I move the following amendment—

Agreed to.

Clause, as amended, put and agreed to.

Remaining Clauses, Preamble and Title put and agreed to.

Bill reported with amendments.

Report Stage.

Amendments in Clause 2 put and agreed to. Bill read a Third Time.

I move—

In recent years the change in the pattern of the use of alcoholic beverages has been such, and so many new kinds of beverages have appeared on the market, that my Department feels that the time has come to introduce certain new control measures to keep pace with the latest developments. I therefore have pleasure in proposing the Second Reading of this Bill.

It is a common phenomenon in the Republic’s fruit industry that a considerable quantity of the annual fruit harvest is found to be unsuitable for marketing as fresh fruit, whether on the domestic or on the export markets. In the large majority of cases this so-called reject or waste fruit is not of an inferior quality; it is merely that its external appearance, which is so important in the marketing of fresh fruit, is blemished by marks, grazes, etc. For a considerable number of years people with an interest in the fruit industry have in fact been finding a reasonable market for this portion of the harvest to ensure that as little as possible goes waste. It appears that the manufacture of fruit juices and alcoholic beverages from such fruit offers a promising market which is already receiving a great deal of attention and is in fact already being undertaken on a commercial scale by some concerns.

In its present form the Wine, Spirits and Vinegar Act contains no provisions pertaining to the way in which fermented products derived from fruit other than grapes may be manufactured, or the standards with which such products have to comply. In view of the fact that control measures relating to the manufacture, composition and names of fermented products of the vine have been in operation for years, my Department feels that the time is ripe to introduce similar control measures in respect of fermented products derived from fruit other than grapes. It is deemed to be in the interests not only of the country but also of the fruit industry in general and of individual manufacturers in particular. In this way the public will be protected Against the marketing of inferior products, not only as regards the domestic market, but also as regards possible future export markets for such alcoholic fruit beverages. In this regard reference must be made to the high standing South African alcoholic beverages derived from the vine are already enjoying throughout the world.

Proposals regarding control over fermented fruit beverages have in fact come from certain local concerns that are already concentrating on this field, and they will therefore welcome it in principle. The relevant amendments to the principal Act contained in this Bill arise, in fact, primarily from these proposals. At the same time, however, this opportuntiy is used to set right certain aspects relating to wines and spirits in the existing Act, to correct certain deficiencies in the Act and to adapt it as far as possible to changed circumstances and new technical developments. I mention only the most important points.

Firstly, the insertion of a definition of “other fermented beverage” provides for bringing in fruit beverages derived from fruit other than grapes under the control of the Act.

In the countries associated with the Council of Europe and the European Common Market, the purity of substances that may legally be added to wine and other fermented beverages, is prescribed. In the Republic only the substances are prescribed, and it is therefore èssential that the definition of “substance” should now be extended in order that here, too, the degrees of purity may be prescribed. With a view to our liquor export trade it is considered essential that the Republic should adjust its liquor legislation as far as possible and bring it into line with that of the other wine-producing countries in the world. By prescribing the purity, the vintner will be assured of the quality and stability of the substances he has to use, and this will contribute to the quality of the final product.

Secondly, the insertion of definitions of “ginger wine”, “wine aperitif” and “wine cocktail” in Section 2 of the principal Act means in effect that this type of product, which may already be manufactured and/or sold in the Republic, is now also brought in under the control of the Act. The manufacture and marketing of all kinds of flavoured wines and concoctions of wine have assumed large proportions in some overseas countries, and there is a general feeling that the door should remain closed to such practices here in the Republic. Consequently, only two beverages of this kind are now recognized, namely ginger wine and wine cocktail, which is also known as “advokaat” or “egg cocktail”, because to some extent they already represent vested interests in the South African wine industry.

The extension of the existing definition of “vermouth” to make the addition of cane sugar admissible for sweetening purposes, is deemed necessary to ensure a better product and to facilitate competition with foreign vermouth. For the same reasons the addition of cane sugar for sweetening is also authorized in the case of sparkling wines, wine aperitifs and wine cocktails. Except in the case of sparkling wine, the addition of cane sugar is restricted, wherever it is allowed, to sweetening only, in order to prevent the partial fermentation of the cane sugar that has been added.

In order to be able to distinguish between all the kinds or types of wines and to obviate confusion on the part of the consumer, it is endeavoured by means of the definitions of all the products in Section 2, to set out the characteristic features of each one separately and as clearly as possible. Through the insertion of the new Section 4A it becomes compulsory to mark ginger wine, vermouth, wine aperitif and wine cocktail clearly as such on the label.

Thirdly, the minimum alcohol strength of 14.5 per cent by volume is not found in vermouth in practice, and its alcohol content in Section 5 of the principal Act is therefore brought into line with the minimum for all fortified wines, i.e. 16.6 per cent by volume. The maximum of 23 per cent alcohol by volume for vermouth is retained, and the newly defined products in this group have been brought into line with this. The exception is ginger wine, however, in respect of which a maximum of 20 per cent by volume is prescribed, which is in accordance with the maximum for fortified wines. In this way the minimum and maximum alcohol contents are adjusted to the practical consumers’ pattern and nature of such beverages. It is also brought into line with similar imported products offered for sale in the Republic.

Fourthly, in the proposed Section 6A a prohibition is placed on the manufacture or sale of fermented beverages obtained from fruit other than grapes unless certain prescribed requirements have been complied with and only prescribed substances have been added. In this way other fermented fruit beverages are in fact brought into line with the existing prescriptions in respect of the product derived from the vine.

In this section a prohibition is also placed on the sale of such fermented fruit beverages under the name of “wine” or of any grape variety, as also under a name that may create a false or misleading impression. The meaning or concept associated with the name “wine” in terms of the provisions of the Act, have in fact always been restricted to the product of the vine. If one consults the Bible, one finds that wine is mentioned on 500 different occasions, and that it is associated with the vine as such on every occasion.

Fifthly, in terms of the provisions of the proposed Section 7 a prohibition is placed on the sale of any other alcoholic beverage, with the exception of malt liquor or Bantu beer, that has an alcohol content of 23 per cent or less, except for those specifically prescribed in the Act. A special exception is made, however, in respect of medicated, sacramental or temperance beverages with alcohol as a constituent.

Sixthly, as regards the minimum sugar content of liqueurs the amendment of Section 8 of the principal Act imposes, in the first place, a new restriction that did not exist previously. This deficiency in the existing Act frequently gave rise to certain practical problems, as liqueur is generally accepted to be a beverage that must of its nature contain sugar. The above-mentioned minimum has been prescribed in consultation with the wine industry. In the second place, definitions are inserted in this proposed section for a number of spirits that were previously covered by the Act only as regards their alcohol strength. The control over such beverages manufactured from a spirit base is therefore extended by means of detailed descriptions of them and also of adjustments of the prescribed alcohol strengths to fit the nature of the several types.

In the seventh place, the insertion of the proposed Section 8A amounts merely to the formal transfer of the Government Brandy Board from the Department of Customs and Excise to my Department. This is deemed to be fitting because the members of the above mentioned Board have been officials of my Department for years and as their functions, i.e. the inspection and certifying of spirits and brandy for drinking purposes on a quality basis, are exclusively an agricultural matter. The Department of Customs and Excise subscribes to these amendments.

In the eighth place, the existing provision as regards the strength of spirits which are not specifically defined, is retained in the amendment to Section 12. Sub-section (a) is added to protect the established products by means of a prohibition on the use of confusing or misleading names. Supplementary to this, the existing Section 14 is extended to provide that the labels on the newly defined spirits must state clearly which specific beverage the bottle or receptacle contains. Furthermore, the proposed Section 15A requires that similar indications of the origin be shown on labels in respect of rectified spirits and other spirits that are not mentioned specifically in Sections 14 and 15.

In the ninth place, it has long been felt that vinegar does not belong under this Act. After consultation with the Department of Health it was decided that in future it will be brought in under the same control and supervision as other foodstuffs, and the chapter relating to “vinegar” is consequently repealed.

In the tenth place, my Department, for control purposes in terms of this Act, is interested only in the responsible bottler. In the proposed amendment to Section 23 of the principal Act the provision that the retailer’s name and address should also appear on the bottle is abolished. The Department of Justice has indicated that if it is considered necessary, any information about the identity of the retailer will be embodied in the legislation of that Department.

In the eleventh place, it is provided under Section 24 of the principal Act that wine and spirits may contain no zinc, lead, copper, etc. In practice, however, it is impossible to obviate altogether minute quantities of such elements in beverages, and an amendment is consequently proposed in terms of which maximum quantities for such substances will be prescribed by regulation.

Finally, the proposed amendment to Section 39 of the principal Act provides for the extension of powers of regulation to lay down prescriptions in respect of the manufacture, addition of substances and composition of various kinds or types of other fermented beverages, as well as the requirements that may be imposed in respect of spirits derived from the distillation of such beverages. In this regard it is perhaps necessary to point out that at present we naturally have relatively little practical experience and technical knowledge of the manufacture of fermented beverages from fuit other than grapes under South African conditions. My Department considers it advisable that requirements of this nature in respect of such beverages should preferably be prescribed by regulation to make them more flexible and more adaptable as the industry develops and more knowledge and experience is gained in course of time.

In conclusion I want to bring it to your attention once again that proposals relating to the introduction of control over other fermented beverages originally came from certain persons interested in that field. Now I want to make it quite clear that those proposals did not come from the grape farmer and from the wine farmer. Actually, these suggestions with regard to control and changes and also assistance originally came from the apple people and from other fruit interests who also wanted to put their product on the market. Therefore the suggestion which is frequently made, that a monopoly or a protective measure for the grape farmer is being created here, does not tally with the facts, because in actual fact the request originally came from the other people.

From the citrus farmers also?

Also from the citrus farmers as regards certain aspects.

Further amendments or additions to the principal Act arise from deficiencies or shortcomings that have given rise to problems for the industry as well as my Department through the years. I may also add that this Bill was submitted to the K.W.V. and other interested concerns for their information. Therefore these proposed amendments represent the general views of interested concerns, and I trust the hon. House will give it its kind support.

I have no hesitation in speaking on this subject, because I am one of the few members in this House who neither produce the article nor have an interest in the industry, and who make no use whatsoever of the article under discussion. Therefore I think I can judge quite objectively.

Mr. Speaker, we all know what a vast improvement the wines of our country have undergone in recent years. We also know how the industry has expanded, and as far as we can see it will expand much further even in years to come.

As the hon. the Minister said, this legislation is in fact intended to deal with the interests, not only of the farmers but also of commerce and industry as a whole and also of the consumer, and to place the industry as such on a very sound basis. The control measures mentioned by the Minister and contained in the legislation are of course most essential because the industry is so extensive and because so many new technical methods are developed in respect of the expansion of this industry.

We on this side of the House support this legislation. Mr. Speaker, it would appear, however, as though there would have been no need for this legislation if we had been of one mind with the old chap who said: There is no such thing as a bad wine or a bad brandy.

I want to tell the hon. the Minister that quite a few technical questions will be put to him by this side of the House when we reach the Committee stage, but there is one small problem that will now be raised by my colleague, the hon. member for Durban (Berea), and that is the problem of a wine that is not a wine but that is called wine, and that is not used as wine but for medicinal purposes. This point will be raised by my colleague. We are not quite clear on the intention of the Bill in respect of a case such as this. Perhaps the hon. the Minister may throw further light on the matter in the Committee stage. We on this side therefore welcome the legislation, and we will support it.

Those of us who have a share in the industry can perhaps not speak as objectively as the hon. member who has just sat down, but despite the fact that I dined well this afternoon, I shall try to speak soberly. We want to offer the hon. the Deputy-Minister and his Department our hearty congratulations on the introduction of this legislation, because it is most essential that this industry should be placed on a sound basis. Over the past few years the Department concerned has introduced very important legislation, as far as Justice is concerned, in order to place the industry on a sound basis, but as far as Agricultural Technical Services are concerned, there were still a few loopholes and hitches that are now being cleared up by means of this legislation.

The wine industry of the Western Cape is jealous of its reputation of producing only the very best. In fact, the wine industry in the Western Cape adheres so closely to the principle of producing only the very best product of grapes, that in contrast with certain wine-producing countries in Europe we do not allow the addition of sugar in the preparation of wine. In Europe, where there is little sunshine, it is sometimes necessary to add cane sugar because the natural grape sugar is not adequate to produce a good wine. But we placed prohibitions on the addition of sugar long ago, because the sugar-inducing sunshine of South Africa does not necessitate the addition of sugar. In our climate and sunshine enough sugar is produced in the grape itself to make it unnecessary for us to add anything. But we are also jealous of the fact that only the product of grapes may be called wine, because wine is traditionally a product of grapes. As I have said, we add no sugar, but we are grateful that the hon. the Minister has now provided for a few exceptions, namely in Clause 8, where it is provided that sacramental wine which is produced in a particular way by one population group in our country, may in fact be produced in such a way and that in that respect they will have the right, with the permission of the Minister, to continue making that sacramental wine. After speaking to the hon. the Minister, I am grateful to be able to say that I am convinced that he will be most accommodating towards this population group that produce a wine in their own special way, which is used for religious purposes only. But at the same time I want to appeal to the hon. the Minister to exercise this discretion of his very cautiously, and not to allow the addition of sugar to any wine except that intended for religious uses. I have pleasure in supporting this Bill.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Paarl referred to one of the sections to which I wish to refer in greater detail. He has referred basically to wine in the general sense, and I wish to particularize and deal with the matter so far as it can be dealt with on a medicinal basis. There is a small problem which exists here, and I earnestly wish to plead with the Minister to give attention to something traditional which has grown up through the years, and ask him whether he could sympathetically consider granting an exception in this particular instance.

I refer to the medicinal wines, and I refer particularly to one which has become a tradition of the old medicine chests of the old plattelanders and the old settlers of South Africa, a Dutch medicine.

Wood’s Wine?

No, not Wood’s wine. There is no advertising in this debate. This is the good old household remedy, “ipekakuanawyn”. I have a bottle in front of me here, and in large type that is what it is called. It says that it is “’n doeltreffende, slymlosmakende middel by gevalle van swaar verkoue en hoes.” Then it gives the dose, and in tiny print below that it says:

“Tr. ipecac BP 1953”. Then it gives the name of the manufacturer.

I have already assisted you by handing this over to the Chemistry people.

I am aware of that situation, but my latest information from the Registrar of the Pharmacy Board was that at the moment the Minister had not given a definite reply on this particular aspect. I spoke to the Registrar of the Pharmacy Board telephonically this morning. He said he had made representations both to the Department of Health and to the Minister’s department, but at the stage of speaking this morning, no reply had been received from the Minister.

In the Minutes there is an amendment.

I appreciate that. If I may just explain: I appreciate that and I am aware of the full impact of the amendment clause. But what I am dealing with is purely the question of wine, particularly ipecacuanha wine, which in fact contains no wine. That is the main difficulty. This is a preparation which is recognized legally under the Medical, Dental and Pharmacy Act, and it is known throughout the country as ipekakuana-wyn or ipecacuanha wine. But actually it is made from alcohol—it contains no wine. So, Sir, there is a difficulty and I think the Minister will be with me in this matter because the Act is intended to preclude any abuse of the term “wine”. I agree with the Minister there. In this particular instance this is something to safeguard an old tradition, a tradition which affects a medicine. It is something that cannot be abused—if anybody drank this, he would be violently ill, because it is an emetic. So people cannot possibly regard it as something that they would drink as a wine in order to enjoy the alcoholic content.

Now, this is not the only example. There is another one with which I have a little difficulty, and that is another official preparation which is known as Vin Auranti or orange wine. And here too, though it is called orange wine, it does not contain any wine as such. It contains ethyl alcohol plus yeast, it ferments, and it produces a substance which is purely medicinal, but which is officially listed in the British Pharmacopoeia Codex of 1934.

Orange wine is not medicinal.

No, this is the medicinal orange wine as officially listed in the British Pharmacopoeia Codex. The Minister and I are not speaking of the same thing. I am aware of the other orange wine, but this is a medicinal wine which is recognized as coming from an official formulary. This is what the Extra-Pharmacopoeia says of this wine—

Now, I want to make it quite clear that there is a fundamental difference between a medicinal wine and a medicated wine. The Minister has referred to the clause which deals with medicated wine. I want to assure him that I am one hundred per cent behind him as far as the strict control of medicated wines is concerned. I am aware of a certain abuse which has taken place in connection with certain medicated wine. Not all, but some of them. I believe that that abuse should be stamped out completely, and I believe that the Minister will have full power to do that. But I do not believe that in doing that it is necessary to circumscribe the use of wines which are recognized in terms of the Medical, Dental and Pharmacy Act. I should like to quote briefly to show the Minister that I am quite sincere in this. There is no possible loophole for abuse, and I can assure him that if he were to concede this point to make provision for ipecacuanha wine, as one example, and orange wine, as another example, he would not be leaving the Act open for abuse.

These things are all laid down in accepted formulae. They are regarded as recognized medical preparations. Now, if one refers to Section 65 of Act 13 of 1928, the Medical, Dental and Pharmacy Act, one sees the following definition of a “recognized medicinal preparation”, namely—

Now, this is a different Minister, namely the Minister of Health. These regulations will be enforced by the hon. the Minister. The recognized formularies are also prescribed because they are approved and published in the Gazette by the Minister of Health, and they are purely books of reference which give virtually international formulae for certain medicinal compounds. So that if the Minister were prepared to give this concession, there would be every safeguard and we would be able to continue without difficulty, and without the doubts which would occur in the minds of people who are used to ipekakuana-wyn, who have used it almost through the centuries in South Africa, and who still will be asking for it. Because, Sir, as I see it, if the Minister were to proceed with this Bill as it stands, the difficulty would be that the names would have to be changed; it would have to be known as tincture of ipecac or some other such name, which would not mean the same to the public.

There is another question from which I do not believe any great difficulty will arise, and that is in connection with other wines. Brandy is known as vinum destillatum in pharmaceutical reference books, and a sherry type wine is referred to officially as vinum xericum. Some other medicinal wines are antimonial wine, which is also a Dutch medicine known as Antimoonwyn, Colchicum wine, also a Dutch medicine known as Sinkingsdruppels …

What do they consist of?

I am coming to that. Then there is also pepsin wine. These are all wines which are made from a sherry base. The same difficulty does not apply, except that I believe that in this Act the Minister might be given powers to decide what could be added to wine, and on that basis would have to decide that certain of these medicinal, as against medicated wines, would have to be referred to the Department of Health. I believe that there is a small clash of interests here. I believe it is something which could be solved administratively fairly simply. Therefore I sincerely ask the Minister if he would give it his serious consideration because I do not believe it would be a difficult matter to overcome. I believe that the safeguard would be in this particular Bill, and the safeguard also exists in the Medical, Dental and Pharmacy Act and the powers which the Minister of Health has under that Act.

The Minister has referred to Clause 8 of the Bill which amends Section 7 of the Act. I want to express appreciation to the Minister for his kindness in giving consideration to the representations made to him in this connection. Because here a very real difficulty exists which is entirely divorced from the previous case to which I have referred, namely the problem with ipekakuana-wyn. This concerns the power that the Minister would have to allow the manufacture of certain medicated wines, as against medicinal wines. These are the wines in regard to which there has, regrettably, been an abuse. I believe that sincerely, and I say again that I would support the Minister in anything he does to control that abuse. But here I think the Minister found himself in a little difficulty with Section 37 of the Medical, Dental and Pharmacy Act. Because in Section 37 of the Medical, Dental and Pharmacy Act the power was given to the Minister, in conjunction with the South African Pharmacy Board, to decide which individuals were entitled to manufacture certain preparations. It might have been construed that the manufacture of a medicated wine could—and I believe does—fall within the purview of Section 37. The Minister has referred to the consideration which he has given and the concession which he has made and the amendment which he has tabled, appearing on page 206 of the Order Paper. In my mind that provision safeguards the position completely and is perfectly satisfactory, because it will give the Minister all the power he wants to exert the control which he wants in this particular respect to overcome any abuse that may exist. But it also retains the right of the South African Pharmacy Board acting in conjunction with the Minister of Health to grant authority when authority is required in regard to the manufacture of certain preparations.

So, Sir, I would be very grateful if the Minister could, either during the Committee Stage or perhaps in the Other Place, give favourable consideration to this plea in regard to the question of the medicinal preparations as against the medicated preparations which involve wine.

Mr. Speaker, the hon. member who has just sat down gave us a most interesting account, coming from a chemist, of things consumed under the name of wine to ensure good health. But I now want to concentrate more specifically on the form of wine to which we say, “Your health!”

In South Africa the product of the vine represents one of the oldest industries in our country. It was rightly said this afternoon that South African wine enjoys a very high standing, locally as well as abroad. This also applies to the South African wine industry, of course. Our wine industry gained that reputation almost 300 years ago, and we gained it by ensuring at all times—even with the primitive methods of those days—that the required standard was maintained. To-day we find that the South African wine industry has kept abreast of the latest developments elsewhere in wine-producing parts of the world as well. To-day it can compete on the highest level with the wine products of the old wine countries of the world.

Under these circumstances one feels that the time is ripe for the introduction of the necessary degree of control over our wine industry which is now proposed by this legislation, more specifically to ensure that our wine industry will not be hampered in its endeavour to keep abreast of the markets and the developments in the world.

To be more specific, in recent years certain fermented beverages have appeared on the South African market, derived from fruits other than the grape, which in our country is traditionally the base of our South African wine. Where this legislation proposes, amongst other things, that those fermented beverages, the products of other fruits, may not be marketed under the name of wine, I want to point out this afternoon that this is not an attempt to detract from the quality or the merits of such fermented fruit beverages. By no means. The legislation is aimed solely at maintaining the quality and the standing of our South African wine products that have been gained in the course of three centuries. Where the fermented beverages of the citrus farmers, for example, who I believe have in recent years also begun manufacturing fermented beverages, the apple farmers and also other farmers—the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Development has intimated that in his region something is prepared even from prickly pears —are excluded by this legislation from marketing under the name of “wine”, they should not regard it as a setback to themselves. I would rather regard it as an opportunity for them, for what the wine industry which is based on the vine has achieved in the course of 300 years, is now also awaiting those products. If they display the ingenuity which is characteristic of South Africans in the field of publicity, standardizing and the presentation and development of own markets for those products, then it may be that the prospects before them are just as good as those existing in respect of the product of the vine.

The point is that our wine industry is at present still one of our best ambassadors abroad, apart from the revenue earned for our country by this industry. The quality of our wines is an advertisement and acts as an ambassador for South Africa. One would not like to see its value detracted from on the markets where it has to compete, and we therefore welcome the control proposed by this legislation. In this regard I also want to say that it is quite fitting that vinegar should be removed from the control of the present Act in terms of this legislation. [Interjections.] Yes, that is so. I do not know whether the hon. member likes vinegar very much, or whether his palate is perhaps spoilt. But we who believe in the quality and the value of our wine also believe that the control over vinegar serves another purpose altogether. It seems to be something that suits some hon. members of the Opposition. I do not know about the hon. member for Durban (Point), but looking around I notice that the hon. member whom it suits very well is not here at the moment. In any event, we welcome the fact that the control over vinegar, which we do not want to associate with quality wine, will no longer fall under the present legislation.

I have pleasure in expressing the support of this side for this legislation.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to make a very cordial request to the hon. the Minister. The Minister had recourse to the Bible for assistance, therefore I do not want to argue with him. But in view of the fact that there are vested interests that use juices other than grape juice as a base for the manufacture of products by means of the fermentation process, and as the various concerns also market their products as “wine”, and they are called “wine”, and that is prohibited by this legislation, I just want to make a very cordial request that a transition period should be allowed when the Act is implemented, so that they will not incur immediate financial losses as a result of it. I shall be very grateful if the hon. the Minister will bear that in mind and provide for that.

