Mr. Speaker, as Chairman of the Select Committee on the Immorality Amendment Bill, I move, as an unopposed motion—

Agreed to.

I was saying last night, and I should just like to repeat it today, that South Africa’s standpoint in regard to sanctions and boycotts is based on principle. South Africa does not intend abandoning this principle under any circumstances. In regard to this matter South Africa always speaks not only on her own behalf but also on behalf of all small states, because if this principle should be accepted by the world, there would eventually be no state which would not be exposed to, or would not run the risk of, action being taken against it in this way if it should say or do anything which displeases other states. Then there would no longer be any question of ordered international law and then there would no longer be any question of ordered relations in the world; then we would indeed, to repeat the words I used last night, be back in the jungle; then we would be living in a world in which anarchy holds sway. You will recall, Mr. Chairman, that my words of last night had hardly left my lips when we saw a report in our newspapers this morning—and if this report is correct, then precisely what I foreshadowed last night has happened—to the effect that an ultimatum has been issued to the large and responsible states of the world that their affairs—very important affairs—will not receive any attention before the South West African issue has been disposed of. It will be an evil day if this is to be the pattern according to which world affairs are to be dealt with in future. To-day it may be Rhodesia, tomorrow some other state, and perhaps the day after South Africa herself. Mr. Wilson has said on various occasions that he is not seeking a confrontation with South Africa. My reply to that is this: If you do not seek a confrontation, you must not come forward with proposals which, to put it mildly, hold the potential of leading to that; then you must be very careful not to make proposals—and we know the world in which we are living—which may escalate, to use the new word which is current in the world, and which may lead to developments over which you will, ultimately, no longer have any control. In this connection I should like to express a word of appreciation to the British industrialists, businessmen and workers for the attitude which they adopt towards South Africa and in regard to these problems in general.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition told me that he was concerned about the legislation standing on the Order Paper in relation to South West Africa. In this connection he will recall that the Ovambo represent approximately 43 per cent of the population of South West Africa. They have their territory in the northern part of South West Africa. They have no desire to possess or to control the rest of South West Africa. They are satisfied with their own country and with developing their own country for their own people. What would happen if, as the United Nations wants to do, you introduced the principle of one man, one vote in South West Africa? The hon. the Leader of the Opposition is acquainted with the circumstances there. He is aware of the feeling existing among the other population groups, and one need not be a prophet to say that if you were to introduce that system in South West Africa, you would have the worst massacre probably ever to occur in Southern Africa. Whereas peace and order are prevailing there at the moment, one must expect, if the present relations are disturbed, that violence and slaughter will occur. I am amazed that people in the outside world who ought to know better, people who ought to know the history of that territory, nevertheless act in so ill-considered a fashion in this regard as they have been doing until now.

My standpoint as regards what was said by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition is that this legislation does not involve any change in the status of South West Africa. Neither are there—contrary to what the Leader said—any World Court judgments in this connection: the World Court has only expressed indirect opinions in this connection. No binding decisions have been given. In any case, that legislation, and the standpoint adopted by my colleague the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development, are of the order of self-determination, and I should like to see whether these people who make such a fuss about freedom and self-determination will take it upon themselves to condemn self-determination for the Ovambo people.

The hon. the Leader asked me about Portugal. I think it is sufficient to inform the Committee that a sound understanding exists between South Africa and its neighbour, Portugal. In passing one would do well to note that this is also in conformity with South Africa’s standpoint that she is prepared to maintain good neighbourliness and to have the best relations with neighbouring and other nations in spite of differences as far as domestic policy is concerned, as far as internal policy is concerned. The internal policy of Portugal and that of South Africa are poles apart. The one believes in separate development and the other believes in assimilation. Notwithstanding this fact the best relations and the best understanding exist between these two neighbouring states. This understanding will be maintained; it will be to our mutual benefit.

The Deputy Minister for South West Africa Affairs dealt most admirably with certain aspects of the policy in regard to these relations. I just want to reply to the question in respect of the Caborra-Bassa scheme, which is symbolic of the sound co-operation and the understanding between South Africa and Portugal. This electric power will be generated in an area belonging to Portugal. As the hon. Deputy Minister stated, it has been possible to proceed more rapidly with that scheme because Portugal alone is concerned with the water from that river. South Africa will obtain power from that scheme. I do not think it necessary for me to deal in detail with this matter at this stage. The hon. the Minister of Economic Affairs can be asked about the details of this matter when his Vote comes up for discussion.

Has any agreement been signed in this connection or not?

Yes, the agreement has been finalized, with the result that Portugal has already been able to call for tenders for the building of that dam. There may be minor points still to be finalized, but the basic principle has been agreed upon, and South Africa will receive a certain quantity of electric power, which will be conducted to Irene in the Transvaal. This will provide electric power required for expansion in South Africa. In this connection it is interesting to point out in passing, in case the relevant statistics have escaped the attention of hon. members, that many kinds of statistics can be quoted to indicate the development of a country. But to me the best indication of the development of a country is the quantity of electricity generated or consumed by it. I think this is a very good barometer of the development of a country. One is very grateful if one considers the fact that South Africa, seen in relation to the rest of Africa, for example, represents approximately 5 per cent of Africa, both in area and in population, but that 57 per cent of all the electricity generated in Africa at the present time is generated by South Africa. When this consumption is added, that percentage will probably be much greater. We are of course handicapped in our generation of electricity by our chronic shortage of water. This scheme is affording us a good opportunity of overcoming that shortage.

The hon. the Leader of the Opposition asked me about terrorism. I think I can give the Committee the assurance that the progress made in fighting terrorism in Southern Africa is as good as can be expected under the circumstances. I am satisfied with the progress which has been made in all territories in this regard. I can very definitely give the Committee the assurance that South Africa herself, as far as her own immediate borders are concerned, is equipped as well as possible to fight terrorism. I want to give the Committee the assurance that we shall deal quickly and effectively with any possible attack that may occur. I am not apologizing for the fact that I have issued instructions to the Police to deal with these terrorists as one deals with an enemy in time of war. This is no child’s play. These people come here to kill innocent women and children. I am again amazed at the fact that States from which one would expect a different attitude are granting direct and indirect support to such terrorist organizations. Terrorism is like measles; it is all very well to give the disease to someone else, but tomorrow or the day after you are going to catch the disease yourself. It is something which no state in the world can condone or support, because if it does that, the time will come when it will itself become the victim of that same phenomenon. That is very clear to me.

I foreshadowed in my New Year message that the first half of the year would present us with many problems. I was right in my view in that regard. I expressed the opinion some time ago that events would succeed one another very rapidly in the international world and that these events would have their repercussions on South Africa. I think hon. members will agree with me that I was right in my view in this regard as well. I also said in my New Year message, and this is still my opinion to-day, that in spite of the problems with which we shall be faced in the next few months, there will be signs in the second half of the year that the tide is turning. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that all people and all nations have a basic sense of fairness. The Afro-Asian states and other communist-controlled and communist-inspired quarters are busy shocking this basic sense of fairness up to the point where resistance will develop. This is my belief.

I conclude by once again saving the following to the Committee: We have many unofficial friends. There must be no doubt about that. But in the last resort we and we alone will have to look after and protect our interests. But whatever happens. South Africa will withstand the pressure. Therein lies our strength. Any country of lesser calibre than ours—and this we can say for ourselves without laying ourselves open to the criticism that we are arrogant—would not have been able to have withstood this pressure over many years. One is very grateful for that, because in spite of this threat one is every day struck by the confidence existing in South Africa, a confidence which is reflected by people who move in the innermost circles of peoples and nations. Being threatened and confidence, as I have said on a previous occasion, are not twin brothers. The fact that this confidence in South Africa exists, so much confidence that the hon. the Minister of Finance is almost embarrassed by it, not only makes one feel grateful, but also makes one feel determined to keep this part of the world free and secure. South Africa’s policy will bear fruit and has already borne fruit, its policy to act correctly and with dignity, but at the same time with absolute firmness, in the international world at all times.

Vote put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 5,—Police, R72,130,000:

I only rise to announce that, as is customary, the Deputy Minister of Police, to whom I am deeply indebted, particularly for what he has done over the past few months, will take charge of this Vote. I also rise to take leave officially on this occasion of the present Commissioner of Police, Gen. Keevy, a police officer with whom I worked together very intimately over many years and for whom I have the greatest admiration and respect. You know the circumstances. I venture to suggest that it seldom happens that a minister and the head of a department are called upon to work together so intimately at all times, virtually day and night, as was the case between Gen. Keevy and me during the unrest we experienced in South Africa. This police officer has meant a great deal to South Africa, and to the Police Force in particular. This is the last time that he will be attending the discussions on this Vote as Commissioner of Police, and accordingly I wish to avail myself of this opportunity to express my thanks and appreciation to him. As a matter of fact, I think that I may convey the thanks and appreciation of the entire Committee to this loyal officer.

Hear, hear!

He will be succeeded by the second-in-charge, Lt.-Gen. Gous, an officer who has rendered distinguished services for many years. Unfortunately he, too, will retire shortly, not long after Gen. Keevy, but I am grateful that he will be able to occupy the post of Commissioner, even though it will only be for a short while. In order to eliminate any possible misunderstanding or speculation, I wish to announce at this stage already that immediately after the retirement of Lt.-Gen. Gous. Lt.-Gen. Van den Berg will succeed him. In conclusion I once again wish to express my thanks and appreciation to the present Commissioner of Police, Gen. Keevy, who has occupied this position with distinction for many years.

Mr. Chairman, I ask for the privilege of the half hour.

I should like to react immediately to the remarks of the hon. the Prime Minister confirming the Press report which we have received about the imminent retirement of Gen. Keevy. This side of the House would like to record its appreciation for his long and distinguished service in the Police. He assumed duties as Commissioner of Police in 1962 and during his period of office he has always been accessible and courteous whenever we had to approach him on matters affecting his department. At the same time we should like to extend to Lt.-Gen. Gous congratulations on his pending promotion and to wish him well during his term of office. I think it is necessary that I should take this opportunity of acknowledging the indebtedness of all South Africans to the services rendered by members of our Police Force in general during the last year. Their duties are widespread with their general duty, the investigation of crime. Unfortunately, in recent times, they have been confronted with new problems and new dangers, namely the seeking out and eradication of infiltrators and terrorists from over our borders and that of South West Africa. They have even had to seek and deal with him outside our borders in Rhodesia. The hon. the Prime Minister has paid tribute to the Police and the manner in which they have discharged this task. We would like to associate ourselves with that tribute to the Police for the manner in which they are dealing with this particular problem. We note also that a number of the members of the Police Force, both White and non-White, have lost their lives in the course of their duty during the year under review. We also note that a number of them have received decorations for distinguished and meritorious service in the Police Force. In the field of crime detection I believe that we are fortunate in this country in having a criminal investigation department which has maintained a more than satisfactory degree of efficiency. One notes in the Police report before us that Mr. Justice Hiemstra praised the Police for their efficient action which he said compared favourably with the best in the world in dealing with the Glaser abduction case in the Transvaal. Obviously there are exceptions in any group. Army, and in every force of men. There are those who are over-zealous, those who are convicted of offences, and those who have not behaved themselves in a manner fitting and proper for membership of the Police Force. Their 1966 figures which we have before us are disturbing, but I do not think that they are unnecessary, unusually or alarmingly high.

I only wish that we could be equally appreciative of the manner in which this force has been directed and managed by the Government. Year in and year out there have been complaints about the delay in publication of the Commissioner’s annual report.

The excuses offered by the hon. the Deputy Minister in the past make it clear that the delays are not attributable to the Police Department. We have had assurances year after year that steps would be taken to have the reports tabled timeously. I do believe that it is time that these pious assurances of the Deputy Minister were translated into some action. In 1966 the Deputy Minister gave the assurance that the question of earlier publication would enjoy his attention. In 1967 he gave the same assurance and announced that to overcome the delays due to the compilation of statistics by the Bureau of Statistics, the report would cover the year ending 30th June each year instead of the current year. He added that a computer had been installed and he said that this would possibly bring about an improvement. Sir, we are still awaiting that improvement. To-day we have available the report up to the end of June, 1966. This does cause inconvenience, and it provides some evidence of Government inefficiency in dealing with this long outstanding problem. The result is that numerous questions have to be placed on the Order Paper to elicit up-to-date information that would have been available if the reports were tabled timeously. I hope that the Deputy Minister will take some effective steps outside the Police Department regarding his colleagues to ensure that the causes for these delays are eradicated.

I want to refer now to the Estimates and draw attention to certain details and further matters I wish to raise with the hon. the Minister or his Deputy. There are many changes in the establishment which are apparent from the Estimates now before us. The major changes indicate an increase of 795 posts, and of these 129 will be in the commissioned ranks. The commissioned ranks now appear to constitute approximately 4 per cent of the total Force. Further, it will be noted that of the total force of non-commissioned ranks, namely 31,925. 53 per cent are white persons and 47 per cent are non-Whites. The percentage of personnel engaged in administrative duties is 2 per cent of the total of 33,163 of all ranks, both White and non-White. These figures, generally speaking, appear to indicate a reasonable relationship between commissioned and other ranks in the Force. There is a fair but not entirely adequate ratio between the total strength of the Force and the total population. One notes that there has been an upgrading of commissioned posts. I believe that the time has now arrived, if it has not passed, where those who bear the heat and the burden of police duties, i.e. those in the non-commissioned ranks, should have their positions considered for upgrading. As I have said, the percentages of the White and the non-White officials in the non-commissioned ranks are 53 per cent for the Whites and 47 per cent for the non-Whites. I do not believe that this is entirely satisfactory. I know that the Deputy Minister shares this view and regrets that there are so many vacancies in the Coloured establishment. He said so during this Session. Sir, there are reasons for this. After all, the Department of Defence has experienced very little or no difficulty in recruiting Coloureds for the Cape Corps and the Navy. According to the recent reports, there is enthusiastic registration for the Coloured cadet movement which is in the course of establishment by the Department of Coloured Affairs. The responsibility is on the Deputy Minister to find and eliminate the causes which are adversely affecting particularly Coloured recruitment in the Police Force. I wish to suggest some reasons for this which have become apparent from my own personal investigations.

The first is the question of salary. The Coloured constable who commences on the salary scale of R576 per annum moves up over a period of 14 years to a maximum of R1,320. This means that the Coloured constable receiving regular annual increments in his 14th year reaches this maximum. The white constable, on the other hand, exceeds this figure in his fifth year, when he receives a salary of R1,380. In his 15th year he receives double what the Coloured constable receives after 14 years of service, namely R2,640, while the Coloured constable has reached his maximum of R1,320. The highest rate of pay which can be reached by the Coloured constable in the Police Force, with all the promotions open to him, is R1,968. I want to assure the hon. the Deputy Minister, if he is not already aware of it, that this differentiation is a serious deterrent to recruitment of Coloured persons into the Police Force.

The second factor which is a deterrent to recruiting is the inability of the Coloured man to obtain commissioned or equivalent rank in the Police Force. In 1966 there were 31 police stations, according to the Commissioner’s report, staffed entirely by non-Whites, yet not one of those non-white persons was able to obtain the equivalent of commissioned rank in the Police Force. Now I know that there are difficulties. Badges of rank demand compliments to the badges being worn, and while I do not believe that it is reasonable, one must accept that resentment might arise because of those necessary compliments to a badge of rank. But has the Minister not considered some alternative whereby these Coloured persons can get their promotion? After all, this Government makes a fetish of separate development. Surely they should be able to find some suitable solution. We are told over and over again that the sky is the limit for development in separate compartments, and that sky should be the limit for promotion in the Police Force for Coloureds. It is possible, I believe, to have a parallel system of promotion. I wonder whether the Deputy Minister has given consideration to the establishment of a parallel system based possibly on the American or the British idea, whereby you depart from Army ranking and give these Coloured people the title of sub-inspectors, etc., with badges of rank equivalent to the American stripes or shoulder epaulettes instead of the ordinary Army badges of rank. In that way one could build up a Coloured Police Force, giving these men some opportunity, some ambition and some chance of getting to the highest possible rank within the Coloured section of our Police Force. I hope the Minister will react to that suggestion as a method of relieving or eliminating this cause for frustration amongst the Coloureds.

I now want to turn to the question of crimes involving violence, assaults, robberies, bag-snatching, pick-pocketing and the like. We are only too well aware in this Committee of the experiences of three hon. members of this House recently, pointing to the prevalence of this type of crime. We had the instances of the hon. members for Outeniqua and Prieska who were subjected to losses through pick-pocketing and the recent more serious matter of the attack on the hon. member for Yeoville when he was knifed in a built-up area, the residential area of Rondebosch. I want to say immediately that I believe that these crimes of violence are deprecated by the Coloured people as much as by the Whites. These Coloured people are themselves subjected to these crimes of violence in their own areas and townships. They have in fact established their own auxiliary police in various townships to deal with this particular element amongst their people. In the Wynberg area, according to information given by the Deputy Minister in reply to a question, the number of crimes of violence increased during the last five years from 4,109 per annum to 4,943 per annum.

