I move—

1. (a) Saturday, 15th October, shall be a sitting day, the hours of sitting being— 10 a.m. to 12.45 p.m.;2.15 p.m. to 6.30 p.m.; and
2. (b) the hours of sitting on each sitting day, on and after Monday, 17th October, shall be—

I should like to inform hon. members what business must still be disposed of. Items 1 to 9 on the Order Paper for to-day will have to be disposed of; they include the usual financial measures, the Notice of Motion of the hon. the Minister of Economic Affairs, the Rents Amendment Bill, the Committee Stage of the Bantu Laws Amendment Bill, and the General Law Amendment Bill. Over and above the financial measures we shall try to dispose of these measures before the end of the Session. I hope we shall be able to adjourn by Wednesday. That will be possible with the co-operation of both sides of the House, but the matter will still be discussed by the Whips. However, in order to be able to adjourn on Wednesday, it is essential that we sit on Saturday. I do not think hon. members will mind doing that, because they have had two holidays, Settlers’ Day and Kruger Day. In the place of those two days they can therefore work on one Saturday. We shall have morning sittings as from Monday.

Mr. Speaker …

“Legislation by exhaustion”.

This side of the House has no objection to this motion. The hon. the Leader of the House has been informed accordingly, but I see that a member of the Cabinet is very well informed because he talks about “legislation by exhaustion”. Well, that is just the position.

Thanks for the compliment.

Sir, I simply rise at the moment to place on record that I hope in future the Leader of the House will give serious attention to the question of sitting hours in the closing stages, that is to say, when night sittings take place every night and when there are morning sittings as well. I have protested previously on behalf of this side of the House. There is very clear evidence at this stage that there is exhaustion … [Interjections.] No. I am not referring to members of the Opposition only; I am talking generally. It is not in the best interest of Parliament that we should sit these hours and pass legislation in this way. I simply place this on record because the Leader of the House is sometimes in the habit of saying that if you do not say these things, you are not opposed to the motion. I am just making it perfectly clear that we do not like this; we are agreeing simply for the sake of co-operation and with a view to finishing the Session.

I am under no illusions in regard to the attitude of the Opposition. Had I been a member of the Opposition my attitude would have been precisely the same. I do not like sitting every evening and I do not like morning sittings, but as I have said on a previous occasion, there is a job of work that must be done and this has been an exceptional Session as hon. members know. We had a short Session in the beginning of the year; hon. members were very anxious to get away at that time so that they could take part in the election campaign; they did not enjoy it very much but they nevertheless fought an election. We now have this second Session, in which we have to get the financial measures through the House. Hon. members know that all the contentious legislation was dropped. We have only dealt with the financial measures this Session, for which there is a fixed time limit, and one or two Bills which I think hon. members will agree are absolutely essential. I can assure the Opposition that in a normal session, if there is the usual co-operation between the two sides of the House, we can as far as possible avoid abnormal sitting hours and expedite our work even more than we have done in the past.

Motion put and agreed to.

I rise to oppose this particular recommendation. I want to point out the position so far as the three State-owned forests are concerned which are referred to in this particular recommendation.

These forests, Ngoya, Nkandhla and Qudeni, are in Zululand. They are three out of probably four forests of that type left in the whole of the Republic. I believe that it would be a tragedy for South Africa if anything were to happen to these forests, if for any reason whatever they should be destroyed or if they should be so treated that their whole character is changed. These forests have a long history. Whereas in the past it was very often the case that the Bantu people destroyed their forests, these forests, particularly the Nkandhla and Qudeni forests, were the traditional tribal places of security to which the people of the Zulu tribe fled in times of distress and trouble. This was the place to which they went to seek sanctuary, throughout the early years of their tribal history. What we have before us now is a motion to have the control of these forests taken away from the Department of Forestry; they are to be taken out of the schedule of demarcated forests. According to the case presented to the Select Committee, they will then fall under the control of the Minister of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure. We are given to understand, and indeed the Minister of Forestry in the discussion on his Vote, made it clear that in the case of Ngoya it is proposed to transfer the control to the Department of Bantu Administration, and we were so informed in the Select Committee by the departmental officials concerned. These three forests will now go to the Department of Bantu Administration where they will be proclaimed as nature reserves. Sir, we cannot debate the purpose for which they are to be used hereafter, but the first step towards that is to have them deproclaimed as forest areas under the control of the Department of Forestry where, having been demarcated forests, they cannot be used for any other purpose until both Houses of Parliament by resolution approve of their being taken away from the demarcated areas. Sir, it is on that point that I want to address you. I say that these forests are a national asset to South Africa. They are something which, once destroyed, can never be replaced. Do you know, Sir, all over the world, in every civilized country in the world to-day, and in some of the newly emerging states of Africa, Governments are setting to work to try to keep these vestiges—and it is only vestiges that are left —of vegetation of the type that we have in these three forests. Extreme steps are being taken by some governments to protect the remnants of their primeval forests and here we come along and apparently in a spirit of abandon, without due regard to what the outcome may be, we are prepared to have these forests released from their present control. I have already said that we cannot deal with the purpose for which they are to be utilized hereafter, and that is unfortunate. I do not think that an opportunity will be given to us under our parliamentary procedure to deal with that particular point; it is most regrettable, so we have to make our plea at this stage and voice our protest at this stage.

Sir, here we have a national asset of such value that its value cannot be assessed in terms of money. The value of these forests cannot possibly be determined in terms of money. We cannot determine their value in terms of the value of the timber there if the trees were cut down and sawn into planks. Their value lies in the nature of the woodlands and in the fact that it has taken centuries to build up those forests. In the White Paper that we have before us it is stated that in the case of Ngoya—this was read before the Select Committee—“It is considered of great scientific value as it contains rare indigenous vegetation which has disappeared elsewhere due to cultivation of the soil. It is the intention of the Department of Bantu Administration and Development to proclaim this reserve a nature reserve”. Sir, this has disappeared elsewhere. With the sole exception of one other forest that I know of, those three forests are the sole remaining areas of that type. Sir, this area comprises some 9,000 morgen. Can we afford to throw away 9,000 morgen for some petty consideration, because of the amount of land that is involved? We are dealing here with an irreplaceable gem, a jewel which belongs to South Africa. It belongs to you. Sir, as much as it belongs to the people who inhabit Natal. It is a national asset. In the same way as, for example, the Tsitsikama Forest or portions of it, are reserved, so in this case too we have portions of this forest which are preserved, not for the local inhabitants, not for the present generation. Sir, these trees have taken centuries upon centuries to grow. What is to be their future when once the protection which is afforded to them as proclaimed forest areas, is withdrawn? What will happen after that? There will be no real protection and in this House the complaint will be heard hereafter that whereas in the past, under the control of the Forestry Department, there has been a certain amount of nibbling round the edges, poachers have got in and have destroyed wild life. Once the protection of the Forestry Department has gone, that is the end of the real protection, with the man on the spot to defend the interests of South Africa. It may possibly be claimed that I am objecting to the Bantu having control of these forests. Sir, the Bantu people are part of the people of South Africa, and the heritage of South Africa is the heritage also of the Bantu. The sea belongs to them and the Tsitsikama Forest belongs to them, and these forests belong to them just as they do to the Coloured people in the Cape and the White people all over South Africa. This is not something which belongs to one racial group only. It belongs to South Africa and it is the natural heritage of the whole country. Why do we open the door to allow the axe and the box of matches to get in to destroy this irreplaceable asset, for the sake of a mere 9.000 morgen of land? I think it is a national catastrophe. This is something we will regret all our lives, that we ever took part in voting away our rights to the protection of these forests which we have enjoyed so far and which should be maintained. Let the years go by and let us see what the future holds, but as the years go by I am sure that South Africa more and more will say: Leave your primeval forests alone; leave them as they were for our children and our grandchildren: leave those parts as they were in the days of our forefathers. We will object to this clause and we will vote against it.

I cannot blame the bon. member for South Coast. He told me they were going to oppose this matter, although it was actually a unanimous vote. But I accept the objections of the hon. member. Sir, if you have listened to the hon. member, you will appreciate that if you had not been convinced, you should now be convinced that this recommendation is correct, and that the Department and the administration made the right recommendation to the Select Committee. If you listened well to the beginning of the hon. member’s speech, you would have heard that he told us that the Bantu regarded this forest as a sanctuary and that they took refuge in that area in certain times of distress. Now that this forest reserve is surrounded by Bantu areas, the hon. member still expects the State to look after it. Let us presume the hon. member is correct and that the State should retain this stretch of woodland inside the Bantu area. Does he expect the State to take steps to prosecute those natives on certain occasions? But what makes the entire administration even more difficult is the fact that the Department of Forestry owns this stretch of land inside the Black area. It has to exercise control over it and to administer it. But it is clear that this area will be proclaimed in terms of the Trust Act of 1936 as a nature reserve under the control of the Trust.

That is as far as the matter goes, and we have to decide whether it should be handed over to the Trust for protection and conservation as a nature reserve, or whether the Department of Forestry should retain it as a separate forest reserve. But the third point relates to the 1936 Act, to one of the things that the hon. member has always adhered to, that one cannot have a Black spot inside a White area, but the hon. member is now suggesting that he wants a White spot inside the Black area under the control of another Department. It will give rise to a very difficult position and the administration costs will be very high. It will be difficult to control that spot in that area, and we therefore had no hesitation in accepting this recommendation. I hope the Committee will accept this proposal unanimously, because I consider it in the best interests, not only of both Departments but also of this forest reserve, of which the hon. member has such a high opinion, just like all of us on this side.

I want to lend the strongest support to the hon. member for South Coast in the case he presented here. The hon. member for Christiana said that one of the reasons why they were in favour of this, was that the hon. member for South Coast had said that that forest had served as a place of security to the Bantu in the past; it had been a sanctuary to them. That is correct, but that was 50 years ago. Those circumstances have changed altogether, and the present position is no longer what it was then. They did that because their existence was threatened. They sought security there, but that does not apply to-day and that argument therefore falls away completely. One hears that its control will now be much better than it was under the Bantu, but it will still remain State-owned land, and a higher degree of control by the Bantu will be brought about there. That position will be cleared up. This is not altogether a case of a White spot inside a Black spot. This is State-owned land. It is not private property situated inside a Black spot. It comes under the control of the Forestry Department, and the only people who will have access to it will be the forestry officials, and their numbers will be reduced and more Bantu will be employed there. I do not think it is necessary to say much more about the matter. The hon. member for South Coast made out such a strong case that we cannot but vote against this.

I appreciate that the hon. member for South Coast as a Natalian is concerned about these forests.

He raised the matter in the Committee of Supply and I tried to give him certain assurances then. But I want to give to the Committee the actual extract under which this arrangement was made. It has nothing to do with fires and boxes of matches. It only has to do with better administration of the area. I want to read from an official document—

So right round these areas are Trust lands—

So it is all connected with the administration—

As I told the hon. member for South Coast, the management of this reserve will come under the Forestry Department because it is to be a nature reserve, and this is just a simplified method of administration. But I appreciate that the Natal members are trying to make a song and dance about this matter which is merely an administrative one. Now they say they are so concerned about the scientific value of this bit of land and we are throwing it to the wolves. [Interjections.]

Of course, I am also concerned about it. I want to quote another extract in which the question was asked whether the Department of Forestry would continue to do the management of these reserves, and the reply was given that “the Department of Forestry would continue to manage it as an agent for the Bantu Trust”. The Department of Bantu Administration will issue permits necessary for administration. The hon. member wanted to know whether entry permits would only be for one racial group. It will be for all racial groups, and moreover the University College of Zululand will, as in the past, still be allowed to carry out forest research. So what is all this atmosphere that here is a wonderful heritage that we are throwing away? I want to tell those hon. members that this side of the House is more concerned with preserving the heritage of South Africa than they are.

It is all very well for the hon. the Minister to gibe at the hon. member for Natal, but we have to sit here and watch that Minister act as he does and we certainly have no trust in him personally. It is to us very important that these forests should be transferred to a body which will have no real interest in their preservation and protection. We wish them to remain in the care of the Department which is concerned with the conservation of forests. The Minister seems to think there will be better administration if they are transferred to another Department and then they are left in the care of his Department, but why must it always be his Department? Why is it not left to the Forestry Department? The Minister has not held this portfolio long, otherwise I am sure he would realize that the axes and the boxes of matches have done untold destruction to this country and that we are faced with a problem that we do not know the ecology of our own forests or our lands. We are setting out now to destroy the bed of the Orange River and at the last minute the Government has put a few ecologists in, the few they have, to try to determine what will happen when the water covers certain areas. There will be changes in that area which we will never discover or understand. Here we have in Natal three virgin areas, three areas where we can say at least man has not destroyed them, he has not so far as anybody can tell interfered with the development of the insects, of the animals, of the plants. If we are faced with problems in other parts of the country, we will be able to send our scientists into those forests to try and find the solution of scientific problems there, and not only in the immediate environment of that area, but all other areas of the country which have been disturbed.

You are wandering very far away from the point.

We believe that these forests should be in the hands of people who wish to protect them.

I wonder if the hon. members who have been put up by the Government side have ever been through these forests under discussion. I very much doubt it. The hon. member for Christiana, who spoke first on the Government side, about the advisability of taking these forests over, I wonder if he has ever been to Zululand where these forests are situated?

I have.

I sincerely hope he has been there. He has had experience of what happens to areas when they are handed over to groups …

Order! I cannot allow any further repetition. Every hon. member has been repeating previous arguments.

Sir, I would like to ask the hon. the Minister and the hon. member for Christiana whether they have driven through these forests and whether in fact they appreciate …

Order! That question has been put.

I did not put that question.

By whom was it put?

Sir, I am asking this question again.

The hon. member cannot continue to repeat his question.

Mr. Chairman, if we cannot debate the question of these forests, am I allowed …

The hon. member is allowed to debate the question, as long as he can make a new point.

I cannot make new points as far as these three forests are concerned.

Then the hon. member cannot go on repeating what has been said before.

You see, Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister has referred only to one forest, but there are three forests under consideration and he has not replied to the question in regard to the other two forests. I wonder whether he knows those places. I do not think he cares. He read a report here which was quite irrelevant in so far as the arguments which I have to put forward are concerned. My arguments are personal arguments.

What arguments?

The hon. member for Heilbron. who appears to know so much and actually knows nothing. always makes speeches by way of interjections. I think I know a little bit more about this matter than the hon. member for Heilbron. I want to know what justification the Minister has and what reasons has he for transferring the control of these forests from one Department to another? Is it because his own side has not enough confidence in him to control these forests? [Laughter.] This is a very serious question, because in the past the forests have been particularly well preserved and controlled and managed. I do not know when a forest fire last took place in any of those areas. But what has happened suddenly to necessitate the transfer of the control of these areas from this hon. Minister to the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration? Sir, these are fantastic forests. On the admission of the hon. the Minister himself, who stood up just now, they contain specimens, both botanical and of natural animal life, which do not exist anywhere else. The hon. the Minister has admitted that.

Are they now going to be destroyed?

Sir, I want them to remain as they are, and I believe South Africa wants the position to remain as it is. We do not want it changed, It is beautiful as it is. It is an asset to this nation. Can this hon. Minister tell us what is going to happen to it under this new control, and why has he been prepared to transfer it so easily from his control to somebody else’s control? I will tell you why. Because they want to say: We are giving to these people everything that is in their area. That is all, Sir. This is just to justify …

Now we know why you are making this speech.

