To link up with the very short speech I made last night I just want to add that the fact that, in spite of droughts, in spite of the fact that the population has increased by between 4,000,000 and 5,000,000, in spite of the fact that by the year 1962 we had slaughtered 2,000,000 sheep more per annum, we have nevertheless succeeded in increasing our small stock population by no less than 7,000,000, clearly shows how successfully the hon. the Minister of Agricultural Technical Services and his Department have done their work. That is all I want to say as far as the arguments advanced by hon. members opposite are concerned.

In the short time at my disposal I want to give my attention to more constructive matters. It is not necessary for me to say a great deal about the drought problem; everybody knows how important that is; everybody knows what proportions it has assumed and everybody knows how hard we have fought against it in recent years. I do want to say, however, that the big success we have achieved under the Soil Conservation Act, as is evident from the increase in our animal population, proves that it has been applied successfully in the right direction. But in spite of this success and the millions of rand which have been very successfully spent, money which I do not think could have been spent more effectively, soil conservation has revealed a defect under the pressure of a prolonged drought. Just as a defect is discovered under pressure in other spheres of life a defect was also discovered in this respect. That defect only manifested itself because the drought was so prolonged. The defect was this that in spite of soil conservation, in spite of the fact that many people faithfully followed the rules, a stage was reached in many parts of the country where there was no longer any grazing for the animals. The defect lies in this that the necessary precautions were not taken in order to be able to feed those animals. Because of that I want to make a request to the hon. the Minister to-day and I want to do so with all the courage of my conviction. I do so in the hope that the hon. the Minister will accede to it because I know that this matter is of very great concern to him and his Department. My request to the hon. the Minister is that he should assist the farmers in these semi-desert and desert parts of the country to erect small camps with fodder racks on their farms. Secondly, I want to ask him to assist them to construct fodder banks on their farms. That has become necessary under the new pattern and where we are introducing such a system; we should have artificial spare camps as it were. No farmer can do without that to-day. Because of the defect in the present system farmers have resorted to malpractices and, because my time is very limited, I merely want to quote from a document which I submitted to the Department in 1962—

In all parts of the country they are trying to devise plans to overcome droughts. I want to say immediately that there is no ingenious plan to be devised. Nothing can be done about it. The whole thing simply rests on three very simple truisms: Firstly, a sheep requires food to stay alive; secondly, the owner is the indicated person to provide that sheep with food and, thirdly, if he has not got it he has to buy it. That is why I say there should be fodder racks; in fact, that artificial reserve camps be constructed on farms. Those racks will have this benefit that the gigantic task of providing rations which the Department has done with success so far, will be made easier and those rations will flow more easily to the farmers. The farmer will then have the facilities to feed those rations in any form. It will have this additional benefit that individual farmers will be able to manufacture these rations from roughage and feed the animals with those in addition to molasses or concentrated foods.

I also want to ask the hon. the Minister to give this priority, if he should consider it favourably, because the farmer will, in the first instance, have to learn to adapt himself to this new pattern. The sooner he gets accustomed to it the better. We also need time to set in motion this development process from the consumer to the producer which in this case will be the farmer who can process roughage economically in the agricultural areas of the country so as to have feed available when the need is at its greatest. Drought conditions set in gradually and if this development process can already be in motion when the drought takes a firm grip of the country it will be possible, not only for large concerns but for individual farmers who have processed it themselves, to make that feed available. Such farmers can then let their fellow-farmers have any surplus. This system can easily be introduced because it is a system which fits into our present method of soil conservation; it moves parallel with the drought. In this way the farmers will learn to regard drought as a twin brother; it will eliminate any feeling by individual farmers that they have been unjustly treated and it offers the State an opportunity of deciding at high level, what financial assistance, if necessary, to give to farmers; this system lends itself to every assistance being given on a sound, methodical and scientific basis. Furthermore, it is a system which, like research, is expanding and improving the present position. I now leave it to the Minister and I thank him. [Time limit.]

Before dealing with the shortage of veterinary surgeons and the training of more veterinarians, I want to deal with the question of rabies. In answer to a question I placed on the Order Paper this year, the hon. the Minister stated that a certain number of animals were declared rabid in 1965 in every province of the Republic. I do not think the public realize what a dangerous disease this is to the human beings living in South Africa. From statements made by State veterinarians we know that many of the dogs are not being injected against rabies. We are told that one of the reasons why there are continuous outbreaks—there was a serious outbreak in Zulu-land the other day—is that there are so many dogs in the Native reserves. The control of these dogs appears to me to be quite unsatisfactory. It is difficult to prove ownership for the purpose of dog licences, let alone for the purpose of compulsory innoculation against rabies.

Arising out of that, Sir, I should like the hon. the Minister to tell us what is being done, not only in the Native reserves, but, for instance, in the Transkei and other Bantu Territorial Authorities as far as the innoculation of dogs is concerned. That must be done on a satisfactory basis because this disease can be very severe. It is not a question of a human being just being injected when he has been bitten; the injection reacts drastically in the human being and we shall deal with that under the Vote of the Minister of Health.

I want to ask the hon. the Minister if he will have some research done in regard to the vaccine used for innoculation against rabies in dogs because it has been found by many of the leading studs that many of the pedigree dogs registered do not breed after one or two injections. We are not going to get the cooperation of those owners if this position is allowed to obtain in the future.

I now want to deal with the question of the shortage of veterinarians. The Natal Agricultural Union and organized agriculture have asked repeatedly for further training facilities for veterinary surgeons. At their congress last year in Durban the Natal Agricultural Union put up an unanswerable case to the Government for the establishment of a Chair of Veterinary Science at the Natal University. They gave chapter and verse. Time does not permit me to deal with all the facts and figures; the Minister has those already. There was no argument to refute their case that such a Chair should be established. The Principal of the Natal University College was present and stated that the Pietermaritzburg section of the Natal University trained first-year medical students and that, with the help of Alliston, Cedara and perhaps Baynsfield, which after all was left by Joseph Baynes to the State for the development of education, it could also train veterinary surgeons.

We only have one college where veterinary surgeons are trained in South Africa and that College has to turn out the tremendous number of vaccines which are used in this country and overseas. This country renders an excellent service in this respect, not only to the farmers in this country but to the farmers in many overseas countries. We export quite a lot of vaccine to help other countries. Onderstepoort has done a wonderful job of work. We are all very grateful to know that that fire they had there the other day was not serious, because Heaven knows what the farmers of this country would have done had that fire been serious, and the output of that College limited to any large extent.

The livestock industry of South Africa is the basic industry of the agricultural community of the Republic. I think more people in the agricultural industry earn their livelihood from the livestock industry, than from any other section of farming, and that shows the importance of the veterinary surgeon in this country. Yet we only have one college turning out veterinary surgeons to cope with this huge country of ours. They have done a wonderful job of work, as I have said; they also have other specialized work to do. Just as there are several medical schools turning out doctors—and they cannot turn out enough —it is even more important to-day to establish more veterinary schools so that there can be sufficient veterinary surgeons to look after our livestock industry. When I speak about Natal I am not looking upon this question in a parochial manner. Natal has the densest cattle population in the whole country.

Where do you get that from?

The hon. member must look at the figures in relation to acreage. When you look at the figures of the cattle population in relation to acreage, Sir, you will find that we carry more cattle, either for beef production or for dairy purposes, per 100 acres in Natal, because we have the pasture and because of our rainfall, than any other part in the Republic. Statistics will prove that. Our output of dairy products over the years has been maintained at a very high level because of the high standard of the herds in Natal in that very high rainfall area. The moment you get a density of highly bred stock, whether they be humans or animals, you find them more susceptible to disease, particularly in the case of dairy cattle. Dairy cattle are much more liable to disease than any other type of stock. [Time limit.]

This is the second day of the debate and I have listened attentively to the speeches of hon. members on the Opposition benches. With the exception of one or two, each one criticized the Government most severely and said it was such a rotten Government. Not one of them said anything constructive. Sir, I think we have had ample time to criticize; firstly, in the no confidence debate, then in the Budget debate and under the Prime Minister’s Vote. That was the time to fly at one another’s throat but I do think that in a debate of this nature every member of this House—irrespective of which side of the House he sits on—should try to say something that will be in the interests of the country. That is what one expects from an Opposition which is worth its salt.

I do not think there is any area in the whole world where agriculture is practised where you do not find pests and plagues. Every section of farming is subject to setbacks and stock farming is no exception. I want to bring something to the notice of the hon. the Minister and that is a plague which has started to get completely out of hand in my constituency over the past number of years. I refer to the termite plague. It is not necessary for me to tell the Minister to-day what serious drought conditions obtain in my constituency because he is aware of it. He also knows that those farmers will have to be assisted through the drought. We are very grateful to the Government for the assistance already given but that is temporary assistance. I am convinced that had it not been for the termite there would still have been sufficient grazing to see us through the coming winter. The termite definitely causes soil erosion. The veld is eaten so bare that the wind and the animals do greater damage in those areas than they do in those areas where there is adequate grass coverage. It has also been proved that the vegetation in those areas is getting thinner. The farmers in my constituency who are troubled with this plague on their farms are getting concerned. I ask myself whether this plague has not in actual fact become as great a danger as the locust plague. I would say “yes”. When our grazing is threatened by locusts the State does everything in its power to combat that plague; costs are not considered. But as far as the termite is concerned the farmer is left to his own devices to eradicate that plague. As I have said the position has completely got out of control in my constituency. I am grateful for the research which is being done in this respect and I also know that some success has been achieved.

I again want to emphasize the fact that, had it not been for the destructive work done by the termites, there would still have been enough grazing to see us through the winter. Those farmers will now be obliged to raise loans. That will mean additional expenditure to the State and it will mean further expenditure in future. That is why I want to ask the hon. the Minister to assist those farmers who have had to struggle through so many droughts in the past few years. They are no longer in a position to-day to combat that plague at their own expense. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to do his utmost to combat this plague at State expense as is done in the case of the locust plague. I am afraid that if that is not done many of those farmers will go bankrupt. I think that is the only way in which those farmers can be saved. The sooner we eradicate that evil the cheaper it will be.

I just want to say a few words about our Soil Conservation Act. When we placed that Act on the Statute Book the main object was to promote soil conservation in South Africa. When you analyse the various aspects of that Act, Sir, you will see that only one object is envisaged, namely, soil conservation. When we placed that Act on the Statute Book we had one ideal only and that was to regain the soil of South Africa and to rehabilitate it so that future generations would inherit it in a better condition than we inherited it. Future generations must be able to say with gratitude that this generation did its duty and not refer to us in a reproachful manner.

That Act has been on the Statute Book since 1946. We thought the time to talk would pass and that we would reach a stage where something would be done. Where we thought that a stage would have been reached to-day where there would have been action we nevertheless find that there is only talk. Most of that talk is criticism of the Government and the Department; mostly criticism of the shortage of officials and criticism of what flows from that shortage, namely, the delay in approving applications and inspection works. The criticism which should already have stopped started in those days. When we think of the year 1947, when only five districts had been proclaimed in this country, we can still hear Minister Strauss, the then Minister of Agriculture, saying in this House: “Applications are streaming in; the stream is beginning to develop into a flood but we are hopelessly short of staff and in addition we are losing many of our technical staff”. That was the complaint of the then Minister of Agriculture. He did not see his way clear, with the staff he had at the time, to cope with the little stream which he said would change into a flood. That stream of applications has now changed into the flood to which he referred, and we are proud to be able to say that this Minister and his Department have that flood properly under control. When we consider the realities of the situation, Sir, we realize what is being done to-day as far as soil conservation is concerned. That compels one, on the other hand, to pay tribute to the Minister and his Department.

We are not denying for one moment that there is a shortage. We know there is competition as far as salaries are concerned. Some concerns are flourishing and can afford to pay better salaries and in that way they coax some of our staff away. Nor do we deny that this Minister is fully aware of this salary competition. We are convinced that the Minister views this salary competition in a very serious light and that he is having the position investigated to see whether certain adjustments can be made. I am not one of those who are always looking for insurmountable problems and, if they cannot be found, to create them. We appreciate the problems which confront the Department to-day.

Some time ago we had a very interesting speech in this House and the theme of that speech was that our land was not getting more. I, too, briefly want to introduce a theme and that is that the carrying capacity of our grazing land is diminishing. I wish to emphasize the disturbing and increasing encroachment by useless and uneatable bush, shrubs and even grasses. When we as farmers study our grazing land it is disturbing to see to what extent uneatable bush has encroached on our grazing land. That bush is spreading to such an extent, unhindered, that it is impossible to control it. Every part of the country has vegetation peculiar to itself which serves no purpose. Some have been declared noxious weeds and we have an Act which compels farmers and others to eradicate those weeds. But there are many plants which are useless and uneatable and which have not been declared noxious weeds. Just think of the money, Sir, this country spends on the eradication of such weeds as the jointed cactus, the prickly pear, bur-weed, etc. As far as the others are concerned only research work is being done and I want to ask that more research work be undertaken in respect of the eradication and the combating of the uneatable and useless plants which are destroying our veld.

In my constituency, for example, we have the rhinoceros bush, the resin tree, etc., etc. We now have a new one. It has not yet been given a scientific name but the farmers simply call it “satansbos”. It manifested itself about four years ago. It started at a pig-sty where the pigs had eaten some imported food. It spreads very easily, Mr. Chairman. It spreads as easily upstream as it does downstream. The farmers in my area who have come to know the “satansbos” regard it as a threat to the entire Orange River project which we are so anxiously awaiting.

In parenthesis, I just want to thank the hon. the Minister for the way in which he has reacted to my representations in connection with this devilish bush we have in the district of Graaff Reinet. [Time limit.]

I want to plead with the Minister to put a stop to our most valuable natural asset, namely, efficient and trained people, being exploited by overseas countries and private undertakings. I see no reason why overseas countries and private undertakings should be allowed to entice our best research workers away by offering them higher salaries and better facilities. It is difficult to estimate the value to research of the services of one well-trained person who has the necessary facilities. We know that a big field still has to be covered in this respect; that research projects have been embarked upon and that many others have not even been embarked upon because we lack the people necessary to undertake them. It costs the State a considerable amount of money to train such a person and if such a person is cooped up in a little office somewhere or other without facilities and without staff he becomes dissatisfied and frustrated. It is not only a question of the salary he receives. That, of course, is an important consideration to all of them, as it is to everybody else but if they cannot do the work in which they are interested they become despondent and frustrated. If he is then offered a considerably higher salary with all the necessary facilities we lose his services. It is all very well talking about loyalty towards one’s own country and of ideals, but one cannot live on those and, if the necessary facilities are not available for research those things do not assist one either. It is not surprising, therefore, that these people join private undertakings where they are paid a better salary and where they have modern and scientific equipment at their disposal. The private undertaking regards it simply as a business transaction when it employs these people. Because of the results of the research work done by these people, results which are applied by those undertakings, their product is improved as well as their turnover which in turn means greater profits. If such undertakings find it profitable to employ those people with their special knowledge how much more profitable should it not be to the State to retain their services so that they can solve the multitude of agricultural problems which face us. Millions of rand are spent annually on various forms of assistance to the farming community but that does not solve the problem. That money can be spent more usefully by employing those people, retaining their services and by providing them with everything they need so that they can keep pace with the natural development of the country. We know the difficulties with which the staff of the Department have to contend. The hon. the Minister knows better than we do what those difficulties are and in what way they can be solved. We expect him to find a solution. If it is so important and essential to make sufficient funds available to a department like Defence, surely, it is equally essential that a department such as this is not hampered by a lack of funds. As I see the position it is lack of funds which, I do not want to say paralyse the department, but which hampers them in the work they are so anxious to carry on with. I do not think, as hon. members opposite apparently think, that extension services and research will solve all our problems. It rests with the farmer to find the solution. The State can do the research and render the extension services; it can make the knowledge thus acquired available to the farmer, but it still rests with the farmer to apply that knowledge in a practical and in the most intelligent way if he wants to make a success of his farming. If he cannot use that knowledge for some reason or other he will not make a success of his farming. I do feel, however, that the State ought to do a little more particularly to prevent our scientists and research workers from leaving our service. Not all of them go overseas; many enter the service of private undertakings in our own country. Those people are so valuable to us that we can surely make some plan to retain their services.

I want to continue a little on the lines followed by my colleague, the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) (Capt. Henwood), in referring particularly to rabies. I think the hon. the Minister has a duty to inform veterinary surgeons in general, especially the new ones coming into the country, that there is rabies in the country and that there are people at risk, not only the pets but the men who work with them, and that it is possible to be prophylactically immunized in the case of a human being. It is done practically without risk. I know the hon. Minister is going to say that that is a matter for the Department of Health. I agree, it is in a way, but the Department of Health has not many vets, and if the hon. Minister in association with the Department of Health issues a warning to all vets, I am sure it would be appreciated. I have met vets who have no knowledge of prophylaxis in humans against rabies, and I live in an area where we have had a fair amount of rabies, and the vets should be warned and told; the immunization is without risk and apparently if it is given every three years or so, is very satisfactory. He should bear that in mind.

I want to continue also on the question of another faculty of veterinary surgery. I am sure the hon. Minister had a fright when he heard there was a fire at the Onderstepoort research station, in one of the laboratories. The whole country is dependent on this one institution, and the least he should do is to make Alliston a manufacturing area as well as a diagnostic area. The hon. Minister knows, and I know, that you cannot buy anti rabies vaccine in the world. At one time when we searched the world, when rabies first appeared in the Zululand area—his department and my self working in conjunction—we could find 20,000 doses when we needed nearly 1,000,000 doses. I do not know what his department is doing about it. Rabies after all is perhaps not as important as other vaccines, which are made in the Pretoria laboratories, and to put all your eggs in one basket—I am sure the Minister of Agriculture will know what can happen to all the eggs in that basket if anything breaks the basket or the bottom drops out.

I hear there is still some talk of fusing the Faculty of Agriculture at Onderstepoort with the University of Pretoria. I would like the Minister to tell us how he feels about it. It is true that there are certain advantages to the faculty if it does fuse with the University, but I have always felt that the autonomy of this Department in its own research fit is the only Department of State which conducts its own research) has been of immense value. I do not believe that veterinary research, and agricultural research in general, in this country would have progressed as it has done if it had been under any other control but that of the department itself. I hope that this talk we hear does not mean that the autonomy of the Onderstepoort Laboratories is going to be passed over to some other body than this department. Whether they fuse the faculty is their own affair.

My hon. colleague from Pietermaritzburg (District) spoke vehemently in favour of a second faculty to be established in Natal, and I think the hon. Minister will realize that the heavy infection which we get in that subtropical climate, without a winter which can kill off the ticks and other parasites, makes the Natal area much more liable to disease, just as it does in humans and just as it does in horticulture. The entire absence of freezing of the soil, the absence of a cold winter, as a result of which the breeding cycle is not broken, is most important, and if a man wants to keep his animals and plants well and healthy in that climate, then he must produce an artificial system of keeping down the breeding of the parasites which grow so readily in that climate. The only means to do that is to have laboratories on the spot to study the various biological or insecticidal systems of controlling disease and not have it done at a distance. You have the example of the sugar industry which conducts its own research and which has its own method of attacking disease and preventing disease and has been very successful in all these respects, whereas the animal diseases which are controlled from a distance and the other plant diseases are not so well cared for. If the hon. Minister will only give the matter the thought that it deserves, if he will remember that he must have more than one faculty of veterinary medicine and that he must have more areas where he can manufacture the necessary vaccines etc., he will realize that the one place where he will have a good chance of doing it, and where it will do the most good, is the Natal area.

I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to speak about the Department of Agricultural Technical Services itself, about the functional existence of the Department and perhaps also about future developments which are going to affect the Department. In the past, as you will recall, Sir, it became necessary to sub-divide the Department of Agriculture. As a result the hon. the Prime Minister established the Department of Agricultural Technical Services in order to have a department which would concentrate specifically on providing training, extension services and field services. Then the Rautenbach Commission examined the composition of the Department as a whole, and now the Department and the way in which it will function in future has been subjected to a close scrutiny for the third time, and on this occasion it has been done by way of a report prepared by the Chairman of the South African Scientific Advisory Council, Dr. Mönich. This eminent scientist and adviser to the hon. the Prime Minister has published a report in which he makes a proposal which, in my opinion, is a very important one for the Department and of which the Minister should take note. This proposal by Dr. Mönich has three implications. The first implication of the proposal is that the agricultural faculties and the Faculty of Veterinary Science should be divorced from the Department of Agricultural Technical Services. That is the first implication and it is a very important one, because I think that if that should happen a gulf would develop between the training of our scientists at our universities and our Department, and one wonders whether the various universities and agriculture can benefit by that. I want to mention a few reasons why I think it is essential that this distinguished scientist reconsider his proposal as far as this recommendation is concerned. In the first place, if we divorced the Department of Agricultural Technical Services from the training given at our universities, it would have the implication that future scientific leaders, as trained at our universities, would be divorced from the practical side of agriculture. One wonders whether that could be tolerated.

The second implication is that the Department of Agricultural Technical Services has facilities at its disposal which the universities do not have, and that if a division were made the universities would therefore not have these essential facilities at their disposal for carrying out proper scientific research.

But there is also a third implication and it is this: If the universities had to create new training facilities because they had had to forfeit the existing facilities, the unit cost in respect of the training of scientists would be so high that I wonder whether the country would be able to afford it. Seen from those points of view, this implication is to my mind a very important one.

A second proposal was made by Dr. Mönich, in that he recommended that all basic research should be done at our universities. Sir, the Department of Agricultural Technical Services has its various institutes at which basic agricultural research is done, and if that proposal were accepted one would have the dualism that the bodies which had to do research would not have all those facilities at their disposal, and a second consideration is that the universities have been established primarily for the training of sutdents. I contend that, in view of the shortage of teaching staff and the limited facilities that would be available if Dr. Mönich’s proposal were accepted, the universities would be unable to take over all basic research functions. There are examples in various parts of the world which confirm the view that if basic research is divorced from practice it has the effect that one does not get purposeful research, because it means that scientists concentrate on basic research which either might have been left undone or is not very essential for the agricultural functions of the country. That is also the reason why I am of the opinion that if all basic research is transferred to the universities it will be a sorry day for the Department of Agricultural Technical Services. I do not think the universities can cope with it, nor do I think that our country with its slender available resources is able to bring about and to support this emanicipation.