Mr. Speaker, I should like to thank the Opposition for their support of this legislation. In the first place I should like to refer briefly to the problem of the hon. member for Berea. I am grateful that the hon. member acknowledged at once that the amendment with regard to Section 8, as it appears in the Order Paper, is most accommodating. I wanted to point out to the hon. member, however, that even the principal Act did not provide altogether for the problem he has set out here. I read Section 3 of the principal Act—

In other words, the existing Act did not help him to set this matter right altogether. I appreciate his difficulty, Mr. Speaker, I am not a chemist, but I immediately asked my colleagues what the difference was between a “medicated” and a “medicinal” wine. They informed me that “medicated” wine was basically wine with substances added. It is provided that the pharmaceutical industry may use this wine. The other kind is based on the formula provided by the British Pharmaceutical Act. I do not know how we can help him, because even the principal Act could not help him. I have to point out to the House that it is the task of our Department to endeavour to maintain all our products, particularly those we export, on absolutely the highest level. I also have to inform this House that we, as a member of the International Wine Bureau, generally known as the O.I.V., recently received a circular from that organization in which we were informed that the organization had resolved in France, in September 1964, that the basic definition of wine would read as follows—

In other words, it has already been provided internationally that wine is a beverage derived exclusively from the vineyard and the vine. If we want to assume our place in Euromark and the other markets, it means that we shall have to put our own house in order, and that we shall have to be able to tell the world that wine from South Africa will be known as a beverage derived from the vine only, and from nothing else. I am therefore grateful that you are so accommodating in this regard. As regards the other matter, I shall make inquiries to ascertain to what extent I can help you. I should like to tell the hon. member for Nelspruit that we shall apply the necessary leniency in order to help the citrus producers who have also begun the manufacturing of a fermented citrus beverage, to surmount their difficulties. Fortunately we do not yet have a problem as regards the apple farmers. I want to request the various fruit farmers who produce fermented beverages, however, to try to sail under their own flag, and not under the flag of the vine. In this regard I also want to request the wine farmer in South Africa to sail under a South African flag. They should not transplant foreign names to our country and use them for our wine products. Let us display originality and use names for the designation of our various beverages that are true to our country and to the fruit concerned.

Bill read a Second Time.

I move—

This measure is a purely administrative matter. I am of the opinion that it can be accepted that this is not a contentious measure.

In terms of the existing provision in Section 3 (2) (a) of the principal act the Secretary for Transport is the ex officio chairman of the South African Road Safety Council. The proposed amendment in Clause 1 will in future make it possible for the Minister, as circumstances may require, to appoint somebody other than the Secretary for Transport.

The principal Act was amended last year to provide, inter alia, that the South Africa Road Safety Council should also be responsible for the promotion of road safety in the territory of South-West Africa and to afford the Administration of that territory representation on the Council and its action committee. As far as that is concerned, the attention of hon. members is drawn to Section 3 (2) (d) of the principal Act in terms of which the Minister appoints four representatives, who have been nominated by the United Municipal Executive of South Africa, as members of the Council —one in respect of the local authorities in each province.

In view of the fact that the road safety work in South West Africa, as I have already said, now falls under the Council, and owing to the fact that the Municipal Association of South West Africa is a full-fledged member of the United Municipal Executive of South Africa, it is only fair and logical that a representative of the local authorities in that territory be appointed to the Council. Provision is now being made for this in paragraph (b) of Clause 1 of the Amendment Bill. I should like to point out that local authorities are, in the nature of the case, extremely closely concerned with road safety and that continuous attempts are being made to involve them in the activities of the Council and its local associations.

As far as Clause 2 is concerned, it must be pointed out that the Road Safety Council is already empowered by Section 11 of the principal Act to assign to a subsidiary committee or committee appointed by it such of its powers on such conditions as it may deem fit, but it shall not be divested of any power which it may assign to such a subsidiary committee, and it may amend or withdraw any decision taken by such a subsidiary committee.

The Council is a large body which normally meets once a year. Its action committee or executive committee (which includes inter alia five members of the Executive Committee, one from each province and one from South-West Africa) is, as it ought to be, concerned with matters of policy and usually meets only about three or four times per year. The Council has therefore found it necessary for the effective performance of its day-to-day activities, which cover a wide field, to establish a number of subsidiary committees and entrust them with certain duties.

What it amounts to is that, amongst others as well, all kinds of matters of a routine administrative nature have to be submitted to subsidiary committees for consideration and approval or authorization. This procedure, which in many cases is merely a formality (such as the appointment of junior staff or the authorization of routine expenditure), takes up much of the time of the subsidiary committees and sometimes causes unnecessary delay in business between the dates on which meetings can be held.

The measure in Clause 2 of the proposed Amendment Bill provides that the Council shall also be empowered to assign such of its powers as it may deem fit to a member of a subsidiary committee or to a senior official of the Council with the same provisos as in the case of powers which may be assigned to a subsidiary committee. Hon. members will note that the Council retains the discretion in regard to what powers it may deem fit to delegate, as well as which member of a subsidiary committee or senior official of the Council such powers may be assigned to. The Council is not being divested of any powers which it may delegate in terms of this measure. The purpose thereof is merely to simplify and to facilitate administrative procedures with a view to the saying of time and manpower so that business may progress more rapidly and more smoothly.

Mr. Speaker, the proposed amendments do not contain any new principles. The sole purpose of the measure is to increase the efficiency of the South African Road Safety Council on an administrative as well as an executive level. I am convinced that it will meet with general approval.

I was sorry to hear the hon. the Deputy Minister preface his remarks by saying that this measure was mainly one of administrative adjustment. We on this side of the House, in welcoming this measure, look at it rather as an opportunity for a new approach to certain aspects of road safety, which are entrusted to the Road Safety Council. I want to say at the outset that anything I say, or that we say from this side of the House, is not intended in any way to detract from the tremendous amount of time and work and enthusiasm displayed at various levels throughout the country on various road safety councils and organizations which function under the Central Council established under this Act.

There are a lot of organizations and there are many willing people who give their time in an endeavour to promote road safety. But it seems, if one reads the paper each day, that this problem has now got beyond the stage where it can be tackled effectively in the spare time, if I might put it that way, of well-meaning members of the public and in the spare time of officials who are busy with other jobs. I posed a question to the hon. the Deputy Minister earlier during this Session and I must say that I was rather taken aback by what he indicated in the course of that discussion— and I quote from the discussion as recorded in Hansard in Col. 1810. I posed the question as to whether the difficulty in regard to the promotion of road safety was not that the members of the Road Safety Council had to attend to too many other matters as well and that they were very busy men. The reply the Deputy Minister then gave me was: “I can assure the hon. member that the S.A. Road Safety Council, the organization which has been created, is occupied with road safety on a full-time basis.” In fact, the hon. member for Etosha said that I was an ignoramus and was discussing a matter on which I was ill-informed. Respecting the opinion of the hon. member for Etosha, I then put a question to the hon. the Deputy Minister, and I asked him who constituted this Council, one of the posts being the post we are considering to-day. What reply did I get?

This Council, which we were told was occupied full-time on road safety, consists of some 61 persons out of the 70 that the Minister is empowered to appoint under the Act. The chairman of this Council is none other than the Secretary for Transport, whom I have always accepted to be a very busy man. There are five M.E.C.s from the Provinces and from South West Africa. There is the Under-Secretary for the Department of Education, the Secretary for Bantu Education, the Secretary for Bantu Administration, the Undersecretary for Justice. I presume that these people are not full-time on the Council, as the Minister told me during the course of that debate. In fact, when one looks at this Council one finds that there are, other than the vice-chairman who was appointed full-time from 1st July this year, only three pensioners, and the rest are very busy people, including the Chairman of the S.A.B.C., because Dr. Meyer is also a member of this Road Safety Council. I mention that because I think the step the Minister is taking now in appointing a separate chairman of the Board other than the Secretary for Transport, with the power he is taking in terms of this amendment before us to-day, is a very wise step. But if one goes further and looks at the sub-committees that are contemplated, one finds that an Action Committee has been appointed. This is an action committee to deal with a very serious problem which is facing us in this country.

At the present moment it comprises the Secretary for Transport as the chairman. The deputy-chairman is a full-time official. There are five M.E.C.s. There is a Senator, and there is the Deputy-Secretary for Transport. There is Dr. Du Toit, who is a surgeon. There is a Mr. Kelly who is an insurance assessor and who has a busy business. There is Dr. Meyer, Professor Smith, who is an active professor. There is the Director-General of the Automobile Association and a Mr. Van Blerck. Those people, with the best will in the world, cannot give the time to deal with this problem which we have before us and I hope that when the Minister looks at the constitution of the subcommittees, to which the Council can now delegate powers, he will use this opportunity to deal with the establishment of a small committee of experts who can deal with various aspects of the promotion of road safety. I hope that there will be a more businesslike approach to dealing with this problem. One only has to look at certain aspects of what is going on.

If one looks at this magazine or journal published by the Road Safety Council, the latest copy of which I have before me, it contains the photographs of several municipal mayors handing out certificates or receiving something or other. It looks more like an extract from the social columns of the daily newspaper than a magazine for the promotion of road safety. It is a social document with, on one page, the announcement that although Newcastle has reduced its accidents per 10,000 motor vehicles by 42.537, Standerton has increased theirs by 18.34. Those are the bottom figures of a list showing the research for the last year. One thinks that from the publicity point of view the money spent by this Council would in the hands of a specialized sub-committee, utilizing the amendments which the Minister now proposes, makes sure that this type of magazine is not published and that something more effective is done in the way of publicity.

There is a third point, and that is that this Committee could well go into the matter, as it can under the Act, if the power is delegated to it, of giving further consideration to a matter which has been suggested in this House, and that is the establishment of a central bureau in which all accidents and motor offences can be recorded, and see to what extent that can be introduced to promote road safety. It is something which can be done under the Act. The power is there for this Council to investigate the matter.

Finally, there is the question, which I now think is gaining a good deal of public support, of appointing honorary traffic officers to assist in the promotion of road safety. I mention these factors because when one looks at the available statistics in the Press you will have seen, Sir, from the paper this morning that there have already been 12 fatal accidents in this city since the 1st of this month. The average in the Republic is still that 14 people are killed each day, and 130 individuals are injured, crippled or disfigured as the result of road accidents. In the 12 months of last year one finds that 5,315 people were killed on the roads of the Republic, and 47,403 were injured. To make a comparison, that is equal to twice the establishment of the Permanent Force of South Africa being wiped out in one year.

Do you blame road safety for that?

The hon. member for Etosha is being unfair. I said at the commencement that this problem has become too big to be dealt with by people acting part-time, with all the goodwill in the world. The hon. member has had the experience of being a member of the Executive in South West Africa. He could give advice from time to time, but certainly he does not have the time to devote to the technical research required for road safety. That is why we welcome this measure not as only purely administrative but one to give the opportunity to the hon. the Deputy Minister to appoint a full-time chairman now who can devote all his time to the work of this Council, and that by utilizing the delegation of authority provided for in this amending Bill the Minister will be able to get small specialized committees established which can deal with the various problems which exist. I want to emphasize again that my remarks are not intended to be derogatory of the efforts people have put into the work. All I am trying to say is that this problem has not been successfully tackled with present methods, and my plea to the hon. the Minister, apart from supporting the amendment to the Bill, is that he will adopt a new approach and see whether with a new approach he can perhaps bring down these figures. As I have already said, the number of casualties in South Africa each year is double the number of our Permanent Force in this country.

That interjection in regard to ignorance which the hon. member for Sea Point …

Are you referring to yourself?

The hon. member for Durban (Point) has no point if he says that I am referring to myself. I am not referring to myself: I am referring to the hon. member for Sea Point, with reference to the remark he made that I had allegedly mentioned that he had supposedly been ignorant in regard to the Road Safety Organization of South Africa. His representations in this House were a further indication that he is ignorant in regard to the organization of the S.A. Road Safety Council. As in the case of any organization, this organization has a pyramid arrangement of its staff and of other bodies which are members of this organization. Higher up one finds the South African Road Safety Council which consists of representatives from all levels of the entire body politic of Southern Africa. They are people of outstanding qualities and outstanding capacities, and they hold their positions on the Council as a result of the positions they hold in public life. Lower down on the pyramid one of course finds various other organizations such as the Action Committee on which representatives of the various provincial administrations including that of South West Africa serve. The executive committees of the Provinces and South West Africa have representation on it. Representation is given to them so that they as interested parties can undertake the further processing and sorting out of the business of road safety in broad outline. One has the S.A. Road Safety Council at the top of the pyramid; then one finds the Action Committee, and after the activities have been processed there, it is undertaken further by other organizations, and at the base of the pyramid one finds the staff who give their attention to this matter of road safety on a full-time basis. Surely it is common knowledge that the S.A. Road Safety Organization has no executive power. Various bodies and persons are appointed by it to do research. Throughout South Africa research is being done at our universities in regard to road safety. Mr. Chairman, special conditions are prevailing in South Africa as far as our roads are concerned. I am mentioning as an example the question of the presence of non-Whites. The hon. member knows just as well as I do that there has been an increase in the number of accidents in which non-Whites were involved. Does the hon. member expect a member of the Executive Committee of the Cape, for example, to go and do research work in order to determine why so many non-Whites are being involved in accidents? It is obvious that the members of the Action Committee and of the S.A. Road Safety Organization cannot give attention to specific problems. They simply sort out those problems and then share out the research work and they decide what specific research projects must be tackled. But after the staff of the S.A. Road Safety Council has sorted out the problems and after all the research work has been done and the results have been made available to the various bodies, what is the situation then? It is then the task of the provincial authorities to draw on the results of the research work which the S.A. Road Safety Council has put at their disposal. Mr. Chairman, let me say here that to my disappointment one often finds that the various local authorities do not always make the best use of the results of research which are placed at their disposal. Take for example the Cape Town City Council and other city councils. Do they make full use of the results of research which are being placed at their disposal? That is a question which the hon. member for Sea Point will apparently be able to answer. The hon. member has once more in this connection revealed his ignorance to this Committee, just as on the previous occasion. I just want to say that the hon. member was a member of an executive committee which voted large amounts for the S.A. Road Safety Organization and he was entirely satisfied. He voted for that and over the years he has intimated that he was satisfied, and now he comes along and slanders the S.A. Road Safety Organization.

On a point of explanation, if the hon. member makes inquiries from my executive committee, he will find that I, as a member of that executive committee, was strongly opposed to the way in which the money was being spent.

One does after all expect constructive criticism but the Opposition has made no constructive criticism here in connection with South African Road Safety. They merely say repeatedly that the number of accidents is increasing, and whose fault is that? It is always being insinuated that the fault lies with the S.A. Road Safety Council. The fault lies with the local and provincial authorities who must apply the results of the research work done by the S.A. Road Safety Council in practice. I associate myself with this legislation.

I was sorry to hear the hon. member for Etosha clashing with the hon. member for Green Point on this very vital subject. Road safety is something which affects all of us, whether we sit on that side of the House or on this side. Road safety is a very serious matter.

Sir, at the outset I would like to thank the hon. the Minister for introducing this Bill. I also want to join the hon. member for Green Point in thanking the private sector that has so ably served the cause of road safety and South Africa over a great many years. In this connection I would refer in particular to the Secretary of Transport. I would be failing in my duty if I did not thank him for the way he has acted as chairman of the S.A. Road Safety Council. Sir, we are living in a mechanical age, and it is no good our trying to runaway from it. We must learn to live with these monsters that we have on the roads to-day, and the only way in which we can promote road safety is through the medium of education. We must also remember that in this matter we do not recognize colour or creed. When anybody is killed on the road, we are not concerned with his colour or creed; a life is a life, and it is our duty to prevent this unnecessary slaughter on the roads. What I am afraid of is the possibility of the road safety department in Pretoria becoming just another Government Department, and I sincerely hope that the hon. the Minister will at all times take steps to prevent that. I say this because it has come to the notice of associations in the past that anything that comes from the associations is not readily accepted in Pretoria. It is rather the reverse; things must come from Pretoria to the associations; it is no good submitting recommendations to Pretoria. Sir, there is one particular item that I would like to bring to the notice of the hon. the Minister. An association in Natal first obtained a sponsor and then took the trouble, at great cost, to translate the highway code into Zulu. These Bantu ethnic groups have become very proud of their language. It is only fair that when we put out a publication in a particular language, we should put it out to the best of our ability in that language. Pretoria on the other hand issued a Zulu book which one could really not classify under any category other than Fanagalo.

Speaking about education, there is a very serious gap in our school education. The Provinces had decided that there is no room for road safety education in the higher schools syllabi. Mr. Speaker, that is very serious. I think that it is only then when your child gets to the 17-18 year mark that he should learn about road safety. Mr. Speaker, what is the value of a matriculation certificate, even with six stars on it (as they call it) if your child is brought home broken and battered and bloody. It is then not worth anything. But is it not time, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister takes steps to create traffic courts. Should he not appoint traffic magistrates, especially in the large centres, where these matters can be attended to immediately the same as they do in America? Is it also not time that offenders feel what it really is to knock and bash people about on the roads? I believe in America, in Arkansas, they have had great success with the following system: After the first offence, or rather the first conviction, an offender loses his licence for one month, after a second conviction for three months, after the third offence for six months, and thereafter his licence is taken away and suspended forever. I am told that large numbers of people were convicted for a first offence, but nobody came back for a second issue or a third issue of that particular measure.

Mr. Speaker, I want to support the hon. member for Green Point as far as a central bureau is concerned. This I think is absolutely necessary, but I do not want to plead for the man in uniform, the traffic officer. It is my own opinion, Mr. Speaker, that the only person who can prevent accidents is the man on the road in uniform. I will never forget a farmer coming from Zoutpansberg telling me: “Ons het soos ’n klomp hase gery van Soutpansberg af. Ons het nie notisie geneem van iemand nie. As ons wil verbysteek, het ons dit gedoen. Totdat ons die aand laat oor die lyn gegaan het van Natal, op pad kus toe.”

Order! The hon. member must continue in English.

Mr. Speaker, he said that immediately he crossed the border of Natal he saw a blue flash light and his wife asked him what it was. He said: “It is an ambulance.” She said: “No, it looks to me like a policeman.” He told me that he travelled a few miles further and he saw a blue light again, and his wife said to him: “But it is a policeman.” He said: “I travelled a few miles further and I looked in my rear-view mirror and there I saw the blue light immediately behind me.” And he said to me—

Why I plead for these people, Mr. Speaker, is that I would like to see that they can achieve something in life, that there is some objective for them, some chance of promotion, and I say that the man who eventually becomes in charge of all the various provincial traffic bureaux and especially the central bureau should be men who have come from the ranks. We had a case in Natal where a public servant was trained—it is a serious matter, Mr. Speaker—in traffic safety, and when he was fully qualified, he was transferred to South West Africa, I believe, to issue karakul export permits, and another person had to take his place. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to stop that forthwith and to see to it that the men who are employed in these bureaux remain there until they retire.

I accept the thoughts which have been expressed by the various hon. members and I accept the sincerity with which they have expressed their concern about the disturbing increase in road accidents. I should like to give them the assurance, and I said the same thing during the discussion of the Vote, that I myself feel deeply concerned about the state of affairs in regard to accidents on our national and other roads.

The hon. member for Green Point asked for a new approach. I want to point out that during the discussion of the Vote I also said that I thought a new approach in respect of the road accident problem in South Africa was urgently needed and was essential, and in particular I expressed my concern about the fact that if, according to the opinion of experts, everything that we know in regard to road accidents, i.e. all the preventative measures which are possible, could only be applied, the road accidents in South Africa could be reduced by half. On that occasion I mentioned it as being the opinion of experts, and as hon. members will remember, I also mentioned various steps which I intended taking in order to obtain the opinion of the provincial administrations. As the hon. member for Green Point realizes of course, the provincial administrations are responsible for the traffic on our roads. I have sought their co-operation and hope to receive it to the fullest extent in order to be able to take positive steps. I just want to say here to-day that I did not let the matter rest there after merely having expressed an opinion. I have already made attempts to obtain the opinions of the various provincial administrations in regard to the various matters which I mentioned here. They will be submitted to me in due course and I also hope to hold discussions soon with the various provincial administrations so that we can find a basis on which we can combat road accidents in South Africa effectively. Together with the hon. member for Green Point and other hon. members I want to express my thanks to those people who were prepared to put much of their time and energy into this work. As the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (City) said, there are many people in the private sector who have done much, and are still doing a great deal, to promote road safety. That is why I find the criticism levelled by the hon. member for Green Point at the South African Road Safety Council somewhat strange. I think we ought to be grateful to the large number of people, the 61 members of the South African Road Safety Council, who are prepared to devote their time and energy to this important matter. Evidently there was a misunderstanding between the hon. member for Green Point and myself when the Vote was being dealt with. I was, of course, speaking about the staff and officials of the South African Road Safety Council who obviously keep themselves busy on a full-time basis with the combating of road accidents. In any case I want to give the hon. member the assurance that on the S.A. Road Safety Council and in the entire organization the utmost is being done by the members and their officials, that they are continually busy making a study of the subject and that they are doing everything in their power to reduce road accidents in our country. The hon. member expressed the opinion that consideration should rather be given to a board of experts. As the hon. member for Etosha has quite rightly said, and as I indicated in my introductory speech, the 61 members of the Road Safety Council meet only once a year perhaps, and obviously this Council cannot give the necessary full-time attention to the matter. That is why the business of the S.A. Road Safety Council has been delegated to various sub-committees, subsidiary committees, and serving in those committees are people who are experts in regard to all the matters concerning road safety. The S.A. Road Safety Council does not have any legislative powers, it is only an advisory Council, but by means of its organization it is continually trying to promote road safety and to co-ordinate the steps which are being taken. I think that it has already borne fruit. The accident rate is increasing, but we must bear in mind that the number of motor cars in our country is also increasing and that the motor cars are becoming faster. Consequently I think we have, nevertheless, succeeded in achieving something. I want to admit at once that I am deeply concerned about the number of accidents, but I, nevertheless, think that we have succeeded in checking somewhat the rapid rate of increase in road accidents.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (City) expressed certain thoughts in regard to traffic courts and the penalties he wants imposed. He will remember that I also, on a previous occasion, expressed the thought that more effective punishments could possibly be imposed on persons guilty of offences. All the ideas expressed here by the hon. members will be given the necessary attention and attempts will be made to obtain uniformity of action, as well as to see that the most effective punishments are applied, so that we will achieve the best methods of combating road accidents. I want to thank hon. members for their contribution. Much has been said about the matter, but I am afraid that little has been said about the Amendment Bill itself.

Bill read a Second Time.

Committee Stage.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr. Chairman, when the discussion on this Vote was adjourned, I was trying to convince the hon. the Minister of the importance of his reviewing the functions of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, and I hope the House will bear with me if I quote at some length from the Report of the Scientific Adviser to the Prime Minister. He states the various functions of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research and says—

it is notable that he refers to “research establishments”—

He goes on—

I omit a portion, and then he goes on—

Further on he says—

1. (1) To promote research and the training of research scientists and technologists in the universities by means of grants, or research projects, post-graduate training and fellowships and the establishment of research units and institutions in or at the universities.”

That, Sir, is the opinion of the scientific adviser to the Prime Minister. Returning to the duties of the Scientific Advisory Council, he goes on by saying that the following are its duties in order of importance—

Another duty of the council is stated to be as follows:

“To arrange the interchange of staff between different organizations and teamwork on border subjects.”

At this stage I particularly want to deal with the question of these border subjects and I want to do this by giving an example of what has happened to the C.S.I.R. But first I want to state that no one has a greater admiration for the scientific work and attainments of the C.S.I.R. My argument is purely and simply about the question whether this council is the most suitable machine through which the research grants should be distributed.

The occurrence of Nile Valley Fever in South Africa was first recognized in 1951. In the autumn of that year an extensive and severe epizootic occurred in the Western Free State, the southern and south-western Transvaal and the adjoining districts and the north-western Cape Province. Many farmers lost nearly all their lambs and a large proportion of their sheep. There were a number of cases of illness amongst farmers themselves and their labourers. Veterinary surgeons who had done post-mortem examinations also developed this illness. Some of the patients developed visual defects which were still present three years later. In the autumn of 1953 the disease once again broke out in the Luckhoff district in the Orange Free State. A team from the veterinary services, the S.A. Institute of Medical Research and the Medical Ecology Laboratory in the Department of Health investigated this occurrence, which was over a large area in which there were many pans. It was decided to investigate viruses in the Republic and in 1954 a team consisting of members of the Rockefeller Foundation, the Poliomyelitis Research Foundation, the S.A. Institute for Medical Research, the Medical Ecology Centre of the Department of Health, the S.A. Council for Scientific and Industrial Research, the Plague Research Laboratory and the Virus Research Institute from Entebbe established two camps in Tongaland. This is part of the tropical corridor running down the East Coast of Africa, Tongaland being in the northern part of Natal. [Time limit.]