I believe that the effect of two governmental innovations in the conduct of the Police Force requires further examination in the light of these facts and in the light of these occurrences. These two innovations, I believe, have contributed greatly to the increase in this type of crime. The first one is the centralization, if I might call it that, of police stations, stations covering a larger area than previously and involving the closing down of a number of what were termed suburban stations. This matter has been raised before. In 1966 the hon. the Deputy Minister was warned by hon. members on this side of the House that we believed that that was an unsatisfactory, an undesirable innovation because it removed the presence of the police further away from so many more people. The second innovation which I believe needs examination is the substitution of mobile patrol vans for foot patrols. As regards the Cape Town area, for instance, I was shocked to hear in answer to a question which I put to the hon. the Deputy Minister on the 12th March this year, that the total number of Coloured constables engaged on foot patrol in the greater Cape Town area totalled only 13. He told me that there were two in the whole of the Green Point/Sea Point area, two in Central Cape Town, nine in Athlone and not one foot patrol policeman in Wynberg or Simonstown. Sir, this is asking for trouble. There is no substitute for the good old-fashioned bobby on the beat. These crimes of bag-snatching and robbery will continue as long as there are no foot patrols in our streets. I want to give an example, Sir. Recently in the Green Point and Sea Point area, following on reports that there was unruly conduct amongst Coloureds, I went on a Saturday morning to one of these places where they say that the Coloureds gather outside bottle stores and so on. The reports in the Press were correct. There were six or eight Coloured persons standing around drinking in the street. I went to the shop next door and telephoned the police station. The police acted promptly. The patrol van was on its way immediately. I stood there and waited to see what would happen. The patrol van got into the traffic on the Main Road, Sea Point. On the top of the van there is a blue light flashing on and off, and although the police had done their best under the procedure which now requires them to go in a patrol van, by the time they reached that corner there was not a Coloured man in sight. They had all seen the van in the slow-moving traffic approaching the scene. Sir, one or two foot patrols would eradicate that sort of nuisance and the dangers to the law-abiding citizens which exist in so many parts of the city at the present time. The hon. the Minister said that it was intended to increase the number of Coloured policemen on foot patrol. I ask him to get on with it. He said that on the 12th March. Let him get on with it. Thirteen for Greater Cape Town is serving no purpose at all. Put them in Adderley Street; put them in the main thoroughfares of the cities in which there are Coloured communities, and this bag-snatching, this interference and unruly behaviour will, I believe, disappear in a very short time.

Sir, we cannot allow the impression to get abroad that crimes of the nature which I have mentioned can be committed and that the culprits can get away with it. The problem is simply that the white people cannot police the whole of the country. Twenty per cent of the population of South Africa cannot provide the police force for a 100 per cent of the population, just as in industry the white people cannot provide the employee force for the whole of industry. There is an urgent need for radical readjustment. We have at present 1,287 Coloureds on the establishment; this represents .8 per 1,000 of the Coloured population. We have 11,878 Bantu on the establishment. This represents .8 per 1,000 of the Bantu population. Sir, these figures must be doubled; they must be more than doubled. The overall picture in 1966 was 1.61 per 1,000 of the population. A grave responsibility rests on the Deputy Minister to see that this position is rectified and that the necessary opportunities are granted so that the non-Whites can carry their proper share of the burden of policing South Africa. I believe that the Minister must take these steps. He must recreate the presence of the police. Suburban police stations reasonably close to each other serve as a healthy deterrent to crime. The knowledge that a policeman on beat may appear around the corner at any moment is a healthy deterrent to crime. Sir, the hon. the Minister will complain that there are vacancies and that he has not been able to fill them. Cannot he then look into the question of the paper work that is being done by the police force? I would like to draw his attention to the schedule of prosecutions appearing in the 1965-’66 report, ft is a very interesting schedule, and I presume that the same pattern is still standing to-day. The number of offences, i.e. crimes other than infringement of regulations, etc., which were brought to court totalled 334,161, but infringements of regulations which had to be brought to court by the police reached the staggering total of 1,310,342, a million more cases than what we describe as normal offences. Sir, that number included 437,106 Bantu tax offences, and breaches of regulations regarding documentation—almost half a million. Also included in that was a total of 322,851 motor offences which had to be investigated by the police. Surely some steps can be taken to relieve the police of the responsibility for all these motor offences, or at any rate, to relieve them of the documentation, the taking of measurements, the drawing of plans, the preparing of statements, the attending in court, in cases which are basically civil disputes between two people who have had a collision. I believe that some steps must be taken whereby all this time-absorbing work in connection with accidents can be limited to those cases in which bodily injury is caused by the accident.

There is another sphere in which I believe there should be some improvement. It is a serious condemnation of our Department of Health that the police have to house and control mental patients. This goes on year after year. This procedure seems to carry on, and I do hope that the hon. the Deputy Minister will be able, not only for the convenience of the police, but in the interest of the patients themselves, to prevail upon the hon. the Minister of Health to take over this responsibility in his Department and not to leave it in the hands of the police.

Finally, I would like to refer to other matters which need attention and which can release the police for what I might describe as pure police duties. On page 16 of the Commissioner’s report he refers to extraneous duties and he says this—

Surely, Sir, this is a fantastic amount of time which is required of the police at a time when we know that there is a certain amount of lawlessness growing within this country. I do not say this lawlessness is out of all proportion to what is happening in other countries, but we must take notice of it. Moreover, we have the dangers and responsibilities of the police as was outlined by the hon. the Prime Minister this morning when dealing with terrorist activities, which may require even more attention in the days ahead.

I want to conclude by appealing to the Minister to give urgent attention to the question of establishing a sufficiently strong force to control these crimes. It must be sufficiently large so that all the various race groups or nations, or whatever the Minister wants to call them, can play their part in the composition and set-up of the force. He should do something to relieve them from being involved in minor transgressions of regulations and minor motor offences. As I said at the outset, their duties cover a wide and frequently very dangerous field. The force is entitled to this relief, and a continuous review of all aspects of their conditions of service and the facilities provided for them.

Mr. Chairman, will you also grant me the privilege of paying tribute to Gen. Keevy, before I make a few remarks on what was said by the hon. member for Green Point? I think the past decade is characterized by the co-operation between him and the hon. the Prime Minister in safeguarding our country, South Africa, against Communism. That probably is the most outstanding feature of his term of office as the chief of the Force. In our own modest way we want to pay tribute to him for what he has done for our people and for our country.

Allow me to say a few words about his successor as well. With your permission, Sir, I should like to make a few personal remarks. Approximately 35 years ago he and I were both students at the same university—that was during the years of the depression. He obtained his degree, but as a result of the depression he was unable to continue his law studies, and he then joined the Police Force at the very bottom rung. Virtually the only avenue of employment open to our Afrikaner lads in those days was the Public Service—if one was able to get a position because there was a waiting list for positions. I want to pay tribute to him for the success he has achieved in his career. He climbed from the bottom rung of the ladder to the top rung in the Police Force. This shows of what mettle an Afrikaner lad is made.

The hon. member for Green Point said quite a few things in appreciation of the police and also made a number of good suggestions to which all of us can subscribe. But I think he also made a few unreasonable statements, and he will not hold it against me for saying so. I am referring to his complaint about the delay in issuing the report of the Commissioner. The hon. member should have received this report during the past recess. I want to remind the hon. member that this report was made available to members during the recess, i.e. approximately one year subsequent to the period covered by the report, and not only when it was tabled this session. This report covers the period up to June, 1966, and the hon. member received the report approximately one year later. I myself am the chairman of a public body, namely the Bantu Affairs Commission, and we too have to submit annual reports. Experience has proved that irrespective of how soon we start with the preparation of the report, a long period expires before the report becomes available. We start preparing the report as soon as the year to be covered by the report has ended but by the time it comes back from the translators and; the Government Printer, nine months have quite easily elapsed before the report becomes available. The police have additional difficulties in connection with their report. They are dependent on the courts for many of the figures they have to use. The reports of the courts cover the period up to the end of December. The police have to process many of those figures because the year covered by their report ends in June, i.e. the middle of the year, and this too takes considerable time. Consequently I am of the opinion that this report has been made available to us exceptionally soon, and that it was somewhat unfair to have leveled that particular charge.

The hon. member also expressed himself very strongly about “the bobby on the beat”. I do not know whether he was inspired by British prejudice in this regard, but to me that appears to be the case. He is of the opinion that the London bobby on the beat is someone so outstanding that we have to follow his example here in South Africa. I think the hon. member is overrating the bobby on the beat. In view of modern developments I think it is no longer necessary to have that kind of patrolling as we did have in the past. I should like to refer the hon. member to page 13 of this report where he will find statistics relating to the mechanical branch and radio communication. I should like to quote a few figures in this regard. Approximately 521,000 messages were broadcast which resulted in 33,000 arrests. In the course of ordinary patrols, these are mechanical patrols of course, 150,000 arrests were made. The position is not so bad at all. Therefore the hon. member cannot allege that this system is not effective. The opposite is true. I think the use of vehicles and the patrolling done by radio-equipped vehicles are much more effective than the bobby on the beat. Let us take a bobby on the beat in Adderley Street. Something may be happening at the top end of the street when he is making his turnabout at the bottom end, and by the time he arrives at the scene the culprit has disappeared. He will definitely not be able to reach that point before the vehicle does. Consequently I think the hon. member has not been quite fair in his criticism. I think he should reconsider this matter.

As far as this matter is concerned, there is one point about which I agree with the hon. member, and that is that I should like to see more use being made of dogs when patrols are carried out. If there is one thing non-Whites really fear, it is the police dog. As far as the bobby on the beat is concerned, I think it should rather be the “dog on the beat” accompanied by the bobby. If we could have this kind of patrol service, it would be much more effective. I believe that this will be the case because skollies, in particular, are very scared of these dogs. For that reason I have some sympathy with the hon. member as regards his request that we must place a bobby on the beat, but that bobby must be accompanied by his dog. The bobby should really have four legs. As I say, the non-Whites really fear these animals. Experience has taught us that Bantu as well as Coloureds greatly fear these dogs.

I also want to pay tribute to-day to the security branch of our police. You will recall, Sir, that when this Vote was under discussion in this House some years ago, the United Party was on its hind legs and constantly criticized the security police. According to them that was the S.S. division of the Nazi party that was in power. According to them the secret police were much worse than the secret police in Nazi Germany in days gone by. Those were the reproaches that came from the opposite side of this House. Therefore I am very pleased to-day to have heard from the lips of the hon. member for Green Point that he too has some praise for the security police whom they condemned to such an extent at that time. They regarded the security police with suspicion, so much so that their criticism was taken from this House to create some suspicion towards the security branch amongst the public as well. Now we have made so much progress that the hon. member for Green Point quoted here to-day what Mr. Justice Hiemstra had said. The report reads as follows—

I am pleased that we have at least succeeded in converting the United Party to such an extent in this respect as well that it now draws attention to the fact that the security branch of the Police Force has been rendering a very essential service in South Africa. I want to refer to this Report again. I want to draw your attention to the fact that this Report covers quite a number of sensational cases and occurrences. Special mention was made here of the illegal Communist Party. In this report special mention is made of Abram Fischer who was arrested and put in his place and of Fred Carneson who was also arrested and put in his place. Mention is also made of the investigations into the Paarl and Langa killings, and special mention is made of the Glazer abduction.

But at present the police are also rendering another particularly important service in manning the outer defences of South Africa. Last week a group of Members of Parliament undertook a tour to the borders of South West Africa. There too we met this branch of the security police. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in regard to this question of the inability of the Police to control crime such as that mentioned by the hon. member for Green Point, I want to raise an issue which I have raised before. I trust that this time the hon. the Deputy Minister does not have a dossier on me, at the ready. I refer to the amount of time devoted by the Police to pass raids and matters of that nature because I am firmly of the opinion that if the Police devoted their attention to the more serious crime in South Africa, such as the assaults, robberies … [Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, may, I have the protection of the Chair because I should like to continue with my speech. I refer to the serious crimes such as assaults and robberies, not only in the white areas where crime is serious enough, but also in the townships where law-abiding African and Coloured citizens, and I might mention the Indians at Lenasia particularly, live in terror of their lives and find it very difficult to step out of doors at night. They require protection.

I should like to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister whether the Standing Orders as far as the pass laws are concerned have now been widely circulated throughout the country. The hon. the Deputy Minister will remember that I raised this issue with him by way of a question earlier this session. I put that question as a result of the comments of a magistrate about the number of cases he dealt with—I think it was 118 in one day in the magistrate’s court at Fordsburg. Of the 118 people who had appeared before him, 58 were remanded, 22 were cautioned and discharged, 12 cases were withdrawn, and 26 were found guilty and convicted. He also said that of the 118 cases 36 should never have been brought before the court with the consequent loss of working time and wages. I asked the hon. the Minister about this question of the Standing Orders as far as pass arrests were concerned. I am glad to say that the Commissioner of Police with whom I have taken issue on many occasions in the past, did in fact act as a result of the magistrate’s statements although the hon. the Deputy Minister simply told me that the existing Standing Orders were sufficient.

At this stage I should like to join in wishing the Commissioner of Police a happy and healthy retirement. The Commissioner of Police did apparently thereupon call some kind of conference. I understand that since then some effort has been made to instruct the policemen in their duties and responsibilities as far as the pass laws are concerned. The hon. the Deputy Minister would not give me any information as to what the Standing Orders were. Why, I do not know, because subsequently excerpts from the Standing Orders were published in the Press. It would appear that Africans who are arrested under the pass laws should be given the opportunity of proving that they are in fact in possession of a proper registration book and that they might have omitted to carry this registration book on their person. This can be ascertained either by phoning the employer by whom the man says he is employed or by finding out whether the registration book is in order, even if it is at the man’s home. Why was the hon. the Deputy Minister so shy about giving me this information? Surely it would have been to the benefit of everybody concerned, namely the Police, the magistrates whose time is wasted in dealing with these cases which should never have come before them, and the Africans concerned, who are of course the chief sufferers in such cases, because they are kept in a police cell and taken to court. They then lose at least two or three days’ pay. Surely the widest possible publicity should be given to such Standing Orders which give a man some opportunity of knowing what his rights are in this regard.

Is there not a law in this regard?

There may be a law, but my point is that when I asked the Deputy Minister to tell me what the Standing Orders were, he should have said that in view of the complaints of the magistrate he would deal with the matter. He knows that in one year alone a total of 12,266 Africans were charged with not being in possession of the necessary papers and of these only approximately 6,000 were convicted. This is in respect of the Fordsburg magistrate’s court only. Most of these people would probably never have come to court at all if the junior policemen carrying out these arrests had been instructed that they were not to arrest and keep people in police cells unless they had been given the opportunity of showing whether or not they were in possession of the proper registration books.

You might as well change the law then.

No, it is not a question of changing the law, though I would like to. I do not think that the hon. Deputy Minister was in this House when I raised this matter years ago with one of his predecessors. I think I raised the matter with Mr. Swart when he was Minister of Justice. That hon. Minister did not react in an indignant way at that time. He agreed that a large number of people were being arrested under the pass laws who probably need not have been arrested at all. He undertook to see that every policeman was instructed as to the new methods which should be applied by the Police. That was soon after the Sharpeville incident. I cannot see any reason why the hon. the Deputy Minister should be annoyed if I raise the matter again now.

I am very amiably disposed to the hon. member.

I am amiably disposed to the hon. the Deputy Minister as well. Let us all therefore go ahead in this happy friendly spirit. What I want him to do is to try to get the Commissioner of Police to continue with his efforts to divert the activities of the Police from pass raids, which in many cases result in hundreds of people being dragged into the police vans and spending nights in the prison cells before being brought before the magistrates and Bantu Commissioners when the Police could be devoting themselves to attacking the really serious crimes in this country.

Now I want to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister whether he will please institute some sort of inquiry—and I make no accusations now although I must say that I have my suspicions—into the manner in which the newspaper Dagbreek en Landstem obtained confidential information about the financial status of Dr. Raymond Hoffenberg who recently left South Africa on an exit permit. I raise this issue because I know that it is the custom that when a person leaves South Africa permanently whether on a passport or an exit permit, he is asked to give a statement of his assets to the Reserve Bank. That is highly confidential information which the Reserve Bank shows to nobody whatever. The only exception is that, with special permission, the Police have access to these records. Now, Sir, how is it that that information—I do not know how accurate it is—giving details of Dr. Hoffenberg’s financial status finds its way into a newspaper like Dagbreek.

Perhaps he gave it to them himself.

No, it is highly unlikely that he would give this information. I think that we can discard that possibility. There are only two other possibilities. The one is that the accountant who dealt with his affairs could have passed this information on to the newspaper, but I think that the hon. the Deputy Minister will agree with me that that is also highly unlikely. It is highly unlikely that a professional man will disclose any information relating to the private affairs of his client. I am absolutely certain that the officials of the Reserve Bank did not leak any such information to the Press either. I sincerely hope that nobody in the Police Force has done that. I do think that this is a matter for inquiry. I think that the hon. the Deputy Minister should protect citizens against information of this kind being published in the newspapers because, as I say, this is information of a highly confidential nature. The only people other than the Reserve Bank, who have access to this information, are the Police who by special permission may be allowed to look at these accounts. I do not know if they looked at these accounts and the Reserve Bank’s statement, but I think that it is a matter that should be investigated.

Can you give me the date of that newspaper?

Yes. I will send the newspaper over to the hon. the Deputy Minister when I resume my seat. I think this is something that is really disgraceful, particularly as this article was published after Dr. Hoffenberg had left the country. He is unable to defend himself in any case, because anything he says may not be quoted in South Africa. Incidentally, Dr. Hoffenberg seems very well off and there is an insinuation in this newspaper as to where he has got his money from. He happens to be well to do, as I personally know.

Do you read Dag-breek?

I am a regular reader of Dagbreek, for my sins, I might add. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, to-day we witnessed a very strange phenomenon. I nearly believed that the hon. member for Houghton was trying to be “sweet reasonableness itself” during the ten minutes at her disposal. At the end of her speech, however, she raised the matter of this newspaper report. She said she did not know whether the facts were correct, in other words, she has no instructions from the person concerned to raise the matter here, and what is more, to do so on the Police Vote. Does she not think that we may leave it to Dr. Hoffenberg’s legal representatives to take the necessary steps, if he wants to do so, and leave it at that? Is that a matter which belongs here? The hon. member made an insinuation here to which I want to object very strongly. Many people, apart from officials, could have caused these particulars to leak out, if that was the hon. member’s insinuation. She raised the matter on the Police Vote, however, as though the police were the ones who had done so. During the discussion of this Vote last year the hon. member—and I am now going to quote what was said by the hon. member herself and she cannot say that I am being unfair—stated what her policy was in connection with the police. She stated that her policy in regard to the Police Vote was not to pay any tributes, but only to air grievances, and to present a sinister image of the police to the outside public, ft is recorded in Hansard. To-day she again tried in a very sinister way to create yet another sinister image.

