Mr Chairman, on behalf of the hon the Leader of the House I move without notice:

10h30 to adjournment.

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, on behalf of the Leader of the House I move the draft resolution printed in his name on the Order Paper, as follows:

Agreed to.

Mr Chairman, in chapter 2 of the annual report the departmental head reports to the hon the Minister on the medical care which is this department’s statutory responsibility, including general hospitalisation and surgery, which therefore falls under this part of the Administration: House of Assembly. This is the hospital service to the White portion of the population.

I should like to quote from the report. We read on page 5 under the heading “General hospitalisation and surgery”—

This therefore also includes private patients at departmental institutions. It is further reported that 14 clinics, government-aided hospitals and community health centres—so-called day hospitals—were transferred to this department from the Cape Provincial Administration with effect from 1 April last year.

It has come to light now, however, that a further 30 hospitals were transferred to the own affairs administration as from 1 April 1989, including the J G Strijdom Hospital in Johannesburg, which led to the resignation of 13 medical practitioners, including the superintendent of that hospital. Urgent discussions were then held on 2 May about this, inter alia, with the Deputy Minister of Health Services, Dr Veldman, the hon member for Rustenburg. A report in Die Burger of the following day, 3 May, read:

That is the superintendent—

It is also stated in this report that about 30 other hospitals were transferred to this department as from 1 April. I shall quote further from the report:

These doctors who resigned had all been appointed jointly by the University of the Witwatersrand and the Provincial Administration of the Transvaal. Last Wednesday evening, however, the most ridiculous and nonsensical television interview followed with the hon Deputy Minister concerned. [Interjections.] After a debacle such as I viewed in that telecast, I wondered whether the hon the Deputy Minister would still dare to stand for election in Rustenburg. [Interjections.] In fact, I want to recommend to the hon the Minister of Information, Broadcasting Services and the Film Industry that he use that hon Deputy Minister more frequently. It would be of great benefit to us in our election campaign.

What did the hon the Deputy Minister say? He honestly looked the viewers in the eye while he appeared on the box and he said everything would continue as it was on 31 March. Nothing would change! It would remain a training hospital and the necessary consultation with the authorities of Wits would take place. An effort would then be made to reach an acceptable understanding. [Interjections.] An understanding will be reached with Wits University, probably the most multiracial university in South Africa, and this hospital will be operated as an own affairs hospital.

Now I ask the hon the Deputy Minister how on earth it was decided to make this specific hospital a so-called own affairs hospital, especially against the background of the new Government policy at provincial level, as expressed by the Transvaal MEC for hospital services when he associated himself in public in Pretoria with the policy of the hon member for Parktown, that is equal and mixed hospital services as regards facilities and nursing services in provincial hospitals of the Transvaal. The hon member for Parktown confirms this. He associated himself with this.

What is the factual situation at the J G Strijdom Hospital? The next morning we heard over the radio in Monitor that a doctor from that hospital, whose name could not be disclosed, had said over the radio that technicians, laboratory staff, nurses and patients of all population groups were accommodated there.

I now want to ask the hon the Deputy Minister what other hospitals have been transferred to the Administration: House of Assembly on or since 1 April. Are they also continuing exactly as on 31 March?

I want to tell him that we would welcome it if there could be provision for de facto own affairs provincial and private hospitals. If it is still Government policy to provide for own residential areas, own schools and own community life, it is even more necessary that there should be own hospital facilities.

If the Department of Development Aid should find it necessary, for instance, to build a hospital for North Sothos a few kilometres from a hospital which serves Shangaans, this illustrates the fact that ethnic and national differences, including customs and traditions, are a source of friction and unhappiness in the hospital situation in particular.

I want to give hon members examples of this. Our voters simply inundate us with complaints in this connection. I should like to mention two examples from two categories of patients. One of these has no bargaining power and simply has to accept what is on offer. The other does have bargaining power. The first letter is from a woman writing from a country district in the Cape Province. She says:

I have another letter from a person who falls into another category. He was admitted to a private hospital in Cape Town. He writes:

He then described episodes of aggression and hostility which he experienced. He also described the dismay which they caused him. I shall advise him to bring the conduct of the nurses under discussion to the attention of the Nursing Council for possible disciplinary action. Matters went so far that this patient and a relative and a family friend had to be called to his hospital ward. He adds:

He concludes by saying:

He is referring here to misgivings which he had had regarding the nursing services. He says, however—

[Interjections.]

Let met tell hon members that most of us who are present in this House today can probably afford to be admitted to a private ward. We have a degree of bargaining power, just as this correspondent put it to me. He could also bargain, he could settle the issue and create better conditions for himself. I want to make a serious appeal today, however, on behalf of less affluent voters who have no choice. They have to accept this integrated situation willy-nilly because they can do nothing about it.

If it is Government policy to be everything to all people, that is to those who choose to live in free settlement areas, it should create them. Other people wish to live in residential areas of their own—keep it like this for them: Nevertheless we also request the Government to create hospitals, facilities and nursing services of our own for our people. Those taxpayers make a huge contribution to the Treasury.

The hon the Deputy Minister is aware of the statistics. I request him to create those opportunities where they wish them and under circumstances which many of our voters regard as more important than own residential areas and many other facilities. To my mind an invalid’s room most particularly requires an atmosphere of peace of mind, satisfaction and calm. These conditions are vital for optimum recovery. This is a scientific fact which cannot be argued away.

In other words, we request that facilities be created for our voters which suit their general community life. Just do not do such ridiculous things as are taking place at present at the J G Strijdom Hospital. I really want to say that the impression is created that they are done deliberately so that the Government, after further discussions later this month, need only throw their hands in the air and say they have tried it but it does not work and they will make no further efforts and then leave it at that.

I want to ask the hon the Minister whether he agrees with the MEC of Hospital Services of the Transvaal who ranged himself with the hon member for Parktown in Pretoria on 5 April. [Interjections.] The hon member for Parktown pleaded for the abolition of all separateness in the hospitals of the Transvaal. [Interjections.] That is the case. During that debate I asked the MEC of the Transvaal whether he agreed with the hon member for Parktown. He said that he agreed with the hon member for Parktown.

What would the hon the Minister say?

In other words, this is also the policy of the NP. During the same debate I asked why the Government was permitting the current integration process in our hospitals on a limited scale. Another senior member of the NP, the hon member for Langlaagte, said in the same committee meeting the previous day that he was in favour of the abolition of the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act. I asked him whether this was true and here is his reply from Hansard, 5 April 1989, col 4695:

I now ask the hon the Deputy Minister whether he agrees with the MEC and the hon member for Langlaagte. If that is the object, why are hospitals being placed under the control of the Administration: House of Assembly? That is the question. I want to obtain clarity this afternoon on whether this is his object for the future because, if it is not his object, he should repudiate the hon member for Langlaagte. He should also tell us what hospitals fall under the Administration: House of Assembly and whether those hospitals are operated as pure own affairs hospitals for the voters of the House of Assembly.

I consider it very important to adopt a clear standpoint now before the election so that our voters can know exactly where they stand with the Government regarding own affairs hospitals in this country. We on this side of the House say that, if it is Government policy to institute own residential areas, own schools and own community life, it is so much more essential to provide own hospitalisation for the voters who have to elect representatives to this House of Assembly.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Pietersburg must forgive me if I do not react to his arguments relating to own affairs hospitals. The hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister will reply fully in that regard.

†The hon member for Yeoville spoke in this House during the discussion on the Local Government, Housing and Works Appropriation Vote on the housing need of the aged. I agree with what the hon member said about caring for the aged and I wish to quote the following from his speech (Hansard, 20 March 1989, col 3351):

I also wish to draw the attention of hon members to the plight of the aged and, although I will address their needs in general terms, the remarks made by the hon member for Yeoville are still valid and applicable to the people who normally care for the aged.

*The provision of adequate services for the care of the aged is an escalating problem, and when one looks at the President’s Council Report of the Committee for Social Affairs on the Socio-Economic and Spatial Implications of Ageing, it becomes clear that we are dealing with questions in respect of which there are simply no easy solutions to be found.

It is difficult enough already to find solutions to some of the problems that are manifesting themselves in the White communities. In many instances provision can only be made to address some of the serious problems, which arise as a result of the ageing of the community.

It would sometimes appear that the shortage of money is the only obstacle with regard to the care of the aged, but in truth security and loneliness are just as great a problem to the aged person as an inadequate pension or a lack of reasonable accommodation and a fair rental.

It is becoming ever more difficult to provide for the increasing needs of the ageing community because more and more aged persons are becoming dependent on social pensions and other welfare services. It is estimated that 34% of all aged persons will be dependent on a social pension, whilst only 7% of those people retiring now, are financially independent.

Are you going to stand again?

The White population is becoming older and the costs of caring adequately for an aged person are increasing to such an extent that a stage is being reached at which it will simply no longer be possible to care for those aged persons who are dependent on a social pension in the manner in which one would like to do so. Over the past 10 years the expenditure on welfare services has increased by more than 1 000%.

At present few people are providing for their old age, other than by means of some or other pension fund contribution, and unfortunately people are not hesitating to draw their accumulated pension benefits on some or other pretext, and to purchase consumer goods with them.

The burden which this places on the Treasury will ultimately become so great that the scope of the welfare services will, of necessity, have to be scaled down if even the basic needs of the aged are to be provided for.

†The hon member for Yeoville said in his speech that religious people were charitable people. This is, as I have said, true. It is also true that the Jewish community are mostly religious people and that they are indeed charitable people. The Jewish community is known as a community which cares for the aged.

*What is the position in the Afrikaans community, however? Can we still stay that the Afrikaner is generous and charitable when it comes to care of the aged? Can we still say with pride that the aged person in our community is occupying the place of honour which he deserves? Is it not true that the aged person who is dependent on a social pension, is conveniently forgotten and pushed aside because he or she can no longer entertain and give treats?

I want to replace the word “religion” in the case of the Afrikaans community with the words “neighbourly love”, and I want to tell the hon member for Yeoville that the person who still knows what neighbourly love is and who attempts to apply it, normally also has an open hand for the aged person and very often relieves the loneliness which the aged person experiences.

It would appear to me, however, that the words “neighbourly love” have taken on a new meaning for the Afrikaner, and that love of one’s own culture and love of oneself has in many respects made room for neighbourly love.

I wonder whether the many young Afrikaners, men and boys, who followed their leader with so much love and compassion both in and outside the court building in Krugersdorp, and who even sacrificed a day’s pay to display their love for their leader and his culture…

Do you still believe in White buses?

Order! This is the second time that an hon member has made totally irrelevant remarks in such a loud voice across the floor. This must come to an end. The hon member for Maraisburg may proceed.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

I wonder whether those young Afrikaners would be prepared to do the same for the many lonely aged persons who would appreciate even the slightest sign of affection, and any financial support, just as much that cultural leader.

It is important that everything possible be done to care for the aged person in his or her own home for as long as possible. Most local authorities reduce the property rates which pensioners pay, subsidise the fares on municipal buses and give discounts to aged persons for other services in order to encourage the aged person to live in his or her own house. Larger local authorities offer recreational facilities through the Parks and Recreation Division wherever these are not offered to the aged person. I should like to see local authorities become even more involved in the welfare of the aged person who mostly lives alone. I am sure that it is possible to make better use of the existing facilities such as community halls, with slight modifications, and that with the support of the community it will not be necessary to increase taxes for these services.

The Hoek Commission discouraged the rendering of welfare services by local authorities, and I should like this aspect to be reconsidered, in the light of a changed community.

I want to appeal for a compulsory contributory pension scheme as an own affair, for the greater involvement of local authorities in the care of those aged persons living in houses or flats, and for more of the neighbourly love about which the Afrikaner learnt at his mother’s knee.

I want to thank everyone who has had the privilege of making a tangible display of neighbourly love to an aged person during the past year.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Pietersburg had some rather interesting issues to raise with regard to own affairs health. I certainly intend taking this matter further but will obviously adopt a different tack to the one that he adopted.

It is appropriate in the light of recent developments to talk yet again of the fragmentation of health services in this country and the ghastly effect it is having on these services. Just before this debate last year, the Medical Association of South Africa rather interestingly put out a statement condemning the fragmentation of health services. It said in particular, and I want to quote:

I want to place particular emphasis on the statement that such a situation, it says, is conducive to friction, red tape, time wasting and ineffectiveness. That is what Masa had to say.

A year later, almost to the day, the influential College of Medicine, in a report entitled “The Future of Medicine” says, and I quote again:

This is also a very interesting statement.

This particular report goes on to emphasise the need to focus on the development of a more unified health care service and the recognition of a central role of academic medicine and the training of health care personnel. I wish to emphasise again, for the hon the Minister’s sake, this particular college’s total opposition to the continued fragmentation of health services.

Despite the constant opposition from important bodies such as Masa, the College of Medicine and nearly every single medical practitioner in the country, the Government continues to move ahead with its own affairs system of health services, and only recently a further example of the ruthless implementation of what can be called nothing more than “apartheid medicine” was enforced. I refer to the decision taken by the Government to declare Johannesburg’s J G Strijdom Hospital an own affairs hospital for Whites with the result that this hospital will no longer be a teaching hospital. This particular point was raised by the CP as well but, as I emphasised, we will adopt a different approach to this.

For many years that hospital has served a far greater community than only the White community. It has been a teaching hospital of note. I want to ask the hon the Minister why this decision has been taken now and whether the staff of this particular hospital was consulted in any way. I believe that the repercussions of this decision will be felt for a long time because it is going to affect greatly both the staff at this hospital and a large number of patients who have been attending this hospital for many, many years and who will suddenly find themselves deprived of this facility.