I do not intend replying to the argument of the hon. member for Durban (Central) except by referring in passing to his objection to grants-in-aid and the co-ordination of activities. As the hon. member said, universities do receive grants-in-aid but in addition there is a considerable increase in the amount allocated for bursaries and research grants to universities, medical institutions and hospitals. The hon. member will notice that there is a large increase in these grants-in-aid. I take it that the motive behind this increase in bursaries and research grants is, as the hon. member asked, to retain as many of our people as possible. I take it that that forms part of the motive behind these increased grants-in-aid. In addition a large amount is made available for research projects by Government Departments. I do not want to express an opinion on the question of co-ordination except to point out that if it is borne ’in mind that this Department was only established on 4th August, 1964, this House can but only take cognizance of the work this Department has done since that time in connection with the development of new departments and the co-ordination of the activities of existing departments with a sense of real appreciation. I want to add that if there is one department which is deserving of the highest degree of co-operation and positive suggestions from all those interested in the prosperity of our country and in controlling such prosperity, one which has been of great importance to the Republic, it is this Department. I want to place special emphasis on the words “in ton-trolling such prosperity”. It is not of any use to wait until abnormal conditions have arisen or until a serious drought is being experienced to come to realize the value of co-operation. It holds greater dangers if the direction of the prosperity of our country is not controlled.

There are a number of problems to which I request the hon. the Minister to give his attention. As far as this Department is concerned, I think that the problems we are facing at present are of a dual nature. In the first place there is the development and control of our growing industrial potential. In this connection, too, this Department has done very good work. Hon. members will forgive me for pointing out that if each of us requests the establishment of a certain industry in his area we will not necessarily be bringing an unqualified blessing to our respective areas. Industries which are established at random are not only no unqualified blessing but can also be a curse. I want to make this very clear without discouraging the enthusiasm which exists for the establishment of new industries. An industry must be carefully planned in advance and due regard must be had to all inter-dependent factors, factors relating not only to the provision of essential services, but also to socio-economic considerations. Industries which are established without due regard being had to these factors may eventually become a burden to our country. Inevitably it is not always possible to undertake the necessary planning because local authorities and bodies do not always have the necessary technical knowledge. If such an industry is established without the necessary planning the Government finds itself saddled with problems at a later stage. Surely this is something which has already happened in the past. Fortunately there is excellent control at present and for that reason I say that we can appreciate the work being done by this Department in this connection. However, it still happens that industries are established in certain places and that the local authority is approached at a subsequent stage to supply water more cheaply and that Escom is informed that that industry is in existence and that it should supply power more cheaply in order to make that industry a paying concern. They also find it necessary to approach the Department of Labour or the Department of Bantu Administration for special dispensations. I maintain that it is not easy to overestimate the physical planning which has been undertaken by this Department. But in this connection there is one request I want to address to the Minister, namely that this planning should not only be undertaken in the case of new industries being established. I want to plead with the hon. the Minister that there should also be planning in the case of the renewal of areas which were wrongly planned originally. I do not know to what extent this is already being done. In America the President of the United States stated the position there to be the following: “It is not merely the problem of growth, but also the problem of decay.” It has become a real danger locally that only new projects are planned whereas old projects which were wrongly planned originally are left alone. It is only human that city councils and other bodies will think about the development of some fine new project whereas unsatisfactory conditions in certain existing industries are allowed to remain. For that reason I am asking that any new planning in a town or region should eventually include remedying that which was not planned when it was established. There is, for instance, the utilization of water, something which has become of the utmost importance to us. For that reason I am saying that we shall have to be bold enough here to say, where an industry has been wrongly cited and will require too much water, that such an industry may not expand. Therefore I should like to see that the powers of the Department with regard to physical planning should be extended to include these aspects.

Then there remains the expansion of the Department itself. I realize that there are certain difficulties in this connection, difficulties with regard to finance, for instance. But attention will have to be given to the geographical areas which may be declared regional areas by this Department. When the then Prime Minister announced the establishment of this Depart on 4th August, 1964, he said, inter alia (Translation)—

If I interpret the words of the hon. the Prime Minister correctly, “geographical” co-ordination means that we should develop and expand these regional areas which may be proclaimed as rapidly as possible.

When, in the course of my previous speech, my time expired I was asking the Minister to consider the research unit which had been established between the Rockefeller Institute and the S.A. Institute of Medical Research. The Rockefeller Institute paid two-thirds of the expenses and the C.S.I.R. one-third. Two camps were established in Tongaland and 19 viruses which were new to us were detected. Certain diseases in the Free State were also investigated. This work is not finished. In working with viruses of this nature it is important to establish how the virus reaches the patient, whether animal or human, i.e. whether by mosquito or by tick or other vector. It must also be established how the carrier, i.e. the mosquito or the tick, survive carrying the virus through the winter. None of the work in this connection has been completed. In 1960, however, the Rockefeller Foundation withdrew its support and thereafter the C.S.I.R. assumed major responsibility for the costs, roughly two-thirds. That has continued until a month ago. About a month ago the C.S.I.R. informed the head of the unit that it had decided to withdraw as from the end of March, 1967. The reason for that is not known although it is probably due to the credit squeeze. This is an expensive unit, comprising as it does, some ten or 12 scientific men. There is a great deal of laboratory work to be carried out in addition to a great deal of field work in Tongaland. It has already identified and isolated 25 different viruses which in our knowledge did not previously exist in this country. Something has to be done and I can only see that it is this hon. Minister that can do it. Unless something is done, all this valuable work will come to an end, which will, in view of our commitments, be a disaster. There can be not doubt whatever that with the alteration of the water level in the catchment area of the Vaal and in many places along the Orange River project plus the Pongola dam, there will be a change in the ecology of these areas. We must be prepared to be faced with the fact that more and more virus diseases will come into the country. There is only this unit which is really competent to deal with it. Otherwise a disaster will happen to this country. I should like the hon. the Minister to remember that this is a problem which crosses the boundaries of various Ministries. It concerns this hon. Minister in so far as the C.S.I.R. is concerned, it concerns the Department of Health, it concerns the Department of Irrigation and it affects the veterinary services because these diseases also occur in cattle. This is an urgent matter and urgent attention should be given to it.

I drew the hon. the Minister’s attention to another subject concerning the statement by Professor Mönnig, viz.: to arrange the interchange of staff between different organizations and team work on border subjects. I interpret border subjects as meaning subjects which cross the borders between various Ministries. There are numerous subjects of this nature, Sir, which I have on other occasions attempted to bring onto the floor of this House so that they could be debated. This object of mine has always been defeated because the Minister concerned found a loophole and said that they belonged to other Ministries. He passes the buck, so to speak. He passes the buck and consequently there are many matters which I have found—and I am sure also my colleagues and other members of this House—impossible to debate and to bring on to the floor of the House. And in no department of State is it worse than in the Department of Health. The Department of Health is concerned with the lives and the health of the people. It also has to do with their money, their fortunes generally, and so on, because without health they cannot enjoy these fortunes or the money that they have. The Department of Health had a commission which reported in 1962 termed “The Report of the Commission of Enquiry into the High Cost of Medical Services and Medicine”. In this report we read that various departments spend moneys on health. There are some 10 departments which spend a total of R3,933,110. This does not include the 11th department which also spends money on health, namely the South African Railways and Harbours. I will not detain the committee too long but I would like to point out that there is a great manpower shortage in this country. But in none is it quite so serious as in the health services of the country. Wherever you go you find that the hospitals and the various health services are short-staffed, worse than short-staffed. And then we have ten departments wasting the manpower, or shall I say misusing the medical manpower of the country.

I would suggest, Sir, to the hon. the Minister that he should seriously consider investigating the medical manpower of the country particularly that in the service of the State, both in the Central Government and in the Railways, to see how far he can economize both in money and in men. There are others, Sir, that I could suggest to the hon. the Minister—other items which cross the borders—but I hope, Sir, that he will consider some of these on his own initiation. I would have liked to mention bilharziasis which is a serious health problem and which concerns the Department of Agricultural Technical Services, the Department of Water Affairs and the Department of Health and the Department of Sport. And none of these departments are prepared to discuss it in the House. Each of them passes it along the road to somebody else.

Mr. Chairman, I want to speak about physical planning in particular. And in this regard I want to pay tribute to the hon. the Minister to-day for what he has done for this country during the period he has been in charge of physical planning. It was during this period that recognition was given to the principle of planning on three levels in the Republic of South Africa. There is the Central Government as the blanket organization indicating the wider policy of the country, the Provincial Government which, on the second level, is more concerned with the physical projects in each province, and finally the local authorities which in turn are concerned with the local execution of planning. I also want to be the first to say that teething troubles are still being experienced at this stage in connection with this principle of planning on three levels to which the hon. the Minister has given recognition. It is similar to any innovation which is introduced and which experiences teething troubles. As a person with a great deal of personal and direct knowledge of this matter, I want to say that during this period a tremendous amount of work has been done in our country in connection with giving recognition to planning. I want to pay tribute to-day to what has been done by the Natural Resources Development Council and by the new body which has been established, namely the Resources and Planning Advisory Council. Work which has been done by these organizations is splendid work. I want to say to-day that we who have special knowledge of that work are impressed with what has been done. And one trembles with fear if one thinks what would have happened if one did not have these planning bodies. We are all aware of what is being done in overseas countries in respect of planning. I want to say that South Africa need not take a backseat to any other country in the world in regard to what is being done at present in the field of physical planning. Naturally we have our problems. South Africa’s problems are peculiar to itself. But our planning officials, especially our technicians, are people of whom we may speak very highly. They are able professional men who are doing splendid work in this field. They are rendering important and completely unselfish service to the nation and to the fatherland. And it is their dedication, their conscientiousness, in performing this task which commands our respect. These are men who are in great demand in the country at present and who can definitely walk into other jobs where they can earn much more than they are earning with us. It does not help to close one’s eyes to these things. We must be generous enough, and this House must have the magnanimity, to pay tribute to and to express appreciation for the work which is being done.

We realize that we have many problems in respect of planning, staff problems, etc., but we know that a great deal is being done to overcome those problems, and we know that as a result of those manpower problems the task which is placed on the shoulders of these officials of ours who have to do the physical work, is so much the greater. We are grateful for the loyalty displayed by them in doing this work.

As regards this new direction in which we are now moving, the Resources and Planning Advisory Council, we are looking forward with much interest to the work which will be done by this Council. It is an advisory council which is representative of all sectors, the Central Government, the Provinces, the local authorities and the private sector. We think this is a step in the right direction and we trust that the auxiliary committees which are going to be appointed for executing the various projects will be of much practical value in expediting the activities of this Department. We have learnt, for instance, that an auxiliary committee has been appointed to take charge of the planning of a city such as Pretoria, the administrative capital of the Republic. We should like to learn something more in this regard. We just want to say that we are glad that steps are taken in this direction and that all interested bodies, in this case the City Council of Pretoria, the Central Government and the Provinces, have been concentrated in this auxiliary committee in order to draw up a plan. It is a step in the right direction.

I also want to plead this afternoon for a new trend in respect of our industrial development and the establishment of industrial townships. A few years ago I had the opportunity of witnessing what was being done in the U.S.A. I have also read a report drawn up by the Director of Planning, Dr. Rautenbach, on a study he made there a number of years ago. What struck me in the number of cities where I saw them, were the so-called industrial parks developing in America. I wonder whether we cannot give considerably more attention to something in that direction. In our White areas in particular it could fit into the implementation of our policy of apartheid through the establishment of more White-intensive industrial parks, expediting in this way the removal of the Bantu from the cities. I want to plead that we must give very serious consideration to this idea, which is dealt with in detail in this report by Dr. Rautenbach. What I have in mind, for instance, is that if one takes the Witwatersrand, where one has a large mining complex in which many of the mines have to close down and large areas of land are lying vacant, one should consider laying out industrial parks and developing the entire area as a large complex of industries surrounded by White housing. [Time limit.]

I want to raise one or two matters with the hon. the Minister, particularly on the question of the declaration of group areas. His Department is naturally concerned with areas not yet declared under the Group Areas Act. His Department and the Department of Community Development are closely interlocked and it is difficult to know where the responsibility of the one begins and that of the other ends. The point I want to make is that before group areas are declared, the Minister’s Department, I feel, should pay much more attention to the amenities existing in the area they are about to declare; because once areas have been declared very far reaching results occur, particularly as far as the Coloured people are concerned, in regard to the use of various facilities in the areas which have already been declared. I will give the Minister one case which has come to my notice. It is the question of the use of the Paarl Town Hall by Coloured people. Because the Paarl area has now had a group area declared for Coloureds, the Coloured community of Paarl has been denied the use of the Town Hall which they have used over many years, particularly for a large function which is held there annually by the Young Rugby Club. This Rugby Club is in fact a big sports club which caters for the sporting facilities of 300 to 400 people, Coloureds, in sports other than rugby, like netball and tennis. It has been the custom for them to hold an annual spring festival ball in the Paarl Town Hall. It is a big function to raise funds to enable the sports club to provide itself with the necessary facilities for the ensuing year. For the last two years this function has had to be cancelled because, according to the Minister of Community Development, Paarl has had its Coloured group area declared. The point I am raising with this Minister now is that in that group area which has now been declared, the amenities are simply not available which could in any way compare with the amenities enjoyed by the Coloured people before that group area was declared. The only venue now for holding such a function is a very small hall, with a tiny servery and no proper kitchen and very inadequate toilet facilities. As the result of the lack of amenities, this function has now been cancelled for the second year in succession, to the great disappointment of the people concerned. I think a much more flexible attitude is required in the allocation of amenities where group areas have already been proclaimed. I would like the Minister to have some consultation with his colleague the Minister of Community Development to see whether a modus operandi cannot be worked out which does not in fact result in so much hardship to the people concerned. In every case, before an area is declared as a Coloured or Indian group area, I feel that a proper investigation should be made to make quite sure that the necessary amenities exist, and if they do not exist, to see that the people concerned are not denied the use of halls, recreation centres and sports fields in the White areas which they previously enjoyed.

Then I want to point out to the Minister that proclaiming group areas and then announcing that it will take some ten or 15 years before the area is actually cleared of the inhabitants, as in the case of District Six, also leads to tremendous confusion and a great deal of hardship, financial and otherwise, to the people concerned. As the Minister will realize, the fact that an area has been proclaimed by his Department as a White group area means that the Coloured people living in that area simply do not spend another cent on renovating or repairing the houses they own. They know full well that the compensation which they are likely to be paid, as the years roll on and these houses are ultimately demolished or taken over by the Development Board, will not be adequate to cover their renovations and it will not compensate them for any improvements or repairs they have made once the property has been declared a group area for another population group. At present I understand that Cape Town is short of about 15,000 houses for Coloureds alone. The declaration of District Six as a White area means that a further 5,000 houses are likely to be short for the Coloured people. I know that the Minister has told us that this scheme will take a long time before it is actually implemented, but the point I am making is that the declaration now for a scheme which will not come into operation for ten or 15 years creates alarm and despondency among the community concerned, and I might say that a considerable financial loss is also incurred by such people. The same thing occurs in other areas dotted around the Cape, which has traditionally been a sort of checker-board of occupation for Whites and non-Whites over the decades. As soon as it is known that an area such as Mowbray or Newlands has been declared a White area, the Coloured people involved suffer from the effects of an enormous property value fluctuation which I think bears very hard indeed on these people. I do not think sufficient attention is paid to the immediate effect on areas which have been declared for future occupation or ownership by other groups, and that much more attention should be paid to this aspect of an Act which I believe is in any case implemented ruthlessly, very often, and without the necessary foresight.

The final point I wish to raise in the short time available to me is the whole question of the allocation of beaches for the different racial groups in the Cape Peninsula and elsewhere. Again, this is a matter which the Minister is treating in different ways. Some areas have been proclaimed already; other areas have been proclaimed for three years only, and other areas are subject to review by the Minister. I hope that the review part of it will have the major attention paid to it by the Minister in the immediate future. Because if one looks at the map of the Peninsula and sees just how pathetically sparse are the areas allocated to the Coloured people in particular, one really finds it difficult to understand how there is any equity at all in these allocations. I have a map here which was reproduced in the Burger of 7th December, 1965, full of little crosses marking the White areas which have been allocated and with dots for the Coloured allocations and various other geometrical signs, plusses, minuses and circles for the other population groups, like the Indians, and there is one little dot for the Chinese community on this map. It is beyond one’s comprehension as to how any board decides to allocate beaches to the different population groups and reaches the conclusions which have manifested themselves on this map. By far the vast proportion of the good, safe and easily accessible beaches have of course been allocated to the Whites. Very few good beaches have been allocated to the Coloureds. On the Atlantic side those which have been allocated are allocated on a temporary basis, for three years only, after which the whole subject comes up for review again. On the False Bay side a tiny stretch has been allocated near Fish Hoek, and there are two stretches near the Strand. All the other beaches are for the Whites and there is a tiny section for the Indians and a minute dot for the small Chinese community. I do not know whether that is in keeping with our traditional way of life. As far as I know, and I have been visiting the beaches of the Cape ever since I was a child, there is nothing traditional in an apartheid map of this kind. [Time limit.]

So many matters have been raised, that I want to reply to a few of them now. I want to start with the hon. member for Constantia. He asked me what our function was. I also replied to that last year, but he virtually asked the same questions again. But I nevertheless want to supplement that by giving a few indications.

In the first place, as regards both scientific and economic planning, he wants to know how it is connected with the Advisory Boards. The previous Prime Minister established the Economic Advisory Board and the Scientific Advisory Board, consisting of persons from the private sector as well as heads of State Departments, for the purpose of advising him. He also had an economic and a scientific advisor. When he announced the establishment of the Department of Planning, he also indicated that both of these Advisory Boards, as well as the advisors, would be advisors to himself as well as to the Department of Planning. This means that as far as the administrative side is concerned, the preparation of documents, and so forth, it is virtually done in the Department of Planning and from there it goes to the boards concerned. The advice given there, is then returned to be processed, and in as far as it concerns other departments, that advice is prepared and circularized and referred to a Cabinet Committee dealing with the parties concerned. In that manner we find, for instance, that any recommendations made by the Economic Advisory Board, usually affects the Departments of Finance, Economic Affairs, Labour, Bantu Administration and Development, the Railways, and so forth. Therefore, when such recommendations are made, they are circularized to those Ministers, and if necessary a meeting of the Cabinet Committee is held. The Prime Minister himself was the chairman, and when a resolution is passed in regard to those recommendations, every Department knows what has been accepted and can then implement such resolutions.

It has been asked what the economic planning itself embraces, apart from the drafting of the economic development programme. You will realize that the drafting of this economic development programme takes time; it is a complicated undertaking. It is drafted in conjunction with the departments concerned as well as the private sector. It is virtually drafted in partnership between the departments and the private sectors which are involved. Two economic programmes have already been published. In a quotation the hon. member for Paarl referred to the value of these programmes and their significance. I can only say that we know from our own experience that these programmes have stimulated a considerable number of large undertakings not only to start here, but even to plan their future expansion in this manner, because in the sectorial analyses they were given an indication as to the possible future rate of growth. The third economic programme is nearing completion, and it will probably be published towards the end of the year or early next year. In view of the fact that the Government has already indicated that it is trying to maintain a rate of growth of 51 per cent over a period of six years, the question arises whether there is any need for the economic programme to be repeated and revised and projected into the future every year, as has been the case in the past. We have found it handy and necessary to do this up till now, because, in the first place, we did not have at our disposal all the information needed for the drafting of this development programme. There is no coercion; it merely indicates what development is possible with our resources, our capital and our labour, and the rate of growth which is within the reach of the country. In the past our rate of growth has been considerably less than 51 per cent. It was approximately 4.9 per cent. A higher rate of growth has therefore been laid down, and although it is envisaged, it is perhaps not necessary to repeat it every time.

As far as our statistics are concerned, the Department of Statistics for which I am also responsible, has to a large extent tried to adapt the information it gathers in order that it may more easily be reduced and assimilated in the economic development programme. As soon as the next programme is published, we shall consult with the private sector to find out how they feel about this matter, whether they are of the opinion that it should be expanded, or whether it can be adapted to be of more value to the sectors in the private economy than it has been in the past. We shall therefore commence those negotiations with them. It may perhaps not be necessary to publish it annually. It may perhaps be necessary to coordinate it with the Economic Bureau of Stellenbosch, where they are more specifically dealing with short-term programming or analyses, and to work in conjunction with them. It may even be desirable to project on a longer term of, say, 25 years, what will be the demand made upon South Africa if we want to maintain a growth rate of 5½ per cent over a period of 25 years, and whether we shall be able to maintain that with our resources. You can understand that such an analysis will give us a good indication as to what demands will be made upon our resources such as water, transport, power, labour and our raw materials, if we do obtain such a projection of what the development will be over the period of 25 years. But that will be discussed with the private sector and in consultation with the other departments.

Estimates have also been made in regard to the extent to which South Africa’s development will adapt itself, and to what extent we shall succeed with a rate of growth of 5i per cent. Several memoranda were submitted. From the nature of the case, because this is an advisory body to the Prime Minister, it was also its task to try to prepare and to submit from time to time a rough survey to show how our. economy was developing.

Then, as far as scientific planning is concerned, to which particular reference was made by the hon. member for Durban (Central), is has also been asked what the task of this Board is. The hon. member himself referred to an important function performed by this scientific board in as far as it concerns the co-ordination of all these scientific fields. The scientific advisor, Dr. Mönnich, went abroad shortly after his appointment, and there he investigated the organization of science in those countries, since science plays such a great role in the progress of a country to-day. It requires a great deal of attention from the Minister and seeing that it also makes a great demand on the capital and funds available for research, it was felt that an attempt had to be made at co-ordinating these scientific fields, especially where there was overlapping, as the hon. member pointed out. I think we shall realize that it was essential. It was also essential to try to determine the strength of the scientific manpower at our disposal, and the educational trends which had to be followed so that we might guide our scientific manpower into those fields in which they would be absorbed most easily. It is of no use to train scientists in a field in which they cannot be absorbed. That only means that after we have trained them, they go overseas.

One must also take employment and greater utilization of one’s manpower into consideration, and one must know what potential there is for absorbing them. That is why we decided to locate and recruit our own scientific manpower—locating those who are here in this country, and recruiting scientific manpower abroad A register of all these scientists is being drawn up. A manpower research section has been established under the Department of Education, Arts and Science to try to determine what manpower we shall need.

Dr. Mönnich also made certain recommendations on the broader organization of science. In a report which has been tabled, he suggested the establishment of four different boards: a board for social sciences, a board for biology, a board for physical and industrial sciences and a board for medical sciences. This recommendation sought the establishment of boards virtually similar to the C.S.I.R. in regard to these various greater scientific subjects. This recommendation was submitted to the departments. It involves certain problems.

It was referred to a Cabinet Committee dealing with several of these departments, and the latest development is that comprehensive committees will be constituted on these four levels to co-ordinate the activities they cover. The hon. member referred to the medical sciences. The idea is to bring these groups together, in this advisory body for the medical sciences: the Department of Health, the Department of Agricultural Technical Services, the Department of Defence, the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, the universities, the S.A. Institute for Medical Research, the Poliomyelitis Research Foundation, the C.S.I.R., the Atomic Energy Board and the provincial administrations. That is merely one of the sectors in which an attempt will be made to bring these larger groups together, and when they have been brought together, these borderline cases of theirs can be eliminated. As far as the future is concerned, the possibility of their being granted more authority is not ruled out, but the whole idea is that this body will not undertake any administrative duties; it is only a co-ordinative body and its function is to eliminate overlapping and to try to indicate those scientific fields, within each of these levels, on which we must concentrate. The hon. member also referred to the biological sciences. The Departments of Agricultural Technical Services and Forestry, commerce and industry, the provincial administrations, the South West administration, the universities, the National Parks Board, the museums, the botanical gardens, the National Zoological Gardens and the C.S.I.R. are concerned in that matter. I merely mention this to give hon. members an idea of the four trends of thought that exist in regard to the co-ordination of their functions for the purpose of eliminating overlapping and enabling us to make the best use of our manpower.

