We find considerable increases here on various heads and would like to have information from the hon. Minister firstly in regard to the increase of R317,000 on sub-head “Salaries, Wages and Allowances” and also the increase of R203,000 under H, “Maintenance of Telegraphs and Telephones”

I would like to ask the hon. Minister to give us information in regard to sub-head T, “Contribution towards the Development of Communication Satellite Systems”. This is a new item dealing with an organization designed to provide assistance and equipment in respect of satellite communication for television purposes, and I feel that the hon. Minister would do well to use this opportunity to tell us how South Africa’s television prospects will fit in with the satellite programme of the world?

There is a new item here, Item S “Running Expenses on External Radio Service”. We are asked to vote an amount of R140,000 for this new item. Mr. Chairman, we have always been under the impression that there was in fact an external service conducted by the S.A.B.C. known as the “Africa Service”. May we now know from the hon. the Minister whether this money we are asked to vote here is a first contribution to the setting up of special beam services for the African Continent and other territories in Africa with a view to putting over South Africa’s case, and also as a means of serving the Protectorate Territories and the Territory of South West Africa—the hon. Minister obviously knows that South West Africa has a very poor reception as far as the present S.A.B.C. internal services are concerned. There is also another aspect that arises here, on which I am sure the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs will have something to say, because quite obviously if this is a new external radio service it must have certain implications in regard to the message presented by this service as far as the other territories of Africa are concerned. What I would like to know specifically from the hon. Minister of Foreign Affairs is whether he has been consulted by the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs in regard to the policy that will be applied in what will be disseminated by this service. Where these factors are involved, we can hardly expect that the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs will allow an autonomous body such as the S.A.B.C. to direct policy and the presentation of South African policy, South Africa’s position on the African Continent without at least some directive, or advice being given by the Minister of Foreign Affairs who has to conduct our negotiations with foreign states and territories. We would also like to know this: It is common knowledge that the other territories of Africa to-day are being bombarded on the air from the communist controlled territories, and much of the communist propaganda in Africa, as the Minister will also be aware, uses South Africa as the whipping boy. Therefore I think it is a very pertinent question to ask the hon. Minister in the conduct of these external services what steps will be taken by the S.A.B.C. to get adequate and proper guidance in the presentation of this foreign service in order to counter the communist propaganda conducted from beyond the shores of Africa towards the African people about South Africa.

Have you become aware of the Communist propaganda now?

It is no good the hon. member for Port Elizabeth (North) asking such silly questions across the floor of the House when we are trying to give an objective approach to a matter of this kind. This side of the House has long advocated the conduct of a proper beamed radio service to the countries of Africa.

Were you a “friend of the Soviet Union”

When you get such silly interjections, what is the hon. member in actual fact doing? He is supplying food for Communist propaganda against South Africa. Observations in a debate of this nature, silly interjections of the nature the hon. member for Prieska has just made across the floor of this House, are often used against South Africa to work up the feelings of the Black peoples of Africa against the White people of South Africa. The hon. member ought to know that the Communists use these tactics and he should rot make such silly interjections in the depth of his ignorance in this House.

Mr. Chairman, this is not just a small item. St is an important matter, and I hope that the hon. Minister of Posts and Telegraphs and the Minister of Foreign Affairs will take the opportunity of giving us a full and explicit picture of what is envisaged in these developments. There is another aspect about it. All operations of the S.A.B.C. are financed by radio listeners’ licences. The listeners in South Africa finance the activities of the S.A.B.C., and it is obvious in a conduct of this nature that the South African listeners are going to get little benefit. A lot has been written about these transmitters, powerful transmitters directed to Africa, but who in the long run is going to pay? I think it is a pertinent question to put to the hon. the Minister. Is the ordinary South African listener of the S.A.B.C. going to pay for this service, or is the S.A.B.C. going to get a special grant by way of subsidy, either from the Department of Foreign Affairs, from the Department of the Minister of Information or any other department in order to finance these services? Before I sit down there is one other question I would like to put to the hon. Minister: What steps are going to be taken in order that the services will be of any value at all in respect of the language medium in which these services will be conducted? Will attempts be made by the S.A.B.C., or even the Minister of Information, to obtain people who by language are qualified to operate and conduct and present adequately and efficiently the services that will be presented in these external services? I hope that the hon. Minister will take this opportunity of making a very full statement on this matter.

I would like to know the hon. Minister’s reasons for embarking upon a fairly substantial item of expenditure under item S “Running Expenses on External Radio Service.” Among those reasons will be, e.g., the approach to the intensity of the service, the distance from the station in South Africa which can be covered by any particular programme, the saturation of this Continent, or any other part of the world, with the material which is going to be used in these broadcasts, whether the material is provided in vacuo by the S.A.B.C., or whether it is provided by the Department of Information, or whether it is provided in consultation between those two departments or bodies; whether, for example, ministerial statements to which we are accustomed on our internal radio service will form a part of the programmes to be beamed to the rest of the Continent of Africa, ostensibly for the purpose of popularizing the Government and its policies in those territories? In fact, all those factors to justify the reason underlying this expenditure. I think we, on this side of the House, are speaking on behalf of all the people in South Africa, not only those who support our party, when we raise these points.

Kimberley (North) has shown you.

Yes, I presume even to speak for the hon. Minister of Information, and I hope I will make a better job of it than when he speaks for himself. The public would want to know what exactly is the intention and the policy underlying this departure.

Thank heavens you are sitting over there.

I think the Nationalist Party will rue the day when they let the hon. Minister into their party—any day now! The hon. Minister of Information may know more about this item than I. I concede that. But he should not take umbrage at the fact, as he appears to be doing, that we are asking for information. I hope he will excuse us for living, as an Opposition. As I said before, this service can be of tremendous significance, for good or for evil, as far as South Africa is concerned. It will depend entirely on the approach of the Government and the approach of the hon. the Minister to the expenditure of this money, about which we have now put to him several questions.

The other item with which I want to deal briefly, T, is, of course, the development of the communication satellite system. I take it that in the reasoning underlying this expenditure of R35,000, the hon. Minister has taken into account that, as the hon. member for Durban (Point) (Mr. Raw) has said, communication satellites can be and have been used for the broadcasting of television programmes. I am not suggesting that that is the intention of the hon. the Minister. We know exactly where he stands in regard to television. But that does not mean that he can ignore the fact that communication satellites, and in particular Telstar, will be increasingly used in order to transmit television programmes. A very difficult position may arise for this Government as a result of the latest developments in this field. I hope the hon. Minister took cognizance of a statement in the Press this morning in the Cape Times, by the president of the biggest company in the development of television in the U.S.A., the Radio Corporation of America, who prophesied that within ten years it will be possible for a person having a certain type of instrument to receive from and to beam television programmes to another person having the identical equipment, that will cost very little indeed. Just as the people in all those countries took advantage of the Telstar communication system during the latter part of last year and were able to see and I for one saw them in the United States—the Olympic Games in Tokio, taking place thousands of miles away, so in the very near future, regardless of the attitude of the hon. Minister of Posts and Telegraphs to television, it will be possible for persons who have a certain type of instrument or equipment in South Africa to pick up television programmes from communication satellites, such as Telstar. I say that the hon. the Minister must take this into account when he determines his expenditure of R35,000, because whether those instruments are admitted into the country—legally or illegally, there is no doubt whatsoever that they will come into South Africa. Even this hon. Minister and even this hon. Government will not succeed in cutting us off from this medium of communication for all time, and I hope that in considering this expenditure, he has taken into account the fact that he may well have provided a means for the public of South Africa—within the next five or ten years—to pick up television programmes from Telstar and other communication satellites, whether the hon. Minister likes it or not. We would like to hear his views on that subject.

May I first reply to the questions put by the hon. member for Drakensberg (Mrs. S. M. van Niekerk). The increase of R370,000 under Item A is due to the fact that the salaries of non-White staff were reviewed on 1 April 1964 and no provision was made for that in the original Estimates. In regard to a question in connection with the Sub-Head “H”, the increase of R203,000, I just want to say that that is due to the tremendous damage caused over a widespread area as the result of the severe cold during the last winter. At the same time it also includes the costs connected to the manufacture of spare parts for telephone coin-boxes now that the coinage is being changed.

The hon. member for Turffontein (Mr. Durrant) referred to the expenditure under Item “S”, running expenses on external radio service. Perhaps I may just remind hon. members that we are living in a world of propaganda to-day, and it strikes all of us who listen in to the radio broadcasts from overseas that one principle is being accepted to-day, and that is the communist principle, viz. that that propaganda can lie and lie and lie, and that the secret of it is that they never stop lying. They think that if only they can continue lying, then by the time the first lie has been controverted they have already reached the world with a whole series of further lies.

The Nazi technique.

Now the fact is that if the voice of truth has to be stilled in this world, then the nation which wants to speak the truth has no chance in this conflict. Just as the enemy spreads lies across the world, it is necessary to give a balanced, correct version to the world, and radio has now become an essential instrument in this regard, and it is a medium in regard to which all countries in the world are to-day spending enormous amounts of money. Most of the Governments in the world have entered this struggle, which has been necessitated, as I have said, because so many untruths are broadcast. Russia, e.g., has an extensive system of propaganda services covering practically the whole world and concentrated on all parts of the world and being broadcast in many languages, whether it is directed at America or Africa or Asia. Britain has an extensive system of foreign broadcasts which are made by the B.B.C.—not by the British Government as such but by the B.B.C. as the agent of the British Government. The B.B.C. every week broadcasts more than 11,000 news programmes and 1,200 talks in a series of languages and they broadcast it from a multiplicity of transmission stations, some of which are amongst the most powerful in the world, stations of 250 kilowatt and in some cases even stronger. America also belabours the world—not the American Government itself, but through an agency known as The Voice of America. America possesses radio stations by means of which they broadcast to the world not only in America itself, but they have stations also in other parts of the world; also in Africa they have stations which concentrate exclusively on Africa. I may refer to the report in this morning’s Cape Times to the effect that the B.B.C. is now erecting four transmission stations of 250 kilowatt each on the Island of Ascension in order to serve Africa, and probably also South Africa and Rhodesia.

It must be clear to everybody to-day that, as Mr. Macmillan said, there is “a struggle for the mind of man” in progress. Right throughout the world there is a struggle to control the imagination and the thoughts of mankind, whether that is done in a desirable manner or not, and whether it is done for selfish purposes or not. But everywhere the radio is being used as one of the most powerful media to control the thoughts of man. We in South Africa who see once in a while what is going on and listen to what is being broadcast are struck by the lies told and by the way suspicion is sown in the mind of the Black man against the White man, and how White people are even being made suspicious of one another, and all the suspicion which is being sown against South Africa right throughout the world. Just for the sake of interest, I should like to refer to one broadcast from Moscow which I happen to have here—

And then shortly after that we have Cairo saying—

Then Ghana tells the Black people of Africa—

I just mention this in passing. It is not extraordinary. That is the sort of propaganda being broadcast every day over the whole of Africa and which hangs over the whole of Africa like air pollution. You should not forget. Sir, that the nations making use of the radio today do so very effectively and loudly, because the principle is well known in the radio world that the man who listens in does not listen in to weak sounds; he prefers to listen in to the strongest sounds. There may be reasons why under certain circumstances he listens to weaker sounds, but in general he listens to the loudest broadcasts. And if one looks at the senders which all these countries use to-day, one will find that most of them are amongst the most powerful types made to-day. Ghana has 100 kilowatt senders. Peking and Moscow and the B.B.C. use 250 kilowatt senders. America even uses a 500 kilowatt sender in one case. But we in South Africa have always been cautious and have been using small transmitters of approximately 20 kilowatt. Now it is true that the broadcasts from Peking and Moscow and America must go long distances and that diminishes their effectiveness. That is why we with our small 20 kilowatt stations here in South Africa could still compare with them, although the comparison was perhaps not very much to our advantage. We can also bring a message to the people of Africa, and you will be surprised, Sir, to see the letters coming from all over Africa, letters of appreciation for the balanced and fair messages broadcast to Africa by the S.A.B.C.

Now hon. members should ask themselves: When one broadcasts to Africa, whom does one reach in Africa? Those great masses? The 220,000,000 people in Africa do not all have radio sets; they cannot all listen in, and even if they do listen in they cannot understand the languages in which the broadcasts are made. What then is the purpose of this propaganda? In the case of many countries it is a sort of status symbol. Even in the case of a small country like Ghana it has become a sort of status symbol. They think that if they have a station which can broadcast all over Africa and the world they take a front seat among the nations of the world. But the thinking man sees it differently. Because whom do you actually reach? With all these broadcasts one actually reaches only selected persons. One reaches only the people who already have radio sets, and they form a small minority in Africa. One reaches only those people who can understand the language in which one broadcasts, and they form an even smaller group. In fact, one reaches only a small group of the thinking leaders of Africa. But that does not make it less important; it makes it much more important. It is important because if one can reach the leader one at the same time reaches his followers, and then one gradually reaches ever-widening circles in Africa. Therefore we should not despise these broadcasts, but at the same time we should not over-estimate their value either.

But in this programme of analyzing whom we want to reach, we immediately come to the conclusion that if we want to reach the leaders we need not broadcast in all the languages and dialects in Africa. Because the House should remember that in Africa it is estimated that there are perhaps 2,000 languages and dialects. One cannot broadcast in 2,000 languages and dialects. One can broadcast only in certain languages and particularly in those languages in which one can reach the leaders of Africa.

Let me now come back to the S.A.B.C. During the course of the years the S.A.B.C., with its two weak transmitters of 20 kilowatt, gave a message to Africa, and an impartial and fair message. It began to get the reputation in Africa of broadcasting impartial and fair messages, to which everybody could listen and which everyone could accept. But more than that, the S.A.B.C. has in recent years developed what is known in the radio world as a transcription service. That is a service whereby the best of the local programmes, of the South African programmes, are recorded on tapes and discs, which are then given gratis, or sometimes sold, to radio stations all over the world which apply for it and, Sir, you will be surprised to know that to-day there are already more than 630 broadcasting stations in the world which eagerly apply for these recordings made by the S.A.B.C. That is proof of the high status and the regard enjoyed by the S.A.B.C. services because of its impartiality and truth.

Now we realize that in order to keep pace with the competition to reach the ears of the world, and when in regard to South Africa we want to give a fair and impartial reproduction (not to make propaganda nor to depict South Africa in a more favourable light than is actually the case, because that is not necessary), we must make use of the best possible methods. I am convinced that every person who comes to South Africa and sees the true facts realizes the fairness of the whole position here, also the inherent fairness of the White man in South Africa in all his actions, and sees the harmony in South Africa and the goodwill which exists between the various population groups, whether they are Black, Coloured or White. It is not necessary for us to make propaganda in the world: it is necessary only to give a true picture of the actual circumstances in South Africa. It is the task of the S.A.B.C. merely to give the world a true picture of South Africa. But now we realize that in this competition to reach the ears of the listeners of the world it is necessary for us to be able to compete with the strength of the other broadcasts to Africa, which are much stronger than ours. Therefore the Government has decided to buy four transmitters of 250 kilowatt. Now I want to tell hon. members that one cannot buy a transmitter like a ready-made suit of clothes off a peg. A transmitter is something which one has to order years in advance, which is then made according to one’s specifications, and which is eventually delivered after a period of years. We ordered these transmitters a long time ago already and we hope that by October of this year the first transmitter of 250 kilowatt will come into operation. Hon. members must also understand that one cannot simply put down a new big transmitter and that the costs in connection with it will start only then; long preparations are necessary. One must obtain staff and train people. One needs people for every language. One of the hon. members asked me who would do the broadcasting. We have decided one thing as a very important matter of principle, and that is that the man who broadcasts must do so in his own language. It is no use an Afrikaans-speaking person broadcasting in English, or vice versa. In every case the man must broadcast in his own mother tongue. Only if one does that can one gain the confidence of the listener. To get such men is not just a moment’s work; it is a big task because these people have to be carefully selected for their efficiency, their knowledge, their accent and their way of presenting things. For that reason there are initial costs, and the item of R140,000 hon. members see here represents the costs incurred for that purpose this year, the initial costs for the services which will commence in October this year. Perhaps I may just tell hon. members that we are at the moment going to broadcast in eight languages only. It will be in Afrikaans, English, French, Portuguese, Swahili, Nederlands, Spanish and German, because after careful consideration we want to reach in the first place the people of Africa, and particularly the leaders among those people. In the second place we want to gain the ear of Europe in order to counter the false image of South Africa depicted there. Then we also want to try to bring our message home to America, so that there will at least be one voice there from Africa which will state the true position in regard to Africa.