This is being done purely to justify an argument and to try and illustrate a policy which does not exist. That is why it is being done, and in the process South Africa is going to suffer. I am very dissatisfied and I object most strongly to the transfer of the control of these areas from the Department of Forestry, where it belongs, to the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, where it does not belong.

Mr. Chairman, you will appreciate that I am forced to enter this debate, and I must observe that it is a rare experience to witness to what an extent the hon. members of the Opposition want to identify themselves with the problems of Zululand. They lost the Zululand seat because they would not devote enough attention to Zululand at the time, and now they come here today and try to act as advocates, not for the voters of Zululand but for the trees of Zululand. We could say of them “They cannot see the wood for the trees.”

The point is that this matter has received attention from all angles. Representations were made by various bodies, public bodies in Zululand, which followed the correct channels, and we are satisfied with the present position. We welcome the proposed step. We in Zululand were concered about the position that obtained there, and we therefore welcome this transfer with the sole object—and that is exactly what the hon. members of the Opposition are also asking—of preserving the ecological value of those forests, preserving them in the best interests of the country, for the protection of the wild life and the vegetation there. Our motives are exactly the same. It is a pity that an attempt is being made to make cheap politics gain from what is in actual fact a purely administrative measure, and we appreciate that what is happening here virtually amounts to a mere book entry. We therefore want to thank the Select Committee for the recommended step. We also look forward to the conservation of what is our own, also in our land, and we hope the day will come when even greater protection will be afforded under this new dispensation to create a nature reserve there so that the University College of Zululand, inter alia, may also use those forests for research by their botany departments. We are also grateful, as the hon. the Minister assured us, that all race groups will be permitted to enter those forest reserves, and that his Department will be responsible for preserving and looking after those forests in the final instance. We trust that it will be done even more efficiently than at present.

The hon. member for Zululand started off as if he was addressing a political meeting in his constituency. He said that the United Party could not see the wood for the trees, and that is why we lost Zululand. Mr. Chairman, I want to tell the hon. member that he and the Party he represents are only interested in the votes they can get, and they are not interested in the preservation of what is of value to this country and to perpetuate

Order! The hon. member is making a point that has been made ten times already.

Let me say further that where the hon. member for Zululand said that we could not see the wood for the trees, shall I say that he cannot see the trees at all. Let me add that he is blinded by ideological ideas …

Order! The hon. member is talking without saying anything.

Sir, I shall leave the hon. member there. I think this boils down again to the same argument we had in this House yesterday when we were discussing the recommendations of the Bantu Affairs Select Committee. Once again this becomes a point where it is a question of the removal of what are considered White spots which are completely surrounded by Bantu areas.

Order! The hon. member is repeating again.

The point that I wish to make, Sir, I do not think has been made and that is that these are not merely White spots as such as we have dealt with in the past. These are White spots of a particular significance.

Order! That point has been made before.

On a point of order, I do not think this point has been made.

The hon. member for South Coast made that point.

He has just denied that he made it.

He said the same thing in different words.

The position is this, Sir, that here we have three forests, and the hon. the Minister of Forestry has given us some indication with regard to what is to be done with one of them. The other two are: the Nkandhla forest, between Eshowe and Nkandhla, and the Qudeni Forest, situate between Nkandhla and Nqutu. The question is whether control should be retained by the Department of Forestry and whether the protection afforded—and let me say at once it is wonderful protection—should be retained, or whether it should be passed over to some other Department. I fail to see the point in the argument raised by the hon. the Minister when he says that it is merely to facilitate administration that the forests are being transferred from one Department to the other, but that administration will remain in the hands of his Department. I think this is merely a flow of words, Sir, and is just a prelude to some further steps which are going to be taken. Let me say that the flora and the fauna in these Reserves are unique; they are not only rare but they are unique and, as has been pointed out, their ecological value is quite beyond price, it cannot be assessed. People from all over the country, in fact not only from South Africa but from overseas as well, go to these forests, not only for their scenic beauty, but for their scientific interest. Once these forests are transferred from the control of the Department of Forestry, we are afraid that they will come under the control of some body which will not allow the free passage of people in and out of these forests. With regard to the University College of Ngoya, referred to by the hon. member for Zululand, they use it now, Sir, and the transfer of the forests from the Department of Forestry to the Department of Bantu Administration is not going to affect the implementation of this policy in any way at all. We feel that control should be retained by the Department of Forestry, and that this should not be transferred to any other Department. The forests are being transferred to the Department of Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure, as a prelude, it appears—we know definitely in the case of one; we do not know in the case of the other two—to further moves.

You do not know what you are talking about.

We oppose it entirely.

Mr. Chairman. I wish to raise three new points in regard to this matter. Firstly I want to refer to the memorandum dealing with the transfer of these three reserves. The hon. the Minister of Forestry stated that the Ngoya reserve—I assume he was quoting from the same document—was to be proclaimed as a nature reserve and would continue to be administered by his Department.

No, not administered but managed.

He said that it was to continue to be managed by his Department. Heaven forbid that we should plead that anything should remain under this Minister’s control. My question to the hon. the Minister, Mr. Chairman, is what is to happen to the other two reserves to which this memorandum does not refer. It states that Ngoya is to be proclaimed a nature reserve, and that his Department will continue to manage it. The same reference has been made by other speakers, but there has been no reference to the future of Qudeni or Nkandhla. Are Qudeni and Nkandhla to be proclaimed as nature reserves in the same way as Ngoya?

Read paragraph (4) and you will have the answer.

Paragraph (4) does not deal with the question of the future administration as nature reserves of Qudeni and Nkandhla. It is all very well to say in answer to our opposition that this area is not going to be lost to posterity because Ngoya is to be proclaimed as a nature reserve, and will therefore be preserved for posterity. Quite clearly the other two reserves are not to be proclaimed as reserves. Paragraph (4) to which the hon. the Deputy Minister refers reads—

Now, the “above manner” is that they should be handed over to the South African Bantu Trust, and that the Ngoya forest shall be proclaimed as a reserve. There is no reference whatsoever to the future of Qudeni or Nkandhla, and I ask the Minister of Forestry, who is handing over these three forests, to give the assurance now to South Africa that Qudeni and Nkandhla will be protected in the future as nature reserves. If he cannot give it, I ask the Deputy Minister to give that assurance, because there is certainly no assurance of any sort given in this document. “The above manner” refers to paragraphs (1), (2) and (3), and nowhere in those three paragraphs is there any reference other than to the administration by Bantu Administration. We are not prepared to see Nkandhla and Qudeni sacrificed for normal use. They contain, just as Ngoya does, valuable assets for posterity which we wish to see preserved. Unless they, too, are to have some protection, this House would be acting irresponsibly if it were to hand those areas over for normal occupation. That is what this resolution asks. It asks us to hand them over to Bantu Administration with no guarantee and no assurance in regard to two of the three forests.

I challenge the Deputy Minister to stand up now and to say, for South Africa to know, that Qudeni and Nkandhla forests will be proclaimed as nature reserves and that it is his intention to do so. If he does not do that, South Africa is entitled to assume that Forestry is abandoning control over a natural heritage.

Now, Sir, I want to turn to the second point raised by the hon. Minister for Forestry. That was that this was an administrative change because it would be easier to administer these areas under Bantu Administration, but that having handed over control he would then continue to manage Ngoya. He is at the moment controlling it. Now he is going to hand over control and then take back the management. One Deputy Minister and the Minister for Bantu Administration are here. I want to ask what is wrong that the Department of Bantu Administration and the Department of Forestry cannot find some method of working together in harmony. What is it that causes these two Departments to have so much friction that Forestry can no longer control three forest areas surrounded by Bantu areas. Because that is the argument of the Minister of Forestry. He said this has to be handed over because it made the administration easier. I want to know what is wrong now under the present circumstances; why cannot he administer them. What is the Minister of Bantu Administration doing that is making it difficult for the Minister of Forestry? [Interjections.] Yes, they must answer, Mr. Chairman. If it is awkward and inconvenient now and if there is friction now then we are entitled to know what is awkward, what are the difficulties, and what is the friction. What is the Minister of Bantu Administration doing that makes the Minister of Forestry throw up his hands in despair and say, “I have to hand over control—I cannot manage this any more.” Unless we are told what those difficulties are, then we are entitled to reject this as a reason for transfer. Either it is a justifiable reason; either the Minister for Forestry is correct and it is an acceptable reason, or the Minister for Forestry is wrong and it is not an acceptable reason. I ask the hon. the Minister or the Deputy Minister …

Order! The hon. member has been making that point over and over again.

But I cannot get an answer, Mr. Chairman. I think the point is clear, but now I want to deal with the third point made by the hon. member for Zululand. He said, “Hierdie is maar ’n boekinskrywing.” It is a book entry. I challenge that statement. This is not a book entry. This is not merely the handing over of an area for administration by another Department of the Government of South Africa. This is the removal of an area from the control of a Department of State of the Republican Government of South Africa, the Republican administration, to that of the Department of Bantu Administration, who, by law, as the Bantu areas develop, ultimately will hand over control over these three forests to an independent foreign country. In terms of the Bantu homelands pattern, as happened in the Transkei, once there is local self-government, once there is a self-governing territory, the ownership and the title deed to this ground is handed over to the self-governing territory. The dominium of these three forests is therefore not being transferred merely from one Department of State to another, but the recipient of this title is merely an interim, a temporary holder of the ownership. [Time limit.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to interfere with the little games of the hon. member for Durban (Point). I realize that he is out to create this political atmosphere, as were the other hon. members of the Opposition who spoke. When I discussed these forest reserves, I spoke specifically of Ngoya because the hon. member for South Coast raised the matter of Ngoya. Now the hon. member has accused me of not wanting to reply in the case of the other two forest reserves. The position is quite clear, had the hon. member tried to make a point of finding out. The position is that these two forestry reserves are going to be handed over to the Bantu Trust. I am talking about the two which the hon. member made such a feature of in his discussion, namely the Nkandhla and Qudeni forest reserves. The hon. member seems to think that the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and myself are at daggers drawn. He wants to know how it is that two Departments cannot work together. But that is just what has happened. The Secretaries of the Departments got together to work out the best way of administering as well as protecting these two forestry reserves. What was their decision? I received a note from the Department which says the following. “As long as the ground vests in the Forestry Department, that Department cannot do any afforestation because the area concerned is too small. But if it is handed over the area can be administered and can be run through the Department of Bantu Administration. The plantations established after transfer will be in the form of wood lots. These small forests will be protected as is the case with all indigenous forests throughout South Africa.” What is the hon. member trying to do? Does he not realize that the whole basis is to conduct a better administration and to ensure that these forest reserves can be efficiently maintained. There will be a forester. The open ground will be afforested and a forester placed in charge of the forest. So what is this all about? There is only one reason, Mr. Chairman. The hon. members are so bankrupt of political propaganda that they try to create one out of nothing at all.

The Committee divided:

Tellers: G. P. van den Berg and P. S. van der Merwe.

Tellers: A. Hopewell and T. G. Hughes. Recommendation accordingly agreed to. Resolutions reported and adopted.

I wish to raise one or two matters with the hon. the Minister, the first of which is the question of a report which appeared in this morning’s Cape Times under the heading “Coloured Teachers’ Pay Delays Bring Debt”. In that report it is alleged that certain Coloured teachers have not received their pay in due time and in fact, according to this report, they have not received their pay for several months. I feel that it is my duty to bring this to the notice of the hon. the Minister and to give him an opportunity of making a statement in regard to this matter. The report indicates that I made certain inquiries, which I did, and the information which I received from the Department does not tally with the report in the Cape Times. I may say that my information is that although some months ago, when there was a change-over to the computer system the Department certainly had its teething troubles and the payments were not made as quickly and as readily as might have been the case, they overcame their teething troubles and that everything went well thereafter. My information is that there is no record of any delays, except perhaps in one or two cases. I think that in the interest of the teachers themselves as well as of the Department, the Minister should clarify the position, and I hope he will do so. There is no doubt that any delay in the payment of salaries will cause difficulties for the teachers because they rely on their monthly salary cheques. But no doubt the Minister will clarify the position and allay any fears in the minds of the teachers. I leave it at that for the moment and ask the Minister to give us the explanation later.

Now I should like to refer to war veterans, blind persons and old-age pensions, which are referred to in this Vote. I have indicated before, and I shall do so at every further opportunity that presents itself, that there should be no difference in the pensions paid to Whites or to Coloureds. I believe that any man, irrespective of the colour of his skin, who has volunteered to fight for his country and is maimed to such an extent that he is unable to pursue his normal life, should receive the same compensation, irrespective of the colour of his skin. I particularly want to make out a case for the blind man or the man who has lost an arm or a leg or is maimed in such a way that he cannot pursue the work he would have done had he been fit and well. We have no evidence as to how far a Coloured man who was blinded or who has lost his arm might have gone in life. He might have become a doctor or a professional man earning good wages, but because he is Coloured he gets half the pension of a White man. That is wrong, and it applies to other pensions as well. I want to ask the Minister to use his influence to see that pensioners should not be discriminated against. I want to refer to what I regard as a most unfortunate action on the part of the Government. Last year the then Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions, Mr. Serfontein, introduced an amending Bill in which provision was made for increased pensions for Whites only, and when we raised the question why non-Whites were excluded from these extra benefits the Minister said that he was only concerned with the pensions of Whites and that we must raise this matter under the vote of the Minister of Coloured Affairs. If the Minister looks it up he will find that there is an increase for the White pensioners but not for the Coloureds. I sincerely trust that by the next session of Parliament the Minister will put that position right in regard to the Coloureds. I do not think it is right or fair that when the cost of living has gone up the effect is much greater for the Coloured man than for the White man, because the additional cost of living is a greater percentage of the Coloured man’s income than in the case of the White man; he should not be discriminated against merely because he is Coloured. I think that is completely wrong and I think it is high time, in this enlightened age, that we forget the question of colour in looking after our aged and disabled. I have given the example, and I want to give it again, of Coloured people living side by side with Whites, at any rate before the Group Areas Act, paying the same rent and paying the same for their food, and yet the Whites get twice the pension that the Coloureds get. I think it is high time for us to look after the aged Coloureds and that we get rid of this old pre-historic mentality that a Coloured man must of necessity live at a lower economic level than a White man and therefore he must get less. It is because we keep on paying them less that they are at a lower economic level. We are to blame for it. It is not the Coloured man’s fault. He wants to rise economically but we do not want to help him to do so, and we do so in every phase of our administration, including salaries and pensions. According to a report in the Press, the question of school teachers’ salaries is being discussed by the Council for Coloured Affairs. How the news leaked out I do not know, because I understand that the proceedings there are in Committee and one cannot attend unless invited. But I am very thankful that the matter has been raised because I had intended raising it here anyway under this Vote. Now that it has been raised I am sure that the Minister will give serious consideration to these representations and I hope that something will come of it. [Time limit.]