The hon. member was not very happy about certain aspects of the C.S.I.R., particularly as regards the allocation of funds by the C.S.I.R. As regards the funds made available to the universities by the C.S.I.R. I just want to point out that in allocating those funds, the C.S.I.R. merely acts as an agent. Provision has once again been made in the Estimates for more than R1,000,000, and there must be a body somewhere to allocate that money. At one stage the allocation was made by the Department of Education in consultation with the universities, and they found it an impossible task; that is why this task was transferred to the C.S.I.R. at the time. I want to point out that representatives of the universities also serve on this committee of the C.S.I.R. This committee then grants certain amounts to the universities for the purpose of research. But these are not the only amounts which are granted to the universities. The universities also receive millions for that same purpose under the Education, Arts and Science Vote. In this respect we are only concerned with amounts granted for research by the C.S.I.R., as well as certain larger projects which are undertaken on a coordinate scale. The C.S.I.R. is therefore merely an agent in that regard, and they do those allocations and grants in the closest consultation with the universities. The universities also nominate representatives to serve in rotation on that committee. I also want to point out that these funds which are made available for research in the budget of the C.S.I.R., have increased considerably in the recent past.

In 1963 it was a total of R670.000; in 1965, it was R1,075,000, and in the Estimates for this year provision is being made for R1,188,000—an increase of 7½ per cent, therefore. Medical research also receives its share from this amount. The hon. member also referred to medical research and its significance. In this regard I just want to mention that medical research received R320,000 in 1964. whereas provision is being made for R620,000 in the Estimates for this year. A considerable improvement has therefore been effected in this regard.

The hon. member was also concerned about aspects of research. He feels that it should be done at the universities. An analysis has been made which shows what percentage of the over-all funds granted to universities is being spent on research, and what percentage they are spending on the basic sciences. It was found that of the funds universities received for scientific purposes, they used 80 per cent for the basic training of their students, and that 10 per cent was used for projects dealing with the health of the community. That is approximately the existing position in regard to the distribution of their funds. I think hon. members will realize that the C.S.I.R. plays a very important supplementary part, since the C.S.I.R. comes into such close contact with the problems of industry, and it is in that field that there are very great opportunities for training, particularly on the technical level, which students cannot be afforded at universities. In the establishment of the C.S.I.R. we find that there are 520 well-trained scientists, assisted by a technical staff of more than 1,000. Therefore, it is already a large institution, and the contribution rendered by them is a particularly great one.

The hon. member also referred to certain problems which, as he sees the matter, arise in regard to virus diseases; I shall refer it to the C.S.I.R. I think it is a matter of fundamental importance, and I shall gladly refer it to the C.S.I.R.

The hon. member for Wynberg referred to proteins and certain research work which had to be done in that regard. I can only say that the greatest part of the research as regards skimmed milk and fish-meal and its protein content, is being done by the Department of Agricultural Technical Services, but the dietetics section of the C.S.I.R. has already given attention to this matter. The hon. member may rest assured that it is an aspect which is in fact being considered and to which the dietetics section of the C.S.I.R. is in fact giving attention.

Reference was also made here to physical planning and it was asked what it actually embraced and what we were doing in that regard. I want to point out that physical planning is not a new thing, except perhaps as far as the co-ordinative factor is concerned. We have the Natural Resources Development Council which has been in existence for several years and which has done very good work. The hon. member for Benoni also referred to the work they had performed in this regard. I want to agree with him that the Natural Resources Development Council, in conjunction with the private sector which was represented on the council, has done very good work in the course of years. As has already been announced, legislation will be introduced to replace the N.R.D.C. In the main its activities will be taken over by the Advisory Council for Resources and Planning. Just as on the scientific level and on the economic level there is a council for each on which the chief officials serve along with the representatives of the private sector, so we find that consultations can take place on this third level as well. This council met for the second time last week, and it appears that it will perform a very great function, not only as regards broader planning, but also as regards the elimination of overlapping, and so forth.

In order to deal with the work done by the N.R.D.C., I just want to point out the controlled areas which have already been proclaimed. A plea was made here to-day that it should even be extended. These controlled areas are areas which are proclaimed, and the result of the proclamation is that development is frozen there and then it can only take place in accordance with certain broad directives. Land cannot be sub-divided just like that; land which has been used for one purpose up to now, cannot be utilized for another purpose without approval having been granted to that effect. A broader development plan is being drafted, and the development must then take place within those broad directives. So we find that areas which constitute the points of growth of the country, are proclaimed controlled areas. There is, for instance, the controlled area of the Orange Free State gold-fields. That area was proclaimed a controlled area when the development started there. The Klerksdorp-Randfontein area has also been proclaimed a controlled area and similarly the Eastern Transvaal gold-fields at Kinross and Leslie were also proclaimed a controlled area. But apart from those, there is the greater Pre-Pretoria Witwatersrand - Vereeniging complex where very important surveys are being made. The hon. member for Benoni also referred to it. For years he was a member of that and he is aware of the important work which is being done in this regard.

It was decided, therefore, as far as this work and research were concerned, to bring out as soon as possible an interim report in regard to the sections already completed. Shortly after the announcement in regard to the contraction of the Orange River scheme, another extensive controlled area was proclaimed; the entire area covered by the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam, the Van der Kloof Dam, as well as the Torquay Dam, was proclaimed a controlled area in order that development there may take place systematically. As far as this is concerned, there has been the closest liaison with the Orange River Advisory Board under the chairmanship of Dr. Hennie Steyn. The secretarial work was done by the Department of Planning, and all departments affected by that development were integrated in this way, and timely attention was given to the numerous problems which may arise in regard to the construction of these dams and the development which will result. Then there is another area, the Phalaborwa area. That is an area which is developing very rapidly as a result of the great expansion in regard to the mining of phosphates as well as copper and possibly other raw materials as well. We found that land had been sub-divided there into small premises of five morgen each and that this sub-division had taken place quite unsystematically, and it is for that reason that the Phalaborwa area was also proclaimed a controlled are. The same thing happened here in Cape Town as regards Rietvlei after the construction of the Rietvlei Harbour had been announced. I shall presently refer to that again. In the same manner we also find that Richard’s Bay in Natal was proclaimed a controlled area after the Minister of Railways had announced that a new harbour was to be developed there. It was determined what Richard’s Bay’s development would be and in respect of what matters provision had to be made in good time.

The hon. member for Constantia wanted to know what the procedure was for referring projects to the Department of Planning. I can mention the Rietvlei Harbour as one example. The problems which will arise in regard to the Rietvlei Harbour, were referred to us by the Minister of Economic Affairs. We were asked to go into all aspects of the development of this harbour. Subsequently an ad hoc committee was appointed, consisting of representatives of the Departments of Planning, Commerce and Industry, the Director of Fisheries, Biskor, the Railways, Escom, Agricultural Credit and Land Tenure, Community Development, Water Affairs, Defence, the Provincial Administration, the Cape Divisional Council, the Milnerton Municipality and the Joint Civic Planning Committee. These people met and tried to determine what problems they would have to deal with here.

The first question was what that development would require in all; how big the harbour had to be: all the things for which provision had to be made—shipbuilding yards, repairs, and so forth; how much land had to be made available for industrial purposes; what had to be done with the floodwaters the Diep River carried there; the depth of the sea there, and whether Rietvlei was a suitable location for a harbour. Consequently seismic surveys had to be carried out there; drilling had to be done; the effects of the sea on that area had to be determined; not only the effects of the waves, but also that of the ocean currents and the wind had to be determined; the way in which the harbour had to be built, had to be determined, and the effects the construction of the harbour would have on coastal erosion had to be determined as well.

All of these are problems which had to be investigated, and it is for that reason that a large model was built in Pretoria where the effects of all these aspects are being determined. In this regard I may just say that the experiments conducted in Pretoria have shown that the problem of coastal erosion will not be aggravated. As regards the floodwaters from the Diep River, the Department of Water Affairs has determined that the floodwater problem can be surmounted. It will be necessary to canalize the water and the course of that canal will also be determined. Provision has to be made for railway junctions not only for the Caltex complex which is there at present, but also for the entire industrial complex which has sprung up in that area. It is clear that other industries may also develop in that area. Provision will have to be made for passenger-traffic, and services will have to be provided in the harbour area itself. A survey is therefore being made of the demands which will be made upon the Railways. Provision must also be made for recreation as well as nature conservation. These are but a few of the problems.

There was another meeting of the Technical Committee in Pretoria to-day. The preliminary plan drafted for Rietvlei was also submitted to the Technical Committee, and it is hoped that, as far as the technical aspects are concerned, we shall soon be able to submit certain matters to the Minister of Economic Affairs. Where these problems affect other departments—for instance, how the railway line has to be built—the matter is being referred to the Cabinet Committee of the Minister concerned. The establishment of a fishing harbour there will of course have a very great effect on that entire area as well, and a study is therefore being made of that, and it will be finalized in due course. What I think is of significance to us in this respect, is the knowledge that these technical problems are apparently not insurmountable and that it is possible that solutions will be found so that a decision may soon be taken on the extent to which it is possible to build a fishing harbour there. It will of course be the task of the Minister of Economic Affairs to decide whether such a harbour should in fact be built.

I wonder if the hon. the Minister can tell us with regard to the Richard’s Bay plan how big the area is that is being planned?

As regards Richard’s Bay. I may tell the hon. member that it is an extensive area, and that the report, which is virtually ready at present and will be submitted to the Minister concerned within a few weeks, deals with all aspects. We are not sure of the actual extent. An extensive portion of the land adjoining Richard’s Bay belongs to the State—to the Department of Bantu Administration—but the whole of the area is seen as a large complex. The possibility that in years to come Richard’s Bay may develop into a large harbour, is not at all ruled out. and it has been taken into consideration that Richard’s Bay may become a very large export harbour which may supplement the Durban Harbour. If the hon. member is interested, I can inform him later as to the extent of the area which has been proclaimed, but it is an area where provision is being made for very great future development.

Hon. members also referred to areas of a more local nature. I do not think there is any need for me to go into them in detail. I have already tried to indicate that there are specific projects which are referred to us. As far as the broader activities are concerned, our work is co-ordinative to a large extent. Then there is also the work in regard to group areas to which hon. members referred here. As far as group areas are concerned, a reasonable amount of progress has been made. We maintain the closest co-operation with the Department of Community Development. The Department of Planning deals with the investigation into group areas and the proclamation thereof. Once the group areas have been proclaimed, Community Development takes charge of the development of those areas. The hon. member for Houghton emphasized that we should take into consideration the facilities which are available in the various group areas. I think there are other hon. members who also want to talk about group areas and therefore I do not want to go into more particulars at this stage, but I can assure hon. members that it is one of the problems we are dealing with. We find that there are many town councils which do not make any provision for the various races. Even where there was separation in practice, without the proclamation of group areas, they did not make provision for separate sports facilities and other facilities such as halls, and so forth. We often find that town councils do not take any steps in this regard until such time as group areas are proclaimed. However, pressure is being brought to bear on them to provide separate facilities for these various race groups in their own areas. Occasionally the Department of Planning also has to deal with the issue of permits and with permit arrangements in areas, before they are proclaimed as group areas. Where alternative facilities do not exist, one tries to be as accommodating as possible and to obtain the co-operation of the town councils with a view to making available the required facilities. In this regard I am thinking of golf courses and so forth. In exceptional cases, where no other facilities are available and where the council concerned and the club concerned have no objections, we are prepared to issue permits for major tournaments. It is a knotty problem, as the hon. member has rightly said, but one cannot keep back the proclamation of group areas simply because the required facilities have not yet been made available. It often happens that the facilities are only provided after the area has been proclaimed a group area. The hon. member wants to know why it takes so long to proclaim certain areas as group areas—District Six, for instance, which will take ten years. In the case of District Six we are dealing with a major renewal programme which cannot be undertaken summarily: it will take time. But the other problem is that the population group concerned should be afforded the opportunity of re-settling itself. The hon. member may perhaps ask me whether it would not be better to proclaim small areas instead. I think that such a sten would be wrong, since one would then give no indication of one’s eventual plans when an entire complex such as District Six is affected. I think the sooner there is certainty as regards group areas, the better, particularly in an area such as this one where urban renewal has to take place to a large extent.

Of course, the alternative is to leave them alone altogether.

That, however, is not acceptable. As regards separate beaches, I would rather say more about them at a later stage.

The hon. member for Paarl also referred to reports in regard to surveys in connection with minerals. The reports which have already been published, deal with copper, manganese, asbestos, and chrome-iron ore. The report on fluor-spar is at the government printing works at present, and will appear shortly. An inquiry has also been ordered into fireproof materials and uranium materials. The reports on copper, manganese and asbestos were published a short while ago, and it is perhaps necessary that we should start reviewing certain aspects, and it is therefore the idea that a committee or an auxiliary committee should be appointed soon in order to go into those aspects and to see whether circumstances have not changed to a certain extent.

The hon. member for Witbank referred to certain problems and to the importance of planning. He said that welfare also had to be taken into account and that there had to be a measure of supervision when certain urban areas were deteriorating. That is correct; we must have regard to what the factors are which lead to prosperity. It happens quite often that prosperity also gives rise to problems. I am thinking of problems which have been caused by progress in an area such as that of Witbank, in fact. In that area there are 250,000 morgen which are carboniferous and which can still be developed. Only 28,000 morgen of those 250,000 morgen have been undermined. There are therefore still a tremendous number of morgen which can be undermined. Only 13,000 morgen are undermined every year, and they produce 30,000.000 tons of coal to the value of R40,000,000. That area is therefore a great national asset to us. but at the same time it also gives rise to certain problems. In this regard I think that Witbank has more problems than other areas. It is the duty of the Department of Mines to see to it that such undermining does not cause unsafety, both as far as buildings and lives are concerned. They have such a complex of problems there that it affects quite a number of departments. In the first instance, we are giving consideration to constituting a committee as far as that area is concerned, since amongst other things one has to deal there with the problem of decontaminating water, the problem of group areas and many other problems; we are therefore giving consideration to constituting an ad hoc committee which can investigate those specific problems of Witbank. Witbank is also situated in an area which has still development potential, together with Middelbure and Bethal. As we see it, that entire area will still become a very large urban complex, and that is why we are, even at this early stage, considering the advisability of proclaiming that area as a controlled area so that one may at least freeze undesirable development and, together with other bodies and persons, approach the possible future development there in a fitting manner. That is an aspect to which attention is being given at present.

Mr. Chairman, I have dealt with a few of the problems raised here, and on a later occasion I shall have more to say about other aspects I have not touched on now.

Sir, I want to pursue a matter raised by the hon. member for Durban (Central), namely the question of bilharzia. I believe that this is a matter which calls for the urgent attention of the hon. the Minister of Planning because it affects not only our human resources but our labour resources and it also affects our stock. I believe that this is a very serious problem in regard to which we have no clear picture. I realize that the Department of Health is vitally concerned in this; I realize too that it is a matter of great interest to the Department of Water Affairs but I believe that now that the Department of Planning has been established, this is a matter which the Minister should consider as being one of such urgency that he should introduce some form of crash programme to deal with this very serious threat. Sir, it is interesting to see what official bodies have to say about bilharzia. The C.S.I.R. views this question very seriously, and this is what it says—

It then goes on to say this, which I think is very significant—

I realize that various steps are being taken and that various bodies are devoting their skill and energies to dealing with this problem. I can quote the comments of one of the authorities involved in this programme; he refers to the Orange River scheme where the presence of snails has now been established. In referring to the Orange River scheme he says this—

Swamped is the word of which I think we should take cognizance. Perhaps there is greater need for research and for a larger research unit than the one at Potchefstroom. He goes on to say that he understands an additional R10.000 for bilharzia has been made available for the next year. “This is good news and I hope it will still be possible to attack the clinical aspect of the disease so that we may have a better understanding of its importance.”

Order! Does that not fall under the Department of Health?

These funds fall under the Vote in respect of the C.S.I.R., a body which in turn falls under the Department of Planning.

Order! I should like to warn hon. members that if they want to go so far as the hon. member for Berea is now going, we can discuss every one of the 52 Votes under this Vote.

We are trying to find out what planning is in fact undertaken by this Department.

I feel it is only fair that I should draw the attention of the hon. the Minister of Planning to the small amount which has been allocated to the Department of Health in this connection in previous years. During the last number of years only R24,000 has been allocated to the Department of Health, an amount which has now been reduced to R22,000.

That is only an additional amount which has been granted to them.

Compare that with the amount made available for the treatment of tuberculosis, i.e. R14,000,000, in respect of venereal diseases, i.e. R210,000, malaria R156,000 and you will agree with me …

Under what Vote have those amounts been allocated?

Under the Vote of the Department of Health.

Order! In that case the hon. member cannot discuss it under this Vote.

I was only quoting those figures for the purpose of comparison. I believe this is a vital thing. We are told that bilharzia is affecting 3,000,000 South Africans; that, in fact, it is a world problem because it involves 500,000,000 people. Therefore I think we should have a clearer picture of what is going on. Some co-ordination should be done and this hon. Minister is the person to do it. In Rhodesia a higher amount per capita is being spent than anywhere else in Africa. Before I refer to a programme which has become necessary, I should like to draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that the World Health Organization exists to deal with these matters and that up to the present South Africa has not taken much advantage of the assistance which could be given. Last year there was a donation of R2,140 from this organization to assist in dealing with bilharzia. The hon. the Minister himself, in reply to a question, indicated that in 1963 R39,000 had been allocated by the C.S.I.R. for research. an amount which had been increased to R50,000 in 1965. But I believe this is not enough. People who are concerned with research and the treatment of bilharzia are worried because not enough is being done in South Africa. I submit that only the Department of Planning can co-ordinate a scheme which will include education, hygiene, the detection of symptoms and treatment. It is important to trace the origin and source of the disease amongst human beings. In this respect I should like to draw the attention of hon. members to one of the difficulties which exists in this regard. I know of a person, a young Bantu man, who was sent to hospital because he was suffering from bilharzia. There he was treated intensively as an out-patient but he kept on coming back for further treatment because the disease was not responding to the treatment he was receiving. Mr. Chairman, do you know why it was not responding? It was not responding because every time he walked to hospital he walked through the same river in which the disease was prevalent through the presence of snails and in this way he became re-infected every time while on his way to hospital. That is why I say with great emphasis that an overall plan is necessary to deal with this. It is no use having a watertight Department of Health dealing with the methods of treatment of bilharzia without there being a programme to educate those who do not understand the serious implications of the disease. There must be some co-ordination. That is why I bring this question to the notice of the hon. the Minister. Related to this question is also the question of water sports. I realize that this falls under another portfolio but surely in the matter of planning one must consider the implications of planning for water conservation.

Order! If hon. members keep on covering such a wide field I am afraid that the balance of the hours still available for Committee of Supply will all be taken up by discussions on this Vote. Therefore I should like the hon. member to come back to the Vote.

I will do that. Sir, by asking the hon. Minister to give this matter his serious consideration in an endeavour to co-ordinate the various factors which make this problem such a serious one.

Order! I think I should like to point out for the information of the Committee that the C.S.I.R. is the agent for every department as well as for every private individual who wants the C.S.I.R. to do something on their behalf against payment. Hon. members therefore should not ask the Minister of Planning to take up matters falling outside the scope of his department with the C.S.I.R. What they should do is to take a matter up with each department concerned therewith. It is out of order to raise all these various matters under this Vote.

Mr. Chairman, may I be allowed to point out that on the estimates for the Department of Planning there is an item relating to research projects by Government departments for which an amount of more than R10,000,000 is being provided. Are these projects not then being undertaken by the Department of Planning?

Order! The Minister has already explained what this money was for. He did not cover these matters which concerned other departments.

May I submit to you, Mr. Chairman, that the main function of this department has been stated to be that of a co-ordinating body. The submission of the hon. member for Berea is that there are so many Government departments involved in this matter that it seems well-nigh impossible to get one department to deal adequately with this matter in this House. What the hon. member was trying to do was to make an appeal to the Minister to co-ordinate all the efforts of the various departments so that a mass attack can be made on this very serious problem.

Order! My ruling is that the hon. member should appeal to the Department of Health rather than to the Department of Planning to have these things done.

I think it was last year when a member raised the question of bilharzia and snails in furrows with the Minister of Health the reply of the Minister of Health to him was that he should speak to the Minister of Water Affairs whose job it was to construct furrows. Surely, under the circumstances, we must raise this matter with the hon. the Minister of Planning.

Order! At any rate, I appeal to hon. members not to go too far under this Vote. As I have already pointed out, if the wide scope of the discussion hitherto is allowed to continue, it will be possible to discuss matters concerning everyone of the 52 Votes under this Vote.

If there is any yardstick for measuring the activities of the Department of Planning, it is the lack of criticism on the part of the Opposition. That is the reason why they now want to cover the entire field with the result that they are at variance with the Chairman continually. As regards Johannesburg, we are very proud of the work which is being done by this Department and for that reason we are very grateful that this Department has been established so as to solve the problems with which we have been struggling there for many years. When the United Party still governed this country we in Johannesburg feared racial conflicts from day to day. Only after proper planning had been undertaken and group areas had been established for the purpose of effecting proper separation between the various race groups did we in Johannesburg experience racial harmony and harmonious co-existence amongst the various race groups.

On this occasion I want to broach the subject of the Chinese in Johannesburg. We in Johannesburg are looking forward eagerly to the Department finding an area for the Chinese which can be proclaimed a group area for them The existing state of affairs in Johannesburg cannot be allowed to continue. There are always complaints that the Chinese are penetrating into White areas. We are aware of the fact that the Chinese do not know where to go and that being the case they simply go to areas where houses are available. Now it happens that this infiltration is usually into areas where Whites of the lower income group are living and as soon as the Chinese make their appearance friction arises. For this reason we are asking that the Department should give its serious attention to this matter. As a matter of fact, we trust that the Minister will make an announcement soon that an area has been found where the Chinese can be settled.

Another matter which I also want to raise here with a feeling of gratitude concerns group areas for Coloureds. We are fortunate that the problem as regards group areas for Coloureds has virtually been solved and we are grateful for what has already been done in this respect. We know that it is the intention to resettle those Coloureds, who still find themselves in White areas, in their own areas. But the thing which causes concern is that we continually have to hear that more and more land is required for the settlement of Coloureds. We should like to know whether it is not possible for the Department to determine on the basis of statistics what the requirements of the Coloureds will be in this respect for the next 50 or perhaps 100 years. It causes great inconvenience to the public if the announcement is made at some stage that sufficient land has been found for the resettlement of Coloureds and a request for more land is made within a year. This also involves the problem that the quantity of available land is becoming more limited. Recently we had a case where the City Council of Johannesburg originally requested a certain area to be proclaimed an area for Coloured occupation but subsequently requested that that should not be done on account of the fact that land required for the settlement of Whites was becoming somewhat limited. Here I come to what to my mind is a very important point, namely whether sufficient regard is being had to existing areas within the boundaries of the city where Whites can be properly housed if replanning was to be undertaken. There are areas, especially in the central part of Johannesburg, where conditions are deteriorating because the houses are so old People living there are moving away to other residential areas and others are moving in while the buildings deteriorate from day to day. Those areas will eventually be declared slum areas. Now we want to know whether the Department of Planning is having sufficient regard to these areas and whether it is consulted when new White residential areas are laid out, particularly outside the existing city boundaries. I am convinced that if we go into this matter, we shall find that those areas may be utilized to good purpose and that that may solve the problem which may arise in the near future, namely that too little land will be available for the settlement of Whites. Now, because those areas are situated within the existing boundaries of the city, the laying-out or replanning of residential areas there may be considerably cheaper and may require considerably less capital because services, such as the supply of water, streets, lights, sewage and similar services are already available. But now we find that instead of concentrating in those areas people go to areas outside the existing urban areas to lay out new White residential areas at tremendous capital expenditure thereby creating a state of affairs which places such houses virtually beyond the reach of the lower and middle income groups. We want to make a strong plea that the Department of Planning must give serious attention to this aspect and that it will see to it that new areas are not laid out injudiciously outside existing urban areas while existing areas are becoming real nuisances and subsequently develop into areas creating problems, areas where undesirable conditions develop and continue to develop and into which other race groups infiltrate causing further difficulties.

I want to conclude by saying once again that we in Johannesburg are grateful for what is being done. To-day we are living there in peace. We are experiencing harmonious coexistence between various race groups for the very reason that they have been separated residentially whereby that continual contact has been eliminated.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Langlaagte has referred to a fortunate set of circumstances in Johannesburg. Whereas, according to him, there has been proper planning in the suburbs of Johannesburg, in my opinion there has been no such proper planning, no “doeltreffendheid”, as the hon. member said, in the planning of the Peninsula.