The hon. member for Hospital said something in regard to satellites. Perhaps I should just sketch the development of the satellites. As the result of the experience gained with Telstar—hon. members will recollect that Tel-star was a satellite launched by the Americans as an experiment—it was later decided between the American Government and various European Governments to make a new attempt to use satellites for communication purposes. Now, the satellites used for those purposes can be of two kinds, low-flying or highflying. The low-flying satellites must, from the very nature of the matter, fly past one very fast, and because they move fast in order to retain their position in space, it is very difficult to use them as targets at which to aim a message which can again be deflected to the place of one’s choice First let met say this. A satellite works in the following manner. It contains a whole series of amplifiers and transmitters. It also uses the energy of the sun. But the power used by the satellite is in the order of watts, whereas the energy transmitted from the world to the satellite is in the order of kilowatts. Now the position is this. A country which wants to communicate with another country through such a satellite projects its message to that satellite. The message is received and amplified and then reflected in the direction of the country to which the message should go. But the message transmitted by the satellite is infinitely weak. That means that the country which wants to receive the message must have a tremendously strong receiver or reflector, like the one we have seen in the Transvaal. These reflectors catch up the waves and amplify them. That is the process. Now the fact is that because these low-flying satellites are so difficult to use because they pass by at such high speed, an attempt is now being made to put a satellite 24,000 miles up in space, so high that the speed at which it moves, which is enough to keep it in flight, keeps it more or less in a constant position vis-à-vis the surface of the earth. In other words, as the surface of the earth moves, so it also moves, much faster but always more or less in the same spot, opposite the place from which it was launched. But it is infinitely difficult to place that satellite in precisely that spot where it has to stay for years, and to-day it still cannot be done without auxiliary methods, and these auxiliary methods consist of small motors, jet-propelled rockets which are attached to it, so that when it moves out of its position instructions are sent to those motors from the earth and they come into operation and send it back to the place where it should be. Now it should be understood that from the nature of the matter the life of such a satellite is not unlimited. Because it needs all those rockets, such a satellite has only a limited life, and it is estimated to-day that the life of such a satellite will be approximately five years; in other words, one must launch a new satellite every five years, and that of course makes the cost much higher than it would otherwise have been. It means that the world can introduce a communication system with only three satellites placed in position in various parts of space, so that they will practically form a triangle around the earth. This scheme was originally planned by one of the big telephone companies of America, and the Governments of Europe, together with America. decided to make a joint effort to launch such a system of satellites over the world and to use it for communications right throughout the world. Hon. members will immediately recognize the advantages of this. The advantage is that one does not need cables between the various countries.

Now these countries came together and decided that in the course of the next few months they would launch one of these satellites. They further decided that all the members of the I.T.U., the International Telecommunications Union, could share in the scheme. These shares are based on percentages of the cost. The cost of the satellite is estimated at between R200,000,000 and R300,000,000, and the cost is divided between all the subscribers, between all the members of the body which will be known as Comsat. All the members of Comsat will then contribute the capital and, in proportion to their respective contributions, be granted rights to these communication channels. South Africa has been warded .3 per cent. That means that we shall have to pay .3 per cent of the capital required for this satellite, and that we will be allowed to use .3 per cent of the channels. If we take into consideration that the number of channels in that satellite are limited, and that it is estimated that the number varies between 400 and 1,000, it can be understood that we in South Africa, with .3 per cent, will perhaps get only one channel. [Interjection.] This single channel will of course not comply by far with all South Africa’s needs. During the coming years we shall need a large number of channels, but I need not go into that now.

Now hon. members will ask why we join Comsat. We are joining it because at this stage it grants us membership and because in future we shall be able to remain a member, and if the developments proceed we shall always be able to choose whether we want to have a share in those greater developments or not. In other words, this amount we are now going to pay as our .3 per cent of the cost of the satellite is only the beginning, and this satellite will probably be called the Early Bird, and our share in this Early Bird will practically be in the form of key money because that is the key to the future. [Interjections.] That hon. member can never rid his mind of television, but let me tell him something further about television. I said a moment ago that the impulses coming back to earth from the satellite are in the order of watts, as weak as one of the bulbs we use in our homes; the impulses emitted are very weak and none of us can use them, and therefore if we want to make use of such a satellite system it is necessary to erect one of those huge parabolic reflectors, which are movable. One of the cheapest types of reflector costs no less than R6,000,000. Therefore, if the hon. member for Hospital wants to walk about in the streets with such a reflector in his pocket he will have to pay R6,000,000 for it, and he will still find it very difficult to get television. I think I have now replied to everything.

I do not want to enter the realms of outer space, but I think the Minister will appreciate that we on this side of the House have a full appreciation of the fact that wherever possible these developments which have taken place in the scientific sphere must be utilized by us, and we would like to see our country playing its part in them to the fullest possible extent.

I want to return to this question of the external services to which the Minister devoted a great deal of his time in telling us about the dangers of communist propaganda to our country and to Africa but, Sir, we have been telling the Minister this for a very long time. I do not know why he spent so much time giving us this long discourse about what is broadcast from China and Russia. We know it, and we are well aware of the fact that as far as the air war is concerned little or nothing has been done as far as our country is concerned. The Africa Service has been of a very limited nature compared with the other services conducted by the S.A.B.C. What the Minister has not done is that he has not answered certain very pertinent questions I put to him. Now, we have learnt certain things. We have learnt that we are going to have four transmitters each of 250 kilowatt capacity, and that the first transmitter will be in operation in October. We have learned from the Minister that in order that the propaganda, as he calls it, in presenting a truthful picture of South Africa, should be effective it must be broadcast in the language of the people it will reach, and he mentioned eight languages. But the point at issue is: What is going to be broadcast? Who is going to direct the message of a powerful 250-kilowatt transmitter which, I presume, because the Minister has not told us, will in the first instance be directed to the rest of Africa. Apart from the normal music and entertainment that will be offered on such a programme to attract the listeners, because without entertainment there will be no listeners, who will conduct the talks and who will present the picture; and above all, who will direct the policy in respect of the message of South Africa that will be presented? It is a very pertinent question to ask because the Minister has repeatedly said in this House that the S.A.B.C. is an autonomous body on whom he can enforce no policy whatsoever in respect of what they broadcast. If that is so, are we therefore going to leave the entire responsibility for the message of South Africa to the S.A.B.C.? Are they going to direct the policy in regard to what should be presented? Is the Minister of Information going to act in an advisory capacity? God forbid that this should happen. [Interjections.] There is one very important aspect when you deal with foreign services. The Minister cited the Voice of America and the B.B.C.’s services, but the Minister must surely be aware, as I know the Minister of Foreign Affairs is aware, that the policy in regard to the Voice of America is under the control of the Department of Foreign Affairs, or the State Department; the Minister must surely be aware that in regard to the various overseas services of the B.B.C. the Department of Foreign Affairs of the U.K. and the Information Section of that Department have a great deal to say in respect of the policy and the messages presented on these various services, when it comes to giving Government policy. But in our case, who is going to direct that policy? Are we going to leave it to the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs? Will he now give a policy directive to the Board of Governors of the S.A.B.C. as to what the messages will be transmitted by these powerful senders to America and Africa and the rest of the world? It cannot just be left in the air by saying that we will have some sort of transcription service and that there will be a bright individual speaking through a microphone who can talk Swahili or Portuguese or some other language. After all, when you are sending out the message of your country there must be some presentation of policy. I think the Minister of Information will be the last to deny that he does not direct policy as far as his Department is concerned. Does he, or does he not? Does he not direct that message, or does he? The Minister accepts full responsibility for that message. I need not ask the Minister of Foreign Affairs what he does, because we know that he is attempting to direct foreign affairs policy. He gets his instructions from the Prime Minister and then directs the policy. But are we leaving it entirely to the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs to tell the world what South Africa’s policy is, e.g. in regard to our relationship with the other territories in Africa, or does the Minister of Foreign Affairs not wish to have a say in that? Does he not want to be assured that what is broadcast, the message of South Africa, conforms with the general policy of his Department? Because if the Minister does wish to see that, he cannot sit idle in this debate. He, or the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs, must tell us what steps are being taken to ensure that what is presented over these powerful senders will conform to the general foreign policy of the Government, and will conform with our policy in regard to our relations with other African states, which is the first objective, I take it, of the establishment of these senders.

But there is another question the Minister has not answered. Who is going to pay for this service? Is the licensed radio listener in South Africa now going to pay for the establishment and operation of four 250-kilowatt senders, and for the additional staff that will be required? Or are these senders going to be operated under a special Vote from this House? The policy as far as the S.A.B.C. is concerned, as the Minister has from time to time told us, is that it should meet its own commitments through its revenues, and the revenues of the S.A.B.C. come from sponsored programmes and commercial advertisers and the listerners’ licences, and the S.A.B.C. as a statutory body is expected to balance its books. But in this case we want to know, and I think the listeners of South Africa will want to know, whether they are going to pay for this service by an increase in their licence fees, or will the S.A.B.C. get a special subsidy from the Minister or from the Minister of Foreign Affairs or from the Minister of Information to pay for the additional cost that will obviously be incurred in the operation of these senders. [Time limit.]

I had not intended taking part in this discussion, but now that the hon. member for Turffontein has spoken I would like to say a few words. The proposed plan of the Minister for us to broadcast to the rest of Africa forms but a part of our whole attempt to safeguard ourselves against attacks from outside. The hon. member for Turffontein asked what would be broadcast; who forms the policy and how is it to be financed, and who will be at the head of it?

The first point I want to make is that I can give him the assurance that it will not be of an aggressive nature. What we broadcast will be defensive and in favour of South Africa.

How do you know?

Because I know that a right-minded Government like this will always do the right thing. It will not be of an aggressive or provocative nature. The second thing we will tell the people overseas is that here we have a bastion of security and stability such as is not to be found anywhere else in the world. The third thing we will say is that this stability we have in regard to our Government and our economic stability have been achieved not within the framework of oppressing and suppressing the Opposition, but within the framework of the ordinary working of a democracy. That will be our message. In the fourth place, our broadcasts will be based on telling the world that here we have a bastion where religious freedom is guaranteed to all groups. I am now directing my reply to the things which are being said against us. In the fifth place, I would imagine that these broadcasts will stress the fact that this Government has entrenched peaceful co-existence between all racial groups in this country. Is the Opposition opposed to our broadcasting such a message and to this being the image of our country? In the sixth place, we will correctly be able to use our broadcasting stations to tell the people of Africa that this bastion, which is practically the only remaining one in Africa, is a bastion to which all those people who no longer have any security elsewhere in Africa, who are not assured of their personal freedom or of their possessions, can come and enjoy stability and security and protection. That is the message. What more does the hon. member for Turffontein want? Why should the hon. member put questions which may possibly arouse suspicions? Does the hon. member not welcome it?

But who will bear the responsibility?

I shall come to that. Does the hon. member not welcome the fact that we are now making attempts to make our voice heard to a greater extent beyond our borders? This step which the hon. the Minister is taking forms only part of our attempt to combat this cold war—non-aggressively, defensively. We do not want to wreak vengeance; we just want to state our case positively.

But there is still something further we can say. We can tell the rest of Africa that our internal differences are domestic differences. We shall certainly, in these broadcasts, not interfere with the internal matters of the states to the north of us. The hon. member asks who will be at the head of this. Time will bring the man. This Government has always appointed the right man for all the important bodies in the country; and the same applies to the present head of Radio South Africa, Just as he bears full responsibility in the post he holds and exercises his duties with a great sense of responsibility, so in the same way will the organizational aspect of this matter be placed in the right hands. And in so far as the policy is concerned, that policy will be positively in favour of our fatherland. What more do hon. members want? That is all I want to say in this respect.

Then the hon. member asks who will finance it. I want to tell him this. Just as the people of South Africa are prepared to vote money for our defence, they will also be prepared to pay for this part of our defensive struggle.

I think we are all grateful to the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs for his talk on elementary physics. Those of us who have had any experience of wireless transmission and radio experimenting will know that what he has told us is quite true, and that it was always the dream of experimenters to have a reflector similar to what we have in this modern age, this satellite age. But this item we are discussing involves additional expenditure, and not the technical side of broadcasting. The Minister asks for R35,000. This is really a reflector for television service. That is why it is being welcomed in the world. The Minister has told us that by coming in as a foundation subscriber, as an early bird, we are on the ground floor. We are one of the first subscribers and therefore we shall be privileged in the future. For what will we be privileged? The Minister has not told us. Is he contemplating a television service now, or is this to ensure that in future when we do get a television service we shall have an opportunity to contribute? That is the question that we put to him. I will come to the second item of R140,000. I should like the hon. the Minister to explain whether this is a subsidy for the S.A.B.C.? We are being asked to vote the money. Is it a subsidy? Will it become an annual subsidy; will there be later sums? Because up to the present the S.A. Broadcasting Corporation has been a corporation independent of the Government, as the hon. the Minister has told us. When we have come here with criticism he has told us that it is a matter for the directors: that his function is only to appoint the directors. I should like to know whether it is the intention of the Government now to subsidize the S.A.B.C. If so, the S.A.B.C. should have a representative in this House responsible to the House.

That is my second point. My third point is a much more serious one. We heard the hon. the Minister this afternoon giving us a broadcast from Moscow. Sir, is it not against the law in South Africa to broadcast a communist speech or broadcast?

Give him 90 days.

The hon. the Minister has given a fiery, anti-South African communist speech here this afternoon which will appear in our Hansard and which will appear in our Press. All of them will not say what the origin is, the explanation and the circumstances. and I suggest, Sir. that that part of the Minister’s speech should be expunged from the record of this House. The hon. the Minister of Information would never dream in his “Digest” of giving an example of Moscow broadcasting; he dare not do so, and I think the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs was ill advised to read a broadcast of that kind in this House. I was shocked to hear it.

Are you not ashamed of yourself?

On the contrary, I think the Minister should be ashamed. We have been warned by the Minister of Justice that in no circumstances are we to repeat what these communists say. and here the hon. the Minister comes along and gives publicity to a communist broadcast.

To think that members on your side applaud your remarks! It is childish.

Supposing we were to come to the House and announce what Moscow broadcast this morning about South Africa. We would be ruled out of order; we should be ruled out of order; it would be the correct thing to do. Therefore I think the hon. the Minister should take steps himself to have that portion of his speech deleted from his Hansard.

The hon. the Minister was good enough to reply at length to the question I asked him under Item I, the development of a communication satellite system, and apropos of a reference which I made to a particular report in this morning’s Cape Times, which newspaper the hon. the Minister had read, because he quoted from it, he ended up by saying that I was welcome—and presumably everybody else, too—to receive or pick up the television programmes from Telstar or any other satellite, if I was willing to walk around with an enormous parabolic reflector in my pocket! That is what he said. Surely he heard the statement, because I quoted it; I admit that I paraphrased it because I did not have the paper in front of me, but I quoted the president of the Radio Corporation of America, the biggest company in the world in radio, television and communications systems. He said, among other things, that at some time in the future—he was talking about communications satellites, the very item we are discussing now—people will carry pocket-sized transmitter-receivers that will enable them to “see and speak with any similarly equipped individual anywhere in the world”. Sir, who is talking about an enormous reflector? I am talking about a little pocket-sized television receiver and transmitter. The hon. the Minister side-stepped that completely and laughed it to scorn, as it were, and said that I could walk around with a parabolic transmitter which, if I remember correctly, is about 40 feet in diameter, if I wanted to listen to these programmes. Sir, the hon. the Minister must not try—I say this with great respect because he lavished more time and attention on me in his reply than in all my dreams I hoped a Minister would in this House—to create what was strictly a diversion, but I nonetheless appreciate the loving care that he gave to my question, even if he did side-step it. The hon. the Minister is misleading the House when he deals with this matter so lightly. Ten years ago, if anybody had told this hon. Minister that there would be pocket transistor radios that you could buy for something like R5, with which you can pick up programmes—good, bad and indifferent—from radio stations up to a distance (in this country) of 600 miles, he would have said “that is ridiculous”. But. Sir, here are the authorities on the subject, the people who manufacture these satellite systems telling him, and telling the world, that in a matter of a few years anybody will be able to buy a similar pocket-sized transistorized television receiver and transmitter in one—and the Minister refuses to recognize the fact! While I, for one, am very grateful that through the foresight of the hon. the Minister, South Africa is now a .03 shareholder in Comsat …

.3.

