When the country first heard who was to be the new Minister of Information I think there was a general sense of alarm and little has been done to assuage that alarm since the hon. the Minister took over his new office. After all, the hon. the Minister was known in the past as the Minister of the population register, of bitter controversies on petty apartheid and as the man who interfered with the Springbok/All Black touring arrangements in the past. He is also known as the chief of the citadel of Christian National Education at Potchefstroom, in the narrow sense of the word. A lot of us thought that probably one of the main tasks of the new Minister would be for Mr. Jan de Klerk, Minister of Information, to explain to the country all the deeds perpetrated by Mr. Jan de Klerk as Minister of the Interior. He has done little explaining in that line and I trust that he will start giving some soon. Of course, very few people will ask why the previous Minister of Information was replaced. We know him as a brilliant Springbok in his day. He was a man who could always take a gap and, no wonder, when he left his Department he left no gap behind.

Certain things did alarm us when we heard of the appointment of the new Minister. There is one matter on which I should like to have a reply from him. I believe he was for a short time in charge of the Press Commission, and so was the Minister of External Affairs. Afterwards the Press Commission and its reports were handed over to the previous Minister of Information. I would like to know whether he is at the present moment still in charge of those reports and where they are, and I trust that he has no plans of implementing some of the very alarming—some people might say “stupid”—recommendations contained in the Press report. I should like to have an assurance from the hon. the Minister of Information that in his new post he will leave the Press of South Africa alone.

When I look at the Department of Information, as it is called, I find that there are certain unsatisfactory features that stand out and they appear again in this annual report. First of all I ask myself: Is this really a Department of Information for putting South Africa’s case to the rest of the world? I believe that this is not a Department of Information for that purpose. It is primarily a Department for bringing Government information and propaganda to the people of South Africa and largely to the non-Whites of South Africa. You see, Sir, of the staff of 390 in this Department, no fewer than 347 are in South Africa. A bare 53 are in other countries. I counted the number of offices abroad: there are not many, but the Department of Information has an office in Umtata; it has one in Pietersburg, it has one in Ondongua, it has one in Nelspruit, in Non-goma and in Sibasa. Surely the primary purpose of this Department is to convey information to the outside world and I am not quite sure whether an office at Nongoma or at Nelspruit or at Sibasa can really effectively do that. We know, of course, that the vast propaganda effort in attempting to convert the Bantu to apartheid is being conducted and controlled by the Department of Information. It issues the monthly periodical Bantu, and it issues seven or eight other Bantu newspapers and periodicals. It sends mobile units into the reserves and the townships. I take it that it is not bad when it comes to explaining such matters as why the Abyssinian system is to be rejected. The previous Minister of Information explained a couple of months ago in Another Place how his Department had told the Natives how Haille Selassie had salted away R800,000,000 in Europe; how 40,000 people died of malaria in Ethiopia—all no doubt true, but to what purpose from the point of view of creating a better picture of South Africa in the eyes of the outside world?

The Department of Information has shown signs of being a tourist agency—not a bad tourist agency either, I take it. People have been brought from abroad to see South Africa for themselves. I think basically that is a good idea although I have my reservations about some of the people invited. I am not so sure whether it was necessary for the Department to conduct tours of Bantu leaders in South Africa. That task should perhaps have been left to the Department of Bantu Administration.

There is another matter that I have raised on this particular Vote and that is the losses on the periodical South African Panorama. If the Minister will look at the evidence given before the Select Committee on Public Accounts on so many occasions he will find that the Auditor-General too has expressed his alarm and his reservations about the huge losses on that paper and as to whether it is actually as valuable as suggested by the hon. the Minister or his predecessor. Eight hundred thousand copies are printed per annum and the latest loss is R140,000 a year. Is it really worth it? And is it really worth it, taking into account the fact that such a large number of copies of Panorama are distributed in South Africa for distribution locally and not enough in oversea countries?

Who prints it?

Perhaps the hon. the Minister can tell us who prints it. We knew who the printers were in the past. I wonder whether a new contract has been called for. I do not see the hon. the Prime Minister here; perhaps he might give us that information.

Then there is one other little point. I do not know whether it gives cause for alarm or amusement, but in going through the report of the Auditor-General, I find that the Department of Information also has a secret service on which R30 was expended in this one particular year. I would have been quite satisfied to have left a secret service of that dimension in the hands of the previous Minister of Information. I can think of nobody who would be less likely to misuse secret service powers than the previous Minister of Information. Indeed I would have been quite prepared to have called him our first special investigator, Mr. 000. But I am concerned when I see that there is a possibility of these little secret services being established in the Department of Information of which the present Minister is the head, and I would just like to have the assurance that there will not be too many of these items in future reports of the Auditor-General, because if there really is an anomaly, it is that a Department of Information which should give information freely actually deals in secret information.

I regret that the hon. member for Orange Grove made that speech this morning. I think the time has come to discuss this matter on a high level. I should also like to refer to the speeches made here yesterday, but first I want to say something about what the hon. member has just said. I think it is accepted to-day in any democratic country that a government should have an information service. No democratic country is without its information service, and that information service is used to inform the public of what is done for the population. That is done in England. A vast number of brochures, some of which I may show the hon. member, is published in England with the specific object of explaining what the Government is doing for the people.

Locally.

Yes, locally. That is also done in America. I have a mass of pamphlets here which I may show hon. members, and which are published in America on matters of all kinds, to show what is done for the population in America, In 1945, when they consolidated the information service of the British Government under the Central Office of Information, Mr. Churchill expressed it as follows: “We are taking large sums of money from the pockets of the public at present, and it is right that we should tell the public what is being done with that money.” As regards the non-Whites in this country, I think it is the right policy to take the non-Whites with the Government. I do not want to talk about the policy of the National Party, but I think it is a good thing that the policy of the Government is presented. I further want to say that if one wants to deal with any matter regarding the non-Whites—take for example the question of combating foot-and-mouth disease—one first has to inform those people why one has to treat their cattle, or shoot them, or isolate them, or place them under quarantine.

What about Bantu administration?

I say one should inform the people and explain to them what one is doing for them. Take the question of soil conservation, contours, the question of stock improvement, and all matters of that kind in their territories. It is essential to have an information service among the non-Whites in order to convey these things to them. The hon. member for Orange Grove is trying to create the impression that we are using our information service only for local propaganda, and last night the hon. member for Durban (Point) advanced more or less the same argument. Mr. Chairman, if one has soldiers in the field, one needs many more people on the home front to keep the soldiers in the field and to supply them with ammunition and supplies. In other words, there is nothing strange about the fact that we have only a small number of people abroad; I wish we could have had many more there, and I shall say something about that just now, but one needs a large number of people on the home front to supply those people with information, to carry out the necessary research, to compile and print periodicals, to manufacture and dispatch films, etc. In my view it is ridiculous to argue that we are using this service only in domestic interests, or for political purposes.

Let me now say something else. Here I have an extract from an article written about the information service in Britain. It was written by Mr. T. Fife Clark, C.B.E., and the article was called “Do We Need Government Information Services?” He said—

I say it is an established fact to-day that one must have information services, and that these people must do their duty to tell the country about the policy of the Government and the things it proposes for the country. I make no apology for that.

I must come back to the speeches of last night, and I want to say at once that I regret the speeches that were made. I was most disappointed, particularly in the speech made by the hon. member for Bezuidenhout. He is the new chairman of their group, and I had hoped that he would produce a new tone. I must say frankly that we are very good friends, but I was disappointed. My hopes were indeed put to shame. He said he wanted to be constructive. Now I do not want to argue with him about his theoretical views, with regard to the question of whether one can draw a distinction between State policy and Government policy, or between South Africa and the Government, or whether one should draw such a distinction in the terminology of our information service, because I do not think that is the point at issue. I think it should be said that that kind of theory has no substance in practice under present-day circumstances. I therefore say I was most disappointed with the old ostrich policy of the United Party, to bury one’s head in the sand and to refuse to recognize the practical and actual task we are faced with.

What is in actual fact our information task? In the Western countries, as in any other country, we are dealing with states fighting for their own interests, just as we are fighting for our own interests. They are fighting for their own security and for their own survival. At present the Western countries regard it almost without exception as in their interest to maintain and develop their friendship with the African states, and even to maintain their friendship in a wider sense with the Afro-Asiatic states that are not communistic, and to try to convert those that are communistic to democracy. They regard the retention of that friendship as more important than the friendship of a small country like South Africa, or even of the other White communities in Southern Africa. The point at issue is therefore this, that the Western countries are seeking the friendship of the non-White states. It is my conviction that the policy applied in respect of South Africa at present does not in all cases reflect the convictions of the Western countries, but is adopted in an attempt to satisfy the demands of the African states. The convictions and the actions of most Western countries are determined by the voluble demands of the immature nations of Africa, and that means that the friendship of those immature and unstable so-called non-aligned nations remains of more importance to the Western nations than the stable and well-tried friendship of a country like South Africa. I therefore say that we should understand very well that Britain and the U.S.A, will perhaps welcome a United Party Government here, because they would like us to make concessions, and they would like to have room for manoeuvring, but what will that mean? They want to play for time. That is what is really at issue. If concessions are made, it will be a relief to them, but that relief will only be temporary, because the Black States will persist in their demands until the final stage is reached, which they would like to have in this country, and that is Black domination. [Time limit.]

I want to support the argument of the hon. member for Bezuidenhout when he says the Department must concentrate its publications on reflecting South Africa’s image as a whole and not create the impression of a country totally synonymous with apartheid. Of course the word “apartheid” is no longer used, but a change in the wrapping does not change the contents of the parcel. As I see it, to sell South Africa we must sell its beauty, its wealth, its history and, most important of all, its democracy. To sell democracy is to show the different political solutions offered by the main political parties. Most of the publications published by the Department are fair, but it seems to me that too great emphasis is placed on political solutions, and then only on the solution offered by one political party. That is why a political party can see fit to use its publications as propaganda in an election, as happened recently in Umhlatuzana, and in this respect I would support the hon. member for Durban (Point).

That is not true.

I saw the publications of the Department used in the election and I believe this emphasizes only too well that the type of information being put out by the Department is more in the line of political propaganda than information about South Africa. If political solutions are noted at all, then I believe the political solutions offered by all parties should appear in all these publications of the Department. It is essential that a true and accurate picture of South Africa should be given, both at home and abroad. But if we are going to give a true and accurate picture of South Africa, then I believe, too, that we must tell the people and the prospective immigrants overseas that here in South Africa we believe in indoctrinating children. I say this because at no stage has any hon. member opposite repudiated this statement. This is the sort of thing which happens and this is the information which immigrants to our country require to know, whether their children are expected to be indoctrinated in schools.

A further point is that in last night’s paper we had the evidence of a number of immigrants returning to England. Now I accept that this happens all over the world and that there are people with grouses. These people said that the cost of living in South Africa was higher than they were led to believe.

It is higher now after the budget.

What I want to know is who told these people about the cost of living in South Africa? Was it the Department of Information. If so, the official responsible should be hauled over the coals because he misled these immigrants.

What about the many people who are satisfied with South Africa?

It is essential that a true and accurate picture of South Africa should be given, and the only way to do that is to give the views of all the political parties. The position at the moment is that if the Government changed its policy to-morrow nearly every item of propaganda put out by the Department would have to be scrapped as worthless. If the Government changed tomorrow, that propaganda would be useless. If the Prime Minister changed to-morrow, that propaganda would be useless. Good information would be good for the country regardless of the political party in power. I believe that the information being put out by this Department reflects almost entirely the views of the political party in power at the moment.

Let us look at some of the items appearing in this South African Quiz which I believe is issued to immigrants to this country. I get the impression from reading it that this has become the policy-making Department of the Government, because I believe there are things in this book which this Government plays down and tells us little about. Let us have a look at the question in regard to Indians. It says here: “The idea is that they should eventually have charge of affairs which directly concern their community. It should lead to political control.” This is what immigrants will believe the Government policy is. If so, I believe that we have heard very little of this particular aspect of Government policy. It further goes on to say—

This magic word “Commonwealth” appears two or three times in this book. There are other examples in this book, South African Quiz, and I believe “Quiz” is the right word, because after reading it one does not know whether one is reading the propaganda sheet of the Nationalist Party or a magazine trying to sell the many advantages of this country.

Let us look a little further. In an article dealing with Bantu territories it says that when all the land is purchased the Bantu territories will comprise almost 42,000,000 acres, or 65,625 square miles, which is larger than England and Wales together and four times the area of Switzerland. I submit that is all very well, but perhaps the book might have told us just how large a part of South Africa is comprised in these Bantu territories. It might say that it is 13 point something per cent.

You should join the Progressive Party. [Interjections.]

Information should be accurate and I submit that this information is anything but accurate. [Interjection.] I ask the hon. members who are interjecting so much to go to their constituents and tell them this—

That is fair enough, but listen to this—

The Whites now have homelands. I ask those hon. members who interject so much to go to their constituents and tell them that they are now living in White homelands. I notice that they are not so noisy right now. But all through this book we have reference to a “commonwealth”. There is another item here on the Transkei. It would surprise hon. members to know just how much self-government the Transkei has got. But one thing intrigues me. It says that the Transkei controls the following Departments of State which have already been transferred to the Transkei: Education, Agriculture, Forestry, but what I want to stop at is education. [Time limit.]

Before I comment on some aspects of the speeches made by hon. members on the opposite side, I should like to refer to the production of films manufactured for information purposes. I notice that an amount of R227,000 has been provided for that in the Estimates. According to my estimate, that will suffice to manufacture only nine or ten ten-minute films. That is not enough. The role of the film and the radio for the dissemination of information in South Africa and abroad cannot be over-emphasized. In our times they are just as important as the printed word. Perhaps the Department should find ways and means of manufacturing more films, particularly documentaries, with its available funds. I know that for various reasons well-equipped film studios of experienced private film manufacturers, including seven in my constituency, are at present under-employed as a result of certain monopolistic developments in the film industry which are not relevant to this debate. I want to plead strongly, however, that the Department of Information should make more use of the services of these private manufacturers—all of whom I know to be good and loyal South Africans. We need their initiative and skill in this field.

Then I want to pay tribute to that small but valiant band of information officers abroad who are fighting for South Africa in the front ranks, despite the fact that the only encouragement they receive from the Opposition is that suspicion is cast on them and their good work. According to the hon. member for Port Natal it appears as though those people in the front ranks are not presenting the world abroad with an honest image of our country. Those people and their families sacrifice much for their fatherland, and they are frequently given no credit at home for their selfless services. The journalists connected with the S.A. Panorama, of which the hon. member spoke a while ago, also deserve honourable mention. The standard of their publication is high. The technical finish of the reading matter and the presentation and objectivity of the Department’s publications are high and redound to the credit not only of the Department, but of journalism as a whole in South Africa. Panorama and Digest of South African Affairs are well-known publications which in my opinion are worth every cent spent on them by the Government. In fact, they are a good investment. I want to plead in particular that more individual South Africans and South African organizations like agriculture, commerce, industry and others, should do their duty and make more use of these publications to publicize South Africa abroad. 25,000 copies of Panorama are being sent abroad already, and also 36,000 copies of the Digest. These are fine figures, but they are still too small and should at least be doubled.

I now have a problem as regards the hon. member for Bezuidenhout, who said yesterday that the Department should transmit a well-balanced image abroad and that the information service propaganda is too much in the service of apartheid, and in that respect he has now received support from the hon. member for Port Natal, who in addition cast the suspicion on the officials abroad that they are disseminating a biased image. But yesterday the hon. member for Mooi River said that the Department should reply positively to attacks from abroad. That is the very opposite of the hon. member for Bezuidenhout’s argument. They are blowing hot and cold. An analysis of the attacks from abroad and in the overseas Press shows that 100 per cent of them are aimed at South Africa’s policy of separate development. I refer to this publication with a circulation of 7,000,000, with this photograph of our hon. Prime Minister on it. I have never seen such a distorted presentation. I should like to ask the hon. members for Bezuidenhout and Mooi River and Port Natal how they would have responded to such a scandalous bit of journalism as this edition of Time, which is read by 7,000,000 readers. It is purely an attack on apartheid, and I should like to know how the Department is to reply to it if it does not hit back with the same weapon. I should be most ashamed to have my name coupled with a bit of journalism like this. There have been sneering references to the objectivity of our Department of Information. The hon. member for Bezuidenhout in particular referred us to the so-called democracy of America, which our Department should strive to emulate. Now I refer to the latest United States Information Service News Digest of 25th August. In our papers, also in The Cape Times and The Cape Argus, we read every day about race riots in the United States and about blood that flows and bricks that fly and about thousands of troops and police that have to be mustered to restrain those Negroes who revolt against the hypocrisy of race integration in America, and then that information service of America comes along with this sobstory—

That is hypocrisy of the worst degree on the part of an information service, but the hon. member for Bezuidenhout asked that our information service should follow that example. I ask our Department of Information to adhere to their objective and honest standards, because honesty is still the best policy as regards information. The moment our Information Department departs from their standards of honesty and objectivity, it will spell the end of that service.

I want to say that it is now five months since the Department of Information was entrusted to my charge. I should like to begin by saying that my first observations were most objective, to see what was being done and what I considered should be done. In the first place I want to pay tribute and to express my gratitude to my predecessor, Minister Waring, who built this Department up from the ground and who had a difficult task, with a large number of people who had no experience and whom he had to guide and direct in the fulfilment of this most difficult task. At the outset I also want to pay tribute to two previous secretaries, Mr. Wennie du Plessis and Mr. Brandt Fourie, who assisted him in building up this Department. I also want to express the hope, and I know this is not an idle hope, that the present Secretary, Mr. Barry, will perform his duties just as well.

Before beginning this discussion, I want to say immediately that I myself and my Department of Information realize better than any member taking part in this debate how difficult a task it is, and I am certainly not underestimating any institution or group of persons who is striving to build up a really favourable image of South Africa abroad. It is not child’s play. No less a person than General Smuts admitted two decades ago, when he returned from the UN—and remember that he was the statesman to whom the drafting of the UN Charter was entrusted—before the National Party was in power, that he had been faced by a stone wall of prejudice, and that the notorious Time, which is now figuring so prominently again, predicted even then that South Africa was on the brink of a holocaust. One may be inclined not to attach too much weight to the prophetic abilities of Time, but the American writer, the academic Jacques Barzun, once described it as a publication which concentrates on misinformation coupled with innuendo. But since that time this stone wall of prejudice has been systematically built up by the mighty communication media that have developed.

In the more recent past that process has been fervently promoted by the rising powers of the so-called Third World. Those are the young and immature peoples of Africa and of Asia who have waged their feud against South Africa, incited to it by the communist states. As they gained an increasingly stronger position of political power on the world forum of the UN, they built up a convenient platform for their unbridled attacks on the Whites of Southern Africa. It is against that background that the work of the Department of Information should be seen, and also the statement in the annual report—and I quote from the annual report—that “there has been in several countries a gradual yet significant shift of attitudes towards South African affairs”.

The hon. member for Bezuidenhout, who was the main speaker for the Opposition, said that this statement appeared annually, and that we would never reach the end of the rainbow. But will he deny that we are making progress from one year to the next, and will he deny that a great man like General Smuts had already come up against that wall of prejudice? Will he deny that we are making progress, and will he deny—and I quote from the annual report again—that the professional anti-South African propagandist and pressure groups are unable to command with impunity the general ear and the headlines as they did before? Will he deny that? Will he not admit that there has been progress along this way? It has perhaps not escaped the notice of the hon. member for Bezuidenhout that more and more thinking people in the West are now coming forward to state the true facts about South Africa in word and writing. Surely the hon. member reads. Has he not noticed that, or is he blinding himself deliberately, and will he not see the improvement? Is he not also glad if a better image of South Africa is formed in a world which has been so tremendously hostile to us? It seems to me as though the hon. member has not been convinced by the annual report and by Press reports which appear in local papers from time to time, and I want to give him a few recent examples. Because nowhere in his generalization of everything he had to say, did he advance anything in support of his opinion. Everything he stated was mere opinion. He did not give a single quotation, except to refer in negative condemnation to the annual report, and say what is not true.

