare services in Bantu areas at the end of the 1966-’67 financial year and (b) what was the estimated balance as at 31st March, 1968;
  2. (2) (a) on what services was expenditure incurred during 1967 and (b) in which areas.
The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT:
  1. (1)
    1. (a) R1,322,239.
    2. (b) R1,320,913.
  2. (2)
    1. (a) The provision of better living conditions for and the care of aged and handicapped Bantu and assistance to unproductive Bantu resettled in the Bantu homelands.
    2. (b) Ciskei, Northern Areas, Western Areas and Bantu areas in Natal.
Labour Tenants and Squatters 13. Mr. T. G. HUGHES

asked the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development:

  1. (1) How many labour tenants (a) were registered at the end of 1967, (b) were found redundant during 1967 and (c) were resettled during 1967;
  2. (2) how many squatters (a) were living on farms at the end of 1967 and (b) were resettled during 1967.
The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT:
  1. (1)
    1. (a) 37,132.
    2. (b) 169.
    3. (c) 3,029.
  2. (2)
    1. (a) 77,194.
    2. (b) 5,437.
Extent of Black Spots 14. Mr. T. G. HUGHES

asked the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development:

  1. (1) What was the total area in each province of black spots as at the 31st December of 1966 and 1967, respectively;
  2. (2) what area of black spots was (a) expropriated and (b) exchanged for other land during 1967.
The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT:
  1. (1) At 31st December, 1966: Transvaal: 27,861 morgen 235 sq. roods.

    Orange Free State: 6,665 morgen 279 sq. roods.

    Natal: 45,682 morgen 190 sq. roods. Cape Province. 28,203 morgen 360 sq. roods.

    At 31st December, 1967:

    Transvaal: 27,594 morgen 240 sq. roods.

    Orange Free State: 6,665 morgen 279 sq. roods.

    Natal: 41,330 morgen 190 sq. roods. Cape Province: 26,643 morgen 411 sq. roods.

  2. (2)
    1. (a) 242 morgen 154 sq. roods.
    2. (b) None. Land is bought by the South African Bantu Trust and resold to Bantu. Exchange transactions were not entered into.
Bantu Persons in Cape Peninsula and Western Cape 15. Mr. T. G. HUGHES

asked the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development:

(a) How many Bantu person are at present resident in (i) the Cape Peninsula and (ii) the remainder of the Western Cape and (b) how many of them are contract workers.

The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT:
  1. (a)
    1. (i) Figures for 1966, which are the latest available, 114,000.
    2. (ii) Figures not readily available.
  2. (b) Figures for 1965, which are the latest available, 131, 414.
S.A.B.C.: Appointment of Aliens on Staff 16. Mr. E. G. MALAN

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs:

  1. (1) Whether any portion of the licence which he has issued to the South African Broadcasting Corporation refers to the appointment of staff members who are not South African citizens; if so, what is the wording of the portion concerned;
  2. (2) whether any alteration has been effected to the licence in this connection since 1st January, 1964; if so, what alteration and (b) for what reason;
  3. (3) whether certain categories of staff are excluded from the provision; if so, (a) which categories and (b) for what reasons.
The MINISTER OF POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS:
  1. (1) Yes; the Corporation may not, without the specific approval of the Postmaster-General, have anybody in its employ who is not a citizen of the Republic of South Africa, where such a person is directly concerned with the technical operation and maintenance of the Corporation’s broadcasting stations, i.e. premises where radio transmitting apparatus have been installed excluding studio or programme equipment.
  2. (2) Yes; (a) the previous stipulation was replaced which read that the Corporation may not employ anybody who is not a citizen of the Republic of South Africa at its broadcasting stations except with the specific approval of the Postmaster-General and (b) to facilitate administrative work and procedures.
  3. (3) Yes; (a) all categories of personnel not falling under (1) and; (b) to eliminate cumbersome procedures regarding the employment of orchestra members and other non-technical staff, and because the S.A.B.C., unlike other radio station users, is a large public body which, to the satisfaction of the Postmaster-General, can exercise control over the radio conduct of such personnel.
National Education: Identity of Staff Member Involved in Plan to Damage Newspaper Printing Press 17. Mr. E. G. MALAN

asked the Minister of National Education:

  1. (1) What steps has he taken to ascertain the identity of the member of his Department involved in the alleged plan to blow up or damage the printing press of a newspaper;
  2. (2) whether he has reported the matter to the police; if not, why not.
The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDUCATION:
  1. (1) None.
  2. (2) No; as this is a function of the party against whom the alleged planned wrongs were directed.
Cultural Affairs: Staff Member Involved in Plan to Damage Newspaper Printing Press 18. Mr. E. G. MALAN

asked the Minister of the Interior:

  1. (1) Whether a newspaper report that a member of the Department of Cultural Affairs was involved in a plan to blow up or damage the printing press of a newspaper, has come to his notice;
  2. (2) whether he has had the matter investigated; if so, with what result; if not why not.
The MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR:
  1. (1) Yes.
  2. (2) The investigation of alleged crimes is not a function of my Department.
19. Mr. E. G. Malan—

Reply standing over.

Replies standing over from Tuesday, 4th June, 1968

Investments in Industries in Border Industrial Areas

The MINISTER OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS replied to Question 5, by Mr. W. T. Webber.

Question:

What was the total or estimated total investment (a) as at 31st December 1966, and (b) during 1967 by (i) the Industrial Development Corporation and (ii) private enterprise in industries in each of the proclaimed border industrial areas and (iii) the State in the provision of services in these areas.

Reply:

As the furnishing of the information in the form requested by the hon. member may publicize aspects of the private business affairs of some of the undertakings concerned, the totals of the commitments by the Industrial Development Corporation in all the border areas are furnished. In regard to investments in services, it is, unfortunately, impossible to break up the amounts involved, as requested by the hon. member, as these services are in most cases provided on a regional basis. Against this background, therefore, the reply is as follows:

(a) (i)

(b) (i)

Total commitments, including housing for key personnel

R46,982,474

R6,020,808

(a) (ii) R178,300,000

(b) (ii) R65,200,000

As previously explained in this House, these figures are based on estimates, which are adjusted from time to time in the light of information becoming available.

(a) (iii)

(b) (iii)

Bantu housing

R10,800,000

R7,800,000 (as at 30/9/67)

Services in connection with Bantu housing

R12,200,000

R5,300,000 (as at 30/9/67)

Water schemes, including schemes with indirect advantages to border areas

R35,000,000

R11,000,000

Loans to Municipalities for railway sidings

R385,000

nil

Development of industrial townships

R2,770,000

nil

These particulars supersede the figures furnished opposite the corresponding items in part (1) (c) of my reply to question No. 13 of 11th April, 1967.

Export of Wattle Bark and Wattle Extract

The MINISTER OF FORESTRY replied to Question 19, by Mr. D. E. Mitchell.

Question:
  1. (1) (a) What are the names of exporters who exported wattle bark and wattle extract from South Africa during the past three years and (b) what quantity of (i) bark and (ii) wattle extract was exported by each exporter annually;
  2. (2) what quantity of (a) bark and (b) wattle extract was retained for use within the Republic during this period.
Reply:
  1. (1)
    1. (a) Wattle Extract Manufacturers: The Natal Tanning Extract Co., Ltd.

The Natal Chemical Syndicate Ltd.

The Comec Mimosa Extract Co., Ltd.

The Union Co-operative Bark & Sugar Co., Ltd.

The Hodgson Extract Co. (Pty.) Ltd.

Wattle Bark Millers:

Lion Bark Milling Co. (Pty.) Ltd.

Sweco (Pty.) Ltd.

Bark Sales (Pty.) Ltd.

Pan African Wattle Corporation Ltd.

Searles Ltd.

A.J.J. Wattle Co.

Union Co-operative Bark & Sugar Co., Ltd.

G. D. Burger.

(i) Bark (tons)

(ii) Wattle Extract (tons)

1965

1966

1967

1965

1966

1967

The Natal Tanning Extract Co. Ltd.

36,960

39,801

38,233

The Natal Chemical Syndicate Ltd.

13,803

14,245

13,543

The Comec Mimosa Extract Co. Ltd.

6,666

7,583

6,581

The Hodgson Extract Co. (Pty.) Ltd.

7,425

29

Lion Bark Milling Co. (Pty.) Ltd.

3,918

2,814

2,551

Sweco (Pty.) Ltd.

1,373

1,207

818

Bark Sales (Pty.) Ltd.

1,459

881

1,122

Pan African Wattle Corporation Ltd.

2,490

1,753

1,874

Searles, Ltd.

1,476

1,341

1,027

A. J. J. Wattle Co

1,074

1,050

1,121

G. D. Burger

1,274

862

1,108

Union Co-operative Bark and Sugar Co

5,300

4,264

4,312

6,911

8,127

8,239

TOTAL

18,364

14,172

13,933

71,765

69,785

66,596

(2)

1965

1966

1967

(a) Wattle extract

5,262 tons

4,875 tons

5,228 tons

(b) Bark

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE *The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT:

Mr. Speaker, with your leave I should like to inform hon. members what the business of the House will be for the next week or two. I have a pleasant announcement for all those members who have a zest for work. As from Tuesday we shall sit in the evenings as well, and from Monday the 17th we shall sit in the mornings and in the evenings until the end of the Session. We hope that the House of Assembly will complete its business on 21st June and that Parliament will adjourn on Saturday, 22nd June. We shall continue dealing with the Votes until all of them have been disposed of. This will probably be on Tuesday evening or fairly early on Wednesday, and then we shall continue with legislation. The Appropriation Bill will not be brought up before Monday week. That will be the last general discussion. We shall proceed with the other legislation, except for the following, which will have to stand over: Notice of Motion No. 2 and Orders of the Day Nos. 2, 3, 6, 8, 14 and 16. They will have to stand over until next year. There are one or two other Bills which still have to be introduced and which have to be dealt with during this Session. One of them deals with pollution of the sea. In addition there are the usual financial measures which still have to be introduced, but I think we shall be able to finish by Friday, 21st June, if hon. members are not very talkative.

NATIONAL SUPPLIES PROCUREMENTBILL *The MINISTER OF COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT:

Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the hon. the Deputy Minister of Economic Affairs, I move as an unopposed motion—

That Order of the Day No. 6 for to-day —Second Reading,—National Supplies Procurement Bill [A.B. 83—’68]—be discharged and the Bill withdrawn.

Agreed to.

FIRST READING OF BILLS

The following Bills were read a First Time:

General Law Amendment Bill.

Sea-shore Amendment Bill.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—CENTRALGOVERNMENT (Resumed)

Revenue Vote 46,—Bantu Education: Special Education, R342,000; Loan Vote Q,— Bantu Education, Rl,600,000; and Estimates of Expenditure from Bantu Education Account [R.P. 9—’68], R32,300,000 (continued):

*The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND EDUCATION:

I want to thank hon. members for having discussed this Vote so calmly. It goes without saying, of course, that if I am in charge of a Vote, matters will proceed very calmly. I want to thank hon. members on this side of the House, such as the hon. member for Rissik, the hon. member for Heilbron and the hon. member for Algoa, very sincerely for the way in which they dealt with the matter of Bantu education. As regards the two main critics, the hon. members for Kensington and Houghton, we had from them what we have from them year after year. As far as Bantu Education is concerned, these two hon. members are still living in the colonial era. They have not learned anything as yet. and they are still clinging to systems which have been proved wrong throughout the whole of Africa, and as far as Bantu Education is concerned, I have never seen two more “verkrampte” members than them.

Before dealing with the individual points which were raised, I want to avail myself of this opportunity to thank Mr. Van Dyk, the Secretary for Bantu Education, who will retire one of these days, very sincerely for what he has meant to me personally during the two years I have been working with him. I recall that shortly after the appointment of certain Ministers and Deputy Minister a cartoon appeared in The Cape Times depicting caricatures of the new occupiers of certain portfolios. I recall that the Minister of Defence was looking down the barrel of a rifle. The Minister of Sport was playing with his yo-yo. The Minister of the Interior was wearing a fez, and in a bottom corner I was sitting with my curly hair, my protruding ears and bare feet, my toes well spaced from one another, and I was reading a book. The book was entitled “How to Educate the Bantu”, but I was holding the book upside-down. After having worked with Mr. Van Dyk for two years, I can assure hon. members that that book no longer is upside-down.

*An HON. MEMBER:

But no more than that.

*The DEPUTY MINISTER:

I have learned a great deal from Mr. Van Dyk. He was a very patient and brilliant tutor, and I think that he will be the first to admit that in me he had a very patient and brilliant pupil. Today I know a great deal more about Bantu Education. I want to thank him for that and I want to wish him a very peaceful but not an entirely unproductive retirement. I think quite a number of writings will flow from his pen to the benefit of education in general, and to the benefit of Bantu Education in particular.

Then I also wish to welcome the new Secretary for Bantu Education, Dr. Van Zyl, and extend io him my heartiest congratulations. In him we have an eminent educationist, a man who gave evidence for us in the World Court with brilliant success. I am convinced that our co-operation will be of the most cordial and that Bantu Education will continue to make the same rapid progress under his leadership, as under the leadership of Mr. Van Dyk, as it has been making for the past 15 years.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) furnished certain figures here in regard to What the Bantu, according to him, had to pay for education. I do not know where he got those figures from. He advocated free Bantu education. Bantu education is virtually free, but he produced certain astronomical figures, and I should like to know from him where he obtained those figures.

*Mr. W. A. CRUYWAGEN:

I want to take a photo of him after the Prime Minister’s second reply.

*The DEPUTY MINISTER:

I just want to tell him what the Bantu do pay in point of fact. For board and lodging, when they live in hostels, they pay R60 per annum. White children pay the same fees as they do. but they pay at a considerably higher rate. For the school fund, Bantu secondary pupils pay Rl per term, lower primary pupils 10 cents per term and higher primary pupils 30 cents per term. The hon. member wilt know that white pupils pay much more than this.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

Are these general?

*The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

Yes, these are more or less general. As far as school books and stationery are concerned, free books are not provided in the secondary schools, and the reason for this is that we have limited funds. I do not want to go into the merits of the financing of Bantu Education. The fact of the matter is that we have limited funds at our disposal, and experts on Bantu Education have come to the conclusion that they would be able to utilize those funds to the greater benefit of the Bantu if they did not provide free books in the secondary classes. Books cost Bantu pupils in Std. VIII approximately R3 per annum, and the costs increase to approximately R30 per annum in matric. As far as primary schools are concerned, the pupils receive their books free of charge and the costs of stationery are quite minimal.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

All primary school pupils get their books free?

*The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

Yes, in primary schools they do.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

Does that include exercise books?

*The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

No, they have to buy stationery such as slates and slate-pencils, but the costs are quite minimal. The Department provides schools with a large number of books. In the case of primary schools the amount came to nearly R17,000 in 1962-’63 and increased to R264,000 in 1967-’68. In hard cash the Department gave R6,799 in 1962-’63 and R92,500 in 1967-’68. In addition other books are also donated by the Department to Bantu schools. The number of books increased from 795,000 in 1962-’63 to 929,000 in 1967-’68, and the amounts increased from R220,000 to R246,000. Therefore we are doing our duty in this respect.

*Mr. J. D. DU P. BASSON:

Is there any provision for bright pupils in secondary schools who cannot pay?

*The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

At a later stage I shall deal with the question of bursaries and everything which is made available to these people.

*Mr. P. A. MOORE:

Is this amount R220,000 for the two million children?

*The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

YES.

*Mr. P. A. MOORE:

That is approximately 10 cents per child.

*The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

I have not worked it out yet, but I am quite satisfied with the progress which is being made. [Interjections.]

*The. CHAIRMAN:

Order! This is no time for arguing across the floor of the House.

*The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

I think that what the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) really wanted to advocate was not free education for the Bantu, because they have virtually free education, but compulsory education for the Bantu, which is, of course, the ideal but something we have been unable to consider up to now for practical and very obvious reasons.

Then the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) spoke of the few facilities in the school at Mbali. Well, there is a shortage at Mbali. There is one primary school and the higher primary pupils attend the nearby school at Slangspruit, which is a combined higher and lower primary school. There is a shortage of two lower primary schools, two higher primary schools and one secondary school. One lower primary school will be built before long and a higher primary school is being planned. There is an Indian school in the vicinity and before long, when the Indians move, that school will become available for secondary classes.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

Can you give me any indication when?

*The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

No, it is difficult to say.

The hon. member for Cradock pleaded for a full-fledged faculty of agriculture at the University College of Fort Hare. Classes in agriculture are being given at Fort Hare and the present establishment in this respect consists of one professor, one senior lecturer, one white farm-manager and one Bantu farmmanager. The college has 600 morgen of land on which it keeps 220 high-grade milch cows and on which provision is made for pig and poultry divisions. Intensive crop-farming is being carried out on 50 morgen of land under irrigation. In January, 1966, an inter-departmental committee recommended the establishment of a full-fledged faculty of agriculture at the University College of Fort Hare to the Cabinet, and the Cabinet has approved this. Financially the planning of this faculty makes provision for R283,000 for academic purposes, R27,000 for farm-buildings and R40,000 for scientific apparatus and equipment. The establishment will be increased at an additional cost of plus-minus R60,000 per annum. The posts for the staff who would have been required in 1967, were advertised immediately, but as a result of the general curtailment of Government expenditure this service had to be held in abeyance. The Department of Bantu Education is proceeding with this planning, it is proceeding with the preparatory work, particularly as regards buildings and other capital works, in the hope that things may take a turn for the better. Under present circumstances it will unfortunately not be possible to complete the buildings before 1970,but as the hon. member can see, we are hard at work as regards the establishment of such a full-fledged faculty of agriculture.

The hon. member for Kensington complained that the annual report came out too late. I would like to point out to him that the Higher Education Department’s report is also for 1966 only and that the reports of the Provincial Departments are only for 1965. I do not think therefore that we are doing too badly.

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

I mean our Department of Education. We had the 1967 report early this Session.

The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

At any rate, I do not think we are doing too badly. I give the hon. member our assurance that we will do our best to get the report out earlier.

Then the hon. member referred to a speech made by me at Cradock where I am supposed to have said that the Bantu cannot absorb more education than they are getting at the moment. That was misunderstood by very many people. What I actually did say was that the Bantu community could not absorb more than they were getting at the moment. So that there could be no misunderstanding in the future I wrote down my explanation which reads as follows: It is accepted practice in education planning that the provision of educational facilities should bear a direct relationship to the ability of the community to absorb trained manpower issuing from the schools and also to its ability to make use of facilities that exist in the schools. It is therefore important that the rate of expansion should not be over-rapid but should keep pace with the ability of the Bantu community to absorb and to use the products of the education system. This does not imply that there is any desire to hold back the development of the Bantu, and the 12 per cent compound interest yearly growth in secondary education in recent years should be sufficient proof of this, but that educational growth and development should be placed on a sound basis. Until existing facilities—this is the crux of the reply —are used to the full, and this is particularly true of certain sectors of vocational, technical and senior secondary education, it is not reasonable to expect further expansion in these particular fields at this stage. I think the hon. member who is an educationist will agree with that.

The hon. member for Houghton asked why evening schools were closed in Cape Town and Johannesburg. Sir, we were very patient with those people. We tried to assist them as far as possible. Year after year, we gave them an extension of time and eventually we had to put our foot down and order the closing of those schools. But that does not mean the end of evening classes for the Bantu. We thought it advisable to have those classes where the Bantu find themselves in the evening, and that is in the Bantu townships.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

They cannot get there.

The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

They can get there if they ask for permission. It is not difficult to get permission. It is not difficult in the case of genuine teachers who want to go into the area and with whom the school board is satisfied, but certainly not teachers who want to go into the Bantu townships and agitate amongst the Bantu, and there are quite a few of those people.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Does the hon. the Minister not know that it is dangerous for women to travel alone in the townships at night? Many of these teachers are women. Will he not admit that they are doing very good work?

The. CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member may not make a speech now.

The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

Sir, if there is any real urge on the part of these people they can get male company. We can give them police protection if they want to give evening classes but then it must be under the Bantu school boards in the townships. And if they are eager, and do not want to acquire everything by way of least resistance, then they will go there. However, I am quite satisfied that some of these people are not as keen as they pretend to be to educate the Bantu. [Interjections.]

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, is the hon. member for Rus-tenburg allowed to call me “an agitator”?

*The. CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member for Rustenburg must withdraw that.

*Dr. P. BODENSTEIN:

I withdraw it, Mr. Chairman.

The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

I think it will serve a good purpose to review at this stage the fantastic progress in regard to Bantu education since the passing of the Bantu Education Act in 1953. I should like to draw the attention especially of the hon. member for Houghton to this fantastic progress, because she seems to want everything to be perfect from the beginning; she wants the standard of Bantu education to be the same right from the start as the standard of white education. The fact that we have made more progress than anywhere in Africa, whether under the British, or Belgian, or French governments, counts nothing with her—absolutely nothing.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

But South Africa is the richest country in Africa.

The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

Nothing which has been done by dedicated Whites for the Bantu people within the past 15 years can show more spectacular progress than the programme of Bantu education initiated by the Bantu Education Act of 1953. To-day four outof every five Bantu between the ages of seven and 21, can read and write; four out of every five Bantu children in South Africa are at school, and long before the year 2000, illiteracy as defined by Unesco, will have been wiped out completely amongst the Bantu in South Africa. The chief instrument which forged to-day’s enlightened order for Bantu education in South Africa was the Bantu Education Act of 1953. It was Dr. Verwoerd, whose memory will still be revered for long amongst the Bantu, who shaped that instrument and supervised its passage through this Parliament—“A new education deal for the Bantu”, was what Dr. Verwoerd called it. Let us look at the progress we have been able to make. Let me give hon. members certain figures in this connection. The total number of Bantu pupils at school in 1955 was 1,014,000; in 1966, 11 years later, the number was 2,039,000—more than double the figure of 1955.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

How many in secondary schools?

The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

I am coming to that. The number of pupils in primary schools increased from 970,000 to 1,959,000. For the information of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) I should like to report that the number of pupils in post-primary schools in 1955 was only 43,600 and in 1966, 80,900—nearly double. Let me tell the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) that he ought to be ashamed of himself to make the suggestion, as he did, that as a matter of policy this Government wanted to keep the Bantu from having secondary education.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

You did not listen to what I said.

The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

It looks as if a little Bantu education will not do that hon. member any harm. It was Dr. Verwoerd who said, “One may remain Bantu through the Bantu languages as medium of civilization and one’s whole community will in this way reach a higher spiritual, social and economic level”. This sums up the far-sighted ideal of Bantu education. It seems incredible that only 15 years ago Bantu education was controlled and provided for mainly by missionary efforts of some 44 different religious denominations. Of course, they were heavily subsidized by the Government. While I have the highest regard and admiration for what these missionaries did for the education of the Bantu, it cannot be denied that certain mistakes were made, not as a result of lack of knowledge so much as in the process of trial and error. As a result of a process of trial and error many mistakes were made by these missionaries and some misguided things done. The Government was absolutely right to insist upon a more pragmatic form of Bantu education. This was belatedly approved by Bantu education experts of 28 African countries who met in Tananarive, the capital of Malagasy. At that conference they emphatically rejected European orientated educational systems which were in operation until then in their respective countries. The basis for Bantu education in South Africa was the Eiselen Report. Of this Dr. Verwoerd said—

The general aims of the Bantu Education Act are to remedy the difficulties by transforming education for Natives into Bantu education; to transform a service which benefits only a section of the Bantu population into a general service which will help in the development of all the Bantu.

This is precisely what the Bantu Education Act has attained since its passing 14 years ago. This Act put an end to all attempts to westernize only individual Bantu students and to introduce instead a concerted process civilizing the Bantu peoples as a whole and as entities. This new education system retains and cultivates all that is of value in the cultures of the various Bantu people of South Africa, including their respective languages. Of course, pupils study English and Afrikaans but they are taught in their mother tongue, in one of the seven distinctive Bantu languages, at least for the first five to eight years at school.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Why did Matanzima revert to English?

The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

You had better ask him. I have no doubt that he eventually will come back to mother tongue instruction. Mother tongue instruction has been a major factor in the promotion of literacy amongst the Bantu and in the development of the expressive powers of their respective languages. Educational theory and practice were adapted to the material with which the teacher had to work, i.e. a Bantu child from a Bantu community, shaped by a Bantu culture, and speaking a Bantu language learned from a Bantu mother. That is the material they have to work with and that is the material they have to develop.

I should just like to enumerate the basic principles laid down by the Eiselen Commission for the reform of Bantu education, principles which have all more or less been adopted by the Bantu Education Act. These principles briefly are: The establishment of a central government department for the control and administration of Bantu education to secure efficient and thorough co-ordination of planning, budgeting and administration designed to develop sound social institutions and adequate schools; the placing of increasing emphasis on the education of the mass of the Bantu to enable them to co-operate in the evolution of new social patterns and institutions for the Bantu; the co-ordination of education with a definite and planned policy for the development of the various Bantu societies; the efficient use of the available—and I admit limited—funds; the provision of education with a definite Christian character; the production of literature of functional value in the various Bantu languages; mother tongue instruction; Bantu teaching staff to be used to the maximum; to make the schools as Bantu in spirit as is possible; as well as to provide employment for qualified Bantu teachers.

Bantu parents, and this was done for the first time in our history, have a share in the control and the life of their schools. I will presently deal with the number of these Bantu parents actively assisting to-day in the controlling of these schools. Provision is made for vocational education, coupled with economic development. These revolutionary provisions of the Bantu Education Act did not go unchallenged. Years were to elapse before the Bantu Education Act was (fully recognized for what it is, a piece of enlightened legislation that holds out a fully rounded education for every Bantu of South African birth and the enshrinement of a system of education, which in every way is the envy of other states in Africa, which have a very long road to travel before they can give to their subject what we are giving to the Bantu people in South Africa. The foundation of the Department of Bantu Education was firmly laid, and I wish to pay tribute to a corps of devoted, hard-working officials, inspired by the example of their late chief, Dr. Verwoerd. The late Dr. Verwoerd sent out these officials as friendly ambassadors to explain to the churches proposals for the take-over of their institutions as Government schools. New procedures were devised slowly, and not always without error, in the place of divergent (procedures formerly followed by each of the four provinces.

I wish to point out, however, that there is a wrong impression that mission schools were summarily taken over. Church bodies controlling schools in Bantu homelands and in the Bantu townships were given the choice of two courses of action. They could hand over the schools immediately to the State and be compensated for the buildings and the equipment, or they could maintain control on a basis of progressively decreasing subsidies, that would finally cease after a period of about four years. It is interesting to note that the choice of immediately handing over the schools was folowed by 44 churches, and only two preferred to keep them for another period of about four years.

It should also be stressed that church mission schools are neither suppressed nor prohibited in South Africa. Religious denominations which choose to retain control of and to finance their own schools, can apply for permission to register a new school on the understanding, of course, that they must supply all the necessary funds. It is not that the State take-over of these missionary schools means and end to religious instruction. On the contrary, religious instruction was made compulsory for the first time in all Bantu schools.

To give hon. members an idea of the progress we have made during the last years, I want to give the following information. When the department took over Bantu education in 1954, there were only 5,791 Bantu schools. These figures were given adequately by the hon. member for Heilbron, but I think it would be a good thing to repeat them. In 1965 there were 8,810. In 1954 the number of teachers was 21,561, which increased in 10 years’ time to 34,042. In 12 years’ time many more qualified than previously.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

How many qualified altogether?

The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

The progress made means nothing to this hon. member. She now wants to compare the qualified teachers at the Bantu schools with qualified teachers at European schools. I want to point out to her, as was so brilliantly done by the hon. member for Riissik, that the progress made by Bantu university colleges is far faster than ithose made by the old Victoria College, which is now the University of Stellenbosch, and by the University of Pretoria. But she wants everything on a golden plate immediately. She knows she is completely unrealistic about it.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

You are far too pleased with yourself.

The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

In 12 years’ time the number of Bantu secondary pupils has nearly doubled. The percentage of Bantu children at school increased from 10 per cent of the Bantu population in 1954 to 16 per cent. Ail Bantu schools have been classified since 1954 into six main categories. I only wish to mention community schools, State Bantu schools, farm schools, mine and factory schools, hospital schools and scheduled schools. I do not need to go into particulars about every one of them, except to point out the following with regard to farm schools, because there is a great interest in them. Farm schools are established by farmers for the children of their employees. These schools are managed by the farmer or his appointed representative, but they are financed by the State. A very interesting matter which I only discovered a few weeks ago, is that primary education is provided for Bantu children confined to hospitals for a period of at least three months. There are to-day 39 of these hospital schools in the Republic, and the Department of Bantu Education subsidizes the teachers’ salaries and the pupils’ textbooks. It is a fact that the Bantu public has realized the opportunities offered by the policy of separate development, and to-day it is no longer fashionable, at least among the Bantu, to criticize Bantu education. They welcome it.

Now hon. members know how Bantu education is financed. R13 million is paid from Central Government funds, as well as all the direct Bantu taxation without any deduction whatsoever.

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

Why is it lower this year?

The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

Is it lower? I have not seen the latest figures, but I know that over the last period of five years it has increased from something like R5 million to well over RIO million. I think the estimate was that this year it will be in the vicinity of R12 million.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

May I ask a question? May I ask the hon. the Deputy Minister if some of the taxes collected in the Republic are not handed over to the Transkei for their Education Department?

The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

No, not to my knowledge. Those taxes are used for Bantu education here without any deductions. We are receiving the Bantu’s taxes. We are making collection more and more efficient, and it will increase. All indications are that these taxation increases will be in the vicinity of R500,000 to R1 million per year.

The changed attitude of the Bantu people to Bantu education became apparent when membership of the committees and of the school boards was regarded as a much soughtafter privilege. The whole-hearted support we got from these people to serve on advisory boards and school committees was most encouraging. Just to show the hon. member for Houghton how these people appreciate this system of education. I wish to point out that we have to-day no less than 80,000 Bantu parents serving on school boards, school committees and other organizations dealing with education. If ever there was proof that Bantu education is being accepted by the Bantu people and that they are taking a keen, personal interest in the progress and growth of their schools and in the education of their children, then it is this number of 80,000 Bantu parents who are now actively taking part in education. I would say that nothing has done more for the benefit of Bantu education than introducing these Bantu parents to assist in the schooling of their children. I just want to say that 15 per cent of the total Bantu taxation in the Republic is being paid over to the Transkei. The hon. member for Houghton, was therefore correct.

I do not know why the hon. member for Houghton does not like comparisons with other African countries. She says we are the wealthiest country in Africa. Lesotho. Botswana, Swaziland, Malawi and part of Ghana were under the British Government for very many years. She will not say we are a wealthier country than Great Britain. It is no use the hon. member pulling faces at me. These are facts. I say we in this country did much better than Britain did in Africa; we did much better than France did in Africa; we did much better than Belgium did in Africa. Whether she likes it or not, I am going to make these comparisons because they show that as far as Bantu education is concerned, we have the proudest record on the whole continent of Africa, including those parts that were under Western governments.

An HON. MEMBER:

What about Rhodesia?

The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

Yes, I will give the figures for Rhodesia. I now wish to give this House the number of pupils expressed as a percentage of the total black population of the country. In South Africa it is the highest, namely 14.8 going up to 16. For the benefit of the hon. member who is so talkative there now, the Rhodesian figure is 14.1. I am not referring to the hon. member for Transkei, I have peace with him this morning. I was referring to the hon. member for North Rand. In Ghana the figure is 13.3, in Zambia 9.4, in Nigeria 8.3, in Liberia 6.6 and in Ethiopia 1.4. Ironically enough Liberia and Ethiopia took us to the World Court because they alleged we did not look after our non-white people. As far as the number of school-age Children who do attend school is concerned, we have in South Africa by far the highest figure, namely 81.3 per cent. Those are the latest figures, and the figures are still rising. In Liberia it is 54.2 per cent and in Somalia 4.8 per cent. But these figures mean nothing to the hon. member. For us, however, they mean a lot. We are not superhuman and that is why we compare what we do with What is done in other countries. Moreover, our standards are continually rising. In 1966 no less than 59,113 Bantu children obtained their St. VI certificates, 9,917 passed St. VIII and 871 obtained their Matriculation certificate. The respective pass rates were 84.4 per cent, 71.75 per cent and 56.3 per cent. This is a considerable improvement on the 1955 figures. I may point out that the matriculation examination papers are the same for both Bantu and white children.

The hon. member for Bezuidenhout is not here now, but he asked me about financial assistance given to Bantu children. Annually about 2,000 Bantu pupils receive bursaries valued at about R87,000 awarded by Government departments, municipalities and private bodies. About 1,000 Bantu students at universities and university-colleges receive outright bursaries valued at a minimum of R 102,000 and R64,000 for bursary loans. I prefer to have them all as bursary loans rather than outright bursaries, and we will work in that direction.

I want to conclude in regard to this aspect by saying this. As far as primary and secondary Bantu education is concerned, this Government and this department have a proud record second to none on the entire continent of Africa. It is second to none even if we go further afield than the continent of Africa. We are improving continually and I think it is a proud record not. only for this Government but for South Africa as a whole.

Now I should like to say a few words in brief about the university training of theBantu. There was a great deal of bitterness when the Separate Universities Bill was passed and the main charge was that that merely constituted an attempt on the part of the Government to rob the Bantu of a proper university training. Hon. members will recall what a bitter struggle preceded the passing of that Bill. Is there anyone to-day who wants to repeat those allegations? I want to make this statement. To-day the university training of the Bantu, both as regards quality and quantity, is much better than anything anywhere else in Africa and a thousand times better than anything we had prior to the application of that legislation.

*Mr. P. A. MOORE:

Better than the old Fort Hare?

*The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

Yes, I think so. I want to pay tribute to the principals, to the staff, the professors and the lecturers. White and Bantu. For the information of the hon. member for Kensington, who really ought to know better than anyone of us, we have to-day not only one or two Bantu professors, but quite a number of Bantu professors and a large number of Bantu lecturers. Our policy is aimed at achieving a situation not in the too distant future when the staff of the university colleges, which are going to become full-fledged universities before long, will consist entirely of Bantu. We are making fairly rapid progress in that direction. I want to pay tribute to those white and Bantu professors and lecturers.

At this point I should like to say a few words about the principal of Fort Hare, Professor Ross. He is retiring at the end of this month. I personally want to pay tribute to Professor Ross not only for the work which he has done at Fort Hare but also for the missionary work which he did in the past. Fort Hare has been very fortunate to have a man like Professor Ross to guide them. He has developed Fort Hare into a university college of which we may be rightly proud to-day. The hon. the Minister has asked me to pay tribute to Professor Ross on his behalf and to convey to him our thanks for everything which he has done in the fields of missionary work and education in South Africa. May he be happy, healthy and richly blessed in his retirement.

I should also like to pay tribute to the Bantu students. Here and there we have had a spot of trouble, but on the whole the behaviour of the Bantu students at the three university colleges has been exemplary. I attribute this not only to their sense of responsibility but also to the discipline maintained by the teaching staff. I paid visits to all the institutions and I was more than pleasantly surprised by the relationship existing between white and Bantu members of the teaching staff and between the teaching staff and the Bantu students. I believe that that relationship can hardly be any better under the circumstances.

As hon. members know, the Cabinet has approved of these university colleges becoming full-fledged universities. The legislation will, I believe, be introduced next year. I should also like to avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate the University of South Africa, the institution under which these university colleges still fall, on having succeeded in maintaining such high standards at those institutions and to thank the University of South Africa for the good work it has done. The estimates for these institutions for the financial year 1967-’68 are approximately R2 million, excluding capital expenditure.

I want to conclude by pointing out the increase in the number of students at these university colleges. In 1960 365 students attended these university colleges, and in 1966 the figure was 1,161 and in 1967 1,313. The hon. member for Houghton will probably be delighted to hear that an estimated number of more than 6,000 students will be at these institutions by 1975. Fortunately she will no longer be here to make a fuss about that.

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

How many have matriculation exemptions?

*The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

I shall try to find out for the hon. member.

In addition I just want to point out what the rate of growth was prior and subsequent to the establishment of separate university colleges. The number of Bantu students at white universities and at Fort Hare increased from 365 to 619. between 1948 and 1959, a period of 11 years, i.e. an increase of approximately 70 per cent. This represents an annual increase of 6.4 per cent. From 1959 to 1966, a period of seven years, the number increased from 619 to 1,302, an increase of 109 per cent, which gives one an annual increase of 15.6 per cent as against an annual increase of 6.4 per cent before. With these facts before us, no one should tell me that this Department of Bantu Education has not worked wonders during the past 15 years. I challenge any other department or government to achieve in a period of 15 years what we have achieved in the field of Bantu education as regards primary education, secondary education, the bringing in of Bantu parents into educational matters and university education. I think this is a proud record, and although it may perhaps be too much to expect of the hon. member for Houghton not to disparage this constantly, I think that the rest of South Africa, if they want to take an objective view in this regard, can be very proud of these achievements, and for those achievements I want to pay the highest tribute to the Secretary for Bantu Education and his staff. I think I have now replied to more or less everything.

Mr. P. A. MOORE:

I wanted to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister two questions, but to one he gave the reply towards the end of his speech. That was in regard to the establishment of non-white universities. The other is in regard to the statement that has beenissued to the effect that the control and administration of Bantu education would now be handed over completely to the territorial authorities.

*The DEPUTY MINISTERS:

I now have the information which the hon. member requested in connection with the number of students who have university exemptions. Ouit of the total number of 1,305 students, 874 have such exemptions.

As regards the final question, yes, that is the plan. In due course six departments, will be handed over to the territorial authorities. I am now speaking under correction but I think that is correct. One of those departments will be the Department of Education. I may just mention that they will have the equivalent of a Minister of Education in all the different territorial authorities, but they will be assisted in all those departments, and also in the Department of Education, for as long as may be necessary by a white secretary with whom we shall provide them until such time as the Bantu have received sufficient training to enable them to take over the secretarial work from the Whites. Therefore the hon. member’s information is correct. It is very difficult to say how rapidly this will happen. At the moment we are engaged in this task. This is being developed. I do not want to say that we shall commence with that as early as this year. Perhaps we shall. But we are engaged in transferring education to them.

Votes and Estimates of Expenditure from Bantu Education Account put and agreed to.

Revenue Votes 47,—Justice, R14,500,000, and 48,—Prisons, R21,435,000

*The MINISTER OF JUSTICE:

Mr. Chairman, I apologize for my adopting the rather unusual course of rising first to discuss a Vote, but I am doing so for a good reason, namely as a result of a statement made by my colleague during the discussion of the Coloured Affairs Vote, when he said that I would make a statement in regard to liquor matters under this Vote.

Hon. members will recall that in the course of that discussion reference was made to the consumption of liquor and to the habits disnlaved by Coloureds in white areas after they had consumed their liquor. There were such w’1d doings that the hon. the Minister was obliged to sound a note of warning. I thought it proper to put the following to the Committee. I have it here in writing, and it reads as follows—

  1. 1. Tn general the present state, of affairs in regard to the availability of liquor to the various population groups is as follows—
    1. (a) Subject to prevailing conditions and to the Act on-consumption privileges, where they exist, are accessible to everybody; and
    2. (b) it is possible for all groups to obtain liquor in containers for purposes of private consumption. At present nobody in any race group, except blacklisted persons in that group, has therefore been excluded from the privilege of obtaining liquor.
  2. 2. The way in which liquor is being made available for on and off-consumption purposes, differs from group to group and from province to province, and generally speaking the present state of affairs is as follows—
    1. (a) The Bantu:
      1. (i) In all the provinces the Bantu are excluded from on-consumption privileges in white residential areas, but in areas which have been set aside as or are Bantu residential areas, it is possible for the Bantu to avail themselves freely of these facilities where they do exist;
      2. (ii) it is possible for them to obtain liquor in containers for consumption away from the licensed premises, provided that it may not be drunk in public places.
    2. (b) The Coloureds and the Indians:

      Here the position differs from province to province.

      1. (i) In the Free State the possibility of on-consumption does exist for these race groups at licensed premises, but in practice there are no such places in white residential areas;
      2. (ii) In the Transvaal there are a few places where liquor may be supplied to these groups at licensed premises in white residential areas;
      3. (iii) In Natal provision has been made for on-consumption for these two groups at a considerable number of licensed premises in white residential areas; and
      4. (iv) in the Cape there are between 400 and 600 such places in white residential areas, and they are rather the rule than the exception.
    3. (c) The Whites:

      As far as my Department is aware there is no provision for on-consumption by Whites in the residential areas of the Bantu or those of other races, with the exception of one hotel which borders on the Coloured area at Athlone. A stop will be put to this as soon as the necessary alternative provision can be effected.

  3. 3. The Government will not permit—
    1. (a) on-consumption privileges to be made available to Whites in non-white residential areas; or
    2. (b) on-consumption privileges to be made available to Bantu in white residential areas.

      This state of affairs obtains at present, and I am not aware of any inconvenience experienced by either of these two groups on account of this.

  4. 4. In view of this it follows logically that there cannot be any reason either why onconsumption privileges to Indians and Coloureds cannot be confined to their own residential areas in order to make the position in respect of all race groups a uniform one in the whole of the Republic. Therefore I now state here for everybody’s information that this objective is now going to be carried into effect, and that on-consumption for race groups in one another’s areas will be terminated.
  5. 5. Now the following question arises: What has been done in this regard? I am not taking the Bantu into account in this connection, because their cases do not present problems at present. Therefore, where I refer to nonWhites from now on, I mean the Coloured and Indian groups.
    In 1962 it was provided that Coloured and Indian associations could obtain liquor licences for on and off-co n sumption purposes. This provision has been on the Statute Book for almost six years, and I must accept that the opportunity that was afforded has by now been exploited fully. Over this period of approximately six years 35 liquor concerns have been established in such areas throughout the country—27 in Coloured and eight in Indian areas. Sixteen of these business concerns were financed by the Coloured Development Corporation to an amount of approximately R693.344. According to a survey another 52 such concerns could possibly be established successfully in such areas throughout the whole of the Republic. It is doubtful whether the Coloured Development Corporation and therefore the Government should involve themselves more deeply in the liquor trade, and consequently the financing of new liquor concerns should preferably be derived from other sources.
  6. 6. The on-consumption of liquor by one race group in the residential area of another remains a source of annoyance, for unfortunately the consequences of the consumption are not confined to the licensed premises. It manifests itself in the streets and on public conveyances and leads to offensive actions, bad conduct disturbances, threats, assault, and so forth. The Government is determined to put a stop to the on-consumption of liquor by various race groups in one another’s residential areas as quickly as possible but also with as little disruption as possible. For this purpose ll have the support of my colleagues the Ministers of Community Development, of Coloured Affairs and of Indian Affairs as well as that of the Government as a whole.
  7. 7. The question is: What action shall we take in order to achieve this aim?
    Firstly, for a considerable time already those granted new liquor licences in white areas are being prohibited from supplying non-Whites with liquor for on-consumption purposes. In non-white areas the same conditions are being imposed in respect of Whites. This evil will therefore not be allowed to continue.
    Secondly, in the General Law Amendment Bill, of which the first reading was taken this morning. I request powers which will enable me to do the following: (i) To prohibit on specific or identified licensed premises the supply of liquor for on-consumption purposes to non-Whites; (ii) to prohibit at all licensed premises within a defined area the supply of liquor for on-consumption purposes to nonWhites. In terms of the legislation I envisage, these prohibitions can be imposed by virtue of the fact that undesirable conditions exist or persist at specific premises, or by virtue of the fact that adequate facilities are already being provided in a nearby non-white area, where the persons concerned may enjoy their on-consumption privileges. I shall only be able to exercise the envisaged powers after the National Liquor Board has investigated the matter and given a hearing to interested parties.
  8. 8. I am very well aware of the fact that licensees who may be affected, will maintain that their established rights are being interfered with, and that they will go bankrupt if they were deprived of the revenue they derive from on-consumption sales to Coloureds and Indians. It would be a bad day if one were to admit that a hotel for the white group finds justification for its right to exist in the drinking habits of a section of the non-white population. If this is in fact the case, such an hotel might as well close down. But to a large extent the Government has already made alternative provision for this possible loss of revenue by granting off-consumption privileges to hotels complying with classification requirements. Those that have not been classified, have themselves to blame if they do not share that privilege as yet. As soon as they comply with the requirements, they can be granted that privilege, and the fact that they are lagging behind is, therefore, their own fault. Of course, I must concede that some hotels have been enjoying off-sales privileges for many years.
  9. 9
    1. (a) In view of the fact that, since the insertion of section 100 sex during 1962. only 28 Coloured liquor concerns have been established, one must inevitably come to the conclusion that the Coloured community as such is as yet unable to produce from amongst their own ranks persons who can come forward and be of assistance in removing this problem from the white area at a rate which one would like to see.
    2. (b) It is also reasonable to accept that a particular Coloured or Indian group area will not necessarily require the same number of individual liquor facilities that exist for such Coloureds or Indians in the white area in question.
    3. (c) In order to encourage the establishment of adequate facilities in Coloured and Indian group areas, and to accommodate at the same time licensees who will be justified in objecting to the curtailment of their so-called established rights, the following is being envisaged: (i) the National Liquor Board, in consultation with the Department concerned and the local authorities, will make a survey of the further need for liquor distribution points that exists in Coloured and Indian residential areas; (ii) the National Liquor Board will submit a report to the Minister and make recommendations on the way this need is to be met, with due regard to the interests of existing licensees who will be affected by the envisaged measure whereby Coloureds and Indians will be prohibited from enjoying on-consumption privileges in white areas.
      I foresee the possibility of licensees being allowed by way of consortiums under permit to exercise on-consumption privileges in nonwhite residential areas until such time as the Coloured and Indian groups themselves are able to provide the facilities and to take them over later on. I do not want to anticipate this matter, but I want to state frankly that white licensees must accept that through these envisaged transitional measures they will not acquire any permanent or lasting trading rights in the non-white residential areas concerned. It will merely be a transitional measure for the purpose of achieving an object. As soon as the board has submitted its report, this House will be approached for the necessary legislation, if any.
  10. 10. As regards purchases for off-consumption purposes, the following problems are being experienced at present: Bantu or other groups drink the purchased liquor where it was bought, or in that vicinity, and leave the containers lying about, and thus all sorts of undesirable conditions are created. At other off-consumption points again, one sometimes finds people congregating, which is another source of annoyance. At present there are powers in terms of which the supply of liquor for off consumotion purposes to certain groups may be prohibited in a specific area, and in terms of which a specific licensee may be prohibited from supplying liquor for off-consumption purposes to a specific class or classes of persons. Should it become necessary to take steps in terms of these provisions, because a certain class or group could not restrain their desire for liquor until they reached their homes, or because the licensee did not exercise proper control over his customers, action will be taken. Licensees of off-sales permises might as well take note of this. However, the major problem in this regard is that the moment such a prohibition is imposed generally, the liquorrunner will immediately appear on the streets again. In the meantime the police will implement as strictly as possible the provisions of section 166 (i)bis in terms of which the evil of drinking from the bottle in or near any road, street, open space, etc., is being prohibited, so as to prevent undesirable conditions from arising. The congregation of people at such premises will also receive their attention.

By these means the Government hopes to put a stop to sources of annoyance which result from the supply and consumption of liquor, although it will in this process nevertheless have due regard to the interests of all groups and persons affected by it.

Mr. M. L. MITCHELL:

The hon. the Minister has made a very imptortant statement concerning the consumption and distribution of liquor. He has indicated that he is going to take the power to effect these changes in the General Laws Amendment Bill, which has been read a first time already. We will not, as the hon. the Minister will appreciate, be able to discuss his statement during this Vote. We feel that we should rather discuss it properly when we have the provisions of the Bill before us and we have had time to study the implications of the statement together with the Bill. I do not propose therefore to follow the hon. the Minister in his statement, but we are pleased that he has made this statement before the second reading of the General Laws Amendment Bill comes before us.

The matter I should like to deal with is the statement in the report of the Secretary for Justice for 1967 about the shortage of staff in his department, especially qualified professional staff, so much so that great difficulty is experienced in opening up new offices. On page 1 of his report the Secretary says—

This applies mainly to the smaller centres where full-time magistrates’ offices are not yet in operation. Full-time offices can only be established at considerable expense to the State, since this involves the provision of offices and residential accommodation, furniture, stores and, last but not least, the staffing of such offices. In view of present inflationary conditions, it is imperative to restrict expansion to what is absolutely essential. Added to this, there is a serious shortage of staff at the moment, which makes it very difficult to staff even the existing offices adequately.

Then there follow these significant sentences—

The shortage of staff qualified to take charge of magistrates’ offices has by no means been remedied and the position will certainly remain unchanged for a considerable time to come. The stage has consequently been reached where the establishment of further new offices will be undertaken only in highly exceptional cases. Even centres which without doubt qualify for full-time service will not necessarily be provided with such a service and will have to manage with existing facilities until such time as there is an appreciable improvement in the conditions referred to above.

This is, indeed, a very grave situation. While one appreciates that a similar position has to be faced by many State Departments to-day, such a shortage in the Department of Justice has more serious consequences than in the case of any other department. There is, for instance, the position of professional assistants to the attorneys-general. The Minister himself has admitted that it is very difficult to get sufficient properly qualified persons to take on the jobs of State advocates and senior State advocates. And one is not surprised that this is the case when one looks at the salaries these people are paid. It must be remembered that a man cannot appear for the attorneygeneral unless he has been admitted to the Bar. Now we find that such a person acting as professional assistant to an attorney-general reaches the salary scale of only R3,600 after 10 years’ service. Therefore, a man who is qualified to practice at the Bar has to have another 10 years’ service to reach a salary of R3,600. So, it is quite clear why the Minister is having difficulty in filling these posts. However, this at least can be remedied and the Minister is indeed remedying it by allowing attorneys-general to brief independent members of the Bar to prosecute on their behalf.

But the real difficulty lies with magistrates. Now, we all know how many cases have to be remanded in our criminal courts. As a matter of fact, I know of cases which have been remanded for up to five months by our regional courts, where the more serious cases are heard. These courts have so many cases on their rolls that once a case has been remanded it is very difficult to say when it is going to come up again—it might not be before two months, or more. We have tried to obtain information about the number of cases in which there were undue delays due to the shortage of staff, but the Department could unfortunately not furnish us with this information. But from experience one knows that these delays must be considerable. Now, a delay in justice, especially in criminal matters, can amount to a negation of justice, even to the infliction of an injustice where the person charged is found not guilty. I want to ask the Minister to consider whether the time has not come for magistrates to be placed on a completely different basis from that of other members of the service. After all, magistrates are not ordinary civil servants. As far as their judicial work is concerned they are not subject to any instructions. They themselves are the lords and masters of their courts—absolutely independent and make any decision they like. Even the hon. the Minister of Justice has no power to tell them what to do. But the duties they perform are the duties of an arm of the State. We must remember that a person cannot become a magistrate unless, in the first place, he has attained certain qualifications and, secondly, has had a considerable number of years’ service within the Department. By the time he gets to the position of magistrate he is, consequently, a fairly senior person already. But when one looks at the salaries of magistrates one is again not surprised that there is a shortage of magistrates, because 45 per cent of magistrates have as their highest salary only R4,200, before deductions. For 72f per cent, including the 45 per cent, their highest notch is R5,100, and that after a considerable period on the Bench. These are senior magistrates. The Department has indicated that the shortage of magistrates is going to continue, but in the meantime the cases coming before magistrates are increasing and with that the delays are getting worse. So, something very drastic has to be done if this situation is to be remedied at all. The difficulty of the hon. the Minister is that it is going to be difficult to get a qualified man into the service on account of the unrealistic salaries which are paid, unrealistic when compared with what he can earn in his profession. The other difficulty the Department has to face is the difficulty of training people who come into the service without qualifications. This question of legal education, of qualifying personnel of the Department to take a place on the Bench, is a serious matter. The Department has put forward certain views in its report on what could be done about this. Because I shall not have time to deal with this now in detail, I intend leaving it until later. However, it is part and parcel of the problem of our Bench, never forgetting that it is the ordinary magistrate, apart from regional magistrates, who has to try 90 per cent of all the cases that come before our courts. [Time expired.]

*Mr. G. F. VAN L. FRONEMAN:

Mr. Chairman, I believe that the Minister himself will reply to the hon. member for Durban (North), because he touched upon a very topical matter indeed. I think we all agree that this shortage of staff in the Department of Justice is very alarming. There are various factors apart from the salary factor, which the hon. member mentioned. I may tell him that the question of salaries is not one which is peculiar to the Department of Justice. It is a matter with which all the Departments of the Public Service are having difficulty, i.e. that the technical person who is qualified, who satisfies all the requirements and is trained, can obtain better remuneration outside the PublicService than inside it. All the Departments are in fact having difficulty with this problem. It is a very difficult problem. I do not want to propose any radical changes, but I also believe that we must begin to look in another direction for a solution to this matter. An ambitious man who goes to work in the Department, should also be able to progress to the highest rung. Let us consider the question of the magistrates. I have pleaded for that in this House before. Apart from the fact that all kinds of administrative matters which actually have nothing to do with his legal knowledge, especially in the smaller offices, are loaded onto the magistrate, he is a kind of wailing wall to whom all kinds of difficulties are brought. He is the link between the Government and the public in that particular place. I do not want to go into that now. The topic is a stale one. But I want to suggest that the time is drawing near when we cannot make the magistrate’s highest rung merely that of regional magistrate. Once a magistrate has been promoted to regional magistrate, what is the next rung? I think that he is in a cul-de-sac. He cannot progress further than regional magistrate. By way of exception there are a few who are appointed to the head office of the Department and can then progress to the position of Secretary for Justice. But is this the correct way of granting promotion? Must a person’s ideals be limited in this way? There are many countries, and this is the radical matter which I should like to mention, where the judiciary is a career in which a person can advance from the bottom to the top. From the judiciary of the lower courts one can advance to that of the higher courts. In South Africa we have unfortunately adopted the British practice as the be-all and end-all, namely that the office-bearers of a judiciary should specifically be appointed from the Bar. I want to emphasize that I do not regard this as the correct approach to the matter. The small group of privileged persons who can reach the judiciary of the higher courts and of the Appeal Court, are appointed from the Bar. Is this the correct approach? Our Chief Justice was in the Department of Justice, and I want to say to you that we cannot have a better and a more brilliant man as chief justice. But he never had a private practice and was never a member of the Bar. There are a few other instances of persons in the Appeal Court who are as brilliant, for example Mr. Justice Botha. He is another person whom I want to mention who comes from the Department. But I am now actually pleading for the magistrates, for promotion opportunities for the district magistrate as well. The possibilities of the matter should be investigated.

But I actually want to come to the other matter which is discussed in detail by the Secretary for Justice in his report, i.e. the matter of legal training in the Republic. Ten years ago I introduced a motion in this House in which I pleaded for the abolition of Latin. At that time I received very little support in this House and outside. I am very glad of the definite attitude now being adopted by our present Secretary for Justice. I believe that he has now once and for all given us the correct guidance. No man can become an advocate to-day unless he has taken a one-year course in Latin at a university. For that he must have passed a preliminary examination of matriculation standard. In other words, if he has never taken Latin before, he needs at least two years to pass that course. It remains a fact in South Africa that there are very few of our Afrikaans-medium schools which teach Latin. I am now not even talking about the country districts, because as far as the country districts are concerned I know of no more than five schools which still teach Latin. In the country districts of the Free State I know of only two schools which still teach Latin. I may be wrong, because I did not make such a thorough survey. The requirement of Latin in this career is closing the door in the faces of many of our Afrikaans children, especially in the country districts. There are many of them who want to take up this career, but they come up against this requirement of Latin. What the wonderful value of Latin is, heaven alone knows; I do not. No professor at any university could give me an explanation as yet. I know of one university—and I will not mention its name—which, as regards the Latin requirement, puts persons through in a jiffy and trains many Ll.B. students in this way. I do not want to mention this university by name, but I know which one it is. Many students are trained in this way. Unfortunately this university is not one to which Afrikaans boys and girls can have recourse.

In the first place I want to point out that this first-year course in Latin is a course in what we call classic Latin. It is the Latin that was used 500 years before the Corpus Juriswas written. The Corpus Juris was written in a form of Latin which came 500 years after that classic Latin. Now we have to force this Latin down children’s throats because they want to take up law. I know a Judge who is in the judiciary to-day. After he had passed his first year in Latin, he came to the professor and asked him—he almost failed it because of that, but he nevertheless obtained a distinction-—who this man “Rex” was who was involved in so many cases. So small is the value of Latin; it is only a stumbling block. One needs no Latin at all to acquire legal knowledge to-day. Virtually all the Latin sources which we still use to-day have been translated into Afrikaans or English. If one cannot obtain the necessary facts in those two languages, one can obtain them in German.

The Corpus Juris was translated into German many years ago and this translation has also been used a great deal by our students. What must we do with this dead language, Latin? The argument is advanced that Latin is so beneficial to the development of one’s logic. The grammar of any language is logical if one studies it, and there is no need to haverecourse to Latin. I want to plead that serious attention be given to this matter. The most radical step will be to amend the law so as to abolish Latin as a requisite subject. This will, however, be the simplest course. I realize that there is a great deal of opposition and because I am not allowed at this stage to plead for the law to be amended, I want to plead that serious attention be given to the recommendation of the Secretary. [Time expired.]

Mr. L. G. MURRAY:

Mr. Chairman, I want briefly at the outset to react to one or two matters to which the hon. member for Heilbron referred. The first is that of the almost “dead-end occupation”, as he put it, of our magistrates. I do not think his proposal will cure the frustrations that might be felt in those quarters. I think it can be more correctly, more effectively and more properly be done by adjusting the status and the remuneration of the senior grade magistrates.

The hon. member spoke about Latin also. I do not want to initiate an academic debate on the value or otherwise of Latin as a subject. Great minds have differed on that matter. The practical aspect of the matter is the extent to which Latin has been dropped in the schools of this country. One often finds a young man wanting to enter the legal profession after passing his matriculation examination, but he has not done Latin because of the choice of subjects he made at his school four or five years earlier. I believe that is a practical aspeot which, apart from any academic considerations, leads one to accept that Latin is an obstacle to recruitment into the legal profession.

I want to refer to one or two other matters. I believe that the way in which our statutes will be published in future as far as it affeots our Department of Justice and the administration of justice needs some consideration. Henceforth I believe the annual publication of Acts of Parliament in volumes of statutes will be replaced entirely by the loose-leaf consolidated system which is made available to those who want it. In other words, Acts of Parliament as enacted will in future only be published in their entirety in the Government Gazette or in the annotated volume, if not amending legislation. If it is amending legislation then the only place where it will be published in its entirety will be in the Government Gazette. There will be no annual publication of these statutes as passed by Parliament.

One accepts immediately that the loose-leaf annotated publication is of use to the general public. It is of value to the person who is in a hurry to know what the law is on a particular subject. But I consider that is not sufficient and will be a handicap and cause considerable delay and work to the Bench and to practitioners. We know that much of our law is in faot created by judgments of our courts, and a decision of a court is based upon a statute as it existed at the time of the decision. An amendment to a particular section on which a court judgment is based may be brought about because the legislature sees fit to bring about a different set of circumstances to those relied on by the court, or for other reasons. If a student, a practitioner or a judicial officer takes out an annotated volume he does not have the legislation on which the decision was originally based and the reasoning or the comparison is not easily to hand, he cannot compare the new enactment to the old enactment so that he can evaluate the decision of the court.

I do not expect the hon. the Mitnister to give a final reply to this matter at the moment, but from my own inquiries I do believe there are some misgivings. Members of the judiciary, members of the law societies and others are not quite happy about it. I would be grateful if the Minister would cause this matter to be investigated before we allow too long a period to elapse if it is found necessary that there should be the annual publication of the statutes as well as the annotated issues. A year can be caught up with, but if this matter drags along for two or three or four years and it is then decided to reintroduce the old system, practical difficulties may be encountered. I do not think the costs involved will be so much that they will outweigh the practical advantages of having the annual publication.

There are a few matters I want to deal with arising out of the report of the Department of Justice. I see there is a desire to erect prefabricated courtrooms in areas where there is not a permanent court. Whilst prefabricated buildings have their use as residential premises and for other purposes, I wish to utter a word of warning about using them for the purpose envisaged in the report. I do not think there is a saving in costs. I have had experience of such structures of the size of a courtroom and ‘there are tremendous problems in connection with air-conditioning and maintaining proper conditions within the building, even if it is used only occasionally, especially if used by numbers of people coming and going, as happens in court. I think it would be unwise to provide buildings of this nature for the purpose which the Department has in mind. Other Departments have utilized these structures and I do not think there is a financial saving when buildings of that size are air-conditioned and equipped for court hearings.

Then I think the method of presentation of the various tables in the report can be improved upon. When looking at tables one likes to have an easy reference to the past. We find particulars of staff on page 12 of the report. These deal with resignations, vacancies, new appointments, and so on. I wonder whether we could not have the relevant figures for two or three years side by side so that onecould at a glance see whether there has been an improvement or a deterioration in the position. Comparative figures are given in respect of certain aspects of the report but they are not given there. On page 17 we find the subheading “Work studies, Supreme Court cases handled, Attorney-General’s Department, Masters of the Supreme Court, Estates handled, the State Attorney’s activities”, as well as the general activities of the magistrates’ courts. I think there again it would give one a ready picture of an increase or decrease in the burden being borne by one or other section or division. I suggest that such comparative figures be incorporated in the Report.

Finally I want to return to the matter of magistrates. I want to make a plea to the Minister in regard to two posts in particular. I refer to the chief magistrates of our legislative capital, Cape Town, and our administrative capital, Pretoria. I think the Minister will agree these two gentlemen have a particular status in protocol and among the representatives of foreign states. They are involved in a multitude of activities of which a large number are of a social nature. I believe they are often embarrassed because, first of all, they have no official residence. I know the difficulties about providing official residences for at least those two very highly placed magistrates. Any entertainment they have to do is done on a private cost basis. There is no provision for them as there is for heads of departments for official entertainment. I am sure you will agree with me, Sir, that these facilities should be available to the chief magistrate of Pretoria and I certainly feel they should be available to the chief magistrate in Cape Town, where they mix with foreign representatives who are assembled in large numbers during the Parliamentary session. [Time expired.]