The hon. member also told us about the so-called raids and these minor crimes. This matter was discussed here last year. Her objection is to these large-scale investigations which are carried out in certain areas to clear them of potential criminals—the very people who are the potential source of serious crimes—and to remove those people from those areas. Loafers who do not have the right to be in a certain area and who are without documents, are people who do not have jobs. People who do not have jobs have no income and they become the thieves and the assailants. But in spite of these facts the hon. member objected to the police taking these preventative measures.

I readily want to admit that it is not our task in discussing this Vote merely to sing the praises of the police. I concede that a discussion of this Vote affords an opportunity for criticism, provided that it is sound criticism. And therefore I want to associate myself with what the hon. member for Heilbron said when he stated that we had received quite a number of practical suggestions from the hon. member for Green Point. Some of his suggestions were less practical but his criticism was nevertheless constructive.

Having seen the Police Report, I want to make a completely objective analysis of what we have before us. I want to make an analysis, not only of the debit side, but also of the credit side, so that we may see the matter in its proper perspective. I want to test the Police Force and those things which fall under this Vote and Department against the central requirement, and that is the requirement of efficient functioning. In order to determine that, I have to measure the police in terms of results. I am not saying that they are perfect, but reference has already been made here to what Mr. Justice Hiemstra said in one case, and what he said applies, in my opinion, to the entire Police Force in general. We can only measure the striking achievements of the police if we measure them in terms of comparable figures and comparable achievements. We find that the figure relating to the successful solution of all crimes in South Africa (i.e. the percentage of reported crimes) remained at approximately 90 per cent per annum for the past four years. The figure relating to the successful solution of offences, the serious crimes, remained at approximately 77 per cent per annum. That is the position, in spite of the vastness of our country and in spite of our heterogeneous population. But hon. members will ask me: Is this achievement something special? How does that compare with other comparable countries? Mr. Chairman, I think it will be very enlightening to hon. members if you will allow me to quote the following few figures. Remember that South Africa maintains a steady figure of approximately 90 per cent of successes (sometimes higher) in the solution of all crimes and 77 per cent in the solution of offences. I take the same year, namely 1964-’65, for South Africa and other countries. We find that the figure relating to the success achieved by the New York police in solving all crimes was. 60 per cent only, while that of Washington was 48 per cent. The figure for the London Metropolitan Police was 22 per cent only. The figures for New Zealand were 61 per cent and 59 per cent, for Western Australia 71 per cent and 66 per cent, and for Southern Australia 77 per cent and for Rhodesia 76 per cent and 77 per cent for all crimes. We are now beginning to get some idea of the achievements of this Force, measured in terms of comparable Police Forces elsewhere in the world, and that in spite of the heterogenity of our population and the tremendous distances with which we have to contend.

If we now turn to page 19 of this Report and analyze the figures we find there, it strikes one that this Police Force was so thorough in its work that 72 per cent of prosecutions succeeded. In other words, the preparatory work was very thorough. But what is even more striking, is that the number of convictions in respect of prosecutions relating to the safety of the state and good order amounted to 75 per cent. All these things testify to efficient police action, sound investigation and no precipitate action.

Hon. members may perhaps put the further question whether we do not have too many policemen in this country. How does the Police Force of this country compare as regards the question put by the hon. member for Green Point? He asked, “Are we under-policed or over-policed?” It is interesting to note that the latest figure for South Africa is 1.79 per 1,000 inhabitants. For the past three years the figures were 1.70, 1.69 and 1.79. What is the position in other countries of the world? These figures will interest hon. members. In New Zealand the Police Force comprises 1.02 per 1,000 of the population, while the figures are 1.84 for Western Australia and 1.95 for Southern Australia. In other words, the South African average represents a very good average as regards these comparable countries. It also strikes one that the average in Washington is 3.92 per 1,000 of the population, while it is 2.37 in London, and that their achievements, in spite of this high police figure per 1,000 of the population, are much smaller as is evident from the percentage of crimes solved, to which I have just referred hon. members. Now the achievements of our police strike us anew.

I have tried to make an objective analysis of this Report and matters which flow from that. When we make an analysis like this we must, in spite of the matters which we feel justify criticism and about which we are concerned (we always want something better) such as those raised by the hon. member for Green Point, take off our hats to and salute this Force for the services it has rendered.

I want to refer to page 11 of the Report in particular, where we find an exposition of the other activities of our Police Force. I take one example, namely the South African Criminal Bureau. At the top of page 11 we find the following exceptional statistics: Of the 3,094 persons connected with 6,326 cases by means of fingerprints, 2,513 were convicted. This means that this branch of the Criminal Bureau achieved success in 80 per cent of the cases. I do not want to deal fully with this matter, but I do want to refer to the tracking dogs and the patrol dogs and say that their story is a fantastic story of success.

In conclusion I want to say that in discussing the police we are not only dealing with the first line of defence against crime but also against terrorism. I think this Committee may take cognizance with a great deal of satisfaction of the Report which was tabled in this House and of the facts which became evident from the analysis. We are therefore able to pay tribute on behalf of the nation to these men in all sincerity.

I should like to associate myself with what was said by the hon. the Prime Minister as well as by the hon. member for Green Point in wishing General Keevy everything of the best on his retirement. If I have to evaluate the position, the most outstanding thing to me about the Police Force over the past 10 or 12 years is the fact that the esteem of the ordinary policeman in this country has risen higher than what it was a number of years ago, particularly when I was a child. There was a time, not so many years ago, when the police were accused of many malpractices, and sometimes with a considerable amount of justification. I must say that in my opinion the general public to-day believes, and this is in fact the position, that there is more discipline and order in the Police Force and that we have a Police Force to-day of which we may be proud. I think General Keevy has made a major contribution in this respect. I wish him everything of the best for the future. I cannot allow this occasion to pass, of course, without addressing a word of welcome to General Gous. We wish him a successful term of office as the chief of the Police Force. The hon. member for Heilbron said that the two of them attended the same university. I have not had that pleasure, but I know the family of which he is a member, and I can say with pride that my family and his family did their duty together during the Boer War.

It was not the Boer War, but the English War.

The hon. member should take care, because the Ossewa-Brandwag gave him a sound whipping during the war. He should not always interrupt one by squabbling. I say I have the highest regard for the Gous family, because I know that General Gous’ father went through hard times during the years of depression and that he is a man of character who is held in the highest esteem in the region from which he comes, and we are proud of the fact that his son has been able to progress to the highest rung in the Police Force in this country.

In the first place, I should like to associate myself with what the hon. member for Green Point said in connection with Coloureds in the Police Force. You know, Sir, it has become a tradition in this country to ask for more rights and privileges for the Coloured community on every occasion, and I have no objection to that. If I can help it, I myself do not often participate in Coloured debates, but I have no objection to those requests. But when we speak of more rights and privileges, we must at the same time bear in mind the increased responsibilities which that section of the community has to take on its shoulders. I wonder whether the Coloured community is doing its duty towards its own people by joining the Police Force. It is all very well to speak about salaries. I shall always agree to better salaries being paid to any police officer, whether he is white, black or brown. But there are other members of the Police Force who do not receive any kind of remuneration, irrespective of colour, and they are the police reservists. I obtained certain information from the Department, because I wanted to ascertain to what extent the Coloured community was reacting to the call to do its duty towards its own people by maintaining law and order within their own communities. At present one cannot open any newspaper without reading that the decent section of the Coloured community in places such as Athlone, Bishop Lavis and Bonteheuwel, is complaining about a reign of terror being conducted by a lot of skollies and thugs who are running wild. What is the Coloured community itself doing about that? How many police reservists are forthcoming from Athlone? There are 80. In Epping there are 19, and in Bishop Lavis only 15, in Retreat, 10, Bellville, 2, and Windermere, 50. These people too have an obligation to maintain law and order amongst their own people, and I think it will be a good thing if the Minister were to decide, as a matter of policy, to man police stations in Coloured areas with Coloureds only, so that they may look after their own people and so that it will no longer be necessary to send a white policeman to stop Coloureds from assaulting and murdering and robbing other Coloureds. Give these people rights and privileges, but also oblige them as citizens to maintain order within their own areas. In the course of many years I have often seen bystanders abusing a police officer in Cape Town by calling him a “Boer” when he has to arrest a Coloured for being under the influence of liquor or for having knifed another Coloured. I think most policemen have already heard that word. They say, “Kick that Boer”. This is an old saying. It is a very well-known term amongst the skolly element in the Cape. The white policeman has acquired a bad reputation because he is expected to maintain order and to stop Coloureds from killing other Coloureds. The time has now arrived for these people to accept the responsibility of maintaining law and order amongst their own people. I know that there are many Coloureds who are decent citizens of this country and who will be prepared to do so. I do not think that it is unreasonable to appeal to them to join the Police Force in order to maintain law and order amongst their own people. In time to come increasing demands will be made on the police—I hope that that will not be necessary but from the warnings given by the Prime Minister this afternoon it appears that it will be necessary—to do other essential police work, and thát is to deal with saboteurs and infiltrators. One feels that the skolly element should receive somewhat harsher treatment from the police than that which they receive at the present time. One is not dealing with gentlemen. I think the Coloured police, if they would only present themselves, would deal with them properly. But it is now high time for these knifers to be taught a lesson. But I say there is other police work in connection with saboteurs, infiltrators and the so-called guerrilla fighters, and it will be expected of our police to an increasing extent to do their duty on the borders of our country. I do not think I am wrong in saying that the burden of that work will descend mainly on the shoulders of the white policemen. If that has to be the case, we shall have to find other policemen to deal with this skolly element, an element which is at present occupying much of the time of our policemen. I am inclined to say that 60 per cent of the time of white policemen in Cape Town is occupied by maintaining order in the Coloured areas. I think we can quite easily have 30 per cent or 40 per cent of the police at the ready for doing other and more essential security work if they did not have to do that work. I do not know what training our police are receiving in connection with saboteurs and infiltrators, but I have asked myself whether the Minister should not give consideration to exchanging police officers with, say, Angola if such an agreement can be entered into with those people who have a great deal of experience of this kind of thing, so that our people may learn from them. I am just mentioning this for what it is worth.

There is another matter which was raised by the hon. member for Green Point, and that is the question of book work. Not so long ago I went to the police station in Sea Point to see what was happening in my constituency, and one cannot help laughing when one sees what happens after there has been even a minor accident when the cars of two Progressive ladies have collided in Sea Point. The police are called away from other essential work and two or three of them have to go to the scene of the accident. There they take measurements and statements, and a page measuring approximately 2 ft. by 2 ft. has to be completed in decuple, and the entire transaction takes from one and a half to two hours. Subsequently one of the policemen naturally has to appear in court. The point I am trying to make is the following. Seeing that local authorities appropriate revenue from traffic offences, is it not time for them to train their own people to take the measurements at the scene of a traffic offence? Is it not time for their own traffic police to do this work?

They do so in Johannesburg.

The hon. member says this is being done in Johannesburg, but what is happening here in the Cape? In order to make some money, they are very keen to write out a ticket when one has over-parked a short while, but I think they should rather attend to the traffic. [Time expired.]

I gladly associate myself with all previous speakers who paid tribute to the police and more specifically to General Keevy. General Gous and General Van den Berg. But if I were to say no more in this regard, it would have been very wrong-of me, because I think the commanding officer in my constituency is one of the most successful figures in South Africa as regards the combating of crime. Therefore I feel that it is my special duty to include him in my expression of gratitude, because experience in my own constituency enables me to do so. You have probably noticed from the statistics that there has been a tremendous decrease in serious crime on the West Rand, where the command is actually situated within my constituency. I say I should like to include him in my expression of gratitude, because police action, and more particularly in my own constituency, has been very successful. I want to repeat a suggestion, one I made many years ago, to the Minister although this suggestion has been implemented to some extent in practice.

There are certain crimes in South Africa that are of such a serious nature that one may virtually put them on a par with terrorism. I am thinking of two crimes in particular. The one is the crime of knifing. This is not as prevalent in my constituency as in others. The other is burglary. Because the Police Force is so successful in combating crime, I feel that here we have an opportunity of strengthening the Force so that the said two crimes may be combated more effectively. I very seriously want to suggest—and when I speak of skollies, I am speaking of white, black, yellow and all other kinds of skollies in the world—that the permanent removal from the orderly community in which we live of anybody who has been convicted of burglary or knifing, should be considered as a penalty. I think the orderly and peace-loving community in our country has been very tolerant towards those elements up to now. Apart from the fact that these things are appalling crimes, we usually find that most of the knifers have fairly thick dossiers. In other words, they are not arrested and convicted only once, but often. I do not think anybody will object when I say that the removal of this type of criminal from the community should be permanent. I am not speaking about the death penalty now, but if the death penalty were to be applied it would deter potential knifers to such an exent that they would rather use their fists instead of knives or other dangerous weapons in the future. If one were to establish a special camp where they would have to remain for ever and would have to work hard for the rest of their lives …

And give them as many knives as they want.

If one goes into the past of criminals of that type, one will find that there is one thing they hate, and that is work. He hates work. He must know that he will not get a second chance. Our primary duty is to protect the peace-loving public. We must not give him a second chance, because the second time he will be more cunning and it will be more difficult for the police to get their hands on him. On his first conviction he must be removed permanently from the orderly community. This is the medicine I prescribe for that kind of person.

Then I come to the second crime I have mentioned. Sir, can you imagine a more serious crime in the world than breaking into a house, assaulting an innocent woman and her children, knifing and maiming or perhaps even murdering them? I think we have the support of the community as a whole when we say that the removal of this type of criminal from the community should be permanent. Sir, let us come back to Cape Town. At present Cape Town is not the city I knew in days gone by. At present one hears of members of the public, who are no weaklings, being afraid to walk in the streets. [Interjections.] I am not afraid to do so; when this House adjourns in the evening I walk up the Avenue and I have been doing so for years. I am not afraid to do so, but perhaps I am the only one who is still stupid enough to be that brave. I know of men who truly do not risk walking alone in the streets at night. We allow these gangs to conduct what may virtually be described as a reign of terror, and this I attribute to the fact that we are too civilized in prescribing the right kind of medicine for that type of criminal. I now come to a third type of criminal I have not mentioned before. My hon. friends here spoke of policemen having to be accompanied by dogs. There probably are few methods which are more effective in deterring criminals, but there is something lacking. The policeman should not only have a dog with him, but also a cane. The time of many of our courts is fully occupied, at present by dealing with people who have committed minor crimes and who regard themselves as heroes because they have been brought to court. They regard that as giving them some kind of status, but they would gladly do without that status when they know that the police have the right to treat them on salt and pepper after they have been caught by the dog. That will deter them much more than appearing before the court does. Surely we cannot have our Police Force occupying all its time by dealing with that kind of criminal. The time of the Judge or the magistrate is occupied for many hours as well as the time of the public prosecutor. Surely all this is pure nonsense. I think the hon. the Minister agrees with me. I think that he feels deep down that we still are a little too civilized in dealing properly with these barbaric elements. I mention these three types of criminals specifically, and I mention the methods to be applied. I say that if these methods were to be applied, the Police Force would not be kept busy from January to December in dealing with criminals who are often known to the police. When a certain type of crime is committed, the police know where to look for the criminals in many cases. Why should the time of the police be wasted in this way? That type of criminal should be put away permanently or should be treated as I have suggested, and then we shall be able to do something constructive in our deliberations here and then we shall be assisting the Police Force as such in putting an end to this reign of terror in miniature form.

I do not hope the hon. member for Krugersdorp wants me to support him in his proposal that the police should simply mete out punishment in the streets.

You need it in Sea Point.

Yes, there are perhaps people in Parliament who also need it. I should not like to support the idea that people should simply be punished in the streets by the police, and I am glad to say that the South African Police does not do this either, although that charge is often made by people who are not sympathetic towards South Africa. My experience of the S.A. Police is that they do not assault people unnecessarily and do not mete out punishment to them until they are found guilty, and it is in fact the duty of the police not to do this. It is not for them to judge and condemn. It is their duty as police officers to maintain discipline and order in the country. Many of us agree with the hon. member that perhaps it might have been a good thing if in some cases the police could beat the criminals about the legs a little. Unfortunately the law does not allow this, and I would most certainly be the last person who would plead for the law to be changed in order to enable the police to inflict punishment themselves.

As far as the question of dogs is concerned, I think it is an excellent idea that the police should make more use of dogs. Every police officer will tell you that he feels much happier with a well-trained dog near him than without one. I hope the hon. the Minister will get more dogs and will establish more training depots for dogs. I do not know what the method of training is. I do not know whether the police officer himself trains his own dog. I do not think it will cost much to obtain good dogs which are suitable for training. I think if the Minister wants to make an attempt in that direction, he will succeed in obtaining enough dogs and placing them at the disposal of police officers within a short space of time.