Now I said on another occasion that I did not believe in criticizing unless one makes constructive proposals and these I propose to make. Let us deal for a moment with the group areas investigations in the Southern Peninsula. Since 1956—that is ten years ago— there have been no fewer than six group areas investigations in the Southern Peninsula. One of them in fact was a re-investigation. Ten years later there is wide-spread confusion, dissatisfaction and uncertainty about the future of the area. There have been two proclamations, and I should like to-day to deal with one of them. The first proclamation concerns the Pollsmoor-Westlake-Retreat areas. They were proclaimed White on the 10th February, 1961. At that time, there were no fewer than four Coloured institutions in that White group area, and they are still there. Not only are they still there, but there have been two further Government Coloured institutions provided in that White group area since the proclamation.

Order! As soon as an area is proclaimed it falls under the Department of Community Development and not under the Department of Planning.

That I understand, Mr. Chairman, but I am illustrating my point that there are certain areas that have been proclaimed where the Department of Planning’s actions have not been consistent, and there are certain other areas which are not proclaimed where the inconsistent attitude of the Department is equally obvious.

That point can be raised under the Vote of the Department of Community Development. It does not fall under this Vote at all.

Mr. Chairman, surely the planning of an area …

The planning aspect is completed as soon as the proclamation is issued. As soon as the proclamation is issued the group area falls under the Department of Community Development.

Then I shall proceed to deal with those areas that are not proclaimed.

That the hon. member may do.

Areas that are not proclaimed are areas such as Noordhoek and Kommetle. They have only been subject to an investigation. In 1964. the Divisional Council of the Cape proceeded to apply to the Department of Community Development for a housing loan with which to erect certain non-European houses. Recently, I asked certain questions in this regard and received answers to the effect that there were to be 50 families in an economic housing scheme and 112 families in a sub-economic housing scheme. The cost of both the economic and the sub-economic housing schemes in the Noordhoek-Kommetjie area was to have been R165,000. Loans were made to the Divisional Council by the Department of Community Development and interest was in fact paid on those loans.

In August of this year the Divisional Council arched to the Department of Community Development for authority to transfer their loan funds to another area, also an unproclaimed area, namely Kommetjie. Permission was duly given. But the land which the Divisional Council has purchased in the Kommetjie area is a very much larger stretch of land than that on which it was planned to build the economic and sub-economic housing schemes in the Noordhoek area. I then asked the Minister of Planning in the middle of August whether he had prohibited the Noordhoek Coloured housing schemes, and his answer was that on the 30th September, 1965, “it was mutually agreed due to the nature, situation and restrictedness of the area at Noordhoek, coupled with the fact that Soetwater has been reserved by the Divisional Council for the Coloureds, (as also recommended by the Beach Committee) to purchase land (at Kommetjie) instead of at Noordhoek”.

Well, Mr. Chairman, there was a volte-face, if ever there was one, between 1964 and 1965 on the part of the Divisional Council; Because in representations to the Group Areas Board which was investigating that unproclaimed part of the Southern Peninsula on the 7th January, 1965, it said—

A further letter of the 16th November. 1965, from the regional representative of the Department of Community Development, to which department an inquiry had been addressed, said—

Work had been stopped shortly after it had begun.

The hon. member is now dealing with the Department of Community Development.

Only to show that in this unproclaimed area there is no planning on behalf of this Department. As soon as I have finished quoting from this letter I will then deal with further unproclaimed areas, falling under the Department of Planning.

Once it has been proclaimed, it falls under this department.

It is not proclaimed.

I know that it is not proclaimed, but you are pleading that it should be proclaimed.

All that I am asking is whether the Minister wants this Coloured housing scheme in the Noordhoek area, which is unproclaimed, or the Kommetjie area, which is also unproclaimed.

But I have nothing to do with that. Surely the Divisional Council …

The answer from the Minister was to the effect that his department had not prohibited this housing scheme, but that it had been mutually agreed as a result of discussions between his department and the Divisional Council to move the scheme to Kommetjie.

That is the Department of Community Development.

No, the Department of Planning.

May I tell you why? It is because that particular area was advertised for investigation either as a Coloured or as a White area. It has not yet been decided. The reason is that if they build there for Coloureds and it is subsequently proclaimed a European area, then I think it will be completely wrong if they build.

With great respect, Mr. Chairman, in reply to certain questions that I asked, the Minister’s answer was that the scheme had not been prohibited by his department …

Exactly.

… but that it had been agreed between his department and the Divisional Council …

If they wish to they can carry on.

… that it should be sited elsewhere than at Noordhoek.

They can carry on: They are free to do so to-morrow.

If the hon. the Minister will allow me to complete quoting from this letter from the Department of Community Development I shall then move on to two other unproclaimed areas. The letter of the 16th November, 1965, concludes by saying—

Now, the reasons which could not have been disclosed at that time, I can only assume were that the Minister of Planning and the Divisional Council of the Cape were entering into secret negotiations to move the scheme to Kommetjie. That is why I quoted the letter from the Department of Community Development.

Now, may I proceed to a further unproclaimed area in the Southern Peninsula. I should like to deal with Simonstown. In 1959 the Group Areas Board made certain proposals to Simonstown, and those proposals are apparently still under consideration. Since then there has been a further investigation, at the beginning of 1965. The same applies to Kalk Bay. There has been one investigation there, at the beginning of 1965. The point that I am making is that with regard to Simonstown there has been uncertainty and confusion in the minds of all residents of that area since 1959. [Time limit.]

Mr. Chairman, I really hope my speech will not be as negative as some of those to which we had to listen this afternoon, and which were actually a tale of woe because the speakers had not taken the trouble to ascertain exactly what was going on if they could do so. I am grateful that the hon. the Minister has given us the opportunity of obtaining certain information as regards planning, particularly planning of industrial settlement as mentioned in respect of the Wit-bank-Bethal area. Then the hon. the Minister mentioned coal reserve figures in respect of those areas. Now I want to ask the Minister not to keep to one side of the border only, but to go to the Natal side too. In this regard I want to mention certain figures. The figures in respect of the coal fields about Vryheid will indicate clearly that there may be planning in that direction and that development for that area may have to be undertaken in future.

Order! Has anything been planned in that regard? Is it something that falls under the Department and that is being considered by them?

The planning of Northern Natal as a whole is tied up with the planning of Richard’s Bay and the new railway line.

Is the region of which the hon. member is speaking included in the planning in respect of Richard’s Bay?

This region is still being planned, and we do not yet know exactly what the planning is there, and that is just what I am trying to find out. I say that Vryheid and its vicinity is rich in coal fields. In the Kliprivier-Vryheid-Utrecht complex, for example, more than 800.000.000 tons of coal is awaiting exploitation. As regards semi-anthracite coal, there is almost 200,000.000 tons. There are large areas that produced as much as 48.000.000 tons of coal during the period 1944-52.

How does that concern planning? Does it not fall under Mines?

No, I ask for your ruling. I take it that planning rests on four basic pillars, namely power, labour, water and coal, and then a fifth one may be added, namely the vicinity.

But the Department of Planning does not plan for the entire Republic in respect of water, power, and all those things. The hon. member must mention only matters that fall under the Department of Planning.

But if a new area is to be developed and new industries are to be established, can you tell me under what that falls?

The hon. member must raise it under the Commerce and Industries Vote in the first place, and ask them to refer it to the Department of Planning for its better development. It can be discussed here only if it is a function of the Department of Planning.

Mr. Chairman, you have allowed the hon. the Minister te tell us that the Richard’s Bay area is being planned, and that it has been declared a controlled area to allow certain developments to take place there.

That is why I asked whether this area was included in Richard’s Bay.

No.

Then the hon. member may not proceed with that. I am sorry.

A few minutes ago I was trying to find out whether the Minister had any plans for a certain unproclaimed area, or in fact two of them, Simonstown and Kalk Bay, and I said that in 1959 there had been an investigation in Simonstown, and there was a re-investigation in the beginning of 1965; that in Kalk Bay there had been no proposals, as there had been in the case of Simonstown, but there had been an investigation in the beginning of 1965. And I complained that because of the delays and the uncertainties, progress was not only being retarded in both those areas, but all sorts of hardships were being caused. I should like to begin my second ten minutes by quoting from a letter written to the Minister by the Municipality dated 28th December, 1964—

The letter goes on—

At the same time as the Simonstown Council wrote to the Department of Planning, I wrote to him in my capacity as a member of the Provincial Council, concerning Kalk Bay, and I said this—

Now, I have quoted from these two letters because I want to make a special plea this afternoon to the Minister for him to consider the proclamation of group areas in both areas, and as soon as possible to remove the existing uncertainty. In doing so, I am making a further plea because of the unique character of both Coloured and Malay communities of Simonstown and of Kalk Bay, for the establishment of a group area within a group area. The Coloured and Malay communities of Simonstown and of Kalk Bay have been established in segregated areas in those towns for hundreds of years. The Kalk Bay and Simonstown Malay and Coloured communities have been engaged in fishing for the last 200 years, in fact 100 years before the first Voortrekker left the Cape Province. I do not believe it would be right or equitable for those established and settled communities, making their living out of the sea, to be moved to any other areas. The uncertainty that exists as the result of the non-proclamation of group areas in the Southern Peninsula has caused considerable disjointment of planning programmes, housing programmes of local municipalities, and has affected property values; it in addition causing great unhappiness not only to the non-Whites concerned but also to the Whites. My plea is that, if there is to be a proclamation of group areas in Simonstown and in Kalk Bay, then it should be a consolidating measure whereby existing separate residential areas of the various racial groups should be brought together, and under no circumstances should these racial groups be removed from the area altogether.

I was shocked by the hon. member for Simonstown, who suggested and requested this afternoon that the Minister of Planning should maintain the status quo at Simonstown and Kalk Bay. I am convinced that that prejudices not only the rights of the White public of Simonstown and Kalk Bay, but also the rights the Coloureds of Simonstown and Kalk Bay should enjoy there. Let me say at once that the delays that have occurred at Simonstown and Kalk Bay are attributable solely to the fact that one should look further afield than merely those two complexes. In other words, Simonstown and Kalk Bay fit into a larger pattern, and it would be a mistake to issue that proclamation too early, before the time is ripe to do so and before the pattern is ready. I therefore want to tell the hon. member that I am convinced that the Minister will come with that planning and that proclamation at the right time, and that it is solely in the interests of the people concerned that those delays are occurring.

In the second place I want to come to the hon. member for Houghton. I am actually surprised that the hon. member for Houghton moved one step lower to-day and said that she would have been satisfied if only we had given the Coloureds in the Peninsula a little bit more. Through the years the Progressive Party has attacked group areas and separate beaches in principle.

I am still doing that.

She says they are still doing that, because Dr. Wollheim, M.P.C., who is of one mind with the hon. member for Houghton, said that the Coloureds did not mind swimming among and next to the Whites, and they also went further and said that the Whites did not mind having the Coloureds swim among them. That is the attitude adopted by the hon. member for Houghton. Now I want to say at once that we cannot argue on those grounds, because we look at the matter from different viewpoints; we cannot sit next to one another. But I want to tell the hon. member that the people of South Africa expect separation. I further want to tell her that the Coloured population of South Africa expects separation possibilities from this Government. It is also clear that they are receiving much more since this Government initiated this separation policy.

But it is not clear to me what the hon. member’s argument has to do with this Vote.

Beach facilities fall under the Minister of Planning. I want to tell you, Sir, that when the Coloureds of Cape Town were in the hands of the Cape Town City Council, for many years, from 1903 to 1920, only R21,000 was spent on Coloured facilities on our beaches, and in the same period more than R1,000,000 was spent in respect of the Whites in Cape Town.

On a point of order, the development of those beaches falls under Community Development.

They come under group areas. They have not yet been proclaimed.

I can quite appreciate that they are hypersensitive now, but the position is that the hon. member for Houghton said that we should have done more for the Coloureds in the Peninsula. Let me tell her that in the Peninsula we have the Atlantic coastline of 11.8 miles. Of that, 5.58 miles of beach cannot be used. The harbour takes up 3.92 miles. In other words, on the Atlantic coastline 2.3 miles of beach can be used. That is all there is. They now come with the argument, and it suits the Progressives and the United Party, that there are more Coloureds in Cape Town than Whites. That is so, but the fact of the matter is that there may be 193,819 Whites as against 266,977 Coloureds, but in dealing with beaches we have to do with a much larger number of Whites who come to Cape Town for beach purposes than there are Coloureds. There are even people who come from England to Cape Town to enjoy the beach facilities for a certain part of the year. Therefore neither the Progressive Party nor the United Party should use that kind of argument.

I want to use this opportunity to congratulate the hon. the Minister on this happy day of weak attacks on group areas, which used to be the most severe attacks through all these years. I believe that to be the result of the sincerity that inspires this hon. Minister and of his approach to the matter. But I want to make one plea to him. In small towns throughout the country, wherever there are small concentrations of Indians, we have one problem. Most of them are associated with commerce. Now it is difficult to have those people absorbed by larger Indian complexes. The problem cannot be solved until they have been absorbed by those larger complexes. My request is that for the transition period the hon. the Minister should enquire through his Department whether it is not possible to have these small concentrations of Indians in the rural towns absorbed by permit areas until such time as they can be absorbed by larger Indian concentrations. If we can succeed in doing so, I am convinced that we will satisfy the people in those towns who are at present asking why they have no segregation in their towns yet, despite the fact that there are group areas. I believe this to be the only way in which this problem can be solved, because there is no other solution. I want to make a friendly request that the Minister should investigate this matter.

I want to deal with the principle of group areas. The hon. member for Klip River, in making his point, has made it quite clear that he does not concede that people who have lived for years and years in a place have any rights there at all. I want to know from the Minister exactly what his policy is in regard to the declaration of group areas. Take the Simonstown-Kalk Bay complex. What is the Minister’s policy in regard to the people settled in those areas? Have they any rights there at all or not? Are they going to be moved far afield? Is he taking into consideration, for example, the fact that those communities are there in all cases because they have been employed there and because there is a necessity to have them there? I should like the Minister to make a statement so that we will understand once and for all what the policy is with the declaration of group areas. I think to-morrow is the second anniversary of the proclamation of a place called Isipingo Beach for Indian occupation. This proclamation was made following a hearing held by the Group Areas Board. I have been trying ever since that hearing to find out on what basis Isipingo Beach was proclaimed for Indian occupation. I am not questioning the fact that it has been proclaimed, but what I want to know is how the Group Areas Board in fact comes to a decision. I asked this Minister’s predecessor on what grounds Isipingo Beach—and I used this as a practical example—was proclaimed for Indian occupation, but I have been unable to get an answer from this Minister’s predecessor. In the hearing of the Group Areas Board at Isipingo it was conceded on all sides, I think, that not one person, either White or Indian, at that hearing asked for Isipingo Beach to be other than White, but it was proclaimed for Indians. I cannot understand. If the Board sits as a court sits and hears evidence, do they in fact take any notice of that evidence? I can only come to the conclusion that they take no notice whatsoever of the evidence. The hon. member for Klip River was the chairman of the Group Areas Board and he has not thrown any light on the matter. In fact, as far as I am concerned, he has clouded the issue, and that is why I must ask this Minister for a statement, We also had statements that the Minister, together with his colleagues, was prepared to submit proclamations to a regional plan. I want to know from the Minister whether in fact he is abiding by that decision? If these group areas are going to be planned in accordance with a regional plan, to serve the area which it is intended to serve, is he going to place the Indian, the Coloured and the Bantu groups, in consultation with his colleagues, in the areas which are most suitable, taking all the factors necessary to formulate a regional plan into consideration? I have been looking for these facts ever since these hearings started affecting us in Natal and I must be quite honest with you, Sir, and say that I am no further forward now than I was when that hearing took place on Isipingo Beach, because I have been unable to get any answers to my questions.

What alternative areas do you suggest?

That is not my point. I am satisfied that the law existed and the law provided for the Group Areas Board to take evidence as to the particular use to which an area should be put and for what group it should be used. People have come forward and given that evidence, and here I have presented the Minister with a concrete case, but the Board decided something quite different. The evidence was absolutely unanimous that Isipingo Beach should not be used for other than White occupation. Those are facts, and I think the Minister will accept them. It was proclaimed for Indian occupation. What I want to know is why the Group Areas Board came to that decision in the face of that evidence. Were the people who gave evidence in fact wasting their time? Had the decision in fact been made before the Board called for evidence? That would appear to be the position. It would appear that the decision was first made and that the Group Areas Board then held a hearing which, if I am correct, was a mock hearing. The decision was probably made before the Board sat. Sir, these are the things that I want to know: What are the facts that influence the Group Areas Board in coming to their decisions? Are they influenced to any extent whatsoever by the evidence which is presented to them, and if so, to what extent? If I can get that information from the hon. the Minister I will be very pleased indeed, and it will give us an entirely new approach to the proclamation of group areas, which is now in the hands of the hon. the Minister.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister what role the Department of Planning will play in the future of the Cape Peninsula. I am aware of the subdivision into regions that is being undertaken by his Department and in terms of which the Cape Peninsula will be known as Planning Region No 1, embracing an area consisting more or less of the present Cape Peninsula. When one considers the population figures for 1960, one finds that in that year there were 305,000 Whites and 417,000 Coloureds out of a total population of 807,000 inhabitants living in the Cape Peninsula. The Cape Peninsula, up to the magisterial district of Bellville, accommodated about one-tenth of the total White population of the Republic and about one-quarter of the total Coloured population of the Republic. Having regard to advance estimates of the population of our country as a whole and without taking immigration and emigration into consideration, one can therefore accept the fact that by the year 1980, there will be about 410,000 Whites and about 675,000 Coloureds living here in the Cape Peninsula. I think that these figures are minimum figures. The problems which will arise in this area and in regard to which I feel the hon. the Minister’s Department ought to play a pre-eminent role are, firstly, the demarcation of residential areas, secondly, the demarcation of industrial areas, thirdly, the demarcation and provision of beach and other pleasure resorts and, lastly, generally speaking, the planned development of this region as a whole.

A committee came into being in this area in the past which we know to-day as the Joint Town Planning Committee, and the function of this committee in the past, when the Coloured population was actually a permanent part of the White municipal areas, was to bring about more or less planned development in the Cape Peninsula, but I feel that within the next decade a problem will arise here in the Cape Peninsula which, with the exception of the case of Durban, will be practically unique. While other non-White groups, like the Bantu in other cities, will always live in areas administered by White municipalities, what will amount to virtually two cities will of necessity eventually come into being here in the Cape Peninsula. On the one hand a city will spring up which will be a Coloured city and which will have 1,000,000 or more inhabitants, and next to that city will spring up a White city of more or less the same size. Although in the past this body which is known as the Joint Town Planning Committee played a very useful role inasmuch as it performed the function of ensuring orderly development among the various municipalities, I believe that in the years to come it will no longer be able to fulfil that function. In the first instance, there are already ten municipal areas and divisional councils in this area, but before long the Administrator of the Cape will no longer be competent to decide how the Coloured municipalities ought to develop, because one must expect the control over the Coloured municipalities eventually to pass into the hands of the Coloured group through the medium of their representative councils. That is why I feel that for this reason alone the Department of Planning will in the years to come to a large extent have to take over the function which was in the past fulfilled by the Joint Town Planning Committee, viz., the orderly development of this region, and particularly so because two urban complexes will be rising up alongside one another. For this reason too I want to make an appeal to-day that we should rather delay the determination of new group areas at this stage in areas where there are no people living at the moment—I am referring to areas to the east of Milnerton and to the establishment of new beach resorts—until this Department has felt its way forward and has ascertained what part it ought to play in the development of this region as a whole. If this Department takes upon itself this necessary function of co-ordination in connection with the development of this area, I want to appeal to it to ensure that a master plan is drawn up for this area in terms of which the various Government Departments, the Provincial Administration and the local authorities will have a clear picture of the sphere in which they will have to move. I believe that this Department, the establishment of which perhaps gave rise to certain misgivings, will after all have to play a unique role here in the Cape Peninsula, and I ask the hon. the Minister to give us an indication of the part which in his opinion his Department is going to play in the future in this regional development.

It surprised me to hear the hon. member for Langlaagte complaining about the “infiltration” of Chinese in White residential areas in Johannesburg, because he ought to know that where Chinese live among Whites they do so under permit from his own Government. I have in the past few years conducted correspondence with the Minister’s Department in connection with the position in Johannesbury of two population groups, namely the Indians and the Chinese. According to the latest communication I have received from the hon. the Minister’s Department it is the intention of the Department to establish a group area within the municipal boundaries of Johannesburg for the Chinese. The hon. the Minister has been working on that for a few years now and has still not reached finality in the matter. On the one hand it is of course not fair to leave people in uncertainty in regard to so important a matter; on the other hand I want to say to the hon. the Minister that I am nevertheless glad to learn that the Government is not acting over-hastily in the case of the Chinese. These Chinese are South Africans and they do not seek assistance from outside. The Republic of China is an influential factor in the councils of the world; they have consular representation here in South Africa and the hon. the Minister must be aware of the fact that they keep a very close watch on the treatment received here by people of Chinese descent, and that they are particularly sensitive about any discrimination which is made between Chinese and Japanese. I therefore hope that whatever action is taken by the Government will only be taken after consultation with the leaders of the Chinese community and that it will at all stages obtain their co-operation and approval before action is taken. That should of course be done in the case of all population groups, but at the moment I am dealing specifically with the Chinese and the Indians. I wonder whether it is not possible for the hon. the Minister to find a formula according to which certain parts of a city like Johannesburg can be left as “free areas” where minority groups such as the small number of Chinese there can find a haven. We have the position in South Africa that there are certain minority groups which are very small; we have groups of families which do not fit into the main classifications of the Government. I think it would lead to much greater satisfaction on the part of these minority groups if such a formula could be found rather than to segregate a small number of people like the Chinese in a conspicuous way. I have noticed that the hon. the Minister and his Department take the view that a group area for the Chinese should be established within the municipal area of Johannesburg. In actual fact it should follow automatically that people who live in a city should be entitled to remain living within the area of that city, also in terms of the group areas policy. Therefore I should very much like to inquire from the hon. the Minister what progress he has made in regard to the declaration of a group area for the other group of people of eastern origin, namely the Indians, within the municipal area of Johannesburg. I hope the hon. the Minister is not going to persist with the argument that Lenasia has been provided for the Indians. It was very unfair to the Indian community of Johannesburg to establish Lenasia 18 miles from the centre of Johannesburg. Some of the poorest people now have to pay more than 40 cents a day merely to get to their work. The hon. the Minister is not personally responsible for that arrangement, but I may say to him that an undertaking such as Lenasia, as it stands at present, is a serious reflection on the policy of the Government.

There are many Whites too who live a long way from the city.

There are Whites too who live a long way from their work, but then it is by their own choice; they live there by their own free choice in circumstances which suit them. In Johannesburg the Whites have 250 and more White residential areas from which they can choose one in which to live, but the large Indian community of Johannesburg, all of them, have to remove to a distance and do not even have one single residential area within the municipal boundaries of Johannesburg. The only residential area which they have is Lenasia, which is situated far beyond the boundaries of Johannesburg. The hon. the Minister knows that he has also received representations from the Indian Council in this regard. They feel that a residential area for Indians should be established within the boundaries of Greater Johannesburg so that the Indians would not all be forced to go and live outside the boundaries of Johannesburg. There are hundreds of Indian businessmen to-day who have business interests in the city itself, and although they are opposed to group areas in principle, they are perfectly prepared to co-operate with the Government if a suitable place is set aside for them within the municipal area of Johannesburg think it is a reasonable and a justified attitude that these people adopt when they say. “Very well, we shall co-operate with the Government, but then be fair as far as the demarcation of areas is concerned and give us an area which is situated within the municipality and within reasonably easy reach of the business centre of Johannesburg and which would leave us a choice”. I think the hon. the Minister should take prompt action in this regard. According to the information that one has. large numbers of businessmen are regularly being told to leave their present abodes in the city, and I think it is extremely unfair to such an important group of South Africans that no place within the boundaries of Johannesburg is being set aside for them as a group area and that they are being given no choice of abode whatsoever, because they are all being forced to go to one place which is situated far beyond the boundaries of Johannesburg. My information is that the Government, after the Indian Council also asked for it, is giving serious consideration to establishing a group area for the Indians which will be nearer to the centre of Johannesburg. I hope that the hon. the Minister will do something in this direction.

Business suspended at 6.30 p.m. and resumed at 8.05 p.m.