*Mr. A. L. SCHLEBUSCH:

The hon. member for Green Point will pardon me if I do not follow up on what he said, since he specifically directed his questions at the hon. the Minister. I should like to say a few words of appreciation in connection with the Department of Prisons, a department which in my opinion has in an unobtrusive way struck a great ¡blow ¡for South Africa in the past two years in connection with the international smeer campaign which is being conducted against our country, and unfortunately not only internationally, but a campaign which is also evident in our country.

Last year the Human Rights Commission of the U.N. made atrocious accusations against our prison system in South Africa, and inter alia they appointed an ad hoc work group, which brought out a report. The Department replied to this work (group immediately, and. inter alia, summarily rejected the findings of this work group and undertook to draw up and make available a detailed monograph which would present the true facts to the world. The Department once again invited the International Red Cross Committee to come and investigate the true conditions in our prisons, and as we know, two members came to undertake this task on behalf of the Red Cross. I have no doubt that our system once again left these gentlemen of the Red Cross with the impression of a modern and civilized system. It is no wonder that our system should leave that impression, because this Department has for a long time now both in letter and in spirit observed the provisions of section 2 of our Prisons Act, which provides that a prison is not only a place for keeping certain persons in safe custody, but that it should also, as far as possible, apply such treatment as can lead to the correction and rehabilitation of the prisoners.

In addition we are also indebted to the hon. the Minister for quoting very impressive figures in a recent speech to repute the false statement that the alleged high crime rate was due to hatred and tension between White and non-White. Allow me just to quote one set of figures which the Minister mentioned. These are figures for the year ended 30th June, 1966. In that year 3,940 persons were prosecuted on charges of murder. Those perpetrated by Whites upon Whites total 52; non-Whites upon Whites, 35; Whites upon non-Whites, 48; and non-Whites upon non-Whites, 3,805.

*An HON. MEMBER:

Are those assaults?

*Mr. A. L. SCHLEBUSCH:

No, these are murder charges. In the past number of years this Department has dispalyed ever increasing and finer development, and what I, as a member from a rural area, want to praise in particular is the very positive method of decentralization which they are adopting in various fields. Recently, at the inauguration of the Victor Verster Prison for Whites near FransChhoek, we saw what excellent institutions are being established in the rural areas, not only to be of service to the rural areas, but also to facilitate contact between the prisoners and their next of kin. In addition we also have a very clear and fine example in the training college established for white male members of the Department at Kroonstad. This college is rapidly nearing completion, and when completed it will cost about R2 million. But because the Department itself is carrying out the work involved, we can probably multiply this figure of R2 million by three at the least. This institution will eventually accommodate 600 students. Those of us who saw the orchestra, the gymnasts and the students of this college performing will have to admit that they need not take second place to any other service institution whatsoever, and that they add lustre and prestige not only to this institution, but also to the entire Department.

A further fine figure to indicate what progress is taking place in this ¡Department, is that in respect of the training of white male personnel in their own time. It is a fact that a decade or two ago a prison warder was a very humble person. Although thorough, he was a very humble person, and there was no question of high academic qualifications in the caseof most of them. Even 10 years ago there were only three white members of the staff who had university degrees. To-day the position is that 79 members of the staff already have university degrees.

In this connection I pay tribute to the hon. the Minister, our present Commissioner, who, by the way, himself set an example in this connection, and also the untiring zeal of Mr. Victor Verster, the previous Commissioner. This Department’s staff has increased to such an extent that at present there are 8,748 posts on the permanent establishment of the Department.

I want to conclude by asking the hon. the Minister that, in view of the fine progress which this Department is making and the good work which its members are doing, even beyond the duties imposed upon them, he should always be prepared to reward this excellent growth by upgrading the more senior posts, with the adjustments which that would entail.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

I want to raise one or two matters concerning Prisons with the hon. the Minister, and then another matter which falls more under the Justice part of his portfolio. I agree with some of what the hon. member who has just sat down said, namely that there have been considerable improvements effected in our prisons in the last two or three years. I for one am very glad about this. I think there has been a better attitude, generally speaking, even towards complaints about the prisons. I believe, of course, that the Prisons Act should be amended so that one could expose any abuses and other things that one believes to be going on in the prisons without fear of criminal prosecution, because I think that is just a social duty which rests on any citizen of the country. Anyway, as I say, there have been improvements and one is grateful for them. There are, however, still some matters which I think are unsatisfactory as far as the so-called offenders against the State are concerned, the political prisoners, some of whom are at the Pretoria Central Prison, the male white prisoners, and a great number of non-White. are still on Robben Island. There are also a few women prisoners left, and some non-white women prisoners at Barberton and Nylstroom.

I have been conducting a laborious correspondence with the hon. the Minister over a couple of years over some points, but I do not seem to get very much further with him on certain aspects of prison administration. The one is the slow up-grading of the prisoners in this category. I know there have been upgradings. I believe nobody is at the moment left in the “D” category. Some are now in the “B” category, but I do not think any are in the “A” category. The hon. the Minister seems to think it is perfectly justifiable that the crimes or offences these people have committed are taken into consideration in the actual grading within the prison itself. Of course my contention is that it is the court which has imposed the punishment in keeping with the crime the person has committed, and after that surely, if the person is behaving himself well in prison, there should be no barrier to his rapid upgrading from “D” to “A”, because a great deal of difference is made in prison in regard to the privileges, etc., depending on the grading one receives in the prison. That is the first point. The Minister simply said to me that he was satisfied that progressive individual reclassifications are regularly made, having regard to the nature of the offence, security and other relevant factors. Well, I do not know how much more secure one can be than in the Pretoria Local or on Robben Island, which are maximum security gaols, and within those walls it surely should be permissible for a more rapid upgrading to take place.

Then there is the question of remission of sentence. I have said to the hon. the Minister, and I wish to repeat here, that one is better treated in South Africa if one has committed the crime of rape or assault and battery or attempted murder, or any of the serious crimes, as far as remission of sentence is concerned, than if one has committed a crime which falls in the category of an offence against the State. If one has committed a crime and is found guilty of a crime in any of those categories, under the Suppression of Communism Act or under the Banned Organizations Act, or for sticking posters on walls, etc., one is far more harshly treated in South Africa as far as remission of sentence is concerned and in so far as actual treatment in prison is concerned, because of the grading system in particular, than if one is a hardened criminal who has committed any of these serious crimes of brutality and violence. Such people are not excluded from remission of sentence. Of course everybody has to serve, I think, two-thirds of the sentence before remission is considered. Some, of course, are given amnesty on certain occasions and others are released on parole. But for the prisoner who is serving a sentence for an offence connected with the security of the state, or offences against the state, apparently no remission is considered at all.

Mr. G. F. VAN L. FRONEMAN:

But it is partly preventive treatment.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

You cannot go on indefinitely preventing somebody from committing a crime. Why do you not prevent a rapist? Why do you allow a rapist out after he serves two-thirds of his sentence? Why do you allow a man out who has committed assault and robbery? Does he not need preventive detention? Surely he needs it no more or no less than the man who has committed the crime of belonging to an unlawful organization.

What I say is absolutely true. If one is going to choose a career of crime—and II do not advocate it—it is far better in South Africa to choose a career of ordinary criminal violence than it is to commit a crime whiah has anything to do with the security of the State. I think this is unreasonable, especially as many of these people, if given a remission of sentence earlier, would leave the country immediately on an exit permit and therefore could no longer ¡be a real danger to South Africa. Surely the hon. the Minister will appreciate that.

Then there is the question of post-graduate courses at the prisons. It is part of our prison regulations that every prisoner should be encouraged to study. I want to say at once that I am delighted to find how widespread the system of prison education is, particularly on Robben Island where prisoners are being taught literacy and where they are being allowed to study for ordinary school examinations, including matriculation, and I believe that some of them even take university courses. This is so too, of course, in the other prisons, and in this regard I only have words of praise for the department. But I cannot understand the hon. the Minister’s adamant attitude about that selective group of prisoners in the Pretoria local gaol and, I presume, elsewhere, if there are graduates amongst the non-Whites, as in fact I know there are—on iRobben Island and elsewhere—who are not allowed to pursue post-graduate studies. The hon. the Minister has given me one reason. He says that “such courses connote personal contact with the head of the faculty of the university concerned and possibly other outside sources, and that for practical and security reasons this facility cannot be acceded to.” I want to point out to the hon. the Minister that this is not true. All these courses are done through Unisa; they are all done by correspondence. I understand that the Unisa people are perfectly prepared to continue in the ordinary way with prisoners doing post-graduate courses. They are providing the under-graduate courses anyway, and there is no reason at all why they should not also do the post-graduate courses. Some of the men sitting in the Pretoria local prison have B.A.’s, B.Sc.’s, etc. What are they to do during the years and years which they spend in gaol if they are not allowed to pursue post-graduate study? They are allowed to do occasional courses, but surely some hope must be given to the men who are not serving life imprisonment. There are some who are serving lone terms of seven, nine, twelve or fifteen years. These people presumably are entitled to look forward to a life after they had served their sentences. After all. it was the Deputy Minister of Police who said to me not long ago when I asked why Arlow had been re-admitted to the police force, that he had atoned for his crime; in other words, he had served his sentence or paid whatever penalty was imposed upon him. Cannot the same mercy be shown to people who are serving long sentence for crimes against the State? Cannot they be allowed at least to look forward to some sort of life outside prison when they are finally released? I do not understand this attitude on the part of the hon. the Minister at all. Then, Sir, the work which these people are doing, by and large, is terrible work.

I know that facilities will be provided, I hope soon—and perhaps the hon. the Minister will tell me when, because I have been asking him this for two years now—for work other than the sewing of mail bags and the cleaning of cells for these prisoners who are in the Pretoria Local gaol. Many of them were students in fact. The prisoners on Robben Island, of course, do hard labour. I know that there is no such thing as hard labour, expressly, in our laws, but in fact the work that they are doing is hard labour—breaking stones, moving sand, etc. I hope that the hon. the Minister will be able to tell me to-day that facilities are being provided for more constructive work for these people who are serving long-term sentences. That is all I want to say in this connection.

Then on the question of prisons, I want to know what the hon. the Minister is going to do about the enormous number of short-term prisoners who are also his responsibility. I know that he is not responsible for the laws which in fact are the cause of these hundreds of thousands of short-term prisoners cluttering up the gaols and bulging the walls of our gaols. I think it was Prof. Venter, who is a criminologist at the Pretoria University, who pointed out that in 1964 … [Interjections.] Well, he was. Is he no longer there? Has he been thrown out?

The. DEPUTY MINISTER OF BANTU DEVELOPMENT:

No, I am not listening to you; I do not know what you are talking about.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Funnily enough. I am not listening to the hon. the Deputy Minister either; I am listening to the hon. member on the back bench over there. The hon. the Deputy Minister should reply to some of the things I say; he did not reply to me yesterday. [Time expired.]

*Mr. J. T. KRUGER:

I may say that I am surprised that the hon. member did not deliver her usual tirades here to-day. One is actually surprised that she did not raise the question of restrictions once again, but the reason for that may be that she did raise that question on two previous occasions. But seeing that she did not mention it, I think that I, in all fairness to the hon. the Minister of Justice, ought to do so. Consequently I just want to deal with a few aspects regarding restrictions. There are two points of criticism in particular which are expressed by the hon. member for Houghton every time and also by the Press at times. The insinuation is that the hon. the Minister of Justice allegedly employs his powers arbitrarily to restrict innocent people, to place innocent people in an inconvenient position, to deprive them of their work and to drive them from the country by those means. The other is that the hon. the Minister of Justice, as far as restrictions are concerned, ought to transfer his powers to impose restrictions to the courts. It is very interesting that requests are usually made, when a person is restricted, for such a person to be brought before the courts. The idea seems to be that threeJudges will be more competent than the hon. the Minister of Justice to impose those restrictions. I think the hon. member for Houghton will agree with me that the appointment of Judges is also at the discretion of the hon. the Minister of Justice. There has never been any complaint in South Africa either against the previous Minister of Justice, or against the present Minister of Justice, to the effect that they had not exercised their discretion well in the appointment of Judges. If that is so, why are their objections to the same Minister exercising his discretion when it comes to restrictions? If he is competent to exercise his discretion in the one case, then surely he is also competent to exercise his discretion in the other.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

He is not infallible.

*Mr. J. T. KRUGER:

Sir, I just want to mention a few cases of restriction for the sake of the record. There are many more than those I am going to mention now, but I want to mention a few cases of restriction here, cases in which the Minister of Justice did in fact exercise his discretion, and I want to show what happened in spite of that. Let us take the case of Mr. Roley Arenstein. He was restricted in 1962 at the discretion of the hon. the Minister, and in November, 1966, he was found guilty by a Judge of the Supreme Court of activities against the State and sentenced to four years’ imprisonment. Take the case of Harold Strachan. The Minister had to exercise his discretion and he did so in 1965. In 1966, in spite of that restriction, that person was sentenced by the court to 21 years’ imprisonment in consequence of an article which he had written about prisons in South Africa. Take for example the case of Ivan Scherm-brucker. This person was restricted by the hon. the Minister at his discretion in November, 1963, and in April, 1965, he was sentenced to five years’ imprisonment by an independent court. Take the case of Denis Goldberg. He was restricted at the discretion of the Minister in 1963, and in June, 1964, he was sentenced by an independent court to imprisonment for life. Nelson Mandela was restricted in 1962, and in 1964 he was sentenced to imprisonment for life by an independent court. Walter Sisulu was restricted in 1963, and in 1964 an independent court sentenced him to imprisonment for life. Sir, I can continue in this way. I have mentioned only a few examples of people who were restricted at the discretion of the Minister of Justice and who subsequently continued with their activities and were sentenced by independent courts. I mention these cases to prove that the discretion to which objections have been raised has never been exercised unjustly. What happens is that when an important person is restricted, he is visited by the Press. I do not think that hon. members will be so naïve as to believe that restricted person when he says that he is completely innocent. Stories are then dished up about what a pity it is that such brilliant people should be restricted by a harsh Minister. The impression is created that the people are being deprived of their livelihood by a harsh Minister. The restricted person is always the innocent person, and the Minister is then presented as a harsh person, but here I have just proved to you that these restrictions at the discretion of the Minister have been justified in every instance. The hon. member for Houghton always asks, “Why do you not tell us what these people have done?” As far as this cry is concerned, I want to tell the hon. member for Houghton that she should exercise a great deal of care when people request her to ask the Minister for facts in this House, because those people who try to persuade her to ask the Minister for the facts of the matter in this Parliament, are not always innocent agitators. Sir, we should not overlook the fact that all restrictions are imposed under the Suppression of Communism Act of 1950. All restrictions have a communistic basis, and it is of the utmost importance for South Africa that Communism in this country should be wiped out completely. I want to inform this Committee that the security which we enjoy in South Africa to-day and the fact that there is so little agitation, is attributable to the timely action taken by the previous Minister of Justice and the present Minister of Justice and by our Security Police, our Police Force, in South Africa. Were it not for them, we would most probably have been experiencing the same kind of agitation and unrest here as is being experienced in Europe to-day. But let me take this idea a little further. Surely hon. members themselves can understand that our security police have built up a security system in the interests of South Africa, a system which makes it possible for all members of this House to sleep safely at night, and if the hon. the Minister of Justice were to disclose facts relating to the deeds of restricted persons, any person who has a logical mind would realize that the system which has been developed over the years by the Police could be destroyed by the enemies of South Africa, and that is the reason why the hon. the Minister says that it is not in the interests of South Africa to disclose those faots. I want to congratulate the hon. the Minister on the strong attitude he adopts as regards the pressure which is being exerted on him by certain sectors of the Press and especially by the Progressive Party and its members.

*Mr. G. P. VAN DEN BERG:

It has one member only.

*Mr. J. T. KRUGER:

Sir, let us be quite honest. I think that it is an unpatriotic act on the part of the Press to go along with these irresponsible actions; to come along here with all kinds of tearful stories about persons who have been restricted. Pictures of their children are published in the newspapers; stories are printed about the sufferings of those people, and the impression is created that if those persons were to have been brought to courts,they would have been acquitted. What happened in practice, in spite of all the threats, after these persons had been restricted? I just want to give you one example. In the case of Dr. Hoffenberg, certain persons in the Press threatened that a certain number of doctors would resign. I have not yet noticed one single doctor resigning as a result of the restriction of Dr. Hoffenberg. In fact, I subsequently saw in the Press that certain doctors had said that the Government knew what it was doing; that it had adopted a responsible attitude; that the South African Government had never yet acted unpatriotically or unjustly; that they knew what they were doing and that that was the reason why the persons concerned were restricted. In the time at my disposal, I just want to associate myself with what the hon. member for Heilbron said. From my practical experience as an advocate, I just want to say in connection with the study of Latin that I am also of the opinion that the time has come for the universities to reconsider the question whether a full law course in Latin is necessary for an LL.B, degree. [Time expired.]

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Mr. Chairman, I am not going to waste too much time on the hon. member for Prinshof. I have quoted figures over and over again in this House to show that of the people detained, large numbers were never charged. Of those who were charged, many were not found guilty. Obviously he was disappointed that I did not make the speech he expected me to make, so he had to make the speech he had prepared in anticipation. Let us leave that matter to one side.

Now that he has raised the matter, perhaps the hon.. the Minister will be a little more forthcoming than he and the hon. the Prime Minister were earlier this session in giving us some information about Dr. Hoffenberg and his actions in this regard. I am not remotely interested in whether the medical profession said that they are sure that they know what this Government is doing. I do not think the medical profession’s diagnosis is always correct. I would much rather know from the hon. the Minister whether he can give us some information, because, unlike the hon. member for Prinshof, I do not have an absolute trust in the infallability of the special branch and of the actions of this Government. I can mention case after case of people with no connection with Communism whatsoever, who were placed under bans, detained and all the other dreadful fates that can befall them under the laws that require no confirmation by the courts of law whatsoever. Hoffenberg is one of those people, and so are Ian Robertson, Ruth Hayman and Peter Brown. I can go on mentioning names ad nauseam to the hon. member. But let us hope that the hon. the Minister perhaps, now that the session is drawing—thank heaven!—to its close, will be able to give us some information about that.

I was mentioning the question of the bulging gaols with all the short-term prisoners, and I simply want to draw to the hon. the Minister’s attention, because there is no time for me to go into this in depth, the statement made by Mr. Justice Steyn of the Cape Town Supreme Court about the number of short-term prisoners. He said that “the time has come for us to appreciate that short-term imprisonment is a barren exercise”. He said that rehabilitation is obviously part of the whole idea of sending people to gaol. He ended up with a very intelligent statement that it costs the State much more to look after people in the gaols, namely, 50 cents a day, than it would do if they went in for some sort of long-term solution. He said Much of our motiveless crimes of violence and petty dishonesty has its origin in the living conditions of our people. The State has done much and is doing much in this regard, but it is a burden which it alone cannot carry.

The point I want to make is that of the 339,000 people who went to gaol during the year ending June 30th, 1966, something like 118,000 received sentences of more than one and up to four months’ imprisonment, many of them for petty offences under the Pass Law, influx control and so on. 162,000 received sentences of less than one month imprisonment, undoubtedly almost all for influx control, curfew and tax offences, etc. I think this is something which the State really cannot just allow to go on year after year, with thousands of people going to gaol for petty offences, losing earning capacity, wasting man-hours, and everything else that this entails. What is more, these prisoners are becoming hardened criminals, because when they come out of gaol, they come out in exactly the same state as before they went in. They still have no job, they still are passless and likely to be picked up again the next day and put back in gaol.

Now I want to come back to one specific case which came to my attention and the attention of the Press earlier this session. That is this extraordinary case of the ten-year old Paarl Coloured boy. It is an astonishing case. If I can remind this Committee, this was a case where a Coloured boy of 10 was apparently awaiting trial for stealing mealies to feed his grandmother’s chickens. This has subsequently emerged. This boy was kept for one whole month in a police cell awaiting trial. I asked the hon. the Minister if he could give us some information about this matter. What he said, was this:

The child was detained in a police cell separate from adults and not in a gaol. The family of the child was not in a position to take care of him and as no other suitable place of safety was available he was placed in a police cell, which is also a place of safety, in terms of section 1 of the Children’s Act, until the case against him was disposed of. It is a requirement of the Criminal Procedure Act that sentence cannot be imposed in cases of this nature before a certificate by the South African Criminal Bureau is handed into court. Due to the condition of the child’s hands his fingerprints could only be identified after they were taken a second time. Consequently the case could not be disposed of earlier.

All I can say is that the hon. the Minister’s statement raises more questions than answers and more doubts than it resolves. This is all I can say about that.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE OF PRISONS:

In what respects?

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

I am just about to tell you, Sir. First of all. I want to raise the question about the definition of a prison cell and a police cell being a place of safety. Is there no other place in the whole of Paarl, with its large Coloured population, where non-white children can be kept in places of safety other than the prison cells? This is no desperado, but a 10-year old child. This is my first point. I do not believe that the Children’s Act ever envisaged that a police cell should be used as a place of safety in a case like this. I cannot for one moment believe that it envisages this. It must mean some violent young juvenile, someone who cannot be put out with some guardian or some other place of safety. It is ludicrous that this should have happened. This must have been more or less solitary detention for this child. I presume that there were no other children in the cell at the time. He was also kept separate from other adults for 30 days and 30 nights. I hope that the hon. the Minister has been able, in the meantime, to make more of an investigation in depth and that he can tell us something about that. Why was the child not left in the care of his grandmother? If she was not a fit person, what has happened to the child in the meantime? I know that somebody went to the Anglican priest, who briefed a lawyer and that the lawyer put the case before the magistrate. The child’s sentence was suspended for three years and he was sent off. Nobody knows what has become of that child since then. Surely the magistrate should have taken it upon himself to find out, because he is, after all, supposed to act as a guardian for these children. That is one of his duties as a magistrate, namely to see that such children are placed under proper care. I now want to know what has happened since. The magistrate obviously did not know that the child was in the cell for 30 days, but when it was brought to his notice what steps subsequently did he take to place this child in proper care? This child is obviously in need of care, and our Children’s Act makes all provision for such children to receive special attention.

As I have said, the magistrate, as part of his duties, should have done something about this. I think that he should have had an inquiry to find out why the child was in need of care, what was going to happen to him and why he was placed in a police cell in the first instance. The hon. Minister also mentioned that a certificate from the Criminal Bureau was not available in time and that it was one of the major reasons why the child was kept so long. Was this for previous convictions? I presume that the certificate is necessary to verify previous convictions. I think it is ludicrous and that this is not any explanation at all. And what was wrong with his hands? Can the hon. the Minister tell us what was wrong with the child’s hands, other than the bleak statement that the child’s hands were in such a condition that it was not possible to take fingerprints. I think this whole matter is most unsatisfactory. I think that this Government will bring credit on itself, and that the Ministers will bring credit on themselves if, just occasionally, one of them would say that something wrong was done by one of the departments, that they do not agree with what was done, that they think that other steps should have been taken or that they themselves would take steps to see that there will not be future occurrences. Ministers react like mothers with small children the minute anybody criticizes their department. They take it upon themselves and they think that they have to defend their departments. All of us will admit that no one can be infallible all the time. So always, to have excuses, however fatuous these excuses are and for whatever absurd actions departments may have taken, does not I think bring any credit on the Ministers or the departments. I believe that this is a real example of the sort of thing I mean. I think that there can be absolutely no excuse for keeping a child of 10 in a police cell under any circumstances for 30 days when the child was booked on a charge of stealing a basin of mealies. The farmer in this case said that he could have dealt with the child himself. Beatings are the answer, according to him, but a neighbouring farmer had been severly reprimanded by the court for having taken the law into his own hands. [Time expired.]

*Mr. H. J. COETSEE:

Mr. Chairman. I should very much like to have ignored the hon. member for Houghton, because that is just what she deserves. However. I want to say the following to her. The laws on the Statute Book must be obeyed until such time as they are removed. It is no use her quoting a few exceptional cases here as if they are proven facts.

The Law Society is very much indebted to the hon. the Minister of Justice for the regulations in terms of which the distribution or administration of deceased estates by persons other than attorneys is prohibited. However, it is also necessary for the Law Society to take note of the fact that they must furnish a quid pro quo. Their syllabuses do not require a thorough study of the administration of estates. However, I think that the time has nowcome for this to be made a compulsory subject. That is not all. Times have changed, of course. In the past the country attorneys fulfilled a very important role, and if they want to maintain that position, they must adapt themselves to changing circumstances. Consequently it is essential for them to have a sound knowledge of finance and economics. Therefore I want to submit for consideration that their syllabuses should include a thorough study of finance and economics, so that they will be in a position to advise people about the new avenues of investment the way to read balance sheets, and so fordh.

I think that the whole of South Africa is grateful that our country could make such a great contribution to medical science as that made by Professor Barnard and the heart team. However, these historical developments have also give rise to numerous questions in the field of medical jurisprudence, especially in respect of organ transplantation. An important question is the following: Where is the dividing line between life and death? In other words, when is the donor irrevocably dead, so that one of his organs can be transplanted? This question will in time also crop up in the field of succession. This question is now coming to the fore positively and is thoroughly testing the legal sense of file public, especially since another heart-transplant patient died overseas a few days ago. In one case the question of whether the donor was in fact dead or not is already being argued.

Certain doctors argue that cerebral death is sufficient for a person to be declared dead. They say that the advantage of using this as a criterion is that there is still some circulation of the blood and that the heart still beats of its own accord. Other doctors, again, say that a person is only dead when both the heart and the brain have ceased functioning. Doctors are looking to jurists to solve these problems, and the question now arises whether the legislature should take the lead or whether it should be left to the courts to decide the matter by way of judgments.

During a world congress in Belgium in 1967 a prominent doctor put the matter as follows—

The consequences of not defining are not only the risk of clouded thinking, or very little thought at all, but also the risk that concepts and procedures may be determined by occasional leading cases rather than by concerted deliberations of physicians, lawyers, priests and philosophers.

He expressed the hope that definition would be laid down. Our own positive law provides no guidance in this field. The Post-Mortem Examinations and Removal of Human Tissues Act, No. 30 of 1952, contains no definition of what a “corpse” is and what “death” means. I refer hon. members to an article by Prof. S. A. Strauss, an expert in the field of medical jurisprudence, in the well-known journal De Rebus Procuratoriis of 2nd of February, 1968. in which he broaches this matter. He puts it as follows—

Whether the removal of tissue from a corpse was done in terms of the quoted regimen, is therefore a question of evidence. For the sake of greater clarity but especially for the guidance of surgeons who conduct transplants, it would … be desirable for the Legislature to define these concepts in greater detail.

South Africa has led the world in the field of heart transplantation. I want to suggest that it is fitting, no, essential, that South Africa also take the lead in answering the question: “What is the moment of death?”

As far as the removal of an organ is concerned, an additional problem arises, a problem which comes to the fore as a result of the rapid progress which has been made. In terms of Act No. 30 of 1952 a tissue or organ can only be removed if a magistrate has given permission by virtue of a bequest or in collaboration with members of the family or bona fide friends. This permission must of course be given in writing. While all this is being done, valuable minutes are lost, and hon. members will surely realize that in matter of this nature minutes are of the utmost importance. Considering the progress which has been made in this field, I want to suggest that the legislature should consider whether it is not practicable that a magistrate, in the absence of family and friends, may grant permission for the removal of tissues or organs on the strength of medical certificates. If he grants permission, the tissues or organs can very quickly be removed to a bank to be preserved in order to be of use to mankind.

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

Mr. Chairman, I hesitate to follow the hon. member who just sat down who spoke about the difficulty of determining just when the moment of death occurred. I feel that as a layman I cannot delve into those depths.

I do not make any apology for raising the subject which I wish to raise, and that is the registration of fire-arms. I raised this matter last year with the hon. the Minister and I do so again against the background of the recent sad happening overseas. Last year the Minister told me he would take steps to amend the Arms and Ammunition Act as soon as possible and go into the question of a central firearms registration bureau. Since then there have been quite a number of incidents involving the use of fire-arms. Last year 31,000 people were prosecuted in South Africa for radio and other licence offences. These cases take up a great deal of time. I would suggest these are relatively minor matters compared to fire-arm offences and the dangers inherent in them. Criminal acts of violence in South Africa last year took the lives of 8.640 people which is a very high figure. I am not suggesting they all lost their lives due to the use of fire-arms, but one could well suggest that fire-arms played apart in many cases. I mention this figure as an additional reason why something should be done about this subject as soon as possible. There were 4,800 odd cases reported involving firearms, according to the report, up to the end of 1966. In recent weeks in the Cape Province children have lost their lives because of the carelessness of people who left their fire-arms where the children could get hold of them.

Business suspended at 12.45 p.m. and resumed at 2.20 p.m.

Afternoon Sitting

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

Mr. Chairman, before the House adjourned for lunch I was discussing the registration of fire-arms. I wanted to say that I did not want to proceed with the points made by the hon. members who had spoken before me, since with one exception they were all attorneys. My experience of attorneys up to now has only been that they are expensive. I mentioned that over 8,000 people had lost their lives through violence in South Africa during the year ending December, 1966. Although one must obviously say that the vast majority of these people lost their lives through means other than firearms, one would nevertheless be accurate in saying that fire-arms did in fact play a large part. I also said very briefly that even here in the Western Province in recent weeks children have lost their lives through fire-arms. It seems, therefore, that people have tended to become very careless in the use of fire-arms and about where they store their fire-arms. I think the hon. the Minister will agree with me that this is borne out by the fact that year by year the number of fire-arms recovered by the Police always exceeds the number of fire-arms reported as stolen. It would, therefore, seem that a lot of people are having fire-arms stolen while they are completely unaware of their loss. In other words, they have put their fire-arms in certain places and then forgotten that they even own them.

As a result, in the last six years the reported thefts of fire-arms amounted to nearly 15,000 cases and the number of fire-arms recovered amounted to almost 17,000. This shows that there is a great deal of laxity in regard to the whole question of fire-arms in South Africa. I do not want to repeat to the Committee the figures I advanced last year during my plea for regulations in regard to the control of fire-arms in South Africa. The incidence of the use of fire-arms for burglaries has increased again over the figure for last year and the previous year. It would seem that there is nothing that is going to halt this continual increase in the use of fire-arms in cases of violence and robbery. I believe that the time has come when we can obviously no longer tolerate the position as it is now. Dangerous weapons have to be controlled in this country as they have to be controlled in any other country. It is particularly necessary in this country where we have such a vast population of undeveloped and uneducated people.

I should also like to draw to the hon. the Minister’s attention the very serious problem of the periodicals and magazines which daily appear on our streets which laud the use of violence and fire-arms. I do not say that this falls entirely under the Minister’s Department, but what I am saying to the hon. the Minister as the Minister of Justice, is that I believe that his Department must look at this matter and give it very serious and urgent consideration, because if one wants to see why this increase in the crimes of violence is taking place, I believe that you need look no further than the nearest bookseller or newsagent. It seems to me that we are advertising and propagating violence amongst the population of South Africa, by the publication of these magazines. If this does not fall within the hon. the Minister’s prerogative, I would ask him to prevail, as the Minister of Justice, upon his colleagues in the Cabinet to see that something is done about this very serious position. I also want to say that for instance in this city of Cape Town one newspaper was banned because of its contents. No fewer than four out of five of the issues of this newspaper in the month of March alone were banned. I submit that this is one of the reasons why crimes of violence are increasing in South Africa. In all sincerity I ask the hon. the Minister whether he could not prevail upon those responsible to see that action is taken against this kind of publication.

I want to close my remarks by once again appealing to the hon. the Minister to see that the Central Bureau for the Registration of Fire-arms is established with as little delay as possible. I would suggest that every fire-arm in South Africa be re-registered with the authorities at a given date and that periodically these fire-arms should be produced to the Police for re-registration. I think that it does no earthly good for a person merely to renew a licence or permit as he would in the case of a radio. I think that in this case he must bring the actual fire-arm along with him so that the Police or the proper authorities can see that that weapon is still in his possession and that it has not been l-os-t in the meantime. [Time expired.]

*Mr. H. H. SMIT:

Mr. Chairman, since the name of the hon. member who spoke before me is the same as that of a well-known firearm, he can speak with much authority about fire-arms. I do not want to argue with the hon. member about what he said in regard to the danger of fire-arms. I think it is necessary that fire-arms should be handled with care. I think, however, that he should just make the distinction in so far as the appeal he is making that more care should be exercised in the handling and care of fire-arms, should not be addressed to the hon. the Minister but to the general public. I want to say that, in so far as the hon. the Minister has control over the question of fire-arms, we in South African canbe very grateful today that we need not introduce emergency legislation as we learned this morning had to be introduced in America on the question of the licensing of fire-arms. This was urgent legislation which had to be introduced to put the matter right.

I would like to thank the hon. the Minister for the statement he made here this morning about the question of the provision of liquor to non-Whites. I think that in making that announcement here he had eliminated many of the objections which there used to be and which still exist at present. People generally will be grateful for that. I would also like to bring an aspect which has a bearing on this matter to the attention of the hon. the Minister. His Department controls this matter as well, namely the concern which exists in the wine industry that the provisions of the Liquor Act of 1963, and the recommendations made by the Malan Commission prior to that legislation as regards the fact that natural wines and light drinks should be made more readily available, are not implemented quickly enough.

Voices were heard in this connection at the annual meeting of the K.W.V. yesterday or the day before. I want to avail myself of the opportunity to congratulate that large organization. which plays such an important role in our wine industry, on its 50th anniversary which was celebrated recently, and also on the responsible way in which that co-operative organization is looking after the interests of the wine industry. The concern which was expressed about the fact that the provisions of the Liquor Act in that regard are not implemented fast enough, concerned two aspects of the matter. One is the economic aspect and the other is the sociological aspect.

Now, as regards the economic aspect, the wine industry is of the opinion that if the provisions of the Liquor Act and the recommendations of the Malan Commission are not implemented, there will not be enough competition and that the prices of our natural wine products will be too high compared to the price the farmer receives. It is a fact that the new drinking pattern referred to by the hon. the Prime Minister when introducing that legislation as the then Minister of Justice, namely that better use would be made of our natural wines instead of stronger liquor, is progressing all the time and one is sincerely grateful for that. The only aspect which is less gratifying is that this matter is not progressing as rapidly outside the Western Cape, i.e. outside the natural production area of wine products, as it is progressing within the area concerned.

*An HON. MEMBER:

One has to pay too much for it.

*Mr. H. H. SMIT:

The hon. member says that one has to pay too much for it. This is the very essence of my argument, because I want to make the statement as regards the economic aspect of this that, as natural wines are becoming more readily available by means of grocers’ licences, the hon. member will be able to obtain them at a much more reasonable price, and then it will not be regarded as something which should be hidden away. When announcing earlier this year that he had not granted any new applications for grocers’ wine licences this year, the hon. the Minister dealt with the matter in detail and I would also like to avail myself of this opportunity to thank the Minister for the sympathetic and understanding way in which he dealt with this matter. He said that people should not expect that grocers’ wine licences would be granted on a large scale in the immediate future unless it could be proved that the sale of natural wine products was not progressing satisfactorily.

Furthermore, he said in his statement that the effects of the granting of such grocers’ wine licences—the limited number that had been granted—would be studied and that due regard would be had to local conditions as well as to the nature and extent of the sales of liquor in the particular area. In saying this, he naturally had in mind what quantity of natural wines and what quantity of strong liquor are sold in a particular area. He added that it would perhaps be unfair, especially at that stage, to expect hotels to have themselves classified at great expense and that they would be subject to too strong additional competition as a result of the granting of such licences.

He added that the number of selling points have increased considerably in the meantime, something which was welcomed by the wine industry too and which was also anticipated by the Malan Commission at that time in order to meet the economic aspects of the matter, because the more selling points there were, the more competition there would be and prices could therefore be forced down. The hon. the Minister also referred to the fact that the number of selling points had increased in the meantime.

In the third place, the Minister also said that existing licensees, i.e. hotels, would probably not qualify for ordinary liquor licences towards the end of this year but only for wine and malt licences, and that they would then also become factors in this set-up and that the full picture of the effects of these measures would have could only be considered in 1969 in order to determine what should be done in future as regards the granting of grocers’ wine licences.

I feel that all these aspects deal with the economic side of the matter, but I do not think aspects which the hon. the Minister mentioned in his statement as that time paid sufficient attention to the social aspect. The social aspect in connection with grocers’ wine licences, as was mentioned in the report of the Malan Commission, is that the wine producer does not like his product to be regarded as anything else but an ordinary agricultural product. In other words, moving from our present stage, i.e. that wine or liquor is sold by way of a licence, we must try to move in the direction where natural wine can bemore readily available to the general public just as food or any other agricultural product is available to them so that there will be no stigma attached to the product of the vineyard either.

I think much can be said in favour of this argument, because many of the undesirable things which are linked with the sale of the product of the vine are due to the fact that sales are taking place by way of a licence, something which necessarily causes it not to be generally available. We also have the conditions the hon. the Minister referred to this morning, namely the fact that people congregate at drinking places in certain townships and urban areas. I can well imagine that if further progress is made with what was said, and anticipated in the report of the Malan Commission in connection with grocers’ wine licences, we shall not have people congregating there any longer, because natural wine will then not be something one has to look for only at certain points, but it will be available in the same way as food is available and when and where one needs it. I want to admit straight away that one cannot advance to this point immediately and rapidly from the point where we are finding ourselves at present. [Time expired.]

Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

Unfortunately our time for the discussion of this Vote is limited, so that we have to get as much as we can into the ten minutes we are allowed. I will not reply to the hon. member for Stellenbosch now. I intend dealing with different subjects, but other hon. members will also talk on the points he has now raised.

The first point I want to raise is in regard to legal aid. I do so because I see the Department of Foreign Affairs has issued a publication “South Africa and the Rule of Law”. It was issued in April of this year for distribution abroad, and it contains an item on legal aid. Now the House will know that I have raised this question of legal aid on several occasions in the past under this Vote, because I feel it is quite wrong that only the very poor, the paupers, and the very rich should be able to go to court. There is no argument about it that the ordinary middle-income group man simply cannot afford to go to court. I am not going to repeat arguments I used in the past, or make comparisons with other schemes in other countries, but the publication I referred to says that an amendment of the present general legal aid scheme is now being considered which may result in the establishment of a legal aid fund subsidized by the State and from which practitioners will be remunerated for the services rendered. This scheme has been under consideration by the Government for some time, even before the present Minister took over, and I want to ask him when they are going to do something about it. At present, except in peculiar cases which I will mention just now, as a rule the only legal aid which is given is given by practitioners at the Side Bar, mainly, and also at the Bar occasionally, for nothing. As far as I know, it only operates more or less effectively in Cape Town and Johannesburg. As far as I know, it does not operate effectively anywhere else. The Minister can correct me, but from the inquiries I have made I think that is the position. One of the disadvantages of the present scheme is of course that anyone wanting legal aid has to go to the magistrate or an assistant magistrate, who operates the scheme, being ex officio chairman of the board. It is unnecessary for me to tell this House and the Minister that prisoners do not like going to the magistrate to set out their case. They are afraid, quite unjustly, but it is an official and they are afraid that the police or the court will get the information they divulge, and the present system is not a satisfactory one. I want the Minister to tell us what he is doing about it, because great play is made in this publication of legal aid and in every country it is becoming an increasingly important question. In this article it is stated that they get assistance in criminal cases. But I do not know of any criminal cases where they really get much assistance. In civil cases they get it in regard to divorces, but otherwise what assistance is given to the middle income groups, or even to the pauper, in civil cases? In this article it is stated that if you do not qualify under the means test—and it is a very low means test— the legal aid officer will refer it to an attorney who is on the roster and whose turn it is to assist. Now, why should the attorney be compelled to give this assistance for nothing? As far as criminal cases are concerned, it has always been the practice that pro Deo assistance is given to anybody who is charged with a capital offence and there the barrister and the attorney—usually just the barrister, but sometimes also the attorney—are paid by the State for the services they give in pro Deocases, but this payment is very little. There is great reluctance to take on these pro Deocases because they can last for a long time. Often they are very important cases and they last a long time, and these people are compelled to do the work over that period. This article goes on to deal with the defence of persons accused of committing offences with a political background. Obviously this was necessary in an article which was being sent abroad, because of the Government’s attitude to Defence and Aid and other bodies which provided defence for persons charged with criminal offences. We had the notorious case at iHumansdorp where the accused was eventually acquitted in the Appeal Court, but the case lasted for at least a month and it was held in an outlying place and the attorney and the barrister had to go there. But in this article it says, after dealing with the reasons why Defence and Aid was banned, that in new cases and in part-heard cases where the accused was not represented, an advocate or an attorney could be employed to defend the accused if he wished to accept such service,and in such cases the lawyer would be remunerated by the State. I want to ask the Minister to tell us how this assistance is given and to whom it is given. I can understand it if it is a capital offence, but if it is not a capital offence will the Minister please tell us when the State pays for the services of the attorney and the barrister? I am sorry I cannot go into this matter any further because I do not have the time.

Then I want to mention another matter which is causing much concern to the public. Sir, recently we saw a report about remarks made by a Judge in the Cape court about a prisoner who was convicted of robbery. The Judge pointed out that this particular person had been convicted and sentenced on several occasions. I think he said, if my memory serves me correctly, that on seven occasions he had been declared a habitual criminal, and yet this man was released from gaol and then finally committed robbery. Robbery can, of course, be a capital offence. This is probably an exceptional case, but too often we see that serious offences, usually associated with violence, are committed by persons who have been convicted before and who have received long sentences, including the indeterminate sentence, and then we find that as soon as they are at large again they commit offences. The public wants to know how it is that these people are released from gaol so easily. The police have an arduous task in tracing these criminals, finally making arrests and often under dangerous circumstances. Then we find that the man goes to gaol and the next thing that happens is that he is either released or that he escapes from gaol. I think there are far too many escapes from prisons. It is no good telling us that this happens in other countries as well. We know that people escape from prisons in other countries too, but we find far too often that prisoners escape or that the prison board releases them, and then the police have to start all over again. I want to know from the hon. the Minister whether he has consultations with the prison board. No reasons are given as to why prisoners are released or why their sentences are remitted. Does the hon. the Minister from time to time meet the prison board and discuss with them the principles on which they act? I can assure him that there is a great deal of concern about what is happening. There is an impression abroad too, of course, that we do not have sufficient gaols and that prisoners are being released to relieve the pressure in the existing gaols. I would like the hon. the Minister to tell us whether that is true. If it is true, then we should see to it at once that we get more goals.

Then I want to raise another matter, and that is the question of the granting of off-sales licences. The position to-day is that when hotels are classified, they are given off-sales privileges. I raised this matter with the previous Minister of Justice, the present Prime Minister, and I was assured by him at the time that they would only be allowed to move the licence away from the hotel in exceptional cases where they do not come into competition with vested interests. I brought a case to the Minister’s attention where a hotel was given off-sales privileges in an area far away from the hotel in competition with three other licensees who had been there, in the one case since 1928, in another case since 1946 and in the third case for many, many years. [Time expired.]

*Dr R. McLACHLAN:

I should like to move on to a different field. I should like to bring a matter to the attention of the hon. the Minister in connection with our children’s courts. As we know, all cases in the children’s courts are dealt with by a commissioner of child welfare. These persons inevitably are ordinary magistrates who have been designated to do this particular work. What the Children’s Act envisaged with the appointment of commissioners was to constitute the children’s courts in a special way; to allocate a special position to social welfare officers; to give special recognition to the social workers who investigate the circumstances of children in need of care and to ensure the confidential nature of court proceedings. Everything is aimed at the protection of the child, and consequently commissioners of child welfare are expected to be people of special ability, people who. take a special interest in and who have a special knowledge of the factors revolving round the special needs of children or the circumstances under which children are brought before the children’s court.

I want to say that our Children’s Act is generally accepted to be a particularly fine Act, and because this is so, it is our experience that our commissioners of child welfare have made an enormous contribution to child welfare. I am convinced that if time permitted we would have been able this afternoon to mention a long series of names of commissioners of child welfare who have made history over the years with the role they have played in developing our Children’s Act and child welfare in general. Because this is so, the few shortcomings which do exist strike one forcibly.

At present the position in our larger centres is, particularly in the urban areas, where a great many cases are dealt with by the children’s count, that a magistrate is designated to devote his exclusive attention to this kind of work; this work occupies all his time. In the smaller industrial centres and in the unban towns there are not sufficient cases to justify designating a person to do this work on a full time basis. Consequently we find, as a result of the tremendous change-over which normally takes place amongst the officials, that a magistrate hardly becomes conversant with the operation of the Children’s Act or with the entire spirit of the Children’s Act, before he is transferred to another court. The newcomerwho succeeds him then has to start from scratch to acquaint himself with the provisions of the Act.

Sir, time does not permit me to do so, but we would perhaps have been able to point out interesting shortcomings which arise in practice as a result of the extent to which there is a change-over of staff in the children’s courts. I nevertheless want to mention to you, Sir, the ignorance we come across as regards the objectives of the Children’s Act because of the fact that most commissioners do not deal with that Act every day as they perhaps do with other Acts. At times we find confusion amongst commissioners about the function of the children’s court and about the position which the social worker or the social welfare officer may occupy in that court in terms of the Children’s Act. At times there also is a lack of real interest in the person as such on the part of the commissioners. Often they are concerned about the letter of the law only and not always the spirit of the law around which especially our Children’s Act revolves. A very great shortcoming is the lack of knowledge of our entire welfare structure and particularly of the welfare policy of this country, the methods according to which welfare organizations are linked up with the welfare services of the State, etc.

Social work in our country, which has very close connections with the children’s court, is a discipline which employs various instruments and the Children’s Act along with the children’s court, is one of the important instruments in this connection. Consequently I want to deliver a plea this afternoon that the commissioner should have not only knowledge of the Act as such or of the procedures, but also a wide interest in this particular branch of his work. I contend that the whole object of the Children’s Act is to bring about an atmosphere in the children’s court, when proceedings are in progress, which will afford the commissioner the opportunity of understanding the needs of the child brought before him. In most cases the commissioner does not form a judgment about the child as such. What he is concerned with, is in point of fact the question whether the child is in need of care, but the person who actually appears before him is the parent of the child who has been neglected. He goes into the circumstances which are the cause of the neglect. We feel that it is necessary that the commissioners should be able to visualize these particular circumstances more fully. It is in this light that I want to plead with the hon. the Minister this afternoon for a revised approach to the function of the commissioner of child welfare. When this matter is investigated or studied, I believe that this will have to be done in co-operation with the Department of Social Welfare and the voluntary welfare services, which are allowed to occupy such an important place in the children’s court.

I want to draw attention to the fact that we Pre living in a time of specialization, and if the Minister should take the step to have this matter investigated, such an investigation should be concerned chiefly with the status of the commissioner, the grading of his post, the question whether the commissioner should not be placed in a position which would enable him to make a deeper study of related subjects in addition to judicial subjeots. I have in mind related subjects such as social work, sociology, criminology, and the factors which really cause the child in need of care or the neglected child or the juvenile delinquent to be brought before him. I have in mind the possibility of investigating the question whether commissioners cannot be appointed on a regional basis, particularly in the industrial areas, so as to enable commissioners to visit certain courts on certain fixed days in order to eliminate the necessity of a magisstrate having to go from the ordinary court to the children’s court in order to hear a single case or two cases. We know that different directions are being advocated at present as regards the most desirable set-up in our children’s courts; I do not want to go into that matter now. Some people say that social welfare officers should play a much bigger role in those courts; others are of the opinion that this is a service which should be linked up to a large extent not with the courts as such, but with an office of the Department of Social Welfare. But I do not want to advocate these things. I am merely pointing out that there are certain schools of thought. I know from the experience of welfare organizations that a study of this matter is sorely needed.

I am aware that several objections can be raised by toe Department, such as the shortage of staff and the fact that magistrates should like to make a wider study of law in general and not only of this particular direction. The matter with which we are dealing, i.e. the child in need of care—a section of the community that has fallen by the wayside and with whom the Children’s Act has to deal—justifies this Act coming into its own, also along the lipes of making a thorough study in connection with the functions of the commissioner of child welfare. [Time expired.]

*Brig. H. J. BRONKHORST:

I should like to address a few words to the hon. the Minister in connection with our prisons. We hear a great deal about the rehabilitation work which is being done there and of the humane way in which prisoners are treated in our prisons. This is of course very commendable, especially in the case of young people and people who land in gaol for the first time. However, I should like to elaborate on a matter touched upon by the hon. member for Transkei a while ago, namely the question of prisoners who are released before they have served their sentences.

Let me say at once that I regard this as a very good thing; one does not want to strikeor kick these people once they are down. I am speaking under correction, but I think that prisoners automatically get a remission of sentence for good conduct. We find that many of the people to whom this concession is made never get into trouble again. It is clear that they appreciate this concession, but unfortunately, as the hon. member for Transkei rightly said, there are many people who return time and again and who receive a remission of sentence time after time. The question that occurs to one straight away is whether this remission of a part of the sentence is not a waste of time in the case of some of these old gaol-birds. One wonders whether the present system of automatic remission of a part of the sentence, which is applied to first offenders and young people, should be applied to these old criminals. Not so long ago a few articles appeared in the Press in which the police and the Department of Prisons addressed each other in quite strong terms about this very question of prisoners escaping and of other prisoners not serving their full sentences.

The hon. member for Transkei told us of the person who bad been sentenced time after time and released again, and then eventually appeared in court on a charge of robbery. We had a similar case in Pretoria last week. An escaped prisoner appeared in court again and was sentenced to three years’ imprisonment for escaping. He is only 34 years old and his list of previous convictions indicates that he has been declared a habitual criminal no fewer than six times since 1957. How is it possible that a person was declared a habitual criminal six times over a period of 11 years? How can he commit these offences when such a sentence was imposed upon him? What part of his sentence does he serve before being released? Apparently certain people are quite incorrigible. Although one does not want to treat them unfairly, it would appear to me that one takes a grave risk in releasing them in that they can then move freely amongst the public again. They usually commit the same type of crime over and over again and in an increasingly serious degree. In many cases they commit crimes involving violence, and sometimes even murder. It is not right that such people should be released, in any case not before they have served their sentences. It is not right that the public should be exposed to these dangers. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether releasing this type of person on parole, or suspending the sentences of this type of person, whom one can almost call the old hands, the habitual criminals, should not be approached differently.

*Mr. P. H. TORLAGE:

What does Helen say about it?

*Brig. H. J. BRONKHORST:

But I have nothing to do with Helen now. We are dealing with a serious matter. [Interjections.] Of course one feels very sorry for these people, but I think it is in the interests of the public and also in their own interests that they should be rendered harmless by serving their lull sentences.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE:

Mr. Chairman, I should like to reply in full to the points which have been raised here up to the present. I begin with the hon. member for Durban (North). He referred to the annual report of the Secretary of Justice, in which it is stated that a shortage of juristically trained persons was being experienced, and that a general shortage of staff did in fact exist. That is correct. All the Government Departments are experiencing a shortage of staff. People outside are also experiencing a shortage of staff. However, the Department’s shortage is not of such a nature that it is impeding the administration of justice.

The hon. member spoke about the delays which were being experienced, and referred specifically to the regional courts. There we have absolutely no shortage. My information is that there is no delay, and that the average duration of a case in a regional court from beginning to end is only two months. The relevant statistics are forwarded from time to time, and if there is the least indication of delays, additional assistance is made available. The Secretary did in fact say that owing to the limited number of staff we were not able to provide a magistrate’s court at simply any little place. We are making the best use of our staff in the circumstances in which we find ourselves. That is in fact what is happening there.

In addition I just want to mention that within the Department we have the training scheme where a lot of good work is being done to ensure that the men are juristically qualified. At present we have 200 full-time law students at university, who are earning their full salary while studying to become juristically qualified. We have two groups of a 100 each who are studying for three years to obtain the B. Jur. degree. Having done so the man is fully qualified for the judicial bench in the magistrates’ courts. Everything possible therefore is being done.

I want to agree with him that the salaries of our regional magistrates and magistrates doing special work, as well as those of State Advocates, is disproportionately low for the work those people are doing. I readily concede that. But as long as the Department remains part of the Public Service, we will not be able to get away from it. Unless we are established on the same basis as the Railways or the Post Office, we will not be able to get past this difficulty. This is in fact the position. I think I have now dealt with all the questions raised by the hon. member.

The hon. member for Heilbron referred to Latin as a qualification for legal training. I have learnt that certain other hon. members also want to discuss this topic, and for that reason I am, for the time being, leaving the matter at that.

The hon. member for Green Point referred to the new form of consolidated statutes. An arrangement has in fact been made with Butterworths, in terms of which the new consolidated statutes will continually be kept up to date. I have one of the volumes here. Perhaps the hon. member has seen one before. This new method has many advantages. It is an impossible task for my Department, which is the largest utilizer of the statutes, to continue wita these never-ending annotations. And for that reason we have undertaken to purchase a certain number from Butterworths, and they have introduced this system. However, it does not mean that tne statutes are not available in the other form. After legislation has been signed by the State President, and a copy has been despatched to the Registrar of the Appeal Court, it will be printed and will appear in a form which will make it very easy to bind together in sequence at the end of the year. The Department will do the work, and the Government Printer has also undertaken to insert an index at the beginning of such a collection. Covers are available to keep the whole book neat. They will therefore be available for those who either do not want the new consolidated volumes, or would like to see how the Act has developed, or who want to see how the statute read when the court gave its judgment. That person will of course have to take the trouble of making his own annotation from time to time, something which we are not always so eager to do.

The hon. member also referred to the preconstructed court premises. I just want to assure him that they are not to be sneered at. Those buildings have a very neat appearance. We have two of them at Booysens near Johannesburg, and another one at Hospital Hill Police Station. We undertook this decentralization in Johannesburg owing to the accumulation and the traffic jam at the magistrate’s offices there. They are fine buildings, and serve their purpose extremely well. They were erected because the time factor was a decisive one; ordinary building methods would have taken too long. But he can rest assured, as far as this is concerned, that the court rooms are quite efficient. The people who have to appear there, whether on the bench, or whether as attorneys, advocates or accused, are suffering no discomfort.

He asked for comparative tables to be furnished in the annual report. Comparisons are in point of faot the work of the Director of Census and Statistics. Although they may be useful—which I readily concede—I do not think we ought to let that duplication take place.

The final point made by the hon. member was that the two chief magistrates, namely those of the legislative capital and that of the administrative capital, Cape Town and Pretoria respectively, ought to be granted an allowance, because of the position they occupy and the circles in which they move. I am in full agreement with that. In fact, we have already tried to do so. It was refused, and was in fact refused because there was a fear of a chain reaction. Hon. members know what tends to happen in the Public Service. If one gets something, then pressure is exercised for the next to get it as well.

*Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

The same applies to Ministers and Deputy Ministers.

*The MINISTER:

The same applies to them, and to ordinary Members of Parliament as well.

I am grateful to the hon. member for Kroonstad for his praise of the work of the Department of Prisons, and for the work which is being done at Kroonstad. That is true; we are proud of the Department. It is also true, as he said, that the people are working to acquire higher qualifications. One unfortunate fact remains, however—as soon as they improve their qualifications they leave tie Department. It is an unfortunate fact, but one cannot of course stand in the way of any person who wants to improve his position.

The hon. member for Houghton was back wit i her usual complaints. The people concerned are not always the general prison population; it usually concerns either the Robben Islanders or the prisoners in the Pretoria Central Prison.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Especially them, but also the others.

*The MINISTER:

The hon. member stated that ffie new facilities which would be made available for those people and which would enable them to do work other than the ordinary, monotonous work of sewing post bags had been talked about for such a long time. I can also give her the assurance that the building will have been completed towards the end of July. There will be opportunities, particularly in the direction of woodwork. There will be various other opportunities for the peonle, for the purpose of keeping them occupied. I want to invite the hon. member, before we transfer them to that new building, to go and examine it and see whether it suits her.

The hon. member also asked why these people were not receiving reduction of sentences.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Like everybody else.

*The MINISTER:

That is not entirely correct. Just take the question of amnesty for example. The vear before last, with the celebration of the fifth anniversary of the Republic, amnesty was granted to all, except for a few groups, under which these people of course fall, and another three or four groups as well. As far as that was concerned, an exception was not made of them. Together with others they received the same treatment.

One-quarter and one-third reduction of prison sentences was also discussed here. It must be understood that this is a privilege of prisoners and is not a right which they are entitled to. It is also subject to good behaviour, and what the person’s outlook is. The difficulty with these people is that they do not change their opinions. The same argument applies to their grading. From first to last they never stop thinking about escape possibilities, and that is why one must be very careful with these people. One cannot expect them to make as rapid progress as ordinary prisoners. An ordinary prisoner is sorry for what he has done, and decides that he will not do it again, even the murderer does this. It is a fact that saboteurs are a State security risk, and they remain a State security risk to the last. The other day representations were made to me by an hon. member on the opposite side. I thought that I could perhaps go out of my way to accommodate this man for special reasons, but I have now received a report. He is still of the same opinion, and whether one gives him a reduction of one year or five, it does not make the slightest difference and he may as well be kept there, for up to the very last he remains a risk to the State.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Have you made the same inquiries about all the others?

*The MINISTER:

No, I have not. I know that the hon. member has also submitted representations to me from time to time. However, it so happens that I am mentioning the case wsich came to my attention again yesterday. The hon. member spoke about the “hundreds of thousands” of short-term prisoners. We regard a prisoner who is serving a prison sentence of from one to four months as a short-term prisoner, but these are people who are in prison for reasonably serious crimes. One must remember that a magistrate can impose a maximum sentence of only six months. In other words, to have received a sentence of four months, a person must already have committed a serious crime. Therefore, when a person receives a sentence from one to three months, we must not pretend that he is virtually guilty of nothing, or that it was merely a triviality.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

What about the 160,000 under one month sentences?

*The MINISTER:

Yes, that is possible. I have the statistics here, and J can eo into that matter. However, I do not think that it is so important. These sentences are for minor offences. What does the hon. member suggest as an alternative? Does the hon. member, as an alternative, want us to release them immediately? That is the difficulty. They must be punished, and they must be kept there, and the hon. member must also remember that the number she mentioned have in fact ended up in p-ison, but that many of them subsequently pay their fines and are then released.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

No, they do not. That is the trouble and I forgot to tell you. They keep t-’em there until they can be sent back on the Wednesday train.

*The MINISTER:

These persons are not all there for contravention of influx control laws.

The hon. member and I will also continue to differ on the question of post-graduate studies. In the prisons attempts are made to provide a general instruction, and wonderful progress is being made with this. Persons are also being allowed to study for a B.A. degree, and they can study for various B.A. degrees. However, we do not want to train specialists in prisons. There is enough time for general instruction, and such a person can study for two B.A. degrees if he wants to. However, he cannot study at a post-graduate level. This is a question of policy on which we differ and in regard to which I unfortunately cannot accommodate the hon. member any further.

The hon. member also spoke about the poor little Coloured boy in Paarl. She said that he stole a basin of mealies for his grandmother’s fowls. The fact of the matter is that he stole a three-quarter bag of cow meal. But it does not really make any difference what he stole. He appeared before the court, and on the same day he appeared before the court and was found guilty his grandmother, with whom he was staying was, sent off the farm. She appeared before the court, and when the child was found guilty, it was not possible to place the child in her care. She said that she could not look after him, because she did not even have food for herself. She said that she did not know where she was going to. She had been sent away, and was forced to find another nlace to live. Then they had to keep the child in a place of safety. There was only one other olace of safety where the child could be kept, but this was still under quarantine from chicken-DOX. So the only place they could keep the child was in the cell.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Could they not have found another respectable Coloured family in the area for him to stay with?

*The MINISTER:

I am now giving the hon. member the facts. The child was looked after there. He received three well-balanced meals per day. That was possibly much better than he would have received from his family. It is a stipulation in our penal code that when a person has been found guilty of theft or any other offence, fingerprints have to be taken. This ooor child’s fingers were smooth. He arrived there in that condition; the magistrate was not responsible for his condition. When they wanted to take the fingerprints, the process would not work prooerly. The finger-Drints were sent in, but they could not be identified.

Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

Why do they want the fingerprints of a ten-year old?

*The MINISTER:

The Act requires that fingerprints be taken of persons who have been found guilty. It is a statutory requirement. Unless we change the Act, this provision must be complied with. After he received care, and after his fingers had healed properly, they were able to take proper fingerprints. Subsequently he was released. Then, of course, these questions were asked, and we replied to them. The Cape Times kicked up a big fuss about the matter.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

And quite right, too.

*The MINISTER:

Yes, the hon. member for Houghton will always agree with that. I want to assure the hon. member that I at least do not feel guilty about what happened to this child. The child was properly cared for and fed. He was not detained like a prisoner.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Do you know where the child is now?

*The MINISTER:

Of course it has been quite some time since he was released from prison. I cannot say whether he has been declared a child in need of care, or whether he has been placed in care. [Interjections.]

*The DEPUTY-CHAIRMAN:

Order! Hon. members must not mar the spirit of this debate by making personal remarks.

*The MINISTER:

The hon. member for Bloemfontein (West) spoke about heart transplants. He asked when it is possible to determine that death had set in. I am afraid I am not qualified to express any opinion on that and to say that it should be laid down by way of legislation. It is an interesting subject, but it is not something in regard to which I am qualified to express any opinions.