But there is also a third implication which arises from the Mönich recommendations, and that is that a general master-council is to be established for agricultural and other research. He recommends that the direction of and responsibility for research in South Africa be taken over from the Department by a council which will also have the function of directing and planning research in various other fields such as fishing, forestry, museums, medicine, veterinary science, dentistry, agriculture, and so forth. In my opinion that will not be practicable and South Africa will not be able to afford it. Research in the agricultural field requires to be done expeditiously. It very often happens, and this I remember from my days as a student, that a problem arises suddenly— perhaps right in the middle of a harvesting season—and that there is no time first to consult with a council, but that immediate action must be taken. If a decision first has to be taken by a council which is not available to undertake this planning on a full-time basis but which only meets from time to time, I cannot see that that can be done without delays being experienced which can have a very detrimental effect on agricultural research. Another reason why it is important that that idea should not gain further acceptance is this: It is already one of the functions of the Department of Agricultural Technical Services to link up all its research projects with the practical side of things: that is why the various agricultural industries have their own advisory committees which can inform the scientific research worker of the needs existing in practice. Research cannot be purposeful if this coordinating function has to be performed by a council which does not stand at the centre of things and is not responsible for the day-to-day solution of problems. I do not think that function can be performed by such a council. But there is another very important matter and it is this: If such a council should take over the function of planning it would mean that the Department of Agricultural Technical Services, as constituted to-day, underwent unnecessary development recently when it was reorganized into various effective directorates. This functional composition of the Department into research, extension and field services would be broken down if what is proposed by Dr. Mönich should be put into effect. It would mean that the Department would be unable to carry out its functions properly. A further implication is that it would be very difficult for the hon. the Minister to hold his Department responsible for the actions of a council which had taken over the responsibility of the Department yet was not responsible to it, and also that he would have to accept planning and guidance from a council for whose actions he was not responsible. I just cannot see how that could be practicable. From an idealistic point of view it looks fine, but I hope that this side of the House will take a strong stand on the matter. We hold Dr. Mönich in high regard, but we can suggest to him that the Department of Agricultural Technical Services would only be detrimentally affected if a plan such as that suggested by him were put into effect. [Time limit.]

Hon. members opposite will surely not blame me if I do not react to their complaints but rather use my time to discuss a matter which lies close to my heart. A few weeks ago we listened with approval in this House to a speech by the hon. member for Humansdorp (Mr. Sauer), in which he pleaded for increasingly more research in regard to the wine industry. If it is necessary and essential in respect of the wine industry, it is certainly doubly so in regard to the wheat: industry, because one can do without wine but without bread one will die.

There is a great need for many more varieties of wheat, because the position has arisen that the economic future of the farmer really depends on the type of wheat he sows. The reason for this is that some wheat varieties suddenly leave the farmer in the lurch and he is therefore compelled to sow as great a variety as possible, but unfortunately we do not have that great variety available. The farmers are also inclined to concentrate on a variety which has resulted in a good yield, with the result that it deteriorates so much sooner. If, therefore, we have more reliable varieties we ought, by means of sowing judiciously, to go very far with those varieties.

We had the privilege a fortnight ago of visiting the Wheat Research Station at Stellenbosch, and let me say that we were particularly impressed by what is being done there, and we have the greatest regard and gratitude for what a handful of technicians have already achieved for the wheat industry under difficult circumstances. But we still feel that the efforts being made there should at least be doubled. The staff should be extended, however difficult that might be, and also the facilities available to them. We saw how they made plans and evolved their own methods. It is splendid. Now we know that work of this nature is very costly, but our wheat farmers are not simply asking the State to vote money for us. We are prepared to put our hands deep into our own pockets and at least to finance a large part of the costs of research from the wheat industry itself. That one cent levy we paid to the Wheat Board should again be levied, and then we can subsidize the research from it. But if it is necessary we can even increase it to 1½ cents or even 2 cents. We have no objection to making a contribution as long as it is used in the interest of the wheat farmer and for the future of this most important industry.

The task of the researcher is not only to evolve new varieties of wheat; that alone is a difficult and complicated task, but in practice it becomes so much more complicated because we also have to consider various soil types. A variety which is very successful in the Free State is perhaps of no use in Malmesbury, and vice versa. And there are so many various regions in our country, each with its own characteristics and requirements. If you will allow me, Sir, I should like to give a few examples. Take a variety like Impala. That proved excellent in our cool gravel soils, but its days are numbered and it is becoming useless. Sterling did particularly well in our sandy soils, but it seems as if its days are numbered, too. In our rich red soil areas Sokkie was incomparable. The farmers made a lot of money out of it, but since it has become useless we have not yet found another variety which does well in the red soil. The researcher is therefore compelled to breed a variety of wheat to suit practically every type of soil. Therefore we will have to have more experimental farms in the various regions in order to test these varieties. In this respect I should like to recommend the district of Albertinia to the Minister as a very suitable place for an experimental farm. It lies in the heart of the red soil area, and due to the lack of suitable wheat varieties farmers in those areas have had a very difficult time during the last five years. Some of them have been forced to their knees, and it is not due in the first instance to a low rainfall. During the past season I saw that the best stand of wheat we had for years resulted in the weakest crops. If a wheat variety like Flamenks had also been tested in that area, it would have saved the farmers much expenditure and loss. Here I particularly want to plead for the wheat-producing areas in the constituency of Mossel Bay. Whereas in the rest of the country there was a record crop, our crop was a failure, and it hit the wheat farmers hard. The only solution seems to be to make more varieties available to the farmers, and seeing that it appears that a variety in that area deteriorates sooner and becomes subject to rust more than, e.g., in the Swartland and higher up in the Western Province, that aspect of the matter should enjoy particular attention. I think researchers should concentrate more on the hard types, the so-called C types, in view of the fact that these types seem to be more resistant to rust and infestation through the air, like honey dew and other diseases. The finer types, the A types, with a high baking quality, soon deteriorate. Flameks, of which we had such great expectations, is a striking example of this.

In conclusion, I just want to say this. While we are discussing research and such-like matters, I just want to tell the Minister that the farmers in the South-Western Districts have particularly high expectations in regard to the experiment which is being made at Stellenbosch, where an attempt is being made to convert the straw of the harvested grain into pellet form as cattle feed. [Time limit.]

I want to take this opportunity to express my thanks and appreciation to the Minister and his Department for the research being done, especially in regard to the feeding of stock in times of drought. Drought has taught us in South Africa that it causes deep wounds. As these wounds slowly heal we also learn that we should make provision in our larder for the times when the seven lean years come along. Our farmers have learned that by having a smaller number of stock on their farms but by keeping better animals they can probably show a greater profit. In other words, it is more remunerative to feed expensive fodder to a high quality animal than to a low quality one. In this respect one is grateful for the experiments being conducted and I have in mind particularly the beef cattle performance testing scheme which is in operation and in regard to which in 1963 118 people co-operated, which number increased in 1964 to 210.

We are also grateful to note the initiation of the bull testing scheme, where experiments are conducted in the feeding of concentrated pellets and lucerne and achievement tests are made and that knowledge is conveyed to the farmer.

In view of the fact that South Africa is subjected to severe winters when the veld hay loses much of its value, and where we have periodic droughts in many parts of the country, and there are chronic droughts in other parts, the farmers appreciate all the more these experiments which are being done in regard to the feeding of stock to counteract the droughts. Now it is a fact that in those areas which are mostly subjected to droughts, the rainfall is of course low and that the cheapest forms of roughage such as mealie-stalks and wheat-straw and sugar-cane, etc., are not available there. The obvious method to adopt is to transport this fodder to the drought-stricken areas, but the problem is that the railage on the cheap roughage is proportioately very high because one can only load a very small weight of roughage on a truck. Therefore one needs a large number of trucks to transport it, and particularly in winter it is very difficult for the Railways to cope with all the requirements. Therefore I am glad to see that the Minister of Transport is also present here. It is obvious that a plan should be made in regard to transporting this rough-age. In this regard I should like to refer to valuable experiments, which have been mentioned here and which I inspected at the Elsenburg Agricultural College, where wheat-straw is mixed with other constituents and compressed into pellets. These pellets take up a quarter of the space as compared to roughage. In other words, for the same weight of rough-age in pellet form one now needs only one truck where formerly one would have needed four trucks. I want to ask that consideration be given to bringing relief on a larger scale to the drought-stricken areas in this way. It must be tackled on a larger scale under the guidance of Agricultural Technical Services. In those areas where roughage is available, it should be turned into pellets and transported to the areas where it is required, and it should be distributed possibly by the co-operatives. I take it that the Government will also render assistance in financing such a scheme. A scheme like this should be carefully planned. I understand that this matter also to some degree falls under Agricultural Economics and Marketing, but seeing that it affects both Departments I do not think you will blame me, Sir, for mentioning it, because I feel that Agricultural Technical Services can play a big role here also. We must make provision for the future, and there I want to associate myself with what was said by the hon. member for Gordonia (Mr. G. P. Kotze), who said that storage places should be established to store this fodder in pellet form for the lean years. I want to say that it would be best for us to assist these drought-stricken areas on a much larger scale and at a faster tempo than we are doing at the moment, and the sooner we can tackle water and soil conservation works there the better. A parent surely cares for his sick child first, and in view of the fact that the farmers in the drought-stricken areas are suffering, I feel that the State, although we are thankful for what has already been done, should do still more in regard to a permanent solution in the form of soil and water conservation. There are many places where a dam cannot be economically justified because there is not much irrigable land, but we should keep the water in the rivers. We want to conserve the water in the Northern Transvaal because many farmers there are dependent on the pumping of subterranean water, which is now diminishing. If we make dams and build soil conservation works on a larger scale, we will retain the water there. I want to ask the Minister seriously to consider making available dam-building machinery on a large scale in the Northern Transvaal so that the intensity of the drought can be broken by water and soil conservation. That area in the Northern Transvaal is young and the same amount of soil conservation work has not yet been done there that we find, e.g., in the Western Province. I want to ask that in those areas of the Northern Transvaal these works should be speeded up because that will reduce the intensity of the droughts and take the sting out of the drought. I know of exceptional cases where people were themselves able to tackle soil and water conservation works, and on those farms the effects of the drought were less intense. I also recently read an article in Organized. Agriculture about a person in the Rustenburg area who makes small dams and finances them himself, with the result that the intensity of the drought was broken on the farm. But the farmers cannot all afford to do this sort of thing and I want to plead earnestly that we should devote more attention to finding a permanent solution instead of the temporary measures of granting subsidies, which are highly appreciated but are only of a temporary nature.

Seeing that we now have the privilege of discussing the Vote Agricultural Technical Services, I think it is only right to express our great appreciation of the farmers who in recent years have suffered so severely from the drought. There are a large number of farmers in the country who have now been suffering severely for two or three years, and I want to tell you, Sir, that it is encouraging to meet them and to see how they accept the drought and how they are preparing for the future. I visited places in my area of the Lowveld where the houses stand vacant, but if the caretaker who remained behind takes one to the sheds one sees that the tractors and the ploughs are greased, and if one then ascertains where that farmer is and asks him whether he wants to sell his land, he says: No, I am just waiting for the first rains; everything is ready, and if the rain falls I will farm again. It is that type of farmer who constitutes the backbone of the country and who cannot be broken.

We accept that drought is one of the severest blows an agricultural population can suffer. It is something in regard to which man can do nothing, but it is also a matter which rights itself again overnight. It is therefore in my opinion not the greatest danger faced by the farmers of South Africa. It is a great danger but it can be solved in a short time. If it rains to-night the fertile soil of South Africa will show in a day or two that there is life. But there are two other dangers in this country which I regard as being greater even than the drought. The one is the negative course of behaviour of the United Party. I want to address myself specially to the hon. member who first spoke in this agricultural debate, and when I mention him I include all those who followed him and I certainly do not exclude the hon. member for Gardens (Mr. Connan).

The hon. member for Port Elizabeth (West) (Mr. Streicher) told us, and to some extent he spoke the truth, of the great shortage of technicians, veterinarians and extension officers, and the Minister has admitted that there is a shortage, and we all know there is. But what is now the duty of a man who partly speaks the truth and who knows precisely, as we all do, what the reason is for those shortages? If the hon. member were to tell me that he does not know what the cause of the shortage is, I would lose much of my respect for his intelligence, but because I take it that he well knows that the causes of these shortages cannot be solved by the Government overnight, nor could they be by hon. members opposite were they to come into power—because they all know it, and if they do not know it they did not deserve to be returned here by the electorate . . . [Interjections.] I say everybody in this country knows what the cause of the shortage is, and I take it that the farmers whom he represents, even though they are United Party supporters, have much more intelligence than to believe that the Government can solve these shortages overnight. What did we expect from the hon. member? We expected him as a Member of Parliament, and a worthy representative of the people, to give guidance to the farmers and to tell them how those shortages can be supplemented. I do not believe that there is a single farmer in South Africa who cannot find a solution for his problem in the shortest possible time. It is said that the information does not reach the farmers. The hon. member says that the results of the research do not reach the farmers, and that the pamphlets which are printed are being sold. In other words, what little information the farmer obtains he must buy from the Department or otherwise he gets nothing. I wanted to say at the beginning of my speech that I noted that with contempt, but contempt was not really the feeling I had; I had a feeling of pain because a representative of the people of South Africa disguises the correct facts, as the hon. member did. The hon. member ought to have told the farmers that there is no information which they cannot get. I challenge any farmer, if he has any stock diseases or difficulties in regard to grazing or crop diseases, and he wants information of any nature, and he just has enough intelligence, even less than the average, to write to the Department, then I guarantee that in the shortest possible time he will receive a reply and will get guidance, and he will be able to continue his farming operations. But the hon. member says the farmers are going insolvent as the result of the fact that they do not know that those services are available to them. Such a farmer should never have been a farmer; he should become a Member of Parliament of a party like the party opposite.

Then there is a second great danger, and that is the deterioration in the fertility of our soil. It is no use Technical Services working hard to preserve the fertility of the soil. One can travel through any of the four provinces and one will hear the grass cry. You know, Sir. there is a type of grass, “skreegras”, which grows on depleted soils. The dark brown locust does not even want to eat it. It creeps along the side of the road and it will face the danger of traffic, and if one asks it why it is not afraid of the motor cars it will say that death lies waiting for it on the other side of the road in that “skreegras”. If one wants to open one’s ears and one can understand the language of plants, one will find many places in South Africa where the mealies shout out that they are dying of famine. The yellow, dried-out mealie plant shouts out: Look at me; I am hungry because there is no nutrition in the soil. No Government can supply those nutrients; only the farmer can. The farmer must do his share. And here is a thought. Until we as farmers of South Africa are willing to do our share in the form of a levy or in any other form to build up a fund, together with the consumer who allows his taxes to be used by the State to build up that fund, and until that fund is strong enough to carry the farmer through his difficulties, until then we will suffer from drought. [Time limit.]

There is a particular need for a certain group of our students to get the necessary training, and I want to refer to three groups in particular, which are the officials of the Department of Agricultural Technical Services, prospective teachers of agriculture and prospective farmers. The prospective teachers have to take an ordinary four-year B.Sc. course, which is purely a science course, and after that they have to take a professional teacher’s course. Because of this long and extremely difficult period of study many of them are put off from wanting to fill those important posts of teachers of agriculture. The prospective farmers also have to enrol as ordinary B.Sc. students in the first year and take pure science subjects, and it is only after the second year that they are admitted to the faculty of agriculture, and then they still take science subjects, and not practical agriculture. The third group consists of the people who are required by the Department of Agricultural Technical Services and who are taken into service as apprentice technicians by the Department and appointed as technicians after four years’ training. There is, of course, also a gap between the four years of service training and the one-year diploma course at our agricultural colleges. I want to plead that if the University of the Orange Free State offers a degree course in collaboration with the Department of Agricultural Technical Services in order to meet the requirements of the Department, use should be made of it. It is certainly not the task of the Department of Agricultural Technical Services to train officials, and where this task can be carried out properly by a university which is prepared to undertake it, I want to plead that if such a degree course is offered in collaboration with his Department, the Minister should recognize it as constituting sufficient training for a person to obtain a direct appointment as a technician in the Department. The practical side can be done in collaboration with the Glen Agricultural College. Such a step will be of exceptional value to us. I am pleading for it because in the first place it may assist prospective farmers to take a practical degree course at our local university which will be of great value to them; in the second place, if such a three-year degree course is introduced, prospective teachers can go in for it, which will greatly reduce their period of study and facilitate their studies in that they will not be required to take unnecessary pure science subjects; and in the third place it will assist the Department to train its officials properly and will enable it to relieve itself of the task of training those people with which it is burdened to-day.

There is not much to reply to and I intend to be as brief as possible. Quite a few objections were raised yesterday and to-day and ideas have been exchanged in regard to the drought problem. One of the questions that was asked from the other side of the House was what research we have carried out in order to combat the general and periodic droughts which are constantly occurring in our country. I do not want to go into details, but I may just say that the research which has been done in connection with grazing and its utilization, also in collaboration with agricultural advisory committees in the various regions, and the research which has been done in connection with supplementary feeds such as urea and molasses and roughage, has not only borne fruit in South Africa, but has also received world recognition, and in that respect we have done pioneering work and have made much more progress than many other countries. As far as farm planning and the use of grazing is concerned, I just want to mention an example. In the Karoo region there are 3,700,000 morgen of water-course veld, 1,500,000 morgen of which are now being utilized, in accordance with soil conservation practices prescribed by my Department, while water-courses are being saved for times of drought. During the winter months of 1958 and 1959, respectively, 1,200 and 1,800 head of small stock grazed for six months on the Victoria West commonage, which consists of 472 morgen of water-course veld, and in subsequent years 1,000 head of small stock grazed on that veld every winter, while the average carrying capacity in the vicinity was one animal to three morgen. Then there is all the research work which has been carried out by the Department in connection with the combating of poisonous plants, and “vermeerbos” (Geigeria passeri-noides), on which we are still working and for which we have not yet found a solution, and a great deal of other control work which we are doing, such as the combating of locusts —have you ever thought how much less we would have been able to combat droughts if we had not had these effective methods of combating pests and insects? Since I am discussing this matter now, I want to deal with what the hon. member for Kuruman (Mr. du Plessis) asked, which was whether we should not consider regarding termites or white ants as a national pest. We have carried out research and we have very effective means of combating them, but I regret that we shall not be able to do this work at Government expense. There are many farmers who, both collectively and individually, are already combating ants very effectively. We shall supply information regarding methods of combating them, but if we have to accept all those pests as national ones which have to be combated at Government expense I do not know where we shall end. I am very sorry, but I shall not be able to accede to that request.

I just want to reply briefly to a few matters. The hon. member for Gordonia (Mr. G. P. Kotze) asked that we should consider granting some form of assistance in terms of the Soil Conservation Act to fodder stores. I shall consider that, but I cannot promise that we shall do so. The hon. member for Drakensberg (Mrs. S. M. van Niekerk) mentioned one important matter. She pleaded for the extension of the engineering services of the Department. In view of the rapid development and the mechanization we have had in our country in recent years I am sorry that we have not yet succeeded in providing more comprehensive and more efficient services in respect of this important aspect.

A new section for agricultural engineering services has been specially established in the Department and we are going to expand it as rapidly as we can. We are even expanding it so that it will even be able to undertake the work of testing various agricultural implements, so that we may assist the farmers in that respect as well.

The hon. member for Durban (Central) (Dr. Radford) as well as the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) (Capt. Henwood) spoke about rabies. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg (District) asked whether we had any programme for combating rabies in Bantu areas. When we launch a vaccination campaign we usually obtain the co-operation of the Bantu chiefs through the assistance of the Department of Bantu Administration, and those chiefs then bring their influence to bear on their tribesmen, and I must say that up to the present we have not had much reason to complain about the co-operation we have received from them. The vaccines are, of course, manufactured at Onderstepoort, which carries out the research work. The assertion that one of the effects of the vaccine is to render well-bred dogs, in particular, infertile after one or more injections will be brought to the notice of Onderstepoort. I cannot say whether Onderstepoort is already aware of that, but I can give the hon. member the assurance that Onderstepoort will go into it.

The other matter raised by the hon. member and the hon. member for Durban (Central) is the need for the establishment of another faculty of veterinary science. They maintain that that additional faculty of veterinary science should be in Natal. The hon. member for Durban (Central) said that he had heard that we wanted to amalgamate the faculty of veterinary science at Onderstepoort with the University of Pretoria. I just want to tell the hon. member that that faculty does not fall under the Department of Agricultural Technical Services, or let me rather put it in this way: The officials are on the establishment of the Department, but these faculties remain faculties of the autonomous faculties, wherever they may be situated. Therefore it is not a question of further amalgamation: to all intents and purposes there has always been amalgamation. Two years ago I was strongly urged to establish another faculty of veterinary science. Then Natal said that the faculty had to be established in Natal and Stellenbosch, of course, said that it had to be in Stellenbosch and Bloemfontein said that it had to be in Bloemfontein, and one cannot blame those people for adopting that attitude. But it is not for that reason that we are refusing to do it; it is only since last year that the facilities at Onderstepoort have been extended to such an extent that we are now able to produce 45 qualified veterinarians per annum, as compared with 30 per annum previously. We believe that it is much more efficient to create additional facilities for the training of an increased number of veterinarians at Onderstepoort, without detracting from the standard of training. It will be cheaper and we can still do it with ease. We may still be able to increase the number to 80, if it proves necessary. That would still be cheaper than to establish a new faculty. Instead of doing that, it is our policy to establish, and we are in fact establishing, diagnostic centres throughout the country, particularly in densely populated stock areas; we then station a veterinarian at each of these centres, where he can deal immediately with any diseases which may occur there, instead of first having to send all specimens to Onderstepoort for analysis. The disease can then be combated on the spot. In the case of diseases which require basic research, specimens are, of course, sent to Onderstepoort. We already have no fewer than five such diagnostic centres in Natal. I am afraid we cannot hold out the prospect of our being able to establish a second faculty of veterinary science in the foreseeable future.

Another one is needed in the Transvaal.

The hon. member for Pietersburg (Mr. Niemand) pleaded that we should speed up soil conservation projects in the Northern Transvaal, and I just want to tell him that all the facilities, the subsidies and the incentives which are available to the whole of the country are also available to farmers in the Northern Transvaal. They merely have to make use of them.

The hon. member for Bloemfontein (Dis-trict) (Mr. J. A. Schlebusch) raised the question of the training of prospective farmers, of teachers of agriculture and of agricultural technicians, who will have a shorter course than the four-year course in agricultural science which has already been introduced at various universities. I understood him to say that the University of Bloemfontein had virtually decided to or were about to introduce a three-year course. I am very glad about that; I think that is a step in the right direction, and I think that course is going to be very popular with the three groups he mentioned which want this training. While we are discussing university training I may just add that our agricultural faculties still have many vacancies for more agricultural students, but that apparently there are so many other professions which are more attractive than agriculture that we have not yet filled our agricultural faculties to capacity. Particularly at the University of Bloemfontein, which has the youngest faculty of agriculture and has the teaching staff available, there is an insufficient number of students. I want to ask hon. members on my side who are interested in agriculture and who believe that agriculture is one of the most important industries in the country, if not the most important, to use their influence to encourage their own children and other children to attend our universities to receive scientific training in agriculture. There are many bursaries available. Hon. members heard what the hon. the Minister of the Interior said here the other day, namely that he had made provision for fewer Public Service bursaries this year because between R15.000 and R25,000 which was available to students in the form of bursaries had not been used. If we have more students who want to equip themselves better for the future, I shall be glad if they are encouraged to study in an agricultural direction.

It is not only a matter of fees; the parents receive no assistance in respect of the students’ maintenance while they are studying.

Mr. Chairman, surely we have not yet reached the stage where our students have to be supplied with clothing and their food has to be placed in their mouths?

The parents cannot afford it.