I want to return to the suggestion the hon. member for Green Point made here in connection with the “bobby on the beat", a suggestion to which the hon. member for Heilbron objects so strongly. I do not think the hon. member for Heilbron was serious when he condemned the system because it applied in Great Britain. I do not think we should take him seriously. The fact of the matter is that the so-called “bobby on the beat” acts as a very good deterrent, especially for minor criminals in the urban areas, and I hope the Minister will seriously consider, even if he does not do it on a permanent basis, but on a temporary one, especially in my constituency, having certain areas patrolled by police officials with dogs at certain times, without the public knowing it. I am sure this will contribute greatly towards combating crime. But in addition to combating crime, the police also have other work to do. There are certain people, especially elderly women, who, rightly or wrongly, become frightened as soon as they see somebody standing at a distance at night. Even if it is only for the sake of the psychological effect on those old people, who will feel reassured if they know that there is a police officer with a dog in the vicinity, it will be worthwhile introducing this system. I do not expect the hon. the Minister to have every block of flats patrolled. I do not even expect him to have this done permanently, but I am asking him to make available a couple of police officers, even if only for one night a week or a few nights a month, to patrol blocks of flats, for example. Mr. Chairman, I have wondered whether the Minister would not consider making the so-called walkie-talkies available to police in plain clothes. I think this would be an excellent idea. The hon. member for Green Point spoke about skollies disappearing as soon as they saw a police patrol car with a light on top approaching. I know that on many evenings the police in Sea Point now switch off that light if there is not much traffic, and I believe with success. The skollies learnt soon enough to recognize the police car at a distance, and as soon as they see the police car, they disappear. I think that if we could get a couple of police officers in plain clothes to patrol the streets with the so-called walkie-talkies it would help a great deal in combating crime. When the police come upon these criminals, they must be able to hit hard and act quickly. I should like to see detectives put on buses from time to time to provoke the skollies who rob people on the buses, deliberately if necessary. I do not like making this suggestion, but these skollies have to be eradicated completely. I think the police should put some of their people on buses, even if they are women, who obviously have money with them, and if the skolly elements try to rob those persons the police must hit back hard. You see, Sir, the public has become frightened. The work of the police would have been easier had this not been the case. But unfortunately the public is frightened and does not want to co-operate with the police. They are frightened to such an extent that in some cases they do not even want to give evidence. I should be very glad if the hon. the Minister would act quickly and drastically, especially in the Cape area. I know the police sometimes feel despondent, as has already been mentioned by the hon. member for Krugersdorp. This is true. A police official tells you he has caught a trouble-maker and agitator, a skolly, who has caused trouble on private property and he is going to lock him up. If that trouble-maker is brought before the court, what punishment is imposed upon him? Seven days or R2. The R2 is paid for him, and he is free. What desire does that officer have to repeat that procedure every day? I can understand that police officers are becoming despondent about this sort of thing. However, this is not the occasion to discuss it further. But I do want to ask the Minister to act in the way in which we have asked him to do, that is to say, by hitting hard and quickly. We have seen that after raids after drastic and quick action had been taken, the wave of crime subsided immediately.

At the beginning of my speech I thanked the police, but I want to conclude by addressing a special word of thanks to the police officers of Sea Point for the assistance they have rendered me personally in the recent past when there was a flare-up in the incidence of minor crimes in Sea Point. It was good to see how these youths were prepared to come forward and offer assistance at all times, and the courteous way in which they did so. But in saying this, I think it is only fair that I should add that members of the public who are always criticizing the police should give the police a little more co-operation. In this respect I am thinking especially of flat-owners who make a great fuss and then, when the police arrive, for some inexplicable reason or other refuse to co-operate. I hope the Minister will have something drastic to say about this. How can one have law and order in a country if the citizens of that country do not want to co-operate with the police? And how can one have a good police force if there is no discipline and order? It is the duty of the police to co-operate with the public, but at the same time it is the duty of the public to co-operate with the police. Let us give the police praise and credit when they act properly, then we shall be in a stronger position to criticize them when they do wrong and tomete out punishment when they have gone astray. I hope the hon. the Minister will give attention to these few suggestions I have made.

I should Like to associate myself with the tribute paid to our retiring Commissioner of Police. I have known General Keevy for quite a few years, and I know him as one who has always been prepared to listen to our problems. I can testify to this as a result of the stock thefts which took place along our border with Lesotho. In this connection I want to thank him very sincerely for the assistance he gave me. Then I should also like to congratulate Lt.-Gen. Gous, who is now going to be appointed as the new Commissioner of Police. He is an experienced police officer and I am sure he will fulfil the responsibilities of that office with dignity.

We are discussing the Police Vote now. I wonder how many of us have looked at a map of our country to see how great the task of our Police is. The S.A.P. must guard extensive borders to ensure the safety of South Africa. Those borders begin at the Atlantic on the one side, extend to the northern border of South West Africa, including the Caprivi Strip, to the Limpopo, where the border has now in fact been moved a little further up to the northern part of Rhodesia, and then there is the border between Portuguese East Africa and us. In many of those remote regions there are isolated police stations, with no more than the South African flag flying there. But to us those stations are the symbols of peace, of security and of discipline. They are the guarantee of our protection. Therefore the S.A.P. means a great deal to us, because despite many problems, despite the terrorist infiltration in the north of South West Africa, we are living in peace in South Africa to-day. For this we want to express our thanks and appreciation to them. Within the borders of South Africa we have two other states—Lesotho and Swaziland. We have police stations along the borders of these states as well.

These areas also present serious problems to the S.A. Police as a result of stock thefts. These stock thefts must be combated, and this brings me to the point I actually want to make. The Deputy Minister and the Commissioner of Police saw fit to visit my constituency last year. From Ladybrand we flew to the border of Lesotho and southwards to Matatiele. The result of that visit was that our problems were greatly diminished. You must bear in mind, Sir, that the farmers along the border there lost at least R1 million annually over the years as a result of stock thefts. You can imagine what effect this had on the local agricultural economy in those parts. But, as I have said, as a result of that visit our problems there have virtually been solved. Naturally, we cannot say that stock thefts will not occur again. Stock thefts will still occur, but not regularly, as they did in the past. This is to be ascribed to that visit by the hon. the Deputy Minister and the Commissioner of Police. I want to express my appreciation to them for that visit and for what they have done to combat thefts there. I want to suggest that the stock-theft units operating there should remain there permanently. I want to plead that these units should be amalgamated and formed into a separate Police division. I further want to plead that the Transkei should also be classified as a separate Police division. The problems that arose between the Republic and Lesotho also exist to some extent between the Transkei and the surrounding white areas Hence my suggestion, which I am making with the object of having stock thefts eliminated to the greatest possible extent.

I now come to another matter. I want to plead for better housing for members of the S.A. Police. As the hon. member for Odendaalsrus rightly said, the S.A. Police forms our first line of defence against crime in South Africa. Our Defence Force is the second. As far as I know, housing is made available freely to our Defence Force. Why cannot the S.A.P. get better housing too? While having a cup of tea with a police officer last year, I discovered that a high-ranking officer in Kokstad had to live in two small rooms as a result of a lack of housing in that town. There is simply no housing available there. This is something that must be seen to. Our Police Force is prepared to work and to do its share, but the Department must do its share too. At Aliwal North, for example, there are no official police residences. As a result of the fact that an office of the Department of Soil Conservation has recently been opened there, there will be even fewer and fewer houses available there, and the end result will be that it will no longer be possible to have a police station there, owing to a lack of housing. This matter is very important and I want to impress upon the hon. the Deputy Minister that the question of housing for our police should receive urgent attention. This is extremely important with a view to the future of the South African Police.

Mr. Chairman, before I start congratulating I want to do some commiserating; I wish to offer my sympathies to the Nationalist Party on the result of the election yesterday in Swellendam. It is a long time since we last found the Nationalists so quiet after an election as they are to-day.

I also want to offer our best wishes to Gen. Keevy on his retirement. I also wish to thank him for the co-operation which this side of the House always had from him in connection with our duties here in Parliament. Then I also want to congratulate the editor of the South African Police College Magazine. It is a fine production; the articles are of a good quality, especially the articles contributed by the students themselves. I found it most interesting reading and I hope the College will continue to produce a magazine of this nature. I do not know whether all hon. members get this magazine, but if they do not then I think they should get it, amongst other things to see the type of student which is at the college.

We are not so fortunate.

If the hon. member made an effort he would probably get this periodical. Perhaps it would not be worth while to send it to that hon. member because the articles might be beyond his comprehension.

I am sorry the hon. member for Krugersdorp has left the House. That side of the House often accuses us that our criticism of legislation of the Government and its actions gives the country a bad name overseas. But I cannot imagine anything worse than that speech made by the hon. member, who is also a frontbencher, when he suggested this afternoon that the police should be allowed to administer summary justice in the streets. It is tantamount to horse-whipping, dealing out cowboy justice as they go along. I wonder why he made the suggestion, because I am certain nobody will take any notice of it here, and the police will certainly not wish to administer that sort of justice themselves.

It is all very well giving the police credit for what they have achieved and paying tribute to them, but we hear very little criticism from the Government benches concerning the treatment which the police receive. We have heard a plea for housing, but it is a pity hon. members opposite did not join us in the past when we on this side pleaded for better amenities and facilities for our police force. I intend dealing with that aspect later.

I want to refer to the debate which we had here last year when I asked the hon. the Minister if he could tell us anything about the terrorist activities in South West Africa. He took the opportunity then of giving us a very full statement. I want to know from him this afternoon whether he has any further statement to make. The Prime Minister referred very briefly to terrorist activities when he spoke earlier. The Minister may be able to tell us something about what is happening in Rhodesia. We know our Police Force is operating there. I quite understand he cannot tell us everything about what is happening, but I would be glad if he would give the country as much information as he can because naturally people are interested in knowing what is happening there.

I want to get back to the conditions of the police. I have studied the establishment as set out in the annual report. Last year I expressed my concern at the number of police who purchased their discharge from the Force. I was distressed at the wastage. The hon. the Minister in his reply set out to show that the position was not as bad as the figures would indicate because when we looked at the number of resignations, we also had to take into consideration the number of men re-employed. He said we had to deduct the re-employment figures from the resignation figures to see what the actual wastage was. He showed on the figures that the position, as compared with 1965, had improved. The figures given to me in reply to a question which I put to the Minister, do not lead me to think that the improvement was maintained. Up to June, 1965, the figures were as follows. There were 1,435 discharges by purchase whilst 243 men were reemployed. The Minister said that meant a loss of 1,129. He said the final figure for 1966 was only 615, because 1,066 men had resigned while 451 men had been re-employed. According to the figures he gave us, there were in the first nine months of 1967, 732 discharges by purchase while 234 men had been re-employed. Thus there was a net total loss of 498 men. For the full year it would be 623, which is more or less the same as the figure for the previous year. According to the figures which I was given on Tuesday, it would appear that from March, 1967, to March, 1968, 1,314 men purchased their discharge whilst 598 men were re-employed. That means a loss of 716. It is certainly an improvement on the 1965 figures, which seems to have been an all-round bad year. But even if the wastage was kept at the same level in subsequent years, I do not think it is good enough. The fact that so many men resign means there must be some dissatisfaction. The figures I have given mean that approximately 6 per cent of the white members buy themselves out of the Force every year, and that indicates that all is not well.

The President of the Senate when addressing the Police College said the following—

What are in fact “comparable posts” in the Civil Service? Which comparable posts in the Civil Service have attached to them the dangers to which policemen are exposed? Think of the onerous duties of their daily tasks, patrolling at all hours, in all types of weather, on duty for 24 hours a day. There is also a lack of guaranteed compensation for injuries which they may suffer. Therefore I ask: Where are the comparable posts in the Civil Service? I want to stress the difference in treatment of the police, and I want to deal specially again with the police in the Transkei. We know that the policemen in the Transkei are dissatisfied, of course, for one obvious reason, namely differentiation. They are discriminated against. I have raised this question before. I have raised it here every year since 1963, and I intend to continue raising it, because every year the position becomes worse for the Force in the Transkei. Every year more and more justifies the paying of a special allowance to them. Even if the civil servants did not get it, the Police Force should. The hon. member for Aliwal has made a plea for the police patrolling the borders. He has made a plea now for houses for the police; I have made this plea often. I want again to remind this House of what the position is in regard to the police in the Transkei. Last year the hon. member for Heilbron supported me in my plea. For the first time I got some support from hon. members opposite in my plea for the police in the Transkei to receive better treatment. I am not going to give the House the allowances that are paid to civil servants; everybody knows them by now. But I want the House to realize that every year more and more white people are leaving the Transkei in terms of the Government’s policy. More and more trading stations are being bought by the department, and those Whites are being replaced by Natives or by Coloureds. Not only the trading stations, but also the smaller villages are being bought up, because they have been zoned for black occupation. The policeman finds himself being left alone in the village or out in the country, with only a very few officials. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I think it is time I commented briefly on the matters raised here. In the first instance—and I mean this quite sincerely—I should like to express my appreciation for the fact that such a constructive debate is being conducted on this Vote. It is of course known to us all that the Police Department in our country is a Department which renders special services, and that the Police are doing exceptional work, which is not only, as some hon. members have mentioned, dangerous and has often to be done under difficult circumstances, but which is also vital to South Africa, as it would be to the survival of any country. The unfortunate truth is that a Police Force is needed in all countries of the world. If the most ideal circumstances prevailed in the life of society, the Police would probably not have been needed. This is not the case at present; there are always people for whom the Police are necessary. Consequently that is why it is necessary for one to build up a Police Force in a country according to the circumstances which make it necessary. I think we could conduct an entire debate on how large the Police Force should actually be; whether we have too many or too few policemen. If we have too many, the Opposition would be justified in criticizing us, and if we have too few, if the work was not being done properly, then they would also have the right to do so.

But before I go on to comment on that, I should also, as many hon. members have already done, like to associate myself with the words uttered by the Prime Minister this afternoon when he paid tribute to the retiring Commissioner, General Keevy. I am perhaps in a better position to judge than other hon. members are because I have had the opportunity of working in close co-operation with him. I can only testify, in all honesty, that the co-operation I received from him was as pleasant and as good as one could possibly expect from a Commissioner of Police. There is one special characteristic of his which I cannot testify to often enough. I want to emphasize it to-day because I think it is probably the most outstanding characteristic that any head of a department can display to his Minister. It is that during the almost two years we worked together, there was not one single day on which I had occasion to tell him that the information he had furnished me with was not a hundred per cent correct.

Hear hear!

If General Keevy did not have the full particulars, he would say: “No, I do not know yet; I shall find out.” But when he did furnish particulars one could depend upon it that they were the correct particulars.

The hon. member for Sea Point referred to him here, and he made particular mention of the image of the Police Service which had taken shape during the past few years. I would like to tell him that this fine image of this Police Force which has taken shape in the past few years, is to a large extent the result of the actions of the Commissioner of Police, and is particularly owing to the fact that the Commissioner of Police, during his years of service, when he was head of this Department, concentrated his attention on improving the standard of policemen. Hon. members will agree with me that in the past, many years ago, a policeman was usually, caught in the street, as it were, and thrown into a uniform. To-day this is no longer the case. In the past the salaries of the Police left much to be desired. To-day more representations are being made for better conditions of service for the Police. The hon. member for Transkei has just done so now. I appreciate his having done so. I have no objection to that. It indicates in the first instance the value he attaches to and the respect he has for the South African Police. But this image of the Police has improved tremendously over the past few years. Since the hon. member for Green Point also referred to that—I shall comment in a moment on inter alia the numerical strength of the Police—I should just like to give you some idea of how the Police Force has expanded during the past few years. Now I want hon. members to take into account the fact that, with this expansion, better opportunities were at the same time offered to the man who accepted the Police Service as a career. The more opportunities and officers’ courses created on higher levels, the better the opportunities for the young man, who accept the Police Service as a career, of becoming an officer and ascending to the high rungs in the Police Service. I just want to glance at this briefly, and then I want to draw a comparison between the numbers for 1963 and 1968, as regards the increases that have taken place during that period, as well as during the latest period, in April of this year. The figures for the Commissioner and the Chief Deputy Commissioner have of course remained the same. In 1963 there were four Deputy Commissioners; today there are 11—an increase of seven. There were six Assistant Commissioners; to-day there are 23—an increase of 16. One Chief Chaplain has been appointed. In the rank of colonel there were 26 in 1963; to-day there are 68. In 1963 there were 47 lieutenant-colonels, to-day there are 134—an increase of 82. There were 97 majors. At the beginning of this year there were 186. That alone is an increase of 89. Since then, from 1st April, there has been a further increase of 38 in that number. The number of captains have increased from 189 to 403; that is to say an increase of 214 during that period. Lieutenants have increased from 297 in 1963 to 768 this year—an increase of 471. Adjutant officers have increased from 919 to 1,607, i.e. at the beginning of this year—that is an increase of 688. Sergeants have increased from 3,987 to 4,952—an increase of 965. Constables have increased from 7,870 to 8,817, which is only an increase of 974. During this period the number of students has increased from 100 to 900. I just want to say that the credit for these changes, which have been made in the Police Force in order to make it easier for the young men choosing the Police Force as a career to make better progress, must be given to General Keevy, the Commissioner of Police. By means of improved conditions of service and opportunities he has, during the past few years, succeeded in creating an image of the Police which the Police Service of South Africa has never before had in the past. I have had the opportunity of working with Lieutenant General Gous. I have no doubt that his term as the new Commissioner of Police will be a fruitful one and that our co-operation will be of the very best. Consequently I want to congratulate him on this appointment.

Firstly I should like to refer to the remarks which were made by the hon. member for Green Point. In the first comments he made he tried to mete out a backhanded blow to the Government and said at the same time that the Police Service was a good one. How he can separate these two I do not know.

I mean that in spite of the Government the Police Services are so good.

He tried to say that in spite of the Government the Police Service is so wonderful now, instead of saying, as he should have done, that it was because of the good Government that the Police Services were so wonderful. I do not think we shall spend much time on that. His first comment was on the Annual report of the Police. To a certain extent the hon. member attacked me on that and stated that I had promised last year that we would make attempts to have this annual report appear sooner. Then the hon. member stated that I had done nothing about it. I would just like to tell him what actually happened. Last year the annual report for the year ending June 1965 appeared just before we discussed the Police Vote here.