I quoted the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Let me quote him a few examples. In the largest Swiss Sunday paper, Schweizerische Allgemeine Volkszeitung, Richard Haller writes the following—

What a tribute to South Africa! The Daily American, of Rome, speaks of “an African country where everything works, from parliament to supermarkets”. In the well-known Elseviers Weekblad of the Netherlands, their collaborator, Mr. Gideonse, writes the following with reference to the South West Africa case—

An eminent businessman, Mr. Freddy Cattoir. vice-president of the Belgium Chambers of Commerce abroad, concludes a favourable article about South Africa in the publication La Dépéche with the words—

Is it not surprising that one should hear these notes from foreign countries, and hear such discordant notes in one’s own fatherland?

Is it not surprising if one thinks: Where is the patriotism, where is the feeling for South Africa? Are the people caught up in their narrow party political blindness so that they cannot see beyond their noses? I could extend this list and I could occupy this House for days with statements made by prominent figures after they had visited South Africa, but I shall content myself with the following. Here I have a file with a mass of cuttings of articles and commentary that appeared in the Press abroad. In passing I may point out to hon. members that publicity for the case advanced before the International Court of Justice by South Africa was naturally one of the priority projects of my Department. Here are some 30 leading articles from publications all over Germany, and the vast majority of them are either positive or at least factual.

In an article in Dagbreek of 7th August, 1966, it was stated that the anti-apartheid campaign in Western Germany was beginning to have an uphill struggle—a direct result of the work of the Department of Information. In the University town of Gottingen an antiapartheid committee was founded by two German ladies, but one of the ladies, Miss Elke Wiedenroth, stated that there were some hitches. She said—

That is a German lady. The hon. member for Bezuidenhout should go and learn from her, then he would cultivate somewhat more patriotism towards his own fatherland.

I will not be told by you how to be a patriot.

This lady also said—

Hon. members should remember that this is a testimonial from enemies. It is not a testimonial from friends.

The hon. member for Primrose has already quoted from the evidence given by Professor Charles B. Marshall before the O’Hara committee of the American Congress, in which the Professor gave his compatriots the good advice to “cool off” in respect of South Africa.

I now ask the hon. member for Bezuidenhout whether he does not regard the examples I have just quoted as examples of progress—that progress which the annual report describes as “gradual and significant”. We do not noise that abroad and we do not boast of that, but we are grateful that gradual and significant progress has been made. Those words in the annual report are justified.

The question which occurs to me, however, is to what extent the Opposition gives its support at all times to these sustained and strenuous efforts to further that progress, so that we will eventually be able to reach “the end of the rainbow”. That is the question which occurs to me. To what extent is the Opposition helping? As hon. members know, the Press in Denmark has recently been most vindictive in their attacks on South Africa, particularly where the small agitating anti-South African groups are now stepping up their militant efforts.

The Danish paper Politiken published the following under a prominent heading:. “South Africa is a dictatorship in the Hitler style—says Opposition spokesman.” The paper refers to a speech made by a prominent frontbencher of the United Party, namely the hon. member for Yeoville, in which he allegedly accused the Government of employing “Gestapo methods”. The same paper went further and alleged that a United Party organizer, Mr. Alf Widman, had objected to the suspected use of “Gestapo agents” in the Provincial Administration.

Now I ask, Mr. Chairman, if these things happen, by what right or claim does the United Party come here and criticize in a destructively negative fashion? There are individuals on that side—and I now come to one of the hon. members for whom I have a good word to-day—who also feel that we should jointly publicize the image of South Africa. I am referring to the hon. member for Mooi River, whom I want to congratulate on his speech. Of course, the hon. member comes from the Senate, where he learned good manners! The hon. member pointed out that “each of us, our entire country” is concerned with this matter. That is indeed true; the world abroad draws no distinction between National Party and United Party, between the Progressive Party and whichever group a person may belong to. They lump the whole lot together, and their condemnation is directed at all the Whites collectively. It is not merely a Party with a certain ideology which is condemned by them.

We find an example of that in the interview with Miss Stephanie Kemp which appeared in yesterday’s Burger. During the interview she said—

That is what our enemies believe. Faced as we are by all that immaturity on the part of the world, is this the time to quarrel about our own image which is disseminated by us, and to do so without giving examples? The hon. member for Port Natal made a weak attempt by giving South African Quiz as an example. It was really a weak attempt. His speech was really the poorest made during the discussion of this Vote.

To come back to the hon. member for Bezuidenhout; his allegation that the Department of Information does not give enough publicity to the idea that we are a democratic country, is absolutely incorrect and far-fetched. In this very South African Quiz, one of the oldest publications of the Information Service, of which hundreds of thousands have been distributed throughout the world in eight languages through the years, the following is said on page 15—

—at that time the hon. member for Bezuidenhout was still a member of it

The hon. member must now listen, because he was the one who levelled an accusation. On page 16 of the Quiz the following appears—

Equally nonsensical is his allegation that the Department’s publicity is too much “in the service of apartheid”. What are the true facts in that respect? I shall mention a few of the titles of films: “South West Africa—The Challenge”, “White South Africans”, “Bastion of the South”, “On the Move”, “Citizens of Tomorrow”, “Workshop of a Continent”, “Southern Symphony”. In those films and in eight other that have since been manufactured, there is nothing whatsoever that propagates the apartheid concept or ideology. They are the main medium we employ in our work abroad to give an image of South Africa. The same applies in respect of our publications. Surely the hon. member cannot allege that the Department’s prestige publication, Panorama, is in the service of apartheid. What about the “Orange River Project”? What about “South African Progress and Prospects”, “South Africa—Land for Investment”, and “South Africa—Export Country”? I merely mention these few examples. Mr. Chairman, the hon. member has much to learn if he really wants to make a contribution to this very important cause. He will have to bury his politicizing if he wants to help perform a useful task in South Africa to present South Africa in the correct light. There is no room for politicizing.

In his constructive speech to which I have referred previously, the hon. member for Mooi River pleaded that we should present South Africa as “the only stable, civilized country in Africa”. I quote the hon. member’s own words. That is exactly what we are continually doing in our publications—perhaps in a more subtle fashion, by making the facts speak for themselves. I shall just give the hon. member one of our most recent publications, so that he may convince himself. I should like to hand it to him in a moment.

Where I do not agree with the hon. member, is when he suggests that we should try to reach the masses. Now, no information service can make any headway by canvassing the masses. It is absolutely prohibitive in the sense of being too expensive. It simply cannot be done. But the method which is followed is in the first place to get people abroad merely to listen, and in the second place to group them around your information attaché, to expand those groups and to let them exert their influence. That is what is being done.

The increased use of television is also advocated. That is already being done, as is indicated on page 20 of the Annual Report. The Department’s latest production on the Orange River has just been presented on the B.B.C. in Britain under the title “River of Diamonds”. It is also my policy to make more use of that medium.

The hon. member for Durban (Point) asked me whether I intended repudiating the statement by Commissioner-General Eiselen reported in the Burger of 15th December, 1965. I must presume that the hon. member agrees with that statement. Does he agree with it?

I read the statement and I asked you whether you agreed with it.

I am just asking whether the hon. member agrees with the statement made by Commissioner-General Eiselen?

Partly, yes.

Well, I also agree with him. We are therefore in complete agreement. I do not repudiate him. I think Dr. Eiselen’s entire argument was—and there I think the hon. member misread, and he should go and read the report once again—that it was essential that the information service should expand its field personnel. I quote what he said: “Let us employ them to perform the service locally, true national service …”

There I agree with him.

That is what the Department is doing at present. The Department already employs 71 Bantu who do information work among their own people. I plan to expand that.

There I agree.

The Department makes its publications and its brochures available …

[Inaudible.]

Come now, I have finished talking with the hon. member. He should now listen further. I am telling him more about how I agree with him! The Department makes its publications and brochures available to anybody who asks for them. It does not inquire to what political party such a person belongs. The hon. member launched such a strong attack on the hon. member for Umhlatuzana. It does not ask to what political party that person belongs. If the United Party wants them, they can also have some. We do not ask them where they are sent to. They can use them in whichever way they please.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question? The hon. the Minister has replied in respect of only one statement by Dr. Eiselen. Does he agree with the other statement, namely that which refers to the dilemma of the Department?

I have already explained that there is no dilemma in the Department. The Department continues, and I shall shortly reply to what the hon. member for Orange Grove said, to prove that there is no dilemma.

You therefore repudiate Dr. Eiselen in that regard.

I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Turffontein on a very well-prepared speech. He also refuted the arguments of the Opposition speakers to a large extent by pointing out that the world expects the Whites in South Africa to move in the direction of race integration. That is all that will satisfy the world. That does not apply only to this Government, it also applies to the party of the hon. member for Bezuidenhout. If they ever succeeded in reaching this side of the House, he would face the same difficulty this Government is facing.

The hon. member for Turffontein considered that the Department was rather too modest, and should do more to noise its work abroad. There I disagree with him in all love. It is not our task to noise our work abroad and to boast of what we have achieved. It is our task to render service to South Africa, and as the service is rendered, we can be grateful for the progress we have made.

The hon. member for Primrose made a further suggestion that we should supply more reading matter to people leaving our country. I may just say that I am very glad that he agrees with me. Some months ago I gave instructions that a handy container of pamphlets containing a brief statement supplying the factual information should be given to any traveller entering or leaving South Africa, whether by plane or by boat, so that they will be informed of the main facts in respect of South Africa. My Department is doing that, and I intend expanding it even further.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to reply briefly to what the hon. member for Orange Grove said. Of course, he did not feel happy the past few days, and at the end he had to rid himself of some venom. I must say the hon. member is always looking for something. To him Panorama, is also a triviality. If only the hon. member knew how much it is appreciated. It is a prestige publication. And incidentally, Mr. Chairman, it is printed by the Voortrekker Press. Tenders were called for, and the Voortrekker Press tender was the lowest. The printing is quite good. It does not matter to whom the Voortrekker Press belongs; it will always be printed by the Press that can produce it in the best and most inexpensive way. We pay readily for the losses on it, because it is a prestige publication. One has to pay for many other things that yield no revenue and that are not paying. Then the hon. member referred to the secret service again. The hon. member knows that last year R500 appeared on the Estimates for the secret service. Not one cent of that was spent. Not one cent was added to the Estimates this year. Not one cent. Sir. The hon. member is always looking for this kind of thing. He knows—it is in the Estimates—that nothing was spent. The entire R500 was surrendered unspent.

Then a great deal was said about the functions of this Department. These functions were instituted by a Proclamation of the State President which may be read in Government Notice No 1142 of 1961. on page 7 of Government Gazette No. 120. The hon. member will then see what are the activities of this Department as defined in the Proclamation. The most important of these is “the taking over of all the duties and responsibilities hitherto carried out, internally as well as externally, by the South African Information Service”, The notice goes further and refers to the Coloureds, the Indians, the Bantu and all those people. And now hon. members on the opposite side come along five years later and still do not know with what object this Department was established, and they make a great fuss about the fact that it is doing all kinds of work which they thought should actually be done only abroad. Then it is said, yes, but they notice that the most important are the local activities. The insinuation is then that there are more local than overseas officials because they do local propaganda work for the National Party. That is the insinuation. But that is not true. The hon. member has never made an analysis of the figures in respect of where the people work. At head office there are 195 persons. In the internal service there are 152 persons. In the external service there are 43. But now I go further. In addition to the 43 persons abroad—which appear to be fewer—there are also 32 typists, clerks, etc., appointed and remunerated by the Department of Foreign Affairs. There is therefore a total of 75 units working in the Department of Information abroad. Apart from those, there are 49 expert and technical staff members working here in South Africa to produce material used by the offices abroad. Surely the hon. member knows that those things have to be processed and corrected at a head office. News reports arrive, and are recast in order to present them in the right form. Surely the hon. member for Orange Grove worked on a newspaper at one time—it was actually quite a decent newspaper, namely Die Kruithoring. But it seems to me as though he has forgotten everything he learned there. What is more, Sir, is that if the hon. member looked at the Estimates he would find, if he wanted to make a small calculation, that the amount appropriated for internal services is R981,216, and for external services R2,363,784. In other words, for internal services it is 29.3 per cent and for external services 70.7 per cent. I just want to say that the National Party is rich and strong enough and also has enough material and brain power to produce its own publications. It did so again in the past election, and cut the ground from under the feet of the United Party.

By false allegations.

There was no need for us to use a government information service. We do not degrade ourselves by using the State’s money for party political propaganda. Mr. Chairman, I think I have now replied to all the hon. members.

Mr. Chairman,

I want to make it quite clear that we are not impressed at all by the Minister’s talk about patriotism. I am sorry to have to say it, but we do not regard hon. members on the Government side as good patriots at all. I say that for the simple reason that this Government has wrecked the image of South Africa abroad. The Government will at all times place the interests of their party above that of South Africa, and that is the test of patriotism: Is a man prepared to put the interests of his country above that of his party? Sir, they do not care one scrap what damage they do to South Africa, as long as they can serve petty party interests, and therefore we are not impressed, and we will not be lectured—certainly not by people on that side—as to how to be good South Africans. I am the last one to be interested at all in any norm put forward by that side in the matter of patriotism. Sir, let me go further and tell the hon. the Minister that people abroad are not against South Africa. I have had the opportunity of travelling a lot and so has the Minister. South Africa is a popular country; South Africans are popular. People are not against South Africa; they are against the system applied by the Government, and we are not going to allow the Government to equate South Africa with the party in power. There is a vast difference between South Africa and the Government. If I attack the Government I am not attacking South Africa; I am attacking the partly in power, which is but an aspect of South Africa. Take the case of Germany during the last war. Sir, people were not against the Germans. I ask the Minister: Was he against the German people? No, people were against the Nazi system. After the war the Germans discarded the Nazi system, and what is the position to-day? The Germans are popular again, and fully accepted by the community of nations. Take Japan. Japan was one of the most unpopular countries in the world, and now that they have changed their system, they are popular. We hear a lot of talk from the Government about South Africa being in the dog box. Sir, South Africa is not attacked as a country. What is attacked is the system for which this Government is responsible. The Minister comes along and quotes General Smuts. He says that even in his day General Smuts complained of prejudice. That is true, but the difference is this: If General Smuts had continued to lead South Africa he would not have aggravated the position. As a wise statesman he would have led South Africa in such a way as to improve our position, not to aggravate it.

What about Portugal and Rhodesia?

Sir, you see the confusion even in the mind of a Minister. There are two things at issue in the world; the one is racism and the other is colonialism. The attack on Portugal has nothing to do with racism. The attack on Portugal and Rhodesia has to do with colonialism. We are in a different position. We are a free, independent country. Rhodesia could have been an independent country years ago; they could even have joined South Africa. They were stupid; their leaders were short-sighted and to-day they are paying the price; but their problem is one of colonialism, because they are still seen as part of the old British colonial set-up. It is true that General Smuts said that there was prejudice, but he would have overcome it whilst this Government is feeding it all the time and aggravating it and increasing the bad image of South Africa. I want to say to the Minister that I admit that there are points of progress.

You would not admit it.

Oh no, the test is what is the position on balance. The Minister can quote, and I can quote, people who have some good things to say about the Government, but for every one person he can quote favourably, there are 1,000 who make unfavourable statements; and that is the test. The test is not whether you can quote the names of people who have been impressed with some aspects of policy, but I say that on balance our position has not become easier in the world. That is the test. The Minister says that I did not quote any support for my attitude. I did mention the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and I also quoted the previous Minister of Foreign Affairs who said it was useless for us to try and persuade anybody towards the Government’s point of view. A man like Stuart Cloete, who is a friend of the Department, who did work for the Department of Information, came back to this country and said in a statement that it was not worth spending a cent on the propaganda put out by the Department. I do not agree with him, but even the editor of Dagbreek came forward with an article the other day in which he said that we must have “ ’n verligte Staatsinligtingsdiens”; that present efforts were not satisfactory at all. I want to emphasize my point again. The Government must, of course, put its policy across; it is entitled to do so. It is in control of South Africa and it must put forward its policy, but my point was that when it came to advertising South Africa as a whole, then we must put the emphasis on the democratic nature of South Africa. For instance, I have here a Japanese publication, a very beautiful one, “The Japan of To-day”. Japan was in a very bad position; it had a terrible image because of its old authoritarian government. Now it is breaking that image down, and throughout their publications they emphasize the fact that Japan to-day has a vigorous parliamentary democracy.

We do the same thing.

No. In this new publication, “This is South Africa”, there is no reference at all to the fact that this is a country where there is a free exchange of politics. They have a lot to say about apartheid. By the way, “apartheid” is a word which even Radio South Africa has discarded, because it is felt that it is bad for South Africa. There is nothing about our free parliamentary set-up and the free and democratic exchange of political views in South Africa. When they come to the political section they deal with apartheid. I am now talking about comprehensive publications, not specific things like the Orange River project. In every comprehensive publication dealing with South Africa, the emphasis is not on the democratic nature of South Africa or even on the possibility of change. They emphasize the fact that this is an apartheid land. Sir, what businessman puts his worst article in his display window? You display your best product. Our State Information office always puts forward our worst product, apartheid. If I hand a person a publication like this when I go abroad, I want to know that its contents are precise and correct; that he cannot trip me up over mistakes. I want the Minister to read this article on apartheid and to see what they say about the position of the Coloureds. There is no time to quote, but what is said here, is not truthful. I cannot hand this to a person if he is going to cross-question me; I would be placing myself in an impossible position. I would like the Minister to tell us who writes these things. Does he check up on them? To mention one point only, it says here that the Coloured Council will have all power over everything affecting the Coloureds. The Minister knows that that is not so. [Time limit.]

The hon. member for Bezuidenhout has just said that one puts one’s best products on display. The best product which South Africa can put on display in the outside world is undoubtedly not the policy of the United Party, but separate development, and that is why it is being done. As far as his assertion is concerned that the United Party should also be included in the image of South Africa which is being presented abroad, I can only say that it would probably do the image of South Africa a great deal of harm. What it would amount to would be that we would be presenting an image of South Africa abroad which, inter alia, included a policy of “race federation” which must inevitably end in a blood bath here in South Africa, and that would certainly not help to promote the image of South Africa. The United Party is very concerned about its own image, which it wants incorporated into the image of South Africa for the information of the outside world. Why do they not feel concerned about the image of the hon. member for Houghton? If one wants an overall image of South Africa, an image of all its parties and the policies of all the parties, should not her party also be included in that image? They are only concerned about their own image. In other words they are inconsistent. The hon. member for Bezuidenhout also referred to the Portuguese policy. He said that, as far as Portugal is concerned, it was not being attacked because of a race policy but because of a colonialistic policy. The policy there is not a racialistic policy, but it is not a colonialistic either, because Angola and Mozambique are not colonies of Portugal but provinces of the Portuguese state. Nevertheless these attacks are being made against Portugal, and that is the case because the attacks have their origin in hostility towards the Whites in Africa. It is being directed against the Whites in Africa and not against apartheid or against colonialism; those are only the pretexts of which use is being made. The motive behind the whole business is to get the Whites out of Africa. Mr. Chairman, when we hear about Mr. Wilson, the Prime Minister of England, then to the world Mr. Wilson is England, and if we hear about President Johnson, then to the world President Johnson is the United States of America. If we hear of President De Gaulle of France, then to the world President De Gaulle is France and when we hear of Dr. Verwoerd of South Africa, then to the world Dr. Verwoerd is South Africa, and that is why the attacks are being made on the Government of South Africa and the policy of that Government. Inevitably the information service is defensive and must refute the attacks made on the Government of South Africa, i.e. the Government which is associated with the State of South Africa, and place the facts in the right light. This is also the attitude adopted by General Smuts when the information service was introduced during the World War to correct misconceptions and to make propaganda in this respect in order to correct the facts and make the truth known. I have just referred to the World War. Another war is being waged to-day and that is the cold war. The aim of the State Information Services of all the countries of the world which are involved in the cold war is to put the points of view of those countries in the cold war, and it is also the duty and task of South Africa and the function of our State Information Service to put the point of view of South Africa in the cold war.