… he must nevertheless be prepared to deal with the consequences of the investment that he has made on behalf of South Africa, and not pretend, ostrich-like, that there will never be television in this country. Sir, I repeat what I said earlier: Whether he or the Government gives us television, whether people buy these sets legally or smuggle them in. there will be television in this country, much sooner than the hon. Minister thinks—and he might as well open his mind to it. The hon. Minister could have given us this information, but he just ignores it, and talks about parabolic reflectors which I have to carry in my pocket—I have difficulty in carrying a cigarette case!

The other point I want to deal with is this: We have asked the hon. the Minister to give us some clue, if not detailed information, on Item S, “running expenses on external radio services”. What is he going to do, and how is he going to run this service? Again, he sidestepped almost all the questions. In fact, he went past them so quickly that he was one of those low-flying satellites that he described to us when he told us the difference between a high-flying satellite and a low-flying satellite. He said that a low-flying satellite—I hope I am even imitating his movements correctly—went past so quickly that one could not do anything about picking up a signal. Well, Sir, we picked up no signal whatsoever from the hon. the Minister’s reply to our questions on Item S. We asked him certain pertinent questions. Some of them were repeated in the last five minutes by the hon. member for Kensington. To refresh the hon. Minister’s mind: Who will control the programmes; who will take the responsibility, financial and otherwise; what will be the content or the material? You know what he told us, Sir? He described the kind of material that we get from Moscow. legally or otherwise—I am not prepared to say—the kind of material that you get from Ghana, from the Voice of America, from the B.B.C.; the only thing he would not tell this Committee is what kind of material he (the Minister) is going to send out on his external radio services with this vote of R140,000. Sir, what kind of debate is this? He says to us, in a very vague way, that external broadcasting will be “onpartydig”; but, Sir, with great respect of the hon. the Minister, we, the public of South Africa, have become seasoned listeners, and we know exactly what “onparty-digheid” means when it is handed over for implementation to the S.A.B.C., because this United Party, which is one of the parties to the argument, political and otherwise in this country, never gets a look-in over the S.A.B.C. in this country—and the hon. the Minister knows that to be true.

When you were asked to be a witness you hid yourself away: you never gave the evidence when you had the opportunity to do so.

Where was this opportunity? Oh well, it does not matter. In view of the fact that there is this unfortunate tendency on the part of this independent corporation, over which no Minister apparently has control, to say exactly what it likes, it is unfortunate that the hon. the Minister should tell us that broadcasts over this external radio service will be what he calls “onpartydig.” It will unfortunately present, as other countries of the world already know South Africa, the worst face of South Africa, because it will seek to present the face of the National Party Government. Surely the hon. the Minister of Information knows exactly what success he has had in presenting the face of the National Party Government to the public of the world.

Yes, Smart Alec!

It is no use calling me names. Sir, this analogy which has been made with other radio communications systems is in most cases completely inaccurate. The hon. the Minister talks about the Voice of America. Surely his colleague, the hon. the Minister of Information knows that the Voice of America which operates under the State Department’s Information Service, is set up under an act called The Smith-Mundt Act. (the two people responsible for it) in terms of which the Voice of America may not beam a single message or programme within the confines of the United States of America. Does the hon. the Minister know that? And here he is combining in the same South African Broadcasting Corporation which we know is not “onpartydig” the systems that will broadcast to the countries of the world an image of South Africa—whether it will be by television or by radio is beside the point at this stage. I think that when he tells us that 630 stations in the world take transcriptions from the S.A.B.C., without giving us any idea what kind of content and material will be used for the transcriptions we are talking about now, it means nothing. The entertainment and the cultural value of these programmes may be very great, but he has not even told us whether our weather broadcasts will be incorporated in these broadcasts to the Continent of Africa. He has not told us what he is going to tell these people. He says, in effect, after speaking for half an hour, that he cannot tell us—and he leaves it to the hon. member for Ventersdorp (Mr. Greyling) to tell us what will be in these programmes. I do not know where he got it from but the hon. member for Ventersdorp told us what would go into these programmes, what their nature would be. And do you know what he said, Sir? I want to know whether the hon. the Minister agreed with that analysis of the content and the nature of the programme because it is his responsibility, not that of the would-be Deputy Minister of Posts and Telegraphs. He said that one of the things that the programme will assure the Continent of Africa about is that here is a refuge, a bastion, a place of safety because of our economy, etc., etc., and this is where people should come if they want this kind of security. He is beaming this kind of programme to a Continent of 230,000,000 Black people. Is he inviting all of them to come to live in South Africa? [Laughter.] What is the use of the hon. member for Cradock (Mr. G. F. H. Bekker) guffawing?; why did he not guffaw when the hon. member for Ventersdorp made that analysis of the external programmes? [Time limit.]

I could not quite follow the argument of the hon. member for Hospital (Mr. Gorshel), who has just sat down, and I am convinced that he could not follow it himself. I noted that his speech did not even make an impression on the hon. member for Transkeian Territories (Mr. Hughes). Therefore it must have been on a very low level. The hon. member’s greatest objection—and I think by this time he is already obsessed with it—is the question of television. I think we must accent that as an additional reason why television should not be introduced within the near future, namely so that the hon. member will still have nightmares about television for a long time; I would welcome that.

That is very unfriendly of you.

I really want to come back to what the hon. member for Kensington (Mr. Moore) said. I want to tell the hon. member for Kensington that I would have expected the type of speech he has just made from the hon. member for Hospital but not from an honoured and senior member of this House like the hon. member for Kensington. The hon. the Minister gave us certain examples of the type of broadcasts directed at Africa from Moscow, and the hon. member for Kensington gets up and says that the Minister’s speech should be struck from the record because it contains communist propaganda. I cannot imagine that the hon. member for Kensington could have been serious. But was the hon. member for Kensington just as concerned when Sam Kahn and all those other people made communist propaganda? Whence his sudden concern now? When a former member of this House, Sam Kahn, gave evidence before the Select Committee and said that he was a Communist, the hon. member and his party still said: “No, you are not a Communist.” Whence his sudden concern now?

But I want to return to the hon. member for Turffontein (Mr. Durrant). The hon. member asked who would now actually determine the policy, who would broadcast, etc. He wants to know now already who will read out those broadcasts. He wants to know everything in the greatest detail. And if I were to give him the names of the people who will read out those broadcasts, I suppose he will want to know who wrote those programmes, what sort of a pen they used and what type of ink. Is it necessary to go into all these finer details to-day? The hon. member wanted to know who would determine the policy. Who determines the policy of the S.A.B.C. to-day?

Tell us.

Cannot the hon. member for Turffontein use the little common sense he has? Who determines the policy of the S.A.B.C. to-day? Of course the S.A.B.C. itself determines it.

No, the Broederbond.

I would have been very concerned if hon. members opposite had determined it. Then I would have been concerned about it, but we have experience of the quality and the high standard of the broadcasts of the S.A.B.C., and I say that we can leave these broadcasts to Africa in the hands of the S.A.B.C. with the greatest confidence.

Then the hon. member for Turffontein goes further and wants to know who will eventually nay for these programmes. The hon. member could just have read this document, the Additional Estimates, and then he would have seen who pays for it; the money comes from the Consolidated Revenue Fund. The hon. member ought to know that. But now he asks who will Day for it. Have you ever heard such a stupid question?

He asks whether the listeners will have to pay.

Yes. Sir, there is one thing about which I am concerned. When the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs spoke here and indicated what type of propaganda is being made in Africa over the radio, something gave me cause for great concern, and that is the levity we experienced from the opposite side of the House. I was watching the hon. member for Drakensberg (Mrs. S. M. van Niekerk) and the hon. member for Hospital and various other members. They listened to this speech by the Minister with a gesture of contempt, with a gesture of sympathy towards those broadcasts directed at Africa. If they themselves abhor the sort of broadcast to which the Minister referred, why did they behave with such levity? If they disapprove of that type of broadcast why did the first member opposite who got up to speak not tell us so in clear language? I now ask them whether they approve of it. Let the hon. member for Hospital or any member opposite tell us whether they approve of that type of broadcast.

What type of broadcast?

The type of broadcast referred to by the Minister, the communist propaganda broadcast over Africa. Do they approve of it?

Of course not.

I am very glad to hear that, but that is not the impression that those hon. members created while the Minister was speaking. They created the impression that they approved of that type of broadcast.

That is unfair.

No, it is not unfair: that was the impression created here. I do not want to accuse the hon. member for Turffontein of saying so deliberately. The least I expect from him is that he should get up in this House and say that the United Party does not associate itself with the impression created here when the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs was speaking. That is the least I expect from him because that is the impression he and his colleagues created in this House.

We are dealing here with two items. The one is a new item of R140,000 which appears here for the first time. Then there is a second item of R35,000 which was regarded as being so urgent that authority was obtained from the State President to provide for it in these Additional Estimates. Sir, what have we really had here? We have had a lecture from the Minister. After the Minister spoke the hon. member for Ventersdorp (Mr. Greyling) got up here and sketched what the contents of these programmes to be broadcast to Africa would be. Thereafter the hon. member for Middelland (Mr. van der Merwe) rose and said that we had listened to the Minister with disapproval while he was reading out this communist propaganda here. How does one look disapproving if a Minister reads communist propaganda in this House? We were shocked that the Minister, instead of replying to the questions we put to him, got up here and read out communist propaganda. The hon. members for Turffontein (Mr. Durrant), Durban (Point) (Mr. Raw) and Hospital (Mr. Gorshel) asked the Minister how this money would be spent; how this programme would be presented; where me personnel would come from to handle these broadcast services. Those were serious questions, but what have we had from the Minister? I made a few notes while the Minister was speaking. He said that we were living in a world of communist propaganda. He made the general statement that we were living in a world of communist propaganda. He spoke about new services abroad which broadcast distorted pictures. Sir, that is far-reaching. To what countries did the Minister refer? He said that all the countries of the world broadcast distorted pictures. He went further and referred to the Voice of America; he referred to what was being broadcast by the B.B.C. The question was pertinently put to him as to who would be in control of this programme to be broadcast to the rest of Africa, but he gave no reply. In the past, when we put questions to the Minister in regard to the S.A.B.C., his replies were simply that he did not know.

Order! That has already been said and the hon. member should not repeat it.

With respect, Sir, I do not believe that it was said in this regard. If we are to accept that the Minister has no control over the S.A.B.C. and has no idea of what is going on, how can he come and ask us here to vote an amount of R140,000 without our knowing what the money will be used for? Ad I have already said, the other item of R35,000 was regarded as being so important that the authority of the State President was obtained to make provision for it in these Additional Estimates. I think we have the fullest right to ask the Minister what the content of these programmes will be, who will arrange them and to whom they will be submitted for approval, because we think that this is a vitally important item, so important that this side of the House has been pleading here for years, particularly the hon. member for Turffontein, that we should render these broadcast services to the rest of Africa and the world. The importance of it was emphasized again and again by the hon. member for Turffontein. The hon. the Minister gets up here and gives us a lecture, which we could only regard as amusing, but he gave us no details as to what will really happen. In my opinion, this is such an important matter that the whole Cabinet should accept joint responsibility for it. We cannot allow to happen in regard to these services what so often happens in regard to the S.A.B.C., viz. that one-sided, and I may almost say distorted, reports are broadcast in regard to what happened in this House and about the speeches made by members elsewhere. All the Minister has told us, the only information he has given us, was that this transmission station of 320 kilowatt would broadcast in eight languages. He said that Afrikaans would be one of those languages. The only Bantu language he mentioned was Swahili. The other languages are Afrikaans, Portuguese, English, etc. Sir, the Minister’s whole attitude in regard to these two items is utterly unsatisfactory. On does not expect a Minister, when important, pertinent questions are put to him, such as we on this side put to him in regard to these two items, to get up and give us a lecture as he did to-day.

I am very pleased that the hon. member who has just sat down dealt with these important aspects, that is to say, the importance of these two items. They are probably the most important items which the Minister has brought before this House for some years, affecting as they do the interests of our country.

The hon. member for Middelland (Mr. van der Merwe) following on something which the hon. member for Ventersdorp (Mr. Grey-ling) said, unfortunately followed the same pattern as the hon. the Minister as far as the S.A.B.C. is concerned. Questions which are put from time to time by the Minister with regard to the S.A.B.C. are replied to by the statement that he is unable to give any information because he does not interfere in the internal affairs of the S.A.B.C.

Order! That point has been made already.

I say that just by way of introduction to what I intend to say. What I would like to know is this: Why is it that newspapers seem to know exactly what the hon. the Minister intends to do and for what purpose he is going to use this external radio service. I would like him to answer this: he must either accept this or reject it, because it appeared in the Press in the Transvaal and in the Cape. The hon. the Minister has not even dealt with this matter. He has neither confirmed or denied these reports. Here is a report which says—

The other point that they make is this—

If it is the intention of the hon. the Minister to ensure that this radio service is going to be used to propagate purely Government propaganda, then the hon. the Minister must tell us that. If the matter is going to be left entirely to the S.A. Broadcasting Corporation and if they are to decide what news will be broadcast, then we would expect an objective picture to go out with regard to South Africa, putting everything in its proper perspective. The hon. the Minister talks about lies which are being broadcast from other stations throughout the world, and I am sure we are not going to follow their example by transmitting lies about our affairs.

You may rest assured on that score.

I do not need to be reassured: I am assured on that point. What we would like to know is what part the Minister, as the voice of the Government, is going to play in respect of the transmission of news and information concerning South Africa. The other aspect that was not dealt with by the hon. the Minister is this, and I think we are entitled to an explanation. He was on a previous occasion challenged by the fact that when we became foundation members of this particular organization with regard to the use of the satellite there was reserved to the Government of South Africa certain television wavelengths so that we would not find ourselves crowded out. A printed report was shown to the hon. the Minister in this House but the hon. the Minister has not replied to that. If that is the case why is the Minister afraid to disclose that it is so. Nobody will take him to task over that. It is the normal, intelligent and sensible thing to do, namely, to reserve wavelengths and other channels of communication for ourselves when we become foundation subscribers to what is obviously going to be a very vital and important service in world radio affairs. We are entitled to information from the Minister on this matter. The hon. the Minister knows very well that it is impossible to put any questions on the Order Paper with regard to the Broadcasting Corporation but in this House he is obliged to answer certain questions. He wants money passed for a particular purpose. Surely this is the time when the House is entitled to know what the Minister’s attitude is, what his policy is and what his purpose is in wishing to spend this money: what is he going to achieve by spending this money? We do not need a lecture from the hon. the Minister as to the value of foreign propaganda. Other countries of the world have been doing it for years. We ourselves have been sitting back and wondering when the policy, the policy that we have no inkling about, is going to be adopted that it is essential for our country to embark on a similar plan. But you cannot get the information because the hon. the Minister says he is not permitted to give it. In fact it is not his business, it is not his concern, to tell the House or the country what the policy of Radio South Africa is. But to come and tell us what other countries are doing does not solve our problem. The hon. the Minister seems to have a considerable amount of information at his finger tips, but we know it all.

I say the hon. the Minister cannot hide behind this old story that it is an independent body. I should like to give him the example of the I.D.C. which is in many senses a similar type of organization. Just we know what is going on there. Their directors talk to the public; their directors talk to industrialists; they have public relation officers. The I.D.C. is an extremely approachable body and many problems are discussed with them. Everyone knows what their policy is. Everyone has seen the benefit of this policy of the I.D.C. There are other similar bodies which this Government supports, bodies like Iscor and so on. But here we have something which is vital to the future of every man, woman and child but the hon. the Minister gives us no information at all. He refuses to do so. I say he cannot refuse to do so in this House. He has no right to come to this House, to ask for the appropriation of money, money which is going to be spent very shortly because the work has been going on according to reports in the Press, and refuse to give us the information asked for. I believe the officials are already inspecting the equipment in Europe. The objective of this item on the Additional Estimates is to provide for expenditure which the hon. the Minister believes will be spent by the end of this month. When the Budget is presented there will obviously be a larger sum to be made available for the expansion of this important service. The hon. the Minister can no longer continue to hide behind what is purely a smokescreen and deny the House information on a matter of vital importance to South Africa and to its people.

We are not going to allow the remarks made by the hon. member for Middelland (Mr. van der Merwe) to go unanswered. The hon. member accused this side of the House a few moments ago of encouraging and cheering anti-South African propaganda disseminated in this House and rediffused by the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs. The hon. member for Middelland accused us of encouraging and applauding and getting comfort out of that propaganda. In his absence I hope his colleagues who are here will tell him that we on this side of the House have never glued our ears to Zeesen to get spiritual feeling when it comes to foreign propaganda.