It was on 7th April.

That hon. member and the hon. member for Transkei then objected and asked why it had been issued at such a late date. I furnished him with the reasons why it is not easy for us to have it appear much earlier than that. It is as a result of the statistics which have to appear therein. But now I want to tell the hon. member what happened as a result of my promises. What did in fact happen was that the next annual report for 1966 did not appear on 7th April of this year. It appeared in November of last year.

Yes, that was for 1966, but what about 1967?

I now want to make the hon. member a further promise. The next report will appear towards the end of May this year. In this year, in regard to which he stated that I had done nothing about the representations he had made to me, he actually received three reports.

The following matter raised by the hon. member for Green Point dealt with the question of Coloured in the Police Force. I want to inform the hon. member that I agree with him. It gives us cause for concern. The question of the Coloureds in the Police Force has been discussed quite extensively here. I do not want to go into very great detail, but the fact of the matter is that the Coloureds are not present in the Police Force in proportion to their numbers. I shall go into the causes of this later on. The fact of the matter is, however, that they are not present in the Police Force in proportion to their numbers. Here I want to agree whole-heartedly with the hon. members for Green Point and Sea Point who placed particular emphasis on this matter. I want to say that I believe that each race group should be served by its own people. I think that statement is particularly applicable in respect of the Police, because in the South African set-up it should not be a white man who has to reprimand a Coloured, particularly in view of the attitude the world adopts towards us, and because it should not be a white man who, if it becomes necessary to do so, should use force on a Bantu, it should be a Bantu who, if, it becomes necessary to do so, should use force on members of his own race group. That is why we want it. We have no problems in regard to our numerical strength in respect of the Bantu. The Bantu representation in the Force is reasonably sound, but that of the Coloureds is not. There are just over 1,400 Coloureds in the Force to-day. Our approved complement of Coloureds in the Force is 1,400 But, if I am correct, there is at present a shortage of 150. In other words, our actual number of Coloureds in the Force amounts to 1,494, minus 150.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Deputy Minister a question? I want to point out that the figure that the hon. the Deputy Minister has given us as the total number of Coloureds in the Police Service is not the same as that given in the Estimates. The figure given in the Estimates is 1,040 but the hon. the Deputy Minister has given us a much higher figure.

That may be so. I do not want to argue this matter at any great length at the moment. We make provision for the Votes in the Estimates, and we are allowed to expand on that if the opportunity to do so presents itself. The fact of the matter is that we have 150 fewer posts than the number of approved posts we have at present, but we would like to have far more. We have already asked ourselves what we should do and in what respect we can improve the recruiting of Coloureds for the Police Force. In the first instance I should like to say something about salaries. I think the hon. member for Outeniqua would also like to discuss this matter. I shall be only too pleased to hear what he has to say, because he may perhaps be able to give me a few suggestions as a result of the experience he has gained in regard to the Coloureds. As regards salaries, we recently made certain representations to the Public Service Commission. We submitted certain proposals to them for fundamental improvements to the salary scales for Coloured policemen. I think that this is probably the most important consideration amongst the Coloureds, particularly because so much attractive employment is being offered to the Coloured to-day in our economic structure. We really hope to be able to offer them better salary scales in future. Hon. members are apparently aware that the new college for Coloureds in Bishop Lavis is due to be opened soon, on 4th May. We hope that that college, which will have many more modern facilities than the college in East London we have been using up to now, will also help us, particularly in this area where there is a very large concentration of Coloureds, to attract more Coloureds to the Police Service as a career.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. Deputy Minister a question? In regard to the college at Bishop Lavis, can the hon. Deputy Minister tell us what the training period is, and whether, as in the case of the white policemen, there will be a passing-out parade which could be publicity for the Coloureds?

Yes, that is part of the publicity campaign in regard to recruiting. I think it is also a very important part of our publicity campaign in regard to the Whites. The passing-out parade for Whites, which we hold twice a year in Pretoria, plays a very important role in this recruiting. The training period for Coloureds is six months. In future we will also hold the presentation parade, i.e. the passing-out parade, and try to make it more attractive in order to draw the Coloureds a little closer to the Police Service in this way. There are other factors as well. We have a Coloured band which we are eager to enlarge.

The hon. member for Green Point also expressed other ideas here in respect or a possible alternative designation of the ranks, or the possible removal of Defence Force ranks in the Police Service, particularly in respect of the Coloureds. I do not want to set those ideas aside. I appreciate those ideas, but there are certain problems in respect of the establishment of higher ranks in the Police Service for Coloureds. We may adopt a new policy, where one calls it an inspectorate, or something similar.

Do you want to make it inferior now?

I shall take note of it, and perhaps we will think in that direction. The hon. member for Green Point also had something to say in regard to offences such as knife attacks, etc. He then referred to the case of the hon. member for Yeoville who was apparently attacked by two skollies in one of the suburbs of Cape Town. I should like to avail myself of this opportunity of informing the hon. member and the Committee that the Police are already detaining two suspects in regard to this incident. The two suspects were arrested last night. They are escapees. I do not as yet have sufficient information to say that we have a watertight case, but they are suspected of having committed the crime and results will probably be obtained in due course. The hon. member for Green Point also had something to say about the stations we were closing down.

For his information I would like to say that no station has recently been closed down in the Peninsula. He maintains that we should have more stations, and that we should at the same time have more policemen on the streets walking a beat. Those two things do not go together. If one has stations, one must have people in the office, even in the smallest station. The minimum number of men one needs for a 24 hour service is 10 or 11 men, and inevitably, the more stations one has the fewer people one has to patrol the streets. We have expressed opinions in the past in regard to the question of the “bobby on the beat”. It is the considered opinion of the Police that with limited manpower, as we in fact have to a certain extent, this is difficult. I should like to inform the Committee that great demands are at present being made on our Police. Hon. members know that a few hundred of our Police are not at present being used for normal activities but are being used at other places. Consequently our establishment is being thinned out as a result because they are not available for normal work but have to perform other duties on the borders of South Africa and Rhodesia. That is why we have to make the best use of the numbers at our disposal. It is very easy, if one has an unlimited number of officers, to have them patrol the streets and have others in patrol cars, but the major question is, when is one’s Police establishment too large, and when is it too small?

One must obtain a reasonable average according to the requirements. It is the considered opinion of the Police that we can perform better services, particularly in urban areas, by not having so many stations and preferably to have people patrolling the streets in patrol cars equipped with radios rather than to have them walking the beat in places where no crimes are being committed. But I must admit that the man on foot—or perhaps accompanied by his dog, as the hon. member for Green Point suggested, or two men with a dog, may do good work. We lend a ready ear to the ideas expressed by hon. members, and we do not merely brush them aside.

The hon. members for Green Point and Sea Point referred to traffic offences. Hon. members must realize of course that the investigation of the more serious traffic offences in particular is, from the nature of the case, Police work. We accept it as such, but at the same time we are aware that since the number of motor cars has increased, and the traffic has become more congested, which has resulted in more motor car accidents, the time of the Police is to a very large extent being taken up by the investigation of motor car accidents. For the hon. member for Sea Point’s information, I want to say that we have already come to an agreement with the Traffic Police in Johannesburg to the effect that they may undertake the investigations in the case of lesser important accidents. The hon. member will agree that the Traffic Police do not have the training our Police have. They do not have the same degree of legal training our Police have. If it is a more important accident, it is the task of the Police to investigate it, not only because civil cases may result from that accident, as the hon. member for Green Point said, but also because it may be a criminal offence. The fact of the matter is that it is the task of the Police to investigate offences of any nature and that is why it is to a large extent essential that the Police should also investigate traffic accidents. An agreement has already been reached in Johannesburg that less important accidents may be investigated by the Traffic Police, except in cases where a person has been injured or killed, except in cases where a Government vehicle is concerned, and except in cases where it is clear that an offence has been committed. In such cases the Traffic Police may draw up the particulars and take the measurements and then hand these over to the Police for further action.

Are you going to extend this to other cities?

I cannot at the moment state that it is our intention to extend it to Cape Town and other cities, but apparently it is working quite well in Johannesburg, and where it can alleviate the pressure on us, I think we can consider extending it to other urban complexes as well. Hon. members will of course agree that Traffic Police are not readily available in country towns or areas. In point of fact they are only readily available in the urban complexes, and it is only there where one can use them for these purposes.

The hon. member for Heilbron, as well as the hon. member for Sea Point, also referred to dogs, and I should like to reply at once to both their comments. We of course make use of two kinds of dogs, the tracking dogs and the patrol dogs. At the moment we have 180 tracking dogs and 250 patrol dogs. Ultimately we envisage having 700 patrol dogs, and at the moment we are expanding the quarters at the dog training school in Pretoria and improving the facilities there so that we can breed and train more dogs for the purposes of Police work. As more dogs become available we will be in a better position to make use of dogs for Police work. In many circumstances it is a very effective method of action.

The hon. member for Houghton referred to minor offences with which the Police occupied their time. I want to reply briefly to that. The hon. member would like to know from me what the instructions are. I am not prepared to make the instructions which are being given to the Police available to her, but what I can in fact say in regard to this matter, as I indicated by way of interjection, is that certain laws have to be implemented. We know that failure to have a pass in your pocket is a technical offence, but we also know that legal proceedings should not merely be instituted arbitrarily and under all circumstances. For the sake of fairness, from human considerations, the instructions are that an opportunity should be granted in certain cases to obtain the pass and submit the necessary documents. But the hon. member will realize that if we were to give instructions that in all cases, no matter how careless or negligent the person had been, that person should simply be told to bring the pass, then this piece of legislation would merely be a dead letter in the Statute Book. What I meant by my interjection is that we have a law to implement here. I am capable of carrying my identity card on me. I have it in my pocket at the moment, and I carry it with me every day of the year. I can see no reason why a Bantu cannot carry his pass on him.

But it is a book, and when he is working he does not wear his jacket.

Yes, let that be as it may. Those arguments can be raised. I am not prepared to argue this matter at length, but I am prepared to go so far as to assure the hon. member that we have in fact given instructions. These matters to which the hon. member referred, appear to be isolated cases, in regard to which I admit that a policeman did perhaps go a little too far in his actions when asking for passes. [Interjection.] But we cannot say to them that in all cases these people should simply be warned to bring the pass whenever they want to, because there is a good deal of wilfulness involved here. Then I also want to emphasize that these Bantu know this. There is no question of them being ignorant of the law. They know they must have the pass on them, or near at hand, so that if the policeman asks for it, it can be fetched. But sometimes they are many miles away from there at places where they should not be at all, and perhaps they have no intention of returning to the place where the pass is being kept. Surely this is not fair. If there are such cases where there has clearly been negligence on the part of the man who has to carry the pass, then I am afraid he will have to go and explain it in court. I must allow the Police a measure of discretion, but I cannot issue instructions which would result in the law being totally nullified. That is why I think the hon. member is expecting too much of us when she expects more than reasonable treatment in regard to the displaying of passes by Bantu who have to carry them.

The hon. member also referred to an article appearing in a newspaper. I must admit I have no knowledge of that article. Unfortunately I did not see it and I do not know from which newspaper it came. But I think that this objection has already been replied to to a large extent. It is not the task of the Police to suspect that a criminal offence has taken place in every case where a person’s assets are published in a newspaper. If a complaint is lodged in regard to a criminal offence, then the Police are prepared to investigate it. If the hon. member has an interest in the matter, and wants to lodge a complaint in this regard, then she can do so and we shall investigate it, but I cannot merely have the matter investigated ipso facto in each case when the assets of a man, whoever he may be, are published in a newspaper. He could perhaps have acquired those assets in an entirely legal way; after all this happens quite often. I think that the hon. member is in this respect asking too much of us.

I think that I have already replied to a large extent to the matters raised here by the hon. member for Sea Point. He also raised matters in regard to his own constituency. He spoke about the prestige of the Police, and he referred to the training of Police who are being sent away to combat terrorists. He asked whether they were receiving training. The reply is “yes”, they are in fact receiving training in a special course before they are sent to the borders in regard to the combating of terrorism. I do not think that I should take up any more of the committee’s time by replying now to the other matters raised by the hon. member.

The hon. member for Aliwal referred to the combating of cattle theft on the borders of Lesotho. We are grateful for the fact that there has been a considerable decrease in the number of thefts as a result of the introduction there of a separate unit. I hope and trust that the improvement which has taken place will continue and that the position will improve even further.

The hon. member also referred to housing. I appreciate the assistance of the hon. member, as well as the hon. member for Transkei, with my representations in regard to the provision of housing. Apparently I am even more eager than they are to provide the Police with the necessary housing.

Eagerness is not enough; we want a little forcefulness.

Mr. Chairman, you will recall that the question of housing for the Police was no problem in former years, because if a police officer was transferred to a little town he could rent a house there for £4, £5 or £6 a month. Housing was not a major problem; it was readily available, but during the past few years, with the housing problem which has arisen in South Africa, the provision of housing for the Police has gradually become a greater problem. Hon. members will agree with me that it is not a problem which one can solve easily. But we are eager to provide accommodation to all the unmarried members of the Police Force. The hon. member for Transkei maintains that merely to be eager is not enough. I want to inform him that we are engaged on a programme of providing full accommodation for the unmarried members. As regards the married members, our aim is 50 per cent housing in urban areas and a 100 per cent housing in rural areas. In the urban areas housing is still obtainable, but we realize that in certain country towns to-day housing is simply not obtainable, and that is why we envisage at least 50 per cent housing in the urban areas and a 100 per cent in the rural areas. At the same time I want to admit that as a result of recent inflationary conditions which have made certain restrictions necessary we have unfortunately been unable to proceed with this programme, which according to planning we wanted to complete over a period of seven years, as rapidly as we would have liked to have done. But this is what we are envisaging, and if the hon. members can help me to persuade the Minister of Finance to make the necessary finances available, I should be only too grateful. But at the same time I must say that we do not feel unhappy about the way in which we are being treated. We do not feel unhappy about the funds which are being made available to us for the purposes of housing. We lend a ready ear to hon. members who discuss housing, and we shall do what we can in this regard.

The hon. member for Transkei asked what was happening in the sphere of national security. Although I am not in a position to paint a particularly colourful picture in this regard here to-day, owing, in point of fact, to a lack of activities on our own borders—I am grateful to be able to say this—I would nevertheless like to furnish the committee with our latest information in the field of the combating of terrorism, and national safety in general. Hon. members are of course aware that peace and quiet is to a large extent prevailing within our borders in South Africa. I do not want to give the assurance here to-day that the position will always remain peaceful and quiet. We believe that the spirit of Communism in South Africa has not been eradicated entirely. It is still there, and it can flare up again if circumstances make this possible. The A.N.C. still shows signs of life; the P.A.C. finds it a bit more difficult to survive within South Africa. In South West Africa there is no appreciable turbulence at the moment. After all, all except eight of the foreign trained Swapo terrorists were taken into custody, and the first terrorist trial was held on 29th February, 1968, Swapo has been extremely inactive. Even those who have been released for tactical and other reasons display no further interest in the organization. However, the Police are active on the border in order to deal effectively with any possible further infiltration of terrorists.

A few words in general about terroristic matters. Since the anti-terrorist operations began in Ovamboland on 26th August, 1966, which resulted in the terrorist trial in Pretoria, no infiltration of new terrorists has taken place. However, information is being received from time to time of trained terrorists making their way to South West Africa, and vigilance of the borders is not being relaxed. But as far as Ovamboland and the border there is concerned, we have recently experienced no particular activities.

In Rhodesia we find that infiltration of terrorists from Zambia is taking place from time to time. As mentioned previously, the A.N.C. of South Africa and the Zimbabwe African People’s Union (Zapu) of Rhodesia, have joined forces in their attacks against Rhodesia. It would appear as if the attacks against South Africa have been temporarily abandoned, and that attacks against Rhodesia are being launched not only by Bantu who had left Rhodesia to receive training but also by South African Bantu who are members of the African National Congress. It appears that they are also being utilized for the attacks there. In this way a group of approximately 80 South African A.N.C. and 30 Zapu members crossed the Zambian border on the night of 31st August/1st September, 1967. In encounters with Rhodesian security forces 29 were killed and 17 captured, while 34 fled to Botswana. Towards the end of February, 1968, a group of approximately 100 communist-trained terrorists infiltrated Rhodesia from Zambia. According to information there were between 25 and 30 South African A.N.C. members in the group. In skirmishes with the Rhodesian security forces 53 terrorists have already been killed and 41 captured. Amongst those killed and captured were several members of the A. N.C. The work of clearance is continuing in the midst of reports of a great terrorist concentration in Zambia. In other words, we are of the opinion that further concentrations of terrorists are taking place in Zambia, and that these attacks will apparently be continued.

I should like to give the committee a picture of what is happening there. I should like to give the committee an indication of how the people are equipped and with what means they come to fight against the civilization in South Africa. We must not think that these people are not properly equipped. They are in fact well equipped with modern weapons, ammunition and explosives and everything necessary for their activities. Two caches of arms which were discovered in the Zambesi Valley on 27th March, this year, yielded the following weapons: 77.090 rounds of ammunition of various calibres; 54 automatic weapons of Russian, Red Chinese and Czechoslovakian manufacture, including machine guns, sub-machine guns and automatic rifles; six Bazooka rockets of Russian and Chinese origin; 169 hand grenades of the same origin, and a few of American origin; 44 lbs. of explosives; 10 booby traps; 40 dozen primers for hand grenades: and three East German binoculars. Mr. Chairman, I am simply giving you this picture to indicate to you, if you perhaps thought that these people did not have the necessary modern weapons to continue the work of destruction in South Africa and Rhodesia, how well they are equipped.

I think that I have now more or less replied to all the questions.