I want to raise only one more point. According to the Estimates we are spending approximately R95,000 on visitors from abroad this year. I think the hon. the Minister will concede that a great deal of success is not always achieved in respect of some visitors; sometimes they do more harm than good but generally speaking it is probably the best form of publicity to bring people here so that they may see South Africa for themselves, and for this reason this is an aspect which I readily support. I want to ask that where funds are made available one should rather think in the direction of bringing more people to South Africa. The question I want to put to the hon. the Minister, is the following: It is an expensive item to bring people to South Africa; we have to spend a considerable amount of money on that. Once these people have visited and left South Africa what is the attitude of the Department of Information towards them? Does it keep in touch with them? Is any notice taken of the statements made by them or the opinions expressed by them at the end of their visit? I think that is extremely important. If one brings people to this country at great expense to take a look at conditions here, then, whether or not one is going to agree with them, some kind of scientific survey ought to be made of the opinions held by these visitors at the end of the tour in which they got to know such conditions at first hand. My question is whether scientific means are employed in order to determine what opinions they hold. Are their opinions tabulated and are trends determined? The impression one gets is that a thread runs through their findings. There are certain things which impress them. Most of them are impressed by the Transkei and that is a good, positive thing; but something which bothers many of them is petty apartheid.

What is petty apartheid?

I should like to reply to that in a debate to come; it is not appropriate here. This is not a Vote under which we can discuss race policy.

You were kicked out of the party on account of major apartheid; you have always been opposed to our policy; you were not kicked out on account of petty apartheid.

I do not know what the hon. member means by “major apartheid”.

I am saying you were kicked out on account of major apartheid.

The hon. member does not know what he is talking about; I still am a member and at that time I was a member of the executive committee of Sabra and I have always been in favour of the development of the Bantu territories in the economic, social and political sphere; I have always been in favour of that and this side of the House is also in favour of that. Therefore I do not know what the hon. member is talking about. I differed about petty apartheid. Let us leave that however; that is not what is under discussion now. My point is that visitors come here and then make statements, and one finds that there are certain things which seem to bother all of them. My question to the hon. the Minister is the following: When he has studied all these opinions are they also submitted to the Government and to the Cabinet? Surely that is what a good businessman will do. If he sells a product he will make a regular investigation of what the weaker selling points are and he will then submit particulars to his management so as to see what can be done for boosting the product.

I want to conclude with these words: One grows somewhat tired of the old technique of speakers opposite to refer to a few cases where opposition members were quoted in publications abroad. Of course politicians are quoted everywhere. If I have spoken the truth I do not mind being quoted anywhere. I would only be ashamed if I had not spoken the truth.

But has Marais Steyn spoken the truth?

The question is whether he was reported correctly. The Government usually adopts the attitude that overseas publications lie and misrepresent, but when they quote a member of the Opposition, everything is absolutely correct all at once. I want to tell the Minister and hon. members opposite that for every one quotation which is made abroad from a speech by a member of the Opposition a thousand quotations are made from speeches by the Prime Minister and speakers on that side. Just look at the reports of the UN; just look at books on South Africa. Do they quote the Opposition? They quote Government speakers. The enemies of South Africa do not use the Opposition for their case; they use Government speakers and I shall prove that. I shall seek an opportunity of proving that in this House. There are numerous books abroad, in which the Opposition is not even mentioned, which are directed against South Africa and who are quoted? The speakers who are quoted are speakers on that side, not speakers on this side. A country’s image abroad is not created by what is said by its Opposition Party. The hon. member for Kempton Park just said that France is De Gaulle: what carries weight in connection with France is what De Gaulle says. One does not judge France on what its Opposition says. A country’s image is created by what its Government says, by legislation passed by its Government. For this reason I say that if members of the Opposition are quoted, it leaves us cold, because for every Opposition member quoted abroad a thousand cases can be mentioned where enemies of South Africa quote speeches from that side to the detriment of South Africa.

I am not going to reply to all the nonsense spoken by the hon. member but I just want to say that we continually remain in contact with all visitors. They are supplied with material and in most instances the reports they write on South Africa are very favourable. Where it appears that they have not understood certain things too well as a result of confusion, they are given further information. I am pleased that the hon. member at least admitted that excellent results were achieved by bringing visitors to this country.

Vote put and agreed to.

The House proceeded to the consideration of private members’ business.

I move—

You will realize, Mr. Chairman, that within the space of time granted me to cover such a wide field, I cannot indulge the desire which always brings so much pressure to bear on politicians and on members of the House of Assembly to fall into a lot of statistic data. I shall therefore chiefly confine myself to dealing in outline with this great problem which arises from an analysis of our population numbers. I should like to express three desires. Firstly I trust in all modesty that this motion which is being dealt with will focus the attention of our entire nation and the appalling problems which lie in wait for us in the future, as is shown by the results of an analysis of our population numbers. I think that I can justly say that during the past few years we have been so conditioned by the influences of external factors that we have to a certain extent, and not without justification, overlooked the domestic factors. The second desire I want to express is that the discussion which will take place to-day will not as easily, as was the case in the past, deteriorate into a debate on Colour policy, and the third desire I want to express is that such suggestions as may be made here by other speakers and myself, will not summarily be labelled as unacceptable and impracticable. When we are dealing with a problem such as the population problem in South Africa, as is also the case all over the world, we are dealing with a problem which has many facets. There are socio-economic facets, there are political facets and there are also the delicate, subjective, personal facets. I do not simply accept the word “no” without further ado, and in looking at the faces of those who are sitting on both sides of the House, I think that they can be thankful that they did not accept the word “no”, otherwise most of them would never have been married. They therefore refused to accept the word “no” without further ado. Mr. Speaker, in a discussion of a population problem in South Africa as far as it concerns our White population, we must inevitably make some use of publications on the international level. In going through writings which have been published in recent times in regard to the population problem in the world, one is deeply impressed by the gravity of this problem as well as the anxiety the population problem in the world causes in the hearts of prominent persons and leading organizations. With your permission, Sir, I merely want to give a few examples of current world opinion in regard to the population problem. For instance, in a report of the population bureau in the U.S.A., a report backed by data furnished by the United Nations Organization, I read the following heading: “Seven thousand million people on earth in the year 2000.” “Mankind shudders at the year 2000,” are the words used in another report drawn up by the World Health Organization. However, what is important is the next matter which is emphasized in that report: “In cities situated in under-developed countries the position is threatening to become catastrophic.” According to them many of the people—millions—who are leaving farms to seek employment in the cities, are not prepared for city life. I mention that because I am going to repudiate it later. Here is another point made in that report: “The millions of people in cities place an untenable burden on national and municipal authorities.” “The flow to metropolitan areas is one ‘of the most serious challenges of our times’.” Another heading reads as follows: “India is no longer able to feed its millions.” Another heading, arising from a report of the World Health Organization in Geneva under the leadership of Dr. Mando, reads as follows: “There is only one doctor for every thousand in Africa. The population explosion left the training facilities far behind.” Another heading reads as follows: “Millions of people, millions of extra mouths to feed. World population increases annually by 100,000 per day. Overpopulation of Asia becomes the great problem.” Dr. Prasaat, president of the then newly established Republic of India, said the following (translation)—

In discussing the problems arising from the population increase, Sir Robert Menzies, the former Prime Minister of Australia, had the following to say (translation)—

Then I want to conclude this by quoting from a report drawn up by a committee of the UN consisting of 172 prominent persons, including 39 former Nobel prize winners—Luthuli excluded—and under the chairmanship of Sir Julian Huxley. They say that unless a balance is effected between the population of the world and its resources, there will be a dark age of misery which will lead to greater panic and the outbreak of was which will be waged in order to seize the ever-diminishing means of subsistence. In other words, there is anxiety on the world scene arising from the growing millions of people. The world is finding itself in a dilemma with a too great population pressure on the available and potential sources of food; an anxiety in regard to the socioeconomic problems which have become unmanageable owing to increasing urbanization. Violence and war is being predicted and visualized. The financial burdens entailed in meeting these socio-economic problems are becoming unmanageable and impracticable.

But in glaring contrast to what is happening on the world scene in regard to the population question, the Republic of South Africa has a too small White population. I just want to quote a few statistics. In 1965 our White population increase together with the immigration inflow into South Africa, amounted to 75,411. The Bantu population increase was 275,000 and that of the Coloureds was 53,012. According to a conservative population projection for the year 1980, the White population will consist of 4,784,000, the Bantu of 17.393,000 and the Coloureds of 2,821,000. According to a conservative population projection for the year 2000 the Coloured population will outnumber that of the Whites. But that is not the whole picture.

The White birth rate per 1,000 shows a decrease, as will be proved from what I am going to mention now. In 1958 the White birth rate was 25.2. In 1959, it was 25; in 1960, 24.8; in 1961, 24.1; in 1962, 24.1; in 1963, 23.3; in 1964, 24, and last year 22.8, as against the Coloured population increase of 46.1 per 1,000, and that of the Bantu—difficult as it is to calculate owing to many factors which make it difficult to obtain accurate statistics—of 40.1 per 1,000. The birth rate per 1,000 for urban and rural areas has undergone a complete change of pattern, and that is the crux of my whole argument. In 1951 the White birth rate per 1,000 was higher in the rural areas than in the urban areas. In 1960, the latest census figures which can be processed, the picture changed and the urban birth rate per 1,000 exceeded that of the rural areas. This is of great significance and I shall return to it presently. From these statistics, which I have quoted in the limited time at my disposal, the following irrefutable and indisputable facts arise. In the first place, the gap between the numbers of Whites and that of the Bantu is becoming wider and wider. In the second place, the gap between the number of the Whites and that of the Coloureds is becoming smaller and smaller, with the projection that in the year 2000 the numbers of the Coloureds will exceed those of the Whites; in the third place, that the numbers of the Whites, the natural increase plus immigration, can never lessen or even maintain the gap between itself and the numbers of the Bantu and the Coloureds; in the fourth p’ace, according to census figures there is irrefutable proof that we have in South Africa enough women in the most fertile years of their lives to maintain a sound birth rate among the Whites. We have in South Africa a sufficient number of women in the most fertile group, between the ages of 20 and 29, to maintain a sound birth rate. In the fifth place, it is an indisputable fact that the fertility rate among the Whites in South Africa is dropping. In 1946 there were 3.38 children per woman. In 1951 it was 3.31, and in 1960 the rate was even lower than 3.31. Another significant fact crystallizing from this is that the rural population is becoming older and that our urban population is becoming younger. That we can deduce from this change in pattern which clearly shows that the birth rate per 1,000 among the urban population is increasing over that of the rural areas when the figures for 1951 are compared with those for 1960. Surveys show that postponed marriages or delays in starting families are caused by the extensive migration of Whites to the cities and the greater vulnerability of the Whites owing to the changed manner of living and housing habits which result from being absorbed into the labour market and the change in his housing pattern through concentration in blocks of flats, and mostly compulsory occupation of flats by married couples during their most fertile years, or during the years preceding their marriages. It has also been proved through intensive surveys, which I am unable to indicate in the time at my disposal, that in regard to their considerations as far as starting a family or intentions of marriage are concerned, the Whites have to a large extent been influenced most strongly by the pressure the urbanization process has brought to bear upon them and the attendant problems in starting a family, and more intensively by the uncertainty which prevails on the international level and the greater sensitivity among the Whites as a result of financial vulnerability, coupled with considerations in regard to social standing and a secure existence. The vital question which clearly comes to the fore is in fact rooted in the change in the birth rate pattern of urban and rural populations. The fact that there is a drop in the birth rate in urban areas, in spite of the fact that urban areas are inhabited by the most fertile age groups, can lead us to no other conclusion but that the drop in the birth rate amongst the Whites, in spite of this change in the birth rate pattern, has its roots in our socio-economic problems.

That brings me to the first point I want to make in regard to everybody’s desire to look for a solution, to look for ways and means along which we can stimulate the White birth rate. In view of the phenomenon that, while the urban population is becoming younger, there is a downward trend in the birth rate. I have arrived at the conclusion that these problems which lie at the root of this trend, are purely socio-economic. That brings me to this question: Is our town-planning policy correct? Is it desirable for us to concentrate in one urban centre all business concerns and concerns which are absorbing labour? I want to mention a practical example. Here in Cape Town we have large centres. We have here the large Sanlam centre and the large building of the Trust Bank is also under construction. It may have the effect of absorbing labour, and the logical consequence of that must be that higher and higher and more and more blocks of flats will spring up, and I am saying that without malicious intent. The State is responsible for the erection of blocks of flats as well.

The question I want to ask is this: With the intensification of our socio-economic problems owing to faulty town-planning and the fact that it does not keep pace with the development of our population pattern as a whole, the question should be asked in all earnest whether there should not be much closer correlation between our Department of Social Welfare, our Department of Health and all Departments which deal with the population, irrespective of the field in which they do so, and our Department of Planning. The congested flats or boarding-houses which have such a socio-economic hold on the young members of our population, cause concern in our hearts. Is it not a fact that flat rentals are sometimes coupled with certain conditions? One may not have any children. Is it not a fact that flat occupation is sometimes coupled with an artificial rise in the cost of living? Is it not a fact that flat occupation with the attendant social problems it involves—that such people lack opportunities for making use of leisure time, in contrast to the man who lives in a house on a plot where there is a piece of land—creates social problems which lead to marriages being postponed or delays in starting families? Is it not a fact that the mistake of centralizing business centres has this evil as a logical consequence. and I want to mention it by name, the evil of occupying flats in our urban complexes? Should there not be a change of view and approach in respect of our town-planning as a whole? I am therefore advocating closer cooperation and co-ordination among the Departments of Planning, Social Welfare, Health and all Departments dealing with our population, the distribution of our population and the housing methods of our population, because to my mind this is the greatest problem, the greatest evil, which is the cause of the downward trend in our birth rate in urban areas, in spite of the fact that our urban population is becoming younger and in spite of the fact that our cities are inhabited by the most fertile group of our population.

The fact of the matter is that the development of our country in all spheres has greatly exceeded the provision of skilled labour. It has taken a firm hold and we shall be struggling with this problem for years to come. As a source of supply for the skilled labour market of the future, the numbers of our White population are far too small. We shall therefore be obliged to stimulate greater productivity of labour. It is therefore essential that our schools and our educational institutions should pointedly inculcate this necessity upon our youth. Employers and employees have one responsibility, and that is to accomplish in the interests of our present generation and of generations to come, maximum quality and volume of production by means of better methods of administration and organization in order that the effect of the numeric inferiority of the Whites may be diminished. As a practical measure I am advocating within the framework of our socioeconomic problems that our young married couples should be given free maternity services. Our Bantu are receiving those services. A Bantu woman can go to any hospital virtually without having to pay any maternity charges. I am therefore advocating that provision should be made and that it should be investigated whether it is possible for us to obtain completely free maternity services for our married couples during their most fertile years.

I want to conclude. In spite of the fact that there is a great deal of opposition to this idea, I nevertheless want to state that as a result of administrative and a legion of other factors, the door to higher education is to a very large extent closed to a great many of our intellectually gifted children in various directions. For that reason I propose that we should give earnest attention to this matter of establishing better education facilities for financially underprivileged children.

I conclude by asking the Minister of Finance whether it is not possible for us to design a system whereby married couples with two or three children may obtain a greater tax rebate, because we must remember that this decrease or drop in the birth rate in our urban areas is rooted in the socio-economic problems with which married couples have to contend. Mr. Speaker, I thank you for the attentive hearing given to my case, which I had to put in such a short space of time. I hope that in replying to this motion, my colleagues will make further contributions to this matter.

The hon. mover of the motion has set out here in considerable detail the problem which faces South Africa from the point of view of population balance and population growth, and he has gone to some trouble to do so. But I am afraid that I must say I am disappointed in what has followed from his analysis of the problems. On the other hand, I welcome this motion and support it because his motion sets out clearly what we on this side of the House have for many years been saying to the Government. Therefore, unlike the practice which is followed by the Government when we move private motions, we are not moving an amendment to this motion, but are giving it our wholehearted support. For years we have pleaded with the Government to deal with this urgent and fundamental problem of the three tripods upon which South Africa’s future depends, the building up of a strong White population, its education to the maximum of its skills and its training so that it can achieve the maximum productivity. We have given, year after year, our proposals and our suggestions for meeting these problems. Let me tell the hon. member for Carletonville that not only has he our support in pleading for a White family policy, but we are the only party which has a printed “White Policy” for the people of South Africa, a printed policy pleading for exactly these things which the hon. member so rightly asked for to-day, like maternity benefits. We went further than merely maternity benefits; we asked for housing, the same subject which the hon. member touched on and pleaded for in a different form. We asked for family allowances, a matter which the hon. member did not touch on.

We believe it is necessary to strengthen the White population. One of our other speakers will deal in more detail with our family policy. So this is not a new idea, but what is new is that we have a front-bencher of the Government joining us in our plea to give attention to these fundamental problems upon which our future depends.

I want to deal rather with one of the other two legs of the hon. member’s motion. His motion pleads, firstly, for attention to be given to education. One of the other hon. members on this side will deal with that aspect. He pleads for encouragement of the White birth rate. Another hon. member will deal with that. I want to deal with the second leg of his motion, that of productivity, because productivity is the key to the whole economic development of South Africa. More and more is it being recognized by experts in this field that productivity is not simply the State’s responsibility, and more and more is it being realized by those concerned with industry that productivity is the fundamental need of our economy to-day. I quote, for instance, Mr. Leslie Luloffs, the newly elected president of the Federated Chamber of Industries, pleading that the year 1966 should be a year—I quote—

I quote the president of the Natal Chamber of Industries, Mr. F. W. H. Stafford—

Volkshandel comes to the conclusion that productivity is not only not increasing but that taken as a ratio of net income to wages paid it has dropped between 1950 and 1960. If it is taken as a ratio of rand produced—viz. the net return—plus product value it has dropped also. In the one case it has dropped from 2.20 to 2.11, and in the other case from 1.70 to 1.54. Mr. Arthur Jordaan, chairman of the Cape Clothing Manufacturers, is concerned with the problem. And so one can go on. I have another four or five quotations here. What is the answer? It is easy to state a problem. The hon. member for Carletonville has stated the problem. He has shown the danger to South Africa. But I regret that he has not tried to give us an answer. I hope to try to deal in slightly more detailed form with proposals in this field.