The hon. member for Port Natal spoke about the registration of fire-arms. I want to say that I realize that what he touched upon is a very important subject. I said last year that we were drawing up a Central Register. What has happened in the meantime is that a resolution has been adopted to the effect that this particular law must in future be administered by the Department of Police, and not by the Department of Prisons. The Department of Police is at present drafting a new law, instead of merely amending the old Fire-arms Act, which will make provision for this Central Register. I have ascertained from them that they have made a great deal of progress with it. However, they are not yet in a position to submit the necessary legislation. I do not believe I can tell the hon. member anything more in this regard. As I have said, it is an important subject. The fact of the matter is that it has become apparent that people are very careless with their fire-arms. I can just assure the hon. member that while the Department of Justice was administering this matter we did not permit a man to purchase a second fire arm if he had lost his first one, or had allowed it to be misplaced, and there was any suspicion that he had been negligent. This was the policy, and I take it that this will also be the policy in future.

Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question? I understood the hon. the Minister to say that the registration of fire-arms falls under the Department of Prisons. I should like to know whether that is correct. He said that the registration would be handed over to the Department of Police.

*The MINISTER:

At the moment the Department of Justice is administering the registration of fire-arms. It has already been decided that the Department of Police will in future undertake this registration. They are at present busy drafting a Bill in this regard. I am sorry; it was a slip of the tongue.

The hon. member for Stellenbosch spoke about grocers’ wine licences. It is true that we have up to now imposed restrictions on the allocation of grocers’ wine licences. Originally two were issued as an experiment. Last year wegranted nine, to place the experiment on a broader basis. This year I announced that with a view to the special circumstances I thought it would be unfair to offer the hotels further competition. At the same time the hon. member said that he welcomed the statement I made this morning. I said that we were trying to eliminate the unsavoury conditions which had arisen as a result of the sale of liquor within white areas to other Coloured groups. I just want to inform the hon. member what would happen in regard to these grocers’ wine licences, as I see the matter at present. As I see the matter, and as experience has shown, the chain stores will be best qualified for this purpose. They are going to use the sale of wine as an attraction. They are going to sell it cheaply. In fact I have figures here which indicate that they are at present selling it at 1 cent above cost price. Consequently, there is going to be a tremendous rush. Actually therefore the hon. member expressed two opposing ideas. If it is to be sold normally in the trade, then everything will be fine. However, I fear that the people who will make use of this will be able to do this. They will be the large chain stores, and they will use it as an attraction. That has already been our experience. One of the first two licences was issued to a chain store in Springs. There was such a rush, and the store kept the prices so low, that K.W.V., by whom this criticism is being expressed to-day, went to the former Minister and asked him to do something about it. The expansion of wine licences and the implementation of price control is becoming an absolutely impossible task for any Minister. In addition we must still try to keep the brown and the black people away from them. However, I am not setting the matter aside. The principal reason why I have not promulgatedit this year, is that we are expecting all the hotels to be classified this year. That is my principal reason. We do not know how many additional distribution points there will still be, from which only wine and malt will be distributed. It seems to me that this year is a very inopportune time for allocating a large number of wine licences to grocers. The other reasons I have mentioned are simply additional reasons.

The hon. member for Transkei first raised the question of legal aid. This question has been raised from time to time, and it is also correct that we are giving attention to the matter all the time. We have made a great deal of progress with it. Of course the position at present is still that we are paying for pro Deo appearances. I can only say that subject to the approval of the Treasury, the pro Deoremuneration will be considerably increased. We are paying for all accused who are being charged with political offences, if they need defence. We approach the Bar Council of the Division concerned to appoint someone and we pay in full for his services.

*Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

Not upon full reapproaches the Bar Council?

*The MINISTER:

The magistrate in the first instance. He approaches the Bar Council and he asks the chairman or the secretary of the Bar Council to appoint someone. He then appoints a suitable person.

Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

Is there any question of a means test?

The MINISTER:

No, there are definitely no such considerations. I come now to the ordinary legal aid for the man who, as the hon. member said, is not a very poor nor a very rich man. In this regard we are in continual contact with the Association of Law Societies. We have had proposals and counterproposals in this regard. The Association has submitted to us an entire legal aid scheme. They have for example proposed that there should be a countrywide legal aid board. In addition they proposed provincial legal aid boards, district legal aid boards and a national director of legal aid. What they proposed would have required a tremendous organization. As we worked it out, it would have been larger than some of the smaller government departments. We asked them what the proposed scheme would cost, but they were unable to give us any indication of the costs. We could not accept the scheme. After further discussions a smaller scheme was decided upon. But we were also unable to reach unanimity on this smaller scheme in respect of the operation of the scheme, because we must have the co-operation of the legal profession. In the same way as the medical practitioner is sometimes prepared to work for virtually nothing, and in the same way as the attorney is in many cases to-day obliged to act without remuneration, we will have to ask the legal profession not to insist upon full remuneration.

*Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

Not upon full remuneration, but upon a certain measure of remuneration.

The MINISTER:

Yes, remuneration on some basis or other. The snag is still to decide precisely how we should do this. We shall have to lay down a means test. It cannot be done for any Tom, Dick and Harry. The accused who appeared repeatedly, and the ordinary skolly, who appears before the court day after day, cannot receive legal aid. At least, I am not prepared to grant legal aid in that case. I shall gladly grant legal aid to a man who honestly deserves it and the only test ought to be that the magistrate should determine whether he needs legal aid and secondly, whether he falls within the means test. Of course, if he is of that type which turns up repeatedly there, he will have to be disqualified. But I can inform the Committee that I have Cabinet approval in principle for an amount in respect of legal aid being included in the Estimates next year. It is now a question of finding methods of doing this, and the best alternative would be to come forward with a Bill, setting out the way in which this will be applied.

*Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

In civil cases as well?

The MINISTER:

Yes, it will be for civil cases as well.

*Mr. W. V. RAW:

And the means test must be on a proper scale.

The MINISTER:

Yes, there will have to be a means test, but these are details which I am still considering. As I have said, I have in principle received approval for an amount which will be included in the Estimates, but I shall still have to consider the details.

The hon. member, as well as the hon. member for North Rand referred to the question of people released on parole who returned repeatedly. I have statistics here which I can furnish, but we are in a bit of a hurry to deal with this Vote. This matter arose out of a report which appeared in the Cape Argus of 13 th February, 1968. I am reading only sections of it—

Judge hits at Prisons Board: The Judge-President of the Cape, Mr. Justice Beyers, criticized the Prisons Board yesterday afternoon for releasing prisoners sentenced to the indeterminate sentence too soon. He said: The other day I had to sentence a man who had been declared an habitual criminal no less than seven times before. I was asked to declare him for an eighth time. It makes a farce of this court, and usually it ends up with someone losing his life somewhere along the line. How anybody in his sound and sober senses can believe that such aman can be returned to society and will not resume a life of crime is something that I as a lawyer, and not as a psychiatrist, certainly do not understand.

Then the State Advocate, Mr. Brunette, said—

My Lord, the Prisons Board has a discretion.

And then Beyers, J.P., said—

They may have a discretion, but they certainly do not know much about exercising that discretion. If one man can be let out eight times and I have to send him back eight times, it makes a farce of this court, and usually it ends up with somebody losing his life somewhere along the way, and in this case it could easily have led to somebody again losing his life. How anybody in his sound and sober senses could believe that this man can be returned to society and that he will not resume a life of crime is something which I as a lawyer, unfortunately not being a psychiatrist, just don’t understand.

We were very concerned about this case, and we made inquiries. It then appeared that the hon Judge was referring to a certain Henry Fisher. I just want to give an account of the case and relate how a wrong impression can be created. On 4th November. 1952, 16 years ago, Henry Fisher was given an indeterminate sentence after he had been found guilty, since 29th May, 1945, on eight different occasions, and had been sentenced for crimes of dishonesty. He is therefore a dishonest man, and you know that a legal provision exists to the effect that if a man has been before the court more than a certain number of times, it is obligatory to impose the indeterminate sentence. Since 1952 he has been in prison, and in 1957 he succeeded in escaping for six weeks, and while he was a fugitive, he commited six robberies, for which he was found guilty on 27th June, 1957. in the regional court in Cape Town. He then received four indeterminate sentences for six robberies. While he was in prison, round about 1958. he committed two assaults on prisoners inside the prison, and he again received two indeterminate term sentences. He then had seven of these sentences. We then sent him to Barberton and there they brooked no nonsense from him. and after they had taken him in hand, because he was rebellious, he was a changed person. In 1967 the Transvaal Prisons Board was able to recommend that this man had to a certain extent changed his ways, after he had been in prison for 15 years, and had only been out for six, to such an extent that they believed they could recommend him for parole. He was then recommended for parole, and it was not long before the incident occurred for which he appeared before Justice Beyers. Now in all fairness to the Prisons Board I feel that what the Judge had to say was very drastic. I feel that if he had been aware of the circumstances, he would certainly not have expressed himself so drastically, and I must express my honest disappointment that criticism of departments should be levelled from the Judicial Bench, when such criticism is not deserved. That is what happened.

Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

May I ask whether you are satisfied with the policy of the Prisons Board?

*The MINISTER:

Yes, I am satisfied. In fact, I must sign each one of these things, and there is a tremendous amount of work. The Prisons system is aimed at rehabilitation and prevention, and one must prepare the man for return to the community. One cannot keep him there indefinitely. You must try and prepare him. But I now want to inform hon. members that we are in fact achieving quite a good deal of success with this. I want to mention the following figures. Of the total number of sentenced prisoners who have been taken up in the prisons during the past 12 years, 45.1 per cent of them were first offenders. In other words, 54.9 per cent were returning to prison for a second time. During these 12 years there was a period of three years during which the newcomers were more than half. Then the newcomers were 52.9 per cent, 51.8 per cent and 52.8 per cent. For the same period particulars of persons having only one former sentence were collected, that is to say persons who were being sent to prison for a second time. I am afraid my notes have let me down now, but the conclusion is that when first offenders are released a certain small percentage of them return for a second time. Of the second offenders, a somewhat smaller percentage returns, and of the third offenders an even smaller percentage, but taken on an over-all basis we have very good results as regards return after release or parole before the time, or remission of punishment.

*Brig. H. J. BRONKHORST:

Can the Minister inform us what the normal sentence is which an habitual criminal must serve before he is released, and. secondly, could he perhaps tell us something about this case which occurred in Pretoria last week, of a person who was declared an habitual criminal six times in a period of 10 years?

*The MINISTER:

The normal period he has to serve as an habitual criminal is from nine to 15 years. He cannot be released before nine years, and the longest period is 15. Unfortunately I have no knowledge of the case to which the hon. member referred. If the hon. member gives me the name, I will go into it.

I must still reply to the hon. member for Transkei in resnect of the distribution of off-consumption privileges. The hon. member and I exchanged correspondence in regard to this matter. It is correct that my predecessor, the present Prime Minister, stated in 1963 that existing rights would be taken into consideration. In 1965 the hon. member again raised this matter. (Hansard, Vol. 15, col. 7151.) The hon. member asked—

In regard to the transfer of off-consumption licences from one area to another, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether it is the policy to respect the rights of existing bottle stores?

Then the then Minister replied—

Yes, as far as possible the Board considers the interests of other licensees because it does not want all the licences in one area.

But then he went on to say: “It is of course very difficult …”

Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

No, he said “But in this connection, and almost to my dismay”.

*The MINISTER:

I was only reading a little further on. I shall read it all again—

… because it does not want all the licensees in one area. But in this connection, and almost to my dismay. I had the position that a certain hotel in Pretoria qualified automatically for an off-consumption licence because it was classified. It established its off-consumption premises on the hotel premises and to my surprise the bottle-store a little way away objected strongly to me because the hotel received an off-consumption licence on its own premises.

That is in fact the point I want to make, because it has been my experience, particularly after so many classifications have taken place.

It is very difficult to satisfy everyone in the liquor trade but it is the policy of the Board to spread licences as much as possible and not to have them on top of one another. But in many cases there are no suitable premises to which the licences can be moved and sometimes one can simply not do otherwise than to have these premises fairly close to one another.

In the case in East London to which the hon. member referred, application was made by the licensee for the removal of his licence to premises immediately adjacent to an industrial area, something which we do not readily allow. We do not like to locate off-consumption premises near workers. The application was therefore refused. He then applied for a second time, and his application was granted. The licence was removed to premises in the main street of East London, or the market in East London, where all the licences are concentrated.

*Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

Near the market.

*The MINISTER:

There is an hotel there already, and another bottle store.

*Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

There are two bottle stores and a hotel.

*The MINISTER:

That is unfortunately ffie position. We are trying as far as possible not to have a concentration of licences in one place, but at the same time the position is that there are only certain trade premises available. One cannot grant licences in a residential area because objections will then be raised; one cannot grant licences in industrial areas because objections will be raised to that, and one cannot grant licences near Coloured residential areas because objections will then be raised to that by the hon. member for Karoo. One is subsequently compelled to concentrate licences in the same place. I have, addressed further inquiries to the National Liquor Board in this regard, and they have assured me that they simply could not find any other solution.

Then the hon. member for Transkei spoke about the escapes. Many people harbour misconceptions in this regard. It is not always the case that escapees are dangerous people. We cannot always keep the prisoners locked up. One must organize them into work teams, and keep them busy, and that is usually when the escapes take place. Escapes are also made by people who have served a large part of their sentence and who are then enjoying certain privileges. There are even some of them who act in a supervisory capacity over other prisoners on farms, and this is where those escapes take place. As soon as escapes have been made, it is of course news. It is published in the various newspapers, and if the escapee is dangerous, then the fact that he has escaped is broadcast over the radio. One finds a duplication of news taking place and people come under the impression that a tremendous amount of escapes are taking place. The fact of the matter is that statistics indicate that escapes are proportionately very low if one takes into consideration the large prison population. This is of course something which gives rise to concern. One must continually try to guard against it. There are some old prisons which are not so secure, and of course escapes from these also take place.

The hon. member for Westdene touched upon a very important matter, a matter which lies very close to my heart and this is the question of children’s courts and child care commissioners. He asked that magistrates should be kept in the children’s court long enough to acquire the necessary knowledge of the Act and the local circumstances and that they should not be replaced by another magistrate every now and then. That is what we are trying to do. The present Secretary in particular is in full agreement that we must try to establish a kind of family court where one can see the child in his correct context and where the magistrate will in point of faot be the family head, in the case of broken families. We are working in that direction, andI am glad that the hon. member raised this matter here. The Children’s Act is of course being administered by another Department. All that I have to do of course is to make magistrates available to act as child care commissioners. As I understood the hon. member, he would like them to serve in the children’s courts permanently and that other magistrates should not be appointed every now and again to serve as child care commissioners. This is a matter to which the Department is already giving attention.

*Mr. F. HERMAN:

This morning the hon. member twice referred scornfully to “the bulging walls of the prisons”. How she can make a statement like that, is beyond me. Up to now she has not given us any indication of what she would regard as a normal number of inmates in our prisons. It is true that on 9th February this year she did ask the Minister for certain particulars in regard to the number of inmates in prisons. She was given those particulars, and on 12th February the following appeared in The Cape Times in a leading article, what is more—

It emerged in reply to questions by Mrs. Helen Suzman that the numbers in prisons had risen by about 70 per cent in a year …
Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Rubbish! I did not say that.

*Mr. F. HERMAN:

I quote further—

… from 339,000 in 1965-’66 to more than 568,000 in the subsequent year.

The hon. member says that this is rubbish; that she did not say this. I know that she did not say this, but I want to point out how these figures are twisted to give one the idea of “bulging prison walls”. The question put by the hon. member was used by The Cape Times to bring the public under a wrong impression. What happened here is very serious because this article is bruited abroad; what is more, it was a leading article. What happened here, was that The Cape Times did not make a proper distinction between persons who had been convicted in court and persons who had been detained. Certain detainees are released on bail; others are discharged and others are acquitted by the courts. Not all detainees are convicted. But The Cape Times compared the number of persons convicted in one year, namely 339,000, to the number of persons detained the next year, and The Cape Timescame to the conclusion that there had been a collosal increase of 70 per cent in the prison population. Mr. Chairman, if our prison population is going to increase by 70 per cent in one year, it will only take a few years before the hon. member for Houghton and all of us will also be in prison In that case the whole of South Africa will be in prison. If The Cape Times had compared the number of persons convicted in one year to the number of persons convicted in the following year, it would have obtained an increase of 4.6 per cent, which is the correct percentage. The percentage increase in the case of detainees can also be calculated; this may be somewhat higher but unfortunately I do not have the figures here. I contend that this kind of deception brings discredit upon our country. It may behove that newspaper to publish the true state of affairs. In addition I want to refer to another wrong impression created by that article. The article continues—

Yet by the fact of being sent to prison, these people are made criminals and gaol, instead of being, as for white people, the ultimate disgrace, becomes a matter of chance like the weather, not the result of a life of crime deliberately chosen but an everyday hazard.

The article wants to suggest that it is a treat and a pleasure for our police to catch persons and to fill our prisons. This is very far removed from the truth. At all times our police and our judiciary try to keep the number of inmates in prisons as low as possible. In addition our prison facilities compare favourably to the facilities of the very best prisons in the world. You will recall, Mr. Chairman, a sensational court case a few months ago when people who had tried to besmirch our prisons, were put on trial. The outcome of that court case was that our prisons emerged with a clean record. We can be proud of our prisons.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

That case is sub judice.

*Mr. F. HERMAN:

I also want to refer to prisons and cells in other parts of the world. You will recall, Sir, a recent report dealing with a cell measuring 6 ft. by 8 ft. in one of the African states to the north in which 20 persons had been detained.

*An HON. MEMBER:

Shame!

*Mr. F. HERMAN:

It is indeed a shame. We may safely maintain that our prisons are streets better than prisons in other parts of the world.

Mr. Chairman, my time has nearly expired. I still want to say something about the question of parole. The principle of release on parole probably is one of the finest principles embodied in our Prisons Act. Along these lines we try, in the first place, to keep people out of our prisons. Many people regard it as a disgrace to land in prison and when they are released from prison, they have a kind of inferiority complex. That is why it is such a good thing to assist those people to be released on parole. In the second place, if people should land in prison, they might come under the bad influence of other prisoners, and therefore it is to their advantage to be kept out ofprison. We also reed those people as workers in the country. We can utilize their services very usefully. If people are released on parole, it greatly benefits their families as well. Therefore I want to ask that the system of release on parole should be made much more flexible and easier. We have, of course, three groups of persons under sentence. For the purposes of parole prisoners are classified into three groups which are, firstly, those sentenced to a term of imprisonment of four months; secondly, those sentenced to a term of imprisonment varying from four months to two years; thirdly, those sentenced to a term of imprisonment exceeding two years. In the case of people who have been sentenced to a term of imprisonment of less than four months, it is at the discretion of the commissioner to release them on parole. They may be released on parole as soon as they arrive at the prison. As regards the second group, i.e. those who have been sentenced to a term of imprisonment varying from four months to two years, they have to serve one half of their term of imprisonment before they may be released. The present position is that the Prisons Board recommends the release of those people on parole through the commissioner to the Minister. and only then may they be released. This really is a somewhat cumbruous procedure and I want to ask whether an improvement cannot be made so as to enable these people to be released on parole sooner. As regards the term of imprisonment which they have to serve before they may be released on parole, I also want to ask whether an improvement cannot be made so as to enable these people to be released on parole sooner. I have in mind young people in particular who may land in prison not entirely through their own fault. It often happens that a man lands in prison as a result of circumstances, and I should like to plead for that type of person. Prisoners who have been sentenced to a term of imprisonment exceeding two years, also have to serve a specified term of imprisonment before they may be released on narole, and in this connection I should also like to ask whether a more flexible method of releasing them on parole cannot ‘be introduced. Then we also have what is known as daily parole. This relates to people who have served part of their sentence and who are allowed out on daily parole towards the end of their term of imprisonment. This is a very good form of parole but sufficient use is evidently not being made of this form of parole, although it already is in operation. I also want to ask whether a more flexible method cannot be devised so that more of these people may be released on parole. They can be employed usefully. During the day they can work and at night they can go back to the cells where they will again be protected. They will be employed and will therefore be able to support their families, and perhaps their families may be allowed to visit them at their work.

A system like that will (be very useful, both for them and for society.

Mr. W. V. RAW:

Mr. Chairman, I want to come back to certain matters affecting liquor and hotel legislation. I want to start immediately by saying I am sure the hon. the Minister will be pleased to hear that I have had no complaints from Fedhasa, the official hotel organization, this year; so either the Minister has trained them or they must be very satisfied.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE:

They sent me a telegram congratulating me.

Mr. W. V. RAW:

Fine. Then they are either satisfied or trained; in any case, they have no complaints. However, many individual people have approached me and the points which I wish to raise are problems which I believe affect far more than the few individuals who have raised them with me. The first point I want to come t-o is the speech of the hon. member for Stellenbosch, who referred to and said he was satisfied with the changed drinking pattern in South Africa. I want to say just the opposite. I want to say I am deeply concerned about the current trend in the drinking pattern, and I would have thought the hon. member for Stellenbosch would have been concerned too.

Mr. H. H. SMIT:

I am pleased with certain aspects only.

Mr. W. V. RAW:

This particular aspect I should have thought would have worried the hon. member. Up to June, 1967, I find the South African consumption of the weakest alcoholic drink, namely beer, dropped in the quarter preceding that date by as much as 20 oer cent. Beer contains only 4.5 per cent alcohol whilst spirits contains 43 per cent abohol and natural wine 12 per cent. Beer is a healthy drink, contains the least alcohol of all. and is good for the health of our youth, yet its consumption dropped, as I say, by 20 ner cent. The consumption of natural wine increased by 16.4 per cent.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE:

Which report are you quoting from?

Mr. W. V. RAW:

These are figures from a rer>ort. entitled “An Analysis of the Consumption of South African Alcoholic Liquor. Anr-il to June. 1966, and April to June, 1967”. This was compiled by the South African Breweries Institute and is dated 14 November. 1967. Moreover, the consumption of spirits prepared from the grace has reduced by 12.5 per cent, whilst the consumption of spirits manufactured from other ingredients, that is non-grape spirits, has gone up by as much as 54 per cent. That trend continued during last year and I think any sociologist will agree that the drinking pattern of the youth to-day has steered away from beer towards the consumptiontion of white spirits, cane spirits and vodka particularly. They do not drink the spirits from the grape so much, they prefer the white spirits, which to-day are so much cheaper than beer. I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to plead with his colleague the Minister of Finance and with the Government to protect the youth of South Africa from this dangerous trend, a trend away from a reasonably healthy drink with a low alcoholic content to a high-alcoholic content drink containing over 40 per cent alcohol and a drink which is not even assisting the wine farmer.

If we compare the increased, consumption of natural wine with the decreased consumption of beer we see an overall decrease in these figures of 5.6 per cent in lighter beverages, lighter liquor. That is balanced fairly evenly now, but the fact, the inescapable fact is that our youth to-day are not drinking beer for the simple reason that they cannot afford it. For 13c or 14c one can buy a tot of liquor with far more alcohol in it than in a pint of beer which costs 20c or 21c or even more. So they are turning away from beer. That is a fact. Anyone will notice it. I believe it worries all parents of young lads. We are forcing our youth because of our liquor and taxation systems, as well as our attitude to liquor affairs as a whole, to drink hard tack. I say the natural drink, particularly for young sporting lads, is a glass of beer, but very few of them can to-day afford to drink it. So I cannot join with the hon. member for Stellenbosch, who seems to accept a swing away from grape products and away from beer towards to hard tack—hard tack which is not even coming from the grape.

I want to deal for a moment with the question of the control of hotels. I will not repeat the old argument, the old plea I have been making here year after year, namely to remove hotels from the National Liquor Board and place them under the Hotel Board. However, I want to plead that one group should be so transferred. Those hotels with which the National Liquor Board has had its fun, those hotels which it has classified, hotels which have met all the conditions laid down and who conform to the requirements, should not, I suggest, have to come back every three years to be reclassified. I say they should be placed under the control of the Hotel Board, inspected in the normal course by the grading inspectors, and thereafter they should be treated as permanent institutions. They should not be kept on a temporary basis, coming back to the National Liquor Board after every three years. The board has basically physical qualifications.

Let it continue to deal with the liquor licence, the bar, the off-sales, and so on, I will not argue on that point. But once a hotel has met all physical demands, then the body which deals with service, with general management, and with matters of that nature concerning the hotel should be the Hotel Board. I want to plead with the Minister to release from the National Liquor Board those hotels which are qualified and which have become registered and now fall under the control of the Hotel Board. In this way we will at least reduce the dual control of these two bodies, if the Minister is not prepared to abolish it altogether. As the Minister knows, the National Liquor Board lays down its requirement, but these are changed from time to time. Every now and again it comes up with something new. It seems to be building an empire.

The Minister and the board are even interfering now with the local liquor licensing boards; laying down conditions; refusing to let them have non-white entertainers; demanding this, demanding that; a toilet must be situated in a particular place, things which were not laid down in the original schedules but which are added as the National Liquor Board thinks of them. The board apparently suddenly thinks, “Well, this will be a good thing to apply”, and so they add an additional requirement. I believe once an hotel has met the basic requirements then the way it is run should be controlled by a body which understands the running of hotels, namely the Hotel Board. I have not the time to quote from it but I glanced through the March issue of Hotelier and Caterer. If we look at the index we see the item: “Non-liquor Hotels Quizzed in Bid for easier Grading Rules—1,000 still to be Classified.” We find in it: “Let Hotel Board take control, Natal hoteliers plead.” We also find: “Better spread of hotels, Minister in a dilemma.”

We see that a Cape meeting is told the same thing I have just raised, and so on and so forth. In every sector of the trade there is a feeling that once they have met conditions required for their licence, the Hotel Board is the body which is best qualified to control the running of those hotels. I give up my fight for the complete abolition of dual control. I accept the position for now. But I plead with the Minister to make a gradual abolition. Let then the National Liquor Board deal with liquor. That is what it is, it is a liquor board. Let it deal with liquor and liquor licences, but let it not deal with hotels and the running of hotels as far as it service to the public is concerned.

The Minister has on a number of occasions said he is going to streamline the Act. But in fact it is becoming more and more complicated and we are having more and more amendments. I do not want to deal with the coming General Law Amendment Bill or with the Minister’s statement. That I believe can best be debated when the Bill comes up. But I would plead with him to look again at the simplification of the Liquor Act. It requires streamlining so that we. can get it consolidated. Instead of having it in the form of a vast complicated web, it should be brought down to a simple system of control. [Time expired.]

*Mr. T. LANGLEY:

Mr. Chairman, it is a fact that our administration of justice in South Africa is held in very high esteem in the world. It is also a fact that that esteem is due to the quality of the men who are concerned with the administration of justice, and also, I believe, particularly to the standard of education in law. All the jurists, all the persons who find themselves in the field of law in South Africa to-day, are persons who have followed the same difficult, hard road until now. Amongst other things, they were obliged to master Latin. Now I wish to differ with my colleague in the legal profession, the hon. member for Heilbron, in that he pleaded for the abolition of Latin to-day. I also want to differ with my old class-mate, the Secretary for Justice, about the same matter.

It is so that Latin is the language of the oldest sources of our Roman-Dutch Law, and I should like to emphasize the “Roman Law” part, because that is actually what our Roman-Dutch Law has developed from. I want to make the statement that one can never make a really thorough study of our law without having a basic knowledge of Latin. I want to make the statement that Latin is indispensable for at least three groups of legal scientists, namely the university lecturers, the Judges and the Appeal Judges, and perhaps to a lesser extent the advocate. The hon. member for Heilbron to-day referred to the hon. the Chief Justice Mr. L. C. Steyn as an outstanding jurist in South Africa. I want to tell the hon. member for Heilbron that no lawyer will be able to read Mr. Justice Steyn’s standard work “Die Uitleg van Wette” without having a knowledge of Latin. I want to suggest that no student will be able to pass Roman Law without having taken Latin. From the plea that Latin should be abolished it must then follow that Roman Law, which is one of the requirements for the degree of Ll.B. or B.A. (Law), must also disappear. I want to say that I wonder whether it would not later be found that if Latin should be abolished it would in fact be impossible to satisfy the minimum requirements for the Ll.B. degree. I cannot imagine any subdivision of our common law in which Latin phrases do not crop up. Even the Secretary could not refer to Latin in his report without bringing in two Latin words. Professor Joubert, the Dean of the Faculty of Law of the University of South Africa, aligns himself with the Secretary for Justice, but he could not do so without using Latin words. The name of the magazine of the Faculty of Law of Unisa, Codicillus, is in Latin. In four of the articles in this magazine Latin is used to a greater or lesser extent.

I want to concede that Latin is not absolutely essential for all facets of our legal profession and legal science. But nor is an Ll.B. essential for all facets of the legal profession. An Ll.B. is only required for admission to the Bar, and therefore it is indirectly also a requirement for appointment as a Judge. But I think it is inconceivable that one can become a university lecturer in law without having an Ll.B. degree. In order to make such a profound study of our law Latin is essential. I know it is the position that Latin is no longer taught at all our high schools and that there are problems in this connection. But all our universities offering courses in law meet the requirements by offering a beginner’s course in Latin in some form or another which will enable a student to master Latin I. We in South Africa should take care that we do not try to make things too easy. We have all observed what has taken place abroad in the past few weeks. One of the questions occurring to me is whether all this is not partly due to the fact that we want to make everything in life easier and less complicated and want to remove challenges that exist. I am an Afrikaner. It has been said that it is the Afrikaners who suffer as a result of Latin being a requirement. I cannot agree with that.

I also want to touch upon another remark made by the hon. member for Heilbron. He advocated that regional magistrates should be appointed to the Bench. He made the point that it was frustrating for magistrates that they can rise no higher than the position of regional magistrate. I cannot agree that that is a frustrating limit for a regional magistrate. I have always regarded promotion to regional magistrate as being the ultimate goal for the prosecutor and the magistrate. I want to say that it is a noble aspiration. I have great respect and appreciation, and I want to express it, for the quality and the work of our regional magistrates. They are outstanding men. But I do not think that they should feel frustrated in this regard. The question occurs to one: Suppose the Bench is filled by regional magistrates, can there not be frustration for advocates as well because they can no longer be promoted to that position?

Reference has been made to the legal systems of other countries and it has been suggested that by analogy we should follow the same systems as far as appointments to the Bench are concerned. I think that our system differs from those systems, for example from those on the Continent, where an official is trained right from the beginning to administer justice. They are trained for the Bench. That is not the case in this country. Here a person is trained as a prosecutor, and subsequently promoted to the position of magistrate. Our system with its magistrates and judges, its prosecutors, attorneys-general and their staff, its Bar and Side Bar is functioning well at present. I do not think it is reason enough to change a system merely for the sake of opening doors. I think there should be a good reason to change a system that is functioning well. A system may be changed if it is not functioning well. I cannot see that the proposed changes will solve the major problem at the moment, i.e. the problem of manpower. I can only see that abolishing Latin is going to cause more officials to leave the Department of Justice in order to join the private profession. I can only see further vacancies being created where there is already a shortage, if regional magistrates are promoted to the Bench.

I want to conclude by saying that we are proud of our courts, our administration of justice and the standard of their work. [Time expired.]

Mr. M. L. MITCHELL:

Mr. Chairman, I am also very sorry that the hon. member’s time expired when it did, but I will continue with the speech that he was making for him. I want to say that, while I do not profess to have the same views as the hon. member about Latin, I have an open mind on that. I am sure the hon. member for Transkei will deal with this dispute. But I do want to congratulate the hon. member who has just sat down for taking the view that he has taken about our Supreme Court, our judges. I hope that the hon. the Minister is going to deal with this question as to how our judges are to be found, how one qualifies to be a judge. This question raised its ugly head some time ago with one of the hon. the Minister’s predecessors. The suggestion then was made that magistrates should be appointed to the Supreme Court bench, that they should become judges, as the hon. member for Heilbron suggested, on the argument that they have a great experience of sitting on the bench. True, at the time it was said that they should only become judges in the Criminal Division and that the Supreme Court should be divided into a civil and a criminal division, and one could find advocates to staff the civil division, and that the magistrates were really far more qualified to fill the bench in the criminal division. This was an unfortunate moment in our legal history. After the Minister who was then responsible became the present Prime Minister, this Minister was appointed. I hope that, as this matter has been raised by a front bencher, and one is entitled to take his suggestion seriously, the hon. the Minister will deal with this question, as it has now come before the House twice from people on his side of the House. Let us examine the reason for the plea of the hon. member for Heilbron. He did so in reply to a suggestion that I made that magistrates should be treated differently from ordinary public servants. They are different. The hon. the Minister agrees. They should be paid more. To have the standing, the power, the authority and the responsibility that magistrates have and yet after nine years on the bench their optimum is R4,200, is ridiculous for a man in that position. The next step one goes to, starting from R4,200 and going up to R5,100, is that of a Senior Magistrate. I know the hon. the Minister says they are in fact all part of the public service. But they cannot complain. They have to complain to the Public Service Commission, which has to treat everyone in the same way. But if the hon. the Minister can do something or persuade his colleagues to do something about this, then the Public Service Commission does not matter.

This hon. Minister can persuade his colleagues to do something. Unless this is done, nothing will be done. But what I want the hon. the Minister to do, is to repudiate the suggestion made by the hon. member for Heilbron that there is any likelihood or chance of magistrates being appointed to the Supreme Court bench. As the hon. member for Waterkioof has said, we have here a system. We have a Supreme Court. We have judges who have no peer in this world. Throughout everything that has happened, no matter how we have disagreed upon and changed all sorts of institutions, standing out head and shoulders above everything else, has been our Bench. Why do we have such a good Bench? The answer is very simple: The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The system produced the judges. It has continued to produce them, and it will go on producing them. If we are going to fiddle or play around with that, I feel that we are going to strike at something very basic, at one of the greatest things that our heritage has given us in these difficult times. Why do we appoint judges the way we do? We take the cream of the Bar, this old profession, with its tradition, its independence and integrity, with the experience and the ways of the profession. We take the cream off the top and they are put on the Bench. Therefore one finds judges who are independent completely, whose whole career and environment has been one of being absolutely impartial, espousing not only one cause but all the causes they have to apply their minds to.

I do not want to go into the history of this new attitude too far, because it is not very pleasant and I do not want to cast aspersions on anyone. But there was a time when a Chief Magistrate took silk. I see in the paper to-day that he has retired from the law. A Chief Magistrate took silk at the very time that one of the hon. the Minister’s predecessors was toying with the idea of in fact changing the Supreme Court into a Criminal and a Civil Bench. All these questions are related one to the other. Then one finds a suggestion, for example, in the report of the department that—

The Board for the Recognition of Examinations in Law, established in terms of section 16 duodec of the Universities Act … representative of the administration of justice as a whole, but controls the minimum standards for magistrates and attorneys only, and not for advocates.

The suggestion is that perhaps it ought to be given the control of that as well. The Admission of Advocates Act laid down the qualifications. It is for this Parliament to decide whether those qualifications should stay or whether they should not. But let us not interfere now with the education qualifications for advocates. Let us leave that where it is and where it has been all these years, all these centuries, namely, with the profession itself and the court itself. Let us not hand this over to a board to decide what sort of qualifications advocates and prospective judges should have. Let us leave it where it is, to be determined by the profession itself, which is best qualified to decide these matters, and with the court, as the judges of every application for admission to the bar.

While I am on my feet, I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether the matter which was raised by the hon. member for Green Point should not really receive more attention, namely the matter of Chief Magistrates and their allowances. Chief Magistrates do not necessarily want to be entertained at all the various places they are asked to. But they are asked because they are the leading citizens in that area. They have to go. They do go, because it will be rude to refuse. They are asked, really, as a representative of the State. They feel, just like other people feel, that when someone stands them a drink, perhaps they ought to stand him one as well. They have to do it, and they do it. It is done out of their own pocket. I do not think it is fair, because they are asked there in their official capacity. This applies as much to Durban and presumably any other place as it does to Pretoria and Cape Town, because there are members of the diplomatic corps in Durban and in Johannesburg

The hon. the Minister also used the phrase “political cases”. I wonder if the hon. the Minister can explain to me what a political case, because I seem to recall …

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE:

I took the words from the opposite side.

Mr. M. L. MITCHELL:

I can remember when the person to whom the hon. the Minister is referring asked questions of his predecessor in regard to convictions in political cases, the hon. the Minister’s predecessor said that he did not know what she meant. [Time expired.]

*Mr. L. LE GRANGE:

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to go into the discussion of the question of Latin too deeply, but with all respect I want to say that I differ with both the hon. member for Heilbron and the hon. member for Waterkloof in what they said. I do not want to enlarge too much on this, but the Secretary for Justice advocates certain changes in attitude as far as the study of Latin is concerned. He does not say specifically what he would suggest at this stage, but only states his view in general terms. In reply to this Prof. Joubert of the University of South Africa, for example, said the following (translation)—

Most academics, even most lecturers in law, whose knowledge of Latin is fairly limited will probably grumble with indignation at reading Mr. Oberholzer’s words. Have they themselves really taken stock of the almost senseless position in regard to the requirement of Latin for law students to-day? One need not, as Prof. R. G. McLaren, himself an authority on Latin, said on occasion that he did, play the part of devil’s advocate and plead that Latin should be abolished if one wants to point out the untenability of the present situation.

He then discussed the present situation and concluded by saying—

The position being as it is we do not know whether the Secretary for Justice is not right.

In this connection I should just like to suggest that the use of Latin in our inferior courts by our magistrates, our prosecutors and our Law Society is absolutely non-existent. The requirement of having to study Latin keeps many persons out of the legal profession because they do not have the opportunity at school to study Latin, and people who do not have a particular flair for languages are also being kept out of this profession. We cannot find staff for the Department of Justice, we cannot obtain persons to act as prosecutors and we cannot obtain people for the attorney’s profession either. They are kept out by this study requirement, a study on which they have to spend money and at least two years and which is absolutely worthless to them in practice later on. I took Latin for my Ll.B. studies and in all the years that I was attached to the Department of Justice and that I practised as an attorney, I never found it necessary once to apply any knowledge of Latin in connection with practical matters in court. I am not referring to knowledge of a few general dictums and a few elementary sentences which may perhaps be necessary to understand certain things better. Translations of these are easy to come by. I therefore think that we should think in the direction of abolishing Latin as a qualification for appearing and acting in the inferior courts. However. I do not think that we should think of abolishing Latin as a qualification for appearing in the superior courts. The persons appearing in the superior courts are supposed to be specialists in the profession and I can testify from experience that they are indeed specialists. We also have to pay them specialist fees. When one has to pay specialist fees to someone, one at least wants to receive specialist knowledge from him. I should like to argue that Latin should be retained as a required qualification for the purpose of appearing in superior courts, because they have to make a more profound study there, which is expected of them by the public and also by the courts where they have to appear. That is what I want to say in connection with the aspect of Latin.

Before discussing what the hon. member for Durban (Point) said in connection with the liquor question, I should like to touch upon a matter which I have been specially asked to raise in this debate. The hon. the Minister is aware of it. A large section of our public is becoming concerned about the continual maiming of young children by dogs. For quite some time now reports have been appearing in the Press almost every week of women and children having been bitten and mauled by dogs. Many of these attacks are by Alsatians, and to a lesser extent other breeds. I myself am particularly fond of dogs, but here we have a type of animal which is apparently giving rise to fear amongst our people. In conversations one finds that ladies tell one that they are afraid to take a walk with their children, because some neighbour of theirs has some dog or other. I know there are regulations which provide that one is not allowed to keep a ferocious animal within a municipal area and that the police may act in such cases. However, it appears to me as though it will in fact be necessary to lay down under what conditions it is safe to keep these animals. A decision can then be made on this basis. When I discussed this idea with a colleague to-day, he asked me whether it was not my views that one should bite back. I do not think we should take that view. A moment ago I consulted one of my advocate colleagues about a Latin expression, and the position is that we can say that the actio de pauperie still exists and is still applicable and that a person is liable to pay compensation if his dog has acted contra natura sum. That is about as far as my Latin goes. However, this is a very serious matter which I have been requested to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister.

The hon. member for Durban (Point) mentioned matters concerning the Central Liquor Board and the classification of hotels. I do not differ with him to any great extent, except that I think that the provision that the classification of a hotel should be revised every three years is a good one. The human factor is always present. A person goes to a lot of trouble in having his hotel classified, and not everyone will see to the regular annual repair and maintenance of his premises. That is one of the reasons for this provision in this Act, namely to prevent hotels where people have to stay from falling into disrepair. I therefore think that this is a very good provision. I think the hon. member for Durban (Point) would do well to take the trouble one day of himself handling an application for classification of an hotel right from the beginning. He himself should go to the chairman of the National Liquor Board or to his staff and discuss the matter with them and carry out the entire classification of the hotel. He would then be less concerned. I am saying this in a friendly spirit and with all due respect to the hon. member. What is the real position? I do not want to discuss the regulations in this regard now, because these are very clear and really not complicated. The requirements of the regulations—and this we have seen in this House by now—are not so very difficult for the licensee to comply with. Another important aspect is, and I say this gladly, the helpful attitude of the chairman of the National Liquor Board and his staff in this matter. I have had the privilege of doing same of the hotel classifications. My experience is that one finds particularly helpful people there who often turn mountains into molehills after one has discussed matters with them. I should also like to appeal to our people to contact these officials for advice at an earlier stage. They will then find these matters far easier to handle and that far less cost is involved. I know of a specific case where a person—the province does not matter now; this was told to me in confidence, but I can give the following information—was advised that he would have had to spend a tremendous amount of money in order to get his country hotel classified. The owner travelled to Pretoria and after talking to the chairman of the National Liquor Board for about half an hour he realized that it would only cost a few thousand rands to make all the alterations and to get his hotel classified. By the time he left there his mind had been completely set at rest. I think our people will profit by contacting this Board in connection with this planning at an earlier stage. [Time expired.]

Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister in replying to me on the question of the allowing an hotel to establish its off-sales premises in an area in competition with other businesses referred to the present Prime Minister’s speech of 1965. I would like to refer the hon. the Minister to the reply given by the hon. the Prime Minister in 1963 when the hon. the Prime Minister said—

An hotel cannot erect an off-sales department wherever it likes, because other licences must be taken into consideration and therefore he would probably not allow him to put his off-sales department next to another licensee. I think this must be handled in a reasonable way.

In respect of the case I referred to. the hon. the Minister ended up by saying “Dit was ’n ongelukkige geval”. “Dit is baie ongelukkig” for the competitors who have been established in that area, in one case since 1928, and I certainly hope that the board will be most careful in future in seeing that vested rights are protected. We will then not have the same thing as happened in this case where a new licence was issued for a site only about 28 yards from another licensee. 88 yards from another and also near a third. All of these were in the same neighbourhood. I certainly hope that the hon. the Minister will give his attention to this aspect in the future.

I also want to know from the hon. the Minister what is meant by political cases, because it affects this question of legal aid. The horn the Minister said in reply to me that assistance is given in all political cases and that the State pays for the defence. I did not know that and I would like to know what type of cases assistance is given to. The hon. the Minister, in reply to the hon. member for Durban (North) who asked him what a political case was, said that he was only using the term which I had used. That is right, but where did I get that term from? I got it in this publication by the Department of Foreign Affairs.

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE:

Is it used in that book?

Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

Yes, and the name of the book is “South Africa and the Rule of Law”. It says—“Defence of persons accused of offences with a political background”. It then goes on to deal with these particular offences. We would like to know what the offences are for which the State provides free defence. I think it is most important that the country should know so that people who are accused of those offences will know when they can get free legal aid.

I do not want to go into a long discussion on Latin here now. The matter has been raised by several hon. speakers. I want to remind the House that when this matter was raised here before by way of a Bill by the previous Minister of Justice, Mr. Swart, it was then made a non-party measure. It was intended to be treated as a non-party measure. There was opposition on both sides to the measure and there was support on both sides for the measure. I happened to lead the opposition to the measure on this side as a member of the Council of the Law Society. I have, however, changed my opinion and now support the abolition of Latin. Although I do not like, to see it go, we have to be practical. The position is simply that we do not get the young lawyers and articled clerks appearing to-day, because they do not have Latin. Several young men have told me that they would have liked to take up law but that they do not know Latin. I know others who have started their articles and who wrote their exams but cannot be admitted because they did not have Latin. It is amazing how people do struggle to get Latin. Even if they pass their exams they battle to get Latin. I have, therefore, taken the practical line and now say that I am prepared to support the abolition of Latin now. As far as the hon. member for Heilbron is concerned I think that his society in the Free State is the one which opposes the abolition of Latin. I think it is the Free State and Natal who are opposed to the abolition of Latin. I sincerely hope that the matter will be raised by the Law Societies again. The last time the matter was brought before this House the universities were the stumbling block. The universities refused to give the certificate unless students had passed Latin. The universities were the stumbling block previously. Unless the universities change their minds, we are going to have an uphill battle in this respect. As far as I am concerned. I hope that if the matter is raised again by way of legislation it will be treated as a non-party political matter. I will certainly give my support to it.

*The MINISTER OF JUSTICE:

Mr. Chairman, I want to refer first to the plea made by the hon. member for Potgietersrus for a more flexible system of parole. I want to assure him that the system is a very flexible one. At the moment I do not see my way clear to granting less restricted parole than exists at present. I do not want to elaborate on this matter, but I want to tell the hon. member that we must bear in mind that an offence was committed. We must remember that the police did their work by implementing the laws of the country. We must also remember that the court sat and that we had the prosecutors and the magistrates there. Therefore, if the presiding legal officer has imposed upon a person a term of imprisonment of six months or of one year, we cannot simply release such a person on parole. We may not undermine our system of law through the system of parole. Although we want to do upliftment work in the humanitarian sense, we must try to maintain a proper balance between the two systems.

I am pleased to say that the hon. member for Durban (Point) was not in such an aggressive mood as he usually is. He is concerned about the sales of beer. He compared the figures for a particular quarter with those of a previous quarter in the previous year. I would rather take a long-term view of the matter. We do in fact find that in the report of the Secretary for Justice. In Schedule B on page 2 it is shown how the sales of the various kinds of liquor have increased. It shows how the sales have increased over the period 1963 to 1966.

*Mr. W. V. RAW:

It was in 1967 that the changed duty came into operation.

*The MINISTER:

At this stage I just want to show the hon. member how the various quantities increased in 1966 in comparison with 1963. The sales of fortified wine increased by 34.7 per cent. The sales of spirits increased by 48.49 per cent, and those of unfortified wine by 29.73 per cent. The sales of malt liquor increased by 52.91 per cent. In other words, in the long run there has in fact been an increase in the consumption of beer.

*Mr. W. V. RAW:

Is that by volume?

*The MINISTER:

Yes, it is by volume.

*Mr. W. V. RAW:

But that is no comparison.

*The MINISTER:

Over the same period the same population consumed various kinds of liquor in various quantities. Of those the sales of beer were the greatest in volume.

Mr. W. V. RAW:

Please do not bluff yourself with those figures.

*The MINISTER:

The hon. member says I must not bluff myself, but I do not want him to bluff himself either. He should not think that beer is such an innocent beverage. The percentage of alcohol in brandy is 46 per cent. The percentage of alcohol in beer is 9 per cent at most.

*Mr. W. V. RAW:

No, it is 4.55 per cent.

*The MINISTER:

No, it is 9 per cent. If we bear in mind that there are 22 tots of brandy in a 26 fl. oz. bottle of brandy, we find that at a percentage of 46 per cent of alcohol, one tot of brandy gives one an alcohol intake of .504 oz. of alcohol, i.e. not taken neat, for water has been added, but that is the actual percentage of alcohol one has taken. If one has drunk one 13 fl. oz. pint of beer at an alcohol content of 5 per cent, then one has taken .65 oz. of alcohol. In other words, in reality the alcohol content of a pint of beer is higher than that of a tot of brandy; that is why it is by no means such an innocent beverage as the hon. member wants to suggest. The hon. member also requested that the Hotel Board should at a certain stage take over the work of the National Liquor Board. As soon as the National Liquor Board has classified all the hotels and seen to it that all of them are in order, it has to hand over its work to the Hotel Board, which would then have to see that the standards are complied with. If I understood the hon. member correctly, he said that he would not mind if the National Liquor Board continued to supervize matters relating to liquor.

*Mr. W. V. RAW:

Yes, that is what I said.

*The MINISTER:

But my point is this: I fail to see why the National Liquor Board has to be saddled with all the unpleasantness in connection with the classification of hotels. They have to raise the standard of hotels up to a certain level, and having reared the baby up to that stage, they have to hand it over to another body.

*Mr. W. V. RAW:

But it is no longer a baby.

*The MINISTER:

Yes, it is true that it is no longer a baby, but it is a child that has been reared for them by this board. This board has seen to it that there are hotels of a certain standard in this country. The lever it has been using, is liquor. It is the lever it will also have to use in future to ensure that those hotels maintain certain standards. If these matters have to be handed over to the Hotel Board, what control would the Liquor Board have over these hotels then? In that case the Hotel Board would have to undertake this work, even though it is not their function to ensure that hotels maintain certain standards. It is not their function.

*Mr. W. V. RAW:

But it is their function.

*The MINISTER:

I just want to tell the hon. member that it is not the intention to continue in future with the triennial classifications. We want to introduce a system whereby ordinary inspections will be undertaken. If it can be done satisfactorily with ordinary inspections, and if it is to the satisfaction of the National Liquor Board, we would be prepared to issue the reclassification certificate. This is a simplification of the system. The National Liquor Board would then retain the control over the hotels. It would also see to it that the conditions there are as it would like to see them in the case of a classified hotel. I am not referring to two, three, four or five star hotels, but only to ordinary classified hotels. Unfortunately I cannot agree with the hon. member that this division should take place.

The hon. member for Waterkloof made a strong plea for Latin as a requirement for the legal profession. The hon. member for Durban (North) nodded assent. We know the story of the baboon who had lost its tail and then wanted to make the other baboons believe that it was very fashionable. Then he told the others that they should also cut off their tails. It seems to me as though this matter is the exact opposite. These two hon. members are like baboons who came through with their tails intact. They retained their tails in the process, and now they want everybody who goes through this process, to try to retain his tail as well. That is what they are trying to do. I do not want to come out for or against Latin as a subject. I just want to say that I concur with the view held by the Secretary for Justice. Latin is a handy subject. If it were a general requirement for matriculation, i.e. a basic subject, just as Arithmetic is a basic subject, then I would say that there is a point in such an argument. But to say that one has to know Latin in order to practise in the magistrate’s court, or to become an advocate, is to my mind not quite correct. I know better than that, and I myself have Latin I, although I did not go further. I have never had any need for it. I readily agree with the hon. member for Potchefstroom where he said that he had never had any need for it. It was said that a knowledge of Latin was essential because of the Latin expressions one encountered in the legal profession. But one can simply learn such expressions and their meanings by heart. Let the researchers, the professors and such people study Latin. The hon. member for Durban (North) has Latin, and he is a senior advocate. I now ask him to read out to me a legal source in Latin.

Mr. M. L. MITCHELL:

I merely said that I had an open mind in regard to this question of Latin.

*The MINISTER:

I am sorry. I beg the hon. member’s pardon. In that case I say this to the hon. member for Waterkloof, and to those hon. members who supported his view. The little Latin one knows when one has taken Latin I at university, and it is easier to obtain a pass at one university than it is at another, is so slight that it is of absolutely no value or use to one. However, it is no use our arguing about that matter, because it is after all the universities which lay down the requirements for degrees. In the Act we lay down the following requirement for a practising advocate: The B.A. LL.B, degree. But the universities lay down what. is required for a B.A. LL.B. degree. It would be a bad day for us if we had to force the universities by way of legislation to award a degree which we lay down here for a certain profession. I do not think that we should do it. But I think Professor Joubert of the University of South Africa has commented in this regard, and his arguments are very much in the same direction. By and large he supports the views held by the Secretary for Justice. All that is needed, is for one university to say that they no longer lay down Latin as a requirement for the LL.B, degree, for then the others will be obliged to follow this example. Only one of them must have the courage to do so. As regards the B.Juris degree, which is a legal degree too, I think that there are at present four universities which offer this degree without laying down Latin as a prerequisite. I believe that it is merely a question of time before the universities themselves will decide to make Latin optional. Those who want to make a thorough study and wish to study the original sources, will be able to take Latin. But I do not think we should dictate to the universities that they should do this; this must originate voluntarily with the universities themselves.

Mr. G. F. VAN L. FRONEMAN:

In that case, is the Minister prepared to amend the 1964 legislation so that Latin will not be compulsory, so that, if a university were to decide that it will no longer lay down Latin for degree purposes, there would be no legislation obstructing such a step?

*The MINISTER:

I would rather not give the hon. member a reply to that at this stage. I would rather look it up first.

The hon. member for Durban (North) referred once again to the position in terms of which magistrates have to serve for nine years before they receive their maximum salary of R4,200. The question of remuneration is unfortunately, as I have already explained, a matter for the Minister of the Interior and the Public Service Commission. I have pleaded where I could do so, and in the case of the Attorneys-General we managed to effect an improvement, but one has to maintain a balance among the various services.

*An HON. MEMBER:

What about the magistrates who go to the Bench?

*The MINISTER:

I am pleased that the hon. member has mentioned that. At this stage I have no firm conviction one way or the other. I just want to tell the hon. member that there are magistrates who have B.A. LL.B. degrees, regional magistrates with years of experience, who compare very well with newly appointed Judges. I say that I am not committing myself one way or the other, but we must not think that because a person is a magistrate and because he has been on the Bench in the magistrate’s court, he is incapable of going further. There is another matter as well. We have the Attorneys-General who have been practising for years and years. Where could one find a better criminal Judge than an Attorney-General. The ordinary, average advocate, or even the senior advocate, really has less experience of criminal work than the Attorney-General has.

Mr. M. L. MITCHELL:

But what experience has the Attorney-General of defending anybody?

*The MINISTER:

From the nature of the case he does, of course, not have that experience, but I have an open mind as regards these things. I am not going to come out against it immediately. We have the case of two of our most outstanding Judges. One of them is the present Chief Justice and the other is Mr. Justice Botha, people who did not follow the normal course, but who are nevertheless outstanding jurists, who have given judgments which have become absolutely famous. We must not be obsessed with the practical side only, but further than that I should not like to go at this stage.

The hon. member for Potchefstroom mentioned cases of attacks by dogs. This is a matter which is a source of concern to the Department and myself. We ourselves are concerned about the various reports one receives about this matter. We had people who lodged complaints with us about this matter, and when we went into the matter, we found that it had been taken completely out of the hands of the Department of Justice. I think I have a note in regard to this matter. The legislative power in respect of the control over dogs has been entrusted to the respective provincial councils in terms of Item 1 of the Second Schedule to the Financial Relations Consolidation and Amendment Act, 1945, Act No. 38 of 1945, read together with section 4 of the Financial Relations Amendment Act of 1956, Act No. 70 of 1956. They are therefore exercising the control, and now we find that the various provincial councils have in turn entrusted this matter to the local authorities, but where there are no local authorities, as is the case in extra-urban areas, they still exercise such control. My Department took steps in regard to this matter. These cases occurred in the Transvaal, in Pretoria, and we approached the Administrator and drew his attention to this and asked for strict action, and, since there is more or less uniformity in this regard, we asked whether the Administrations of the other provinces would do the same, i.e. as regards the penal measure relating to criminal prosecution in respect of dog bite. The hon. member for Durban (North) knows what the civil procedure is, and in this respect I must once again make use of and display my terribly involved knowledge of Latin. In terms of the actio de pauperie and the Lex Aquilia …

*Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

How can you explain it briefly in English or in Afrikaans?

*The MINISTER:

Yes, that is my difficulty. You must remember that I am a Latin I student, and if I refer to the Lex Aquilia I know what its provisions are, but if I have to translate them, it is a different matter. The best I can do, is to say that it is a law that was passed by Aquilia.

*An HON. MEMBER:

And that is also quite correct.

*The MINISTER:

If I have to translate the phrase actio de pauperie, I must say that it is an action instituted on account of dog-bite. This merely goes to show what a limited knowledge of Latin one really has, but one does at least know what it is about. I therefore want to tell the hon. member for Potchefstroom that this is a question which is no longer in our hands, and should be raised with the provincial councils so that stricter control in respect of dogs may be exercised.

The hon. member for Transkei asked once again that caution should be exercised as regards the siting of off-sales premises. I want to give him the assurance that the Board is paying close attention to this matter. I grant the final approval, and in future I shall also pay attention to this particular aspect. I am sorry that this particular case slipped through. I hope this is the only one in regard to which there is really cause for complaint.

In conclusion he wanted to know what I had meant when I referred to political prisoners. Broadly speaking these are people who committed offences in respect of national security; these are all matters arising out of the Suppression of Communism Act and the Terrorism Act, such as banned organizations and everything that allegedly results from any national security measures taken by the Government. These are in point of fact the people to whom hon. members opposite usually refer as “political prisoners”, and in that pamphlet as well. People who have been charged with such offences are entitled to full representation.

*Mr. T. G. HUGHES:

Can they choose their own advocates or attorneys?

*The MINISTER:

Oh yes, they can, but we know what happened before. At that time they always chose one who was appointed by Defence and Aid, and whenever they were offered the services of another advocate or attorney, they refused them.

Votes put. and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 49,—Mines, R28,900,000; and Loan Vote G,—Mines, R730,000:

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

May I have the privilege of the half-hour? During the past 10 or 12 years this side of the House made a point of dealing extensively and prominently with the questions that have arisen in relation to pneumoconiosis on the mines, and I must say that over these years the changes that have taken place in our legislation have often been initiated from this side of the House. I know now that the hon. the Minister does intend to introduce a Bill for better benefits for pneumoconiosis sufferers and I am grateful for that. I have no intention this afternoon of going into details about pneumoconiosis. We will have an opportunity of dealing with this matter when the Bill comes before us. However, I am perturbed about one matter that stands in direct relationship to pneumoconiosis, and I wish to bring this to the notice of the Minister because I think it is very important. This is an extract from a meeting of the Federation of Mining Unions and the extract I want to bring to the notice of the Minister is the opinion expressed by one of the high officials of the Federation. In the course of his report the writer said that he felt that much research—he was dealing with pneumoconiosis research units—was being dodged simply because research into certain aspects of mining might reveal that additional complaints in the mining industry would be compensable, and consequently there was no desire on the part of the Chamber of Mines’ representative to pursue anything of this nature. Now, if that is what is happening, I would urge the Minister to go into this matter immediately and to see whether there is any obstruction on the part of anybody or of any group of persons in regard to further research into pneumoconiosis. I do not know what the facts are. I came across this as I was reading the report, but I feel that it is so important that I have to bring it to the notice of the Minister to make sure that the matter will be investigated.

The MINISTER OF MINES:

Which report is it?

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

This is the secretary’s report of the 5th Annual General Meeting of the Federation of Mining Unions. It is dated January. 1968; so it is fairly recent. I should like the hon. the Minister please to look into this matter to see whether this is factual.

Sir, it is just a year since the new monthly pay system was introduced on the mines. When it was brought in it was felt that it should be given a fair chance in the hope both that the miner would be able to earn a fair salary and that the productivity on the mines would be increased. A year has passed, and to my dismay I now find that there are certain expressions of opinion which point to the fact that all is not well under this system. The Minister will know about this and I would like him, if he is able to do so, to explain whether there are difficulties which cannot be ironed out. I have been told that there are certain mine managements which have not been enthusiastic about this scheme, and this might have militated against the smooth running and implementation of the scheme. And if that is so, I feel that there is something lacking in the liaison between the authorities and mine managements. I am certain that that can be rectified. I feel that it would be a pity if at this stage we were faced with any disruption whatsoever in the smooth running of the mines. I think it would be a great pity if this monthly pay system, with its possibility of increased productivity, were scrapped at this stage, because it would injure the economy of South Africa. A spokesman of the Amalgamated Engineers’ Union, for instance, has said that there are anomalies in the agreement which have not been ironed out and that there has been unnecessary procrastination which has also delayed final settlement. I would like the Minister, if possible, to tell the Committee if this is true. If it is and there are difficulties, would he together with the Minister of Labour try his utmost to have these matters settled as soon as possible? I have also read in the Press that the Federation is going to ask for the introduction of an industrial council. If that is going to take place, I do hone that it will not cause any disruption in the smooth relationship which is starting to come into being between the gold producers and the Mineworkers’ Union. I want to point out that if we are going to have a disruption in the productivity of the mines at this stage …

Dr. J. W. BRANDT:

Why talk about a disruption of productivity?

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

Sir, I am not getting into a political argument here. I am placing facts before the Minister and I am only doing so that if there are difficulties we can try to iron them out. I am not saying that difficulties do exist.

Dr. J. W. BRANDT:

Tell us about the disruption.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

Before I was interrupted by the hon. member I was saying that if there was going to be disruption it would cause tremendous harm to our economy. We know how delicate the balance is between payability of mines and non-payability. We know that the costs of production are going un—I will come to that in a moment—and we also know that if there is dissatisfaction either on the one side or the other, it will affect the output of the mines. I would also appeal to the hon. the Minister to see to it. even if it means that certain adjustments have to be made to the system which was introduced a year ago, that those adjustments, on both sides, are made as soon as possible. A trial period of a year is sufficiently long and by now we should know where the faults, if any, lie so that smooth progress can be made in future towards better working conditions for the miners and towards bigger productivity. I know, Sir, that it is only a matter of time before the price of gold will go up and I know how important it is for us to try to get every ounce of gold in our mines, especially those mines which are on the verge of being unable to mine low-grade ores. It is terribly important for us to get every ounce of gold out of the ground. Sir, when the price of gold goes up, the Minister of Finance must not forget what the mineworker is doing now, what he has done in the past and what the pensioner from the mines is entitled to get. Those are the persons, who, I think, should share in the bounty that is bound to come to this country when the price goes up. The hon. the Minister of Mines has told us what will happen if the price of gold went up. I say “when” the price of gold goes up. I was somewhat perturbed to hear the hon. the Minister of Finance say that in the event of an increase in the price of gold, the bulk of the benefit would accrue to him in the form of increased taxation: that taxation would probably increase to such an extent that there would be very little left for others.

Dr. J. C. JURGENS:

Can I take your word for it that the price of gold is going to go up?