A very full and very detailed report appeared in the Sunday Tribune of 7 May and it indicated that almost immediately following this decision, the superintendent and 12 specialists of this hospital resigned in the belief that the staff and the patients had become the victims of political manoeuvrings. That, of course, is exactly what the situation is. They are victims of political manoeuvrings. The decision taken is a racial decision, based on the politics of the governing party. The hon the Minister may shake his head but that is certainly the fact of the situation.

I want to tell the House of the many tragic phone calls I have received mainly from elderly people who have been attending this hospital for many years, but who now, because of the colour of their skins, may no longer be able to do so. For many this will mean tremendous inconvenience, for example, taking long trips by bus in order to get to their correct “own affairs” destinations. In particular it is an insult of gross proportions to these people for not being White.

The hon the Minister in charge of this Vote is not directly responsible for this decision to declare the J G Strijdom Hospital an “own affair”. Hospitals generally fall under the control of the provinces. However, I would like to presume that he was consulted in this regard. I presume too he would be consulted if the Government were contemplating a similar decision with regard to other hospitals in this country, for example Addington Hospital in Durban, which for many years has accommodated both the Coloured and the White population there.

If the J G Strijdom Hospital can be declared an own affairs hospital without seemingly any consultation with staff—without any consultation with anybody for that matter—can the same thing happen to, for example, Addington? Can we suddenly expect to find this hospital—with only a 60% bed occupancy rate in any case—being declared for Whites only as the Government ruthlessly enforces its policy of fragmenting health services in this country? [Interjections.]

Much the same argument with regard to own affairs health must be advanced in regard to own affairs welfare. Despite the hon the Minister’s attempts in this debate last year to justify the fragmentation of welfare, there certainly is much evidence around the country and in all areas of welfare that fragmentation is in fact a weakening factor in the provision of welfare in South Africa. The latest piece of evidence in this regard comes hot off the press in a special issue put out by Child Welfare which falls under the auspices of the SA National Council for Child and Family Welfare. In this Special Issue Report stress is placed on the large number of welfare structures that exist for each population group and the difficulties this creates. It proposes among other things:

I find it very interesting that the Child Welfare Organisation is prepared to add its name to the list of organisations and political groupings that see the urgent need to move welfare away from an own affairs situation. To regard welfare as an own affair is indeed a reflection of the Government’s attitude to people and the strange and unnatural belief it has that different groups of people have different needs. Welfare touches everyone regardless of race.

I want to move briefly onto another point that I think the hon the Minister will be interested in and that is the introduction of a Childline Service under the control of his Department of Health Services and Welfare. This was announced by him recently. For many years Childline has been a service, started in Durban, to prevent child abuse—a 24-hour telephone service which could be used either by abused children themselves or by others who knew of children who were being abused. The decision to extend this service nation-wide is an excellent one, particularly in view of the wide-ranging, ever-increasing cases of child abuse in this country.

The horror of child abuse and the sexual abuse of children in particular was heightened only yesterday by reports in the newspaper of the recent death of a member of a child sex ring from Aids. The link between Aids and child abuse has serious connotations for the future of this society.

The decision, however, to introduce a Childline Service on a national basis is a good one, although it is not yet clear to me why the Government regards child abuse as an own affair. When I raised this matter in the Vote on National Health and Population Development recently I indicated then, as I do again now, that child abuse is rife amongst all race groups and is certainly not something peculiar to Whites only.

There are several questions, however, which I would like to take this opportunity of asking the hon Minister with regard to this nationwide Childline Service. Firstly, I would like to ask when it is to be introduced. Does the hon the Minister anticipate that it will come into operation during the course of this year? Secondly, I am sure the hon the Minister will agree that the service is one which requires highly trained personnel. Enormous damage could be done by personnel who have not developed the necessary skills to receive and handle the phone calls. I personally attended a very interesting seminar and the skills required in handling phone calls in order to be effective, are great.

The whole question of counselling, of course, comes into this afterwards. It was a very interesting seminar and I was very glad I had attended it. However, I do caution in saying that the amount of skill required is great. I would like to ask the hon the Minister who is going to handle these phone calls and how the training is going to be done.

I believe that child abuse is the most frightening social phenomenon at present because it has such far-reaching and serious implications for our society, not only for the present, but for the future as well. It is indeed pleasing that a service such as Childline is now going to receive the backing and hopefully the financing of the Government. It has been a totally voluntary service up until now in the Durban area alone, and it is a pity that it was not nationalised some time ago.

I do want to give credit here to an organisation in Durban known as “Fighting Chance” for its tremendous endeavours over the past four years to raise the funds for the Childline Service. With the help of this organisation many hundreds of children have been helped and maybe, in fact, saved from serious physical and mental scarring as a result of child abuse.

I want to move briefly onto the care of the aged. I am sure there will be many hon members in this debate—we have had some indication of this already—who will speak on this topic, and the question of social pensions will be raised often. I want to say in all honesty that I believe that the hon the Minister was recently totally unconvincing—last week in fact—when he spoke in reply to an interpellation which I put before this House as to whether the Government intended increasing social pensions or not.

I believe that the Government’s attitude towards social pensions is totally inadequate. [Interjections.] I do not intend speaking at any length on this topic now. I believe that my colleagues will follow in this regard. However, I do want to point out again that the social pensions offered by this Government are totally inadequate. With the inflation rate at somewhere between 15% and 31%, as we hear now, these pensions become even more inadequate.

I want to ask, as I did before—time cut me short last week—in regard to the R1 billion which the Government has set aside for its election handouts, including the 10% salary increase for the SATS employees, the amazing benefits to the farming community by way of the R460 million maize deficit being written off, the handing of expensive Swiss watches to Government employees as long service awards, to name but a few, why this Government has not seen fit to make this money available to welfare in this country, and in particular to the care of the aged and most definitely for social pensions.

Care of the aged goes way beyond social pensions only. It obviously includes among other things the care of the aged in old age homes and the provision of frail care centres for the aged. What is of growing concern is the lack of finances available for new projects for old age and frail aged care.

The subsidy for the provision of facilities and equipment for frail aged care was altered drastically two years ago. It is clear that the Government has been unable to revert to the previous formula because of the shocking state of our economy.

Consequently, with the population growing older as a result of modern medicine it is extremely unlikely that in the very near future enough frail aged care facilities will exist to accommodate the country’s needs. I believe this is going to become a major factor in the near future and I ask the hon the Minister whether he has any plans to accommodate the problem as we see it. It is a serious matter and one which requires the hon the Minister’s urgent attention. I believe that far too much pressure is placed on voluntary organisations and welfare organisations to provide this type of facility knowing that if they do not, it is unlikely that they will be provided at all.

In conclusion I believe that the provision of health services and welfare services in South Africa is in need of urgent review. It is going to be interesting to see what the hon the Minister is going to be able to do during the year ahead.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Durban North has touched on a whole host of matters regarding health services and welfare. I would like to shift the spotlight back to child welfare because welfare matters account for 80% of this Vote. I would also like to shift the focus to the question of child abuse. I must say that I found myself agreeing with a number of things that the hon member said. I would further like to concentrate on how this matter is being handled by the welfare authorities.

I make no apology for speaking on this subject again during this parliamentary session. Child abuse has received attention in various debates in the House, both during the law and order debate, the justice debate and the national health debate, as the hon member has pointed out. I think it is appropriate that certain aspects of this very pressing social problem be dealt with again in this debate. It is a good thing that this evil has received so much attention of late because it is necessary to root it out of our society. We must keep the spotlight on it. Our children are our investment in the future of our developing country and they are all needed. We cannot afford the wasted and shattered lives that are the result of child abuse and we must do everything within our power to stop the rot.

The figures are alarming: 568 new cases were added to the list of cases dealt with by the national council in November and December last year alone, so that by the end of the year the council had a total of 2 767 cases on its books. The Police are taking intensified action with the establishment and equipment of the child protection units, resulting in many more cases of child abuse coming to light. As the hon member for Durban North has pointed out, the establishment of Childline, which was started by volunteers in Durban, has also resulted in many more cases coming to light. In my view the Department of Health Services and Welfare should be examining its support for social welfare services and all services in this regard. After all, the social worker is in the front line when it comes to the detection of abuse. The police rely heavily on social workers in the first instance to report cases to them. It is also the social welfare worker who has the responsibility of piecing together these lives which are shattered by abuse and trying to restore these children to normality. I submit that we should take another look at whether this department is in a position to do all that is necessary.

Many feel that what is falling short now, in the light of all the cases that are coming to the fore, is the follow-up procedure on the welfare front. Once a case has been identified the offenders are arrested and charged, but what is being done about the child victims? They are often admitted to and questioned at police stations, a practice that social workers and psychologists universally condemn. The South African National Council of Child and Family Welfare has suggested that admission and questioning should be done at provincial hospitals. The victim is often thereafter retained at the hospital for initial treatment while an attempt is made to sort things out at home, but then, after treatment, the children have to be returned to the community. The question is: To what? Either to a place of safety or sometimes to foster parents. If that is not possible then the victim is compelled to return home.

A recent analysis of child abuse showed that in the majority of cases of sexual and physical abuse the abuser was known or related to the child.

In other words, in most cases a child is abused by a person he knows and loves and he looks to that person for security and protection. It is very often in the home environment that this happens.

Welfare workers believe that these children should not be returned to their homes—certainly not during the initial stages of treatment. The likelihood of their being abused again is very great. Often, however, they are returned home because there is simply nowhere else for them to go. There are far too few places of safety and those available are overcrowded.

A new approach to this whole matter suggests that it is in fact the abuser who should be removed from the home environment and not the abused child. Obviously where a child is returned home, controls are introduced. On the whole, however, these controls are poor basically because we do not have enough social workers available to do the job. In the UK, for example, a social worker does not handle more than eight to ten families at any one time. In South Africa the norm is sixty families and often a social worker lands up with a case load of 80 to 100 families to look after. Under these circumstances it is impossible for a social worker to give the attention needed to individual cases of abuse and molesting.

What are the suggestions of the experts in the face of what I think we must regard as a growing crisis? Firstly, there appears to be unanimity that schools should become involved. Teachers who are in daily contact with the children should be compelled to report cases of abuse in terms of the Child Care Act. At present they are not and I believe that the National Council has suggested that this be amended.

The best method of preventing child abuse is to educate the child. The council suggests that social workers be attached to schools to conduct educational programmes and also that such programmes should be instituted in schools as soon as possible and as widely as possible.

Another major suggestion that has been made is that provincial hospitals should be increasingly used not only for the initial treatment and admission of the victim, but that—taking as an example the unit at the Tygerberg Hospital which deals with the victim on a multiprofessional basis—this unit’s example be followed in other provincial hospitals. The suggestion is that each hospital should have a Child Crisis unit from which the Childline Service could function, that there could be close co-operation with the local child protection unit of the Police Force and that there should be on hand specially trained medical personnel including a social worker and a psychologist to deal with cases.

It is also suggested that such a unit should have a special playroom that is suitable for questioning children, manned by expert personnel who are trained to deal with this sort of crisis. This sort of playroom should also be used for the taking of evidence on video tape for subsequent court cases.

Basically the experts suggest that there should be a comprehensive programme directed at the child abuse victim and his or her family, the perpetrator and the community.

The feeling in all the departments that have to do with this is that a multiprofessional approach is essential with the various disciplines co-ordinating their efforts.

In conclusion, I understand that steps are being taken by the department—at least they are starting to really look at this problem seriously—and that the Interdepartmental Consultative Committee on Social Welfare Matters is considering measures in this regard. I trust that they will soon be in a position to make suggestions to tackle this problem on a multiprofessional basis.

Mr Chairman, I want to thank the hon the Minister for having seen his way clear to making funds available for a 15% increase for old people since the beginning of this year. It is greatly appreciated that funds were available for this.

I believe that, if the hon the Minister had known in what a chaotic condition this beautiful country of ours would be under NP control, he would have made this increase much higher.

We are speaking in an own affairs debate here and I assume it is the wish of everyone in this House to care for the people whom they are talking about today. When we see how the prices of commodities such as butter, eggs, milk—just name them—have risen over the past four months, everybody here will agree with me that it is impossible for an aged person with little or no other income to keep up and stay alive. We have heard over the past few days that differences arose in the calculation of the cost of living index. Everyone now says that this index is far higher than it is represented. I actually want to agree with those who allege this. It is the ordinary man, the worker, who has the greatest personal experience of this.

In fact, these old people feel this even more than anybody who is still working. That is why I should like to appeal to the hon the Minister this afternoon to do everything in his power to establish whether he cannot give old people—I am speaking on behalf of the Whites and about the Whites as we are engaged in an own affairs debate—a further increase this year so that they may also be able to keep up as far as rising costs of living are concerned.

This afternoon I want to dwell on another matter—a very thorny question. This matter deals with Carletonville. We have a home for senior citizens there. There are 104 residential units in Erika Park in which approximately 150 of the aged live. Right next to it is a place called Senatus, comprising 103 residential units, which is occupied by 134 aged people. Then there are approximately 958 aged people in Carletonville. In speaking of the aged, I am referring to people over the age of 65.

As long ago as 1984 the SA Women’s Federation wrote to the Government, the then MP and the then MPC and requested their assistance in establishing whether the ailing aged could be given relief. There is a hospital in Carletonville—the Sybrand van Niekerk Hospital—which has been only about 50% occupied since the day that it was opened. The request was for a portion of this hospital to be made available as a sick bay for the ailing aged. At present there are three empty wards in which 70 beds are unutilised.

The intention was then to use this portion as a sick bay instead of trying to obtain money for the erection of a sick bay at this centre. Up to the present the SAWF has not had any success with this. There has been no reaction either.