I am not prepared to accept that there is such a large number of parents who cannot afford to pay for their children’s food and clothing.

Some of the matters that have been touched upon here are perhaps of minor importance, but another matter which I want to deal with and which has been raised here by the hon. members for Bethlehem (Mr. Knobel) and Soutpansberg (Mr. S. P. Botha) is the report by Professor Mönich. I have obtained a copy of that report from one of the members. I was not aware of the fact that that report was open to public inspection and that one could buy it from the Government Printer. This report deals with “A Study of the Organization of Science” and has been prepared by Professor H. O. Mönich, Chairman of the South African Scientific Advisory Council and Scientific Adviser to the Prime Minister. My interpretation of the heading of this report is that it must not be regarded as a report submitted by the Scientific Advisory Council to the Prime Minister or to the Minister of Planning and, through him, to the Government for their consideration. My information is that the Scientific Advisory Council will meet shortly to finalize the report. I may just say that I share the objections raised here by hon. members in regard to the proposals contained in this report. I have very serious misgivings about Professor Mönich’s recommendations, and hon. members may take it from me that I shall oppose some of the proposals most strongly when this report comes up for discussion in the Cabinet.

I think I have now dealt with the main points, and I shall leave matters at that.

Vote put and agreed to.

Loan Vote G.—“Agricultural Technical Services”, R860,000, put and agreed to.

Revenue Vote No. 22.—-“Agricultural Technical Services (Regional Services and Education)”, R 12,080,000, put and agreed to.

On Revenue Vote No. 23.—“Water Affairs”, R8,400,000.

Last year when we discussed this Vote I raised certain matters with the hon. the Minister in regard to the Department’s boring services, and at that time the hon. the Minister expressed disappointment in the farmers of South Africa in regard to the degree of gratitude displayed by the farmers for the services rendered by his Department. When the Minister expressed those sentiments I raised the question of the subsidy presently granted to farmers in regard to the boring services provided by his Department. I indicated to the Minister that since the introduction of the new tariffs, the farmer is placed in this situation to-day that if he has to bore three holes, the maximum number permitted by the Department, two of those holes being dry holes, and the one hole giving a return of, say, 200 or 300 gallons of water for drinking purposes, the original capital cost of the hole for which the farmer will have to pay will amount not to 100 per cent of the cost of the hole but something like 150 per cent of the cost. The Minister then said that he appreciated this difficulty and that he had given instructions to his Department to have the whole question of the tariff rates in respect of the services rendered by his Department reviewed, and he gave an undertaking to the House, and I take it, to the farming community of South Africa, that he would submit this whole matter to the Cabinet and that he would act fairly soon. The Minister also indicated that the cost of the additional relief that he would give to the farmers would amount to something like R250,000. Sir, we have serious drought conditions in this country and one would have expected a sympathetic approach from the Government towards those farmers who are located largely in the drought-stricken areas— I refer particularly to the Transvaal—and that something would have been done to offer relief to the farming community as far as these services are concerned. But what do we find in these Estimates? Instead of additional relief to the farmers, instead of a review of the present tariff-rates, instead of a re-consideration of the whole situation and instead of additional boring services for the farmers located in these drought-stricken areas, we find that in fact less assistance than ever before is being given to the farmers as far as boring services are concerned. There is an actual decline in the Vote of some R350,000 in respect of these particular services. Sir, I state the facts to indicate to hon. members the degree of sympathy displayed by this Minister particularly in the light of the undertaking given by him a year ago when these matters were discussed here, in respect of these particular services for which there is a waiting list of some thousands presently lying with the Department. Sir, why does the Minister not heed the advice of senior officials of his Department in the field and the pleas which have been made to him across the floor of the House? There is no doubt that we would not have been faced with this backlog if the Minister had taken the step which has been urged upon him for years, and that is to appoint a permanent geologist to the Department of Water Affairs, a geologist attached to the boring section of that Department. The plain fact of the matter is that under the present rebate and tariff system, the more misses there are in drilling for water, the higher the cost that the farmer has to meet eventually The percentage of dry holes will obviously decrease if the hole is bored on a site scientifically selected by a geologist. But that is not the position to-day. Large numbers of these holes to-day are bored by the Minister’s Department on a hit-and-miss basis. It is rather like relying on a water diviner. I know from my own experience and from the experience of other farmers that the position to-day is that when you apply for a boring machine, the boring inspector comes to your farm and says, “That looks like a good site, we will try it.” Sir, I can tell the hon. the Minister that these are facts. I know of one case where a boring machine of the Minister’s Department was located for a period of 12 months in a certain area. While there were numbers of other farmers in this district, which was drought-stricken, waiting for boring services, this machine stood on this particular farm for one year. Why? Because the sites selected were not scientifically selected. The sites were selected on the judgment of a boring inspector. The result, of course, is that you get a whole lot of misses. The hole is sunk 100 or 200 or 300 feet and when it is found to be dry another hole is sunk some distance away. Sir, I say to the Minister that what is needed is not only a review of the tariff system but of the operations of his Department, because it is a scientific fact that if a site is selected by a geologist or a geophysicist, the likelihood of a dry hole is considerably reduced. I repeat that if a farmer makes an application to the Minister’s Department for boring services and he has just one dry hole, he gets no rebate, no subsidy, at all. He has to meet 100 per cent of the cost and in most cases more than 100 per cent of the total cost. That is why there is so much discontent and so much dissatisfaction. Sir, my time is limited, but I ask the hon. the Minister to give serious consideration to the appointment of a permanent geologist in his Department so that before a machine is moved, before the rig is sited, that site will first receive the approval of the geologist. It should not be left to the discretion of a boring inspector. I know of a particular case where a site was selected by a geologist and where the hole was drilled to a depth of 180 feet; thereafter the rig was moved five times because the holes yielded no water. The farmer complained and eventually the Department sent out a geologist. The geologist put the rig back on the original hole and struck water after drilling a further 20 feet. But the machine by that time had stayed on that farm for six months. Sir, this is one case; how many others are there?

Then I come to another aspect of this report. I think it is highly undesirable to find in a report of this nature—and again I refer to boring services—that the total number of machines owned by the Department is 277. This includes various types of machines—-pneumatic drills, jumper drills and so on. The statistics given in the report reveal that in the course of the year only 244 of those machines were in actual operation. According to this report there is a delay of at least 12 months before the average farmer can get a boring machine. According to this report, there is a backlog, as far as applications are concerned, of something like 1,400. Applications are being received at the rate of 1,350 a year, and it is quite clear from these figures that the average farmer will just have to wait something like 12 months before he will ever get a boring machine. This also means, of course, that the Department requires more pneumatic drills. We know that the output of a pneumatic drill is considerably greater than that of an ordinary jumper drill or rock drill. It is perfectly clear that the machines owned by the Department have not all been kept in operation and I should like to hear from the Minister what the reason for this is. [Time limit.]

It is with pleasure that I use this opportunity of speaking on the Orange River scheme, one of the mightiest and largest in the world and the wonderful planning that accompanies it. If ever there was a scheme involving wonderful planning, it is the Orange-Fish River scheme. The planning was done not only by the Department of Water Affairs; it was done in co-operation with other Departments such as Education and Health, and with the Provincial Administration as regards hopitalization and roads, for example. A start has already been made with this fine scheme. It is a scheme which compares favourably with the Tennessee Valley scheme in America. We should like to thank the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs and his staff once more for the great progress that has been made over such a short period. We up there in the North-Eastern districts will be the first to reap the fruits of this undertaking. Contracts have been awarded for the building of 51 miles of tarred roads and for the construction of camps where the preparatory work is to be done for the building of the tunnel and the Verwoerd Dam. This preparatory work in itself has cost millions of rand. I should like to say here that there has always been wonderful co-operation between the Department and the action committees. I think if hon. members see what progress has been made there, they will realize what a good and strong Government can do to promote the interests of its country. Hon. members will recall that the hon. the Minister, in announcing the Orange River scheme, said that if we wanted to tackle something, we must do it on such a scale that it will make the world sit up. I should like to suggest that this scheme has indeed made the world sit up. It is a scheme that opens up new vistas for South Africa. The services of some of the best engineers in the world are being employed to carry out this scheme. We have the services of the most capable Scottish engineers, Australian engineers and engineers from other parts of the world at our disposal. One need only speak to those people to realize what wonderful planning is involved in this scheme. The engineers and other experts are at present engaged in the preliminary planning, and of course that takes time. I think hon. members will be surprised to see the fine camps that have already been constructed at the inlet to the tunnel. Those camps are equipped as well as any modern town. I think that if these camps could remain there permanently as tourist resorts, it would greatly benefit the State. I should like to add that there is excellent co-operation between the engineers and the farmers. They negotiate with the farmers about the expropriation of their farms, etc., and in general things are going very smoothly. Roads are already being built and thousands of rand have come into circulation. The three camps there will cost more than R3,000,000. As I have said, I am hoping that the modern villages erected there will be left there permanently; that they will not be demolished. I recently visited one of the camps at Tebus. When one sees how that camp was planned, how water was laid oh, how swimming baths have been built there, then one can indeed be proud of this Department and one can also be very proud of the Government that instituted this scheme. As I have said, the work being done at the moment is preliminary work. The large contracts will be given out later on. When one visits a place like Steynsburg one finds that there is no room left; it is fully occupied. The trouble is that there is a certain amount of difficulty as regards accommodation, but we are hoping that adequate accommodation will be provided there with the aid of various Departments, even if it has to be temporary accommodation. I should like to add that all railroad facilities are being extended, but I should like to ask that this work be expedited in a small town like Tebus, where the main camp will be. The farmers sometimes have difficulties in bringing their stock to the loading sites. Since the money has been voted, we are hoping that the position will shortly improve.

Then there is the short stretch of road between Steynsburg and Tebus. This is a Provincial Council road and although we have been given to understand that the entire road from Middelburg, through Steynsburg to Molteno, is to be built within two years, there is the difficulty that in the meantime that road is being wrecked by the heavy traffic using it. I hope the Department and the Minister will negotiate with the Provincial Administration so that that stretch of ten miles can be tarred, for in the rainy season it is virtually impossible for those roads to carry this heavy traffic. I would therefore request the hon. the Minister please to give his attention to this matter. The Provincial Administration has expedited many of its undertakings. Whereas originally it would have taken seven years, they have gone so far as to build a new hospital with 48 beds in Steynsburg. All this is being done because of the progress made on the Orange River scheme by the Government. The schools are full. We are also afraid that we will not be able to give the people who come there the necessary accommodation. We know that all the necessary facilities will be provided in the camps, facilities for education, etc. Transport from the camps to Steynsburg has already been arranged. We are very pleased to be able to say that these facilities will have been provided by the time the people move into those camps. [Time limit.]

It is with great appreciation that we have noted that an amount Of more than R40,000,000 has been made available for Water Affairs this year. We should like to compliment the hon. the Minister on the fact that he has succeeded in obtaining an increase of R6,500,000 under this Vote. I think this is something that has the support of every member of this House. We realize that investment in water conservation is one of the very best and most profitable investments in this country. We trust that in future the amount will be increased every year. During the past few years the Minister of Finance has been able to announce great surpluses. I think that when there is a large surplus the Government should adopt the policy of ploughing gack a portion of the surplus every year into water conservation. If the hon. the Minister put forward such a plea, we would strongly support him.

To a large extend it has been the practice in the past to spend money on water conservation in order to safeguard and stabilize existing farms. This was a good policy, of course, because one cannot have people who have already become established farmers leaving their land as a result of a water shortage and thus being uprooted. The Pongola and the Orange River schemes are schemes for the future; it is equally important that those schemes be commenced with because one cannot wait until it is too late. These schemes are important for future progress. But I should like to point out that we must not tackle the one thing and neglect the other. The safeguarding and stabilization of existing development in this country should continue to receive the necessary attention.

In this regard I want to refer specifically to two parts of the country which are rich in water, namely the Lowveld in the Eastern Transvaal and Natal. These areas have the highest rainfall, the most permanent rivers and consequently also the greatest potential to sustain a large agricultural population and to develop major industries for the future.

As regards the Lowveld of the Eastern Transvaal, little has been done hitherto as far as water conservation is concerned. I think the time has come to devote the necessary attention to those parts in this respect. We have strong-flowing rivers in these areas carrying vast quantities of water to the sea every year. In addition to that, those rivers are international rivers which are not found in other parts of the country. The Komati and the Crocodile River do not only flow through the Transvaal, but also through the adjoining territory of Mozambique. The Komati River also flows through Swaziland. As far as those rivers are concerned, it is essential that we make full use of them timeously. I think the practice, according to international law, is that the utilization of water is to a large extent regarded as the decisive factor when different countries lay claim to the rivers that flow through their territory. That is why I say that it is necessary to exploit the potential of these rivers timeously, by means of utilization, in order to strengthen our claim.

The Komati River has its source in the Transvaal; it flows through Swaziland and through Mozambique to the sea. There is a considerable development taking place in Swaziland. A great amount o>f water is being pumped out of the Komati River for development in Swaziland as well as for the growing of sugar. Where the Komati River leaves the Republic, along the Komati, sugar plantations are at present being planted and sugar mills are being established, whereas relatively little has been done in our territory as regards development. I think the time has come to devote the necessary attention to the conservation of the water of the Komati River. The same applies to the Crocodile River. The Crocodile River area has already been developed to a considerable extend but enormous further development is still taking place there. We envisage that it will continue to develop and that considerable industrial developments will still take place there in future. In the Elands Valley, which feeds the Crocodile River, a large pulp factory is at present being built and that factory is also using this water.

These rivers have the advantage that they are perennial, but during the past few years of drought the water level in these rivers has dropped dangerously. We must not sit back and wait until we are faced with an emergency in years of drought. We should give this matter our attention timeously. We say that it is an advantageous investment to act timeously rather than to wait until we are caught by a drought.

Another matter that is also receiving attention is the question of the obstruction of the flow of rainwater into our rivers and the harm done to our sponges and springs by afforestation. I think it is essential that the various Departments concerned should have the necessary consultations with a view to coming to an agreement as regards the protection of our water sources and rivers and in order to prevent the ever-increasing drop in the water level of our rivers. In the Eastern Transvaal, where there are large plantations, there is clear evidence that the water level in our rivers is dropping. Creeks which in former years were perennial are now drying up in times of drought as a result of the planting of trees in their catchment areas. I repeat that it is essential to have a through investigation, and that the Departments concerned should come to an agreement in order to safeguard our water sources.

I want to say a word or two about the Orange River scheme but it is something different from what the hon. member for Cradock (Mr. G. F. H. Bekker) has raised. In the development of the Orange River we have recognized certain prominent people who have played an important part in that development in that we have the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam, the Van der Kloof Dam and so forth. I have no doubt that, in the various stages of development, we shall have to find other names for various sections of that development. I want to leave this thought in the mind of the hon. the Minister: I think he appreciates the work done by the late Mr. Tom Bowker; I think the Minister will remember his persistence and it was real hard persistence. It was the work done by Mr. Tom Bowker which ultimately led to the development of this big irrigation scheme which is now in process. Can we not find a little nook in the development that is to come for Tom Bowker?

I fully agree with you.

I am very grateful for that. I think Tom Bowker earned it. I want to leave it at that and ask the hon. the Minister to give it a kindly thought.

Many schemes are in the process of development and they are very costly schemes. I want to put it to the hon. the Minister that in the process of this development we must not forget the smaller schemes. Some 18 years ago provision was made in the Estimates for the development of our smaller perennial rivers. The idea was to build small dams in those rivers so as to make adequate provision for the conservation of water. In that way that water could have been suitably used for the production of enormous fodder banks in those particular sections of the country. The one I refer to is the Kubusie River. That scheme was to have cost some R40,000. Twenty small weirs were to have been built in that river. Some of those conservation weirs, 6 ft. to 8 ft., can be erected at a cost of R2,000 and they will store some 100,000,000 gallons of water. I think that will be amongst the smallest of the weirs. Where can you provide cheaper water than with that type of conservation? The use to which that water can be put has only been recognized in the drought we have just experienced. Those rivers have now been reduced to a trickle or are not running at all, because the upper riparian owners along those rivers are continuing to irrigate. I do not want to be parochial, Sir, I can think of many rivers in this country of that type but I shall not do so. I think the hon. the Minister should apply his mind to the development of some of those rivers for the purpose of maintaining a supply of water. The water is there but it runs to the sea. If the water of those rivers were conserved drought conditions would be relieved in many parts of South Africa.

As one who represents a part of our country where water is one of our major problems, I hope I will be permitted to say a few words in order to emphasize our requirements there. Firstly, Mr. Chairman, I should like to say that for the past two days we have been listening here to speeches on the future of our soil and on agriculture in South Africa. A further statement I should like to make is that water is going to be the criterion as to whether our soil is going to be preserved and as to whether or not we are going to make a success of agriculture in South Africa in the future. I say this because whatever planning we may do, we cannot make a success of conservation farming unless we can supply adequate water in the various camps on every farm, nor will we be able to apply proper soil conservation on those farms; the topsoil will still be trampled loose and washed away to the sea.

Since I represent the extreme northern corner of the Cape Province, namely Vryburg and Mafeking, I should like to talk about boreholes. We notice that there is a decrease in the amount voted under this Vote for drilling for water. I do not want to express an opinion on this, except to repeat that farming in that area depends on water and more water. We know it is very difficult to obtain water in certain parts. Water is the limiting factor. I want to plead with the hon. the Minister to see to it that where drilling is done, the farmer is given scientific advice. At present, if a farmer gets a drill on his farm, the drilling inspector says: “I think we should drill here”, or the farmer says to the drilling inspector: “Drill here”. I think South Africa’s subterranean water—particularly in the parts to which I refer—is such that we cannot allow drilling for water to continue in this wasteful fashion. There must be scientific guidance by a geophysicist. The farmer should be told: “As long as you drill here you stand a good chance of striking water, but if you drill over there you will probably hit a reef and you will get no water.” That is my suggestion and I sincerely hope that we shall succeed in future in training such people to be of assistance to the farmer in indicating whether water is likely to be found.

There is another thing which I regard as even more important for development in that area and that is pipelines. Consider the amounts spent by the State annually in those parts that I have in mind—Vryburg, Mafeking, Kuruman, Gordonia, etc.—on drilling for water. Water is not unobtainable everywhere in those parts, although in some places it is very hard to get. The position is that one sometimes strikes water but that the hole is empty after three months or a year or three years. The farmers are drilling continually. Cannot we rather make water available to those dry areas by means of pipelines? It has been proved in other parts of the world, for example in Australia, that once one has gone to the expense of laying pipelines, there is no further cost. I should like to assure the hon. the Minister that in certain parts of my constituency the water drunk by stock is slow poison; it is of such poor quality that although it keeps animals alive temporarily they gradually waste away. They do not get the benefit from the water that they should get.

I want to thank the hon. the Minister for putting forward the suggestion here last year that in future it will probably be necessary to bring water to certain parts of the country by means of pipelines. On behalf of the voters in my constituency I should also like to thank the hon. the Minister for having assisted us during the drought to drill for water in areas where there was no water available with a view to transferring stock there from other parts where there was no water. It became evident once again how uncertain drilling for water is in those parts. A pipeline would have been the solution. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to have the courage, the faith in our future, to say that the time has come to lay pipelines. No time is as suitable as the present. If something is worth doing, it is worth doing at once. Let us bring water to those excellent meat-producing areas of our country by means of pipelines, so that our farmers will be able to farm more easily and more profitably.

Unfortunately I have been given only a limited amount of time; my time has expired. I hope the hon. the Minister will give favourable consideration to these few suggestions.

I should like to say a few words about the pipeline which is being laid from the Vaal River, just below Delpoortshoop, to the Fincham mine. I believe for the present the pipeline is to go only as far as the Fincham mine. I do not know whether the hon. the Minister is aware of the fact that there are two villages in particular which are experiencing a severe water shortage, namely Postmasburg and Olifantshoek. As a result of the mining development at Postmasburg, this village has expanded to such an extent in recent times that the water that they have there is quite inadequate. The position is even worse as far as Olifantshoek is concerned. Water is being carted from neighbouring farms. With the prolonged droughts one borehole after another is drying up. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister not to take the pipeline only as far as the Fincham mine, as tentatively planned, but to lay it further immediately so that the pipeline can also serve Postmasburg and Olifantshoek.

I want to go even further and ask that when the pipeline is laid down the Gamagara Valley as far as Hotazell, the village of Deben also be included, if necessary. I know that it is intended also to supply water to the farmers at the end of that pipeline and I am very grateful to the hon. the Minister. This is the 13th year that I have been getting up here to plead for a pipeline from the Orange River. I wish to associate myself entirely with the statement made by the hon. member for Vryburg (Mr. Labuschagne) that this is the only solution for those parts. This year, even more so than in other years, I am convinced that it is absolutely essential for these areas to have the benefit of that pipeline. If we had that pipeline this year, we would not have lost so much stock and we would not have been facing the difficulties that we have to deal with to-day. We have thousands of morgen of excellent grazing but because there is no water it is impossible to graze livestock there. If we could have a pipeline there, the problem would be solved not only for a year, as is so often the case with drilling, but it would be solved for all time to come, as pointed out also by the hon. member for Vryburg.

There is another matter that I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister, and that is the following: Some years ago it was decided to pay the farmers for dry holes. Everyone who had his name on the waiting list and who had water, simply cancelled his turn. The farmer whose need was urgent simply had to drill; two or three holes were drilled perhaps, holes that were failures, but to this day he is still paying for them. I do not consider that fair, Mr. Chairman. Now that the provision concerning payment for dry boreholes has been repealed, all those people who formerly took their names off the waiting list are putting their names back on the list again. People who had to drill out of sheer necessity are still paying, whereas people who now put their names on the list will not be required to pay. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to give serious attention to this matter and to meet those people halfway by granting them a remission of that debt.

I think that I should enter this debate at an early stage and break a lance for Natal because hon. members have pleaded so hard for other parts of the country. A year ago there were only two drills in the whole of Natal-—one in Zululand and the other one in Pietermaritzburg (District). When one hears an hon. member saying that there are farmers who have to wait for 12 months before they can obtain the loan of a State drill, Mr. Chairman, you can understand how long the waiting list in Natal is where there are only two State drills. I hear hon. members mumbling that Natal does not need the water! Natal has the greatest carrying capacity of the whole of the Republic. How can there be no need for water?

I think hon. members opposite are under a misapprehension. The hon. Minister and his Department have no geologists who can tell us where to sink a borehole. When we want geological information the hon. the Minister’s Department has to approach the Department of Mines and ask them if they will do him the favour of sparing the services of some of their geologists. When we consider that oil is being searched for to-day such as never before in the history of South Africa, two things become clear to us: Firstly, that the geologists are searching for oil and therefore do not have time for the Department of Water Affairs and, secondly, that the best drills, the air-drills of the Department of Water Affairs, are being used in this search for oil. The people who are searching for oil have no drills and they are using the drills of the Department of Water Affairs. [Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, I wish hon. members would find out what is really going on; they do not know what is going on.