Order! The hon. member must confine himself to the reasons for the increase.

Mr. Chairman, we are asked to vote money for an external radio service. And the member for Middelland accused this side of the House of supporting external radio services attacking South Africa. My point was that it was not this side of the House that had done that but supporters on the other side of the House who had done that. We on this side of the House deplore and take the strongest exception to anti-South African propaganda which is distorted, twisting and lying. We, as much as anyone else in South Africa, resent and will do everything in our power to counteract false propaganda against South Africa. Therefore we are not opposed to a service which is going to put a fair point of view. What we are concerned with, Sir, and what this Minister refuses to tell this House, is by whose hands will the direction of the material disseminated through that service be controlled? The Minister of Foreign Affairs has been sitting here; the Minister of Information has been sitting here. We have appealed to both of them; we have appealed to the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs. Whose service is this going to be? Is it going to be the service of the South African Government speaking and broadcasting on behalf of the Government or the service of an independent broadcasting corporation? Until we get an answer to that the Minister has no right to expect that we will vote him this money. We cannot be asked to vote money for a service unless we know whose service it is going to be: That of the Government, of the Corporation, of the Foreign Office, of the Information Department or Posts and Telegraphs? It does not say to whom this money is being paid. Is this being paid from Consolidated Revenue to the S.A.B.C.? That is the question. The Minister of Posts and Telegraphs is apparently not interested; he is preparing a speech for the next “stryddag” where he is going to talk about assegais and stabbing the Whites in the back. May I appeal to the Minister of Finance. May I ask the Minister of Finance for his attention for a moment. I wish to ask the Minister of Finance, failing an answer from the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs, whether item S, under Vote 34, is to be paid to the S.A.B.C. or will be spent and administered by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs? It is a question to which we are entitled to have an answer. I trust the Minister of Finance will give us an answer to that question. The reason why we are so concerned with this, Sir, arises from the incredible speech by the hon. member for Ventersdorp (Mr. Greyling). Talking of a service designed to improve South Africa’s image in Africa, inter alia, in a country of independent Black states, he said this service was going to be used to tell the inhabitants of those Black states that this was a safe haven for the White man, a country where the White man’s possessions and security would be safe and where people lived together in harmony. This is the service which is going to be beamed to Africa. A Government member says this service will be used to tell African states, Black states, that South Africa is a paradise for the White man and that this is the only place in Africa where the White man is safe! That, Sir, is on record in a speech from that side of the House and I believe the responsible Minister should repudiate the hon. member for Ven-tersorp in the interests of the good name of South Africa. We cannot have that sort of story going out to the world; we cannot tell the rest of Africa, through this service, that it is only here in South Africa where there is any home for a White man. It is irresponsible and I hope one of the Ministers will repudiate that statement.

But the hon. member for Ventersdorp went further. He said this service was going to propagate Government policy. He spoke of the pattern of separate development and different racial communities living in peace and harmony next to each other. This service was a propagate Government policy. We know that for instance, the Department of Information prints propaganda which is handed over to the Nationalist Party office as election propaganda. That is happening to-day in Durba A Nationalist Party office is using Government Information propaganda to propagate the caught of an election! Is this going to happen to this service? Is it going to become a Government propaganda service. According to this Vote, we are voting money for external purposes; is going to be used as the money we vote for Information is being used in Durban at the very moment to propagate the cause of a election?

You are talking nor sense.

The hon. member for Heilbron says I am talking nonsense. I can tell him that if he goes into the Nationalist Party office in Umlazi or Umhlatuzana to-day and ask for a pamplet on Government Native policy he will be given a pamphlet printed with money voted by this House for external propaganda by the Department of Information [Interjections.] That is a fact. We want an assurance from this Minister that that abuse of money voted by us to further the interests of South Africa is not going to happen in this case.

We also want to know whether this service is going to be beamed to the Transkei and to Zulustan and to Tswanaland? Are they going to be part of the service which is going to be beamed from this external radio or is this radio to be designed solely for countries beyond the borders of existing South Africa? Because again, Sir, the pattern of what is sent out by this radio becomes important when we know to whom it is going to be directed. To Swaziland? To the protectorates? To our new colonies, the embryo Bantu states in South Africa or to the rest of Africa? These are all questions to which we are entitled to an answer. So I ask the Minister of Finance to give us the information from the financial aspect and the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs to give attention to this debate and to tell us the details regarding control over the programmes to be disseminated through this foreign radio service.

I just want to reply briefly. It is quite clear that this money is being voted and paid over to the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Any expenditures submitted to them by the S.A.B.C. will be defrayed by the Department from those funds. They paid over the money to the S.A.B.C. as it is being spent.

This money is intended for the S.A.B.C.?

Yes.

In view of the spirit of frivolity in which hon. members on the other side have dealt with this matter, I do not know whether they really want me to reply to questions or whether their only object is to be abusive. There is not a single question to which I have refused to reply. I said that if I had overlooked anything hon. members must simply draw my attention to it and that I would then deal with it. It was not necessary for hon. members opposite to raise the hullabaloo which they did here. There is nothing to hide; everything is being done quite openly. Sir, certain questions were put to me which are reasonable and in respect of which hon. members are entitled to a reply. One such question was, “Who is to pay for this?” Perhaps I did not state the position clearly enough. Hon. members on this side have pointed out that the mere fact that this item appears in the Estimates indicates that the cost will be defrayed from the Consolidated Revenue Fund, that the Treasury will pay for it. The fact that this item appears in the Estimates shows that rot the S.A.B.C. but the State will pay this amount. As the hon. the Minister of Finance pointed out a moment ago, this amount is being paid over to the Department of Posts and the Post Office will give an account of the purpose for which it is used.

Who will pay for future

services?

That is quite a fair question. The agreement is this: Just as the B.B.C. acts on behalf of the British Government, so the S.A.B.C. will provide this service on behalf of the South African Government. The S.A.B.C. will incur the costs and the Government of South Africa will determine up to what amount the S.A.B.C. may incur costs. The Government will then pay that amount. This amount, as I have told hon. members, is the amount which is going to be spent this year already.

The hon. member wanted to know what would be the contents of these transmissions.

Who is going to control the programmes?

Let me first deal with the question as to what the content is going to be. The content of all broadcasting services is the same, that is to say, news, music, talks, an outline of conditions in various countries, and perhaps also weather reports. All propaganda services do the same thing. Even though this is not a propaganda service but a service which will simply reflect conditions in South Africa, that will probably be the content of the programmes; in other words, the programmes will contain those things which the listener would like to hear.

May I ask a question? Is this going to be a propaganda service or is it simply going to be a factual representation?

As I have said, we want to refrain from making propaganda; we simply want to give a factual representation of our way of life in South Africa. As I have tried to explain to hon. members, things are so good in South Africa that it is not necessary to make propaganda for South Africa. We will simply tell the outside world what South Africa is like, how South Africa feels, how we behave towards one another; that will be sufficient.

The hon. member for Drakensberg (Mrs. S. M. van Niekerk) wants to know who is going to draw up these programmes. They will naturally be drawn up by experts who are going to be appointed to the staff of the S.A.B.C. The S.A.B.C. will exercise control over those experts. But the agreement between the Government and the S.A.B.C, of course, will be that the programmes must be in accordance with the policy of the country The Government will see to it, of course, that the policy of the country is carried out and that Communism, for example, is not propagated.

I come now to the point which really underlies the thinking of hon. members opposite. They want one answer only. They want us on this side to say that the Government is going to control everything that is broadcast; that the Government is going to draw up every programme. The whole intention of the Opposition, in attacking the S.A.B.C. and in attacking this service, is to discredit it in advance. They know that if the world knows that a broadcasting service is impartial, unprejudiced and faithful to the truth, that broadcasting service in due course builds up a reputation for itself and that in due course it wields great influence. Hon. members opposite are doing everything in their power to try to create the false impression that the Government is going to control this service, that it is going to be used for Government purposes in order to benefit the Government, so that they can discredit all our efforts to publicize the good name of South Africa to the outside world. That is their motive. [Interjections.] Was it not the hon. member for Turffontein (Mr. Durrant) who said that they had always been aware of the dangers of Communism? Was it not the hon. member for Kensington (Mr. Moore) who made a speech here of which one can only feel ashamed?

Order! Will the hon. member for Moorreesburg please resume his seat.

The hon. member for Kensington went out of his way once again to talk about Communism and Communism only. Sir, can they talk about Communism? Are they not the people who during the war years, when they were in power, as Eddy Roux tells us, released all the communists from gaol after the police had arrested them? Yes, that is what Eddy Roux, as communist leader, tells us in his book. Is the hon. member for Kensington not one of those persons who voted against the Suppression of Communism Act? Are hon. members opposite not the people who voted that Sam Kahn should be allowed to remain in Parliament? Is the hon. member for Kensington not the person who voted that Carneson should not be expelled from the Provincial Council? Are hon. members opposite not the people who voted against the 90-day clause?

Are those the things that you are going to broadcast?

That is their record, and to-day they are the people who are worried about Communism.

The hon. member for Hospital (Mr. Gorshel) demanded in a frivolous speech that I reply to his question. I do so gladly.

I did not demand it.

The hon. member asked how I could contradict one of the great world experts, a world expert who said that within ten years every person would be able to walk around with a television set and listen in. Sir, that is not impossible. But how is it going to work? Let me tell the hon. member. If one wants to listen in to television—and this was not mentioned by this person—it will only be possible to do so if one has a large parabolic reflector which will be able to pick up, amplify and re-transmit the weak signals which come over the ether. Then only it may perhaps be possible. The hon. member, however, makes no reference to that important link and he creates the impression that I am going to be instrumental in bringing about television in South Africa. Mr. Chairman, that suggestion comes so close to being frivolous that one really does not know whether one should even take notice of these arguments.

The hon. member for Drakensberg thought that she could get in a very good dig against us by saying “This money was so urgently needed that they even had to go so far as to get a special warrant from the State President.”

I said that it was so extremely important.

Does the hon. member not know what a special warrant from the State President means?

I know.

If she knows what it means, why then did she say such an unfortunate thing?

It is a matter of urgency.

The hon. member still does not know. A warrant from the State President is obtained when an item appears on the Estimates for the first time. That is what it means, but the non. member comes here and makes such a ridiculous statement. Will hon. members please tell me if there is any question to which I have not replied?

Is television going to be considered via Telstar?

I have explained with great care that the whole object is to be able to link up with the telecommunications system of the world—perhaps in the future. The object is to link up with the telecommunications system, not with television. The necessity to have communications with the world is increasing so rapidly that the channels that we can get over Early Bird will be totally inadequate.

I would not have risen again had it not been for what I can only describe as the deplorable attitude adopted by the Minister in answering a few simple questions in regard to an issue which is of considerable importance as far as our country is concerned in its relationship with the rest of the African continent. I can only deplore the cynicism with which the Minister has attempted to play politics across the floor of the House by accusing this side of propagating communistic views and attempting to bring this new service into complete discredit before it has even started.

When I initiated this discussion I made it quite clear that it was the attitude of this side of the House that we considered a service of this nature an important and necessary service in the national interest. Hansard teems with references as to when we have discussed this very issue with the Minister year after year advocating a more positive and powerful service. Yet. the hon. the Minister has the gall here this afternoon to rise in his seat and make accusations which he knows are completely untrue.

Order! The hon. member can not say the Minister knows it is completely untrue.

I withdraw the word “knows”, sir.

No, the hon. member must withdraw the whole expression.

I withdraw that observation, Sir, and say that the hon. the Minister was fully aware, when he made that statement, that that was not the attitude of this side of the House; that we are in fact anxious to see an objective service presented by way of radio to the peoples of Africa of conditions in our country. Our object in this discussion is to try to get some objective analysis from the hon. the Minister in regard to this very service and the manner in which it is being initiated. You see, Sir, the facts of the matter are these. The Minister has never availed himself of an opportunity to make a statement in this House. We have had to glean this information from other sources before this debate ever started on this important matter. Had we not raised it across the floor of this House we would probably not have had anything from the Minister at all. I raised the matter in an objective manner and the Minister rose in his seat, ignored all the questions put to him and read out a prepared speech which in no way dealt with the questions we had asked.

Let me deal with the Minister’s reply. The Minister has now made it clear—I hope the Minister will pay attention; we are prepared to go on until he gives us satisfactory answers: let me make that quite clear to him—that the financing of the original installation, the purchase of these four transmitters, will come from Central Government funds. The hon. the Minister has made it further clear that the expenses connected with the operation of these transmitters will be borne by a separate vote under Posts and Telegraphs. In other words, none of the existing finances of the S.A.B.C. will be used to conduct this service. I hope that is a correct interpretation of what the Minister has told us. Because if that is so then an important national service is being conducted on behalf of our country. I want to ask the Minister whether the annual report of the S.A.B.C., the report which in terms of the Act has to be Tabled in this House by the Minister, contain any information at all on the activities of this service and the nature of its programmes. I think that is a fair question to place before the hon. Minister, seeing that we will have no longer the argument from the hon. the Minister when we criticize this service that he cannot give us an answer because it is done by the S.A.B.C., because we are dealing with a service operated under a direct Vote by this House.

Then I would like the hon. Minister to enlarge on one other aspect. The Minister says that the programmes will be conducted to present a true picture of what is South Africa, and that it will be conducted on a directive to the S.A.B.C. as to what is National policy by the Government. I think we should analyze that statement, because are we to presume from what the Minister says there that the hon. the Minister as the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs, responsible for the S.A.B.C., will in respect of what is put out over this external service, will give a directive to the S.A.B.C. as to the nature of the policy to be adopted in respect of what is broadcast over these services. We know that in regard to our existing services the Board of Governors of the S.A.B.C. hold and maintain full responsibility for whatever is broadcast internally in our country. We know that in respect of internal programmes there are separate committees in each centre which are entitled to advise the S.A.B.C. in respect of the nature of the programmes. But there is no committee in this case. The sole responsibility in this case will rest with the hon. the Minister. I therefore would like to ask the hon. Minister to give me a direct answer to-day, because this matter will undoubtedly be discussed further in the future: Is he assuming as Minister of Posts and Telegraphs direct responsibility in giving policy directives to the S.A.B.C. as to the nature of the service that will be conducted by this external service?

There is one other point I want to make before I sit down. It is obvious that any radio service has a listener appeal by the nature of the content of the service, the music or otherwise. Now I would remind you, Sir, that the Minister pointed out last year, in this House, that he could not get enough Bantu licensed listeners and that the Bantu services were having a very poor listenership.

Who said so?

The Minister told us that the Board of Directors complained about the small increase in Bantu listeners’ licences. Surely the Minister knows that. The Minister asked for R500,000 to conduct the Bantu Radio Service because he could not find enough licensed listeners to pay for the service, and therefore he had to come to this House to get a subsidy for these particular radio services. The question is: Why is that so? I will give the hon. Minister the answer, and he must well know that that is so. The plain fact of the matter is that the Ghana Radio, to which the Minister made reference to-day, has one of the biggest listenerships amongst Bantu in South Africa in the northern areas. I do not know whether the hon. Minister has ever tuned into Ghana Radio, but if he turns around the dials of his radio set at 8 o’clock or half past eight at night, he will find there is almost perfect reception from Ghana in our country, and a large percentage of Native listeners in our country are listening daily to the Ghana radio service. Why? Not because of the talk and the message and the propaganda that is put over this service—I have listened to quite a few of these broadcasts—but because of the nature of the music that is played, the entertainment offered by that particular service. It has an appeal to the Natives, to the Bantu listener. Therefore I make the point that if we hope to reach any wide listenership amongst the people of Africa, then obviously this service must be of such a nature, it must have such entertainment value, as to have a listener appeal, so that when objective talks and facts are presented about our country, if an objective picture is presented of South Africa, there will be a listenership that will be listening and getting this information in an objective fashion from our South African Radio External Service. Unless the entertainment offered on that service will be of such a nature that it has a listeners’ appeal, in my submission we will be wasting money. I hope that the hon. the Minister now will rise and give us additional information in regard to the points I have mentioned.