Evening Sitting

Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that as the debate progresses the Opposition are becoming more and more aware of what planning really is. I want to refer you to the hon. member for Wynberg, who said at one stage that she was completely in the dark. It seems to me that she too has now been blessed with greater clarity and that she is no longer in the dark as far as planning is concerned.

I want to say something about the importance of research to our national economy. I should like here to mention a very important point, viz., that the world powers giving the lead in the world to-day are precisely those powers which make large amounts available for research. The position is no longer as it was formerly when, if a country was the leader in the sphere of the steel industry or some other industry, it did not necessarily follow that that country was a leading power. We find to-day that it is precisely those nations which spend vast sums of money on research which are the leaders in the international sphere. Thus we find that the United States of America spends an amount of R126,000 billion on research alone. This is an annual amount. The funds which they make available for research are what actually count to-day and for this reason I want to say that under no circumstances in our national economy must we regard research as being unimportant. To judge from the discussion here, it would appear to me that some hon. members do not appreciate the importance of research and what it means to us. I may also just mention here that if we do not continually strive to improve our research and make it more dynamic, we shall lag behind, and this we cannot afford to do, particularly as South Africa is the leader in various spheres in the continent of Africa. Here I am thinking of research in regard to which a great deal of progress has been made in recent years, particularly in the U.S.A., in regard to the chemical and pharmaceutical industries. The attention being devoted to these by way of research indicates that this aspect is something which will assume great significance in the future, and that where shortages may arise in various spheres of the economy, the needs may be supplied by combining chemical elements to form substances resembling the final and orthodox product of to-day.

Mr. Chairman, in this connection I should like to refer you to what was said by the hon. member for Hillbrow. I quote from Hansard—

In view of the important fact that we here in South Africa have vast resources of raw materials for the atomic industry, I want to ask the hon. member for Hillbrow—bearing in mind the great respect which he has for America and the fact that she is where she is to-day because of research—particularly in regard to “the 90 per cent of the free world’s supply of nuclear capacity”, whether he is in favour of South Africa’s concentrating upon research in connection with nuclear energy. There are, of course, various directions in which we can develop in the spheres of both war and peace. This question of atomic energy —or. as this hon. member and others like to put it, the atomic bomb—gives authority and status to a country. We have all the raw materials for this purpose here in South Africa. The only thing we are lacking is the process for refining the uranium ores, a small portion of which can be used for atomic fission. I now want to ask the hon. the Minister and the Opposition—apparently the hon. member for Hillbrow has planted the idea in their minds— while they do not begrudge America the authority and status she holds through the medium of atomic energy, whether South Africa should not enjoy a similar status. If we have this support from the Opposition, I do not see why the hon. the Minister should not make funds available for further research in this direction in order that South Africa may achieve that status and exploit potential world esteem in this regard. That will be of very great value to us. For example, we are spending a great deal on research in connection with prospecting for oil. I just want to say that there is one golden rule in regard to oil. Providence so ordained that South Africa should have a plentiful supply of all the mineral elements, but to judge on the surface, she is unable to find oil. [Time limit.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister of Planning is well aware that I raised the question of the settlement of Chinese in a certain portion of my constituency where they are in occupation at the moment. I received a reply from the hon. the Minister of Community Development stating that this matter had been taken up with his Department and that a conference would be held at an early date; in fact I think that the date for this conference was given as to-day a week ago. The whole matter was then going to be discussed. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether there have been any further developments and whether there has been any conclusion or decision and whether he is at an early date going to proclaim a group area for the Chinese community and, as the hon. member for Bezuidenhout rightly said, whether it will be within the confines of the Johannesburg municipality. I hope that the hon. the Minister can give me some information in this regard.

I notice under Head G that a large sum of money is provided. Section (1) provides for the expenditure of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research. One knows what that is being spent on as reports appear from time to time on the activities of that organization and I may say that they are most informative in regard to the activities of the Council. Section (2), however, provides for research projects for Government departments. Capital expenditure of just over R1,250,000 is provided for and over R9,500.000 is provided for running expenses, an increase of nearly R6,000,000 on the figure for the previous year. I should like to know the details in this regard. Is this in connection with oil exploration? Is this the expenditure involved in the programme for the search for oil? I should like to know exactly what these few items cover. It is very difficult to ascertain what they represent. As this is the Department of Planning, this may be disclosed in the reports of other departments but it is most difficult to tie them up with this item in the Estimates. I would ask the hon. the Minister to explain fully these two matters.

In the course of this debate, Mr. Chairman, I have been struck with the fact, and you, Sir, have contributed to some extent to the impression I have gained, that there is a certain amount of confusion about what the Department of Planning can do and cannot do, and where it begins and where it ends. Mr. Chairman, I see you nod your head in very ready assent because it is very blatant that that is the position. And, to my mind, if there is any department which should issue an annual report, it is the Department of Planning because, and I hope that the hon. the Minister will take this as a constructive suggestion and not a criticism, I find that whenever the Department of Planning is discussed, there is vagueness and uncertainty. Very often one is referred to the Department of Planning when the matter may not be its concern, and one might be referred to other departments when the Department of Planning is concerned. I think that it is high time that we had a comprehensive annual report telling us what the functions of the Department are, what Acts the Department deals with, what its activities are and on what it is spending its money. I think that this would be a most informative document and it would help considerably to make the debates in this House perhaps more useful than they are to-day because there is vagueness and uncertainty and we are all searching, including, if I may say so, you Mr. Chairman. I think that an annual report would put a stop to this and I earnestly request the Minister to consider this question of issuing an annual report. I would ask him not to let it be two or three years late; do not follow the practice of other departments because after all it is the Department of Planning. If he plans, he can get this report out early and it will be of use to everybody.

Mr. Chairman, I find it most interesting to see the hon. member for Von Brandis, who was silent in this House for so many years, become so loquacious in this Session after having been through an election. In actual fact, the Opposition operated by means of questions only to-day, and merely expressed their gratitude to the hon. the Minister for this Department and its work. I think I should associate myself with the expressions of gratitude and praise to the hon. the Minister for the work of his Department. [Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, that is what has happened, and that is exactly the opposite of what the Opposition did earlier this year in their censure motion, when they spoke of “lack of foresight” and no planning. Now, towards the end of the Session, their consciences are troubling them and now they begin praising the hon. the Minister and his Department. We all see it, of course, as a pat on the shoulder for this Department, the hon. the Minister and all his officials, for the great work they have done. We are grateful for the exposition given to-day by the hon. the Minister, but there is one aspect of planning that I should like to bring to the hon. the Minister’s attention, and that relates to urban planning. We know that there is a tremendous shortage of urban planners and regional planners, but as a result of the tremendous growth taking place in South Africa at present, and as a result of the National Party’s good régime and Government, we find that the cities are growing tremendously and are bursting their seams. In my own constituency I find that more and more blocks of flats are mushrooming, and that is found in all our large cities throughout South Africa. Now, I want to plead that in South Africa all forces should be linked as far as urban planning is concerned. I want to ask that where cities extend in this way, there should be more open parks in the flat-building areas.

The hon. member is now discussing a topic that has nothing to do with the Department of Planning.

I ask that there should be planning and co-ordination between the provincial councils, the local authorities and other concerns.

That does not appertain to this Vote.

Mr. Chairman, if that is your ruling, I shall leave it at that, although there is a great deal that this Department may do in that regard. Then I want to say something about the development atlas that is being compiled. A great deal has been done in that regard, and we know that it has made considerable progress, but we shall be very grateful if the work on that atlas can be expedited and if it can be printed soon.

But surely that is done by the Department of Economic Affairs.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member has no idea of what is going on in this Department; he has no idea of what planning is, and then he speaks of Economic Affairs. We shall be grateful if that work can be expedited so that we may get this economic atlas for purposes of general study, and particularly for this Opposition, so that they may become conversant with what the Department of Planning is actually doing.

Finally I just want to ask a question with regard to our universities. The Department has already planned many projects with regard to which research has to be undertaken, and these have been assigned to the universities, but we want to ask that more use should be made of post-graduate students in order to draw them into these research projects of the Department. If that is done, those projects will also serve as suitable study projects for the student, and not only will it serve as study projects for them, but they will then be trained from their youth to do this kind of work in the interests of South Africa. When they leave university eventually they will not be lost in practice but will have gained all that knowledge and experience. We, and also the Department, will then be able to make very good use of them in practice.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Sunnyside began by saying that members of the Opposition had thanked the hon. the Minister of Planning. I should like to ask him:

Where did we thank the hon. the Minister? For what and when did we thank him? It is in fact our attitude that we cannot find out whether there is anything to thank him for, because he as Minister of Planning does not want to tell us what he is planning! Of an appropriation of R20,000,000 no less than R11,000,000 is being made available for research projects for other Government Departments, and we do not know what those research projects are.

I believe that this Department of Planning can become one of the most important departments of the entire Government, even to the extent of being second or third in order of importance. But then this department must be expanded, and we must know what it is doing, and it must be able to do its work of co-ordination. For example, I believe that one of the most important functions with which the hon. the Minister is charged at the moment, is the planning of the water supplies of the entire country.

Sir, I am grateful that this matter does not fall under the Department of Water Affairs. I am grateful that on the Rand this matter has not been left to the Rand Water Board, which falls under the hon. the Minister of Health. I am grateful that there is this central body which is going to co-ordinate the plans for the water supplies of South Africa for the future. I hope I am right, because if that is not the position, and if there is still chaos today as there was in the past, and if this Department of Planning is not concerned with the matter at all, it is really a terrible indictment of this department.

The big Water Commission consists of members appointed by the hon. the Minister. When I put a question to him, he supplied me with the names of the members of that Water Commission. I want to say at once that there are very good men on that Commission. There are persons of ability and persons who have already done a great deal in connection with water conservation. All the same, I am sorry to see that the municipalities of Johannesburg and Pretoria have so little representation on the Commission. There is one representative of the Rand Water Board. I see no one else on this commission of 15 members who does in fact represent the Witwatersrand and Pretoria. Possibly the hon. the Minister can tell us why that is the case. I am also sorry to see that there are no representatives of the Vaal River Catchment Association on the Commission. That is an organization which has for years been doing excellent work in connection with the major problem of the water in the Vaal River. I should have liked to see these changes being made with regard to this commission.

As far as the Vaal Triangle is concerned, we are faced with a possibly impending disaster. The cold and terrible fact of the matter is that the water in the Vaal Dam is to-day at the lowest level it has been in very many years. It is at 32 per cent to-day. If we get the same rain pattern in the next few months that we had last year, it is possible that by January the water in the Vaal Dam will be at 10 per cent only—a critical level. All the other projects apart from the Wi watersrand and the area of the Rand Water Board area will then be excluded from that last 10 per cent. You may therefore see, Sir, how critical the position is. We are therefore entitled to ask the hon. the Minister to ask that Water Commission as soon as may be to issue an interim report as soon as possible, in view of the imminent danger in the Vaal Triangle. The hon. the Minister will know that the following is stated in that commission’s terms of reference:

If ever there has been an urgent problem, it is this very problem in connection with the Vaal Triangle and of the diminishing water supply in that area. The country was promised this Water Commission as far back as January this year. We had to wait six months before it was appointed. After it had been appointed, more than a month elapsed before it held its first meeting. In the meantime the level of the Vaal Dam has dropped more and more and the position has become more and more urgent. I should very much like to know from the hon. the Minister how many times this Commission has met up to now. We know of one meeting. Has it had a meeting since? Has the Commission already received an instruction to the effect that it should regard this urgent problem of the Vaal Triangle as one of such major importance that it should immediately submit an interim report on what is to be done?

In many respects this Commission is too late already. Even if they build the Oppermansdrif Dam, it will only be completed in 1969, that is to say, only in two or three years’ time. Even if they raise the Vaal Dam by another ten feet, it will take another four or five years. Even these short-term plans, therefore, will not prevent a disaster from occurring on the Witwatersrand in May next year. They have not even started with short-term plans, with which they should have started a year ago, let alone the long-term plans. We have to demand that from the Minister. The Oppermansdrif Dam will be completed in 1969. Why has nothing positive been done yet in connection with the other urgent matter, namely the raising of the Vaal Dam? That is one of the most important aspects of the planning in regard to this urgent matter.

We do not have the water to fill it.

Yes, that is so. Even if one raises it, there is no water for it. Even a short-term policy will not provide a solution by May next year. As far as I can see, what can be done, amongst other things, is what is being done at the moment. One short-term plan is the spraying of the Vaal Dam. Did that come from this Commission? Did that come from Water Affairs? Did the Minister approve it? Where did they get the idea? I am glad that it has been done and I hope that it will have a good effect. That is perhaps one step that could have been taken before May next year.

Another step that can be taken is to launch a crash programme to persuade industries and organizations to go in for the re-use of water. The hon. the Minister knows that he has a very able man, namely Dr. Stander, the director of the National Water Research Institute, who is also serving on this Water Commission. This member of the Water Commission and the C.S.T.R. have already worked out plans in respect of the repeated re-use of water. Why have those plans not yet been implemented? That is one of the urgent steps which should be taken within the next five or six months if one really wants to avert a major disaster. And disaster is the word for it. I am not the one who used the word “disaster”. The possibility of a disaster was mentioned by the Minister of Health when he introduced the Rand Water Board Bill here in 1964 and said, “If there should ever be any lengthy interruption in that water supply from the Vaal Dam, it could lead to a disaster”.

As far as short-term plans are concerned, there is therefore little that he can do. I do hope, though, that there is more that can be done than I have mentioned. I therefore hope that an interim report will soon be called for, so that active steps may be taken, steps for which it is almost too late already. As far as long-term plans are concerned, there are many other matters to which the hon. the Minister should start giving consideration now, and to which I hope the commission has already started giving consideration. We know how tremendous the expansion in the Vaal Triangle is going to be. In spite of the development of border industries and in spite of the limitation on industries in that area, a much larger quantity of water is going to be consumed. The development will continue, and there are matters which he should start considering at this stage already, for example, the use of water from other catchment areas, the building of further dams in the Vaal River, the building of a dam at Schoemansdrif and the use of other water for the purpose of supplying power. That is being done at Camden and can also be done in other parts of the Eastern Transvaal. All these factors will have an effect on the problems of the Vaal Triangle in the next 20 or 25 years. If a disaster should occur, this hon. Minister and his Government will have to bear the blame.

Mr. Chairman, when I listen to the hon. member for Orange Grove and I hear what he is pleading for in respect of this Commission, then it seems to me that he never acquainted himself with the terms of reference of this Commission. If he were to look at it he would realize that the terms of reference of this Commission are much wider than all the representations he has made here The terms of reference are very wide. They affect quite a few Departments. The hon. member referred to the position in regard to the Vaal River. He delivered a speech here in connection with the practical implementation of plans, the shortage of water in the Vaal River and other provision which has to be made. The Vote of the Minister of Water Affairs will come up for discussion during this week. That is when he should make those specific representations.

Whose Commission is it?

“All aspects of water …” That is one of the terms of reference of the Commission.

Precisely. I am not finding fault with that. It is very generally stated. This Water Commission was appointed by the late Dr. Verwoerd, the then Prime Minister. It was a Prime Minister’s Commission which was appointed. In the announcement which he made he said that as far as the administrative side of this Commission was concerned it fell under the Minister of Planning. Nevertheless the question of how much water is in the Vaal River, the alternative arrangements and the building of dams falls under the Minister of Water Affairs. Those are the terms of reference of the Commission which he must have a look at. Those terms of reference do not only affect the Department of Water Affairs. They affect the Geological Survey Section, which has to do with subterranean water. They affect the C.S.I.R., which has to do with the reclamation of water. They affect the Natural Resources Development Council, which has to do with the broader planning of areas and the attendant development. They have to do with the Department of Economic Affairs in so far as they have to do with the utilization of water for economic development They have to do with Escom as far as the utilization of water for the provision of power and the saving of water is concerned. They have to do with the investigations of the Atom Energy Board in so far as that has to do with the possible alternative use of atom power instead of water for the supply of electrical power. We are dealing here with aspects of water conservation and water utilization which affect agriculture and practically every Department. They affect urban consumption. They affect the Rand Water Board. Because they affect all these things, the representation is as broad as possible in order to cover the broad aspects of water utilization and water conservation. It is precisely because they affect so many Departments and because this Department is a co-ordinating one that the terms of reference of the commission have to do with the Department of Planning. However, it is not concerned with the implementation thereof, as the hon. member has just said. He will have his chance to raise that problem.

The hon. member said the Water Commission was announced, and that it was only much later that it was put into operation. The Commission was announced, but it has first to be ascertained whether the members of that Commission were available. Their appointment must be confirmed by the State President. One is dealing here with the preparation of terms of reference. The people who have been appointed to the commission are busy and prominent people in the country. They met for the first time on the 8th and 9th of August. They laid down very broad terms of reference for their members. I have the terms of reference here. I could read them out, but they take up pages and pages. They are worked out in fine detail. The terms of reference which are specific are worked out to the smallest detail here, if hon. members are interested in them. That is their work and they will make reports. Hon. members cannot do the work of that Commission. It is their task to do so. It is their task to institute an investigation, and they will do so. One of their short-term plans is in connection with the very problem of the water in the Vaal River. That is why they are meeting again on the 12th and on the 14th of this month. It will be their second meeting to give attention to this very aspect of the Vaal River and to bring out an interim report on the matter. That is not unreasonable. Here we have a major Commission with important terms of reference, and they already expect to discuss certain aspects of the water in the Vaal River. They have already arranged for interviews with important bodies for that date.

The hon. member has asked why certain parties and bodies from Johannesburg are not represented on the Comminssion. There is a representative of the Rand Water Board on the Commission. Where one has a commission with such wide terms of reference, it is impossible to give everyone representation on it. But as far as the municipalities are concerned, there is a certain Mr. Malan on the commission who is chairman of the Municipal Association of South Africa. The municipal associations are therefore being represented.

Is he the Town Engineer of Bellville?

Yes. He is chairman of the Municipal Engineers’ Association. What is wrong with that? [Interjections.] I do not agree. Sometimes there are good Malans as well. There are very capable people who can lay claim to getting on the Commission. I could mention them to this House. There are very capable people who represent certain bodies, but they have been asked to prepare basic information and evidence. If someone wants to make a contribution it is not absolutely necessary for him to serve on the Commission. He can give evidence. These people have already been asked to do so. Certain prominent people who have a great deal to do with water problems and who have knowledge of that matter, have already been asked to give evidence before this Commission. We therefore have a commission with very wide and searching terms of reference. They have shown that they are giving attention to the basic problems. They have two priorities. The one is the Vaal River and the other is more water for the Western Cape.

The hon. member for Sunnyside referred to the development atlas. The first instalments of that publication will appear within three weeks. They have already been prepared and they are with the Government Printer. The hon. member asked that use should be made of universities. I can give him the assurance that as far as it is possible, use is being made of universities in regard to surveys which have to be made. The University of Port Elizabeth is making surveys in Port Elizabeth, Uitenhage and in the Gamtoos Valley. Rhodes University is making surveys in the interior. The University of Stellenbosch is making socioeconomic surveys of the Orange River area. The University of Natal on the other hand is working on the classification of development regions. The University of the Orange Free State is making surveys at Jagersfontein and along the upper reaches of the Orange. The University of Potchefstroom is active in the Northern Cape. Each one of these universities is concerned in the surveys which are being made.

The hon. member for Von Brandis referred to certain problems in regard to the occupation right of Chinese. Other speakers also mentioned that topic. The position is that there are approximately 7,100 Chinese for whom accommodation must be provided. The majority of them are in the Johannesburg complex. In Pretoria provision has been made for them in a group area. Provision has been made in the region of Vereeniging and Vanderbijlpark. There are not many of them there. In Uitenhage and Port Elizabeth provision has also been made. They have indicated that they are prepared to co-operate in the case of certain group areas. Certain areas have already been investigated, particularly on the Rand. The latest investigation was made in the municipal area of Johannesburg. However, it appeared that there were certain problems because the City Council of Johannesburg is planning an expansion of the central urban area in that particular area. The land has already become expensive and they feel that they need it for the future expansion of Johannesburg. The hon. member for Von Brandis referred to certain discussions in regard to a possible locality. In the light of representations that locality, as far as Johannesburg is concerned, appeared to be unpractical. It was then decided to give further attention to another area. I hope that that area will shortly be advertised as the one which will be investigated.

May I put a question? May I ask whether a Chinese who carries a White identity card can live in a White area?

If a man has a White identity card, my Department accepts him as a White in all respects.

The hon. member for Bezuidenhout also referred to the position of Indians. It is correct that the representatives of the Indian Council had an interview with the hon. the Minister of Indian Affairs and the hon. the Minister of Community Development, as well as with representatives from my Department, in regard to a further Indian suburb in Johannesburg. They are not entirely happy with Lenasia. They want an alternative area there and they also suggested certain areas. The Minister of Indian Affairs gave the undertaking that he would have an investigation instituted into that matter. The procedure is that if it appears that it is an area which can be investigated for that purpose and that it does not stand in the way of certain other developments, then it is advertised and there is opportunity for making representations in regard to that area. But attention will be given to the entire question of their representations. The Minister of Indian Affairs discussed the matter with me this morning and the hon. member can be sure that, as far as those representations are concerned, attention will be given to them, but I cannot at this stage say what will happen.

The hon. member for Simonstown referred to certain areas which are unproclaimed. The fact of the matter is that almost 1,000 areas have already been proclaimed and that there are still areas which have to be proclaimed. In the nature of the case it is impossible to proclaim all of them simultaneously, particularly because Community Development must also co-operate, after it has been proclaimed, to bring about the resettlement of those people. That area has already been investigated, as the hon. member said, but the standpoint of the Department has always been that one must not regard Simonstown or Kalk Bay as small entities. They form part of a specific region in the Peninsula. The same applies to Noordhoek or any other part there. The standpoint of the Department has always been that it wants to consider the region as a whole. It is also correct that, as far as Noordhoek was concerned, the Divisional Council wanted to undertake certain developments there. Noordhoek was thereupon re-advertised for either Whites or Coloureds, and since it has been alternatively advertised in this way, I think it would be foolish of the Divisional Council, in case it should later be proclaimed White, to continue developing it as a Coloured area. It was therefore wise of them to prefer to wait. Perhaps it has caused delay, but with a view to the fact that one is dealing here with an entire area in the Peninsula which one wants to view as a whole and where one also wants to demarcate beaches with a view to the future so that one does not have to undertake reproclamation of portions, I think that was the right thing to do. These investigations have already been completed. They were delayed as a result of certain representations which were made by the Department of Mines, and certain other technical problems. But I can assure the hon. member that the proposals—I do not know what they were—made by the Group Areas Board which is a statutory body will, within a few weeks, be submitted to me for consideration as to what is to be done about that entire complex. It is a difficult complex and I should like to give my personal attention to the matter, but the hon. member can be assured that it will be proclaimed as soon as possible.

Are you prepared to accept the principle of a home area within a group area?

I do not understand the hon. member very well. Does he mean that if one has a White group area one must accept a Coloured group area within that White area? I cannot bind myself categorically in regard to that matter. There are places where that is the case. One avoids it as far as possible, because if one has a group area within a group area, it means that the one colour group is always surrounded by another, and that one always has intermingling and problems on the perimeter. It is undesirable therefore, but you must not conclude that it cannot happen there. Because I do not as yet have the proposals, I cannot give an indication. I cannot state categorically whether or not it is a desirable state of affairs. All that the hon. member can do is wait.

Reference was made here to Isipingo. It is correct that it was designated as an Indian beach. The hon. member was dissatisfied because he said there had not been evidence or strong representations for the beach area to be proclaimed for Indians. But a considerable amount of investigation has already been instituted into that area. I can tell the hon. member that there has up to now never been any preponderance of evidence that certain parts of the Natal coast should be designated for the Indians. It is unfortunately the case that the Whites want to find a place for the Indians but not a place near them. They begrudge them a place in Natal. That was the problem. As far as Isipingo is concerned, one must view the matter as a whole. There is that large area of Chatsworth, where there are Indians and one must see them against that possible hinterland. Somewhere beach facilities must be created for them. Supplementary to the evidence which was given and to which the hon. member has referred: as far as the whole was concerned, there was no option. Somewhere a beach had to be spared for them and after very mature consideration it was decided that Isipingo was the right place for that purpose.

