I move— That the Bill be now read a third time.

This legislation represents a very pleasing feature indeed of this particular subject in our legal legislation, and has been very much welcomed indeed both by the legal profession and by other bodies and persons who carry out the administration of estates and other various duties which are provided for by this legislation. It is interesting to note that this is the first major recast of this particular feature of our law over a period of 50 years, because the Act became law in 1913, and it is in the light of the experience over the last 50 years that these satisfactory changes have been made in the Bill before us.

I think one should not allow this opportunity to pass without paying a tribute to the various Masters of the Supreme Court and the staff in their offices who have operated under this legislation over the last 50 years. I think they have built up the art of administration of estates in our country to a very high standard, and I think it follows other features of our legislation which have virtually become the envy of other countries of the world, particularly for the lack of formalities and other forms of red tape which very often involve this type of service, very often leading to many wasted years of deliberation and administration before matters are brought to a satisfactory conclusion, also involving many persons in litigation and considerable expense. When one compares the features of administration of estates in this country with the administration of estates and similar matters regarding probate of wills and so on, in other parts of the world, I think we have a great deal to be pleased about and can indeed very generously lavish congratulations on the heads and shoulders of those to whom the lot has fallen to deal with this legislation. I would also like to say that the House has endeavoured during the Committee Stage to try to give the hon. the Minister the benefit of the experience of various members in the administration of this feature of our law, and the hon. the Minister himself has made an important contribution by way of various amendments that he has brought to some of these clauses during the Committee Stage. I am very pleased indeed to note, and I am speaking on behalf of this side of the House, that there are other features of the various clauses in the Bill to which the hon. Minister will continue to give his attention, and I feel satisfied that when it eventually reaches our Statute Book we will have a very fine piece of legislation, which, I am sure, will take very many years indeed before we will find it necessary to bring forward any major amendments. These matters are of particular interest to the legal profession which is a very conservative profession, and I think that it is in keeping with the spirit of that profession that we have been able freely to deal with this Bill and to review the changes that have been made and assist in the general form in which it now appears before us. We support the third reading of this Bill.

Mr. Speaker, I trust you will allow me to associate myself heartily with what the hon. member for Florida (Mr. Miller) has just said. I am also grateful to him for having referred to the part played by the Department in this connection. Not only have the officials of the Department worked very hard but they have gone out of their way to consult all interested parties in this connection and to take their wishes in consideration as far as possible. The object of this legislation is to enable estates to be finalized as smoothly as possible and to expedite the winding up process as much as possible. I think we shall succeed in that regard. But as further experience is gained in practice other defects will manifest themselves and it will always be the object of the Department to remedy those defects to the best of its ability. I really only got up to express my appreciation to the lawyers on both sides of the House for the way in which they have co-operated in the Committee Stage in order to make this Bill as acceptable as possible and to ensure further that it will operate smoothly. I thank hon. members and in fulfilling my undertaking I should like to have further discussions with them in connection with those matters which are still outstanding.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill read a third time.

I move—

Mr. Speaker, the Correspondence Colleges Bill is the culmination of diverse efforts made over the past third of a century to establish control over the activities of correspondence colleges. The first representations on record were received from the Council of the University of South Africa in connection with the facilities for tuition by correspondence provided by these organizations in the case of external students.

The Council felt that students having recourse to such correspondence colleges were frequently misled, as the direction received by them was often superficial and inadequate on account of the limited material on which the so-called lectures were based.

The Council had grave doubts as to the ability of these colleges, with the limited and, in many cases, apparently poorly qualified personnel responsible for the preparation of their so-called lectures, to prepare students properly, as they claimed to do, for almost every certificate, diploma, course or degree that it was possible to take.

Certain methods of advertising and of obtaining students were, the Council alleged, open to question and the charge made for the various courses appeared to the Council to be exorbitant. As a result of the conditions usually imposed on students, it was extremely difficult for the Council to obtain complete information, but both the Council and the Senate of the University were convinced that, in the interests of secondary and higher education in general and for the protection of the prospective students in particular, the whole question of correspondence colleges required careful investigation.

The University of South Africa eventually solved its own particular problem by the establishment of its Division of External Studies in 1946 and subsequently by making provision, in Chapter VIII of its Statute, paragraph 28, for compulsory enrolment for tuition, in these terms:

The general question, however, remained unsolved despite representations from different sources. The Secretary of the Education Department in Natal, for instance, inquired about a little-known correspondence college that advertised certain concessions in connection with Natal examinations for non-European students. A complaint was likewise received from the Director of Native Education in Rhodesia about correspondence schools in this country that were more interested in the collection of fees than in helping the pupils.

* Attention was also given at the time to contracts drawn up by correspondence colleges and which they got the youngsters who were anxious to improve their position to sign. Those youngsters often found themselves in the position of having to pay for the full course although circumstances had arisen which made it impossible for them to continue with their studies. If they did not pay the full amount a summons was issued against them and a court order obtained against them for payment of the outstanding amount plus costs. Ex-volunteers were another group who were often exploited in this way by such private institutions. For the rest there were numerous correspondence colleges which advertised a variety of courses which did not end in the writing of recognized examinations or the attainment of certificates. These are only a few examples of the very many complaints we have received, some of which were well-founded but in the case of others the institutions had definitely acted correctly.

In order to combat irregularities and undesirable action by correspondence colleges a Correspondence College Bill was drafted on 18 December 1946 and published in Government Gazette No. 3788 for general information. It became clear early in 1947, however, that the Government did not intend going any further with the Bill on correspondence colleges as published in the Government Gazette.

It was pursuant to a recommendation made at the time by the committee on Adult Education that the Government decided in the first place to introduce legislation with the object of providing for the registration by and control of correspondence colleges. The necessary Bill was drafted and published for general information in Government Gazette No. 1. After publication the Government was, however, approached by representatives of some of the leading private correspondence colleges in South Africa. They said that more satisfactory control would be exercised if it were introduced by the colleges themselves on a voluntary basis instead of by means of legislation. The Government consequently agreed to give those gentlemen an opportunity of consulting their colleges and of going into the question of establishing a society which would be representative of correspondence colleges in South Africa. They subsequently reported that a very successful conference, completely representative of those institutions which offered tuition by means of correspondence in South Africa, had been held, that a society had been established and that that society was already drawing up a constitution which would provide for effective control and for the establishment of an organization whose aim would be to eliminate the malpractices which were also the objective of the Bill.

That would of necessity have taken some time and the Government agreed to give the society a reasonable period of time within which to complete their work and to submit their recommendations. In the circumstances it was logical at the time not to proceed with the Bill.

The South African Society of Correspondence Colleges was subsequently registered as a company without a profit motive. Its Memorandum and Articles of Association provided for control to be exercised and the object of its ethical code was to eliminate malpractices. Its registration did not, however, in practice lead to completely effective control because various correspondence colleges were not members of the society and did not want to become members. The society consequently considered the introduction of a private bill, with the approval of the Minister of Education, Arts and Science, to deal with the registration and control of correspondence colleges. A Bill was approved in principle by the Minister in 1956 but certain amendments were insisted upon. It was felt at the time that it should be introduced as a private measure. After further consideration it was decided last year that the Bill would be introduced as a public measure and it was read as such for the first time.

The text of the Bill is that of the South African Association of Correspondence Colleges, as revised after consultation with my colleagues responsible for the education of the Bantu, Coloureds and Indians, for it is intended to provide for the establishment of a Correspondence College Council for the registration of correspondence colleges which cater for non-Whites as well as Whites, and for the establishment of a fidelity guarantee fund. The Council is to have six members, two to be appointed by me and four to be appointed initially by the Association, but after the first two years to be elected by the members of the Council every two years. The provisions for a chairman and vice-chairman, meetings, quorums and procedure, allowances payable, qualifications of members, rectification of errors and related matters follow the usual pattern and call for no special comment at this stage. The Council is to have a registrar, whose duties include the registration of all correspondence colleges providing correspondence tuition for reward and the issue of certificates of registration to them. An annual registration fee, the amount of which is to be prescribed by the rules made by the Council, is payable. In order not to prejudice vested interests, every existing college will be entitled to registration, which is made compulsory, and any person wishing to start a correspondence course in the future will therefore have to register. This applies also to correspondence colleges situated abroad but providing tuition in the Republic by post.

The Correspondence College Council is to be empowered by Clause 13 to prescribe, subject to the approval of the Minister, the minimum qualifications of persons compiling and revising the courses or marking the scripts of students, the minimum standards of service in the conduct of tuition and, generally, any other requirement for the maintenance of the integrity, the enhancement of the status and the improvement of the standards of tuition, and the protection of students; the Council shall not, however, be allowed to prescribe minimum fees. In order to ensure that correspondence colleges comply with the prescribed requirements, the Council may have their tuition service and lectures inspected and, if necessary, in terms of Clause 14 inquire into a complaint or an allegation of improper or disgraceful conduct.

If there has been improper or disgraceful conduct, the Council may caution, reprimand, impose a fine not exceeding R 1,000 or cancel the registration of the guilty college under Clause 15. Clause 16 provides that any person aggrieved by a decision of the Council may appeal to the Minister and Clause 17 enables a correspondence college to apply anew for registration if its previous registration had been cancelled but all the necessary requirements have meanwhile been met. All correspondence colleges in the Republic will have six months to register under the Act.

As I have explained such registration places correspondence colleges under certain obligations towards their students. In order to ensure that nobody suffers any loss a Correspondence College Fidelity Guarantee Fund is being established in terms of Clause 20. This fund will be controlled and used by the council to pay claims against the Fund as well as the legal costs connected with defending any claims, to pay reinsurance premiums, to make refunds where a correspondence college goes out of existence, to pay the expenses involved in the administration of the Fund and so forth.

Each correspondence college will contribute a prescribed amount annually to the fund until the amount so paid in reaches the sum of R 100,000 and the correspondence colleges will be issued with a fidelity fund certificate. The money in the fund will be invested and will be used, where necessary, to compensate people who have suffered on account of a breach of contract on the part of a correspondence college. Provision is made for the payment of claims against the fund; the council is given the right to defend any action brought against the fund and to be subrogated to all the rights and remedies of the claimant.

It is further provided that the council, subject to the approval of the Minister, may make rules which have to be published in the Government Gazette, concerning the manner in which complaints shall be lodged and dealt with, travelling and subsistence allowances, the procedure to be followed at meetings, the registration fees payable, the certificates correspondence colleges may issue, the application for fidelity fund certificates, the notice to be given to the council in respect of a claim against the fund, the annual contributions and such matters. The Minister in turn may issue regulations concerning the election of members to the council, the form of subpoenas and so forth. Any contravention of the Act is punishable by the imposition of a fine not exceeding R500 or imprisonment for a period not exceeding one year.

In conclusion it is no longer necessary to register a correspondence course in terms of the Vocational Education Act of 1955 which is being amended accordingly.

The Correspondence Colleges Act which will come into operation, Mr. Speaker, on a date to be fixed by the State President by proclamation in the Gazette, will make it obligatory on those correspondence colleges which are not members of the South African Society of Correspondence Colleges to register with the Correspondence College Council otherwise they will have to cease their operations within the Republic within six months of the coming into operation of this Act. All members of that Council must observe the ethical code and contribute towards the Fidelity Guarantee Fund so that anybody who suffers any loss as a result of some malpractice or other can claim compensation and be assured that if his claim is justified it will be paid in full.

I think we should express our appreciation to the hon. the Deputy Minister for having sketched, in regard to this Bill, the history of the establishment and growth of these correspondence colleges, and also for having pointed out to us the defects and shortcomings in regard to these colleges. He also went so far as to set out the various defects, and it is therefore not my intention to deal with these aspects of the matter, but rather to deal with other aspects of it.

Mr. Speaker, it is indeed pleasant now and then to get a matter in this House which is important and essential and non-contentious, and in regard to which we can agree and debate on a high level. That applies particularly to this matter because it fulfils various educational needs. Provision is now being made particularly for greater and sounder coordination in the case of these correspondence colleges. The hon. the Deputy Minister has pointed out that this was one of the defects which came to light in the past. Secondly, it provides for more thorough control, and for a definite attempt in the direction of standard provisions which are so necessary. It is so essential that standard provisions should be laid down. Fourthly, the Bill provides for sounder mutual co-operation, which these colleges did not always have in the past, and to which I shall revert later, but which now as the result of this Bill will be to the benefit of the students of the colleges. And, lastly, provision is made for the establishment of a common ethical code, so essential among the men and women connected with these colleges, which in the past, in my opinion, has left so much to be desired and has differed so widely.

Mr. Speaker, there is the necessity in our country, as in any other civilized country, to cater for certain classes of persons, certain classes of students, certain categories of students and pupils, and I think it is the duty of every State to see to it that provision is made for those people in some way, either statutorily or otherwise. In so far as the correspondence colleges are concerned, we have perhaps failed in the past to perform that duty as a State or as a Parliament or as a Government. Every civilized country should see to it-that the child who leaves school at an early age for some reason should be looked after, i.e. that provision should be made for the child who received formal education for only a few years of his life. I think it was the then Secretary of the Commission to which the hon. the Minister referred, the Commission of 1945, who said: “We can no longer allow that child to enter life without a map, without a compass or without an anchor.” If, therefore, he wants to become a fully developed person and does not want to remain half-developed, certain things must be done to give him the opportunity to achieve that. I repeat that the State should see to it that he gets the opportunity to do so. We must give him an opportunity to receive extramural education, either at statutory institutions intramurally or at institutions, statutory or otherwise, by means of correspondence colleges or correspondence classes.

Secondly, the State or the Government should make provision for the young man or woman who wants to study further but cannot afford it, after he or she has left school. We must ensure that there are institutions by means of which they can receive further education by correspondence. Thirdly, there are also those who want to study further, who feel that they want to broaden their studies and broaden their lives. They feel a lack which has to be filled before they can be happy people. Circumstances may prevent them from attending classes at some or other institution. Provision must be made for them too. Firstly, in regard to this class of person, there are those who have already enjoyed higher education, who have already had a university career and who now feel that they want to study still further, that they want to prepare themselves for life still further, to whom I will revert later. We must cater for those persons also, those persons who feel the need to further their studies. Thousands of those falling under these four or five categories I have mentioned simply yearn for facilities to enable them to satisfy their own desire for further development; secondly, to fit themselves better for the career they have chosen; thirdly, to derive financial benefit from their further studies, and fourthly, thereby not only to be or become better citizens of their father-land, but also to become better qualified workers and better providers for their families. We as a State and as a nation should see to it that opportunities are created for every individual who wants to undertake further and more advanced formal study, or who deserves it but cannot afford to remain at school.

I want to quote here the objectives for this type of person set out by the Commission to which the Minister referred, the Adult Education Commission of 1945. The Commission says that we should give these people I have mentioned (these four or five classes of students and scholars) the opportunity to enable them to develop intellectually; to promote their culture; to appreciate spiritual values—which is very important in the life of every individual—and to be sound in body and mind; to be able to enjoy their leisure and to appreciate aesthetic joys. It is so important that every person, man, woman and child, in South Africa should be able to enjoy aesthetic pleasures and to appreciate them; to make more elevated social contacts and to increase their circle of friends; to be able to understand and to appreciate civic duties and privileges; to enrich their emotional life and to appreciate spiritual and moral values. Mr. Speaker, in order to provide for these people we must have post-school bodies, either statutory or otherwise, through which they can do so. In South Africa we have established statutory bodies where that can be done, and also other bodies, non-statutory, on a voluntary or private basis. So we have in South Africa, for example, our technical schools and our technical colleges. Secondly, we have the higher education institutions, as e.g. the University of South Africa, which since 1946 has also had a correspondence section of that university and which has done excellent work. Lastly, we have the correspondence colleges for which provision is being made in this legislation.

As I have said, we have already provided for the first two I have mentioned, viz. technical colleges and the correspondence section of the University of South Africa. Now we are coming a little nearer to the eventual object in regard to this third group, the correspondence colleges—the full development of the system of correspondence colleges. I am afraid that hitherto our correspondence colleges have not received the attention they should have received and that the correspondence colleges have hitherto been regarded and treated as stepchildren. In this Bill we fortunately approach nearer to our eventual objective. This Bill is, however, only a step nearer to the eventual objective, namely a greater realization of our responsibility in regard to this aspect of the matter. I do not want to go into this aspect of the matter further, except to say that I accept this step represented by this Bill on behalf of this side of the House as a step in the right direction. I understand that there are 30 or more of these correspondence colleges, but they are all commercial concerns run for private gain, perhaps with the exception of one or two which devote their funds and their profits to promoting public educational bodies or associations.