The information that we have received from the hon. the Minister has left us in the dark in respect of, I think, one particular issue, and that is this: The external radio service that we are now contemplating must be based on some sort of a survey of the habits of those in Africa who the Minister hopes are going to listen to these broadcasts. If that is so, I think the hon. Minister will find that there are usually peak hours when the opportunity presents itself to listeners to tune in, and the information that I have, and I think it is general, is that in many of the African countries to-day at those peak hours the programmes that are found to be attractive are television programmes. That being the case, it would appear that the hon. Minister has not only got to overcome the problem as far as listenership is concerned in competition with services which have been established a Jong time, but he has also got to overcome the attraction of a television service in these areas which he hopes to penetrate. Now the question I put to the Minister is this: If he finds that the message that he is trying to put across to these African countries is not getting across because at the peak hours the listeners tune in to television, will he then go into the question of a television service to counter the television services which are being provided by other countries in their propaganda work in Africa?

May I first reply to the question put by the hon. member for Umhlatuzana (Mr. Eaton). He will remember that you cannot transmit television over shortwave but over the ultra shortwave, even shorter than the frequency we use for the F.M. system. In other words, according to existing standards there is no question of sending television over the air for a distance probably not further than the eye can see.

With the assistance of Tel-star.

The hon. member refuses to understand what I am trying to explain, namely, that the ordinary man cannot pick up anything from Telstar. That is impossible. You can only pick it up if the Government of the country or another big undertaking in the country has a tremendously big parabolic reflector to pick up those television signals, strengthen them and re-transmit them. One country cannot, therefore, broadcast television in the area of another country.

The other point raised by him is very significant, of course, namely that when you broadcast to people you must know which times, which languages and which subjects suit them. But then the hon. member must not forget either, as I have tried to explain, that this service will not be a service to the masses. It is simply impossible to have a service for the masses. As I have tried to explain, you first have the question of languages, the 2,000 languages and dialects, and it is simply impossible to broadcast in all those languages. You may perhaps be able to broadcast in the language of a specific group but it will be impracticable to do so for the masses. In other words you have to concentrate on selected leaders and it becomes important that you know what the habits and reactions of those leaders in the various countries are. That is of course why we have our contacts and why we have had surveys taken over Africa. We know which groups are the leaders and we know what their habits are, their radio reception times and their languages. It is no good broadcasting to five or ten persons in Hausa; we know it is no good broadcasting to a few people in Arabic; we know we have to broadcast in certain specific languages. We have chosen Swahili but for the others we have chosen the Lingua Franquas, the languages which all the leaders there will understand. As far as the Congo is concerned French is the indicated language to reach the leaders.

The hon. member for Turffontein (Mr. Durrant) said Ghana had a very large number of listeners.

No, I said a very large number of Bantu in the northern areas of South Africa listened in to the Ghana radio.

Yes, but I must remind the hon. member that Ghana broadcasts on shortwave. We in South Africa broadcast to our Bantu population on F.M-, a very high frequency. We are, therefore, broadcasting on entirely different bands from Ghana. The people who use our radios have to have a special apparatus fitted to their sets or have special sets for shortwave otherwise they cannot get Ghana. I am afraid the hon. member’s in-formation differs from mine. From the nature of things shortwave sets are being used but the majority of the sets the people in the Northern Transvaal have are sets with an ultra shortwave, F.M. sets, and they cannot pick up Ghana.

Many have these sets.

Very few. The majority of the sets used by the Bantu to-day are F.M. sets. I do not therefore think that the hon. member’s facts are 100 per cent in agreement with my facts or with reality.

The hon. member is quite right when he says we are dealing here with a new vote and a new principle. The S.A.B.C. acts here as the agent of the Central Government to introduce this shortwave service. The Government of the country will carry the costs and from the nature of things hon. members are quite justified in discussing the matter in this House because the State is incurring this expenditure.

Do you accept responsibility for the policy laid down for this specific service?

From the nature of things I shall have to accept that responsibility because I am the representative of the Government in this case and the Government will be able to step in if it wishes to because it is a service which it is delegating to its agent. The Government can interfere any minute but I know the Government is not anxious to interfere. The Government wants the facts of South Africa to be broadcast. The Government is not desirous of having a propaganda service. For this reason it will be a factual service, a service which will give a true picture of South Africa.

The hon. member for Ventersdorp (Mr. Greyling) talked about a paradise.

Yes. the hon. member said South Africa was a paradise and many people agree with him, therefore, if you give a true picture of South Africa it will be a picture of a paradise in that sense.

The hon. member for Turffontein may be interested to know that the Bantu are very enthusiastic listeners to our Bantu service. It is astounding how anxious they are. They are acquiring radios on a tremendous scale and to-day the possession of a radio to listen in to Radio Bantu has practically become a symbol of status to them. That is contrary to what the hon. member has said, namely, that the Bantu do not want to listen in. The reverse is the position. The hon. member did not have his facts quite right. The hon. member said I complained last year that there were not enough listeners and he subsequently qualified it by saying “licensed” listeners. There is a big difference between a listener and a licensed listener. Our problem has always been that we could not get the Bantu to pay for their licences.

To-day they cannot purchase a radio without a licence.

At that time you could buy a radio set without a licence and that happened on a large scale. My complaint in this House was that many Bantu purchased sets and that we could not get them to take out licences. That was why we had to amend the Act so that every person who purchased a radio set had to pay the licence at the same time. That was the point. In other words, I said just the opposite to what the hon. member maintained here to-day. I said there were many Bantu listeners but that we had to force them to pay their licence fees. Therefore where the hon. member says the Bantu are not satisfied with Radio Bantu I think I can say that there has never yet been anything which has attracted the Bantu as much as Radio Bantu. This service has an astonishingly big influence when it comes to the question of disseminating knowledge, goodwill and the good understanding of the White man and I think we are already indebted to Radio Bantu.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote No. 35,—“Health”, R468,300.

Under sub-head K “Medical Poor Relief” there is an additional amount of R120,000, and would the Minister be good enough to give us some of the details in that connection?

The additional amount is due to the fact that it was necessary to increase the provision to meet the continued increased demand by indigents for these services. In addition the increase is also, to a certain extent, caused by the fact that full-time district surgeons in all the big centres and part-time district surgeons in certain areas issued prescriptions on local chemists, and the demand for these services has increased. It is constantly increasing to such an extent that this additional amount has been found necessary.

Sir, under sub-head P there is an additional amount of R1,300 to be voted for “Grants-in-aid for the Suid-Afrikaanse Noodhulpliga, the South African Red Cross Society and the St. John Ambulance Brigade”. Presumably this amount is divided equally between the three organizations concerned.

Order! The hon. member must confine himself to asking the reasons for the increase.

I do not want to press the point. I want to ask the reason for this increase in the light of the known increase in the activities …

Order! The hon. member may only ask the reasons for the increase.

The increase arises from the fact that an amount of R1,500 is annually granted to the Red Cross Society as compensation for expenditure incurred by them on behalf of the Department, expenditure on propaganda, the printing of pamphlets, posters, etc. In the past year they incurred expenditure which now appears to be R1,300 more than the usual subsidy they receive. Consequently, the Department has thought fit because of the services rendered to pay them this additional amount.

Sir, am I entitled to ask the hon. Minister whether in view of the additional burden placed on these organizations by civil defence requirements …

No, the hon. member is not entitled to put that question.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote No. 38,—“Agricultural Economics and Marketing (General)”, R2,424,700,

With regard to Vote No. 38, may I ask the hon. Minister if he could give us the reasons for the increase particularly under D (1) “Subsidy on Fertilizers including loss on sale of Guano”? The additional amount to be voted is R1,297,900. Then also under G. “Assistance to egg industry”, this is a new item, covering R100,000. Could the hon. Minister give us further information in regard to that item?

As far as the additional amount for fertilizer is concerned, including the loss on guano, the increase is due mainly to a normal increase in the utilization of fertilizers and possibly also to an increase in the sales of fertilizers before 31 December 1964. It is also due to the railway rebate on fertilizers which will be paid as from January 1965, out of subsidies from the Consolidated Revenue Fund. So much with regard to that item.

With regard to the new provision in connection with the egg industry I should like to point out that the egg industry had received no assistance in the past and that the stabilization fund of the egg industry was pretty well exhausted as a result of the enormous losses suffered on the export of our eggs in the past. The Egg Board had to make an adjustment in this connection as a result of the difficult position in England and Europe where the egg market had collapsed, and this adjustment was of such a nature that it brought about a reduction in price. The Government then decided to make available R300,000 to the Egg Board, specifically for the purpose of a propaganda campaign which the Egg Board wanted to launch to encourage the consumption of more eggs in South Africa. This amount was spread over three years and R100,000 has been made available for this purpose each year. This propaganda was necessary because it was necessary to encourage the consumption of eggs particularly amongst the Bantu who had consumed very few eggs in the past. I can tell the House that this campaign has been very successful and that the consumption has already increased enormously.

Can the hon. Minister tell us what the extent is of the loss of guano?

I have already replied to that.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote No. 40.—“Defence”, R1,932,

Could the hon. Minister please explain the reasons for the ex gratia payment to Messrs. M. M. T. Contractors, Welkom? It is a new item covering R1,932.

Provision had to be made for our private siding at Lenz. Tenders were asked and we received three tenders, the highest for R69,045 and the lowest for R36,505. The lowest was the tender of Messrs. M. M. T. Contractors. They tendered for the use of second-hand sleepers, but when they had to make the construction they found there were no second-hand sleepers available, and they used new sleepers. Our consulting engineers agreed that no second-hand sleepers were available, and allowed them to use new sleepers. That is the extra amount that we are paying them ex gratia. It still means that after the ex gratia payment their tender is still 25 per cent lower than the next lowest.

I accent the hon. Minister’s explanation that with the addition to it, it is still the lowest tender, but this again discloses a policy which is somewhat disquieting. We find that tenders having been accented, something that the tenderer should obviously have satisfied himself on before he committed himself to do the job, is found to be wanting and then the State makes un the loss. Surely if the tenderer tendered on the basis of using second-hand sleepers, it was an elementary precaution for him to take before committing himself finally, to make sure that he was able to get the material and that he would have the secondhand sleepers to work with. As we remarked in respect of another vote yesterday, it does open the door for quite a lot of playing around with fixed tenders. In a sense it destroys the value of the tender system altogether when the successful contractor on the lowest figure, later has his price adjusted after the job is finished. It could put him in a position more favourable than what was occupied by his competitors. I think the system is entirely wrong, unless there is something really exceptional—acts of God, weather conditions, changes in policy which develop—something really exceptional which interferes with the basis on which the original tender was submitted. This system of granting ex gratia payments should be treated with the greatest of caution.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote No. 43,—“Coloured Affairs”, R1,943,000,

In connection with

Item “T” I should like to inquire of the Minister whether these colleges have been completed and why this extra amount is being asked for. What progress has been made with these colleges? Then there is another amount under “U—Payment to the Transhaven Seaside School, Durban”. I should like to inquire of the Minister what the policy in regard to this matter is, and whether seaside schools are to be built for Coloured children.

As far as “U” is concerned it is a school which has always been subsidized by the Transvaal Provincial Administration. It is an existing school and when the Department took over Coloured education it had to undertake that responsibility because we had given the undertaking that we would take over the responsibilities which the provinces had already accepted.

There are a number of reasons for “T”. The first is that when the Department took over Coloured Education the Department itself had to make provision for certain amounts for which the Department of Public Works had formerly made provision. Secondly, we had to make special provision for the erection of a sports pavilion at the University college and further financial assistance to Fort Hare for the training of Coloured students who were still there to finish their courses.

I was going to ask the same questions as the hon. member for Hillbrow (Dr. Steenkamp), but I would now like to ask the Minister about “S”, grants-in-aid to educational and sports organizations, whether that is in conformity with the list of applications already received …

Order! The hon. member may merely ask the reasons for the increase; he cannot suggest the reasons.

May I then ask whether the amount of R1,750 is due to additional applications?

Order!

The increase is due to the fact that there is a periodical on physical culture which was formerly made available to the provinces by the Department of Education, Arts and Science. After Coloured Education was taken over it was regarded as essential that this periodical be made available also by the Department of Coloured Affairs.

I wonder whether the

Minister could give the reasons for the increase under Lem “F”, child welfare, where the increase is the considerable sum of R458,000?

Firstly, it is for State places of safety and detention, R4,000, and secondly, for private places of safety and detention, R5,000. It was intended to establish a place of safety and detention in existing buildings in Benoni during the course of the 1963-4 financial year, and provision for the initial equipment was accordingly made in the Estimates for that year. But due to unforeseen delays in converting the building, the institution could not be opened during 1963-4 and therefore the equipment was not purchased during that year. The institution will, however, be opened shortly and the necessary equipment must be purchased now. No provision for this purpose was made in the Main Estimates for the current financial year, and an additional amount of R4,000 is therefore now being asked for. Then in view of the fact that children are committed to places of safety and detention by order of court, it is not possible to make an accurate estimate of the amount required in respect of this service. Based on actual expenditure during the 1963-4 financial year the expenditure would have been accounted for to date. During the current financial year it was, however, estimated that an additional amount would be required for that purpose, and based on the actual increase in the number of beneficiaries over the last five years provision was made in the Main Estimates for maintenance grants of 10,000 beneficiaries. It now appears that this number was grossly underestimated and actually amounted to 11,900. These are mainly the reasons.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote No. 46.—“Justice”, R48,000.

I should like to ask the Minister to give us full information in respect of Item “E”, the ex gratia payment to Janet Pholo and two children, and also in regard to the maintenance of mechanical recording equipment. Can the hon. the Minister tell us what progress has been made …

Order! The hon. member must ask for the reasons for the increase.

As far as “E” is concerned the hon. member will remember that I indicated last session already that an ex gratia payment would be made to the widow of the person who died as a result of the Bultfontein tragedy. The hon. member also knows that during this Session, in reply to a question by the hon. member for Houghton, I said that we had come to an agreement in this connection and that the amount of R3,000 had been arrived at and would be paid out if and when Parliament approved of this item. This amount has been determined by the State Attorney on the ordinary principles, namely, the earning capacity of the deceased and his expectancy of life as well as that of the widow According to normal principles it is based on his salary and life expectancy and that amount came to R3,000.

I thank the Minister and I just want to say that we approve of the action taken. In the circumstances that was the correct thing to do but I hope the matter will not be forgotten because further assistance may be needed.

Will the Minister explain the reasons for the increase in item “K”, where the fees and expenses of assessors have increased by R20,000?

I must still reply to the other question of the hon. member for Germiston (District) (Mr. Tucker). The hon. member will remember that for many years, as far as I can remember, assessors’ fees were £5 5s. 0d. They are professional people who are called upon to act as assessors and they are busy for days on end against payment of the insignificant fee of £5 5s. 0d. Hon. members will also know from experience that in recent times most of our criminal cases are no longer heard by jury and advocates and other legally trained people, professors and so forth are called upon by the judges to act as assessors. That is why I thought it right to approach Treasury to increase this fee which is R10.50 in our present coinage, to R21 and Treasury has approved of it. I think it is right and reasonable that professional people receive better remuneration. It does not yet compensate them for the time they spend in the service of the State but in that way the State at least shows its appreciation of their services.

As far as the other question of the hon. member for Germiston (District) is concerned, the hon. member knows that we are mechanizing more and more in the taking down of evidence and we are doing so with great success. The increase in this item is due to that.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote No. 48.—“Police”, R36,365.

Will the hon. the Minister please give us full details regarding item “J” R11,365.

The position in this case is that towards the end of 1963 a certain person, the husband of the widow mentioned here, was arrested in connection with a diamond transaction. For the sake of these remaining behind I do not want to go into the whole matter, but in the process of escaping he was shot dead by the detective in charge of the case. There was a proper inquest. Feelings ran very high there at the time and the inquest was held here in Cape Town and the court found that the police official who fired the shot was not guilty of culpable homicide. But in spite of that the State Attorney felt that in view of the position of the widow who had an invalid child, amongst others, and who was in a very difficult position it was a case, for humanitarian reasons, on the one hand, and because of the circumstances of the case on the other hand, where an ex gratia payment should be made.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Vote No. 51.—“Foreign Affairs”

R249,000,

I shall be glad if the hon. the Minister can give us some information in regard to Item “A”, where there is an increase of R126,000 in salaries, wages and allowances, and in regard to Item “G” where there is a considerable increase of R62,000 for office premises. Then there is also Item “K”, where there is an increased payment of R34,000 to UN. I should like to have full details.