When I came to Parliament in 1987, I immediately submitted the matter for consideration. I had quite a number of interviews with the hon the Deputy Minister and I received only promises and promises and still more promises. I note that the hon the Deputy Minister is to speak in this debate this afternoon. I hope that he will surprise me so much today that I… [Interjections.] Yes, as long as I do not have a heart attack. I hope he is going to tell me that the inquiry has been disposed of. After all, so many letters have been written in which it was stated that the inquiry was in progress. When one inquiry has been concluded, however, another suddenly starts. I hope that the hon the Minister will therefore be able to give us a final answer on this matter this afternoon.

As late as March this year the hon the Deputy Minister told me that there was a prospect of good news. Nevertheless I can assure hon members that the SA Women’s Federation in Carletonville are desperate. They would like to do something for the aged there, but their hands are tied. They can do absolutely nothing to make those empty hospital wards available without the assistance of the Government. Those wards are useless but they could be used. An agreement could be reached with the hospital and with the SA Women’s Federation.

This is why I want to turn to the hon the Minister again this afternoon and ask him whether he cannot do something to expedite this matter. Honestly, Sir, there must be something wrong somewhere with a matter which has been dragging on since 1984. Somewhere that so-called red tape must be so knotted that they cannot disentangle it and the time has come for this to be done.

If we cannot have this hospital, I want to appeal to the hon the Minister this afternoon to make funds available so that a sick bay may be erected at this home for the aged so that these people who have to go to Johannesburg in most cases can be assisted. We have two choices—we can either make these wards available or we can make funds available. I am sure there must still be some funds available to do justice to the Whites in South Africa.

Mr Chairman, I am not going to react directly to the hon member for Carletonville except to say that perhaps his own community should become more involved. I understand it is one of the communities with the highest average income in the country. I think the time has come for us to start realising in South Africa that we cannot progress more quickly on the road to a welfare state than we are doing at the moment and that the community must start making a contribution too. That is in fact what I want to talk about this afternoon.

In the first place I want to dwell for a moment on the importance of the own affairs concept. It is quite clear to me that the hon member for Pietersburg definitely does not even understand the policy of the NP in this connection, because he made an appeal here a while ago which was totally unfounded. In the NP policy there is in fact provision for own affairs hospitals. Kempton Park definitely has one and we are very proud of it.

It is important for us to have own affairs hospitals in our communities. A hospital, like a school, is a very personal, I am tempted to say a family situation. When one is ill, one wants to remain in one’s environment among one’s own people and also people of one’s own group. That is why it is a very big problem for us in Kempton Park that our people have to leave Kempton Park and go to hospitals in Johannesburg to be operated on or when they are admitted to hospital seriously ill, after having suffered a heart attack, they have to be transferred to institutions in other cities although there are a number of empty beds in the Kempton Park Hospital. I shall come back to this point in a moment.

It is for this reason that I want to reiterate that the own affairs concept is important, and Kempton Park accepts it totally. We also know that the Government is providing for us in this way.

I should like to refer to another matter too. When one talks about own affairs, one immediately comes up against arguments like those advanced here by the hon member for Durban North, who spoke about fragmentation. I always find it very interesting that the arguments usually come from people who cannot substantiate them properly because they have not made a proper study of this.

It is very interesting that research undertaken for the Urban Foundation by the Economic Research Unit of the University of Natal in 1988, and supported by Peter Forbeck in an unpublished lecture in January 1988, also at the University of Natal, with special reference to the KwaZulu-Natal region, made a very interesting point in this connection. They clearly state that the elimination of duplication can achieve savings in respect of certain legal and general managerial functions. However there will be a growth in the provision of services in a single administration and consequently more bureaucrats will be needed and not fewer. We all know that longer channels of communication can make everything far more expensive.

The present position in Kempton Park is that we have 296 beds available. Of this number 181 are being used and at this stage the bed occupation is higher than 95%. Hon members will therefore understand why the nursing staff are totally overworked.

One can compare this with the ideal ratio of patients to staff, namely 1:1,53. In Kempton Park it has varied between as little as 1:0,9 and 1:1,2. In addition at present we have the situation that 50% of the staff below the rank of staff nurse and sister have less than six months of service. There are 23 senior assistant posts which have been filled, but only six of them have experience. Of the 78 sisters’ posts more than 50% are being filled by part-time and occasional workers. However, it is one of our best training hospitals for nurses in the country.

Kempton Park’s hospital treats from 3% to 5% State patients. The hospital in Kempton Park is therefore ideal to be used as an experiment or as a prototype for privatisation. At this stage the position is that patients who arrive there ill, frequently with heart problems, have to wait for as long as eight hours before they are eventually transferred to other hospitals because they cannot be assisted there. If someone arrives there outside ordinary hours with a broken arm, it is impossible to help him.

At this stage I want to appeal for us to use Kempton Park hospital as an example to see how we can get the community involved. We can also start to introduce privatisation here. Privatisation is attuned to exploiting the free market principle and moving away from the welfare state idea, which causes State poverty and State dependence. The big problem is money, and we cannot solve it in any way. It is of no avail to complain about Black nursing staff. There is no more White nursing staff. We are simply going to have to accept the fact that fewer White girls are interested in nursing.

Privatisation may be a solution in the sense that these people can become involved. My appeal is for us to stimulate privatisation, but we are also asking that it must not be a repetition of the private clinic which already exists in Kempton Park. One has to pay R2 000 to get in there and they do not take casualties either. The initiative of Kempton Park’s people is such that we can accept this challenge.

We will involve the medical practitioners in a company. The management component will consist of professional people, people who know something about financing, and the staff function will be performed by a medical practitioner, probably on a part-time basis, together with the matron so that there can also be inputs from the professional staff. The shareholders can be people who are involved; in other words, the medical practitioners in the town. We have already sounded them out and both they and other nurses are very interested in this.

Today I am asking the hon the Minister and his department to give Kempton Park the opportunity to do this. They must help us to show them it can work. Then we can make all other own affairs hospitals part of the community in the same way.

Mr Chairman, it is a singular privilege to speak after the hon member for Kempton Park. I originally wanted to say that with her looks and my intellect, we would go far. [Interjections.] However, yesterday she got her MBA, and I think the whole House would want to congratulate her. [Interjections.] I have therefore decided to leave the looks and the intellect to her and merely carry on as before. [Interjections.] Since she is wearing red today, I shall not react to her speech, but I do want to congratulate her on a good speech. I rather want to refer to another lady who is leaving us, namely the hon member for Rosettenville. [Interjections.] She spoke about children, and I should like to talk about children’s homes.

As a community develops in time, there are and will always be problems in respect of children who need care.

Intensive prevention services are aimed at preserving the family unit. The object of this is to remove as few children as possible from their homes in any one year. As has been mentioned, this ideal is simply not achieved. There are parents who, owing to their particular circumstances, simply cannot provide their children with the most basic requirements. Unfortunately there are also those children who simply have to be removed from their families. The hon member for Rosettenville referred to these unfortunate children in our society.

As a substitute, a children’s home is one of the ways of providing these children with care. We believe that in these institutions a child is protected, educated and taught the fundamental values. Social workers assist the parents in examining what can be done to restore stability to the family. The ideal must be to return the child to a stable family as soon as possible.

In order to achieve this objective, children’s homes function more as treatment centres in terms of the Child Care Act, 1983. Since the preservation and strengthening of family ties is of vital importance, efforts are made to accommodate the children as close to the parental home as possible in order to encourage parental involvement with the child in the children’s home. They are also encouraged to work together to shape the future of their own children.

Unfortunately a while ago there were complaints about the conditions at some children’s homes. To my way of thinking it is of the utmost importance that the services provided at children’s homes should continually be upgraded. It is true that the hon the Minister, his department and all parties concerned are well aware of the situation, and I believe that they do upgrade these institutions. I should like to express my very sincere thanks to the hon the Minister for what has been done with regard to this process of upgrading.

Although children’s homes are at present undergoing structural changes, there are others that are still in the planning stage. We trust that these will be completed soon. The De Meyer report made certain recommendations, while the department itself undertook in-depth studies in this regard. This led, inter alia, to children being accommodated in children’s homes in small family-like groups of approximately 10. This creates a sense of security in the child in that he or she is part of a family, and is surrounded by a group of people who care. It also gives the children themselves and the staff more lebensraum. Furthermore it is done in accordance with the most recent and most modern standards.

The State sets very high requirements and standards for control boards at children’s homes where such control boards exist. I want to say that these standards are often greatly surpassed for the simple reason that where there is a children’s home in a town, the people of the town take an interest in that home, because our people still care very much about our children. I believe that the department, together with the control boards where applicable, is endeavouring to meet all the spiritual, physical, psychological, social and educational needs of these children.

In order to achieve these praiseworthy objectives, the department must do everything in its power to ensure that this is applicable through out. Today I earnestly want to request that we rectify the shortcomings that still exist, particularly from the initial stage, during which the child is referred to a children’s home, until he is actually placed in such a milieu. We must never create the impression that the child is being taken out of one prison, in other words his home, where things are not going well, and being put into another prison.

We find it very sad that there were 5 221 children in 75 children’s homes at the end of last year. These are the little ones who are facing a dismal future if we do not look after our people’s children. It is therefore with gratitude that one learns of everything that is being done by the department, and also by the dedicated staff who work there every day.

In my constituency there is the well-known Murray Children’s Home. The mere fact that the name of Dr Andrew Murray is attached to a children’s home indicates that one is dealing with quality, dedication and service. This institution is one of 23 that is administereed by the NG Church. The other sister churches of the NG Church have approximately 14 while other bodies such as the ACVV are also involved.

The State makes a very large contribution, particularly in respect of salaries and food. I want to express my thanks for this. The community is also very grateful for what is being done by the State.

I believe that the enthusiasm, the zeal and the dedication which Mr Dolf Etsebeth and his entire staff display at the Murray Children’s Home is also to be found at other children’s homes. These people care for our people’s neglected children. If one thinks of the circumstances which some children have to endure, circumstances too terrible to mention—the hon member for Rosettenville referred to them—these people, the Dolf Etsebeths of this world, are displaying compassion and creating a Christian atmosphere for these neglected children. It is therefore a privilege for me to say thank you to them. It is also my privilege to thank the hon the Minister and his department—I know they are working on this with zeal and enthusiasm—for what is being done.

Our children are not increasing in number. Our children are decreasing in number, and we must all work together towards one day returning these uncared for little children, these neglected and forgotten little ones to our community as valued and useful citizens of South Africa. We must help to make them people in their own right and citizens of our country.

Mr Chairman, in my opinion the hon member for Wellington made a very good speech. Fortunately I am able to say today that I agree with him on everything, and I will not be able to do better than he did as regards this topic.

I should like to confine myself to the Health Services Vote. I listened attentively, particularly to the speeches by the hon members for Pietersburg, Durban North and Kempton Park. It is rather interesting to sit here at the moment, not allied to one of the three parties, and listen to the way in which they concentrate on health services.

Today I should like to say as a doctor, because we doctors concentrate on the patient—we consider him to be No 1—that I find it astounding that the hon member for Pietersburg, who is also a medical practitioner, has such an unacceptable racist political approach to medical services. I cannot believe that this hon member and I both took the Hippocratic Oath.

Is own areas an own affair?

I am talking about health; not about areas.

What about own hospitals?

I merely want to ask that hon member whether he remembers the Hippocratic Oath. I should like to remind him what he said:

I do not read anything about integration in that.

The Hippocratic Oath is the Old Testament of our promise. The New Testament is of course the Geneva Convention Code of Medical Ethics, and I want to ask the hon member about that too:

Does he agree with that?

Yes. [Interjections.]

Very well. I continue to quote:

Does the hon member agree with that, he who talks about own areas? Does the hon member agree that a medical practitioner must abide by this oath and code when he is treating a patient under his supervision who has come to him for his trust and aid?

I remain opposed to integration.

The hon member remains opposed to integration. We must allow them that.

Why can he not be served in another hospital?

The other question I heard was why they could not have their own hospital. I want to tell the hon member for Pietersburg, and I think he will agree with me, that when we were students, there was almost total apartheid in hospital services in South Africa. There were provincial hospitals that had separate wards or there were hospitals that rendered separate services. There were also nurses for every group. A White looked after a White.

The hon member’s old party, the NP, changed. They have now reached the stage where nurses can look after all races. The hon member must tell me honestly why this was done.

Because they have become too liberal. [Interjections.]

No, that is not true. The hon member is deliberately telling an untruth, because he knows as well as I do…

Order! The hon member must withdraw that statement. He may not say that another hon member is deliberately telling an untruth.

Then the hon member is unwittingly telling an untruth. I withdraw the statement. I did not mean it in a bad sense. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister must, however, admit that the NP did not actually change their policy in this way owing to a new approach. Instead they were compelled to do so because there are insufficient White nurses in South Africa, as the hon member for Kempton Park rightly said, to look after all the Whites. That was the reason why they allowed non-White nurses into intensive care units one by one. That hon member can shake his head, but that is the truth. [Interjections.]

In the beginning we had the position that non-White nurses were allowed into intensive care units. Later they were allowed into private hospitals, and now they are also allowed into general hospitals. There was one reason for all this, namely that there are not enough White nurses. We are going to experience the same thing as regards technicians in other services, because the same thing is happening everywhere. There is nothing the hon member can do about it.

Now I want to ask the hon member for Pietersburg, and I hope he is going to have another turn to speak, whether he thinks he is going to get doctors to work in that own White hospital, which he is now going to get?

Ask the Government.

The answer is no. The medical profession of South Africa is going to do the same thing as regards those hospitals as they did in Boksburg. They are going to boycott them and they will not go and work in those hospitals because it is in conflict with everything the medical profession stands for. The hon member can ask any medical association or group in South Africa whether they want to work there and not one of them will be prepared to do so, except a few from the CP. [Interjections.] I also want to ask the hon member how many White nurses in South Africa are going to work in those hospitals.

Many!

Is the hon member going to find nurses in every town in which they have hospitals?

Yes! [Interjections.]