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

The hon. member can take my word for it. I would encourage everybody to think as I do. Sir, I do not know whether the hon. the Minister has had talks with the hon. the Minister of Finance as regards further taxation on the mines, but I think the time has come for him to discuss this matter with the Minister of Finance and draw up the new taxation plan now, so that if the price of gold suddenly goes up, we will know how we are placed and what benefits will accrue to the mineworkers and the pensioners from the increased price of gold. If there is going to be a delay in the rise of the price of gold—and there may be a long delay—then we must also make sure that taxation does not cripple some of the mines which already have difficulty in mining low-grade ore. Sir, last year I pointed out to the House how much gold would remain underground and how much uranium would remain underground. I do not intend using those figures again, but I noticed from reports that whereas in 1965 the working costs were R5.74 per ton. in 1966 they went up to R6.02 per ton and that in 1967, according to the latest report, the costs have gone un to R6 15. With these steadily rising costs it is possible that more and more Iow-grade ore will remain underground, and if that happens then there is a strong possibility that uranium, which is closely associated with the production of gold, will not be mined in sufficient quantities, and this uranium will thon lie there unmined, representing a dead loss to us. In this country we cannot separate the production of uranium from gold. Looking at the records of the various mines, it appears to me that in order to make the mines pay to-day, they are taking the best out of the mines and that the low-grade ores are remaining behind. I would like to see the reverse take place. I would like to see the low-grade ore mined together with as much uranium as possible. The price of uranium to-day, as the hon. the Minister knows, is. very high and the demand cannot be met. Countries all over the world are demanding uranium and we must see that our stocks do not dwindle so that we are able to sell on the market. Sir, more will be said about the question of uranium by another hon. member on this side; so I will not dwell on that any longer.

Now I want to deal with a matter which I touched upon a year or so ago and that is the accident rate on the mines. I am perturbed about this and I am sure that the Minister is aware of the accident figures. I think this is a problem in which we all should take an interest and see if we cannot do something to bring down the rate of accidents on the mines, because we have also found that, unfortunately, there has been quite a considerable increase in the death rate through accidents on the mines. In 1966 726 people were killed on the mines; in 1967 the figure rose to 802. That means that 2½ people were killed every day on the mines, and that is a shocking accident rate. We know that the mine managements are doing what they consider to be a good job to bring down the accidents on the mines. I am not so sure, however, that a figure of 30.677 injured people in one year is a reasonable figure.

Dr. J. W. BRANDT:

Are you blaming the mine managements for that?

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

I want to know whether we cannot establish what factors cause this high accident rate. Papers have been written about it and statistics have been kept, but I wonder why this figure is still so high. Looking at the report of the Government Mining Engineer, I notice that he attributes a certain percentage of the accidents to laxity in carrying out the regulations. I want the Minister to know that the figures I have quoted here are in respect of accidents which have laid people off for 14 days or more. This excludes all the minor injuries. In arriving at the accident rate, they take into consideration the number of days which the person concerned is laid off as a result of the accident. I should like the Minister to tell us whether or not any investigation has been made into the question of fatigue, for instance. Has it been investigated whether most accidents occur at the end of shifts or at the beginning before the miner is conditioned to circumstances—Is regard being given to the physical fitness of a miner? Has it been investigated whether alcohol plays a part? Whether lighting underground plays a part? Whether conditions underground are such as to bring about fatigue easily? Whether the protective clothing of the miner is sufficient? I suggest that, in addition to what has been done already, more attention should be paid to making teams of workers conscious of the accident rate. I should like to see a bulletin being issued every week giving details of the number of people injured, the nature of the injuries, and the steps the mine managements have taken to avoid a recurrence of such accidents We also know that insecure hanging very often is the cause of accidents. In this connection I am a little bit perturbed to find in the report of the Mining Engineer comment on a disregard of the necessity of carrying out the prescribed regulations in this connection properly. I should like the Minister to go into this matter. Because my time is running out, I shall leave this matter at this point.

During the time still available to me, I should like to raise the question of the production of iron ore in this country. It has been said that Japan is to-day our largest purchaser of iron ore. As a matter of fact, 4.6 per cent of her requirements she buys from us. But if a certain report I have read is correct, she would buy far more than she is buying to-day. Certain statements have been made in this connection giving reasons for the drop in the sale of iron ore to Japan. I bring this report to the notice of the Minister so that he can tell us whether it is correct or not. According to this report, the entire production of iron ore m the Postmasburg area last year, i.e. 1.4 million tons, was exported to Japan. Every ounce of it was sold to Japan. This year, however, only 700,000 tons have been sold. This means a sharp drop in comparison with the previous year. Who is blamed? Here they bring in the Minister of Transport and allege that railage and harbour charges on iron ore are the highest in the world. Well, if that is correct, and if we want to stimulate the production and sale of our iron ore, then we have to tackle the Minister of Transport immediately to see whether freight rates on iron ore cannot be reduced. It is also being stated that our harbours are too small to berth the large ships required to convey iron ore to Japan. In addition, they say that loading is slow and that it is not on a 24-hour basis as it is in other parts of the world. The allegation is that at our harbours to-day not more than 14 hours are worked out of the 24. The ships are such that there is a delay in the loading into these ships. They also say that we must make provision to berth ships which can hold 80,000 tons of ore. Perhaps the Minister will be able to inform the House as to his ideas of getting a better sale for our iron ore, so that there will be no accumulation in any of our iron mines.

I just want to say one word now about sinkholes. I have not visited this area, and so am taking this information as it is given to me. I cannot confirm it without going there. I take it this is in the Carletonville area. I am told that—

Some of the boreholes …
The MINISTER OF MINES:

Who is saying that?

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

This is a private letter I received—

… in the Carletonville area are near schools, both in Westonaria and Carletonville. They are blowing out air furiously and, although Dr. Enslin’s committee have approached the Treasury for funds to give this organization a contract, the latter are putting things off until the next Budget, which may be too late.

This person telegraphed me to-day and he said that we must try and avoid another Aberfan disaster in the West Rand. This is rather frightening. I do not want it to be publicized, because I do not know what value there is in this statement. But I do say that investigation is necessary. There is equipment, I understand, which the Minister may know about, and it is being said that this equipment will be able to measure the diffusion of the probe they are making. The whole of the sinkhole area can be planned and by using this apparatus they can also find out, not only where the fissures are, but also the size of the cavities. More important, it can be shown that the fissures, the cracks through the overburden dribbles, can be stopped at strategic points or bends. Then, no matter what the state of the water table beneath, or the porousness above, the ground will be safe. I am going to give these documents to the Minister, and I would like him to go through them. He can, perhaps, tell me at a later date whether he is having this matter investigated.

Finally, I would, before I sit down, ask the Minister if he would be good enough to take the country into his confidence and tell us what progress has been made in the prospecting for oil. I understand full well that he cannot give us details about it. I am sure that the whole country is very keen on knowing what the position is in regard to oil, and whether we have had any success, or whether we are likely to have success in the very near future.

*The MINISTER OF MINES:

Mr. Chairman, I am not getting up to reply to that hon. member. I am sure that other hon. members still have various matters which they want to raise, new matters as well as matters which may possibly be connected with the ones raised by that hon. member. However, I am just getting up to inform the House in regard to two interrelated matters. The first is the negotiations in regard to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty which took place here in Cape Town last week, on 27th and 28th May. Hon. members have noted the speeches made by South Africa’s permanent representative at UNO and also the detailed exposition given by my colleague the hon. the Minister of Foreign Affairs. I have nothing to add to these, but as far as the Department of Mines is concerned, I just want to assure hon. members, and the country as well that in these talks the Department, and specifically the Atomic Energy Board, played a full part in the interests of the uranium industry and in the interests of nuclear power in general for South Africa. I shall not mention the names of the persons who took part, but they are persons who are in the very top positions in South Africa in regard to our nuclear power. The object of the talks was to try to obtain clarity for South Africa in regard to the scope and implications of the proposed treaty. It was particularly necessary to determine to what extent the pact would affect the interests of South Africa as regards its uranium industry and its generation of nuclear power. I am just mentioning this matter at this stage because I think it might be wise for us not to refer to it in this debate. The matter is still under consideration by both the international organization and South Africa. I want to content myself with saying, by way of summary, that through the Atomic Energy Board we are playing a full part in the interests of South Africa and will continue to do so in the future and, secondly, that South Africa, as one of the largest producers of uranium, has, as always, followed the policy and is still following the policy of marketing this strategic product under the conditions which will ensure the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons.

In the second place—and this is a matter which is to a certain extent connected with this—I feel that I owe it to this House to inform you about the report of the Atomic Energy Board about the possible utilization of nuclear power in the Republic. Hon. members have possibly seen in the Press that Dr. Roux of the Atomic Energy Board indicated that the report had been handed to me. This is the position, and the report is in my possession at present. I just want to inform hon. members briefly in regard to this report. The whole of the report, I may say in passing, deals with the peaceful utilization of nuclear power. One of the findings arrived at by the Atomic Energy Board in its report about the possible utilization of nuclear power in South Africa, is that nuclear power will become an economic undertaking in the Republic of South Africa by 1978. Perhaps I may just refresh the memories of hon. members by saying that this report was compiled by a committee of the Atomic Energy Board under the chairmanship of Dr. H. J. van Eck, and on which Dr. A. J. A. Roux, Dr. W. L. Grant, Mr. J. R. Colley, and also Dr. E. M. K. de Villiers and Mr. N. I van der Walt of the Electricity Supply Commission, Mr. W. A. Murray of the Department of Water Affairs and Mr. C. Rezelman of the South African Railways served.

The report is a result of a request which my predecessor in the Ministry of Mining, Minister Haak, addressed to the Atomic Energy Board in June, 1965, to investigate the possible utilization of nuclear power in South Africa. I want to add here that, in view of the enormous extent and the complexity of this matter, I really think that this report redounds to the credit of this committee. After the short period of three years, and this is short for this kind of thing, we now have this report before us which gives definite answers on several points which are important to South Africa. In the report, which will be issued on 1st July, the conclusion is reached that a nuclear power station with a capacity of between 200,000 and 350,000 kilowatts will be economic in its first year of operation in the Western Cape if it is put into full operation between 1978 and 1980. If no further expansion of the transmission system to the Western Cape is undertaken after 1978, additional nuclear power reactor units of the same size will have to be erected every two years to meet the increase in the demand for power in this region. If this additional provision has to be made by means of thermal power, it will be much more expensive than in the case of nuclear power. The report also states that in the foreseeable future it will not be possible to use nuclear power on an economic basis anywhere else in the country, except in Natal, where the position will be reviewed in the early seventies.

The introduction of nuclear power for the sole purpose of generating electrical power rests with the Electricity Supply Commission. As hon. members know, this is provided by law. The establishment of such a nuclear power-station would, however, take place under the Nuclear Installations Act and in consultation with the Atomic Energy Board. I am mentioning this because, in the first instance, it is a matter for the Electricity Supply Commission to decide upon, and after that it has to approach the Atomic Energy Board and, of course, the Government. Only nuclear power reactors which can be operated on natural uranium were considered in this investigation because South Africa does not have an enrichment plant and there is no sufficient guarantee at present that enriched uranium from overseas sources will be available at all times. Of all the natural uranium power reactors, the heavy water retarded and cooled type is at present regarded as the most suitable and economic under South African conditions. The enriched uranium reactor systems, which are so attractive from the capital cost point of view, will, however, be the subject of further study in the event of uncertainties in connection with a guaranteed supply of enriched uranium falling away in due course. I want to emphasize the words “fall away”, further to the remark I made about the uncertainty that enriched uranium will be available at all times at present. Although South Africa has large reserves of coal, they are, nevertheless, not inexhaustible, and the utilization of nuclear power will cause the life of the reserves mentioned to be prolonged. The Department of Planning is, in fact, undertaking a comprehensive investigation in this connection. I may tell hon. members that this investigation has reached an advanced stage and that I have already received a very brief interim report. I hope to make an announcement in this connection as soon as possible, but, unfortunately, I cannot release the report. The conservation of domestic water supplies required for cooling purposes at power-stations does not play an important part as regards the consideration of utilizing nuclear power. If the present experiments with “dry” cooling towers prove to be successful, as is in fact expected, the water supplies for the Eastern Transvaal power-station complex ought to be sufficient until the end of this century. The report also states that South African industries—and this is important—will be capable of providing approximately two-thirds of the content of even the first nuclear power-station, and that their contributions in respect of subsequent stations will increase steadily. No problems will be experienced in manufacturing nuclear fuel elements locally. A nuclear power station will be equipped with a suitable waste material treatment plant and radio-active waste material will be disposed of in such a way that no danger to the public will arise. Although atmospheric pollution is a problem which has not yet assumed serious proportions in South Africa, nuclear power will, nevertheless, contribute towards keeping this problem in check. It is estimated that the first nuclear power-station can be put into full operation approximately ten years after it is decided in principle to proceed with the project. This means that the first steps will have to be taken before the end of 1968. In this programme, sufficient time is allowed for the specialized training of personnel and other preparatory work. The possibility of using nuclear power for the desalination of sea water has also been investigated. It is clear, however, that on the basis of the nuclear desalination costs foreseen at the moment, there is no region in South Africa where fresh water obtained by this method can at present or will in the next decade, be able to compete with the price of water derived from natural sources. Improvements in the technology which will result in substantial reductions in costs may, however, advance the date on which nuclear desalination of sea water will become a paying proposition. Mr. Chairman, I am grateful to you for having afforded me the opportunity of informing the Committee in this regard, because I felt that I should do so as early in the discussion as possible.

*Mr. H. J. VAN WYK:

Mr. Chairman, in the course of my speech I shall refer to some of the matters raised by the hon. member for Rosettenville. We are very grateful for the information the hon. the Minister gave us just now. However, I do not want to deal at length with nuclear power at this stage This is a major development which will mean a great deal to the future of this country.

We were grateful to learn from the statement made by the hon. the Minister recently that certain benefits would be increased under the Pneumoconiosis Compensation Act. We are glad that relief is being granted to certain categories of pensioners where assistance is most needed. In this regard we have in mind particularly the pensions received by widows and children of pneumoconiosis sufferers, and the provision made to increase pneumoconiosis compensation. We are also glad of the fact that this will not be taken into account when the means test is applied in regard to old age and civil pensions. I feel the most important point, is that provision has been made now that the position will be rectified as far as mineworkers are concerned who qualified for compensation before 1962 and who, for certain reasons, are in receipt of pensions on a lower scale. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that we are very grateful that this anomaly is being done away with now. It has always been the duty of the State to certify and pay out compensation in respect of pneumoconiosis and tuberculosis to persons working in a dust-filled atmosphere in controlled mines. All the Governments in South Africa since 1911 accepted this responsibility.

*The CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. members on my left here must stop conversing aloud.

*Mr. H. J. VAN WYK:

Because this was the position it has always been easy to make a political football of this matter, but because we have always viewed this in a serious light it has always been solved outside the political arena. I want to express my appreciation towards the hon. member for Rosettenville who did not try to drag politics into this matter this afternoon. We have, therefore, found that the major legislation adopted in this House in regard to pneumoconiosis sufferers have always been agreed measures. It is interesting to note that no less than 19 Acts and amending Acts concerning this subject were dealt with in this House since 1911. To freshen the memory of the Committee I just want to say that the latest Act in connection with pneumoconiosis compensation was passed as an agreed measure in 1962. Certain amendments, which were of a more administrative nature, were passed in 1964. Apart from this legislation numerous commissions were appointed as well, and departmental investigations were instituted so that the Government could always be kept well-informed of the latest developments and the results of research carried out in this regard. As a matter of interest, I just want to say that no less than 11 select committees were appointed between 1912 and 1932. No less than five departmental and inter-departmental commissions of inquiry were appointed between 1935 and 1955 to investigate certain aspects of certifying and compensation as regards pneumoconiosis. No less than seven commissions were appointed between 1912 and 1952 for the purpose of investigating the incidence of silicosis and tuberculosis as well as other relevant matters. I mentioned these particulars to show that Governments never missed an opportunity of investigating what could be done to promote the interests of the mineworkers. Pneumoconiosis has always enjoyed the most serious attention of all the Governments in this country. This is how it should be, because pneumoconiosis is a much feared disease. It is a disease which sets in rapidly and develops mercilessly. It can be said gratifyingly, however, that the danger of pneumoconiosis has diminished considerably in recent times. In the first place, this we owe to the safer mining practices which are being applied and, in the second place, to the fact that legislation is introduced timeously as our knowledge of the disease increases and, lastly, to the strict supervision exercised over mining especially by the Department of Mines in regard to mining practices. This supervision provides, inter alia, for proper ventilation to be installed in the mines so that the dust filled atmosphere is kept to a minimum. Although the incidence of this disease has abated considerably owing to the application of these principles, certifying and compensation still remains an important task. I say this because I feel that we have not succeeded in finding a water-proof method of identifying pneumoconiosis. For this reason it should remain our object to identify in some way or other every mineworker who contracts the disease as early as possible. I want to suggest that the methods applied up till now have all been fallible. Radiological tests, the lung function tests and the relevant clinical record of the mineworker have failed to provide us with a water-proof method to identify the disease. There are still far too many cases where it is found at a post-mortem that the persons suffered from pneumoconiosis in some degree or other. In this connection I want to refer to the latest report of the Medical Buro for Mineworkers for the period of 1st April, 1966, to 31st March, 1967. The report states that from a total of 357 post-mortems. 147 cases had pneumoconiosis with less than 20 per cent, 64 cases had pneumoconiosis with between 20 and 50 per cent. 11 cases had pneumoconiosis and tuberculosis and one only had tuberculosis. From these cases it is evident that the wrong diagnosis was made in no less than 59 per cent of the cases. I feel this percentage is too high. I quote these figures to show that the ideal certifying methods which were held up to us in the 1962 Act revealed certain shortcomings. Nearly six years have passed in which the Act had to withstand the test of time. The Minister promised us at that time that any shortcomings in the Act would be rectified. Therefore we feel that the time has probably arrived to have the operation of the 1962 Pneumoconiosis Compensation Act thoroughly investigated. In this connection I want to associate myself with what the hon. member for Rosettenville said a moment ago. He said that it was also stated in the report of the Federation of Mine Unions that research was being hampered because the danger always existed that the easier it is to diagnose the disease the more compensation would have to be paid. The objection may also exist that a commission of inquiry, namely the Silke Commission, was appointed recently. But it should be borne in mind that the terms of reference of that commission were very limited. The commission had to investigate into and report upon the desirability or otherwise of a certain system which was submitted to them by the Chamber of Mines and the Federation of Trade Unions. They had to investigate the advisability of a certain system. [Time expired.]

*Dr. J. C. JURGENS:

Mr. Chairman, I should also like to thank the hon. the Minister and the Government for the improvement to pneumoconiosis pensions brought about by them, as reported in the Press a few days ago. I should like to confine myself to the question of the certification of pneumoconiosis, or in point of fact to the question of the implementation of such certification. I feel that this implementation does not always take place in the spirit which in my opinion was envisaged by the Act of 1962. I shall be pleased if the Minister could go into this matter so as to see whether we cannot bring about a more satisfactory state of affairs. In the definition of “pneumoconiosis”, as contained in Act No. 64 of 1962, we find the following—

“pneumoconiosis” means permanent disease of the cardio-respiratory organs (by whatever means diagnosed) which has been caused by the inhalation of mineral dust.

There is of course no need for me to tell the Minister what the cardio-respiratory organs are. They are, of course, the larynx, trachea, bronchial tree, lung parenchyma, pleurae, lymphatic system of the lungs, regional lymph glands, vascular system of the lungs, nerve supply of the lungs, diaphragm and nerve supply to diaphragm, heart, pericardium and large intra-thoracic bloodvessels. These are all organs which can be affected by dust. We have had a circular from the Department of Mines. I know the hon. the Minister was not responsible for the Act under discussion. Therefore I want to make out my case for a revision of this matter, and I want to commence by quoting from the memorandum on pneumoconiosis matters. Paragraph 47 of the memorandum which has been circulated reads as follows (translation)—

This system of certification according to which the burden of a diagnosis does not rest on the examining medical practitioners alone, is praised internationally as an ideal solution to a thorny problem. Here is a body which now controls and co-ordinates all facets of an examination. It has at its disposal—(i) the full industrial and medical history of the applicant which covers many years, sometimes several decades; (ii) the result of a specialist’s examination, often of a series of such examinations by various specialists; (iii) the result of radiological examinations over long periods; (iv) the result of special laboratory tests, inter alia, blood, urine, sputum, etc.; (v) the result of electro-cardiographs; (vi) the result of lung functioning tests; (vii) often also the result of hospital observations; and (viii) often also reports of private medical practitioners who have treated the applicant.

Paragraph 48 reads as follows (translation)—

The Committee makes a finding on the basis of all this information, and it is accepted as a matter of fixed principle that where there is any doubt, the applicant should be given the benefit of the doubt.

I emphasize the last few words. Paragraph 59 reads as follows (translation)—

In terms of the Act as it stands and in terms of the present definition of pneumoconiosis, every permanent disease of the cardio-respiratory organs which has been caused by the inhalation of mineral dust, whether that disease is fibrositis of the lungs or chronic bronchitis or asthma or catarrh or cancer or heart-disease, or whatever, may be compensated. In this regard our legislation goes further than the legislation of any other country about which we have any knowledge, and the judgment of the medical practitioner in this regard is not restricted to any extent; the test merely is a reasonable degree of certainty that mineral dust has been the cause of the damage.

Paragraph 62 reads as follows (translation)—

In diagnosing pneumoconiosis in a living person four factors in particular play a role: They are (i) radiological findings; (ii) clinical findings; (iii) medical and industrial history; and (iv) the results of special tests. Under (iv), i.e. the results of special tests, are included the result of laboratory tests, such as blood, urine and sputum tests; electro-cardiographs and lung functioning tests. Therefore, lung functioning tests merely constitute a subdivision of a division. They merely constitute one of a series of aids employed so as to make it possible to make a finding or a more correct finding. They are not dominant, decisive or even essential.

The first few lines of paragraph 63 reads as follows (translation)—

There are considerable differences of opinion about the margin of correctness of lung functioning tests. Some experts maintain that lung functioning tests are very accurate and others say that the margin of error may be large.

This shows that doubt does exist in regard to the value of these tests. It is stated here that a person’s history, his exposure to dust, his medical practitioner’s recommendation and other facts should be accepted. It is stated here that, irrespective of what method has been employed, he should be accepted as a sufferer from pneumoconiosis.

I have here the case of a man who was sent by his medical practitioner to the Pneumoconiosis Bureau to be examined for the purpose of determining whether he was entitled to a benefit. This man had been working underground for more than 30 years, and the medical practitioner found that he suffered from chronic bronchitis. The medical practitioner recommended that he should go for an examination for the purpose of determining whether he was entitled to a benefit. The Bureau referred him back to the medical practitioner, and said that it could find nothing wrong with him. His medical practitioner referred him to a private radiologist, and the report of the latter reads, inter alia, as follows—

The lung fields generally appear bronchitic and emphyzematous. Some small old pleuro-diaphragmatic adhesions are present at the left base. There also appears to be a little indefinite nodulo-reticular shadowing and the possibility of a mild degree of pneumoconiosis cannot be excluded radiologically.

With such a report, and with the personal history, this man, in my opinion, ought to have received the benefit of the doubt. However, the following letter was addressed to him—

As you are no doubt aware, Dr… has requested that your case be referred to the reviewing authority for reconsideration. After the interview with you on 2nd April, 1968, that body, however, decided to confirm the finding of the Miners’ Certification Committee, namely that you are not suffering from pneumoconiosis or tuberculosis.

I feel that this man did not receive the benefit of the doubt at all, and consequently I say that the certification of such cases does not rest on a firm basis. I have referred to the evidence of electro-cardiograms. It is said that if there is any disease, whatever that disease may be, that does not necessarily mean that that disease has been caused by dust. It is said, “Yes, the man is suffering from chronic bronchitis, he is suffering from emphyzema, but people who have never worked in a mine can also contract those diseases. That does not provide conclusive proof in this case he could have contracted that disease in any event”. This is how they argue. Nobody can prove that the man contracted the disease because of the inhalation of underground dust. Consequently we shall be pleased to learn what proof is actually required. Is it not possible to be more specific about this procedure and about what proof is required?

I want to go somewhat further. Paragraph 64 of the memorandum reads as follows (translation)—

In terms of paragraph (c) of subsection (7) of section 7 of the Pneumoconiosis Compensation Act, the Minister has laid down the following standards for the certification of mineworkers—(i) with due regard to the duration of exposure to dust and the findings at clinical and other examinations, the International Classification of Radiographers of Pneumoconiosis shall serve as basis for the radiological diagnosis of pneumoconiosis. (ii) Unmistakable radiological signs of pneumoconiosis are not a requirement for certification.

Please note, Sir this is what the hon. the Minister himself has laid down. To quote further—

(iii) Unmistakable radiological indications of pneumoconiosis are accepted as pneumoconiosis which has impaired the cardiorespiratory functions by at least 20 per cent.

Paragraph (iv) reads as follows—

Post-mortem proof of the presence of pneumoconiosis to a degree which in life would have been accepted as unmistakable radiological indications of pneumoconiosis is accepted as pneumoconiosis which would have impaired the cardio-respiratory function by at least 20 per cent had the person not died.

How can anybody say after a post-mortem that the disection of the lungs of the deceased indicates that in life his cardio-respiratory functions would have been impaired by at least 19 per cent and not by 20 per cent? My people simply cannot understand this.

Let me quote a certain case. A widow came to me and said that her husband had died after he had worked underground for 32 years. She received a letter from the Medical Bureau for Mine-Workers which reads as follows (translation)—

You are hereby informed that the Committee has found that the above-named person was suffering from pneumoconiosis at the time of his death which impaired his cardio-respiratory functions by less than 20 per cent and that pneumoconiosis was not a contributory cause to his death.

[Time expired.]

Mr. Mr. S. EMDIN:

Mr. Chairman, the two hon. members who preceded me will forgive me if I do not follow them, but I want to react to the statement made by the hon. the Minister. I am glad of the information he has given us regarding the U.N. resolution on nuclear proliferation and we all hope that the final result will be satisfactory to South Africa. What is perhaps more important is the information given us by the Minister, that as a result of the report placed before him, it is hoped that South Africa will by 1978 move on to the use of atomic power which the Minister’s advisers have told him will be economic by that date. It is very important that we as the major uranium producing country of the world should be in the forefront of the utilization of atomic energy. If we are not, it is like the housewife saying to the visitor, “You can eat my cake, I do not like it very much.” That is why we are glad to hear from the Minister that South Africa itself, despite the coal resources in some parts of the country, is going ahead with the utilization of atomic power for normal electrical purposes. It is important that we should show the rest of the world our confidence in atomic power and that we are prepared to keep pace with what is happening in other parts of the world.

If we look at the Anglo-American Corporation report for the year 1967 we find the following on page 15—

There was a significant increase during the year in the number and size of nuclear power stations that are planned, not only in the U.S.A., Europe and Japan, but also in some less highly industrialized countries. Nuclear plants accounted for more than half the electric generating capacity ordered in the U.S. in 1967. These developments have strengthened the immediate and long-term demands for uranium enabling the South African industry to conclude new contracts and to plan for expansion.

I will talk about expansion in a moment. If we look at the Mining Survey for September, 1967, we see it also refers to this aspect. We find the following stated—

During the year under review there has in fact been a considerable improvement and recent orders for nuclear power plants noticeably in the U.S., have exceeded all expectations. While it will be a few more years before civilian demand for nuclear fuels equals present uranium production capacity, the new contracts which are being concluded in anticipation of future fuel requirements have already had a perceptible impact on price.

We are simply meeting this new situation, as is the rest of the world, and we are very glad to hear that this is the case. We are now faced with two challenges. The first is that we will have to give protection to the uranium sources we have. We will be able to discuss at greater length when the Minister’s Bill on assistance to marginal mines comes before the House. From the information we are getting from overseas at the moment, certain vital facts are becoming apparent. Firstly, the present reserves of uranium at low cost will be virtually exhausted by 1980. Moreover, by 1980, that is over the next 12 years, there will be a four billion dollar commercial demand for uranium concentrates. In America itself there is intense prospecting for uranium and 11 million feet were drilled in the course of uranium prospecting in 1967 in an effort to find additional deposits. At the end of 1966 there were 25 companies in the U.S.A, with active interests in uranium. To-day there are nearly 100. It is estimated that between now and 1980, 800 million dollars will be spent on finding and developing uranium deposits. By that year constructional facilities for processing uranium will be required to an extent of one billion dollars. Processes for enriching uranium will require an expenditure of 3.5 billion dollars.

We are moving into a new era as far as uranium is concerned. In reports coming from the U.S. we are told that while at the moment almost no power is being produced through nuclear generation, some 2,700 billion kilowatt-hours will be produced in 1980 through atomic power. It is a new field, it is a new era. We do not want to be caught on the wrong foot, we do not want to be like so many people who say, “If I only bought that property three years ago, how rich I would have been to-day … If I only bought those shares a few years ago, how wealthy I would have been …”. We must tackle our problem of uranium now.

The second problem regarding uranium is the question of our scientific research. It is true that one can say to-day, with the price of uranium at about five or six dollars a pound, there is not much in it for South Africa by way of profits or profitability. But the latest report from America anticipate that by 1980 the commercial price for uranium will be 15 dollars a pound, and by the turn of the century it is expected to be probably 30 dollars a pound. We have a very valuable product here. We must turn it to account. The Minister told us that in this new power station we are going to get, we would not be using enriched uranium because it is possible we might not always be able to get it. He said it might not always be available. The answer is an obvious one: What we have to do is to try to see that we ourselves will have this product available. I know the cost is enormous at the moment, but this is the beginning of an era of uranium, and whereas we know that new products cost millions to produce at their initial stages, the cost very often comes down to much lower figures later. What I want to ask the Minister to-day is whether he will see that the Government will give full support to the scientific and research side of uranium?

The MINISTER OF MINES:

The answer is yes.

Mr. Mr. S. EMDIN:

Good. I want to tell him what we want. We want to see that sufficient funds are made available. I know we will spend a considerable sum of money this year because we have over R2½ million on the Estimates for research. It may not be enough, it probably will not be enough. What I am mainly concerned with is that we do not have a repetition in this field of what we have had in so many other fields. This is long-term investment; we have got to see that our scientists are well paid; we have to see that their conditions of service are the best we can make them; we have to see there is no brain-drain from South Africa in the atomic or the uranium field. This issue is too important for South Africa, because we can look to a picture, 10, 12 or 15 years hence where the Minister’s problems with the gold mines can be solved by uranium. When the problem of moving over from gold production to industry, as we have to do one day, has to be resolved, we can be inestimably helped by the production of uranium. We must not be short-sighted, we must not say it is going to cost RX for the next four, six, eight years, and we are not going to show a profit, because the profit can be just over the horizon. Let us be big, let us be hold. We have had an example in this country of what South Africa can do in the scientific field. Let us follow it. Our scientists are good, the product is in the ground, and we must maintain our position as the leading uranium producer and establish ourselves as the leading uranium user per capita in the world. This is our task. It is a wonderful task for the Minister, because it is not often given to one so young, I would say to the hon. the Minister, to have this vista presented to him. I hope he will take his opportunity and make the best use of it.

*Dr. J. C. JURGENS:

Mr. Chairman, I was busy telling the Committee of the case of a widow. This widow cannot accept the fact that her husband was just under 20 per cent disabled and that another widow whose husband had worked underground for only 20 years and who only after his death appeared to have suffered from pneumoconiosis was told that her husband had been more than 20 per cent disabled. I feel that we should perhaps go back to the definition of pneumoconiosis, namely “a permanent disease of the cardiorespiratory organs (by whatever means diagnosed) …”. Here it was diagnosed after death and I want to ask the Minister whether a mistake was not made here. We know that mistakes are sometimes made. Here are the proofs. The hon. member for Virginia asked how many people had perhaps suffered from pneumoconiosis while they lived but had never been certified. I leave it to the hon. the Minister to give attention to the matter.

I just want to make a few observations about tuberculosis. Under the 1956 Act this disease was compensatable if the person concerned had worked underground for less than 10 years. He received a lump sum. If he had worked for longer than 10 years, he received both such an amount and a pension. Under the 1962 Act he receives only one amount. If he has worked less than 3,000 shifts, he receives R 1,500; otherwise he receives R2,000. Then that is the end of the mater and he receives no pension in addition. These persons who contract tuberculosis can of course be cured. But after the man has left the sanatorium, his red card is taken away from him and he is not allowed to return to his old work. He then has to seek a different type of employment. I feel it is unfair that this man should be deprived of his livelihood, and that because of something for which he is not responsible. When he received his red card, he had been declared 100 per cent fit after his medical examination. I really feel that we should return to the 1956 Act. The person who suffers from tuberculosis after completing 3,000 shifts should receive a pension and his family should also receive a pension. It may be a young man who loses his job in this way and he may have young children or even children at university. If he is found to be suffering from tuberculosis after 20 years of underground work, he has to find himself other employment, in which he may perhaps earn less than half of his former salary. I feel it would only be fair to give him a pension, as was the position under the 1956 Act. I feel that in this respect we have perhaps deprived the mine-worker of a right. In my opinion a mine-worker is more susceptible to tuberculosis than the ordinary person is. He works underground together with Bantu in an enclosed passage and if a Bantu tuberculosis sufferer coughs or expectorates there the mine-worker can contract tuberculosis of the lungs more easily than the ordinary person because of the dust and the ventilation currents which are pumped through underground. Perhaps the Minister can reconsider this matter as well so that the pension for tuberculosis sufferers may be re-introduced.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order 23.

House Resumed:

Progress reported.

The House adjourned at 6.30 p.m.

MONDAY, 10TH JUNE, 1968 Prayers— 2.20 p.m. DAIRY INDUSTRY AMENDMENT BILL

Bill read a First Time.

SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE *The MINISTER OF TRANSPORT:

Mr. Speaker, I move, as an unopposed motion—

That notwithstanding the provisions of Standing Order No. 22—
  1. (a) the hours of sitting on Tuesday, 11th June, and on Thursday, 13th June, shall be—

    2.15 p.m. to 6.30 p.m.

    8 p.m. to 10.30 p.m.;

  2. (b) Saturday, 22nd June, shall be a sitting day; and
  3. (c) the hours of sitting on each sitting day on and after Monday, 17th June, shall be—

    10 a.m. to 12.45 p.m.

    2.15 p.m. to 6.30 p.m.

    8 p.m. to 10.30 p.m.

Agreed to.

PAARL MOUNTAIN DISPOSAL BILL: SUSPENSION OF PROCEEDINGS *The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE:

Mr. Speaker, I move, as an unopposed motion—

That the proceedings on the Paarl Mountain Disposal (hybrid) Bill be suspended under Rule No. 54 (Hybrid Bills) and leave be granted to proceed with the Bill next session.

Agreed to.

FIRST READING OF BILLS

The following Bills were read a First Time:

War Measures Continuation Amendment Bill.

Income Tax Bill.

Stamp Duties Bill.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—CENTRAL GOVERNMENT

(Resumed)

Revenue Vote 49,—Mines, R28,900,000, and Loan Vote G,—Mines, R730,000 (contd.):

Dr. A. RADFORD:

As a member of the Oosthuizen Commission of 1954, which investigated pneumoconiosis and silicosis in miners, I feel it is my duty to say that it is a great pleasure to me to-day to read the report of the Miners’ Medical Bureau and to see what a change has taken place during the intervening period. The spirit of the staff which in 1954 was one of lassitude and disinterest seems, according to this report, to have been awakened into what we hope will persist as a feeling of interest in the welfare of the miners. I do not want to be misunderstood as saying that everything is perfect, but I nevertheless feel that with the new Director and the new set-up there has been a considerable improvement. I refer particularly to the lung function testing. It was one of the recommendations of that Commission, that the testing of lung functioning should take place. One of the findings of that Commission was that one of the main reasons for the discontent among miners at that particular period was the fact that some miners would receive compensation at the rate applicable to the third stage while others with what appeared to them to have the same disability, would be told that they could receive no compensation as they were not suffering from pneumoconiosis. The reason, we found at that time, was that there were varieties of lung disability which are not detectable satisfactorily by radiographic examination. For this reason lung function tests were suggested, because the commission had found, as had been realized previously in Great Britain, that the X-ray, whilst an extremely good and reliable test, did not show all forms and did not satisfactorily evaluate all degrees of pulmonary disability in miners. I am only sorry that there seems to be, according to the report, some unwillingness on the part of the miners themselves to undergo a function test, but the arrangements which have been made seem to be satisfactory and I hope that the Bureau will persist so that ultimately the miners will realize how important it is for them to cooperate. I am pleased also to see that there is an investigation into the effect of deep-level mining on the health of those who are employed there, also that an ear, throat and nose specialist has been appointed with a view to helping the miners who have nasal or other disabilities. Here I should like to say that he has been also told to investigate the acuity of hearing of the miners. This is a most important matter and it should be pursued further. It is a well-known fact that many mineworkers, not necessarily under-ground workers, end their lives with a great deal of hearing loss. It is time that this was appreciated. The men should at any rate be protected as far as possible. During their careers they should be warned that the loss is taking place. They should be protected as far as possible and if necessary they should be compensated for that loss. These matters show a spirit that is very welcome.

I am glad to see that Kuruman station has been opened and that it has issued a pamphlet on the control of dust in and around asbestos plants. The keywords here are “in and around”. The Oosthuizen commission found that a certain man who did not work on the mines developed an advanced degree of pneumoconiosis. He worked on the trams which passed the City Deep mine every day and he developed a fairly advanced degree of pneumoconiosis. He was unique, but it is not exceptional to find that people in and near asbestos mines develop asbestosis. Quite an appreciable number of these people have developed asbestosis and even malignant disease which follows asbestosis. Yet they had no connection with mining at all.

This brings me to another question. As we saw in the Sunday Times of yesterday, the aircraft industry is to increase the use of beryllium. If anything beryllium produces more certainly malignant disease of the lungs than does asbestos.

If mining in this country, which must take place, and the aircraft industry and other industries, such as fluorescent lighting industries, are going to continue with the use of beryllium it behaves the Department of Mines to take particular steps to protect the workers in the beryllium mines, and particularly so because according to the article, in America at any rate, most of the mining is hand-mining. The article comes from New York, and as far as one can understand, it is the small particles that cause the trouble. The processing can if necessary be modified. Perhaps the miners can under the circumstances wear respirators. At any rate there is no longer any reason for the department to ignore the fact that beryllium produces malignant disease of the lung in a shorter time than is usual with asbestos.

*Dr. J. W. BRANDT:

Mr. Chairman. I should like to refer to what the hon. member for Rosettenville said in regard to the increase in mine accidents. I think the hon. member is making a mistake in saying that there has been an increase in the number of accidents. In a certain respect this is a reflection on the staff of the various mining companies, as well as the Department’s officials who were appointed to supervise mining. I think the hon. member has most probably read the wrong report. Here I have the Mining Statistics Report of 1966, and I want to refer to page 23 of this report. It is pointed out very clearly that there has been an increase in the number of workers on the mines; consequently more accidents can be expected. However, this is of course no criterion. The other aspect which is of importance in the mining industry, is the fact that we have deeper mines nowadays. It is stated in this report that the number of fatal accidents was 739 in 1965, whereas it was 707 in 1966. Where the hon. member for Rosettenville finds an increase, I do not know. In another column in this report it is shown that the death rate per 1,000 per annum was 1.31 in 1965, whereas it was 1.18 in 1966. On the next page there is a graph which clearly indicates that there has been a decrease in the number of accidents per 1,000 persons working on the mines. I therefore want to object to the hon. member’s misrepresentation in connection with the increase in accidents in our mining industry. Along with new developments problems are created and adjustment is essential, and as far as I know this is a very marked trend throughout our mining industry. I say this on the authority of my own experience of the mining industry. South Africa is one of the countries which takes the lead in the world in regard to combating mine accidents, in spite of the fact that we probably have some of the deepest mines in the world. We are constantly trying to prevent mine accidents by means of research.

Sir, I want to elaborate on what the hon. member for Parktown said. In fact, I actually want to associate myself with a few of his ideas. I want to elaborate on a few of the points he mentioned in regard to the processing of our uranium ores, and I must point out that the hon. member for Hillbrow has previously referred to that in the same vein. As far back as 1966 I myself referred to the necessity of our uranium ores being refined locally. The hon. member said: “We must meet the challenge of moving into a new era, and we do not want to be caught on the wrong foot.” In addition he referred to the importance of retaining our scientists, and in this regard I want to refer, just as I have done previously in various debates since I became a member of this House, to the annual report of the Geological Survey Division. Here I have the report of the Geological Survey Division for the year ending 1967, and once again it is very clear that, as I said last year, there is really an indictment contained in this report. I want to draw attention to the importance of this division. It determines the quantitative extent of our natural resources in the Republic as well as South West Africa. At the present moment officials of the Department of Mines are being seconded to South West Africa to carry out the planning of the uses of the resources on a national basis. The Geological Survey Division fulfils an important function in the promotion of the economic welfare of the country. If we want to accept the challenges of the future, much more than merely casual attention will have to be paid to this key department. This chronic phenomenon of a shortage of efficient staff in this division of the Department of Mines is something which, according to this report before the House, still persists. The importance of the mineral industry of which uranium represents a status symbol to-day, is apparent from the fact that the immediate causes of the last world war were psychological and political ones. But these causes had their origins in social conditions, which in turn are influenced by the distribution and control of mineral raw materials. When the use of mineral raw materials is controlled by ethical values, when the marketing benefits everybody and when the processing and benefits of our natural resources are placed at the disposal of everybody, with a common benefit, it may bring about a spiritual disarmament which creates trust, friendship and tolerance, which will prevent future wars. For the sake of this it is, of course, essential that we should in the meantime do everything in our power to broaden our knowledge of geology, the distribution of mineral deposits and the economic aspects thereof. This is essential for vital, intelligent planning for the future. What is required for this purpose, is geological research, along with the branches connected with it. This research paves the way for sound socio-economic planning, and provides our political leaders with guidance for placing the nation of South Africa on a sound and conservative course.

Time and again mention was made here of pneumoconiosis legislation and improving the conditions under which our mineworkers are working. But this research in regard to our mineral deposits concerns the future and the life of the nation of South Africa, and in the light of these circumstances we cannot disregard it. In order to motivate the attitude I adopt, I just want to mention to hon. members that the compilation of a geological map of South West Africa recently called forth a great deal of interest in regions which would otherwise never have received any attention. I do not wish to go into the merits of the question of compiling a geological map of South West Africa, since I was personally involved in the matter. But I just want to point out that it roused so much interest that one of the largest concessions ever granted in South Africa, was the result of this research work and the compilation of this geological map.

Opportunities, a creative urge and imagination constitute a healthy atmosphere for a research institution. Although the opportunity for creative work does exist, it is lacking owing to an inherent shortage of the right staff and consequently of the creative urge and imagination in this key department. These are inherent and fundamental shortcomings of which we have been aware for a very long time.

It was reported in the Press that on the occasion of the opening of the Kloof mine the hon. the Minister recently expressed the wish that a second Witwatersrand might be discovered somewhere. I want to make the statement in this House this afternoon that in view of these chronic phenomena that are evident in the Geological Survey Division, we do not have any hope of bringing about a second Witwatersrand, and I do not only have gold in mind; I also have other metal deposits in mind. Platinum, for instance, is just as important in our mineral industry. If we do not do continuous research work in this regard, we do not have any hope of competing with the rest of the world and maintaining our international status. To my mind the picture of the continuously decreasing staff is actually a very gloomy one if we look at page 26 of the report … [Time expired.]

*Dr. C. P. MULDER:

Now that the National Party has been in power for 20 years, I think it is a good thing for us to place on record this year a few figures to show that the National Party has always had the interests of the worker at heart. Let us, in the first place, take the compensation paid to a married worker who has one child and who has been rendered completely unfit for any further employment owing to pneumoconiosis. The maximum pension to which he was entitled in 1948, was R38.75 per month; at present he is entitled to R114 per month. It is a good thing that we place figures such as these on record for general information. Let us, in the second place, look at the pensions paid to the widows of mineworkers. In 1948 it was R13 per month; at present, after the announcement the hon. the Minister has just made, it is R42 per month. Whereas in 1948 these widows received only R6.50 in respect of each dependent child, they receive R21 at present. The total payments made in respect of pneumoconiosis sufferers in 1938, amounted to R1.6 million in comparison with the amount of R6.6 million paid out this year. As I have said, I mention these few figures for the record, and also to help us to remember that the National Party—apart from smaller points of dissatisfaction which may be found amongst the mineworkers and in respect of which we should have liked to accommodate them if we could—has always had due regard to the interests of the workers.

I should now like to thank the hon. the Minister for having rectified, according to the announcement he has just made, the position of certain persons in terms of section 94 (1) of the 1962 Act. The hon. the Minister will recall that I raised this matter in 1966 on behalf of the persons concerned, i.e. the fact that the total amount of any pension awarded to a person who was remunerated on a monthly basis, may not exceed the amount of that person’s highest monthly earnings. In 1966 there were still 133 of these people. I do not know how many there are at the moment, but on their behalf I want to thank the hon. the Minister for having rectified this matter, which I regard as having been an injustice to them.

Another matter I should like to discuss here, is the question of miner’s diseases in general. At the moment, in terms of existing legislation, pneumoconiosis is the only disease in respect of which compensation is paid to a mineworker. Admittedly, certain concessions are being made to mineworkers in respect of tuberculosis, for instance the fact that such persons receive a certain amount of money and are allowed a certain period for convalescence, but then their red cards disappear and they cannot return to their work. There are in addition certain circumstances under which mineworkers can be compensated in terms of the Workmen’s Compensation Act, such as in the case of skin diseases. But the mineworkers feel that they have a very strong case for certain other diseases being declared to be industrial diseases. In this regard the following diseases are mentioned in particular: chronic bronchitis, emphysema, arthritis and certain heart diseases. I am quite aware of the fact that the mine management’s reply is simply that people who never go underground can also contract these very same diseases. That is why these diseases cannot be regarded as industrial diseases for which the mine management is to be held responsible.

Although I accept this, there are nevertheless a few factors which we should not overlook in this regard. In the first place I think an investigation should be made with a view to determining whether the incidence of diseases of this nature is more widespread amongst mineworkers than it is amongst the rest of the population. Should it be found that this disease is of more frequent occurrence amongst mineworkers than amongst the rest of the population, or even that it occurs to the same extent, then there is to my mind justification for a thorough investigation into the possibility of declaring these diseases to be industrial diseases. Those who know the circumstances under which mineworkers do their work, know that those circumstances are conducive to many of these diseases being contracted. Just think, for instance, of cases where workers have to work underground at depths of more than two miles and where rock temperatures are sometimes as high as 107 degrees fahrenheit. Of course, major advances. have been made in regard to our cooling techniques; thousands of tons of ice are being manufactured in refrigerating plants every day, and air is blown over this ice in order to bring down the temperature. This is true, but these people who work underground are nevertheless working under extremely difficult circumstances, circumstances which are definitely conducive to quite a number of the diseases to which I referred being contracted. A mineworker is sometimes expected to work in water up to his waist and to go on with his work once he is out of the water; he is expected to work in places where the temperatures are high and then again in cold passages where temperatures are kept low by means of air-conditioning. To my mind these and other circumstances justify our taking another look at these diseases. Something which should not be overlooked, is that a mineworker has to pass a fitness test before he can work on the mines. Therefore he cannot be suffering from a weak heart, chronic bronchitis or emphysema; if he does he would not be permitted to work as a mineworker. That is why I say that even if the percentage incidence of this disease is the same amongst mineworkers as it is amongst the rest of the public, the mineworker should nevertheless be placed in a special position in view of the fact that he was a healthy man before he started working as a mineworker. Consequently I wonder whether the time has not arrived for us to appoint a commission of experts, a commission consisting, inter alia, of medical men, to determine whether the incidence of these diseases is more extensive amongst mineworkers than it is amongst the rest of the population, to what extent work on the mines is conducive to the contraction of diseases and to what extent mineworkers should be accommodated in that regard. This is one of the matters about which our mineworkers feel unhappy. Whereas we can appreciate the attitude adopted by the mine management, this is nevertheless a matter which can only be settled in one way, namely by appointing a commission of experts to enquire specifically into this matter.

In the few minutes I still have at my disposal, I want to touch upon another matter, and in this respect I want to come back to the United Party. It must not be said that I am trying to make a political issue out of this matter, but in the course of this debate last year, something was said which apparently passed unnoticed at the time, but is nevertheless something which should not have passed unnoticed. I am referring to a speech made by the hon. member for Karoo in which he asked, inter alia, for a course in mining and engineering to be introduced for Coloureds at the Western Cape University College. He wanted to know why the hon. the Minister had made no provision for assistance to that university college so that it might offer these courses. He went on to say (translation)—

This is the gist of what I want to say to the Minister.

And what is the gist?—

I hope the Minister will free himself from the attitude that mining is something which is exclusively reserved for Whites and that all mineworkers are Whites, will be Whites and will remain Whites. There was a great fuss about the question of Bantu doing certain work on the gold mines. I have nothing to say against that.

I think it is necessary for us to take cognizance of this attitude of the hon. member for Karoo, a member of the U.P. caucus. In public, in this House, he said that he had nothing against the fact that the workers in the mining industry would not necessarily remain white workers. That was what the strike of 1922 was about; on account of that the mineworkers made enormous sacrifices. I think it is a good thing for us to take cognizance of the fact that members of the United Party are still thinking in that direction at this stage.

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

The hon. member who has just sat down, said that he did not want to bring politics into this debate, but he then proceeded to do so.

Dr. C. P. MULDER:

No, I only stated the facts.

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

He started off his speech by telling us what the mineworkers earned in 1948 in comparison with what they earned to-day …

Dr. C. P. MULDER:

No, I said nothing about their wages.

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

… or rather he compared the compensation that they received. Sir, he said nothing about the depreciation in the value of money over the last 20 years that his party has been in power, nor did he talk about the increase in the cost of living over that period. He was strangely silent on those two aspects. Moreover, he did not give us any figures either for the period up to 1933 when his party was in power. He was silent on that aspect too. Sir, I think one can discount the propaganda which he made here this afternoon. He obviously wanted it in Hansard so that he can show that he was doing his job as propaganda chief of his party.

Mr. W. M. SUTTON:

Then he can quote himself.

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

I want to take up with the hon. the Minister a far more serious matter which affects far more people. In reply to a question on the 14th May in regard to the farm Boschhoek in the Dundee area, the hon. the Minister fold me that prospecting licences had been given on this farm. This farm Boschhoek was a Bantu-owned farm and it has now been taken over by the State. The interesting thing is that the agreed figure of R251,000, which the State was to pay the Bantu for this farm, has at this date not yet been paid. The other interesting aspect is that the Bantu who have been moved from that farm, have not received title deeds in respect of the farm to which they have been sent. Sir, that is all by the way. What does fall under this Minister, of course, is the fact that before those Bantu were moved out of their homes, prospecting plates were put on the various plots on this farm, right next to the houses occupied by the Bantu. I would like the hon. the Minister to tell me what notification was given that this ground was being opened for prospecting purposes. Was this fact advertised so that the public could know that they could apply for licences to prospect on this farm?

The MINISTER OF MINES:

Where did you get your information from?

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

I got this information on the 14th May in reply to a question. The Minister gave me the names of the people who hold the prospecting licences, and in reply to a question put by the hon. member for Rosettenville, the Minister said he was unable to tell us how it came about that these permits were issued and why no notification was given. I raise this question here this afternoon because I would like to know how the public can be informed when an area is opened for prospecting and particularly how these particular persons were informed so that they could apply for licences to prospect on this ground. I would also like to know why the prospectors were allowed to put up prospecting pegs on land which was still occupied by the Bantu. Then I should like to know whether the figure of compensation for this farm takes into account the possibility that precious metals or base minerals might be found on this farm. Surely there was an indecent haste in this whole matter. The hon. the Minister need not look at me like that. I repeat that there was an indecent haste in this matter. The Bantu were still occupying the houses on the farm when white prospectors were allowed to put their pegs into the ground. I say to the hon. the Minister that this was a disgrace and that it has caused deep hurt to the Bantu concerned. I ask the hon. the Minister therefore in all seriousness if he can tell me how this came about because one is left with the suspicion, which may be unwarranted, that these Bantu were evicted from this ground because somebody felt that it might be a prosperous area for mining or prospecting. Sir, I would like the Minister to give me his replies to this question in detail because they affect a great many people.

*Mr. M. J. VAN DEN BERG:

Along with the hon. member for Randfontein I, too, want to express my personal appreciation for the considerable improvements that were announced in respect of the dependants of pneumoconiosis sufferers. I do not know why some members take exception when the hon. member for Randfontein indicates how progressive improvements have been effected in regard to compensation for mineworkers. You know, Mr. Chairman, how difficult it is to do a good deed. The quickest way of making a name for oneself, is to commit a crime; then one’s physiognomy is depicted in every newspaper in South Africa. But good deeds, even the good deeds of a government, are very seldom accorded the favourable publicity they merit.

I take great pleasure in associating myself with every word said here by the hon. member for Randfontein. But what is more important, is the fact that he also insisted on an inquiry in regard to diseases which are prevalent in this industry and in respect of which no compensation is paid as yet. We have been making representations in this regard for many years, and I hope that in the near future these representations will be responded to. I want to associate myself wholeheartedly with these representations, and I believe that every member in this House will do so, even hon. members of the Opposition. If ever there have been representations which deserve the support of the whole Committee, then it is these representations. I should like to point out that a few cries of despair in regard to the mining industry were voiced in this House last year. I warned against them and said that there was no need for cries of despair to be voiced in regard to the mining industry and, more specifically, the gold-mining industry. The unfounded fear was expressed here that the life of the mining industry, especially the gold-mining industry, would not be a very long one.

Mr. Chairman, nobody wants to be a prophet, but from my own experience of the mining industry I can tell you, Sir, that the gold-mining industry will still be there when none of us are left in this House. For that reason, and for that reason in particular, we should not allow the idea to take root that the life of the mining industry is a short one, and that we consequently do not care about the future of the mineworkers. For that reason in particular we must not only pay special attention to investigating industrial diseases, but also to combating them. A very great deal can be done in the mining industry to curb the incidence of miner’s diseases effectively, i.e. not only phthisis, but also other diseases. When we talk about industrial diseases in the mines, phthisis still remains the most important one. I maintain that year after year the mining industry—and this is the responsibility of the Government Mining Engineer—should be in a position to report that progress is being made in regard to incidence of dust. I am not concerned about the incidence of dust above-ground; I am referring to the incidence of dust which causes silicosis in the mines. This does, of course, present a major problem to the mining industry; all of us realize that, but silicosis gives rise to many diseases which have not been recognized as yet. For instance, here we are dealing with the incidence of tuberculosis.

We are told that tuberculosis is a disease which is also found amongst people who have never worked on the mines. We know that; but we also know, if we allow ourselves to be guided by medical science, that once a person has had dust in his lungs, he is so much more susceptible to tuberculosis. I see my hon. friend over there nodding assent, and this is true.

The greatest authority on tuberculosis the world as yet produced, the late Dr. Watkins Pickford, told us that it was the most infectious disease in the whole world and the one that was most difficult to combat and eradicate because at a temperature of 100°Celcius, which is boiling point, the tuberculosis germ could still remain alive for 20 minutes. Now we must realize that the mining industry is called upon to pay special attention to the combating of those diseases, and we are grateful for the fact that medical science has progressed to such an extent that this disease can in fact be combated and cured at present. This is one of the most gladdening tidings we have heard for many years in regard to the combating of that disease, i.e. that it can be combated so effectively to-day that one can recover from it.

But I think everybody will agree with me that the prevention of this disease is much better than the cure. That is why we want to urge that precautionary measures for healthy conditions in the mines should be aimed in particular at silicosis which may subsequently cause tuberculosis, and that in that regard we should take more effective action in the future. That is why I want to emphasize that the dust should be laid, for this is not only the cause of one disease, but of many. I want to lay particular emphasis on this aspect to-day, and I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister, even though he might not have found it necessary in the past, to speak to the Government Mining Engineer and to tell him that dust in the mines should, if possible, be combated even more effectively in future. You must not expect me to be satisfied with the reply that this is in fact being done.

I would only be satisfied if the Government Mining Engineer submitted to me a schedule indicating what the dust content in the mines was over a period of 10 years and that it has now been reduced to such and such an extent. Only then will it be possible for us to say that we are now combating that deadly dust in the mines effectively, but in the absence of such proof we are fooling ourselves if we talk about the combating of a disease without being able to prove in this House that the elementary cause of that disease is in fact being combated. That is what I want to urge very strongly to-day. If by next year we are able to report good progress in regard to the combating of dust, we shall have progressed a great deal towards safeguarding the health of our people in the mining industry. I emphasize the point that the mineworkers are not so pessimistic as to think that the gold-mining industry in particular will come to an end soon.

We must prepare ourselves for many more years of mining development, and we must prepare ourselves for many more years of new discoveries. That is why it is the duty of all of us to look after the future of those young South Africans whom we want to work in the mines, and who would go to the mines if they see that the conditions existing in the mines are also receiving the attention of the employers as such and not only that of the State. It remains the pre-eminent duty of the employers in the mining industry to comply with these requirements, which I have now tried to bring prominently to the notice of the Minister.

*Mr. W. J. C. ROSSOUW:

I am grateful to be able to participate in this debate once again this afternoon, and I am grateful for the standard maintained and for the fact that this matter has been discussed on such a high level. When we speak about the miner and his circumstances and about mining as a whole, I think that both sides of the House are agreed that we should obtain the best possible conditions for these people that can be obtained in any industry. And when I speak about the miner, I am speaking about all the workers, from the general manager down to the lowest-paid person in that industry. I want to avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate the hon. the Minister and to thank him for the concessions he has made to the dependants of pneumoconiosis sufferers and also to the persons who have contracted this dreaded disease. I want to thank him very much.

You know, Sir, every person cherishes an ideal and all of us who have come here, probably cherished the ideal of coming to Parliament, and once you have come here, you have a further ideal that you cherish. Some members may want to become Ministers and perhaps even have the idea of becoming Prime Minister one day, but I cherish one ideal in life and that is to do as much as possible on behalf of the miners. Where I can assist, with the support of my colleagues, in alleviating the burden of these people who have contracted this dreaded disease, I shall always be prepared to do so.

It is the most fervent wish of my life to assist these people when they have contracted miner’s phthisis—let us call a spade a spade—or tuberculosis, or are crippled by rheumatism, so that they can be free of anxiety during the last days of their lives. They will have to endure pain and sorrow, but I want to see to it that they will be financially independent because the State or the mining industry will care for them. After all, this is probably the industry which makes the greatest contribution to our national economy to-day. It is the industry in connection with which we cherish the hope that the price of gold will be increased in the future and that many of the marginal mines will be able to continue in existence, so that a bright future will be in store for the mining industry. But I am making this request to the hon. the Minister, himself a medical man and still a young man in the prime of his life. Since 1911, as we heard from the hon. member for Virginia, this Act has been amended 17 times. Let us harbour no illusions. I want to thank the hon. member for Springs for the fine explanation which he gave on Friday in regard to the certifying of pneumoconiosis. The miner is dissatisfied about that to-day; let us not evade the issue. Therefore I ask the Minister to appoint a commission of inquiry to see if we cannot find a solution to this problem once and for all, because the miner does not understand this percentage system, of 20 per cent and then again from 20 per cent to 50 per cent, and from 50 per cent to 75 per cent, and from 75 per cent upwards. He simply says: “I have contracted this disease and the death sentence has been passed upon me. No doctor in the world can cure me.” If the price of gold is increased one day, I hope that both the Chamber of Mines and the State will do everything in their power to assist persons who are suffering from this dreaded disease, so that they need not worry about where to obtain their daily bread.

I want to return to the hon. member for Rosettenville, who also spoke about the monthly wage system. This matter actually falls under the hon. the Minister of Labour, but I nevertheless want to express my gratitude for the system which came into operation a year ago. There are certain anomalies which still have to be eliminated. I can assure the House that that agreement is probably one of the best which has ever been concluded as far as the mining industry is concerned. It is to the benefit of both the workers and the mine-owners. The young man who begins to work in the mines knows that when he reaches 60 years of age he will receive a living pension. Through the hon. the Minister of Mines I thank the hon. the Minister of Labour very sincerely for that.

Mention was made here of working conditions and the many accidents which occur in our mines. I want to compliment and thank the mine-owners and mineworkers for the stringent safety measures which are applied in our mines. Hon. members must not become pessimistic about the accidents which occur. If there is any industry which is extremely careful and which does everything in its power to ensure the safety of employees, it is the mining industry. Unfortunately accidents still occur. Why? Because the miner and the mine-owner are expected to produce twice as much as 10 or 15 years ago. At to-day’s rate of production it will take at the most half as long to work a mine out as it took years ago, and under these circumstances one can expect a considerable number of accidents to occur. I believe, however, that everything possible is being done to make the work as safe as possible. I want to thank all the Departments who are assisting in maintaining the safety of our miners at as high a level as possible. They are doing their utmost and the safety measures are the best possible.

My time is running short, and there is a last request that I want to make to the hon. the Minister. Bursaries are made available for the children of widows and pneumoconiosis sufferers to go to university. The bursaries are made available by the State, the Chamber of Mines and the Pneumoconiosis Council. However, the requirement is laid down that the students can only take up a certain career. [Time expired.]

Mr. H. M. TIMONEY:

Mr. Chairman, the trend of this debate has been the health of our miners and the incidence of pneumoconiosis, and one wonders whether we would have had the position which we have to-day had more attention been paid to these matters in the past. The hon. member for Krugersdorp quite rightly said prevention was better than cure, and there is no doubt that if the relevant laws and regulations could be better applied by both sides, the position may be improved. I feel that both sides of the House are agreed that the more stringent application of the applicable legislation could improve the position. It is tragic to think that mineworkers still have to face the great danger which is facing them to-day, and it is necessary that they should be paid adequate compensation. In this regard I want to cross swords with the hon. member for Randfontein. He said certain things here, and I want to put the record straight.