I shall not reply to what the hon. member for Boland has just said. I shall leave it to the hon. the Minister himself to do so. I have listened very attentively to the debate up to this stage. There is one thing I want to say at this juncture and that is that for the first time in many years there is an underlying acknowledgment on the part of the Opposition that so much has been done in respect of Brown community development over the past years under this Government that even the Opposition appreciate this fact. Never before has Brown community development in this country been proceeded with at the rate at which it has been proceeded with during the past years. The Brown man is to-day under this Government exchanging his old shadowy and ambiguous position on the fringe of the White community for a completely new dispensation, and is becoming a population group with its own rights, its own residential areas, its own spokesmen and its own management bodies. There is a whole new order and dispensation in respect of the Coloured. I want to say that the latest signs also indicate that all of us want to get away once and for all from the former set-up when the vote of the Brown man, as a member of a minority group, was simply a cynical and barren political factor in the political wrangles of the Whites. Hon. members opposite have also given the impression of subscribing to the statement that I have just made. I detect a new atmosphere in which we can give renewed attention, within the borders of the White man’s area, to finding those lines of demarcation which are necessary for good neighbourliness. I say good neighbourliness because none of us wishes to perpetuate a dual symbiosis in which White and Brown will be in constant friction with one another. Particularly in the Western Cape we are destined to live alongside one another in our time and in that of our children and our grandchildren. Having emphasized these few basic truths, I want to add that in this new atmosphere which I detect the Brown people must also appreciate one truth more than ever before, and that is that the primary responsibility rests upon the Brown people themselves not to disappoint White idealism in regard to their future position in the South African set-up. More than ever before the Brown man will have to consider and attach the necessary importance to this responsibility which rests upon his shoulders in respect of White idealism for the creation of his own future. The Brown man’s own future actions can assist further in creating and strengthening a national state of mind which, in its turn, can give further momentum to a future dispensation. With these few basic remarks I want actually to discuss another point in respect of which I should like to request the kind attention of the hon. the Minister in particular.

A few years ago the Government granted the Coloureds a rock-lobster concession. If I remember correctly, the unit granted to the Coloureds was about 5,000. Let me say immediately that I personally consider this to have been a very fine gesture on the part of the State towards our Coloured population for what they themselves have done in this industry over the years. I may mention that there are at present about 3,000 Coloureds employed in the rock-lobster industry, people who have done good work in developing this industry to where it is to-day. I take it too that the time will come when consideration will have to be given to granting the Coloureds concessions in the fishing industry as well. Over the years the Coloureds have shown signs of having a great affinity for the fishing industry and they have made an important contribution towards the development of this industry. This first gesture on the part of the Government, of granting the Coloureds a rock-lobster concession, was a very fine one, but I fear that the position at the moment is that unless we can determine future policy in respect of the development of this concession, this fine gesture may degenerate into a large bone of contention between Whites and Coloureds.

The present situation in practice is simply that rock-lobster concessions are being developed at all the smaller harbours where there is established White enterprise—places like Saldanha Bay, Paternoster, St. Helena Bay, Eland’s Bay and Lambert’s Bay. If we are going to develop this concession to the Coloureds, this unit of 5,000, at one of these particular harbours, friction will immediately occur between the Coloureds on the one hand and the established White interests on the other. I very respectfully want to ask the hon. the Minister this afternoon: Has the time not come when we should consider the development of some central place on the west coast from which the Coloured will be able to participate in the fishing industry? There is hardly any spot available along the entire coastline at the moment, but at this stage I am thinking of a place in the constituency of the hon. member for Piketberg in the vicinity of Doringbaai. There are no White interests vested there as yet and I should think it would be an ideal spot which ought to be investigated with a view to the possibility of building a fishing harbour for the Coloureds at this particular place, a fishing harbour from which they can participate in the fishing industry. I think too that we shall have to act quickly in this regard and I want to ask the hon. the Minister to be so kind as to give his attention to this matter as soon as possible. If this matter is not attended to and the particular concession which has been granted at this stage has to be exercised at one of the other harbours, friction will occur, and I think that all of us will admit that this would not be in the interests of good relationships between Brown and White in our country.

Mr. Chairman, I must congratulate the hon. member for Moorreesburg who, it seemed to me, was putting forward United Party policy, and I would like to congratulate him, but I cannot refrain from mentioning, before I deal with any practical matters affecting the Coloured people, that it is very interesting that more than 100 members of the Government side who are supposed to be present in the House, are conspicuously absent when the problems affecting the Coloured people in this country are discussed. More than 100 of the members opposite are absent.

Mr. Chairman, when the House adjourned last night I was dealing with the question of Coloured emigrants, particularly teachers, many of whom have left South Africa for good. As the hon. Minister will know, the figures have been cumulative over the years, in fact ever since the Government took over Coloured education in 1964, because that is when it all started. I do not blame this hon. Minister, but I do say, and I say it advisedly, that I think his predecessor had quite a lot to do with it. Take the question of resignations. In 1964, the first year of the Department’s takeover, 83 primary and 13 secondary school teachers resigned; by 1965 the number of resignations had increased to 323 primary and 36 secondary teachers, making a total of 359; by the end of 1965 the resignation figure was 455, and the total for the period 1964-5 has now reached 562, which is a very grave and serious position to have reached. My information too is—it appeared in the hon. the Minister’s departmental magazine called Alpha, at the end of last year—that there were vacancies at the end of 1964 for just under 2,000 Coloured teachers throughout the Republic. Most of these posts had to be filled by January, 1965 —and one wonders, Sir, whether in fact they were ever filled at all and, if so, whether they were filled by people who were adequately qualified.

A breakdown of the figures shows that more than 70 school principals were needed at that time. There were 24 vacancies for qualified teachers, qualified to teach at training colleges in the Cape alone. There was a shortage of more than 250 secondary teachers at the beginning of 1965 in the Cape Province. Add to this the number of primary teachers required. At the beginning of the same year more than 1,000 vacancies for primary teachers existed in the Cape. In the Orange Free State, where all but 800 children, according to the Minister’s own figures, are already in schools there was a shortage of 51 teachers; in the Transvaal the shortage was 60 secondary teachers and 150 primary teachers. I do not have the figures for Natal, but they would obviously send the total up. Yet at the end of last year, of the 1,555 secondary and high school teachers in the Republic’s Coloured schools (these are the Minister’s figures) only 403 had a university degree, in other words plus-minus 4 per cent. The Minister was quite unable to tell me at that time how many of the remaining 1,152 had passed matriculation or even the senior certificate, although they were teaching in secondary and high schools.

Sir, it is quite true that with the exception of the Free State, there has been a slow but steady increase in the enrolment of Coloured pupils in secondary schools in the Republic over the last few years. One must be honest and fair in regard to this. But, Sir, only 1,500 Coloured boys and girls wrote matric or senior certificate at the end of 1965, and these represent our potential teacher graduates. In other words, out of the total Coloured school-going population in the Republic, only 3.1 per cent are in high schools at the present time. I consider that a very disturbing figure when you realize that these pupils have got to produce sufficient teachers to deal with an ever-increasing population. The outstanding need surely is for more training facilities for Coloured students who hold senior certificates or matriculation, because these can either go on to training colleges and obtain primary higher certificates, or they can go to a university and obtain a degree. I do know that this hon. Minister, or his predecessor, and his Department, inherited a very difficult situation from the Provinces in this regard. I am not trying to pull a fast one over this matter.

If one goes back to the record of the Cape Province, where the bulk of the Coloured people live, and which is as good a yardstick as any, one finds that 561 prospective Coloured students applied for admission to a training college at one time or another in 1961, when the Province still administered Coloured education, and only 207 could be accepted, owing to an acute shortage of accommodation. Then, still under the Provincial Administration, in the Cape Province, 635 students applied in 1962 for enrolment at a training college to become teachers and only 227 were accepted. In other words, 408 potential teachers were rejected. Those figures come from the report of the Superintendent-General of Education for the Cape Province for the years 1961 and 1962. So there was no shortage of volunteers. That is my point. But can the Government really convince us that they are doing anything to deal adequately with this shortage?

You see, Mr. Chairman, when the Government took over Coloured education from the Provinces, one of the main reasons given in this House by the hon. the Minister’s predecessor was that, under centralized control, Coloured education would be given a very much better deal than it was getting under the Provinces. I just wonder how much this has changed at all, or is showing any indication of a change for the better. I do not have to impress upon this House the fact that the introduction of compulsory schooling for Coloured children is desperately needed for sociological, economic and purely humanitarian reasons. The hon. the Minister is quite aware of that, and the solution to this is largely, if not entirely, dependent upon the training of a sufficient number of teachers. As far as buildings are concerned, after all you do not only need to have nothing but new buildings, you can have “opslaankamers” (I forget the name in English), you can rent buildings, you can do all sorts of things, if you are in a jam. But it is an appalling thought, and I think an alarming one, that hundreds of volunteers for the teaching profession are still being turned away each year, that large numbers are resigning and that a large number are leaving the South African shores for good, while we are facing a problem, particularly in the Cape Province, of thousands of Coloured children not getting proper education. There are 28,000 Coloured children not yet in school in the Cape Province to-day. It is a big problem, but these children have no hope at all in the immediate, or as far as we can find out, even the distant future, of being enrolled in schools and taught the rudiments of learning and discipline, which is absolutely essential for them and for the Coloured community as a whole.

From the figures given to me in the House by the hon. the Minister on 23rd September this year, it appears that in 1964 a total of 737 male and female primary student teachers completed their training in the Republic and in 1965 the figure was 753, an increase of 16 primary student teachers in one year. It is pathetic. I am sure the hon. the Minister will agree with me that this situation gives rise to very grave concern. If you take the four universities at which Coloured students are allowed to enrol as graduates, Cape Town, Natal, University of the Witwatersrand and the University of the Western Cape, you find that the total enrolment at those four universities in 1966 was 601 potential graduates. One wonders what percentage of those are likely to become teachers. At the University College of the Western Cape there are 176 taking diplomas of one kind or another, but not all of those are going to be teachers, Sir. I would say that as far as the primary schools are concerned, the situation is just as alarming. On 1st June, 1965, that is, a year ago, 840 student teachers were enrolled for their final year, while there was a demand at the beginning of 1965 of plus-minus 2,000 teachers. What is being done to improve the position? That is what we would like to know. It would appear from replies given by this hon. Minister that no new primary teachers’ training institutions have been completed in the Transvaal, the Free State or Natal since the Government took over, and that in the Cape one institution has been built in replacement of existing buildings since the Government took control on 1st January, 1964.

And Bellville?

The hon. the Minister is quite correct, a new training college in Bellville is being built; it will house 400 pupils and will have a hostel attached to it, but. Sir, in reply to my question the hon. the Minister said that it would be completed by December 1969, that is three years from now. Progress in thius regard can hardly be said to be spectacular. In fact I think the situation is becoming increasingly alarming. [Time limit.]

I think the hon. member for Wynberg will pardon me if I do not respond to what she said. She brought certain problems to the attention of the hon. the Minister, and I presume he will reply to them. But one thing is quite clear to me, Mr. Chairman, and that is that the Opposition has accepted the policy of separate development of the National Party, or else there are some of them who are becoming Nationalists. In fact, when the hon. member for Wynberg was speaking last night, it occurred to me that they were going to lose their only little ewe-lamb, because she was speaking right up the street of the National Party, and amongst other things she also said repeatedly that she appreciated the problems of the Government and that she also wished to help. But it is perhaps no more than fair to expect a normal human being to agree that under the policy of separate development, the four-stream policy, everyone is offered an opportunity to achieve maximum development, and that also applies in particular to the Coloured community.

Mr. Chairman, I want to confine myself more particularly to the 20,000 Coloureds on the East Rand who will be resettled at Boksburg in terms of the Group Areas Act. A great deal has been done there, and some 10,000 of them have already been settled at Boksburg. The fact that the Coloureds were formerly distributed all over the East Rand and were settled in Bantu locations everywhere, gave rise to great inconvenience and humiliation for those Coloureds. Nowhere did they belong or feel at home, and the only future that awaited them was total assimilation by the Bantu. But as a result of the establishment of a Coloured area of their own at Boksburg, the Coloureds on the East Rand are now offered an opportunity to develop their own identity and pride for the first time in their history. As I have said, a great deal has been achieved in such a short period, if it is borne in mind that it is not so long ago that the area was proclaimed a Coloured area. Beautiful houses have been erected there, to which the owners have received title, two primary schools and a high school have been erected, the advisory committee is functioning very well, and there is the most cordial co-operation with the local authority. For the first time in history it is occurring to those Coloureds that they should learn to live and develop independently. This opportunity is now being created for them, and they are grateful for it. Here I have a letter that I received from a certain Mr. September. He is chairman of the advisory committee for Reiger Park. Inter alia, he writes the following (translation)—

This is merely a small token of gratitude on the part of the Coloured community towards the Government.

There are one or two minor matters, however, in respect of which I should like to make a plea to the hon. the Minister on behalf of the Coloureds of Boksburg. The Coloured Development Corporation endeavours to encourage the Coloureds in the sphere of industry, commerce and finance. Now, I hope the Coloureds at Boksburg will also receive assistance for the establishment of their own undertakings there in Reiger Park. I doubt whether there are any Coloureds in that community at present who have the skill or the necessary business acumen to establish their own business undertakings. I therefore plead that the Coloured Development Corporation should establish a supermarket for the Coloureds in Reiger Park in order that the Coloureds may do their shopping there and at the same time develop their own business undertaking in which they will of course have a share. Then there is also the question of the Indians in that area. At the moment we have the problem that there are still Indians in this area. When the area was declared a Coloured area, however, they had the perspicacity to have themselves reclassified as Malays. Consequently the Indians are still there, and the Coloureds do not want them there. I now want to ask the hon. the Minister to bring his influence to bear to have these reclassified Indians removed from there to enable those Coloureds to develop on their own.

Then there is another minor matter. At the moment those Coloureds are buying their liquor in White areas, and because there are no facilities for them, they simply drink that liquor right where they buy it. This is of course an undesirable state of affairs, and it is also giving rise to considerable inconvenience for the Whites. Section 106 of the Liquor Act provides that at least 20 Coloureds are required for the establishment of a bottle store of their own. I want the hon. the Minister to use his influence in this regard, too, to have Section 106 amended in order that the Coloured Development Corporation itself may establish a bottle store and create the necessary facilities where the Coloureds may go and drink their liquor.

As in the case of all communities, the Coloureds also have the problem of young people who leave school at a too early age and who are still too young to be absorbed in the labour market. To those should be added, of course, the group who are not willing to work. I now want to plead with the hon. the Minister for the establishment of a youth camp for Coloureds on the Witwatersrand, with the object of combating this loitering and its concomitant dangers. The Coloureds realize that this Government is offering them their only chance of retaining their identity. I therefore want to plead for the rapid development of this area as well, not only for the sake of the Coloureds themselves, but also for the sake of better relations between the Coloureds and the Whites. Then there is a final point. We know that it is the policy of the Government to take industries to the labour. I therefore want to plead that we should also establish industries in this Coloured area, industries which may create a labour market for them. In view of the fact that there are 20,000 Coloureds there, this may serve to make matters more convenient for them, and at the same time we would create a labour market for the Coloureds.

I have no quarrel where the hon. member for Boksburg asked for more development in the area where the Coloured people live in his constituency but I do want to take issue with him where he said in his opening remark that the Coloured people were beginning to accept the Government’s policy of apartheid more and more.

I have got the proof here. You can read this letter.