I think that this Committee can express its appreciation for the detailed manner in which the hon. the Deputy Minister has replied to the points thus far raised. I want to dwell for a moment on his statement that the police are regarded as the first line of defence in South Africa. This immediately makes me think of the retiring Commissioner of Police, Gen. Keevy. At a certain stage, long before Gen. Keevy’s term of office, I had a great deal to do with this House, and I often saw his predecessor, Gen. Brink, walking up and down the passages with ringing spurs when his official duties called him here. His nickname in the Police was Jan Kamas. If one speaks of the country’s first line of defence, one immediately thinks of a soldier. We had the example of Gen. Brink, and then, later, came Gen. Keevy. As soon as one saw him in his uniform, or even in plain clothes, he immediately gave one the impression of being a soldier, a trained person who was always prepared to listen to everybody’s complaints. No wonder that I encountered men in the police from field rank to that of ordinary constable who behind his back referred to him as “Oom John”. We can but hope that his successor will follow in his footsteps. He has done wonders for the Police Force and provided wonderful leadership during his term of office, and we wish him a very pleasant retirement. But pursuant to the speech made by one of our new members here a day or two ago, I want to express the hope that his services, his energies, his knowledge and his experience can still be harnessed in the service of his fatherland after his retirement.

The hon. the Minister half anticipated me by referring to me as one of the naggers who come here with the same stories every year. He probably knows what is coming. I just want to say that since I began nagging years ago, there has already been some improvement. I want to refer, for example, to the uniforms of the Coloured Police, the uniforms which they are wearing to-day or will wear generally in the near future. Their dress also looks like the uniform of a modem policeman now. The exception is the large old helmet which so many of them are still wearing. It is, of course, traditional dress, and we see these helmets when the State President’s mounted escort appears in public. This type of helmet dates back to the days of the Zarps, in the time of the old Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek. But when it comes to driving modern vehicles, and so forth, the helmet is an absurdity, and we hope that the hon. the Minister will pay attention to this aspect as well.

I now want to say a few words about the skolly danger in the Peninsula. In the past few weeks we have had a few cases where hon. members of this House became the victims of these people. The hon. member for Prieska was robbed, and an attempt was also made to rob me. I sustained the loss of a suit of clothes and an injury to one of my knees—it is still painful even now. Except for this damage, I came off fairly lightly. A few days ago the hon. member for Yeoville was stabbed in the back. The newspapers gave prominence to these incidents because M.P.s were involved. But incidents of this type occur every day, and the people who suffer the most are the Coloureds themselves. After the attack on me that night, a Bantu on the bus said to me, “Sir, do not think you were attacked because you are a white man, because I fear every Friday night that I will not be able to get my pay home”. Then a Coloured woman said, “Sir, come and see what it looks like on a Friday night at Mowbray station. The people there are being robbed openly; the victims are simply told, ‘Come on, hand over’, and that is the end of it”. The people are too afraid and too intimidated to report the incidents to the police. I know that this is a complicated problem, but in my opinion the trouble in this connection to a large extent lies in the fact that we do not have sufficient police at these places. These robbers and pickpockets operate in organized gangs. They are robbing the people on the Parade, at the bus stops, and on the buses as well. On the night concerned I nearly broke my neck in falling! That is the truth—damn it, if still hurts.

Order! I want to point out to the hon. member that he must not use that kind of language here.

I am sorry, Sir, I withdraw. But upon my word, it still hurts … I was not tripped by the one I wanted to catch, but by another member of the gang who came from behind, because, as I have said, they operate in gangs. This problem must be relieved. I do not know how the problem is to be solved eventually, but one thing I do know, and that is that there is not enough police protection. There should be more policemen in plain clothes moving amongst the people to see what is going on. On the basis of my own experience, it is my considered opinion that we do not have enough Coloured police. The figure of 150 men quoted here is only a figure on paper. I am sure that the Commissioner of Police, with his knowledge of the position in the Force and of what is necessary, would like to ask for more men. Inadequate salaries have always been a great obstacle. A friend of mine who is a police officer, recently told me a true story. I myself have also encountered it already. He said that he was standing on the pavement one day and saw a young Coloured, between about 20 and 25 years of age, sweeping out the gutter. He then asked him if he did not want to join the police. The Coloured stood still, broom in hand, and listened carefully to what he was being told. He made a few inquiries and eventually asked, “Sir, but what is the ‘pay’?” When the officer told him what the salary was, he walked away sweeping, and said “No, Sir,’ I really earn more with my broom”. That is what it boils down to. When I mentioned this matter originally in the days when the hon. the Prime Minister was Minister of Justice, the commencing salary of a Coloured constable was R30 per month. At present it is a little more. A Coloured man who has not matriculated commences at an average salary of R51 a month, while one that has passed Standard 10—and the Force gets very few of them—begins with R60 a month. In commerce and industry these people are being offered much higher salaries. The fact of the matter is that the police cannot get Coloured recruits in a city such as Cape Town. They immediately go to work somewhere else at a much higher salary, and with much better conditions of service. The recruits are in fact obtained in the rural areas. When they have completed their training, some of them are also stationed in Cape Town, and within three or four months they are snatched up by commerce and industry, because in the first place it is a recommendation for a Coloured to be a policeman, a man who has been trained and can be trusted. He is offered a higher salary. These attacks which have been made on M.P.s are a minimal aspect of the problem. Incidents of this type are common in the Coloured areas. I am thinking of Bonteheuwel, Heideveld and Bishop Lavis in the Cape, in my constituency. Then there are Gelvandale in Port Elizabeth and Parkside in East London. There the people do not know if they will reach home safely on a Friday evening with the week’s pay. I know of a Coloured working in the House of Assembly, and every Friday afternoon his little daughter comes to fetch his money, while he goes home later, in order to ensure that the money does at least reach his home. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to associate myself with the remarks made by the hon. members who preceded me in respect of Gen. Keevy and Lt.-Gen. Gous. I want to wish both these gentlemen everything of the best for the future.

T should very much have liked to reply to part of the speech made by the hon. member for Transkei, i.e. where at the outset he referred to the result at Swellendam. I am dying to reply to him, Sir, but I know you will rule me out of order.

Since the hon. the Minister has just made the statement that the expansion of the S.A.P. depends upon the need for it, I want to ask the Minister to be a little patient with me, because I want to bring a matter to his attention which is causing my constituents a great deal of concern. I have already taken up this matter at a high level, as it happens, with the Commissioner of Police. I must say that my representations received sympathetic consideration, but since the expansion of the S.A.P. depends upon the need for it, I feel that the hon. the Minister should be so kind as to pay attention to the requests which I shall now put to him.

I want to ask the Minister to strengthen the existing establishment of the Force in Uitenhage. I now want to furnish the reasons for this request. Uitenhage is fast developing into a purely urban complex, and in addition there is a densely populated farming area in the Kruis River valley and vicinity. The town has expanded very rapidly in the past three years, particularly in the industrial field, not only as a result of the establishment of new industries, but also as a result of the extension of the existing industries. The natural development of Uitenhage has resulted in the establishment of new white residential areas, such as Fairbridge Heights, Levy Vale, and Valleisig. The local town council is at present engaged in the development of housing schemes for both Coloureds and Bantu. The expansion mentioned was a matter of necessity, because the white population of the magisterial district of Uitenhage is at present 35,000 as compared with 26,500 in 1960, when the last census was taken. This is an increase of 8,500 or 32 per cent.

What is the position in Port Elizabeth? How does the Uitenhage magisterial district compare with the City of Port Elizabeth as far as the increase in the white population is concerned? Port Elizabeth’s white population at present stands at 114,000 as compared with 98,200 in 1960, an increase of 15,800 or 16 per cent. That is why I want to plead with the Minister that he should regard Uitenhage as a very important town. Crime is increasing by the day in the town and district, and it is evident that the police are finding it difficult to keep abreast. They are nevertheless rendering excellent service to the community. This I want to concede right away.

Permit me, Sir, to express a few thoughts in connection with the problems of the farming community in the Kruis River area. There is a serious need for regular police patrols in that valley to act as a deterrent for stock and vegetable thieves. In spite of the fact that the S.A.P. tries to investigate every complaint of theft as it occurs, they are just not able to do so as a result of the manpower shortage. Bantu and Coloured labourers are quite undisciplined in that area, because the absence of police as a result of the manpower shortage is very obvious. As a result of the serious laxity existing among these labourers, no farmer can discipline his workers without obtaining the support of the police. Periodic thefts occur in the area and the farmers are suffering a very great deal of damage. Stock thieves move from one part of the district to another, and it is absolutely impossible for the investigating officials to do their work properly over such an extensive area. If they try to attend to the entire area, it necessarily becomes impossible to carry out thorough investigations.

I want to say to the hon. the Minister that the farmers there are not keen to report minor cases of theft, but only those of a serious nature, because they are aware of the manpower shortage. Now I want to be reasonable and mention that the Commissioner already increased the police establishment at Uitenhage at the end of 1967. One post of warrant officer and one of detective-sergeant were added, and the promise was made to me that five students would be sent to Uitenhage for training. I am very grateful to the Minister and the Commissioner for that, but I want to suggest that this is not sufficient, for the reasons which I have given.

I want to conclude. I want to associate myself with what the hon. member for Aliwal said about housing problems. The Minister has already replied to that, but I nevertheless want to say to the hon. the Minister that as far as my constituency is concerned, housing for members of the Force leaves much to be desired. I had a survey made in my constituency, and the following facts were revealed. Married members of the Force with dependants pay an average of R50 a month in rental. Some married men with dependants pay as much as between R50 and R80 a month in rental. I am the son of an ex-police officer and I can speak from experience in this connection. It is a general phenomenon that many police officers are simply not prepared to write promotion examinations, because if they pass, they are transferred shortly afterwards, and at the new station they are again faced with housing problems.

I also want to make use of this opportunity to thank the Minister for what has already been done in my constituency. Ten stands at a cost of R545 each, plus road building costs, have been bought in the new Fair bridge Heights extension. I want to ask the Minister very courteously to increase that number of stands in the interests of the Force at Uitenhage so that everyone may be properly housed there.

Unmarried members of the Force at Uiten-have pay an average of R28 a month for board and lodging. Uitenhage is known for the fact that accommodation is simply unobtainable there, and therefore I request that more stands be bought and also that single quarters be erected there—as the hon. the Minister said in his reply. I hope and trust that Uitenhage will receive preference in this respect and that the single quarters will be erected speedily in order to meet the needs of the unmarried men.

Mr. Chairman, while I was listening to the hon. member for Green Point, I recollected my childhood. As a child I had a terrible fear of policemen, and I believed that a bobby on the beat was someone meting out punishment. But in the course of years my approach to policemen has changed considerably. The activities and status of policemen themselves, however, have also changed. The bobby on the beat has become a rare phenomenon in our country to-day. I agree with the hon. the Deputy Minister that the representations for putting more men on the beat are not at all practical in our times, and that we do indeed get better service from radio-equipped vehicles. The status and the conditions of service of the police have been improved and changed considerably over the past decade or two. These things have been improved, because this Government realizes full well what valuable services the Police Force is rendering in South Africa. In recognition of these wonderful services the Government is doing everything in its power to improve the conditions of service of the men in the Force.

There are a few points I want to mention in the short time at my disposal. The first is that of men who purchase their discharge. This gives rise to concern, and I am aware of the fact that the hon. Minister is also concerned about it, because the training of policemen surely costs the State a fair amount. It may be interesting if the hon. Deputy Minister can tell the Committee what the costs are of training a young policeman. But the solution to this problem is not obvious. It is not easy to combat this problem. We all talk about it. Accusations are always leveled, but few positive suggestions are made to overcome this problem. Mention is made of the possibility of increasing the amount which the policeman has to pay when he wants to leave the Force. I feel, however, that we cannot risk increasing the amount, because if we were to do so, we would, in my opinion, be aggravating the position. However, the money spent by us on the training of a policeman who subsequently leaves the Force is not lost to the country altogether, because as a result of the fine training policemen receive at the present time, other undertakings are eager to make use of their services, and they naturally receive good offers. In these times of a manpower shortage these men then fill an important gap. That is why I say that the money spent by us on the training of the man who subsequently leaves the Force, is in fact not money wasted.

The hon. member for Green Point as well as the hon. Deputy Minister himself dealt with the question of the Coloureds in the Force. I also find it alarming that such a small percentage of the Coloureds are members of the Force at present. It is alarming to me, because the object of our policy of separate development is as few points of friction as possible amongst the various population groups. In order to bring this about in respect of our Police Force, I think it is desirable for the Coloured policemen to deal with their own people themselves, for the Bantu to do so in their areas, and for the Whites to do so amongst Whites. I feel that the only way in which we will be able to achieve this is, as the hon. Deputy Minister said, to try to improve the conditions of service of the Coloureds who want to join the Police Force.

I should also like to ask the hon. Deputy Minister what experience has taught as regards the Coloured and Bantu reservists who have been appointed, whether these people are rendering good services and whether they are showing a real interest.

A fuss was made about the question of the police possibly taking harsh action when searching for passes. But in these uneasy times when each Bantu may be a potential terrorist, I should rather see the police being somewhat too conscientious than dealing too gently with these people.

In conclusion I just want to thank the police for the wonderful services which they are rendering as far as the combating of terrorism is concerned. The Deputy Minister gave us a short account of the situation, but few of us realize what these men are really doing for South Africa. I conclude by paying tribute to these men who are manning the outer defences in order to protect South Africa. We can never thank them enough for what they are doing for South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the Deputy Minister for having given us a statement about the security measures being taken on our borders. I would, however, ask him if it is true—I have heard statements made in this regard—that most of the South Africans taking part in the infiltration operations in Rhodesia are Transkeians. Is that correct, or has he no information on that point?

I shall get it for you.

Thank you. The Minister, in dealing with our suggestion to put back the “bobby on the beat” said that one of the troubles was that he did not have enough bobbies, and that is why it could not be done. Of course, if he is able to recruit more Coloureds and Bantu to join the force and to help patrolling those areas, he will have available more white “bobbies” to put on the streets in the white areas. It is true that the police could be relieved of these duties which make them so unpopular with the non-Whites, namely enforcing influx control, searching for passes and that sort of thing; if those duties could be taken over from the police by some other body, then also we would have more police available to do their proper duty. Also, if the prisons could take better care of the prisoners, the police would be saved a lot of unnecessary work in having to find escaped prisoners. It is shocking …

You can discuss that with the Minister of Justice.

I know. I am going to deal with it then, but I want this hon. Deputy Minister to help the Prisons Department. The Minister mentioned that these two suspects who have been arrested in connection with the stabbing of the hon. member for Yeoville, are escaped convicts. About a week ago there was a stabbing in a train in Umtata. A white conductor was killed, also by escaped convicts who had been committed for a similar crime. I think that it is a shocking thing that so many of these dangerous prisoners are escaping and are at large. The Deputy Minister did not answer one question I raised.

I know.

I hope he is giving it proper consideration. I want to finish what I was saying as to why he should give these policemen in the Transkei the allowances enjoyed by other civil servants. I pointed out that the Whites were leaving, not only the trading stations, but also the villages. The position is to-day that in two of the villages the whole magisterial staff consists now of Bantu, from the magistrate downwards. There is not one white man employed in the magistrate’s staff. In other villages only the magistrate is white. So the white officials are leaving the villages as well as the ordinary white businessmen.

Ultimately the policemen will find themselves alone there possibly with the Postmaster, because the Post Office still employs Whites in the post offices there, and possibly one other official who will enjoy the allowances paid because he will be employed by the Civil Service. What is the position with these policemen who find themselves in these villages where the Whites all have left or are in the process of leaving or those stationed in the country areas outside the villages in the locations? They have no more social contact. If they want to take part in sport or enjoy other social activities, they have to travel great distances to the larger towns—and it is expensive travelling. They do not get free transport. With the white people leaving the children are also leaving the towns. There will soon be no schools for white children. That will mean that their children will have to go to boarding school and additional expense will be incurred by the policemen. If the wife wants to go shopping she has to go to the larger towns for this and the other amenities I have mentioned. I want to make an appeal again to the Minister to reconsider the matter and to endeavour to get Treasury approval for the payment of allowances to these officials. I dealt earlier with the dissatisfaction in the Force. I said that there must be some dissatisfaction because of the number of resignations. An hon. member also mentioned the re-employment of officials who purchase their discharge. Of course the Department also re-employs officials who have been dismissed. I do not say that the Department should never re-employ an official who has been dismissed. He may have mended his ways and he may be truly repentant. His offence may also not have been a very serious one. But only recently we heard that Sergeant Arlow had been re-employed. I might say that when I first heard that rumour I could hardly believe it. When I put the question in this regard to the Minister, he confirmed it, and I find it necessary to express my disquiet at what has happened. He has not only been reemployed, but he has been re-employed at the substantial salary of R2,280 per annum, which is more than a sergeant is being paid. We do not know where he is being employed. For security reasons that is being kept quiet. But what is his record? Sergeant Arlow was the man who killed the panga killer. He got great credit for this at the time and it was even suggested by some people that he should receive a medal. Subsequently it was found that the story was not quite as Sergeant Arlow had told it and he found himself charged with culpable homicide. He was convicted but he got a suspended sentence. Subsequently he killed another Bantu. Incidentally he officially stated that he had already killed 13 Bantu in the course of his duties. For the next killing he was sentenced to three years imprisonment. He was charged with murder and found guilty of culpable homicide and was sentenced to three years imprisonment. Admittedly he did not serve the full term of sentence, but the fact is that he was sent to jail and spent some time in jail. What I fear is that the police may come under the impression that assaults will be tolerated and that although they may be convicted, they may be re-employed. Dismissal in any event should be a deterrent to misdemeanours by policemen. Re-employment amounts to condonation. It is always to the credit of the Police Force that in fact they themselves are the people who investigate and charge their colleagues with the offences. I say that it is to the credit of the Force that this is done. They do not get away with it. We have had many instances where prominent policemen have been charged by the police themselves. The danger is that other policemen may become reluctant to investigate charges against their colleagues thinking that it does not matter because even if they are charged they will not be punished. I say that the Minister is taking a big risk in employing a man of Sergeant Arlow’s calibre because if he commits another crime of violence in his new duties, the spotlight will certainly be on him. I hope that it will not be an embarrassment to this country when it is eventually found out exactly where Sergeant Arlow is being employed and in what capacity. I must say that I feel very unhappy about the re-employment of this person.