Invariably improved working conditions or improved compensation have been inspired from this side of the House. The hon. member for Randfontein knows that hon. members opposite dare not get up here and plead for better wages or working conditions. They may do that in their caucus but not here. It is on record that proposals on those lines always emanate from this side of the House. I want to put the record straight as regards the past 20 years. The hon. member can tell his voters that the Government, with the United Party, improved the working conditions of the mineworkers, but the inspiration came from the United Party. The hon. member must admit that. That is the correct record. [Interjections.]

I should like to get back to the Vote. We are pleased to see the Government are at last taking note of the position of our dying mines and that it has been possible to induce the hon. the Minister of Finance to give them R82 million. We will shortly have a Bill before us dealing with that subject. Mining does not begin and end with gold mines. If we read the Annual Reports of the Government Mining Engineer and of the Geological Survey we find the Reports cover a very much wider field. We have other minerals being mined in this country and they are facing certain difficulties, difficulties in respect of marketing. We find that with the very high cost of railage to the coast our iron ore and manganese mines are suffering as a result. According to a newspaper report the Deputy General Manager of Railways said the following, referring to the transport of export minerals by pipeline—

If we could introduce this mode of conveyance for our ore traffic we would reap the benefit almost of water traffic, which is much cheaper than land transport.

He gave us some interesting figures regarding the cost of conveyance in Australia—

The present cost of transporting ore by rail from Sishen in the Northern Cape to Durban and Port Elizabeth, averages R3.65 a ton, or R4.48 a ton if handling and shipping charges are included. In Australia, our biggest competitor, the transport charge to the export harbour is only approximately 54 cents.

Here then is a plea that our ore should be conveyed as economically as possible to our ports. The Minister of Mines should give his attention to this problem. We have our dying gold mines which might get a new lease of life if the gold price is increased. We also have the very wealthy hinterland of ores. We have to see how they can be mined economically, and if they are exported in their raw state we must export them as cheaply as possible in order to keep those mines alive, otherwise we will have other dying mines. I think that is something the Minister must keep in mind.

I should like to come to the question of oil research. In the report mention is made of inland research. In the Minister’s maiden speech as Minister of Mines, he said that inland research would possibly end in 1969 and that new decisions would have to be made as to how far we would go. At the present moment I see that we are down to two lease drills. It is essential for this country that we do everything in our power to try to discover oil in this country. I think that the hon. the Minister should let us know exactly what the Government’s policy is in regard to further research. Some of these very expensive drills which we have had on lease, have possibly been returned overseas. If, however, they have not, we should like to see them retained in this country, so that further research can be undertaken inland. I think it is generally accepted by people in the oil industry all over the world to-day, that the future supplies of oil will be found off-shore. They are finding very much more oil in the sea than they are finding on land. We would like to hear from the hon. the Minister what is happening there and what progress has been made as far as off-shore drilling is concerned. With all the research that is going on, it is disappointing to read the section of the report where it is stated that the Director of the Geological Survey made representations to the Public Service Commission for better conditions for his staff which have been rejected. He said that his section, like other departments, was suffering as a result mainly of poor pay and service conditions. When one reads the report and sees the resignations, and one notes what staff he has at the present moment, I think it is a matter which the hon. the Minister has to consider seriously. There has to be some revision in the pay scales and conditions. One cannot continually say that we cannot compete with commerce. What really happens is that the Government has to hire agencies from commerce to do the job for them. They then have to pay twice as much. Surely we must wake up to that fact and review the salary scales. The inland and the off-shore search for oil in this country is most essential for the lifeblood of this country. It is necessary for the Government to go out of its way to see whether it cannot retain the scientists whom we train at very great expense. We must retain them here in our service, because we are not really saying anything by allowing them to go. If we want development to continue, we have to hire outside agencies and pay them two or three times as much. Therefore we may as well pay our own men a decent salary and retain those services for the State. These are the items I would like the hon. the Minister to give his attention to, and I should like to hear his views on these matters.

*Dr. W. L. D. M. VENTER:

Mr. Chairman, in the few minutes at my disposal, I should very much like to bring a certain matter to the attention of the hon. the Minister. It concerns the lot of a group of diggers who live in my constituency. A few years ago we made a survey, and then the total number of bona fide diggers was between 300 and 400, with an average age of about 57 years. Since then the number has decreased, and according to the latest statistics I obtained from the mining office in Barkly West, there are at present about 225 bona fide diggers there. These people have been on the diggings throughout their lives. New digging licences are no longer being issued. Therefore, it is naturally a problem which will solve itself in time. But these people can do nothing else. They have lived their whole lives on the diggings. They are diggers to the core. Now the problem is to obtain land for these people. We know that there is land which could surely have been deproclaimed, but because the diggers cling to it because of a lack of additional land, it is impossible to deproclaim it. We know that we cannot expect the impossible. But now we know that there is land which may possibly become available for them. I am referring to the locations at Smitsdrif, which have now been evacuated. The Bantu have been removed from there. The diggers are pleading for it. They are asking that ground be proclaimed for them so that they can dig there. I want to plead their case very seriously with the hon. the Minister. I want to point out to him that, even if we can make land available for the next 10 or 12 years to these 225 bona fide diggers where they can dig, this problem will solve itself in the course of time because no new licences are being issued. Therefore we want to ask that the hon. the Minister give very serious attention to the representations which the Diggers Advisory Council made to him directly, and that he will consider setting aside that ground, which is now becoming available, and earmark it for those diggers, so that they can make a proper living. We know that if he does so, we cannot expect more. I think it would be a big step forward to rehabilitate these diggers. It will possibly be a deliverance for them.

*Dr. P. BODENSTEIN:

Mr. Chairman, we are all aware of the fact that the mining industry makes a major contribution to the Treasury. In 1948 the contribution to the gross domestic product was 10 per cent. In 1965 it was 12.2 per cent. To-day the mining industry stands third on the list of contributions made to the gross domestic product. I am proud to be able to state that platinum is also making an important contribution to the mining industry. My constituency is an area where platinum is mined, and the largest platinum mine in the world is situated just outside the town. There are no less than 1,750 white miners working in that mine. There is also a second platinum mine, namely Union Platinum, with more than 300 white miners. Union Corporation is now developing the Impala Mine, where between 400 and 500 white miners will be employed. It is remarkable that the Impala Mine is being planned in collaboration with the I.D.C., which will hold 10 per cent of the shares in the mine. Virtually all the equipment and machinery which will be used in the refineries for refining purposes, will be produced in South Africa. Only a few items of highly complicated machinery will have to be imported from overseas. In other words, the platinum industry alone in Rustenburg will have more than 2,500 white mine-workers in its employ. I am grateful to be able to state that, notwithstanding the fact that these mines fall under the Pneumoconiosis Compensation legislation of 1962, there was only one case of pneumoconiosis contracted by a miner who had not worked on other mines in the past. In other words, the danger of pneumoconiosis is very slight. Therefore I do not ask for a sub-medical bureau. On the contrary, what will be of great importance to this area, especially since the platinum industry is so dynamic, will be a research institute. I am convinced that the mine-workers who deal with the mining of platinum, are indeed exposed to other industrial diseases. In Rustenburg, where I move among my constituents a great deal, we find ourselves faced with the problem that the medical aid funds to which the people belong, are not sufficient to allow them to have the necessary medical treatment. We find this on all mines. Unfortunately the position is such that the medical aid societies do not receive any contributions from the employers. This is in contrast with other industries, where the employers normally make a contribution. I feel strongly about this matter, and I think it should not be made a bargaining point. If the hon. the Minister, who is a doctor, and who is infused with the idea of having the miner live a more healthy life, can ensure that this aspect will not be a bargaining point, and if employers were to make the same contributions as mine-owners do in the case of pneumoconiosis, I believe that it would prove to be of great value to the miners. We in South Africa want to have greater productivity. If the health of our miner is not looked after, it is impossible to have this productivity in the interests of our nation.

*The MINISTER OF MINES:

Mr. Chairman, in the first place I want to express my gratitude to the 13 hon. members on both sides of the House who participated in this debate for the general spirit which prevailed. It not only testified to the thorough knowledge on the part of hon. members of the circumstances prevailing amongst the people they represent, but also to the marked seriousness and interest with which they approached the matters relating to mine-workers and the mining industry. It is gratifying to see that we have at least progressed so far that, when we are dealing with human lives and with dangerous conditions under which people have to work, as well as with those who have been left behind as a result of certain industrial diseases, we were able to discuss these matters in this spirit. I also find the appreciation expressed in regard to the pneumoconiosis concessions announced, and legislation which will in the near future be submitted to this House gratifying. I can only say that it is with great pleasure that I have been able to do this at least, particularly in the case of widows and dependents, and in other cases where the position was an unequitable one owing to the fact that payments were not equal when they ought to have been equal. There were also a small number of people who, several years ago were not earning very much, but it has now as a result of this legislation been made possible for them to receive better payments. I must say that these concessions which have been made emanated from three sources in particular. The first was the desire which this Government has always manifested to lend assistance where it is possible to do so. Nor can I omit to mention that it originated from representations which were made by representatives of the miners, i.e. the Mine Workers’ Union, and these were presented in such a way, particularly during the time in which we had to deal with inflation, that it testified to a sense of responsibility. If representations for increased benefits for their people are presented in this way, I feel that we will in future be able to co-operate in a very fruitful fashion. I want to place on record today my gratitude and appreciation for the way in which the Mine Workers’ Union has up to now conducted its negotiations with me in regard to this matter. In the third place, they originated very strongly and definitely out of the repeated and very clear representations which were made by members of this House who represent constituencies in which there are mining activities. I think that it is not realized sufficiently by the mine-workers or by other persons that it is not only the speeches made in this House, but that it is more particularly those discussions and consultations in committee and in groups and the caucuses which ultimately result in these steps being taken. I do not think that this should ever be underestimated, and I should like to place this on record, so that it stands there for all to see.

The hon. member for Rosettenville introduced this debate and brought several matters to the fore. The first point he mentioned was the question of certification and research. In this he was followed at a very high level by several hon. members, for example the hon. member for Geduld, who spoke medical language in a way which was not only understandable to everyone in this House, but which dealt with aspects which we after all believe should be brought forward in a debate such as this. The hon. member for Virginia mentioned this question, as well as the hon. member for Durban (Central), the hon. member for Stilfontein and others. I want to ask hon. members not to expect me to reply to each one of them specifically, for I would rather discuss these matters in their broader perspective.

Firstly, I want to discuss the question of pneumoconiosis certification and the question of research.

†The hon. member for Rosettenville inquired about a possible obstruction in the field of research as far as pneumoconiosis is concerned.

*Mr. Chairman, let me say at once that I cannot accept this. There is a pneumoconiosis research unit, as hon. members know, which froms part of the C.S.I.R., but which is stationed in Johannesburg. I not only had the privilege of opening it, I also have had the privilege of visiting it on more than one occasion. Generally speaking I want to say that both the bureau and the pneumoconiosis research unit are rendering a service to the department and the Chamber of Mines, but this is all being done on behalf of the miners. The medical practitioners at the Bureau and the research institute, as well as the research workers there, are not instructed in any way by either the mining industry or the department. It is not necessary for me to say that a scientist or a professional officer, such as the doctors at the Bureau, who are people whose aim it is to do their best for the patient and who are worth their salt, will never tolerate anything like that. But for the sake of the record let me state this very emphatically again here to-day, and I want this to be made as public as possible, although it is not really necessary to say this, that not one of the doctors at the Bureau or the research institute allow themselves to be influenced in their findings or in their research by other consideration than the interests of the patients with whom they are dealing. They may under no circumstances— and I know that they do not do this—take into account the fact that it may possibly result in increased costs either for the industry or for the Government. The exclusive approach is, and must always be, that what each mine-worker deserves, provided he is suffering from pneumoconiosis, within the framework of the legislation, must not be withheld from him, regardless of the costs involved to the State or to the mining industry. I want, in the first place, to make that very clear.

The second point that was raised, was the problem in regard to certification. I must say that I have a great deal of sympathy, particularly in regard to the fact that it is difficult for the general public to understand and accept precisely what the position is, particularly if one is in the difficult situation of having possibly contracted pneumoconiosis. I can understand that it is a very difficult matter to understand fully, and in certain circumstances, to accept fully.

I now want to furnish the following figures, simply to indicate to you the magnitude of this task, and how many people, each one of them a person, an individual, with a responsibility and a family, are concerned in this matter. During the past four years the average number of first examinations made was approximately 9,500. Annually between 50,000 and 54,000 periodical examinations are made. Approximately 18,000 benefit examinations are made annually. Approximately 2,500 postmortems are carried out. I am simply mentioning these figures to indicate to hon. members how closely the examination tie up with the individuals and of what magnitude the task which is being undertaken by the Bureau and the undertakings concerned is. At present there are 5,794 white miners, 5,084 white women, 3,016 white children, 472 Coloured men, 348 Coloured women and 797 Coloured children who are receiving compensation.

I then come to the plea, made in regard to certification and the revision of the pneumoconiosis Act, for a commission of inquiry. Let me say at once that I think a reasonably good case has been made out here. In addition let me say that I have taken thorough cognisance of the fact that hon. members on this side of the House in particular, such as the hon. member for Stilfontein, Virginia, Geduld and others, feel that such a commission should in fact be appointed in order to undertake an investigation of such an extensive nature. I also assume that this arises from the fact that the Act has been in operation in its present form for several years now, and that it is felt that the time has come for us to reconsider it. I may add that the Mineworkers’ Union, through their representatives, have also made this clear on every possible occasion. I have up to now had three or four interviews with them. I have also availed myself of the opportunity of visiting them in their own offices. I think that this is necessary, because if you work with people, you must know under what conditions they are working. I then recommended that a deputation of the Mineworkers’ Union should conduct an interview with the hon. the Prime Minister, at which I would also be present. Let me say at once that it is not the custom, as hon. members know, for a Prime Minister to agree readily to grant such an interview. However, I felt myself quite at liberty to recommend this to the hon. the Prime Minister, and attended the interview because the hon. the Prime Minister also represents a constituency which is situated on the Witwatersrand. I think it is a good thing that attention should be focused, at the highest Government level, on the interests of the mine-workers, the interests of whom we may not underestimate. At that interview the representatives of the Mineworkers’ Union lent very strong support to the plea also made by hon. members for a Commission of Inquiry.

However, I find myself in a difficult position—and I must be quite honest with hon. members—in that I am really not entirely convinced that it is in the interests of the person who must ultimately receive the compensation if he is entitled to it for such a comprehensive investigation to be instituted at this stage. I therefore want to ask hon. members to accept my assurance, in the spirit in which it is being extended, that I have taken cognizance of the very strong demand which exists for a Commission of Inquiry. I will not presumptuously undertake to say that a commission will in fact be appointed, but I foresee that we will discuss this matter again with the representatives of the Mineworkers’ Union. Naturally I shall return to the hon. the Prime Minister before I approach the Cabinet, and I can assure hon. members that I will bear these pleas of theirs very much in mind.

†The hon. member for Rosettenville raised a few other matters. In dealing with the monthly pay scheme he said that perhaps all was not well with the system, and he wanted to know whether there were difficulties. He then referred to the introduction of an industrial council and to a possible disruption of productivity. I want to say to the hon. member that I do not for one moment question his good intentions, but one must be very careful in the position in which one finds oneself as a Member of Parliament not to refer lightly to these matters in the terms used by the hon. member.

*We are to-day experiencing peace amongst the ranks of the mineworkers; to-day we at least have an understanding and a relationship between employer on the one hand and employee on the other, a relationship which has brought peace and quiet, which is a different situation to the one we had two years ago, and I feel that we must do nothing to disturb this in any way. I also want to say to the hon. member that since I took over this portfolio, I have adopted the standpoint very strongly that there should be clear lines of demarcation in regard to the responsibilities of the Minister of Mines. Matters such as the pay scheme, the creation of something akin to an industrial board, and other matters which deal with labour I am not prepared to have the Department of Mines involved in; that is the domain of the Department of Labour. I have the full support and co-operation of the representatives of the mineworkers in this regard. Secondly, pleas were also raised here in regard to the question of mining tax. Representations were made here to the effect that if the price of gold should be increased, the taxes should not be such that the gold mines would be prejudiced as a result. In this regard I only want to say that the Government has in this regard shown its bona fides beyond any doubt, and has also done so with the legislation which is still upon the Table, namely the proposed improved formula in regard to the marginal profit mines. It is the fixed policy of the Government, particularly with a view to the possible increase in the gold price, to offer the marginal profit mines the opportunity of remaining in operation as long as possible, and the legislation is already upon the Table. But in this regard I want to say that the question of taxes and the question of the price of gold are fields into which I as Minister of Mines do not want to venture because it is the task and the function of my colleague, the Minister of Finance, with this exception—I would like the mining industry to know this; in fact, I have conveyed this to them on the occasion of discussions—that I do in fact see it as my task to look after the interests of the mining industry in all its forms, including the question of taxes, and that my door is open at all times to the mining industry. They can bring their representations to me, and I shall then support their representations, according to merit, and convey them to the Minister of Finance who is the responsible Minister in respect of taxation, because it should be the task of the Minister of Mines to see to it that the mining industry is so sound, financially and otherwise, that the people who have to earn their bread out of that industry, will always be ensured of a decent subsistence.

Then, thirdly, I just want to refer to uranium, and the international aspects thereof, as well as to nuclear power. This is another field into which I as Minister of Mines do not want to venture; it is a field which is dealt with by the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and quite rightly so I think.

In addition certain pleas were made in regard to railage and transport matters. I shall most certainly take up this matter, if it is in the interests of the mining industry, with my colleague, the Minister of Transport, because I think that this is also a matter which is in our charge. In order to complete the picture I also want to refer to the question of soil conservation, particularly in regard to surface mining activities. This is the task of the Minister of Agriculture. We are at present conducting negotiations to see whether we cannot effect an improvement in this regard. When it comes to mining in the Coloured and the Bantu areas, this is a matter which belongs exclusively to my colleagues, the Minister of Coloured Affairs and the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development respectively. But we are, and we must always remain the watchdog in that respect as well in order to ensure the best utilization of the mining possibilities in the Republic.

Mr. Chairman, I just wanted to state our policy approach very clearly. I want to assure hon. members that in regard to all these matters the Department of Mines will in fact adopt a watchful attitude in regard to other Departments in order to protect the interests of the mining industry in the Republic.

†The hon. member for Rosettenville also referred to the accident rate on the mines. He described it as a shocking accident rate and said he was not so sure that everything possible was being done by the management to ensure that the accident rate was as low as possible. The hon. member for Stilfontein has already dealt with this matter, but may I just add that I am quite convinced that a vast amount of research is being done to keep the accident rate as low as possible and to determine the underlying causes of accidents on the mines. May I also point out to the hon. member that all accidents, from the smallest scratch on the finger to an accident which results in death, which have to be reported under the Mines and Works Act, are investigated to determine the underlying causes, and if we have a very large number of accidents, we must not forget that the very trivial accidents are also included in those figures. Apart from the investigations carried out by the Government Mining Engineer and his staff, there is a prevention of accidents committee which continuously and actively concerns itself with this type of research. All the interested parties, including Government Departments, are represented on this committee. Conditions underground are unnatural and factors such as heat, artificial lighting and others play a role. Mineworkers are examined regularly and physical fitness, or the lack of it, does not play a very important part in this aspect. As far as can be ascertained alcohol does not play a role in mine accidents. The use of alcohol in the mines, as is well known, is not allowed, of course, and if a mineworker should report for duty while under the influence of liquor, he would be sent away immediately. It is interesting to note that most accidents occur between 10 a.m. and 11 a.m., i.e. during the period when operations are at their peak. Research, both as regards the underlying causes of accidents and improved methods of prevention, is continuing and will be continued in our mining industry as long as accidents occur. I am quite convinced that both the authorities and the mine owners do a vast amount to see to it that the accident rate is kept down to the minimum.

*In addition the hon. member, and others as well, raised the question of sinkholes here. The hon. member stated that a tremendous eruption of gas had taken place at Westonaria. I am not aware that the position is as bad as he made it out to be.

†The hon. member was good enough to send me certain pamphlets which set out various methods of tracing sink holes. May I say to the hon. member that these have been examined and tested over the past two years. The mining companies have considered them and the C.S.I.R. has done experimental work, but the results were negative and it is not considered advisable to spend more money on the techniques involved. That is the position notwithstanding the excellent articles dealing with this matter which appear from time to time.

*In regard to the question of oil, I should like to draw hon. members’ attention to a statement which I would like to make in this regard, because I think it is necessary for me to furnish this information I can state that an acceleration in the exploration programme in the Republic has been effected during the past year. An intensive and scientific search was launched, in co-ordination with the Geological Survey Section, Government Departments and other holders of prospecting leases for crude oil. This search has really gained momentum, as I shall indicate.

The fact that Soekor has joined the search has had an activating influence on prospecting in other prospecting lease areas, and was directly responsible for an accelerated and comprehensive exploration attempt in Zululand, in the first instance by the Zululand Oil Exploration Company, or ZOE, as it is known, and subsequently by Gulf Oil Exploration. In the prospecting territory of H.M. Mining and Exploration Company, in the district of Port Elizabeth and adjacent districts, first Soekor and then a capable Canadian firm, Syracuse Oils, undertook prospecting work. In the technological field, particularly as regards seismic and boring activities, useful information was obtained, not only about working methods but also in so far as it brought to light peculiar and unique South African problems which have to be bridged. Sub-letting agreements were entered into with 12 capable and financially well-provided exploration companies by Soekor in respect of the search for crude oil in the territorial waters and on the continental shelf of the Republic. Great progress has been made with seismic and aeromagnetic surveys, and the sublessees have already spent R1.25 million in the first six months after the commencement of activities, whereas the obligations they incurred for a full year were for a lesser sum than that. In the first phase of their search 3,600 miles of seismic lines—and I understand that this has already increased to 4,000 miles—and 3,300 aeromagnetic line-miles have been completed. Soekor has made various further geo-physical and geological surveys on land, of which seismic, magnetic and gravimetric surveys are the most important. As a result of the intensive seismic survey, undertaken by four teams, drills can now be situated at the most promising places, according to the information acquired. Surveys over 4,000 line-miles have been carried out in parts of the Karoo, the Eastern Cape and the Transkei. Inter alia the four teams discovered the catchment structures for the two rotary drills at Schietfontein, Graaff-Reinet District, and Klein Waterval, in the Prins Albert District, and are continuing to determine new ones, as well as to unravel the regional structure. A gravimetric survey of approximately 40,000 sq. miles stretching from the eastern to the western Karoo, has been completed and a new project in the chalk area of Algoa Bay is in process. An aeromagnetic survey was carried out over approximately 20,000 line-miles of the southern Karoo and the eastern Cape. The latest information I have is that four diamond drill and two rotary drill boreholes have been completed in the Karoo. Altogether more than 40,000 ft. has been bored with diamond drills, and approximately 45,000 with rotary drills. At present Soekor has two rotary drills in operation. One is situated at Schietfontein in the Graaff-Reinet district, and the second on the farm Klein Waterval in the Prins Albert district, and both these drills have reached a depth of plus-minus 16,000 ft. In addition Geological Survey in support of Soekor have drilled with diamond drills at Colchester, near Port Elizabeth, Swartberg, Cedarville and Bergville in the Utrecht district. Sublessees of Soekor are drilling at Glen, near Bloemfontein, at Clocolan, and will soon commence drilling operations at Matatiele, while Karoo Petroleum is drilling at Vrede, and at Graaff-Reinet. Midlands Oil will, according to reports, soon commence drilling operations at Riversdale and in the Swellendam region. Then, too. Soekor will soon open up certain areas in South West Africa for subleasing, and this will take place in co-operation with the South West African Administration.

In addition I can state that up to the end of December, 1967, Soekor had spent R11,346,000 on its exploration programme, and according to the present programme Soekor’s fixed obligations in respect of two major oil drills on a three-year contract must comprise an additional R20.25 million by the end of 1969. In addition to this I just want to say that I think—and this is in fact the view taken by the Government—that in this search for oil there is no place for pessimists if South Africa’s position in the present world situation is borne in mind. We have an obligation towards future generations to at least determine, if there is no oil in South Africa—and I do not believe this at all at this stage— for those future generations that there is no oil. I am stating this at its most pessimistic. Secondly, one must at least understand that very vast sums of money are involved here, and notwithstanding the hundreds of letters which I, the Department and Soekor are receiving from people who are even going so far as to boil up iron-stone in kaffir pots, and others who are still able to see oil with the naked eye, there is only one basis on which millions of rand of the taxpayers’ money can be spent, and that is on the scientific basis which is generally accepted, with all its failings. But it is impossible for me to accept any other basis on which to spend money if it was not a scientific basis which is accepted by the world.

In addition I want to add to this now and state that up to now there has been no reason to believe, either on the part of information furnished by Soekor or on the part of information we have received from the private companies that it would be wiser not to continue operations on a very intensive scale. I do not know of a single private company who, after the investigations they made, did not go further and possibly spent larger amounts, and continued the search more intensively. That is why I maintain that there is every reason to proceed at an accelerated pace with the search for oil. I just want to mention one example. In the first two quarters a greater amount has been spent by private companies than their joint obligation for the full year. That is why I feel myself quite at liberty to inform hon. members that as far as Soekor’s next programme is concerned—that is to say, up to 1969—it is very clear to me that we will have to continue on this basis at least, and possibly at an accelerated pace.

†The hon. member for Parktown raised the question of uranium and he raised it in a manner which, I am happy to say, is more or less along the lines on which the Government is tackling this whole problem. I may tell the hon. member that both the Government and the industry are very much aware of the value of research, as well as the benefits which directly and indirectly accrue from these results; secondly, that the second five-year research programme, as the hon. member knows, is now drawing to a close, and that the programme for the ensuing five years has been submitted to me. I may also tell hon. members that it is my intention to discuss this matter not only with the Chairman of the Atomic Energy Board, but also, if time permits, towards the latter part of this month, to discuss this whole matter—I hope on the premises at Pelindaba—in the presence of the Prime Minister and also the Minister of Finance, so as to finalize this ensuing five-year programme. I may say that the current figure per annum which is being expended is R4,985,000. I also agree with the hon. member that we must not relax our efforts in looking for further deposits, as well as to solve the problems still facing the large-scale utilization of nuclear power.

*Now in addition to this I can just say that as regards the financing of this five-year programme hon. members will know that the mining industry, as well as Escom and other industries, have up to now made contributions. As soon as I have dealt with the question of the five-year-plan and know what is necessary, attention will again have to be given to this matter. I just want to point out that whether it is long term or whether it is short term, the benefits which will accrue from the brilliant work which is being done by the Atomic Energy Board will also be to the good of the mining industry. I cannot for one moment accept that the contributions being made by the industry and by Escom are not contributions which will fully justify the advantage which they will ultimately derive from it. On the other hand, we must understand clearly that we are dealing here with a strategic and a very sensitive material, and that in respect of nuclear research it is quite impossible to give the industry or the mining industry a say which is directly related to their contribution, because the Government simply has to deal with the matter of nuclear research on a highly confidential basis. That is why I simply want to inform the hon. member for Parktown that since he has made a plea for research and for increased funds for research with a view to all the advantages he sees in that, I can testify to him with the greatest responsibility, because I have knowledge of his matter, that the research in respect of this extremely strategic material, and related matters, is in the very best hands, i.e. those of the Atomic Energy Board. I am very proud of, and happy about what our scientists have been able to accomplish here. I think that I ought to leave the matter at that.

The hon. member for Virginia quoted certain figures from the report of the Department in regard to post-mortem examinations. To a certain extent this also ties up with aspects raised here by other hon. members. The hon. member for Virginia pointed out that it had been disclosed by these post-mortem examinations that a large number of people had been suffering from pneumoconiosis. In the hon. member’s opinion a mistake had been made here. But in all fondness and with all respect to the hon. member I want to say that I do not think it is sensible to view this matter in that light. May I point out to hon. members that in post-mortem examinations use is not only made of microscopic and macroscopic methods; chemical methods are also used to determine whether pneumoconiosis was present in the respiratory system of the person. In that way the presence of pneumoconiosis is discovered, which, according to the present methods, it is quite impossible to do while the person is still living. To my mind this large number of cases found to be suffering from pneumoconiosis after a post-mortem examination is a testimony of the honesty of pneumoconiosis research workers, because they did not try to gloss over or conceal a single case. On the contrary, if there is the slightest sign of pneumoconiosis, it is disclosed. Nor must we forget that the next of kin of these cases do in fact receive compensation. The hon. member for Geduld, inter alia, alleged that the percentage was difficult to justify, but I want to point out that the percentage is not really the point at issue here because the next of kin received precisely the same compensation. I am speaking of course of those above 20 per cent.

In addition the hon. member for Geduld raised the question of tuberculosis, and pointed out that perhaps the mine worker was only exposed to tuberculosis infection if he had to work in an enclosed space with Bantu labourers. But I must point out to the hon. member that the Bantu labourers have to pass a very strict test, which is for the precise purpose of determining whether they are tuberculosis sufferers or not. This is something which the hon. member must not lose sight of. This question of tuberculosis will have to be taken in conjunction with the request which was made for a general investigation, a matter which I dealt with at the outset of my reply. If such an investigation should take place, this matter would also be included.

The hon. member for Randfontein referred to certain other occupational diseases to which mineworkers are prone. The hon. member will recall that the Allen Commission, appointed in the early 50s, went into the entire matter of industrial diseases very thoroughly. But I must admit that circumstances have changed considerably since then, both as regards mining methods and scientific medical knowledge. I have an open mind on the question as to whether an investigation, such as the one requested by the hon. member is necessary or not. I shall discuss this matter thoroughly with my Department and with my medical advisers and let the hon. member know what the result of those discussions is.

In addition the hon. member for Port Natal raised a matter here which was really not necessary.

†The hon. member referred to a reply which I gave on the 14th of May in regard to the farm Boschhoek. The questions and answers are recorded in Hansard, column 5230. Except for one point, each point raised by the hon. member to-day was fully answered then.

*The position is simply this. This land was purchased by the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure, as all land is purchased, for a certain amount. I cannot be responsible in regard to whether or not it has been paid, but I am quite certain that there are in fact reasons for this. It is a question which the hon. member can advantageously put to my hon. colleague. The land was purchased for the clearance of black spots. I understand that that is the reason why it was done. I am speaking under correction, but that is as I understand the matter. Now the hon. member has come forward with a great many unpleasant accusations, which are not justified. He stated, “The people were evicted from the land because someone felt there is a good chance of prospecting.”

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

I said the suspicion is there.

*The MINISTER:

Well, then I must say the hon. member has a suspicious mind. I must say I am also suspicious of his suspicion. Let me say quite openly that all the information was given to the hon. member, every word of it. What was the reply? The hon. member asked me, according to Col. 5230 in Hansard—

  1. (1) Whether prospectors’ licences have been issued in respect of State-owned land on the farm Boschhoek in the district of Dundee; if so (a) for what type of prospecting; (b) how many licences have been issued and (c) to whom have they been issued.

I gave him the reply as follows—

  1. (1) Yes, prospecting permits have been issued;
    1. (a) To prospect for previous metals and base minerals;
    2. (b) Ninety prospecting permits.

Then I told him to whom they were given. His next question was—

Whether notices were published advising the public that permission would be given to prospect on the land concerned; if so, what notices.

The reply was as clear as daylight when I said the following—

On becoming State land the farm automatically became available for public prospecting. No notice to the effect that the farm would become so available was published.
Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

How do these people know?

The MINISTER:

It is automatic. Once that land becomes State-owned land it is open for prospecting.

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

Even if the people are still on it?

The MINISTER:

It does not matter who is on the land. All the Department of Mines concerns itself with is the fact that it has become State-owned land, and we do not go around finding out whether it has become State land, but are informed that it has become State land.

*I want to leave it at that, but I think it was entirely unnecessary in any case to introduce this kind of matter into this debate. I now want to issue an invitation to the hon. member. He has asked questions in this regard, and he has discussed this matter again to-day. I am now asking him: What is ailing him? There is something he has not yet told us. I am now asking him across the floor of the House: From whom does he obtain his information? Where does he obtain his information?

The hon. member for Krugersdorp broached the question of dust in our mining industry, and in the first place I want to tell the hon. member in regard to this matter that I am quite satisfied. I shall let him have the information per letter, because it contains long technical details about processes and research which have been undertaken as well as certain samples which have been taken. I shall furnish him with full information in regard to this matter.

The hon. member for Stilfontein also touched upon the question of a commission and raised the very important point in regard to bursaries for mineworkers’ children. R100,000 has been made available for this purpose, and it has not been fully utilized. I know that this matter lies close to the hon. member’s heart. May I just inform the hon. member that this matter is being dealt with in terms of section 85 (5), where certain formulas have been laid down in terms of which the general pneumoconiosis Board subsequently allocates these bursaries. For my own information I have gone into this matter quite thoroughly and the matter is not as simple as all that. The results, and by that I mean the progress made by students receiving bursaries are not all they should be. In addition it is a requirement that students can only obtain these bursaries if they comply with certain requirements. Their school achievements and the results of certain tests they have to undergo are taken into consideration here. I was concerned about the fact that the bursaries for school training are not allocated to persons over the age of 18.

However, the fact of the matter is that upon the death of a pneumoconiosis sufferer his child is entitled to a bursary provided he has not yet reached the age of 18, but it even goes as far as the age of 21 years. As far as the extent of the choice of subjects is concerned, I have been informed that owing to the shortage in education and in the nursing services, there are so many provincial administration bursaries available that it will not really serve any purpose to create bursaries for those professions as well. We are now investigating the matter, and I hope we shall at least succeed in having students enrolled in the pharmaceutical profession and in one other profession which I cannot remember now. Those professions will subsequently be included in the syllabuses. I want to assure the hon. member that we shall see to it that an improvement is made here at any rate, i.e. in respect of the choice of trade or profession.

In regard to the non-utilization of the full R100,000, the problem in that case as well is that thorough provision must in fact be made for future obligations as students progress, but as I have already said on a former occasion to the hon. member, I shall go into this matter again thoroughly during the recess.

The hon. member for Salt River brought up for discussion the matter of the search for oil, one which, I think, I have already replied to in detail. The hon. member also wanted to make a little political capital out of the position of the mineworker. Let me just inform him that in respect of the mineworkers’ interests there could have been no inspiration on the part of the United Party. Not only do the mineworkers know who their friends are, i.e. this side of the House, but the mineworkers know specifically that their enemies are sitting on that side of the House. Over the years up to now the mineworkers have proved this in every constituency where they became the majority. I do not want to turn this into a political issue—the mineworkers do that themselves by voting for the National Party at every election. I shall leave the matter at that.

The hon. member for Kimberley (South) raised the question of our diamond diggers. Their numbers have decreased considerably, as the hon. member indicated. But although their numbers have decreased to such an extent, the search for precious stones is still an eager one. My information is that there are many certificate holders who no longer undertake digging operations themselves and towards the end of last year the number of bona fide diggers was 329 in the Transvaal and 260 in the Cape Province. Those figures are going to decrease because it is not a profession which is expanding. Nevertheless I think that South Africa will be the poorer without these people. They are individualists; they are in the good sense of the word “a race apart”. They enrich South Africa; they do not make us any the poorer. I held discussions with them after the hon. member was kind enough to bring them to me. I must tell hon. members who have not yet made the acquaintance of the digger community: It is worth taking the trouble to become acquainted with these people. They are like the North Westerners: Nothing gets them down. The plea they made to me was that they preferred to take the risk rather than to have absolute security. They want to experience that tension, that pleasure which can be derived from the possibilities which digging work offers and the privations associated with it. They prefer those things to the security which could perhaps result from an agreement between certain parties. The Schmidtsdrift area is at present a Bantu area which is being cleared, and it will possibly become State land. I have received representations that area is a traditional diggers’ area. We shall now have to consider what we must do in this regard. Problems are being experienced in this regard but I nevertheless feel that I can state at this stage that, when the time is ripe, the Department and myself will have to make at least a part of the land available to the diminishing number of diamond diggers.

The hon. member for Rustenburg raised a matter here in regard to the platinum mines and their importance. We are well aware of the importance of the platinum mines, particularly in that region. As he himself knows, I was there not so long ago. Unfortunately I cannot accede to the request for a clinic there. As regards the research institute which he advocated, I shall go into the matter thoroughly. If it is in any way possible to establish it there, we will have to consider this matter in a very favourable light. In this regard it will coincide completely with my other obligations, i.e. the decentralization of activities. Therefore the hon. member can rest assured that, if it is in any way possible from a scientific and mining point of view, Rustenburg will in fact come into consideration for such a research institute.

It was unfortunate but I have to spend some time on the following matter, i.e. the training schools for mineworkers, or Government mining schools, as they are called. As hon. members are aware, these mining schools are jointly established by the Chamber of Mines and the Government. The training schools are organizations registered under the Companies Act and are administered by a board of directors, of which five are appointed by the Government and ten by the Chamber of Mines. I am merely furnishing this information to indicate to hon. members that in my opinion the name “Government mining schools” is in fact a misnomer. It subsequently came to my attention that there was a degree of disquiet and uncertainty amongst the staff at the 18 training centres where the young people are being trained as mineworkers, inter alia, as a result of the decrease in numbers to 750. In addition I received representations from hon. members and from other sources to the effect that it would perhaps serve a good purpose to review this matter thoroughly. It affects a considerable number of people, apart from the superintendent who is in general control. I was told that there were 115 training officers and 39 administrative officers. Hon. members will understand that it is absolutely in the interests of the industry that there should be certainty, peace and quiet at these training centres. As I have said, it has come to my attention from various sources that this is perhaps not entirely the case. I then saw fit to request a report from my representatives on that board of directors. They subsequently furnished me with information. After that the fact that I had requested this report was discussed by the board of directors, and they requested me to investigate the dissatisfaction and complaints. I just want to inform hon. members that I have complied with this request. I appointed a senior regional magistrate to undertake a private investigation and to report to me personally in regard to this matter. This investigation has already commenced. He has someone to assist him, only as far as the technical aspects are concerned. He can hear evidence, pay visits and attend lectures and has a free hand to do whatever he finds necessary in order to keep me fully informed and to advise me in this regard. He is also at liberty, if he feels so inclined, to make recommendations. I am expecting the report towards the end of August and I shall then take the necessary steps, if any arising out of the report. I should also like to place on record my gratitude and appreciation towards the Department of Justice for their kind assistance in making available to us a senior magistrate of that status, i.e. Mr. Nel, to undertake this investigation. I hope that it will result in general satisfaction, peace and quiet and that we will be able to proceed with the important work which is in fact being done at these mining schools.

I think that I have replied in general to most of the questions. If there are any questions which hon. members asked during the course of the debate to which I have not yet replied—my time is running a little short—I shall definitely check up on this in Hansard and will perhaps furnish them with written replies. Once again I want to tell hon. members on both sides of the House that I appreciate the fact that we have since Friday afternoon been able to concern ourselves with the interests of our mineworkers, a very important facet of our labour force, in this dignified way.

Mr. H. M. TIMONEY:

Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I can ask the hon. the Minister one question in regard to the shortage of geological staff? What does he propose to do to solve that problem?

The MINISTER OF MINES:

I was going to say something about it, but may I say in general that I am also very perturbed about the shortage of geological staff. I could quote figures to the hon. member: Out of 108 posts, only 54 are filled. There are 19 contractual posts, but of course we are also losing them very fast. There are four posts which are filled on a temporary basis. I have already given attention to this matter, and I have written to my colleague the Minister of the Interior, because he is responsible for the Civil Service Commission, in regard to this question. But in the near future I will deal with the whole question of not only geologists, but of scientists in general. Unfortunately I shall not be able to do so under my next Vote, Planning, but I hope to make a considered statement as to this whole question of scientists, and a possible investigation, in the very near future, perhaps this week.

Votes put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 50,—Planning, R11,920,000, and Loan Vote H,—Planning, R650,000:

Mr. S. F. WATBRSON:

Mr. Chairman, I hope the hon. the Minister is not too exhausted to listen to our discussions on this Vote. There are a number of matters, covering a very wide field, which we should like to raise with him, because the Department of Planning, as it has now developed, is really covering almost every field of the country’s activities. We have before us the report up to the end of June, 1967. When one sees the number of commissions, councils and committees of experts, universities, senior public servants, technical staff and other officials who are involved in the work of the Department in one way or another, it almost seems as if all the people in the country are being employed to plan what the other half ought to do. I do not mean for one moment to disparage the importance of planning. Actually I do not intend doing so, because we have criticized the Government from this side of the House for years its lack, or apparent lack, of systematic, long-term planning. But when one sees what is going on under the aegis of the hon. the Minister, I think one does ask oneself what the Government has been doing, during the last 20 years to make this, what one might call, planning “explosion”, necessary. It looks like a frenzied attempt to atone for the neglect of the past 20 years. I am reminded of a story of the past war when the late General Wavell was ordered to take command in the Far East when the Japanese were overrunning South-East Asia. Nothing could stop them and things were desperate. It is said that General Wavell sent a telegram to Sir Winston Churchill in which he said that he was prepared to carry the baby but that he felt bound to point out that he thought that it was going to be twins. I cannot help feeling that the hon. the Minister must have felt rather like General Wavell when he surveyed the leeway of all the years that the locusts had eaten which he was called upon to make up. This report is some indication of what the Minister is intending to do and how he is trying to do it. The report is of course a year old but I think that we might have a look at it and ask the Minister whether he can bring us up to date on some of the matters which are mentioned in the report. A number of reports had been received a year ago or were expected to be received in the near future, as far as we know. I think that the hon. the Minister might be able to enlighten us as to what has happened to these reports. His department is responsible for the preparation of these reports. They are then presumably handed on to the responsible Department. I do not know who is concerned with them after that. I do not quite know whether the hon. the Minister passes the baby of the report to the Department concerned and forgets about it or whether he follows it up and sees to it that something happens. If it is simply a committee or a commission’s report or a planning report, it is merely handed on to a Department. Unless somebody then sees that something is done about it a good deal of time, labour and money is liable to be wasted. There are a number of instances of this here and I should like to mention one or two examples. In paragraph 17, “Automation and Computation”, which falls under the heading “Scientific Planning” we see that the Council for Automation and Computation wanted to establish closer liaison with the Government. Their report on this matter was expected to be submitted to the Government very soon. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can tell us whether anything has been concluded. In paragraph 18, “Industrialized Building”, we see that a report has been submitted to the Government on the question of establishing a national advisory committee on industrialized building, dealing with industrialized building techniques and materials and malpractices. Can the hon. the Minister tell us what has happened to that report and whether any action has been taken on it? Then there was also a proposal to establish an institute for coastal engineering at the University of Stellenbosch. That was under consideration at the time that this report was compiled and certain recommendations were made. I come then to the report to which the hon. the Minister referred just now, namely the report on the subject of scientists. Negotiations were being conducted, and this was over a year ago, to make it possible to obtain more reliable information on the loss of scientists. That is a very cryptic statement. With whom is the hon. the Minister negotiating on a subject such as this? I think he said just now that he had written to someone and that he hoped to make a statement, possibly next week. I do not know why he has to do this next week and cannot give us this information while this Vote is under discussion. Over a year ago he was conducting negotiations in order to get more reliable information. This is possibly the most important point to which I have referred. If we are indeed losing scientists and technical men and the position becomes serious and remains serious, obviously the work of the hon. the Minister and his Department is largely going to be wasted. I do hope that he will be able to give us some information on this subject while we are discussing his Vote.

I come then to controlled areas. In regard to controlled area No. 1, namely the Northern Free State, we are told that a revised plan will probably be issued at the end of 1967. I have a personal interest in this matter. I think that I was responsible for starting the first controlled use of land in this area. I would be very glad to know whether the revised plan has been received, to what extent it differs from the original and what is being done about it? [Time expired.]

*Dr. S. W. VAN DER MERWE:

Mr. Chairman, I was under the impression that the hon. member had asked for the privilege of the half-hour. I was still preparing myself to listen to his many objections to the Department of Planning. I do not believe that the hon. member was fair as regards his opening remarks. Let us be fair. If the hon. member looks at the establishment of this Department, which is four years old, he will see that it consists of 183 officials only and this is not a large establishment for a Government Department. If he takes into account the tasks which this Department has gradually made its own and with which it has been entrusted in the course of four years, he will see that it was wrong of him to have spoken of so many people who wanted to indulge in planning. He wanted to know what else they were doing. In addition he asked a few other minor questions such as those I have just mentioned. All of this makes his criticism sound very shallow. He also said that the Government had been doing nothing for 20 years and now this Department wanted to do everything all at once. Sir, here we are concerned with planning. Here we are concerned with a new administrative Government Department which even in Western countries, such as France and England, only originated during the post-war years of technological development. Only then did any real need for this type of co-ordination arise. The hon. member should not use such weak arguments. I believe that this Department had definitely justified its existence during the four years for which it has been in operation and that it is still justifying the reason for its existence by acting in a way which is scientific and which other countries before long will come to regard as an example worth following. In this regard I have in mind particularly those Western European countries that are trying very hard at this stage to put their planning machinery into smooth operation in various spheres.

What I really want to do, however, is to express a few ideas in regard to regional development associations. These associations have developed over the length and breadth of our country over the past 25 years. At the moment there are nearly 50 of them in our country. What they have in view, is economic development in their regions, and the people themselves are taking the initiative. Many of these associations have carried out regional studies. Some of these have been completed. As regards some of these regional studies the Department of Planning has rendered highly valued financial assistance as well as other information services to these associations. These associations first gather the basic facts concerning their regions. From those basic facts it is possible to make an analysis of the bottle-necks and in the end a decision can be taken as to how those people can be assisted to accelerate their slow economic development. A logical consequence of such a regional study is a development plan. Giving a summary of natural resources, the population and various other factors concerning economic development is not the only purpose which such a regional study serves, but it has to give rise to a development plan and it has to reflect what the indications are of potential economic development. It is very essential that such a development plan should be drawn up; as a rule this is implied in the report or recommendations of such a regional study. We know that some regional studies were undertaken in the years following the development of the Free State goldfields; we know that development guide plans were drawn up in quite a number of areas; that some of these guide plans have already been implemented and that some, as appears from this report, have been revised for re-implementation according to the new requirements brought about by development. But in all these cases these are mostly areas in which rapid economic development is already in progress. This may be the result of stimulation provided by some large Government project or the discovery of precious minerals or mines, etc., and in such areas rapid economic development is in progress. We may say that such development gives impetus to that guide plan. It necessitates action and the implementation of these guide plans.

I should like to refer, however, to regions which we may call backward regions, regions which are hardly making any real headway economically. There are various causes for this state of affairs, and I feel that fundamental points of growth ought to be created in such regions. These regions are the vast rural areas of the white homeland, particularly in the Cape Province. We do not want these regions to be forced into economic stagnation. We know that economic decentralization is accepted policy. As far as the rural areas are concerned, their principal resources are the people in those areas. If these people offer their enthusiasm, one does not want to frustrate them by not giving attention to their requests. If the inhabitants of the rural areas have carried out certain work, with the assistance of regional studies, there is a possibility under the present set-up that the recommendations flowing from such a regional study may not be implemented in the right way or in a way which those people can understand. A certain form of industrial development or a Government project may be required for the development of a region; a particular form of infrastructure may be essential for the development of such a region; it may be essential to grant such a region border industry advantages, but the final decision remains the prerogative of every individual Department concerned. We know that the Resources and Planning Advisory Council acts as the coordinating and advisory body. We know that this Council is the forum where private initiative and the Government meet for the promotion of economic development, but in spite of the advice and the recommendations of the Resources and Planning Advisory Council the situation arises, after a regional study has been carried out and after recommendations have been made and even after the Resources and Planning Advisory Council has accepted those recommendations, that it is still necessary to go from Department to Department to advocate projects of which such a Department takes a completely isolated view and which it does not see as part of a plan approved by the Resources and Planning Advisory Council after all aspects have been taken into account and after such a project has in point of fact been viewed against the background of the best interests of the country. Mr. Chairman, I am not pleading for a super-department, nor am I pleading for full executive powers for the Department, because I know that all these things are not possible at this stage. I am simply pleading for a clearer modus operandi in cases of this nature. I am pleading for continuous action from the lower levels, routine action, up to the highest level when the matter is submitted to the Cabinet for decision. I am doing so in view of the fact that the Resources and Planning Advisory Council is an over-all advisory body, a very important one, but it has no authority to take decisions. This will prevent many of these plans from gathering dust on the shelves. I know that this will take time and I want to be fair to the Department. The development regions have not been demarcated properly. The pattern of development regions as they evolve, has not been finalized as yet. There still is a great deal of overlapping. Some towns belong to four development associations. The essential implementation of guide plans for regions experiencing rapid economic development has to be given preference. I admit this, but in conclusion I just want to ask that the Department should take the active lead in co-ordinating the work of these development associations, which have been established freely, even if the Department does so by means of calling a congress, followed by an investigation and then by a demarcation, because then these people will not feel frustrated; they will then know for sure that there is order on the road ahead. When they have travelled the road and have made their recommendations in regard to a certain region, then they will know and realize and feel satisfied that their problems will be dealt with in an orderly fashion further along that road, and that the Cabinet will take the final decision in regard to those problems. [Time expired.]

Mr. W. M. SUTTON:

The hon. member for Gordonia has been dealing here with the problem which the Minister and his Department face whenever a development association comes into being. As he has said very correctly, it is for the Minister and his Department to co-ordinate all the various sectors in government and in the economic life of our country which lead towards the development of certain regional areas. The irony of this, of course, is that we have in Natal an area which has been planned for many years. I refer, of course, to the Tugela Basin. This is an area which was planned many years ago by a far-seeing and wise Administration of the Province of Natal through the medium of its Regional Planning Commission, which prepared a blue-print which throughout the world is accepted as an absolute classic example of regional planning. The irony is that this area, which has been planned and the potential of which has been known for so long, has yet to find the inspiration, the motive-power, to get it started on the development of which we know it is capable. I want to ask the hon. the Minister how he sees the function of his Department in the future development of the Tugela Basin and the whole of the surrounding area. Sir, I want to give the hon. member for Klip River credit for taking the initiative in starting the Catchment Development Association, which is a pressure group, designed to put pressure on the Minister and the Government to get something done in this area. I want to know how the Minister sees the function of his Department and what role he thinks his Department will play in the development of this particular area. Of course, the hon. the Minister has a limited stock of goodies that he can dish out. Only one more Iscor is planned; there is a very small number of big developments that the State has at its disposal.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

Pressure won’t help.

Mr. W. M. SUTTON:

May I say to the hon. the Minister that I am quite certain that the new Iscor will be sited where the maximum number of economic considerations dictate it shall be sited, and I believe that the Tugela Basin area has by far the greatest potential in that respect. If the hon. the Minister were to make the mistake of siting any of these large projects on the basis of political considerations alone and not on an economic basis, then I think he would be making a very grave mistake indeed. The point I want to make is that the area requires some sort of seed industry to get the development going. I have raised the question of the establishment of another Iscor; this might well be what the area is needing. I would like to know whether the Minister’s Department sees this as an area in which private enterprise has to take the initiative; whether his Department has at its disposal some resources in the way of loan funds or the ability to guarantee loans to enable the Catchment Association to act positively in the way in which American cities, for example, have acted. I refer to the case of the Springfield Armoury, for instance. The town of Springfield was built about the armoury which since 1911 had been making munitions for the American Government on a very large scale indeed. It was recently announced that because of obsolescence and for various other reasons the armoury at Springfield was to be closed down. This announcement immediately brought to the town of Springfield the prospect of a depression and unemployment. The people in the area got together and raised funds. The council of Springfield and the local business community took positive steps to attract new industries to their town. They took over from the Central Government at a nominal fee the immense space under roof cover which the armoury comprised and they attracted people there to work in those buildings and even to use some of the plant which the Government had left behind. I would suggest to the hon. the Minister, if he is interested in getting these regional areas developed, that this is the sort of line that his Department should be taking. The hon. member for Gordonia is interested in the development of these regions. Sir, the local people are by far the best agencies to follow up and to chivvy the various Government departments into seeing that these obstacles and blocks on the road to development are overcome. These obstacles can and will be overcome if they have the means at their disposal. If this area of Tugela, under the Government’s policy of border areas and decentralization, is going to become something meaningful, if it is not merely going to be something which involves changing the names of half the industrial area of Natal and then claiming that all the Bantu have been repatriated from the white areas, then it has to be developed and developed soon.

An HON. MEMBER:

Do you support it?

Mr. W. M. SUTTON:

Of course I support the decentralization of industry to an area such as this which has been earmarked as a border area simply because the Government is intent on trying to prove something which otherwise is unproveable. Sir, when you move the border areas closer to areas which are natural industrial areas, you are not really solving the problem; you are just bringing them closer to where the white people live. Sir, the point about the Tugela Basin in particular is the question of water supply. The hon. the Deputy Minister of Water Affairs said that the Tugela (Basin was viewed by his Department as being the last undeveloped or potential source of water for the Witwatersrand and for industrial development in general. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether the Water Planning Commission which he has appointed has been appointed on the basis that it will look into all the potential water supplies of the Tugela Baisn. not only the main Tugela River itself but the Mooi River, the Buffalo River and other rivers in the area in order to be able to co-ordinate all those supplies and make them available for industrial development. Because this is literally one of the last major sources of water for industry in South Africa. Sir, it is a sobering thought that we in South Africa are building the whole of our industrial future on conserved water.

Mr. H. M. LEWIS:

That is a very dangerous thing to do.

Mr. W. M. SUTTON:

My hon. friend says it is dangerous. It can be dangerous. When one turns to the matter of the re-use of water and the treatment of effluent, etc., I wonder whether the hon. the Minister will not now take the step, which has not yet been taken by the Government, of making the C.S.I.R., which is part of his portfolio, the watchdog of water pollution, the agency in the Government which will be responsible for seeing that water pollution does not take place. The Water Act provides that water shall not be polluted, and they should enforce it. The Minister himself said in a previous Vote that he regarded himself as the channel through which the Minister of Finance could be approached for anything which might be necessary in the way of finance from the Government. I wonder whether he will not approach the Minister of Finance with a view to getting tax concessions made to industrial concerns which instal effluent purification plants in their factories. We know there are many factories, as in the timber industry, where the treatment of effluent is a major problem. If tax concessions can be made to these people, as is being done in America in the new campaign they have for cleaning up their water supplies, these people who are now planning the most modern treatment plants can be assisted.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

Why not the Minister of Water Affairs?

Mr. W. M. SUTTON:

Because I believe that this hon. Minister is responsible for the C.S.I.R. [Time expired.]

*Mr. P. H. TORLAGE:

It seldom happens that the hon. member and I can sit round a fire and hold an amicable conversation, but this afternoon I also want to say a few words in connection with the Tugela Basin. Before doing so, I want to say immediately that in these times everyone everywhere is talking about the population explosion. As far as this is concerned, it is necessary to discuss this in view of the fact that the population of the world was 3,400 million people on 1st January, 1968, and this figure will double itself within 40 years or less. Now, for the purposes of my speech this afternoon, I want to say this. In South Africa, with its 18 million people, we will have a population of 42 million by the year 2,000, and I foresee, and I want to emphasize this, that in future there will be many overpopulated countries in the world which will look for living space outside their borders. I want to make bold by saying that South Africa is going to be one of those countries to which many countries of the world are going to look in an attempt to acquire living space. I want to say that as a result of this population explosion which is taking place and which is going to assume even larger proportions within this short period, the hon. the Minister of Planning and his Department have the most important task. Now I want to say immediately that the constituency of Klip River, which is situated in the Tugela Basin, will give the Minister and his Department its support in this connection. [Interjections.] When grown-ups are talking, small fry should not be heard. I intend this for the ears of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District). In order to succeed in our object of supporting the Minister and in order to make a contribution not only to Natal but to the Republic of South Africa, we have established a Tugela Basin Development Association in the constituency of Klip River. Since that time this association has snowballed, so much so that parts of the constituency of the hon. member for Mooi River, who has just resumed his seat, have now also applied for membership of this association, as well as those areas of the constituency of Newcastle which are situated within the Tugela Basin.

*An HON. MEMBER:

What about Greytown?

*Mr. P. H. TORLAGE:

Greytown is not situated within the Tugela Basin, and as far as I am aware the association has not seen its way clear to go outside the borders of the Tugela Basin, because if it should do so, where would matters end? We know that the whole of Natal would like to be brought into that association.

The Natal Town and Regional Planning Committee, to which the hon. member for Mooi River referred, has made a very thorough investigation into the Tugela Basin over a period of many years. Valuable publications are available to the association and to the Minister and his Department to assist them in their future work. In other words, the Tugela Basin Development Association, which has just been established, has a sound foundation of information on which it can build, one which has already been established for it. But now I want to tell the Minister immediately that there are two things which are bothering the people of Klip River and of the Tugela Basin.

What these people are concerned about, in the first place, is that the water which may be taken from the Tugela to be pumped to the Vaal Triangle, may stimulate further development in the latter area. If this were to happen, it would have the effect of delaying the decentralization of industries. In the second place it would mean that the population pattern would become more involved. I trust that the hon. the Minister will take note of these two points, because the people of the constituency of Klip River, as a matter of fact, the people of the Tugela Basin, are concerned about these two points, and I think the hon. member for Mooi River is as concerned about this as I am, particularly as regards the complicated population pattern of the Republic.

In the second place, these people are afraid that the Tugela Basin, which offers so many advantages, may create the impression in the mind of the Minister that there is no need to take a specific project to this area in view of the fact that the potential of the area itself provides sufficient attraction for industries. It is true that the Tugela Basin is the area in the Republic of South Africa which offers the best advantages for industrial development.

Mr. H. SCHOEMAN:

Except Standerton.

*Mr. P. H. TORLAGE:

Except Standerton, where they grow mealies and pumpkins. I say this Basin is the most suitable place in the Republic for industrial development. In spite of that I want to ask of the hon. the Minister, if a third Iscor, for example, can possibly be established strategically in the Tugela Basin, that should be done seeing that would, in the first place, immediately accelerate decentralization of industries over the entire Republic, and, in the second place, provide relief as regards the population pattern in South Africa; this will be the immediate effect. The fact of the matter is that the Tugela Basin is ripe for development on a large scale. It lends itself to such development. In view of the fact that the Spioenkop Dam is being built and that Bantu residential areas are being established at Peters in the Estcourt District, immediate development on a large scale is possible. Consequently we want to make an appeal for this matter to be expedited, and we want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to do whatever he possibly can in this connection.

In addition I want to say that industries in the Tugela Basin will be to the advantage of all population groups in the Republic of South Africa, and not only in Natal, as one already has concentrations of Whites, Bantu, Coloureds and Indians in the Tugela Basin. In other words, there one is going to create a new metropolitan area and I make bold to say here this afternoon that we are going to develop an urban complex in the Tugela Basin which will put the Witwatersrand in the shade, and I say this with all respect to my hon. friends who come from the Transvaal. But these are facts and this has to be done for the simple reason that there is going to be a population explosion and that one will have to place the largest concentrations at those places which offer the greatest advantages, places where the people can be absorbed and accommodated.

*Brig. H. J. BRONKHORST:

But will it not become a Bantustan or a Zulustan?

*Mr. P. H. TORLAGE:

Included in the advantages which the Tugela Basin offers are the following. [Time expired.]

Mr. Mr. S. EMDIN:

All I would say to the hon. members of the rivers, both the Mooi and the Klip, is that we envy them their problem. You see, Sir, we in the Transvaal have additional handicaps, mainly in the person of the hon. the Minister, and whereas they can divert their rivers and can even dam their rivers, we are in the somewhat unfortunate position of being limited in the action we can take.

When the hon. the Minister introduced the second reading of the Physical Planning Bill Last May, he made a number of very important statements and gave some very important undertakings. That Bill, which is now an Act, provided that no factory can employ more Bantu to-day than it employed on 19th January, 1968, unless it has the Minister’s permission. I want to refer to what the hon. the Minister said in his second-reading speech, as reported in Hansard, Vol 21, col. 6766—

Hon. members may also rightly ask me how clauses 2 and 3 will be administered in practice and to what extent these things will be implemented by the Interdepartmental Committee to which I have referred and which is to be established in terms of clause 9 (1). During all discussions in the Department and outside I emphasized that there should be no delay as regards the performance of the functions of the Committee; that the smooth functioning of the administration should be ensured. I asked this assurance from my Department and it was given to me, because I am fully aware of the fact that when one deals with industrialists and the establishment of a new factory, and in particular with the extension of an existing factory, delays could only have a hampering effect, and in this case this must not happen. I also foresee that there will be no great difficulties because the constitution of this Interdepartmental Committee is such that they will be able to fulfil these functions. Once they have deliberated and come to certain policy decisions, which will have to be ratified by the Minister and the Cabinet, they will indeed be able to function and will be a great boon to the industrialists of this country.

Now I want to test what is actually happening against the undertakings the hon. the Minister gave during the Second Reading. In reply to questions put to the hon. the Minister, he gave the House certain information. He gave certain figures of applications that had been made to him from 19th January to 22nd February, and he gave certain figures in regard to subsequent applications which were made up to 14th May. If you summarise all these figures, you find the position to be that between 19th January and 14th May, 1968, a total of 563 applications were submitted to the Minister. Of these applications, 84 were advised that their applications were not necessary; 234 applications were granted, 43 were refused and 202 were still under consideration. It is quite clear from the figures that the Minister gave the House that of the 202 applications that were still outstanding at the 14th of May some have been waiting to be finalized for periods ranging from one to four months.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

Months?