For that one letter I can produce 20 as evidence of the opposite. There is only one way in which to prove whether the Coloured people are in fact accepting the Government’s policy to a greater degree and that is by submitting the Coloured people to an election where they can choose for themselves. To produce one letter does not prove anything. The only way to put it to the test is to allow the Coloured people themselves to choose their own representatives. Then we shall see whether the enfranchised Coloured people as a whole approve or otherwise of the Coloured policies of this Government. However, that is something which this Government won’t allow.

But I should like to come to another point altogether. When discussing the position of Coloured teachers, the hon. member for Wynberg mentioned that there was a need for training more personnel. In regard to that I agree with her 100 per cent. My view is that this is a question which should be tackled on lower levels and not merely by discussing the enrolment of more teachers under the existing system. I say this because we cannot have teachers if we do not have enough pupils in secondary schools. And, quite obviously, there is not sufficient raw material at the present stage to go to the teacher training colleges. The position at the present in regard to Coloured education is parlous. If we take the Cape as an example one can see how little hope there really is in the foreseeable future to have compulsory education for Coloured children in this province. This, as the hon. member for Wynberg and others as well have said, is essential if we are to have a well-developed Coloured community capable of taking its place in the socio-economic life of South Africa. On the 28th of last month the hon. the Minister himself gave an interview to the Cape Times when he said that it was impossible to introduce compulsory education generally due to scarcity of teachers and lack of both school and hostel accommodation. Of course, I agree with him that it is. One would, however, expect the Minister’s estimates to reflect that situation. If one, however, consults these estimates one finds to one’s dismay that in so far as both revenue and loan estimates are concerned less money is being asked for this year both for the establishment of new schools and expenditure on existing ones. I do not, therefore, see how the Minister can hope to improve the existing situation if he is not prepared to provide more money for new schools or for the administration of existing ones The situation is really very serious indeed. Earlier this year I placed a question on the Order Paper. I wanted to know the number of pupils enrolled in each standard in Coloured schools in the Cape Province during the years 1964 and 1965. The figures the Minister gave me reveal an alarming situation. The situation is alarming because of the number of dropouts. The position is that a fantastic number of pupils drop out from one class to the next. Let us look at the number of children who were in Sub A in 1964 in order to determine how many of them went on to Sub B in 1965. Making the necessary allowance for the number of children who had to repeat Sub A as well for those who had to repeat Sub B, one finds that there was a drop-out of several thousand children. In fact, in this one year there was a drop-out between Sub A and Sub B of 12,461. A similar statistical picture presents itself throughout all the standards. Thus the drop-out from Sub B to Std. 1 was 6,700 odd. Altogether, i.e. up to and including the final year of the primary schools, 59,482 children dropped out in schools in the Cape Province in one year. This to me is a fantastic figure. I am aware, of course, that the vast majority of Coloured people cannot afford to keep their children at school, particularly as school attendance is not free and compulsory. Children have to pay for books in the Cape I understand. At any rate, most Coloureds cannot afford to keep their children at school and these children have to go out and work in order to augment the family income. When one notices that there were only 5,736 Coloured children at school in the Cape Province in 1965 whereas some 73,000 odd children appeared to start at Sub A, one realizes that there is this astonishing drop-out from one standard to the next. And I do not think we will find a different picture if we go further back. This is an astonishing figure.

It has always been the case.

But it is time that we should do something about it. It is time that we do something to improve the general living conditions of the Coloured people and to increase their ability to send their children to school and to keep them there. Until we are able to get a large Coloured school-going population in the secondary schools we are never going to be able to get enough young people from whom we can recruit teachers, something which is essential before we can introduce compulsory education for Coloured children in the Cape and, for that matter, in the rest of the country. I am now talking only about the Cape because about 80 per cent of the entire Coloured population live here. I have no reason to believe that the situation is any different in any of the other provinces. If anything at all, it may even be worse for all I know.

What is the hon. the Minister going to do about this? How does he propose to assist the Coloured people in keeping their children at school into the secondary classes so that there will be the raw material from which to recruit teachers? If we do not have an educated Coloured population in South Africa we can forget about having Coloured people who are really going to contribute to the general welfare and economic well-being of this country. There is no point in thinking that as a substitute one can set up these voluntary camps. The idea behind these camps probably is to keep Coloured children off the streets. That is all very well as far as it goes but it is certainly not all very well as far as the future utilization of the young Coloured people is concerned. The way to set about this problem is to tackle it at its base and that can be done only by making it possible for the Coloured people to keep their children at school. We should increase the economic opportunities for Coloured people, remove the difficulties that they have of becoming skilled or semi-skilled workers and to assist them generally to raise their standards of living, and not to make things as difficult as possible for them. These camps are all very well as a temporary remedial measure but even then I still have my reservations. Until we see the Bill in terms of which these camps are going to be set up I shall for the moment keep these reservations to myself. The important thing, however, is that this is no long-term solution. A long-term solution will be to see to it that Coloured children do not start in Sub A and before reaching Std. VI 80 per cent of them have dropped out. The figures the Minister gave the other day to the effect that from 80 to 90 per cent of Coloured children of school-going age are at school do not mean a thing, especially when one finds that that percentage applies only to Sub-stds. A, B and Stds. I, II and III, while after that there is only a minute number of Coloured children attending school. Therefore I say that the hon. the Minister’s figures are absolutely meaningless. These figures would only mean something if these children, instead of acquiring a mere functional literacy, if that, were to proceed to secondary, schools, and I want to direct the hon. the Minister’s attention to the enormous importance of attempting rather to spend more money on secondary than on primary schools and on secondary schools rather than teacher training at this stage, because one first has to build up one’s secondary school population before one can hope to establish more primary schools and to train more teachers. [Time limit.]

I want to begin with the hon. member for Karoo, who opened the debate. When I listened to the hon. member for Karoo I really got the impression that the Coloured population was suffering great poverty and hardship. One got the impression from his arguments here that there was really nothing good which could be said in this House about the entire Coloured development. I am really sorry that such a picture has been held up here. No reference was made here by the hon. member to any progress which had been made in regard to the upliftment of the Coloureds in recent years; in fact, that matter was omitted altogether. It was not only omitted, the hon. member went on to ask: “Where is the upliftment work which the Government is talking about?” To me it was a great pity that the hon. member also asked when we were going to cease preaching this myth that there are training facilities for the Coloureds. I shall give you the facts in regard to this so-called myth in a moment.

When one listens to the speech which the hon. member for Karoo made and one bears in mind that he is a representative of the Coloureds—that he is a man who knows the province; a man who knows the Coloureds and who has also travelled about in that area —then one must come to the conclusion that he is either turning a blind eye or that there are other motives lurking behind his argument. I am thinking only of what I have seen with my own eyes in the short time I have been Minister of Coloured Affairs, and the hon. member for Karoo has, as Coloured representative, been dealing with Coloured affairs much longer than I have in my capacity as Minister. If I bear in mind what I have seen in this short time, then I simply cannot understand the sort of argument which the hon. member made here, and I can do nothing else but ascribe ulterior motives to his speech, something which I would not like to do in this House. I am thinking of places like the training college in Oudtshoorn which I opened recently; I am thinking of the technical college here in Bellville South; I am thinking of the vocational school at Athlone which I visited and which my predecessor opened last year. There one has the most modern buildings I have ever visited. The training college at Oudtshoorn stands head and shoulders above the White training college there. The Athlone vocational school has laboratories which one seldom finds in a White institution of its type. The technical college which is being built at Bellville is going to provide the best facilities, and to get up in this House and ask where the educational facilities for the Coloureds are, and make an appeal to us to try and get away from the myth that we are supplying the Coloureds with educational facilities, is in my opinion the height of irresponsibility because it is quite incorrect. It is extremely irresponsible of any member in this House, and particularly of a Coloured Representative, to come forward with these stories. The hon. member has stated that he cannot see what is being done for the upliftment of the Coloureds. Is he really as blind as all that? Surely he ought to know what is happening, not only here in Bellville South, but elsewhere as well? Surely he, as a representative of the Coloureds, ought to have knowledge of what is being done for them? Does the hon. member not have any knowledge of what is happening in the North-Western Cape? Has he not yet visited the Coloured areas there, as I did the other day? If he were to pay a visit to that area he would find when he arrives at Eksteenkuil, on that irrigation island in the Orange River, that what one has there is the most modern development scheme one could possibly wish for; he will then see that this Government has, out of its funds, built bridges there at Eksteenkuil, between the islands, in order to increase the cultivation. He will see buildings there which were never there before. Thanks to the actions of this Government Eksteenkuil is in a position today where it can compete with any of the White irrigation islands as far as production and appearance are concerned. When one visits the other northern areas, such as Concordia, Steinkopf and the Richtersveld, then one is impressed by the wire fences which have been put up by this Government in recent years, one is impressed by the boreholes which have been sunk and by the windmills which have been erected to supply water for drinking purposes, and one can then understand why the Coloureds have at the meetings where I have come into contact with them, expressed their appreciation towards the Government for what has been done in recent years to uplift them. But then the hon. member for Karoo comes along and asks in this House: “Where is the upliftment work which is being done for the Coloureds?”, and says that we must get rid of the myth that we are doing something for the Coloureds. Mr. Chairman, to my way of thinking that is a disgraceful attitude and I want to express the hope that that hon. member will, in his representation of the Coloureds, in future do so in a more objective way if he desires the attention of the Government in this connection. To come here and pretend that the Coloureds have no avenues of employment; to come here and pretend that the Coloureds are poor, unemployed people, is to my way of thinking to present a totally distorted picture. Two or three years ago the Department of Labour and Coloured Affairs established a Directorate of Labour precisely so as to go and visit those so-called unemployed Coloureds in the rural areas and recruit them for work, not only here in the Cape but also in places which they wanted to be transferred to. This Directorate found that there were actually much fewer unemployed Coloureds in the rural areas than is often maintained: that Coloureds who wanted to and who could work but who were unemployed were much less in number than was being maintained. But apart from that the Department of Coloured Affairs, with its regional representatives, established machinery for the Coloureds in the rural areas, machinery which they had never had before, and which enabled them to approach those regional representatives and state their needs to them, not only as far as work was concerned, but also as far as social problems were concerned. Surely it is a distorted image if one tries to create the impression here that those people are merely being abandoned to their fate. It befits no responsible person to do so.

The hon. member for Karoo also complained that we allegedly wanted to leave the Coloureds in an inferior position in business. It has been asked whether the Coloureds will always have to fill a secondary position in business; in other words, must they always be labourers? Mr. Chairman, what lies behind these kind of questions? Did we not a few weeks ago conduct a debate in this House on a motion which that same hon. member introduced in regard to the position of Coloureds in industry? Did we not on that occasion inform this House at length of what was being done through the Coloured Development Corporation to help the Coloureds to start their own businesses? Did I not on that occasion inform this House that we had already allowed 130 business undertakings to be established? Did I not on that occasion inform this House that this Government had already appropriated an amount of more than R2,000,000 for this purpose? Did I not on that occasion inform this House that the greatest problem was not money but in fact the lack of trained Coloured businessmen? Does that not make any impression on the hon. member, or do such facts and such truths not suit his politico-propagandistic purposes? This Government has in recent years done more by far for the Coloureds than any Government has done in the past. As far as those rural Coloureds, those to whom I referred a moment ago, are concerned, more has been spent on them in the past five years than was spent on them in the previous 50 years. Is that not something which one must be proud of? Why must the hon. member now try and disparage that upliftment work and pretend that the Government is being unfair towards the Coloureds? Is that how the hon. member wants to serve the Coloureds? Is that how he wants to serve South Africa? No, if one loves one’s country and one’s people then one does not say things like that.

. The question has been put here whether we always want to keep the Coloureds in a secondary position in business. Do you know to what extent we want to keep them in a secondary position? I am going to mention to you the latest example to show you to what extent we are going to keep them in a secondary position. We have just decided, with Cabinet approval, to establish a very large business centre for the Coloureds at Athlone. On a very convenient site a supermarket for the Coloureds is going to be erected, a supermarket which will be run by Coloureds, as far as we will be able to find them. This supermarket will be situated in a double story building, a building which will have air-conditioning and which will be comparable with any other supermarket existing in the city, with offices for Coloured attorneys and other professional people. It is a project which will cost R660,000. Does that prove that we want to keep the Coloureds in a secondary position in business? We are not only going to give them something to be proud of there; we are not only going to afford them avenues of employment there. No, through the establishment of such a supermarket we are going to afford them the opportunity of being trained in business, so that I will not for the next five years have to make this same speech in this House. We are going to afford them the opportunity there of being trained in managerial ability and managerial skill, because that will not be the last supermarket which is going to be erected for the Coloureds. If this one is a success, as it ought to be, and we have been able to train Coloureds there, then those Coloureds will be used to establish another supermarket on another site which will be to the benefit of the Coloureds.

I am sorry that the hon. member for Karoo also deemed it necessary to speak disparagingly about the liquor restaurants. I issued an invitation in the previous debate which I want to repeat here; I would appreciate it if the hon. member would pay a visit to a few of those liquor restaurants in the Athlone-Grassy Park-Lansdowne areas, as the present Prime Minister and myself have done. He would then see that through these liquor restaurants, which consist of neat modern buildings, a new drinking pattern is being created for the Coloureds which is one of the most important things for uplifting them socially. Apart from the avenues of employment which are being offered to the Coloureds there, and apart from the fact that the Coloureds are now themselves able to acquire business interests there, the Government has, through these liquor restaurants, succeeded in developing a new drinking pattern for the Coloureds and in uplifting them socially. Is that something to be derogatory about? Must everything which is being done by this Government be disparaged, no matter how beneficial it is for the Coloureds? Is that the light in which the hon. member regards his function in this House? Does he regard it as his task to disparage everything which is being done by this Government for the Coloureds, no matter how good it is for them?

Reference was also made here to the question of mining activities. That was also done on a previous occasion. It was done here before the election by the hon. member, probably with the intention of creating another scandal which could be used against the National Party in the interests of the United Party. It collapsed like a pricked bubble because it had no substance. This allegation was repeated the other day in the debate on the Vote of the hon. the Minister of Mines and I have had to listen to it again now. This allegation is that we begrudge the Coloureds prospecting opportunities in the Coloured areas in Namaqualand. Does the hon. member not know that this Government has granted the sole right to prospect for precious metal in those areas to the Coloured Development Corporation? Does the hon. member not know that? Of course he knows; he knows it very well but politically he finds it very inconvenient to know because it is in fact a very useful political weapon which can be used to create the impression that we do not even want to grant the Coloureds the right to develop in their own areas. There is something else which the hon. member also knows only too well and that is that for the first time now a specific area, Leliefontein, has been allocated to the Coloureds where Coloured diggers can now form a company to develop that area for their own benefit by searching for diamonds. Not only have they been granted the right to form a company but the services of the Coloured Development Corporation has been placed at the disposal of these diggers to help in the formation of that company. All that is needed is that those diggers should now get to work and make use of these facilities which we have offered them and which they have never before had. But the hon. member has seen fit here to complain that we are not giving the Coloureds any share in the development of their own area.

The hon. member also referred to the farms of Coloureds outside the Coloured areas, and he asked what was being done for them and why they were not receiving the assistance which the Coloureds in the proclaimed areas were receiving. Of course they can receive assistance from the State. Those farmers can receive the same assistance from the Department of Agricultural Technical Services as White farmers, and they can also receive assistance from the Land Bank, provided their land is an economic unit and provided that they have the necessary security, on the same conditions as apply to Whites. Why must the impression be created that the Coloureds are being discriminated against?