The hon. member for Gordonia has asked, as far as economic surveys are concerned, whether there cannot be further subsidizing. The fact of the matter is that, with its limited funds the N.R.D.C. has in the past assisted with the surveys of certain areas. The idea of considering a region as a whole is now taking root. Since we are using mainly the universities for that purpose, there are accompanying costs. The students do not travel for nothing. We are trying to help as far as it lies in our power. But because there are so many representations and because our universities are so eager to render assistance, we cannot therefore at this stage subsidize to a greater extent with our limited funds, but we are trying to help where we can. The hon. member also referred to the representatives of the regional associations on the Resources and Planning Advisory Council. This Council is already very large. There are almost 50 members, because many Departments are represented by their Secretaries, and other semi-State bodies are also represented on it. A very small number of them are from the private sector. These people take a very active interest in the development of the country and their regions, and no matter how much we should like to do so, it is impossible for us to give them representation as well because it is already such a bulky body. But as far as the entire country is concerned, we are therefore trying to give as wide a representation as possible.

The hon. member for Vasco referred to the Peninsula and the planning here. There are certain regions which we are already giving attention to as a whole. For years already one of the subsidiary committees has been giving attention to the Pretoria-Witwatersrand-Vereeniging area, and one was recently appointed for the Uitenhage-Port Elizabeth complex. I think we are entirely justified here, as far as the greater Peninsula, including the area of Stellenbosch and Paarl right up to the boundary of Malmesbury, is concerned in considering the matter more as a whole. In this connection there is a joint town planning committee on which the divisional councils and the city councils serve, but I think it is high time we considered the matter more as a whole in order to take certain fundamental decisions. I can tell the hon. member that we held discussions last week already with this joint town planning committee, which has done very important work in connection with town planning in the Peninsula, with a view to establishing such a body, i.e. a smaller group which may perhaps, together with Government Departments, be able to determine the development policy in general and give advice accordingly.

I also want to refer to one last aspect. Two speakers referred to capital city planning as far as Pretoria is concerned. I can only say that during June of this year the Prime Minister asked for discussions in regard to capital city planning. He subsequently invited the Ministers of Community Development and Posts, the Administrator, the Mayor, and the Chairman of the Peri-Urban Health Board. The idea was that as far as Pretoria is concerned, it is not only a city, it is the capital of a province and it is also the administrative capital of South Africa. That is why the State also has an interest in the development of Pretoria. When one considers the development of Pretoria in recent years one notes that during the six years between 1954 and 1960 the population of Pretoria increased by 30 per cent as against that of Central Johannesburg which was only 20 per cent. Pretoria is therefore growing very rapidly and it still has very great expansion possibilities. The desirability was expressed by the Administrator and the Mayor. They felt that there should be an occasion on which all these bodies could work together because the State itself has a lot of land there and many development schemes in so far as its own requirements are concerned. That is why it was felt that there should be a common platform where those bodies could hold discussions and then act in an advisory capacity. Each one of these bodies have already submitted its proposals in regard to how it views that body and what its function must be and how it should act. Something has crystallized out of all that. It is already being circulated amongst the interested parties and bodies, and as soon as Parliament adjourns there will be further discussions in Pretoria with the Administrator and the relevant Ministers in order to ascertain to what extent this matter can be taken further.

The hon. member for Berea referred again to scientific research, particularly medical research. I should like to point out to him that, as far as medical research is concerned, the C.S.I.R. does not have a body of its own to institute investigations. On the contrary, it has made use of the existing bodies, such as the Medical Research Institute and 25 other research units which are in existence, and the C.S.I.R., from its funds, merely assist those bodies, but it has no research institute of its own. That is why, as far as bilharzia, about which the hon. member made representations, is concerned, the fact of the matter is that basically the research is being done by the Department of Health, but they did receive certain assistance from the C.S.I.R. precisely because the problem of bilharzia is such a major problem and covers so many facets.

Before the Minister sits down, may I remind him that I asked him certain questions under G? He seems unwittingly not to have answered those questions.

The hon. member for Von Brandis has asked what the position is as far as the funds of the C.S.I.R. are concerned. There is for example the R19.000,000 which is being made available in the Estimates. As far as the construction costs were concerned, they were a little more than R500,000. In addition there are the basic grants plus the grants to the universities. As far as the universities are concerned, I have indicated that it is R1,180,000. That is the grant to the universities. There the C.S.I.R. is only an agent as far as that is concerned. The other R6,800.000 which was granted to the C.S.I.R., was for its own research. They have quite a number of institutes. There is the water research and transport research, etc., which it is undertaking. It has R6,800,000 available for its own purposes. Then there was certain research projects as far as Government Departments were concerned. Of that R45.000 was given to the Department of Mines for asbestos research. And to Community Development a certain amount was given, in regard to housing, for research into pre-constructed houses, and that amount was R48.000.

Then there is the matter of health as far as hospitals are concerned. That has been done in the interest of the provincial administrations in order to see whether they cannot recommend certain improvements as far as the construction of hospitals is concerned. Trade and Industry has asked that research be done in regard to timber houses. That is R3,700. Then, as far as Justice is concerned, there was research for emergency planning, R140,000; and for Police there was R11,000. For Forestry, for a paper pulp project, there was R15,000: and for Education. Arts and Science. in regard to the ageing of paper in order to use paper in their archives which lasts long, there was R9,000. Mines, for pneumoconiosis, received R280,000; and the largest item was Defence, which was something over R10,000,000.

The hon. the Minister, in replying to the hon. member for Von Brandis, has given some of the details of these expenses, but you will realize the difficulty we are in. Sir, when you get items which we are asked to pass, such as Item 1 (g) and 2 (b) which are for very large sums. I am sorry, it is Item 1 (a) (iii), for R5,800,000, and Item 2 (b) R9,000,000, and it is simply called Running Expenses. The R9,000,000 is for a research project for Government Departments. I think I must agree with the hon. member for Von Brandis that we require a statement which will give us some indication of where this money is being spent and for what purpose. Simply to ask the House to vote globular sums of R9.000.000 and R5,000,000 for running expenses is quite unreasonable.

Then there are a few questions I want to put to the Minister The first is in terms of the accounting for the planning in connection with Richard’s Bay and the planning for the Rietvlei proposed harbour at the Cape. The point I want to put to the Minister is this. In respect of the planning which is being done by his Department or under the aegis of his Department, in regard to Richard’s Bay and Rietvlei, are the expenses chargeable under these heads that we have in front of us, and are the costs of the planning to be defrayed from these figures we are being asked to vote now. or are they to be defrayed from some other source, whatever that might be? If the plans are being carried out under the aegis of the Minister of Planning, I think we are entitled to ask whether the costs of the planning are being defrayed from his Vote, and if so, to what extent.

The next point I want to deal with briefly, because I want to lead up to something else, is this question of the commission which was appointed by the late Prime Minister to deal with water affairs. The Minister brushed aside the hon. member for Orange Grove in the representations he made. Somebody mentioned television. We may get television before we get a report from that commission on water affairs. Here is the difficulty we are in in that regard. As I understood the Minister, he said that the expenses of that commission would be defrayed from his Vote.

That is so.

Well, if that is so, it is quite clear that in dealing with the affairs of that commission we have to deal with it under this Vote. If we attempt to deal with it under the Vote of the Minister of Water Affairs, he will shrug his shoulders and say it has nothing to do with him because he does not even pay the expenses of that commission. It is a policy-making commission It is, in fact, one of the most fundamental commissions in terms of importance that we have in South Africa. The commission, I believe, met for the first time in June this year. I do not understand the Minister’s apparent lack of enthusiasm or interest in the commission. In the light of what is taking place in the country, and particularly in the Vaal area, with the whole of the Johannesburg complex virtually depending on that water supply, as well as farmers and others, it seems to me that extraordinary steps would have been taken to get that commission to put in an interim report to deal with that matter, let alone anything else. But some six months after its appointment this commission had its first meeting, and I believe it has had one or two meetings since then. There seems to be no hurry about it. The Minister shows no sense or urgency whatever in regard to it. That is the point we want to make, that here is something for the Minister to get down to and first to inculcate into himself that it is an urgent matter and then to inculcate it into the members of the commission.

I said I was leading up to something else, and I now want to come to the South Coast of Natal, where certain areas are being investigated now with a view to the proclamation of group areas. They have not been proclaimed. One of the issues down there is the question of water. We are completely at sea. The Prime Minister appointed this commission with the widest possible terms of reference. The Minister of Water Affairs is dealing with the whole complete set of waterworks and the development of waterworks. As a member of the Select Committee I do not think I am giving away any trade secrets if I say I have had about 24 reports which are lying on my table at the moment, coming from the Minister of Water Affairs. In addition to that, we have the Minister of Forestry who has appointed a commission to go into certain scientific aspects, a commission of scientists and not of laymen, to study certain aspects of the conservation of water and the protection of our water resources. It is clear that we have at least three authorities here, but we have no water We have money being voted under the Votes of three Ministers. We are urging them on and we are trying to get something done, but apparently there is no water. If the Minister of Planning does not get a sense of urgency and inculcate it into his colleagues, I do not know to whom to appeal. I said I wanted to deal with the South Coast of Natal, and water there is one of the main issues.

I cannot hold the Minister responsible for the promises made by a predecessor of his, but his predecessor promised the hon. member for Umlazi and myself that we would be consulted before certain proclamations were issued on the South Coast, because we wanted the planning to take place right from Durban down to the Cape border. The then Minister agreed with us and said that in respect of this long, narrow strip which is to-day becoming almost completely urbanized for over 130 miles, that required the planning which we all visualized as an over-all picture of the complete development of the whole area, including the railway, which is now going to Richard’s Bay and which falls under the Minister of Planning, and the National Transport Commission with its national roads, and the water supplies and the areas for industry which are going to come there whether we like it or not. There is the development of the big Bantu towns which will have to be planned there and in respect of which it has already been suggested that two be established in the White areas. All of that has to be planned, but instead of that I find that about four or five meetings have been held with a view to getting the views of certain local groups of people with a view to the proclamation of certain of those areas as group areas for Indians.

This is piecemeal planning and it does not serve our purpose. That is not the way to look at it and I hope the Minister will not look at it like that. The damage has already been done to a great extent in the northern area up towards Amanzimtoti. Let me say in passing that the proclamation of Amanzimtoti as a White area received the approval of the hon. member for Umlazi and myself; we are not worried about that, but that there should be piecemeal proclamation of group areas taking place further down the coast is completely and utterly wrong. It will stultify the whole of the great plan for the development as a section of South Africa which we must visualize for the whole of that 130 miles to the south. I hope the Minister will assure us to-day that he is not going on with this piecemeal planning and the proclamation of group areas, but that the planning will be done to include the national road and the railway. [Time limit ]

The hon. member referred to the planning for the South Coast. He quoted it last year too and I then quoted from certain correspondence which I had had here. I do not think the hon. member was here when I replied to that and pointed out that it had been agreed that as far as the planning there was concerned we would wait until the over-all planning of that area had been completed. But the fact of the matter is that as far as the over-all planning is concerned, it is basically being done by the planning committee of the Natal Administration, and there have been major delays. In the meantime great pressure for group areas to be proclaimed is being brought to bear. That pressure for group areas to be proclaimed there is coming from the hon. member’s own constituency. When I replied last year I indicated that we wanted their cooperation as far as the over-all planning was concerned, but that the pressure as far as these areas were concerned was so great that we were having to proceed with it, and that as far as South Coast was concerned, certain areas had already been proclaimed. I was referring to Amanzimtoti.

In addition there is also Kingsborough, Lower Illovo, Port Shepstone and a portion of Marburg. But there are also certain areas on the South Coast which have now been advertised for investigation. I am referring to Umzinto, Park Rynie, Umkomaas, Scottsburgh, Margate, Uvongo and the unproclaimed portion of Marburg. They have been advertised and that investigation as far as group areas is concerned is proceeding. We cannot hold it back until such time as the over-all planning has been completed. The pressure is coming from these areas. Buyers come and see us and say that they want to know what is going on and that they cannot wait any longer. That is precisely the reason why these areas are now being advertised for investigation and why the Group Areas Board is proceeding to deal with it.

But your predecessor promised to bring me into the picture. It is in Hansard here.

I shall also quote from Hansard where I said that you had been invited to certain meetings which you did not attend, and that there was correspondence indicating that major delays had been caused as a result. On those grounds I subsequently said that there had been meetings to which you had been invited but at which you had not been present, and that was why we were proceeding with the matter.

That is not so. I challenge you.

I shall show you the correspondence. I quoted it in Hansard last year.

It was only when I was ill two years ago. That is the only one. But the promise has been ignored.

As far as that matter is concerned, there is correspondence which was not replied to for months and months. As far as the planning at Richard’s Bay is concerned, our function is that of co-ordinating and there are certain expenses, but they are being borne internally and the relevant Department which co-operates in this respect bears its own costs and does its own planning itself. We are not responsible for that. Our responsibility is only to establish that general plan within which each one proceeds with its own work. The Railways and Harbours Administration does its own planning within the general framework.

Reference was also made here to the costs of the Water Commission. Provision has been made for the costs of the Water Commission. It has not been done in these Estimates, but we think that we will be able to carry the costs out of sayings. We think that the costs next year will be in the region of R18,000. The hon. member also said there was no evidence of haste, because we had not made it known what the plan included, but the Vote of the hon. Minister of Water Affairs will come under discussion shortly and he will then be able to indicate what his plans are. He does have certain plans. There are certain alternative sources which his Department has already investigated and which he is considering, but it is for him to make the announcement. Although I know what it is, it is not my duty to announce what his plans in regard to the Vaal River are. It is quite likely that his Vote will still come up for discussion during this week.

Why are you then asking for a report from the commission?

The hon. member must not be foolish now. Why cannot an interim report be submitted? The Department of Water Affairs is proceeding with its plans, but there is no reason why it should not also take advice from this commission. Surely there is nothing wrong with that? Reference was also made here to the report of the Department. I can only say that I had hoped that the report would be available. It is already with the Government Printer. The plans have been approved and the first report of this Department will be ready within a few weeks. I am sorry that it is not already available.

Revenue Vote put and agreed to.

Loan Vote H,—Planning, R1,300,000, put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote 46,—“Mines, R12,236,000”, and Loan Vote R,—“Mines, R4,500,000”.

There are several matters that I want to deal with under this Vote. May I therefore have the privilege of the half hour? Sir, we have read, during the last couple of days, of the action that has been taken by the Zambian Government to restrict the number of Bantu labourers who come to our mines from Zambia. The numbers coming in from that territory are relatively small. About 6,000 come here annually and they are given an opportunity of renewing their contract after they have done 12 months’ service. Sir, that prompts one to ask, firstly, why these 6,000 people from Zambia are no longer allowed to come to us, and at the same time it gives one an opportunity of reviewing the Bantu labour force in the Republic. The total number of Bantu working in all mining projects is approximately 667,956. Of this number 444,448 are taken up by the gold mines. As you will see, Sir, that is a very large number of workers in one industry, but what perturbs me is that the Republic is only supplying 38 per cent of this very large number of almost half a million workers. In other words, 62 per cent of our Native labour force is coming from outside our borders. We hope that the trend that has started in Zambia will not continue and spread because it is quite obvious, when you look at these figures, that we have to import labour from outside our borders. Why is it that we in South Africa with our large population cannot find sufficient of our own Bantu to work in our mines; why has it become necessary for employers to spend virtually thousands and thousands of rand to bring migrant labourers from outside our borders? I do not know what amount is spent in bringing in labour from outside, but I feel sure that with better methods of recruitment, with better publicity, with a more effective way of showing what benefits are given to the Bantu labourer in South Africa, we could decrease the very large number of migrant labourers that we are getting in from outside. We in South Africa are only supplying 88,000 Bantu for the gold mining industry, and we are bringing in 355,000. That is a very high figure, bearing in mind the fact that we have so many Bantu in this country, who I feel could be employed in our mines.

Why is it being done?

I do not know whether it is because of the cost structure, whether it is because of the unsuitable nature of the work or whether the type of Bantu who is available is unsuitable for work in the mining industry. As you know, Sir, they have to pass certain standards: they have to have a certain weight and a certain height, and that is possibly one of the factors responsible for the importation of this large labour force. This is a very important matter and we should be able to solve this problem ourselves by getting down to it and showing the Bantu what benefits would accrue to him if he worked in our mines. Sir, I just want to quote a few figures from the annual report of the Government Mining Engineer. These figures are quite fantastic. The wage Bill for Bantu mineworkers amounted to R104,000,000 in one year; they received free food to the value of approximately R24,000,000 and free clothing to the value of R5,500,000. I am sure that the recruiting agencies have not explained these benefits to our Bantu. I bring these points to the notice of the hon. the Minister in the sincere hope that he will enthuse the authorities and the people who do the recruiting for our mines to do their level best to engage as many of our own people as possible for the mining industry. I think the time has come when we must face up to the danger of a reduction in the numbers of recruits for the mining industry from other territories. This is a matter which affects many of our mines. If we have to depend on our own local labour entirely, it may mean a rise in the cost structure of the mines, and if that takes place, then it surely means that we will have more marginal mines. I am hoping that this trend which has already started will be nipped in the bud so that we will be able to get sufficient labourers who will be able to work on our mines at a reasonable wage, who will be given free housing, which they are being given at the present time, and who will be given free food and who will be issued with free clothing which they are also getting at the present time. Sir, these are matters which must be brought to the notice of the recruiting agencies and emphasized by them.

Sir, we have to keep the marginal mines going: we cannot afford to have any increase in the labour costs of these mines. The importance of these mines is illustrated when you look at the annual report and see how much gold has been taken out of five marginal mines, which are mentioned in the report. Hon. members will have noticed, if they have read the report, that gold to the value of over R16f million has been taken out of these five marginal mines in one year. We in this country are faced with the fact to-day that we cannot hope, unfortunately, in spite of the efforts of our finance team overseas, to get an increase in the price of gold, that is to say, if the newspaper reports are correct. If the price of gold was increased, we in South Africa would be sitting very pretty but we are faced with what seems to be the inevitable, namely that the people who fix the price of gold have decided against it. With the increasing price of commodities and a pegged price for gold we are faced daily with the prospect that more and more mines will join those which are already operating on a margin of profitability. The Government will have to do something in this matter. We are going to see a steady rise in the costs of the mines, and bearing in mind how much the mines spend annually on South African products we cannot afford to allow any mine to stop its mining operations. Unfortunately we cannot close down a mine temporarily. Once a mine is closed we know that it costs millions to reopen it, so we have to go on subsidizing the marginal mines. The Minister may have to increase his subsidies so that those mines which are already marginal and those which are faced with the prospect of becoming marginal will be able to carry on. We have to consider not only our output of gold but we must bear in mind the necessity of keeping the White miner, in whatever field of mining he is employed, happy and secure in his job. The report tells us that it is in the older mines that we find that there is a feeling of insecurity amongst the White miners. The White miners employed in the old mines apparently feel insecure and it is in these old mines that we find that there is a shortage of White labour. Sir, I cannot correlate that with my own findings. I find that in many of the older mines, the miners are being encouraged to give up their employment and that many of them have been transferred. Robinson Deep, City Deep and Crown Mines have virtually encouraged miners to retire if they are near the retiring age or to accept transfer to other jobs. But even with the transfer of miners from marginal mines to productive mines, we still find that over-all there is a shortage of about 2,000 White labourers. Sir, looking at the Vote I find that there is one very disappointing item in page 269 of the Estimates. We find that in most cases provision is made for increased expenditure, except in the case of one item, which I regard as one of the most important and fundamental sources of labour, and that is the miners’ training school, in respect of which I see that there is a reduction of R20,000.

But that is paid by the mines, not by the Government.

Sir, I am talking about the Vote; I have the figures here in front of me and I find that there is a reduction of R20,000 in the amount given to the miners’ training school, and that is what perturbs me. Whether the amount needed is made up from other sources is besides the point, but I think I have every right to ask that the miners’ training school should be encouraged to turn out as many trained miners as possible. It is the miners’ training school that is going to turn out the sort of mineworkers who are going to fit into the future specialized mining operations.

Hon. members will know that the experiment which was started a couple of years ago was stopped because the White mineworkers felt insecure. As I see it, that was the main reason why this experiment was discontinued. The White mineworkers felt that their future security was being threatened. But if the miner is encouraged to undergo an intensive course of training in mining at the miners’ training school and the standard of his efficiency is raised, then his security is in no way threatened because he will always be head and shoulders above those who might otherwise take his place. I want to encourage the further development of the miners’ training school, and that is why I would like the Minister to see that an investigation takes place and that an effort is made to get as many people as possible into the miners’ training school. I want to suggest to the Minister that those miners who have not had an opportunity of going to this school and would like to go, irrespective of their age, should be given an opportunity of attending classes. I as a doctor and other professional men in this House look forward to the opportunities we are given to do post-graduate studies; we would be quite happy to go back to medical school, and I ask that the miner, who is such an important asset to our country, should be encouraged to take up a further course of study at the miners’ training school.

Sir, if we have to keep down the cost of our mines, then we have to effect sayings somewhere, and if it is true that we can save up to 50,000 man hours a day by revising the methods which are being used underground at the moment, then we must make sure that our miners are not only given a higher status but that they also have the proper know-how. We must be able to depend on them. To be a little more specific, it is quite clear to all of us that the way in which hours are being wasted by Bantu gangs waiting to go into places of work before they are made safe by the mining authorities, is quite ridiculous. With our present cost structure we cannot afford to lose those man hours. To overcome that difficulty we will have to have somebody who will be able to go into those places of work earlier— we used to have the early starters, as the hon. member for Krugersdorp knows—or otherwise we have to have somebody who will be able to take the gangs into those working places sooner than they are being taken in at the moment. The suggestion by the Viljoen Commission to the effect that the miner must first carry out a spell of exercises for 40 minutes is to my mind unrealistic. I cannot see how it is possible to get efficiency by persuading a miner to undertake 40 minutes of intensive, strenuous manual work. I know that it is qualified by the words “without undue strain on himself” but who measures that?

Do you want to start the whole war, the whole argument all over again?

No, I do not want to start the whole argument over again. I want more White miners to be employed, if possible, so that the individual White miner will not be subjected to that strain. That is my point. I do not want to give the White miner’s job to anybody else. What I want to see is that there will be more people wanting those jobs, and there is only one way in which that can be achieved and that is by giving the miners higher salaries.

Do you want the mines to give them better salaries?

I would like to see the miners receive monthly pay packets; I want them to get better salaries …

So far we agree with you.

If people disagree with me, well and good; let them disagree. But that is what I want. Sir, this is not something new. I want the new members in this House to know that we on this side have been pleading for this sort of thing for many years. We must take the overall picture and see where we can save if we are going to give more White miners better wages. We must first save. How can we save? Can we save when the Minister of Railways increases his tariffs; can the mining industry save when food prices are going up?

Now you are spoiling everything.

Sir, there are the problems facing the hon. the Minister. I wish I knew what the solution was. What I would like to see is that these matters are dealt with without interference from people who do not know what is going on. I want to see these matters settled between the employers and the workers without undue outside interference. If necessary the hon. the Minister can be the referee in the matter, but let the parties directly concerned sort this thing out themselves. When an opportunity presents itself to settle these matters, there should not be interference by people who do not know the rudiments of the financial structure of the mines. Sir, I leave it at that for a moment, because there are one or two other matters that I want to deal with. I would like the White miner to realize that the days when he was regarded as a person who was not fit to do anything else except mining are gone; to-day he is an expert in his field; he is a trained miner and he must be recognized as such. Those days must be forgotten. The miner must be given his proper status and he must be treated in the same way as any other hard-working industrial worker. He must be treated even more generously because in his particular occupation he is faced with hazards which workers in other industries do not have to face. The miner has to contend with pneumoconiosis; he has to contend with a high accident rate underground; he has to work under unpleasant conditions but he is virtually the backbone of our economy in South Africa. Sir, the amount of taxation that the Government collects from the mines is quite staggering. Our gold mines are producing 27,500,000 ounces of gold valued at, if my arithmetic is right, R686,000,000 or approximately R700.000,000.

Your figures are wrong.

The gold mining industry pays the Government R117,000,000 in tax. Sir. if you want to know how to resolve some of the difficulties which have arisen in the gold mining industry, then my reply is, that, what is called for, is perhaps a little revision of the taxation structure so that the gold miner can get a little more out of it. That would be one way out of our present dilemma. [Interjection.]

Order! The hon. member for Stilfontein will have an opportunity to address the Committee later on.