The rapid development of correspondence colleges in South Africa ever since their establishment is clear proof of their popularity and desirability. They fulfill a need which is felt in South Africa and for which we have unfortunately not made provision hitherto. We just left it to private individuals to make a start. Well, they have done excellent work but, as the Minister has already indicated, it may easily be that we are creating circumstances and conditions for unsound profit-making. But at the same time I want to say that we as a House and as a nation should be grateful to these people for the manner in which for so many years they have met a need. They have rendered excellent services to thousands of young people. Nevertheless we feel that it is a sound step to make these correspondence colleges register by legislation, and to make them organize, and in that way to some extent to make their work subject to supervision by the State. I trust that it will not be long before we will take the correspondence colleges completely under our wing. I think the time has arrived for us to think along those lines. The existing correspondence colleges, or a large number of them, have a national association, and they have already drawn up an ethical code, but unfortunately the Minister has not told us why the others, which are not members of the S.A. Association of Correspondence Colleges, are not being included in this legislation. I am thinking e.g. of one of the largest colleges, the Britzius Correspondence College, which is not a member of this Association. Then there are also the Lyceum and the Damelin Correspondence Colleges, which also play an important role, neither of which is included in this legislation. I want to ask the Minister whether it is not possible in Clause 4, which provides that as soon as possible after the coming into operation of this Act the S.A. Association of Correspondence Colleges must elect four members of the Council, also to give a say to those colleges which are not members of the Association. In other words, I wonder whether the Minister should not provide in Clause 4 that they will also have a say to some extent.

The existing colleges belonging to this Association have asked for this legislation, as the Minister has told us, and as far as I can ascertain they themselves drafted this legislation and obtained the Minister’s approval of it with only a few minor changes. Therefore we on this side will not oppose the Bill, seeing that the colleges themselves have asked for it and that the Minister has agreed to comply with their wishes. I want to give him the assurance that we on this side will be only too willing to help him if he feels that we can do anything to assist him. We therefore support this legislation.

I heartily welcome this legislation because I have long since felt it was necessary. As indicated, it was the intention of these colleges to introduce a private Bill to put the matter in order. I am extremely grateful to the Minister for various reasons for having come forward with a public measure. The most important reason is that the colleges will now be recognized by the State and, what is more, will now be recognized by the public.

Before I go any further I want to say how pleased I am that we have the support of the other side of the House in this Matter. Certain colleges have been referred to. That does not mean that those colleges are to be left out. For example, right from the beginning I have co-operated very closely and one of the persons with whom I have co-operated most closely is Oscar Britzius. He assisted in drawing up those things. He and I sat at the same table. What I want to emphasize, however, is the fact that this is something which emanates from the colleges themselves and that is a very sound state of affairs. It has been said that there were certain instances originally where colleges had not acted very satisfactorily. Let me again say at once that in a big movement such as this—there are many colleges—there are many people who draw up lectures and post them to students just for the sake of making money. It is not so much a question of the public being aware of the defects but there were and are bodies who are not anxious to join the Society and who do not want to fall under the council to-day because malpractices were indulged in in the past. That position is being remedied by the establishment of the council as such with the powers it will have but mainly by means of the Fidelity Guarantee Fund which will be established so that those persons who want to avail themselves of the services of those colleges will be more confident that they will not lose their money. That was one of the considerations which made those colleges, who had organized this, decide to insist—they had been doing so for nine years—on legislation which would lay down their code of conduct and which would assure the students that there was nothing wrong with them.

They also went further. Reference has been made to standards. Many of the colleges, especially those who only wanted to make money out of the students, thought in the past it was easy simply to roneo stereotype lectures and to sell those without really checking them. Nor did they have properly qualified staff in all cases. Before I took up the matter at the time on behalf of the colleges and brought them in direct contact with the Minister, we were given the assurance, which was passed on to the Minister, that the standard of work they would maintain would be absolutely satisfactory; that they would not only supervise it but that the Council would be constituted in such a way that the representatives of the Minister would be able to report to him from time to time on the position. I am quite satisfied that, in view of this arrangement. everything will be in order as far as the domestic affairs of the correspondence colleges and the colleges themselves are concerned. The management of their society is quite satisfied that everything will be in order. What they have been seeking all these years has been a point of contact with the Department and the Minister so that there could be mutual recognition and so that they could know one another.

Reference has been made to how these colleges have come into existence over the past 30 years. I am very proud of the fact that, where most of the knowledge gained by way of correspondence courses was imported from overseas about 30 years ago, we have the brilliant colleges we do have in this country to-day, colleges which are staffed by people who are fully aware of their responsibility, people who are highly qualified, and what is more, people who have developed a technique which, to judge from the results attained, admirably serves the purpose. Tuition by correspondence is nothing strange, although it is comparatively young. At the beginning many people said it was uneducational, but the educational element which has made those colleges so successful is the very fact that students not only hear what they have to learn, that they not only read what they have to learn but that they do both. The students who receive those lectures and study them usually do so by reading them out aloud. I have also strongly recommended that at their conferences because I have been in touch with these people for many years. Hon. members must not think I have any financial interest in the colleges—none Cinderellas whatsoever—but I always felt that they were the Cinderellas to some extent.

People who were disappointed or jealous of them belittled them and in many cases that was not justified. If I were to mention the names of persons directly concerned with these correspondence colleges, you would realize, Sir, that they were experienced people with high academic qualifications, often principals, inspectors of schools and even professors, people who had concluded their term of office and were now associated with those colleges. There are people with various university degrees. When I asked them what inspection was carried out and what control they had over the standard of the work—a principal of a university was present when I put that question, Professor Pauw of the University of South Africa, a person who is very particular about educational matters—they told me they were prepared at any time to allow a representative of the Department of Education to inspect and criticize their courses and their methods. In other words, they were rather seeking assistance than trying to hide something they were ashamed of. They are in a flourishing position to-day due to the fact —and this guarantees their very right of existence—that amongst the colleges themselves, although they are merged in one society, there is extremely keen competition. I have asked many of the different heads why they cooperated the way they did if there was such keen competition between them. I was told that that competition was the life-blood of the very existence of correspondence colleges; that the competition was sound; that they did not compete for prizes. The tuition fees are reasonable seeing that it is expensive to obtain the services of the best people to draw up the curricula, to maintain them and to adapt them continually. Some people who may feel disappointed have complained that the curricula were obsolete. I have gone into the matter and satisfied myself completely that that is no longer the position to-day except in the case of a few of the outsider and defecting colleges. When I speak of outsider colleges I am not referring to those which have been mentioned here. Britzius and some of the others are colleges which maintain the highest standard and I have nothing against them. I just want to deal with the need which those colleges are meeting. Firstly, you have the student who has his matriculation certificate and who wishes to qualify himself further academically. Some people thought that that was a matter which should be left in the hands of the University of South Africa. I was present at the discussion between the colleges and the principal of the University of South Africa and that problem was solved in a very peaceful and sensible way. There are still some people, however, who think that correspondence colleges lay down their own standards and conduct their own examinations, but that is not true. They are subject to the examinations prescribed by the State and the University of South Africa. The standard of their work is therefore tested in the usual impartial way in which the knowledge of any student is tested, whether he attends classes or not. There are many people who need the services of these colleges and that is why I have become interested in these colleges. The result is that they continually keep me informed of what they are doing and what they want to do.

I was present when the first private Bill was drafted. I advised them rather to leave the matter in the hands of the Minister. I assured them that they would only attain success if the inferior institutions outside the society were forced to join it. Now there is a clause in this Bill which provides that if a college is not a member of the society and does not in consequence fall under this Council it may not advertise its courses. That is a very strong weapon, therefore, to bring about that which I want to see, namely, that all the colleges should fall under the supervision of the Council. When they heard that the Minister would like to be represented in the Council they welcomed it. Not only did they welcome it but they even insisted that there should be liaison between them and the Minister. On one occasion I addressed one of their conferences and I told them that I regarded the correspondence colleges as universities which offered a second chance. It is not only the person who neglected his education or the child who did not make the grade at school who now finds that he is inadequately equipped for life who goes to those colleges. Very often they are highly qualified people who start a career and find at some time or other that they will make better progress in another direction. But they are bound by circumstances. They cannot attend a university or a technical college because they are working; they have to earn the bread because they may already have families and obligations. Those people then turn to the correspondence colleges; they want to embark on a totally different career and they equip themselves to do that in a very deserving way. You have people, for example, who go and work in the mines. They take a course and eventually follow an entirely different direction. There are people who have worked on the railways. You often find a person who has gone through life for years with only a Std. VI certificate. He wants to take a university course but before he can do so he must obtain his matriculation certificate. In all those cases they turn to the colleges. These people are, therefore, given a second chance in life to equip themselves for their career.

What I am concerned about is the fact that in the past every person who could not attend classes but who was anxious to improve his position and extend his knowledge—my hon. friend opposite has enlarged very ably on all the benefits, the improvement in the aesthetical concepts and values and the other values they acquire through the medium of these colleges—was regarded as a neglected and inferior person. That is no longer the case to-day and I am pleased about that. He must be able to say with pride: “I received my training from that correspondence college because that was the only way open to me.” However, the main point is this, and I think I must have said this at least ten times across the floor of this House, that we desperately need every living person in this country. I have said to the colleges that I personally would gladly assist so that they could make provision for all cases, for every person, irrespective of the direction he wanted to follow, because we needed the manpower. I am not only talking about manpower; there are also many women. I know of a woman, Gezina Botha, who obtained her M.A. degree in her kitchen surrounded by her children. Similarly there are not hundreds but thousands who have become useful citizens of the State. I do not want to go any deeper into the subject; it is not necessary for me to do so. The Minister has stated the case in a very efficient manner. The hon. member for Hillbrow (Dr. Steenkamp) has stated very clearly and very ably practically everything I can think of. I want to express my appreciation to the other side of the House for the support they have given this measure. I hope this Bill will soon be placed on the Statute Book and once again I want to thank the Minister, not only in my personal capacity, but I have been instructed by the managements of those colleges to convey to the Minister their sincere appreciation for what he is doing. I just want to give this assurance to the unenlightened public and some hon. members here, who have not thought about the matter, that the code of conduct with all the accompanying guarantees, even the financial guarantee and everything else contained in this Bill, constitute an assurance that this is a very sound measure which will be of value to the nation; it is a measure which I can, at any time, not only recommend, but support, without any reservation whatsoever.

Mr. Speaker, I followed with pleasure the remarks of the hon. member for Witbank (Mr. Mostert), and I wholeheartedly agree with him, but there are a few comments which I think can be made about correspondence colleges in general and the advantages and disadvantages of this form of education.

When we consider post-secondary education, we think in terms of universities and technical colleges, but the efforts of the universities and the technical colleges are concerned only with the provision of further opportunities for higher education for the same sort of ability group as is already having it. They recognize that many of those within this fortunate group are not the dedicated scholars for whom our courses were designed. They are not concerned at all with the next ability group, as measured by examination courses, who are destined, when they can get it for further rather than higher education. This is not the same in other countries of the world. Of the fortunate age group Britain aims at 17 per cent of the population in 1980, while the U.S.A. admitted to this fortunate group 40.3 per cent in 1963. What percentage of the same age group, i.e. the newly matriculated group, in this country seek higher education I do not know, but there are many matriculants who cannot afford full-time education, and this is not disputed. In this country full-time tertiary education is expanding at a very slow rate and we must more rapidly provide adequate opportunities for part-time further education for all those who want either to qualify themselves for what are called the sub-professional jobs or to expand the range of their personal and cultural experience. These are things which hundreds of people will want to do not only now but in the coming years as unskilled labour becomes less and less employable and shorter working hours provide unexpected leisure. This can be achieved by far cheaper and perhaps socially preferable means than the accepted pattern of three or four years full-time at a university or college. Here we have an alternative technique which has hitherto been neglected, in the correspondence colleges. Correspondence courses are concerned with two ability groups which have not received the attention they deserve. Firstly, they are concerned with those who cannot afford full-time education, and, secondly, with those who in their later years wish to improve their culture in preparation for retirement.

In other countries this sort of education is far more widespread. In Russia correspondence education is a recognized part of the higher education system. Of the 2,500,000 in higher education in the Soviet Union in 1960-1, 1,250,000 were correspondence students, being taught by the same teachers as the resident students, and with a statutory right to paid leave in order to attend short residential courses and to prepare for their final examinations. In the U.S.A. there are about 1,000,000 enrolled in courses organized by the armed forces, and nearly another 1,0, 000 in 56 correspondence schools, while over a further 100,000 take courses organized by universities and colleges. It is not that we do not use correspondence colleges, but correspondence education here, as opposed to Russia and America, is still regarded as being rather outside the pale of the normal educational system. Consequently we know very little about the courses being taken, as they often are, to supplement residential studies at colleges, of technology, or further education. This is a great pity because great though the advantage of correspondence as a method may be, it is enormously enhanced if it can be meshed in with other forms of education.

The great social advantages—I stress the word “social”—of correspondence education are that the learner can follow the course in his own time at his own pace and in his own house. This does not merely solve the difficulty of providing capital for building and the cost of travel and halls of residence. Many would-be part-time students can reach the technical college or university easily enough but are not free at the time when the classes they want to follow take place. Correspondence is therefore often the easiest way to achieve the widespread combination of part-time education with productive work, which seems socially more desirable than a slow expansion of full-time education for an elite —with the corollary of perpetuating an educationally deprived class, such as we have now. We have many people belonging to the educationally deprived class. Educationally, the great advantage of correspondence education is that it can be kept up to date more easily than either text books or teachers. This is rather an astonishing discovery. This is a factor, of course, of size and costs money, but the potential is clear. A correspondence course specializing in some area of engineering, law or accountancy in which practice is continually changing can re-write part of its course every year and adequately free the leaders in the profession to supervise the re-writing. The costs can be spread over the large number of students enrolled. No textbook can be treated in this way and only a small minority of teachers can be kept abreast of such up-to-date refresher courses.

One American engineering course spends £50,000 a year on keeping itself up to date. It is one of the weaknesses of correspondence colleges in this country that they are not financially strong enough to take full advantage of this asset. Operating in a country where there is no longer tradition of paying for education, and yet not a part of the publicly provided system, they tend to pay their tutors and charge their students at rates so cheap that the whole industry is seriously under-capitalized. This lack of money also prevents many colleges from taking advantage of the developments in programmed learning to re-plan their courses and of those in data-processing to control their reactions to student submissions. That is one of the most serious deficiencies in a correspondence course given by a college which is short of money. Nobody can tell better than the correspondence college what the feelings of the students are and yet on account of their poverty they cannot use that knowledge to the best advantage. With modern equipment a correspondence college can not only plan a course in some new branch of science or technology in the light of the most up-to-date theory and at an appropriate level of sophistication, but it can identify more quickly than any other teaching medium which elements in the course are causing difficulty to the average student. These advantages of the correspondence college are by no means negligible.

Most of the disadvantages of correspondence education can be summed up in the phrase “the loneliness of the long-distance student”. Correspondence students suffer from a sense of isolation not only from their tutors but also from each other. Moreover, their mental activity can easily become too stereotyped in a world of symbols, verbal or mathematical, and a pattern of pre-determined responses. The colleges should try to ensure therefore that a student’s work is criticized always by the same tutor and that some sort of personal relationship is built up by post between tutor and student. Clearly the Russian system of having the same tutors for students actually attending the university or institute and those studying by correspondence, and of bringing the correspondence students in for short residential courses where they actually meet their tutors is a great improvement on this merely postal contact. Something of the kind has been tried in a small way in this country with short courses for students studying externally for degrees at the University of South Africa. The university supplies practical classes in such subjects as chemistry which cannot be given other than by personal attendance. Another possibility is the use of local educational buildings, schools or libraries, as centres where correspondence students may meet and exchange their experiences and where they can be visited periodically by tutors from the correspondence school. Finally, there is the possibility, which has been tried overseas, of linking correspondence education with radio or television. But if one of the great virtues of correspondence—the possibility for each student to proceed at his own pace—is to be preserved, however, there are serious difficulties in fitting the radio and television material to the correspondence course, and it seems probable that the best roll for the University of the Air is as an enrichment of the University of the Post.