The drilling service subsidies have been reduced from R2,675,000 to R2,434,000. This is a large reduction and I think the reason for it is that the same number of drills are not available because some of them are being used for other work.

There is another matter which I should also like to discuss with the hon. the Minister. This matter was raised a few years ago and the hon. the Minister said then that his Department was busy with something else but that he would go into the matter later. I am referring to the catchment area of the Tugela River and the potential of the Tugela River valley. I do not want to repeat everything that has already been said in this connection, Sir. People who are far more qualified than I am have already said all there is to say. A former Prime Minister of this country, Mr. Strijdom, said that 6,500,000 people could make a living in the Tugela estuary; that the farming potential there was unlimited, that there was enough water for large cities; that there was water there for eight industrial centres in their initial stage and that there would be about 10,500 acres remaining for the second stage, apart from farming. One so often hears hon. members opposite say that Natal does not need water, as though Natal does not experience droughts.

I want to tell the hon. the Minister—and he knows it—that Natal has been struck by terrible droughts over the past few years. The position is so serious to-day, Mr. Chairman, that unless relief is forthcoming the sugar mills will not be able to produce because there is no water in the rivers. It is not necessary to explain the effect this will have on the agricultural economy. The fact remains that we have to start conserving water in Natal, and I want to make a plea for the Tugela River. As I have said, people far more qualified than I am pleaded this cause 15 or 20 years ago, and because the hon. the Minister’s Department has almost completed the other dam at Howiek, I want to say that the next piece of work to be tackled should be the Tugela River. I also want to ask the hon. the Minister not to forget northern Natal. We have the Buffalo River there. Surveys were made there years and years ago and the Department has all the details. They need not make another survey. These surveys showed that a wall could be built at Charlestown to dam up the water over a seven mile stretch up to near Volksrust, and that that water could supply Newcastle, Utrecht and Dundee and that it could even supply the farmers at Vryheid by means of canals. You see, Mr. Chairman, we in Natal are faced with the fact that we cannot buy one bale of lucerne.

Why do you not produce lucerne yourselves?

Because we do not have the water. Really, is there no cream which the hon. member can rub on his hair to give him a little more common sense? We are faced with the fact that we cannot buy one bale of lucerne throughout Natal. This is not only the position in Natal. I understand that there is a shortage of lucerne throughout South Africa. I understand that people in the Cape Province, which produces large quantities of lucerne, are finding it difficult to obtain lucerne. It is time the hon. the Minister’s Department gave their attention to these two matters, to the catchment area of the Tugela River and Tugela valley and also to the Buffalo River. I hope that next year we will see a larger sum on the Estimates for drilling services than is the case to-day. This is the second year in succession that there has been a reduction on the subsidy in regard to drilling services. Mr. Chairman, if there are only two State drills in the whole of a province, then something is wrong.

With its Members of Parliament.

I agree with that hon. member because the leader of the Nationalist Party in Natal is a Member of Parliament for Natal. He is the member for the constituency in which I live and the dam I am advocating falls in his constituency. You see, one must be careful not to open one’s mouth and put one’s foot in it! The hon. member says that the Members of Parliament for Natal are not good enough, but Mr. Willie Maree is the Member of Parliament for Newcastle and I say that the position there is that the farmers are unable to buy one bale of lucerne. [Time limit.]

I do not want to pour cold water on the enthusiasm of the hon. member who has just sat down. I want to make use of this opportunity to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to the needs of the area which I have the honour to represent. We had the privilege previously of pointing out in this House that our Boland districts are being denuded of their population, and we now have an established community and an established farming system as I have indicated previously in this House, both under the Vote of the hon. the Prime Minister and under the previous Vote. In discussing the water potential of the Boland—we see the requirements of the whole of the Western Cape as part of one large pattern, including the requirements of the industrial areas and the Peninsula—we have previously drawn the attention of the hon. the Minister to the fact that there is a misconception in this regard and for the sake of the record I should like to bring this fact to the attention of the hon. the Minister once again. I have before me a report on a regional survey of the Western Cape by the Natural Resources Development Council. It was completed in September 1964 and I should like to direct the attention of the hon. the Minister to something in this report, a report which was apparently drawn up by a sub-committee of the N.R.D.C. I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to page 41 where the proposed distribution of water in the Western Cape is dealt with because I believe that a serious injustice is being done in this regard to the region I represent. It is a wheat area and it embraces four or five magisterial districts. The people there have to make use of rain water which is collected by means of dams. For human consumption rain water is collected from roofs or from some other surface. In recent years, because of soil conservation and grazing crops which have been planted and the fertility of the soil which has been encouraged thereby, as well as the contouring of the crop lands, we have experienced the position whereby the water no longer runs on top of the land as was the case in previous years, although the rainfall is the same. The hon. the Minister was a member of the Select Committee on the Southern Suburbs of Cape Town Water Supply Act Amendment (Private) Bill of 1950. The misunderstanding to which I have referred arose because of the evidence given before that committee by an official of the Department of Water Affairs. On page 104 of the report that witness is reported as having said (translation;—

The witness also said (translation)—

This is the opinion expressed by an official of the Department of Water Affairs in regard to a matter which I think requires earnest review because no matter how sincere and honest he may have been in giving evidence, his evidence is not based on the facts and on what is known. This evidence was peddled throughout the country and the development associations, which have recently brought pressure to bear upon the Department and upon the hon. the Minister in the Press and by means of interviews, base their allegations on that evidence. Although Shand stated in his report: “This attitude may have to be modified,” in its regional survey the Natural Resources Development Council gives official sanction to this remark, or rather, creates the climate for it to be the official attitude, I cannot neglect to reiterate here to-day that I wish to lodge my strongest objection in this regard on behalf of that area. Although we ourselves wish to see things as part of a larger pattern and do not want to be selfish, we do ask for a realistic approach in this regard. I had the privilege to be a guest a few months ago at a function which the farmer in my area who won the cup for the best planned farm, attended, and I want to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister, with great pride, to the fact that the Regional Director of Technical Services announced on that day that the miles of contour banks and the miles of fencing and everything done on that farm had been done without asking the State for one cent in subsidies. That is the way with people in those parts. Is this not perhaps the reason why they receive so little? Is this not perhaps the reason why opinions are expressed here by people whose knowledge is not based at all on expert or agricultural evidence? I cling to the statement which the hon. the Minister made on this Vote a year ago. I take as my anchor and my cornerstone this statement: “We shall give to other areas after their needs have been met, and a little more.” I want to ask the hon. the Minister please to take note of this. I have perused the debates on this legislation in the past and nowhere have I seen this matter brought to the attention of this House.

I should like to make a plea for irrigators about whom one does not hear very often in this House—the irrigators in the Sundays River Valley area. One does not often hear of them in this House because these irrigators more often than not themselves pay for all their needs and the improvements effected. Actually, I am preparing the way because the hon. the Minister has already promised me that he will interview the Sundays River Valley irrigators on 3 June and so I just want to bring a few matters to the attention of the hon. the Minister.

In the 1950’s the Sundays River Irrigation Board decided to undertake a large number of betterment works there. To this end they obtained a loan from the Department of Irrigation and they were also given a 50 per cent subsidy on the works. The works are now completed but they still have to pay the account. It is true that in 1956 these irrigators were under the impression that they would be able to meet these commitments, commitments which mean that they will now have to pay redemption and maintenance expenses as well as redemption on other loans which will increase the tax to more than R22 per morgen. Unfortunately, the price of the citrus which they export has not kept pace with the increased expenses. They now find that they have under-estimated and that it will be very difficult for them to pay this R22 per morgen. The work which they did there was to cement their canal. This canal at the moment serves slightly more than 11,000 morgen but the carrying capacity of the canal is far higher. Under the Orange River Scheme it is the intention to place a further plus minus 11,000 morgen under irrigation as soon as this scheme is completed or as soon as water is available for the Sundays River Valley. When these further 11,000 morgen are placed under irrigation, this canal, for the bulk of which the present irrigators have paid, can also be used for the new development which will be forthcoming in the Sundays River. One method of giving relief to these people, if it can be done, is for the State to take over a share in the canal at this stage and pay for it. Their capital burden would immediately be reduced in this way. I have been informed that the Irrigation Act does not make provision whereby the Department can purchase a share in water works. The Department of Irrigation can make over a share to an irrigation board or to other bodies, but it cannot buy them out. If this is the case, these people are still in the difficult position of having to carry this heavy burden and pay the redemption, while the Department of Irrigation will eventually receive the benefit of that canal when it makes use of it, although these people have paid for it. I hope that under the circumstances the hon. the Minister will see his way clear to give these people a considerable amount of relief bearing in mind the fact that an amount of R22 per morgen is an amount which these people will have difficulty in paying having regard to the existing export prices for citrus, particularly because there is a lack of water, so much so that they can only irrigate two-thirds of their scheduled land. In other words, their actual tax amounts to about R33 per morgen when one considers how much land is actually under irrigation. I trust that the hon. the Minister will see his way clear to give some relief in this regard.

There is another matter which I should like to bring briefly to the attention of the hon. the Minister and this is in connection with the artesian basin and the control over subterranean water in the vicinity of Uitenhage. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that the regulations which are applied there in respect of people to whom permits are issued to drill for water in that artesian basin and in the controlled area, are impracticable because they make drilling so expensive that people do not see their way clear to make use of the permits granted to them. I want to add that the whole question of control there is still causing a great deal of confusion and trouble. It does not seem as though the Department has already made a survey in terms of which the amount of water available in that controlled area can be determined, how much water can be used by the owners there without the basin being pumped dry and the amount of water that can be used if it is divided up fairly. We understand the difficulties of the Department and of the hon. the Minister. It is difficult enough to distribute surface water which one can see, and I take it that a distribution of this nature in regard to subterranean water must be so much more difficult. I shall appreciate it if the hon. the Minister will have a further investigation made in this area in order to determine how much water can be allocated per morgen and in order to bring about a more even distribution of the available water in that area.

The Minister by regulation has declared certain areas restricted areas for boring for water, and in particular he did that by regulation in the Rustenburg District. Now that has greater consequences than just restricting the right to bore for water, and I want to bring an example to the notice of the Minister, because I think that something should be done about it. When a farmer applies to the Land Bank for a loan, he is granted that loan (if it is favourably received) with the proviso that he can provide a certificate from the Water Affairs Department that he is allowed to bore for a certain amount of water, and in a case which has come to my notice the farmer called on the Water Affairs Department, having been granted a loan by the Land Bank, and asked for the certificate. In the first place he found that the department had lost his file. So he could not get the information readily. I may say that the officials were very helpful, very sympathetic and promised to clear this matter up as soon as possible, particularly as in the file was already the information required as the property had been inspected. What happened? The particular applicant for this certificate waited from five to six months before a reply came from the Department of Water Affairs, and a certificate was provided. All that time he was waiting for financial assistance from the Land Bank. Why did he go to the Land Bank? You go to the Land Bank because you can get more favourable terms than you do outside, or because the bank is pressing you, or your creditors are pressing, and you apply to the Land Bank for assistance if a farmer wants to consolidate his position. He gets more favourable rate of interest and more favourable conditions in respect of a loan. All that time, simply for the lack of a certificate, he had to wait before he could get the loan, at some cost to himself because of the difference in the rate of interest. I do not think that is good enough. I have cited a particular case, but I am informed that there are many cases of that sort. In fact what has happened is that this particular area of Rustenburg has been declared a restricted area, and the Department of Water Affairs, it seems, has no hope at all of managing it, inspecting it and controlling it, because in this instance that I have stated, the farmer concerned said: “But I can go on boring; it is being done in the district ad lib Despite the fact that it has been declared a restricted area, this man said that people go on boring. It is droughtstricken. The farmer wants water, and he applies to the department for a certificate to state how much he can bore for and where he can get water. He cannot get a reply. It is well known that that is happening and that they go on boring. From inquiries made it would appear that the department cannot control it. They have not got the inspectors, they have not got the staff, they have not got a hope of controlling, it. I believe it is the right and proper thing that it should be controlled, because if you look at the figures, produced from time to time, in regard to the water table, you find that it is going down and down until the boring operations that take place have to go deeper and deeper and deeper, with less success than previously. But the farmer wants to know where he stands, and in the cases that I bring to the notice of the hon. the Minister there are serious repercussions. It is not just a question of restricting the right of the farmer to put down his borehole, but is embarrassing him financially when he has made an application for a loan to the Land Bank. In the case I have mentioned, the Land Bank eventually had to write to the Department of Water Affairs, to get the certificate because it could be got in no other way. I think the Minister must look into that. I accent that they are doing good work, invaluable work in an endeavour to assist the farmers, but let us not have this sort of thing which quite unnecessarily involves the farmer in financial loss and embarrassment.

We as Whips often find ourselves in hot water with our members and so we can speak with authority in regard to irrigation matters. I also want to break a lance for irrigators, particularly those under the Hartebeespoort Dam and, by so doing, to bring a matter to the attention of the hon. the Minister which I think is of vital importance to our farmers because it is under the State water schemes that our farmers have small economic units and concentrate on intensive agriculture and are particularly dependent upon those schemes for water. As a result of a protracted drought, people are often under the impression that it is only those not covered by irrigation schemes who are so hard hit. It is true that these people are hit harder than the farmers under the schemes but it is also true that after a period of some years during which the flow of water continues to dwindle, irrigation farmers on the thickly populated settlements and under irrigation in general are also very hard hit. In the short time at my disposal I should like to bring a few thoughts to the attention of the hon. the Minister. For the past few years the Hartebeespoort Dam has received a considerable permanent flow from municipal and industrial sources on the Witwatersrand, and, Mr. Chairman, as you know, the Witwatersrand receives its water from the Vaal River. I notice from the White Paper on the Vaal River conservation project that the water resources of the Vaal River are heavily taxed and will remain so. I want to ask the hon. the Minister in the first place to retain the status quo regarding the effluents which flow near the Hartebeespoort Dam as being the prerogative of the dam. There is a second request which is very important. I want to ask the hon. the Minister, if possible, to allow a larger volume of those purified effluents to be discharged in the catchment area of the Hartebeespoort Dam. If he will do this, it will supplement the water supply even more. Thirdly, I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is not possible to have an investigation made into a project to obtain water from the catchment area of the Vaal River and to lead that water to the catchment area of the Hartebeespoort Dam. If these three requests can be granted, I am convinced that they will greatly assist the farmers under the Hartebeespoort Dam and thus create a prosperous farming population with the ability to resist protracted droughts. In making these three requests of the hon. the Minister, I do not want to underestimate what has already been done. I know that the Department of Irrigation is very sympathetic. I remember that although the dam was built in 1923 it was this Government and this Department which supplemented those water supplies in 1925 by cementing the canals. In this connection I want to say that a start was made in 1955 on the concreting of canals in order to prevent seepage losses in the canals and in this way to make better use of the water in the dam. Besides the concreting of these canals a programme of drainage works was tackled which involved the building of about 35 miles of drainage canals. It is often said that the Government is doing nothing to combat droughts. I just want to show what the Government has already done to save water. About 20 miles of these drainage canals have already been completed and it is anticipated that the full concreting and drainage project will be completed by the end of 1966. The concreting and drainage programme alone has cost R4,200,000 and when it is finished I think it will have cost R4,700,000. This amount of R4,700,000 has been spent on the Hartebeespoort Dam canals by the Government since 1925 chiefly with the idea of eliminating losses in the old earth canal system and in this way the water available to farmers under the scheme has been increased because surveys show that a large amount of water was previously lost in the earth canals through seepage.

I mention these things simply to show that the Department of Irrigation has gone out of its way to have the water supplies in the Hartebeespoort dam used as effectively as possible. But there is another important point. There is a large amount on the Estimates at the moment for raising the wall of the dam. The present proposal is to increase the full supply height of the dam by building 10 radial crown sluices of steel, each 8 ft. high on top of the existing crown of the dam outlet. This will increase the net carrying capacity of the dam from 58,220 morgen feet to 75,060 morgen feet and it will mean a larger guaranteed supply of water to the scheduled surface area. The canals were cemented in the past and now we have, the raising of the dam wall. This proves that this Government is making provisions for the combating of drought conditions. If besides this the hon. the Minister can see his way clear to comply with my three requests, I am convinced that we shall remain deeply grateful to both him and his Department.

I want to inspan my two cart horses again because they pull so well together. The one’s name is Water conservation and the other’s name is Water control, and the one cannot progress without the other. During his maiden speech the hon. member for Edenvale said that land was not increasing. This was a statement which gripped all of us because it is so true. I want to say now that water is not increasing but is becoming less, and that water throughout the country, both surface and subterranean, particularly in my constituency, is becoming less and less. That is why it is so necessary for the available supplies to be conserved, controlled and judiciously used.

May I ask a question?

No, I do not have much time. The need for water for watering stock had become a very real problem over the past years, so much so that there are farmers in the Marico district who have sunk 34. boreholes on one farm and have struck only a little water in four of them. There are farmers who have trekked with their stock because of the drought. They own large farms but cannot bring their stock back because there is no longer any water on those farms. The water table has fallen and the boreholes have dried up. There is a growing need in other areas for irrigation schemes and a, number of applications have been made in this regard. I want to mention the Selons River scheme, the Polkadraaispruit, the Dwarsspruit and the Brakspruit schemes for irrigation purposes. Another very important scheme applied for by the Zeerust District Farmers’ Union, the Thabazimbi Farmers’ Union and the Saamwerk Farmers’ Association is the Eerstepoort scheme in the great Marico River. This scheme is also supported by the Transvaal Agricultural Union and they have already submitted a memorandum in this connection to the Secretary for Water Affairs. This is a scheme which it is intended to build at Eerstepoort to obtain water for irrigation purposes but mainly to distribute the water throughout a large portion of the cattle area at Marico, Rustenburg and even at Thabazimbi for stock watering purposes by means of a pipeline system. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to give earnest attention to the implementation of this scheme, even initially as an experiment. The hon. members for Vryburg (Mr. Labuschagne) and Kuruman (Mr. Du Plessis) advocated the construction of pipelines from the Orange River to the dry parts of their constituencies and we have just heard the hon. member for Brits, (Mr. J. E. Potgieter) advocate a pipeline to lead water from the Vaal River to the Hartebeespoort Dam. I want to say that more should be done in connection with the conservation and distribution of water in those parts of our country which have very little water and I want to ask that an experiment be made at Eerstepoort in regard to its use as a dual purpose scheme. If that scheme succeeds, and it can succeed, it will be an incentive to the Department to tackle similar schemes in other stock areas.

I said at the outset that water was becoming less, that it is not increasing, and when I say this I am in the good company of people who have a knowledge of this problem. I should like to quote what has been said by Professor J. R. McMillan, the Dean of the Faculty of Agriculture at the University of Sidney, Australia. His theme was “Shortage of Water Increasing”, and, inter alia, he had this to say—

If this is the case in Australia, where climatic conditions are very much in conformity with ours, and if a man like Professor McMillan states that water is becoming less and less throughout the world and that it must be conserved, particularly for the agricultural industry, then this is even more, true in our country. When we consider that the average consumption of water in the cities is 55 gallons per head per day and that in our rural towns it is from 25 to 30 gallons, and that every ox needs from 10 to 15 gallons of water per day, a horse, 6 to 8 gallons and a sheep from 2 to 3 gallons, and if we consider that the value of water per 1,000 gallons is estimated at R5.60 for industry, only 10 cents per 1,000 for irrigation and R3.80 per 1,000 gallons for stock watering purposes, we realize how much water we need to maintain our growing industries, particularly agriculture, where so much less is produced per volume of consumption. That is why I want to advocate schemes such as the Eerstepoort scheme I also want to advocate the intensive conservation of water and its careful distribution. These real needs must be given far more attention by the Department, particularly in the areas where there is very little water both for irrigation and stock watering purposes, although there are favourable opportunities for conservation.

I should like to follow the example of the hon. member for Hottentots-Holland (Mr. de Villiers) and refer to the very important report which recently appeared in regard to the regional survey of the Western Cape by the Natural Resources Development Council. The future of this very important complex of the Western Cape is looked at from various angles in this report. When one analyses the report one notices that they constantly return to the basic premise that water supply is a sine qua non for the future of this whole area. They have this to say on page 39 of the report (translation)—

It is true that since the announcement of the Orange River project we have wiped the sleep out of our eyes in the Western Cape and we learn to-day of various pleas that are made for the supply of water by various complexes within this larger whole. There is the Berg River complex, the lower Berg River, the Upper Berg River the Sonderend River, the Twentyfour Rivers complex, the Breede River complex and others. In the advocating of these various schemes there is sometimes some mutual jealousy which is noticeable as well as a little tension, as has been proved here by the hon. member for Hottentots-Holland, and quite correctly so, having regard to his angle of approach. I want to put this important question to the hon. the Minister. Has the time not come for the Government to come forward with a detailed overhead plan of the water potential of the whole of the Western Cape, in other words, a plan like the Orange River project in which all the facets of water conservation throughout the Western Cape will form a whole? Everyone realizes to-day that the liquid gold of the Boland, as I should like to call it, its water resources, cannot be developed by individual farmers or communities or by municipalities. The development of this most important asset is of such a nature that it can only be tackled as a large project jointly and under State guidance. The announcement of an overhead project of this nature in which all the various facets can be tackled will give a new stimulus to the Western Cape as a whole. Let me say that a vigorous Western Cape is not simply desirable from a Western Cape point of view; this is the most important stronghold of the White man and the time has come for us to give more thought than ever before to the question of water conservation in this complex. It is with this in mind that I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether we should not consider this Western Cape complex from a wider point of view and have a planned project by the State a project which will include all the facets of future planning.

Sir, it has been a struggle, but after 50 test matches I have won the green and gold! I have in my hand a document which will enable you to understand the struggle which I have waged. I have here a pamphlet, the “Zuidafrikaans Landbouw Journal” of 1914. In it is an article on the results of the worst drought in Waterberg, and the writer is Eugene Marais. This was 51 years ago, and we have the same position again. Eugene Marais says (translation)—

I should like to return to the drought in Waterberg and read what he has to say in this regard (translation)—

It is a requirement of the heart on my part to place a few thoughts in the midst of the Committee in connection with conditions in Waterberg where the position is such that as a result of the drought many of the farmers have had more than ten advance loans on which they have not yet paid interest or capital. The Department of Social Welfare has already instituted a maintenance loan scheme there of R52 per month per family, free of interest, which they can repay at a later stage when things improve. Two weirs are being built in the Palala river, one at Susandale and one at Visgat, a third is to be built later. Our people are applying for work there, as happened in 1933 at the Rus-der-winterdam when farmers worked for 3s. 2d. per day. I should like to express my particular thanks to the hon. the Minister and the Secretary for Water Affairs, as well as to Mr. Schlotfeldt with whom I had discussions in regard to conditions there, who have said that positive efforts will be made to assist these people. I want to plead most passionately that the farmers in this area be given the opportunity to earn something on the building of these weirs. I am pleased to see that the Secretary for Water Affairs has already informed me that through the medium of Mr. H. P. Voster, Grootpan, P.O. Marken, the farmers can contact the engineer, Mr. Krige at the Glen Alpine Dam to obtain work on those three projects so that they can keep body and soul together. Both Mr. Voster and Mr. Krige have been informed in this regard. There are prospects for the Moerdyk Dam in the Palala, for which we are very grateful. We do not know when this will take place. We have also received reasonably encouraging news recently in regard to Magol, and we should like to see this plan being accelerated in order to promote agriculture and animal husbandry but also as far as the colossal development which is possible at Ellisras in regard to coal is concerned. We hope that those developments will put new life into Waterberg and make it what we knew it to be in earlier years.