Reference was made to apprentices and it was asked why Coloureds could not enter more trades. I want to tell the hon. member that it is not a question of this Government’s laws. The Apprenticeship Act, as the hon. member ought to know, does not discriminate on the grounds of race or colour. But where a fine sieve is being used is with the employers and the apprenticeship committees. After all, it is the employer who must decide whether he wants to enrol a Coloured as an apprentice in his garage in order to be trained as a mechanic. We cannot force them to do so. Because we have had this attitude over the years that employers are not inclined to take in Coloureds as apprentices I asked the two Departments with which I am concerned, Labour and Coloured Affairs, to put their heads together and try and arrive at an arrangement whereby we can request and encourage employers to enrol Coloureds in other trades besides building work and furniture-making. For, with a view to the development which the urban areas of the Coloureds are going to undergo in terms of our policy of separate development—we are for example going to have to have garages there owned by Coloureds—it is obvious that there will have to be Coloured mechanics. We realize only too well that there are not going to be mechanics in Bonteheuwel one day if apprentices are not enrolled now. and that is really why I want to express the hope that this can be done. Perhaps the hon. member for Karoo can also be of assistance. I understand he owns a garage.

No, I have retired.

That is a pity, otherwise the member would certainly have made use of this invitation to enrol Coloureds as apprentices. My appeal is therefore aimed at the employers to consult with the two Departments and see whether we cannot enrol Coloureds as apprentices in other directions as well so that we will in the future have trained Coloureds available to do the skilled work in their own areas which will be expected of them.

I do not want to say much about work reservation because I have already discussed it at length in this House. But the hon. member has raised the matter again and I just want to say this. Work reservation is not and has never been intended to be aimed at the Coloureds. On the contrary, it was only intended to operate for the sake of good relationships between White and non-White workers, as it is in fact also doing. I have said repeatedly that work reservation must be applied fairly and humanely. The proof is that we have had no complaints from Coloureds that unfair action has been taken against them, and I repeat my invitation for the umpteenth time to-day that, if there is any member in this House, specifically the hon. member for Karoo, who knows of any Coloured who has been prejudiced or deprived of his job as a result of work reservation, he must mention it. He need not even bring it to my office; he can just mention it across the floor of this House and I shall take immediate action. But as far as work reservation is concerned, let me say that the Coloureds have now seen that it is not something which is working against them, but that, on the contrary, it is something which is also protecting them in the fields of employment where they are being threatened by another group with a lower standard of living. My impression to-day is that the Coloureds have realized what work reservation is and they understand it so well that they are no longer criticizing it, and the least we can expect is that we as Whites who know better should not seize the opportunity of using it as a means of incitement.

I have also been asked questions in regard to school matters and the fact that pupils are not receiving free books. The position is that in the Transvaal and Natal there are free books. In the Free State a system of free books was introduced shortly after education was transferred to Coloured Affairs, and as far as the Cape is concerned the books are distributed free according to requirements and according to the means test. The hon. member for Karoo ought to know about that because when this arrangement was made he was member of the Executive Committee. We are merely maintaining the status quo until such time as a uniform system can be worked out which can be applied throughout the country.

It has been complained that the buildings are not being erected quickly enough. That is not as a result of a shortage of money. lust as in the case of Coloured businesses which cannot be erected quickly enough, it is attributable to the manpower shortage. We do not have the manpower to erect those buildings quickly enough. There is also the question of compulsory education. As I have already said in my interview with the Press the position today is that there are approximately 418,000 Coloured children attending schools in our country. That figure represents approximately 90 per cent of all the Coloured children who are able to attend school. But if we were to introduce compulsory education at this stage, we would be faced with the problem that we would not have enough staff. A number of hon. members complained that we do not have enough teachers. That is so, and I shall indicate in a moment what the reasons are for that being the case. We do not have enough buildings either, and that is why it would be foolish to introduce compulsory education if one does not have the accommodation, not so? Until such time as we have the accommodation we shall have to exercise patience.

Complaints were also made about Coloured children leaving school too soon. That is a matter I am also concerned about, because if a child leaves the school too soon he loses, apart from his academic progress, something else which is very important, and that is discipline. If he leaves his school at a very early age he is not a potentially good worker either. That is the child who drifts about from one job to another and later on becomes a “won’t work”. I am worried about that, but it is not only the duty of the State. Surely Coloured parents also have a duty? Surely they must also see to it that their children go to school? One cannot merely cast the blame on the Government; it is not as if we can grab each child by the arm and drag him off to school. It is also the duty of the parent. [Interjection.]

The hon. member for Karoo also complained that we only have one Coloured university and that there are ten White universities. What a terrible charge to make against the Government! What an image this will again create outside! But the hon. member omitted to say that there are 35,000 White students as against only 450 Coloured students. Must we now go and erect four universities for the 450 Coloured students? He used the same silly argument as far as the language medium is concerned. He said that at the University College of the Western Cape the language medium is Afrikaans. The hon. member has stated with a tremor in his voice that we must know that the Coloureds, apart from the Afrikaners, are actually the only Afrikaans-speaking group in the world, but then we are blamed for the fact that the language medium at that university is Afrikaans. It is dual-medium. Instruction is given in both languages, but do you know, Sir, what the experience of the lecturers at that university has been? Frequently a Coloured student wants to take a subject such as physics, and he then asks to receive instruction through the medium of English, but after the first term he asks whether he cannot rather receive his instruction through the medium of Afrikaans because he understands that language better. It is not only the Government’s fault that mostly Afrikaans is spoken there. It is spoken there according to need and on request.

It has been said that the vocational schools are allegedly too few in number, and we do not have vocational schools in the rural areas. Of course, one cannot have a vocational school just anywhere in the rural areas because vocational schools are highly specialized. One cannot have a vocational school at every little place like Pampoenpoort or Pofadder. In this respect as well we have made our contribution in establishing enough vocational schools. I have the names here, but I am not going to furnish them now. There are five vocational schools in existence and the introduction of vocational education courses is still being envisaged in Durban and Johannesburg and other places. We have vocational schools in Cape Town, Kimberley, Johannesburg, Port Elizabeth and Durban. They are situated in the major centres and are doing excellent work.

I now come to the hon. members for May fair and Westdene. They spoke about welfare services. I appreciate what they said very much, because I realize, since I have had to deal with Coloureds, that welfare work for them is of the utmost importance. Welfare work must make of them responsible parents and responsible people in society, and it is of fundamental importance to their upliftment. It is of no avail our building a multitude of technical colleges for them if they do not themselves have a sense of responsibility. That is why I find that welfare work is exceptionally important and that it is something we must give our attention to. Our Department has not been idle in regard to this matter. It has been realized how essential welfare work is and as a result of that a special section has been created within the Department, a professional section, which occupies itself with establishing and stimulating welfare organizations amongst the Coloureds. I shall return to this in a moment. Apart from that we have, at the request of the University College of the Western Cape, introduced a course in social work at this University College. One of the first tasks I accomplished when I took over was to establish a chair for educational sociology at this University College, with Dr. Sieberhagen, the future rector, as professor. I did so precisely with the purpose of training the teachers in a sociological approach, for those teachers must not only go and give classes in future, they must also, in the schools where they will be teaching, be able to do their full share as far as service to the community is concerned.

We as Whites will probably still have a task to perform in this respect for a long time to come, and that is why I am glad of the pleas which the two hon. members made in this regard. On the one hand one wants the Coloureds to manage those welfare organizations themselves as quickly as possible. Our experience has been that any person who is visited, or let us call it treated, for welfare reasons—which is an intimate matter—appreciates it most if it can be done by his own people and not by other people who come to help him. That is why we should like there to be Coloured welfare organizations to do welfare work amongst their own people. However, our problem is that if one establishes such an organization to-day, it does not survive for long. That is why it will be the task of White welfare organizations, for quite some time yet, to continue taking the interest they are taking in this Coloured welfare work and in these Coloured welfare organizations. I, therefore want to make an appeal to our White welfare organizations in this country to see to it that welfare organizations are established in those places where there are Coloured communities and to retain their interest in that respect so that those welfare organizations amongst the Coloureds can grow and find their feet.

The hon. member for Moorreesburg has put questions to me in regard to the crayfish quota and the fishing industry of the Coloureds here along the West Coast and he also referred to a measure of friction which could perhaps arise between the Coloureds and the Whites as a result of the application of this crayfish quota. I am aware of this matter. As a result of a previous complaint from the hon. member I gave my attention to the matter. I asked the Coloured Development Corporation to institute an investigation in this connection and the Corporation then concluded an arrangement with the Lambert’s Bay Canning Company whereby this matter was provisionally arranged in such a way that we can assume that the arrangement between the Coloured Development Corporation and the Lambert’s Bay Canning Company will, for the time being anyway, prove satisfactory. However, it is only a temporary arrangement. I am in full agreement with the hon. member that we must reduce and eliminate points of friction, and that is why it is desirable that an investigation be instituted to find a place along the West Coast which the Coloureds will have as their actual fishing harbour. I am in full agreement with the hon. member, therefore, that it is essential that one eliminate friction in that way. Attendant to that a group area declaration will have to be issued. The Minister of Planning who is entrusted with this, informs me that the investigation into a Coloured group area in the Lambert’s Bay area has already been completed. Closely connected with that, of course, is the question of Coloured housing. One cannot build a Coloured fishing harbour if there is no Coloured group area and no housing. These three matters, therefore, are closely bound up with one another. I just want to give the hon. member the assurance that this matter is being gone into at the moment and I want to express the hope that we will shortly be able to find a satisfactory arrangement in this connection.

The hon. member for Boland raised a few matters. Inter alia, he referred to the case of a teacher who had resigned and had subsequently been reappointed in the Department and who was experiencing problems in regard to his pensionable service which had been interrupted as a result. What happens now is that if such a teacher does not apply for a condonation his attempt to have his previous pensionable service acknowledged will not succeed. He must make application, and what is particularly important in this respect is that he must make application to the Secretary for Social Welfare and Pensions who is in charge of such matters. I hope the hon. member will inform the teacher in question about this. The hon. member also referred to the delay in the payment of salaries which was referred to in one of the morning papers this morning. The position here is as follows. The take-over of Coloured education by the Department of Coloured Affairs coincided with the installation of an electronic computer which had to work out the salaries. The electronic era is not as perfect as one sometimes thinks. This electronic computer did not work satisfactorily. It made a multitude of errors and caused an extensive delay. As a result of this delay the officials of the Department of Coloure Affairs had to work practically day and night. I have been informed that as a result of the unsatisfactory operation of this electronic computer, the officials worked 30,000 hours overtime within a year to get these salaries paid out. At the same time, however, a change was made to a new system, a so-called bureau system for working out and handling those salaries. The Department has informed me that as a result of the introduction of the new system the payments of the salaries has been brought up to date. There may be isolated cases which are suffering as a result of that and it may be one of these isolated cases who is taking his grievance to a newspaper and making out that the world is coming to an end. However, I accept what the Department tells me which is that there are no more delays in the payment of salaries. There may be single isolated cases and that is why one wants to express the hope that a mountain is not going to be made of these isolated cases which ought actually to be a molehill. The hon. member also spoke about ex-servicemen’s pensions. That is, of course, a matter which is controlled by the Pension Act—an Act which is not based on unfair discrimination. All that I can say is that the question of pensions is taken into consideration from time to time and when it is taken into consideration again the Department of Coloured Affairs will probably also submit its representations in this regard.

The hon. member for Wynberg spoke about the Coloured teachers who were leaving the country. I want to say that I am sorry when Coloured teachers leave the country. As far as the resignation of Coloured teachers from the profession is concerned, we cannot assume that all of them leave the country. A problem which we are experiencing at the moment arises precisely as a result of our upliftment work. The private sector is drawing such a great number of trained people that it is also attracting Coloured teachers. In this way, therefore, the teaching profession is losing people, and we cannot regard all the teachers who leave the profession as being people who have left the country.

In regard to those who have left the country I want to say that one is, of course, sorry if people leave the country. But teaching is really a dedicated task. It is almost like the work we are doing in this Parliament. If one were not dedicated one would not be sitting here. If one wants to do this teaching work, one must be dedicated to that work. The hon. member for Kensington is an ex-teacher and he knows that it is dedicated work. As far as the Coloureds are concerned, I am convinced that if the Coloureds did not find it a pleasure to teach his own people the teaching profession would not be an attractive profession to him. If he did not teach with dedication he would be unhappy and frustrated. I do not want to chase anybody out of the country, and least of all teachers. I am afraid, however, that if a Coloured is a member of the teaching profession here and that as such he is quite unhappy and he has no desire to serve his own people and wants to leave the country, then he may as well go. However, we are undertaking the necessary training. We have established training centres at 13 places where teachers are being trained. I am not going to mention the names to you. What I am going to tell you is that we have made plans for establishing a new training college on the Rand. I was there the other day. A fine, large site has been acquired for that purpose. There are already quite a few buildings on the site, and the planning is ready so that a start will soon be made with a very fine lay-out of that site. Training centres have been planned for Durban, Port Elizabeth, Bellville and Kimberley. Hon. members can, therefore, see that work is in progress as thoroughly and as rapidly as is humanly possible on the erection of those training centres.

In regard to the youth camps to which the hon. member for Boksburg referred I want to point out that one of the things which I have been particularly impressed by during my visit to Coloured institutions and places, has been the first youth camp which was established at Wellington. This youth camp was established on a site just outside the town. This youth camp is attended on a voluntary basis by juveniles of approximately 16 years of age. They receive 50c per day for attending that camp and they are trained in land service and are disciplined to perform their daily tasks in an orderly and disciplined manner. On the day when I, together with the officials in question, visited that youth camp, they performed a flag-hoisting ceremony there and performed a song of dedication to South Africa which I found very moving. It made me feel that these youth camps are an undertaking which we can develop further. They are apart from the training centres in respect of which I hope to introduce legislation next year. At the training centres it is, as you are aware, a question of compulsory registration. The attendance at the youth camps, on the contrary, is based on voluntary enrolment. When I asked them whether the youth camps were popular, they told me that they were so popular that two of the juveniles had recently run away from the camp. When I pointed out that there were already so few and that two had morever ran away, they told me that those two had returned a few days later bringing a friend with them. It is an undertaking which, in my opinion, can be carried out with very good results. I have listened to the representations made by the hon. member for Boksburg and I will definitely investigate the possibility of establishing a youth camp in his constituency. In fact, my opinion in regard to the matter is that we must have camps at various places. Take for example the West Coast where a fishing industry must now be established and where Coloured fishermen must be trained. Even there one must have a youth camp so that the juveniles are not attracted to the large centres which will deprive those places of their labour. It is a matter which will engage our attention during the next few months and I have every expectation that this will also contribute to disciplining our juveniles and to turning them into the potential useful manpower which we should like to see the Coloureds ought to be.