Today I want to tell the patients of South Africa, and every person is a patient, that if they are thinking of voting for that party, which is going to see to it that they are going to lie in hospitals in which there are no doctors and nurses, then they must prepare to meet their Maker.

Mr Chairman, is the hon member prepared to take a question?

Order! Is the hon member prepared to take a question?

Yes, certainly.

How many Black nurses are there for the total Black population, and how many White nurses are there for the total White population?

To be honest, I do not know the percentage. What I do know today, however, is that there are more Black nurses in White hospitals than ever before. I do not know the percentages, but there is no doubt that today there are enough Black nurses to nurse in White hospitals too to relieve the pressure. [Interjections.] I want to tell hon members that there are not enough White nurses and doctors, and they are not going to work in the own affairs hospitals, because we will not accept a totally racist concept in the medical profession. [Interjections.]

You are being racist to the Whites when you say that!

Order! The hon member for Middelburg must give the hon member an opportunity to put his case.

Mr Chairman, I am quite glad he said that, because he is simply proving to me that that is a party which has absolutely no policy, and no idea where they are going. They want to tell South Africa that they want to give us hospitals without doctors and nurses and technicians, but they have no chance of establishing such medical services in South Africa. [Interjections.]

I now want to tell the hon the Minister that it is quite clear to me what is going on at the J G Strijdom Hospital. I know why own affairs are being introduced. The hospitals which are now going to fall under own affairs are hospitals for which the Government cannot get enough White patients. There is pressure from people of colour to have those hospitals thrown open to them…

You are talking nonsense! [Interjections.]

The Government now wants to shy away from its responsibility towards the non-Whites of South Africa by transferring the empty White hospitals, the Kempton Parks and the Sybrand van Niekerks, to own affairs. Do hon members know what is going to become of those beds? [Interjections.] They are going to be used for the aged. The Government is going to change those hospitals into old age homes for Whites and for one reason only, namely to get their corrupt, abhorrent own affairs health policy to work.

That hon Minister and Deputy Minister have no department of health services, and now they are trying to create one by changing these hospitals, which were fitted out to treat patients, which cost a lot of money to fit out, into old age homes. We all agree that the aged must have accommodation, but we do not agree that an expensive hospital should be changed into an own affairs hospital for political reasons. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, the doctors have just had such a good fight among themselves that I am under the impression that they need a theologist to restore the peace. [Interjections.] I shall be happy to do so. [Interjections.]

I wish sincerely to thank those hon members who have taken part in the discussion of this Vote so far. I have listened to the discussion very attentively and with great interest. From whatever angle one views health services and welfare services, and whatever criticism we may offer, one very important fact remains this afternoon, and that is that we should be very grateful to those people who are involved daily in rendering these important services of health and welfare to our community. Regardless of how we may continue to fight here, those services continue every day.

The hon member for Parktown says that we must make this possible for them, but that is precisely what we are doing every day. I readily admit that there are deficiencies in our health services and in our welfare services, but on the other hand everyone involved in these various services is striving to improve them and by so doing to meet the needs of the community.

I want to begin this afternoon with my department, our head office, regional offices and service offices. We have competent staff at our disposal. We have experts, doctors, dentists, pharmacists, social workers, nurses, dieticians, and I could go on in this way—all of whom are people associated with this department, who are rendering loyal, dedicated service every day in the interests of the community of South Africa.

I am thinking of the great love of the members and managements of the welfare organisations, and I want to pay tribute this afternoon to the indispensable voluntary workers of our welfare services, as well as the professional staff of our welfare organisations. We have a corps of voluntary workers in this country who render services of inestimable value. Whilst we are fighting here over trivial matters, these people are rendering a great service with dedication and love to the aged, the sick, etc.

In this country there are a number of homes and institutions, together with their staff. Since I was appointed to this portfolio a year ago, I have done my best to visit as many homes and institutions as possible. I want to say this afternoon that some of the finest people in South Africa are involved with these homes and institutions. That applies from the matron down to the worker in the garden.

Last week I attended the opening of an old age home on the South Coast. How beautiful it was to see the Black choir of the servants of that home perform at the opening, and how wonderful it was to see the enthusiasm and love with which they performed their work.

I want to say this afternoon that the health and welfare people form a wonderful team. There is dedication, love and absolute unselfishness, and I want to praise them for this.

Reference was made here today to own affairs hospitals. What is the concept, and what is it about? In so far as 1 April is concerned, the hon member for Pietersburg asked me to mention the names of all the hospitals. I should just like to refer him to the Government Gazette of 31 March. He probably receives it, too. The names of all the hospitals that have been transferred to the Administration: House of Assembly, appear in it. These hospitals have always existed for the Whites. I did not establish them. Some of them have existed for decades. In other words, all we did upon the establishment of the Administration: House of Assembly for the own affairs of Whites, was simply to identify these hospitals. All those that made provision for Whites to an extent of 95% or more, were identified as White hospitals and after negotiations with the provinces and after discussions with the Administrators and members of the Executive Committees, at which I myself was chairman, they were transferred to my department in the Administration: House of Assembly on 31 March.

All of a sudden the issue of the J G Strijdom Hospital is being raised. Let me tell hon members this afternoon that the J G Strijdom Hospital was suddenly declared an academic hospital quite a number of years ago. Why? It was hoped that a medical faculty would be established at the Rand Afrikaans University. The J G Strijdom Hospital would then be the academic and training hospital for RAU. That medical faculty was not placed at RAU, but at the University of the Orange Free State. Wits subsequently went in and proceeded with training.

I want to make the statement this afternoon that the J G Strijdom Hospital cannot function as an autonomous academic hospital, and I want to advance the following reasons for this. There are, for example, only 10 beds for gynaecology, 6 for urology, 2 for orteorhinolaryngology and 6 for trauma, and these are decidedly inadequate for undergraduate and postgraduate training. Not one of the departments has a professor or a chief specialist at its head who is based at the J G Strijdom Hospital. All the “departments” fall under the professor or chief specialist concerned at the Johannesburg Hospital.

What is wrong with that?

What is wrong with that, is that the J G Strijdom Hospital is not primarily an academic hospital. It is true that training is provided, but I have enumerated the facts here. It is not primarily an academic hospital!

Now, however, we have taken over this hospital. Discussions took place with the Transvaal Provincial Administration, under whose control this hospital was. My colleague the hon the Deputy Minister held the discussions at my request, and he held discussions on 2 May at which the superintendent of the J G Strijdom Hospital, Dr Van der Merwe, was present, at which the chairman of the hospital board and the council was present and at which the chairman of the advisory board was present. It was decided on that occasion that they would now become calm. On 17 May my colleague also went to see the rector of the University of the Witwatersrand.

What happened then, before the hon the Deputy Minister had arrived back in Cape Town? Dr Van der Merwe said that she had resigned, and she appeared in every newspaper and on television, and whenever I switch on the radio, I hear Dr Van der Merwe. I want to ask this afternoon who made a political issue of the J G Strijdom Hospital. [Interjections.] If Dr Van der Merwe, Mr Chairman, has secured an appointment at another hospital which offers her better benefits and she has accepted it, she ought to stand up like a woman and say that she has secured better benefits, but she ought not to drag the J G Strijdom Hospital into politics.

I issued a statement—if the hon member for Pietersburg has not read it, I shall be happy to furnish him with it—in which I clearly set out the procedure that had been followed, and in which I stated very clearly that conditions at the J G Strijdom Hospital would not change. The only change is that the Administration: House of Assembly is to be given control of the buildings. The Administration: House of Assembly is to obtain control of the hospital, but the province will continue to attend to the functioning of that hospital on an agency basis, and there is no interference whatsoever from our side.

A reporter from Business Day phoned me on Sunday, and the lady in question wanted to know all about this hospital. She wanted to know what changes had taken place, and I told her that she should inform Dr Van der Merwe as well as myself. I told that reporter that nothing whatsoever was taking place. She inquired of me whether patients of colour would now also be admitted to the hospital. Approximately 5% of the patients there have always been people of colour, being the overflow from the Coronation Hospital. I told her that of course we would continue with this. They may continue to admit those patients, because it is a training hospital. The reporter then inquired of me whether these would only be old patients or whether they would also be new patients. [Interjections.] I simply told her that the old ones were probably healthy, that some of them were probably dead, and that we would naturally also admit new ones. She told me she would publish these things in Monday’s edition of Business Day because they were a revelation to her. I am still waiting for that report, because once one has given the actual and correct facts to that sector of the Press which is not well disposed to these matters, they do not publish them.

I want to repeat here this afternoon—my colleague will discuss this at greater length—that the J G Strijdom Hospital will continue to render health services and hospitalisation to patients, and if it is not going to do so, then the blame for this lies squarely at the door of those doctors who took that wonderful oath which the hon member for Parktown has just read out to the hon member for Pietersburg. Surely it is precisely the same thing. If the hon member reproaches the hon member for Pietersburg because he wishes to apply apartheid, as the hon member says, then surely the hon member must also reproach those fellow doctors of his who resigned from that hospital. They must not say over the radio that it will not be possible to treat the patients.

I want to say this afternoon that the J G Strijdom Hospital is at their disposal and that it is at the disposal of the University of the Witwatersrand, which is, after all, an own affairs university. Why does that university not rather say no thank you, we do not want the allowance? Why did they not turn it down? If they are suddenly elevating the J G Strijdom Hospital to something terrible, why do they not say no thank you to the allowance which comes from the Administration: House of Assembly? I challenge them to do so, because hon members see, they cannot do without those funds.

I want to make an appeal to the hon member for Parktown as a doctor to tell his fellow doctors that the J G Strijdom Hospital is to continue in the same way as it has always existed and functioned.

When are you going to open it up?

The hospital has always been open.

Surely the hospital is an own affair. How does one explain that? [Interjections.]

I told the hon member for Pietersburg at the beginning of my speech that we have identified it. 95% of the patients were Whites. 5% of the patients were people of colour. We shall continue in this way. If those patients come to the hospital, they may be treated there. We shall continue with that. In other words this hospital will simply continue in the manner in which it has functioned previously. I hope and trust that this will dispose of the matter.

No, it has not been disposed of!

The hon member for Pietersburg wants to know what our policy is. I have clearly spelt it out to him. There are 44 hospitals here which have existed for years and which have made provision mainly for Whites, and they are going to continue to exist in this form.

We are experiencing problems at these hospitals. There are not always enough patients. We are experiencing a lack of staff. That is why this is happening—and the hon member for Carletonville referred to this—in the Sybrand van Niekerk Hospital. Why is that hospital not full of White patients? It is a White hospital. Why is it not full of White patients? I now want to ask the hon member for Pietersburg: Can he not help the hon member for Carletonville? Then they could fill that hospital with White patients. [Interjections.]

After all I cannot go out and manufacture White patients. I cannot go and manufacture White patients and fill the Sybrand van Niekerk hospital, the Kempton Park hospital and the rest of the 44 hospitals. Surely I cannot go throughout the country making people sick and telling them that now they must go and lie in those hospitals. These hospitals exist and we shall treat those Whites who are admitted to them, just as these hospitals have always done. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Carletonville made a good request. He will recall that I told him that we only took over control of the hospitals on 1 April 1989. They fell under the province of the Transvaal. Our investigations, to which he also referred, have virtually been completed. It was a very good appeal which he once again made. It was a good case which he made out for the Sybrand van Niekerk Hospital. We could use that hospital for the aged who are also in need of that hospitalisation. I promise the hon member that we shall take speedy action now that these hospitals are under our control. We would like to dispose of this as quickly as possible.

Of course—the hon member for Parktown—we cannot allow wards to stand empty. Let us give them to the aged who are in need of them.

Whites?

Yes, Whites.

That is right!

Of course, for Whites. I cannot place every aged person in those hospitals, because it is not a good thing to send aged persons generally to hospitals.

The hon member for Kempton Park made an appeal for the privatisation of the hospital at Kempton Park. We are going to take a look at some of these other hospitals as well with a view to privatisation so that they may be utilised in the interests of our people.

The hon member for Pietersburg referred to the actions of nurses at private hospitals and said that he was going to report them to the Nursing Council. Of course, I think he should have done so a long time ago. Our nurses are under an oath and they, too, must adhere to the oath they have taken, as must be done in any profession.

Whenever a private hospital is erected in a White residential area, an application is made to us. Where it provides for the White community, a certificate to that effect is issued to it. If it also wishes to accommodate patients of colour, it applies to the province concerned, which then permits it to do so.

We shall find private hospitals which accommodate only Whites. We shall find other private hospitals which accommodate people of colour as well. We shall find hospitals which are situated in White areas which actually lay the emphasis on White accommodation. Insofar as our policy in relation to our hospitals is concerned, I believe that people would like to be in wards among their own people. That is so.

Is there such a hospital in the Peninsula?

Yes, the Volkshospitaal, which we took over on April and which we are in the process of renovating—a wonderful hospital, the Volkshospitaal; we are once again going to make it the Mecca of hospitals.

Private hospitals?

Private hospitals? I am not sure, but there are private hospitals here, but they also accommodate people of colour. They have obtained that certificate. They have applied to the province and that certificate has been issued to them.

Only White nurses?

No, there are non-White nurses as well. The hon member has answered correctly. Of course there is also a shortage of nurses. We have therefore employed non-White nurses.

The hon member for Rosettenville and the hon member for Durban North referred to child abuse.

†I have long been concerned about the incidence of child abuse in our society. In order to provide a free around-the-clock crisis intervention service for children and families in distress the department is now instituting a fully-structured after-hours service on a country-wide basis. This means that professional help will be available to deal with family crises on a 24-hour basis.