As far as head “A” is concerned it falls into four categories. This amount is required in order to pay additional salaries which have resulted because of the increase in the personnel from 599 posts in 1963-4 to 616 in 1964-5. This section is responsible for R32,000. I might just explain that these posts are mainly overseas and that they have become necessary as a result of increased activities particularly in regard to the implementation of our immigration policy and increased commercial activity. The staff has mainly been recruited overseas. Secondly there is an amount of R38,000 under the head “Overseas Salaries and Allowances”. In this respect I must explain that our overseas personnel receive a so-called overseas service salary which consists in the main partly of basic salary and allowances. In determining these allowances the cost of living in the various countries is taken into account. That fluctuates in the various countries and it is not always possible to determine what it is beforehand. The additional amount required because of this is R38,000. Thirdly, an amount of 52,000 is required in respect of locally recruited staff; clerks, typists, messengers, and chauffeurs are recruited locally overseas and we try to keep their salaries as near as possible to the salaries paid in the country concerned. The salaries are revised from time to time to bring them into line with local salaries. This is the amount which is required to augment those salaries. It is difficult of course to estimate in advance what will be required in each individual country. Then there is an amount of R4,000 required for miscellaneous purposes, unforeseen expenditure such as, for example, when people are transferred and fluctuations in the rate of exchange etc. The hon. member also asked about the office sites. An additional amount of R16,499 is required in Cologne. It is really the second time we have to vote this amount because it was voted on a previous occasion but the particular building for which we needed it was not completed in time and the money was consequently not paid out. Fresh provision must accordingly be made for the amount of R12,499. The costs for lighting, water, etc. were also under-estimated and an additional amount of R1,000 must be voted for that.

Provision must also be made for a further amount of R3,000 for renovating the premises we are vacating. It is a condition of the lease that when such a building is vacated it has to be renovated. An amount of R3,000 has already been voted for this purpose and it has to be voted a second time because it could not be spent this year. As far as Washington is concerned the chancellery has had to be rebuilt and contrary the explanation I gave previously I have to explain that the building was actually completed sooner than anticipated. Originally a nominal amount was provided for additional furniture and equipment. We now need an amount of R30,473 which includes furniture, lighting, heating, maintenance, etc. We have also acquired new office accommodation at Bern, The Hague, Brussels, New York, and unforeseen expenditure for furniture, equipment, lighting, water, heating, cleaning, etc., amounts to R9,517. We have also had additional expenditure at Montreal and Tokyo. Our mission in Tokyo moved into new offices in December 1963 and the requirements as far as furniture, equipment, lighting, etc., were concerned could not be determined in advance when the estimates were made for 1964-5. It has now been determined that an additional amount of R2,321 will be required in order to partition various rooms. That could not be foreseen.

We have moved our Trade Commissioner’s office in Canada from Ottawa to Montreal where new offices have had to be furnished. It was not possible to foresee these requirements and the amount involved is R2,444. Urgent unforeseen repairs had also to be done to the chancellery in Madrid and this amounted to R1,108. There have however been savings so that the actual amount required is R796.

The hon. member also asked for an explanation of “K”. In this connection I must explain that this additional amount has come about as a result of the different method of budgeting employed by the United Nations in respect of the United Nations Emergency Force. This amount has to do with our contribution to that fund. In the original estimates for the financial year 1 July 1964 to 30 June 1965 we voted R75,000 for this purpose. Under the new arrangement this fund is now budgeted for from 1 January to 31 December so that it actually means we are paying for 1½ years and that is why this amount of R34,000 is required. This will not happen again in future, of course, because we are now paying for years to get into line with this new budgeting procedure.

I want to ask the Minister please to give us greater clarity under Item “K”. The Minister has indicated that in the original Estimates R75,000 had to be voted for this emergency course and that the R34,000 here would be an additional contribution. Am I to assume that the original Estimate, which is shown here as R408,000 …

Order! I am afraid the hon. member cannot ask that.

Am I not in order in asking for further information?

The hon. the Minister has given the reasons for the increase.

Will the Minister please give us some information about Item “D”, which consists of printing, stationery, advertisements and publications. The additional amount is 50 per cent up on the original amount. Would he give us a breakdown of the figures under each of those four heads?

This sub-head is for printing, stationery, advertisements and publications. The original provision was for R54,000 and the revised Estimate is R81,000, so the additional amount required is R27,000. The additional money is required for the following purposes: (a) The South West African case in the International Court of Justice. As it was not known when the original Estimates were prepared what printing would be required to be done during 1964-5 in connection with the case, therefore only nominal provision was made for the sum of R2,500. The latest Estimates indicate that the printing of the rejoinder will amount to R10,200. In additional, errata lists have to be printed in respect of Volume 10 and the supplement to the counter memorial which was prepared during 1963-4. The printing of the errata lists will amount to an estimated R1,800. The increased provision required in respect of printing in connection with the South West case therefore amounts to R9,500. The preparation of the rejoinder referred to above has necessitated the purchase during the year under review of large quantities of photostat paper and also extra quantities of ordinary stationery. These various requirements were not originally foreseen, and they necessitate the provision of additional funds to the extent of R6.760. When the original Estimates were framed, it was also not known what publications would be required during 1964-5 in connection with this case, and no provision was made in this respect. It has now been estimated that the books and publications, etc., required in connection with the preparation of the rejoinder will cost R800 and it is accordingly necessary to provide this amount. The total additional provision required in connection with the South West case therefore amounts to R17,060, consisting of the amounts I have mentioned.

Vote put and agreed to.

Expenditure from Bantu Education Account

“Bantu Education”,—R338,200,

There are two items here, “K” and “N”. I shall take “N” first, financial assistance to university colleges. I should like the hon. the Minister to tell us what the nature is of this assistance, whether it is for salaries, buildings or equipment. The second item is subsidies, and presumably these are subsidies for teachers’ salaries.

Order! The hon. member cannot ask questions.

I was just trying to save time.

Order! The Minister will reply and explain the reason for the increase.

What interests me more is the excess to be met from savings on other sub-heads. Perhaps the Minister will explain what that means.

In connection with

Item “N” I should like to ask the Minister what circumstances necessitated this increased financial assistance being granted to the University College?

Order! That question has already been asked.

But I am going to ask a further question. You cannot stop me.

Order! The hon. member must resume his seat.

On a point of order, surely I am entitled to ask a question?

The hon. member is only entitled to ask what the reason for the increase is. He is not allowed to ask any other question, and this question has already been asked in respect of each of these two items. The hon. member must resume his seat.

On a point of order, the hon. member for Hillbrow (Dr. Steenkamp) may have an additional question similar to the one I have asked.

Order! The hon. member must resume his seat. The Items do not permit of additional questions. There is only one question to be asked and that is the reason for the increase.

On a point of order …

Order! The

hon. member must resume his seat. I have given my reasons.

I should perhaps reply before hon. members start suggesting reasons which are not correct. The reason for the increase in the amount of financial assistance to university colleges is because the salary scales of White and non-White lecturers have been revised in the course of the year. The revised scale came into operation with retrospective effect as from 1 January 1964. The revised improved scale was introduced in order to get into line with what other universities in the country have done and this amount is required so as to pay better salaries to Bantu lecturers as well. The whole amount is therefore required, for improved salary scales for lecturers. The additional amount asked for in connection with subsidies under sub-head K is required because when the amount was estimated for the Budget last year for this particular financial year the fact that the Transkei had disappeared from the Bantu Education Account had to be taken into account for the first time and provision no longer had to be made for the schools in the Transkei. As a result the accounts section of my Department, under the impression that they came under the Transkei, erroneously deducted from the estimated amount all the subsidies to all the schools falling within the Transkei region of the Department. When I talk about the Transkei region I mean the organized region as classified by my Department. The Transkei region does not fall completely within the territorial area of the Transkeian Government. There are consequently 50 schools which have not been transferred to the Transkeian Government, schools which fall outside the real Transkei. The mistake was discovered after the Budget.

Where are these schools?

In the Kokstad area. It was a purely arithmetical error and that is why provision has to be made for subsidies to those 50 schools. The savings to which the hon. member has referred are small amounts which have been saved under various sub-heads, amounts which are being carried forward in respect of subsidies.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Loan Vote A.—“Miscellaneous Loans and Services”, R51,642,000,

Item No. 9, “Loan to the Rhodesian Government,” is a new item. Before putting the questions that I want to put in regard to this matter I think in order to avoid any misunderstanding we should make it clear that as far as the Opposition is concerned, we approve of the loan and we approve particularly the reasons given by the Minister in his statement for making that loan, namely that it was an example of co-operation with and goodwill towards a northern neighbour. I believe that this is a historical occasion. This is perhaps the first loan by a South African Government to an African State. I think in these circumstances it is perhaps necessary that we should ask certain questions in this regard, while at the same time exhibiting the utmost goodwill and the utmost desire for co-operation with neighbours to the north. I think we should like to know whether the granting of this loan is in any way indicative of a new policy in this regard. The Minister said that it was in the interests of our exporters. Must we understand that this loan is being given primarily in accordance with the policy of advancing the interests of our exporters, or is the primary reason goodwill and co-operation with a neighbour to the north of us? I think we should perhaps know also what the nature of the security is. This is a loan from Government to Government, but we are not dealing here with an independent government, and I think we should know what the circumstances are governing the security. Is the security limited to the specific items for which the loan was made? Is the security the good name of the Government? Is the security backed by any other guarantee in respect of the national debt of that government? What are the circumstances in that connection? You see, Sir, I think it is necessary to get clarity on these matters on this first occasion when a loan of this kind is made so that one can get some indication of the reason for this change and whether it is indicative of the policy for the future insofar as loans of this kind are concerned. I may say how much I appreciate the presence of the hon. the Prime Minister while these questions are put and while this matter is discussed.

I first want to reply to the first question put by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition, namely, whether this loan is being made mainly in order to promote the interests of our exporters or whether it is a gesture of goodwill. It is exclusively a gesture of goodwill but having a choice as to the various projects for which this loan is being made, we accepted those projects which we thought were also of indirect importance to the exporters of South Africa. It is, however, first and foremost a gesture of goodwill to a neighbouring state which, as we know, is finding it difficult under present circumstances to get assistance in other ways.

As far as the second question is concerned it is of course a loan by one government to another government and no particular security goes with it. As a matter of fact it would be an insult to the Rhodesian Government to ask for security. The security is not in the form of these particular projects but it was not our intention to grant a loan which could be used for general purposes. We thought it should be coupled to a specific project. It remains a government loan however and the Rhodesian Government is responsible for it just as it is responsible for any internal loan it makes. Although it is not an independent country it nevertheless has control over this matter and it was in view of that that we conducted these negotiations.

Item No. 7, “Local Loans Fund,” R17,700,000, is also a new item. It is true that the hon. the Minister made a statement in regard to this when he introduced the motion to go into Committee, but the amount is a very large one and I should like to ask the Minister whether this appropriation is associated in any way with the legislation which was passed last year and which abolished the Reserve Fund in the Local Loans Fund. I understood the hon. the Minister to say that the bulk of this money was going to be used for redemption purposes. Will the hon. the Minister tell us how much of this amount is going to be available to meet the demand for new local loans. I think the figure of total advances up to the end of March 1964 stood at some R25,000,000 on local loans. Because of the large amount I would appreciate it if the hon. the Minister would explain how much is going to be used to meet the demands for local loans and how much is going to be used for a different purpose.

The position is as I explained yesterday. There is an amount which is really the redemption fund of the subsidized housing scheme. In the past it was simply used by the local loan fund for its own purposes; it was lent out, but the Public Debt Commissioner decided last year that that was not the correct procedure; that it was really a trust fund and that those moneys had to be held in trust by us until such time as the whole loan had been repaid. It is money we are holding in trust for various local authorities who are responsible for it. We then decided to pay it over to the Public Debt Commissioner for investment as happens in the case of all trust funds. The position is. therefore, that the whole amount of R16,200,000 which was in the redemption fund has now been paid over to the Public Debt Commissioners to be controlled as trust funds by them. But the effect of that was that the working capital, if I may call it that, of the loan fund was reduced by R16,200,000. We are consequently voting this amount of R16,200,000 for the local loan fund. The amount is then paid in and appears as a credit item when provision is made on Loan Account for what the Public Debt Commissioners can contribute to the Loan Account. The other R1,500,000 is an extra amount which is being used to increase the capital of the fund to keep pace with the increased demand for loans by local authorities, particularly the smaller municipalities. The capital they therefore have to lend out will be the amount they have already used plus an additional R1,500,000 which is now being voted to them as an additional amount.

I want to come back to Item No. 9 and say again that in the light of the explanation given by the hon. the Minister, the loan, of course, has the full approval of this side of the House. I wonder if I could tempt the hon. the Minister to go a little further in replying to my question, one aspect of which was the extent to which this represented a policy decision. I should be grateful if he could deal with that for me.

There is no fixed policy. This matter is dealt with on merit. No fixed policy has been laid down for the future.

Item 8 is also a new item. Will the hon. the Minister tell me what the Standard Stock Account is for and why it has to be done in this particular way.

Mr. Chairman, may I seek your guidance in regard to Item 1, in which an additional R30,000,000 is required for the Railway and Harbour Fund for capital expenditure. I do not want to ask the hon. the Minister for the reasons for the increase because we are all aware of the estimates when the hon. the Minister of Transport submitted his Additional Estimates. My question is of a different nature because the Minister of Transport indicated in the course of those discussions that he did not require from the Treasury the full amount of R30,000,000. The Minister indicated something quite different in those discussions, and I should like to know why an amount of R30,000,000 appears under this loan vote. As we understood the position at the time, the Minister indicated that he would be requiring something like R21,000,000 as other savings had been effected. Perhaps the hon. the Minister could enlighten us, but I find myself in this difficulty that we already know the reason for the additional amount, but it is not what the Minister’s colleague, the Minister of Transport, indicated to the House.

I shall allow the question put by the hon. member but I shall allow no further discussion after the hon. the Minister has given his reply.

In reply to the hon. member for Durban (Central) (Dr. Radford) I just want to say that the standard supply account of the Department of Health stands at R120,000 at the moment but the expansion in the Department has been such that it was considered necessary to provide for an increase in the standard supply account and this amount of R40,000 is now being paid into that account of the Department to bring it up to R160,000.

As far as the question put by the hon. member for Turffontein (Mr. Durrant) is concerned I can only give him the reasons. I have already explained that it is not really a case where we have to vote money because the money has actually already been voted in the Additional Estimates submitted by the hon. the Minister of Transport. All we are asking for here is approval that the amount be paid over. The reason is that there is an increased demand as was clearly evident from the additional estimates of the hon. the Minister of Transport.

Vote put and agreed to.

Loan Vote B.—“Public Works”, R500,

The first three items under new works are all new items, involving an additional amount of altogether R150. I refer to the following items: (i) “Bloemfontein (Tempe): Taking over of and renovations to Isolation Hospital”; (2) “Simonstown: S.A. Naval Base: Military Police Station”; and (3) “Walvis Bay: Rooikop: Air Force Station: Additional accommodation.” Can the hon. the Minister give us some further information with regard to these new items, apart from the bare explanation that we have in the document before us. As far as the third item is concerned, that is to say, the Air Force station at Rooikop, there is a footnote which reads, “an amount of R250,000 of this provision will be accounted for by the Secretary for Defence”. In the case of the second item, “military police station at S.A. Naval Base, Simonstown” there is also a footnote which reads, “to be accounted for by the Secretary for Defence.” Other than that there is no information. This is obviously a case where the accepted practice is being followed of using the Estimates for the acceptance of the principle to erect this type of building by making provision for a nominal amount and we would be pleased if the hon. the Minister could give us some further detailed information with regard to these items so that we can exercise our judgment as to what action to take.

As far as Items 1 and 2 are concerned the position is that because of the serious shortage of hospital accommodation for the Free State commando the municipality of Bloemfontein has been approached by the Department of Defence for the latter to take over the isolation hospital which can accommodate approximately 800 patients. The property consists partly of buildings which was purchased in 1926 for approximately R31,000 by the municipality from the Department of Defence. Since then additional buildings which were financed jointly by the municipality and the Department of Health have been constructed. The contribution of the municipality amounts to something like R95,000. The sworn appraised value of the property is R312,400 when everything is taken into account—brick building, wood and iron railings, footpaths and other roads, water furrows, etc. The municipality owes approximately R44,000 on a loan in respect of the property and is prepared to part with the isolation hospital against payment of this amount while the site of 99 yards will be rented to the State at R1 per yard. It is estimated that renovations costing about R40,000 will have to be done. The accommodation is urgently required by the Department of Defence and it is necessary to make provision for it in these Additional Estimates.