The president of the National Development Foundation of South Africa six years ago—I refer to Dr. F. Meyer—used these words—

That was six years ago. Then he estimated that we required in South Africa 560,000 managers, officials and working owners, 710,000 foremen, craftsmen and kindred workers, and 550,000 technical, professional and kindred workers—182,000 specially trained people were required in South Africa. He estimated that by 1970 this figure would rise to 2,345,000 trained people in our economy. With these needs before us, known and recognized, with these requirements analysed and calculated, surely we cannot afford to sit back and let this problem drift along. We want productivity. Let us look at an industrialist setting out to start a factory in South Africa.

The first step an industrialist would normally take wou’d be to establish a suitable location where his raw materials, power, water, light, services and labour are available. Elsewhere perhaps but not in South Africa. Oh no! In South Africa you do not look for the most productive location where your services and your other requirements are available. You first have to sit down and work out how many Bantu you have to employ. Then you have to go to the Minister of Bantu Administration and say: Please. Sir, may I have these Bantu? Then you fill in a few forms and eventually he says no, you have to go to a border area. So the very basis of industrial planning, the seeking of a location suitable for the industry, and contributing towards that industry being most economically and productively sited, cannot be followed in South Africa. But having eventually got a site, what is the next thing? He then has to battle for management personnel who are not available because there is not sufficient attention given to their training and who do not want to go and work miles away in a border area. But assuming he gets those people, then he decides what machines be needs. But he cannot go and buy them. He then has to fill in an application for an import permit, and they say: “Yes, you can have this machine or that, or you cannot have any machines at all.” So again there is a delay and uncertainty. Eventually he gets an import permit. Then he starts to look for his labour and instead of saying—as any normal industrialist would do—“Right, I need labour with these skills and with these capabilities,” he first has to go and look up the Government Gazette and ask himself: What labour am I entitled to use under job reservation? What labour am I entitled to use under the Bantu influx laws, etc. And when he has sorted out what labour he is allowed to use, then he can start wondering about how effectively trained it is for his job. And in point of fact he has to take what he is given, because he applies to a labour bureau and the labour bureau allocates labour to him and he has to say: “Dankie baas.”

Then he has to get down to the problem of training his labour. But even then he cannot start producing because he has got to have raw materials. So he has got to fill in more forms, apply for more import permits and wait and see whether he can get the necessary raw materials. And eventually, having got his raw material, having started to train the labour allocated to him, he produces the product which he now wants to market. And then he goes to the Minister of Transport’s Department and he fills in more forms to the National Transport Commission asking for permission to convey his goods by road.

So, Mr. Speaker, by the time he is finished, you do not have an industrialist, but you have a form-fill-in. We are becoming a nation of fillers-in of forms. For everything you want to do you have to fill in a form. Merely to illustrate what you have got to do to get one Bantu labourer in one occupation here in Cape Town, you first of all have to read a two-page circular telling you what you can do. Having read that, you then have to fill in a form addressed to the Department of Labour, giving your name, your telephone number and what you want—an application for Coloured labour in the Cape Peninsula. You have to state your cash wages, cost-of-living allowance, hours of work, rations, housing, other benefits, leave, sick leave, school facilities and you have to mention what endeavours you have made to obtain labour.

Is the hon. member not drifting too far away from the motion?

With respect, Mr. Speaker, I am trying to point out the difficulties …

Yes. but the hon. member is drifting too far away from the motion.

With respect, Mr. Speaker, if one has to produce, management must be able to give its attention to productivity. That was the crux of my argument. I quoted that management was accepting the responsibility for productivity, and I was trying to indicate that management has so many impedimenta placed in its way that it is unable to give its attention to productivity, because before management can even get down to training its labour, these are the steps he has to take, this is the sort of work that he must concentrate on before he can even think of whether his labour is productive or not. But I will abide by your ruling, Mr. Speaker, and will not continue with the details other than to say that having failed to get, as is usually the case, the necessary Coloured labour, he then has to fill in these forms, three pages of them, each in triplicate, plus an official copy where five copies have to be made out.

Then he has his labour. Then he can start thinking about the question of whether he is productive or not. Having lost three weeks of production or four weeks of production, having lost productivity which he can never make up, he then says: Well, I am sorry, but my costs have gone up and I must put up the price of my product. Not because he is inefficient, not because his labour is not productive, but because the rules and the regulations and the red tape make it almost impossible for many industrialists in South Africa to get down to the serious problem—which they accept as a problem—that of productivity. That is why I welcome the announcement that later this year, I believe in October, a conference is to be held of top management, a conference to plan and to discuss the whole question of productivity, to plan a permanent body which will be able to advise and give aid on this problem. I have evidence which at the time at my disposal I cannot go into in detail, of the recognition by industry of its responsibility, of the steps that it is planning. The e is a committee already established, a “productivity advisory committee” under the chairmanship of Dr. F. J. de Villiers. There is this conference being called, there are other training schemes envisaged by industry and by management, with industry and management accepting its responsibility.

Management having realized its responsibility, because it is responsible, I now ask the Government to play its part in assisting industry and assisting management. Management can do nothing unless the Government plays its part, and the part which the Government has to play in this regard is firstly in the field of training.

We have had two days of debate on education. I am not going to traverse that Vote, but basic education of our leadership is something vital to the future of our economic growth and to the productivity of our industries. Unless we can produce those 2,250,000 people who will be required at the top level then we cannot hope to have the industrial future which is necessary to cater for those population problems to which the hon. member for Carletonville referred. He has recognized the problems, we have got to see that there is an answer to those problems. And so at university level, at the lower level of technical colleges, at supervisory level and in the training of labour itself, the Government must co-operate with industry and with management in creating the machinery which can give this training. It is also necessary to provide a stable labour force, a trained and stable labour force with a sound family background, with a satisfied family background, a home where they can live their normal lives, a background which makes them want to stay in their jobs, to earn more in their jobs in order to improve their position. We do not want a labour force with nothing to aim at. We want a labour force which has ambition to improve its own earning power.

We must also recognize, as industry has done, that it is not always productivity first and then increased wages, but sometimes extra productivity is encouraged by the wage structure going ahead of the productivity in order to give a spur to greater effort. But productivity will not come unless the worker has something to aim at, unless he knows that there is an object and purpose in training himself, that there will be a reward for training himself, that there will be security for him after having achieved a standard and that he will not be sent back if he loses his job because of some temporary recession—sent back to some mythical homeland—and then when he comes back be put into a completely different industry where his training is wasted. These are all aspects to which the Government must give its attention. If it fails, then the problem which the hon. member for Carletonville has mentioned will overwhelm us. I will take the matter no further than to appeal to the Government to cut the red tape, to cut the bonds which tie the productivity of South Africa, and to co-operate with management and with the entrepreneur to ensure that in this vital field every citizen of South Africa, of every race, is able to make his maximum contribution to our economy.

Business suspended at 12.45 p.m. and resumed at 2.20 p.m.

Mr. Speaker, for me the underlying problem which is being posed in this motion is a profound human problem. I do not therefore want to argue with the hon. member for Durban (Point) on the more limited political level, except to remark that I am glad that as far as the generous spirit and purview of this motion is concerned, he and his side of the House has supported it.

For my part I want to approach this debate from a slightly different point of view, which is that if we analyse the general population increase, or as I would like to call it, the unequal population increase in South Africa in all its facets, then there is one point in particular which comes to the attention immediately, and that is that in many respects South Africa’s problem is really a replica of a world problem. The days when colonization projects and journeys of discovery were launched to seek new living space are beyond recall to-day. Population density in countries such as China and Japan, for example, cannot today find alleviation in new, unpopulated parts of the world. In China, for example, the population density to-day is approximately 300 per square mile. The hungry millions of the world must be fed, however, and this food hunger remains an important motive power behind land hunger to-day. Envy, ambition, greed and all the other passions are rampant amongst the people of the world to-day. On close examination, however, Mr. Speaker, all these phenomena are expressions of overpopulation and population density, or population pressure. The White peoples of the world have learned in the past 100 years to limit their population increase with the aid of thorough family planning, but on the other hand, the non-White populations of this world have not yet acquired this pattern. France, as a highly civilized country, was the first country in Europe where the phenomenon of a decreasing birth rate first occurred, and that took place towards the end of the 18th and beginning of the 19th century. In those years the birth rate in the world was in the vicinity of approximately 40 per 1,000 per year. At that stage already it was approximately 33 per 1,000 per year in France. Since then it has decreased steadily until it is approximately 15 to-day in a country like France. Since 1870 other European countries have begun to display and follow this same pattern. In the White countries of the world the difference between the two figures to-day is relatively small, i.e. anything from between one to ten per 1,000 per year. In other words, the White population of the world is increasing by considerably less than one per cent per year. If we take the non-White populations of the world into consideration, we find that the birth rate there has almost throughout followed the centuries-old pattern, i.e. 35 or more per 1,000 per year.

Mr. Speaker, what is the reaction of the Whites in the Western countries to this world phenomenon? The Western countries reply with major aid programmes and sometimes even with quite misplaced humanity; imaginative instruction and effective projects for effective family planning is not always the first reply on the part of the Western nations. As far as their own problem of a declining birth rate is concerned, the Western nations have for the past 40 years been making sporadic attempts to push up their population figure by, inter alia, planning family allowances on a large scale. In France and in Belgium where family allowances were introduced for the first time, it has had negative results. Other drastic attempts have been made in other countries such as Italy and Germany, particularly immediately before and after the world war. Here in our own country the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development has already suggested a plan in the form of Republic babies. I do not know what results he has had.

What happened? Thousands less.

It is too soon to judge.

The wrong man made the appeal.

Now as far as this great human and worldwide problem is concerned, there are a few rays of light, particularly in regard to the non-White populations of the world, and I want to mention two examples here. In 1960 the Indian Ambassador, Mr. C. M. Changla, made a very famous speech in America, a speech which at that time caused a world-wide stir, and in that speech he told the Americans: You are coming forward to-day with major economic aid programmes for our country, but what you should really come and teach us is—as he called it then—the gospel of family regulation.

so as to spread the gospel of family regulation in our country. He stated that it was his country’s intention to cut their population increase by at least half. I want to mention another example of a country, i.e. Japan, which has to-day set an example to the non-White peoples of the world. Japan is to-day an excellent example in this respect. In 1949 Japan introduced legislation to control its population increase. Let me say at once that that is not what I am pleading for here; I am merely mentioning it as an example. That was Japan’s reply to the well-meant attempts on the part of the Americans after the war to help Japan with a form of aid programme. The American occupation forces had at that time inoculated 83,000,000 Japanese against all manner of diseases, 34,000,000 against yellow fever, 60,000,000 against typhus, 31,000,000 against tuberculosis, and had even sprayed 41,000,000 with D.D.T. The immediate result of all this misplaced humanity was that the Japanese death rate decreased from 29 to 11.1 within a year’s time. But at the same time the birth rate in Japan for the same period increased to the record figure of 34.8 per 1,000 per year. To-day Japan is the country which is setting the world an example in regard to what can be done in that respect. What is the position in South Africa at present? As I have already said, the position in South Africa is really a replica of this world picture. For many years now the White population has been practising family planning in our country, while the non-Whites have not been doing so. The average birth rate figures of the various population groups in our country over the past years were as follows. My real purpose in mentioning these figures is to supplement the figures which the introducer of the motion has already furnished. My figures are really only better figures in this respect that they cover a longer period of time. The average increase of the Whites was 25 per 1,000 per year, that of the Indians was 33 per 1,000 per year, that of the Coloureds was 47 per 1,000 per year, and that of the Bantu was something like 30 per 1,000 per year. The death rate on the other hand was: Whites 8.6, Indians 9, Coloureds 17.5 and Bantu anything between 9 and 10. The surplus of births over deaths was on an average as follows in the past ten years: Whites, approximately 16; Indians, 24; Coloureds, 29.5 and Bantu, plus-minus 17. At the moment we are spending millions of rand on better housing, better wages, better nutrition and better education in order to establish a higher standard of living for our non-Whites. Let me say at once that it is all good and well that we should do so. But there is another problem attached to that: If we analyse these figures carefully we find that we are in effect also creating a diminishing death rate whilst all the time effecting a continually increasing birth rate. All these subsistence benefits are not being enjoyed in the form of a higher standard of living, but are to a great extent still being absorbed in the form of greater numbers, particularly in respect of the Coloureds in our country.

I would like to lend my support to the motion of the hon. member and to everything which has been said here to-day, but let me add at once that this is not the sole reply to the major problem of unequal population increase in South Africa. What I am going to say now I want to say with great responsibility, for the sake of the happiness and prosperity of our population—all the sectors of the population. The time has come in South Africa for all the relevant parties and bodies, our State, our church, our medical science and our welfare organizations, to co-operate and come up with an imaginative programme of deliberate family planning, of family regulation, for all the sectors of our population. Please note, for all the sectors of our population.

Since we really have to conclude this debate with a large question mark in view of the world situation, let us rather make a great challenge of it on our part and see whether South Africa cannot come forward with such a purposeful plan of family regulation, family planning in respect of all the sectors of our population, and under our specific circumstances set the world an example in this connection. [Time limit.]

This motion calls for attention to be given to education facilities, to the productivity of our man-power and to the White birth rate against the background of our population pattern. I. like other speakers before me, welcome this motion. I think it is of great importance and this afternoon I want to confine myself to the education aspect of the motion.

Mr. Speaker, you have probably noticed that we have had quite a number of inspired speeches this Session from both sides of this House on education problems. I think it is partly attributable to the inspiration we on both sides of this House received from the ranks of the provincial councils during the recent election. I shall try not to repeat any of those points but to confine myself more particularly to the background of the man-power problem which we are experiencing in our trade and industries at present.

Let me say that the problem really is a major and urgent one, as has been emphasized to-day. The Government’s programme of economic development, even if we do have a restricted rate of growth in our economy over the next five years, envisages that we shall require 200,000 White workers more by the year 1970 than five years ago, and we shall not be able to meet that demand. There will be a shortfall of at least 50,000 despite immigration and despite all other factors such as the increase in population. Consequently this is a major problem. A number of years ago Dr. Frikkie Meyer calculated that we required 1,800,000 trained managers, specialists, professional men, scientists and engineers in South Africa, and we only had just over 300,000. Therefore our need was six times greater than the numbers we had at our disposal. Dr. S. M. Naude. chairman of the C.S.I.R., said just recently that the position at our universities was one of the most urgent problems which science had to face at the present time.

The hon. the Prime Minister admitted in 1962 at the Nationalist Party Congress at Bloemfontein that the Government had been too occupied on political and constitutional problems up to that time to have been able to give sufficient attention to scientific education. I am not mentioning this to be derogatory or critical but because I regard it as being a hopeful sign that the Government has been realizing for a number of years that a change must be effected in connection with scientific education. Last year in November the hon. the Minister of Economic Affairs said at the annual dinner of the Engineering Society (Translation)—

In this connection I think countries abroad unfortunately are more advanced in many respects. I do not blame South Africa. It was brought about by factors. In the United States 450 out of every 100,000 of the population are engineers; in South Africa there are only 50 engineers for every 100,000 of the population. In Britain 85 per cent of students attending universities graduate; in our country merely 55 per cent. Somewhere something is wrong with the training at the universities, with the encouragement given to students or with their willingness to study. In the field of research 30 dollars of every 1,000 dollars of the national income in America is spent on research; in South Africa unfortunately only R3 of every R1,000 of our national income is spent on research.

Here we have a challenge to South Africa which is not merely confined to our borders. It is a challenge to us as part of the West. What I am really concerned about in this respect is that the communist countries are at present producing many more technicians and scientists than the West, even many more than America. In Russia more engineers are trained and graduate from universities annually than in the rest of the world put together; in one communist country more graduates in engineering are produced each year than in the rest of the world. In the United States for instance the enormous number of 150,000 engineers is produced annually. That is many. However, Russia does not produce 150,000 but 400,000. Therefore whatever assistance we may be able to give, however small our country may be, in remedying this imbalance on the side of the West, is to be welcomed.

The position in our schools at present also gives rise to concern. I have mentioned the universities but there are matters in the schools which cause concern. If one bears in mind that one out of every four teachers teaching science is not qualified in the subject which he teaches, it gives rise to concern. If one sees that one out of every three teachers teaching mathematics is not qualified, then one wonders whether one’s child nowadays is really receiving the best education he ought to receive, and then one says that an endeavour should be made to find a solution to this urgent problem. Temporary teachers fill one out of every three teaching posts in schools at present. That is where our problem lies; the numbers of trained staff are too small.

There is a second problem, namely that their qualifications do not come up to the required standard in many respects. There is a lack of quality and a lack of quantity and it is the task of the authorities to try and find the answer in both respects. Here I do not want to go into the quality and quantity of non-White education for in that respect the problem is different. Bantu education at present borders between the untrained and illiterate level of education. Here I am chieflly thinking of the shortage of skilled White man-power. The problem has two aspects: There is a lack of quantity—we need more people—and quality.

It is only to a limited extent, unfortunately, that we are able to do something to achieve a sound population increase. The hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration has done his best. I personally want to express my admiration for the degree of success he has achieved when I nowadays see the number of birth notices appearing from Cape Town to Johannesburg in which everyone states: “We thank the Minister.” Therefore success has been achieved to a certain extent. But I do not think that we can find the solution in measures of that nature. Nowadays there are restricting factors which hamper one’s normal population increase, such as the fact that so many other things detract from ordinary family life. There are so many things to do apart from the ordinary raising of a family. I am not saying that it is right, but it is a factor in connection with which one will not be able to do a great deal in future.

There are women for whom much more opportunities exist nowadays to do ordinary work and this too hampers one’s birth rate. There is the high standard of living which often makes married couples reluctant to produce a large family. These are restricting factors. To a certain extent something can be done about it, but it is going to be extremely difficult to alter one’s entire pattern of living in a country in such a way that people can concentrate on larger families in the first instance. Smaller families form part of the pattern at present; the independence of women forms part of it as does the working woman.

I would be satisfied if we could once more have the birth rate which we had say immediately after the last world war. I am concerned about the fact that the birth rate is decreasing. I think that it can be increased but I do not believe that it can be increased to any unheard of degree. We can take measures such as higher family allowances, higher tax reductions in respect of children at high school and university, and more bursaries. We can make all technical training free of charge. These are all measures which will help. large-scale immigration will help and I am glad to see that the two big parties nowadays agree about the desirability of immigration. We also welcome our new South Africans but I think more encouragement should be given to them to become South African citizens because the value to our man-power pattern of an immigrant in our country who is not yet a South African citizen is only half that which it would have been if he had become a naturalized citizen of South Africa. More attention should be given to encouraging immigrants to become South African citizens so as to become a permanent part of our man-power pattern in the country.

That much about our problem as regards the quantity of our man-power, and where we are only able to do something about it to a certain extent I think that we shall have to concentrate more on improving the quality of our man-power. In this connection many good ideas have been expressed here to-day. I want to repeat a few of them and add a few of my own and then I want to leave it at that in the hope that I have been able to contribute one or two additional ideas to this debate. Our salvation as regards the improvement of the quality of our man-power is, to be found, inter alia, in matters such as the following: In the first place, more encouragement to persons to join the ranks of the teaching profession and the improvement of conditions of service; in the second place, free technical training up to matriculation; in the third place, more encouragement through bursaries and other means to a larger number of children who pass the matriculation examination to attend universities. Do you know, Mr. Speaker, that 35 per cent of our young boys and girls who pass matric in the first class do not proceed to university? That means a big loss of man-power. In the fourth place we have to see to it that the number of staff members at universities is increased in proportion to the number of students. One cannot have overcrowded classes of 100 and over as one sometimes finds at some of our larger universities, particularly as regards subjects such as mathematics and physics.