*Perhaps I should expand on this, however. The reinforced police action since 1987, together with the associated publicity pertaining to particularly the sexual molestation of children, has captured the attention of the community and made it aware of the evil in its midst. Hopefully the community will now also be more prepared to report such cases. Largely as a result of the publicity, people now want to become involved and to help. It would appear, however, that those well-meaning people are nevertheless working in isolation. The problem is being viewed one-sidedly, in accordance with the point of view of a specific discipline. Consequently, cases which are dealt with in this manner are being excluded from comprehensive family care services. The hon member for Rosettenville has already made an appeal in favour of comprehensive family care services. A one-sided intervention or process of assistance therefore actually promotes that which is to be prevented, namely the disintegration of the family.

The department has accordingly scrutinised the entire method of dealing with child abuse, and services relating to child abuse will henceforth be structured as follows in a specific community.

Liaison units for child abuse will be established at all the service offices of this department. The deputy regional head, officer or official appointed by him will act as chairman of a unit. Such a unit will consist of all the various bodies which render services in some or other form with regard to the abused child.

The aim of the units will be to promote closer liaison and negotiation between the individual bodies, with a view to a well structured and co-ordinated service at ground level, which will be able effectively to tackle the problems of the local community at the treatment and prevention level. Aside from the liaison units, an after-hours social work service for emergency cases will also shortly be made available.

Social workers of the department and of welfare organisations that are prepared to take part in this after-hours service, will render service after hours as a team on a rotation basis. Let me make this clear. We shall pay those people for that after-hours service.

In order to encroach as little as possible on the private lives of the social workers, use will be made as far as possible in the larger urban areas of the paging machines of commercial transmitting stations in rendering the after-hours services. These calls will be redirected to a national despatch centre, which will be based at the Tutela place of safety in Pretoria.

The national despatch centre will be manned by social workers. Those requesting this service will receive counselling and an attempt will be made to bridge the problem temporarily until the following working day. If this is not possible, the despatch centre will request the social worker on duty in the area in which the applicant lives, to visit him in order to render the required services on the spot. The necessary control measures are being built into the system in order to ensure that every case which is reported, will receive the required attention.

National and provincial councils of family organisations have been informed in writing about the project, and they have also been invited to participate in it. They have also been asked to promote the project among their affiliated branches.

It may be expected that calls will also be received from members of the other population groups. Provisional discussions were held on 9 January this year with representatives of the other own affairs welfare departments and departments of the provinces which are responsible for welfare services to Blacks. During these discussions the other own affairs departments were invited to make use of the department’s infrastructure in setting up an after-hours service of their own to which emergency cases could be referred for immediate attention. Alternatively, those cases which contact the despatch point will be referred to the department concerned on the following working day. Follow-up discussions are being planned to dispose of the final arrangements.

Discussions have already taken place with the SA Police in order to achieve co-operation. The Police support the project and will promote it. An arrangement has been made at the request of the SAP for a senior official of this department to assist the SAP in the presentation of a number of lectures at the training courses which are to be offered to the Police officers of the child protection units.

Senior officials of the department visited the major service offices as early as during January 1989. The procedures relating to the liaison units and the after-hours services were explained to interested persons and organisations. At this stage I cannot furnish a precise date on which the service will begin. The toll-free telephone service is in the process of being installed. There is a problem with the number because the number which we have been given will change again on 1 July. We shall defer the matter so that we may possibly be able to begin with this service just after the end of June. There are still certain pieces of equipment that have to be installed, and I am convinced that we will then be able to render a service to the public of South Africa in terms of which trained social workers will be immediately available and psychologists and all those people who must be involved, will be able to render assistance. By so doing we shall be able to render a total service to people who have been molested.

I shall leave the matter at that for now, and I shall furnish answers to other hon members’ questions at a later stage.

Mr Chairman, it is truly a pleasure for me to follow up on the hon the Minister and I must admit that after the theologist started speaking, a wonderful calm descended over this House for a short while. I gladly succeed the hon the Minister. [Interjections.]

In the past health services were synonymous with hospital and curative services. Today people regard modern medicines as panaceas and today’s medical practitioners as superhuman beings who can heal all their ailments, however far advanced, in a flash.

It reminds me of the man who thought the same way, and by the time he reached his doctor, he was told that he had a very serious ailment and that he only had 12 hours left to live. Of course he was very shocked and since the doctor felt sorry for him he decided to close his consulting rooms for the rest of the day. He then took a bottle of KWV sedative from the shelf and a few hours and two bottles later the doctor told the patient: “I really must go.” The the patient said: “Oh, doctor, do drink one more with me.” The doctor replied: “Man, it’s easy for you to speak, but I have to go to work again tomorrow.” [Interjections.] Had he come earlier, the doctor could possibly have prevented it.

Today the doctors in the hospitals only treat people who are already sick, and sometimes they are blamed for being more concerned about the disease than about the health of the patient. Dionysius said once: “Doctors may be good for your disease but they are bad for your health.”

Now I have to admit, to the detriment of the medical profession, that in some cases it is true. The present-day physicians should be more attuned to preventive medicine, because it is by far the most effective and most cost-effective treatment. Therefore they ought to spend more time on this.

The conditions which may be prevented are legion. The more well-known are the infectious virus diseases such as smallpox and polio which have been completely eradicated by effective immunisation programmes and hardly ever appear today. Other well-known diseases are children’s diseases such as measles, diphtheria, rubella, mumps and whooping cough, which are also controlled effectively by immunisation programmes.

Today, however, I wish to discuss a few other important conditions. Firstly, I wish to refer to mental disorders. In the past mental health services were primarily aimed at the treatment of psychiatric ailments. Mental disorders are far worse than other diseases. There is a stigma attached to psychiatric conditions and people have a fear of psychiatrists, mainly as a result of ignorance. That is why it is becoming increasingly important that these conditions are combated in a preventive manner. These days we can prevent these conditions by early evaluation and treatment. Mental health can also be promoted by programmes to change the lifestyle of communities, including the abuse of alcohol, pills and tobacco. In this way the harmful consequences can be restricted.

Secondly, I wish to refer to motor accidents. In 1986 alone 9 343 people were killed on our roads in accidents in which approximately 622 000 vehicles were involved. This represents an estimated loss of approximately 315 000 potential years of life. Deaths as a result of motor accidents constitute approximately 16% of the deaths which result from unnatural or external causes in the Republic of South Africa. To prevent this slaughter, the training is one of the factors that will once again have to be reviewed. That is, the presentation of courses for all bus drivers and minibus drivers, as well as for the training of pedestrians in the use of roads and pedestrian crossings—to mention only a few. This education must be done on a continual and prolonged basis. Pedestrian deaths comprise 46% of all deaths.

Thirdly, I want to refer to occupational diseases. Occupational diseases can be prevented by the creation of better working conditions for workers in their workplaces, as well as in the improvement of the education of workers in order to make them aware of the dangers inherent in the industry in which they work. A healthy worker is a happy worker.

Fourthly, I want to refer to family planning. It is only logical that the fewer people there are, the fewer the diseases. Therefore family planning plays an extremely important role in the population development programme. If it does not succeed, it can be catastrophic for our wonderful country. In my humble opinion the best investment which the State can make is to invest large amounts of money in our population development programme. In the long run it could reap the best dividends and could also be the best way to prevent diseases.

The Department of Health Services and Welfare in the Administration: House of Assembly hopes to provide the White community of our country with multidisciplinary health and welfare services from certain of the 44 own affairs hospitals. This concept is in line with the extension of the own affairs concept. It may just as well be investigated by the other two Houses, because it is pre-eminently a community-orientated service and the model can be adapted in accordance with the needs of the specific community.

From these multidisciplinary centres, services such as hospital, district surgeon, mental health, social and school health services, as well as the care of the frail aged, can be rendered under one roof.

Talking about school health services, this service is celebrating its seventy-fifth birthday today. It was started in 1914 by Dr Louis Leipoldt and is the oldest health service in our country. The school medical officer and the school nurse are really in the front line of the fight against disease and accidents. The contribution which they make towards the nation and our country is incalculable. Often the good work they do is only recognised much later, if at all. I therefore pay homage to these 16 medical officers and 144 school nurses who care for the approximately 1 million White school children in our country.

Mr Chairman, I read yesterday that it had been announced that the officials of the Department of Transport Affairs were going to receive a 10% increase. When appeals were made for the increase, there were no funds available but suddenly, out of the blue, a 10% increase is granted. Why?

The big issue for the NP is the election on 6 September. That is why they are trying to canvass votes. I also expect that White pensioners and others are going to reap the benefits of an increase in pension this year. That is what I expect. There are sufficient funds. What is the situation with regard to the R1 000 million for unforeseen expenses which was budgeted for? The hon the Minister should dip into that. I believe that there will also be a few rands for our elderly White people. The issue for the CP is the profound and urgent need of our beloved mothers and fathers who are suffering in their old age.

Most of the visits we receive at our offices in our constituencies deal with two matters. These are the crowding out of the Whites by the non-Whites in the White homeland, but also the poverty and misery which has crept up on and destroyed our elderly people like a thief in the night.

These days I hear a refrain of parity from almost every NP member. Sometimes it is also the main theme of the speeches these hon members make. It is parity and more parity. Where are we going to find the funds to fulfil the heartfelt desire of the NP in the sphere of pensions? I see that in their preview for the year 2000 the President’s Council has calculated that R5,8 billion will be required for old age pensions for all population groups. Only 12% of this amount will be spent on White aged and more than 70% will have to be paid to the Blacks.

Where on earth are these funds going to come from? As it is, the economic sector is complaining, and rightly so, that they are being overburdened with taxes.

All that I see is that our own aged are being impoverished and neglected by the NP as a result of a misplaced idea of parity. Why do I use the word “neglected”? Since the legislation which controlled influx was abolished by the NP, few days pass without us hearing about the coldblooded murder of some White pensioner or other or of an elderly White couple. During the past few days we heard about one of our predecessors who was murdered in a tragic manner.

The NP is often more concerned about the well-being of vagrants than the well-being of our own senior citizens. [Interjections.]

Order!

When last did the NP adjust the means test? I want to state this afternoon that the NP is neglecting our aged. We make that allegation quite justifiably.

According to statistics the value of the rand decreased from 100 cents to 65 cents between October 1985 and October 1988, as far as buying power is concerned, but the means test has not been adjusted. It is quite obsolete. Why has there been no adjustment to the means test for our aged since 1985? What is the matter with the Government that they cannot ask the department to adjust it so that our aged can be placed on a better scale? Why is the Government neglecting our senior citizens so badly? Let us also consider a compulsory pension fund. Unless action is taken to make more and more citizens self-reliant in their old age, this country is headed for bankruptcy. I want to ask the hon the Minister to attend to this during the remaining few months in which he will be Minister.

Until 6 September!

Yes, it will probably be until 6 September. Yesterday I returned from my constituency, and I arrived at Parliament today with joy in my heart after I had heard what was in the hearts of my people. [Interjections.]

The CP is certainly going to look at the best methods of providing a better, happier and more carefree old age, especially in the spheres of finance and security, because these people realise today that the NP has neglected them in these spheres.

Mr Chairman, no one will blame me for confusing the hon member for Witbank with the hon member for Carletonville. The hon member for Carletonville has just made an appeal for increased pensions for our elderly people. Immediately after that the hon member for Witbank said that if we did that it would just be another election gimmick. He also mentioned the homes. We have a great deal of sympathy with our elderly people, and I do not believe that there is anyone in this House who is not moved by the plight of our elderly people, but to attempt to make a political issue of it is really not done. [Interjections.]

He complained about how these people have been neglected in terms of percentages. I can give him the assurance that according to the inflation index or the consumer price index, our pensioners have done better than those indexes suggest. [Interjections.] We would like to do far more in that regard, but I think the hon member should do some homework. [Interjections.]

He also made racist remarks with regard to crowding out. Two days ago I read about a White man in a newspaper—he happened to be a CP—who was classified as Black for 20 months without knowing it, and the traumatic drama which he apparently experienced. I can only wonder how the poor hon member for Witbank would survive a similar trauma of incorrect race classification and that crowding out situation. [Interjections.]

†The population of South Africa is at present increasing at an average of 2,3% per annum. Should this growth rate continue, the present population of 28 million will increase to 47 million in the year 2000 and more than 80 million in the year 2020. If the population keeps growing at this rate, the provision of health services will simply be beyond the means of our country.

Estimates indicate that total health expenditure as a proportion of total expenditure increased from 5% in 1975-76 to a current 10%. In the current year it approaches, in terms of money, R9 billion, of which State expenditure exceeds R5 billion.

One thing is certain. The need for health care can never be entirely satisfied. There will always be an excess of need above the capacity of the economy to satisfy it. Simple arithmetic precludes the possibility of increasing health expenditure per capita. Economic imperatives therefore oblige us to look for alternative and more imaginative health care solutions.

With the foregoing in mind, the Government has embarked on a path of increasing partial privatisation of health services, and for this reason beds in public sector hospitals must in future be made available to private entrepreneurs. The Government may also contract work out to private agencies or sell certain of its facilities out of hand. On the other hand, there must also be the possibility that in certain circumstances State patients can be treated in private hospitals. It is also now accepted policy that the State will no longer erect or operate new hospitals where the private hospital industry could do the same.

*The concept of privatisation of health services is supported by the Government, and on the recommendation of the Commission of Inquiry into Health Services—that is the Browne report—it has also been accepted.

The mixed system of the provision of health services between the private sector and the State offers the best possible solution with regard to the future. The more patients who can be fully or partly treated by the private sector, the more effectively the remaining part of the population can be dealt with by the Government sector.

However, private patients must also have the right to undergo treatment at Government hospitals. The contracting out of certain auxiliary services such as laboratory services etc to the private sector is already receiving serious consideration. The rendering of pharmaceutical services can also possibly be privately managed cost-effectively. A degree of privatisation is already being applied in health services in that private doctors are being used to render the services of district surgeons on a sessional basis. However, we must not simply assume that all services can be privatised. This must be dealt with circumspectly and privatisation must ultimately make provision for all groups of the community, both economic and subeconomic.