I wish to avail myself of the privilege of the half-hour, with your approval. In taking part in this discussion I wish to inform the House that the hon. member for Peninsula has decided not to take part in discussions under this Vote because he is a member of the Select Committee that was appointed recently and because he as a member feels that this is a Committee from which we hope much might stem for the Coloured people. For that reason he wishes to be excused from this debate and will not take part in it. In taking part in this duscussion, I wish to assure the House that, if I have any criticism and when I have any criticism in regard to the Department of Coloured Affairs or the Minister of Coloured Affairs, I will have no apologies whatsoever for levelling such criticism. But if I do so, recognizing what the problems are and what the prevailing circumstances are under which the Coloured people are living in South Africa to-day, I will in the first place make certain that if I have criticism, it is true and authentic criticism, secondly that it is constructive with a view to improvement, and thirdly that if I could positively suggest an alternative or make suggestions for the improvement of what I am discussing, I will certainly do so. In the case of appreciation in regard to the Department or the Minister for what is being done for the Coloured people, I have no apologies to anybody either.

It is apparent that we are living in very interesting times in regard to the Coloured people. Suddenly, from sources from which you never expected it before, very great interest is being shown in the Coloured people. While the hon. member for Bezuidenhout. when he was still on the other side of the House, in 1958 remarked that never before was so much spoken about the Coloured people or of the Coloured people in this House until the four Coloured representatives came here, we find that these days more and more is spoken of and about the Coloured people in this House. This might be due to two reasons. I hope that the first reason is the correct one. I hope it is. The White population in South Africa represented in this House by various political parties has come to realize what an important part the Coloured people are playing in the national life of South Africa and indeed what an important population group they are. On the other hand it is also perfectly clear that political parties and politicians that never before gave any attention to the existence of the Coloured people are suddenly taking a very keen interest, and it is quite surprising to find what sources and what personalities you find involved in this sudden interest. For three years as a member of this House I was a member of the United Party, and certainly of the United Party caucus. During that time a certain gentleman by the name of Steytler was the provincial chairman of the United Party. On a certain occasion in 1958 when little me—I had hardly arrived here in Parliament—insisted that I thought it was the right of the Coloured people to at least have a say in the nomination of candidates in their constituencies, this gentleman called a special meeting of the provincial executive with the object of kicking me out if I did not toe the line.

There might have been other reasons, of course.

There might have been other reasons. I did not realize that this Dr. Steytler is such a tender little corn on the toes of the hon. member for Houghton.

Order! Under what item of the Vote is the hon. member speaking now?

[Inaudible.]

Mr. M. W. HOLLAND: Mr. Chairman,

there you are. I said here at the outset …

Order! I asked the hon. member a question.

I am sorry, Sir. I did not hear the question.

Under what item in the Vote is the hon. member speaking now?

I am speaking—I did not look at the item—under the Coloured Vote.

The hon. member must come back to the Vote.

Mr. Chairman, am I permitted under the Vote Coloured Affairs to discuss political aspects regarding the Coloured people?

The United Party caucus meeting has nothing at all to do with that.

With the greatest respect, Sir, I never talked about a caucus meeting. However, Sir, on a certain occasion in 1960 there was a Bill before the House, called the Stock Theft Bill, which was of vital concern to the Coloured people because it contained a clause involving the utmost discrimination against the Coloured people. A certain gentleman by the surname of Steytler was chairman of the farmers’ group in the United Party at that time. When I objected to this Bill I did not gain the slightest support whatsoever. I am just pointing out that all of a sudden personalities and parties who never before showed an interest in the Coloured people are suddenly coming to life.

Sir, I wish to associate myself with a number of requests made by the hon. member for Karoo in his speech here last night. I agree with every request that he made on behalf of the Coloured people. I wish, Mr. Chairman, you would allow me to reply to the interjections by the hon. member for Houghton, which you cannot hear. It will be quite interesting if I could reply. I wish to associate myself with the plea which the hon. member for Karoo made for more high schools for the Coloured people, and for compulsory education. But I cannot help reflecting on what happened in this House in 1963 when the Bill on the transfer of Coloured education was before the House. I adopted the attitude, together with my three colleagues, including the late member for Karoo, that Coloured education over the years had been so neglected and so much was needed. We did that because we had a very good first-hand knowledge and practical experience of the problem. We took un the attitude that we could not concern ourselves any more with from what source the money came, as long as the money became available for the education of the people whom we represented here. At that time I was very disappointed when the hon. member for Kensington, a very greatly respected person and a very great educationist, in joining the debate ridiculed our attitude to a very great extent. He accused us of just conniving with the Minister.

The hon. member for Karoo quite rightly pleaded for more high schools and for compulsory education. This is being provided. But what I want to plead for here first and foremost is for more training centres, for more training colleges for training Coloured teachers. It was pointed out here earlier on by the hon. member for Wynberg that so many hundreds apply for admission to training colleges. but many are turned down and only a certain number are accepted. That certain number is accepted because the facilities are not available. A training college can only take a certain number. Hence, Sir, my plea that to get more high schools and on the other hand to enable the Department or the Minister as such to implement compulsory education which the Act provides for, the training facilities should be extended. I had the privilege a few weeks ago of attending the opening of the training college at Oudtshoorn by the hon. the Minister. I am very proud of the fact that there is such a college in my constituency. But the fact remains that until such time as we have the teaching personnel available, we will not be able to catch up as rapidly as is necessary with this backlog in Coloured education, which is the result of the fact that over many, many years there was always a shortage of money and enough was not being done. Facts and figures were mentioned here about the dwindling numbers of Coloured children as they go from a lower standard to a standard higher, but it is still amazing if one thinks of the number of matriculants passing matric every year in spite of the fact that only 13 per cent of the high school Coloured personnel are qualified to do the work.

The hon. member for Karoo was, I think, a member of the provincial council from 1943 to 1949. He was a member of the Exco, and he was a Coloured representative for four years, and I think the hon. member will bear me out if I say that when one compares what was spent from year to year in those days on Coloured education, there is hardly any comparison. But on the other hand I feel it is my duty to point out that the time has now arrived that the Minister should seriously consider—and here I plead with him in sincerity —paying Coloured teachers the same salaries as their White equivalents with the same qualifications are earning.

The Minister quite correctly mentioned here that the possibilities in private enterprise have improved so much that Coloured teachers are attracted away from the teaching profession into private enterprise. But one of the basic reasons is that you cannot blame a man if he resigns teaching, not for the reason that he is not devoted to his task, not for the reason that he does not want to contribute what he was trained for, to the upliftment and education of his own people. But a man’s basic and first consideration is: What must I sustain my family with; how much more do I need to maintain a standard of living for which I am qualified by my education, by my background, and by my economic development? Sir, while a man can earn more in another capacity, he cannot be blamed for leaving his job in the teaching profession. What has a very great deal to do with it is the fact that we have not gone over, as far as Coloured education is concerned, to paying people the salary for which they are qualified.

It is to be hoped that the necessary funds will be made available—although we are living in a tight period and there are cuts in every Department—to pursue what the Transfer of Coloured Education Act makes provision for. namely that the time will come that we will have compulsory education as a result of the fact that we have adequate buildings, and as a result of the fact that we have adequate teaching personnel. But, Sir, I mention this because I think it is of the utmost importance, despite all the criticism that might be levelled as to what the department or the Government is doing at the moment in regard to education, that it is realized by the White people of this country that their destiny is Integra led with that of the Coloured people. And, Sir, it is to the detriment of the South African population and the national character and the national destiny of the White group plus the Coloured group, to have the White group dragging 1,750,000 people that will increase over the years, undeveloped, underdeveloped, and lacking the basic education, the basic cultural development and the basic economic power that you would expect of such an integral part of the population. I wish to point out another aspect. The hon. member for Karoo made mention here of job reservation. I do not intend going further into that or for that matter the hon. the Minister’s reply. But what I want to plead for is, apart from what the hon. the Minister said in regard to the little effect job reservation had on the Coloured people, that we should now have positive thinking not only on the part of the Government but also on the part of the Opposition in regard to the form of job reservation that existed before this Act came into force but which was never named. And I wish to emphasize in particular an appeal to the hon. the Minister in conjunction with his colleague the hon. Minister for Transport, to see that more opportunities are made available to the Coloured people as far as the Railways and the Transport system are concerned. I wish also to make an appeal to members of the Opposition not to make the existing position to-day more difficult for the hon. the Minister of Transport. I might be ridiculed but I will point it out. We are playing politics. On the one hand we are pleading for an improvement in the economic position of the Coloured people and improved facilities as far as work is concerned. But, on the other hand, as soon as such a concession is made, it is seized in order to make political capital thereof. Last year there was a question on the Order Paper by an hon. member to the hon. the Minister of Transport in regard to the number of Coloured chefs employed on the Railways, ft is irrelevant now as to what the hon. the Minister’s answer was. It was perfectly clear to me that that question was put in order to use outside and to accuse the Government of now putting Coloureds into White people’s jobs. It was used in that sense. That sort of thing must cease otherwise we do not assist the Coloured people. We have had personal experience in a constituency in the Cape recently, where as a result of a shortage of labour an appeal was made to the hon. the Minister of Labour by a certain transport company to make a concession in regard to the percentage of Coloureds that they may employ on their running staff. The Minister granted a concession from 16 to 25 per cent. During the last election a certain hon. member used that in his election campaign in order to prove that this is now a “Klerulingboetieregering”. In that way he tried to earn a few miserable votes to the detriment of the Coloured people. I am not making an attack on the Opposition. That is not what I am here for. But I make an appeal that we cease this sort of thing because by trying to score a political point we are only making it more difficult for the Government who is the only body in a position to grant these concessions. I wish to make a plea here to hon. members and to the Government. We are not living in 1948 anymore. And I wish to say here quite candidly: Thank God those years are something of the past. We are not in 1955 any longer. I am talking now in particular of the general attitude on the part of the White population vis-å-vis the Coloured people.

Those years are past. We are living at a time when due to events in the rest of the world and particularly events in Africa, the White man has come to realize that he has a common destiny with the Coloured person, and the Coloured people, as a result of events, have come to realize that they have a common destiny with the Whites. Sir, we are living in 1966 and I wish to make a plea here. During the years 1948 to 1955 the impression was gained that all discriminatory legislation that was placed on the Statute Book was aimed against the Coloured people. Let that be right or let it be wrong; I am not concerned with what happened in the past, but my plea is that the initiative should come from the Minister, from the Government, in removing that impression. There is a new attitude to-day towards the Coloured people and my plea is that the new circumstance which have arisen should be taken into account and that there should be an amelioration in respect of many issues where the Coloured people still feel that they are not being treated fairly. Sir, we cannot get away from the fact that we have made many mistakes in the past. The word “apartheid” was one of the biggest mistakes; another mistake was group areas; another mistake was job reservation. These things could have been done in a different manner. My plea in all sincerity to the Minister and to the Government and to hon. members on the other side is that while we are faced with the situation that is facing us in the world to-day, we should think and reflect quietly. Let us think and reflect, with the interest of our country at heart. Let us think and reflect in the spirit of the statement made on one occasion by the hon. the Minister of Finance when he said that the outside world must bear in mind that in South Africa we have 5,000,000 hearts beating as one. Let us make the Coloured man feel that his heart is beating in unison with ours and that he has a stake in this country.

Not only in war-time.

That story is nonsense. I think it was a slip of the tongue, if not a slip of the foot. I do not believe in that sort of thing. How can you tell a man that in wartime his heart must beat with yours but once the war is over he must get out. Sir, let us leave these trivial matters aside. I feel that apart from the material things which are being done for the Coloured people in connection with housing and education, etc., the Coloured people must be made to feel that there is a change of heart on the part of the White man in this country because we feel that their destiny is inter-linked with ours; that we have a common destiny and that we do not only want them with us in time of need but that we want to uplift them to become a worthy part, in addition to being an integral part, of the South African population and that they must pull their weight in the same way as the White population would do.

If we look at the Estimates and at the amounts spent by the Department on the general development and advancement of the Coloured population, particularly as reflected in the Coloured Affairs Vote, we see that an amount of R46,500,000 is spent specifically on the interests and the requirements of the Coloured population, mainly in respect of welfare services and education. In addition we notice that on Loan Account the substantial amount of approximately R5,000,000 (R4,181,000) is spent on providing buildings, particularly educational buildings, for the Coloured population. I do not think anybody would deny that the hon. the Minister makes a point of rendering full account of his responsibilities and obligations towards the Coloured community; and in pursuance of what was said by the hon. member for Outeniqua, who has just spoken, we have no hesitation in telling him that we are convinced that the matters which he advocated are carried out and planned in substance by this Government. Mr. Chairman, I want to make a few observations with regard to Coloured Education in particular. Some of the hon. members on the opposite side pleaded for more primary schools; others pleaded for more high schools. The hon. member for Outeniqua emphasized in particular the need for more training colleges for Coloured teachers. I should like to point out that one has to be realistic in providing all these facilities, and that one should also have regard, particularly in providing more high schools and more training colleges, to the development level of the Coloured population and the inherent skills and aptitudes of the population, and that one should not act precipitately. Years ago one of our former university professors carried out a survey with regard to mental aptitude tests, in which a comparison was drawn between the White group and a certain Bantu group. That professor acknowledged that he worked on the premise that those tests would show that the achievements of the non-White group would initially be poorer than those of the White group, but that he was convinced that if he merely persisted long enough and gave those people enough opportunities to improve their achievements, they would eventually attain the same achievement level. In applying those tests he found that the White group developed a certain progress graph and then reached a maximum level. In testing the non-White group he discovered, I would almost say to his disappointment, that the hon-White group did not attain the same level in that achievement test but reached their maximum on a considerably lower level, and that they were unable to improve their achievements any further. I mention this to demonstrate that in our entire approach to the Coloured population and to providing facilities, to the development of the Coloured population and the creation of new opportunities, we should not lose sight of the aptitudes of this particular section of the population and of their hereditary abilities, that we should not accept off-hand that they will also attain whatever the Whites attained, and that whatever is good for the Whites will necessarily also be good for them. If we look at the examination results of Coloured candidates in the junior and senior certificate examinations during the years 1962 to 1964, it appears that in 1962, from a total of 4,143 candidates who wrote the junior certificate examination in the Cape, only 2,257 passed, which is a very low pass-figure. In 1963, 2,229 passed from a total of 4,395; in 1964, 2,428 passed from a total of 4,629, slightly more than 50 per cent. If we look at the senior certificate examination results in the Cape, we see that in 1962, 546 from a total of 1,144 passed; that in 1963, 661 from a total of 1,140 passed. Over these two years approximately 50 per cent of the candidates passed. In 1964. 439 from a total of 1,088 passed, less than 50 per cent. I mention this merely in the context of what I said just now. As regards providing more high schools and training colleges and university facilities, the question occurs to me whether we are making the correct use of the large amounts of money we are spending in respect of the Coloured population. Basically it is probably a good question to ask, and I therefore want to suggest to the hon. the Minister and particularly to the Department of Education that we should not persist un-questioningly in the notion that if we merely build more high schools and more training colleges and if we merely provide more university facilities we are serving the interests of the Coloured population well, but that we should ensure by means of a system of aptitude tests that we are in fact placing those people correctly, and that the Department should endeavour as far as possible, along the lines they are now following, to provide vocational schools in order that people who have no academic aptitude may be trained in vocational schools and in order that people who cannot be trained in vocational schools may be assisted in some other way to become useful citizens of the country and to fill a worthy position and to make a useful contribution in the interests of the country in general and of the Coloured population in particular.

But that is being done.