Mr. Mr. S. EMDIN:

Yes, from the 19th of January until the 14th of May. This is a far cry from the assertions of the Minister when he told us and emphasized that there would be no delay regarding the performance of the functions of the committee he would set up in terms of the Act. The Minister knows as well as I do that industry is very concerned with the delays that have been taking place in dealing with their applications. The Minister must correct me if I am wrong, but I have been told that in some cases applications have been in the hands of the Minister or his department for nearly four months and have not been disposed of. This is a very serious state of affairs.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

Which clause are you referring to, 2 or 3?

Mr. Mr. S. EMDIN:

I am dealing with applications for additional Bantu labour.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

You information is incorrect.

Mr. Mr. S. EMDIN:

Will the Minister tell me then how long has the oldest application been outstanding as at the 14th of May. Unless the department has got a move on since then, I can only go by the information the Minister gave us last time.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

Your deductions are wrong.

Mr. Mr. S. EMDIN:

While the Minister's department is sitting on these applications the factories cannot get on with the job. They cannot plan their production; they do not know the extent to which they can commit their output. In the long run it is the end consumer who has to pay the price for any tardiness by the Minister or his department by increases in prices.

If a factory is asked to submit a tender, what happens? Unless an industrialist knows that he can get a reply to his problem of additional labour which he may need to be able to tender on a project, he runs into trouble, because he can do one of two things. He can gamble and put in his tender in the hope that the Minister will give him the additional Bantu, or he can be cautious and say, “I cannot tender, I must leave it to my competitors”, and that means he does not get the job and so we start setting up monopolies.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

What would you describe as a reasonable time?

Mr. Mr. S. EMDIN:

A reasonable time is a week. According to what the Minister told us it ought to be settled within a week or a few days. As a matter of fact, I think the Minister once made a statement that it could be settled within 24 hours. There is another question I want to ask the hon. the Minister. He received 563 applications up to May of which he told us 234 had been granted. I want the Minister to tell this Committee what he means by “granted”. What does he mean when he says “an application is granted”? Were these applications granted in full, because that is what I understand the term to mean. Were they granted to the extent of 50 per cent or 40 per cent or 30 per cent or 20 per cent? What was the position? I understand that in many cases less than 50 per cent of the additional labour that was asked for was granted. I think the Minister should tell the Committee in respect of the 234 applications he granted how many Bantu were actually applied for and how many Bantu were actually granted. When the Minister reduced the number that had been applied for did he tell the applicant the reason why he had reduced the number, and what was the basis of the reduction?

In his second-reading speech the Minister said he had deliberated with the committee and once they had made certain policy decisions they would be able to function. I want to ask the Minister whether he has told commerce and industry what his criteria are, what his yardstick is for the granting of additional Bantu labour, because as far as I can ascertain industry to-day has no idea whatsoever on what basis the Minister makes his decisions. If he does not want to have complaints from industry then it is essential that everybody should know the basis on which the Minister works. The impression is gaining ground that the decisions are ad hoc decisions and that no basic policy is being followed.

The Minister in his second-reading speech also dealt with problems he thought might arise in the implementation of the Act. He mentioned for example seasonal labour and casual labour. I want to ask the Minister what is he doing about these two problems. What decision has he come to, for example, on casual labour? He knows as well as I do that casual labour is a constant problem and the example has been quoted ad nauseum of railway trucks that have arrived and have to be offloaded in a hurry because the Railways are shouting for a quick turn-around time. When casual labour is required an application has to be made to the Minister before they can be used. I think the Minister will agree that hundreds of industrialists to-day are breaking the law because they are using casual labour which they have to do, before they can get the Minister's permission. They do not have the time to wait for permission.

I want to ask the Minister whether some of the effects of the Act have become apparent to him. First of all, he has only got three officers as far as I know, or he had them last month, namely in Pretoria, Port Elizabeth and Pietermaritzburg, which dealt with these applications. People outside those areas who want to apply for permission are having a certain amount of difficulty. Another strange, or perhaps not strange, effect of the Act is that where rented premises are being used by manufacturers the fact that permission must now be obtained from the Minister to establish a new factory has given the landlord a hold over the tenant who is now in very serious fear of being exploited, because he does not know on which criteria the Minister operates. If he is a tenant in the factory and the landlord says to him, “I am going to increase my rent”, he pays the higher rent because he does not know what the Minister's attitude will be if he moves his business to other premises. As we know, permission has to be obtained from the hon. the Minister for the establishment of a new factory. [Time expired.]

*Mr. B. PIENAAR:

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to follow up the argument of the previous speaker. As far as previous speakers are concerned, I just want to say that I was very pleased to learn this afternoon that the hon. member for Mooi River has at long last decided to support the Government's policy of border industries, and I want to congratulate him heartily on that decision.

I want to touch on another matter, and this concerns controlled area No. 9. According to the population census of 1951, the white population of the Empangeni municipal area was 1,336 at that time and in 1960 it was 2,570. The present estimated figure is just over 5,000. This gives us a population increase, calculated as a percentage on a compound basis of 7 per cent, during the period 1951 to 1960, which is fairly normal. For the period 1960 to 1967, the increase was a compound percentage of nearly 10 per cent per annum. We want to accept that this rate of increase already exceeds the normal rate of increase. We now have to ask ourselves what the future trend is going to be, and to form an opinion in this connection, we must have regard to the following matters. Firstly, the construction of the Empangeni-Richard's Bay railway line, at an estimated cost of R3.8 million, which will commence at an early date. Secondly, the electrification of the railway line from Durban to Empangeni. Thirdly, the construction of the Vryheid-Empangeni Railway line at an estimated cost of nearly R40 million with an anticipated date of completion in 1971. Fourthly, the construction of the Richard's Bay harbour which will commence within the next three years. Fifthly, the commencement of the Durban-Richard's Bay-Ogies pipeline. Sixthly, the commencement of the construction of the aluminium foundry. Finally, there is the construction by Escom of a comprehensive network of powerlines in that area. In order to emphasize the importance of the aforegoing, I may refer to the report of the Railways and Harbours Board which has been published and which contains the only official information in regard to the planned development in that area which we have obtained up to now. Paragraphs A to H of that report deal with this.

The hon. the Minister of Community Development said as long ago as 1966 that the Government had great plans as regards this Empangeni-Richard's Bay complex. He said that he was not sure whether this area would become practically as large as Durban or whether Durban would be practically as large as this area! During the opening of the Zululand Show last year, the hon. the Prime Minister said the inhabitants of the area would not recognize that area within 10 years and that this complex would be able to compare with Durban within the next 25 years.

If words mean anything, then we want to accept that this complex will experience an unparalleled growth before the end of this century. We accept that the growth will not be equally rapid at all times. We shall have times of rapid growth followed by periods of consolidation, so that if we were to draw a graph, the line would not go straight up, nor would the curve be gradual, but the graph would be one which rises and falls.

Now, if we accept a white population density of 20 per acre, and a white population of 100,000 by the year 2000, an area of well over 5,000 acres will be required for residential purposes only. Add to this the area required for roads, services, recreation, education, hospitalization, not to mention commercial and industrial development, and we may safely accept that an area of well over 10,000 acres will be required within the next 25 years. Now comes the question. Who is responsible for the development of this large area and who is going to finance that development? Who is going to provide the services in the area? Who is going to decide what areas will receive their power from the local authority or directly from Escom? Is there planning in respect of a regional water supply board? Is there planning in respect of a regional sewerage scheme, regional abattoirs, a regional cemetery? These are only a few of the numerous problems to which we have to give consideration at the present time. What is very clear, however, is that the present white population will never be able to bear that financial burden.

*The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

Is it not possible for us to find somebody else to plan the cemetery?

*Mr. B. PIENAAR:

It depends on whom we want to bury, Mr. Chairman. The costs would run into millions of rand, even if we were able to obtain loans at the present high rates of interest. The local authorities do not have the staff or the knowledge to enable them to get to grips with this programme of rapid development, and—and this I want to emphasize—advance information of this programme which will enable them to call in consultants, is simply not available. Consequently we believe that the responsibility for the development of the first stage of this programme will have to fall on the shoulders of an organization or body under the patronage of the Department of Planning and/or another Government Department. We believe that funds will have to come from the State, loans will have to be long-term ones and the fixed rates of interest low. The constitution of such a body requires deep thought. There is the possibility of a public utility company or of a special committee possibly falling under the control of the I.D.C. We have already made representations for local representatives on such a body for the sake of local knowledge and interests. mindful of the fact that co-operation with local bodies and persons is very important and necessary. In the interests of sound planning, it is recommended that when the time is ripe the complex should be placed under the control of one local authority to which the interim development authority may be transferred, and this is to happen as soon as possible. With this in view it is necessary even at this stage to standardize the regulations, by-laws, etc., of the existing local authorities so that amalgamation may be expedited and simplified. The intention of this approach is not to take over or usurp the powers and the functions of local authorities. We believe that local authorities have a very important role to play in this entire matter, and it must be possible to rely on their cooperation at all times.

I should like to touch on a second matter and this relates to the Indians in the area to the north of Durban and to the south of the Tugela River. The natural tendency at the present time is for Indians to the north of Durban and to the south of the Tugela to seek a livelihood there in larger numbers and to a progressively increasing extent. This is already bringing problems in its wake in respect of housing, services, and the provision of employment. I think the time has arrived when we may make representations to the hon. the Minister for this area to be developed and planned on a regional basis, so that it will be possible to provide accommodation, the attendant services, and especially employment to these Indians. [Time expired.]

Mr. E. G. MALAN:

Mr. Chairman, I would like to assure the hon. member who has just spoken that any agreement between the United Party's policy and that of the Government is purely coincidental and temporary. Because he must realize this: It is the United Party's policy that there shall be made economic use of Bantu labour, whether that labour be in an adjacent Native reserve, or elsewhere, while his policy is that these Bantustans will gradually become independent, and the whole of white Natal will be merely an adjunct. Under their policy one might almost say that Natal will be a white location of independent black Bantustans. That is what we reject, and that is what he favours.

I want to speak about another problem, almost as great as that of Natal in future, namely the problem of the Witwatersrand, where I come from. It has been surprising to see how few hon. members on the other side who represent seats on the Witwatersrand, have come out in defence of their constituencies against, I would almost call it, the nefarious political plans of the hon. the Minister. As a planner he has shown very few positive results, particularly as regards the Witwatersrand. In fact, as far as industry and commerce in that area are concerned he can be called “King Chaos”. He is threatening those areas with economic deterioration and even, many say, in future economic ruin. The bludgeon that he is using, is this Physical Planning and Utilization of Resources Act, which was passed last year. With this bludgeon he is to-day hitting the Witwatersrand, against all laws of economics, merely following his own ideological star or will-o'-the-wisp. I believe that his actions are becoming more and more dictatorial as time goes on, as dictatorial as his own statement that he wanted to do, or he could do, without an Opposition in South Africa, a point which I do not wish to raise and follow further here, but which I am certain will be raised later on with the hon. the Minister. It is a disgraceful statement to say that there need not be an Opposition in South Africa.

Mr. G. P. C. BEZUIDENHOUT:

What has that to do with planning?

Mr. E. G. MALAN:

It has a lot to do with the Minister of Planning, let me assure the hon. member for Brakpan. I would like the hon. member for Brakpan to tell us how many applications in his own constituency for industrial sites and for the use of African labour, were refused by the Minister, in his as well as in the adjacent constituencies depending on the town of Brakpan as the economic centre. Let him tell us that and discuss the matter with the hon. the Minister. Let there be no mistake about the express aim of the Government to slow down economic growth on the Witwatersrand, the economic heartland of South Africa, the area which contains the gold capital of the world, merely on account, as I said, of their ideological will-o'-the-wisp. Recently the Government's own Resources and Planning Council made an analysis of the Transvaal industrial areas. They decided on their own— I take it with the approval of the Minister— that—

For the Pretoria-Witwatersrand zone the economy is becoming more mature, hence the growth rate is slower than that of the country as a whole.

They said that in this region—

… the gross geographical product is over-concentrated and the area is vulnerable. Growth is relatively slow and with the decentralization programme it will slow down even more.

I want to draw hon. members' attention to those last words, “with the decentralization programme it will slow down even more”. I am. justified, therefore, in saying that this is a deliberate policy to slow down the economic growth of the Witwatersrand. Again I deplore it that so few hon. members on the other side who represent constituencies on the Witwatersrand are protesting against the deliberate slowing down of the economic growth of that important area. Until the hon. the Minister became Minister, the Witwatersrand was not so vulnerable. Its growth potential was not relatively slow, as he believes it has now become. The danger was not so great that their decentralization programme would slow down that growth even more. The hon. member for Parktown has mentioned instances of the refusal of applications for the use of industrial land and of Native labour. Let us look at the aim of the hon. the Minister, or his hope, I would almost say. Under normal growth as it was in the past, his own Planning Council told him, in the year 2000 the gross product of the Witwatersrand would be R10,300 million. Just leave the Witwatersrand alone, and that is what we shall have: An annual gross product of R 10,300 million. Then bis Planning Council says that it has to be cut down to R6,700 million by almost a third. How is this to be done. By the adaptation in terms of the Government's policy of industrial decentralization. That is the policy of the “King Chaos” that we are having in the Department of Planning. It is being followed by deliberately freezing the number of Bantus that are permitted to be employed in adjacent industries.

*The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

Do not call me names. Plead for integration directly, and have done with it.

Mr. E. G. MALAN:

If the hon. the Minister will give me a definition of the word “integration” then I will discuss it with him. But I am not prepared to discuss a term on the definition of which he and I cannot agree. By “integrated” I mean that Bantu lagour is necessary for the economic development of the whole of South Africa. Does he accept that? If he accepts that, he is also an integrationist. That is all. But to talk of integration as meaning social mixing, a mixed race, etc., is utter, complete nonsense. In other words, let him define “integration”, or let him accept my definition of integration and then we can discuss what it means.

Brig. H. J. BRUNKHORST:

It is a political catchword, that is all.

Mr. E. G. MALAN:

The hon. the Minister froze the number of African labourers on the number they were on 19th January, a foolishly chosen date, so stupidly chosen, that his own Department later had to admit that they thought they had made a mistake in choosing that particular date. In planning the way he does, he is throttling the advance of the Witwatersrand. Commerce and industry experts, who know their labour needs, now have to go almost on their knees to ask the hon. the Minister for additional labour. Firms have had to wait, and he cannot deny it, for their applications for many weeks. I believe matters have now improved. He will probably tell us that they have improved. Why? Not because of any improvement in the hon. the Minister himself, but because of the common sense of industry and commerce, which forced him to change his attitude in this regard. What sort of planning is this we are going to have on the Witwatersrand? In a leading article in the Transvaler the following appeared:

Dit is daarom goed om te weet dat die manne wat met die toepassing van die beleid in die Republiek belas is, vasbeslote is dat die keuse (om sonder Bantoe-arbeid klaar te kom) deur die blankes gedoen sal word.

Then he refers to a speech made by the hon. Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. This then appeared in a leading article:

Die tyd sal kom dat Bantoe-arbied vir niemand in die Republiek beskikbaar sal wees nie. Hierdie woorde moet in ag geneem word deur die boer op sy plaas, deur die nyweraar en die sakeman in die stad en deur die vrou in haar huis.

Bantu labour will be available to no one in the Republic. Is that what he is aiming at? If that is so, he is aiming at the economic ruin of South Africa. Let me mention some of the other results of his policy. Thirdly, where approval has already been received from other authorities to employ additional labour within a local authority or for contract labour, the permission of die hon. the Minister is still required before this labour can be hired. [Time expired.]

*Mr. T. N. H. JANSON:

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to reply to the speech made by the hon. member for Orange Grove. The hon. the Minister has already said enough about it by way of interjection. I just want to mention something to the hon. member which is the opposite of what he said. In view of his plea for the Witwatersrand, I am sure that hon. members on this side of the House who come from the Rand would also do so if they were given the opportunity, but I am sure they would do so in a way which would differ from the viewpoint of the hon. member for Orange Grove. I also represent a constituency where tremendous industrial development is anticipated. I should like to see Witbank and Middelburg develop. However, I want to say to the hon. the Minister and the Government that if Witbank must be developed at the expense of the future of South Africa, then Witbank must rather not be developed. [Interjections.] It is an inherent part of members on this side of the House that, if we have to choose between personal interests and national interests, we choose, as we always do, that parochial and personal interest be subordinate to the interests of the country and the people. If the hon. member wants to plead for the Witwatersrand where this serious retardation is supposed to exist, I just want to ask the hon. member to think in the first place about what his Government, the party which he subsequently decided to join, did in order to bring about proper and orderly development on the Witwatersrand. Before he levels reproaches across the floor of this House, I want to ask him whether he still remembers Moroka, where the labourers were accommodated in factories on the Rand. This is something this Government inherited from the previous Government. The Government had to clean up those things for the sake of the industrialists of the Witwatersrand as well. I want to ask him what was done by that Government as far as the conservation of water sources for the Witwatersrand is concerned, a matter which was referred to this afternoon as well. Of course, that side did nothing. That is why we had a water crisis, which this Government had to cope with. The hon. member for Orange Grove will do well to think about those things and to see things as he saw them at the time when he was editor of the Kruithoring.

I want to leave the hon. member at that, and I want to thank the Secretary of the Department and his officials for the report which they submitted and which gives an indication of the extent to which this Department has grown under the guidance of the hon. the Ministers in the few yeans of its existence. It is true that this Department has only been in existence for a few years. Both Ministers who dealt with these portfolios and the officials concerned, proved to the country during these past few years how necessary it was for a Department of Planning to have been established.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

It certainly was necessary after 20 years of Nationalist Government.

*Mr. T. N. H. JANSON:

I want to ask that one more job be given to this Department if they can find the time to do it, namely to plan a reorganization of the United Party, especially with a view to throwing the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) out of that party.

*The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

I only tackle big projects.

*Mr. T. N. H. JANSON:

I think that proof has been given of how important this Department is within the whole Government framework to the interests of our country.

I want to say a few words about a few matters. I do not want to be critical when doing so, but I just want to get more clarity and to ask whether the modus operandi of the activities of this Department cannot be improved in any way, I am referring in the first place to the work done by the Group Areas Board. I want to confine myself to the case in the Transvaal where quite a number of Coloured group areas have already been proclaimed and Where it has been laid down as the policy of this Department, as we see on page 7 of the report, to endeavour to proclaim group areas for the Coloureds in the Transvaal with the least possible disruption. The assertions made here that the Coloureds in the Transvaal do not like to live among the Bantu, are absolutely true. The Coloureds in the Transvaal prefer to have their own group areas. They do not want to be accommodated among the Bantu. It is also true, as is stated in the report, that the rural Coloured community is so small that the expense is not justified in proclaiming a group area for Coloureds in every small town. I think that it is necessary to notice appreciatively that the Department has been trying to meet the Coloureds in the Transvaal in respect of Coloured group areas with as little disruption as possible. Five areas in particular, apart from those in the Witwatersrand-Pretoria-Vereeniging complex, have been set aside. One of those areas is Witbank. I want to assure the hon. the Minister that the local authority there and other organizations concerned, will do their best to plan for our Coloured population with the least disruption and to their utmost satisfaction. But I think that it must be remembered that there is still a lack of coordination between the Department of Planning and the Department of Community Development. I do not want to discuss a Vote which has already been approved, but I notice from the report that the Department of Planning has also drawn attention to this shortcoming, namely that there is some lack of coordination as regards the necessary preliminary work, that is to say the gathering of statistical data about the number of people that must be re-settled, the financial requirements to accommodate them, the areas available and the availability of employment opportunities with a view to making the best possible use of this Coloured labour force. In the second place, this cannot be followed up satisfactorily after a group area has been declared by the Department of Community Development. I do not want to criticize this Department, but the fact is that there are certain problems of overlapping which cause disruption for the Coloureds and which make it difficult for the authorities concerned to carry out this task properly. I therefore want to ask the hon. the Minister to consider whether attention cannot be given to this matter by his Ministry to deal with these difficulties of overlapping and other related difficulties.

I was also glad to read in the report that the committee of inquiry into the Republic's water sources which had been appointed would fall under this Department. One of the terms of reference of this committee is the following: “The systematic development, safeguarding, stabilizing and conservation of the available and potential water supplies and water sources.” I want to leave the matter by asking a question, namely, while the conservation of the available sources is being discussed here, may I just mention the question of the pollution of the streams, as the hon. member for Mooi River did, too. This pollution creates a serious danger to our country, so much so that at some time or other finality will have to be reached as to which Department is responsible not only for the investigation, but also for the elimination of this pollution. In this connection I am referring particularly to the pollution by exhausted mines. I think the C.S.I.R. published a report in respect of Natal in which it warned that present conditions could lead to a crisis within 20 years, especially at the upper reaches of the Tugela. A similar investigation was also carried out in the Witbank-Middelburg area to point out the danger which existed there as a result of water being polluted by exhausted coal mines. This danger may develop to such an extent that it may create a major crisis for large parts of our country. I shall be glad if the hon. the Minister can give us an indication of how the commission can carry out this part of its terms of reference properly.

I also notice from the report that the Resources and Planning Advisory Council was asked, according to Government policy, to investigate the subdivision of land into small pieces of good farmland for agricultural and residential purposes. In this connection I just want to point out that land is sometimes subdivided into smallholdings by speculators without their making provision for the necessary services, services such as roads, schools and other services which may be required later. This matter creates endless problems. [Time expired.]

Mr. H. M. LEWIS:

Mr. Chairman, it is very nice of the hon. member for Witbank to want to sacrifice the future development of his area for the benefit of South Africa, after having made sure that coal mines cannot be moved and that the steelworks have already been built! Otherwise the sentiment he expressed is something which we must admire.

I want to take part in this debate from a different angle. First of all I should like to associate myself with the criticisms expressed by the hon. member for Constantia and also by the hon. member for Zululand, of this report. You see, Sir, this hon. Minister is being held up as a veritable Czar of planning, the solution to all the problems facing South Africa. But if one goes through this report, one finds that it contains no information at all. Take, for example, the two instances also referred to by the hon. member for Constantia. First of all, there is paragraph 19 of the report referring to a full investigation which has been carried out in regard to the question of an Institute for Coastal Engineering at the University of Stellenbosch. But there is no indication here whatsoever of the recommendations which have been made, e.g. whether it has been recommended that such an institute be established or whether it has been recommended that it should not be established. Because this is a most important subject, I should like to have some further information about it. Then there is paragraph 21 referring to negotiations which have been conducted to make it possible to obtain more reliable information about the loss of scientists.

In the first place, with whom have negotiations been conducted? Secondly, more reliable information than what other information? More reliable, for instance, than that which he can get from the hon. the Minister of tihe Interior? If that is so. I am in absolute agreement with this hon. Minister.

I shall confine myself mostly to harbour investigations. Here we come to paragraph 42 of this report, which we can consider under the heading “Milnerton/Rietvlei area”. According to this report this area is being investigated with the eye to establishing a fishing harbour. It is pointed out that these investigations are being delayed on account of investigations into sand movements being carried out in Pretoria. Maybe this is one of the reasons why the hon. the Minister wants to establish these facilities at Stellenbosch. I sincerely hope it is so. I myself went to see some of these experiments in December last year and by that time these experiments had just got under way. They were far behind schedule.

However, I should like to know from the Minister whether this area is still being planned with an eye to the establishment of a fishing harbour? Or has some rethinking taken place in view of the committee which has been appointed to investigate the. possibility of developing Rietvlei as a big commercial harbour, as an extension of Cape Town Harbour in fact? These things have been mooted and discussed in debates with the hon. the Minister of Transport. But here we have a report that it is to be developed as a fishing harbour. Many thousands of rand have been spent by people on investigations of the possibility of establishing a shipbuilding industry in this area, as also at Saldanha Bay to which I shall come just now. But according to this report we are still talking about fishing harbours and the like, for this area. What is in fact happening here? Is it being investigated purely and simply as a fishing harbour or are various Departments looking at it from different angles? I do not know.

Surely, if this hon. Minister is doing the planning, he should be doing the planning. If it affects the harbour Department and the hon. the Minister of Transport is going to handle it, let us then be told who is in fact going to handle this issue. This applies again to containerization, I think, which is an aspect I will touch if I have the time later on. This is some of the information I would like to have in regard to this area, because it is of vital importance to South Africa at the moment. It is obvious that the Suez Canal route is not going to be reopened for a considerable time and if we are still thinking in terms of Rietvlei as a fishing harbour, we are obviously never going to catch up and never going to cope.

I would now like to come to the question raised by the hon. member for Zululand. Paragraph 43 of the report in regard to Richard's Bay says practically nothing. It is not really a report at all. It consists of only 3½ lines and says—

The planning of the Richard's Bay area has already been commenced and will receive constant attention. It has been announced that an aluminium foundry will be established at Richard's Bay.

This is going to be the biggest and most important harbour in South Africa, according to the hon. the Minister of Transport, and I think it will be. In spite of this we have the hon. member for Zululand beseeching and begging the hon. the Minister for Information to try and see in which direction the planning is going. He himself has had to rely on information he received from the Railways. That is the only information the hon. member said that he had, here this afternoon. Local authorities, according to the hon. member, do not know what is happening. They do not know who is going to finance the land purchase which are going to be necessary and who is going to finance the development. He is looking for this information now. I think that this information should be more readily available and that at least the local authorities should know something of what is going to be expected of them in the development of this area. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can tell us and I hope that he will.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister one more question in connection with Richard's Bay. He talks about the aluminium smelter. Where is the bauxite an aluminium ore, for this smelter going to come from? I will be quite honest with the hon. the Minister. I have heard that it is coming from Australia and Malawi. Will he tell us whether this is correct? I would also like to know from the hon. the Minister how it is going to be transported to Richard's Bay. Will new railway systems be necessary to handle this development or what transport system is envisaged? I understand that Malawi has such huge deposits of bauxite that it will last our smelter for many many years to come. I would like to know if we are contemplating getting that ore and, if so, what means are going to be used to transport it.

The MINISTER OF MINES:

As far as the planning is concerned, I can tell the hon. member that the bauxite will be there.

Mr. H. M. LEWIS:

The hon. the Minister can tell me in his reply where it is coming from. In paragraph 44 of the report, the planning of Port St. Johns harbour as a trading harbour is mentioned. It states that a report is being made available. Has this report been published? Could we have access to this? It would help if we could criticize, because our criticism in the past has been of assistance to this Government and South Africa. I am quite sure that some constructive criticism might well help to spur this hon. Minister on. If we do not have the information, we are coming back to his theory that he does not need an Opposition.

I believe he needs an Opposition and if he would make this information available to the Opposition I am sure that we could help him, or spur him on to get these reports out quicker and better and perhaps to get on with the job sooner. In regard to Port St. Johns I would like to know whether the hon. the Minister is planning to make it a commercial harbour. What depth of water is he planning there? What wharfage is going to be supplied and will cranes be provided to work ships? These are questions I want answered, because the hon. the Minister invites them in his report. The hon. the Minister says that there is a report, but I think it is essential that we should know what the position is.

Lastly I want to deal quickly with his report in regard to St. Helena Bay and Saldanha Bay. I want to refer to paragraph 49 in connection with a Namaqualand Coast harbour. I take it that he means, St. Helena Bay, Saldanha Bay and a Namaqualand Coast harbour together. What are the hon. the Minister's intentions there? What does he hope to do? Does this in fact tie up with the rumoured ore pipeline? What prospects are there for the shipping of ore from the West Coast? Is it going to be practical or not? If it is going to be practical, what capacity ore carrier is he going to equip the harbour to handle? This is a very important matter. It is not sufficient for the hon. the Minister to say that he is going to establish a harbour on the West Coast for the conveyance of ore. The economic aspect must be considered fully and absolutely. These are just a few of the questions the hon. the Minister can be asked on his planning of harbours and what he has in mind for the various matters which I have put before him. I wish I had more time to discuss the position more fully with him, but unfortunately I do not have that time.

*Mr. J. W. VAN STADEN:

Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member for Umlazi was, as usual, unnecessarily biting and spiteful. Nobody has ever held up the hon. the Minister as somebody who is going to solve all the problems in connection with planning immediately. Neither has the hon. the Minister said so himself. This is too enormous a task, because little or nothing has been done about this matter over the last three centuries.

I would like to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to a certain matter in connection with the nuclear power-station on the West Coast. The fact of the matter is that suitable seaside resorts, particularly in the vicinity of the Peninsula, are very scarce. On the West Coast, in the immediate vicinity of Cape Town, there is not one place suitable for a Coloured seaside resort. The problem is that Bloubergstrand and Melkbosstrand are overcrowded during week-ends and holidays. After lengthy consideration it was decided to proclaim an area for Coloureds, known as Ouskip, on the West Coast immediately north of Melkbosstrand. This area was proclaimed by the Department of Community Development and immediately afterwards the Cape Divisional Council started to build a road to the area. While negotiations were still being conducted between the Divisional Council and the owner of the land, Escom purchased the site for the erection of a nuclear power-station. I want to say immediately, and I do not want to be misunderstood, that I want to express my gratitude towards Escom and the Department of Planning for the fact that the nuclear station is to be erected on that site.

*Mr. J. A. L. BASSON:

Is it still going to be erected there?

*Mr. J. W. VAN STADEN:

Yes, if it is decided accordingly. I feel that some combination could be effected between the nuclear power-station and the sea-side resort. We visited the area some weeks ago together with the Secretary and other officials of the Department of Planning, the Provinsial Administration and divisional councils of Cape Town and Malmesbury, as well as the chairman of the Atomic Energy Board. I am no expert, but according to what I hear there should not be a densely populated area within a range of two miles from the nuclear power-station. The water required for the power-station has to be taken from the sea at a rocky part of the coast. Unfortunately, the only area along the west coast where such a rocky area is to be found and which is not heavily populated, is precisely in the vicinity of Ouskip. As a layman, I see no reason why the nuclear power-station cannot be erected two miles inland. The seaside resort, which is a suitable one, can still be established in that area. If this is done, it may cost slightly more, but on the other hand not only the Coloured sea-side resort which will be lost there, because between Melkbosstrand and Ouskip there is another white seaside resort, which is a very suitable terrain and which has already been divided into plots. If the nuclear power-station is erected at the coast, it will mean that white beach will also fall within the two-mile zone, which should preferably not be densely populated. I honestly think that it will be more economic to have the nuclear power-station erected away from the coast. I believe and I hope that, although problems will be experienced as regards the soil formation, it will be possible to do that. I raise this matter, because I hope the hon. the Minister will do something to reach finality in this matter as soon as possible. It is in the interest of all race groups that finality should be reached as soon as possible. The Divisional Council of Cape Town is prepared to do its share, and the provincial administration is also prepared to tackle the matter. Everyone who is concerned with this matter is ready to act. As I see it, there is no other suitable beach in the immediate vicinity in that part of the west coast. For that reason it is necessary that finality should be reached on the part of the Department and of the hon. the Minister.

Before I sit down, I cannot refrain also from thanking the divisional council of Cape Town for their co-operation as regards the implementation of the policy of the Government, as contrasted with the Municipality of Cape Town which is not very keen to assist in obtaining sea-side resorts for Coloureds. Because we are enjoying this goodwill on the part of that body, I think it is most necessary that the hon. the Minister should help us to obtain finality in this matter as soon as possible.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Malmesbury has put certain questions and suggestions to the hon. the Minister about the establishment of a nuclear power-station. To my mind there are two questions which arise. The one is whether it has now been finally decided that nuclear power-station will be in this locality.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

This should have been discussed under the previous Vote.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

Not necessarily. This is the whole point with that hon. Minister. As soon as we ask him a pertinent and direct question he says that it is not his decision. What is his function?

The CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member had the opportunity to discuss that matter within the last 24 hours.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

Sir, I am discussing the functions of the hon. the Minister. What is the function of the Minister?

The CHAIRMAN:

Order! The Mines Vote has been dealt with and the amount has been voted.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

I still say that I do not know what the function of this hon. Minister is. Every time we put a question to him he says that it is somebody else's baby.

The CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member should have raised this matter under the Mines Vote.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

Sir, I am merely replying to the hon. member for Malmesbury. He was the one who raised this matter of the nuclear power station.

The CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member did not raise the question of atomic energy.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

At any rate, there is nothing to be gained by wasting more time on this. Let me come to something which I do not think the hon. the Minister can wriggle out of by saying that it falls under somebody else. Sir, I want to talk about the Coloured communities in Southern Natal. We have around the villages in Southern Natal—Richmond, Harding, Ixopo, Umzimkulu, Umzinto and various others,—settled Coloured communities who have been there for well over a hundred years. The actual numbers, unfortunately, are not obtainable, but I do know that they run into hundreds of families. These people are businessmen, farmers, labourers, shop assistants and artisans. In fact every single motor garage and every aspect of the building industry in that area is wholly dependent upon the Coloured people for artisans. Sir, they also form an integral part of these towns and villages and of their economic wellbeing. In many, as I have said, they are the only artisans and the Whites and the Bantu are dependent upon them. At the moment there is within those communities a terrible feeling of uncertainty, of being completely unsettled, although many of them have been there for over a hundred years. Many of them have title to property and many of them even own large farms. This uncertainty is being caused through failure by the Minister's Department to zone certain group areas for them, to set aside certain definite areas for the Coloured people. We find in this report that places like Richmond and Umzinto have been zoned, but that no provision has been made for the Coloureds. White areas have been zoned and in some instances Indian areas have been zoned. We find that in places like Ixopo, investigations were carried out as far back as 1964 but that no decision has yet been taken. I have here a letter received from the chairman of the Town Board of Richmond in Natal, which reads amongst other things—

I have been asked to write to you by the local Coloured community in regard to the difficult position in which they have been placed owing to the Group Areas Board having made no provision for them in their zoning of Richmond.

They have asked me to do what I can about it. Sir, I want to know from the hon. the Minister what his plan is in this regard. As I said these people are living there at the moment with a feeling of insecurity. They feel that they have the sword of Damocles hanging over their heads; they have no permanence at all and they are continually faced with the threat of removal. Sir, it goes a bit further than merely a bit of dilatoriness on the part of the hon. the Minister's Department in actually zoning those areas. There are very strong rumours going round Natal that the idea of the Minister's Department is to remove those people from those townships and to concentrate all the Coloured people from the Southern area of Natal in one centre, and it is rumoured that they are going to be settled near Mariannhill, in the Pinetown district. I do not want the hon. the Minister to fob this off again and to say that this is not his responsibility. I wonder if he can give this Committee and the Coloured people of Southern Natal an answer to the following questions: First of all, is it his intention to proclaim group areas for the Coloured people in the townships of Southern Natal? If it is not his intention to proclaim those areas and to leave these Coloured communities in those settlements, where does he intend to resettle them? Thirdly, when will he resettle them? If his decision is to resettle them in one concentrated area, I want to point out to him that such a move can only be to the detriment of the communities of these villages as a whole. In fact, I would go so far as to say that some of those villages in Southern Natal will die; they will become ghost towns if the Coloured people are removed, because the white population cannot keep going on their own without these Coloured people. Sir, I want to make a plea to the hon. the Minister —I know, or at least I hope, that no decision has yet been taken—to leave these people where they are and not to remove them. This wholesale movement of people, which is usually accompanied by a cynical disregard for the feelings of a settled community, means that these communities are going to have to dig up roots which have grown deep into the ground over a period of a hundred years. Another question that I would like to put to the hon. the Minister is this: If they are removed and concentrated in one area, will employment opportunities be provided for all the employables before they are moved? Secondly, will schooling, hospital and other social amenities be provided before they are moved and settled in these areas? There is yet another aspect. Many of these people, as I have said, are farmers. They have their own farms. What is the hon. the Minister's intentions?

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

Surely the hon. member knows that is a function of the Department of Community Development.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

With submission, Sir, here once again we have the hon. the Minister passing the buck.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

I am not passing the buck.

Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

What is the function of this Minister and his department if it is not the co-ordination and the planning of this sort of thing? The hon. the Minister's department has established an inter-departmental committee to consider this matter. His department has formed this committee, not the Department of Community Development. I submit that it is the Minister's function to co-ordinate this and I do not want this passing of the buck. We want straight answers to our questions. Sir, I was dealing with the position of these farmers. What is the attitude or his department or, if he does not want to accept responsibility, what is the attitude of his committee which is investigating this matter towards the farmers? Will they be compensated with farm land or are they going to be made to go into some other business or trade? If they are going to be compensated with farm land can the hon. the Minister tell us. Where are there areas set aside for Coloured farmers?

Sir, in the few minutes still at my disposal I want to raise one other point with the hon. the Minister where once before he ducked away when I tried to pin him down, and that is with regard to the question of the future of Hammarsdale. The hon. the Minister knows that I asked him about this once before and at that stage he appeared to be ill-informed. I made a plea the other day to his colleague, the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, to advise this Minister what he is doing at Hammarsdale so that this Minister, when he plans the development, will know where he is going and what he has to plan for. I want to ask this Minister the pertinent question now which I put to his colleague: Does he plan any further industrial development at Hammarsdale? We have had the reports of the Permanent Committee for the Location of industries and I know what they say, but I have the impression that both this hon. Minister and the hon. the Minister of Economic Affairs do not know what the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration is doing, or that they did not know, and I hope that since I spoke to the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development they have been told, because the hon. the Minister is creating a flash point at Hammarsdale if he is going to settle in that area 100,000 Bantu people with an employment potential of between 30,000 and 40,000 with only 5,000 to 6,000 jobs. This appears to be the road on which this Government is moving, and I submit that it is the function of this hon. Minister to co-ordinate and to let us see a direct development. [Time expired.]

*Dr. C. V. VAN DER MERWE:

I should also like to make a submission. I do not think it is necessary to take any notice of that hon. member. One can talk nonsense, but as much as he talks—and what is more, he is presumptuous about it—I have not yet heard before.

*Mr. E. G. MALAN:

Reply to what he said.

*Dr. C. V. VAN DER MERWE:

I have never yet seen anybody as presumptuous as he is when he bangs upon his bench and says: “I want to tell the Minister”, etc.

I want to say a few words about the people in my region. I want to speak about the middle region of South Africa, the major part of which consists of the Free State. The Free State has experienced considerable stress and strain recently, but I do not think it is fair to consider that area as one that is continually subject to stress and strain and in which there are constant witch-hunts. It is indeed an area with many problems because we do not have the same development potential that some other areas have. But I believe it is an area the development of which is perhaps as important as that of the more metropolitan areas.

As in many Western countries, the settlement factors which gave rise to the establishment of many small towns in the rural areas are of an historical nature. In the meantime the economic conditions have changed and other circumstances have come into play. Due regard must be had to these forces and influences in our present planning. The development of a sound rural economy is, where such development is indeed possible, a primary necessity for the community development of South Africa. It is necessary to such an extent that it requires special attention and assistance on the part of the State. The small number of urban complexes with their apparent wealth and material prosperity in contrast with a declining countryside will not, in the long run and seen from a national point of view, bring about sound community development. It is a fact that the prosperity of a community depends upon the community itself, but it is equally true that the standard of community development in any region is to a large extent determined by its economic development potential. It is a common statement that development has to spring from the community itself. I want to say that some communities have become depopulated to such an extent that it is no longer possible for development there to spring from the communities themselves. Decentralization in the direction of border areas is necessary, but subordinate to that there is the stimulation of economic vitality in these rural areas. A far more comprehensive development programme is needed. The inherent value of a vigorous rural population, as seen in a wide socio-economic perspective, cannot be measured in terms of statistics alone. This value must not be under-estimated or minimized. It is therefore very necessary that, while we are planning the exploitation of our material riches and the development of our industries so carefully, the rural sector should also receive its fair share in this national planning. Agricultural planning is very necessary in this regard.

The hon. member for Gordonia pleaded this afternoon for better communication from the central authority, for more effective communication from the higher authorities to local communities, and I should like to agree with him. I think we have a need for better communication. A democracy is only a democracy if it is a well-informed democracy.

We are not concerned exclusively with the development of our manufacturing industries; we are concerned with the development of human beings. After all, the development of the human material of an area is what is of most value. It is for this reason that I am concerned about this area, and I almost want to say the entire area from the Drakensberg south of the Vaal River and extending westwards, an area which is to a large extent considered to be the white heartland of South Africa. If we neglect these people and the fundamental qualities of faith and stability, something will be lacking in the human material on which our future has to be built. If we show a lack of initiative and enterprise now, we will realize later that we have lost our opportunities. Therefore I want to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister to give his serious attention to this area.

If I may also refer to the report of the Department of Planning, I cannot but say that I am a little disappointed with it, because I notice that the Resources and Planning Advisory Council consists of 33 members, only one of whom comes from the Free State. I want to say that I have the most pleasant memories of this department and that they have always been extremely helpful to me. An office of this Department in the Free State will mean a very great deal to us. I think the Minister can do something for us in this respect as well.

A socio-economic survey conducted in my constituency has brought four points to our notice. Firstly, there has been an increase in the total population of that area. Secondly, there has been a decrease in the white population of that area. Thirdly, the average age of the white population in that area has risen. In other words, one must deduce from that, fourthly, the age gap between Whites and non-Whites in that area is increasing. Hence my concern. The hon. the Minister of Finance made a speech during the past week in which he made an appeal to the Western Cape Province: Keep your people here; do not let them go to the Witwatersrand or the Vaal Triangle. If that appeal made by the Minister is applicable to the Western Cape, it is much more applicable to us in the Free State. It is essential for us to keep our human material there. We are asking the Department to assist us in this regard.

Mr. L. G. MURRAY:

The hon. member for Fauresmith has raised a matter of a nature which the hon. the Minister will, no doubt, reply to. But I would say to him that, if he is looking for sympathy from us of the Cape Province, I think he must ask some of his colleagues to drop their territorial ambitions, as far as some portions of the Cape Province is concerned.

I do not think there is one of us in this House who does not wish to see the rapid development of our Republic based on sound economic planning, and development and progress which will ensure: firstly, our self-sufficiency in as many industrial fields as possible; secondly, a balanced economy; thirdly, the maximum use of the manpower which is available; and fourthly, and above all, an increase in the productivity and the economic well-being of all sections of our population. This hon. Minister's responsibility in the economic planning is of course very wide. It is far too wide for us to cover all its aspects in the time at our disposal. Whilst the department, through its advisory councils and committees to which the hon. member for Constantia has referred, is investigating a multitude of matters, I wish to-day to mention to the hon. the Minister what I believe to be some of the shortcomings in the planning, and matters in which the Government is failing to give adequate attention.

Only last week in this House the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development made a statement and emphasized what he termed “the interdependence” of African States and of states in the southern part of the African continent. I welcome such an approach and such a statement, because it is a departure from what has for a long time been the thinking in economic planning, so far as this country is concerned. I believe that this Minister has an immediate problem and a challenge which cannot be left unattended much longer. That is that in economic planning within the Republic of South Africa, there is the acceptance of the fact that there is an economic interdependence in South Africa of the racial groups, one upon the other. If we are facing economic planning, as the hon. the Minister was frank enough to tell us when we debated the Physical Planning Bill, we are planning to implement a policy, the Bantu policy of the Government, as a primary consideration in the siting of industrial development in this country. When we in the past have referred to this interdependence between the races, and the fact that they are interdependent daily upon each other in our industrial and commercial life, it was suggested from the other side that it is integration. I hope that now that the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development has said that the states of Africa are interdependent, we are not now going to have that considered as integration between the black states and the Republic of South Africa. I need not enlarge upon the extent. The hon. the Minister is well aware of the contribution to our industrial and economic life which is being made by the non-Whites in this country. Of the persons actively employed in industries and in commerce, they form a section which bears a relationship to the proportion they constitute of the population in this country of ours. But their preparation to play their part in the future is not receiving, I believe, sufficient attention. A professed creed of separate development has so often been used as a reason, more than as a positive industrial and commercial reality. The more we progress as a nation, the more the responsibility rests upon the Coloureds and the Bantu people to fill more technical and responsible occupations.

The hon. the Minister of Planning in October last year issued a statement, which I think was welcomed, that at last there was some attempt to co-ordinate the question of investigation into medical education. He issued a statement that a committee had been appointed. If I may say so, its composition of men directly interested in and concerned with education, is one which gives pleasure to those concerned with this matter. This committee has been appointed to make a thorough investigation into all aspects of further medical training, and to consider the medical training of Whites and non-Whites simultaneously. He knows what the target and the need is, not only in the medical sphere but in other spheres as well. When we look at the present position, we find the fact staring us in the face that in all the Bantu university colleges there are only 897 students who have obtained a matriculation standard. Less than 500 matriculants are being added every year. When one looks at the Coloureds one finds that in 1967 only 257 Coloureds obtained exemption passes out of 1,500 enrolled matriculants. So approximately 750 Bantu and Coloureds were available for post-matric study at the beginning of this year. That is the total source from which we are to draw the executive and professional classes for the non-white people of this country. Separate development becomes completely empty when we look at this state of affairs; it becomes a theory and not a policy. This is the position we find after 20 years of Nationalist rule and of separate development. I want to say that failure to plan adequately for the use of this manpower will have serious results. We must use it more. The Minister knows to what extent in industry and commerce we rely on the non-white manpower, and we are increasing our reliance on them. Unless this is put right we face grave dangers.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

What would you say is the remedy?

Mr. L. G. MURRAY:

I attempted to suggest a remedy to the Ministers who deal with the different race groups, but as far as this Minister is concerned I am saying to him that the problem is far more extensive than can be solved by presenting a blue-print because the blue-print does not contain the infra-structure of which we hear so much from the other side. It goes for the Whites as well. Too many of our white children are not receiving the maximum education which they should receive. They are leaving school for economic and other reasons. I mention this because I believe it is a grave problem which we must face and there is no easy solution which one can give across the floor of the House. It is alarming to see the progress is so very slow, as it has been.

I turn to another matter, one which I regret has not been taken further this session, and that is the matter to which the Minister referred in the Other Place and to which he gave attention in the form of a draft Bill, namely some method of co-ordination of medical research. The information given by the hon. member was quite alarming. [Time expired.]

*Mr. L. LE GRANGE:

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to reply fully to the various matters raised by the hon. member who spoke before me, except to say that it should be very clear to him and to anyone else that it has never been the policy of this side of the House that the various races should not rely upon one another in some or other respect in the economic field. However, this is a political question which can be argued on another occasion. I think that this is an old piece of criticism which the hon. member levelled at us repeatedly here this afternoon. I think that if the hon. member considered very carefully what he had said this afternoon about the alleged lack of planning on the part of the Government in respect of the non-Whites, namely the Bantu, Coloureds and Indians, and if he reconsidered what he had said in reply to the hon. the Minister's question, he would honestly have to admit that the particulars which have been supplied repeatedly in this House, indicate that this Government has gone and is going out of its way in respect of the planning of secondary education, in particular, for the Coloured groups in South Africa. I cannot understand how the hon. member wants to bring this reproach against the hon. the Minister into a debate on planning. Only a few days ago the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education silenced the hon. member for Houghton, in particular, with comprehensive arguments and statistics in respect of education and secondary education for the Bantu. I think the hon. member would do well to read the reports of that debate.

*Mr. L. G. MURRAY:

Are you satisfied with the figures that were furnished?

*Mr. L. LE GRANGE:

Yes, I accept the particulars and figures which the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education furnished. I know that he would give no figures and particulars to this Committee which are not correct and which he does not regard as correct to the best of his knowledge.

There is another matter which I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister, and that is the establishment of a faculty of engineering at a certain university. In recent years this matter has become very important, particularly in view of the acute and continually increasing shortage of qualified engineers in South Africa. One thinks of a Department such as the Department of Water Affairs, which has a shortage of between 70 and 80 civil engineers. It is essential that this shortage be supplemented as soon as possible with a view to the welfare and the economic development of our country. In this connection I want to refer to certain findings and recommendations of the Straszacker Commission, which was appointed by the Government as far back as 1957. The Commission's report was published in 1965. The Commission stated, inter alia, that the number of persons with bachelor degrees in pure and applied sciences stood at 42 per cent in respect of the period 1933 to 1952, and in respect of the period 1953 to 1962 at 47 per cent of all first degrees. The number of engineers with bachelor degrees in pure and applied sciences decreased from about 25 per cent of the total for the period 1933 to 1952 to about 19 per cent for the period 1953 to 1962. On the other hand the percentage of students with degrees in pure sciences increased rapidly during the past decade, namely from 24 per cent to 39 per cent of the total number in pure and applied sciences. The Commission found that it was essential that the percentage in respect of engineers be increased to 25 per cent as soon as possible.

The ratio of the number of engineers in South Africa per 100,000 of the total population is the lowest as compared with 19 other industrial countries. Per 100,000 of the white population only we are, however, the fourth highest in the world. We then have 10 engineers for every 100,000 members of our white population, while in Canada there are 12 and in the U.S.A. 18, and Russia has the highest figure with 32 graduate engineers for every 100,000 of the population. What is important in our case is this. If the Whites and the urban non-Whites are taken into account, that is to say, in the urban complexes, where our industrial development is, then only Greece, Portugal, Spain and Australia have fewer graduates in these 19 industrial countries which have been considered by way of comparison. It is therefore essential, also according to the finding of this Commission, for the more intensive industrialization of our country and especially with a view to the development of the rural border area industries that serious attention be given to the question of engineers in South Africa.

I also want to put it to the Minister that the Government should consider establishing an engineering faculty at an Afrikaans university. There are already three engineering faculties at three English-language universities and two at two Afrikaans-language universities, but the statistics compiled indicate that the new faculty should preferably be at an Afrikaans university. When these statistics were compiled about six years ago, it appeared that of all the first-year students at the Afrikaans universities 4 per cent were studying engineering, while at the English universities 14 per cent were studying engineering. Another interesting fact was that the larger Afrikaans universities regularly attracted more than the average number of students with first-class certificates, while with the exception of the University of Cape Town the English universities drew fewer than the average number of students with first-class certificates. They nevertheless have this high percentage of first-year students interested in engineering. This therefore indicates that in our country, especially among the Afrikaans-speaking section of the population, there is unutilized university potential which must be harnessed in the scientific field. There are more of them in the Afrikaans sector than in the English sector.

The Commission also found the following. Measured in terms of the gross income per capita in the various Western countries and in an attempt to increase production by 2 per cent in order to double it in 30 years, graduated engineers will have to be increased by 1977 from the present 10 per 100,000 of the white population to 27 per 100,000, that is to say, by 50 to 75 per cent. This increase must inevitably be supplied mainly by the Afrikaans universities. The Commission also found that during the period 1958 to 1962. 1,234 students qualified in engineering at English universities, as opposed to 383 at Afrikaans universities. If we look at the particulars which we receive from the universities, it appears that too large a percentage of Afrikaans-speaking students at Afrikaans-language universities qualified in other fields instead of entering the engineering field, in which there is such a tremendous shortage in our country. Therefore I want to ask the Minister if it is not possible for the Government to decide as soon as possible, or to appoint a commission to advise the Government, at which university this engineering faculty is to be established. I also want to plead for the Government and this commission to decide that this faculty be established at an Afrikaans-language university.

*The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

Mr. Chairman, I am not standing up to reply to the debate, because it is too late in the day for that, but since the hon. member for Potchefstroom has raised the question of the training of engineers, I should like to make a statement in this connection which may save the Committee further discussion of this subject. It is a statement in connection with the appointment of a committee of inquiry into additional facilities for the training of engineers.

As a result of the report of the commission of inquiry into the training methods for university degrees in engineering, namely the Straszacker Commission, and the comments of the Scientific Advisory Council on that—particularly with reference to further training facilities for engineers—as well as a few memoranda and divergent opinions which were brought to my notice, the Cabinet considered the matter and it was decided to instruct a committee to investigate the matter under the following terms of reference, namely, firstly, to institute a thorough investigation into all aspects of the need for additional training facilities in engineering, and secondly, if additional training facilities are needed, to determine what the nature of such facilities should be and where and when they should be created. The following factors, inter alia, are to be considered: (a) the effect of such new facilities on the occupation, staff and extent and quality of research of existing faculties; (b) economic as well as student potential from the geographic vicinities and potential centres for efficient expansion of the training concerned; (c) the economic and educational implications of new facilities in respect of basic training for engineers in the pure sciences.

The following persons have been appointed to the Committee and have kindly agreed to carry out this task and to report to me as soon as possible. The chairman is Mr. A. W. S. Schuman (Federale Mynbou), and the other members are Professor D. W. de Vos (University of Pretoria), Mr. R. Stander (Consulting Engineer of Cape Town), Mr. N. Smit (AMCOR), Dr. S. J. P. K. van Heerden (Deputy Scientific Adviser), Dr. Bux Fouche, (Sanlam), Mr. J. C. Steenkamp (Union Steel Corporation), and Dr. N. Stutterheim (C.S.I.R.).

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

Mr. Chairman, I wish to raise a matter here this afternoon with the hon. the Minister which has not been discussed at any great length so far in this debate, and that is the question of the planning of group areas. I raise the question particularly to point out to the Minister the difficulties that occur in the planning of group areas in this country. One is often left with the impression that group areas are planned in South Africa with little regard to the human feelings and human emotions involved.

If the Minister feels I am being unfriendly in this regard then it is because the planning is often unfriendly to the people affected by it. The Minister knows that during the war in Europe many people were moved out of air attack areas and it was realized that the moves would have certain effects on the lives of the people concerned. A committee investigated the problems attached to the actual removals, for instance, from the London area to the country areas. I want to suggest that little consideration is being given in South Africa today when removals take place or group areas are proclaimed. This is highlighted by the fact that in Durban, where many group areas have been proclaimed for Indians, little consideration seems to have been given to the fact that the Indian lives a different kind of life to that of the European. He requires a larger house because the average Indian family consists of 7.7 people whilst the average European family consists of 4.5 people. This point seems to be so often overlooked, and as a result we find that an area like Chatsworth in Durban is almost over-crowded before pen is put to paper declaring that to be an Indian group area. I feel that very little consideration is given to the race groups involved and to their different modes of living when this sort of planning is undertaken.

I notice from the report that the Minister says the Coloured group area in Barberton is being accepted, but it will under no circumstances be extended. How does the Minister propose not to extend the group area at Barberton, as well as in places like Pietersburg, Zeerust, and so on? He says only small Coloured communities live there and the areas must be discontinued and discouraged. Does the Minister think those people will not measure in numbers? How is he going to stop the population growth of the Indians and the Coloureds in these areas set aside for them? I say that none of the present group areas will in time be large enough to contain all the people whom he proposes to settle there.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order 23.

House Resumed:

Progress reported.

The House adjourned at 7 p.m.

TUESDAY, 11th JUNE, 1968 Prayers—2.20 p.m. SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE LIMITATION AND DISCLOSURE OF FINANCE CHARGES BILL

Report presented.

PERSONAL EXPLANATION *Dr. P. G. J. KOORNHOF:

Mr. Speaker, with your leave and on a point of personal explanation I should like to bring the following to the notice of the House. I refer to a speech which I made on the Bantu Administration and Development Vote on Thursday, 6th June, 1968, when on two occasions I used figurative language in saying that the hon. member for Houghton should be given a hiding on account of what she had said. It has come to my notice that this expression has been misunderstood by certain persons as meaning that the hon. member should have been given a physical hiding. I regret that such a completely erroneous deduction has been made. I want to declare unequivocally that all I meant was that she should be given a hiding in a figurative sense, that is to say, that she should be chastised verbally, which I in fact did in no uncertain terms in my speech; and that it would be quite unthinkable for me to have used those words in anything but that figurative sense. I hope that the figurative language which I used will be understood and taken in that sense.

PERSONAL EXPLANATION Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Mr. Speaker, with your permission, I would like to withdraw certain words which I used during the discussion of the Bantu Administration Vote last Thursday and which infringed the Rules of this House. The words concerned are “these wretched laws” and “these terrible laws”. I withdraw the words “wretched” and “terrible” unreservedly.

QUESTIONS

For oral reply:

Registered Trade Unions *1. Mr. S. J. M. STEYN

asked the Minister of Labour:

(a) What is the actual or estimated number of members of registered trade unions and (b) how many of them are (i) White, (ii) Coloured and (iii) Asian.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR:
  1. (a) 533,405.
  2. (b)
    1. (i) 384,528.
    2. (ii) and (iii) 148,877—Separate statistics in respect of the number of Coloured and Asiatic members are not available. In terms of the relative provisions of the Industrial Conciliation Act Asiatics are included in the figures relating to Coloureds.
Defence: Militarization of Civilian Posts *2. Mr. J. W. E. WILEY

asked the Minister of Defence:

  1. (1) Whether it is proposed to militarize certain civilian posts in his Department; if so, (a) when and (b) for what reason;
  2. (2) whether any positions in the Simonstown dockyard will be affected by this proposal; if so, what positions.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE:

(1) and (2). In pursuance of recommendations of the Verster Committee a civil service inspection was ordered with the view to integration of the former Defence Secretariat with the organization of the S.A. Defence Force. For the sake of efficiency and better career prospects the integration and militarization of certain posts in the military organization are at present under consideration by the Civil Service Commission. Employees of the Simonstown dockyard are not affected by this. A final decision is expected in due course.

Deposits in Respect of Newspapers for Coloureds *3. Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER

asked the Minister of Justice:

  1. (1) Whether the proposed newspaper for Coloureds in Durban, to be called The Concord, has been required to pay a deposit; if so, (a) what amount and (b) for what reason;
  2. (2) whether deposits were required to be paid by the newspapers for Coloureds in Cape Town called Herald and Telegraph; if so, what amount in each case; if not, why not.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE:
  1. (1) Yes.
    1. (a) R 10,000.
    2. (b) Because on the facts at my disposal I was unable to issue the certificate referred to in section 6bis (1) of the Suppression of Communism Act, 1950 (Act 44 of 1950).
  2. (2) The Department of Justice has no record of Herald and Tribune. There exists a publication \Cape Herald in Cape Town in respect of which no deposit was required, because I was on the facts at my disposal able to issue the certificate referred to in (1) (b) above.
Mr. W. V. RAW:

Arising out of the hon. the Minister's reply, the Minister referred to the Tribune, whereas the question referred to the Telegraph. Will the hon. the Minister clarify that?

Mr. SPEAKER:

Order! The Telegraph is referred to in paragraph (2) of the question.

Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF:

But there is reference to the Tribune.

The MINISTER:

In paragraph (2) the question is asked whether deposits were required to be paid by the newspapers for Coloureds in Cape Town called Herald and Telegraph.

Sir DE VILLIERS GRAAFF:

But you referred to the Tribune.

The MINISTER:

The reply is that the Department of Justice has no record of either the Herald or the Tribune. [Interjections.]

*Mr. J. A. L. BASSON:

On a point of order, Sir, may I just point out that there is obviously a discrepancy between the two Question Papers. In the Afrikaans Question Paper it reads Herald and Tribune, while in the English Question Paper it reads Herald and Telegraph.

The MINISTER:

That is the explanation. I replied in English whilst I had the Afrikaans copy before me.

“Telegraph”: Issues Banned *4. Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER

asked the Minister of the Interior:

  1. (1) How many copies of each of the issues of the newspaper Telegraph banned during 1968 were (a) printed, (b) sold and (c) removed from newsagents;
  2. (2) whether any action is contemplated to prevent this newspaper from continuing to publish and distribute objectionable material; if so, what action.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE (for the Minister of the Interior):
  1. (1) (a), (b) and (c) These are matters solely within the knowledge of the publishers and it is, therefore, not possible to furnish the information.
  2. (2) Objectionable publications, brought to the attention of the Board, will be dealt with in accordance with the provisions of the Publications and Entertainments Act, 1963.
Mr. W. V. RAW:

Arising out of the Minister's reply, could he tell us whether this newspaper paid a deposit in regard to its publication?

The MINISTER OF JUSTICE:

The hon. member must please table his question.

Issue of Arms and Equipment to National Servicemen *5. Mr. J. W. E. WILEY

asked the Minister of Defence:

Whether Citizen Force trainees in the Army, the Navy, the Air Force and the Commandos respectively, are in possession of their issue of (a) arms and (b) uniforms and equipment for the whole of their ten year period of training; if not, (i) why not and (ii) for what period in each case.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE:
  1. (a) (i) and (ii) Only national servicemen of the Commandos are allowed to retain their arms for the full period of their national service i.e. 16 years. National servicemen of the Army and Air Force retain their arms only for periods of continuous national service, while national servicemen of the Navy are issued with arms only when they require them for training purposes or for the execution of their duties under the national service scheme e.g. guard duties, etc.
    The decision to issue national servicemen of the Army, Air Force and Navy with arms for the duration of their periods of continuous national service only, is based mainly on the risks involved in the storage of very expensive semi-automatic weapons in private residences. Adequate arrangements have been made for the re-issue of their arms to them with minimum delay should the need arise. National servicemen of the Commandos are issued with a less expensive weapon and there is consequently no objection to their retention of these weapons.
  2. (b) National servicemen of the Army and the Commandos retain their uniforms and equipment throughout their terms of national service. National servicemen of the Air Force and the Navy retain only their uniforms for the full terms of their national service. In the Air Force and Navy the majority of national servicemen complete their continuous national service in one period and it is, therefore, not necessary for them to retain their equipment after completion thereof. Like their weapons, it can be re-issued with little delay as and when necessary.
Leasing of State Land on Umfolozi Flats *6. Mr. W. T. WEBBER

asked the Minister of Agriculture:

Whether any State land on the Umfolozi Flats in Zululand has been leased since 1st July, 1967, to any person other than the Umfolozi Co-operative Sugar Company Limited; if so, (a) to whom, (b) what acreage, (c) what is the period of the lease, (d) for what purpose is it leased, (e) what rent or other charge is payable in respect of the lease and (f) when and in what manner was it advertised to the public that such land was available for leasing.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF AGRICULTURE:

State land has been offered for leasing on the recommendation of the Land Tenure Board.

  1. (a) Mr. J. W. Bell.
  2. (b) Approximately 1,200 acres.
  3. (c) 25 years from 1st November, 1967.
  4. (d) Sugar cane culture.
  5. (e) R 12.00 per year for the first 28 months; 15c per delivered ton sugar cane for the ensuing 2 years and thereafter 50c per delivered ton sugar cane.
  6. (f) The proposed lease was not advertised.
Mr. W. T. WEBBER:

Mr. Speaker, arising out of the hon. the Deputy Minister's reply, is the rent of R12 for the total area of the land leased or is it per morgen?