Privatisation must also not be the dividing line between greater and lesser services. We must look at uniform services as far as possible with regard to these matters. The private hospitals can participate on all levels of provision of services, and where a vacuum exists which can be put to better use by the private sector, Government hospitals should possibly stand back. Better co-ordination can also take place here. I want to mention the example of the hon member for Parktown’s brother, who had a great deal to say this morning with regard to the magnetic resonance unit and the problems involved in that. By means of this kind of more effective co-ordination between the private sector and the State, in order to facilitate exchange and provide the opportunity for needy Government patients to make use of these services, of course through payment from the State, those problems can also be addressed. However, we must guard against the duplication of the so-called high-tech facilities and avoid the possible over-provision in that regard, which could ultimately lead to increased costs.

The question arises as to why the private industry has grown to such an extent with regard to the hospital industry. We can briefly look at certain of these factors.

The closing of hospital beds in parts of Government hospitals and the shortage of funds and nursing personnel were decisive factors. The urbanisation and ageing of our population, more specifically among the Whites, was a further decisive factor. The growth in medical fund membership was also such a factor. On the other hand, the privatisation policy of the Government has created the opportunity to investigate this health market more closely. Greater awareness of the population with regard to personal health care has also contributed to this, and the other matter is, of course, that private specialists increasingly prefer to do their work in a hospital of their own or in one of these private hospitals.

I mentioned the treatment of Government patients in hospitals which mainly treat private patients and which can possibly be privatised. There are basically four options with regard to the treatment of Government patients in privatised hospitals. The patients can be channelled to other Government hospitals nearby, quite likely in the face of strong objection from the patient himself.

Secondly the private hospital can treat the Government patient and send an account to the State in terms of the present item system which is being implemented. The private hospital can also send accounts to the State in terms of the American basis of a standard tariff which is determined prior to the event, multiplied by the so-called diagnosis related group. According to the American system, all conditions according to which patients are treated are classified in approximately 470 diagnosis related groups. A degree of importance is attached to each such aspect according to which the hospital services can do this. However, it is difficult to calculate this and it is therefore not ideal. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I gladly speak after the hon member for Jeppe, because at least he has brought some meaning to this debate. I wish to refer to the hon member for Witbank. Hon members know, one would think that the old people were not our parents as well. These hon members forget that the growing number of aged in this country is a result of improved medical services. This was most certainly part of the implementation of the NP’s health programmes.

When we speak about health, we must keep to two important words. The one is effectiveness and the other is economy. We must take ideology out of the health services.

Do it!

There is one national health policy for this country; one national, strategic health plan which ensures a dynamically coordinated and rationalised health service, that costs are dealt with effectively and to the advantage of all the inhabitants of South Africa. It is important that the cost-effective service entails the smallest possible expense for the State, and as a result, is the cheapest for the taxpayer, with the greatest possible advantage. That is why I want to refer hon members to the specific costs currently incurred by the Government through the service of the Administration: House of Assembly, to its people.

The percentage of admissions to the own affairs hospitals amounts to 61% of the total at present, as compared to private hospitals which admit 29% of the patients. This is already indicative of the good service we render. If we look at the bed costs, based on the member’s income tax, we see on the proposed new Cape scales that 60% of the members will still qualify for a rebate. I am referring to the Cape scales because they are the latest to have been announced.

Further itemised savings which have been brought about by the own affairs hospitals are those in connection with the cost of medicines. On admission to a hospital, a member pays a fixed amount of R29,50 regardless of the length of the stay. This is a significant saving on health services of the patient, not because it is a subsidy, but as a result of the purchasing system or tender system of the State. In comparison, private hospitals are given the opportunity to add a 50% mark-up on medication—not that they do it, but it means that there may be a profit motive concealed behind the selling of medicine.

A further advantage which the own affairs hospital offers the public is that the costs of the X-ray service amount to R54,50, which is the maximum, and do not include calculation for the number of X-rays which are taken. Theatre costs are also very reasonable and amount to a maximum of R322 per case.

If we consider own affairs hospitals further, we see that they are the final refuge for that member whose medical aid benefits have been depleted, who does not qualify for a private hospital, and who then finally goes to the Administration: House of Assembly for service. If an emergency service exists at these hospitals, then it is the one utilised by all. Who has not thankfully remembered the reliable assistance rendered after a motor accident, an emergency and after a heart attack?

Furthermore one thinks that there could be huge benefits for the State if we were to rationalise further and take the medical aid associations with us. The medical aid association could exercise a good deal of discipline over its members at the moment. It would strengthen the State’s options in extending preventive services if this opportunity for co-operation could be utilised.

These days measles is a disease which can be prevented by immunisation. Nevertheless the responsibility lies neither with the State nor the private sector. The medical aid association has an informed computerised system whereby, by means of programmed methods, it can follow up newly born children for a year and remind their parents so that the necessary immunisation can take place. This means that the administrative costs for the State could be far cheaper.

Diseases which result in immense costs for the medical funds, for example heart diseases and diabetes, high blood pressure and high blood fat, can also be restricted by means of a screening test by all medical aids being compulsory for all members and for which they have to pay—which is not the case at present—and after which existing risks are paid for on varying premiums.

Here I have cigarettes in mind. One pack of thirty cigarettes costs a medical aid association R2. It is a calculated risk which we can determine quantitatively. A person could say that the preventive services of the State could be taken over, privatised or even strengthened by the medical aid association, and that the actions of the preventive services could be more successful, purposeful and specific. [Interjections.] The hon members ask me about wine, but I do not want to speak about it here in the Cape.

As proof of the assertions I have just made, I refer to the fact that approximately 90% of the White population are presently registered members of a medical aid—that is, the economically active population. Those who fall outside these percentages are the pensioners, the aged and a few unemployed. In other words, information on all these persons is contained in data base form.

The Administration: House of Assembly renders a medical service of quality to the White voter, but within its financial means. The emphasising of preventive services leads to further rationalisation and savings for the taxpayer. Co-operation between the State and the medical fund association will result in further savings for the consumer and for the State.

Mr Chairman, I have a problem with the hon member Mrs Jager’s speech, because she began with an appeal for us to remove the ideology from the health policy and the health services, whereafter she immediately went on to praise the own affairs health system. There is a clear inconsistency which the department cannot explain either.

I shall come back to that, but I first want to refer briefly to the hon member for Witbank’s speech.

†He pleaded for a more realistic means test for social old age pensioners and indicated that the means test had not been adjusted and updated for a long time.

Not only has it not been adjusted, but it has actually gone backwards, because as from October last year the fixed property in which an applicant lives is valued at R15 200 and no longer at R9 800, whilst the maximum asset level remains at R42 000, which means that it is actually more difficult to qualify now under the means test than it was a year or two ago.

The means test for social old age pensioners is hopelessly outdated. It results in a situation where many senior citizens who have paid taxes throughout their working lives, who have served this country well and who are in dire need of an old age pension, cannot qualify. They do not get a cent in return for their contribution and this at a stage when the NP spends R460 million of taxpayers’ money to write off the debts of the maize farmers; it spends millions on duplicating health services, such as the own affairs health with which we are now dealing; it is responsible for increased fuel prices, rail and postal tariffs and many others; and it has been unable to curb the inflation rate which is running away.

In these circumstances there is no provision in this year’s Budget for an increase for social old age pensioners. No provision has been made whatsoever. The pensioners are not faced with the prospect of creeping poverty, but with the prospect of galloping poverty. No provision is made in the Budget by the State or the NP to try to assist social old age pensioners in their dire need. [Interjections.]

If one looks at the concept of own affairs health services, the hon member for Kempton Park attempted to justify and defend it. I would prefer to look for advice from the people who are actually directly involved rather than from the hon member who is trying to defend an ideological position.

*Those people who are directly involved in it are the welfare officials and organisations and I am referring specifically to the South African National Council for Child Welfare, which has stated its standpoints very clearly in a memorandum to hon members and to the State. These are people who are actively involved in this on a daily basis and who are far better acquainted with the problems than hon members of this House are. They held a congress at which representatives from throughout the country were present, and at which they discussed their problems and came forward with the following problems which they identified. Firstly they say that one of the most important problems is the fact that there are too many State structures, and I quote from a brochure, Kindersorg, Vol 15, No 2, of April 1989, which they circulated:

That was stated by the South African National Council for Child Welfare.

They went on to say that one of the problems they had was the problem of policy formulation:

A further serious criticism which they expressed relates to future planning, and I quote:

If these types of charges are not damning in so far as the department is concerned, then I do not know. They come from an organisation which renders its services on a widespread basis throughout the country and which is directly involved in this.

A further point which they mentioned was that the welfare policy was not being applied on the basis of parity. They said, and I quote:

People are quick to speak about the concept of parity and it is sometimes said by the NP that parity does, in fact, exist or that it is being pursued, but when we look at the realities it is shocking to see what is happening with regard to allowances received by children who are admitted to registered children’s homes. As I understand it, the position at the moment is that a White child receives an amount of R450 per month, a Coloured child an amount of R422 and a Black child an amount of R200. It is therefore R450 per White child and R200 per Black child. It is own affairs that deal with this. The Whites negotiate with their own affairs department for their allowances and the same happens in the case of the Coloureds and the Asians, but no one is in a position to negotiate on behalf of those who need it most, those who are in Black children’s homes. Nothing is being done by the department with regard to parity, they forget about the allowances which must be paid to those children, and this fact has not gone unnoticed by those welfare organisations who are involved in this.

Furthermore, the South African National Council for Child Welfare says that the department ought to be transformed into one national department—my colleague the hon member for Durban North has already referred to this—and I quote:

That is what one must strive towards if one wishes to deal effectively with welfare problems throughout the country; not with a splinter group of departments which all have their own priorities, which overlap one another and at which the type of criticism to which I have referred, is levelled.

Mr Chairman, before debating the role of the nursing profession and the great challenge ahead as we enter the last decade of this century, I would like to pause for a moment and pay tribute to a truly great South African woman in the nursing profession, Prof Charlotte Searle, who has retired as head of the Department of Nursing Science at the University of South Africa after a lifespan of 55 years devoting her life, her energy and her beliefs courageously, effectively as a leader, campaigning for the nurses of South Africa.

She is indeed the epitome of a truly great nurse, a nurse who has made an impact on the nursing profession of South Africa, an impact which will be indelibly inscribed as an example to be followed and honoured by all who dedicate their lives to this most noble profession, that of nursing.

It is this profession that will have one of the most important roles to play as we enter the next decade and, in fact, the 21st century, a role in the future development of our health services in South Africa.

Dr F C Slabber, the Director-General, is to be singled out and congratulated for his positive contribution and critical but constructive analysis of the key role of the nurse in South Africa today and his reaffirmation that the nurse is essential to the planning, implementation and evaluation of primary health care in the Republic of South Africa.

Yet at a time when the nursing profession faces unprecedented new responsibilities and demands for its services, we do not have enough registered nurses. Despite the increase of nursing personnel since the acceptance of the National Health Services Facility Plan, in 1980 we had 109 195 nursing personnel of all categories registered as compared to 140 719 in 1988. We must question the fact that we do not have enough nurses in the right categories at the right time and in the right place.

I believe that one of the problem areas which must be addressed and given top priority if the nursing profession is to play a pivotal role in meeting the demands of our health service as we enter the next decade is to analyse critically, objectively and impartially the problems which must exist because of the decline in the number of student nurses since 1984, which are as follows: In 1984 there were 13 360; in 1986, 11 818; in 1988, 10 435 and in 1989, 9 955. These figures are an alarm signal that cannot go unanswered and must be solved now.

We know that the situation is further complicated by new advances in medical technology that demand intensive nursing care that rapidly drains nursing power. We realise that there have to be significant numbers of nurses with specialised professional training but what we must also clearly be able to define is the actual and potential role and functions of nurses for primary health care strategy. We must address the different problem areas which are stopping young people from becoming nurses. The situation in the United Kingkom and the United States of America is not unlike ours. They too are experiencing large numbers of nurses leaving the profession for a variety of reasons relating to working and living conditions.

Pertinent questions which have been raised and must be answered if the nursing profession is to fulfil its role in a meaningful way are: Is there an inappropriate utilisation of nursing knowledge and skills? Is there a lack of a voice in the work place? Is there a wide choice of careers? Are the working hours bad? Is there sufficient remuneration? Are the career prospects poor? Is the care of patients in hospitals more demanding and more intensive? Is the ratio of staffing poor? Is there lack of administrative support? Why in the end result is there increasing frustration and stress among nurses?

Why is nursing no longer attractive in terms of their investment and independence? Finally—the most important question of all—is sufficient recognition, respect and dignity being given to the individual nurse as well as to the nursing profession?

Has the time not come when we should allow nurses at grass-roots level to become involved in discussing the problem areas which I have mentioned? This can be achieved by an auxiliary committee meeting comprising nurses with the expertise, the experience and the contact with the neophytes, the students striving for professional recognition. This committee should be a working committee to give their input directly to the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Health and Welfare, with specific guidelines in relation to the criteria for improving working and living conditions.

We know that certain posts, such as in teaching, are not frozen. I believe this should also apply to nurses, whose posts should not be frozen. I believe that the nurses should themselves speak for nurses and nursing and provide evidence as to how they see obstacles such as work schedules, accommodation, transport, essential supplies and equipment, recognition and appropriate rewards.

I sincerely believe another important critical element is direct contact with and recognition by the administration, which currently only recognises the Public Service Staff Organisation and not the Nursing Association. For example, Care to Nurses were given a standby allowance for providing an emergency service but had to be told recently that this allowance had to be stopped. The time consumed, the extended channels through which to communicate their frustrations are such that a feeling of helplessness is the result. Many more of these types of examples have been communicated to me, and this frustration is voiced socially; the message permeates society.