That is being done. I say this with reference to the unqualified representations made by hon. members, that there should be more high schools and more training colleges. My contention is that there were many Coloured pupils, in view of the fact that only 50 per cent passed, who attended high school and who followed an ordinary academic course but who were unable to derive due benefit from that opportunity. We could probably have made a better investment of that money if there had been better facilities in the field of vocational schools or other technical training. I am therefore of the opinion that in establishing new high schools —because there is a tremendous programme afoot—we should ensure that there is in fact a need for high schools, and that we should ask ourselves whether we should not perhaps establish a technical school or another vocational school in the same vicinity or in the same area. I want to express the hope that by means of ascertaining the actual needs more closely, the actual needs for training, we shall be even better able to serve the interests of our Coloured population in future. [Time limit.]

I hate to contradict the hon. member for Piketberg. He used to be a colleague of mine in the Cape Provincial Council, but when he makes this rather startling generalization that the Coloured people, generally speaking, are not capable of achieving the same academic levels as the Europeans, I think his comments are entirely unjustified in view of the achievements, in the academic and cultural fields, of the Coloured people in South Africa already. When the hon. member makes a plea, which is what he did in effect, for the application of a system of differentiation in our primary and secondary schools for Coloured children, we are 100 per cent in favour of it, and all I would like to say is that we on this side of the House very much regret that a similar programme has not already been introduced for European children. It should have been introduced many years ago.

Sir, I would like to return for one moment to this question of the teachers, and I hope the hon. the Minister will not take it amiss if I say—I very much regret having to say it— that even if the provinces were short of funds when they controlled Coloured education, as indeed they were at one stage, the atmosphere amongst the Coloured teaching profession was very much happier when they were controlled by the province than it has ever been since the whole thing was taken over by the Central Government. The whole atmosphere seems to have changed; it seems to have changed for the worse. Sir, I make no political capital out of this. I find it most regrettable. The fact of the matter is that for all the speeches that may be made by hon. members on the Government side on this subject, an unhappy atmosphere of suspicion, of discontent, and of mistrust, for one reason or another, has been created amongst the Coloured teachers in the Republic, and I most earnestly hope that this hon. Minister will do everything in his power to regain the confidence of many of these Coloured teachers. The Coloured people have come to believe—whether this belief is warranted or not the hon. the Minister will be able to tell us—that the Security Branch maintains a file on the record of every Coloured teacher in the Republic. I am not saying any more on that subject; I would just like the hon. the Minister to give us his comments on this matter.

That is not true; I checked it.

I am extremely pleased to hear that, because this was raised in various quarters by Coloured teachers themselves. I want to ask the Minister something else. I wonder just how free these Coloured teachers are likely to be to have their own views about various things in years to come under the new dispensation. The Minister’s Department issued a circular to Coloured teachers at the time of the Republican Celebrations in which they were encouraged to participate and to get their pupils to do the same. The end of the circular reads as follows—

On their guard against what? Well, the Minister was quite frank in reply to my question and said that no disciplinary action was subsequently taken. Nevertheless a threat was inherent and implied in this circular. I would just suggest—and I say no more than this—that this sort of threat, with all its implications, is not the way, as I see it, to promote contentment, loyalty and enthusiasm amongst a band of professional people. I suggest there might be other, more diplomatic, ways of handling the situation. In regard to the serious exodus of Coloured teachers, the Minister says if they want to go overseas it is too bad: he regrets that they go but if they will not serve their own people he cannot help it. Perhaps the Minister can tell us why they leave. I think many of them left the country in order to escape a system of education which has been introduced since the Department of Coloured Affairs took over. There was none of this discontent amongst them while the provinces controlled education, even though the provinces were short of money.

Now I want to say a word about this question of language medium. In the January issue of Alpha, which is issued by the Minister’s Department. an article appeared beaded “Medium of Instruction”, and the following statement appeared—

What does that statement mean? It seems to me to be a typical Nationalist statement, if I might say so. As far as I can see, it is really another way of saying that the Department is determined to introduce whatever language medium it likes, no matter what the Coloured people think about it. I would say that one thing is quite clear, namely that few, if any, of the Coloured people concerned care two hoots about social aspirations. People who are trying to achieve a degree of education are not interested in social aspirations. It is just a departmental way of excusing any action taken.

When I asked the Minister earlier this year whether the lecturers of the University of the Western Cape used both languages for their lectures, his reply was yes, and yet in the June issue of Alpha there is a statement made under “Typical Questions asked by Overseas Visitors” that both official languages are used as media of instruction, but, as Afrikaans is the mother tongue of about 80 per cent of the students, it is also the principal medium of instruction, and then it goes on to say that English-speaking students are given resumés of lectures. That, of course, is not instructing in both media. The National Congress of the Federal Coloured People’s Party held at Good-wood in July this year passed a unanimous resolution—and they would not have done it without reason. The Congress was headed by Mr. Tom Swartz, Chairman of the Coloured Council, and the resolution was—

I want to remind the Minister, who said something about this in his reply just now, that when his Department claims that 80 per cent of the pupils at the university are Afrikaansspeaking I want to challenge that statement. I have the figures here and the Minister knows that in the Cape we worked with these people for many years. In 1962, just to give the matric figures only. 573 pupils were educated exclusively in English and 588 through the medium of Afrikaans. So according to the report of the Superintendent-General of Education for the Cape. 15 more were educated in Afrikaans than in English. In 1963, 538 were educated through the medium of English and 662 through the medium of Afrikaans, a difference of only 124. So where does this 80 per cent come from which the Minister talks about in his Departmental Journal?

The last thing I want to mention is that when I raised the question of compulsory schooling the hon. the Minister had much to say about it, but I want to ask him whether he is not prepared to reconsider the proposition, which was turned down by his predecessor, that in certain instances compulsory schooling might be started for children up to the age of 14 or Std. IV, instead of taking it right away up to Std. VIII, as the Act lays down? In Natal compulsory schooling has already been introduced up to Std. VIII but, of course, that province is governed by the United Party, so that does not surprise me. But in the Orange Free State there are only 808 Coloured children not in school, as the Minister told me in 1965, and in the Transvaal there were 3,181 not in school. That is 4,000 children altogether. Surely, in three years, the Government could have made provision for the Transvaal and the Free State? In the Cape it is a different matter. Here there are 28,000 children not in school and it is not an easy matter. No one expects the Minister to work miracles over it. But when the report of the Education Council for Coloured Persons was tabled in this House, a statement appeared on page 2—

How could the Department say it had made progress when the Minister told me twice in this House this year, once in February and once in September, that in fact the status quo was being maintained and that there was no hope of introducing compulsory schooling in any further areas as far as he could see? In conclusion I would like to say, with respect to the hon. member for Houghton or anybody else, that the enrolment in secondary schools has been going up slowly but steadily, except in the Free State, and that teacher training and compulsory schooling, apart from any other activities in the educational field for the Coloured people, are the two priorities. Emphasis should be placed upon these from the sociological point of view and from the educational point of view for the benefit of the Coloured people. I hope the Minister will give consideration to the renting of buildings and to double-session classes. [Time limit.]

So far the discussion has made it apparent that there is actually no difference of opinion on the question of the utmost importance of the socioeconomic upliftment of the Coloureds. The position in which the Coloured population has come to find itself is a legacy of the history of the past two to three centuries. We know that the Coloured did not derive advantage and benefit from the period of free development, a kind of laissez-faire period, in which he was integrated with the White institutions. On the contrary, it was to his disadvantage rather than to his advantage, with the result that in course of time he fell further and further behind despite his reputed rights. In due course this laissez-faire period was brought to an end when through the late Dr. Verwoerd the National Party, to its credit, announced a dynamic policy of socio-economic upliftment. Then as now the question was actually what the Coloured people as such needed most in order to retain their self-respect and pride in what was proper to them, considering their abilities, and also the realization that they could be loyal to their Fatherland, the only one they knew—what were these needs? They may be constituted of several nations; they derived from them, but they are on South African soil and here they must stay.

In justice towards the Coloured people, the National Party decided that regimentation and planning for their future were needed, and in planning their economic upliftment they were presented with the prospect of their own local governments, their own church and social communities, their own schools and educational complexes, and their own rural areas. Traditionally, many Coloureds have a rural character, and here in their own areas they could find a haven so that they no longer had to go to the cities. I am particularly interested in these rural areas. They form the focal point of the future independent farming communities among the Coloureds. I want to discuss this briefly, although the rural areas are only a sub-division of the extensive activities of this young Department, which also encompass liaison services, welfare services, education and many other functions for the benefit of the Coloureds, who as yet total not quite 2,000,000, but whom we know will be 5,000,000 or more at the turn of the century. These rural areas, of which there are 19 at present, were incorporated under Act 24 of 1963 and in all cover almost 2,000,000 morgen of land. One of these, in particular, is the settlement Eksteenkuil. There the Coloureds live on smallholdings, and they can apply intensive irrigation on 2,350 morgen. In this way 40,000 souls have found a haven in the rural areas. These rural areas are situated almost entirely in the Western Cape, in the North-West and further south. Historically, these areas actually developed from the old mission stations. They are not homelands, but they offer a much better possibility of a livelihood to the Coloureds of the rural areas on land to which they can obtain proprietary rights, and here they can also develop appreciation for their own within orderly communities. Here they can also obtain management rights. Even now there are management committees and management boards and even Coloured superintendents. These management boards in rural areas are already regarded by the Housing Commission as local governments for the purposes of housing loans. I merely mention this. It may perhaps be said that there are not adequate prospects for them in the rural areas, but more of these areas are to be incorporated, and within these areas complexes will develop which will offer Coloureds opportunities for work in the other industries developing around them. In terms of Act 24 of 1963 the Department has also initiated development works in those areas.

It is interesting to note that where approximately R700,000 has been spent on development works, it is provided that the management board should also make a contribution of 10 per cent. These people are therefore encouraged to produce a quid pro quo, and by doing so their self-respect grows. It enables them to develop initiative and to make improvements and enter into undertakings, and this they also do by means of their own labour contributions. The erection of border fences and camps, providing water, planting trees, reclaiming soil and building roads and bridges, yes, even the stock bred on these extensive lands, are earning them an income of almost R500,000. The Department also considered the over-all development of these areas, so that town planning is undertaken, and here one finds orderly planning which has already made some progress. There is replanning of the old towns that simply developed around the mission stations without any scientific approach, and new ones are planned. Here the Coloured may also obtain his individual title deed. In this regard I may mention townships like Mamre and areas like Genadendal and six or more Namaqualand townships, which are now enjoying the attention of the Department. I must also mention the agricultural planning of these areas. Fourteen areas have been planned. In this regard the same principles are applied as those applied in farm planning for the Whites. Here one also finds co-operation with the Department of Agricultural Technical Services. Agricultural extension is provided. Some of the agricultural officers who work among the Coloureds told me that they found that in some respects the Coloureds were more prepared to listen to them and cooperate better than the Whites. To some extent one can understand that, but it shows how eager these people are to get ahead. For that reason they are willing to learn. I believe that by adopting this line of action we develop a community spirit among these people so that they are beginning to make their own contribution. Eventually they will also cultivate an awareness of their own human dignity. With regard to the exploitation of minerals in the Coloured areas, it has been alleged that the Coloureds are not enjoying their fair share. [Time limit.]

I am certainly not one of those who would deny that a considerable deal is being done for the Coloureds. On the contrary, I appreciate that a great deal is being done. I believe, of course, that it is their due and that they are entitled to it. The hon. member for Gordonia and also the hon. the Minister mentioned Eksteenkuil inter alia. I speak under correction, but I think the plots there are only three morgen.

From three to five morgen.

It is generally acknowledged that at Boegoeberg, along the river, a plot of eight or nine morgen is uneconomic, with the result that the agricultural department concerned is creating larger units there.

Eksteenkuil has good soil, and the people there are doing well.

I agree that the soil there is good. There is also good soil at Boegoeberg and at Louisvale. I know that country because I grew up there. The fact remains, however, that the plots there are very small and that the living the people can make there is rather meagre.

There have been pleas for the establishment of more primary and secondary schools. I want to make a plea for another kind of school, however, namely farm schools. Nowadays the Coloureds on the farms are equally aware of the necessity of sending their children to school. But at present it is difficult for the Coloured children on farms to reach a school. There are no facilities for them in the towns and one cannot understand why not. Nor are there any boarding facilities for them, because the accommodation in the towns is rather poor and is inadequate as it is. Therefore the Coloured children cannot obtain boarding in town. As a result of that there are many Coloured children on the farms who simply do not go to school. I know that where possible the Department hires buildings at a rate of interest of 8 per cent on the capital. But how many farmers are in a position to provide the required loans to erect a school building and also a house for the teacher? I therefore want to ask the Minister whether it is not possible for his Department to provide loans for the erection of buildings and also for houses for teachers on farms, at a very low rate of interest. The buildings may then be let at a somewhat higher rental to meet the interest and maintenance. Arrangements may be made to have the building paid for over a period of 25 or 30 years. I ask the Minister to see whether it is not possible to do so, because it is really necessary to do something for the Coloured children on the farms as well.

Then there is another matter I want to raise. This is something which is creating a serious problem for our Coloureds at present. I am referring to the incidence of immorality, particularly in the lower income group, between Coloured women and Bantu men. This is something which is assuming very grave proportions, and it is also giving rise to great concern among the Coloureds themselves. According to a report of the Cape Town City Council there were 3,158 illegitimate births among the Coloureds in 1964, i.e. 25 per cent of the total birth figure. To demonstrate the magnitude of this figure, we should compare it with the 178 illegitimate births among Whites, i.e. a percentage of less than 5 per cent of the total birth figure. The reason for this is primarily that the standard of living of our Coloureds is still very low. This makes it very easy for these people to go off the rails. They must therefore be raised to a higher standard of living. If we can do that, we shall reduce the incidence of immorality between Coloured women and Bantu men. Another reason for this state of affairs is undoubtedly the large number of Bantu men living in the Cape, and particularly in Cape Town, without their wives. This is one of the greatest evils of all. According to the report of the Cape Town City Council to which I have referred, Langa alone has more than 20,000 men as against slightly more than 2,000 women. As long as this state of affairs continues, it is understandable that immorality cannot be prevented. The system of migrant labour is at the root of this, of course. At this stage, I need not read once again what the Synod had to say about this system. We all know how they condemned it, particularly in the light of the evils that arise from it. This question of immorality is one of these evils.

What do you suggest to remove this evil?

According to a report in the newspapers of this morning, Mr. Tom Swartz, chairman of the Coloured Council, expressed himself very strongly on this matter. He is reported to have said that the free association between Coloured and Bantu in South Africa is resulting in a complete change in the appearance and character of the Coloured throughout the country. If it is tolerated, the Coloureds as a group will disappear. In other words, we are creating a new race here.

And you wish us to retain the identity of the separate races?

Surely I am pleading that we should not have this association of Bantu and Coloured. What the hon. member asks, is clear enough. Mr. Swartz continued and said that he hoped the Government would take action in the matter, and that the Coloured Council had already made certain suggestions to the Government with regard to race classification. He pointed out that there was a great flow of other races, particularly Bantu, to the Coloured areas. The point is that there is a tremendous evil here and that something should be done to combat it. The first step should be to uplift the Coloured socially.

Are you also in favour of retaining the identity of the Coloureds as a group, i.e. as opposed to race integration?