The DEPUTY MINISTER:

It is for the total area.

Mr. M. L. MITCHELL:

Arising from the hon. the Deputy Minister's reply, Mr. Speaker, is this the same Mr. Bell about whose …

Mr. SPEAKER:

Order!

Mr. M. L. MITCHELL:

Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, what is wrong with my question so far? I wanted to ask whether this is the same Mr. Bell about whom much litigation took place…

Mr. SPEAKER:

Order! That has nothing to do with the reply.

Mr. M. L. MITCHELL:

Mr. Speaker…

Mr. SPEAKER:

Order!

Mr. M. L. MITCHELL:

On a point of order…

Mr. SPEAKER:

Order, Order!

Mr. D. E. MITCHELL:

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Deputy Minister gave an answer and said this land was leased to a Mr. Bell. Is it not in order to ask whether it is the same Mr. Bell who was involved in a certain lawsuit?

Mr. SPEAKER:

Order! If the hon. member wants to have that information he can ask another question. It has nothing to do with this question.

*7. Mr. E. G. MALAN

—Reply standing over.

Derailment of Blue Train *8. Mr. E. G. MALAN

asked the Minister of Transport:

  1. (1) Whether during the incident in connection with the Blue Train, to which he referred in his statement of 7th June, 1968, one or more wheels of any unit jumped the rails; if so,
  2. (2) whether he will make a statement in this connection.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT:
  1. (1) Yes, the trailing bogie of the locomotive derailed on taking the turnout from the main line to the loop line, but rerailed itself again.
  2. (2) No.
Manufacturing of Wattle Extract *9. Mr. D. E. MITCHELL

asked the Minister of Forestry:

  1. (a) What are the names of companies which manufactured wattle extract for use within the Republic during the past three years and (b) how much was manufactured by each.
The MINISTER OF FORESTRY:

(a)

(b) 1965

1966

1967

Tons

Tons

Tons

The Natal Tanning Extract Co., Ltd.

2,979

2,563

3,030

The Natal Chemical Syndicate, Ltd.

876

1,176

1,054

The Hodgson Extract Co., (Pty.) Ltd.

426

The Comec Mimosa Extract Co., Ltd.

482

504

509

The Union Co-operative Bark and Sugar Co., Ltd.

499

632

635

Total

5,262

4,875

5,228

Reply standing over from Friday, 7th June, 1968

Funds for Production of Films

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION replied to Question *13, by Mr. G. N. Oldfield:

Question:

Whether his Department intends to allocate funds during the current financial year for the production of films; if so, (a) how many films are to be produced, (b) what is the estimated cost of each film, (c) what is the subject matter in respect of each film, (d) by whom will the films be produced and (e) what method of distribution is to be employed.

Reply:

Yes. An amount of R26,900 already appears as an item under the general heading “(e) Miscellaneous Expenses” in the Estimates for the current financial year.

(a), (b), (c), (d) and (e): All these matters are at present under discussion between the Department and the National Film Board.

For written reply:

Deposits Paid by S.A. Newspapers 1. Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER

asked the Minister of Justice:

  1. (a) What newspapers published in South Africa have been required to pay deposits and (b) what is the amount of the deposit in each case.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE:

The New Africa

10,000

Durban Civic News

10,000

Family Life

10,000

Artists Life

10,000

MRA Information Service

10,000

Concord

10,000

Hoefslag / Hoofbeat

10,000

Foto-treffer

20,000

The Eye

20,000

Great (Tops)

20,000

Values of Deceased Estates, 1960-'67 2. Mr. J. W. E. WILEY

asked the Minister of Justice:

What was the value of deceased estates reported to the Master of the Supreme Court in each province in each year from 1960 to 1967.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE: Statistics of this nature are unfortunately not kept and in view of the volume of work involved in collecting the particulars asked for, it is not practicable to furnish the information required.

Replies standing over from Friday, 7th June, 1968

Number of Students Enrolled at White Universities

The MINISTER OF NATIONAL EDUCATION replied to Question 1 by Mr. L. F. Wood:

Question:
  1. (1) How many (a) under-graduate and (b) post-graduate students are enrolled for (i) degree and (ii) diploma courses at the universities of Cape Town, Natal, the Orange Free State, Port Elizabeth, Potchefstroom, Pretoria, Rhodes, Stellenbosch and the Witwatersrand, respectively;
  2. (2) which diploma courses require (a) the senior certificate and (b) matriculation exemption as standard of entrance to the course.
Reply:
  1. (1) (a) Under-graduate students enrolled

University

(i) Degree Courses

(ii) Diploma Courses

Cape Town

4,695

1,103

Natal

4,565

514

O.F.S.

1,772

1,111

Port Elizabeth

576

175

Potchefstroom

2,182

230

Pretoria

8,587

499

Stellenbosch

4,991

634

Witwatersrand

6,676

159

Rhodes

1,299

159

(b) Post-graduate students enrolled

University

(i) Degree Courses

(ii) Diploma Courses

Cape Town

402

140

Natal

583

178

O.F.S.

442

76

Port Elizabeth

91

21

Potchefstroom

850

50

Pretoria

1,835

255

Stellenbosch

1,033

272

Witwatersrand

668

310

Rhodes

217

94

  1. (2)
    1. (a) Diploma courses which require senior certificate as standard of entrance: Cape Town: Social Science, Music, Opera, Ballet, Drama and Speech Training, Architecture, Quantity Surveying, Education and Fine Arts.
      Port Elizabeth: Social Work, Music, Education, Constitutional Law, Lower Secondary Education.
      Pretoria: Radiotherapy, Radiography, Commerce, Public Administration, Fine Arts, Criminology, Music, Social Sciences, Nursery Education, Higher Primary Education, Higher Primary Education (P.E.), Lower Diploma Library Science.
      Witwatersrand: Nil.
      Potchefstroom: Music, Bantuistics, Library Science, Drama and Speech Training, Social Work, Biblical Studies, Commerce, Lower Education Diploma, School Music, Physical Education, Music Teaching, Domestic Science, Constitutional Law, Senior Law Diploma for Civil Servants.
      O.F.S.: Teaching method of Music, Physical Education, Drama: Method of Teaching, Library Science, Bantu Studies, Drama Ordinary, Nursery Library Science, Music (Artists), Church Music, Nursing (3 years), Nursing (4 years), Hospital and Health Services, Nursing Instruction, Social Work, Radiotherapy, Radiography, Physiotherapy, Architecture, Quantity Surveying, Law for Civil Servants, Public and Municipal Administration, Education (commerce), Higher Primary Education, Lower Primary Education.
      Natal: Nil.
      Rhodes: Fine Arts, Social Work, Peri-urban Economy, Music, Lower Secondary Education, Law for Civil Servants.
      Stellenbosch: Fine Arts, Art-teaching, Business Management and Administration, Lower Library Science, Church Organists Music Teaching, Elocutionist, Lower Secondary Education, Agriculture, Social Work, Public Administration, Stage Management, Nursing Education, Theology, Domestic Science and Needlework, Physical Education (Teaching).
    2. (b) Diploma Courses which require matriculation exemption on standard of entrance:
      Cape Town: Physiotherapy, Nursing, Library Science, Law, Accounting.
      Port Elizabeth: Diploma for Attorneys, Textile Technology, Secondary Education.
      Pretoria: Diploma for Attorneys.
      Witwatersrand: Quantity Surveying, Public Administration, Town Planning, Law, Nursing, Occupational Therapy.
      Potchefstroom: Bantuistics, Journalism, Post-graduate Library Science, Hospital Dietitian, Attorney's Admission.
      O.F.S.: Attorney's Admission, Accounting, Higher Library Science, Education (U.E.D.), Business Administration.
      Natal: Education, Town Planning, Stage Management, Speech Therapy, Social Work, Engineering, Photogrammetry.
      Rhodes: Physical Education, Lower Library Science, Education (U.E.D.), Music Teachers, Theology, Law, Personnel Welfare and Management.
      Stellenbosch: Higher Library Science, Hospital Dietitian, Psychology-instruction, Higher Primary Education, Teachers of Special Classes, Secondary Education.
Number of Foreign Bantu in S.A.

The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT replied to Question 10, by Mr. T. G. Hughes:

Question:
  1. (1) How many Bantu from (a) the former High Commission territories, (b) Mozambique, (c) Angola, (d) Rhodesia, (e) Zambia, (f) Malawi and (g) other African territories are estimated to be in the Republic;
  2. (2) (a) how many foreign Bantu entered the Republic during 1967 or the last year for which figures are available and (b) how many were repatriated during the same period.
Reply:
  1. (1) Separate figures for the countries mentioned are not available. According to the 1960 census figures, which are the latest available, the total figure is 584,005.
  2. (2) No statistics are available as border control posts are no longer controlled by my Department of Bantu Administration and Development.
Land Acquired for Bantu Since 1936

The MINISTER OF BANTU ADMINISTRATION AND DEVELOPMENT replied to Question 11, by Mr. T. G. Hughes:

Question:

What is the total area in (a) the Northern areas, (b) the Western areas, (c) Natal and (d) the Ciskei of (i) scheduled areas in terms of the Native Land Act, 1913, (ii) land acquired by Bantu between 1913 and 1936 in areas recommended for release to them, (iii) quota land vested in the South African Bantu Trust since 1936, (iv) quota land purchased by the South African Bantu Trust since 1936 and (v) quota land purchased by Bantu since 1936.

Reply:

(a) Northern Areas (Morgen)

(b) Western Areas (Morgen)

(c) Natal (Morgen)

(d) Ciskei (Morgen)

(i)

1,085,054

2,282,338

3,188,799

908,421

*(ii)

322,648

684,104

183,868

76,201

(iii)

1,439,551

297,534

88,992

7,670

(iv)

1,525,679

1,263,302

426,074

108,023

(v)

271,347

154,435

15,862

2,257

* The figures furnished under item (ii) represent all land purchases by Bantu prior to 1936—in this regard it must be noted that no released areas existed prior to 1936.

Television Transmitters used on Orange River Project

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS replied to Question 19, by Mr. E. G. Malan:

Question:

Whether television transmitters are being used in closed circuit on the Orange River project; if so, (a) where and on what part of the project, (b) for what purpose and (c) where and by whom were the transmitters (i) designed and (ii) manufactured.

Reply:
  1. (a) Yes. At the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam in connection with the cable-way system which is used for the conveyance and placing of concrete in the dam wall.
  2. (b) The purpose of the television transmitters is to enable the operator of the cable-way in his cabin at the control tower to deliver the concrete load with precision in the shuttering.
  3. (c)
    1. (i) According to the firm Philips S.A. (Pty.) Ltd., the transmitters were designed by them in the Republic of South Africa for the contractor and
    2. (ii) manufactured by them, partly in Holland and partly in the Republic of South Africa.
FIRST READING OF BILLS

The following Bills were read a First Time:

Finance Bill.

Unemployment Insurance Amendment Bill.

ARMAMENTS AMENDMENT BILL

(Senate Amendment)

Amendment in clause 4 put and agreed to.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—CENTRAL GOVERNMENT

(Resumed)

Revenue Vote 50,—Planning, R11,920,000 and Loan Vote H,—Planning, R650,000 (continued):

*The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

Mr. Chairman, I should like to reply to the questions of hon. members who have participated in this debate up to now, and for their convenience I should like to do so now.

†The first speaker on the side of the Opposition was the hon. member for Constantia. He made two statements, amongst others. The first was that half the people are employed to plan what the other half must do. He also said that the Department of Planning was created in a frenzied attempt to rectify the negligence of the past 20 years. I want to say that there is no substance whatsoever in either of these statements. The first one, referring to the Department of Planning, is devoid of all truth. The Department of Planning consists of 183 public servants. If one compares this with the 1,000 officials in the Department of Mining, 1,825 in the Department of Labour and the 3,090 officials in the Department of Transport one sees that there can be no substance whatsoever in that statement by the hon. member for Constantia. Secondly, the Department was not created in a frenzied attempt to rectify the negligence of the past 20 years. First of all there was no negligence during the past 20 years. Twenty years have passed since the National Party came into power.

Mr. W. V. RAW:

Twenty years of unsolved problems.

The MINISTER:

In 20 years the industrial development of this country has increased fivefold.

Dr. J. H. MOOLMAN:

Like every other country.

The MINISTER:

The hon. member for East London (City) is speaking …

Mr. W. V. RAW:

Is that unique?

The MINISTER:

It is not unique, but what is unique is what has happened in the 20 years of Nationalist Government in the field of agriculture. I am now speaking to the hon. member for East London (City). In 1948 agricultural production amounted to R376 million. Last year this figure was R 1,309 million.

*Dr. J. H. MOOLMAN:

This is no better than Australia. Do not discuss agriculture now.

The CHAIRMAN:

Order!

The MINISTER:

Thirdly, this so-called negligence saw to it that in my own Department, the Department of Mines, the total amount brought in was R 1,319 million last year compared with R260 million in 1948. This was after 20 years of National Party Government. This country has expanded and thrived in the last 20 years. To such an extent that it is very necessary to-day to have extra departments to cope with the tremendous development of South Africa.

The Department of Planning is not a Department which was created out of nothing. It is a Department the object of which is to coordinate. The old Natural Resources Act and what goes with it, the three advisers to the Prime Minister and their staffs, the Group Areas Act and its administration, the Bureau of Statistics and certain other functions which were all existing departments and functions within the Government, were brought together for the benefit of South Africa in the Department of Planning.

The hon. member also stated that it was because of the neglect of the past 20 years that we have the present situation. I make bold to say that there is no country in the world that I know of where the planning, before a Department of Planning existed, has been so adequate and forward-looking as the planning over the past 20 years in the Republic of South Africa. Let me give the hon. member but a few examples. The Suez Canal was closed and South Africa can cope to-day, after 20 years of Nationalist Government, after this so-called “neglect”, with every ship that comes to our harbours. Our planning and our government were such that when the pound sterling devalued, South Africa could see to it that our rand was not devalued. To-day the whole world experiences a gold crisis; we have no gold crisis. All we have, is the stuff to sell. That is after 20 years of National Party Government.

The hon. member also inquired about certain reports which are being compiled by the department. He first of all inquired about the Council for Automation, referred to in paragraph 17 of the report of the department. An advisory committee has been appointed, and will meet in August to consider proposals by the South African Council for Automation. This has therefore been done.

Secondly, the hon. member inquired about industrialized building. I may also inform the hon. member that a technical advisory committee under the National Building and Construction Board was appointed by the Minister of Community Development.

Then the hon. member inquired as to the Institute for Coastal Engineering. I may tell him that it has been decided to establish such an institute at the University of Stellenbosch, and to transfer the existing facilities from the C.S.I.R. in Pretoria to Stellenbosch. I hope in due course to make an official announcement as to the opening date and to give further details in this regard.

The hon. member also inquired about the loss of scientists, and referred to paragraph 21 of the Department’s report. I am sure that the hon. member will be interested to know that negotiations are at present being conducted with overseas embassies to make a survey of all students studying overseas. Secondly the passport division of the Department of the Interior has requested all persons who intend to study overseas to supply particulars of their studies and duration of their study. Thirdly, steps are also being considered to obtain particulars of all returning students as a measure of control.

Then the hon. member inquired about controlled areas, referred to in paragraph 13. Owing to other commitments, the chairman of the committee responsible for the revision of the plan mentioned in paragraph 13, Professor Page, who moved from Pretoria to Stellenbosch and subsequently went overseas for further study, could unfortunately not complete this project. But we hope and expect it to be completed towards the end of 1968.

*The hon. member for Gordonia pleaded for the creation of points of growth in backward areas. In this connection I should like to tell the hon. member that a departmental investigation is being conducted into the decentralization of activities to areas other than border areas, for example to the Southern Free State, the Western and North Western Cape, etc. In addition the hon. member requested the more purposeful implementation of regional plans. I want to point out to the hon. member, however, that that is not the function of regional development associations. They can in fact play a major role in the drawing up of regional plans, but the implementation of those plans is not their task in the first place. The hon. member will know that the Department operates in this field through auxiliary committees on which regional development associations have representation. As regards the co-ordination of the activities of regional development associations the hon. member asked whether a congress, I assume a national congress, could not be convened. At the present moment we are still engaged in acquainting ourselves with the activities of these associations and with the question of what the relationship of the Department to those associations should be. Therefore I do not think that the time is ripe for such a congress to be convened. We shall, however, keep this in mind for the future if it should become evident that any purpose could be served by convening such a congress. As regards the contribution of the hon. member to this debate in general, and those of other hon. members on this side of the House, I want to say that their contributions, in contrast to those of hon. members opposite, were positive and showed an understanding of problems such as we also experience in the Department.

†The hon. member for Mooi River referred to the report on the Tugela Basin. He used the term “a plan for the Tugela Basin”. I am fully aware that the work done in this respect is of an outstanding nature, so much so that it has received world recognition. But I should like to point out to the hon. member that the title of the report is not “a plan for the Tugela Basin”, but a report “towards a plan for the Tugela Basin”. Therefore, this report does not contain a plan as such; it is only a comprehensive study prepared with a view to formulating a plan for the Tugela Basin. The hon. member also wanted me to tell him how I saw the function of my Department in relation to the development of the Tugela Basin. From the interest the hon. member has shown in this matter. I am glad to see that he is very interested in the establishment of border industries in this particular area. In that respect we are, therefore, making progress as far as the United Party is concerned. I should, however, like to hear from the hon. member in more clear terms whether he is in fact advocating the development of border industrial areas in the Tugela Basin. I am sure his constituents would also like to know what his views are in this respect. He also requested that the location of large industries, “seed industries” as he called them, industries such as Iscor, should be decided on economic rather than on political grounds. I can assure the hon. member that all relevant factors are taken into consideration when deciding upon the siting of this type of industry. From the tenor of the speech of the hon. member I drew the conclusion that as far as he was concerned a third Iscor only would be forthcoming in the years ahead. But he must recognize that in a country developing such as we are developing, and after the development we have had over 20 years of National Party Government and recognizing that we shall still have such a government for many years to come, there must inevitably come a fourth and perhaps also a fifth and sixth Iscor at some time or other. In any event I as Minister of Planning cannot be satisfied with the idea that we should plan for the establishment of only one Iscor in future.

The hon. member also wanted to know whether any funds would be made available to the Association. Unfortunately we have no funds available for that Association at the moment. If, however, the hon. member can come forward with a definite request for border industrial development we could also look into that matter.

*I want to congratulate the hon. member for Klip River on his contribution. [Interjections.] I would be quite prepared to congratulate hon. members of the Opposition as well had they taken the kind of lead which the hon. member for Klip River had taken in connection with the establishment of the Tugela Basin Development Association. This is the kind of development which the Department would like to see, and consequently we welcome it. We shall continue to do our share in this regard as we have been doing in the past. The hon. member expressed his concern about the fact that the water to be taken from the Tugela to the Vaal Triangle might stimulae development on the Witwatersrand to such an extent that it might have an adverse effect on decentralization to the border areas and also to the Tugela Basin. But as far as I am concerned, the Tugela Basin itself has sufficient possibilities to attract development. But naturally the Witwatersrand will, in spite of the pessimistic outlook of the hon. member for Orange Grove and in spite of the strict policy we are following in respect of border areas development, continue to grow and will grow larger and stronger. For that water will be required there in any event.

†The hon. member for Parktown dealt with the application of the Physical Planning Act, and stated that there were delays of up to three to four months in dealing with certain applications. But I should like to tell the hon. member that there are no undue delays. All applications receive prompt attention. Where delays occur these are caused through applicants supplying insufficient information. In these cases the applications have to stand over until we receive the additional information required, which can be obtained only from the applicants themselves. But I am quite sure that these deficiencies can be ironed out in the course of time as industrialists get the feel, so to speak, of this legislation and of what it involves.

I should like to give the figures for the information of the hon. member and the Committee: Since the 19th January 642 applications have been received; 502 have been disposed of and 140 are under consideration Of the 140 seven have been in our possession for three months; we are awaiting further information; 14 have been in our possession for two months. 15 for five weeks, 14 for four weeks, 23 for three weeks and 26 for two weeks.

*The hon. member for Zululand raised the question of the area to the north of Durban but to the south of the Tugela River and made special reference to employment opportunities for Indians and Coloureds. The Regional Planning Commission of Natal, on which my Department naturally has representation, already adopts a regional approach to the entire area. Secondly, industrialists in this area who employ chiefly Indian employees have already been granted border area privileges. We shall gladly supply details in this regard to the hon. member, if he so wishes. Then the hon. member referred to the prediction that enormous development could take place in the Richard’s Bay area. I agree with the hon. member; I am optimistic. I think that area has a very bright future. But the fact of the matter is that not one of us is in a position to say at this stage exactly what course that development will take, but we are in a position to see to it that when that development does take place it will be orderly and systematic development; that is the important thing. For the information of the hon. member I may just mention that the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, the Minister of Agriculture, the Minister of Community Development, the Minister of Economic Affairs and I myself intend paying a joint visit to the Richard’s Bay-Empangeni area in August in order to look into the different problems which the different Departments will have to face.

Then the hon. member inquired who would take the decisions on so-called regional matters and who would control the development. As yet the question of how over-all control over the aspect of urban development in that area is to be exercised has not been settled. In the meantime over-all planning is being carried out under the guidance of my Department which also undertakes the co-ordination of development by the various Government Departments. I may just add that we are considering a possible method of control over development in that area, one I have unfortunately not been able to submit to the Cabinet as yet, but the hon. member and others will be informed of the precise decision in due course.

Then the hon. member for Witbank asked for better co-ordination between the Department of Planning and the Department of Community Development. I am pleased that the hon. member raised this matter, because to be continually geared for bringing about better co-ordinaltion and not acting in isolation, is in the line of duty of the Department of Planning. As a matter of fact, this is what we do. As the hon. member knows all interested Departments are consulted during the investigation stage of regional matters, etc., but I agree with the hon. member that co-ordination and co-operation between the Department of Planning and the Department of Community Development are of vital importance, and my Department and I myself will in future be even more intent on achieving this. In connection with the appointment of the water plan commission the hon. member inquired whether attention would also be given to the pollution of streams. I am aware that he has problems in his area and surrounding districts. I may say that this matter is enjoying the specific attention of the Committee which is undertaking the regional study of the Witbank-Middelburg area. As the hon. member knows, there is a subsidiary committee which in this regard is also looking into other aspects during this investigation, i.e. the question which the hon. member raised in connection with the subdivision of land into units which are too small. This has been included specifically in the terms of reference of the committee. But I want to remind the hon. member that the entire matter of the fragmentation of our land will be investigated, as the Minister of Agriculture announced, by an inter-departmental committee which will go into the entire matter in all its aspects.

Mr. H. M. LEWIS:

May we also hear this private conversation?

*The MINISTER:

I was addressing the hon. member for Witbank personally, although my remarks naturally were intended for the information of the entire Committee. It was very pleasant for me to listen to the hon. member for Witbank in contradistinction to other hon. members, because the hon. member for Witbank placed the interests of the country above his own interests or even above the interests of his own area when he was speaking.

†The hon. member for Umlazi—and I do not mind if other hon. members listen in while I address him—wanted detailed information about the proposed Rietvlei Harbour. It is correct that initially this harbour is planned to be a fishing harbour. My Department has only a function in the co-ordination of the initial planning and thereafter, since this is a fishing harbour, the detailed planning is the sole responsibility of the Department of Industries. But I should like to make it quite clear to the hon. member, in the light of the other questions he put to me, that it is not the function nor the responsibility of my Department to undertake the detailed planning of any harbour and that this is a responsibility which rests with the South African Railways and the Department of Industries, depending, of course, on the intended purpose of the harbour.

The hon. member also raised certain points regarding the lack of information with respect to the planning of the Richard’s Bay area. All I have to say at the moment is that while the over-all planning is in the stage of preparation in which it is now, it will serve no good purpose to make such plans, which are still in a fluid state, available to the public. I think it will only be misleading and it will certainly not be to the benefit of either the inhabitants of that particular area or of the public in general.

Mr. H. M. LEWIS:

Cannot we have interim reports? Cannot the local authorities be brought into it?

The MINISTER:

The local authority has been brought into these matters to the extent that it is necessary to do so, but it would be absolutely wrong to inform the public and the local authority of plans which are still in a very fluid state. There is nothing to hide about the development in the Richard’s Bay area or any other area for that matter but it cannot be finalized within a year or two.

*Then the hon. member for Malmesbury referred to Ouskip and the possible erection of the nuclear power station there. I just want to tell the hon. member that at present the allocation and development of beach resorts such as he has in mind are, in consequence of a statement I made earlier this year, the exclusive responsibility of the provincial administration, provided of course that it is in accordance with Government policy, something on which the emphasis always has to fall. As far as Ouskip is concerned, the hon. member will also know that the discussions which have already taken place between the provincial administration, the Atomic Energy Board, the divisional council and others were initiated by the Department of Planning. I personally and the Department would be very happy if beach facilities, such as those envisaged by the hon. member, could be created for our Coloureds in view of the development there has already been in respect of roads. As Minister of Mines I shall most definitely have further discussions with the Chairman of the Atomic Energy Board so as to ascertain to what extent it will be practical to move this power station, as the hon. member suggested, possibly two miles inland so as to enable these facilities for our Coloured people to be established there.

†Now I come to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District). Sir, I feel it my duty to tell the hon. member—and I do not say this in a bad way at all, but I say it seriously— that he is well on the way to becoming known as the most disliked member of this House. In years gone by we have had members like him and I can only tell him that those members are already completely forgotten. For that matter, it was not in the interest of their constituencies either.

Mr. M. L. MITCHELL:

Now why did you say all that?

The MINISTER:

Because of the conduct of that hon. member, not only in this debate but day after day in this House, and I think it is about time that somebody told that hon. member what I have just told him. [Interjections.] The hon. member can defend himself; I do not mind. Now the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) asked me whether it is the intention to remove all Coloureds from Southern Natal and to resettle them at Pinetown.

Mr. M. L. MITCHELL:

Have you heard what they say about the most disliked Minister?

The CHAIRMAN:

Order!

The MINISTER:

Are you interested in my reply to the hon. member? [ Interjections.]

The CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member for Umlazi does not have the floor now; the Minister has it.

An HON. MEMBER:

That is typical of the ministerial attitude, [Interjections.]

The CHAIRMAN:

Order!

*The MINISTER:

The hon. member for Fauresmith spoke very affectionately about the storm and stress, the fox-hunts and dust-storms in the Free State in a characteristically Free State manner. I listened with great pleasure to the plea he delivered for his area. The hon. member is also aware that that area has its problems. The hon. member referred to this area as a possible white heartland of the Republic, but now the hon. member will agree with me that if we were to stimulate industries there injudiciously and on a large scale, that area may not remain the white heartland of the Republic, and consequently great care has to be exercised. I think that we should seriously view the development of those regions also in this light.

†The hon. member for Port Natal criticized the policy not to extend the Coloured group areas at Barberton, Pietersburg and at other places which have already been proclaimed in the Transvaal. Now I may say to the hon. member that the policy is that all Coloureds in the Transvaal except those in the Pretoria-Vereeniging Witwatersrand complex should eventually be settled at the following five centres, namely Klerksdorp, Potchefstroom, Witbank, Middelburg and Standerton. All these five centres are growth points with a viable economy, and the intention is to provide all amenities such as schools and recreational facilities, etc., for the Coloured people there. At these centres the Coloured people will be able to develop into self-contained communities, with their own local government bodies. Group areas already proclaimed at other places in the Transvaal will not be deproclaimed at this stage, but the Coloureds in these areas will be encouraged in their own interest to move to one of the five centres I mentioned. I think hon. members will appreciate that at centres with only a small number of Coloureds it will not be possible to establish their own local authorities and what goes with them, and the development into communities managing their own affairs which is the aim of the Government will not be possible.

I now want to come back to calmer waters in order to reply to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District).

Mr. W. V. RAW:

Will they be encouraged to move or obliged to move?

The MINISTER:

I said “encouraged”. In fact, in this respect I should also like to make an appeal to industrialists to employ these Coloureds and to encourage them to move to the centres where they need their employment in these five areas.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) asked about the removal of Coloureds from Southern Natal and their resettlement in Pinetown. The reply is that an interdepartmental committee is at present engaged upon inquiring into the whole question of the Coloured problem in Natal with a view to obtaining all relevant facts in order that the Department and also the Government, may be able to determine a policy in regard to the Coloureds in Natal. In all 24 Coloured areas in 10 centres of Natal have been proclaimed. So far no Coloured group area has been proclaimed in Southern Natal.

I think I have now disposed for the present of most of the points raised. If necessary, I shall reply to further points at a later stage.

*Mr. J. S. PANSEGROUW:

We are grateful for the speeches made by the hon. member for Gordonia and the hon. member for Faure-smith. Nobody is to blame for this, but we have the position, and we do not want to dwell on this, that in South Africa we have development to the east of the Drakensberg mountain range. We have tremendous development to the north of the Vaal River. We have development in the Cape Peninsula as well as in the coastal regions, but this entire midland area, which has rightly been referred to as the heartland of the Republic, suffers from this retarded development. We do not blame anybody for this. This is the natural development of circumstances as they were. Now we have this position of over-development in certain regions and retarded development in other regions. This afternoon I want to deliver a plea to the hon. the Minister of Planning and his Department to clutch at every straw which may possibly give rise to the development of that area. We are grateful for the development in the Orange River Basin. We are more than grateful for the development in the Orange River Valley because we believe that it will attract further development to that region which will allow it to attract its rightful share of the prosperity of South Africa.

Before going any further, I want to make it quite clear that I am not speaking in a spirit of wanting to cross swords with anybody. Ibis is the first point I want to make. In the second place I want it to be clearly understood that just as I do not wish to argue or to cross swords with anybody, I do not want to make any demands either except that I want to plead with the Minister for this matter to receive the attention of his Department on this level, namely that his Department should merely investigate the matter which I am now going to raise and that the findings of such an investigation should be implemented in the interests of South Africa as a whole. No one is to blame for the position which we have in South Africa where the legislative authority of the country is geographically separated from the executive authority, while the seat of the judiciary is situated at a completely different place. No one is to blame for this. We are grateful to and we pay tribute to those who deemed it necessary to follow this method in order to bring about unity in South Africa, first of all in the Union of South Africa and then in this beautiful young Republic of South Africa which we all love.

*Maj. J. E. LINDSAY:

Now you are skating on thin ice.

*Mr. J. S. PANSEGROUW:

I am skating on thin ice, but I have said that I do not want to argue with anybody, not even the hon member. It is conceded that in the past, as even to-day, it has been possible to govern a country as we are governing it to-day. When we consider the development which has taken place in South Africa, particularly over the past 20 years, we cannot deny that there has been good government. We do not want to establish facts; we merely want to plead for attention to be given to this matter so that it will be possible to have a final decision at some suitable time, and consequently we are raising this subject. South Africa has undergone fundamental changes during the past 50 or 60 years and to-day we are the industrial giant in Africa, and in my opinion it is highly doubtful whether it will always be possible for us to govern South Africa while we allow ourselves to be served by two capitals, actually three, if we think of Bloemfontein as the judicial capital. Seeing that knowledge is strength, I want to make the plea that this Department should assist us in acquiring the necessary knowledge in this regard by means of investigation so as to see whether the time has not perhaps arrived when we should have one capital only.

I want to conclude by saying that I am not pleading for either Pretoria, or Cape Town, but that I am pleading for a new capital. I am not pleading for Bloemfontein either. If possible. there should be an entirely new capital on the large man-made lake of the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam situated between the Orange and Caledon Rivers.

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who just sat down said the had no wish to fight with anybody, and I should like to join him in that, but I do want to say to him that while I am a member of this House I have every intention of fighting with anybody and everybody for the things in which I believe, if need be. I wish to say to the hon. the Minister that when I spoke of the Coloureds in the Transvaal before the debate was adjourned last night, I did so merely as an example to illustrate to the Minister that the whole planning behind the group areas is wrong if he believes he can limit the size of a group area. The size of such an area can never be limited because the population of the country continues to grow.

When the House adjourned last night I was appealing to the Minister to give us the assurance that a proper study was made before group area proclamations were issued. I did so because I believe that too often these proclamations are made with too little regard for the different living standards and ways of life as well as the businesses of the various race groups affected. I believe, if we want to avoid the injustices and hardships caused by the wholesale moving of various population groups in South Africa then it is essential that we give detailed study to the various problems affecting the particular groups. I believe, too often we have tended1 to ignore this fundamental fact; too often have we set ourselves against nature by moving a particular race group to an area completely unsuitable for that group, an area perhaps very far from the nearest employment area. I think here in particular of the removals which have taken place among the Bantu races just recently in Northern Natal.

*Mr. J. P. C. LE ROUX:

You know nothing about that.

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

As long as I am in this House I will no doubt have the hon. member on my left making inane remarks. These groups in Northern Natal were moved from existing areas to new areas and all instances which I have investigated show that they have been moved some distance from their nearest place of employment. This has involved these groups in further expense in getting to their nearest work point. Moreover a great many of them are now unemployed and virtually unemployable because of the siting of the new areas to which they have been sent. The recent moves in Northern Natal indicate that there was very little prior planning in this regard, so much so that the people moved to Limehill for instance could not obtain work in the near vicinity unless they were prepared to spend a large share of their earnings on bus fares going to and from their places of employment.

I am sure the Minister will agree with me that the group areas proclamations over the years have caused not only the hardships I have mentioned but also a great deal of frustration as well as fear for the future. In 1963 a group of Bantu in Natal was moved to a new area, to Khumalosville and this year they have heard very strong rumours that they are going to be moved again to another area.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

May I point out to the hon. member that the removal of Bantu has really nothing to do with either this department or with the Group Areas Act?

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

I am just using these instances to illustrate the difficulties and frustrations which can be caused. As I said, these people were moved in 1963, and now five years later they are told the first move was wrong in the first place and they will have to move again. The Minister of course knows that in the days of the old Z.A.R. the President allocated a certain area of Johannesburg to the Indians in the 1880’s, and now in the 1960’s their descendants are told to go and live somewhere else. Isipingo in Natal was a white area for 60 years. The title deeds of properties there stipulated that only Whites could live there, and now they are suddenly moved elsewhere too. I say every race group is affected by group areas legislation. One might well ask what is the value of our title deeds if such a state of uncertainty exists in regard to the planning of group areas. I sincerely believe that the whole question of group areas must be more closely investigated than it has been in the past. Durban is surrounded with group areas for different race groups, for Indians, Coloureds, Bantu, and so on. and in the near future this state of affairs will handicap the industrial development of that city. How will industries expand there?

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

Is the concept of group areas acceptable to you?

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

I have no objection to residential separation. But I do not like the term “group areas”. I believe that the residential separation of people can be achieved humanely and with less heartlessness than has been the case up to now. I believe the very term “group areas” fills the people involved in these removals with discontent from the very beginning, and leads to a condemnation of the policy. I believe that it is the implementation of group areas that has brought about the difficulties we experienced. I have no objection to separate areas for different race groups. The hon. the Minister must understand that quite clearly. If the hon. the Minister wishes to twist anything I have said, he may well do so.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member may not say that.

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw the word “twist”, because I do not mean it in an unpleasant sense. I am sure that the hon. the Minister understands the sense in which I meant it. I want to say this to the hon. the Minister. In fact, I am pleading with the hon. the Minister and I make no excuse for pleading with him, because I am pleading for people who have been hurt by the implementation of the Group Areas Act. I do not oppose separate areas for separate race groups. I have never opposed it. I oppose the word group areas, because the Group Areas Act has connotations which have defeated the very principle of separating the various race groups into different residential areas. If I can conclude my speech without the chattering from the monkey on my left …

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member must withdraw those words.

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

Mr. Chairman, I withdraw that remark.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Order! What remark has the hon. member withdrawn?

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

I specifically withdraw the words “the monkey on my left”.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Did the hon. member not say something about a “chattering” monkey?

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

Mr. Chairman, if I did say that, I withdraw it as well.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

The hon. member should really apologize to that hon. member.

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

I apologize to the hon. member for calling him a chattering monkey. I do, however, hope that this will make him cease chattering when I am speaking in future.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

The hon. member must return to the Vote and stop talking about chatterers.

Mr. L. E. D. WINCHESTER:

I want to conclude my remarks by repeating my appeal to the Minister that he must ensure that when group areas are proclaimed in South Africa a full study is made into the problems and hardships caused to all race groups when these areas are proclaimed.

*Mr. G. P. C. BEZUIDENHOUT:

Mr. Chairman, this Vote, i.e. Planning, is one of the most important Votes which we discuss in this House. But when we consider some of the remarks flung across the floor of this House, such as those made by the hon. member for Orange Grove, who said that this Minister was a “king of chaos”, and by the hon. member for Umlazi, who said that he was a “tzar of chaos” and that the industrial sector was coming to a standstill, then I do not think that either of these members contributed anything to debating the problems in South Africa. This Minister controls what is probably one of the most important departments in the republic, namely the Department of Planning. The Department of Planning can be regarded as a blanket department, which has to do a great deal of work for all the other departments and which has to take the lead in effecting purposeful planning in this country. If one bears that in mind, one feels unhappy when one hears such remarks in this House.

Nor do I want to cross swords with my good friend the hon. member for Smithfield, who said that he would like an investigation to be instituted into the possibility of a new capital. However, we must be very cautious. There are a few things in life which one may not throw overboard overnight. These few things are one’s bank manager or bank, one’s family doctor and one’s church. We should have second thoughts before we summarily discard our mother city, which has served this country of ours so faithfully over the years. Should there be problems in this regard, they should be given thorough attention. We must not think that if we were to get rid of our mother city as our legislative capital, we would then create a Utopia. The hon. member merely requested an investigation, and for that reason I shall not cross swords with him as far as this matter is concerned. Whereas our Minister of Planning …

*An HON. MEMBER:

Where is he?

*Mr. G. P. C. BEZUIDENHOUT:

The hon. the Minister is sitting over there. Whereas the Minister of Planning is at present administering some of the most important legislation in this country, i.e. the Physical Planning Act, I want to plead with him this afternoon not to respond to the hon. member for Parktown’s plea, in which he asked the hon. the Minister why he did not lay down norms so that the industrialists might know exactly where they stand. My plea to the Minister this afternoon is that he must continue along the course he has followed up to now. I want him to treat each application for the expansion of factories and for Bantu labour in these areas on its merits. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that there are many small factories which are located in the Witwatersrand complex, the Port Elizabeth complex and the Cape Town complex. It would be fatal to lay down any norms for permitting a certain percentage. Moreover, it would definitely impede our industrial development. Every factory has its own character and its own problems which are peculiar to itself. That is why I want to plead this afternoon that no norms should be laid down in this regard. The hon. the Minister must continue along the course he has adopted. We want him to investigate each application personally to see whether or not he can grant that application. Over the past days we have heard a great deal about areas that are overcrowded and about backward areas. We just want to tell the hon. the Minister that we do not envy him the task he has to shoulder. I just want to ask that provision should be made for those overcrowded areas, and that those people should not merely be told that they can develop up to a certain point and no further.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister to institute a very thorough investigation into one specific matter. We find to-day that the goldmines on the Witwatersrand are closing down. Those hon. members who know the Witwatersrand, will know that it is a tragic experience to witness a gold-mine closing down. In that mining area there are large buildings and all sorts of facilities. When such a mine closes down overnight, demolition work is carried out on those premises and large tracts of land lie fallow there. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to investigate this matter thoroughly in order to see whether it is not possible for us to develop these areas in such a way that we can make use of the existing facilities there, facilities such as water, electricity, housing and important road and rail links. We showed the hon. the Minister those areas. He saw what it looked like there when a mine closed down. Dilapidated walls are demolished, and generally this is a terrible thing to witness. We feel that those areas cannot be left that way. Nor can we allow the capital that was spent on them to be wasted in that way. We are advocating proper planning in respect of those areas in the Witwatersrand complex.

I shall now deal with a matter I regard as being very important. In this regard I should like to refer to paragraph 59 of the report. It deals with recreation—

The task of preparing a co-ordinated national plan on recreation, which was entrusted to the department, has in the interim been transferred to the newly established Department of Sport and Recreation, since it is a function of the latter Department to develop, in collaboration with other interested Government departments, sporting and recreation facilities for each of the racial groups.

I want to make a plea to the hon. the Minister of Planning this afternoon. We in the Republic of South Africa are obsessed with sport. The administrators of sport in general are exploiting the people of the Republic of South Africa in the most atrocious way. I want to refer specifically to the test match which took place in Pretoria a few days ago. Facilities are provided and tickets are sold to people, but the seats are simply not there. If this had occurred in any other business transaction, it would have been possible to charge those people with fraud tomorrow. The width of the seat of a human being may, as they take it, have been 12 inches in the remote past. The human seat is no longer 12 inches in width today, for we are too prosperous in this country of ours. I want to plead to-day that a stop should be put to these abuses which prevail there. A stop should also be put to these temporary stands which are sometimes as high as 180 feet. These temporary stands, which sway to and fro when they are filled to capacity and a try is scored, will still be the cause of one of the greatest disasters that has ever hit the Republic of South Africa. My plea to the hon. the Minister is that an investigation should be instituted into the circumstances which prevail in this regard. The way we are being exploited by these rugby test matches at the moment, is a disgrace.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Mr. Chairman, not having been present at the rugby test match referred to by the hon. member for Brakpan. I will leave to one side the last part of his speech. I find myself in the extraordinary position this afternoon of agreeing with some of what the hon. member for Brakpan said in the earlier part of his speech. He made a special plea to the hon. the Minister of Planning to make a special study of the areas on the Witwatersrand where mines are closing down. He painted a vivid picture of the condition of a town, presumably like Brakpan, where marginal mines are no longer considered to be economical to work and are closing down. He drew a sad picture of the owners of houses and all the other environmental factors found in a mining town which suddenly finds itself devastated because of the fact that the mine has closed down. I could not agree more with the hon. member for Brakpan. It is precisely because of this closing down of mines that one desperately needs the establishment of industries in those areas so that they can take over what the mines are no longer able to do, and that is, to provide employment for the local population. There is a tremendous amount of capital investment which can be used for industry. There is also industrial ground which is absolutely first class for every purpose, because there is an available market, and labour. There is all the infra-structure that one requires in the form of transport and power ready for any industrialist who wants to step in and develop those areas into industrial areas instead of mining areas. This is exactly what one believes in for the whole Witwatersrand and not only for Brakpan. It is what, for instance, the local authority is trying to get permission for in the south of Johannesburg where the whole of the Crown Mines area is closing down or has closed down already. In the South there is an excellent piece of industrial land available close to the areas where the African townships of Soweto are situated as well as near the market of Johannesburg and the Witwatersrand. Why is there such difficulty in allowing these areas to develop into industrial areas? This is where I have to take issue with the hon. the Minister of Planning, because to me this is all so obvious. One does not need any training in economics to see that this is the obvious placement for the mining areas which have closed down, namely to switch to industrial development. I cannot understand why the local authorities should be experiencing any difficulties in this regard. Surely the hon. the Minister must consider, in the light of planning for the future, steps to absorb the population of South Africa. By this I do not mean only the white population, but the African population on the Witwatersrand in particular who are permanently there. These are people who were born in the area and there is a natural increase every year. More jobs, and not fewer, are going to be required. I must ask the hon. the Minister earnestly to consider himself more in the light of a Minister of future planning, than in the light of an additional deputy Minister of Bantu Administration. Really this is so important for the future of this country.

The hon. member for Witbank yesterday made a speech in which he said that if he had to choose between Witbank developing and the good of South Africa, he would choose the good of South Africa. Does he not understand that the two are complementary? The one is not mutually exclusive of the other. In fact, one is absolutely dependent on the other.

Mr. T. N. H. JANSON:

I said if they were conflicting.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

But they are not conflicting. Let me tell the hon. member at once that they are supplementary to each other. One cannot separate the two. [Interjections.] I wish the hon. member would be quiet; he had his ten minutes yesterday. If the country is to be able to develop its internal market and take full advantage of the economies of large-scale production, we have to see to it that every single industrial and mining area is kept going at full blast. This is the only way in which we can not only retain, but develop our position as the workshop of the rest of Africa. We have to be able to take full advantage of large-scale economies. It has been worked out by economic experts that one needs about 35 million people constituting a market before one can take advantage of large-scale economies in production. If the unit cost is lowered, the economy will become truly competitive. Why on earth do we not go full out on this aspect? We have to worry about the natural increase of the population. I am not even talking about influx from outside the existing industrial areas. Why is there the delay in the adaptation? I know the hon. the Minister is suffering from a manpower shortage. He does not have the staff, etc. I am dead against employing people in the unproductive occupation of examining applications, which should simply go through in the normal course of economic development.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

I never said that we are short of staff.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

There is obviously a shortage, if there are so many applications that still have to be dealt with. It is not a question of just lifting a telephone, as the hon. the Minister said. There is a lot of red tape involved, and industrialists complain about the situation. They complain, of course, because what is their normal right as entrepreneurs has now been handed over to the hon. the Minister, namely to decide whether to expand or not. Unless they expand, they are going to die. Does the hon. the Minister not understand this? He is not going to force decentralization by doing this. The entrepreneur will simply not go ahead with any further plans. There are natural growth points which they are prepared to help develop, but they are not prepared to be decentralized on an ideological basis. They will put their money in some other venture, which will not be an industrial venture in this country.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

You do not know what is going on in the country.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

I do know what is going on. But if I do not know what is going on, perhaps the hon. the (Minister will agree that the Federal Chamber of Industries knows what is going on. They say:

We are now being caught up in a fresh wave (of economic instability) not as a result of further economic measures, but as a result of far-reaching ideological legislation which is beginning to hit the industrialist fairly and squarely. There is no alternative word for ideology in this context, because this is precisely what it is, and we have been told in no uncertain manner by several Cabinet Ministers that this aspect of our life must and will take precedence.

They know what is going on, and they know exactly that there is going to be a stultification of economic development.

The hon. the Minister pointed with pride to the economic development that has taken place in South Africa over the last 20 years. Of course he does not mention anything about devaluation in 1949, or the development of the Free State gold areas from 1950 onwards, which is, of course, the main reason for this enormous industrial, mining and agricultural expansion, because the necessary market has thereby been provided. He tells us none of this. He takes full credit for this economic development. Let me tell him that he is going to take full blame for the stultification of economic development if he does not consider himself, as I said, as a Minister of Planning, and not a Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration. Because every decision he takes is clouded by this issue. He does not tell the industrialists what criteria he is applying. He does not have to, in terms of the Act. But from the speeches he makes all over the country we all know that the one criterion which he does apply all the time is whether expansion would mean the employment of additional African labour. The absurdity about this is that the Africans are here. What are these unemployed youths then to do? Where are they going to get employment? And if the purchasing power in the country is contracted, instead of expanding as it must do if the entire population is to get advantages out of our enormous industrial potentialities, doesn’t the hon. the Minister realize that it is not only the non-Whites who are going to be affected by this but also the Whites? Just as our markets have expanded following upon mining and industrial developments in South Africa, so will they contract, thereby affecting every single one of us: producers, consumers, industrialists, agriculturalists and others are going to feel the pinch in years to come if these strictures are going to be applied to what should be normal industrial development. So, I earnestly hope that so far as the Witwaters-rand area is concerned, the hon. the Minister will listen to the words spoken by the hon. member for Brakpan and over and over again by hon. members on this side of the House when pleading for industrial development to replace the dying mining industry. All of us realize that in a modern industrial economy there has to be a measure of State planning; there has to be a “mixed” economy—neither everything free enterprise, nor everything State controlled. But there has to be a mixture of the two because the State has to supply the infrastructure, like power and transport, which private enterprise is unable to do. In addition the State has to take certain steps to ensure that industrial development is ordered and that the workers are not exploited. But thereafter it is private enterprise that makes this country tick. Now, however, we have ministerial departments interfering with normal development and under that I foresee a parlous state of affairs in this country over the ensuing 20 years.

*Mr. J. A. SCHLEBUSCH:

Effective planning is the key to any country’s progress. The National Party Government has developed this country into an industrial giant and a virile economic power. The National Party Government has brought about the development we are experiencing in South Africa today. This could only have been accomplished through advance planning, vision and a long-term policy. Contrast this with the fact that 20 years ago the United Party had led South Africa into a cul-de-sac, but then the nation fortunately got rid of them, of what was probably the most awkward government, a government without course and direction, a government which did not know the word “planning”. Out of this chaos the National Party established an economic power, and it is still growing to-day. Through proper planning we got industries which were inspired by the State—such as Iscor, Escom, Sasol, Phalaborwa, Pelindaba and the Orange River Development Scheme. All these undertakings contributed their share towards creating a climate that was favourable for the investment of capital in this country by industrialists, which, in turn, was conducive to further development. The Orange River Scheme, for instance, is most certainly proof of long-term planning which will contribute tremendously to the development of our country. Industrialists did not foresee that the Republic would be able to supply sufficient water, electric power and raw materials. This was nevertheless done, and owing to the fact that the State provided for these basic needs for water, electric power, raw materials and labour, the attention of the world was directed at the Republic, and industrialists were prepared to come here with their capital and to develop our country. That is why I say that we are grateful to the Minister and his officials for having been far-sighted enough to plan adequately for the future. We realize that we must exploit all the potentialities of our country fully.

I should like to draw the Minister’s attention to an area in our country which has lagged behind so far—the Free State and the Northern Cape. We realize that decentralization of our industries has to be encouraged and that border industries play an important role in that process. I should like to call attention to the possibiliites which Bloemfontein and its environs offer for the establishment of border industries. At Bloemfontein there is a concentration of more than 8,000 Coloureds, the largest concentration in the Free State. Heilbron merely has 600 Coloureds, and yet a border industry area has been allocated to them. Since we have more than 8,000 Coloureds in the immediate vicinity of Bloemfontein, I think that we can also lay claim to the establishment of a border area for them. I think we ought to utilize this source of labour. The Coloureds living there have been provided with proper housing, and their residential area borders on a railway line near Bloemfontein.

Then I also want to plead for a Bantu homeland at Thaba ’Nchu. This Bantu homeland is situated near Sannaspos, 19 miles from Bloemfontein on the Thaba ’Nchu railway line, with a tarred road and every other facility. The infra-structure is there already: there is housing and we have a city which offers every facility to the industrialist. In Thaba ’Nchu we have 44,000 Bantu, people whose services can be used profitably. The position of Thaba ’Nchu is comparable with that of Rosslyn near Pretoria. Under the Orange River scheme it will be possible for us to establish in an effective way the two border industries for which I have been pleading.

This links up with the question of water. It was announced recently that water resources were available in the Free State. Amongst others, the Welbedacht Dam project was announced, and consequently the possibility of a scarcity of water being experienced in Bloemfontein was ruled out completely. We are grateful for that scheme. It will bring temporary relief. But there is a third matter I want to raise with the hon. the Minister, and that is the question of the water of the Cole-don which can be led, by force of gravity, across the whole of that central area, even through the Northern Cape. Since the altitude of Jammersdrif is such that we can lead water across the whole of the central area, water can even be led to the Vaalharts Settlement which could bring major relief to the Rand complex. That water can be led along the Modder River and be utilized for the benefit of the riparian owners as well as Bloemfontein City and its environs, the Kaffir River Settlement and the Kalkfontein Scheme lower down. That will be the cheapest water we can make available in the Free State for our industries as well as urban consumption. The Fish River scheme, the Vaal Harts Scheme, the Modder River Dam and the Krugersdrift Dam—as well as the Kaffir River Dam and the Riet River Dam at Kalkfontein, can be benefited in this way. This water scheme will be of very considerable value to Bloemfontein and also an asset to the whole central area. I want to plead that this scheme should be investigated. I believe that there are few places in the country where we have the opportunity of leading water by gravitation and utilizing it effectively in respect of such a central area of the platte-land, where depopulation has already taken place to a very large extent and where it is possible to build up a huge industrial complex through the decentralization of industries. I am convinced that what I am advocating here will not only benefit Bloemfontein or the central part, but can also be utilized effectively in respect of the whole of the Northern Cape area. In addition it can bring major relief as regards the industrial development we have in the Vaal Triangle.

Mr. M. W. HOLLAND:

Sir, there are one or two matters which I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister I wish at the outset to confine myself specifically to the declaration of group areas. As the hon. the Minister knows, the system according to the Act is that an investigating committee visits the town or area in which the declaration of a group area is contemplated. In my constituency I have attended between 60 and 70 such investigations. The Minister will understand that the Coloured people, in most cases, are not in a position to engage attorneys or barristers to present their case, and I have done so on their behalf whenever I have been called upon to do so. As a result of this I have gained a little experience of the system. I remember the time when the declaration of group areas resulted in a great deal of fear, dissatisfaction, apprehension, uncertainty and frustration. I submit that the spirit of planning which to-day prevails in the Department did not prevail to the same extent in the days when I first gained some knowledge of the procedure that was followed in connection with the declaration of group areas. It was simply a question of group areas for the various racial groups and in 99 out of 100 cases the Coloureds had to relinquish everything and move out. They were uprooted and the area handed over to the Whites. These people did not understand that economic implications had a bearing on the ultimate decision. The matter was not properly explained to them, and this resulted in a great deal of frustration and apprehension. I wish to state in all modesty that my experience has been that now that it has taken the form of positive development and the people are seeing what advantages are attached to the declaration of group areas, in this sense that instead of living in slums in the towns they are getting new houses and that those people who can afford to build their own homes are moved into planned areas where they can obtain business rights, a completely different spirit prevails and there is a better understanding of the implications In this connection I wish to mention one or two towns specifically, namely. Mossel Bay and Oudtshoorn. I can tell the Minister with the utmost confidence that the change in approach has resulted in development and progress and greatly improved relations and understanding between Coloured and White. But. Sir. there is one aspect that worries me, and that is that in many cases when group areas were declared perhaps eight, nine or ten years ago. and when the investigating committee sat in that town or village, the tendency of development could not be foreseen at the time. While I appreciate that the Department cannot chop and change from one day to the next in proclaiming and deproclaiming areas because in the first instance it would cause uncertainty—people would not know where they stand from day to day—I do feel that in many cases the Department and the Minister should be prepared to reconsider certain aspects of a declared area. Let me take a case in point. Take the case of Uitenhage. I was there two weeks ago. There is an area in Uitenhage which has been declared white, and since the declaration of that group area, the area has been lying completely dormant. No white person is interested in it. It is inhabited predominantly by Coloureds and Malays. I think there is only one white family living there in a little home which in any case will have to be demolished in terms of the health regulations once they move out. The Malay Mosque is in that area The Town Council of Uitenhage addressed a letter to the Regional Representative of the Department of Planning, dated the 23rd April, in which they advocated the re-investigation of that area. I wish to make a plea to the hon. the Minister to consider that application favourably and to order a re-investigation of that area. Sir, I have never yet gone to a Minister or to a head of a Department about any matter in my vast constituency without having first-hand information about it. I go and see for myself instead of relying on hearsay. I do feel that this is a case where a re-investigation is merited.

Then I want to refer to the question of declaring buffer strips. If a buffer strip is declared between a white and Coloured area, what is the future of that wasted area? Naturally we want open spaces when we plan townships or towns, but you cannot convert a buffer strip into a Coloured or a white playground, because it lies in between the two; you cannot leave it undeclared, because then there is going to be intermingling of the races, which is against Government policy. I do feel that it is more practicable to have a street as a boundary and then to have open spaces in the respective areas, open spaces which members of the particular race groups know they are entitled to use.

There is another case which I feel merits the urgent attention of the Department and that is the town of Heidelberg in the Cape. I do feel that if the planning of Heidelberg, as far as the declaration of group areas is concerned, is soberly and objectively reconsidered, it will be different ultimately from what it is to-day. Sir, it is imperative that urgent attention be given to this matter because in the meantime while the declaration stands as it is, the local authority obtains loans and grants from the Department of Community Development for the development of Coloured housing, which is badly needed, and this makes replanning, on an objective basis, impossible or, if not impossible, then very expensive. I do feel that the two cases which I have mentioned here merit urgent reconsideration.

Then I wish to refer to two areas of which I have an intimate knowledge, namely. South End in Port Elizabeth and District Six in Cape Town. South End in Port Elizabeth, which is predominantly Coloured, was declared white. This resulted in a great deal of agitation and vigorous protests. The then Minister visited Port Elizabeth and scrapped the whole thing. It was taken away from the Group Areas Board and declared a slum area to be replanned. My contention is that if that had been done at the outset, there would have been no protests and agitation. As far as District Six is concerned the same mistake was made as in the case of South End by declaring it a white area. Sir, when the investigating committee sat in Cape Town I appeared before it. I spent three days there, not because it falls within my constituency but because certain bodies requested me to do so. I did my duty when I pleaded that it should remain or be declared a Coloured area. Sir. I have known District Six since my childhood years and I agree that you can hardly restore District Six; it has to be rebuilt from the one end to the other. Was it necessary to declare it a white area knowing that no white person will ever go and live there? Could it not have been declared a slum area to be replanned? As you move each family to housing provided in a different area, you then demolish the old building and so you go on until the whole area has been cleared and then you can replan the entire area. In any case, Boulevard East has completely changed the entire character of District Six. I do feel that a very great mistake was made in declaring District Six a white area. It resulted in a very great deal of unnecessary agitation and protest meetings. It also resulted in people being labelled as agitators, and I hope that in future these mistakes will be avoided. After all. if the Government carries on with its planning and alternative accommodation is provided through the Department of Community Development as a result of this planning, it is clear to everyone that what we are doing is to eliminate slums in our bigger towns and cities. I hope that my plea will be borne in mind. [Time expired.]

Mr. M. S. F. GROBLER:

Mr. Chairman, in his report the Secretary of Planning sets out the task of the Department very clearly; when he states that the purpose of economic planning is to promote the economic growth of the country on a co-ordinated basis it is very easy to understand. One of the tasks which is stated very briefly and matter-of-factly in the report is the drawing-up of an economic development programme for South Africa. To everybody reading the report, this is a very clear exposition. One has admiration for the work which has already been achieved by this Department in the short while it has been in existence. The fact that it covers such a wide field, as appears from the report, compels admiration. There is scarcely any aspect of planning in the physical and economic field which is not covered. I want to congratulate the Secretary and his Department, as well as the Minister, on the success they have already achieved in this regard. With a view to the tremendous economic expansion of our country, it is obviously the duty of the State to see to it that the development of points of growth through the establishment of industries is not unilaterally emphasized, i.e. that points of growth will not expand and develop unilaterally to a few gravitational centres, but that the endeavour will be to achieve a sound balance and equilibrium. It is the duty of the State, by means of judicious planning, to establish and initiate a balanced distribution of border industries in particular. In this regard I want to point out that the Western Transvaal region—the entire vast Western Transvaal region—is very sparsely endowed with industrial development.

*Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Order ! Does this not fall under the Department of Industries?

*Mr. M. S. F. GROBLER:

I am referring to it in order to prove my statement.

*Mr. CHAIRMAN:

The hon. member cannot go into details.

*Mr. M. S. F. GROBLER:

One must nevertheless state the desirability of having a balanced distribution of industries for the various regions, and I want to indicate here that the Western Transvaal is sadly lacking in industries. I even include such large towns as Potchefstroom and Klerksdorp, and when I speak of the Western Transvaal, I include my own constituency, and I am after all entitled to speak about that. Or does the planning for the establishment of border industries fall completely outside the scope of the Department of Planning’s tasks? If your ruling is to that effect, I shall resume my seat.

*Mr. CHAIRMAN:

The hon. member can refer to that in passing, but he must not make it his main topic.

Mr. M. S. F. GROBLER:

I did not make it my main topic. I pointed out that this is also one of the tasks of Planning, and I think I am quite entitled to say that, although I do not want to argue with the Chair.

*Mr. CHAIRMAN:

But that is precisely what the hon. member is doing.

*Mr. M. S. F. GROBLER:

I am of the lopinion that the potential of these regions of the western and north-western Transvaal, with their basic infrastructures, have not yet been properly evaluated. I am of the opinion that the area is very strategically situated, and that the Marico constituency in particular, which borders on Botswana for 200 miles, is situated in the middle of the main Tswana homeland complex; it is between the north-eastern Cape and north-western Transvaal Tswana areas. If we take note of the fact that most of the 123 border industries which have already been established there are in fact simply adjacent to the larger urban and industrial areas, and if one bears in mind that the need is actually for them to be situated further away, on the boundaries of the actual Bantu homelands, in order to achieve a better equilibrium, then it is necessary to emphasize this point as well. The Bantu who sell their labour in large urban border industrial areas such as Rosslyn, spend their money in Pretoria or its surrounding areas, instead of in the further-off homelands where this is extremely necessary. Now it can also be understood that in the initial stages the establishment of border industries in isolated smaller towns has lagged behind owing to the lack of competing infrastructure, as is found in a place like Rosslyn. It is also a good thing that in the initial stages a start was made with border industries near our large cities, in order to make the initial success apparent. It was easier to draw entrepreneurs to those places.

Mr. W. V. RAW:

You mean to pretend that it works?

*Mr. M. S. F. GROBLER:

It is working there, and you need not talk about it. But I have said, it is a good thing that it was started in that way. What I am now advocating is that it has perhaps become time we emphasized the establishment of border industries further away, and began to turn our attention to that matter. It will also help the Bantu working there, whom we are drawing away from the large cities in terms of our Physical Planning Act, to take what they have earned there to their homelands in order to spend it there. This will result in a turn-over of money which can stimulate homeland enterprise and economy. That is the point I want to make here, and I think it is important to take note of this. If I can do this, then it follows logically that I can indicate Swartruggens and Zeerust in the Marico constituency as places which are favourably situated for this purpose. As far as basic infrastructure is concerned, they are the obvious places for this. The main railway lines running from the Rand and Pretoria to Rhodesia and also to Kimberley and Cape Town pass through there. We have Escom power. There is an adequate supply of water, inter alia, we have dolomitic water resources.

*Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member is not dealing with the Vote at all.

*Mr. M. S. F. GROBLER:

If that is the case,. I shall resume my seat.

Mr. D. J. MARAIS:

I found myself listening with a great deal of interest to the speech made by the hon. member for Brakpan, and I must say that like the hon. member for Houghton I find that for once I agree with certain things he said in his speech. I agree with him, firstly, that when a mine comes to the end of its useful life, the fullest possible investigations should be carried out to see that not only the existing ground but also the existing services left over there are put to the best possible use. I was not aware that the seating of spectators at major sporting functions fell within the ambit of the hon. the Minister of Planning, but I want to say that if the Minister can see to it that everybody who buys an expensive seat for a sporting function can get into the grounds, and find a good seat, I am sure he will go down as a very popular Minister.

When the late Dr. Dönges, the then Minister of the Interior, introduced the Group Areas Bill in this House, he emphasized the fact that the Act would be applied with justice and fairness to all race groups in South Africa. He went even further and said that unless a measure was applied with justice and fairness it had no possibility of succeeding. Is it any wonder then that the 40,000 odd members of the Indian community of Johannesburg, who represent 50 per cent of the Indian population of the Transvaal, feel that they have not received the fair treatment that was implied in that statement? This particular section of the Indian population of South Africa—and I say “section” advisedly—have been told by the Government: You shall have only one group area; you shall live in Lenasia and nowhere else. And obviously the Indian community of Johannesburg are concerned and unhappy about the position in which they find themselves. I think the Minister will know that the Indian community have in fact sent a petition to the Prime Minister on this particular subject. This, I think, shows how strongly they feel about the matter. I believe that in the petition they point to the shortcomings of Lenasia, such as housing, business premises, the lack of a hospital, a police station and inadequate transport facilities. I want to say immediately that it is not my intention in the very limited time at my disposal to debate the merits or the suitability of Lenasia as a group area. I would rather confine myself to debating the principle involved, of treating a particular section of our population differently from other sections. For instance, the hon. the Minister might tell us when he replies to this debate why the Indian community of Johannesburg should be confined to one particular area, when we know that the 60,000 odd Coloureds in Johannesburg are given the choice of at least eight different group areas in which to live. We know, too, that the 800,000 Bantu in the Johannesburg urban area have at least six areas in which they can live, and that these areas are situated not more than between 6 and 14 miles from the centre of Johannesburg. I think the Minister also knows that even in Durban where you have 50 per cent of the Indian population concentrated, there are at least 12 different group areas where they can live. Coming a little nearer to Johannesburg, there is Pietermaritzburg, where there, is an Indian population of more or less the same size as that of Johannesburg, and here we find that they have a variety of group areas all situated very close to their place of work. I mention this because in the case of the Indian community of Johannesburg we know that Lenasia is situated at least 20 miles from their places of employment. I want to tell the Minister that I have not raised this matter lightly. I have been asked by many individual Indians, and by Indian organizations, to raise the matter, and I want to say too that when I was approached there was no sense of antagonism shown by the Indians towards the Government. They honestly and sincerely feel that they have not been well treated in comparison with the other race groups in the country. They feel that the Government is acting wrongly in having closed the door, because we know that the Government has in effect said that it is not prepared to reconsider this issue.

Now, one could understand the Government’s attitude if, for instance, the local authority most concerned in the matter, the Johannesburg City Council, were in agreement with the Government that there should be only one group area for the Indians, but we know that over a period of 15 years the Johannesburg City Council has been pleading with the Government to allow another group area within the municipal boundaries of Johannesburg. If it were a question of the land not being available, one could also understand the Government’s attitude in this matter, but we know that the Johannesburg City Council have made a survey and that they in fact suggested five areas of 2,000 acres in extent which could eventually accommodate as many as 11,000 Indian families. I said earlier that I am not raising this matter lightly. I just want to quote very briefly from one or two letters I have received, to show that these people have asked me to raise the matter in the correct spirit. The one letter is written to me by an organization and they say—

Sir, will you please represent us in Parliament as all other representations have failed? We will develop and finance the area ourselves without the aid of the Government.

Here we have a case where these people feel so strongly about the matter that they are prepared to finance and to develop the area with their own money if the Government would only reconsider its decision. I want to make an earnest appeal to the hon. the Minister to use his influence, which I believe is quite considerable, with the Cabinet, and to ask them at least to re-open this question and to go into the matter very fully to see whether some other area within the municipal boundaries would not be suitable for Indian occupation.

*Mr. L. P. J. VORSTER:

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member will not take it amiss of me if I do not associate myself with what he has said. I should prefer to associate myself with what the hon. members for Fauresmith and Gordonia have said here. I appreciate what they said. I have also taken cognizance of the hon. the Minister’s reply, where he mentioned an inquiry in respect of the Western and North Western Cape, and this made me feel that I should also say a few words here in respect of another area, and take up the cudgels for that area. I am referring to the area which is served by what is probably one of the most recent development associations, namely the upper Karoo area. This includes, inter alia, the divisional council areas of Hanover, De Aar, Phillipstown, Colesberg, Britstown, Hopetown and Douglas. On the Cape side that area is situated next to the Orange River Development project. If I take up the cudgels for this area what I really want to do is link this up with the development which is taking place in the river basin itself.

I think it is obvious that one could expect that development to stimulate other development as well. Most of the Cape, with the exception of the urban areas along the coast, consists of rural areas where the chief activity is agriculture. The surface area of the Cape Province is larger than that of all the other Provinces put together, and the largest portion of this consists of rural areas where the chief activity is agriculture. It is clear therefore that industrial development in this Province has to a large extent lagged behind. On the other hand we have places like Cape Town, Port Elizabeth and East London where there are such concentrations of industries that it appears in fact to be an unsound situation. I think that one can justifiably advocate that some of these industries should be transferred to other areas. Let me now furnish a number of reasons why I have selected the aforesaid part of the Cape Province as the area to which the industries should be transferred. The reason, however, for my doing so is not because a large section of the area falls within my constituency. I want to have these transferred there because I link this up with the development taking place within the Orange River Basin. I have another reason as well. Decentralization and development of industries, particularly in a rapidly developing country like South Africa, is probably extremely desirable, and I do not believe any one will make any objection to this. We have many enemies in the world. We are often threatened. It is even possible that we will be attacked. If we take these factors into consideration then we must bear in mind how vulnerable we are in the southern part of the Republic where so many industries are situated along the coast.

Twenty miles west of Kimberley there is a granite koppie which is alleged to be the geographic centre of the Republic. It has almost been blasted out of existence in order to make way for a road, but the remains are still there. This place is of special importance to me, and I shall tell hon. members why. Suppose an enemy decided to attack us. They would have to cover vast distances to get at us there in the middle of the Republic. A Defence Force centre can be established there, and from that units can very easily be sent in all directions. We have national roads and special roads serving that area. There are three main railway lines passing through there. The infrastructure of industrial development is of course of the utmost importance, and factors which play a particular role there are of course the provision of electricity, water, transport, housing and labour.

We believe that when the Orange River project has been fully developed, there will be a sufficient supply of electrical power, water and transport in that area. In regard to labour and housing. I do not think that these will be any more difficult to obtain than in any other area. It is generally accepted and it has been strongly emphasized here in this House, that the position of the Cape is such that it deserves to be assisted and placed in a position where it can supply its own needs to a greater extent, taking into account the extensiveness of the Province and the shortage of sources of taxation. I am not going to elaborate on that now. I believe that it is in the interests of South Africa that efforts should also be made on the part of the Government to establish points of growth within the boundaries of the Cape and make it possible for this Province to develop and make progress.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

Mr. Chairman, what I have to say really concerns the hon. the Minister in his medical capacity more than in his capacity as the Minister in charge of this Vote. At the beginning of October, 1967 the hon. the Minister released a statement in which he appointed a committee to make a thorough investigation of all aspects of the need for further medical training and where and when such facilities should be established. The medical training of Whites and non-Whites was to be considered simultaneously. I think the first point, namely to investigate the need for further medical training, is unnecessary. It is obvious that we have a shortage of doctors and I do not think the committee should spend too much time investigating that aspect. The members of this investigating committee all hold very high positions in the fields of learning and I think they will be able to deal with their task quite easily. I feel that planning is not only necessary as far as the future provision of doctors is concerned but the whole field of medical and nursing services as well as allied health services needs replanning. There is a disjointed, unsatisfactory and in some areas chaotic state of affairs as far as the health services are concerned, and I feel it my duty to point out to the Minister some of the deficiencies which do exist.

Firstly let me say we are not producing enough doctors each year, and the Minister knows that. Indeed, that is one of the reasons why he appointed this committee I referred to. How are we to produce more doctors? It is eight years since I first raised this matter in the House and only a few months ago an investigating committee was appointed. That means we have lost eight years. It is disturbing to find that our universities are producing approximately the same number of doctors every year. Between 400 and 450 doctors are being produced each year.

How are we going to improve the position? I said, I think it was during the Health Vote, that I thought that a new faculty should be established in the Orange Free State. I still stand by that. I do not think that we should start enlarging the faculties that exist at the moment, until we have a new faculty that can be based in an area which can be developed in all aspects of health. The kind of thing we read about a day or two ago must not occur again. It is only by starting from the beginning that we can avoid this kind of thing. This is what Dr. Verster, the Director of Hospital Services, said about overcrowding and nursing services—

The Province had been unable to open a training school for nurses at the J. G. Strydom Hospital because the existing facilities did not conform with the requirements of the Nursing Council.

Can you imagine a hospital being built in the heart of Johannesburg which does not have proper provision for the training of nurses at this time?

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Order! What has that to do with the Department of Planning? That is a matter for the Provincial Council.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

Mr. Chairman, with due respect, I should like to say that it is this hon. Minister whom I am asking to plan for these services. He issued a statement in this Tegard.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

The hon. the Minister cannot plan for services not referred to his Department.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

The Minister of Planning has issued a Press statement in which he has asked for this.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

It only concerns the appointment of a commission.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

Mr. Chairman, I will bow to your ruling but I want to point out that one of the three points to be investigated is where and when such facilities can be established. I want to point out to the hon. the Minister that you cannot establish a faculty of medicine without providing for the concomitant services. This is what has happened in the case of the J. G. Strydom Hospital. They have built a hospital which cost millions of rands and they do not have the proper facilities for the training of nurses. I feel I must bring that to the notice of the House.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

That does not fall under this Minister.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

Mr. Chairman, I know full well that hon. members opposite will try to avoid discussing this matter.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member is now reflecting on the Chair.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

No, I did not intend that.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Yes, the hon. member Is. I have ruled that this is a provincial matter.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

Mr. Chairman, I apologize to you if you think that I am reflecting on the Chair, but I do not mean to. I do want to point out the faults in the planning of our hospital services, not only in the Transvaal, but throughout South Africa. I must have some platform to do this. Whenever I have tried to raise these matters, I have been told that it does not fall under this Minister or that Minister. Somebody must be responsible for it. If the hon. the Minister of Planning is at the head of Planning, I want him to tackle this matter.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member must now return to the Vote.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

That is what I have been trying to do.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

No, the hon. member has not been doing so.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

Mr. Chairman, I will abide by your ruling and deal with this Press statement of the hon. the Minister of Planning. I will only deal with what concerns the hon. the Minister of Planning and nothing else. I will not divert from this. The medical training of Whites and non-Whites is to be considered simultaneously. This is what the hon. the Minister’s report says. I am referring to the report of the Minister of Planning and not to that of the hon. the Minister of Health. I want to know whether or not he is going to make use of the Baragwanath Hospital, as an entity in itself, or whether he is going to suggest to the Minister of Health or the Minister of Education that they should make use of the Baragwanath Hospital as part of the University of Witwatersrand. The Minister of Planning will say that that is not his business.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

This commission is to advise us on this matter.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

The commission is going to advise the hon. the Minister. What will the hon. the Minister do when the commission issues its findings?

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

I will make its findings available to the House.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

The Minister of Planning will therefore receive the findings of the commission. I want to know how the hon. the Minister will feel if it should happen that the commission determines that the Baragwanath Hospital, which is at present a non-white hospital, should be used for teaching the Bantu from Soweto and give them the opportunity of becoming doctors at that hospital, under the aegis of the University of the Witwatersrand. Will he agree to that, or will he refuse the University of the Witwatersrand the right to produce Bantu doctors? That is a fair question.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

What has that to do with the Department of Planning?

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

Mr. Chairman, it does concern the Department of Planning.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

In what way?

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

The Minister himself has instituted a committee which is to report to him on the matter I am talking about now. It is to report to him on this very matter.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Hospitals fall under the Provincial Councils.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

Mr. Chairman, with due respect, I want to say that the matter with which I am dealing now concerns the Minister of Planning.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

This only concerns the appointment of a committee.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

Mr. Chairman, it is a pity that you and I have to argue about this matter, because I want to show to the hon. the Minister that he will have to receive this report and act on it. The Minister of Planning, and no other Minister, will receive this report and he will have to act on it. Mr. Chairman, if you feel that I am out of order I will abide by your ruling.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

The hon. member is out of order.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

Mr. Chairman, then I am prepared to sit down, but this report does discuss the training of Whites and non-Whites. Surely I am entitled to refer to the hon. the Minister’s statement on this matter. I only have ten minutes and I have had to use most of that to argue about my right to speak.

Mr. CHAIRMAN:

The hon. member’s time could have been put to far better use under the Health Vote.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

I know that the hon. the Minister of Health would hate me to talk about this matter because it will show the problems within his Department. I can only appeal to the Minister of Planning to bring this to the notice of the Minister of Health, so that we can at least have a plan in this regard. I am being very serious about this matter. All our health services to-day leave much to be desired. [Time expired.]

*Mr. J. J. B. VAN ZYL:

Mr. Chairman, the former speaker dealt here with what was in fact a Provincial matter. Consequently it is not my intention to follow up on what he has said in that field. There are two matters I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister of Planning. In the news broadcast yesterday morning, and in yesterday’s newspapers, we learned that Dr. A. J. A. Roux of the Atomic Energy Board had said that the coal mines in South Africa would only last another 50 to 60 years, whereas we have believed for many years that our coal reserves would supply South Africa with power for at least 2,000 years. This is unfortunately a matter which affects many of our Departments. I think the hon. Minister should give us an indication of what the situation in this regard is as quickly as possible. It has also been stated quite explicitly that the commission appointed by the hon. Minister to bring out a report in this regard has already submitted its report to the Minister. We are concerned about this situation. It was said in the daily newspapers that there was a commission which would submit a report on this matter to the Minister. If this is the case, we in South Africa would find it reassuring to know what the life of our coal mines is going to be. If their life is only going to be 50 to 60 years then we are faced by a very grave problem, namely that we will have to convert to the use of nuclear power stations very rapidly. If our coal reserves are only going to last another 50 to 60 years, and if we still have to establish these power stations, then we have adequate proof that this will have to be done rapidly. We will probably make use of nuclear power in the years which lie ahead. While I am now discussing this matter, I would also like to ascertain whether the hon. the Minister can give us an indication as to what extent the planning, research and investigation into the desalination of sea water does exist. As we know, the major problem in South Africa to-day is water. In future we will have to think along the lines of desalinating sea water, and the sooner we get our planning in order, the better.

The second matter I want to mention affects several departments. This matter stands in regard to Pretoria and it affects the Department of Bantu Administration and the Department of Transport. The question is the envisaged roads through Pretoria. A report has already been submitted to the City Council of Pretoria, and it is estimated that the east-west and north-south through roads will cost a great deal more than R100 million. There is also the idea of a tube train system for Pretoria. This affects transport throughout the country, as well as tourism.

*Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Order! I think the hon. member must discuss this matter under the Transport Vote.

*Mr. J. J. B. VAN ZYL:

I thought that I could deal with this matter under the Planning Vote, but very well then, I shall now do so under the Transport Vote.

Mr. C. BENNETT:

Mr. Chairman, when the hon. the Minister toured the country during the recess in order to acquaint himself with conditions in various parts of the country, he must have been struck by the contrasts in the Eastern Cape. Firstly one has the rapidly expanding industrial complex in the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage area, a complex which has now partly reached the stage where growth is self-generating, and then on the other side of the area one has the East London-King William’s Town complex, where growth still has to be stimulated. I think the hon. the Minister will agree that the steps taken hitherto have not stimulated growth in that complex as much as he would like to have seen it, or as much as hon. members on this side of the House would have liked to see growth stimulated. There is also a third area. Apart from the time the hon. the Minister spent between Port Elizabeth and East London, I am not certain whether the hon. the Minister went into the big hinterland of the Eastern Cape itself, namely the hinterland of the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage complex and the hinterland of the East London-King William’s Town complex. There we have some of the most depressed areas in the country, namely the Cape Midlands and the areas immediately to the east of the Cape Midlands. If we look at map 10 of the development atlas of the Republic we see how very low the per capita income is and at what a low level economic activity is in that vast area. There are nine districts in that area, which I do not want to name because my time is limited. In half of those districts, there is a per capita income of less than R150 per annum and in the other half the per capita income lies between R150 and R200 per annum. This is about half of what it is in the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage complex. It is clear that in these areas, because they lack many of the basic mineral resources such as coal and iron, that there will have to be a sustained and all-out effort to get some development going. Not merely are certain parts of that area not developing, but it is actually retrogressing and is one of the parts of the country where the problem of European depopulation is at its most acute.

Various methods have been suggested whereby the development of the area could be stimulated and in particular whereby the development of that industrial complex in the King William’s Town-East London area could be stimulated. I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to one of the disadvantages that the whole of the Eastern Cape is suffering from, including the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage complex, namely expensive electrical power. The figures for the Border undertaking of Escom show that the average price per unit of electricity sold in 1966, according to the latest report of the Electricity Supply Commission, was 1.1204 cents per unit. If we go to the other extreme and we look at the cheapest area in the country as far as electricity is concerned, we find that on the Rand and in the Orange Free State the price was only .4117 cents per unit. In other words, in the Border area and in the Eastern Cape as a whole served by the Escom Border undertaking, the electricity was three times as expensive as on the Rand and in the Orange Free State. Cheaper electrical power is a basic requirement for proper industrial growth and for proper economic growth in general in these depressed areas. One of the most urgent needs of the Eastern Cape as a whole is that the whole of the Eastern Cape should be linked to the new national grid of the Electricity Supply Commission, the 400 KV-grid, as is going to be the case with the Western Cape and Natal. If this is not done, then not merely is there not going to be any progress there, but we are also liable actually to have industries moved out from the Border-King William’s Town complex, for example, as is already happening. As an example, I can mention that the Fiat motor cars are no longer assembled in East London. They are now assembled at Rosslyn, because they are nearer to the main market of the Witwatersrand and they are free of the disadvantage of expensive power. We know why the power in the Eastern Cape is expensive. In the first instance it is because the generating units and the power stations are small. There are a large number of small generating stations scattered all over the area. The cost of generation decreases with the size of the station and with the size of the generating set. The capital cost per kilowatt installed, for example, at the proposed new Arnott station is going to be something like R75, whereas in one of the Border stations, namely the Westbank No. 2 station, it is R156, i.e. exactly double. The second reason is naturally the cost of transporting the coal. I want to quote from the report of Escom to show how big an effect this has on the cost of electricity. This particular paragraph relates to the cost of transporting coal to the Western Cape, but the same principle holds as far as the Eastern Cape is concerned. It says—

The prospects inherent in the building of a further coal fired station in the Cape is that the cost of railage alone will rise to plus-minus six-tenths of a cent per unit during the lifetime of the station. Escom estimates that the cost of transmitting power to the Cape by means of the 400 K.V. transmission system will be plus-minus two-tenths of a cent per unit when the loads have been built up.

In other words, by bringing that transmission line down to the Western Cape, the electricity in the Western Cape is eventually going to be one-third cheaper than it would have been if another coal powered station had been built in the Western Cape. The position in regard to the Eastern Cape is exactly the same. I know that there are difficulties. It is a question of getting potential big power users such as all the municipalities and the Railways to take part. I want to impress upon the hon. the Minister that unless this question of the provision of cheaper electrical power is solved, there is going to be a brake on the development throughout the whole of the Eastern Cape and particularly in the King William’s Town-East London industrial complex. I know that this is one of the things which has been enjoying the attention of a committee of the Resources and Planning Advisory Council. I hope that this is one of the matters that the hon. the Minister is going to give continued and urgent attention to.

The MINISTER OF PLANNING:

Mr. Chairman, it is quite obvious that the hon. member who has just sat down knows his part of the country, the Eastern Cape, very well. I must say that, to my regret, my visit to that region was far too brief. I hope to pay another visit, if not this year, sometime next year. Apart from that, may I say that that area, and especially the depressed areas the hon. member referred to, are very much under consideration in my department. The Berlin area, in particular, is being given special attention at this very moment.

He mentioned figures in regard to the supply of electricity. I do not have the figures before me, but I know it is also one of the difficulties in the establishment of industries. I do not think the difficulties he mentioned are quite as great as he put them, but I will certainly ask my department to look into that matter and to give me a report on that particular aspect.

*The hon. member for Sunnyside touched upon the question of coal. It is correct that Dr. Roux said this, but the hon. member is also aware that at this stage we have had a very thorough and exhaustive investigation instituted into the question of our coal reserves. I think I can say at this stage that the old prediction that we have sufficient coal for 2,000 years, is to my mind an unacceptable one. Personally, I am concerned about the situation in regard to coal in the future. I have not received a report as yet. A brief report has in fact been submitted to me merely for the purpose of reporting how much progress has been made, but so far I have not received the report.

Under the Mining Vote I made a full statement in regard to the desalination of seawater. But in passing I just want to say that according to the methods used at present it would be unremunerative to incorporate it with the nuclear power-station which, it is hoped, will come into operation in 1968, provided that the Electricity Supply Commission takes a decision to that effect.

The question of through-roads is not a matter which falls within the scope of the Department of Planning, with the proviso that it will in fact be reviewed by the Capital City Planning Committee. There is a central committee consisting out of myself, the Administrator of the Transvaal and the chairman of the City Council Executive. This matter will in fact be considered once the report of the Capital City Planning Committee has been submitted to us.

†I would like to point out to the hon. member for Rosettenville that it is not my function as Minister of Planning to plan the medical services of the Republic. But I will certainly bring his problems to the notice of the Minister of Health.

*As regards the committee on the training of doctors, we expect the report to be available at the end of this year or early next year. They are hard at work on it at the moment. The hon. member for De Aar, like other hon. members, drew my attention to the importance of his region. It is correct that the central point of the Republic is in the vicinity of Kimberley. Viewed from a security angle, it seems to me as though it may perhaps be the obvious place for a munitions depot. But I can assure the hon. member that there is not one single area in the Republic which cannot be inspected by my Planning Adviser and my Department. That assurance I can give the hon. member.

In a very neat way and in great earnest the hon. member for Johannesburg (North) brought the case of the Indian community of Johannesburg under our notice. Nor did the hon. member hesitate to say that he was doing so on their behalf, and that they had approached him. I think the one piece of information he did not give us, was that he was speaking on behalf of the United Party City Council of Johannesburg, for their views are the same.

Mr. D. J. MARAIS:

That is all right.

*The MINISTER:

I do not say that it is wrong, but I just want to put the facts straight. I want to say that in Lenasia there is enough room to house the total Indian population of Johannesburg. In the second place, I heard that the City Council of Johannesburg had already decided to incorporate Lenasia with the Johannesburg municipal area. In the third place, I cannot for the life of me understand why the hon. member uses the various areas near Durban, Pietermaritzburg and other cities as examples and regards the one area in Johannesburg as being inadequate.

*Mr. D. J. MARAIS:

But they have a choice there.

*The MINISTER:

But the fact of the matter is that the respective areas at the other centres are the result of the course of hisory. In Johannesburg there is one area which is so large that it can also comprise various residential areas. I should imagine that it would be much better for the Indian community or for any other community to live together in one area, where facilities for their collective use may be developed for them on a large scale. I think that in view of the fact that there is one large area at the moment, it would be totally wrong to start a process of fragmentation. For that reason I regret to say that I cannot accede to the hon. member’s request.

The hon. member also mentioned that the Indian community would be prepared to make a financial contribution towards making the implementation of their request possible. For the sake of South Africa I want to say in this regard that those people who attack South Africa so often and have all sorts of things to say about how we treat our population group, ought to take cognizance of what the financial means are of the Indian group that is allegedly being oppressed in South Africa, if they are able to make an offer like that.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Only a small proportion of them.

*The MINISTER:

But I want to repeat that the hon. member presented the case to us in a very neat way.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein (District) spoke about the problems experienced in his constituency, and he mentioned Thaba ’Nchu in particular. I visited the area myself. Like other areas, consideration is definitely being given to Thaba ’Nchu as well. Up to now we have been finding it very difficult to establish industries there. But I can tell the hon. member that in the light of the establishment problems we are experiencing, the plea he made for that area will not pass unnoticed. He also suggested that the area situated 19 miles from Thaba ’Nchu should be released for industrial development. I investigated the matter, as the hon. member knows, but it is a matter which will unfortunately entail a considerable number of establishment problems, and in this regard I cannot give any assurances.

†I shall deal in detail, and also in general, with what the hon. member for Houghton said in a few moments. The hon. member quoted what the F.C.I. had said. Up to this moment the F.C.I. have not brought a single case to my notice where they are having any difficulties.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

They are against the whole law.

The MINISTER:

In principle they are against the law, and I am not going to argue this point, because the principle has been accepted by this Parliament. All I can say to the F.C.I. is that it will be to their good and to the benefit of their members if they accept the situation, because they cannot do anything about it. That is the law of the country.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

They can change the government sometimes.

The MINISTER:

Unfortunately, neither the F.C.I. nor the hon. member can even change the government.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

You never can tell.

The MINISTER:

They have been trying so hard, and up to now they have had no success at all.

The hon. member also raised the question of industrial areas where mines come to a standstill. She also pleaded that these areas are admirably suited for industrial development. I quite agree. It can be done in very many cases. I want to make it quite clear that, taking into consideration the hundreds of morgen of industrial land available on the Witwatersrand, I am not prepared to give permission for any more industrial land to be established. But if it is good planning, if this land is so admirably suited for industrial purposes, I am quite prepared to consider a swop for present industrial land, which can be perhaps very much better used for residential purposes. So this land can become industrial land, but subject to this qualification.

*The hon. member for Brakpan also raised the question of mines which were coming to a standstill, and wanted to know whether it was not possible for us to use those facilities for further industrial development. I shall deal with that matter later on, but I may just inform the hon. member that this is a matter to which real attention is being given at the moment by the department and specifically by the division dealing with physical planning. The hon. member will also recall that in the course of the debate on the Physical Planning Bill I made it very clear that in the implementation of the Act the question of the mines that were coming to a standstill and the question of the development of industries there would have to be faced very squarely.

†The hon. member for Port Natal raised the question of group areas for Indians and pleaded for those people who had suffered. Obviously the shifting of people of whatever colour from one area to another brings about a certain amount of hardship; there is no getting away from it, but I can assure the hon. member that in the application of the Group Areas Act, which is not the function of my department but of the Department of Community Development, they try to see that as little hardship as possible is caused.

*The hon. member for Outeniqua referred to Uitenhage and Heidelberg. I agree with the hon. member that the fact that the sword of deproclamation hangs over people’s heads, causes uncertainty, and that is something we want to eliminate at all costs, but, on the other hand, it may not stand in the way of the department to effect deproclamation if it is in the best interests of everybody concerned. As regards Heidelberg, over a period of years this matter has been examined very thoroughly from every angle, and I doubt whether we can effect an improvement in that regard, but I gave the hon. member the undertaking that I would discuss the whole matter with him personally and go into the merits of the case. I shall keep that promise. As regards Uitenhage, the application for deproclamation has not reached the department as yet. We have no knowledge of it as yet. But the question of deproclamation at Uitenhage may in fact be a matter which we can consider. Improvements may perhaps be effected there.

The hon. member for Smithfield suggested that South Africa could in fact have one single capital. He said that such a capital could possibly be situated in the Free State, and requested that we should at least have an investigation instituted in his regard. Mr. Chairman, this matter rouses great interest. Pretoria is interested in it; Cape Town is interested in it and the Free State is interested in it. It is an emotional matter. Therefore I do not want to leave his matter hanging in the air. Consequently I want to give the hon. member a frank reply. I can appreciate that people feel very strongly about the question of a capital; I can appreciate that people hold various views in regard to this matter, but let me state very clearly that I feel as strongly about the traditions and customs that have brought us where we are to-day and have given rise to the present situation, where Cape Town is the legislative capital and Pretoria the administrative capital. I want to state very clearly that unless I am specifically instructed to do so, I myself will do nothing to initiate such an investigation. To my mind Cape Town must remain the legislative capital, Pretoria the administrative capital and Bloemfontein the judicial capital. Therefore I want to squash any speculation by saying that at this stage we shall definitely not initiate such an investigation.

Then I should like to mention a few things in connection with the Physical Planning Act. I shall start by mentioning a few general points. It was said here that 19th January was an inopportune time. The industrialists could have informed us of that in advance, but they did not do so. I do not take it amiss of them, but the department gave instructions to the effect—and this is the way the Act is administered—that if by 19th January an industrialist had failed to comply with the regulation in respect of Bantu labour, he should not be penalized. There is, therefore, no problem in this regard, nor do we experience any problems. Secondly, it is true that in this transitional period industrialists have in fact entered into financial and other commitments in regard to the purchase of land and even the drafting of building projects. In cases where they apply for Bantu labour and where they have entered into financial and other commitments, these factors are well and truly taken into account in the transitional period, and they are not penalized either. However, I want to emphasize the fact that this is a transitional period. Then there is the question of industrialists who have concluded certain contracts. Such contracts are also taken into account and provision is also made for them so that those industrialists may not be placed in an unfavourable position, i.e. in regard to contracts already concluded, as a result of the implementation of the legislation which came into operation on 19th January.

The hon. member for Brakpan, and others, referred to the question of the ratio between Whites and Blacks in the industrial sector. Let me make it very clear that I am not prepared to lay down at any time a formula for industries as a whole. Secondly, I am not prepared to accept a certain ratio between white and Bantu employees in an industry as a norm. In fact, I am not prepared to lay down any percentage concession in regard to the employment of new Bantu labourers as an absolute norm. I stand by the way we have been handling this matter up to now. The experience we have gained so far, has furnished us with ample proof to the effect that every industry is an entity on its own; that one is dealing with individual matters. We treat each case on its merits and not according to a general norm. I want to state explicitly that the industrial sector will under no circumstances obtain from me or from my department a determination of certain norms. Each industry approaches the department with its individual problems which we try to solve and consider in a humane way, and that will be the policy in future. It is incumbent upon the Government—and I feel that this also applies in the administration of this Act—to adopt an open and very sympathetic attitude towards the smaller industry and the smaller industrialist as far as the employment of Bantu in the large metropolitan areas is concerned. In this respect I am referring to one-man-industries or two-man-industries. There are many such industries on the Witwatersrand, in Port Elizabeth and in other places, industries which find it impossible to move to the border areas and which cannot effect a considerable increase in the number of Bantu employed in the industrial sector. As far as new industries are concerned, I also want to say that the metropolitan areas should accept that they are in a desperate position as compared to border industries. I shall specifically use my department and the powers I have under the Physical Planning Act to make it very difficult or impossible for new industries which can be established in border areas, to be established in the metropolitan areas.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

How will you decide whether it is possible or not?

*The MINISTER:

The decision in this regard is not a difficult one. If the industry concerned can, according to the information with which we are furnished by that industry itself, go to the border areas, it will not be permitted to be established in Johannesburg or Port Elizabeth or Cape Town, because we cannot allow the cities to become blacker and blacker and the Bantu homelands to be drained of Bantu, whilst it is possible for us to establish industries for them on the borders.

Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

What about the existing population in places like Soweto?

*The MINISTER:

I am coming to that. On this specific point I want to say that in spite of all the opposition and the very considerable antipathy that have been built up since 1960 by hon. members opposite and their Press— nobody else—the border industries have become an unprecedented success. In our homelands approximately 35,000 Bantu men are being made available for our labour market every year. We know that roughly 20 per cent, or one out of every five Bantu men, take up employment in the industrial sector. In other words, of those 35,000 Bantu, approximately 7,000 will be or can be assimilated in the industrial sector. Over the past six years, from 1960 to 1966, an average of 5,000 per annum was assimilated in border industries. If, under circumstances where border area development was made to seem so suspect, we have been able to assimilate 5,000 of the 7,000 who were available for employment in the industrial sector, I maintain that we have every right to say that we shall be able to make a huge, tremendous success of border industry development in South Africa.

*Dr. J. H. MOOLMAN:

As regards the observation the hon. the Minister has just made, does it also relate to the Ciskei/Transkei complex? Will the same sort of ratio apply there?

*The MINISTER:

Yes. I am referring to border industries as a whole. Mr. Chairman, let me furnish you with another figure: Over the six-year period from 1960 to 1966, 161,000 Bantu men became available for the industrial sector in the country as a whole. Of this total of 161,000, 49,000 were assimilated in border industries over these six years. In other words, over the first six years of border area development one-third of everybody who became available for employment was assimilated in those industries. If this is not an achievement, then I do not know what an achievement is.

*Maj. J. E. LINDSAY:

That figure is not correct.

*The MINISTER:

The attitude adopted by this side of the House is that it does not matter where industries develop—it is still in the interests of South Africa—but the attitude adopted by the hon. member for Houghton is that if this development does not take place in Johannesburg, it is lost to South Africa.

*Mrs. H. SUZMAN:

Nonsense.

*The MINISTER:

I want to make it clear here that the implementation of this legislation will not impede industrial development in the country as a whole, and I want to repeat my invitation to all industrialists and to the directorates of all companies that are interested in the industrial sector: Hold round-table conferences and decide for yourselves how soon you can go to the border areas. There are benefits for the industrialists, and those who have gone there, are not sorry that they have done so.

*Maj. J. E. LINDSAY:

Those benefits are not good enough.

*The MINISTER:

Sir, that hon. member’s constituency has derived greater benefits from border area development than has any other constituency in South Africa. This dispute about this legislation, i.e. the difference between the attitude of the United Party and that of the National Party, is once again the old confrontation between the policy of separation on the one hand, and, on the other hand, the policy of integration. The United Party does not want separation; that is why they are against this legislation. The greatest folly in this debate was the question asked by the United Party: “What is integration?” They do not know their own child. Since when is once ashamed of one’s own child? “What is integration?” The United Party wants integration in various spheres. It wants to effect it in a few ways, and it also wants to cast suspicion on this Act. They want to obstruct it by scaring the Whites, since these things may give rise to independence for the Blacks. On the other hand, it also wants to create uncertainty for the black man as far as the implementation of this legislation is concerned. But it goes further than that. It wants to offer the black man integration [Interjections.]

*Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Order!

*The MINISTER:

It wants integration in this Parliament as well. [Interjections.] In implementing this legislation I shall bring about more and more separation, but the Opposition wants more and more integration. Any measure which shows as much as a sign of success, such as border areas, dismays them. It is bad news to the United Party.

Allow me to conclude, as far as this Vote is concerned, by saying a few words about the Physical Planning Act. I do so because there may perhaps be some confusion owing to all the sordid things that were written and said in this regard. There is confusion amongst a large section of the public, because they do not know what a border area is.

*An HON. MEMBER:

Tell us what it is.

*The MINISTER:

I shall do so, but before I do so, I want to say why there has to be a border area. Here in South Africa we have the unique situation that we have been given, unlike any other country in the world, a country for each nation.

Dr. E. L. FISHER:

What about the Coloureds?

*The MINISTER:

In this respect we are only dealing with the Bantu under this legislation. [Interjections.]

*Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Order!

*The MINISTER:

The fact of the matter is that, although we consider North Africa to be a geographic entity, it does not constitute one country; it does not have a Prime Minister and it does not have a President and it does not have a one Parliament.

North Africa, like West Africa, is a geographic entity but comprises a number of countries. And the same applies to South Africa, or Southern Africa. Here we have the white Republic of South Africa. We have Lesotho, Botswana and Swaziland, and we have the Transkei and the other Bantu areas. In implementing this legislation we shall, in spite of the United Party, see to it that the Bantu have employment and that it is possible for them to do a good day’s work. But at the same time we shall see to it that that day’s work is done, not by allowing them to migrate to the major cities, but by ensuring that they find homes for themselves in their own homeland. In other words, we have a border industry area where the industry belongs to the white man, and where the industry is situated on white man’s land. But the black man who works there will be living on his land which can never be alienated from him, where he can live with his wife, his children and his people and serve on his town council and on the board of his territorial authority, and where he has the opportunity, as we see it in the Transkei, of becoming chief minister of a member of his cabinet. That is what is meant by border area development.

But apart from the economic benefits it involves and apart from the fact that we are obviating the necessity of having to provide the Bantu, at very great expense, with accommodation and transport facilities and everything that goes with it in Johannesburg, we are in this way affording the Bantu every opportunity of realizing themselves socially and politically, without bringing about integration with the Whites. When I say that, I believe that in implementing the Physical Planning Act we shall accomplish one thing in the Republic of South Africa.

*Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Order! Hon. members at the back must listen to the Minister’s reply.

*The MINISTER:

Sir, I do not take it amiss of those hon. members, for they know this policy as well as I do. But the fact of the matter is that it has become necessary to tell hon. members opposite what a border area is, in view of the fact that they are making such foolish requests to me; for instance, that I should also declare Port Elizabeth to be a border area or that I should declare Soweto to be a Bantustan, as they call it. But let me say this to hon. members, and they can repeat this to the industrialists. In implementing this legislation we shall not impede industrial development, but we shall definitely and without any flexibility not permit large numbers of Bantu to be lured to the cities, as has been the case in the past. That is our whole starting-point. That is also the difference, I repeat, and the gist of the clash of policies, i.e. between the integration policy of the other side and the policy of this side of the House, namely that of bringing about more and more separation between the Whites and the Blacks.

Votes put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 52,—Posts, Telegraphs, Telephones and Radio Services, R107,378,000, and Loan Vote C,—Telegraphs, Telephones and Radio Services, R38,450,000:

*Mr. E. G. MALAN:

I am not going to ask for the privilege of the half hour, because our time for the Estimates is so limited. I shall try to say all I want to say within the brief period of ten minutes which I have at my disposal.

The hon. the Minister of Posts has now been in office for four months and I think we are entitled to ask him to give account of what he has accomplished during this period. I must say that there are signs, with him in charge of this large Department, which are causing us concern to-day. He was a new broom, but we are wondering whether the new broom has swept as clean as one might have hoped. One wonders whether the shadow of the dead hand of the Albert Hertzog past is perhaps not still resting on this Department.

We have heard of a new dispensation and we are asking what progress has been made with this new dispensation. I know that good progress is being made with the legislation, but there is preparatory work which can already be done and we are asking to what extent this has been done. There are two tests to which we must subject the Minister and his Department to-day, and these are the following. Firstly, is the public satisfied with what they are receiving from the Department, and secondly, is the staff satisfied with what they are receiving to-day?

Let us consider the services to the public first. In my opinion there is the overriding fact of the tremendous shortage, the inexplicable, increasing shortage, in the telephone services in South Africa to-day. Less than a year ago the editor of Dagbreek wrote (translation)—

The waiting list for telephones is approaching the figure of 40,000. A normal backlog would not be more than 9,000. Cable facilities are quite inadequate, and the delay between cities such as Cape Town and Johannesburg can easily be between four and five hours. Trunk-calls are often a practice in the exercising of patience, particularly in the case of after hours services. Someone put it this way: All you get when you dial 50, is the nought.

This was said by the editor of Dagbreek, not by me. Let us look at the shortage on three different dates, i.e. on 31st March in three different years. On 31st March, 1963, the shortage was only 11,000, without special legislation for this new dispensation. Four years later, in 1967, the telephone shortage was 48,000; and to-day it is close on, if not already more than 60,000. The Minister himself does not know what it is to-day. He only knows what it was on 31st March. He could not even ask his staff whether the pile of applications was increasing or diminishing in size.

I hope he can give us more information today. Since this Minister became the Minister, the telephone shortage has unfortunately increased by 5,000 and then we hear this unfortunate statement of his that it will take at least five years before these shortages are eliminated. Something is wrong.

In the past they were able to reduce the telephone shortages; why can it not be done to-day? Why is the Post Office marking time? I know that new telephones are being installed, but not enough of them. This is the major problem; this is the great backlog which has to be made up. We must bear in mind that these telephone shortages are hampering the economy. They are hampering progress, they are causing time and money to be wasted, and something has to be done about the matter.

I could speak about many other matters, but I have only ten minutes. I could speak about the telephone directory printing contracts, about the inexplicable printing contract for the telephone directory of the Peninsula, which was taken away from a company which had had it for years and was given to a subsidiary of Die Vaderland and Dagbreek in Johannesburg, while the tender of the Cape firm was lower and the paper which is now being used is of poorer quality too. I could speak about the compulsory payment of deposits by telephone subscribers on the Witwatersrand, about the curtailed delivery services and the delayed deliveries of letters, and about the increase in rates last year. I looked up the figures the other day, and I found that in America there are trunk-call rates which decreased by 76 per cent over a period of 30 years; from 1932. It is 76 per cent cheaper to-day to telephone between Boston and San Francisco, a distance of 3,000 miles, than it was 30 years ago.

Neither will it help the hon. the Minister to present me with the explanation that the telephone services have expanded enormously since 1948. Let me tell him this. There are about three times as many telephones to-day as there were in 1948, but let me also tell him that in Rhodesia there are six times as many telephones to-day as there were in 1948, in the Netherlands four times as many, in Italy six times as many, and, in Japan ten times as many. This is one of the major problems and the hon. the Minister will be tested in terms of how he succeeds in eliminating these telephone shortages.

I come to the second point I want to raise, and that is the problem of the large staff who work so hard and with such self-sacrifice in this large department, this staff who have to work 200,000 hours overtime per week, which is more than in the case of virtually all the other State Departments together, except the Railways. We on this side share their deep disappointment at what was announced in this Budget in connection with their wages and salary scales. It was so serious that the Postal and Telegraph Association took the quite extraordinary step last month of convening what they call a special congress in connection with the salaries and wages of Post Office staff. The hon. the Minister himself knows how this is constituted. The various districts are also represented in it. They call it a special congress. As far as I know, something like this has not happened for a very long time. It shows that the problem is so serious that a special congress had to be called. And I am not the one to say this. Here we have the Postal and Telegraph Association, which represents tens of thousands of Post Office workers, saying (translation)—

The Association is of the opinion that the Post Office Staff, who still have to render the same dedicated service, were badly neglected in being granted fringe benefits only.

His own people are saying this.

*The MINISTER OF POSTS AND TELEGRAPHS:

Why do you not read the statement made by the Postal Association?

*Mr. E. G. MALAN:

I wish I had the time to do all this. If I had had a few half hours as the Minister has, I would have done so. We must bear in mind that the Post Office has the smallest number of top posts of all the departments, and therefore the smallest opportunities for promotion. Most of the other departments have a 40-hour working week, but the Post Office does not have this. The other departments have a five-day working week, but the Minister’s Department does not have this. 200,000 hours of overtime are worked per week, and they are only paid l⅙ and 1⅓ times normal pay, while in the Department of the Government Printer they receive 1½ to double pay for Sundays. These are the hard facts which are reflected in the continual resignations by members of the Post Office staff. One out of six of the permanent staff resigned last year, which means 4,000 out of 26,000, and in the case of the temporary staff one out of four, or 2,000 out of 8,000, resigned. These numbers are in respect of the white staff. I am not even mentioning the non-white staff. No wonder that the S.A. Telecommunications Association—I do not know whether the Minister reads their magazine Live Wire—wrote the following in last month’s edition (translation)—

Seen on an overall basis, we doubt very much whether this modest concession will help in any way to relieve the critical staff position. The exodus of trained and skilled staff from the technical and auxiliary ranks has assumed simply alarming proportions over the past two years. Considerably more than 300 officers left the Service during the past 12 months.

These are not my words; these things are being said by the large technical association of the Post Office. This is the position. [Time expired.]

*Dr. C. P. MULDER:

Mr. Chairman, we had begun to think that the hon. member for Orange Grove had perhaps been cured of his ailment of always being negative, and continually being merely insulting and derogatory. I thought he could get over that habit of his, but it seems now that for a few weeks only the. hon. member suffered a relapse or was in a semi-conscious state, call it what you will, for he has now returned with precisely the same pessimistic theme he voices in this debate every time. We on this side have now tired of the hon. member’s habit of beginning the debate, regardless of how high the level it was on, on such a low note that nobody can join him in what he has to say. I am certain the hon. the Minister will reply to the attacks made.

I would just like to mention a few points in regard to the telephones, about which that side has kicked up such a tremendous fuss. The hon. member probably knows that the former Minister said—and this Minister repeated it—that as a result of the increased call charges introduced last year, and the fact that it is possible for the telephone service to make use of that money itself, as well as the fact that the Post Office is now controlling its own finances, it will now be possible to make up the backlog in due course. Does the hon. member expect miracles to be performed in three months? Did he think millions of telephones were lying around, waiting to be installed? Did he think the former Minister was simply too inadequate to have them installed? What lay behind the hon. member’s argument? What did he think? Does the hon. member realize that the number of telephones installed has increased during the past year by as much as 60,000? That means 5,000 per month. This has taken place despite staff shortages, and a shortage of certain technical equipment which was experienced owing to financial problems. It cannot be expected that the shortage will be supplied within three months. The shortage has arisen over a period of years, owing to the circumstances prevailing. I think the hon. member was unreasonable in his attack on this aspect of the service. Maintenance services must continually be rendered. The number of telephones in South Africa has increased from 1,119,000 to 1,179,900, which means an increase of 60,000, and all those telephones must be maintained. They must continually be serviced and repaired. That was the first mean attack.

*The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. J. A. L. BASSON):

Order! Did the hon. member say it was a “mean” attack?

*Dr. C. P. MULDER:

Yes, Mr. Chairman, was it not a mean attack?

*The TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN (Mr. J. A. L. BASSON):

Order! The hon. member must withdraw that.

*Dr. C. P. MULDER:

I withdraw it. In any case, I think it was a reprehensible attack, if that expression is allowable. The hon. member once again expressed criticism of the tender for the printing of the telephone directory. Does the hon. member know that tenders are called for the printing of the telephone directory? Does he know that the lowest tender is accepted? That is why the particular company which is at present printing the directory, was granted the contract. If the hon. member has other figures or facts at his disposal, he must kindly make them available to us. However, this is the true state of affairs. It was a public tender, and it was also the lowest tender.

The point I really want to make here this afternoon is the following: The Post Office, of course, is a tremendously large undertaking. It has grown into a huge undertaking. I want to furnish a few figures to indicate how enormous the organization of the Port Office is. The cash revenue of the Post Office was R121 million last year. The business turnover of the Post Office was R732 million in one financial year, an increase of R57 million on the figures for last year. At present the Post Office has a staff of 50,000, which of course is not a small number, nor a small factor. I want to state one or two other facts before I make my actual plea. At the moment there are 1,700,000 post office sayings accounts in the Republic and the credit balance amounts to R134.5 million. This is a large undertaking, which works with large amounts.

Now my plea is this. With the legislation recently passed, I really do not think that the Post Office will be able to continue this indecisive position. What I actually mean is this. Economically and financially the Post Office is to a certain extent free of the Treasury, but as far as its staff is concerned, it remains linked to the Public Service Commission. I think that is an untenable position. I think it will remain an untenable position if we want to operate the Post Office on an economic basis and make it financially independent, to keep it linked to the Public Service Commission. We will be compelled to take over the control over the officials, and loosen the strict ties with the Public Service Commission. That is the plea I want to make this afternoon. It is quite clear to me that on the basis of economic considerations it will be essential that this should be done. There are a few facts which I want to mention in the few minutes at my disposal.

Firstly, the Post Office staff works shifts which differ entirely from the hours worked by other public servants. They often work over week-ends, something which is not found in the Public Service. Therefore a clerk in the Post Office cannot be compared with a clerk in the Public Service. One cannot say that they have the same grade and must therefore receive the same salary. One cannot do that. The ties linking the Post Office to the Public Service Commission will have to be loosened so that the Post Office can adopt a different approach.

There is another problem as well. From the nature of the composition of the Post Office, and its problems, there are not many opportunities for promotion. Let me mention an example now. There are, for example, 40 sorters in one office, with one supervisory officer over them. All 40 men are now waiting for the one senior post. All they can do is wait. All 40 of them are placed on the same scale, i.e. that of a certain grade of clerk in the Public Service, and are then paid the salary attached to that grade. Because they cannot get promotion, they subsequently resign and leave. The Post Office man finds himself in a different position from that of the Public Servant who is likely to get promotion soon, or for whom the possibility of promotion does exist, and we consequently feel that the Post Office employees must receive salary adjustments, apart from the Public Service which will make the post to which no opportunities of promotion attaches attractive enough to ensure that the Post Office employee will remain on, be happy and earn a decent salary.

I now want to deal with another aspect, in connection with the salaries of certain senior officials. I do not want to advocate increased salaries, because I know that I cannot do so. However, let me mention a few facts. The Postmaster of Johannesburg is earning far too little for the post he occupies. Let me explain. The Johannesburg Post Office handles considerably more than R20 million in cash each year. The Johannesburg Postmaster, who is responsible for every cent of that amount, receives only R7,500 per year. Compare that with any private business which has a turnover of R20 million and more per year, and compare it with the salary of the managing director. We find the same position here in Cape Town. According to my information, this Post Office has an annual turnover of R13 million.

*Dr. J. H. MOOLMAN:

But you are now agreeing with us, and a moment ago you were opposed to us?

*Dr. C. P. MULDER:

Apparently the hon. member thinks that only that side has the right to bring facts to the attention of the Committee. It is essential that these things be mentioned clearly and emphatically. Nevertheless, the salary of the Postmaster of Cape Town, is fixed at only R6,600 per year. I do not want to intimate that the Public Service is better or worse, or anything of that kind. I only want to state that the composition and the work of the Post Office staff is different from that of the Public Service. It is completely different, and that is why we will naturally have to proceed to free it from the Public Service Commission. They cannot be forced into that straitjacket and remain that way. That simply cannot work. It is essential to get out of it. I know there are various difficulties in this regard, but I nevertheless want to make an appeal to the Minister to take active steps himself to make the Post Office staff more independent of the Public Service Commission if the undertaking is to function economically and if we take the financial aspects into consideration, i.e. if we deal with the matter as it should be dealt with. That is the plea I want to make here this afternoon. [Time expired.]

The L. F. WOOD:

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Randfontein has referred to the question of postal services and the difficulty in regard to the staff of the Post Office. We on this side have been saying these things for a long time and we can only hope that the new Act will enable the hon. the Minister and his Department to effect some improvements. There are indeed much-needed improvements.

I want to come back to another matter and that is in connection with the handling of express delivery letters. I want to quote a specific case which I believe highlights an existing anomaly in this connection. The case concerns two letters which were posted in Johannesburg before noon on the same day for delivery in Durban. The one letter was posted in an envelope containing an air mail sticker and bearing a 3 cents stamp. It arrived in Durban and was delivered by the usual postman at 10.30 a.m. on the following day. The other letter, also posted before noon, was posted by express post and it arrived at its destination by personal messenger at 4.30 p.m. on the following day. That is approximately 5½ hours later than the other letter. The recipient of these two letters was perturbed because both letters were of an urgent nature. When inquiries were made he was told that the express letter rate of 12½ cents included only surface postage. The letter lacked the extra half cent which would have made it possible for the letter to be sent by airmail. He was also informed that the additional charge of ten cents provided for the delivery by hand at the point of destination. I believe that this is not an isolated case. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that there is a simple solution. I should like to ask him to instruct his Department to take the steps to provide for this solution. I suggest that if the charge for express letters is made to include airmail postage, irrespective of whether the letter goes by airmail or surface mail, as long as it goes by the fastest and the most expeditious route, there should be no difficulty and no delay. It seems absurd to me that the letter should travel by train and take approximately 15 hours to reach its destination when it could have gone from Johannesburg to Durban in a mere 40 minutes all because of a half cent shortage in the postage. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that there should be no difficulty about this. I say this because if this is the standard rule of acceptance of letters, when they are under-posted and: do not carry the airmail charge, they should not be accepted. If, by any chance, they are sent by a non-white messenger who does not understand the position, I believe that they should be dispatched and that the recipient would be only too pleased to pay any surcharge if he could get his letter by the shortest and most expeditious route. I trust that the hon. the Minister will give consideration to this suggestion and do something to remove this anomaly which causes a great deal of distress to people who expect express post at express rates.

I come now to mail delivery services in general. I want to say to the hon. the Minister that mail delivery services are not keeping pace with speedier transport. I want to draw his attention to the fact that as long ago as 1963 the Assocom conference passed a resolution drawing the attention of the hon. the Minister’s predecessor to this fact. In answer to a question I put to the hon. the Minister on the 5th March the hon. the Minister conceded that he had received complaints in regard to mail deliveries, but that the complaints were not classified in any particular way. He said—

Two postal deliveries are invariably provided in the residential areas in the major cities when manpower permits.

I want to refer to the Durban complex, because I believe that there is no particular manpower problem there. Here again I quote figures which have been supplied to me by the hon. the Minister from time to time. The number of postmen who are employed in the Durban complex has increased by 84 per cent since 1962. The number of white and Coloured postmen has remained more or less static. The number of Indian postmen now employed has increased 11 times and the number of Bantu postmen five times. I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that he has a ready source of labour available in the Durban complex to institute without further delay postal deliveries to the suburban areas of Durban twice a day. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether there is any other reason why this should not be done and why Durban, one of the major cities in the Republic, should not enjoy facilities which in terms of the Minister’s own answer are enjoyed by other major cities. I believe that in most areas of Cape Town and Pretoria this system of two mail deliveries per day already applies. I want to put it to the hon. the Minister that if only one delivery a day is given in these main city areas, it can mean a delay of up to 14 or 15 hours before a letter which has been sent by fast aircraft can be handled and delivered to the person. This means, in effect, that the person gets the letter the next day. I believe that there is no need for this. The labour is there and I believe that the hon. the Minister should provide the public of Durban with this service.

I also want to refer to the question of the provision of telephones. My colleague, the hon. member for Orange Gove, has referred to it and also the hon. member for Randfontein. My figures, which I received from the hon. the Minister, deal with the nine telephone control areas which roughly embrace the main city areas of South Africa. One could refer to them as the hubs of commerce and industry in South Africa. These are areas where a telephone is a vital necessity to maintain satisfactory commercial and industrial activities. According to my information and my analysis of the replies there were 44,254 outstanding applications at the end of 1967 in these nine areas. This was an increase of more than 11,700 over the 1966 figure. I am aware that the number of applicants provided with telephones exceeded 76,000, but this figure of just over 76,000 is the lowest figure of telephone applications satisfied since 1964. It therefore simply means that at the present rate we are not overcoming the backlog and it is getting worse. If this situation continues I think that it will become even more chaotic than it is now. I have mentioned the nine main areas and want to refer to Durban as an example again. I want to refer to the area of Durban outside the area serviced by the Durban corporation and their telephone department. If we look at the figure of outstanding applications in 1964 we find that there were 1,243. In that same year the number of services that were provided were 5,038. This looks like good progress. In 1967, however, we find that the outstanding applications have increased to 7,516 and that the number of services provided have only increased to 5,058, an increase of only 20. This means that there are 6,000 more outstanding applications than in 1964. This is the overall position, but I want to refer to something which I think is quite serious, namely the position in regard to the non-White townships. I am now referring to Kwa Mashu, Chatsworth and Austerville. The total population involved is roughly 400,000 to 500,000 souls. The position as it stands at the moment, representing a period of four years, is that 155 private telephones have been installed in these areas during the last four years. If one considers the number of applications which have not been met over that period, we find that it is a figure of 412. 412 applications could not be met in an area of over 400,000 souls. I know that it is the intention to place call boxes at strategic points in these townships. Unfortunately, due to vandals and other irresponsible elements these call boxes are often out of order. I want to put it to the hon. the Minister that in times of crisis and unrest a telephone could be a very vital means of communication in these areas. If the problem of “out of order telephone boxes” cannot be easily surmounted I want to suggest that the applications in these non-white areas should at least receive more favourable consideration than they do at present. I believe that it is urgent, that there is a great need for it and I want to ask the hon. the Minister if he would be good enough to give this matter his attention.

*Mr. J. J. RALL:

Mr. Chairman, I should like to follow up on what the hon. member for Berea who has just resumed his seat, had to say. When he commenced his speech, he referred to two letters. What he meant by doing so, was difficult to understand, because if an hon. member rises here and admits, as he did, “it is only an isolated case” …

The L. F. WOOD:

That it is not an isolated case.

*Mr. J. J. RALL:

The hon. member is now aggravating the matter. He cannot mention many more cases, but he takes this one isolated case to indicate how poor the delivery service is. It would have been a very good thing if the hon. member also referred to post, which, having been posted 48 hours previously in Europe or in England, are delivered here 48 hours afterwards to the addressee. Why should he mention this one isolated case? In addition I want to point out that the number of postal articles handled is 1,194 million. In spite of this we are now referred by the hon. member to two letters. This is really the writing on the wall for the United Party in regard to their arguments under this particular vote.

The hon. member for Orange Grove put forward the poorest argument, which was poorer than all the poor ones he has made over the years. He was not even prepared to speak for 30 minutes. His speech was so poor that he felt he had nothing he could say and that he would cover the same ground he had covered in the past. Therefore he only spoke for ten minutes. What did the hon. member say in those ten minutes? He referred again to the staff position, and he also referred, inter alia, to the 200,000 hours of overtime, as well as to the telephone shortage. As long as I have been in this House, the hon. member has always referred to these matters. In my opinion this is absolutely unconstructive criticism. The staff shortage has in fact decreased, and why did the hon. member not point that out? In the annual report it is very clearly stated that the number of persons now employed is the greatest ever. During the past year the establishment has increased. This was also as a result of improved salary structures. As far as the tremendous amount of overtime work is concerned, it is clearly stated that in these Estimates the fine sum of R8,994,000 is being made available as a supplementary amount owing to increased tariffs. Accommodation and transportation costs have also been supplemented with an additional amount of R3 million. If hon. members plead for amounts greater than that, they must simply tell us from what source it has to be derived. They will have to admit that in view of the fact that the Post Office will now have to draw up its own estimates, these additional amounts will have to be acquired by means of increased tariffs and taxes. There is no other method of obtaining this money.

Before my time is up, I also want to avail myself of the opportunity of doing a little begging from the hon. the Minister. I know that this is not the right occasion and that it can be done departmentally; and it is in fact being done departmentally, but there are many hon. members here who avail themselves of this opportunity of doing a little begging in regard to their own constituencies. In my constituency we have in one case for example a small town in the North-eastern Free State which for many years has had to be satisfied with having their telephone exchange accommodated, their postal work done, and having the staff work in a building which is really no longer suited to that purpose. I want to ask the hon. Minister, seeing that we have now come to the start of a new dispensation, that he should not only bear important and urgent matters in mind, but that he should also provide those outposts, which serve the small towns, with the best facilities as rapidly as this can be done, because I know that Rome was not built in one day.

Another matter I want to mention is the automation of our farm telephone lines, and the automation of the telephone services in our smaller towns. We know that this will involve tremendous expense, because the demands which are being made of this Department are so great. This Department, with its communication systems, postal delivery services, telecommunication systems, telegrams and everything which has to be sent, is the centre of communication for the entire Republic of South Africa on a social, economic and in all other fields. Because I know that the demands are so great and that South Africa is undergoing a period of growth, I know that I cannot demand that these requests be complied with immediately. But we just want to experience the satisfaction of having a continuous telephone service for the outposts in my constituency made available. I am asking specifically for this because another Department is closing down police stations in order to centralize, and because this is not a continuous service, it creates a dangerous situation. Because they do not have a continuous service, they cannot communicate immediately with doctors in emergencies. Here it is of great importance. I am aware of the large number of towns and cities which are already being served by an automatic telephone exchange. I think it is in the region of 80 per cent of the entire area which is enjoying this privilege and that is why I also want to request this for the distant areas. We know that it will entail tremendous costs, and the number of subscribers will possibly not justify the costs, but one must bear in mind that services are often being rendered which are not paying. That is why I should like to advocate that the application of this policy of the automation of our telephone system for the rural areas should be expedited.

It is wonderful to see how the Post Office has grown under the National Party Government. It is in fact gratifying if one reviews the statistics, and it is only then that one can really assess the value of the poor attack made by the Opposition. They have no more arguments to put forward with which to destroy ours. In the financial sphere the Department of Posts and Telegraphs has grown fantastically. In a former speech I referred to the expansion and development of our communications systems, but here I have a short list of a few examples of growth under this National Party Government. In the entire world there are only 18 countries which have more telephones than South Africa. Are most countries not hundreds of years older than South Africa? There is for example a business turnover of R732 million, where 20 years ago it was only R168 million. The number of leased telex services has increased from 220 to 3,300.

Mr. H. M. TIMONEY:

The system is out of date in Cape Town.

*Mr. J. J. RALL:

What do you want to say? Do you want to allege that this is deterioration? You must not measure the deterioration of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs in terms of the deterioration of the United Party. I think that you have a tangible image there and something on which you can spend some time. But you must …

*Mr. CHAIRMAN:

Order! The hon. member must address the Chair.

*Mr. J. J. RALL:

Mr. Chairman, I do so gladly. But those hon. members are inclined to provoke one, and then it takes longer for me to say, “Mr. Chairman”. The number of telephones has increased from 318,500 to 1.2 million. The distance in farm lines in service, was 65,700 miles in 1948. To-day this distance is 205,000 miles. Allegedly the number of calls, because there is such a major shortage according to the United Party, has not increased as they should. These have in fact increased from 458 million to 1,330 million. I can supply numerous other statistics, but I think that these are entirely sufficient.

I want to conclude by saying that we have tremendous appreciation for the fact that the Minister and his predecessor have increased overtime