I sincerely believe that it is a prerequisite to overcome the obstacles now confronting the nursing profession. It is in fact imperative that, firstly, an auxiliary meeting with direct representation of nurses be established, and secondly, that the Nursing Association be given direct contact with and recognition by the Commission for Administration. I hope this will meet with the hon the Minister’s support.

Only in this way will we be able successfully to improve the power base of nurses so that they will have opportunities and resources to effective leadership, which are an absolute prerequisite for the success of any primary health-care programme in the Republic of South Africa, which must be based on the expertise of nurses.

We accept that our future health services will be based on primary health care. We accept the important role which the nursing profession will play in the existing and future care of this country. Let us then also accept our responsibility towards nurses as well.

Mr Chairman, I should like to congratulate the hon member Mrs Chait on her well-prepared speech. The tribute she has paid to the dedicated nursing profession is well deserved. The nursing profession will be playing an increasingly important role in the years to come, especially when we move into the field of preventive health care. The nurse should really be well looked after.

*In the limited time at my disposal I should also like to link up with the hon the Minister, who spoke about the J G Strijdom Hospital. [Interjections.] However, before I do so, I just want to say a word of assurance as well as a word of appreciation.

I want to say a word of assurance also for the sake of hon members, and to tell them that the hon the Minister has fully recovered after the last onslaught by the Northern Transvaal team. [Interjections.] I will therefore carry him from match to match—and keep his head and arms above water. [Interjections.]

Next I want to say a word of appreciation to the hon the Minister for the sincere way in which we are able to work together in the interests of a matter which we would both like to serve thoroughly. My thanks to the department and all its people, as well as a word of sincere thanks to my own personnel for what they mean to me.

That brings me to the question of the J G Strijdom Hospital. It is a pity that we are unable to talk about health along the lines of the theme of the Director-General of the World Health Organisation, but that we are actually talking politics in this debate. The question has in fact been asked as to who brought politics into this debate, particularly with regard to the J G Strijdom Hospital. It is very clear to me that the political slip of the superintendent, who has now resigned and accepted another post, is very visible. [Interjections.]

However, I want to say thank you to the superintendent, Dr Van der Merwe, for the fact that she has provided a wonderful service over several years in a hospital which is not becoming segregated now but which has always been a segregated hospital. She has rendered wonderful service there and I wish her everything of the best in the future.

My approach with regard to the question of the J G Strijdom Hospital was very clear in the sense that I said that it was not a matter for a public debate, but a matter which had to be solved around the conference table. I find it interesting that the hon member for Pietersburg could speak so disparagingly about the negotiations which are underway with the university authorities of Wits. It seems to me that the reality of the day has not yet dawned on the hon member for Pietersburg. [Interjections.] His hon leader, who is sitting there in front of him, would have to negotiate every day if he came to power; not only with White people and with people who agree with him politically! He would have to negotiate with everyone every day, and what is more, not only negotiate, but also reach consensus. He would have to come to an understanding. Here the CP’s racist slip or “baasskap” slip is once again very much in evidence! [Interjections ]

Furthermore, I also just want to ask the hon member for Pietersburg, who is so terribly worried when patients from other population groups are admitted to own affairs or White hospitals—I am also asking the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition—what he would do if a Black patient were in serious condition and the only place where he could be helped was in a White hospital. What would his advice be to the superintendent of the hospital? The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition must please reply to that.

Take him to the J G Strijdom Hospital.

The realities of the day—I agree with the hon member for Parktown—force us to do certain things.

Reference was made to certain statements made by the MEC in charge of hospital services at a certain meeting. I was not able to examine them and the point which I should like to make in this regard is that the NP, in the development of its policy, gives recognition to the wishes of the voter. This is what it is actually about and that is why the NP is what it is and that is why the left-wing and right-wing parties are where they are.

Furthermore I want to refer to the statements which were made as a result of the transfer of the J G Strijdom Hospital. It is very clear that the statements were not made as a result of ignorance, because the people ought to know what the circumstances were, but that a serious wilfulness was built into the reaction of the people.

However, I should like to quote what Prof Charlton said according to The Star of 11 May. He was reported as follows:

I am very glad that he said that.

†I think it was a very responsible response to this whole matter.

*The same goes for the deputy superintendent of the hospital, who sent letters to the members of the lecturer corps to urge them to be calm. However, there were people who acted differently. I want to refer specifically to the hon member for Parktown and the dean of the medical faculty of the University of the Witwatersrand, Prof Rosendorf.

†He was quoted in the newspapers as saying that segregated hospitals are out. He followed that with the following statement:

Who is making politics of this whole issue now? They are making politics of this issue. [Interjections.]

You are!

We then come to the hon member for Parktown. He began here this afternoon with a good speech. It was his last speech in Parliament.

Yours as well.

It was a pleasure to have been able to get to know him here. I must say that, since he has become non-aligned and the only member of a party, his speeches have been better than they were when he had people around him. It seems that the other people egged him on to talk nonsense, as he did in the past. [Interjections.]

I just want to tell him that the NP does not regard the idea of one’s own as despicable. He must remember that. The hon member would do well to take that with him to Parktown. I want to ask him whether or not he is interested in the patients of tomorrow. Is he not interested in the doctors who must be trained and who must treat the patients of tomorrow and the next day? It does not seem to me that he is interested. Anyone who subscribes to or advocates an academic boycott, as the hon member did by telling those people to withdraw from that hospital, is acting unethically. [Interjections.]

That is completely untrue!

The newspaper reported that the hon member for Parktown sang in the choir of the boycotters and asked the people to withdraw. I should perhaps ask the leader of the DP or the new spokesman for the DP what they would do if my own colleague in the House of Delegates were to request that Laudium Hospital be incorporated in the training scheme of Wits University. Would they suggest that they did not do so because it was an own affairs hospital? Would he do that?

Yes, of course!

I think that that is a very irresponsible standpoint to adopt. [Interjections.]

When the own affairs concept, as we see it, develops and Black own affairs eventually becomes a reality, and a presidential proclamation is issued to the effect that Baragwanath Hopsital should be transferred to Black own affairs, would the hon member or one of the three leaders of the DP advise the doctors of the Baragwanath to withdraw from the hospital. [Interjections.] Those hon members must think about what they have said.

There is a further matter to which I should also like to pay attention, namely the disturbing article in Rapport of 17 May 1989, in which it was alleged that a communication gap existed between the Ministers’ Council and the Cabinet. I want to state here categorically today that the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, the hon the Minister of Health and Population Development, my colleague here in front of me and I myself are ad idem with regard to the fact that the J G Strijdom Hospital is a training hospital. There is no doubt about that.

Secondly, as the hon the Minister spelt out here, the J G Strijdom Hospital is not an autonomous nor primarily an academic hospital.

Furthermore we have taken note of the course of events since the Commission for Administration was instructed by the Cabinet to lay down certain guidelines, and according to those, Cabinet decisions were made and arrangements were made to facilitate this division of health functions. Furthermore we are ad idem that the Commission for Administration has never been a political advisory body, but that it approached these matters, specifically the question of the J G Strijdom Hospital objectively. In other words, we are ad idem and there is therefore no question of a communication gap. We are ad idem that an own affairs hospital can play a full and equal role in an academic set-up.

I do not now want to go into how and why the hospital has been classified as an own affairs institution. That is history. However, I want to repeat the point that the hospital will remain as accessible to academic personnel from the University of the Witwatersrand as it was before. The practical examples in this regard are the dentistry faculty of the university as well as the Tara Centre in Johannesburg which are both own affairs institutions and where academic personnel from the university have been serving for quite a while. It is therefore not true that academic personnel will not be able to work as a result of the so-called own affairs policy.

The University of Cape Town and the University of Pretoria also have agreements with the Administration: House of Assembly according to which part of the training of certain medical students is done at the Alexandra Care and Rehabilitation Centre and the Cullinan Care and Rehabilitation Centre respectively.

Let me once again give the assurance that the Administration: House of Assembly does not intend to change the existing hospital policy with regard to personnel and the provision of prospective academic personnel and/or patient numbers or any other activity or services which are being provided by the hospital.

There are certain requirements which a hospital should fulfil before a medical faculty can use that hospital for training purposes. It must be accessible. It must be within reach of the students and the people who are supposed to be trained there. It must also have an acceptable infrastructure. It must fulfil a need in the sense that the patient material to which the students are exposed in that institution must be suitable for training. In fact, the same parameters are laid down by the South African Medical and Dental Council when a decision is made with regard to an institution which can be used as a training hospital.

The J G Strijdom Hospital met those criteria before 31 March and until today, with 1 April as the division between the two periods. Why then the rejection and the wave of resignations? There are certain questions which we shall have to ask. There are certain questions which I shall put to the university authorities next week. Examples are the following: Does the hospital no longer meet their needs as a result of the restriction of funds? Are they finding it difficult to train their students? Is the patient material no longer suitable? Is there something wrong with the agreement which may exist between Wits and the Provincial Administration? Surely the fact that the hospital is segregated cannot create a problem, because there was no problem up to and including 31 March. Why would it suddenly have become a problem on 1 April?

Is it not perhaps a way of getting out of a dilemma, because we know that an excess of “academic beds” exists in Johannesburg? The figures which are available indicate very clearly that there is an excess of beds, and is this not in fact a burden for Wits? On the other hand is it perhaps an orchestrated action in an attempt to sink the own affairs ship?

We shall have to ask these question and obtain clarity. We shall then know how to act.

Reference is often made to the status of a hospital, also with regard to this hospital, which would now have lost its status as an own affairs hospital. I can understand that people such as the superintendent and the hospital board would fight for the status of their place, but surely status is not something which is written on a piece of paper. Surely status is something which is earned. Status is in fact something which the J G Strijdom Hospital has earned over the years and of which something wonderful has been made there. Even in the so-called segregated circumstances, it has become a gem of a hospital.

There are no problems, but let me put it as follows. In the process of the building of this status, Wits has played a considerable and significant role, but now the same builders of that structure are destroying it. That is what it boils down to. I want to state clearly that this Ministers’ Council and the Administration: House of Assembly are not in the dock; on the contrary, we have created the favourable milieu in which the threefold mission of such an institution, namely training, research and patient care, can be excellently carried out.

†There is no reason whatsoever why this cannot happen within the framework of the own affairs concept. The University of the Witwatersrand itself, as pointed out by the hon the Minister, happens to be an own affairs university, and this does not preclude total freedom on all issues of principle. The dental faculty, as I have pointed out, is an own affairs institution.

Hon members might well ask what happens next. I am still of the opinion that we should try to come to a negotiated settlement around the conference table. I take it for granted that all parties concerned who will be sitting around the table when I go to Johannesburg next Wednesday will be co-builders in a worthwhile cause.

*In any country in the world people carry out their daily task within specific structures and systems.

†Let us try to find ways and means of cooperating in the interests of humanity.

*Let us not act in such a way that we are guilty of unethical behaviour. Let us restrict ourselves to the matter which is really at stake, that is to say to the patient, the student and the researcher. [Interjections.]

†To discriminate against White patients, or to be a party to reducing the standards of care of patients, is unethical. Furthermore, any student who denies himself the opportunity of treating patients of all sections of the community, including Whites, can hardly be regarded as being properly trained.

This department has a responsibility to ensure that its facilities are available to ensure the highest standard of teaching excellence and we want people to help us to do that.

*I now want to refer to the matter of privatisation. I want to thank hon members who spoke about this, namely the hon members for Jeppe and Kempton Park, as well as other hon members. The hon member for Jeppe made a very sound and well-prepared speech. The speech of the hon member for Kempton Park was also, as usual, well prepared, and dealt with inter alia partnership. The State does not have the money and will never have the money to provide health services on its own. The private sector will have to be involved, to an increasing extent, in a partnership.

We must not think that we can privatise just for the sake of privatising. We can only consider privatising with regard to health services if those services remain all-inclusive and affordable to the people who are supposed to receive those services.

The privatisation of State hospitals holds specific advantages. Firstly, the funds which are generated by the sale of the hospitals can be used for other important Government projects. Secondly, there is the saving as a result of a smaller Public Service. Thirdly, there is the expansion of the taxation structure and fourthly, the maintenance and replacement costs of obsolete hospitals are eliminated.

With regard to the 44 own affairs hospitals which have now been transferred to the administration, a project team, consisting of the officials of the Department of Health Services and Welfare, the Commission for Administration and the provincial administrations, is investigating the possibility of privatisation at the moment. Offers for the privatisation of 15 of these hospitals have already been received from the private sector while certain private hospital developers have suggested that they would be interested in the privatising of any of the own affairs hospitals.

The project team is investigating various models for privatisation of which four can be distinguished at this stage. Firstly, there is the model for the privatisation of a State hospital which is used exclusively by State patients in chronic psychiatric institutions, for example the Cullinan Care and Rehabilitation Centre. Secondly, there is the model for the privatisation of hospitals which treat mainly private patients, for example the Andrew McCullum Hospital in Pretoria. Thirdly, there is the model for the privatisation of mixed hospitals where private and State patients are treated and fourthly, there is the model for the privatisation of unused hospitals.

According to these models it will be possible to determine the way in which a specific hospital can be privatised to the best advantage, for example by the sale, letting, the period during which letting should take place, what the personnel implications are, whether the apparatus and furniture should be hired out or sold, etc. There are various other facets which must also be considered before such a recommendation can be made by the project team, for example, the opinion of the hospital boards in question must also be obtained, properties must be valued, feasibility studies must take place and the opinion of the community leaders must be obtained. After the approval in principle of the Ministers’ Council has been obtained for the privatisation of a hospital, tenders will be requested.

I want to emphasise that the care of the needy patient will be thoroughly taken into account in such a privatised situation. The department will not desert such patients. In this regard it can be said that an agreement to provide services to needy patients from such a privatised hospital is also receiving attention at present.