As far as the second item is concerned, the military police station at the S.A. Naval Base at Simonstown, as a result of the widening of the road the police station will have to be demolished and a new police station will have to be erected. This is mainly for that purpose. As far as the third item is concerned, the additional accommodation at Walvis Bay, the position is that the major portion of this service comprises housing for the military personnel.

May I clarify one point with the hon. the Minister. Did I hear him correctly when I understood him to say that the isolation hospital would have 800 beds?

No, I said that it was capable of accommodating 800 patients.

Let me say immediately that any improvement to the hospital services for military personnel at Bloemfontein will be more than welcomed and therefore we will give the strongest support to any steps taken to improve what were most unsuitable and most undesirable conditions as far as I am concerned and as far as the ballotees themselves are concerned. But this camp is one which was designed to train about 1,500 men, apart from temporary bivouac camps. We were told that we are going to have a hospital capable of accommodating about 800 people. In other words, we are expecting to have about half our soldiers in hospital …

Don’t be silly.

No, I am not being silly. We have not had the full explanation of this item. If the military is going to take over an isolation hospital capable of accommodating about 800 patients then I think we are entitled to more information. Surely we are not going to have those premises standing empty; we are not going to have premises capable of containing 800 hospital beds to deal with probably 30 or 40 patients at a time. The average hospitalization up to the present has probably been in the region of 30 to 40 people. with a few in the general hospital for the treatment of serious illness. I think we are entitled to ask the Minister what is going to happen to the available accommodation, namely the other 760 potential beds. I hope that we will be given much more clarity on this matter. I will not take the point further but I am sure that there is more information that can be given to us which will throw more light on this subject.

In the first place the hospital is not only intended for ballotees; it is to serve the entire Orange Free State Command which naturally embraces a very big area. Nor will we use all those beds. We are getting the whole site together with the building from the municipality of Bloemfontein who has treated us in a more friendly manner. There are old corrugated iron buildings. Some of these buildings were taken over as far back as 1926 for the military forces of the day. Those old corrugated iron buildings will not be restored. We shall use the new brick buildings which have been erected in the meantime. Those are the buildings which will mainly be used together with the new kitchen which the Municipality built, a modern kitchen which alone would probably have cost R40,000. The Municipality is letting us have all their buildings for R40,000. But that does not mean that we are going to open a hospital there for 800 patients. Eight hundred can be accommodated but it is not only intended for ballotees; it is to serve the entire Free State Command which includes a big area of the Cape; I think as far as Upington.

May I ask the hon. the Minister to give us a little more information. We have this picture that the entire building will not be used. Can he tell us roughly how many beds are envisaged and how big the hospital will be. In other words is it the intention to have a big military hospital in embryo which can develop into a full-scale military hospital or is it the intention to have a small hospital with temporary and visiting staff or will there be permanent staff with permanent officers, permanent doctors and permanent nurses? Will we continue with the present system of visiting doctors to attend to ballotees or will it be a permanent South African medical corps institution where proper and full-scale medical services will be provided to cope with all illnesses, including serious illnesses, X-ray and operations, etc.?

At the moment we have two military hospitals in South Africa on a full-scale basis. The one is at Voortrekker Heights and the other at Wynberg. We are now going to open a third full-scale military hospital at Bloemfontein.

What size staff is envisaged?

There will be a permanent staff just as the other hospitals have but I cannot at the moment say exactly how big the staff will be.

I want to refer to Item 20 on page 26, “Cape Town: Stal Square Government Buildings”. I would like the hon. the Minister to give us quite a lot of information on this project. This is a very large project for which nearly R4,000,000 appears on the Estimates and we would like to know what this scheme of development is. There is a footnote here which says, “Site purchased for R260,515”. We would like the hon. the Minister to tell us whether this is a portion of the ground that is owned by the Government in this area; what area of ground is going to be covered by this proposed new building and generally what the building scheme is. There is a lot of money involved and we would like a full explanation from the hon. the Minister.

I will try to give the hon. member all information I have available. Owing to the creation of new departments and the increase in the personnel of existing departments as a result of increased activities, the problem of housing sessional personnel has become more difficult each year. The nature of the duties of sessional personnel requires that they be accommodated as near as possible to the Houses of Parliament, where suitable hired accommodation is not readily available. We are at present already hiring accommodation far away from the Houses of Parliament. It was decided therefore to erect an office block on the site bounded by Parliament, Leeuwen and Plein Streets and Stal Square. That will give the hon. member an idea of the area. This block will be erected to house the Ministers and sessional personnel. The documents are now ready for the invitation of tenders. It was the intention to include this service in the Main Estimates for 1965-6. But in view of the close proximity of the building site and the Houses of Parliament the noise and possible disruption which will be caused by the demolition of the buildings and excavations might be disturbing and it was thought advisable to expedite the invitation of tenders so that a large portion of this work can be completed during the parliamentary recess. The invitation for tenders can therefore not be postponed until after the promulgation of the Appropriation Act in July 1965 and it is necessary to include this service in the Additional Estimates. That is all the information I have available at present.

The only thing the minister has been able to tell us is the area which this new building will occupy. Perhaps I can’t blame the hon. the Minister. Perhaps another Minister is responsible for the building, its erection, its design, what it is going to provide as far as Ministers and their staffs are concerned, and what, if any, it is going to provide as far as members of this House are concerned; is there going to be adequate parking when this building is complete; what other areas of ground do we have there? When an amount of this magnitude is being spent it seems to me that this House should be given a full explanation as to the entire building scheme so that we will know what is envisaged. We now know which is the area but that, frankly, is all we know. We would like some further explanation from the hon. the Minister.

As the hon. member knows in the first place the complex of buildings in this area. i.e. between Parliament Street, Plein Street and Stal Plein is a complex of buildings which consists on the one hand of old buildings, some of them in poor condition and some which were originally used for other purposes, for hotels, for example. The different departments have regional offices here in Cape Town which have to be accommodated. We have office accommodation for these departments all over the city but departments are also accommodated in the present Marks Building. The result is that when the officials come down for the Session and when the Ministers come down with their personnel it is extremely difficult to accommodate all the Ministers near the Houses of Parliament. It is impossible to accommodate them all in Marks Building. The idea is to house the officials who come down from Pretoria in this new complex and probably also in Marks Building where accommodation may still perhaps be available. The plans are available. I do not think I am expected to explain the plans here. I am prepared at any time to arrange with the Department of Public Works to show the plans to hon. members who are interested.

I appreciate the offer of the Minister, but that will be a little bit late. What I would like to know is whether the hon. the Minister has any information, or whether he could get the information, we ask for with regard to these buildings. According to the Press there have already been discussions between the State and the local authorities in connection with those buildings. What I would like to know is whether the building itself will provide, on the ground floor, any premises to be let for ordinary commercial use so as to take the place of certain business premises which are being demolished? I think that was one of the bones of contention at the early stages.

On Plein Street, yes.

Thank you. It would naturally be on the Plein Street side. Certainly not on this side. As the hon. the Minister must know one of the most difficult problems of Parliament at the moment is the question of parking. It is true that more space has now been provided in the open. But when you consider the value of cars to-day, Sir, it is totally unfair towards members of this House to have to park their cars in the open in all kinds of weather. They have to provide their own transport; transport which is essential for their work. No modern building of this nature would be constructed by any business firm unless basement parking is provided in it for the staff. I want to ask whether that facility will be provided. You see, Sir, certain omissions in the two new wings to these buildings which have recently been built at considerable cost do not give one too much confidence that this type of thing is being looked after. A heating system has been installed in these two wings which can be utilized in winter, when the House does not sit, but no air-conditioning ventilation system has been provided to cool and ventilate the offices on hot summer days when members have to use them under conditions which are the reverse of comfortable. That does not give one much confidence that those features will be looked after in this building. So I would like to know if those particular features could be examined and some assurance given that they are being taken care of.

All I can say to the hon. member is that I know the Committee on Internal Arrangements only last week unanimously passed a motion of thanks in the Department of Public Works for the work done and the improvements effected here. That is my reply to his complaint about the work that has been done here.

As far as the other matter is concerned, I want to say in the first place that what we are doing here is to vote an amount in principle for a complex of buildings to be erected. But I do not think it falls within the scope of this House to discuss the details of those buildings. I may tell the hon. member that I am informed that provision is made for parking facilities but certainly not for shops. You cannot accommodate shops in a Government building. I have already informed the bodies concerned about that. I have also informed them that we shall not lose sight of their interests in the planning of the building to be erected on the opposite side of the street. We shall not, for example, create a dead spot which will be in cruel contrast. We shall keep count of that. But if hon. members want to see the plans I am always prepared to discuss the details with them if they have any suggestions to make which can still be incorporated after the architects and the planners have finished with them. I think we must be satisfied with that. It is not for this House to discuss the details of the buildings.

Would the hon. the Minister be so kind as to give us further information in connection with Item (20) “Alterations and improvements—Ministerial residence, Pretoria”

Yes. There is one ministerial residence in Pretoria which is a very old building but which is situated on a very valuable piece of land which has been in the possession of the State for years. This residence has only one bedroom. It is an old building and unsuitable as a residence. There are two further bedrooms but they are upstairs under a corrugated iron roof with wooden partitions. During summer it is unbearably hot and in winter it is unbearably cold. With the result that any Minister who lives there cannot invite members of his family or friends to come and stay with him. For the rest the house is most unsuitable. The floors are uneven. In the third place, there is no proper study. This house has given us a great deal of trouble. At one stage we considered the question of getting rid of it and of acquiring a better one. But this house is situated on a piece of ground which actually borders on ground owned by the State and which stretches as far as Libertas. In the interest of the State we are not anxious to give up this ground. The only alternative is to repair this house properly. To do this the roof will have to be taken off completely. There will have to be large-scale re-planning in order to make it anything like a habitable house for a decent family. Those are the reasons why we have come to this decision.

We are grateful to the hon. the Minister for the explanation he has just given us. I want to return to the previous item. I should like to know something more about this Government building for which we are asked to vote this enormous amount of money. The hon. the Minister said in passing there would be parking facilities. I think the point hon. members on this side, as well as hon. members opposite, want to make is that we should like to have an assurance from the Minister that provision will be made for the motor-cars of members of Parliament. At the moment we have to park in the hollow up the road and one’s motorcar gets ruined by the sun. At the end of the Session you have to have the upholstery replaced. That happens time and again. This is a serious matter as far as members of Parliament arc concerned. I hope the hon. the Minister can give us that assurance.

My information is that provision will be made for parking. I think this is a matter which the Committee on Internal Arrangements will have to consider so as to safeguard the interests of members of Parliament.

I should like to have some information on two items but before dealing with those did I understand the Minister correctly to say that the amount asked for in connection with the Walvis Bay Rooikop Air Force Station was for additional housing for the personnel of that area?

Yes.

I don’t know whether the hon. the Minister can deal with this or whether it falls under the Minister of Defence. As the Minister well knows all buildings in the Walvis Bay area are subject to a high degree of corrosion rust. I believe the buildings that have been constructed there have been constructed on stilts and of aluminium. I understand that is a fairly expensive form of construction if any durable life is to be obtained from them. I believe the buildings where the Air Force station is located are subject to the same amount of rust. It falls within the same area and is subject to the same misty conditions which prevail in the Walvis Bay area.

It is bad enough but it is much better than in Walvis Bay.

My point is this: In the construction of these buildings at the Air Force station has this factor been taken into consideration or is it simply the normal type of construction? I would be glad if the Minister could explain the position to me.

Then there are the items under (1) “Purchase of and renovations to a property to serve as a residence for the Consul-General in Hamburg” and “Purchase of and renovations to a property to serve as a residence for the Minister of the Republic at Washington”. It would appear to me that we are merely being asked to approve such purchase. When one thinks of the value of property in a city of the size of Washington this seems a very small amount. So it appears that parliamentary sanction is merely being sought in the meantime for the purchase of such a property. The question I want to put is this: If negotiations have been conducted for the purchase of such a property, has sufficient consideration been given to the decor and presentation of our legation, particularly in a place like Washington, to create a South African atmosphere? There has been criticism of this in the past, as the hon. the Minister will know. I shall be glad to receive an assurance from the Minister that satisfactory consideration has been given to this aspect. When foreigners enter our legations they must know immediately, from the atmosphere, that they are entering a South African precinct and something of which we, as a nation, can be proud.

All I can tell the hon. member is that my information is that that has been taken into consideration by the department concerned. As far as the property in Hamburg is concerned, to which the hon. member has referred, the position is that an official residence is hired for the Consul-General. This residence has been hired since 1 July 1951 at an annual rental of R2,786. The lease expires on 30 June 1965. But the owner is not prepared to grant a renewal as she intends selling the property. Alternative hired accommodation is not obtainable in Hamburg and it was decided to buy this property. It is situated in a select residential area and is considered to be one of the most dignified consular residences in Hamburg. It is closely situated to the South African Consulate. The residence is built on a site approximately 11,000 square feet in extent. There is a soundly constructed big building of three storeys and is generally in a good state of repair although an estimated amount of R5,000 will have to be spent on repairs and renovations. Valuations compiled by local valuators are as follows: Ground R21,000; improvements R38,000: a total of R59,733. The financial implications are as follows: Purchase price R57,143; estimates for repairs and renovations R5,000; transfer costs, say R857; contingencies R1,000. That gives a total of R64,000. The purchase price of R57,143 is considered reasonable for the following reasons: Hamburg is a city with approximately 2,000,000 inhabitants and residential accommodation is at a premium. The residence in question is in a select residential area and the purchase price compares favourably with prices paid in recent years for residences for the Republic’s representatives in foreign countries. That is the information supplied by my Department.

By your Department or to your Department?

By my Department. Before they buy a property like this a representative of my Department usually visits the city and satisfies himself that it is in the interests of South Africa to buy such place, especially where such a big amount is at stake. I am informed that embassies are looked after by Foreign Affairs to a large extent as far as furnishings, etc. are concerned. I would suggest that, if my hon. friend wants an assurance on that point, he approaches the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

I appreciate the normal formalities the Minister’s Department has to go through before the actual purchase is made. May I ask the Minister who, in the first instance, makes the actual selection of the property and the site? Are we to assume that that is the responsibility of the Minister of Foreign Affairs?

It is done in consultation with the Department of Foreign Affairs.

I would assume that the representative of the Government in the particular city would have the best information and knowledge as to the desirability of the site and that the official of the Department of Public Works must be guided by the representative of the Department of Foreign Affairs. Does that happen?

He acts in consultation with the Department of Foreign Affairs.

I want to return to this Ministerial residence, not in the sense that I want to go back there to live in it, but I want to ask the Minister some questions about it. This miserable residence apparently had no more than one bedroom to begin with. Did I understand the Minister correctly? It had no study …

I never said anything of the sort. I shall repeat what I said. I say it is a reasonably old building which is situated on a very valuable piece of ground. I said further that the building was of such a nature that there was only one bedroom that could be used, downstairs, and that the two bedrooms upstairs—I did not say there was only one bedroom—were right under the roof. It is a corrugated iron roof; the walls are of timber. In the summer it is hot and very cold in winter. That was what I said.

Who lives there?

Various Ministers have already lived there. Everyone who has lived there has complained. In the second case I said the study was very unsuitable. I did not say there was not a study. It is the type of study in which a Minister cannot invite people who come and see him. Ministers have to have such a place. In the third place I said the floors were of such a nature, because it is an old building, that they were not on the same level. I can go into all the details but I do not think hon. members expect me to do so. The building is unsuitable. We then had to decide whether or not to get rid of the building. We do not want to get rid of it because it is situated on land which lies within the complex which the State wants to retain, also for future use. It lies in the complex from Libertas to the Union Buildings. It is also in the interests of the State that we do not sell or get rid of the place but rather make proper use of it.

The hon. the Minister wants to take longer over the discussion than I do. I heard every word he said. But he did not listen to my opening sentence. I said: “to return to this ministerial residence.” I am still talking about a ministerial residence. What the hon. the Minister said, in the first instance, was that as a ministerial residence it only had one bedroom—“bruikbaar”—is that correct? For the purpose of this ministerial bedroom it had one bedroom; it had a study which was not “bruikbaar”, in other words, it was not “bruikbaar” for a ministerial residence, as he himself explained.

I would say for an ordinary house.