Correspondence is clearly a method which is particularly well suited to “on the job” training, as was also mentioned by the hon. member for Witbank. The learner need not leave the place of his employment in order to attend fulltime at an institution, while at the same time his work experience provides him with a practical side of his education the lack of which is a serious flaw in more purely academic correspondence courses. Thus the electrical engineer taking a correspondence course either to further or to freshen his knowledge of his own field has no need of special arrangements for practical equipment all day. The same is true of the young solicitor’s clerk working in a law office and preparing for his qualifying examinations by correspondence. It may well be, therefore, that the industrial training schools would do well to look into the possibility of combining correspondence courses with an occasional day release, and supporting this combination with radio or television programmes. There is one danger, however, in the cheapness and attractiveness of correspondence courses if they are used as the main medium for initial professional education. To work as an articled clerk while taking a correspondence course for professional examinations is good training but it is a very narrow form of education compared with full-time or even extra-mural attendance at a university or college of further education. It suffers from most of the disadvantages of the old night-school approach to professional training, and those who deplore what they consider to be the excessive influence of accountants on the boards of industry may also be concerned that accountants alone of similar ranking professions normally receive their post-school education in this way. Where correspondence is used as the normal method for initial professional training there seems an exceptionally strong case therefore for combining it with all the safeguards against loneliness which have been mentioned here. If. as seems not improbable, there is an occupational risk of developing a narrow, inflexible, and arithmetical outlook in the profession of accountancy, it seems particularly unfortunate that this profession should rely so exclusively on what is, if left to itself, the least humanizing and broadening of techniques for its initial professional education.

It is probable then that correspondence could play a much larger part in the rapid expansion of educational facilities that we undoubtedly need. If it is to do so, it must somehow be brought within the normal educational system. The correspondence field is the only one which is still almost wholly commercial and in which there is no generally accepted control of standards. Undoubtedly many schools do maintain high standards but any one could formerly set up a correspondence school, issue a prospectus and fleece the customers as much as he liked. If so inclined he could presumably call his school the Oxford and Cambridge correspondence department and some poor victim would imagine they were getting diplomas from both universities. One European remedy for this situation (as we have in this Bill) has been for the Ministry of Education to assert control by registration over correspondence colleges just as it does in this country over most other forms of school. The American pattern has been for the colleges themselves to set up their own accrediting agency with really tough standards and an absolutely unimpeachable independent validating authority. Correspondence education is obviously more open to fraud than any other type because its clients are scattered and far away. To earn respectability therefore correspondence colleges must be, as one expert in the field recently put it, “holier than thou and then some!” It is a pity that some thought has not been given to the method of improving and maintaining the standards without destroying autonomy. There are signs, however, that the industry itself is taking steps in this direction, as the hon. the Deputy Minister has said.

Correspondence is going to be widely used as an educational method in this country and it seems inevitable that it will be largely paid for either directly or indirectly out of public funds. The logical implication of this is that the control of minimum standards and the prevention of actual abuses should become as much a function of the Department of Education, Arts and Science as it is for all other forms of education. American experience shows that any such system of inspection and registration would need to be carried out in co-operation with the colleges. This in itself might be a step in bringing the colleges into closer contact with the national system and making more possible a planned use of a medium which at present operates in the twilight zone of the educational world.

One usually not appreciated advantage of the correspondence school is the instruction given (often unintentionally) in the passing of examinations; the frequent written reply to written questions and the corrected answer with acid comments force the student to give minute and accurate attention to the questions and to bring the answer within their boundaries and yet completely filling those boundaries, and at no point transgressing them. No superfluous words, no irrelevant words, no unasked for reply.

As one who has both used a correspondence course and served on the staff of one I can vouch for the fact that in certain aspects correspondence fulfils a most useful role in education and in some respects has unexpected advantages over the usual method.

Sir, one item in this Bill which I find difficult to understand is the large indemnity sum which is demanded from the colleges. What is the need for this large sum of money? Does the Minister expect that the colleges will be sued for large sums and why does he provide for this? I shall be glad if he will tell us when he replies to this debate.

The usual honours course at a university requires a dedicated and brilliant student, and the correspondence college for its success requires one who is able, interested, conscientious and, above all, able to concentrate and to discipline himself. If he is also brilliant so much the better. Sir, the world has known great men whose greatness has been developed by training through correspondence.

The speeches that have been made up to now in this Second Reading Debate are so flattering to the Bill that it will provide the Minister with a severe test of his modesty. Whereas I agree that this is a desirable Bill and a very necessary piece of legislation, I hope in the course of the next few moments to point to a few clauses where an improvement could have been or still can be effected. First of all, I think the main feature and the most satisfactory feature of the Bill is the fact that it now provides for a form of control where, as the hon. the Deputy Minister has correctly pointed out, control has been necessary for some years and where it has been accepted by those concerned with the operation of these colleges that control was and still is necessary. But I think here we get nearer to the ideal form of control because in a sense the Bill imposes a kind of voluntary control, self-control, which to me, at any rate, is a refreshing change from the control usually imposed by Bills which come before this House and by the Acts already on the Statute Book, where the control is not voluntary—where it is imposed by the Government, or where the Minister is responsible for making sure that that control is exercised by his Department. I think that the very fact that we have this different approach now is in itself something for which the hon. the Deputy Minister may well take some credit, and from which he may well draw some satisfaction. Another aspect of this Bill is that it draws attention to the existence, in a legal way, of correspondence colleges; and although the Deputy Minister has told us that these colleges are well-established in South Africa, that there are some very good colleges—the hon. member for Hillbrow (Dr. Steenkamp) has referred by name to some—the fact is that a great deal remains to be done in order to use this means of education to its fullest extent in South Africa. I think the hon. the Deputy Minister and his officials will be the first to concede that. To the extent that the Bill may now encourage the expansion of the whole system of correspondence colleges, to that extent this will be a most valuable piece of legislation. We have some 30 correspondence colleges in this country, as has already been pointed out by the hon. member for Hillbrow. The hon. member for Durban (Central) (Dr. Radford) has referred to the use of these correspondence colleges in America by the armed forces, for example. It is a known fact that they are very widespread on the Continent of Europe—in several countries there, particularly—and it appears that in America alone there are some 500 of these correspondence colleges in toto, with 6,000,000 to 7,000,000 pupils. Apart from any other service, they augment the service provided by American universities, and it is interesting to note that in that country there are not less than 150 universities which have extension services. As far as I know in South Africa we only have the one university, the University of South Africa, which offers that facility to people who want to advance their education. In the United States there are 150 universities alone in addition to the 500 correspondence colleges that provide the public with this kind of service. Sir, I do not know whether the position has been examined by the Department of Education, Arts and Science; whether a survey has been taken to get any sort of breakdown of the use of correspondence colleges in South Africa—for example, the age group, the status of the students and so on. If not, I am sure that these facts will prove very useful in the administration of this particular Bill when it becomes an Act.

In other countries, however, Governments have already taken the trouble to examine the position in order to establish whether or not correspondence colleges have the value which was attached to them by many members of the public, and to establish what that value is and how it can be augmented. So, for example, in the Federal Republic of Germany a trade union, the German Trade Union Association, took it upon itself to conduct a survey which showed that 45 per cent of the total population in West Germany lived in communities which lacked a centre of some kind for adult education, and the Office Workers’ Union recorded that 61 per cent of its members live more than 20 miles from such a centre in the larger cities, and therefore have no opportunity even to attend evening classes. In other words, the correspondence college was about the only channel for education which was open to such a very large proportion of the population in a very densely populated country like Germany where, for example, there are 130 correspondence colleges, as compared with our 30, and which have 1,300,000 students or pupils enrolled there. The position in Scandinavia, for example, according to their authorities, is very satisfactory, too. In Sweden they have some 500,000 pupils who annually take part in what we call extension or correspondence college courses. Sir, the motives are also interesting to examine, and I wonder whether the same motives apply in South Africa as do in other countries where surveys have been taken. The German Institute for Pedagogical Research in Frankfurt has recently established that half of the pupils who take these correspondence courses, who take tuition through the post, do so for the purpose of getting a better job; the other half want to make their present employment more secure. If that is the position in South Africa, then clearly what we should do is to encourage to the greatest possible extent the use of these correspondence colleges, especially since they will be controlled, and since correspondence colleges will have to abide by certain minimum standards to improve the standard of education of the public generally, and in order to arrive at a position where in a later generation we no longer have to be as concerned as is, for example, the educational authority in West Germany, over the fact that only 60 per cent of those who feel obliged to go to a correspondence college to complete their education have completed elementary school, and only 27 per cent of those have had ten years at school. Sir, it is also very interesting to note that as is the case in this country, where a large proportion of the students are adults and in many cases married, in the case of West Germany the average age of the participants in any educational scheme set up by a correspondence college or an extension university is 27 years, and that nearly half of those who take part are married—again an indication that, by and large, the main issue for the individual is to what extent can he advance not only his own personal narrow interests but very often that of his wife, his family and the people with whom he is concerned? That part of it, as far as I am concerned—the survey—would have been a very interesting instrument or yardstick with which to measure the progress of the educational system that we call “correspondence colleges” in South Africa. I want to put this thought into the hon. the Minister’s mind—that perhaps at some future time the council established under the Bill before the House will be encouraged to undertake a similar survey to show exactly where the pupil population of the correspondence colleges comes from, and where it is going to—or where it intends to go, if I may put it that way.

Finally, on this aspect of the matter, in West Germany, which by common consent in Europe has a very fine extension university or correspondence college system of education, the State takes such a great interest in the system of education—unlike the position that will certainly arise in terms of the Bill before us—that the final examination takes place in the presence of a public examiner appointed by the State education authority, and the final marks are registered with the State, which, of course, is to some extent complied with here in the case of an examination where the course is one which has been set by the Department of Education, Arts and Science.

Sir. I want to deal with some of the clauses in the Bill in very general terms, and to ask the hon. the Minister in the first place whether he believes that the definition of a correspondence college in Clause (1) is going to be adequate for all cases that will arise as soon as the Bill becomes law. I propose to give an example of the question, as I wish to put it to him in a later clause. Dealing seriatim with the clauses, there is the provision in Clause 4 that in so far as the election of the council is concerned, the people who will elect the council are the registered correspondence colleges, and there is the interesting provision that each such correspondence college will be entitled to one vote—that is simple enough—plus an additional vote in respect of each completed R20,000 of its revenue derived from correspondence tuition fees in the financial year immediately preceding the date of voting. That is a summary of the provision. This is, of course, a very unusual method of voting, as the hon. the Deputy Minister will agree. It is a kind of multiple voting which is geared to the turnover of the correspondence college which, while it is an educational institution, is also a business undertaking. In fact, the hon. member for Durban (Central) referred to the whole business of correspondence colleges as an “industry”. That is very true, Sir, and I would say that if, for example, in the Transvaal Chamber of Industries the voting of members were to be based on this provision or on a similar provision, you would naturally find that whereas each member has a basic vote, one single vote, the biggest members with the biggest turnover will control this organization, regardless of either the merit of the undertaking in relation to the national interest, or to the chamber concerned, or the merit of the representative of that particular undertaking. This being a rather unusual provision in regard to voting—I hope that the Deputy Minister will deal with it later on; I realize that this may well have come from the Association of Correspondence Colleges of South Africa—I wonder whether the Minister and the Deputy Minister realize that this, in itself, is an incentive to push one’s tunrover as high as possible in order to get the maximum number of votes in the council of this college, which is the supervisory body, and whether (I merely pose the question) it will in fact be a healthy system of voting. You can imagine, Sir, what would happen if we were to put forward such a proposal in regard to the ordinary voting rights of the electorate in South Africa. We would immediately be told, “You want the money power to control the country”, because clearly I would have about half the vote of some hon. members on that side, if measured merely in terms of money.

Harry Oppenheimer would put all the Progressives into Parliament.

I put it to the hon. the Deputy Minister that this clause may require another look, if nothing else.

Then in Clause 5, which I think is a very useful clause, the fact that the council itself shall elect its chairman, is to me a very refreshing departure from normal governmental procedure. We see Bill after Bill—there are another three on the Order Paper already— where some board or council is to be set up, and where almost automatically one finds a clause that says that the Minister shall appoint the chairman and the deputy-chairman. I say therefore that this is a refreshing change from what appears to be standard practice, as far as the Government is concerned, in that it says categorically in this Bill that the members of the council shall elect their chairman. May I say that I, of course, support that unreservedly, and I only hope that this same example which the Government sets itself in this Bill will be followed in the other Bills on the Order Paper this Session—although I doubt it.

Sir, in Clause 7 (2) I find the rather unusual provision that the Council shall refund to the State any travelling and subsistence allowances paid by the State to a person in the full-time employment of the State in respect of any period during which such person was engaged on the business of the Council as a member thereof. I do not know why it should be necessary for the State, which one understands is in a fairly affluent position, to undertake to recover from this Council, which may not be in an affluent position, the cost of the participation of the representative of the State in the functioning of the council. Where you have a case where no government financial support is sought, or even mentioned in the entire Bill, then surely—I say this with respect to the hon. the Deputy Minister—the least the State can do when it appoints its representative and advises him that a meeting of the Council will be held, and that instead of taking place, say, on his doorstep in Pretoria, during the summer months it will be held in Cape Town—where the air is more salubrious, if not so politically—the least the State can do is to pay the man’s expenses, just as it does in so many other boards and councils. [Interjection.] If the hon. the Minister of Agricultural Economics and Marketing would undertake to absolve the taxpayer from the cost of operation of all the boards under his control, I will withdraw my objection to this one, too.

Sir, under Clause 8 we have an old friend again, in 8 (2) (d), which provides that a member of the council shall vacate his office if he becomes of “unsound mind”.

I have often wondered whether there is a legal definition of the state of “unsound mind”, until such time as a person has been certified. I will not strain this point, Sir, but if I do not agree with the hon. the Deputy Minister or with that hon. member, for example, it is a very simple thing for me to allege that both or either of them happens to be of unsound mind. How do you prove or disprove that, short of a certificate? This will appeal to my hon. colleague from Durban (Central)—I mean, the issue of a certificate. He appears to approach this with great enthusiasm. The point I am trying to make is that this is perhaps also a case where the hon. the Deputy Minister, in the interests of education, arts and science, if nothing else, should try to achieve some greater clarity than we have had up to the present in regard to this kind of disqualification, where it appears that no one need allege it and no one need prove it.

In Clause 11 (2) I think it is reasonable to say that “every correspondence college which is in existence at the commencement of the Act shall be entitled to be registered as a correspondence college”. I am not suggesting that I know of a better way of dealing with it but, as the hon. the Deputy Minister will know, at the time the Act comes into operation there will be colleges which have a very dubious reputation, as they have at the present moment—colleges about which many complaints have been made, some possibly to his own Department, but certainly to the Association. Does that mean that, regardless of their background and history, regardless of the fact, for example, that at the time of the coming into operation of the Act, a particular correspondence college and its principal are appearing before a court on very serious charges, such colleges will automatically be registered? Can one perhaps change this clause in such a way that it will provide that where there is good ground for registration to be refused by the Council, it may do so? I realize there are certain legal and administrative difficulties, and beyond putting the point to the hon. the Deputy Minister, I do not wish to press it.

Clause 13 provides that “subject to the approval of the Minister the Council may from time to time prescribe the minimum qualifications of persons …” and many other things dealing with the operation of the council itself. I do not know what the intention of the hon. the Minister is at this stage, but I think he will have to try to find a happy mean between exercising this control very stringently or exercising it very reasonably—because although this is a form of self-control, as I have said, which the Council can exercise in terms of the powers that will be given to it, the final word on many issues remains, clearly, with the Minister. If he refuses his approval, certain things may not be done. I do not know whether it is the intention to be as lenient as possible for the first year or two or whether, as I have indicated in my comments on a preceding clause, it is intended immediately to ensure that this council starts on the right foot by eliminating any body or any college against which there have been many complaints of such a serious nature that they should not even form part of the body politic. That is where the withholding of the Minister’s approval may well become of very great significance.