We have spoken about what should be done to encourage more members of the public to join the Police Force. I want to give a short list of what I think should be done for the Police Force to make the Force more popular. Firstly, salaries should be sufficiently attractive to recruit and keep policemen in the Force, It is important that these men be able to maintain a standard of living that will build up their status in our community. That is the most important recommendation. Secondly, allowances must be made to those living in remote areas. Thirdly, there must be adequate uniform allowances. Fourthly, more attention must be given to housing. The Minister has already told us that he is going to do that and it appears that our pleas over the years are now having some fruit. Fifthly, special attention must be given to recreation, study facilities and other social amenities in remote areas. One must appreciate the difficulties these police officers in the remote areas have in getting these amenities. Sixthly, there must be better pay and training for the non-white policeman in order to attract more recruits to combat crime in the non-white areas. Seventhly, there should be freedom from the duties I have mentioned, for instance in the application of influx control, which make the police so unpopular with non-white members of the public. Eighthly, substantial allowances must be paid to those policemen who speak Bantu languages. It is most important that we have as many policemen as possible who can speak Bantu languages. Substantial allowances must be paid to those who can. Ninthly, better compensation should be paid, as a right and not as a privilege, to those policemen or their families injured or killed in the course of their duties. Finally, there should be better medical benefits, not only for the policemen themselves, but for their families and for those policemen who retire from the Police Force. I have mentioned these ten items which have come to mind and which I think will help to make the Police Force more attractive. Nobody will deny that our Police Force is becoming more and more important. It is also becoming more and more important that our Police Force be a force which is popular with all sections of the community. In order to make it popular with all sections of the community, we must have responsible men in the Police Force, men who are able to win the respect of the people whom they have to serve.

I want to begin by expressing my sincere sympathy with the hon. member for Yeoville on his being assaulted recently. It is a pity, however, that an hon. member of the Opposition had to be assaulted before they change their views. At the same time I want to thank the hon. member for Sea Point for making the same points here to-day that I made recently in connection with certain places in Sea Point. He had to request the hon. the Minister to bring about certain changes as far as rioters and troublemakers there are concerned. Appreciation has been expressed from both sides of the House for the services rendered by the retiring Commissioner of Police. I want to associate myself spontaneously with all those expressions of appreciation. There is something else in connection with the post of Commissioner of Police on which I should like to congratulate the Police Force. Do you know, Mr. Chairman, that this is the first time in the history of the S.A. Police that the Commander-in-Chief of the Force, the Commissioner, has the rank of a full general? In the twenties the Commissioner had the rank of a colonel. We all remember Col. Truter, or Sir Theodore Truter, the then Commissioner of Police. We are very glad that the rank of the Commissioner has now been raised to that of a general. The ranks of his deputies have also been raised to that of lieutenant-generals. I think these promotions in rank are fully justified. The strength of our Force is 33,000 units today, all ranks included. Compare this to the organization of the Defence Force. 33,000 units equal three divisions, or one army corps. And an army corps is usually led by a general. It is on these grounds that I say that the promotion in the rank of our Commissioner of Police is fully justified. In the first place I want to thank the hon. the Minister for this promotion in rank and, in the second place, congratulate the officers concerned with this promotion of their ranks. Apart from other considerations, it does justice to the responsibilities attached to their posts.

The security of South Africa and the happy and peaceful co-existence of all the population groups in our country are in the first instance in the hands of the S.A. Police and dependent upon efficient and vigilant action on their part. I sometimes wonder whether we always realize that we owe that to them. Furthermore, the S.A. Police is a bulwark against communists, saboteurs and potential assassins of the people. I am using strong language here. The hon. member for Houghton, who is not in the House at the moment, made an appeal here that the S.A. Police should occupy themselves less with minor offences and should devote more attention to burglaries, etc. But in my opinion persons who are guilty of participating in the activities of underground organizations, organizations that aim to destroy the Christian National order in South Africa, are committing the most serious crime that one can commit. And we are therefore deeply indebted to the Police for taking firm action on this front as well for the sake of the safety of our fatherland. I want to refer here to what recently appeared in Die Beeld under the heading “Our Police do their share—terrorists mown down in Rhodesia …” Our Police Force is therefore looking after our safety not only in our own country, but also beyond our borders. The people of South Africa ought to be very grateful to them for that.

Another serious crime is the abuse of drugs by which our young people are being undermined and which causes so much disruption in young lives that could otherwise have been usefully employed in the service of their fatherland. The police recently conducted a raid in my home town, Ohrigstad. In this connection I want to refer to and quote from an article which appeared in Hoofstad. The following was stated in the article (translation)—

The article goes on to say—

I may mention that if you were to go to the Ohrigstad Police Station you would see a row of dagga smugglers’ motor cars standing behind the police station that have already been confiscated. If these people had succeeded in taking this dagga to Johannesburg you can just imagine how many young lives there would have been ruined. I do not say that it would have caused their death, but when one is morally murdered it is worse than physical death.

I should like to bring a few matters to the attention of the hon. Deputy Minister. We have noticed—and there was also an article about this in the newspaper recently—that the hon. the Minister of Defence recently announced in the House that he had asked the C.I.S.R. to do research with a view to designing a more suitable uniform for the Defence Force. I now want to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister whether it is not perhaps possible for him to do the same. Could he not ask the C.I.S.R. to do proper research to design a better uniform for our police?

Mr. Chairman, allow me to say that I also used to be in uniform. I feel, however, that the present uniform of the South African Police—it may perhaps be quite suitable in some ways—does not command the necessary respect of the public. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Lydenburg finished his speech on the note of new uniforms for the Police Force. Over the years we have seen many uniforms designed for the police. We remember that we had the policeman in the blue uniform, with the very large helmet and shining badge, which was the insignia of the law. That was changed. We have had the khaki uniform, and now we have the present uniform. I think that the changing of uniforms is a very expensive undertaking, and I think that at present the summer uniform and the winter uniforms look very smart. Indeed, I feel that we cannot improve very much on their uniforms. We have this afternoon heard the congratulations extended to the Commissioner of Police. I would also like to add my tribute to him on his retirement and to his successor. I think, as far as the Police Force in this country is concerned, that the general feeling of the public is that they do a very good job under the circumstances. We thrust so many extra duties on them and they carry them out apparently without any complaint. The one major duty that has been placed on them is that of guarding our borders. The police establishment was never designed to guard our borders to the extent that we have at the present time. I think that the hon. the Deputy Minister will agree that this is something of a permanent nature. We, in the past did not have, unlike Europe, standing armies or standing police forces on our borders. With the advent of the changes that we see in Africa and the entrance of Communism, the position has changed. We have reached the stage where we have got to have an armed patrol on our borders at all times. I would like to urge upon the hon. the Deputy Minister that, if the Police Force is going to continue to carry out this duty, and they are doing a wonderful job, the establishment of the whole of the Police Force will have to be re-examined, of course. The question of finance comes up. We spend a lot of money on defence, and this is part of our defence programme. It is in the defence of South Africa. This side of the House will not refuse anything that the hon. the Deputy Minister asks in order to put this Force on a proper basis. It cannot carry on as it is doing at the present moment. It cannot hope to police South Africa on the domestic scene and also guard the borders. That is an impossible situation. The Force cannot go on clearing out its police stations and picking an odd man out here and there to send him up to the border. You just cannot do that. If one takes the whole Police Force, one finds, and it may be higher, that one-third of the Force is not available at any one time. They are either on leave, sick, or on courses. Added to that we have the five-day week, which was granted to the Civil Service and which the police enjoy. You therefore have an added call as far as the Police Force is concerned. It is a question of re-examining the establishment. We have heard about the Coloured police. The Coloured police are not attracted to the Force on a salary basis. I think that their uniform should be redesigned. I think that is one uniform that can be redesigned. I think that we should improve their salaries and their working conditions so that we can attract the right persons to the Force. We must not forget that the Coloured man suffers a lot from intimidation. Amongst the Coloureds there is nobody more despised than a policeman. I think that these policemen live a very difficult life. You therefore do not attract the right man to the Force that you should have. We have heard of the streamlining of the work of the police this afternoon. I agree with that. In Mr. Oswald Pirow's time he took traffic control away from the police and handed it over to the municipalities. I think that the hon. the Deputy Minister must look at this aspect again and say that it is time that the municipalities took over the complete traffic work, namely the examination of accidents. I think it is wrong that we should call upon the very small force that we have to take details of accidents. In Cape Town you see cars held up, because there are no police available to do the work. You will find that a traffic policeman will just ride past on his motorcycle. I think that the hon. the Deputy Minister should hand that work over entirely to the traffic department.

We have heard of pickpockets and bobbies on the streets. I am one of those who believe that if we can have a few more police on the beat we would not have the trouble that we are having to-day. I do not agree that the mobile police force is the answer. I know that they do a good job, but the average Coloured skolly, white skolly and the vagrant can hear them a mile away. Invariably, when the police get there, they are gone. How much better would it be if we had the preventative arm of the law in the shape of the policeman on beat. I do not say that we should confine the Coloured and the Bantu police to the Bantu and Coloured areas. I feel that where we employ Coloureds and Bantu in the cities we should have the Coloured, Bantu and white policeman patrolling. We should also examine our internal administrative control as far as the Police Force is concerned. If you go to any police station, as mentioned by the hon. member for Green Point, you find that there is a fair staff kept in the office who do a considerable amount of writing. They have enormous books that they have to complete. If you have to report an accident you find half a dozen constables in the office doing nothing else but recording information on reams and reams of paper. There is the position in the courts. This has been tightened up to a very large extent, and time is not wasted as it used to be. If you go to court you find at least half a dozen policemen there. They are there to give evidence, admittedly, but there are others who are used as orderlies … [Time expired.]

In the few minutes I have at my disposal, Mr. Chairman, I wish to touch upon two matters only. The first is in connection with the terrorists and the action taken by our police in Rhodesia. I want to extend to the hon. the Prime Minister and the hon. the Deputy Minister my cordial congratulations in this regard. Britain has objected to the actions of our police in Rhodesia. That is, of course, based on Britain’s presumption that Rhodesia is still a colony. If that were the case—I am, however, quite convinced that Rhodesia is no longer a British colony, but an independent state—it would have been incumbent upon Britain to ensure that no terrorist bases could be established in Rhodesia. In such a case we would have been quite entitled to offer assistance in British territory for the purpose of preventing terrorist bases from being established there.

You should have said that on the previous Vote.

No, I did not. I want to quote from Stoell’s book, “International Law”, in which the following is said—

Consequently, if Rhodesia is still a British colony, it would be quite legal for South Africa to assist them in driving out the terrorists there who are a threat to South Africa as well.

The other point I should like to mention, is the trial of the terrorists and the fact that it takes so long before they are tried, and I want to raise the question whether, for the sake of preserving our civilization, it is not desirable to have immediate on the spot trials and to settle such matters there and then.

The hon. member for Kempton Park referred to the police activities in Rhodesia, and let me say that I am wholly in agreement with what is being done. I am wholly in agreement with the presence of our police there.

The hon. member for Outeniqua spoke to the hon. the Deputy Minister in connection with Coloureds and the protection of the Coloured people, and he referred to the protection racket and various other things. I want to say to the hon. the Deputy Minister that everything that was said by that hon. member applies just as pertinently to the Bantu and the Indian people in this country. The protection racket in the Indian and Bantu townships in and around Durban and Pietermaritzburg is just too shocking. I am sure that he and his Department know about it and I want to add my voice to those pleas which have gone before me for more foot patrols and other police patrols, and even horse patrols, particularly in these townships. These people travel from the cities where they have employment, mainly by train and bus. They arrive at points in those townships where there is a concentration of people, and this is where the trouble begins. I want to say that this is the main source of the trouble, at those points where there is a concentration of people, and I am sure the Deputy Minister knows how this protection racket is worked. It has spread even as far as Hammarsdale, where these people are held up of an evening after they have drawn their pay, and it is put to them: Give us a portion of your pay and you will get home with something; you will arrange to give it to us every week; otherwise you will get home with nothing, if you get home at all. It has got to the stage where a firm of the size of Harvey Greenacres, which is one of the largest retailers in Durban, has tried all sorts of schemes in an attempt to get its people home safely. They have tried paying out on different days of the week instead of all at once. They have tried paying salaries in the middle of the month, and they have even gone so far as to transport their personnel home to the Bantu and Indian townships.

The hon. member for Transkei gave the Deputy Minister certain suggestions for the improvement of conditions of members of the Police Force. He mentioned the question of increased language allowances. I want to support him in this, and I want to bring one further thought to the ears of the Deputy Minister, and that is not to waste those officials in the Department who have these language qualifications. We must not have, as we have to-day, the case where you have a Zulu linguist stuck in the Transkei, in the Western Province or in the Northern Transvaal; where you have a person who is able to speak Sesuto placed in the Western Cape or in the northern parts of Zululand. I bring this to the notice of the hon. the Deputy Minister and ask that he take cognizance of it.

We also had the question raised by the hon. member for Green Point in regard to the policy of his Department to do away with the smaller suburban and country police stations and to centralize. I want to plead just the other way. I want to ask the Deputy Minister to look at the area between Pinetown and Cato Ridge in Natal. We have a police station at Pinetown, the next one is 12 miles away at Hillcrest, and the next one is 14 miles further on at Inchanga, which covers a tremendous area. There has been phenomenal development in that area over the last few years. The population has more than trebled, both Whites and non-Whites, but we still have only these three police stations, and those police stations are doing a wonderful job of work. I want to place on record my appreciation of the work the staff at those three stations are doing, but they are doing it under the most difficult circumstances. I am very pleased to see in the Estimates that there is an increase of R15,000, which is nearly 80 per cent, for the purchase of forage, and we have an increase of R10,000 for the purchase of saddlery and harness. This is a very fine trend as far as I am concerned, because looking at the reports I find that we have in the Police Force only 51 horses in the whole of the Republic outside the Transkei. I hope that this means that there is going to be an increase in the number of horses. Let me have some of those horses in my constituency, and let me have the policemen to ride those animals, because there are parts which are utterly inaccessible to vehicular traffic. I think this is the way; let us go back to our horse patrols; and let us go back to the foot patrols, and let us give the people, as the hon. member for Salt River said, preventive policing and not merely detection after the crime has been committed. Once again, I want to repeat my plea made to the Deputy Minister in 1966, and again in 1967, for the speedy establishment of this police station at Hammarsdale.

I am very pleased to see on the Estimates the vote which appears this year for the first time, with an amount of R50 to be expended. I know that this is merely a token amount, just to get it on the Estimates. But again I want to plead with the Deputy Minister and to ask him whether we cannot advance the date of establishment. I am sure he knows that the Bantu population in that area alone has gone up between 1957-’58 and 1967 from 12,500 to 45,000 people. This has created tremendous problems. Much as we value and welcome the additional motorized patrols which have been instituted in that area, they do not solve the problem. At the same time I want to go back once again to this complex between Pinetown and Inchanga and ask the Deputy Minister to investigate that area and see whether there is not really a necessity for an extra police station either at Gillitts or in the Winston Park area. I am sure that my colleague, the hon. member for Durban (Central), who happens to be a constituent in that area, will give any further particulars the Deputy Minister might require.

In conclusion, I want to refer to an item on page 17, Miscellaneous Expenses, Secret Services, R1,012,000. I find that the amount voted for this service last year was only R412,000. This constitutes a tremendous increase. I wonder whether the Deputy Minister could advise us, firstly, on what services this amount is to be spent and, secondly, why it has occasioned such a tremendous increase for this year.

A great deal of mention was made to-day of the good work done by the police. Tribute was also paid to the retiring Commissioner of Police, and I think that all members in this House are associating themselves with the tribute paid to the police for the good work they are doing.

The hon. member for Sea Point also mentioned that in recent times the prestige of the police had increased a great deal. Mr. Chairman, that is true and, what is more, the Department of Police is constantly endeavouring to raise the standard. As you yourself know, Sir, a diploma course for police officials was introduced by the University of South Africa as from the beginning of this year. This course was introduced for the purpose of providing them with a good academic background with a view to the proper maintenance of law and order in the country. The course is open to everybody with a school-leaving certificate. It is, admittedly, a difficult course, but it qualifies those persons, who obtain the diploma, for those 129 additional officers’ posts which, according to the police establishment, have been introduced. But although all of this is true and fine, we feel that the conditions under which the police have to work, as well as their housing conditions, should be improved. In my own constituency, for instance, one has the place called Zebediela. Zebediela is a very small police station, a corrugated iron building. Owing to the extent of of the work in that area in the past few years, it has become a matter of urgent necessity for the working conditions of the police at that station to be improved. The Bushveld and the Northern Transvaal have, as hon. members know, a very hot climate, and it is not very pleasant if quite a number of police officials as well as the Bantu constables have to work in one small corrugated iron building. Therefore I want to ask the hon. the Minister to try to have a proper police station erected there. In addition the Rousing available there to members of the police force, is very poor. There is one homestead but it is a very old one; it is full of cracks and quite dilapidated. Other than that there is no housing for the police. Some of the police officials there have to rent houses on the estate, but they do not know how long they are going to stay there before they are given notice. Therefore I want to ask the hon. the Minister to be so kind as to give his attention to the question of housing for the men who have to work in that hot climate.