In order to give the House an illustration of how dry it is there, I want to say that we are starting to drill for water for the school children at Nylstroom. There are four schools there with nearly 3,000 pupils and there is hardly any drinking water left for them. Up to the present, four boreholes have been sunk with the friendly assistance of Water Affairs. These boreholes are producing about 500 gallons and are all about 500 feet deep. The Town Council also had some wells sunk and have up to the present obtained 1,700 gallons per hour but it is estimated that we will need at least 22,000 gallons. Water Affairs assisted us by providing an air pressure drill in order to drill for the school and the public so as to supply us with that vitally essential item which is gradually disappearing, water.

To conclude I should like to refer to a plea which is continually being made—we sometimes come up against the objection that these may possibly just turn out to be so many evaporation basins—and that is that we must have small dams by the hundreds to prevent our water running away to the sea. I want to conclude by mentioning the question of dry boreholes and the cost in this regard. I am very grateful for the attention that has always been given to the representations we have made. The latest plan for local relief would not have been successful because it would have had repercussions among the broader public. That was why Water Affairs could not comply with our request. But I have learnt with gratitude that the Department has been instructed to try to work out a new scheme to assist farmers. No details are available but we are waiting expectantly and confidently in the hopes that a change will be brought about in regard to the question of payment by farmers for dry boreholes.

I should like to make use of this opportunity in the first instance to thank the hon. the Minister and his Department very much indeed for their swift action during the recent drought at Aliwal North. When I applied for a drill, it was made available within six weeks. We are very grateful in that regard. I can give the hon. the Minister the assurance on behalf of the public and the farmers that everyone is very grateful for this swift action, because these people needed the drill urgently. It speaks volumes for the Department of Water Affairs which is a very large Department with many difficulties. I see that an additional amount of about R3,500,000 is being made available to the Department this year. When we consider that 50 projects are under construction and ten new projects to an amount of R40,000,000 have been placed on the Estimates, including the Orange River project, then this is not a large amount. Our future depends upon water conservation. Periodic droughts have taught us one thing and that is to conserve water, and if we are not prepared to do so in the future, things will go hard with us. We speak of fodder banks. I believe that every farmer should provide his own fodder bank on his farm, but during the past drought, the State water schemes met those needs to a large extent. I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention particularly to the north-eastern Cape were we have a number of rivers with a permanent flow such as the Umzumvubu River and the Amabela River, as well as others. We have about 75 to 80 square miles of irrigable land, some of the most fertile land in South Africa. At this stage I do not want so much to urge the building of dams but I want to make this point. It is necessary for us to strengthen our White population on the boarders of the reserves. It is a bad thing in other parts of South Africa to have depopulation of the platteland, but if the depopulation along the borders of the reserves increases, it will be fatal. That is why I want to ask the hon. the Minister to give his attention to this area so that we can improve agriculture there. That region does not hold much for us in the geological sphere. We hope and trust that the hon. the Minister and his Department will give their attention to this matter.

I want in the first place to thank the hon. the Minister and his Department for what they have already done for my constituency and for what they will do in the future. But I cannot neglect to appeal to the Hon. the Minister for a dam at Barrydale. The hon. the Minister knows those parts. The Huis River runs through the town and much of its water flows to the sea. There are from 1,000 to 1,200 morgen of the best land in the Republic there and if those people could irrigate twice a year it would be of great value to them.

I should like to associate myself with what has been said by the hon. member for Hottentots-Holland (Mr. de Villiers). The Sonderend River runs through his constituency and mine and flows into the Breede River there. The areas of Caledon, Bredasdorp, Riviersonderend and Swellendam are no longer crop areas as such because the people are changing over to Merino sheep. Those areas are all under clover to-day. I want to ask for a pipeline to lead water from the Sonderend River to those parts. There are summers when the water level in the dams is low. The lower the water level becomes, the worse things become because the people have to use that water for domestic purposes as well. They build cement dams and lead the water off their roofs. If they can obtain water to fill their dams in time of drought by means of a pipeline, and even to fill their reservoirs, they will have a great future. They are going to need far more water in the future than is the case at present because the herds of stock there have almost doubled over the past few years, particularly since they have been making use of dryland lucerne.

I also want to discuss the Heidelberg- Ruggens area, because this also falls into my constituency although part of it falls into the Mossel Bay constituency. Those farmers are to interview the hon. the Minister one of these days. This is why I like the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs. I am not casting any reflection upon any of the other Ministers but I am sure there is no other Minister who is plagued as much by me and my voters as is the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs. During this Session alone he has met numbers of deputations and I have a record of a further four which he still has to meet, but he has not once refused to meet a deputation. He turns down less than half of the applications he receives but he has never said “no” to me. The hon. the Minister is very tactful with these people and they are very satisfied.

I have so often pleaded the cause of the Berg River valley in this House as far as water is concerned that I do not want to cover the same ground this afternoon. I prefer to thank the hon. the Minister for what he has already done in the Berg River valley but at the same time I want to emphasize a few aspects of why it will be so profitable economically to tackle a large water scheme for the Berg River valley. It will be profitable for two reasons, firstly, because we are dealing here with products which can carry a high water tax, and secondly, it will be profitable economically because we have a high rainfall in this area and therefore only need additional water for three or four months of the year. We can therefore do far more with 1,000 gallons of water than any other place in the country can. But it is not necessary for me to tell the hon. the Minister these facts because he knows them. I want therefore to ask the hon. the Minister very courteously whether he cannot at this stage give us a progress report in regard to what his Department is doing in respect of a larger water scheme for the Boland. A little bird has told me that the Department has already progressed a long way with the plan for a larger scheme which will include not only the Berg River valley but the Sonderend River valley and even the Eerste River valley. I shall therefore greatly appreciate it if the hon. the Minister can tell us briefly how far his greatly esteemed Department has progress with this planning. We are looking forward to it eagerly.

There is only one further matter I wish to raise in the short time at my disposal and I should like to ask the hon. the Minister for his urgent attention in this regard. We do not have so much water that we can waste it and in my opinion far too much water is wasted in our cities. I wonder whether the time has not come for the hon. the Minister to appoint an official with a flair for advertising for this sort of work so that he can begin teaching our city dwellers to waste less water. I want to start here in the parliamentary buildings. When we wash our hands in the washroom we never put the plug in the basin; we simply turn on the tap and let the water run. The modern sanitation flush system in our cities where one simply presses a lever and the water keeps running, wastes far too much water. The upshot of the matter will be that the cities will say that they do not have enough water and then our farmers will not be able to have water for irrigation. That is why I want to ask the hon. the Minister to earmark one of his officials to train our city dwellers to waste less water. When one considers that 55 gallons per head per day is used in our cities, one wonders how many more fruit trees and vines we would be able to irrigate if all these people used only 35 gallons instead of 55 gallons. We would then be able to produce a great deal more and this would be to the advantage of the whole country.

We are very grateful for this opportunity to participate in this debate. We are very grateful for what is taking place in the Orange River estuary. I can give the House the assurance that the developments there are greatly appreciated by the communities living on the banks of the Orange River. It is true that we actually live above those conservation dams in the Orange River. Although we may perhaps not derive as much direct advantage from what is taking place in the Orange River estuary, we do realize that there are particular conditions in those catchment areas to which attention must be given and I should like to make a very earnest plea to the hon. the Minister in this connection. I should just like to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to the fact that a little more than 99 per cent of the land in the catchment area of the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam is privately owned; in other words, the owners themselves farm that land. When we consider that the amount of silt carried by the Orange River is very large indeed, we know that the quantity of silt which the Orange River will carry with it in years to come will create serious problems for the Hendrik Verwoerd Dam and the dams lower down.

Because this land is privately owned I want to ask the hon. the Minister of Water Affairs to contact the hon. the Minister of Agricultural Technical Services and ask him to consider the possibility of the establishment of an experimental farm or farms in that area so that the necessary research can be done there, research in regard to the peculiar characteristics of the farming operations there. In that way we shall be able to give guidance to the private land owners in that basin in regard to the methods which they should apply and in regard to the practice of conservation farming at such high level that in the years to come the silt which will be carried down by the Orange River will be reduced to a minimum. This is to our mind a serious matter. There are particular problems in that catchment area. The hon. member for Kuruman (Mr. du Plessis) referred in another debate to the termite plague, a plague which is also experienced in that catchment area. This is only one plague to which I could refer. I want to ask the hon. the Minister therefore to send research workers into that area in order to do research on that experimental farm or those experimental farms in order to enable us by this means to apply conservation farming under the guidance of these highly specialized people in such a way that we will be able to reduce the quantity of silt carried by the Orange River to a minimum. I want to make a very earnest plea in this regard and I trust that the hon. the Minister will see his way clear to accede to my request.

We have had a wonderful opportunity her to-day to discuss as necessary a source of life as water, and to make our various representations to the hon. the Minister. I do not want to confine my few remarks to my own constituency; I should also like to express a few opinions in regard to the Western Cape. I should like to express my appreciation of the fact that the hon. member for Moorreesburg (Mr. P. S. Marais) did not confine himself to the Berg River or to the lower reaches of the Berg River, but that he also felt that the whole of the Western Cape should be considered with a view to its development for the increased conservation of water. Sir, this is a good thought, although it is my personal opinion that this is the way in which the Department of Water Affairs is already operating. From the nature of the case I have a great deal to do with this matter and I cannot but express my appreciation of the fact that the Department has not simply confined itself to a certain river or a certain area in the Cape but has investigated the Berg River and has not neglected other areas. Unfortunately we here in the Western Cape do not have one large river and one or two or three suitable dam sites. We have various rivers and unfortunately we do not have good dam sites. Because suitable dam sites are so limited, I should like to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister and his Department to ensure that a proper investigation is made into small Government schemes and that the various small rivers flowing from the mountains here in the Western Cape should also be investigated. If small schemes can be developed I want to ask that those small schemes should be developed so as to form a great joint whole because we do. not have the necessary dam sites for the establishment of large water schemes.

The conditions here in the Western Cape for the conservation of water are very favourable, in the first instance because we do not only have a high rainfall in the mountains but we also have a reasonably constant rain fall in the Western Cape itself. A second and very important factor is that our water here is siltfree. In other words, when a scheme is implemented here, it lasts for a very long time. The position is that the Western Cape area is in the first instance, because of the types of farming carried on here, largely dependent upon water. On the other hand there are regions in the Western Cape which verge on the high rainfall areas and whose rainfall is very low indeed. We find, for example, that in the Ceres-Karoo area, between Ceres and Calvinia, the rainfall is about four inches per year, and yet there is a wonderful scheme which can be implemented. I am aware of the fact that there has never been an engineering problem; it has always only been a financial problem; and if we have the necessary finances, then all these schemes can very easily be implemented. I want to express my appreciation that the hon. the Minister has declared this area to be a State water control area. We are aware that a syndicate was formed which started a private scheme there. This is a very large area consisting of thousands of morgen of good soil which can be placed under irrigation. As I have said, a private scheme was brought into being and the Department felt, very wisely, also as a result of appeals made to it in this regard, that something should be done because a private scheme could possibly cause the shipwreck of a large national scheme. The hon. the Minister than approved the suggestion to declare this area to be a State water control area. Sir, because we receive such heart-rendering letters in regard to the drought conditions in those areas, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is not possible to start upon the first facet in that area. I know that there is of course the whole of the Breede River valley which is also being investigated and which we should also like to see developed, but I should like to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to the fact that the so-called Aspoort scheme could create a wonderful paradise as well as a large fodder-bank if it were ever implemented. I shall be very pleased if in his reply the hon. the Minister will give us some information in this regard.

The hon. member for Turffontein (Mr. Durrant) said that I was alleged to have said last year that I intended revising the boring regulations and making concessions which would cost the State about R200,000 per annum. He is quite correct; I said it. We are still working on it. I do not think it will cost only R200,000; I think it will cost a little more. The reason why we could not evolve a scheme within the framework is because we did not have proper statistics in respect of boring done by private boring machines. Much progress has already been made in drafting the regulations in their amended form, if the Cabinet approves of them, and I hope that before we assemble again next year I shall be able to say whether we can do so or not.

Can you give us any indication as to the direction in which you are thinking?

The direction in which we think is to grant greater concessions to farmers in respect of unsuccessful boreholes than those granted at the moment in terms of the regulations. That is the greatest complaint the farmers have. The farmers feel that they would be prepared rather to pay more if they get water than to make appreciable contributions towards the costs in respect of an unsuccessful borehole.

In regard to the appointment of geologists or geophysicists to assist the Department to find water, I just want to say that those people are about as scarce as teeth in a fowl’s mouth. The geological survey section of the Department of Mines gives us as much assistance as they possibly can but, as was also stated by the hon. member for Drakensberg (Mrs. S. M. van Niekerk), one should remember that finding water is not the only matter to which they have to devote attention, and not all geologists can assist in that regard. The people who can indicate where water is to be found are really those who have specialized in geophysics. There are quite a number of geologists and geophysicists in private practice, and there is nothing which prevents farmers from calling in the assistance of these people if they want to make sure that the borehole will not be dry. Those people, however, also make mistakes. Hon. members should not imagine, when a geologist has indicated a spot, that water will always be found there. They cannot see into the bowels of the earth as people are sometimes inclined to think. I know of quite a number of people in my constituency who wanted to have holes bored by private boring machines. No State boring machine was available for them. They obtained a private boring machine and got a geologist to indicate the spots to them and it did not cost them very much.

Would you be prepared, where a farmer has a borehole sunk at a place indicated by a geophysicist, to allow him to apply for a subsidy or for repayment of part of the costs he incurred in obtaining the services of a geophysicist?

No, I cannot allow that. I think the farmer himself should be prepared to bear those costs if he wants to make sure that his boring costs will be less by employing the services of a geophysicist.

May I put a question to the hon. the Minister? Is the Minister aware that geophysicists are only available in a few large centres in the whole of South Africa?

There are perhaps few of them, but they are not limited only to a few centres. If there are no geophysicists in Natal, I can quite understand it because Natal is not really a part of the country which is short of water. There may be certain areas of Natal which need water, but that does not apply to the whole of Natal. I can mention places in the Karoo where there is a geophysicist. At Graaff-Reinet, e.g., there is a very able geologist and geophysicist who goes out into the district to indicate where water can be found; that is his practice. He would even be prepared to go to Natal if he was paid for his services.

That is all I wanted to say in regard to boring services, except to add this. It was said here that there is a terribly long waiting-list for State boring services. We admit it, and we frankly admitted, when we changed the boring regulations, that the State could not possibly keep enough State boring machines to supply all the needs of the farmers. It is for that reason that we included the private boring machines in this scheme, and we pay the same subsidy for boring done by private machines as the subsidy we pay for boring done by State machines. We do not intend expanding our boring activities to such an extent that we can comply with all the requests for State boring machines.

I want to hurry so as to reply in the next few minutes to the various representations made to me. Representations were, inter alia, made to me for larger and smaller works. I just want to say in regard to the larger irrigation works we tackle that we do so because we regard it as being in the national interest that they should be tackled, but we do it in such a way that the smaller schemes which are essential are not neglected. We do not want to tackle the larger schemes and lose sight of the smaller schemes, and often in the planning and implementation of larger schemes, except in the Orange River where we have a unique position, the building of smaller dams in that water source complex is also included. The question has been asked here to what extent we have planned to develop the Tugela River, which is the biggest river in Natal. I do not have the time to give a complete report, but I may say that the Department has not only practically completed the planning in regard to the Tugela River, but we have also developed certain works already within the catchment area of the Tugela and its main tributaries. I think here, e.g. of the Chelmsford Dam at Newcastle; that dam was built on a tributary of the Buffalo River. Then there is the Wagendrift Dam at Estcourt, which was built in the Bushman’s River, which is also a branch of the Tugela; there is the Craigie Burn Dam, which has been built on a branch of the Mooirivier. The future conservation possibilities of the Buffalo River and the Mooirivier have been properly investigated. We have our dam sites there; we know which is best for future development. In the Upper Tugela we investigated three sites, two of which are not very good, but the third has a great potential. We know what the flow of water in that river is and we realize that it is a river which eventually will have to be developed in its entirety with a view to the development we believe will take place in Natal, not only in the Tugela area but over a very wide complex. The possibilities for expansion and development there are tremendous. I think the larger works in the Tugela catchment area will have to stand over until the catchment area of Umgeni is exhausted and the need arises for bigger works in order to enable further development. I am not referring to the Upper Tugela now. I am not saying that the development there, as in the Mooirivier area itself, must stand over until that stage has been reached. I may just add that Natal has received ample attention and has richly shared, I think, in the money made available over the past six years in the Estimates of the Department of Water Affairs.

I now come to the Eastern Lowveld. which was mentioned by the hon. member for Nelspruit (Mr. Faurie). It is an extremely important area where great development has already taken place and further great development works are being tackled. There, as well as in the case of the other areas to which I will refer in a moment, it is a question of the appropriate time and the availability of funds. The hon. member pleaded that the Department of Water Affairs should have more money made available to it so as to make more rapid progress in regard to the conservation of our water resources. I will convey the hon. member’s message to the Minister of Finance and to the Government.

I should now like to say a few words in regard to the Berg River. Due to the industrial development which has taken place and the shifting of the importance of the supply of water from the agricultural sphere to the industrial sphere, wherever we have to develop water resources, it is the policy of the Department to have regard to the whole region and the whole area and then to see whether we cannot plan in such a way that it will serve the wide regional interests. It is in this light that I and my Department regarded the Breërivier, namely as one of the water sources in the Western Cape, but one to be included in the regional development planning. Of these water sources in the Western Cape, I think that the Riviersonderend is certainly the biggest and therefore we started to plan for the Western Cape as such. I may just say that our planning has been completed. I have good reasons for not wanting to go into details now and saying what the plans are, but what one of the hon. members here said is quite correct, namely that he ascertained or suspected that it provided not only for the needs of the Riviersonderend area itself but also for the supply of water to the farmers in the “rûensgebied”, i.e. on the other side of the mountain, in so far as that is economically possible, and that the water will be diverted through a tunnel into the Berg River, and that of course various other works will be built in the Berg River itself, and that lower down in the Berg River area there are also supplementary places which must be dammed in order to supply this whole Western Cape area, including the City of Cape Town and its industrial area, with water in future. It is only a question of the right time, and the availability of funds, as I have already said, is one of the main factors. I prefer to wait until such time as I can announce the complete scheme. It is obvious that it will have to be built in phases. In regard to the Breërivier I can say the same. Aspoort is of course one of the three important water sources in the Western Province. I promised the Aspoort farmers that when I submitted to the Cabinet as a scheme the development of any of the three, the Berg River or the Breërivier or the Aspoort, I would not do so before the planning in regard to Aspoort was completed, and it has almost been completed. I will do so simultaneously so that one will be able to judge which of the three should enioy priority, the Breërivier, the Berg River or Aspoort.

The hon. member for Brits (Mr. J. E. Potgieter) raised the question of the effluent from the Johannesburg urban area going to the Hartebeespoortdam. I just want to tell him that the biggest sewage works in Johannesburg are to the north of the city and he need therefore not be afraid that that water will not continue flowing into the Hartebeespoortdam.

One of the hon. members asked me whether plans are being made to supply supplementary water for the Vaal River. Hon. members will see in the Estimates that we have made provision for the building of another dam in the Vaal River to supplement Vaaldam. We think the time has now arrived to make a start with it, in view of the fact that Vaaldam plays such an important role in the whole economy of the country.

Will you send us written replies to questions which perhaps you have not answered?

Yes, I shall do so.

Vote put and agreed to.

Loan Vote “E”—“Water Affairs”, R40,453,000, put and agreed to.

Business suspended at 6.30 p.m. and resumed at 8.5 p.m.

Evening Sitting

On Revenue Vote No. 24.—“Forestry”, R 1,656,000,

There are two or three matters I should like to put to the hon. the Minister in the form of questions before I make a few comments in general. Firstly, I want to ask the hon. the Minister what the excess of expenditure is for the past 12 months, whatever the year may be. I presume it will be a fiscal year.

Another point I have raised before and to which I want to return is the question of an easy and satisfactory method of determining the tannin content of wattle bark. Sugar planters can send a lorry load to a sugar mill; it is weighed; a sample is taken to establish the sugar content and the farmer is paid accordingly. There is a tendency today, because there is a law on the subject and regulations have been framed thereunder, to classify our wattle bark according to colour, condition and so forth. It is graded accordingly and the grower is paid according to the grade. I have no doubt whatever as the result of conversations I have had with technical people that some of the wattle bark which is graded first-grade, in fact, has less tannin than wattle bark which may only be graded as merchantable. The first-mentioned is therefore less profitable from the point of view of the factory than the last-mentioned.

In this regard I regret to see that under Item F on page 136, the total sum of the two items for forest research only amounts to R28,800. Forest research under this item includes indigenous forests, plantations, tan-bark wattle, forest influences on climate and rainfall and miscellaneous expenses: R 14,800. Sir, that is a very, very small amount. The next sub-head is for R14,000. Admittedly, under G, Financial Assistance, the grants to the University of Natal and to the University of Stellenbosch have been increased but the grant-in-aid to the South African Wood Promotion Council has been diminished by some R6,000 so that the figure is still not too satisfactory. The point I want to make is that in my opinion the Department itself, under sub-head F, Forest Research, should be placed in possession of far greater funds than this. Research is going to be the basis of so much of the future development of our forest industry. It is one of the most important industries in this country to-day; it is a money-earner. I think of one factory alone which is to-day bringing something like R 14,000,000 and R16,000,000—I am speaking without my book but I think that is the figure. When we think of that I think the amount to be spent on research is lamentably small. And I do hope the hon. the Minister will do something about that.