In Clause 15, which deals with the inquiry that can be instituted in the case of improper or disgraceful conduct, I find no reference to the impropriety or any other misconduct inherent in advertising. As the hon. the Minister will know, one of the worst things about the correspondence colleges in South Africa, or some of them at any rate, is that because they are correspondence colleges and because they operate in an educational as well as in the industrial field, as has already been pointed out, they resort to methods of advertising which are not always* very accurate. I do not know whether improper or disgraceful conduct cover, for example, the advertisement which tells you that you can “Learn French while you sleep”, or that it will take you “One year to become a successful M.P.” That is the sort of advertisement one sees, Sir. It is nothing but purely commercial, high-pressure advertising, like you get over the radio.

[Interjections.] Yes, this could be sponsored by the hon. member for Cradock (Mr. G. F. H. Bekker): How to become a successful M.P. in one year! But I have no set views on that, Sir.

You could not do it.

I accept that; if I spent 30 years here, I would not expect to achieve the “success” the hon. member for Cradock has achieved.

I want the hon. the Deputy Minister to consider—since the penalties are very severe, e.g. the imposition of a fine up to R1,000, for improper or disgraceful conduct—whether the subject of advertising claims which cannot be well-founded, claims which merely mislead the public and which merely deprive the individual of his money, should not be mentioned specifically somewhere in the definition of what constitutes improper or disgraceful conduct.

In regard to Clause 19, I want to draw the attention of the hon. Deputy Minister to the definition of a correspondence college. Under Clause 19 “no person shall maintain, manage or conduct a correspondence course or provide by correspondence, tuition for reward within the Republic unless he is registered”. Then there are certain requirements for registration. We know it is a widespread practice in this country to teach the subject of music, e.g. the playing of the piano or the guitar, by correspondence. But these are one-man businesses; there are two in Pretoria whom I know very well. These people may be giving bona fide instruction and giving good value for money, but the “college” as such usually consists of one room with a piano in it, and one man writing the course and giving the lessons. Since so many sanctions are involved in becoming a member of this Council, and since there is to be a fidelity fund involving an amount of R 100,000, does the hon. the Deputy Minister think that the definition of a correspondence college is a reasonable one, and will he consider whether it would not create undue difficulty for such small one-man correspondence colleges?

By and large, the rest of the Bill is reasonably satisfactory, the hon. the Deputy Minister will be relieved to hear, and I merely want to make two additional points. Where, in terms of Clause 37, a registered correspondence college ceases to exist, it may be refunded a sum not exceeding the aggregate amount of the contributions it made to the fund less the amount of any claim, I think some part of that money should be retained to meet the operating costs of the Council. One pays ledger fees to have money kept in a bank, Sir, but it appears that the Council may for many years look after the funds of a particular correspondence college, yet at the finish that college will be entitled to all that money, without any deductions to cover operating charges or ledger fees. I think this is being unduly generous.

Whereas, in terms of Clause 41, a natural person who contravenes a provision of this Act is liable to a fine not exceeding R500 or imprisonment for a period not exceeding one year, in any other case, i.e. in the case of a company, only the fine comes into the picture. I would have thought that since the greater hardship is the imprisonment, which can be imposed on the person, this provision may well result in many one-man businesses becoming registered companies if only to make sure that, in the case of a contravention, the only sanction that can be applied will be the fine. I wonder whether the hon. the Deputy Minister sees it in that light and, if so, whether he will not make some change in order to make sure that the punishment shall fit the crime, rather than the natural person getting the greater punishment and the company getting the lesser punishment.

With those few words. Sir, I now await with interest the speech which the hon. member for Cradock has simply been dying to make on this subject. His impatience has been so manifest that I hasten to sit down without any further ado.

As somebody who has for years been connected with correspondence colleges directly and indirectly I wish to pay tribute to the excellent work done in the past by correspondence colleges. I have been concerned with these colleges directly in that I took courses and followed lectures and, indirectly, in that I have advised people about courses which they wanted to take at one or other of these correspondence colleges.

I am pleased that the Opposition is unanimous in their support of this legislation. I listened particularly attentively to the speech made by the hon. member for Hillbrow (Dr. Steenkamp). He was the first speaker on the Opposition. I just want to say to the hon. member that, as a former educationist, his speech in this connection impressed me much more than other speeches made by him in the past where he tried to mix education and politics.

At the moment correspondence colleges perform a particular duty, Sir, and have also in the past performed a particular duty and function. Correspondence colleges offer an opportunity to two groups of people. Firstly, to those persons who had opportunities at some time or other but who did not make the best use of those opportunities. In this regard I think of those students, for example, who went to high school but did not want to learn. Later in life, when they have developed a greater power of perseverance, when they have become more hard-working and conscientious, they decide to equip themselves better academically. Secondly, you have those persons who did not have the opportunity because circumstances were such that they were perhaps obliged to leave school. They then get the opportunity at a later stage to continue with their training and to qualify themselves better. Correspondence colleges are also really the poor man’s school, the poor man who cannot afford any other type of education.

In the past correspondence colleges have, in general, observed a high ethical code. They have bound themselves ethically to offer good courses to their students, for example, and to provide them with good lectures. It did happen sporadically, however, that all the colleges did not observe this high ethical code in respect of all the courses they offered and that the lectures supplied to students were not of the high standard they should have been. It is also because this legislation protects students of such colleges in those circumstances that I welcome it.

I also welcome this legislation because those colleges which have placed the service motive and not the profit motive as such first, will be better protected by this legislation. As I said a moment ago we all know that there have unfortunately been a few colleges—fortunately they are the exceptions—which have not always placed the service motive but more often the profit motive first. This Bill protects the students against being supplied with inferior lectures. The most important clause in this connection is Clause 13. I want to call this clause the Magna Charta of the student as far as this legislation is concerned. In terms of this Bill the council to be established may from time to time prescribe the minimum qualifications those people, who draw up and revise the courses and lectures offered by registered colleges, must have as well as the minimum qualifications those people responsible for correcting the students’ replies must have. As a former educationist I think this is a very important clause. I regard it as one of the main points in this legislation.

Apart from this the Council can also, from time to time, prescribe the minimum standard of service to be observed by registered correspondence colleges when offering tuition. I regard that as an equally important aspect. Competition on a sound basis is always a good thing. This legislation still protects that sound competition between the various colleges. On the other hand I am convinced that it will also protect existing correspondence colleges which have already done good work against the kind of competition which may come from mushroom colleges. It will also eliminate the one-man-colleges, to which the hon. member for Hospital has referred, colleges which cannot really supply the students with proper lectures and courses.

I want to conclude by congratulating the Minister and the Department on this piece of legislation which I think should have been introduced sooner.

I do not find it strange that there is general agreement in the House regarding this legislation. I do not say this because this legislation deals with correspondence colleges but because it deals with the education of our youth. This agreement is therefore a proof that when the Government comes forward with legislation of this nature, legislation which is in the interests of our youth, it will always receive the support of this side of the House. In his introductory speech the hon. the Minister said that the main purpose of this legislation was to protect the student. He also told us that it was some time before this legislation could be introduced.

If there is one thing which we in South Africa can do to-day it is to encourage our young people to study further. It is not necessary for me to impress this House in regard to the tremendous shortage of trained young men and women in this country. It is not necessary for me to impress this House in regard to the large numbers of our school-going young people who leave school after Std. VIII and do not have any further education. They often leave school because they cannot afford further education. They can therefore have the necessary further training through the medium of correspondence colleges. I do not believe for one moment that correspondence colleges are lacking as far as their standards are concerned. I think that anybody with a little experience of correspondence colleges will know that they set a particularly high standard. I myself decided years ago to take a post S.E.D. course. I enrolled with a well-known correspondence college in the country for a B.Educ. degree. When I saw what the University of South Africa had prescribed in their prospectus for the B.A. degree I decided to terminate my studies in that direction immediately because the course of this particular correspondence college with which I had enrolled was far wider and covered a larger field than that prescribed by the University of South Africa. I am convinced therefore that if one makes inquiries from the better known correspondence colleges one will find that the courses which they offer are excellent and of a particularly high standard. This legislation can therefore be welcomed because it seems as though further attempts will now be made to improve the standard of the courses. I think that the most important purpose of this legislation is to give better and greater opportunities to our young people, those who have not had these opportunities, to take their studies further.

In spite of the good which this legislation is seeking to do, I wonder if we are going far enough. For example, a parent to-day gets considerable concessions for income-tax purposes, when it comes to the post-school education of his child. He enjoys certain advantages when he has a child at university up to the age of 21 years. In some cases it is to a later stage. But what encouragement is given to a young man by this legislation, a young man who tries to improve his academic qualifications or otherwise of his own volition? Hon. members have said that these courses are often cheap. Of course, there are some of these courses which are cheap but many of them are also very expensive. For example, a person who decides to take a degree course is often at the start of his career. He may perhaps be a young teacher or an attorney or a person who does not earn a high salary. He intends improving his qualifications. He enrols with some or other correspondence college but there is no incentive in this Bill to enable him to make that decision while, if he is below 21 years of age and his parents have to pay for his education, they will be able to get a considerable concession for income-tax purposes. This is the type of encouragement we must have if we want our young boys and girls to become qualified for the future. It is so often said that there is a manpower shortage. There is, but our greatest need is for trained people, those who have the opportunity to make themselves better qualified. I wonder whether the hon. the Deputy Minister should not give consideration to this point of view and give further encouragement to those young boys and girls to make themselves further qualified.

I have said that I have no doubt in regard to the standard maintained by correspondence colleges. I think that they are doing excellent work. I should like to associate myself with what has been said by the hon. member for Durban (Central) (Dr. Radford) to the effect that training institutions, including schools, universities and colleges, are closed for large portions of the year. Is it not possible to enable these young boys and girls taking correspondence college courses to attend those institutions from time to time in order to give them a more active participation in further training? Nobody doubts the fact that a correspondence course is a good thing. We know that it is a good thing from the results which have already been achieved, a fact which can be borne out by thousands of people in our country to-day. But there is no better form of training that vacation courses. Is it not possible to make use of these institutions from time to time in order to bring these people closer to their teachers, in order to enable them to have a closer contact with the higher education which many other people are enjoying at universities or colleges to-day? This is the type of encouragement I think we can give. We want to be positive. We welcome this legislation but we believe that the State can still take the lead in many more respects in order to assist in our obtaining the best and most highly trained young people in South Africa. If this can be done we on this side of the House will always be prepared to support legislation of this nature.

There are certain of the clauses which we think can be improved. There is already an amendment by the hon. the Minister on the Order Paper. We shall express our views in regard to certain clauses at the Committee Stage. With these few words I say again that I personally welcome this legislation because I think it will lead to a raising of the standard of education in this country.

I am sorry I have not heard the whole of the interesting discussion on this Bill before us but I should like to add a word at this late stage of the debate. I am very glad that the hon. the Deputy Minister has been able to tell us that after all these years he has been able to introduce a Bill which will bring some order out of the chaos we have had in the past in conducting these correspondence colleges. I am glad that the Bill does not interfere with coaching or training but that it is confined to correspondence. I am especially glad of this because these correspondence colleges make special provision for the non-White side of our population and not only for the young White man who is struggling. I am informed by some of the biggest correspondence colleges in this country that about 50 per cent of their students are non-Whites. I think these colleges serve an excellent purpose in that respect.

Seeing that the African student in South Africa has to go to a university college it is obviously quite impossible for the young fellow in Johannesburg to go to the Northern Transvaal or Zululand or Fort Hare. He cannot do that. If he is not taking a university course there is no other course that he can follow at these institutions. I, therefore, think that these correspondence colleges play a very important and valuable part. It is the duty of the Department of Education to maintain control of these colleges and that is why I am so glad that the Department of Education is accepting a measure of responsibility on the Council. The Department will nominate two of the members. I think that is a very good thing.

One of the complaints against these correspondence colleges is that some of the advertising is not genuine advertising. Some of the students also complain that they do not receive fair treatment. I want to relate an account given to me by a student at a correspondence college. I shall not mention either the name of the student or that of the college. But his experience in trying to obtain a course at one of these colleges has not been pleasant. He was not eligible to take a course at the University of South Africa which is a correspondence college and he therefore had to apply to one of the well-known correspondence colleges.

This is his story: He sent a cheque for R22 in order to be able to follow the course, and he received in return, within a day or two, three test-papers. They were received very promptly. He wrote the first test and sent it back in the official printed envelope that the college had sent to him. He returned that in two weeks. He was really interested in the work. After three weeks he had heard nothing further from the college. So he sent them a reminder, and the college replied that they could not trace his papers! So they asked him to write it again. He informed them that he could not do so because under their instructions he had returned the question-paper with his answers. There was some more delay, waiting for the question-paper. He got it eventually; he rewrote the paper and sent it off, again in an official printed envelope to the college. After a few weeks he sent a reminder telling them that he had received nothing back after forwarding the test. They said that they had not received the paper. He felt quite desperate, felt like throwing up the sponge and cutting his loss. However, he believed in the Afrikaans motto “aanhou wen”, or as we say in English “there is no failure but in ceasing to try”. He wrote the paper for the third time. This was returned after four months, four months from the beginning of the course, four months before he got his first paper back. However, he thought “now we are really on the way”. So he sent tests II and III, but was told that they had not been received. He was then quite desperate. He broke out into verse and wrote a poem on the subject. However, he said: “I have paid for the course”, and so he re-wrote Test II. This was returned very promptly, but only half of it was corrected. The examiner explained in red ink that he could not mark the second half of the paper because had had not got a copy of the prescribed text-book! So the story went on and after six months he had received three papers back. Sir, that is an example forwarded to me by a friend of mine, an elderly gentleman who has had that experience. He was anxious to improve his knowledge of languages, as a matter of fact. He is quite a linguist. I think perhaps we could do something about this through the council. This man said: “What can I do? It is no good going to the courts and saying that you have not received fair treatment”. But a case like that could go to the Council, and I think that is the value of this Bill.

I want to deal with one clause only and the implications of a clause. Naturally, we will discuss the other clauses in Committee. But I am dealing with this clause because I should like to give an indication to the hon. Deputy Minister of what I intend to raise. It comes under Clause 4 (3) in regard to votes. You see, Sir, we do not say in this Bill that every correspondence college will have a vote. We say that they will have a number of votes according to the amount of business they do. That is a new principle. Every other association I know of says to its members: You will pay a subscription to the funds. But in this case we say that they will pay a subscription, but the number of votes they will have in electing the committee will depend on the size of the college. There may be something to be said for that, but if we come to Clause 11 (5) (a) we have this—

They will not have the same number of votes, but they will all pay the same fee for registration. When we come to a subscription to the fund, which comes later in Clause 27, they all pay the same amount to the fund. It has occurred to me that the hon. Deputy Minister should consider whether they should not all have one vote when it comes to electing their committee members. I think that would be reasonable. There is one other small detail in Clause 14 (5) (c) to which I wish to refer.

I have been approached by two people who are rather confused as to the meaning of this provision from line 59 onwards—

Now the public are confused. I have no doubt about what it means, but the public are confused. They think the Council may have the right to sentence a man. I think that will have to be made clear perhaps by improving the wording. Of course it is not the Council that will sentence a man. The Council reports the man to the public prosecutor; the public prosecutor will institute proceedings; and the man will be sentenced in the courts. I assume that that is the intention, but I think that should be made clear in the wording of this clause.

I think the support this measure has received from both sides of the House is evidence of how desirable and necessary it is. I appreciate the support and the interest evinced in the debate.

The hon. member for Hillbrow (Dr. Steenkamp) has stated that correspondence colleges have hitherto not come into their own in his country. I now wish to express the hope that this measure will contribute much towards their coming into their own and that they will receive the necessary status. This status which the correspondence colleges will get from the body now being established will, I think, also to a large extent remove the doubts expressed by the hon. member in regard to the colleges which are not members of this body. The hon. member said there were approximately 30 correspondence colleges in the country, of which several were not members, and that they would not be represented on this council. I am informed that the correct number of colleges existing in the country is 18, of which four are not members of this Association. But of course those colleges are at liberty to become members and I hope and trust that this measure will instil such confidence in this system and in the Council that the colleges which are at present not yet members will in fact become members. In terms of the Bill this Association will initially elect four members who will serve for two years, and after two years another election will take place. Therefore the colleges which are not yet members, but which we hope will become members, will have the opportunity in two years’ time to elect representatives and to have a say on the Council.