I know that the hon. member for Stilfontein feels as many of us do; we look with greedy eyes at the shareholders of the various mining companies and we wish that we could have a little bite at that cherry, but we must remember that the spoils are divided; the Government takes its cut; the shareholders take their cut and the Chamber takes its cut. They are all doing very well out of it, except the miner. The miner is the only person who is not doing so very well out of it, and he is the man we have to start considering. I say that at some time or other we will have to reconsider the present tax structure as it applies to the gold mining industry.

In the few minutes left to me I want to deal with one or two other matters. Sir, I have said already that the mineworker is faced with hazards which do not occur in any other industry. I want to say a few words about accidents which are taking place on the mines. In going through the Report I find that the three most important types of accidents which are taking place are the following: firstly, accidents due to falls of ground; secondly, accidents which take place on trucks and tramways and, thirdly, accidents which take place through the handling of explosives. Sir, I do not want to anticipate legislation which is due to come before the House, but I think there is a bill which is being discussed at the moment in the Other Place in relation to the preparation of certain types of new explosives used underground. On page 105 the Report deals with the number of accidents involving explosives that have taken place. A total of 44 persons were killed and 277 injured through handling explosives.

Over what period?

This was over a period of one year. That is just handling explosives. Now a new type of explosive is going to be introduced underground. Legislation is being brought in now, and I ask the Minister to be particularly certain that at those mines where this new explosive is being used every single regulation that is in existence now relating to the handling and the use of explosives is observed, and that if they are not observed heavier penalties than are at present being imposed, should be imposed. [Time limit.]

Mr. Chairman, before I say something about the speech made by the hon. member who has just sat down, I should like to put a few questions to the hon. the Minister in connection with this Vote. If there is any time left, I should like to make a few observations about the hon. member’s speech. Years ago there was mention of a draft bill dealing with pensions for mineworkers who have worked for a certain number of years. Later we heard that negotiations on this subject were in progress. In the upper circles it became more and more quiet. At present the position is such—and I think every hon. member in this House who represents mineworkers will agree with me—that almost every mineworker is asking us what has become of the idea of pensions for mineworkers. We are under the impression—and I am still under that impression—that the matter was virtually taken out of the hands of the Minister because the mineworkers submitted by way of their trade unions that it was a matter that should be left to them and to the mining industry as such, and that they would have more hope of significant successes if it remained a matter for negotiation between the two interested parties. Pressure is continually exerted on hon. members of the House, however, and they are asked why any industry in South Africa, why virtually all workers in South Africa, have the privilege of enjoying a decent pension after a certain term of service, whereas there is nothing of the kind in the mining industry. Now I would be grateful if the Minister, if it is possible for him to do so and if he has the time, would tell us whether anything of that nature is still at foot. Can the Minister tell us what has become of the draft bill of years ago? Why was it not proceeded with? Are such negotiations still taking place, and if so, did the Chamber of Mines consult the Department of Mining in that regard? We would be grateful if the hon. the Minister would reply to those questions.

The hon. member who opened the debate to-night, sounded quite a new note for that side of the House. I am referring to his objection that too many Bantu were entering the Republic from outside to work in the mining industry. I hope he will not be taken to task in his caucus for adopting that attitude. I hope his Party will support him in that matter and not rap him over the knuckles. I shall welcome the day the Opposition adopts the attitude that the Bantu of the Republic of South Africa should have the first claim and that the Chamber of Mines should begin to consider putting a stop to the employment of Bantu who enter the Republic from outside. I think we shall make great progress. I do not want to anticipate the Minister’s reply, but I think there have already been moves in that direction on the part of the authorities. But it would strengthen the hand of the Government if they are not thwarted for the umpteenth time in that respect as well. Actually I still fail to understand why the hon. member is adopting such a truly pro-South African attitude to-night. Because when it concerns other industries, he does not adopt that attitude. Then they do not adopt that attitude.

Like when, for example? Give me just one example.

I want to point out to the hon. member that the question of the influx of Bantu to the large industrial areas is one of the cardinal questions on which we of course differ continually with that side of the House.

What are you going to do about it?

I can answer one person at a time, but not two. What are we going to do about it? If you had listened to what I said, you would have heard that I said I did not want to anticipate the Minister’s reply. Does the hon. member not want a reply on a high level, from Government quarters? The hon. members are getting very clever now, because they know I am now coming to other things. I am still coming to the White worker. The hon. member asked to-night why the Government was making no propaganda for the wonderful benefits available to the White mineworkers in the mines, because the mine-schools would then fill up. We now, come to the real reason. Those wonderful benefits mentioned by the hon. member are very limited. Do you know that the potential mineworker, the man who would otherwise have worked in the mines, maintains that he would not receive the same benefits there as on the Railways? Because if he works for the Railways, he receives quite a substantial pension after a certain number of years.

I know that.

Exactly. Why does not the hon. member discuss that with his mine-owners? All this discussion, all this fine talk, all these questions that are asked, all the pleas about the fact that the mine-schools are not full, merit only one reply. The young men of the country say, “Oh no, we understand that the mining industry is so rich and is making such a great deal of money.” The mining industry is making a great deal of money and it receives concessions from this Government. It receives wonderful concessions that the agricultural industry and the other secondary industries in South Africa do not receive. But the mining industry is the only industry that not only discharges its workers, after many years, with a meagre, worthless little pension, but even if those people suffer from occupational diseases, they are not even compensated for that. Then one virtually has to wage war to get something for that poor mineworker, the pneumoconiosis sufferer.

I told you that.

Then why did the hon. member begin his speech by referring to the wonderful benefits? Why did he not mention the disadvantages? Why did he not draw a parallel between the man who joins the mines and the man who joins the Railways or the police? Why did he not do that? Why did the hon. member cover up the real causes?

You did not listen.

I listened very closely. But the hon. member should understand that his argument should at least have some sense in it. But there is no sense in his arguments if he speaks about the benefits while knowing that at present any man who works for a salary or a wage, who does not own a business, has to look ahead for the sake of his family. He must look ahead to the pension he will receive one day when he has completed his years of service.

You are quite right. I never discussed the White mineworker.

Every schoolchild in South Africa knows about those benefits that the hon. member wants us to mention. But the disadvantages are covered up, and the hon. member fails to mention them. The disadvantage is that the poor mineworker works for only a certain period and is then sucked dry, a man who is exhausted and who is dumped, and there is nothing left for him. The industry is the cause of that, the people who make those millions. They will not do for their workers what the Railways and other employers in South Africa do for their workers, namely to do something for their people after a number of years. That is the point. If that were done, there would be no need for the hon. member to come here and plead that the mine-schools should be filled. The mine-schools would then be bursting their seams. There would then be many people who would be eager to work in the mines. At present the position is such that if a man has virtually no other way of making a living, he makes a living by working in the mines. At first it is most attractive, of course. But what modern young man who has a sense of responsibility, who gets married, looks no further ahead than the first day? True, they do start with considerable wages and considerable benefits. But if they look somewhat further ahead, as you and I would do if we accepted a job, they baulk and say: “Let us first try any other industry before we enter the so-called wonderful service of the wonderful goose, that lays the wonderful golden egg.” I fear the golden egg is sometimes somewhat inflated and overrated. But it is forgotten that the goose’s egg sometimes contains a bit of poison, and that she also kills many other industries, and she is the only industry in South Africa that is continually striking at the root of national health, without giving serious attention to the matter. I regret that I am compelled by the speech of the hon. member to bring these things into the open to-night. But if we do not speak now of the injustice done by that industry towards its people, then the stones lying on the mine dumps will cry out. [Time limit.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not want to interfere in the argument between the hon. member for Krugersdorp and the hon. member for Rosettenville. I want to deal with a matter just touched on by the hon. member for Rosettenville, and that is the question of our marginal mines. In South Africa we have many complex problems with which we have to deal, but high in the order of importance must come the question of marginal gold ore. I use the term “marginal gold ore” specifically, and my reason for doing so I hope to explain a little later.

To appreciate the problem of our marginal gold ore it is important that we see the picture in its right perspective. Some people have some very strange ideas about mines, mining, mining companies, and shareholders, including the hon. member for Krugersdorp. As far as he is concerned he just sees money flowing into the pockets of the mine-owner and that is all. But, of course, this is not the picture at all.

For the past 14 years in this country, we have been fortunate in that there has been a steady increase in the annual gold production, with a record production last year of R744,000,000. This represents 73 per cent of the total gold production of the free world. And it is fortunate again that this, upward trend continued into 1966, and in the first quarter of this year, production rose to R258,000,000 or 4 per cent more than in the corresponding period last year. The hon. member for Rosettenville has told us of the profit we made from gold mining last year and the amount that the State received. But there are other factors. Gold mines spent some R275,000,000 on stores, and 94 per cent of these stores were of South African manufacture. These figures give a very clear indication of the importance of the industry to our general economy. They also give an indication of the fact, which is often lost sight of, that it is on the foundation of our gold mining industry that our secondary industries have been built, and continue to flourish. This is the bright side of the picture. But, unfortunately, there is also a dark side.

In 1949 the Witwatersrand produced 89 per cent of South Africa’s gold. Last year it was only 19.4 per cent. Since 1949 the average total working costs of all mines have doubled. In 1965, working costs were on an average R1 higher than in 1961. Last year as well working costs rose for the first time by 25 cents a ton compared to an average increase of 15 cents per ton over the period 1961 to 1964. In the past few years no fewer than 21 mines have been forced to close down, and the closing of other mines is imminent. If you look at the Mining Survey published in April, 1966, you will see that there are no fewer than eight mines on the Witwatersrand which are losing money every year. This is a factor we have to for More and more gold is being left unmined, forced to remain in Mother Earth, because of the fixed price of gold and an ever-increasing cost of mining it.

Now, what does all this mean in terms of our economic well-being? From what we know it seems that for the next four or five years we can expect gold production to increase, by approximately 12 per cent by 1970, but thereafter it is expected that a steady decline will take place. Unless of course, as has happened in the past, new gold fields are discovered, or some revolutionary means is found whereby production can be increased at no extra cost. But time is running out for us to change our base from mining to industrial production, particularly in so far as our exports are concerned. For if we compare the export figures for 1960 with those of 1964, we find some very interesting facts. Gold and uranium exports increased by R144,000,000. Other mining products increased by R42,000,000, agriculture by R150,000.000. But all other exports increased by only R16.000,000.

It is thus clear that gold is the driving force in our entire economy, but its steam in the engine of our progress is beginning to run somewhat dry. When we are faced with these facts it is obvious that certain objectives have to be achieved. The first is that new mines have got to be opened wherever and whenever we can find them. The second is that we have got to prolong the lives of our existing mines for as long as is possible. One must acknowledge that the Government, after a slow start, is today providing assistance to the marginal mines. A number of mines have received help, either by way of loans against working losses or capital expenditure, or by way of grants towards the costs of pumping water from neighbouring defunct mines. This year the amount provided for pumping water for example has been increased from R600,000 to R790,000. R4,500,000 is also being provided for loans to marginal mines.

Last year in the course of his speech the hon. the Minister of Mines gave us some details of such measures as reallocation of quotas, the extension of mining rights, the amalgamation of certain mines, joint crushing schemes, etc., which he said had been devised to keep the marginal mines in existence. They did and they helped to increase the production of gold. This year the Minister of Finance has announced an increase in the capital allowance for new mines from 6 per cent to 8 per cent, and he has also changed the formula. These steps no doubt are going to help in establishing new mines.

Now, in the same way, the mines themselves are also playing their part. It you look at the Report of the Government Mining Engineer and the Geological Survey you will find on page 97—and it is repeated in other sections of the Report—that “notable progress has been made on the various mines with a concentrated system of stoping, improved underground mechanization, steel props support, the centralized blasting system and blasting techniques in general”. Using these devices, we are told in other parts of the Report, that economies are being effected.

The mine worker can also play his part, as has been mentioned by the hon. member for Rosettenville. We hope that when the second report of the Viljoen Commission comes out, we will learn that an equitable formula has been found as between worker and employer, so that both are satisfied and that it is to their benefit, but most important of all, that it is to the benefit of South Africa.

I believe that we will soon be moving into a crisis period of a decline in gold production, and that further steps will have to be taken. Dr. De Kock, the previous Chairman of the Reserve Bank, high-lighted some of the problems in his address to the Economic Society in Cape Town in June this year. He said that he had misgivings concerning the country’s balance of payments position on a long-term basis, unless our gold production could be maintained. He also warned that any decline in gold production would make the task of maintaining some sort of equilibrium in the balance of payments position a formidable one. Here you see one of the major factors of this problem. namely the equilibrium between our imports and exports and our balance of payments position. It is the gold mines that can play a major part in keeping these two factors in equilibrium. But there are other factors that have to be considered. [Time limit.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Parktown did not really say anything we have not known for a long time. It has been apparent to us for years that the production costs of gold are rising whereas its price remains fixed. That is why we have the difficulty with marginal mines. Our Government has tried every year to have the gold price increased. They are not to blame for the fact that it could not be done. We are grateful that the Government has tried to the best of its ability to help the marginal mines. On behalf of my town, Springs, I want to thank the Government for having tried to help us keep the marginal mines going, because Springs is one of the towns that is hardest struck by the closing of gold mines at present.

To-night the hon. member for Rosettenville suddenly came to the fore as a champion of the mineworker. But if we analyse his speech, it is quite clear that his recipe for helping the mineworker is that the Government should do it. He did not suggest that the people who draw dividends from the mines should give up some of their dividends to those people who give their lives to fill the pockets of the shareholders with dividends. If he were frank, he would have said that the mines should pay out somewhat less dividends to the shareholders and give the balance to the mineworkers. But no, the dividends may not be touched, and the Government must find money to compensate the mineworkers. We now see that the old United Party is still the party that looks after the rich man and does not try to do anything for the poor man.

As a medical man I should like to bring a few matters to the attention of the hon. the Minister, matters which I feel should receive some attention. A post-mortem examination has to be performed in all cases on the lungs and heart of mineworkers who worked in dusty workings. The object is to see whether any damage was done by dust, and to what extent. Now it has come to my attention quite a few times that after examining samples of lungs, the institute found that the mineworker had in fact suffered from pneumoconiosis, but as usual they say that the cardio-respiratory function had been affected to an extent of less than 20 per cent. As a result of that the widow and the orphans are not entitled to a pension. I cannot quite understand how they can ascertain posthumously whether there was 19 or 21 per cent affection of the cardio-respiratory function. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister whether he cannot promulgate a regulation in terms of which all people who are found upon a post-mortem examination to have suffered from pneumoconiosis, may be regarded as pneumoconiosis-sufferers in a degree exceeding 20 per cent, so that the widows and orphans may be entitled to a pension. Previous legislation provided that a person should be regarded as a pneumoconiosis-sufferer from the earliest stage at which it could be determined that such a person did in fact suffer from pneumoconiosis. That was laid down in terms of the 1956 Act, and I should like the hon. the Minister to see to it that the mineworker and his family will be given that right again. Another group of mineworkers that I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister is the group that contracted pneumoconiosis in the early thirties while earning, say only R50 a month. In terms of the present system of compensation those people cannot receive such compensation because it is provided by legislation that a mineworker may not receive a pension in excess of his salary upon retirement. Therefore that group of mineworkers who contracted pneumoconiosis in the early thirties cannot claim the compensation of R85-R90 a month obtaining at present, although in my opinion they should in fact be entitled to it. We should place them in the same category as mineworkers suffering from pneumoconiosis in the third stage to-day, because they surely find it just as difficult to make ends meet. In addition they themselves have to bear the higher costs of medical treatment and of medicines, which they find very difficult with their smaller incomes. In this regard I should like to ask whether it is not possible that the pneumoconiosis fund or the employers may bear the costs of medicines and of medical treatment for pneumoconiosis-sufferers. In fact, it was provided in the 1961 legislation that the Minister may promulgate a regulation in terms of which the costs of medicines and of medical treatment could be recovered from either the fund or from the employee.

Then I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is not possible to bring about a better relationship between the house doctors of mineworkers and the medical doctors of the pneumoconiosis bureaux. The house doctors of mineworkers could then send their diagnoses to the doctors at the bureau, and vice versa. In that way the interests of the patient, for whom both of them are responsible, after all, may best be served. Then I should also like to associate myself with what the hon. member for Krugersdorp said with regard to pensions. I agree with him that a mineworker should not be allowed to work underground for longer than 25 years. After 25 years of underground service a mineworker should receive a decent pension. At that stage he is still relatively young and in good health and he may therefore still do surface work for many years in order to be an asset to the country. I therefore hope the hon. the Minister will re-open negotiations in this regard with the Mineworkers’ Union and with the Chamber of Mines, with the object of seeing whether such a pension fund cannot be established. If that can be done, it will elicit the gratitude and appreciation of all mineworkers and their families and it will make history in this country.

I am sure that my colleague the hon. member for Durban (Central) is in a position to answer the hon. member for Geduld much more effectively than I can and, consequently. I do not intend dealing with the points raised by him.

In considering marginal ores, there are various factors to be considered. At present the whole world is still concerned with the position of sterling and at the moment it is still being strongly supported throughout the world. But whether or not there is going to be devaluation by Britain is still an open question. We know that about six weeks ago it was a question of touch and go. Such devaluation will, of course, give temporary reprieve to marginal mines provided they are not closed down. At the same time it will make large additional quantities of payable ore available, ore which is not a payable proposition at the moment. Because of this possibility of devaluation, not only of sterling but also of other world currencies perhaps—depending upon (a) if Britain has to devalue and (b) the extent of such devaluation—it becomes absolutely essential that we should continue to mine all the gold ore that is possible. But there is still another factor. We have spent tens of millions of rand on industries in order to protect the Republic against possible sanctions. Thus we are spending money on an aircraft factory, on the construction of tanks for the storage of petrol and we are trying to increase the local content of our motor vehicles. If sanctions are ever contemplated against us, it will be the value of our gold production that will be one of the main reasons which will make those who want to impose sanctions, to have second thoughts. And if sanctions should ever come, and we all pray they will not, it will again be the fact of our gold production which will enable us to withstand sanctions and eventually defeat them. In the context of world events to-day gold is the major prop on which we stand or fall and we may reach a stage, where up to a point, profit or loss ceases to be the determining factor in the production of gold. This year we will be spending more than R250,000,000 on defence for the protection of the Republic. I believe that whatever sums we may spend to increase, or at least to maintain, our gold production is as vital to this country as any amount which we might spend on our defences. It is in this context that I should like to put a question to the Minister and at the same time make a suggestion to him. Firstly, is the marginal aid to marginal mines, as apart from marginal ore, being given quickly enough so that these mines are able to take full advantage of such aid and so that the amount of gold they can produce, which is the only thing we are concerned with, is the maximum possible? Or is this aid being given at such a time that a lot of gold is being lost? In other words, we want maximum production from the marginal mines by aid being given at the earliest possible opportunity so that the mine itself can make arrangements to take its gold out. One gets the impression that many marginal mines would have been producing more gold to-day if aid had been given more expeditiously. I think it is also fair to say that a number of mines which have closed down would not have closed down.

The other point I want to raise is this. We are giving aid to marginal mines. I believe, however, that we should give aid to marginal ore—in other words, marginal ore should be considered as being eligible for assistance irrespective of the general payability of a mine. We know that over the past years the grade of ore mined has had to be increased practically every year on account of the increased cost of production. We also know that over the last five years some R1,000,000,000 worth of gold has had to remain in the ground. We all know the reason for this. Even in the most prosperous of mines ore has to be left because it is not economic to mine it because of its grade. I want to put this to the hon. the Minister: What is the difference between assisting marginal mines to produce gold and assisting productive mines to produce more gold? I cannot see any difference. I am sure that the objective of the hon. the Minister is the same as mine, namely that we want more gold. That is what we require. I believe it is not beyond our capabilities to devise a formula whereby the State will be able to give assistance to even payable and profitable mines to enable them to mine also the lower grade of ore in those mines. Obviously, we do not want any benefits to accrue to the mine. We do not want the shareholder or the mine-owner, people not liked by the hon. member for Krugersdorp, to benefit. We want every benefit to go to the State by way of increased gold production. I believe, and I am sure the hon. the Minister will agree, that it will be far more economical, far less costly and far better, to assist with the mining of marginal ore while a mine is still in normal production than to pass that ore by and to give assistance only when that mine becomes a marginal mine. Here we have a very vexed problem. On this score we all agree. I believe our form of assistance should be as meaningful as possible. With the help the Government has given and is still going to render the maximum results must be produced. I believe also that it must be long-term assistance—it must not only be for to-day and not for to-morrow. One of the tragedies of our gold mining situation is that we have found so much gold on so many occasions that we were apt to forget that we have a dwindling gold industry. We may even find more gold. I do not know, although I sincerely hope we do. But only time will tell. But each time when the production of our gold has seemed as if it were going to drop something fortunate happened in that we found a new mine, a new area, or a new field or a new method of exploitation of our gold. But these things may not happen again, although we hope they will. It is, however, a long-term project. The cardinal point is that for the economic well-being and for the safety of South Africa gold is fundamental and every step we take and every aid or assistance we can give which will prolong or increase our gold production or at least maintain it, is in the best interest of this country.

I hope the hon. the Minister will give us his views on these two matters I have raised: The timing of his aid to marginal mines so that such aid will bring the maximum benefit over a long-term and aid for marginal ore in profitable and payable mines alongside the aid given to marginal mines.

We have no fault to find with the argument of the hon. member for Parktown. In fact, this side of the House has been urging the Government all these years to give assistance to the marginal mines, and the Government has in fact already given all the assistance it could. If the hon. member for Parktown can produce a formula, a formula that can guarantee that if the Government renders assistance to marginal mines, the Government, and the Government only, will benefit by it and not the mine owners or the shareholders, then we shall all welcome it. We shall all welcome it if a mine can be kept going longer under such circumstances. The hon. member also said to-night that many mines have been closed, mines that should never have been closed, because assistance was not rendered at the right time. But it is very easy to generalize and to say that there are mines that should have been kept going. But did the Government not render assistance at the right moment, when the mines applied for assistance? Did the Government not help to pump out subterranean water, one of the major problems of the mines? Did the Government not supply capital to new mines at a lower rate of interest? Was this not all assistance that was welcomed by the mines? But, as I have said, if we can find a formula in terms of which marginal mines can be kept going for longer, all of us will welcome it and all of us will be most grateful. But is it not in fact the shareholders, is it not in fact the mine owners who are not prepared to exploit that low-grade ore at this stage? Shareholders insist that only the best ore should be extracted. They are just like a bad farmer—they skim off only the cream, while the rest is left behind. As an hon. member said here, they are indulging in wasteful exploitation. But we agree with the hon. member for Parktown that if we can find that formula, we shall be very grateful. On one aspect, however, I differ with him. Those of us who represent mining constituencies owe the Government a great debt of gratitude for what it has done to keep the marginal mines going for so long. But I want to come back to the hon. member for Rosettenville. He said that he was greatly concerned about the decrease of R20,000 under sub-head (H), “Miners’ training schools”. The hon. member alleged that R20,000 less was being spent in this regard, and tried to create the impression that this decrease implied that fewer mineworkers would now be trained, and that the Government was to blame. But if the hon. member had just gone to the trouble of looking at page 276 of the Estimates, he would have seen that that money is used for maintenance and general expenditure at those training schools. Last year R540.000 was appropriated for this, compared with R510,000 this year. If one looks at the capital expenditure on equipment and purchase and erection of buildings, one notes that the appropriation in respect of this year is R10,000 more than that in respect of last year. Although the appropriation for the renovation of those buildings may therefore be less this year than last year, the Government is doing its duty as regards the purchase of equipment and the erection of buildings. The impression the hon. member for Rosettenville wanted to create is therefore not correct. In fact, I do not believe he has done his homework properly. The hon. member said he would like to see the mineworkers receive better training, and that more White persons should enter the mining industry. But what is amiss? As the hon. member for Krugersdorp, the hon. member for Geduld and even the hon. member for Rosettenville said, the fact of the matter is that unless the mine worker can earn an adequate monthly salary and an adequate pension, there is no question of any White person of sound mentality entering into this industry. It is therefore the duty and the responsibility of the mine owners, the employers, to see to it that working conditions are improved, and very soon, otherwise we shall find that the mines will become empty as regards White labour, because we shall no longer be able to find people who will be prepared to sacrifice their lives underground, as is expected of them.

Progress reported.