One other point. I understand the Minister has appointed a commission of inquiry into some aspects of the forestry industry. I wonder whether he will give us the terms of reference? In regard to the acreages and tonnages of timber, some three years ago, with the use of university students and so forth, a Republicwide survey was carried out to determine the timber resources from which it could perhaps be calculated what our future take-off would be; whether we were over-planting; whether we would be short of our requirements and generally what the position was going to be. I am afraid that those figures, which were perhaps not altogether reliable but they were nevertheless a basis, have not been kept up to date. I was in the very unhappy position recently, when I asked the Department of Railways for certain figures in respect of which they had applied to the Department of Forestry to let them have, to be told that they did not have those figures and they would not be in a position to let me have them for a very long time to come. The figures given were those of three years ago. The forest industry is growing rapidly in importance year by year; it is producing a greater and greater amount of raw material for so many of our industries in this country that it seems to me that, having established a figure three years ago, the Department of Forestry should be keeping tab on the annual increment, whether it be of saw timber or of pulp timber or whatever the form may be. The one organization which can keep track of that annual growth is the Department of Forestry. Nobody else can do it, Sir. The South African Timber Growers’ Association can assist the Department but they can only deal with the matter through the agency of their own members whereas the Forestry Department can deal with it in an over-all coverage. I think that what is necessary in this regard is that, year by year, we should keep track of precisely what is coming forward in terms of tonnage. Otherwise we will be going to the Railways one of these days saying: “Here we have a few thousand tons of timber we want you to carry” only to be told “Why didn’t you tell us about it; we are not prepared for it.” Those vital statistics can only be obtained and maintained by the Department of Forestry and I think there should be a table for the whole of the Republic so that the annual increment is available. Whether it is six or nine months behind it does not matter; as long as it is there and as long as it is available to commerce, industry, our transport section, road hauliers and others who may be interested in it. The Railways, road hauliers and future industries, in particular, will require to be told exactly what is facing them and what is likely to be the tonnage for the future. I do ask the hon. the Minister to make certain that those figures are obtained, maintained and kept right up to date. That is absolutely vitally necessary in our economy.

There are just a few matters that I want to bring to the notice of the hon. the Minister. Sir, a very serious problem is developing in Natal and presumably also in certain parts of the other provinces. This problem has already assumed very serious proportions in Natal. I refer to the uncontrolled planting of trees in that Province. The position in Natal to-day is that the dairy industry is facing a very serious crisis. This uncontrolled planting of trees is not confined to farmers only; it is also being done by large companies who either buy the land from the farmers and plant trees or who buy up these plantations from the farmers and then bind the farmers for a very long period. That land could have been used advantageously for grazing for the purpose of dairy production. Dairy production has suffered a serious setback in Natal and one of the main reasons is this uncontrolled afforestation. At the moment Durban has insufficient milk. Milk has to be transported over a distance of about 200 miles in order to provide Durban with milk. Mr. Chairman, you know yourself that the roads in Natal pass through mountainous country, and it is more difficult to transport milk in Natal over a shorter distance than it is in Johannesburg, for example, to transport it over a longer distance. Unless we put a stop to the afforestation of good pastures, I foresee a complete collapse of the dairy industry in Natal. Sir, there is sufficient land that is not being used for grazing that can be planted with trees; in fact there is more than enough. I think the time has come for the Minister to give his attention to this matter and to see to it that that pasture land is not put under trees but preserved for the dairy industry in Natal.

Another matter that I should like to bring to the Minister’s notice is the planting of yellowwood in Natal. This is a tree which grows quickly and I do not know whether there is any other wood which is as useful in the furniture industry and for building work as yellowwood. It is durable and attractive and it grows quickly. I feel that the Department should go out of its way to plant yellowwood on a larger scale so that this durable wood can be used in the furniture and building industries. Then there is another wood which I think can be planted advantageously in the Republic, particularly in the coastal regions from St. Lucia Bay to the North. I saw large plantations of these trees in Portuguese East Africa in areas where the climate is the same and where the nature of the soil is the same. It is used there on a fairly large scale. One reason that is advanced as to why we should not plant it here is that it grows too slowly. It is a type of teak. I admit that it is a slow grower in the forest country in which it grows but I should like the Department of Forestry to plant this shamboti in the coastal regions of Zululand which have the same climate and the same type of soil as the areas in Portuguese East Africa where this tree is planted. If hon. members go to Lourenco Marques they will see that this shamboti wood is used almost exclusively in their finest buildings. It is an attractive ornamental wood not only for furniture but also for panelling. I shall be glad if the Department can make this experiment, even if it is on a very small scale, to see whether shamboti will not grow just as well in the coastal regions of Zululand as it does in Portuguese East Africa.

The hon. member for South Coast (Mr. D. E. Mitchell) asked me a few questions to which I want to reply first before I come to the more general aspect of forestry which he also touched upon and which the hon. member for Vryheid (Mr. D. J. Potgieter) also dealt with.

The position is that we have still not reached the stage where our annual income has caught up with our expenditure. The amount that we are spending on afforestation still exceeds our income. Last year our income, in round figures, was R 11,000,000, whereas our expenditure was in the neighbourhood of R 12,000,000; that is to say, there is still a shortfall of Rl,000,000. The hon. member must remember, however, that the Department is doing a good deal of work which at the moment produces no profit; for example, there is the work which is being done in connection with drift sand reclamation, which entails considerable expenditure but from which we can expect no income. This work is being done for the sake of the preservation of the soil and of our catchment areas. Taking everything into account our total expenditure is R 12,000,000 whereas our income last year was R 11,000,000. The hon. member also referred to the method of determining the tannin quality of bark. I understand that this proposal has already been conveyed to the Wattle Research Institute. The Institute was asked whether it was possible to work out such method and their reply was that at the moment it was still not a feasible pro-position. They are conducting experiments, however, and as soon as they have worked out a practical method it may well be possible to apply it.

The hon. member also put a question to me in connection with forest research. I refer to sub-head F of the Estimates. The hon. member must remember that sub-head F only makes provision for the purchase of material that is needed in connection with research. The research which is done by the Department is covered by various sub-heads. Under sub-head A. which deals with salaries, provision is made for a sum of R 104,000 in respect of staff whose sole function is research. Under sub-head D provision is made for a sum of R14,500 in respect of research. Under subhead C provision is made for R500; under sub-head D, R6,100, under sub-head E R3,500, and then there is sub-head F. All in all provision is being made for a sum of R 128,600 in respect of research. Sub-head F only deals with the purchase of material that is needed for research institutions. I am perfectly satisfied that research is being done on a large scale, and I will have a few more words to say in connection with research in a few moments.

You can spend even more on it.

The hon. member also put a question to me in connection with agricultural statistics, and the hon. member for Vryheid (Mr. D. J. Potgieter) raised the question of the uncontrolled planting of trees, particularly in Natal. I understand that shamboti is just a Portuguese name for the tree that is known to us generally as Transvaal kiaat (teak). The question is whether it is possible to plant that type of tree in the warmer high rainfall regions. It is possible that it will grow more quickly there than it normally grows in lowveld regions. This matter will have to be investigated.

I feel that there are one or two general observations that I ought to make at this stage in pursuance of what was said here by two hon. members. As far as natural timber sources are concerned South Africa is one of the poorest countries in the world. Only .3% of its surface area is under natural forests, and of this an area only a quarter of a million morgen is covered by what can be described as high forest which is capable of being utilized. These natural forests are at present yielding only a quarter of a million cubic feet of hardwood per annum whereas what we need most in this country is softwood. A start was made as far back as 1880 on an experimental scale to supplement these sources through the artificial planting of exotic varieties.

As a result of these experimental plantings the State has taken the lead in establishing and exploiting plantations and managing them on a permanent basis in order to supply the estimated future timber needs of the country as far as possible. In the course of the years, however, the State has even received strong support from private entrepreneurs as far as the establishment of plantations is concerned. As a result of the example set by the State first companies and then farmers, and even some members of this House, themselves proceeded to establish plantations. At the moment the Republic has approximately 1.05 million morgen of exotic plantations, of which slightly more than 300,000 morgen are under State control. The remaining 705,000 morgen are privately owned, and these privately owned plantations can be further sub-divided into plantations owned by municipalities (25,000 morgen), companies, some of which also own timber processing industries (280,000 morgen), and farmers (400,000 morgen).

Up to the present time plantations have been established on a very arbitrary basis and afforestation has taken place as the owner of the land saw fit. As far as I can determine, there has been no co-ordinated programme of afforestation and a total lack of any advance planning in regard to the way in which the timber that will eventually be derived from these plantations is going to be utilized. The stage has now been reached where uncontrolled afforestation in this haphazard way can no longer be allowed, and one of the reasons why the Secretary for the Department of Forestry and I are shortly going to visit Europe is to find out how plantations are controlled abroad in order to ensure orderly production and marketing of timber products. What we want to find out is whether any restrictions are imposed upon afforestation undertaken by private entrepreneurs, companies and even by the State; what type of land is allowed to be afforested; what extent of land is allowed to be afforested in any one year; what guidance is provided to the private entrepreneurs by State authorities in order to ensure that areas which are being afforested are managed on a permanent basis; whether any afforestation project which a private undertaking or company wishes to undertake is subject to approval by the State and whether the management purpose of the afforestation project is mutually agreed upon, and if so, whether the private undertaking or company is allowed to change the management purpose arbitrarily without further consultation; and whether it is in the interests of the economy of the forestry industry that timber processing industries undertake the establishment of plantations without being subject to any form of control and as result develop monopolistic tendencies which may eliminate fair competition.

It is obvious that replies to those questions must be obtained at this stage already, because our country does not have unlimited areas of agricultural land available for the cultivation of food crops. We know that certain companies are at the moment investing large amounts of money in farms with the sole object of afforesting those farms. One question that occurs to me is whether it is in the interests of the country that, without being subject to any form of control, those companies should be allowed to afforest that land which has up to the present been used for the production of food. If that land is to be afforested, is it in the interests of the forestry industry that the afforestation should be undertaken by companies which have interests in timber processing industries? Would it not possibly be more advantageous if by means of orderly planning the farmers who own the land at present were encouraged to afforest the land or portions thereof themselves and, if need be, were assisted, by means of information provided by State authorities, in order to ensure orderly management of those private plantations? I must honestly admit that neither my Department nor I can at the moment provide the final answers to all those questions. We hope to find answers to some of them, if not to all of them, during our visit overseas.

The hon. member for South Coast also asked a question in connection with forestry statistics. Sir, you are aware that in view of the lack of information, my predecessor had already arranged for a survey of the sources of timber and the present consumption of wood in South Africa to be made so that the future of the timber industry in this country and particularly the course to be adopted by the Department of Forestry as a State undertaking could be determined on the basis of that survey. The steering committee which was charged with this investigation has already reached an advanced stage in its work, but serious shortcomings have been disclosed in the management of the private forestry sector. These shortcomings are of such a nature that the data which have already been collected by the steering committee may be unreliable and even misleading for the purposes of future planning. For example, it has been found, that the basic statistics in regard to areas afforested and age categories for the various species were only available in the form of approximate figures, with too large a margin of error. Furthermore, there is no certainty that the output from private plantations which is shown on the inventory will be maintained. I addition, as far as the private sector is concerned, there is a lack of stability in management purpose as far as the final product of any particular plantation is concerned, which makes long-term planning impossible.

According to their association the private timber growers are perfectly aware of these serious shortcomings and are keen to have their house set in order as a first step to rationalization in the industry. The Cabinet has accordingly approved the appointment of a committee to investigate the private forestry industry and to make recommendations in regard to (a) the way in which reliable surveys of the country’s commercial timber resources and timber requirements can be made, and the requirements for achieving continuity in the processing and making available of reliable statistics on the plantation industry; (b) the way in which stability of management purpose and orderly production of timber can be maintained on a permanent basis; (c) the desirability and practicability of stable and orderly marketing in the plantation industry; (d) the problems regarding the profitability of plantations, price stabilization, taxation and possible financial assistance to growers; (e) the extent to which co-ordinated action between the private and public sectors exists, or can be improved, in so far as the protection of plantations against harmful factors such as fires, diseases and insects, etc., is concerned; and (f) the desirability and nature of legislation deemed necessary to give effect to the recommendations of the committee and to enable the private plantation industry in particular to be managed on a sound basis.

The committee will consist of four representatives of the private forestry sector and four officials of the Department of Forestry. I have already appointed the following persons from the private sector to the committee: Mr. Craig Anderson, Chairman of the South African Timber Growers’ Association, Mr. L. W. Barnes, Vice-Chairman of the South African Timber Growers’ Association, Mr. T. F. Mackenzie, Chairman of the South African Wattle Growers’ Association, and Mr. P. V. van Breda, member of the Board of Directors of Union Co-op. Dalton, which has extensive interests in both wattle and pine plantations.

I think hon. members will agree with me that I shall have to have first-hand information regarding what procedures are adopted in foreign countries in regard to these matters so that, when considering the report of the committee, I shall be better able to decide which of their recommendations would be in the best interests of the forestry industry of South Africa.

The hon. member for South Coast also spoke about research. It is our policy to manage the indigenous forests according to the best principles of management, due regard being had to the aesthetic value of those forests, and to protect them with the object of utilizing them to the best advantage of the country. Owing to staff shortages it was for many years not possible to carry out intensive research in regard to indigenous forests. Although the Department is still hampered by staff shortages it has recently been possible to detail officials to undertake research work in this connection, and we trust that it will not again be necessary to interrupt this important work.

Locally grown pine-wood has certain unfavourable traits which are more typical of certain species and varieties than of others. By means of forest genetics it is the intention to cultivate varieties which display these unfavourable traits to a lesser degree, and for this purpose the Department maintains three forest genetics stations. It is expected that it will perhaps be possible to make available limited quantities of the first seed obtained from the seed plantations of these stations to the public in the foreseeable future. In addition to the application of forest genetics, attempts are also being made by means of appropriate technological timber research to eliminate these unfavourable traits in certain kinds of wood by the application of improved methods of sawing and seasoning.

The Department also aims at increasing the profitability of State plantations by means of sustained research into forest cultivation, economic factors and methods of improving efficiency. In addition to maintaining its own research institute, the Department makes available funds by way of grants-in-aid to two institutions, namely the Faculty of Forestry at the University of Stellenbosch and the Wattle Research Institute in Natal.

The present Forestry Research Institute of the Department has been situated in the industrial area of Pretoria (West) ever since 1922. Owing to the industrial expansion in that area conditions are no longer conducive to accurate scientific work and, besides, most of the buildings are obsolete and the accommodation is unsuitable. It has now become essential to erect a new institute, but before the planning of the establishment is conmmenced, I want to acquaint myself with the nature and extent of comparable forestry research institutions and the way in which the work has been allocated to various interested research bodies in various European countries.

As the House knows, the State, through the agency of my Department, makes a considerable contribution to the forestry research funds of the Universities of Stellenbosch and Natal, and the Department is well represented on the steering committee of the Timber Unit of the C.S.I.R. I trust that my overseas visit and my observations abroad will contribute towards better enabling my Department to carry out the function which has been entrusted to it, which is to co-ordinate all State-aided forest and timber research in the Republic. In addition I want to acquaint myself with the requirements for a modern institution which can cover all aspects of forestry and timber research. I also want to go and take a look at the division between research undertaken by the State itself and research which is undertaken at universities; I want to see whether it corresponds to what we are doing here in South Africa.

Hon. members will realize that I have covered this wide field with the object of giving a survey of the problems which I foresee in the near future and to which I want to devote special attention. It is also with those problems in mind that I am going overseas to see what the older countries have done in this connection. All of them must have faced those problems at some time or another, and before we tackle those problems here, I should like to go and see what was done there. I hope that we shall be in a better position to have a general discussion next year. I may just add that I also announced recently that I was seriously considering the establishment of a Forestry Board on which the Department, the industrialists and the growers could be represented, because if at some stage we get so far as to introduce a larger measure of control over what is being done by the private sector, I do not think it will be fair if that control is exercised by Government machinery alone, but in my opinion it will possibly have to be exercised by a board. It is therefore my opinion that there must be consultation with all interested bodies and persons before any measure of control is introduced. With that object in mind I am considering the appointment of an advisory board in the near future on which the various interests could be represented and which could provide me with the necessary advice in regard to forestry matters.

The last few remarks of the hon. the Minister have set my mind a little bit at rest in regard to certain matters which I wanted to raise. I welcome the Minister’s suggestion that if further control has to be exercised, control which will also affect the private sector, it will be done by way of co-operation between the various sections of the industry and that the Department will not enforce something on the private sector. Because I was going to issue a note of warning in that regard after hearing the opening remarks of the hon. Minister. We know the difficulty about the ploughing up of land referred to by the hon. member for Vryheid (Mr. D. J. Potgieter). That breaks up our prairie land, it does away with our grass veld, it reduces our milk supplies and so forth. But the point in this regard is an economic one. If people will make more money out of growing timber than from producing milk then they will grow timber. They will do that as long as they are free men and can use their farms as they wish. It is as simple as that. The hon. member for Vryheid says Durban has to cart milk from over 200 miles away. We are not discussing the question of milk to-day, but the truth of the matter is that Durban is not going to have milk; they will have to get their milk from 300 miles away and the distance will get longer and longer if they want supplies. I can foresee that in the near future. But as long as it does not pay people to produce milk as against something else they will go in for that other thing which pays them better. And if it is timber then timber it will be. If we try to enforce control from above, without the co-operation of the South African Timber Growers’ Association, then I foresee trouble. May I say to the hon. the Minister in regard to the four gentlemen whom he has appointed from the private sector to that commission that he has made an excellent choice. They are four very good men indeed, and if he will co-operate with men like that, in so far as it is possible to get co-operation, he will get that co-operation.

One last word before I sit down. The hon. member for Vryheid dealt with certain types of trees that he suggested should be planted. We have only at the present time in South Africa one really good handbook on conifers and that was written by an Englishman, Haley, seven or eight years ago. He is dead now. But we have got a handbook written by one of the people at Stellenbosch for his doctorate, dealing with Eucalyptus Seligna. I think the hon. the Minister might take an interest in the matter and see whether we can’t have a South African follow-up to Haley’s book in regard to conifer growing in South Africa, a handbook. It is a fine book. It pays a tremendous tribute to our conifer growing in South Africa, a wonderful tribute; it puts us right ahead really of the rest of the world, but it is something which now after seven or eight years should have a follow-up. Lastly, if the Minister wants to do something really permanent for South African forestry and we are to produce a really first-class timber in this country, then let him go for a tree that has already proved through random plantings for the last 30 or 40 years, and that is what is usually called the Himalayan Cedar. That tree through the whole of the South Coast areas has given and is giving magnificent results. It is not a tree that you can cut out before a 20 or 25 year rotation, but it is a tree of the finest quality timber, and we are not producing that with the conifers that we are producing in South Africa, good as they are. That is a proved tree. I have got no complaint against what the hon. member for Vryheid has suggested for the warm coastal areas. This is a mountain area tree and it is a tree that has proved itself. If the Minister wants to go in for planting this tree even on a small scale in order to produce this type of timber in South Africa, I am certain he won’t go wrong.

I may just say that the hon. member for Vryheid (Mr. D. I. Potgieter) is quite right in saying that if control does come, it is not something which should come from the State alone. It is something which can only be introduced if it is done in consultation and collaboration with the interested bodies and persons. That is why I want to act by means of an advisory board in the way I have outlined. But I do not think the hon. members are quite correct in saying that the question of demand and supply and potential profitability is the only reason why land which was formerly used for milk production is now being utilized for forestry projects. What often happens is that industrial enterprises which want an afforestation area available come along and simply buy up such an area, buy out the farmers and afforest such an area. There are large areas in Natal in which companies are buying up entire districts for afforestation purposes. It is a problem that we have to face, and I do not think we can afford to wait very long before we do so. I do not want to say that these people are wrong. We have no statistics at the moment to indicate to us whether we are moving in a dangerous direction in this regard and how far we can allow matters to develop. I think we must make a very careful examination in this regard.

The hon. member also referred to standard works on our trees and forests. I may just say that a new work by M. Grutt, Forests and Forest Industry in South Africa, has just been published. I am told that this is a completely authoritative book which contains the very latest information in regard to our tree varieties and also deals with tree varieties that may possibly be cultivated in South Africa. I believe that this work which has just appeared is quite a standard one and that it brings the information that was available in the past right up to date. I shall in any case make enquiries as to whether there is not some method to keep the information in this connection up to date by means of the publications of the Department and whether it is not perhaps possible to have an annual publication prepared by the Department. I shall go into that.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Revenue Vote No. 25.—“Bantu Education (Special Education)”, R200,000,

May I have the privilege of the half-hour? Mr. Chairman, the lines of criticism that have been advanced by this side of the House when this Vote has been under discussion from year to year, are familiar to the hon. the Minister and to members of the House. We have criticized the provision that has been made for Bantu Education under three Heads: The children in the schools, the teachers (the teaching profession) and finally, the financial provision made for Bantu Education. When we have discussed the position in the schools, we have referred to the unwieldy large classes that have to be handled by teachers in the schools; we have spoken about the system that was introduced as a temporary measure, the so-called double-session system, and which has now become a recognized established system. We have also criticized the fact that these small children at an early stage of their education have to wrestle with three languages, with their own African language, the vernacular, as they call it, and the two official languages. Finally, we have protested that school-feeding has now been practically abolished.

Then when we come to the teachers, we have spoken about the inadequate supply of teachers. We have said they are badly paid, that their qualifications are not as high as they should be, and we have said that their conditions of service are a disgrace to South Africa. There is no pension scheme for Bantu teachers, and in addition to that, for the interpretation of their conditions of service, they are placed in the hands of laymen on school boards.

When we come to the question of finance, we have said that the pegging of the contribution from the Consolidated Revenue Fund to the Bantu Education Account is inadequate. We have also said that the amount spent on the education of the Bantu child is one-tenth of the amount spent on the education of a White child in the Transvaal. It is disproportionate and not sufficient. Not only that, but even when the teachers are underpaid, the parents themselves have to provide special funds for the education of their children. They appoint teachers and they pay for them themselves. And of course there is the general criticism that the pyramid of Bantu Education is broad at the base but at the apex it tapers too rapidly to the top, that they have not the men at the top to carry the whole system. Those points will be dealt with again by hon. members on this side of the House.

To-night I want to deal especially with criticism that has come, not from us here, but from the African people themselves. They themselves have given voice to criticism and have told us what they think of the system, and I should like to deal with that this evening.

Towards the end of 1961, the Transkei Territorial Authority, as it was then, approached the hon. Minister of Bantu Education and told him that they had misgivings about the system being followed in the schools, in two respects particularly. One was the home language instruction that had been introduced, home language instruction right through the school, and, secondly, they felt that there was deterioration in the knowledge of the two official languages, especially English. Well, one could not expect the hon. Minister to accept that criticism, but he did agree to appoint a commission to report on these two points. That commission has been known as the Transkei Education Commission. It was a remarkable commission, and the hon. Minister thought it was historical, because the three members of the commission were Africans themselves—two of them sub-inspectors of schools and the third a retired principal of schools who is now on pension. The secretary was also an African. But the hon. Minister kindly appointed two White assessors, highly educated men in the academic field, inspectors of schools (one in Natal and one in the Bantu Education Department). This commission was appointed in the middle of 1962, and got to work immediately. They had their first meeting on 31 July and 1 August 1962. They did get to work. And they brought out a report in October, that is to say, within three months.

A difference to the Press Commission.

Yes, what a contrast with the Press Commission! Not 13 or 14 years, but three months!

And they all survived!

This report is a very fine document, and the hon. the Minister has paid tribute to it. He has said that the commission accomplished their task with vigour, competence, and he said that it has fulfilled expectations. He made other kind remarks I will come to later.

This evening I want to analyse the main recommendations of that report because the Minister has told us that what has been stated in the Transkei Commission’s report is applicable to the whole system of Bantu education throughout the Republic of South Africa.