The hon. member for Durban (Central) (Dr. Radford) really objected to the large amount asked for for the fund. The reply I wish to give to that also applies to various other aspects, mainly that this measure was thoroughly considered by the Association of Correspondence Colleges. They were thoroughly consulted, and this big amount asked for here was provided with their full consent. They consider it necessary for proper control, and that being their view, I think we ought to accept it.

The hon. member for Hospital (Mr. Gorshel) voiced a few doubts. I am actually glad that the hon. member for Hospital raised so many doubts, because if he had also agreed with this measure I would really have begun to grow suspicious. The hon. member raised various points which can be fruitfully dealt with in the Committee Stage. I am not going to try to reply to all the aspects now, but I will reply to certain of them at this stage. The hon. member mentioned certain aspects in regard to which more information is required.

I trust that the establishment of the council, with the machinery available to it, will lead to more information in regard to correspondence education now being made available than formerly, and in this respect we can only express the hope that this will happen in the near future. The hon. member also had something to say about the colleges whose vote would be too big, as also the last speaker. Of course, the size of the colleges affects the matter. It is not regarded as extraordinary that big colleges will perhaps have a greater vote. The representation is, as hon. members can see, fixed at a maximum of ten. In South Africa we also have areas which have greater representation than others. The Transvaal has greater representation in this Parliament than Natal, but that is not regarded as extraordinary. But I am prepared to discuss this matter further in the Committee Stage.

There was reference to Clause 11, which provides that the Registrar must keep a register containing the name, the site of the head office, etc. The hon. member wants to know whether all correspondence colleges will now be registered, and whether those which have perhaps done something wrong may not be eliminated. The position is that in terms of this Bill all the existing colleges will be registered, whether there is some doubt about them or not, but it is clear that this Council will at the first possible opportunity devote attention to that type of college and then disciplinary action may be taken. We can therefore only hope that for their own sake they will adopt the right course without delay. In regard to Clause 15 there was reference to the unethical advertising techniques applied by certain colleges and the question was asked whether this should not be defined in this Bill. I do not think that is necessary. If a college is guilty of unethical advertising, the matter can be dealt with in terms of Clause 15, which provides that improper or scandalous behaviour will be considered, and the Council itself can decide whether it regards it as such. I do not think it is our task as legislators to prescribe in the Bill every contravention which may take place.

The hon. member for Port Elizabeth (West) (Mr. Streicher) asked whether the students of the correspondence colleges cannot be given the opportunity to attend certain educational institutions, and he referred to institutions which are sometimes closed during the holidays. That seems to be a very impracticable suggestion. In the first place any student of a correspondence college is at liberty to become acquainted with his lecturer, the man who draws up his lectures, and to contact him. He can go to the head office when he visits Pretoria, Johannesburg or Cape Town, and he can contact those people. It is the task of the correspondence college itself to offer these facilities. The hon. member for Kensington (Mr. Moore) gave us a very good example of the underhand practices experienced in the past, and we can only trust that this measure will also contribute towards eliminating that sort of thing.

I trust that this measure will contribute towards placing correspondence colleges in our country on a much higher level of respectability and that it will be to the benefit of thousands of students in our country.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

I move—

The schemes introduced in terms of the Marketing Act provide for the imposition of levies, for purposes of administration and stabilization, in respect of the products to which these schemes are applicable. Some of these schemes, like those for eggs and potatoes, provide that the levies will, inter alia, be payable by persons who deal in these products in the course of trade. The expression “dealing in the course of trade” is defined in Section 1 of the Marketing Amendment Act, 1946. In so far as it relates to the imposition of levies, the definition reads as follows, and I quote from the Act—

Where levies are collected from persons who deal with products in the course of trade, this definition also applies to schemes announced in terms of the Marketing Act. My Department and the Control Board, which have an interest in it, have always accepted that hotels, boarding houses, hospitals, restaurants and other organizations which purchase products for consumption on their own premises, for example as part of a meal provided to a lodger or patient, or as food for their employees, may also be regarded, for purposes of the collection of the levy, as persons who deal with the product concerned in the course of trade. The Egg Board has in fact also succeeded in litigation in magistrate’s courts in regard to the liability of such bodies to pay the levy.

In a decision given in the Supreme Court in a comparable case, however, it was decided that a certain hospital could not be regarded as dealing with a product in the course of trade if it supplied that product to paying patients as part of their meals. According to this decision and the legal opinion which was also taken in regard to this matter, the bodies referred to above must therefore be regarded as consumers of their product. If it is accepted that hotels, boarding houses, hospitals and restaurants cannot be regarded as persons dealing with a product, in the course of trade, it will result in manifold problems for the control boards in the administration of their schemes. The Egg Board, for example, collects the major portion of its levies from persons in the controlled areas who deal with eggs in the course of trade, and levies are only payable by producers in those cases where eggs are sold by the producers to persons who do not deal in eggs during the course of trade. If the Egg Board is therefore stopped from collecting levies from the relevant bodies, that portion of the levy will also have to be collected from the producers. Effective control of evasion in paying levies already constitutes a serious problem for the Egg Board, and if the board is now required in this type of case to collect the levies from the producers it will be an almost impossible task due to the large number of producers concerned, to mention only one reason.

It is therefore being proposed that the definition of “dealing in the course of trade” in Section 1 of the Marketing Amendment Act be amended in such a way that the aforementioned bodies will be included without any doubt. In Clause 1 (1) of the Bill a new paragraph is therefore being inserted which will result in the expression “dealing in the course of trade” also including—

The proposed amendment contains no new principle. It is merely intended to remove any doubt in regard to the interpretation which has hitherto always been given by the Control Board and the Department to this provision. In view of the fact that the existing definition of the expression “during the course of trade”, on which the views of the control boards and the Department were based, came into operation on 5 July 1946, it is necessary for this proposed amendment to be of force as from that date. Provision is made for this in sub-sec. (2) of Clause 1 of the Bill.

We are grateful to the hon. the Minister for the way in which he has explained this small amendment to the Marketing Act. We fully realize the difficulty experienced by the Egg Control Board. It would have been impracticable if they had expected the producer selling the product to the various bodies to have obtained the levy for them. The amendment which is now being effected means therefore that they can obtain the levy from the various bodies processing or changing that product. We on this side of the House are pleased that the hon. the Minister is rectifying the position and we trust that the Egg Control Board will experience no difficulty in the future in connection with the collection of this levy. The levy plays an important role in promoting the marketing of the product. We on this side of the House still regard our poultry industry and egg production as one of the last branches of our industry. That is why we support this amending Bill.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

I move—

This is a short Bill which deals with the establishment of a central arms register. In terms of existing legislation every magistrate has to keep a register of all licences and permits issued by him in terms of the Arms and Ammunitions Act of 1937. Under our existing legislation there is therefore no provision for a central register. Since the abovementioned register was established, all particulars entered into it have been recorded alphabetically according to the name of the holder of the licence or permit. If the name of the holder of the licence or permit, and the name of the place where it was issued, is unknown, it is therefore virtually impossible to determine ownership of a firearm on the basis of the existing registers kept by magistrates, in cases where it is necessary to determine such ownership Existing registers do not facilitate the task of the police in tracing the owner of a fire-arm found on the scene of a crime, or that is lost or stolen, and subsequently recovered by the police. In fact, the existing registers are of limited value. In view of these facts, the whole matter has been reviewed and it has become evident that the establishment of a central register for fire-arms which I have envisaged for several years, and of which the particulars would be arranged in such a way that the owner of a registered arm could be identified with the least delay, and which would be at the disposal of the police night and day, would be of the greatest value. In Clause 4 of the Bill provision has accordingly been made for the establishment of a central arms register, to be kept by the Central Criminal Bureau. The register will contain such particulars as may be considered necessary and desirable, and the particulars will be arranged in such a way that there will be the minimum delay. At the moment re-registration of arms does not seem to be imperative. The hon. members will appreciate that it would entail, firstly, a drastic re-organization and, secondly, would require a great deal of manpower to effect such a re-registration. In order to compile the new register, we shall have to resort initially to the particulars of arms that have already been registered, by extracting such particulars from the existing registers. But it must be clearly understood that if we cannot effectively compile a central register from those particulars, we shall have to resort to re-registration of all arms. We should not like to do so, but if it does become necessary, we will simply have to do so. On the other hand, I am still not sure whether, under the circumstances it would not be best, to have a re-registration. In any case, this is not at issue now; it will be considered at a later stage.

Sub-sections 6 and 7 of Section 2 of the Arms and Ammunitions Act provide that no one may import into the Republic or have in his possession any arm on which there is no manufacturers’ serial number or other numbers by means of which such an arm may be identified with certainty. This does not apply in respect of the barrel of a fire-arm, however, with the result that control over rifle barrels is impeded; and in many cases the barrel is much more important than any other part of the arm. The amendment proposed in Clause 1 seeks to make the provisions of the above-mentioned sub-sections 6 and 7 of application to the barrels of fire-arms as well. The barrels of pistols are not affected by the provision, as numbering would damage the barrels and is therefore impracticable in the case of such arms.

The establishment of a central register necessitates charging the authority keeping the register with the responsibility for issuing copies of licences if this should become necessary. This is provided for in Clause 2.

Persons who dispose of arms illegally often claim that the arms have been lost or stolen. When asked to produce their arms, others claim that these arms have been destroyed. Hon. members will appreciate that it is rather difficult to prove the contrary when these claims are made, with the result that guilty persons often evade punishment in these ways. In order to close these loopholes and to ensure that the central register will be a complete record, from which it may at any time be determined in whose possession any fire-arm is or should be, or what the position is with regard to any fire-arm, it is necessary to compel everybody who owns a fire-arm, in the event of its being lost, stolen or destroyed, to report the loss, theft or destruction of such fire-arm in order that particulars to that effect may be recorded in the register. This is provided for in Clause 3. In terms of Section 30(e) of the existing Act, anyone who fails to report the loss, theft or destruction of a fire-arm as required by this clause will be guilty of an offence.

It will be appreciated that in most cases it is impossible for the State to prove when a person possessing a fire-arm became aware of the loss or theft and in some cases even of the destruction of such fire-arm, because these are facts which, in the normal course of events, will only be within the knowledge of such person himself. The presumptions provided for in terms of Clause 5 are essential or the effective implementation of Clause 3, as read with Section 30(e) of the Act. In view of the fact that it is likewise virtually impossible for the State to prove that possession of a fire-arm has not been permanently transferred to any other person, and as such transfer has the effect, in terms of Section 5 of the Act, of rendering the transferor’s licence null and void, it will of course also be very difficult to prove that a person to whom a fire-arm licence was issued, particularly prior to the establishment of the central register, is still the holder of a valid licence. The holder of a licence who has permanently transferred the fire-arm to which the licence relates to someone else, however, can easily prove this. Under these circumstances it cannot be held to be unreasonable to provide that in the event of a prosecution as envisaged in Clause 5, the State merely has to establish, inter alia, that a person was the holder of a licence. If such a person proves that he has permanently transferred the fire-arm to someone else and cannot therefore be held to have been legally in possession of the fire-arm when it was lost, stolen or destroyed, a charge of contravention of the proposed Section 7bis against such a person would of course be null and void.

It is proposed that the fees payable in respect of copies of licences shall in future be collected by way of stamp duties on the application for a copy of a licence. Clause 6 will grant the State President the authority to issue the required regulations in this regard. In so far as they relate to the fees payable for a fire-arm licence in respect of which the applicant holds a licence issued in South West Africa, the provisions of paragraph (c) of Section 34 are repealed in order to rectify the omission which originated in the amendment of Section 2 (9) of the Act by Section 33 of the General Law Amendment Act, 1957. I might mention for the information of hon. members that fire-arm licences issued in South West Africa prior to the passing of the last-mentioned Act, were valid in the former Union (now the Republic) for only six months. The provisions which are now being repealed had the effect of limiting the licence fees payable for an arm in respect of which the applicant held a South West Africa licence, to 25 cent per licence. Fire-arm licences issued in South West Africa have since 1957 been valid in the Republic for the full period during which the holder thereof stayed in the Republic. The holders of such licences need therefore no longer re-licence their arms in the Republic.

In Clause 6, the fees payable for licences and for copies of licences are increased from R2 and 25 cent to R4 and 50 cent, respectively, in order to compensate for the depreciation which has taken place since 1937 in the monetary unit. It should be pointed out, however, that the clause only lays down the maximum fees which may be prescribed by regulation in respect of licences or copies of licences. There is no intention at present to increase the amounts of R2 and 25 cent payable in respect of licences and copies, respectively, within the foreseeable future.

Hon. members will note that there is as yet no provision in the Bill which makes it a culpable offence to lose fire-arms through negligence. Hon. members will recall that I have raised this matter very frequently in the past and appealed to people to be more careful with their fire-arms, and that I foreshadowed that if people did not exercise more care it would be necessary to introduce legislation to make such negligence punishable. I have given thorough consideration to this matter, but in view of the fact that we are now for the first time establishing a central register and making it compulsory to report the loss of fire-arms, I shall not in this Bill insist on such action. But it must be clearly understood—and I think hon. members will agree—that we can no longer have people treating fire-arms although they are newspapers that can be left lying when one no longer has any use for them. I sometimes get the impression that fire-arms are a greater source of danger to people, rather than a means of protection, and the way they are handled and stored, in particular, is a source of concern and misgivings. I trust that this central register which we are now establishing and particularly the clause relating to notice of loss, will serve to make people more careful. I avail myself of this opportunity to appeal to all people who have in fact lost fire-arms and who have not yet reported the loss to the police, to do so without delay. With a view to the register which is now to be established, all such information will be of great assistance. It will be appreciated that if a fire-arm is found on the scene of a crime, the sooner one can determine who the owner is, the easier it is to solve the crime, as this serves as a clue and as a starting point in the investigations.

I trust this Bill will be welcomed on both sides and will be supported wholeheartedly by both sides of the House.

The Bill is welcomed by this side of the House, and indeed the warnings the Minister has given in relation to the very careless handling of arms by people, treating pistols as if they are newspapers and leaving them around, are also heartily supported by us. There is a need which this Bill begins to provide for, for the tightening up of the careless handling of arms and ammunition. In regard to the losses of arms and the thefts of arms in South Africa, the figures disclosed by the Minister are quite frightening, if one realizes that in the last five years, not even including this year, 13,136 fire-arms were stolen from persons who were lawfully entitled to have them, persons who applied for those arms; and the giving of an arm is not a right but a privilege granted to responsible people of good character. You have to satisfy the magistrate that you are a fit and proper person to possess a fire-arm. One wonders whether the time has not arrived when, in the granting of that licence, consideration should not be given to a man’s record, as to whether he is in fact able to look after an arm properly. These figures amount to an average of over seven fire-arms stolen every day, quite apart from the number which have been lost.

Added to that, one has in South Africa today an alarming number of armed robberies. Hardly a day passes without seeing in the Press, in one part of the country or another, or all of them at the same time, brazen attacks made by criminals upon people by day as well as by night, criminals armed with firearms, not only to steal pay-rolls, but there is an even more alarming number of attacks on individuals in the streets and on householders. So often one sees reports in the Press about what these criminals wanted. They ask for money and for fire-arms. These two things bear a relation one to the other. The number of these armed robberies taking place and the number of thefts of fire-arms bear some proportion to one another. It may be that some smuggling takes place in arms, but I would say that the majority of the arms possessed by those not authorized to have them —and I refer particularly to the robberies committed by Bantu, who appear to be the major race-group responsible for these things —are stolen, or else they were obtained as the result of the careless handling by the owners of those fire-arms. The Minister will agree that this is a most alarming state of affairs. He has suggested that the time cannot be far off where he might have to provide for it to be an offence for someone to lose his weapon through negligence. It was not long ago, during the time of the emergency, when one of the emergency regulations provided for something which was even less than negligence. The regulations provided that any person who failed to take adequate steps for the safe custody of any fire-arm of ammunition would be guilty of an offence and the penalty was £500 or five years. Those were different times, but this seems to be a reasonable provision in the law, especially having regard to the number of robberies taking place with arms used by persons not authorized to possess them, i hope the Minister will give consideration to this, and especially to the relationship which must exist between these armed robberies and the loss of fire-arms. In my own mind I have no doubt that the courage and audacity given to these people who have perpetrated these outrageous crimes would not have been there but for the fact that they were armed with a fire-arm.