In the fifth place much more money should be spent on research. Even if we should provide eight times the amount in South Africa we provide at present, then we would merely be providing the same percentage as is spent on research in America. In the sixth place we should give more to our universities and here we must really act with vision. In Australia a commission was recently appointed under the chairmanship of Sir Keith Murray and Sir Keith Murray came up with a report which really shocked people in Australia. They said: “It is simply impossible; we can never do what he recommends.” His recommendation was that the Government’s contribution to the universities should be 12 times more than before. The interesting fact is that it was increased by 1,200 per cent, and at present we see advertisements in our South African newspapers for those in the teaching profession to take up posts as lecturers in Australia. In the seventh place we may think about the question of establishing junior colleges for providing post-matric training of one year. In the eighth place we may give attention to encouraging trade and industries and agriculture to make contributions themselves to the training of our young men. We can exempt a larger portion of such contributions from tax.

In the ninth place we can employ existing engineering scientists more fruitfully by relieving them of the many bothersome administrative duties which they have to perform. In the tenth place, make more use of timesaving methods, of time and motion studies, up to electronic computers. Number 11: Train technical staff and give them a course of two years or of 18 months; they will then be able to do much of the work which is at present being done by engineers who had to follow an expensive five-year course. Number 12: Let there be more training of man-power at the place of employment itself, at the factory or business. Not only should a person be working at such place but he should be trained there at the same time. This is happening already but I think that it is possible for this to happen on a larger scale. Number 13: Afford our technical employees or engineers already employed in factories the opportunity of following further practical courses of study at universities and pay them for the studies they undertake in their spare time or during their holidays. Number 14: Let private concerns make more use of the services of students during university holidays than is happening at present, especially students taking courses in science and engineering. Number 15: Make better use of incentive pay. Number 16: Give more recognition to the prestige and status of the scientist and the technician. There are many other things I can mention but these are just a few ideas I wanted to bring forward. Together with other hon. members on this side, I give my support to this motion.

I should like to venture into a slightly different field from that of the previous speakers. I want to point out the different attitude adopted to the question of the population increase in the Western or developed countries, compared with the underdeveloped countries. In the under-developed countries the problem has been and still is that the development of commerce and industry, food supply, etc., has not kept pace with the demands of the population increase. Mr. Speaker, every human being has three primary living requirements, namely food, clothing and accommodation, and the Oriental nations and the under-developed nations in particular are not providing for their population increase in that regard. In the Western countries matters took a different turn. Here we have the phenomenon that the very industrial development, the growth of our national economy, the improvement of our medical and other services, have all contributed towards placing restrictions on the population increase. One of the detrimental effects of our present economic and industrial development is the fact that there has been a shift of emphasis. Where in the past there was a conservative attitude to life, where there was conservatism in respect of the task of family life, that has in recent times made room for individualism and for an egoistic attitude to life, and that in turn was the direct cause of the fact that family life, as we knew it previously, has undergone a complete change and that at present we rank the interests of the individual higher than the interests of the family. These things had the direct result that birth restriction is applied on a large scale in our country and in the Western countries.

In our own country we came up against the problem that people considered that the population increase would be stepped up by means of cash allowances to families. There was also another trend, namely that we should pay larger allowances to the poor families purely in the interest of the economic existence. In the forties the previous Government appointed the Van Eck Committee to make certain recommendations with regard to social security measures, and one of the points on which this committee gave a decision was that it was not desirable to give cash allowances in the form of family allowances with a view to the population increase, because it would also have been necessary to give those to non-Whites, and that would have served to place so much more emphasis on the difference between the population increases in respect of the two race groups. Notwithstanding those recommendations the idea persisted that higher cash allowances to families would stimulate the population increase. In the early fifties the churches carried out an inquiry into the question why couples restricted the number of their children, and the finding was as follows: 15 per cent of those families said that there was no particular reason; 5 per cent mentioned psychological factors; 18 per cent mentioned physical factors; 38 per cent mentioned a variety of less important factors, and only 24 per cent said that it had to do with purely economic reasons. The general conclusion was that parents were able to restrict the number of their children of their own free will, and that none of those factors mentioned were of such a binding nature that the parents could not surmount them.

Then, because there was still the idea that more money for the poor family and more money for the small family would result in more children, this Government appointed the Piek Commission to inquire specifically into the entire question of family allowances, in order to stimulate the population increase. This commission found unequivocally that the introduction of an extensive family allowance system in order to increase the birth rate would be neither effective nor desirable. The commission also came to the conclusion that preference should be given to the expansion of existing aid schemes rather than to introduce an extensive family allowance system. The most important and also the most interesting conclusion arrived at was that the heart, the root of birth restriction, actually lay in the attitude adopted by people towards the function of family life.

I should like to conclude by pointing out that this Government then went one step further and implemented the recommendations of the Piek Commission without delay by providing in the Welfare Act for the establishment of a commission for family life. It will be the task of that commission, judging by what I have seen of its terms of reference so far, to elaborate mainly on the recommendations of the Piek Commission, and those include some of the things mentioned by the hon. member for Carletonville, and also by other members, as possible solutions to our problem. We want to congratulate the hon. the Minister for Social Welfare on having acted so speedily to set this commission to work.

There is something else I want to mention in the time I still have available. That is, namely, the role to be played by the Department of Planning. We were told that this Department rested on three pillars, namely economic, physical and scientific. Interested as I am in the humanities, I was disappointed that it was not stated explicitly that this Department would also have some task or other with regard to the humanities. Later, however, I realized that the task of this Department was mainly to collect facts and then to plan on the basis of those facts. Other departments are drawn in with the object of inducing them to implement certain matters. The Department of Planning, which also has the Bureau of Statistics at its disposal, not only has to collect cold population statistics, but also has to interpret them. Where the Department cannot interpret such data because the data relate to a field outside its jurisdiction, there has to be very close co-operation, for example with the Family Commission of the Department of Social Welfare—the commission which was established mainly to concern itself with family planning. If we consider the median age of the various race groups, and also if we note the dependent groups, i.e. those under 15 and those above 60 years, groups that are unproductive, then the Department of Planning has a duty to co-operate with the Department of Social Welfare in order to be able to implement the recommendations of the Piek Commission.

During the short time at my disposal I will endeavour to confine my remarks to that aspect of the motion, brought in by the hon. member for Carletonville, dealing with population. Listening to the hon. member introducing his motion, I gained the impression that he was rightly concerned at the slow rate of progress in so far as our White population was concerned. Unfortunately he placed the emphasis upon the disparity between the White population and the non-White population. If I have misunderstood him, I apologize but it seems to me that his emphasis was on the disproportion and the widening gap between the White population and the non-White population. This is an important point. How we are going to restrict the one and stimulate the other is the problem that is facing us. I shall not now go into the restriction part of it because that is a complicated subject and requires a lot of discussion. Furthermore, probably it will be one of the most important facets of life later on.

The position is that we in South Africa have a small White population in a rich country. That is in our favour. I feel that because that is so we still have time on our hands to plan for the future. We still have time to draw up a blueprint to provide for the needs of young married couples. Here I refer to those things which count with the ordinary young married couple. We still have time to build for them. We can have all sorts of commissions sitting, we can talk here all the time and outside as well but basically what does it amount to? A couple get married and they want children. We must make no mistake about it that they do want children. There are, in fact, very few married couples in this country who do not want children. At first thought they do not think, when they bring their child into the world, whether or not that child is going to enjoy free university education. That is not the point that worries them. What then is causing delays in having a child? During my lifetime I have been in and out of the homes of many young married people and I have spoken to them about it. I have asked them over and over again why they did not want to have a child because that would make them feel better and make them happy. Invariably the reply was that they were living in a flat and that they could not afford a house. Now, this flat consists of a bedroom, a small living room, a bathroom and a small kitchen. So if they brought a child into the world, they would have to have a place for bringing up the baby. In a flat there are no facilities for drying the napkins, and there is no backyard in which to wheel the baby, the bottles have to be heated on the gas ring and the mother may have to go out working again because her husband is not earning sufficient at the moment. “If I am going to have a baby, can I afford to stay away from work during the last three months of my pregnancy?” she would ask. These are the things that count to them. I notice the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration having a smirk on his face. Let me tell him that popular demands do not count when it comes to the question of having babies. An appeal together with a sentimental outburst does not appeal to young married couples. Since the hon. the Minister made his appeal for a baby from each married couple for the Republic what has been the result? I took the trouble to get the relevant figures. Well, I must say the hon. the Minister is not a good publicity agent for this country or otherwise people do not listen to him at all. What did I find? I found that in the year we are discussing although there was an overall increase in population through immigration, the number of babies during that period fell by almost 1,000. Well, I am not going to flatter the hon. the Minister by stating that that is so because of his appeal but what I want to point out is that this took place during a time when we thought we were in a boom period when money was freer and it was possible for a couple to buy a pram without having to get it on hire-purchase terms. But despite this boom period there was a reduction in the number of births.

So we have to go into the ways and means of giving the young married couple a little more security and a little more basic comfort. I agree with the hon. member for Carletonville that we can plan for the future now. He rightly stated that we were allowing far too many flats to be built in our country to-day. That is all right, of course, for those who have already brought up their families but for those who are starting to bring up a family a little more than a flat is needed. For that they have to have a little home So we have to plan villages and not in the form of a sub-economic housing scheme. Rather, we have got to have garden villages for these people. You do not have to have a great big home. As a matter of fact, the same living room, the same bedroom, the same kitchen and the same bathroom you have in a flat can be built separately only with a little garden attached. You do not need to have a large orchard in your backyard, but a small little garden will suffice. We do not want to bring up a population who have to live in cafés. That is what we find overseas. That we do not need. We all know that overseas on account of the congestion and the smallness of the apartments in which people live they have to do their entertaining outside their homes. That is why they have to live in cafés and in the coffee shops. You can see them there night after night, sitting there and talking, with, in many instances, little children with them. That we do not want here. Here we still have open space and we must make use of it So if we are going to ask our people to bring children into the world let us now plan so that the children will be able to be brought up in a little bit of comfort.

I should like to suggest that a maternity allowance be given to those people earning a wage which brings them into line with those people needing assistance. It will almost be a sort of means test. People earning, say, up R6,000 per annum should be given a maternity allowance for their first two children. I say “for the first two children” for the reason that when a young married couple have their first baby the earnings of the husband is at a certain level. However, if he is diligent in his work, applies his mind to it and produces as we would like him to, then his wages will automatically go up as the years go by. Therefore by the time they are having their second child he should be earning more than he earned when they had their first child. Up to and including the birth of their second child, therefore, the young married couple should be entitled to a maternity grant. The second point is that he should be compelled, as we are being compelled today to have a portion of our wages deducted for income tax purposes, etc., to have a certain portion of his wages taken off to be put away as a sort of nest egg which can be drawn upon later when their children have to go for higher education. When the child gets to the age of, say, 18 years, the money thus put away should be able to see the child through university. It will then not be necessary for the State to provide free university education.

Furthermore, the man himself would feel that he is contributing for the education of his own children. It is not necessary for him to put away a large amount. It need only be a small amount which he can put away over the long period of time. Then there are the many small things required by a married couple when they are going to have their first baby. I do not say these things should be given to them because giving is not always good. These things should, however, be obtainable for them at a much reduced price, much less than the price you have to pay for them to-day. There are a lot of things required by a young married couple when they are going to have their first baby. Hon. members should go back in their own lives and they will recall that that is so. There is the matter of clothes for the newborn, the pram, the bottles, the feeding, and all that sort of thing. We find that the ordinary wage-earner cannot afford these things to-day. At least, he has great difficulty in doing so and can only do so by going without other things. You will find that a young married couple will have to deprive themselves of a fair amount of entertainment. They have to do that in order to provide the necessaries for their baby. Thus it happens that the husband and the wife often find that they get bored with one another because they are always in one another’s way in a cramped up little space. When living in a flat, you cannot expect the husband to go for a walk in his backyard when he and his wife have had a little argument. He has to stay put with her in that room they are living in. And what happens then? It boils up very nicely and soon they are throwing the bottle at one another instead of giving it to the child. These are things that are often taking place. Fortunately they are not important but what is important is that a married couple should have space in which to breathe freely. That is why I cannot do otherwise than to endorse what the hon. member for Carletonville has said, namely that we should have better facilities for bringing up our children. Furthermore, there should be a cheaper way of bringing children into the world than is the case to-day. These free maternity hospitals should not be looked upon as places of charity. We must get away from that point of view. You may have two young ladies working in an office together and both of them are going to have babies. The one goes into a free hospital and the other one into a posh maternity home. Immediately there is established a difference in class between these two individuals. So I should like to see those maternity homes which cater for the less prosperous being brought up to such a standard that there would not be this class distinction between two people who are normally living on the same level. This is the kind of thing which happens, unfortunately, only too often. I have heard young women saying that unless they could get something better than that which was offered they would not go into that nursing home to have a child. It may be a small thing but it is small things like this which are to-day preventing young married people bringing children into the world. There are, of course, more important things but these are the little things which I have come across in my own life. Although they may be small, they are to me much more important than people sitting on commissions and discussing the whys and the wherefores without being able to implement their findings. Perhaps the hon. Minister could tell me how many of the Piek Commission’s findings he has been able to implement. Which young married couples to-day know about Dr. Piek and his commission? The whole thing is hypothetical. It is something which did take place, reports were brought forth but what has happened as a result of that commission to make things easier for the young married couples of our country? Until we can solve these small difficulties and unless we can make this place a happier place in which to bring children so long will we be faced with the problem of a falling birth-rate. Therefore I want to ask in all sincerity that the Government should put its hands into its pockets and provide maternity grants and make sure that the minimum number of our women go to work when they are pregnant.

It must be made possible for them to stay at home prior to and for a year after the confinement. This must be made possible for them without their having to be faced with financial difficulties. The husband must have security in his work and both of them should be assured of a little bit of pleasure and enjoyment. This is of more practical value than all the hypothetical things which we have discussed over and over again inside and outside this House. These things may be looked upon as ideals but the practical things must come through the help of the Government.

I want to congratulate the hon. member for Carletonville on the introduction of this motion. By introducing it the hon. member has drawn the attention of the public anew to certain factors which are most certainly determining in the existence and development of our White civilization here in South Africa. I also want to convey my appreciation to hon members on both sides of the House for their constructive contributions in this regard. As embodied in the motion, the discussion dealt with a few necessities, necessities on which there is general agreement. In my view it is a good thing that those necessities should be discussed once again on an occasion like this, in order that one may not see only the role of the State in their implementation, but may also emphasize the attitude of the public to them. Without the co-operation of the public the wishes expressed here will remain fairly fruitless. For the past two days we have already had a debate on education matters in this House, and I therefore do not intend taking up the time of the House again by discussing the provision of education facilities, an aspect which is also embodied in this motion, but I just want to summarize the whole matter by means of one fact. It was mentioned here that we should provide education facilities for the less-privileged in particular, perhaps with a view to the fact that it may be an important contributory factor towards effecting a higher birth-rate. We should have due regard for the fact that we have free education in this country to a large extent. Consequently free education is in fact available to the less-privileged. We should take into consideration that our White school-going population has increased tremendously over the past ten years. I believe that whereas there were 616,000 children at school in 1955, the number had grown to 730,000 by 1963. That that was the case, is attributable to the facilities already in existence. In four years, i.e. from 1960 to 1964, the number of matriculation pupils increased by 10,000. I do not want to take up the time of the House by an account of the numerous expenses incurred for the provision of education facilities, e.g. facilities for higher education. for technical education, building of technical schools, establishing new universities, making available bursaries and loans, and so forth. If one takes all these into consideration, one must come to the conclusion that it is a matter of serious concern to this Government to provide more and better education facilities. How much in earnest the Government is in this regard, should be clear to all, and I am therefore not going to elaborate on that.

I now want to come to the question of the birth-rate. There have been expressions of concern about the so-called population explosion, which is purported to be posing a threat to the world, particularly as regards the non-White Oriental countries. In contrast with that there was the concern about a decreasing birth-rate in White countries. To South Africa, which has a very small White population, it is of course a matter of grave concern. It is a consideration that lies at the root of our existence. But the fact that we are at present still only slightly more than 3,500,000 Whites, is attributable to various factors. The wars we had in the past took their toll of our population; in addition we have had several epidemics, for example the influenza epidemic. But apart from these major events, there have been social changes that had a great deal to do with the matter. In this regard the hon. member for Carletonville mentioned quite rightly the ever-growing concentration of the population in our cities. Concomitant with that there is the erection of many blocks of flats. That has certainly had an important effect on the birth-rate among our Whites. People are restricted by that. In that regard I also want to say, however, that we should take care to view matters in the correct perspective. While it is true that the birth rate in our country as regards Whites dropped from 25.2 per 1,000 in 1958 to 22.8 in 1965, we still have one consolation. Not that it should be a source of satisfaction to us, but it is to some extent a consolation that it is not only in South Africa that the birth-rate among the White population has decreased, because judging from information I have obtained in respect of other countries, there has also been a decrease in the birth-rate in Australia, Canada, Denmark, Holland and Sweden. I do not consider it necessary to give you the exact figures now, but the fact of the matter is that in the years in respect of which I have the information, i.e. 1953 to 1957, there was also a decrease in the birth-rate among the Whites of those countries. Of those White Western countries there are only two with a higher birthrate than that of the Whites in South Africa. They are Canada, with a birth-rate of 24.9 per 1,000 and New Zealand, with a birth-rate of 24.8. Then there are quite a few of those Western countries with a birth-rate which is much lower than ours. There is Denmark, with a birth-rate of 17.1; Western Germany, with 16.5; Holland, with 21.3; Sweden, with 14.7; Spain, with 20.7; Switzerland, with 17.4; and the United Kingdom with 16.

What is the figure in respect of France?

I think it is 15. One of the hon. members mentioned that earlier in this debate. To some extent it is therefore a consolation to us that although our birth-rate has decreased, it is at least not the lowest among the Western nations. Nevertheless, one should like to see something done in this regard. No wonder, therefore, that my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration, made that appeal of his. He thought every bit would help.

And yet the figure has dropped.

I think we should wait for the statistics. Perhaps the hon. member for Durban (Point), who has been so objective of late, will find a reason for objectivity in that as well. But to come back to this motion, I want to say that on such an occasion one is compelled, particularly if one is speaking on behalf of the Government, to point out what the Government is doing in this regard. In order to review the Government’s share in this matter, one should see the measures taken by the Government to provide better living conditions as one of the duties resting upon the Government if it wants to increase the birthrate of its population. If we consider what the Government has done in the past years to provide better accommodation facilities, we shall find that since 1948 we have spent R400,000,000 on housing for Whites. If we put together all the houses that have been built by means of Government funds since 1948. we would have two cities, each one as large as Pretoria. That is how many houses for Whites we have built since 1948. I therefore consider that the Government has done a great deal in this field. If one also remembers that we have succeeded in bringing about a standard of living here which is among the highest in the world, then it also redounds to the credit of the Government, and then it is clear that the Government for its part is doing all it can. I am not going to elaborate now on the fact that there is no unemployment or any other restricting factor! That is known to all of you. I should rather refer to the plea that has been made for maternity benefits. As hon. members know, the maternity benefits payable in this country at present are payable from the Unemployment Insurance Fund. Now consider that last year maternity benefits to the amount of approximately R300,000,000 were paid to 27,000 women. That is something which should be taken note of, and which merits appreciation. Women working in shops and offices are also entitled to similar benefits in terms of the legislation relating to them. Taking everything into consideration, it may be said that the Government is already doing a great deal in this regard.