I come now to sum up these recommendations. The first one deals with the standard of English, and it contains the comments and recommendations they made. This is what they report—

The second is on the subject of examinations, and this is said by men of professional experience—

These gentlemen realize that there are three variables in an examination. The first is the standard of the paper, the second the standard of marking, and the third variable is the adjustment of the marks after the examination. They have pointed that out.

I now come to a very important recommendation, because it is in line with the policy that this party has advocated for White schools. They say this in regard to parental option—-

I come now to the subject of double sessions that I referred to, and that we have criticized for years. The commission says this—

They then make staffing recommendations which I will not deal with in detail. That is professional. On the subject of finance they say this—

I now come to the subject of “home language instruction”—

I come now to the standard of education generally as found by the Minister’s commission—

Now I come to what they call the “mother-tongue substitute”, which I find of special interest—

The commission refers to the conditions of service of the teachers, but they were precluded from discussing the conditions of service, because that did not come within the terms of their reference. But they refer to the appointment of school boards, the promotion of teachers, salary scales and a pension scheme, security of tenure, and so on. That is the report of the Minister’s commission. What was the Minister’s reaction? That report was in his hands in October, 1962. In the “Bantu Education Journal” of June 1963 the Minister made some observations on the report, and these were his observations—

But this is the most important of all—

And so say all of us. This is a very important document. For the rest the hon. Minister’s references were to what my friends would call school management, class discipline and class work in general. Those I will not discuss. This is neither the place nor the time for that.

As I said, that is a very important report, a report on the professional side of our education system, of the whole system of Bantu education, And it is condemnatory. It condemns the system from beginning to end.

Now, Sir, this was a reference by the hon. the Minister in 1963, but by that time the Transkei had its own Parliament and they were giving serious thought to this subject of Bantu education. Hon. members will remember that when we debated in this House the first Bantu Education Act, or as it was called then the “Native Education Act”, in 1953 (Act No. 47 of 1953), it was introduced by the hon. Prime Minister himself, who was then Minister of Native Affairs. I remember the hon. member for Transkeian Territories asking him increduously towards the end of his speech: “Does this mean that the community schools, the Bantu community schools, will become the schools throughout eventually?” The Prime Minister said: “That is the intention.” In 1959 we had a very important amendment of that Act, and that amendment was introduced by the Minister of Bantu Education we have this evening with us. That was Act 33 of 1959, and in that Act, under Clause 3, I remember, two new sub-sections were introduced into the Act, 10 bis and 10 ter. Under those two sub-sections the Bantu school boards controlling these community schools were given authority over teachers to appoint, promote, transfer and dismiss teachers. A body of laymen were given that complete power over the whole of the teaching profession—the teaching profession engaged in community schools, which is to be the system. Now, Sir, at the second reading I criticized the powers of school boards. As a matter of fact, I was paid this compliment in the annual report of the Department in 1962, when they said: “School boards have also been the target of much criticism from political agitators.” I was one of them. If I may say so, I was about the earliest agitator on the subject of community schools under the control of Bantu school boards. In the second-reading debate I put the case, and when we came to the Committee Stage, I came back to this clause. Sir, you will excuse me if I quote what I said myself—

And this was the Minister’s reply—

I can’t argue against that. That is the final word from the Minister. Now I want to say that in 1963, we had the Transkeian Territorial Authority becoming the Transkei Parliament, and last year, in 1964, they considered this question of education very seriously. They are the people who asked for a commission, and what I quote now is from the Hansard of the Transkei Parliament. They met just a year ago, in 1964, and what I quote is from their debates. They met just a year ago. At their first meeting they followed our procedure, and there were notices of motion. There were 11 notices of motion from members, 10 of them dealing with education. No wonder Danton said “Education is the premier consideration of the people”. Ten of them dealt with education. They appointed a Select Committee to consider this commission’s report. I will read the notice of motion of the Minister of Education of the Transkei, who was a member of this commission, the honourable B. B. Ndledle. This is his notice of motion: He gave notice for leave to introduce a Bill “to provide for the transfer of community schools to the government of the Transkei and for matters incidental thereto”. In other words, the first Bill was to wipe out the system of Bantu Education and community schools, the system that has been foisted upon them by this Government, not by the hon. Minister of Bantu Education, but by the Prime Minister himself, the creator, the architect of the system. In addition to debating this Bill we have a report of the debate on the Vote on Education as their Estimates went through. I am going to quote from the Government side, not the Opposition side, in the Transkei Parliament. But the whole House was unanimous on the subject of education, and what I quote received the unanimous report of the whole of the Transkeian Parliament. I come first to the Minister of Education dealing with the Appropriation—

But what is very important—

As we legislated for Coloured schools and Indian schools—the Indian schools only last week. That is what they are doing in the Transkei. And later he said this—

And during the second reading of the Bill he said—

At the end of the second-reading debate he said—

And this is his peroration—

Let us come to the Minister of Justice of the Transke—

I come next to the Chief Minister, Kaizer Matanzima—

Bribery, corruption and worse! Here is an extract from a speech of a member on the government side—

Mr. Chairman, what have we done to these people with our system of Bantu education? Bribery and corruption! I am not quoting what the opposition said. I will not now read what the opposition said. When I consider my poor efforts when we discussed the Bantu Education Bill, I realize that I never understood the power and flexibility of the English language. I did not know to what heights one could rise. They said very frankly what they think about it. Everybody in the Transkei Parliament condemned it. They have introduced their own system.

What should we do? We know there is a custom in this House that if one is dissatisfied with the administration of the Government, one moves a reduction in the Minister’s salary. That does not meet the case. The Minister is the lieutenant. The commanding officer who introduced this system is the Prime Minister himself. He is the architect. He gave us this. This is an aspect of his “Bantoestanapartheidbeleid”, and it has failed miserably. The hon. the Minister of Bantu Education is the Sancho Panza following Don Quixote, who is tilting at windmills, the windmills of separate development and the other things they call it, “apartheid” and all the rest of it. Well, what can we do? I appeal to my educational friends in the House. What are they going to do about it? I think the time has arrived for us now to follow the example of the Transkei and to appoint a commission to investigate the operation of the Bantu Education Act. We as White people, as guardians of these people, ought to be ashamed of what we have done. Why should the Bantu of South Africa be treated differently from the Indian? He has a system which we put through last week, a system modelled on the Natal system, the bureaucratic system of Natal, where the Department has authority over the teaching profession. Why should our teachers, members of my profession, be handed over to a body of laymen, to school boards, who control the teachers in the Transkei, the educated people? Well, the Transkei is giving itself a better education system than the Bantu education system we gave them. The time has arrived for us now to reconsider the whole system. We have done our best in this House to point out the deficiencies, and what is the result of all this? Resentment and indignation, and eventually we shall have hatred. That is what we have bred by this system, and as the hon. the Minister has told us in the Education Journal, what is being said in the Transkei is true of the whole system in South Africa. It is condemned. There is only one thing to do with this system, to abolish it and give us a proper system in its place.

The hon. member for Kensington (Mr. Moore) cannot expect me to follow him. It would be physically impossible to deal in ten minutes with all the objections he raised here against the system of Bantu education we have at present, or even to mention them. He is of course fighting a rearguard action for the umpteenth time against the transfer of Bantu education to the Department of Bantu Affairs. I just want to tell him briefly why we on this side of the House were prepared to transfer education from the provinces to Bantu Affairs, the objections we had at the time to Bantu education, and what the position is to-day.

It is now ten years since Bantu education was transferred with so much trouble and sorrow from the provinces to the Central Government, trouble on the part of this side of the House and sorrow on that side. What I want to do now is to try to ascertain whether there was justification for that great sorrow. The hon. member for Houghton (Mrs. Suzman) says there was in fact sorrow. Her sorrow is of course even greater than that of the hon. member for Kensington. From this side of the House our criticism of the provincial system was that not enough progress was made in regard to the literacy of the Bantu; secondly, that not enough use was made of the Bantu languages in the education of the Bantu child; thirdly, that not enough attention was devoted to vocational training and special education; fourthly, that the Bantu himself had no say in regard to the literacy of the Bantu; secondly, fifthly, that in general there was too little coordination between school education and the general development of the Bantu. Those were a few of the accusations we made against the provincial system, and rightly. Now let us see what has happened during the past ten years in regard to these matters.

The first step taken by the Department of Bantu Affairs was to bring into being an excellent organization. I refer the hon. member for Kensington to pages 2 and 3 of the Annual Report for 1963. Here we should express a word of appreciation to the Secretary for Bantu Education. He has given us a report which covers practically the whole set-up of Bantu education and all its activities.

I agree.

Both the educational and the administrative sections of the Department have succeeded in obtaining the services of outstanding officials. No better proof is necessary to place beyond all doubt the bona fides of the National Party in respect of the development of the Bantu. It is the hon. member for Kensington who asked the other day whether in Indian education we had paid enough attention to what I called the “A side” and the “E side”. Here we have it in Bantu education. This team of experts was responsible not only for the drawing up of curricula and the supervision over teachers in the schools, but they were also continuously busy with research in every sphere of education. I want to refer more particularly to the objections we had to provincial control.

In the first place I want to refer to the numbers of children attending school. I want the hon. member for Kensington to look at Table 29 on page 40. There he will find that in 1963 there were 1,770,000 children at school out of a total population of 11,000,000; i.e. the children at school comprised 15 per cent of the total population, despite, according to the hon. member, the unpopularity of the system.

They all leave school after Sub-Std. B.

The hon. member should hold her breath until she gets a chance to speak. Compare that with the year 1954. Then there were 939,000 children at school, out of a total population of 9,000,000, or 10 per cent of the population. In other words, the proportion increased in those ten years by 5 per cent. If this tempo can be maintained, and I see no reason why that cannot be done for the next few years, we will have the position where 20 per cent of the Bantu population will be attending school, a position which is regarded as normal for any population, whether education is compulsory or not.

Further, I want to point out that 50 per cent of the population are now literate. Compare that with just below 40 per cent in 1954. Of the group between 17 and 20 years of age, 80 per cent are literate, and 83 per cent of children between seven and 14 years attend school. But then the hon. member for Kensington tells us that the whole system is bad and is disapproved of by the Bantu. In so far as numbers are concerned, we must admit that tremendous progress has been made by the Department of Bantu Education.

I now come to the second objection we had to the provincial system. Before the takeover, the Bantu language medium—and that was not generally the case either—was used up to Std. 3, and it was purely voluntary. Teachers who did not want to apply it did not do so. This Department appointed language committees for the seven recognized Bantu languages, with proper co-ordination between them, with the object of doing research in regard to the Terminology, and Orthography. The result was that within a few years there were complete lists of words and expressions for all subjects in the primary section, which made it possible to use the Bantu languages as media up to Std. 6. This language research also assisted in making a success of Radio Bantu. Another task was the searching for and the collection of Bantu literature. It is perhaps not generally known that in fact a Bantu literature exists. There are approximately 3,000 publications in the 7 languages, mostly Xhosa, Zulu and Sesuto. The Bible has long been translated into seven languages and there are various translations from English literature. One particularly finds that there is a great love for Shakespeare, and there is also a translation of Bunyan. [Time limit.]

The hon. member for Prieska (Mr. Stander) has used a lot of statistics and I would like to use statistics as well, but I am afraid my statistics will paint a very different picture from his. He quoted, for instance, that over 80 per cent of the Bantu population is literate, between the ages of seven and 20 years, and I presume he takes that figure from the Annual Report of the Department of Bantu Education. I am afraid I must object to this figure. I want to know from the hon. the Minister—and it is a figure he has used before in this House—how he arrives at those figures.

Do you question these figures?

Yes, I must question them because I do not know how they were obtained. Did the Minister have a survey of literacy made of all Bantu children in South Africa between the ages of seven and 20 years, and what is the Minister’s interpretation of literacy? Because there are different interpretations of this word. In America, for instance, nobody talks of literacy; people talk of functional literacy and that is something very different from simply being able to read or write one’s own name, which can be a very literal interpretation of the meaning of the word “literacy”. In America “literacy” means functional literacy, and that means that one has attended at least six grades at school, which in South Africa would be up to Std. IV. If one uses functional literacy as the test, it is clearly absurd to say that 80 per cent of the Bantu children between the ages of seven and 20 are literate. It is just not true, and the reason why I say that, is because we know perfectly well that the vast majority of Bantu children at school do not stay there beyond the first three standards, and therefore functional literacy simply does not apply as far as these children are concerned. I will give the hon. member for Prieska certain figures which were given to me by the hon. the Minister in the House last year. Now it is true that there is a large percentage of Bantu children of school-going age in the schools. I do not deny that, but if one takes the figures of the number of children who were in Sub-std. A in 1958, when there were 361,440 in Sub-std. A, and one works up to each succeeding year thereafter, one finds that more than a quarter of those children failed to go beyond Sub-std. A, which is the kindergarten. Of that same number, the following year more than a third failed to get into Std. I, and practically half, 48.9 per cent, failed to get as far as Std. H, and not quite 42 per cent entered Std. III. In other words, more than half these children do not get to Std. III. In America, up to Std. IV at least, after six years of attendance at school, and by our standards it would be up to Std. IV plus the two sub-standards, to make it six years, that is the determining factor for functional literacy. Simply being able to write one’s name and to read a few simple words in a primary reader does not make one functionally literate, and when one bears in mind that these children are educated through the medium of the vernacular and are learning the two official languages, English and Afrikaans, as foreign language virtually, one can understand how many more of these children are simply not functionally literate when they leave school. So to advance the claim that 80 per cent of the African children between the ages of seven and 20 are literate is to my mind a claim which simply cannot be substantiated. I would therefore be interested if the hon. the Minister would tell us how his Department arrives at this very high percentage of literacy. Perhaps his definition of literacy is completely different from my own and, I might say, from that of most people who are interested in education.

There are other statements made on the first page of this report which I must also query, because again it is the use of statistics as it pleases oneself. For instance, the opening paragraph tells us about the doubling of the number of children at school, and it goes on to say that the number of schools and of teachers has increased by more than half. It may well be that the number of teachers has increased, but I want to know what sort of teachers they are. Are they graduate teachers? Are they teachers who have had any real training in teaching? Because according to my figures it is just not possible that the number of graduate teachers could have increased 100 per cent. In fact, I know perfectly well that the figures are actually much lower than that. The over-all increase of graduate teachers has risen by a very small number. In March 1963, of the 1,977 African teachers in training colleges and secondary classes, only 32 per cent were graduates and only 15.5 per cent had any post-matric. professional qualifications at all, and 52 per cent were not even matriculated. Those were the teachers in the training schools and the secondary schools, so one can therefore assume that the very best teachers in the Department would be seconded to the more advanced teaching in secondary schools and teacher training colleges. If 52 per cent of those teachers in 1963 were not even matriculated, I do not think it helps us to say that the number of teachers increased by more than half. These figures can be used in any way that one cares to use them, but judging by pure educational standards they are, as far as I am concerned, pretty well meaningless.

We also hear, and one is always pleased to hear, that the number of Bantu matriculants has increased. The report tells us that in the junior and senior certificate examinations— and the latter includes the matriculation examination—22 per cent and 28.2 per cent more candidates respectively passed than in 1962. This report is for the year ended 1963, and it goes on to say that this brings the total number of passes in the junior and matriculation examinations to 78.2 per cent and 60.2 per cent respectively. Very good, there is an increase, and one is very glad to hear it. But now let us forget percentages and look at the actual figures, because after all if one student passed in 1962 and two passed in 1963 that is a 100 per cent increase, but it does not give us the total number of matriculants. In fact the figures are as follows. They are not quite as ridiculous as the example I have given, but they are not much different when one thinks of the total overall Bantu population. In 1963 there were 246 Bantu matriculants and in 1964 the number had risen to 298, less than 300.

What was the figure in 1944?

That is not important. This is after 11 years of this experiment which was going to do enormous things for the Bantu children, which was going to educate them to such a vast extent. It is now 11 years, practically a school life, starting in the kindergarten and ending in matric., and one is entitled now to expect some spectacular results, if all the promises made at the time had come true. In fact, the percentage of increase in regard to matriculants does not mean a thing. There were less than 300 Bantu matriculants in the whole of South Africa in 1964. [Time limit.]

I should like hon. members to bear in mind while I am talking that Bantu education is not compulsory. I shall also be referring quite a bit to statistics which are official, and which I obtained less than a fortnight ago from the Department of Bantu Education. I do not wish to say that examination results are the only yardstick by which one can test the success of education, but before I come to that, I want to deal with the prerequisites for good examination results, which are in fact of great interest. I refer in the first place to the increasing interest as appears, inter alia, from the willingness to render service and the willingness on the part of the Bantu parents to accept responsibility, and it should be noted that originally there was tremendous opposition. When the first school boards and school committees were established in 1954, many of these bodies had to function with nominated members and no elected members as the result of the opposition on the part of the Bantu. That this opposition and suspicion has been changed into enthusiasm is proved, inter alia, by the fact that there are 36,000 Bantu serving on the 5,101 school committees to-day. There are 25 Bantu parent committees and three advisory councils for the three university colleges. There are advisory committees for each of the seven population groups, and there is the Central Education Council which is similar to the Whites’ Education Council.

We further note the increase in the number of children attending school by almost 90 per cent in ten years, whilst it is not compulsory to attend school, with a regular promotion of students from the lower primary to the higher primary classes which, at the same time, resulted in a longer school career for each student, and these signs of success resound like a bell. Add to this the increased school attendance from 89 per cent to 93 per cent in the light of two facts, viz. in the first place that school attendance is not compulsory, and secondly, that the number of children attending school has increased tremendously, then we have further proof of the success achieved.

But let us also test the Bantu by their willingness to make financial contributions. Then we find that in 1962 they voluntarily contributed an amount of R5,870,000 for stationery, books, school funds, examination fees, boarding fees, buildings and teachers’ salaries. In addition to this, the direct contribution from taxation was about R6,500,000. But one of the most convincing proofs of progress is the standard quality of the examinations set, and I just want to point out that there is no difference between the standards set for the examinations of Whites and non-Whites. I have the examination results before me, and I should just like to read them.

The results for Std. VI, Junior Certificate and Matriculation examinations show a steadily rising curve in respect of the number of candidates for these examinations, as well as the numbers who pass. The following serve as examples. I take Standard VI. In 1960 there were 47,623 candidates, as against 68,867 in 1963; i.e., there was an increase of 20,000 candidates in three years. The number who passed in 1960 was 37,530, as against 57,310 in 1963, again an increase in the number of passes of 20,000 in three years. Expressed as a percentage, the passes in 1960 were 78.8 per cent, as against 83.2 per cent in 1963 and 84.2 per cent in 1964. Those who acquired the continuation certificates also increased from 41.5 per cent in 1960 to 48.1 per cent in 1964. I now take the Junior Certificate examination. The number of Junior Certificate candidates increased from 1959 to 1964 by 48.5 per cent. In 1959 .1 per cent achieved distinction, as against .43 per cent in 1964, and the passes increased from 41.8 per cent in 1959 to 74.33 per cent in 1964. Lastly, I take the Matriculation examination. From 1959 to 1964 the number of candidates increased by 46.7 per cent. The percentage of those who received exemption from Matriculation rose from 9.32 per cent in the difficult year 1959 to 29.9 per cent in 1964, whereas the total passes—and I think this is an impressive figure—increased from 29 per cent in 1959 to 61.5 per cent in 1964.

I now want to point out the great advantages derived from the Bantu education system by the non-Whites as well as the Whites in the complicated pattern of life. The education system ensures the development of the whole man, physically, psychologically, sociologically, educationally, aesthetically, ethnically, intellectually and in the religious sphere. He is trained to become a useful and worthy member of his community who is taught to give and receive guidance in his own homeland. Education is an integral part of his formation and development socially, constitutionally, economically and educationally. For the eventual control over and the government of his own homeland, he has to rely on education for his leaders, teachers, clerks, accountants, doctors, dentists, nurses, attorneys, advocates, traders, farmers, engineers, mechanics, builders and numerous others—in other words, independent development leading to eventual total self-government. He can learn these things at school to a large extent from the education he receives to-day and as it is planned by the Department of Bantu Education.

But what advantage do the Whites derive from this education received by the Bantu? The result must inevitably be that White manpower is freed to render service to the Whites to the extent that the non-Whites are enabled by education to take over from the Whites. Secondly, his increased efficiency and greater participation in his own development must strengthen the economy of the Bantu, with a resultant reduction in the burden of taxation on the Whites on behalf of the non-Whites. In the third place, greater knowledge gives the Bantu greater maturity, a better understanding and an independent judgment free from any indoctrination in regard to sound relations between Whites and non-Whites, to the benefit of both sections.

Then there are a few general points I want to mention. I want to say that the education we are giving the Bantu to-day will be a strong factor in assisting in eventually reversing the flow of non-Whites to the White urban areas, because this education will enable him to render the necessary service in his homeland when the development there is in full swing, and he will then render those services to his own people in his own areas. I also want to point out that when we have educated and developed the non-White in this country, he will, as a citizen of his own country, increase the possibilities there and will help to develop his own areas dynamically. For that he needs the education he is receiving under this system. We must admit that eventually it will lead to his being relieved in his own homeland of the socio-political alienage which he still to some extent suffers from, and this education we give him will undoubtedly assist in that direction. I repeat that it will free him from this socio-political alienage in a country belonging to others. This education will assist him voluntarily to accept the essential, inexorable and exacting conditions of actual apartheid.

I want to mention a last thought. This education will assist in bringing about the time when there will be complete segregation in South Africa. We will have only a limited number of Bantu in the White area on a basis of voluntary labour. [Time limit.]

Neither the hon. member for Prieska (Mr. Stander) nor the hon. member for Waterberg (Mr. Heystek) has replied to the hon. member for Kensington (Mr. Moore). I still agree with my colleague. I cannot agree that it is the number receiving education that counts; it is the standard that counts, and the standard of education given to the Bantu children to-day is obviously of the same standard as that of the hon. member for Cradock in the front bench over there. The complete rejection of the system by the Transkei is understandable to me. But I do not want to proceed along these particular lines. I want to deal with the vocational training and trade schools, another aspect of African education, and I particularly ask the hon. member for Waterberg to listen to me.

A question to the Minister of Bantu Education recently elicited the fact that there were 21 vocational training schools for Africans spread around the country in addition to the one run by the Johannesburg Municipality in Soweto. In the Johannesburg school at present there are 165 students and they are being trained in building, carpentry, electrical and plumbing trades. They are, in law, limited to serving their own people in Soweto: they are allowed to act as independent contractors there, and a number are also absorbed in the city engineering department and the electricity department. but, I assume, still theoretically limited to working in their own areas. According to recent information received from the Minister, students at the Department’s other vocational training or trade schools numbered 894 at the end of 1964—not many, but a start, even though it is a very late start. These men are trained in all the building trades and, in addition, in tailoring, leather work, upholstery, sheet-metal work, cabinet-making, motor and general mechanics—in fact in all the trades so jealously guarded until recently by the White trade unions, who must obviously have agreed to the training of these Africans in these particular trades, otherwise I am sure the Government would not have agreed to it, but I hope the Minister will confirm the fact. I hope the Minister will confirm in his reply that the unions have so agreed. These men. after completion of a course at one of these centres, receive a certificate from the Department which is recognized by the Government for employment as qualified tradesmen in Bantu homelands. That is the expression used by the hon. the Minister when he replied to a question by me. This, apparently, applies to all courses. Any African who qualifies at one of these places can go to a so-called Bantu homeland and practice his trade as a qualified artisan for his own people.