Finally, the Minister indicated that, as before, he would do what he could to help those people who fell foul of the law before the law became the law. In other words, there are a number of people who have lost their fire-arms before this Bill came before this House, some of them years ago, and who failed to report the loss to the police. It now becomes an offence not to do so within seven days. If one looks at Clause 5, it would seem that on a prosecution for having failed to report the loss within seven days, no matter when it was that the fire-arm was lost, one might be convicted. I want to ask the Minister whether he would consider providing a period of grace for those persons who failed in the past to report the loss of fire-arms so that they may now report without fear of prosecution. For the rest, we support this measure.

The hon. member for Durban (North) (Mr. M. L. Mitchell) has covered most of the points, but what I want to deal with is the central register of fire-arms. The Minister has told us that the records now kept by the magistrates would form the basis of this register. Now, those records are probably out of date and I think the Minister will find it necessary to have a complete registration of all fire-arms to make the register effective.

I would like to follow the line of the hon. member for Durban (North) and make a plea to the Minister to give consideration to the granting of a moratorium. A little while ago he granted a moratorium for people to surrender unlicensed fire-arms, and it was amazing to find how many fire-arms were surrendered. I want to suggest to the Minister that he once again proceed along those lines and declare a moratorium for a fixed period and to ask people to come forward and say whether they have lost arms or whether they have been stolen, so that the register can be brought up to date. It is possible that there are many fire-arms lying about which have no real home.

Then there is the question of arms kept in motor cars. From my personal experience in the motor trade it is surprising how many people carry fire-arms in their cars. Quite often they have to be removed for safe custody. In many cases the owners do not claim these arms and they are handed over to the police. Quite often, especially if a car comes from the Transvaal, if you open the cubbyhole you find an automatic in it. I can only endorse what the Minister has said. The public generally are very careless in regard to fire-arms and something should be done to tighten up the position and to prevent the loss or theft of these arms. I say again that the Minister should give consideration to a complete registration of arms to find out where they are, and he should consider granting a moratorium period during which unlicensed fire-arms can be handed in for registration.

We on this side of the House thank the hon. the Minister for this Bill, because we feel that a great deal of damage has been done with stolen arms, particularly during recent years. A major problem, for which I would like the hon. the Minister to suggest a solution, is the large number of stolen arms in illegal possession. How will the Minister know to whom these arms belong? There may be a thorough investigation, but as a rule these arms are stolen by non-Whites, and as soon as a raid is initiated, they hear of it and hide the arms. To some extent, re-registration of arms will help, but it will not solve the problem of the stolen arms, and these are the arms with which the damage is done. We are of course very negligent. Perhaps there is no member of the House who is blameless in this matter. People leave arms all over. As the hon. member for Salt River said, there is a loaded pistol in almost every cubby-hole, and this is dangerous. People have their cars lubricated, and the arms are stolen, and it is difficult to recover these arms. I have wondered whether it would not be advisable to legislate to the effect that arms should be kept locked up, and that it shall be an offence to leave a fire-arm lying about in a room. Some days ago there was a case of a murder which we all deplore. The person involved had two stolen pistols. We welcome the legislation, but I am not so sure whether stolen arms are sufficiently provided for. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can give us some advice in this connection.

To start with the last speaker, it is of course not an easy task to provide by legislation, or even by regulation, how a fire-arm is to be stored. One cannot stipulate by law that it is to be kept in a safe; one would be considered crazy. How would the owner open the safe if he needed the arm in a hurry? Everybody does not own a safe. If this had been practicable, one would have liked to do so, but it is not. The matter should therefore rather be approached from another angle; the owner should be told how not to store his fire-arm. The only way to do this, is to warn him that he would be culpable if the arm were lost as a result of its being stored negligently. It would then be up to the courts to decide, on the merits of each case appearing before them, whether or not a particular owner had been negligent. The hon. member also mentioned the tracing of stolen arms. We have, of course, a fire-arm unit which is charged solely with the recovery of stolen or illegal fire-arms. Hon. members will recall that I have from time to time, in reply to questions, furnished the figures relating to arms that had been recovered, and the number of these is considerable. The hon. member for Durban (North) (Mr. M. L. Mitchell) is quite correct in calling it alarming that so many fire-arms are stolen. The opposite aspect of the matter is of course the fact that we are fortunate enough to recover many of these, but the trouble is that one recovers them after the damage has been done, and it is of scant use getting them back when someone has already been injured or killed with one of those fire-arms.

The hon. member for Salt River (Mr. Timoney) raised the question of a new registration of fire-arms. It is not necessary to pass legislation; we have the legislation and if it is necessary to have a new registration, the State President can simply publish a proclamation that as from a certain date all fire-arms must be registered afresh. But for the reasons I gave I do not want to make use of it straight away. The Department thinks it is possible to compile a new register without new registrations, but if it is found to be impracticable we will naturally have to resort to that, but only as a last resort.

As far as the arguments of the hon. member for Durban (North) are concerned, I agree with every word the hon. member has said. It is very difficult, however, when a man applies for a licence to purchase a fire-arm, to say that he is a man who will look after that weapon. The law provides that he must be respectable and that the magistrate must be satisfied that he is the type of person who can have a fire-arm, but in spite of that he still loses it. I agree with the hon. member that we must very seriously consider whether the time is not ripe to make it an offence for people to lose their fire-arms through negligence.

I thank the hon. members for the support this Bill has received. We shall commence the compilation of this register as soon as possible, and I trust it will be of great value, and will eliminate many evils. One hon. member asked whether I would not grant another moratorium. I have not been Minister of Justice very long, but I think I have granted it three times. If it proves to be necessary, I shall do so again. This Bill still has to pass through its other stages and through the Other Place, and it will take some time before it can be put into operation. I am therefore at one with him in trusting that people will take note and bring to our attention any arms that have been stolen. If necessary, I shall bear in mind what the hon. member has suggested, and order a moratorium.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

I move—

This Bill provides that the remaining regulations, set out in the Schedule to the War Measures Continuation Act of 1956, shall continue in operation for a further period of three years, that is, up to and including 30 June 1968.

Since the War Measures Continuation Act was passed in 1962, the Import and Export Control Act was promulgated during the 1963 session, and the Price Control Act during 1964, with the effect that the provisions of some of the earlier regulations were translated into permanent legislation.

It is clear, however, that the remaining regulations will have to be extended and will have to continue in operation for a further period. In respect of some of these it has also become possible that the provisions may be incorporated in permanent legislation. One of these, the remaining portion of War Measure No. 146 of 1942, which is referred to in Item 4 of the Schedule to the 1956 Act. These measures authorize commodity control and the administration of the External Procurements Fund.

I should explain that regulations relating to commodity control serve mainly to vest in the Minister of Economic Affairs certain powers to demand that information regarding the production and distribution of commodities, as well as commodities in stock, be supplied to him. Provision is made for penalties in the event of failure to comply with such requests, and also for withholding information. In normal times it has seldom been necessary to invoke these measures, but in a few cases it has been necessary to apply these powers.

The measures regarding the External Procurements Fund provide for the establishment of this fund, the distribution of the revenue and expenditure in various accounts, the appointment of officers for the purpose of purchasing locally and abroad, and for powers vesting in the Minister of Economic Affairs, to effect purchases on behalf of Government Departments and other concerns. The Minister of Finance has to be consulted as regards the financial aspects of this matter. The fund was established during the last World War in order to facilitate purchases abroad. At present only jute and rubber is bought by way of the fund.

The Department concerned is already engaged in drafting the necessary legislation to incorporate the measures regarding commodity control, as well as those in respect of the External Procurements Fund, in permanent legislation. As there is a possibility that the final work will not be completed in time for this Session, the extension of these measures has also been included in this Bill.

Another remaining measure which has to be extended is War Measure No. 43 of 1942, which is referred to under Item 3 of the Schedule to the 1956 Act. This measure provides for the payment of a cost-of-living allowance to employees in commerce and industry. The reasons for this are as follows:

1. (a) Although the Wage Council has recommended consolidated wages in all its recommendations since July 1961, some of the former wage determinations, which provide for basic wages only, are still in force;
2. (b) there are several industrial agreements which do not yet provide for consolidation; and
3. (c) many employees, particularly in rural areas, are not yet subject to wage control measures.

In all these cases the legal obligation to pay cost-of-living allowances is still subject to the continuation of the relevant War Measure. If the measure were not extended, it might have the result that some employees would lose their allowances partly or altogether as there would then be no legal obligation on employees to pay these allowances. Applications for exemptions in order to effect consolidation of cost-of-living allowances with basic salaries have recently shown a marked increase. It is evidence from this increase that the idea of consolidated wages is becoming increasingly popular among employers, and that the time has come to consider the introduction of permanent legislation compelling employers to consolidate basic wages and the prescribed cost-of-living allowances. The Department of Labour requires some more time to investigate the possibility of permanent legislation and all its aspects and to consider its practicability, and therefore this temporary measure also cannot be recalled at this stage.

The only other regulations that have to be extended, are those mentioned under Items 1, 2 and 6 of the Schedule to the 1956 Act, which relate to the Custodian of Enemy Property.

As I explained to hon. members during my second-reading speech on the Continuation of War Measures Amendment Bill in May 1962, there were at that time various reasons why it was not possible to make final arrangements for the disposal of funds vested in the Custodian of Enemy Property. This was due largely to factors beyond the control of the Government.

Hon. members will also recall that I then announced, however, that the Government had decided to release to former owners all the remaining German assets still vested in the Custodian of Enemy Property, after provision had been made for settling all valid claims registered with the Custodian by South African citizens or persons or companies, in respect of loss or damage suffered as a result of the war.

This resolution was accordingly put into effect in the subsequent period: Firstly, the Government returned 80 per cent of the vested assets to persons and companies in the Federal Republic of Germany, and in September 1963 the remaining 20 per cent was also returned. The magnitude of this return of property, which was undertaken without any expansion of the staff of the Custodian, is evident from the fact that of the amount of R9,000,000 which was available for return at that date, approximately R7,900,000 had already been handed over to the former owners as at 31 December 1964. There thus remains a balance of slightly more than R1,000,000, which is still to be disposed of. In addition, the Custodian has disposed of all South African claims against Germany, with one exception. He is now endeavouring to return the remaining assets to the rightful owners. In this regard he is experiencing considerable difficulties, as it is hardly possible to contact several former owners who are presumably behind the Iron Curtain or who have settled somewhere in Eastern Germany and Poland and in respect of whom no practical method has to date been found to ensure that assets to which they are entitled will in fact reach them. Difficulties are also being experienced with numerous smaller accounts in respect of which former owners have died. In these cases a lengthy procedure has to be followed in order to ensure that the heirs, or in some cases the heirs of these heirs, each receive their rightful portion. Naturally, this type of negotiation takes a considerable time. I trust, however, that in most of these cases finality will be reached within the foreseeable future.

In view of the fact that the German account was by far the most important and that the disposal of this account has occupied so much time, little attention could to date be paid to the finalization of the approximately 20 other relatively small amounts held in respect of other former enemy countries. As soon as the Custodian has completed the German repayments as far as possible, these outstanding amounts will be considered. This will demand the extension of the Custodian’s powers for a further period of three years. Permanent legislation is not envisaged in this regard, as the functions of the Custodian are of such a nature that they are only temporary and must therefore come to an end as soon as the above-mentioned amounts have been disposed of.

I have intentionally given hon. members a full exposition of the three measures that are still in force and of the circumstances necessitating their continuation. Hon. members may have noticed from this exposition that these matters are enjoying serious consideration. As you may know, the 1965 Act provides that the State President may repeal any of the regulations by proclamation. I can assure hon. members that it will be recommended that the State President exercise these powers as soon as the necessity for any of the regulations which are now being extended, lapses. Finally, I may mention that it is hoped that no further extension will be necessary.

Apart from one set of regulations in respect of the continuation of the functions of the Custodian of Enemy Property, I am merely the agent for the introduction of this measure in the House of Assembly. The other Ministers will deal with it in more detail. I have tried to explain the particular circumstances in advance; the rest is their task.

We do not oppose this Bill. I think the hon. the Minister is perhaps a little optimistic in saying that the other Ministers concerned are prepared to deal in great details with the proposals falling under their Departments because as a matter of fact the Ministers concerned are not here. No, I notice that the hon. the Minister of Labour is here. We will deal with him in a few moments.

The Bill really refers, as the hon. the Minister has pointed out, to the few remaining war regulations under the War Measures Act. The hon. the Minister has pointed out that the Government intends sooner or later, with the exception of the measure covering the Custodian of Enemy Property, to bring in permanent legislation dealing with the three others. In other words, this Bill which purports to extend the regulations every year is in effect simply extending them until such time as the Government is able to introduce legislation dealing with each one specifically. That being so I do not think that any really useful purpose can be served at this stage by trying to discuss in detail the state of affairs under the regulations as they stand at present. The hon. the Minister has suggested, in the case of the external procurements fund, for instance, that it is even possible, although he did not think it was likely, that we might have legislation this Session. The External Procurements Fund, of course, is becoming rather a complicated thing, and if the Minister in charge of the Department happened to be here—I am sorry to say he is ill so he cannot be here—it might have been interesting to have had a full statement from him as to the ramifications of the External Procurements Fund and the problems which are facing him in the task which has been laid upon him and which have flowed from the conditions arising out of the War, because it is quite clear that the fund has a task now which not only cannot be abandoned at the present time, but he is liable to be faced with a number of very serious problems, and they may prove to be quite expensive problems for the hon. the Minister of Finance before they are disposed of. I think the hon. the Minister will know that, but I do not think any useful purpose will be served by pursuing this matter this afternoon and I do not propose to do so therefore. Sir, the other question of cost-of-living allowances will be dealt with by my colleague who sits behind me. I can only say that we do not intend to oppose the Bill.

The question of the cost-of-living allowance, relative to the extension of the War Measures Act for a further two years, raises two points on which I think the hon. the Minister of Labour should give the House some further information. The first is the suggestion which has been made by his colleague, the Minister of Finance, in respect of the possibility of legislation being introduced to bring about the compulsory consolidation of the existing cost-of-living allowances with basic pay. I think the point on which we should have further information on here is the extent to which the cost-of-living allowance is still being paid. The Minister of Finance indicated that it was mainly in country districts. I would like the Minister of Labour to indicate whether there are as yet any industrial council agreements which are still in force which have not provided for consolidation and whether there are any wage determinations still in force which have not provided for consolidation. I think the Minister may possibly have to pass legislation as a last resort to bring about consolidation, but I believe that if the Minister of Labour were to make it widely known that he intends introducing legislation if there is not a voluntary consolidation by the employers concerned, that might have the effect of bringing about the necessary adjustment without the need to introduce legislation. I think it is something worth trying in view of the fact that the Minister of Finance has indicated that there is not much likelihood of the legislation to which he referred being introduced this year. I think it is desirable from the employees’ point of view that employers should be warned that if they do not give effect to what is happening generally, then legislation will be introduced to put consolidation on a compulsory basis.

The other point is that now that we are considering the extension of the War Measure in respect of cost-of-living allowances, the Minister should also realize that this is not unwelcome in view of the agitation that has arisen in certain quarters for a re-introduction of cost-of-living allowances due to the fact that there has been talk of a pegging of wages. If there is to be a pegging of wages and the inflational aspects of our economy bring about an increase in the cost of living, then it is inevitable that consideration will have to be given to the re-introduction of cost-of-living allowances in the interests of employees. I would suggest, therefore, that the Minister of Labour should give the House some information in respect of the first point; I do not expect him to comment on the second but it is as well that we should take note of the fact that any talk of a pegging of wages and a continuation of an increase in the cost-of-living index figures, will inevitably bring about requests for the reintroduction of cost-of-living allowances.