We are against race integration. As I have said, the root of the evil we have here at present is the fact that we allow Bantu men to come and work in the White areas without their wives. It is something we should try to avoid. We should therefore apply strict influx control and at the same time make it possible for the Bantu to enjoy a family life. We should see to it that we bring about contentment among these people, and then we should allow Bantu women to be admitted for the men who live here permanently. We should do what Johannesburg is doing, what the Government is doing in Johannesburg. Do you know that in Johannesburg there are 117 Bantu men for every 100 Bantu women?

Are you speaking of the mines?

The mines have nothing to do with this. As I said, there are 117 Bantu men for every 100 Bantu women in Johannesburg. In other words, we allow Bantu women to move into Johannesburg and live with their husbands. Why not allow the same here in Cape Town? If we do that, we shall be able to combat this evil of immorality.

Mr. Chairman, I am most surprised at the plea made here by the hon. member for Cape Town (Gardens). He alleges that immorality is caused by the Government’s policy of allowing migrant labour. Consequently he pleads that Bantu women should be allowed to enter the Peninsula. The hon. member asked for that, while that Coloured leader from whose speech the hon. member quoted, actually pleaded that there should be racial separation. There should be racial separation, he said, in order that the Coloured may preserve his identity. How can the hon. member come with such an argument? The Coloured is a supporter of this policy of racial separation for the very reason that he believes that the greatest threat presented by the Bantu will in fact affect the Coloureds. I was present in Johannesburg when a Coloured leader said that it was not the White who had anything to fear from the Bantu, but the Coloured. The hon. member drew a comparison with the position in Johannesburg. I submit that most of those Bantu women whom he says are in Johannesburg, are there illegally, which is in fact due to the lackadaisical attitude of the Johannesburg City Council.

Order! The hon. member is now dealing with a matter that comes under Bantu Administration.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to see the hon. member show more responsibility than to come here and make allegations like those. Nor have his other allegations any foundation. The Government is doing a great deal for the Coloureds. All possible facilities are created for them. The hon. the Minister pointed that out in the House this afternoon. There is an old proverb that says one can lead a horse to the water, but one cannot make him drink. I think the time has come for the Coloureds to avail themselves of the facilities created for them, to develop a sense of responsibility and to use for their own benefit what the Government makes available to them. If we come here with that kind of allegation and try to blame everything on the Government, we are giving those people ideas and we are telling them not to use the facilities created for them by the Government. Mr. Chairman, I think we should at least show some sense of responsibility in that regard.

What facilities are they not using?

If the hon. member had not been fast asleep this afternoon, he would have heard what the Minister had to say. [Interjections.] It is no use trying to argue with these hon. members about this matter, because they persist in coming with the allegation that nothing is done for those people. I maintain that those allegations are not conducive to the good relations we should like to have between the various racial groups. As Whites we should surely at least regard it as our duty, when these matters are discussed, to adopt a responsible attitude in order that we may create the sound race relations which we consider so essential. What is shown here is the utmost irresponsibility.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to make a few observations with regard to the Rand Teachers’ College for Coloureds, which is situated within the confines of my constituency, with which I am also associated in a certain sense, and in which I am particularly interested. It is one of the institutions where a tremendous deal is done for the Coloured population. We cannot but pay the highest tribute to what is being done at that institution, and in this regard I want to mention the names of the departmental heads, particularly those who are at the head of Coloured education. I also want to refer to the lecturing staff as well as the principal of that institution.

I should like to ask the hon. the Minister what his policy is; whether he envisages that Coloureds will be appointed to the lecturing staff of that college in the near future, and whether he will continue to appoint Whites to those posts for several years to come. I have reason for asking that. I am in favour of the leadership ability in the Coloured population being found and developed, and developed to the highest degree. But I want to submit that there is not yet adequate leadership talent to fill those responsible positions. We therefore fear that the replacement of the Whites working there at present by Coloureds may be proceeded with too soon. There is another reason, and that is that I believe that particularly in higher educational institutions like those, it should be the primary task not only to cultivate in those teachers an awareness of their vocation, but also a national awareness, and to cultivate in them love for their own. They should have a national awareness, they should have an awareness of their vocation, and they should develop a strong love for that which is their own. Because that will be their task, once they are facing a classroom, to inculcate those things in the children.

I now want to say that I hope and trust that it will be the policy of the Department in future to see to it that we appoint strong men and women in that college to fill those responsible posts, people who can really lend positive guidance to the Coloureds and who can inculcate in them an attitude towards life. Allow me to say this afternoon that I hope that the attitude towards life inculcated in the Coloureds by means of Coloured education, will be Christian National. I believe that only that Christian National attitude towards life will inspire the Coloured to accept the great responsibilities that await him, and to be able to develop them to the best of his ability for his own benefit.

It should be our task to guide these people; not to educate them, but to guide them to do things for themselves. We should remember that one of the greatest services one can render is the service one can render to one’s own people. Now I believe that the teachers trained at that institution should be inspired with a sense of duty towards their own people, the guidance of their own people, in order that the Coloured population may develop into a strong and responsible group in this country, a group that will also be able to make a positive contribution to the development of this country of ours. If Coloured education can succeed in doing that, then I believe they will have rendered a great service to the Coloured population as well as to South Africa. Then there will be no need for us to come here continually and to say that nothing is being done for the Coloureds. Because then they would lump at the opportunities created for them: they would take them and develop them for their own benefit. Then they would need only the guidance of the White man—the rest they would have themselves.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Langlaagte has dealt with various aspects, including Christian National education for the Coloured people, and he also seemed most anxious to embark upon a discussion on Bantu affairs. However. I wish to deal with two particular aspects concerning the Vote before the Committee, and that is in connection with welfare services and the position of the old-age pensioners and social pensioners as far as the Coloured group are concerned.

Firstly, the hon. the Minister referred to the question of welfare services and the importance of those services, and he made certain important observations. The hon. member for Westdene also referred to the question of these welfare organizations. I believe that this is an important aspect, an aspect which requires the attention of the Minister as regards his policy in regard to these organizations which are in many instances White-controlled. A number of these organizations, particularly in Natal where the Coloured population numbers some 45,000, to a great extent also handle welfare services for the White group. Many of these services, for instance in the field of child welfare and the welfare of the blind, are provided by organizations which also care for the White group. They are strong, long-established organizations. However, many of these organizations have a degree of fear for their future on their present basis. I believe that these organizations which are rendering a magnificent service to the Coloured people should receive from the Minister an assurance that he has no intention of dividing these organizations on particular racial lines. I gathered from the remarks of the hon. member for Westdene that he was thinking along the lines of having watertight compartments for our welfare organizations caring for each racial group. That appears to be his ideal. However, all sorts of difficulties can be encountered if one should endeavour to place the welfare services of the various racial groups into watertight compartments. We know that these organizations have plans to assist the Coloured people, and indeed many of them are playing a very important part. I mention particularly the child welfare services, where an organization has qualified Coloured social workers in their employ, and also has multiracial committees which handle the various aspects appertaining to the Coloured people in the province of Natal. I believe that these organizations should be left alone. They are functioning satisfactorily. They will look to the future with confidence if the Minister will give an assurance that he has no intention of dividing these organizations on a racial basis.

However, Sir, the whole question of dividing the racial services of our welfare organizations and also the welfare services, brings about all sorts of difficulties. To illustrate this point I want to mention a particular case. A certain Bantu woman married to a Coloured ex-serviceman has now become a widow—the Coloured ex-serviceman died at the end of last year—and they had a child who was placed in their care and classified as Coloured. Now the widow, who is classified as a Bantu, finds herself in a most difficult position, because when she approached the Department of Bantu Affairs for some assistance for the maintenance of this child, she was informed that the child is classified as Coloured and therefore they were unable to make a grant towards the maintenance of that child. This Bantu woman was then placed in a position of having to appeal to the Department of Coloured Affairs to see whether she could obtain some assistance from that Department for this child. However, the Department of Coloured Affairs themselves have also encountered difficulty as they will have to pay a grant to a Bantu person in respect of a Coloured child. Therefore it appears that this unfortunate person is placed in a position of falling between two departments caring for the same aspect of welfare. But due to the fact that she is a Bantu and the child is a Coloured, she is unable to receive any financial assistance from either the Department of Coloured Affairs or the Department of Bantu Administration. This is a point which I wish to use to illustrate the difficulties if one tries to confine the welfare services in watertight compartments as far as the races are concerned.

The other aspect which I wish to raise with the Minister refers to the shortage of organizations and institutions who care for certain types of Coloured people requiring such assistance. I refer particularly to the Coloured people in Natal as far as physically handicapped and mentally deviate Coloured children are concerned. It appears that the only alternative that these Coloured people have is for the child to be admitted to institutions in the Western Province, some 1,000 miles away, which means that the parents lose all contact with these children once they are placed in an institution. This is most detrimental to the child and also bring about most unhappy circumstances for the parents. It appears that organizations and additional institutions to care for these people in the province of Natal would be of great assistance to the Coloured community in that province.

Now, Sir, the next point is the question of the old-age pensioners and the social pensioners of the Coloured people. The hon. member for Boland referred to this particular aspect, and indeed it is a great pity that so many of the Coloured aged have to live on such a small pension. It appears as a large sum on these Estimates that are before the Committee. However, in actual fact these people have to try and maintain themselves on R14 per month. They are indeed placed in a very difficult position. The rising costs of the necessities of life have affected this group of people as much as any other group—perhaps even more so, as they have such a small amount of money paid to them as a social pension. We know that in 1965 when the means test was relaxed for the White group to a considerable extent, the Coloured group did not enjoy the same privilege that the White group enjoyed on that occasion. The means test was considerably relaxed for the White group, but as far as the Coloured group was concerned, it was only relaxed to the extent of R6 per annum—50c per month—and in addition the Coloured people received an increase in pension of only 50c per month as from 1st October, 1965. So these people have received no additional amounts as far as their social pensions are concerned since 1st October, 1965. They were completely ignored and left out of the increases that were granted at the beginning of this year. So these people are faced with this very severe difficulty in that the ratio that had previously been applied to these people is now no longer applicable. It is interesting to see that in the latest report of the Department of Coloured Affairs one sees on page 14, under “General”, it is mentioned that the Department has formed a committee to go into, inter alia—

This is an important aspect as far as the Coloured pensioners are concerned, and I should be grateful if the Minister would give this Committee an indication as to what progress has been made in regard to this departmental survey that is referred to in this departmental report. [Time limit.]

First of all I want to express my appreciation of the interest shown by the hon. member for Outeniqua. He is not here at the moment. In my first reply I dealt with the matters which he raised with regard to the activities of the Department. I shall therefore not cover the same ground again. I just want to trust that the appeal he made to the Opposition, namely that they should not always be merely critical of the work done for the Coloureds by the Department, will not fall on deaf ears. Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Gardens made a plea with regard to farm schools. As regards the question of farm schools and their establishment, I want to give the hon. member the assurance that the Department and I are very keen to have farm schools established. In fact, it is not only the Department and I who are keen to have farm schools. The farming community wants them too, because it is one of the means by which they retain their worker, the Coloured labourer. We have an arrangement whereby we do not establish farm schools ourselves. I regret that I cannot comply with that request. We do pay the rent allowance on the valuation of the building, and this allowance is calculated to cover the interest and redemption. In addition we look after the maintenance of the building. But I fear we shall have to satisfy ourselves with that for the present. The hon. member for Gardens also raised another important matter. This related to immorality and the incidence of illigetimate children among the Coloured population. This is a matter which is causing concern. If one considers that the birth rate of the Coloureds at the moment is 3.4 per cent, as against 1.7 per cent among the Whites, i.e. that the birth rate is twice as high as that of the Whites, and that it is also higher than that of the Indians or of the Bantu in this country …

The death rate is very high as well.

You speak of the “death rate”. According to population experts I consulted on this matter, it is projected that as a result of these birth-rate figures the White population will total 6,500,000 at the turn of the century, whereas the Coloured population will total 5,500,000. But apart from what the population figure will be by that time, this birth rate of 3.4 per cent, which is twice as high as that of the Whites and among the highest in the world, is something which should be regarded in a serious light. It is conducive to irresponsible parenthood, and it is therefore a matter with regard to which action should be taken. It is not something the Government can tackle by means of legislation. It goes without saying that it cannot handle it administratively. Actually I think it is a matter that pertains to the welfare organizations. They should give guidance to the Coloureds with regard to responsible parenthood in order to prevent a situation which may result in a possible population explosion. The hon. member for Wynberg raised the question of mother-tongue education. In that regard I can only say that it is the policy of this Government that mother-tongue education should be applied. This is supported by educationists throughout the world, and it is generally accepted that mother-tongue education is best for the child. It makes the best progress at school if it is taught its subjects by means of mother-tongue education. Therefore we should like to see to it that in that respect the Coloured child also achieves the best progress, and consequently mother-tongue education is prescribed for them as well.

The hon. member for Piketberg raised the question of differentiated education. That is done by our Department. We have differentiated education on secondary school level. This enables the Coloured children to take the subjects of their choice, and it is apparent that it is the ideal education pattern. I want to tell the hon. member for Umbilo that I appreciate his notable interest in the welfare of the Coloureds. Welfare services are a matter which I mentioned a moment ago and which is dear to my heart, and I should really like to see them expanded. There is the assistance of the Department. It is not adequate. We need the assistance of voluntary organizations— White organizations. We need their interest, and I trust that we shall always be able to rely on the interest of the hon. member, not only in the House but also outside.

Finally, I want to reply to the hon. member for Langlaagte. The hon. member is also a member of the Board of Control of the Rand Teachers’ College. I appreciate the fact that as a Member of Parliament he can continue to serve in that capacity. In that regard his interest is also a source of strength to us. The hon. member wanted to know from me what my policy actually was with regard to Coloureds as lecturers at the colleges in future. My attitude in that regard is the following: In the first instance we want the Coloureds to progress step by step. That is the basis of our entire separate development policy. They must progress and they themselves must fill the responsible positions available to them. When we come to the educational institutions, however, we want to implement that policy, but always with due regard to the qualifications required for the training of the relevant teachers’ posts. We cannot afford to appoint people at teachers’ colleges unless they have the required qualifications. We shall not be able to produce the teachers who have to produce the matriculants, with regard to whom we were attacked to-day and of whom there are not enough. One should consequently have regard to the qualifications on the one hand, and at the same time to the opportunity one wants to give the Coloureds of making progress in that regard. Consequently it is my policy that Coloureds will be appointed to those lectureships according to their qualifications. In view of the university training we have at present, one can anticipate that from now onwards more Coloureds will be available and suitable for appointment.

I look forward to the day when we shall be able to appoint Coloureds to those posts for which they qualify. I cannot express myself too strongly in support of the plea that we should create a sense of pride in the Coloureds. All the uplifting we do will be in vain unless it is accompanied by a sense of pride among the Coloureds. Unless we find in them a sense of pride in their own population group and in respect of their own achievements, I fear our work is in vain. And therefore I cannot support that plea too strongly. But this is not something we can bring about by physical means. One can only give people an opportunity of progressing, and one can inspire them to be true to themselves. I am confident that more and more Coloureds are gradually developing this sense of pride in their people, a desire to serve their own people, because the success of all our uplifting depends on that desire and on the numbers who share that desire. I feel that in course of time we shall see that sense of pride which will enable the Coloureds to attain the independence we grant them.