Then there is at Marble Hall a police station which is very old. It is really a homestead that was built on a residential plot. There are two small offices and there is very little room indeed. I have been told that plans have been drawn up for a new police station and two houses, but owing to the inflationary trend over the past year or two the building programme has been shelved. Accordingly I want to ask whether this building programme cannot once again be proceeded with as soon as possible. Finally, at Groblersdal, also situated in the hot area in the Northern Transvaal, there is a police station, a corrugated iron and wooden building, which was built as far back as 1928. This building was erected at that time for the Department of Health, which had to combat the pests in that area, and in the course of time the police moved into it. There is very little room, and owing to the climate the building itself is not suitable for a police station either. For that reason I want to plead that attention be given as soon as possible to the question of adequate office space and convenient housing for the police officials in the Northern Transvaal.

On 9th April last, the hon. member for Umlazi asked the hon. the Deputy Minister of Police whether any members of the Police Force were being trained to take over aliens control after the introduction of the proposed citizens’ passports by the Department of the Interior. The Deputy Minister replied “no”, and then he added at the end of his answer—

I think the hon. the Deputy Minister was (a) very uncharitable; (b) badly informed …

And (c) unwise.

… and (c) very unwise. I think he was being uncharitable to the hon. member for Umlazi. I am sure the hon. the Deputy Minister has heard of a journalist by the name of Aida Parker. I am sure that every hon. gentlemen sitting on that side has heard of Aida Parker.

I have never heard of her.

That hon. member is obviously not in the highest circles of his party, otherwise he would undoubtedly have heard of her. Sir, in The Sunday Tribune of 24th March, there appeared an article, under big banner headlines, “Life Books’ mean New Police Power: System is open to abuse, say lawyers,” by Aida Parker. When one has a political story by Aida Parker it is good and so well-informed and comes from so high a source that it is usually printed under her own name. This is what she says in this article—

That was on 24th March. Then on 31st March, a week later, there was another article in The Sunday Tribune by Aida Parker. The heading is “New Passport Police soon: First Part of ‘Book of Life’ Scheme.” It then reads—

She goes on to say that she was told this in Cape Town “last night”. Then she goes on to say—

Sir, the question was put on the basis of no greater authority than Aida Parker, not to cause trouble. This comes from Aida Parker who is very well known. She casts herself or is cast in the role of confidante of persons in high places and she always gets the scoop stories.

Who is Aida Parker? I have never heard of her.

When the hon. member for Brakpan reaches the high places where Aida Parker gets her information, then he will get to know her. So confident was The Sunday Tribune that they offered Aida Parker yet another go at this. This was on 14th April, after both the hon. the Deputy Minister of Police and the hon. the Minister of the Interior had denied that this would come into operation and that the police would have anything to do with it. There on the front page is set out the whole history of the matter and how the Government had denied things that Aida Parker had said in The Tribune but that in fact this was so and that if we waited until September we would see that The Sunday Tribune was right. I think with this sort of report one is entitled to know from the hon. the Deputy Minister whether there is in fact anything in what Aida Parker wrote in The Sunday Tribune or not, because if there is, then obviously this is a matter which we would need looking into, and if it is true, then this is a matter of which we were completely unaware up to the time of our briefing by the members of the Department of the hon. the Minister of the Interior.

Mr. Chairman, I shall not hold the Committee up very long. There are just a few points I want to raise with the hon. the Minister, and I know the gentlemen behind me will be very disappointed if I do not throw a note or two of criticism into this tranquil pool this afternoon. There are one or two matters I should like to raise which are a little more contentious than all the sweet words of praise which hon. members nave showered on the unsuspecting shoulders of the Police this afternoon.

You have waited rather long.

I want to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister if he would care to give us a little information about one of the unpleasant cases of assault that was reported in the newspaper, by five policemen on members of the public, about which I might say that the Deputy Commissioner of Police had some very correct words of stricture to utter. This is a case where a judge referred to policemen “hunting in a pack, looking for a victim”. “They engaged in what they considered to be a sport, a brutal, wilful and sadistic game.” However, I think everybody will have read about this case. There were five policemen involved. They were very brutal with members of the public. The Deputy Commissioner told the Press that two of the five had been dishonourably discharged from the Police. All five of these people were found guilty. In fact, as far as I know, they were sentenced to long terms of imprisonment when they were found guilty by Mr. Justice Nicholas of assault and crimen injuria. May I ask the hon. the Deputy Minister: What has happened to the other three of these policemen? Surely, they too cannot be retained in the Service after being found guilty of wilful assault on members of the public, and after the Deputy Commissioner of Police himself had commenced very unfavourably on their behaviour. As he correctly said, the Police “will not tolerate that kind of thing; the Police are there to protect the public and not to assault them. We can do without those policemen who think their uniforms give them the right to assault people”. I could not agree more with the Deputy Commissioner. But what interests me, is why only two of the five have been dismissed.

The other matter is the following. I have read in the newspaper and I think it was confirmed by a question and answer in this House, that the notorious Sgt. Arlow, has now been re-engaged by the hon. the Deputy Minister’s department. [Interjections.] I understand the matter has been raised by the hon. member for Transkei; so I leave it at that. The hon. the Deputy Minister, no doubt, is going to reply. Of course, I am against his re-employment at all by the Police. I do not think this man is suitable to be a policeman. I think a man who has his record and who has been found guilty in a court of law of the charges on which he was found guilty should not be a policeman at all, special duties or not. I think it shakes the confidence of the public to have a man like this re-engaged. But whatever special duty he is engaged in, I sincerely trust that it does not involve his dealing with the ordinary African public of this country, because I think he has a psychosis. He boasts that he has killed whatever number of Africans it is. I think a man like this should not be put in any position of authority at all. If he has been taken back by the hon. the Deputy Minister, he should not be given any duties that bring him in contact at all with Africans. I think it would be a scandal if that were the case.

The other question I would like to ask the hon. the Minister, is the following: What is he doing about some of the cases which also have come to light in the courts of law about methods of interrogation which apparently are still used by certain members of the Police. There is the State versus Otto, which was heard in the Natal Supreme Court. There the judge was very stringent indeed in his censure of the methods and the conduct of the Police in obtaining information from suspects. I think it was I who put a question to the hon. the Minister and asked him what he was doing about this case, particularly as there were such extraordinary remarks about a lieutenant-colonel. It seems that the judge said that he was a thoroughly untruthful and untrustworthy witness, and that he had gained the impression that neither the lieutenant-colonel, nor the detective-sergeant in the case seemed to think there was anything wrong with the way in which the Police had interrogated suspects.

I asked the Minister if he was going to have this matter investigated, and he replied that it was being investigated; that was some time ago. I now hope the Minister is in the position to give this Committee some further information on this particular case.

There is also a case of interrogations by means of electric shock treatment, where a judge found that the police had used electric shock treatment as a method of interrogation on a suspect. The most extraordinary thing, according to Press reports, is the following. The magistrate and the prosecutor in this case praised the “very conscientious and efficient services given to the state” by the two policemen who were subsequently found guilty. The prosecutor went on to say the offence was a serious one, but it should perhaps be taken into account that the policemen had committed the offence during the course of their investigations and in order to solve a crime. I think that is an extraordinary statement for any person in the employment of the state to make in a court of law about a method of interrogation which is completely unlawful and I am sure the Deputy Minister would not approve of methods of that kind. This sort of comment I put in the same category as that of the hon. member for Krugersdorp who earlier on pleaded that the Police be allowed to take the law into their own hands.

Yes.

That hon. member agrees that the Police apparently should be allowed to go about horse-whipping suspects in the streets. Now, the interesting part of it is this. Had I made that sort of suggestion I would have been told I was “beswaddering” South Africa in the eyes of the outside world, that I was a “vyand” of South Africa, that I was doing South Africa a terrible disservice by suggesting that this country is so crime-ridden that ordinary methods of arresting suspects would not do and that I was suggesting the police be armed with horse-whips which they could use summarily on suspects. But I do not make any such suggestions: They come from a front-bencher on the Nationalist side, and an awfully garrulous gentleman in the middle bench behind me. [Interjections.] Listen to him. I should like to have a little information from the Deputy Minister about these methods of interrogation and what he is doing to stop them.

Mr. Chairman, I want to begin by telling the hon. member for Houghton that she need not be afraid that irregularities will not be dealt with should they take place in the police force. I want to give her the assurance that the police take strong action against men in their own ranks who commit offences. This is the state of affairs I found amongst the police. I am not responsible for this state of affairs; that credit I do not claim for myself. I have found that the Police as a department is almost like a large family, for if one of them falls along the way, they pick him up and encourage him; they go out of their way to help one another. However, I have found at the same time that if one of them does wrong, he is not shown much mercy. In fact, quite often I feel inclined to show a little more mercy towards a member than the police themselves think he ought to receive. The result is therefore that the hon. member may rest assured that in cases where members of the police force do not perform their work or duty properly or where they do wrong, they are duly punished.

The first case to which the hon. member referred, is that of the five men who dealt so harshly with certain people. Two members have already been dismissed from the police service. At present deliberations are being held in regard to the other three, and in all probability—I expect so, but I do not wish to make a prediction, since this matter is being deliberated by a council—the other three will also be dismissed. The hon. member can rest assured that the necessary disciplinary action is taken against policemen who do wrong.

The hon. member also asked a question in regard to the interrogation in the Otto case. Certain comments were made in the course of that case. Amongst other things Otto claimed in his evidence that during the journey from Nelspruit to Vryheid he was continuously interrogated by two members of the Force who were escorting him. He complained that he had been hungry and had not received any food or other refreshments. He also claimed that his escorts frequently stopped along the way and interrogated him. Investigations are always made when such claims are made, and so it was in this case as well. As regards the first and the last claims, namely those in respect of the interrogation, we could not ascertain whether that was in fact the case; in other words, the evidence was such that the claims could not be proved. As regards his claims that he had been hungry, the following was ascertained: that on two occasions on the day in question Otto had been asked whether he wanted something to eat. On the first occasion he refused food and only had a cup of tea, and on the second occasion he asked for a plate of curry and rice and a cold drink, which he had. After he had made his statement, Otto made the following comment, according to our findings. He said the following to the police, “Thank you, Mr. Van der Merwe, for the way in which you and the police dealt with me.”

Now, as regards Lieutenant-Colonel Coetzee: The presiding judge also commented on his evidence. At the expiry of his term of service, he retired from the Service. A dossier in connection with perjury was opened against him, and it was handed over to the Attorney-General. To my knowledge the Attorney-General has not yet decided to prosecute, and it is not for me to comment further on that matter to-night.

As regards the electric shocks, I must unfortunately tell the hon. member that I am not aware of that. If she would furnish me with more particulars in that regard, I should be only too glad to have the case investigated.

The hon. member for Durban (North) treated us to quite a number of newspaper reports. If I remember correctly, the question was whether the police were being trained to do certain things. I made certain comments in that regard, and the very clear impression I gained was that at the least the question created the impression outside this House, and was intended that way, that at this initial stage already suspicion was being cast on a scheme envisaged by the hon. the Minister of the Interior. That is why I commented on that. I do not consider it to be worthwhile for us to discuss that matter any further. As regards the training of the police, that is not the position, and if newspaper reports give that impression, then they are giving the wrong impression. I think hon. members should rather investigate matters somewhat more carefully if they wish to bring up such an important point.

The hon. member for Potgietersrus made mention here of the problems experienced by certain stations in his constituency. Zebediela appears on the Estimates already. Unfortunately I do not have at my disposal here any information in respect of the other stations. However, I shall attend to them. I should just like to tell him that we are making ten bursaries available for the diploma courses. We are affording members of the Police Force every opportunity to improve their academic qualifications in cases where there is a desire to do so. Many of them avail themselves of this opportunity. As I am saying, we are making ten bursaries available as far as this matter is concerned.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) dealt here with certain matters. In the first place, he talked about acts of violence. He quite rightly remarked that it did not only apply to the Coloureds, but also to the Bantu and the Indians. I readily agree with that. It is a fact. Unfortunately we are living in a period to-day where it has apparently become a world-wide phenomenon that people proceed to violence so easily. This type of hooligan who usually commits deeds of this nature is, from the nature of the case, usually a big coward. With a small weapon, with a small knife, he can do a great deal of harm. He is not prepared to use his fists or his hands, and he looks for a weapon to fight with. In such cases use is made of knives and other dangerous weapons, often with very had consequences. We have that problem; we are combating it to the best of our ability. Here in the Peninsula there has indeed been a decrease in the number of knifings. This is a major evil, something which causes us a tremendous number of problems and much concern. The hon. the Minister of Justice is working on an amending Bill in connection with dangerous weapons. It has been referred to the police for comment, and we shall investigate the matter further to see whether it will be possible for us to introduce legislation to curb this sort of thing to a certain extent. We saw what happened before our eyes in this House. It is simply impossible to eradicate that sort of thing completely. The solution may perhaps be found in another direction, possibly in legislation prohibiting the possession of dangerous weapons or possibly in creating better economic and social conditions, and so forth. However, it will always remain a problem.

The hon. member also referred to the area between Pinetown and Cato Ridge. He also referred to Hammarsdale. Hammarsdale’s police station will be built: it appears on the Estimates.

When?

I cannot tell him when, because we cannot build as fast as we should like. We should also consider other Departments as well as financial circumstances. The hon. member may rest assured that we are attending to Hammarsdale’s police station and that it will in fact be built.

Where will it be built?

That, too, is still an open question at the moment. The hon. member should rather negotiate with me personally if he has any good ideas in regard to that matter.

The hon. member for Kempton Park asked whether it was not possible for the terrorists to be tried on the spot. I am afraid it is not possible. Our system of law simply does not lend itself to that.

The hon. member for Salt River raised certain matters here, but I do not think he expects me to reply to many of them.

The hon. members for Transkei and Houghton referred to Arlow. Arlow was punished for his deeds. Apart from the wrong deeds he had committed, for which he was punished, he did a great deal of good work while he was in the Police Force. Apart from the wrong things he did, I have been informed that he is a good and conscientious worker. He is now back in the Force. After all, he must make a living somewhere. We have employed him. All police officials do not perform police work. The real policeman is the person who deals with the public. He is the person who affords protection and investigates cases.

I can give hon. members the assurance, and I have already said so by way of a reply to a question, that he was appointed on a quite temporary basis. He can be dismissed from the Service at 24 hours’ notice. That is how his appointment is at the moment. In addition I can give hon. members the assurance that Arlow’s work is such that he does not deal with the public. On the other hand, he must be employed somewhere. At the moment he renders good service to the police force, just as he did before. He has been appointed; we as the police must shoulder the responsibility for his appointment and we shall have to see to it that Arlow leads the life of an ordinary, respectable citizen of the country and performs the work that has been entrusted to him.

The hon. member for Transkei made certain suggestions, and I do not think he expects me to comment on all of them. Salaries and allowances must be taken into reconsideration, he said.

The allowances.

I think the hon. member is aware that the police do receive an allowance, an allowance of as much as R300. These allowances go up to R300 and they decrease until the person in question receives nothing, i.e. when he earns R2,640 per annum. Those allowances which the police receive and which the ordinary public servants do not receive, are supposed to compensate them for the particular work they perform. This also applies in respect of the uniform allowances and the circumstances which the hon. member mentioned here. I do not want to haggle with him about the salaries paid to the police. If hon. members think that the salaries are not good enough, that is a matter which is not determined by the Minister, but by the Public Service Commission. Representations are made to the Public Service Commission and increases are eventually obtained through that channel. As regards the Bantu language, they receive a special allowance if they can read, speak and write such a language. It is not much; it is only R4.50 per month. As regards medical provision, I honestly feel that the police cannot complain about that. They receive totally free medical services.

I spoke of medical services for police pensioners.

That is a subject on its own. Previously it was the position that if a policeman retired, he no longer received medical benefits. I want to mention in brief the following change: Recently the police founded their own private scheme. It is actually in the form of a group insurance scheme for the purpose of providing retired members, or members who have resigned from the Force, with medical services. Apparently the hon. member is raising objections because a certain section of those persons have been eliminated. However, it had to be done, otherwise the scheme would have been an uneconomic one. If I have the time to explain it to the hon. member, he would become convinced that it is uneconomic to include everybody. We had to draw a line somewhere. That is why some of those persons were unfortunately eliminated. The hon. member also referred to the allowances that have to be paid in the Transkei. We have dealt with that matter before. It is impracticable. We cannot grant allowances in this area and in that area. Where will it end? Of course, we do grant allowances to those people who are temporarily sent to our borders to capture terrorists, but we cannot do so in respect of persons sent to the Transkei and to other areas in our country.

If civil servants can get it, why can policemen not get it as well?

If they are in the employ of the Transkeian Administration, it is a different matter, but if they are in the employ of the S.A.P., under the command of the Commissioner of the S.A.P., there is no good reason for granting them those allowances there and not at other places.

The hon. member for Graaff-Reinet referred to the purchase of discharges. I just want to tell him that according to our calculations it costs the State R949 for a six months’ course for a student at the Police College, whereas it costs R1,791 for the ten months’ course. As regards reservists, this is another matter he raised. We have had a very good response on the part of the Whites. We have 17,626 Whites on the reservist list. At the moment the scheme is showing a slight downward trend, because the encouragement to make the scheme flourish is in point of fact no longer there. However, amongst the Coloureds, the Indians and the Bantu the response is not as good. As regards the Bantu, at Soweto last year we established a reservist group, which has been quite successful. It has been so successful that it seems as though we may also extend the scheme to other Bantu townships. I think this more or less covers all the points raised here.

Vote put and agreed to.

Precedence given to Revenue Votes 7, 8 and 9.

Revenue Vote 7.—“Cultural Affairs”, R3,722,000, put.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 23.

House Resumed:

Progress reported.