I reply to the hon. member for Umhlatuzana (Mr. Eaton) I should like to give the House some information. This War Measure, No. 43, provides for the payment of cost-of-living allowances. Its period of operation will, of course, expire on 30 June of this year. During the past few years my Department has received many applications for exemption in order to permit the employees’ cost-of-living allowances to be consolidated with their basic wages. I find that the majority of industrial council agreements which are at present being submitted to me for approval prescribe consolidated wages—the majority of them. Since 1961 all the recommendations submitted by the Wage Board have also prescribed wages inclusive of the cost-of-living allowance. 1961 is the year, of course, in which cost-of-living allowances and basic wages were consolidated. The effect of the consolidation of cost-of-living allowances with basic wages is that overtime payments are now substantially more than they were in the past because the overtime rate has to be calculated on the inclusive wages. It has also been the practice of these industrial councils to prescribe their own cost-of-living allowances in their agreements. To such an increasing extent are cost-of-living allowances now being regarded as an integral part of the workers’ ordinary remuneration that the possibility exists that this measure will in due course serve no further purpose. However, there are still some determinations under the Wage Act in operation and these determinations prescribe only basic wages. [Interjection.] I will come to the industrial agreements as well. Under the Wage Act certain determinations only prescribe basic wages. It is anticipated that these determinations will be revised in the near future and will prescribe wages inclusive of the cost-of-living allowance. That is our aim. The Wage Board has received instructions to review these wage regulations. There are also some industrial council agreements in force which refer to the payment of cost-of-living allowances as prescribed by the War Measure. In the circumstances it is necessary that the validity of this Measure be preserved for a further period, but I can assure the House that we are going into this matter and we hope that during the period for which we are now seeking an extension we will be able to get the Wage Board to review those agreements where basic wages only are prescribed, and also to bring industrial council agreements up to date.

May I ask the hon. the Minister whether he is following the policy of not agreeing to industrial council agreements which are placed before him unless there has been a consolidation of cost-of-living allowances with basic pay?

I will not say that I am following a policy but I am indicating that as far as I am concerned I would prefer the agreements to contain the necessary provision; I am indicating that I would welcome it if these industrial council agreements were brought up to date to include this particular provision.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill read a second time.

I move—

As a result of the rapid development of the country, it becomes necessary from time to time in the field of water affairs, as in other sections of our economy, to pass new additional legislation or to amend existing provisions. In view of the vital role played in our economy by the utilization of water, it is necessary to effect essential amendments to the legislation with the utmost dispatch.

The present Bill provides for the elimination of a number of deficiencies in the existing legislation and, as far as control over water sports is concerned, for the establishment of control over a public activity which is assuming extensive proportions, to such an extent that many lives would be endangered if control were not instituted.

Section 60, the expropriation section in the existing Act, provides that the State has to consult with any pay compensation to the owner of land, as well as the holders of registered and by implication also the holders of unregistered rights, in respect of land if the State proposes to expropriate that land for the purposes of Government water works; that is, if the State wants free, unencumbered title to the land. In other words, the Act, as it stands, draws no clear distinction between holders of registered rights and holders of unregistered rights in respect of land. In practice this means that the State has to serve notice of expropriation, not only on the registered owner of the land and on the holders of registered rights, but also on all holders of unregistered rights. The practical difficulties implied in this system are obvious and may be set out as follows: Firstly, there is the problem of determining who are the holders of unregistered rights in any tract of land. Secondly, after the Department has been informed of a particular unregistered right in respect of land, that right has to be assessed. The difficulties involved in the assessment of such an unregistered right can be readily appreciated. There may be a written agreement between an owner and the holder of the right, an agreement which was not drafted by a lawyer and which may be obscure, or which may have been misplaced and cannot even be traced. It may also be a right which flows from correspondence between the owner of the land and other persons, which present further obstacles. The agreement may be an oral one. It is often impossible to prove or disprove that such an agreement was in fact arrived at. There is no need to emphasize the practical problems involved in the assessment of unregistered rights. Thirdly, as a result of this provision, as interpreted by a court, it is possible that the State may be deliberately exploited. The fact that oral and written agreements between an owner and the holder of a right to land are recognized by implication in the existing Act, facilitates the exploitation of the State by unscrupulous persons. Exploitation is much more difficult in the case of registered rights in respect of land, where such rights are registered in a Deeds Office or some other Government office, for in such cases it will be officially seen to that vague or incomplete agreements are not accepted for registration.

We are now amending Section 60 in such a way that it will provide specifically how the State will set about the expropriation of land. Provision is now being made for publication in the Government Gazette and in local newspapers of a general notice in which the land is fully described. Unregistered holders to rights will then come to know who the owner is from whom the State expropriates the land or registered rights, and it will then be incumbent upon such unregistered holders of rights to take steps to come to an agreement with the owner as regards their unregistered rights, if they are worth anything to them. This Bill does not prohibit a holder of an unregistered right from registering that right. If one attaches any value whatever to the right that one has to certain land, then one will naturally have that right registered. This would in any case give one better protection and ensure that one does not suffer damages as a result of expropriation.

Section 68 (1) of the Water Act contains a deficiency in that it does not provide for the establishment of advisory committees for State subterranean water control areas. It does in fact provide for the establishment of advisory committees for State surface water control areas, but not for subterranean areas. We are now amending this section so that it will be possible to appoint advisory committees for State subterranean water control areas as well. Hon. members will appreciate that such advisory committees are of great assistance because the allotment of and control over water has always been a thorny problem. We find the assistance of local committees very useful, for they are the people who know the local conditions and perhaps know them much better than the departmental officials. They can give us a great deal of useful advice as to how to set about things so as to bring about greater satisfaction.

As regards Section 84, it sometimes happens that irregularities occur in irrigation board elections, because the Act does not authorize the Department to appoint an official as election officer at ordinary board elections. This section is now being amended so as to make it possible for the Department to appoint election officers to manage such irrigation board elections. They will, of course, be officials of the Department who are conversant with the Act and with the procedure at such elections. It sometimes happens that people meet in all good faith to elect an irrigation board. It may then be discovered later on that there are legal provisions which have not been complied with, with the result that the election is declared null and void and everything has to be repeated, which is a waste of time.

Section 86 of the Act is now being amended so that the chairmen and vice-chairmen of irrigation boards may be elected for a certain period, and not necessarily for as long as the members of the irrigation board are prepared to leave them in office. We feel that a better system would be to introduce a minimum period and also to grant the Minister the authority to extend the period if it becomes necessary to do so and if there are good reasons why they should serve for longer than five years. If more people gained the necessary experience, the situation would not arise that a board would lack capable leaders.

Section 88 of the Act is being amended to provide for the application of the provisions of Section 63 (8), as amended by Act 56 of 1961, to irrigation boards. The amendment of Section 63 (8) in 1961 corrected a deficiency in the Act at that time, which allowed the creation of uneconomical units when scheduled land within State water control areas was subdivided. Due to an oversight, this amendment was not effected also as regards Section 88, which sought to apply the correction to irrigation boards as well.

The proposed amendment in Section 162 provides for the increase of the maximum subsidy payable to a farmer for a water work, from R600 to R 1,000. There has been a tremendous rise in prices since the passing of the Water Act in 1965, and we felt that the subsidy paid by the State in respect of such works should be adapted to the new conditions, and also to the depreciation in the value of money. I am sure this amendment will be welcomed.

Chapter 9 bis is a new chapter. In recent years the Department has received numerous representations regarding the application of control over water sports. The House will be aware of the remarkable increase in water sports activities in recent times. Water sport must be one of the most satisfying open air sports, but in its various forms it is fraught with many hazards for devotees. Boats used for certain water sports nowadays are so fast and powerful that participants in other, slower water sports are exposed to many perils. It has therefore become necessary to exercise national control over water sports. It is desirable that the necessary powers of control should vest in the Minister of Water Affairs. The Bill provides for this. It grants the necessary powers of control in respect of inland reservoirs, rivers, tidal zones of rivers and estuaries and lagoons. Suitable regulations for areas which in the public interest will be declared to be water sports control areas, will be drawn up, promulgated and enforced. The Bill provides that the Minister may delegate such powers of control over water sports as he may in his discretion deem fit in each individual case to local authorities, irrigation boards, provincial administrations, other statutory bodies or Government Departments. The delegation of powers of control, however, will not relieve the Minister concerned of his responsibility to ensure the safety of the public in water sports. When powers are delegated, suitable conditions will be imposed by the Minister in order to afford proper protection to the public interest.

I think this is the only explanation that is required at this stage and I move accordingly.

As the hon. the Minister has said this measure introduces a number of amendments to the ordinary functioning of the legislation controlling water, that is to say, apart from the new Chapter 9bis. In that respect a number of improvements are being effected. We support this measure in principle at the second reading. It covers such matters as the necessity for the Minister to give notice in the Press of his intention to expropriate land or rights so that those who hold unregistered or undefined rights will know that their rights, such as they are, are likely to be effected by the expropriation which is to take place. The effect of that is this, that persons who would not otherwise receive a direct notice from the Department concerned will now, if they look after their own affairs, have that knowledge that their rights might be affected.

The hon. the Minister also mentioned the fact that clarity was now being introduced into the legislation to the effect that only persons who had registered rights would be able to claim compensation from the State where land was being expropriated for State purposes. That is a clarification which one can understand and support because were it not for the fact that only those persons with registered rights should be compensated then, of course, the system would be open to abuse and the Department of Water Affairs would simply not know where it stood. There are other matters in respect of which this legislation is desirable. For example, it creates a new notion of subterranean water control. One knows from experience that due to the extent to which water is needed in this country at the moment, due to the lack of control, what we had regarded as substantial and permanent sources of water in many areas, are no longer such. I think it is desirable that that source of water should now be capable of control.

As far as irrigation boards are concerned I agree with the hon. the Minister that he should have power to authorize an officer of his Department to ensure that an election is properly conducted. We on this side believe, however, that it is introducing a wrong principle when the hon. the Minister seeks to be able to limit the term of office, i.e. the number of times a chairman or vice-chairman can be re-elected to an irrigation board. We agree with the principle that the Minister should ensure a fair and proper and legal election but having taken the power to ensure that that election, is properly conducted in every respect we see no reason why the choice as to who should be chairman or vice-chairman of that body should not be left to the community who are entitled to vote for the persons in those offices. One knows that in some small rural communities there are very often one or two outstanding individuals who, year in and year out, are elected chairman and secretary of the farmers’ association, for example, or the health committee and of half a dozen other committees because they are the only two, and the best two, to run the community by virtue of their office. If the community likes being run that way, and an irrigation board is representative of the community, then surely they should be entitled to do so. I would therefore say to the Minister: By all means control the manner of the election, that is to say, ensure that the election of these gentlemen is properly done. Provision is made for that, but leave it to the community itself to decide whether they; want to re-elect that chairman and vice-chairman for successive periods exceeding the five years to which it is limited in this Bill.

There is a further provision whereby it is made clear when interest is to run in respect of compensation payable for land expropriated for State purposes. There was no clarity beforehand and it is now made clear that interest is to run from the date on which the State in effect takes the land which is being expropriated. In other respects there is clarity of language. It is now made clear that not only land-owners themselves who have their land expropriated but also the owners of registered rights in respect of land can get compensation settled by a water court.

I now come to an aspect of this Bill which is as important as any of the others and that is the new clause whereby large areas of water upon which water sport is practised can be brought under some measure of control. There is no doubt that some sort of control over these areas is desirable. Water sport has become one of the favourite week-end recreations in this modern age and if one bears in mind that it includes sailing, speed-boat racing, water-skiing, fishing and bathing, many of which, taken individually, are not easily reconciled with any of the other forms of water sport, and when one bears in mind that very often all these take place at the same time on the same stretch of water, then quite clearly, if accidents are to be avoided, some sort of control must be introduced. As the hon. the Minister has said the intention is to control not only inland waterways, that is to say, control the practice of water sport on inland water ways, but on tidal estuaries and coastal lagoons as well. The Bill is sufficiently wide to enable the hon. the Minister to proclaim private waterways in addition where water sport is carried on to any extent.

The hon. the Minister has said that he takes power in this Bill to delegate authority to local authorities, provincial administrations and local boards of one kind and another, to exercise this control over the areas concerned. I am glad that he is taking power to delegate because I believe that it is a desirable thing that powers of this kind should be delegated. But before we come to the Committee Stage I would ask the hon. the Minister to cause his advisers to look again at the section where-under the Minister takes the power to delegate, because the section concerned incorporates, by inference, Section 69 of the principal Act. I believe it is in terms of that incorporation that the hon. the Minister believes he has the right to delegate this power. I think that if one looks at Section 69 of the main Act one would see that the power given there to delegate is circumscribed in certain respects to Government water works only. There is at least a doubt as to whether the hon. the Minister can delegate this power in terms of this new amending Bill under the old Section where we are concerned, not with Government water works but with other stretches of water. I think it would be well if the hon. the Minister would cause his advisers to look into that because I do not think the power of delegation goes as far as the hon. the Minister would like and as we would like to see him have.

I hope, when the hon. the Minister replies to this debate, he will enlighten the House a little more as to the manner in which he proposes to exercise the power of delegation. Has he consulted with the Provincial Administrations or with the larger municipalities as to whether they will accept these powers so that the system may function or does the hon. the Minister propose to set up a sub-department of his own and acquire all the officials which will be necessary to exercise control over these widely dispersed waters? I hope the hon. the Minister will take us a little more into his confidence and give us an idea of how he proposes to implement this delegatory power and who in fact is going to look after these stretches of water and control water sport in these widely dispersed areas.

There is one other aspect of this matter upon which I should like the hon. the Minister to enlighten the House and it is this: The clause dealing with the control of water sport, as it stands, is framed sufficiently widely for the hon. the Minister, if that is his policy and his intention, to prohibit the exercise or the practice of water sport on a Sunday. One knows that in certain areas of the country, particularly those which cater for holiday-makers, such as Durban, Port Elizabeth, Cape Town and East London, the practice of water sport is frequently undertaken on a Sunday. As this Bill, in its present form, is sufficiently wide for the hon. the Minister to exercise that power, if it is his intention to do so, I would ask the hon. the Minister to state quite clearly whether or not it is his intention to use these powers to prohibit or control the practice of water sport merely because it is taking place on a Sunday. I believe, Sir, that in matters of this kind there is a great deal to be said for the principle of local option. One knows that views differ on matters of this kind and by that means (i.e. local option) most schools of thought can be satisfied. There should be no need for controversy. We are dealing here with a second-reading debate and I would like to ask the hon. the Minister merely to state in principle whether it is his intention to use this measure for that purpose or not.

For the rest I think it is necessary that I should say that I ask this question of the hon. the Minister because we do know there is a school of thought which thinks that there should be such control. We have had a select committee on this subject which appears not to be sitting any longer.

We support this Bill because not only does it improve the functioning of the Minister nad his Department under the existing Water Act but it does enable the present position in the sphere of water sport to be controlled so that, for example, the accidents which have taken place by the uncontrolled practice of water sport in some water areas in South Africa will be brought to an end. Large areas of water can now be demarcated in such a way that whether one is interested in water-skiing, sailing, fishing or any of the other forms of water sport, everybody will be able to indulge in their particular fancy without harming or being harmed by anybody else.

I am very pleased to notice the good spirit which exists to-day in connection with the Department of Water Affairs, The hon. member who has just spoken, spoke very sensibly. He is in complete agreement with the proposed amendments. The few objections which he advanced can very easily be resolved at the Committee Stage. I think that, generally speaking, he was very fair, very far-sighted and reasonable in his arguments. [Interjections.] I am a person who always gives credit where credit is due. That hon. member is deserving of credit and so I congratulate him on his speech. I am sure the hon. the Minister will do the same.

There is no doubt that we are very proud of our Water Act of 1956. The remark was made just now that a few hon. members who, among others, were responsible for that Act, are no longer with us. I think, for example, of the late hon. member for Albany, Mr. Tom Bowker. He played an important part as far as the Water Act of 1956 was concerned and we want to-day to pay tribute to him for the work which he did in that connection. Although we on this side of the House have agreed to the improvements to be effected to that Act, we have opposed any meddling with its principle. This Bill is amending that Act so as to adapt it to the times in which we are living. There is no principle involved. The hon. the Minister can now take swifter action in certain respects such as, for example, in the case of expropriation. Another question that was asked was in regard to the registration of rights. As you know, Mr. Speaker, in terms of the 1914 and 1934 Acts, an owner had to register his rights. Everyone had to register his rights in terms of the 1914 Act but after some time it was discovered that everyone had not registered. The matter was then postponed until the 1934 Act was passed. Those registrations then closed, except for the fact that certain rights were still allocated to a lesser extent. Many people did not realize at the time the loss they could suffer by not registering. Those people are now coming into their own by means of this Bill. They can also now obtain compensation on a reasonable basis as in the case of those who registered. I do not think any hon. member will object in this regard. I think that it is the right thing to do.