The hon. member for Carletonville pointed out the desirability of taking those large urban planning schemes into review, particularly with a view to the effect on the birth-rate. At the same time the hon. member pleaded for free maternity services for Whites, i.e., just as there are for non-Whites. In this regard I want to mention that the Bureau for Social and Educational Research is going to conduct an inquiry into the numbers of families. I want to express the hope that that inquiry will also cover the aspects mentioned here by the hon. member, namely the effect of urban planning, the provision of free maternity services, etc. In any event, I am not in a position to give a decision on that matter now. But as regards the Government’s share in this regard, I just want to say that on the part of the Government these economic means, those housing means, have already been employed. But a discussion of a motion like this is good and essential, because it brings it to the notice of the public that it is to a large extent a human factor and that it requires the correct attitude on the part of the public.

I am in a hurry to come to the third leg of this motion, labour productivity. In this regard I can also only say that no matter what the Government is doing in this respect, and may do in future, it remains essentially a matter of human factors. If one wants greater productivity, that people should work more and produce more, many things may be done through Government channels to make it possible. But in this regard the first and the last word remains the attitude of the worker in that particular job. If he shows no inclination to work more, if he does not feel like working more, if he does not have the loyalty to do so, neither a team of oxen nor a machine-gun will force him to do so. One should always bear that in mind. While the attitude of the worker is of such fundamental importance in the question of productivity, it is essential that the employers should see to it at all times that they provide the workers with working conditions of such a nature that those workers feel the urge to give their best. They should see to it that the working conditions are such that the workers enjoy the necessary security, protection and encouragement to give their best. On the part of the Government we may also make a contribution, and we do that. We can assist in the matter of choosing a vocation by getting a man into the right kind of job and not letting him do work for which he has no aptitude. What is being done in that field has been mentioned repeatedly in this House, and I am not going to elaborate on that; what we are doing in the Department of Labour to carry out aptitude tests and how many thousands of tests are carried out every month, I am not going to mention here, because that should be known to everybody. Through Government channels we may also introduce incentive wages. Those were introduced years ago by Minister Schoeman, when he was Minister of Labour, firstly to prevent an industrial council agreement from becoming valid if it prohibited incentive wages; in other words, it should be possible for all workers to bargain for incentive wages. That system was introduced and is producing good results, but I want to appeal to workers and employers today to make more extensive use of the system of incentive wages. I fear that although the system has much to its credit and has produced very good results where it has been applied, it is not applied to an adequate extent in this country. I really want to appeal to the concerns involved to effect the necessary improvements. On our part we can only make it statutorily possible, but once again the attitude of the workers must be such that it can be employed.

I am in a hurry to conclude by saying the following, that as regards greater productivity, we nevertheless also have cause for contentment, as I said just now with regard to the birth-rate, though not reason to be self-satisfied. Last week I asked the Bureau of Standards to determine to what an extent our productivity has increased or decreased in recent times. I have just received the information from the Bureau of Standards, and it indicates that according to the national per capita income we have had an increase of 19 per cent in respect of the national per capita productivity in the short period of five years from 1960 to 1965. That is an increase that amounts to 3.5 per cent per annum over those five years. But what is significant is that if it is calculated over a longer period, from 1948 to 1965, the increase was only 2.6 per cent. In the past five years the increase has therefore been higher on the average than over the longer period. The increase may be attributed mainly to the better utilization of our labour resources, the matters to which other members and I referred to in this debate. Our endeavours to provide better facilities have therefore borne fruit, and the workers’ response in this regard has borne fruit, for which one may be grateful. But as I said, that should not give us cause to lapse into self-satisfaction, for although our growth-rate is higher than that of the U.S.A, or the United Kingdom, it is still lower than that of Western Germany or Japan. I think in the interest of maintaining a high standard of living it remains essential for us in this country to maintain that higher productivity in every field. I therefore want to appeal not only to the employers, but also to the workers themselves, to endeavour at all times to show that higher productivity, not only with a view to higher incomes for themselves, and not only to have a higher standard of living, but in order to be able to maintain our security in this country. Higher productivity is one of the strongest weapons at our command, to maintain our security. I therefore make this appeal. Then we may perhaps also be able to say what was said to me years ago by one of the Swiss Ministers, when I spoke very highly of the Swiss capacity for work: “Yes, our strength and our security lie in labour”. It is my wish that that shall also be true of South Africa.

Bearing in mind that a private motion, as usage has shown, serves the purpose mainly of bringing a matter of current interest to the notice of public opinion by means of the Press, and directly to the notice of the Government in this House. I trust that after the discussion that took place here to-day, the matter may confidently be left in the hands of the Government for future consideration and planning. I therefore request—

Agreed to.

In moving the motion which stands in my name and which reads—

I want to bring to the notice of this House the conditions under which the Coloured community finds itself at the present moment. I hope to be able to make some suggestions and some recommendations. I believe that when I have finished this House will at least realize that the position of the Coloured community has become intolerable. If I were able to continue with the debate which has just closed, I would say, that the speeches could very well have been directed to the motion which stands in my name, because we have just dealt with one section of the community, the Whites, whereas I want to deal with the other South Africans, the Brown ones. The position with them from an economic point of view is, that they have great difficulty in finding ways and means of making a living, within the framework of the policy enunciated by the Government and put into effect by way of its laws. I do not wish to be controversial this afternoon. I want to be constructive, because the Coloured community realizes that their powers in regard to representation in this Parliament are not only limited but considerably restricted. It is also small in number. So the Coloured community finds itself having to face the problem, of how to advance its interests, and where. The Government says that we shall have separate development or “aparte ontwikkeling”. Immediately, the response by the Coloured community is: Where is this to take place? Where is the terrain or the land on which they are to develop separately? They are also told, that in their own sphere the sky is the limit. They also ask, which is the sky? I want to admit and concede that the Department of Coloured Affairs has done a considerable amount for the Coloured community, and that the Department intends to extend its scope. But, anyone concerned with the welfare of the Coloured community, and anyone, who works among them, realizes that the speed of the development of that Department is far too slow, and that we have to have considerable acceleration in the carrying out of a programme, which will put the Coloured man on a footing equal to, pari passu, or marching with the White man in every sphere of the economic life of this country. I chose my words in this motion with great care because I want the House to consider the advisability of appointing a commission. My reason for that is, that I would like the House to look at this problem objectively.

The Group Areas Board has been responsible for demarcating urban areas and giving all Coloured communities, in every town and village, an area in which to live. The fact that that particular area is almost without exception the worst possible ground that a community could be expected to live upon, is beside the point. I simply quote that as a fact.

It is not a fact.

It is a fact. I do not want to argue, but I can take you to 20 or 30 places in the Cape Province, which will shake you Let it be conceded that the Department of Housing has built 25,000 houses for the Coloured community over a number of years. One sees them standing in rows. These houses are all 2-roomed buildings, with no ceilings and no floors and no inside doors, and the man, his wife and his children, whether they be adolescent boys or girls, or minor children, must live together in one room, and sleep together on the floor with no prospect of getting any better place, and they are condemned to those conditions for years and years. Hence the use of the word “intolerable”. The man of the house in the country towns has no prospect of any work. Most of them come off the farms because of the droughts or because the harvest is finished, and find themselves gravitating to the towns in the Karoo and on the platteland. They cannot get a house in town because they have not lived there for the requisite number of months, and so they are put back on the road. They have no prospect of a job. Every town council is faced with the problem, and will tell you that they do not know what to do. So we find ourselves with this lost community on the platteland. The educational facilities are poor. I will not use condemnatory words; I will simply say they are poor. I have it on good authority from the headmaster of a school only a few days ago, that of 400 children entering the baby class, only 16 reach Std. 6. When they, the teachers, ask for compulsory education they are told that if it were compulsory parents would have to pay. The White man gets it for nothing. He is told that if he had a job he would be able to pay, but because he has not got a job he cannot pay.

And so, this dreadful frustration and inertia depresses and sinks down upon the Coloured community, a lost community. Mr. Speaker, the figure for Coloured persons aged between 25 and 30 who have passed Std. 5 is only 400 per 1,000. We speak about a shortage of manpower. Here are thousands of men and women, uneducated, illiterate, living amongst us and with us, South Africans—iust as good South Africans as we are—just a little browner. They attend the same churches. They speak the same languages. And. Sir, I think that they have the same background, the same culture. They love the same things and they respect the same things. But they are condemned to this life which has been their lot. Now, what is the reaction of the Coloured man? The reaction of the Coloured man is this. If we are going to have apartheid, let us have it, but let us have it properly, fairly and squarely. He says that he does not mind being on his own. but he wants the same opportunities; he wants access to the same trades, callings and professions. as his White brother. He is not satisfied to remain in a state of illiteracy with no prospects of a future for himself nor any prospects for his children. Sir, he is deeply humiliated. When he goes into businesses which are conducted by White persons, he is finding himself faced with a situation, where, even there, we have separate doors through which the Coloured man must enter if he wishes to purchase goods. He finds, to his alarm, that in the Free State a team of Free State Provincial Administration officials is investigating the feasibility of introducing apartheid in all business concerns, and shops in the province. This is what has been resolved by the provincial council of the Free State, namely, that the Executive Committee be requested to consider the desirability of amending the Consolidation Ordinance of 1949 in such a way, that a licensing board shall have the power to refuse a licence, if a business concern in a White township or town which provides for White and non-White customers fails to establish separate serving facilities. The Coloured man does not mind having the separate serving facilities. But, he says, that if there are people—and there might be, because the Government is in power because of that policy—who want to be served at a separate counter, well and good, but then the Coloured man also says that he too wants to be served by his own people behind the counter for him. That is the first opening which I hope the hon. the Minister will investigate and explore, and which will be one of the terms of reference of the Commission which I recommend. In all these businesses which subscribe to the principle that there shall be separate facilities—in other words, divided counters—the Coloured person or non-White person must have his own people behind the counters serving him. If however, this proposition is not accepted then the time has arrived that those particular businesses should be prohibited from selling goods to Coloured persons. Then the Coloured person can develop in his own township, with his own people, in his own shops with his own counters, and making his own arrangements. The profits must come to him. Mr. Speaker, here in Cape Town and other parts of the country, one sees large departmental stores, backed by factories and selling at cut prices, competing with the small Coloured trader who is restricted to his township as a small general dealer. The big shops are literally swarming with non-Whites. The Free State people do not mind taking money from the Coloured people; they are quite happy to do that. They do not even mind spending the profit. Their consciences are somewhat dull when it comes to the origin and source of their profit. They want to humiliate the Coloured community with this type of legislation. No Coloured man can accept that, Sir, without a tremendous amount of reservation and disappointment, and without saying to himself. “Has the time not come when we should retaliate?”. Therefore, before we get to a state of retaliation, I ask the hon. the Minister responsible for the Department to see to it, that Coloured people are not subjected to these humiliations. One goes into Government buildings, into post offices right throughout the country—especially in the Cape Province, with which I am familiar—one goes into the receiver of revenue’s office, the post office … I want to acknowledge that the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs and the Postmaster General wrote me a letter and said that they were training people to work in their own townships. But that, Sir, is not the problem. The problem is, that the larger numbers of the customers in the post offices in the White business centres, are non-White people. They are Coloured people, and Africans. They always have the smaller portion of the counter allocated to them. They too, are beginning to ask when the day will come, when they will have their own people behind the counter, serving them. Because, they say, then they will begin to develop. They say, “We will have separate development; we will have economic progress; our people will get good jobs, they will get better jobs, and they will be more efficient.” So, Mr. Speaker, the theme of my remarks is that in the Cape Province as a start—because this is the home of the Coloured man. and here in the Western Province in particular …

I thought it is the Free State.

The Free State are the people who are talking about this legislation. When the Transvaal hear about it, I would hate to see how fast the Cape people will chase after them. I do not want to be put off by a lot of cheap jibes and interjections, Mr. Speaker. This is a serious matter from the Coloured man’s point of view. There are literally thousands of these people pushed around and humiliated on every occasion and around every corner. They are the targets; they carry the whole weight of the Government’s legislation. Within the framework of that policy, their attitude is, “Let us take the Government up on apartheid and say, ‘Get on with it now. Let it be fair. Let it be reasonable. We, in return will be prepared to do our fair share, as we always have done.’ ” But when I say “fair and reasonable”, Mr. Speaker, I do not mean that the Coloured man is to be told that, at Bonteheuwel, he can develop, or that he can develop in any other little township in the Karoo. It has been said, that, because of the fact, that the preponderance of people in the Western Province are Coloured, that if there is to be a homeland, this is where it should be. The Coloured man is too sensible to press that point of view. He realizes that his African brothers are getting a better deal and that he is getting a shabby one. He recognizes that. He is convinced that the opportunity is there for his improvement and he wants that opportunity. I have referred before to the lack of opportunity for Coloured people in the fishing industry. I have referred to the lack of opportunity for the Coloured people in the diamond industry. We talk about a ship-building industry. Surely the persons who should be trained are the Coloured people? I do not have to tell the House of the difficulties Coloured people experience in having their children, their boys and girls, apprenticed, to have them learn a trade. I wonder if this House appreciates that the Apprenticeship Act makes no discrimination, and for that it is a good Act. But, let anybody try to apprentice a Coloured boy or Coloured girl in any industry where certain White elements are the journeymen, who have to do the teaching, and the instruction of these people. Then see what happens. The Coloured man to-day is seriously affected. He is beginning to wonder whether he belongs. He tells you that within the metropolitan areas, out of 331,000 Coloured people, 330,000 speak Afrikaans. They are our people. They wonder why are they the objects of the type of thing that is being done to them today.

The points I wish to make for my Commission to investigate are, firstly, education, secondly, training, and thirdly, opportunity. The hon. the Minister of Transport has from time to time told us that he has taken on more people in the railway service. I often wonder whether this House realizes—and I am sure it does—that in other parts of the world, Coloured people do the highest jobs in the railways. They drive the locomotives. They sit in the guard’s van. They take the tickets. I do not want to be told, Mr. Speaker, that it is the intention of the Government to do these things in connection with trains in the Coloured townships, because. Sir, a not very close examination of any main-line train will show that the first four or five coaches all have Brown faces looking out of the windows. They, the Brown ones, often ask, “When do we have a Brown driver, or a Brown man in the van?”

I am not going to go into the field of defence. because. Sir, the Coloured man does not want to fight anybody, although he makes a good soldier, when he does decide to do so.

In the educational field we find, that, in the Cape Province, there are only six small primary schools which have compulsory education. It might do the House good, Sir, to hear where they are. There is one, a small section of a school in Kimberley called the William Pescod Primary. There is the Simonstown Primary. There is the Cradock Carinus Primary. In Alice we have the Alice Primary. In King William’s Town there is the Wilfred Scott Primary, and we have the Douglas Ross Primary School at Keiskammahoek. These are the six small schools having compulsory education for Coloured children in the Cape Province. They are for children between the ages of seven and fourteen years. To say now that there is no money is no argument. I submit. Sir, that if we can find R258,000,000 for defence, and I concede that it is necessary, and that the Government knows what it is doing, surely we can find a few millions to introduce compulsory education for this great mass of people who are roaming around. The hon. member for Wynberg said they were feckless, without any education, they who live in these pondoks, these two-roomed houses with the water-pipe 500 yards down the road, unable to bath and wash. Then we criticize them for being dirty! Surely it is our function and our mission in life to see that those people are uplifted and to give them an opportunity and not to drive them into these small townships and expect them to trade there. I know, Sir, that the Government has the Coloured Development Corporation. But it is totally inadequate. The proper process, Mr. Speaker, is that organized commerce and industry, the sakekamers, must be told by the authorities that they must find opportunities in their businesses for a percentage of Coloured persons. In the United States during the war, they were faced with a crisis and needed to introduce certain classes of workers, artisans, and skilled men at various levels. They tackled the problem scientifically. It is 20 years since I listened to a lecture on that, Mr. Speaker, but there is no shadow of doubt that the problem can be tackled. It must be tackled at Governmental level with the help of organized commerce and industry, with employers, employees’ unions, and employers’ organization. The last thing that the Coloured person wants is to deprive any White person of his job. He does not want any employer to throw a White man out of his job and employ him, the Coloured person, at a lower rate of pay. The Coloured man says, “I want equal pay for work of equal value.” These are all matters which can be regulated, and which should be regulated, and which are being regulated by the hon. the Minister of Labour. The legislation is there; all that is lacking is the will.

So, Mr. Speaker, the essence of what I have said to-day is this. I would like to see the Coloured man and woman introduced into commerce, trade and industry at all levels, on a basis and under a system scientifically organized. which will cause no harm to himself nor injury to the European. And the harm to himself is this: I am not suggesting that he should be handed a great, new, big, fat pay packet. That is not my intention at all, because that can do harm to him. There is also the fact that when he is brought into a business, a trade or an industry as a skilled person it can cause friction with White workers. These things happen.

I therefore suggest that the hon. the Minister give serious consideration to my proposition. That is why I ask that a commission should look into it, my main reason being that a commission will be impartial, and will not have to take into consideration the political aspects of whatever is done while it deliberates. I make the appeal that the time has come for the Coloured man to share in the wealth and opportunities in this country with adequate wages, to enjoy an education equal to that of any other group, to have access to a university or universities of the highest possible kind, and to take his place and to share in that which is our lot and which is our inheritance.

On behalf of this side of the House I want to move the following amendment to the motion of the hon. member for Karoo—

I have listened to the hon. member for Karoo and I want to give him credit for the fact that he at least outbid the Progressives to-day, and right at the outset I want to say the following: There was a motion by the Progressives in the Provincial Council this week, that medical doctors in the service of the Provincial Council—Whites as well as Coloureds—should receive equal salaries, and on that occasion the United Party representatives in that Council joined the Government in voting against it. The hon. member for Karoo got up here this afternoon, presumably as a member of the United Party, and suggested and pleaded, contrary to the policy of his party and to the decision of the United Party, for the rate for the job. I therefore want to say this afternoon that I do not think much of the speech made by the hon. member. It was on the level of a soap-box speech, and of the election campaign which awaits him. I can understand his anxiety, but I think that as a reasonably responsible person he may at least, to be fair, have rendered account of what has been done for the Coloured population through the years with the very object of promoting their participation in commerce and industry in South Africa. To me he appears to be a true Rip van Winkel, who has apparently slept for 20 years. If he had got up in the year 1946 and had made this speech under that dispensation, I think he would have been fairly correct, because the United Party was in power then; then the Coloured population lived in the slums of White cities; then they had no share in commerce and industry in South Africa. To-day matters are considerably different. I therefore want to leave the hon. member at that, and I want to begin by saying that no economic structure can be established precipitately, nor can the economic progress of the Coloured population come about and be realized precipitately or that economic structure be built from the top. In other words, it is up to the Coloured population to use and exploit the opportunities put at their disposal systematically, to build up capital for themselves, to gain knowledge and skill and management responsibility, and then to build a sound future for themselves on that foundation, a future that will rest on a broad base. If we note the work done by the Government, particularly by its Department of Coloured Affairs, over the past years, and the work which is still being done, then it is clear that the Government is in fact laying such a broad foundation for socio-economic development which will make stable growth and progress possible for the Coloured population. That is what the Government is doing systematically and purposefully, and which it will not be prevented from doing, despite what the hon. member had to say here this afternoon. I regret that someone in a responsible position can be so blind to the facts.