The candidate who has completed his training in any of the building subjects may, in addition. once he has completed his course or when he has gained more practical building experience, take a trade test of the Department of Labour and. if successful, is qualified to work as a building worker in any proclaimed Bantu township. He can work in a homeland and a Bantu township. The other man can only work in a Bantu homeland.

Turning to other livelihoods for a moment, Mr. Chairman, there is also an instruction from the Department of Bantu Administration which vetoes the opening up of branches by any African trader, prohibits certain types of business in the townships, not in the homeland, and is intended to encourage African traders to move to their own so-called homelands or areas.

Mr. Chairman, on one of many visits to Soweto, when I was accompanied by a few hon. members from this side of the House, we were told that the garages in this township —doing a vast amount of business selling petrol because, as we all know, the Africans have thousands of cars—were not allowed to employ mechanics. The hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration confirmed this to me recently when I asked him whether African mechanics trained at vocational training centres could work at their trade in Soweto, and the answer was no. just plain no. The position in general is most obscure. I now want to refer to something which the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration told us a couple of days ago. I want to ask the hon. the Minister please to tell me whether any Bantu mechanic, sheet-metal worker, cabinet-maker, tailor—and any other Bantu who is being taught one of the trades he is teaching the Bantu—will be allowed to take a job in any of the Bantu areas elsewhere in the country when these areas are in close proximity to large White towns.

You see, Mr. Chairman, it would really be pleasant to know what the real position is regarding these men. They are being trained in many trades which, until recently, were limited to the Whites. If they start in an area adjacent or near to a large White area, they are bound to have work brought to them at the expense, possibly, of White workers, by reason of the fact that they will be much cheaper. If. however, they are limited to areas far away from White towns, there will probably be no work for them under present conditions and they will consequently move to Basutoland or Swaziland. In the result all the money spent by us on their training will be wasted. Mr. Chairman, our teachers are already moving to what used to be the Protectorates, and I am told in Johannesburg very many men who have been trained as building workers, and who have received Government recognition as qualified building workers, are also moving there.

I should like the hon. the Minister to lift the veil of obscurity that hangs over this matter and let me know—because I am coming to the position in Durban in a moment— how far away from a large White area must an African tradesman—one of the Minister’s qualified tradesmen—how far away from a large White area must he be before he can start working at his trade.

You see, Mr. Chairman, in Durban this position has arisen. We are told that Kwa Mashu is a Bantu township. We are told Umlazi is an African homeland. Only two days ago the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration told us that Umlazi was a Bantu homeland. So all these men trained by the Minister can start in business in Umlazi, they can have as many branches as they like. Yet, Mr. Chairman, except for the fact that Umlazi is on a different side of the City of Durban, it is no different from Kwa Mashu vis-a-vis that city. We thus have the position that if a man who is trained by the hon. the Minister in certain trades goes and lives in Kwa Mashu, he cannot practise his trade there, whereas if he goes to live on the other side of town, if he goes to what is in effect another suburb of Durban, he can work at whatever trade he likes. If the hon. the Minister tells me that there will still be no permission for the White man to send his car into a Bantu garage in Umlazi, he will send it with a Bantu driver. Surely the Minister knows that if a White man can get his work done cheaper at a Bantu garage in Umlazi and he is not allowed to make use of the cheaper service, he will get a Bantu to take his car to the garage and fetch it for him when it has been repaired. Mr. Chairman, there is no difference between an African practising his trade in Kwa Mashu and one practising his trade in Umlazi, in any case not in the eyes of any ordinary, sensible, sane man. I see the hon. the Minister laughs, and he may well laugh, but I am still waiting for him to tell me where the difference lies. I have discussed this matter with quite a number of members on this side ...

He will sneak over to Kwa Mashu then it will be a homeland.

. . . Well, that was denied the other day, and were told there is a big difference between Kwa Mashu and Umlazi. Umlazi is a homeland! It is the spirit of the Black man! There is something I should like the Minister to answer, and if he does not answer it, I will answer it for him. Can an African motor mechanic qualified in a Vocational Training Centre work in Umlazi? I think the Minister will dodge the question. I do not think he will answer it, and therefore I will answer it. The answer is a plain Yes. My authority is no-one less than the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration. He said Umlazi is a Bantu homeland. This Minister said the homelands are the only places where these trained Bantu men can work, in competition with the White man.

Mr. Chairman, it is an intriguing thought that a Bantu living in Kwa Mashu, a Bantu Township, is unable to work at these trades, excepting the building trades and he can have no branch business, while in Umlazi, which is a Bantu homeland—one must not neglect to make that big distinction, Sir! he can carry on any trade in which he is qualified, particularly as a motor mechanic. If I am wrong, I want the hon. the Minister to tell me where I am wrong. But I am confident I am not wrong, Sir. I do not want to over-emphasize these points. Sir, but nevertheless I feel these things must be said. We all know why Black motor mechanics are not allowed to work in Soweto. Will the hon. the Minister tell me why he will let them work in Umlazi, and whether the White trade unions are in agreement with the arrangements the Minister is making?

Mr. Chairman, I think that this House has listened this evening with great disappointment to the way in which the Opposition has adopted an extremely negative attitude in regard to this matter. Sir, I think that they, as educationists, ought to adopt a far more positive attitude. All we on this side heard was criticism. The whole system of Bantu education was cut to ribbons; they maligned the system and wrote it off as a failure. But the hon. member for Kensington (Mr. Moore) ought to be able to discriminate and realize the good that there is in a system and he should also praise these good and positive features. Let him then continue to indicate and dismember the negative and weak aspects of this education system.

The hon. member for Houghton (Mrs. Suzman) referred to numbers and said—quite correctly—that percentages can be very misleading. We know this, Mr. Chairman. She spoke about numbers; she mentioned numbers. But she did not succeed in proving that the education of the Bantu has deteriorated since it was taken over by the Department of Bantu Education. If she had wanted to prove this, she should have indicated what the position was before the take-over took place. She should have told us how many matriculants there were previously. But the hon. member did not mention these figures to us, Sir. She did not refer to them. Accordingly, she did not draw a comparison. The hon. member should have told us how many Bantu matriculants there were before the Department took over. But she was silent in this regard; she simply condemned this system.

Mr. Chairman, when one deals with and investigates the work of this Department, one may find many things which one can criticize.

The hon. member for Kensington is a worthy member and he is an educationist. That is why I am sorry that one of the worst points of criticism which was raised here this evening was forthcoming from him. I am referring to the fact that he so openly attacked the Bantu parent. He made them out to be virtually riffraff, people who were unworthy to occupy positions on school boards and so forth. As an educationist, his approach should have been completely different. He should have said that they still had a great deal to learn and that they still had to develop a proper sense of values before they would be able to allow full justice to be done to the system and before they would be able to appoint the right persons. But, instead of approaching the matter from this angle, he condemned everything that the Bantu parent is doing, and this while one of the most praiseworthy things achieved by this Department has been that it has made the Bantu parent realize that he has a share in the education of his child and that he must do what he can.

Sir, we know that many mistakes will be made in the initial stages. Has the hon. member not seen how often the White parents have first had to learn before they have been able to perform their tasks? That is why I say that it is a pity that he made that accusation. I say that it is a pity that he spoke contemptuously of the role which the Bantu parent is playing in respect of the education of the Bantu child.

Mr. Chairman, we must ask ourselves what this Department has achieved since it took over Bantu Education, since Bantu education has been administered by it. When we ask this question we think involuntarily of the position in which Bantu education was before the takeover took place. The hon. member for Benoni (Mr. Ross) he is not in the House at the moment—said that the standard was poor. But he did not tell us what yardstick he used. Does he know what those Bantu schools, the church schools, were like before they were taken over? Can he tell us what was achieved by those schools? What yardstick does he use to judge the standard which, according to him, is so poor?

When we want to talk about Bantu Education and what it has achieved, I think that the first important step forward was that Bantu education put a language into the mouth of the Bantu child for which he has respect. The Bantu languages were previously nothing but colloquial languages. They were only colloquial languages and, let me add, Sir, inferior colloquial languages. There was nothing written in the Bantu languages. But what has happened since the take-over? The fact is, Mr. Chairman, that since the Department of Bantu Education elevated them to a language-medium, the prestige of those Bantu languages has risen. The result is that over the past ten years no fewer than one thousand different publications have seen the light of day, besides all the periodicals, newspapers and so forth which appear in Bantu languages. The Bantu read these avidly, They are becoming proud of their language. The subjective effect of all this is that the Bantu child is becoming proud of the fact that he is able to speak his own language and also that he can receive his education in his own language. The Bantu parent is also proud of the fact that his child can return from school and say that he has learnt this or that in his own language from his own teacher. The Bantu teacher is also proud of the fact that he is teaching through the medium of his own language. He is able to give expression in this way to what is inherent in him.

A great deal of research has already been done in respect of Bantu languages. Lexicographical and terminological lists have been drawn up and have received international recognition. Educationists throughout the world are now taking note of them. Moreover, the Bantu languages are developing to such an extent that before long they will not only be the medium of education in the schools but will also justify the status of scientific languages and will be used at universities. This is one of the good fruits obtained since the Department took over Bantu education.

There is another important point and in this connection I am sorry that the hon. member for Benoni is not here because he spoke along these lines. Psychological services have been instituted since the Department took over Bantu education. These services were instituted in 1962. These services are very important as far as the education of the child is concerned. The child cannot be educated properly to-day if he does not have those psychological services, services which have been adapted to the needs of the Bantu child. What did the Bantu child have in this respect in the past? There was no proper intelligence test to be applied in his regard; there were no interest tests and aptitude tests for him. The tests which there were were standardized to the requirements of the White child and yet we know that similar tests which have for example, been standardized for the American child cannot be applied to the White child in South Africa. How much more is this not the case in regard to tests standardized for White children and which are applied to the Bantu child? The counting patterns are in no way comparable and so these tests are worthless as far as the Bantu child is concerned. But as soon as the Department took over Bantu education, it started doing research, and tests have already been drawn up—interest tests, aptitude tests and so forth—which can be applied to the Bantu child. What results have already been achieved? Do you know that last year 40,000 of the 75,000 Bantu children in Std. VI were tested? Moreover, the examiners were Bantu! They worked under the supervision of White psychology officials. Is this not a tremendous step forward? These tests are one of the most important means of classifying the Bantu child. It can now be ascertained whether a particular child has any academic flair or whether he should leave school in Std. VI. It can now be determined whether that child has any flair to warrant his going further than Std. VI. With the assistance of interest and aptitude tests it can now be determined in which direction his progress lies. A direction can now be found for him which fits in with his interests and his aptitude. The child who cannot go any further than matriculation, and this because he has no aptitude for further development, can now be discovered and classified. [Time limit.]

The hon. member who has just sat down has asked for some constructive criticism. Well, I intend now to give him some constructive criticism. For example, one thing with which I agree is the statement appearing in the report which I criticized earlier on, that plans with regard to secondary education must now be made on an ever-increasing scale. I could not agree more with this statement. It is essential that from now on the hon. the Minister and his Department concentrate their efforts as much as possible in giving increased priority to secondary education for African children. Unless this is done we shall not be able to train sufficient teachers to cope with the ever-increasing number of children who will have to be admitted to the primary schools. Unless we step up our efforts to provide more secondary education we will not be able to supply the matriculated students who are to go to the universities. students who, after completing their university studies, will form the pool from which the experts in the various fields will be drawn to work amongst the Bantu people, according to Government policy. This should be priority No. 1, Sir. Every country, where there is a large under-educated, under-developed population, has to face the problem of whether to devote more time to primary education, to try and raise the over-all literacy of the population, or whether to concentrate on secondary education, realizing that in fact that is the key to the ultimate education of the entire population. This is the position in Uganda and other countries throughout Africa which are facing this problem. It has been found that priority one should really be to concentrate on secondary education rather than to increase the literacy of the nation as a whole.

This is particularly necessary in our country, Sir, because in a country such as South Africa, where we have increasing wealth and an expanding economy, the proportion of pupils receiving secondary education should in fact be showing a steady increase until a stage is reached where secondary education is universal. I presume that is the aim of the Government. It certainly is my aim to have free and compulsory education for all children in South Africa, irrespective of race or colour, because I believe education is the key to prosperity in the country; it is the best investment the country can possibly make. The aim should be to have an educated population, irrespective of colour. Therefore, Sir, it is important that we start raising the percentage of children in secondary schools in relation to the total number of children at school. It is a fact that the percentage of children in secondary schools in South Africa in the year 1953 was three per cent of the school-going population. Yet we find that in 1962 it was still three per cent.

But meanwhile there has been a very large increase in the school-going population.

Yes, I agree there has been a large increase, but the percentage here is important: it is a ratio of the number of children of school-going age compared to the number of children in secondary classes. That should be an ever-increasing ratio. But, Sir, in South Africa over the last ten years that ratio has remained constant. It is interesting to note when studying the figures bearing on the school-going populations of other African countries, countries which are, compared to South Africa, under-developed, to find that the percentage of children attending school in the secondary standards compared to the entire school-going population is higher than in South Africa.

Do not give us percentages. Let us have the actual figures.

The hon. member must not make silly debating points. I have already made the distinction. In this case I am using ratios in the same school-going populations.

You do that when it suits your purpose.

No, that is nonsense. It is not a question of when it suits me. I am quoting statistical facts, and the hon. member must not be so stupid. There are six countries in Africa where there is a higher percentage of the school-going population—-not of the total population—in secondary schools.

We should be expanding our secondary school education as fast as possible, Mr. Chairman. The reason why this is not done is, of course, because secondary education is more expensive than primary education. Here again one comes back to the real crux of the matter, namely the pegging of the amount spent on Bantu Education from Central Government funds, and the reliance on the African population—the poorest section of the community —to supply the additional funds required to educate the ever-increasing number of children of school-going age. As —and other members—have said before, this is a policy which should be abandoned if South Africa is to develop the full potential of the entire population of this country, and in particular the educated African population.

Another thing that is bad and to which I should now like to refer is the fact that the teacher/pupil ratio has also deteriorated. When the Native Education Commission sat in 1949 they examined the system and found that in 1949 there were 6,000 students in Bantu training colleges, and they recommended that training facilities should be doubled. They said that by 1955 we should have 10,000 students in training colleges and by 1959 the figure should have risen to 15,000. But what do we find, Mr. Chairman? The position is that in 1962 there were only 4,300 students at our training colleges. This figure is lower than the number of students being trained at the time the Native Education Commission was sitting.

As I mentioned earlier, the qualifications of the teachers have also deteriorated. There are still far too many teachers who are not even matriculated, let along being graduates from universities. To get some absolute figures again —there were only 38 more graduate teachers in 1963 than there were in 1949. Yet the number of pupils has doubled over the same period!

These are general criticisms which I consider are very important, and I hope the hon. member will regard my remarks as being in the nature of constructive criticism.

There is something else which I wish to mention very briefly to the hon. the Minister. I wish to state that I disapprove strongly of the policy of providing high schools mostly in the rural areas. Why should this be, Sir? There are millions of Africans in the urban areas, many of whom are there permanently— thousands .upon thousands, in fact—and why should the parents of African children who wish their children to receive a secondary education have to send them away-.to schools in the country districts, where boarding fees have to be paid? Why is there not more concentration on the building of high schools in urban areas, which are the areas where one is likely to find the most advanced elements of the African population? I commend the matters I have mentioned to the hon. the Minister.

Have you found any good points yet?

Yes, I said the good points are that the Department of Bantu Education has said it is going to concentrate on secondary education. That, I am afraid, is. all I can find to praise at this stage.

Mr. Chairman, the main thing, of course, is that we must concentrate on avoiding this tremendous over-all wastage of children. We must try to keep African children at school for far longer periods than they are at present spending there. I realize, of course, that this links up ineluctably with the economic situation throughout the country. Because quite obviously many of the children leave school simply because many of the parents are unable to afford to keep them at school. They need them to augment the family income.

Thus we have to look to two things, Mr. Chairman. In the first place we should see to it that education is free. This is not so at present because children have to pay for books, something which the White children do not do, at any rate not in the Transvaal. In addition parents have to pay a monthly fee in order to keep their children at school. Also, parents are levied by School Boards to provide salaries for teachers in cases where Government funds are not forthcoming—to pay those teachers.

All these are factors which make it extremely difficult for the poorest section of the community to keep the children at school for any length of time beyond Std. 2 or Std 3. As I have said, more than half of the children leave school in Std. 3. I consider these matters should all be considered by the hon. the Minister. [Time limit.]

The hon. member for Houghton in the beginning of her speech emphasized that the percentage of Bantu students in secondary schools as compared with students in the primary schools has remained constant, particularly over the past ten years. Did I understand her correctly?

Yes.

I now want to point out how the numbers of students increased in Bantu education since 1963. From 1953 to 1962 there was an increase of 130 per cent in the number of children at school. This increase mainly relates to the primary division. In the period 1953 to 1963 additional school facilities were provided for more than 900,000 Bantu children. These facts, however, do not impress the hon. member. The fact is that the number of Bantu children at school increased both in regard to actual numbers and as a percentage. And students must surely first receive primary education before they can go to the secondary schools!

She also referred to a few African states and pointed out that the percentage of children in secondary schools as compared with primary schools in those states is higher than it is here. But she did not dare to give us the figure in regard to school attendance as a whole in those countries. It is easy to understand that where there are only a small number of students at school, the ratio of secondary to primary students may be high.

Now I just want to refer to something which was mentioned by the hon. member for Benoni. The hon. member said: “It is not numbers that count, but the standard”. But it is clear that this hon. member did not listen to the speech of the hon. member for Waterberg. Possibly the hon. member does not understand Afrikaans too well, because the hon. member for Waterberg went into the matter deeply. The hon. member for Benoni is not here now, but for the sake of the record I want to quote certain statistics. In 1963, 75 per cent of candidates (Bantu) passed the Junior Certificate examination and 60.4 per cent passed the Senior Certificate. It is therefore not in examinations where the questions were set by the teachers themselves. In 1964 the percentage was more or less the same, namely approximately 75 per cent in the Junior Certificate and 61.5 per cent in the Senior Certificate. That definitely shows that the standard of work is good.

But I really want to deal with the hon. member for Kensington. He was the first speaker of the United Party on this Vote. In his speech he dealt mainly with two aspects. In the first place he again quoted from the report of the commission of inquiry which we discussed so fully in 1963. He quoted long passages from it. Secondly, he quoted from the Transkei Hansard. In this respect he confined himself to the school boards in the Transkei, which he alleges are such a failure. The hon. member for Kimberley (South) has already partially replied to it, but I want to deal with it further. What the hon. member for Kensington dealt with is not one of the great basic principles of Bantu education. This system of school boards has been in operation for all these years amongst the Whites also. Here and there the basis of the composition of those school boards of the Whites has already been changed. In regard to the Bantu, they must surely first be educated to apply this system properly. The hon. member also made a great fuss in regard to bribery which is alleged to take place in respect of members of school boards. But I again want to emphasize that as far as school boards are concerned there is no deviation in principle. In communal schools in the Transkei the community really still controls the education.

The basic idea in education and its application—I am referring mainly to Bantu education —is that it should be autogenous, in accordance with the policy of this Government. That is the basic idea underlying Bantu education to-day. Here we of course differ from the United Party. For half a century and even longer the valuable traditional institutions of the Bantu were not borne in mind. Instead of that, there was an attempt to westernize the Bantu. In other words, he had to be turned into a Black westerner, without his own culture or any links with his own culture. He therefore did not have his own culture as the background for his education. In other words, they wanted to turn him into an artificial person.

But under this Government things began to change. The principle was increasingly applied that the culture of the Bantu and its instilment into the minds of the adolescent youth in the secondary schools should be a requirement in their education. The principle of autogenous education is universally accepted by educationists. In September 1962 there was an education conference in Tananarive, where 31 African states were represented. This conference took place under the aegis of Unesco. The speech made by the hon. member for Kensington to-night practically consisted only of quotations. Now I also want to quote from a resolution adopted at that conference. It reads as follows—

Here it was resolved, in other words, that they were in favour of the standpoint that students should receive their pregraduate education in their own countries and among their own people and in their own communities. It was also resolved that the Western education system did not comply with the demands and requirements of Africa, because it broke the link between these people and their own communities and countries and weaned them from the aspirations of their own people. [Time limit.]

I have listened with interest to what the hon. member who has just sat down has said. I think he realizes that this side has pointed out the deficiencies in Bantu education in South Africa. Here I should like to say that the hon. member for Pretoria (East) together with the hon. member for Prieska, and also the hon. members who spoke before him, not one of these hon. gentlemen has highlighted the deficiency in the Bantu Education Vote every year, namely the lack of finance. The hon. member for Pretoria (East) was talking of the principles of education for the Bantu, and in this regard I should like to draw his attention to what Sir Eric Ashley, the great educationist, has said about African education in the Godbein lectures to Harvard in the U.S.A. last year. He said that the main aim of African education should be to find the means first of establishing lines of communication and contact between the educated Africans and those masses who are not educated, and secondly, that all education courses should be organized so that the educational standards are never lowered or constricted.

You cannot convince me with that.

Our hopes were focussed on this year’s Budget for an urgent and generous revision of what I should like to describe as this “mini-minor” allocation of funds with which the hon. the Minister and his Department have to administer this Vote. There are two sources of finance for Bantu education, Mr. Chairman. Firstly there is the pegged sum of R 13,000,000. During the decade in which the present system of Bantu education has been in operation the total State expenditure from Revenue has doubled. In terms of total expenditure the State contribution to Bantu Education to-day is only half of the original figure in spite of the increased †school enrolment. On the other hand, the contribution from Bantu taxation has risen substantially over these years, because in the first place the rate of Bantu taxation has increased, and in the second place the share of the general tax paid into the Bantu Education Account has increased from 80 per cent to 100 per cent. Because of the rise in Bantu earnings, there has been an increase in taxes paid by them. In the result the Bantu Education Fund has benefited and has risen from some R4,500,000 to very nearly R8,000,000 to-day. Though the hon. the Minister has on a previous occasion stated that only a certain percentage of the Bantu does in fact pay their taxes, he has not been able to establish the relevant figures.

At the end of 1964 there were some 530 degree students at the three Bantu universities. I feel there must be a significant expansion of education in order that the number of students at Bantu universities may increase. I should like to give the hon. Minister some figures regarding universities and the student population in other countries on the African Continent. Nigeria has five universities with over 6,000 students, with another 6.000 studying overseas. The University of East Africa has 1,200 students. There are some 5,000 students from Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania studying overseas. Ghana has 3,000 students at her universities, apart from large numbers studying overseas. These figures relate only to what were British West and East African countries. From the former French African countries 25,000 students are at present studying overseas. According to our 1964 figures we only have 1,897 students at our universities here in South Africa.

Business interrupted to report progress.