There is also the question of subterranean water. We all know what the position is in this regard in our country. There are people who pump more water than they need. The result is that the water level drops. It drops lower and lower until desert conditions result. I think that it is a very good thing that provision of this nature is being inserted here.

I am also pleased about the provisions which will control water sport in the future. The hon. member for Vereeniging (Mr. B. Coetzee) pointed out that accidents have already taken place because certain offences have been committed on our large dams. I think that we are all prepared to give the hon. the Minister every support in having this Bill, as it is before us, passed by this House.

The matter I wish to raise with the hon. the Minister is not relevant to the points raised by the hon. member for Cradock (Mr. G. F. H. Bekker) and I do not intend, therefore, referring to any of the points made by him. The point I should like to deal with is the new Chapter 9bis of this Bill. This introduces a new principle in regard to water sport control areas. The hon. member for Zululand (Mr. Cadman) has put the point of view of this side of the House in regard to this matter. I feel more information is also required from the hon. the Minister before the House agrees in principle to this provision.

The hon. the Minister has indicated that it is his intention to delegate certain powers to local authorities in local areas. He has also mentioned the fact that the ultimate responsibility will rest with him as the responsible Minister of Water Affairs. It would be appreciated if the hon. the Minister would give some indication as to the extent to which the powers to be delegated will be delegated to those local authorities in the areas concerned. In Natal, which is looked upon as the playground of the Republic, every encouragement should be given to private enterprise as well to play its part in providing the necessary facilities so as to promote tourism and so that those areas which have been so richly endowed by nature can be used to the fullest advantage by the local inhabitants. The various lakes in Natal, such as Peattie’s Lake, and the Midmar Dam are being used to a very great extent for recreational purposes. We know that adequate provision should be made for recreation in these days of strained living. That is why a certain degree of concern is being expressed by some people in the province of Natal that the hon. the Minister, being the ultimate responsible person, may bring about a degree of control which may interfere with the present position whereby these facilities are utilized on Sundays. Due to present-day traffic and the congestion on the roads, a number of people who are keen on water sport which require the use of speed boats, rather take those boats and appliances to inland resorts than to coastal resorts. This sometimes entails the travelling of a distance of 80 to 100 miles to reach their destination. Invariably these families find that Sunday is the most convenient day for them to participate in that recreation and in that sport. Therefore it is hoped that the hon. the Minister can give us an assurance that that particular aspect will also be left to the question of local option and the conditions that pertain in a particular area. In terms of legislation in the other three provinces, certain sport is prohibited, but in the Province of Natal there is no such restrictive legislation concerning the pastimes and persons’ occupations on Sundays and their participation in various sports, and various entertainment that is provided. So there are instances where these areas made available by nature have been subject to a great deal of study and a great deal of costly development and expenditure. I mention the Blue Lagoon area which is extensively used, under the control of the municipality. Recently a competition was organized to devise plans whereby that area can be more fully developed and private enterprise is to provide various facilities. That is why when reading this Bill, I have tried to come to a definition of the words “water sport”, but it is not defined in any way apart from stating that it is any sport which is practised upon or in water under Section 164ter (a) where the definition should, I believe, more specifically be defined so that a person will know whether it is sport or whether it is recreation. What I have in mind is the provision of certain boats in various areas which are hired out for boating. Or in other instances parents hire paddle-boats for children, and the use of paddle-boats can hardly be termed a water sport. It is merely a form of recreation. Similarly there are other aspects whereby people utilize the expanses of water to follow various hobbies which would not necessarily come under the definition of sport. I believe that for the sake of clarification the hon. Minister should in some way more clearly define what constitutes a water sport. The other aspects which deal with the powers to be taken by the hon. the Minister in the control of this area are also of importance. We believe that it is necessary in the interests of those persons who are using these areas at the present time that there should be a degree of control. It is quite obvious that in some sports, such as aquaplaning, there is a considerable amount of danger to other persons in the area, and also to the persons who are participating in this sport, and there should be the necessary provision made so as to ensure that there is a degree of control which can prevent serious accidents taking place. It is also felt that some persons partaking in water sports, and due to the facilities and the extensive use of those facilities by other persons using those areas for their particular type of sport, some of them are unable to find an area where they can take part in their particular type of water sport with a degree of safety and without hindering other persons in the use of that area. The position is that the hon. Minister is putting forward a new principle in this Bill which on the surface would appear to be a principle which is necessary for the better control of these areas. But at the same time I think the House requires a little more clarification in regard to the position and the principle that is involved. I felt the hon. Minister dealt rather sparingly with this particular aspect of the Bill, and I do hope that when the hon. Minister replies to the debate, he will give a further clarification in regard to the degree of power that he intends delegating to the local authorities, and to give some further clarification as to the steps that he intends taking as the ultimate responsible Minister, so that we are sure that the interests and the degree of freedom that is allowed in some of those areas at the present time is not endangered in any way by accepting this principle.

I should like to associate myself with the remarks made by previous speakers on both sides of the House in welcoming this Bill. I myself am convinced that this new measure will be a great improvement on the old Act. I think particularly of the provisions in the Bill which will now give the hon. the Minister power to control water which did not exist in the past. I think, for example, of my own constituency. There is a large scheme between Ventersdorp and Klerksdorp, the Schoonspruit scheme, the irrigation board of which has complained to me about the conditions which exist there on Sundays and over week-ends. People go there for a week-end’s relaxation. If often happens that damage is caused. The irrigation board has erected fences along the walls of the dam but the people who go there have no respect for those fences. The result is that the irrigation board has to effect repairs from time to time and no control is exercised. The irrigation board does not have the power to take action. This provision in the Bill which gives the hon. the Minister the power to exercise control in this regard, as he and his Department deem fit, will of course, be of great assistance in overcoming this position.

Another point is the provision in the Bill by means of which the hon. the Minister can now appoint committees in regard to water control. I think particularly here of the dolomite area in my constituency where there is dolomite water. I may say by way of explanation that the present position in regard to the control of water is that this control is exercised by the Department itself through its officials who inform the Department from time to time in regard to the tests which are made. I believe that the committees which will now replace that type of control will be very much more thorough because the members of those committees will know the conditions there. Of course, I expect that the committees which will be appointed will also have as members some of the farmers who are personally interested in that connection and I think that the hon. the Minister will therefore be given the correct advice as far as these matters are concerned. But what I actually want to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister is this: He is well acquainted with the position. I have already headed a deputation to him and have also headed a few deputations to the Secretary for Water Affairs in connection with the position which has now arisen in the dolomite area as a result of the drought and as a result of the fact that the water table has fallen to such an extent. I may say that the farmers have made large investments in that area. They have had their farms planned and have spent large sums of money on water installations, boreholes and so forth, so much so that I should like to quote a few figures in this regard. One farmer has spent R112,000 on his farm, another, R86,000, another, R 12,300 and yet another R16,000. I am in possession of a list of names, 31 in all, of people who have all spent large sums on their farms in drilling for water and in the erection of installations for sprinkler irrigation purposes. They have purchased dairy herds and have planned their farms so as to enable them to practise mixed farming. Now the water table has fallen. When the hon. the Minister visited Lichtenburg I showed him the dolomite water resources and so he is acquainted with the position there. The water resources have deteriorated to a very large extent and the result is that the Mafeking Municipality have also become involved because they obtain the water for Municipal consumption from one of the most important sources there. They have reported to the Department of Water Affairs that their water quota is in the balance, with the result that a proclamation was issued last year. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that these 31 farmers whom I have mentioned are very disturbed. The position is that water control is being applied. I want to point out that this state of affairs can only result in heavy financial losses for those farmers. The information I have obtained from the Department of Water Affairs is that research in connection with the water table has not yet been completed. The geological and hydrological surveys are not yet completed; there is uncertainty in that regard. I want to ask the hon. the Minister to have research done before the water supplies to those farmers are curtailed. It is contended by the farmers who know the conditions there that things are not nearly as bad as the Departments makes them out to be. You will realize, Sir, that this is a real threat to the farmers. I myself am disturbed about the position. I want to repeat that large investments have been made in these farms and that some of the finest and most expensive farms in the whole of the Western Transvaal are situated in that area. One cannot buy a dry maize farm under R200 or R240 per morgen. The farms are well planned and the investments of the farmers are large. If their farming operations are disrupted they may suffer heavy financial losses. I want therefore to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister to remove that uncertainty as soon as possible so that the farmers will not, unless absolutely necessary, be restricted in regard to their water supplies. I hope the hon. the Minister will give his serious attention to this matter.

The hon. member for Lichtenburg (Mr. M. C. van Niekerk) has referred briefly to the damage which may be caused by people who visit various water-sport areas to enjoy the facilities offered at those areas. I wish to refer briefly to another aspect and that is the harm which these people themselves may experience as a result of participating in the facilities offered at the various water-sport areas. Under Clause 7 of this Bill the Minister refers to the question of the control of water-sport areas and has indicated in the Bill that the State President may by proclamation declare any area to be a watersport area, and then in a subsequent clause of the Bill, provision is made for regulations to be promulgated in order to control these areas on a satisfactory basis. In the White Paper reference is made to the areas which it is sought to control as water-sport areas; reference is made to river mouths, lagoons, and other places near the seashore, but my main concern this evening is the question of the inland water-sport areas which will probably be controlled in terms of this Bill. The White Paper refers to the question of the lack of control over such areas where water sport takes place as being a hazard which might cause fatalities. The hon. member for Umbilo (Mr. Oldfield) has already referred to this particular aspect. I am not thinking so much of actual fatalities but I believe there is another very serious hazard to which I trust the hon. the Minister will give his serious attention, that is the question of bilharzia in the areas which will now become water-sport areas. I would like to refer briefly to the latest report of the C.S.I.R. Under the heading “bilharzia” it says this—

Sir, I believe that this particular clause is of significance to this particular Minister, because with irrigation schemes, and agricultural development in areas where vector snails occur, conditions are unwittingly created which tend to spread the disease amongst men and animals. I believe that these water-sport areas will create conditions where bilharzia could probably thrive and where it could become a bigger menace than it is at the present time. We have heard from authorities, from people of no less stature than Dr. Gear, that irrigation dams and canals are the ideal places for bilharzia snails to develop and propagate. We hear too that the areas most prone to infection are Northern Natal and Northern Transvaal. The incidence has increased to such an extent now that it is considered to be an occupational disease. Almost 2,000,000 people suffer from this dreadful disease. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister has given consideration to this particular aspect because I believe that with water-sport taking place in these inland areas, one will have boating, bathing, camping, fishing and water-skiing, all of which could result in immersion in water which is infected with bilharzia and this could result in the persons concerned becoming bilharzia patients.

Earlier this Session the hon. the Minister of Health, in a debate on this subject, indicated that there were aspects of bilharzia and irrigation problems which were not within his purview, but which were the affair of another Minister and that he therefore could not promulgate regulations with regard to the control of irrigation canals or irrigation systems. It is this reason which prompts me to raise the matter under this Bill in order to ask this Minister whether the particular aspect I have raised here has received his consideration. Sir, I know that there are certain types of molluscicides which have been released, and I refer particularly to WL8008, which has produced remarkable results in the control of bilharzia, Possibly the use of molluscicides may be a solution to the problem which the Minister may find he has on his hands in the inland water areas. But, Sir, there is also a hazard in this respect, that the molluscicides in many cases also destroy the natural enemies to the snails themselves which cause bilharzia. I feel therefore that the hon. the Minister could give a lead in this direction and that he could give some indication as to whether it is his intention to delegate to local authorities, power which will help them to control and eradicate any threat of bilharzia in these inland water areas which will now be used for water-sport.

I want to associate myself with what has been said by previous speakers on this side of the House to the effect that the hon. the Minister was rather vague in his introductory remarks in regard to this Bill. I want to start with the representations made by the hon. member for Lichtenburg (Mr. M. C. van Niekerk) to the hon. the Minister in connection with the control of subterranean water. I shall be pleased if in his reply to this portion of the debate the hon. the Minister will tell us whether this measure will affect not only waters fed by rain and flood waters, but also artesian water which has to be extracted from a depth of 1,000 feet or more. As the hon. member for Lichtenburg so rightly said, apart from the development that has already taken place in regard to subterranean water, there is an increasing tendency on the part of farmers to search for water at greater depths than in the past. They are no longer searching for water to-day at a depth of 200 or 300 feet but are inclined to drill as deeply as their drills allow, and a large amount of success has already been obtained in regard to the discovery of subterranean water at great depths. I take it that the hon. the Minister does not have in mind the fact that this will fall within the limits of a subterranean water control area.

The hon. member for Lichtenburg went on to say that he hoped that the hon. the Minister would appoint committees to advise him in this connection. In Clause 2 of the Bill, reference is made to the appointment of committees. Before we come to the Committee Stage of the Bill we shall be pleased if the hon. the Minister will tell us (a) whether a minimum number of members will be appointed to such an advisory committee or whether such a committee will only consist of two or three members or whether such a committee will consist of not less than three members, and (b) from which bodies the members of these advisory committees will be appointed. Will the members of these committees be magistrates or members of divisional councils or members of municipalities or of farmers’ associations? How does the hon. the Minister intend to constitute these advisory committees? The Bill is extremely vague in this respect; it simply provides that the hon. the Minister may appoint advisory committees, and the matter is left at that. We shall be pleased if the hon. the Minister will tell us what his intentions are in this regard.

I should like now to discuss Chapter 9 about which a great deal has already been said. As far as the delegation of powers to public bodies, provincial administrations, harbour authorities or whatever the case may be is concerned, it is still not clear to us whether this power will affect private owners who may, for example, have large dams on their farms and which can be regarded as areas which can be declared to be water sport control areas. There are many such dams in this country. Such person may also have a river on his farm having a large number of hippo pools or basins which are used by certain people for water sport purposes.

I think the hon. the Minister said in his introductory speech that when powers are delegated, regulations will be issued by the Minister in terms of which these powers can be delegated to public bodies. We on this side of the House would like to know whether, in regard to the delegation of powers to bodies by the Minister, the hon. the Minister’s intention is that such bodies can frame regulations subject to the approval of the Minister? Does the hon. the Minister intend delegating powers to harbour authorities, municipalities or other bodies under whose control water control areas fall without the regulations which they issue being subject to the hon. the Minister’s approval? Can they apply regulations to a certain area without the hon. the Minister’s having the final say?

As we are debating the motion for the second reading of this Bill, we shall be pleased if the hon. the Minister will give us an explanation in regard to the control of the water which is owned by private bodies.

I welcome this Bill, particularly Clause 2, which deals more specifically with control over water, and particularly in so far as it relates to control over subterranean water. The clause reads—

In my opinion it is of primary importance that we should see to it that subterranean water—and, as far as I am concerned, the water in dolomite areas—is controlled. The time for this is ripe; it is almost too late. My colleague, the hon. member for Lichtenburg, presented us with a picture of what is happening in some of the catchment areas of our dolomitic water. He told us about water extraction projects involving almost R250,000. Irrigation projects undertaken by four farmers totalled as much as R226,000. He told us that these figures represented projects undertaken by only a few of 31 farmers, who had only just started the development of their irrigation schemes. Sir, each of the dolomitic springs in that area is a miracle of nature. I could present you with irrefutable evidence that large-scale pumping of water in those dolomitic catchment areas is having a direct effect on the yield of springs. There are numerous springs with clear running water that must be protected—springs that require immediate protection.

Here I have a table compiled by the Department of Water Affairs in respect of 12 of those springs, which are fed from the dolomitic catchment area. This table covers the period from 1960 to 1964. I am trying to demonstrate that pumping causes a rapid falling of the water table, as well as a decrease in the yield from those springs. Vergenoegd is one of the oldest and best-known springs in the Marico district. That spring has been in use for irrigation purposes for more than 100 years. In 1960 it was still yielding 1.5 cusecs of water per hour. It was consistent, and in 1961 it was yielding 1.7 cusecs per hours, 1.3 in 1962 and 1.1 in June, 1963. A land-owner above the spring then drilled a number of boreholes and commenced pumping operations; the yield fell to .61 cusecs in December, 1964—in other words, a rapid decrease of .89 cusecs. Before that the yield had been consistent—it had not been affected by droughts. That spring is now virtually empty.

I could mention another spring, on the farm Kafferskraal, where the yield decreased from .71 to .03; or that on Doornfontein, where it decreased from .38 cusecs to .04, after extensive pumping had been done in the immediate vicinity.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 23 and debate adjourned.