Arising from our amendment, I want to say something first of all about what the Government is doing with regard to the planning of Coloured education and the expansion of education facilities. If one takes the annual report of the Department of Coloured Affairs for the year ended 31st March, 1965, one will find in it a whole list of new education buildings, and I refer in particular to high schools erected to raise the educational standard of the Coloured population, and to place them on a level of intellectual development and knowledge which will enable them to participate to an increasing extent in our country’s economic activities. In that time a high school was planned and built at Graaff Reinet, the Klein Drakenstein Primary School at Paarl, the Bellville South High School at Bellville, the High School No. 2 at Elsies River, the Wellington High School, the Bonteheuwel Secondary School No. 3, the Windermere High School, Cape Town, the Uitenhage High School, etc. If one had not listened attentively to the hon. member, one would have thought that there were only six tiny schools for the Coloured population in the entire country. He emphasized that point so strongly that it would not surprise me to read in an overseas paper to-morrow that there are only six tiny schools for the Coloured population in our country. Why emphasize that point so strongly, why represent the matter as though educational facilities for the Coloureds are inadequate? We admit that not all the school buildings are as desired. There is a tremendous building programme. But did not our own people use simple farm houses and even outhouses and all kinds of small buildings only a few years ago, and receive their education there? In the course of the people’s development, in its entire history, there must necessarily be a stage where it does not enjoy all possible facilities, and that there is a shortage of classroom facilities is in fact a symptom of the tremendous growth and expansion of education facilities and of the enrolment of the Coloured youth for teaching. But South Africa, and in particular the Cape Province, is full of all kinds of buildings for the Coloured population. At present there is hardly even a rural centre without a reasonable school for Coloureds.

I want to go further and point out that we do not allow even the Coloureds’ training to stop at high school training. It was this Government that took the step of establishing the University College of the Western Cape, with faculties of the Arts, Mathematics, Natural History, Education and other which are to follow. This Government is also actively engaged in providing technical training. I may remind hon. members of the most important of those institutions: the Peninsula Technical College, the Cape Vocational High School, Athlone; nine State-aided vocational schools; agricultural training at Comrie; even training for Coloured seamen. The hon. member referred here to the Coloured population’s inadequate share in the fishing industry. One would think the Coloureds were excluded. He is forgetting that there is a large number of Coloured fishermen who are earning good wages; there are even Coloured masters or skippers of boats, and there are even boat owners among them. Those people have indeed made progress. For example, a crayfish quota has been reserved for the Coloured population, and is handled in their interest by the Coloured Development Corporation, by which means a field is kept open to them, and also an opportunity to build up capital for increased participation in future by exploiting that quota. I came to the conclusion that the hon. member has never sat down unprejudiced with a report of the Department of Coloured Affairs to read through it thoroughly. I came to the conclusion that he has never made a thorough reading of a report of the Coloured Development Corporation. He really cannot be so uniformed, unless he deliberately wanted to present an incorrect image this afternoon and wanted to ignore the facts.

If we look at the Estimates before the House at present, we see that of the total of R46,075,000 to be appropriated for Coloured Affairs, an amount of R24,451,000 will be spent on Coloured education in general, i.e. primary school education, high school education, technical education, etc. Apart from that R24,000,000, a further R522,000 is to be spent on university training, and a further R448,000 on grants-in-aid and bursaries, i.e. approximately R25,500,000. Mr. Speaker, does that not prove that the Government is not only planning the development and the progress of the Coloured population, but is actively interested in it and is actively contributing towards its realization? That is part of the general planning on the part of this Government.

We are convinced—there is no doubt about it—that that is essential to the future participation of the Coloured in commerce and industry in this country. But it would not be enough if we stopped at education and training facilities, and the question is: Have specific attempts been made to give the Coloured population a foothold in our economic life? Is anything being done to give them an opportunity in commerce and industry? Our reply to that is definitely “yes”. The hon. member for Karoo merely said: “I know there is such a thing as the Coloured Development Corporation.” That is all he said about it. Well, we are grateful that he at least knows that. The Coloured Development Corporation was established under Act No. 4 of 1962. At the time the United Party members voted against that Bill. In view of the hon. member’s speech. I should like to ask them this afternoon why they voted against it. Why did the hon. member vote against it? Did he. as a businessman, see a threat to himself in the fact that a Coloured may now also become a concurrent businessman, be it only in his own area? If that is not so, were the words he used this afternoon not mere lip-service? I say it is a pity—a great pity—that responsible people on the side of the United Party simply ignore these facts and do not keep themselves informed of what is being done.

The Coloured Development Corporation was established with the object of lending money to Coloureds to enable them to start businesses; to lend them money to enable them to buy existing businesses; to lend them money to enable them, in the case of companies, to start business undertakings; to give free advice, by means of the Coloured Development Corporation, to people who already have their own businesses; to stand surety on behalf of them for the fulfilment of contracts and obligations, as Coloured businessmen. Mr. Speaker, if you made inquiries you would find that through the years that Corporation has assisted a number of Coloured businessmen to start their own undertakings, and not only to start them some day, but to start them actively right now. From September, 1962, to December, 1964, loans to the amount of R1,134,000 were granted to 109 Coloured businessmen.

From January. 1965, to June, 1966—very recently—a further 20 were assisted. A total of 131 loans have now been granted, to the amount of R1,593,396. Mr. Speaker, that shows you that the Government is working actively to assist these businessmen by means of capital provision, advice and guidance. You will appreciate of course, Sir, that the Development Corporation has to monitor applications, and has to advise people and help them plan. The Government is actively guiding these people to take an active part in our country’s economic life.

Meanwhile a savings and finance bank, namely the Spes Bona Savings and Finance Bank, has been established. There the Coloured population will also receive the opportunity of mobilizing their capital for further participation in the economic life. Mr. Speaker, the Coloured population is aware of the fact at present, and they are becoming increasingly aware of that, particularly the Coloured businessmen, that it is the National Party Government which has opened up a future to them and which has created opportunities for them which they have never dreamt of and which they would never have received under the old dispensation, when they were still the slum dwellers and the street cleaners of the White cities.

Mr. Speaker, when I read the motion standing in the name of my colleague, the hon. member for Karoo, I asked myself: What exactly is intended by the motion? It would appear, Sir, that you can interpret the motion in two ways. In the first place, there is the way in which the hon. member who introduced the motion interpreted it himself. Then there is another way, in which I intend to interpret it. We will therefore probably be speaking to the same motion, but with different approaches to it.

My interpretation of this motion is that there should be better opportunities for the Coloured people to participate in the commerce and industry of South Africa. I do not want to approach it on the lines that White industrial organizations or White businesses should employ Coloured people, because they are doing that anyway. I rather want to give a slogan to the Government in regard to the Coloured’s future participation in and ownership of their own businesses. This slogan is: Think big for the Coloureds and act big for the Coloureds in commerce and industry. If the Government will think big for the Coloureds, I visualize the time when we will see in the large area which has been created on the borders of Cape Town supermarkets, factories and hotels owned and run by Coloured people. That is the viewpoint that I want to stress to-day in regard to the opportunities of the Coloured people in commerce and industry. I want the Government to think big so that the Coloured man will, in the words of the hon. member for Karoo, be able to enjoy the same rights in commerce and industry as the White man. I am encouraged to discuss this matter fully with the hon. the Minister, because I believe that is what the Government has in mind. I realize that what the hon. member said in regard to apartheid, these irritating apartheid measures of the Government, we have already discussed. I do not want to bring that into this motion.

These apartheid measures uplift the Coloureds.

I know that hon. member is very keen. He is very new, but he must just understand that I am not going to discuss the apartheid aspect of this motion at the moment. I want to ask the hon. the Minister in the first place how far the Government has proceeded in regard to the policy enunciated by the Coloured Development Corporation in the report on its activities during the period October. 1962 to September, 1963. In this report the Government has issued a statement which I welcome as a Coloured representative. The statement reads as follows—

This is a very encouraging statement for the Coloured people. I should now like to ask the hon. the Minister how far he has gone in this regard. In regard to some of the difficulties that have apparently been experienced by the Corporation in the establishment of these factories and the advancement on the lines indicated, I should like to suggest to the hon. the Minister that immediately or as soon as possible a course of business management should be established at the university at Bellville where Coloured persons may be trained in business management. It is clear from the statement made here that it is the lack of knowledge and managerial experience which have hampered progress in the establishment of these undertakings by the Government. I want the hon. the Minister to give me the assurance that there will be a course of business management at the College of the Western Cape at Bellville. In order to have these businesses established and in order for them to flourish, it is obviously necessary to have executives for those businesses. It is the training of these executives for executive positions that I think is very urgent and very necessary so that they can take their place when these businesses are eventually established. You must realize, however, Sir, that not only managers are needed in these businesses. Secretaries should also know what their job means. Auditors and bookkeepers will also be required. In regard to auditors, the hon. member for Karoo made the point that there was some difficulty in regard to apprentices at some of these firms. Can the Minister not find some way of seeing that there is an opening for young Coloured men who want to become auditors, so that they can take their rightful place when these businesses are established?

It is all very well to establish this course at the University College of the Western Caper but you must find the personnel and I think that one of the points the hon. member for Karoo tried to make, which is germane to this aspect of the motion which I have tried to put forward, was that if you want personnel to train for these executive positions and to become secretaries, auditors, etc., you must have Coloured people who are educated. This should be part and parcel of the eventual position, which I hope, will be attained by the Coloured people. There should be aptitude tests in the schools for these Coloured boys and girls who have the aptitude for this type of business. Education plays an important part in the ultimate goal which we hope to reach.

Mr. Speaker, I know that we want compulsory education. There is no secret about the fact that we have pleaded for compulsory education. We also know that the Government has said that compulsory education will come in time. I am hoping that it will not be too long. I think provision for this is made in the Act which was passed a few years ago. What I think we must press for is the acceleration of the policy in regard to compulsory education.

At the opening of Parliament the State President said:

I do not quite follow that statement. I should like the hon. the Minister to explain what is meant by “taken over by members of the Coloured community”. Are these undertakings being established by the Government in Coloured areas as Government undertakings which will then be put out for tenders? I feel that this is a little misleading. I should therefore like the Minister to explain exactly what this means.

Mr. Speaker, the Coloured people have been described by my friend as a lost community. I would rather say that they are a neglected community. The Coloured people are a neglected community because the White people neglect them. I think the object of this motion is to ask the Government to look after its neglected child. I am not blaming the neglect only on the Government of to-day. I think it was also the Governments in the past who neglected them. We must all take the blame for the neglect of the Coloured man, who to-day needs our help. There are thousands and thousands of Coloured people who, despite the adversities of the times, have made progress. There are thousands of them who want to go into commerce and industry. All they need is that little assistance which has been promised. I accept that promise which was made by the Government.

I should like to raise one point which was brought to my notice by the hon. member for Outeniqua, who will not be taking part in this debate because time does not allow it. It is something which I think the Government ought to take into consideration, if it is correct, and I have no doubt that the information is correct. In the smaller towns where group areas have been declared and created, and where the Coloured man has to move away from the White village and is put on the side in his own area, he wants his own businesses. Now I am told that there is undue delay by the local authorities in many places in declaring certain sites for business purposes or putting these sites up for sale because if there is a business in the Coloured area, the Coloureds will not buy in the White area. There seems to be a tug of war. I am told that in many of these towns the town councils or village management boards have many local businessmen on the council who are loath to lose the custom of the Coloured people, and therefore hold back or delay the development of business sites. I put it to the Minister that if it is so, and I am told by two of my colleagues that it is so, I think it is unfortunate that where these Coloured people want to develop their own businesses, there should be delay in the fulfilment of their hopes.

The hon. member for Rosettenville said in regard to the previous motion: We do not want commissions. We do not want inquiries because they will only cause a delay. If you have a commission and evidence is called for, it takes time. The evidence then has to be discussed and a further delay is caused. I should therefore rather like to make the appeal to the Minister to accelerate as far as possible the policy set out in the statement which I read, which is a Government statement.

I think the Minister should also consider making the interest rates and the payments in regard to loans a little easier for the Coloureds. I do not know too much about this, but one or two people have said that the authorities are too choosy. I think one should be a little more relaxed and show a little ease in the apportioning of money required by the Coloureds. I realize that this cannot be done in the case of any Tom, Dick or Harry who comes along and says that he wants to start a business. I do, however, think that the Government should consider making it easier for these loans to be obtained.

I therefore hope that it will not take too long before we will have a report from the Government that there has been an acceleration in the establishment of big businesses. Think big, I say to the hon. the Minister. Let us see the establishment in the areas bordering the city of the same big businesses with the same opportunities as we have in the towns. If the Minister does that, I think it will be a sign of goodwill towards the Coloureds. I think it will be appreciated. I feel that we can rely on the Government. I do not want to deal with apartheid measures. It does not concern me much under this motion whether the Free State wants to have apartheid in businesses. I do not think that that will ever come to pass. When you touch a man’s pocket, he soon has regrets, and I am therefore not worried about this. I should like to draw the attention of the House to the fact that we probably have about 88 per cent, according to the statistics, of the Coloured people living in the Cape. The mass of the Coloured people is therefore here. I make this appeal to the Minister to give his attention to the few points I have raised and I look forward to his reply.

Mr. Speaker, unfortunately I have very little time and I cannot refer to the previous speakers. I just want to say, however, that when I entered the House, I heard that the hon. member for Karoo had created the impression that there were only six schools for the non-White children, and afterwards he qualified that by adding: “Where there is compulsory education”. I just want to ask him whether that is a sound comparison, considering the fact that at present only 10 per cent of the Coloured children are not enjoying voluntary education. It was an incorrect impression that he tried to create here.

The hon. member also spoke about unemployment among the Coloureds. I shall give him the figures just now. We shall then hear what the figures have to say. As regards the hon. member for Boland, I listened to his “visions of super-scenery of markets and the Utopia of happiness”, as I call it, as far as the Coloureds are concerned. I do not regard that as realistic, Sir. He said the Coloureds were neglected and I shall deal with that now. When a commission of inquiry is mentioned with regard to matters like these one suspects in the first place that there is something wrong, or otherwise that there has been negligence on the part of the Government; in other words, that it has not had the necessary foresight to plan timeously for the development of that group. But I cannot accept that something of that nature, which concerns man and his needs, is relevant to commerce and industry only. I therefore presume that he meant the general economic upliftment of our Coloured population. Let us try to ascertain briefly what the Government’s record is with regard to the Coloureds. Let us see, in the light of our findings, whether or not it will be found guilty, in view of the manpower position and the money at its disposal.

*The Government’s policy with regard to the socio-economic upliftment of the Coloureds was set out most pertinently and in detail for the first time by the hon. the Prime Minister on 7th December. 1960. and again on 12th December, 1961. He set out the Republic’s policy as regards the Coloureds. Briefly, the Government’s striving amounts, and has always amounted, to giving everybody his dues, and to creating prospects for the Coloureds so that they will also attain greater self-respect by availing themselves of their opportunities, and so that they will one day achieve their rightful share in the economy of the country. Amongst other things, their development with regard to agriculture and local industries and the almost 2,000,000 morgen that belongs to them traditionally, were envisaged. With regard to that land, the hon. the Prime Minister mentioned agricultural development, management rights. their own church and social communities and school complexes.

The education of a community is therefore not intended merely to make people suitable for working for others. An opportunity will also be created for the Coloureds to muster their own capital in order that they may eventually also progress financially. Thus the Coloured Development Corporation came into being as a part of the planning in respect of the Coloureds. I shall not elaborate on that, because I do not have the time to do so. The previous speaker has already elaborated on that. In terms of Act No. 4 of 1962 funds have been made available and free expert advice is given in the establishment and development of Coloured businesses, undertakings and industries in Coloured areas, and in order to encourage and promote these. The State is the only shareholder. Initially the capital was R100,000, but it was expanded in view of the increased needs of the Coloureds. Until the end of 1964—that was the annual report I have received—R425,868 was made available for those Coloured businesses. Bioscopes, transportation businesses. bottle stores, butcheries, dealers, etc., were assisted to be successful businesses. That, Sir, I regard as a great act of upliftment, for by means of the bottle stores and restaurants that have been made available for Coloureds, even though that is still in an early stage, we have already brought about a tremendous change in the Coloureds’ drinking pattern in certain areas.

Through this Corporation the Coloureds have also obtained crayfish export quotas, and have obtained rights in terms of the 1962 legislation for the exploitation of base minerals in Namaqualand. The Spes Bona bank has already been mentioned, by means of which they have also obtained a financial institution of their own, and which now offers prospects to Coloured businessmen and a means of training young Coloureds in banking and in finance. It is also the object of this bank to make certain shares available to the Coloured public in due course. But while they are developing in this way, they are also enjoying the benefits of White skill and assistance. Thus their population group is afforded an opportunity of keeping abreast of the economy of the country, with the assistance of the Whites and of the Government. Training is a basic requirement if one is to achieve one's share in a civilized world. Because that is the case, the Government envisaged a dynamic education policy for the Coloureds even in those years. My hon. friend has already dealt with that. Nursery schools, primary schools, high schools, vocational schools, apprenticeship schools and higher education institutions and training colleges have increased to a large extent over the years. The University College of the Western Cape, which started with a meagre 160 students, has 416 students at present. There are schools for technical training and industry, and there are many of them. We find schools at Wellington, and there are the schools for the handicapped, like those at Faure and other places. But those facilities will only succeed if the Coloured himself comes forward and accepts the challenge, so that he may also make this contribution in turn. I am confident that he will in due course do that if we give him the opportunity. But I object to spoonfeeding him, because then that Utopia will never come about. And this education is sound education, because it is run according to White standards. The Department of Education, Arts and Science sets the standards, and then we also have the Joint Matriculation Board and the University of South Africa.

I should like to conclude, even if I have to turn my pages rather fast. Reference is made here to a commission of inquiry because there are no opportunities for employment. Let us consider the position as regards provision of employment. The numbers registered with the Department of Labour indicate the following: The Coloured registrations, out of a total population of 1,599,000, of which 11,000 enter industry every year, were 348,000 in 1946 and 548,000 in I960. But if the Coloureds are now receiving all the opportunities for employment available to them, we object to the establishment of that commission of inquiry. There is after all no reason for that. From the 1964 report of the Department of Labour I want to give the figures briefly. The Coloured men registered numbered 35,600 and at the end of December 8,000 were left. In semi-skilled employment, women, there were 10,147. and by the end of December 346 were left. Men, 8,745, and in December there were 400 plus. In commerce, Coloured men, 472 were unemployed at the beginning of 1964, and 18 at the end of the year. That shows that Coloured unemployment in our country is 1 per cent or less. If one has neither the people nor the man-power for the jobs, how is one to create better opportunities for employment for them? No, all matriculants and all trained persons in the Coloured community are eligible for placement at present. I shall leave my evidence at that, but I should like to furnish it on a later occasion, because my time has expired.

I also would like to approach this subject on lines similar to those of the hon. member for Boland, but just before I come to that I would like to get back to the previous speakers. Both the hon. members for Gordonia and Pietersburg made great play of the fact that the hon. member for Karoo mentioned six small schools. The point that the hon. member for Karoo made was that there were only six small schools at which compulsory education was applicable. The point he was trying to make was that there was not sufficient compulsory education for Coloureds. It had nothing to do with trying to belittle the number of schools that had been erected for Coloured people in this country. The hon. member for Gordonia also made rather a peculiar statement. He said that commissions were usually appointed when there was something wrong or where the Government was not carrying out its duty. Then it is peculiar that the Government appoints so many commissions, but they appoint commissions for very good reasons. I do not think any Minister will admit that he appoints a commission because he has not done his duty. Commissions are necessary under certain circumstances in order to plan and to find out exactly what has to be done. What worries one is that speaker after speaker tries to impress everybody with the position to-day compared with what it was 20 years ago. Naturally the position has improved. What a country we would have been had there been no improvements! Surely in every country of the world conditions have improved ten-fold, even in Red China, and we must expect, under whatever Government we have, that the conditions of the Coloured people will to-day be much better than they were 20 years ago. And that improvement is not because of the Nationalist Party Government. It is simply because the whole country and all the conditions have improved. I want to pay this tribute to the Department of Coloured Affairs for the very sympathetic manner in which they have applied the Government’s laws and regulations to the Coloured people. I think that they are really very sympathetic towards the Coloureds and that they are doing a first-class and excellent job of work as far as they can.