But I am talking, with respect—I shall say it for the fourth time—about a ministerial residence, not an ordinary house, not the kind that I would live in—but a ministerial residence. I shall begin all over again, Sir. This ministerial residence apparently, to begin with, had no more than one bedroom—as a ministerial residence—had no study—as a ministerial residence—and became unbearably hot in summer. Those are the three salient facts about a miserable kind of house in which I for one would not even wish to install the hon. Minister of Information. Now, Sir, I want to ask the hon. the Minister this question: I realize the advisability of the State, having acquired a piece of land adjoining Libertas, not surrendering it. There is no dispute about that. I want to ask the Minister why this particular house, in that condition, was not immediately demolished and a new one built? There is such a thing as a practical valuation of a property in terms of its life, in terms of its purpose, for a particular, shall I say, “inmate” in this case? And in terms of the desirability or otherwise of expending money to improve it. I want to put this to the hon. the Minister: If he would give us the name of the occupant; the value of the site; the value of the house on it; when it was acquired; what the municipal valuation is; what the sworn appraisal is; then one might well come to the conclusion, as might the Minister, that to spend R27,000 on remodelling an existing house—because he can’t even leave the roof on it, he can’t leave the four perimeter walls in the same position because he has to expand, because he needs more bedrooms, he will only have the stand left—would be money wasted. It has not got a proper floor. He told us all those things. I listened very carefully. What I am trying to discuss is not the sum of R50 involved here, but the question of policy in so far as ministerial residences are concerned. We have seen, for example, quite recently that the Government has decided to spend R750,000 on a residence in Tokyo. That is for our Consul-General, not for a Minister of this Cabinet. If you spend R750,000 on a house for a Consul-General in Tokyo, then you should be prepared to spend a reasonable amount of money to acquire a habitable home in our own country, in Pretoria, in the capital, for a Minister of the State. And if that is wrong, I would like to ask the Minister to tell me why that is wrong. Again I would like to know what this house cost to begin with? Why was it bought, if it was going to be the subject of this kind of patch-work?—I don’t want to use the word “hotch-potch” because it annoys the hon. Minister—shall I say, this kind of remodelling—which requires R27,000 to be spent on it, and then obviously the house will never be the kind of house it should be; it will still be the kind of house he started off with—a house completely unsuitable, a house which has had a lot of money spent on it and which will constantly require additional expenditure, possibly for maintenance. And one fine day, depending on who moves into it, depending on his status in the Cabinet, he will say: “This is for the birds; I am not living in this house.” So I want to ask the hon. the Minister to give us some information to indicate how this whole question—not the acquisition of the land, which is not in dispute—of the remodelling of the house, was approached.

My Department has made an estimate of the position and we find that the following should be done to this house: Extension of diningroom by 5 feet; enlargement of existing study by incorporation of an adjacent room; conversion of existing pantry to a cloakroom for guests; conversion of existing storeroom into a pantry and laundry; lowering of floor of rear portion of the house to the same level as the floor of the front portion; and replacement of staircase to upper floor. Reconstruction of the entire upper floor to provide a suitable bedroom …

Bedroom or bedrooms?

Bedrooms.

*I cannot help the hon. member any further. The experts in my Department, the architects and other people, have gone into the position. After they have investigated the position thoroughly I am satisfied that it will pay us better to effect these improvements than to build a new house. This Cabinet is not extravagant … [Interjections.]

I want to come back to the amount which is being spent on Government buildings on Stal Plein. I should like to ask a few questions in connection with this scheme. The Minister has given us the boundaries of the site which the building will occupy but we read in the newspapers a week or so ago that certain other buildings in Plein Street had been obtained for the purposes of Government use. At the moment at the bottom of Parliament Street, and I take it that this is all eventually to be one complex, I see there is some demolition work taking place, and I want to ask the hon. Minister if an overall plan has been made, because obviously when the top portion has been finished, the activities are going to extend to the bottom, and I would like to know if, for example, a suitable entrance is being planned for the bottom of Parliament Street which Parliament has now taken over? Have all those factors been attended to? I do not know whether the building at the bottom of Parliament Street is being demolished for Government use, and if it is to be used for private purpose, is the Minister satisfied that it will in fact fit in with the character of the whole complex which has been planned, bounded by Bureau Street on the bottom side and Stal Plein on the top?

The decisions taken in connection with this matter were finally come to by my predecessor and not by myself but I am convinced that what he did in consultation with his department will be to the satisfaction of everybody. In this connection I just want to say that it is impossible for me to give a description from memory of all the entrances and that kind of thing. But if hon. members want to know more about it I invite them to come and have a look at the plans in the office of the Department of Public Works.

I would just like to touch on this question of the Stal Plein building. I may say as a Capetonian that we very much welcome the fact that what should be a very fine building is going up there in the place of some that are not so fine, and we hope that the plans if they are not completely finalized will ensure that in fact it will be a building of good quality. Some of the government building in that area is not perhaps as good as it could be, and I think such a site merits a building constructed of the best material. Reference has been made to parking space, and where we are spending nearly R4,000,000 on a building, which will have a site partly on Stal Plein, one would think that it might bring into question perhaps the beautification of the square itself, because there will evidently be a facing onto that square, and I wonder whether the hon. Minister will keep that in mind. It may not be completely apropos in regard to this heading, and yet where you have a new building …

Order! That is not before the Committee.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Loan Vote C.—“Telegraph, Telephone and Radio Services”, R1,250,000,

Could the hon. Minister give us some details in regard to the additional amount of R1,250,OO0, which is rather a large increase.

The position is that as a result of the tremendous economic expansion and prosperity we are experiencing it has become necessary for the department to supply approximately 5,000 new telephones per month and we cannot only supply 5,000 telephones; it is essential that we enlarge the automatic exchanges and install all the apparatus that go with it. That accounts for the amount of R1,000,000. The balance of R250,000 is due to the fact that the small automatic coin boxes are incapable of differentiating between the 2c piece and the 10c piece. Because of the new coins to be introduced only an electronic coin box will be capable of making that distinction. That is the reason why we have to spend an amount of R250,000 on supplying new coin boxes.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Loan Vote E.-"Water Affairs", R1,595,

I should like to have some information with regard to the items appearing here. The first one is a new item and the only information we are given here is that it relates to a water scheme on the Makatini Flats. We all know that a very big water scheme is being undertaken at the Pongola, a scheme which we believe will bring the Makatini Flats under irrigation, and we therefore find this new item rather inexplicable. Then I should also like to have some explanation in connection with the second item, namely an “ex-gratia payment to S. H. Goslin & Company (Pty.) Limited,” under the sub-head “Betterment and Drainage on Government Water Schemes.” Provision is being made this year for R1 on the last item, “Additional Capital for Equipment,” but there is nevertheless a very large increase; whereas the original estimate was R1 million the revised estimate is R3,500,000, but as a result of savings we are only being asked to vote R1.

The Department of Lands was anxious to have certainty with regard to the crops that can be planted in the Makatini area, even before a start was made with the canal, and the Department of Lands then requested the Department of Agricultural Technical Services to establish a research station in the Makatini Flats so that the research station can carry on with the work at this stage. The Department of Agricultural Technical Services asked Water Affairs to regard it as a matter of priority to make water available at this stage already for the research station so that they can carry on with their research. [Interjection.] No, the water does not come out of the dam but out of the river by means of a pipeline and a special pumping installation which is now being constructed. This is in the Pongola River below the dam. This is being done in order to examine all the various types of land and to do research. The total cost connected with this will amount to R1 18,000, of which R10,000 is required for the financial year 1964-5. The balance will be required in the financial year 1965-6. We can, however, provide this R10,000 out of savings which have been effected, but we cannot make provision for this under sub-head E(3) unless it is voted by Parliament under this Vote, and that is why only R1 is being asked for.

Has this saving of R10,000 been effected under other sub-heads dealing with the Pongolapoort dam?

No, under other sub-heads of the Department of Water Affairs. This only goes to show how efficient the Department is.

With reference to the second amount to which reference is made here, namely for betterment and drainage on Government water schemes and for ex-gratia payment, I should like to explain that this firm, S. Goslin, submitted a tender to the Tender Board to do this work. Unfortunately it submitted a wrong quotation, that is to say, a quotation on the free-on-rail basis at any station in the Republic instead of free-on-rail at the factory, and this made a difference which resulted in this loss. The Tender Board accepted the firm’s initial tender and is satisfied that the loss is an actual loss as a result of this wrong quotation because the railage was not taken into account. This matter also came before the Select Committee. The firm made representations to the Tender Board and the Tender Board took up this matter with the Treasury. The Treasury approved on 9 November 1964, of the refund of this amount to Mr. Goslin.

Lastly the hon. member asked what the position was with regard to the item “Equipment additional capital.” The position is that supplies were ordered from the Department and a sum of R2½ million was required to pay for equipment which had been ordered in the course of the past few years but which will only be delivered during 1964-5. Unfortunately there was a misunderstanding between the Department of Water Affairs and the Treasury concerning the way in which the supplementary capital for that account would be allocated. Water Affairs was under the impression that arrangements would be made by the Treasury to make the necessary supplementary capital available to the Department as and when it was needed. The procedure has now been ironed out and it is necessary, as indeed the Department thought all along the line, to have this additional capital specially voted by Parliament, and in these circumstances an amount of only R1 is being asked for in order to obtain parliamentary approval of the principle.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Loan Vote G.—“Agricultural Technical Services”, R140,000,

Will the hon. the Minister please explain why this additional amount of R140,000 has to be made available in connection with advances for soil conservation works?

The hon. the Minister has already explained under the additional estimates of revenue and expenditure that the expenditure on these works has increased as a result of a wage increase. That wage increase was approved by the Treasury on 6 February 1964. We now find that as a result of the revision of tariffs, as already explained by the Minister under Vote No. 27, the expenditure in respect of advances for soil conservation works in terms of Section 29 of Act No. 45 of 1964 has also increased considerably. When submitting the estimates of expenditure for 1964-5 during 1963, the Secretary for Finance was referred to discussions where the proposed increased tariffs were agreed to in principle. The Secretary of Finance was informed at the same time that if the proposed increased tariffs were approved, the provision in this Vote would have to be increased by R234,000, and the Department was informed that if the proposed increased tariffs for soil conservation works were approved this provision would be augmented, if necessary. Furthermore, with the approval of the Treasury advances are now being made to tenants of land under the Land Settlement Act in instalments of up to R400 up to an amount not exceeding R1,600 in the aggregate. Tenants under the Land Settlement Act have not previously enjoyed this privilege. The result of this is that the expenditure is increasing and the indications are that as the year draws to a close the expenditure will increase more and more.

May I just point out to the hon. the Deputy Minister that this sub-head reads “advances for soil conservation works”, and not “subsidies for soil conservation and veld conservation”, These are not advances and my question was in connection with advances.

Order! The hon. the Deputy Minister has already explained the reasons for the increase.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Loan Vote J.—“Commerce and Industries”, R3,737,000,

Sir, you will recall that in the Vote on Revenue Account we had a similar difficulty. May I draw your attention to the footnote here in respect of the additional amount of R3,500,000. The footnote says, “Required for the development of industries in border areas.” I assume that this is a new Vote and that the position here is similar to the position that we had under the Vote on Revenue Account. Perhaps the hon. the Minister can give us some assistance.

I should like the hon. the Minister to explain these two items. In the case of Item No. 2, the additional amount to be voted is almost double the original estimate. I should like the Minister firstly to explain the increase, and then I should like him to tell us why these shares are being purchased in the Industrial Development Corporation. In fact, this is another advance to the I.D.C.

I want to point out to the hon. member for Turffontein that this is an ordinary increase and the hon. member must confine himself to asking for the reasons for the increase.

Hon. members will recall that from time to time for some years past we have been buying shares in the Industrial Development Corporation. The moneys paid for those shares have been used by the I.D.C. to finance border industries. Last year we voted a sum of R7,500,000 for the current year for this purpose, and it now appears that this amount is insufficient. The demand for loans of this nature, because of the general industrial upsurge and the great interest in border area development has been such that more money is required for this purpose. The Committee is now being asked to vote an additional R3,500,000 to buy shares in the I.D.C. so that the I.D.C. can use this R3,500,000 for financial aid to quite a number of industries, the establishment of which has been approved for this purpose in border areas. I might just say that this assistance will be mostly in the form of buildings that will be erected in border areas and which will then be leased to certain industrial undertakings.

In the second place the hon. member referred to the additional amount of R237,000 for border area development. This sum is made up of three amounts, the first being a sum of R184,000 which is being used for the further development of the Rosslyn area. The development of this area as a border area was approved some considerable time ago and we are carrying on with the development there. This development is taking place very rapidly and it has been decided, having regard to this rapid development, that additional facilities will have to be provided in the shape of roads, railway lines, etc. This R184,000 is required for roads and for the railway line and for further improvements in this area in order to keep pace with the rapid development which is taking place there. Then there is an amount of R20,000 which is required for the border area at Phalaborwa, which is developing very rapidly industrially. We are afraid that the development there is going to be uncontrolled and unplanned, and the Government has decided to set aside 300 morgen and to plan this area as a properly controlled, planned industrial area. This sum of R20,000 is required this year for surveys and for the diagrams on which the subsequent planning will be based. The third is an amount of R160,000 which is being loaned to the City Council of East London. The hon. member for East London (City) (Dr. Moolman) will probably be interested to learn that the City Council of East London has no more land available adjoining a railway line for industrial purposes. That is why the City Council would like to develop the Wilsonia area by making available quite a number of new industrial sites there. This money is required to link up the main railway line with the feeder lines and shunting lines. The Government has approved of this loan of R160,000 to the City Council of East London in order to develop the Wilsonia area as an industrial area and so as to link up the feeder lines with the main line so that East London will have more industrial sites adjoining a railway line.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Loan Vote K.—“Housing”, R1,533,000,

I should like the hon. the Minister to explain the very great increase in No. 3, “Housing in border industrial areas”. This is similar to the other items, except that in this case the increase is very much greater; it is 3½ times as much.

The reason is simply that housing had to be provided at a faster rate and there was an arrangement at that stage that the Department of Housing would provide that housing. There was a greater demand for housing.

For which race, Whites or non-Whites?

Whites.

I wonder if the hon. the Minister could tell us in which areas this housing will be erected.

Most of it is at East London.

Arising out of the Minister’s reply that this additional money was being made available for housing at East London, is it not a fact that a large number of the immigrants who came out to work in that particular factory at East London …

Order!

Sir, I am dealing with the question of housing …

Order! The hon. member is now suggesting a reason for the increase.

No, I am asking if it is not a fact that the housing that was provided for the immigrants was not acceptable to them, and that they demanded a better class of house?

Order!

You are altogether wrong.

Can the hon. the Minister give us further details as to the number of houses, the location of the housing schemes concerned.

East London.

As far as the conversion of these military hutments is concerned, is this also on the West Bank, East London?

The conversion of military hutments refers to two Government townships, the one at Pietermaritzburg and the other at Pretoria. This falls under the control of the Department of Community Development in view of the fact that further adjustments were made there.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Loan Vote L.—“Transport”, R10,000,

I do not know whether the hon. the Minister of Finance or the Minister of Transport can help me here, but I should like to have further details in regard to this new item. I should also like to know whether, in view of the policy the Minister has discussed with us on former occasions, amounts of this nature will appear from time to time for the development of small aerodromes in order to facilitate our internal air transport system by private people. Could the Minister give us some information in this regard?

The amount of R10,000 is required to meet expenditure in connection with the construction of a hardened runway, taxiway and apron at Kortdoorn aerodrome, that is Alexander Bay. The South African Airways have decided to replace the present Skymaster aircraft on the route Cape Town/Alexander Bay/Windhoek with Viscounts as from October 1965. The existing runway at Kortdoorn, Alexander Bay, is incapable of accommodating jet aircraft and the Minister of Transport has consequently directed that the aerodrome be provided with a hardened runway, taxiway and apron.

Vote put and agreed to.

On Loan Vote M.—“Education, Arts and Science”, R718,000,

Could the Minister please give me more information in connection with sub-head 1—“Erection of technical high school and hostels, Springs”, What is the additional expenditure required for and what additional buildings are being erected?

As far as the technical school at Springs is concerned, a loan of R598,000 was initially asked for. It is now being increased to R958,000. This is due firstly to the increase in building costs and secondly to the additional accommodation that will be erected.

Can the Minister give us the reason for the increase in the amount for the commercial high school at Germiston?

The commercial school at Germiston is a completely new undertaking.

Vote put and agreed to.

Remaining Loan Votes put and agreed to.

House Resumed:

Second Estimates of Additional Expenditure from Revenue, Bantu Education and Loan Accounts reported without amendment.

Estimates adopted.

The Minister of Finance brought up a Bill to give effect to the Estimates adopted by the House.