We of the United Party differ in many respects from the Government in connection with the Coloured people, especially the policies with regard to political representation and many other things, but I think we should try to find some common ground in the interest of the Coloured people as well as in the interest of this country as a whole. We of the United Party recognize the Coloured people as forming part of the Western group. We believe that the Coloureds are an appendix of the White people of this country, whereas our friends of the Nationalist Party look upon them as a completely separate entity, as a sort of state within a state. We sometimes gain the impression that they look upon them as so separate that they may not even be citizens of this country. But they speak the same language and belong to the same churches that we belong to, and they have the same culture that we have and, above all, they have the same way of life that we as White people have. Both the United Party and the Nationalist Party, we willingly—our friends opposite perhaps not quite so willingly—accept the Coloureds as integrated into the economy of this country and as basically forming part of our economy, and more particularly in the Cape where there are a large number of Coloureds. Here in the Cape the Government is trying very hard to remove the Bantu from the Western Cape and that can only integrate the Coloured people deeper into our economy if that were possible. Then you have the inescapable economic fact that the greater the opportunities afforded to the Coloured people to be active in our economy, the greater will be the contribution which they will be able to make to our economy, in their own interest as well as ours. The Budget we have just had was meant to be disinflationary, but the real solution for inflation is to produce more, and to do that we have to make the Coloured people a force in our economy which will produce more. The more we can produce and the more we can integrate them into our economy at a higher and more productive level, the more easily will we be able to combat inflation in this country. The Coloured people have traditionally been productive. They were, in bygone days, chiefly responsible for the building trade, and they were the craftsmen. To a large extent they were the people who were responsible for our Vergelegens and Groot Constantias. They played a tremendous part in building and craftsmanship in those days, but lately their productivity has been hampered and reduced due to job reservation and the difficulty they find in entering into apprenticeships. The apprenticeship laws do not discriminate but in actual fact it is exceedingly difficult for a Coloured man to be apprenticed and to learn a trade, and because of that their contribution is limited. Young Coloured people who leave school after the higher standards do not have enough opportunities to become better employed and to increase their productivity. Last year there were 1,500 Coloured boys and girls in the matric. class and something like 2,300 in the Std. IX class, and 6,300 in the Std. VIII class. What are really the prospects of those people to-day as far as suitable employment is concerned when they leave school? The hon. member for Gordonia mentioned the statistics from the Department of Labour and he said that there were virtually no Coloured people unemployed. We admit that because the economy can absorb them in the ordinary labouring classes, but the motion here pleads for better facilities for the employment of Coloureds. Our country is shouting for matriculants. Towards the end of every year you have commerce and industry and the Public Service and everybody else hunting for matriculants, White children, but if we make use of the Coloured matriculants and those who are technically trained, those who are properly prepared to take their place in the economy of this country, we would be doing this country a tremendous amount of good. As the result of the fact that many of these children who have passed the higher standards find it very difficult to find employment in the better positions, much frustration is caused. That is why so many of the better-class Coloured people and so many Coloured teachers are leaving this country, mainly because they do not see a really good future for their children in this country. This lack of future prospects is causing no end of frustration among the Coloured people. The parents slave and save in order to find the means to provide their children with an education, and when they have it they find it difficult to place them in employment, and this is causing a fair amount of frustration among them and a deterioration in the relations between the Coloured people and the Whites.

This motion asks that the provision of employment for Coloureds should be inquired into and I support it because I think it is absolutely necessary that something should be done to place them. Of course we want to protect the White worker. We do not want the White worker to be exposed to low wages and to being undermined. Therefore we favour the policy of the rate for the job. But within that framework I am sure that much can be done for the Coloured people to give them greater economic opportunities, which will be in their interest as well as in ours.

Mr. Speaker, even if this is my maiden speech as Minister of Coloured Affairs, I still feel obliged to express my disappointment at the way in which the hon. member for Karoo has introduced this motion. I do not hesitate to say that if that is the way in which he wants to further the interests of the Coloured population in this House, then I feel sorry for the Coloured people. The motion itself and the way in which it has been introduced is proof to me that the hon. member, in spite of the fact that he is a representative of the Coloured people, has apparently never taken the trouble to determine what precisely is being done for the Coloured people in the spheres of industry and commerce. When the Corporation was referred to, the C.D.C., he merely said that he knew of its existence. It is unheard of for a representative of the Coloured people merely to refer to the C.D.C., that body which has already done such a very great deal for the Coloured population and to which I am now going to refer in detail. Merely to say that one knows of its existence, and not to know precisely what that body is doing, is shocking, because you do not have to drive 100 miles to find out what it is doing. One can merely drive around in the Peninsula, 15 miles away from the House of Assembly building, in order to see what is being done by the C.D.C. for the Coloured population. That is why I say that I feel disappointed about the way in which this motion has been introduced, particularly since we are dealing with people in regard to whom we do not want to indulge in politicking but in regard to whom we must all have the serious purpose of really helping to uplift them.

Mr. Speaker, when I read this motion I interpreted it as being a serious attempt to afford the Coloured people greater opportunities of participating in the commerce and industry. That is how I read the motion. The fact that a commission of enquiry is being attached to it, did not disconcert me. But I really interpreted it as meaning that we should do more in order to allow the Coloured peoples to make progress in commerce and industry. Now, arising from the remark made by the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens, let me say immediately that in spite of his remark to the effect that opportunities for work are supposedly being restricted as a result of job reservation, I just want to repeat what I have said here on previous occasions. In spite of job reservation the Coloured peoples to-day have more opportunities for work here in the Cape and in the Western Province than they have ever had in the past. Coloured people to-day are working in positions which they did not hold ten to fifteen years ago. I am not going to confine myself to that at the moment. In my reply I want to confine myself to commerce and industry, to what has been done and is being done to help the Coloured people in that field.

Now, Sir, when one is talking about this field then the establishment of the Coloured Development Corporation—to which I shall refer briefly as C.D.C.—was one of the most important steps which this Government has taken and which has ever been taken for the Coloured population in this country in order to help them to make progress in commerce and industry. Let me just remind you that this C.D.C. was established in 1962. It was established for the express purpose of affording the Coloured people an opportunity of not only occupying positions as ordinary workers, but of rising to managerial levels in commerce and industry. It was established with the purpose of affording the Coloured people the opportunity of becoming independent entrepreneurs. When it was established, it was established with a capital of R1,500,000. But step by step that has been increased to R1,770,000. And in the Budget at present before this House, a further R520,000 is being added, which means that in four years time the capital of C.D.C. has been pushed up to R2,290,000. Now I want to make the following assertion. If there has ever been anything which a Government has done in this country to prove that it was in earnest in regard to the upliftment of the Coloured population then it is this C.D.C. But, Mr. Speaker—and the hon. member for Karoo who is an authority on and a representative of the Coloureds, ought to know this—the major problem which the C.D.C. has to deal with to-day is that the money is inadequate. The major problem is that there are not enough trained Coloured people to utilize on a managerial level that which has been given to them. That is the greatest problem. And now the hon. member for Karoo complains that the Government is progressing too slowly, that we wish to force the Coloured people into Coloured areas so that tiny Coloured businesses should come into being which cannot do business. I want to ask the hon. member for Karoo, who made such a political speech on this matter, whether the Coloured people made any progress in the integrated society which existed during the years they were in power. Let me mention Cape Town, which has a United Party Municipal Council. Did the Coloured people make any progress in the municipal area of Cape Town, in these mixed areas, during those years? Did they make any progress in this mixed society? No, Mr. Speaker, they did not make any progress here. They simply could not compete with the strong competition from Whites and members of other races. They could not make any progress in this mixed society. Here in Cape Town, where are the outstanding Coloured businesses in this United Party-controlled area? There are none, because the Coloured people in this mixed society have never learnt to stand on their own legs. They did not receive any financial aid. They did not receive the guidance of a Government. But—above all—they did not have the necessary protection.

A moment ago the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens had hold of “job reservation”. This Coloured development which is taking place to-day, this commercial development, is taking place thanks to the protection they are being afforded They are being afforded protection in their own areas. I shall refer in a moment to businesses in their own areas which I have visited myself. There they can make progress because they have the protection. because those businesses which have been established in Athlone, businesses which are in existence there and which we aid, are being afforded protection to-day against unfair competition, against competition with more experienced people against whom they could not hold their own. I want to express it as my conviction that the Coloured people can only make progress in the field of commerce and industry within the framework of separate development. They can only make progress within this framework they are afforded, in the first place, that necessary protection against other more experienced business competition. They are receiving the necessary guidance and financial assistance from the Government and its agent. That is why, Mr. Speaker, the work of the C.D.C. is of such inestimable value. Now the hon. member for Karoo is asking that a commission of enquiry be appointed. Does the hon. member not know that the C.D.C. is engaged on an inquiry every day of the year? It is investigating business opportunities for the Coloured people every day of the year. No additional commission is necessary to do this work. As far as that is concerned, the C.D.C. is in itself a commission of enquiry.

Let me just state these facts in order to show what progress there has been. During these few years of its existence the C.D.C. has already spent R1,500,000 in order to set up 131 Coloured businesses. I just want to mention now that I have made it my task during the few months which I have been Minister of Coloured Affairs, not only to visit the Coloured areas and other parts of the country, but also to pay specific visits to businesses which the Coloured people had established. A few weeks ago I accompanied Minister Vorster as the Minister of Justice administrating the Liquor Act on a visit to a number of bottle store restaurants here in the Athlone area. Now I want to put it to the House to-day that those bottle store-restaurants, where a new drinking pattern is being introduced, where the consumers of liquor no longer have to stand at a counter but sit at tables, like decent people, has not only brought with it a change in the drinking pattern, but that it is also one of the most important deeds of upliftment which has been done for the Coloured people. This is so, Sir, because it enables them to go to drinking places like decent people and sit there and entertain their friends in a most civilized way, in a way which they appreciate.

But, Mr. Speaker, this has not only resulted in a change in drinking pattern and social upliftment. It also affords employment opportunities. At each one of those bottle store-restaurants, which for the most part have been established and are being maintained with C.D.C. assistance and supervision, there are an average of 16 Coloureds in employment there. They therefore form places of employment for their fellow Coloureds on a scale which they have never previously experienced, on a scale which did not exist in that integrated society, a scale which is only possible to-day within the framework of separate development.

But now I want to state further that it was not only those bottle stores which we established. Fourteen restaurants and bottle stores have been established. The capital already amounts to R428,000. But that is not all. There are also hotels which have been established with the aid of C.D.C. I paid a visit to the Grassy Park Hotel, which is probably one of the most modern of hotels. Coloured delegates can stay there when they have to attend congresses here. The hotel is being managed properly and is being run on a paying basis. It is an hotel to which the C.D.C. contributed a great deal. But apart from that hotel, four others have also been established in the country. That is also the work of the C.D.C. Something which they have never had in their lives before they are now getting, within the framework of separate development. That is why, Mr. Speaker, it astonishes me that the hon. member for Karoo has merely referred to these important developments by remarking that he is aware of the existence of the C.D.C. And do you know to what extent it exists, Mr. Speaker? It has not only established hotels and restaurants. During the time it has been in existence it has helped to establish 44 retail businesses in which R280,000 has already been invested. It has seen to it that five transport businesses have been established for Coloureds in which R50,000 has been invested. It has been of assistance in the establishment of three bioscopes for Coloureds which are under Coloured management, to the amount of R141,000. Are these not major achievements of which everybody in this country can be proud? If one is in earnest with the upliftment of the Coloured people, then these are things which count, and not the remarks such as those made by the hon. member for Karoo who referred to “an intolerable position”, “a lost community”.

They are.

Are these actions signs that they are in an “intolerable position”? Are these not actions which can be appreciated by any right-thinking person in this country? If one considers that, apart from these things which I have just mentioned, the C.D.C. has also helped the Coloured people to establish two dry-cleaning factories and four other factory undertakings to the amount of R74,000, then I really think that in the short time the C.D.C. has been in existence an amazing amount has been done to enable the Coloureds to stand on their own feet.

But Mr. Speaker, that is not all. The hon. member for Boland spoke about greater opportunities which we should create, such as factories for example. That is also open for the Coloured people to utilize in the future. The advantages of border areas has been extended to areas where there are major concentrations of Coloured people, such as George, Knysna, the Upington area, and the Heilbron area. Those areas are open with a view to the advantages of border areas. In those areas where there are large concentrations of Coloured people, and unemployment, the advantages of border areas will be granted when factories are established there. Whites have already made applications which have been granted. If Coloured people, with the aid of the C.D.C., make applications in those areas, they will also be able to participate in that border area development.

But. Mr. Speaker, the greatest problem which we have to cope with in this process of upliftment of the Coloured people is not the provision of money by the State. The greatest problem we are faced with, is the fact that there are insufficient trained Coloured people to avail themselves of these opportunities for work.

May I ask a question? What is a border area for Coloured people?

From the discussion of the Bantu areas the hon. member is probably acquainted already with the idea of border areas, as a e found in the Transkei where Cyril Lord is. Those identical advantages have been extended. In regard to areas where there are large concentrations of Coloured people, such as Knysna, George and Upington in the North-West—I was there the other day with the hon. member for Gordonia—my predecessor has pleaded for the Coloured people obtaining border area advantages in regard to water and power supply if they wish to establish factories there. They must also obtain certain tax rebates on the buildings to be established there. Those are the border area advantages which apply in respect of those areas.

But, Sir, the essential point in this whole matter is the shortage of trained Coloured executives. We are tackling that need on a very broad front. The hon. member for Boland has also pleaded for the Coloured people who are being trained as managers—“executives”—bookkeepers and others to be afforded those additional opportunities as well. That is being done. Apart from the training opportunities which exist at the vocational school at Athlone—the most modern vocational school one can find—and apart from the new technical college at the University of the Western Cape, the cornerstone of which was laid the other day and which will open at the beginning of next year, there will also be part-time evening classes for people who desire training in commercial and industrial techniques. In fact, the University of the Western Cape already offers subjects in commerce and industrial economy. But that is not precisely what was meant. What the hon. member meant was that the man who was working should be afforded that opportunity. He can avail himself of the opportunity. In fact, they are receiving these opportunities at the moment at the Technical College section which is still in Roeland Street. There are 1,100 attending part-time classes and 1,200 which are full-time apprentices. One of the hon. members complained that there are too few apprentices. Here 1,200 Coloured apprentices are being trained at day-schools. And apart from that 1,100 are receiving part-time training in commerce, bookkeeping, typing, etc. But apart from that other facilities will also be established at the University of the Western Cane, as they are required. I can only add the following: As far as this need for training is concerned, one of the first steps we had to take was to acquire Coloured teachers who had been trained in technical subjects. They had never been trained before. Now for the first time, when the Technical College is established in Bellville South next year, it will be possible to train Coloured teachers in technical subjects. That is one of the numerous steps which are being taken so as to be able to fill this tremendous gap in our process of upliftment of the Coloured people.

But now I must hasten to conclude, and I just want to say this about the future. When one considers future opportunities, then I want to say that I have every hope and I firmly believe that progress will be made. If one considers the progress which has been made in recent years, i.e. the way in which the Coloured people are being trained to become managers, then the future will also be able to afford us great opportunities in this respect. At all those restaurant shops which I visited, there were Coloured managers. I gained the impression that they took their work very seriously and that they were making progress in that direction. I am again associating myself with what the hon. member for Boland asked, i.e. whether it was not possible to undertake larger businesses. Yes, Mr. Speaker. Apart from the small businesses, in regard to which the hon. member for Karoo was so upset because we allegedly wanted to establish small shops in the Coloured areas, large businesses will also be established. But the large business undertakings cannot be undertaken with Coloured initiative only. Once again it will have to be the C.D.C. which will have to take the initiative there. After they have taken the initiative and established something worthwhile, whether it is a factory or an undertaking of that size, then time will tell when the Coloured people will be able to take over. The hon. member asked what “takeover” meant. “Take-over” means that, if the C.D.C. has for example begun a factory for Coloureds it will then give them the necessary training in that managerial organization. When it is convinced that they are able to take over, then it will give that undertaking to them, and the necessary shares will be given to the Coloured people who have the ability to handle them. That is precisely what is happening in the case of the Spes Bona Bank at Athlone. That will be the first bank of its kind. The first branch of Spes Bona was opened here. Only five Coloureds worked there. But the manager is a White official of the C.D.C. He only remains there as long as it is necessary. The moment the assistant manager—who is a Coloured person—is able to take over, he will take over this Spes Bona Bank. The take-over will take place in the same way in any other undertaking. That is why I want to state it as my conviction that, in the light of one’s knowledge, and what one sees in regard to the problems with which the Coloureds have to cope, i.e. a shortage of business training, a shortage also perhaps of this experience of competing with other people, then I believe that only within this framework which the Government has established will the Coloured person be able to become a factor in the business world. That will be so because within this framework he enjoys that necessary protection against, I will not say unfair competition, but against competition which they are not equal to. It affords them that protection in their own areas. Now, as far as their own areas are concerned, I just want to mention the following. The hon. member for Karoo intimated a moment ago that this development in the group areas is a miserable business. The hon. member probably wants the development to take place on a more integrated basis. Our surveys indicate that in these areas which have been proclaimed as Coloured areas, there are 80 non-Coloured businesses. They were established in spite of the fact that the Coloured people were afforded ample opportunity to begin the businesses themselves. There was nothing to stop them from doing so. But in spite of that there are 80 non-Coloured businesses in the proclaimed Coloured areas to-day. We will not be able to effect a take-over overnight. But as rapidly as the C.D.C. and the Coloured people are able to cope with them, those businesses will be bought-out and transferred into the possession of the Coloured people in those areas.

That is why, Mr. Speaker, I now want to express this conviction. The Coloured people have a future in the commercial sphere within this framework. For that our guidance, our sympathy, but also our goodwill in all respects is necessary, goodwill which the Whites must not begrudge them, but what is also necessary on the other hand is that Whites should not confuse them in the performance of this duty. That is important, Mr. Speaker. Since the Coloured people are now being afforded an opportunity which they have never had before in their lives, we as Whites must not try and ridicule or criticize them in the carrying out and performance of that duty. We are affording them opportunities here. Let us not begrudge them those opportunities, and let us not in any way ridicule those opportunities which they have to-day in a debate such as this one, or wherever it may be.

I want to conclude by saying that through our financial assistance via the C.D.C. through our guidance, through our patience, this Government will continue to help the Coloured people to stand on its own feet, so that they can manage their own businesses. Until that has been achieved this House may be sure that this Government will not rest.

Mr. Speaker, it is not my intention to make any kind of lengthy reply. I only want to say to the hon. the Minister that I am delighted to know that the matter has been ventilated as it has been. I do not withdraw one whit of what I have said. I want to assure the hon. the Minister that what he says has been done is acknowledged. But, Sir, there is a great deal more to be done. We will deal with that at a later date.

With leave, the amendment and motion were withdrawn.