We are also well on the way to privatising a part of the Pretoria West Hospital and the activation of the 100-bed facility for the chronically weak aged patients at the South Rand Hospital in Johannesburg is at an advanced stage. The participants in the latter project are the Johannesburg Town Council, the TPA and our department. The fact that this is taking place should assure the hon member for Carletonville that his submissions are indeed receiving very serious attention, but that we are unable to devise a comprehensive programme, but will consider hospital after hospital in a very responsible way and give attention to each.

Is it going to be the first?

Each one would like to be the first, but the hon member will have to be patient. There is also another matter and that is fragmentation.

†The hon member for Durban North who is not here now uses the same groundless, radical, politically motivated slogans without understanding the issues. To suggest that the existence of own affairs hospitals will lead to patients, who have previously been treated at a hospital, being refused treatment at the same hospital and being forced to travel long distances to other hospitals, is simply untrue.

I will leave it at that. All I want to tell the hon member is that this Government takes cognisance of the realities of this country and heterogenicity is one of the realities of this country. That is why we are actually succeeding in satisfying the needs of all the people concerned.

*So much is being said about fragmentation. I think we should ask the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare in the House of Representatives what he thinks about that. We know that he does not accept the concept of the tricameral system, but what has he achieved for his people through his welfare programme? He himself admits that he has achieved far more in that own affairs situation than he would have achieved if everything had taken place under one umbrella.

It is being generally alleged that the new health dispensation fragments health services. We should also not forget that health services always were fragmented. We often speak about fragmentation now as if there had been a wonderful unified system without fragmentation. There was, and still is an unnatural division between preventative, curative and rehabilitative services. This division is impractical, ineffective and confusing. An effective health service can only be brought about if one authority can provide a comprehensive curative service—by that I mean preventative, curative and rehabilitative—to its specific community.

The comprehensiveness of this health service can be expanded even further by the integration of health and welfare services. Several years ago, health and welfare services were integrated in the then Department of Health, Welfare and Pensions. If we look at the areas of work of the health and welfare services we see that there is a great deal of overlapping. Both these groups are concerned with the care of the aged, handicapped, those addicted to alcohol and drugs, to mention only a few.

Health and welfare belong together. We can differentiate between them, but we cannot separate them. A comprehensive service could be provided if these services were fully integrated, and for that reason the Administration: House of Assembly decided that the attainability of a multidisciplinary health and welfare service centre, where the funds were available and where the need existed, should be considered, and if necessary, implemented. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, the hon the Deputy Minister said at the beginning of his speech that the development of the NP policy complied with the wishes of South African voters. If that is so… [Interjections]…—I hear them saying yes—then I assume that most of those hon members will not return here after 6 September to represent the voters of South Africa. [Interjections.]

The hon the Deputy Minister did not reply to my relevant question whether he agreed with the MEC of the Transvaal and the hon member for Langlaagte regarding the integration of hospital facilities and hospital beds.

But you know what our policy is!

No, I do not know. [Interjections.] That is just the problem.

Your problem is that your ears are closed ! [Interjections.]

Let us look at the policy. The hon member for Parktown will agree with me—he was there and many hon members were also there—that in the Extended Committee of the Province of the Transvaal the MEC said that he agreed fully with the hon member for Parktown regarding hospital integration. That is correct.

The hon member for Langlaagte sat on the same committee. He said that the Reservation of Separate Amenities Act should be abolished, as regards hospitalisation too.

Now the hon the Deputy Minister says, however, that there are certain segregated hospitals, such as the J G Strijdom Hospital among others—which has always been a segregated hospital—and that now has to become an own affairs hospital.

What are the facts, however? The doctor on the Monitor radio programme said that hospital beds, nurses and all facilities at the J G Strijdom Hospital were used by everybody. I also want to ask him whether Wits is still to use the facilities at the J G Strijdom Hospital. It is common knowledge that that medical faculty accommodates students from all population groups. Will they therefore permit those students to receive their training at the J G Strijdom Hospital? [Interjections.] The hon the Minister says yes. Now I ask with tears in my eyes how this can be an own affairs hospital in such a case? [Interjections.]

I want to continue and say that the hon the Minister was so kind as to send this Government Gazette across in which the proclamation on own affairs hospitals was announced on 31 March. I see he mentions the provincial hospital at Port Elizabeth in the Cape Province. The ridiculous aspect of this is that the writer of this letter of 25 April, which I have here, in other words a month after the proclamation, complains to me that White and non-White are mixed in the children’s ward of the provincial hospital. What is the case now? [Interjections.] Is it an own affairs hospital now? [Interjections.]

I want to say a few words about welfare services. Firstly, I want to comment on the hon member for Jeppe. He made the astonishing statement here that White civil pensioners’ pensions had risen above the inflation rate. I do not think that there is a single social pensioner who will agree with that hon member. Last year there was an increase of R5 a month. The year before the increase was a meagre 8%. [Interjections.] I think that any civil pensioner will say that they have fallen far behind regarding the inflation rate. One cannot even argue the point. [Interjections.]

As from 1 January social pensions have been increased from R218 to R251, for which we are very grateful on behalf of the growing number of aged White voters of this country. The hon the Minister himself admitted during a recent interpellation debate that it was not adequate yet. Now he says that these allowances should be regarded only as assistance and are not intended to provide everything because there must be children and relatives who ought to help.

Of course this is so. I agree, but there are aged married couples and single people who do not have children or relatives who can help. Some of these people have children or relatives who are simply not there or there are others who are in such dire financial straits themselves that they simply cannot help.

Now the hon the Minister expects such a married couple to provide the most basic necessities of life on an amount of R502 a month and that while the State itself subsidises homes for the aged to the tune of R612,55 in category C—hospitals. The hon the Minister in other words expects that an aged couple should provide basic necessities of life on the meagre amount of R502.

When I look at a report in this weekend’s Sunday Star, the writer—I do not think he is far wrong—calculated that a couple who had retired and had no more bond repayments on their house needed no less than R2 000, of which R800 was for food alone, for a bearable existence.

Now the hon the Minister will say that there are many other forms of assistance from the side of the State, like telephone installation costs, television licence discounts, travel discounts, etc. But this does not buy food. It is generally accepted that the price of this commodity has risen far more than the average stated inflation rate. This does not buy that commodity. If we take that R800, which, as is indicated here, is necessary to buy food, and compare it with the social pension of R502, I tell the hon the Minister categorically that our pensioners are being impoverished at an alarming rate and are actually suffering want. We must take into account that the means limit has remained at R42 000 and that as from 1 October last year the value of a house has changed from R9 800 to R15 200 as regards determining income from an investment. In other words, as regards the means limit, the situation has deteriorated for pensioners from October up to the present. [Time expired,]

Mr Chairman, I have great respect for the hon member for Pietersburg… [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member may proceed.

I do not know whether the hon member is confused or whether the hospitals are confused. Heavens, the hon member should not complain so incessantly. It eventually shows on one’s face.

One tends to measure everything against a specific norm, for example price increases, human behaviour and appearance. Consequently one is regarded as normal when one acts within certain civilised limits. One has a normal intellect if a reasonable scholastic level has been attained, enabling one to live independently as an adult. A physically normal person is well proportioned, and this implies that he has the full use of all his limbs. I could continue to make assessments in accordance with generally applicable norms. However, because of factors within or beyond his control, a disabled person is not well proportioned and does not have the full use of his organs, limbs or intellectual ability. The disabled person does, however, have other abilities, and with these other abilities he is able to meet certain demands, for example those of being able to move independently, walk, study and work, of achieving a goal or striving to achieve an objective.

There is a tendency to regard the physically disabled as being intellectually inadequate as well, unable to take decisions for themselves, but in spite of disabilities many disabled persons can still make a positive contribution to our country’s economy; indeed, the needs of the disabled are exactly the same as those of their healthy counterparts. The disabled have basic needs that must be met, such as food, clothing, a place to live, and they also want recognition, love and security. Against this background it is important for society to realise its responsibility when it comes to regarding the disabled as an integral part of society.

The Department of Health Services and Welfare has held this view for years, and it was emphasised during the Year of the Disabled in 1986. For example, small changes can make buildings accessible to the disabled, and the physical work environment can be adapted to meet the needs of the disabled. In my opinion serious attention must be given to the following matters—the permanent appointment of disabled workers, the payment of pensions to them after a certain period of service has been completed and the creation of an insurance package for the disabled. There is still too much discrimination against these people in respect of the benefits I have just mentioned.

Correcting these deficiencies will lead to greater peace of mind for the disabled, greater productivity and less dependence on and financial assistance from the State. Society tends to isolate and institutionalise those who cannot meet the normal demands of society. However, institutional care should be seen as the very last resort, and it should be considered only when the person concerned cannot function independently in society. Society should be educated to view the severely disabled as human beings in their own right with certain abilities that can be used in the interests of society.

In my town, Worcester, we have many cases of these individuals with multiple disabilities at the Institute for the Deaf and the Blind. Multiple disabilities are increasing—12% over the past 10 years.

The Department of Education and Culture in the Administration: House of Assembly provides for the maintenance of this multi-disciplinary service. Things are going well at the schools, but because there is a lack of suitable facilities and competent staff in the workshop and the homes, the quality of the overall service is declining, and as a result so is the quality of life of the disabled. At present it costs almost R15 000 per annum to keep a child at school, 78% of which is paid by the Department of Education and Culture. Many of those who have completed their studies have to leave school after 10 years and go home because the overflow can no longer be absorbed by the homes and workshops.

As a result of an urgent representation to the hon the Minister and a personal visit by him, a grant was made to the division for the deaf disabled for the immediate erection of hostels, workshops and homes for the deaf aged. I understand that it is an amount of R6,3 million. I hope this is right.

I want to thank the hon the Minister for this special grant, because the needs were critical.

There has also been a promise that the capital project for the blind would continue. The hon the Minister said that we could determine the needs and that the per capita grant would be calculated in accordance with these needs.

I should like to express a special word of thanks to the media who have recently made a large contribution in projecting a positive image of the disabled to the community. The community is made aware of the deaf, the blind and the physically disabled and what they are able to do, not only in their own interests, but also in the interests of the country as a whole.

In Worcester we regard our blind, deaf and disabled as having been put in our care. We are proud of them. They are all a part of our society and we regard them all as being quite normal.

I want to thank the hon the Minister and his department for granting the funds to enable them to live dignified lives. I wish I could take every single hon member to see what these people with multiple disabilities can do. One becomes quite ashamed, particularly those of us who think we are so talented.

Mr Chairman, I have known the hon member for Worcester for almost 40 years and I have also known Worcester for a very long time. The hon member will know what my connection with Worcester is. That is why I can only agree with him on what he said about the work that is being done in Worcester for handicapped persons. I visited them years ago and I think one can only speak in praise of the staff and the people who do that wonderful work.

That is not all Worcester has. Worcester also has very pretty girls, as the hon member knows.

I listened attentively, particularly to the speeches made by the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister. The hon the Deputy Minister made a few astonishing statements here. Firstly he said that I had made my last speech here. That could be true, but after what I have heard from the Northern Transvaal, I think the hon the Deputy Minister has also made his last speech. So in this respect we are equal. [Interjections.]

He also said the NP—if I understood him correctly—would give expression to the wishes of the White voters to retain their own hospitals. Is that correct?

Repeat that?

The NP would give expression to the wishes of the White voters, and for that reason it would retain their own hospitals.

No, I said that the NP knew the wishes of the voters and accordingly it would…

Order! The hon the Deputy Minister cannot make a speech now.

Mr Chairman, he therefore admits it is the expression of the will of the White voters. I take it that, if the White voters vote in the NP, this is also the expression of the will of the voters in favour of the own affairs policy of the NP, which is based on race. In my opinion, and also in the opinion of most people in South Africa, this amounts to a policy of apartheid. Now I want to know from the hon the Deputy Minister whether he is opposed to the White voters, in the municipal elections of Brakpan and Carletonville, also having expressed a favourable opinion of own affairs, as they see it. Does he agree with that?

Rustenburg is also doing it!

Does the hon the Deputy Minister agree with the apartheid measures of the CP in their constituencies? Does he agree that the will of the White voters there must triumph?

In Rustenburg as well! [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, apartheid in swimming baths and on sports fields is just as objectionable as apartheid in hospitals and in hospital services. The NP cannot pretend that their apartheid is something sacred or something wonderful. Apartheid is objectionable, and I want to tell this hon Minister that there is no difference between the apartheid of the NP and that of the CP. The only difference lies in the way in which it is being applied. I believe that many of the hon members sitting here are ashamed of what the NP Government is doing in the name of health and health services.

The hon the Minister had a great many sanctimonious things to say here about patients and students who had to be trained. The hon the Deputy Minister agreed with the hon member Mrs Chait, who paid tribute to the nursing profession. I also pay tribute to the nurses. I agree with all the reasons which she enumerated here. I put it to the hon the Minister, however, that the Nursing Association rejects separate hospitals and own affairs in health services, and so does the Medical Association of South Africa and the Dental Association of South Africa, as well as the Association of Social Workers and the Pharmaceutical Association. The association of every health service rejects own affairs in health and in social work. [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister must therefore not come to me with that kind of talk. He must not come and tell me what is good for the patients and for the doctors. Actually he is merely stating what is good for the NP. And that is all that he said here today. The patients and the doctors of South Africa do not care a rap for that. The hon the Minister was only concerned about the ideological policy of the NP, which was rejected by all the associations in South Africa and also by the rest of the world. In any case this ideology is rejected by all races in South Africa.

I can understand the CP’s policy of apartheid—gross apartheid—in their hospitals, although I cannot agree with it. They are at least honest and clearly outspoken about it.

We are telling the truth!

The NP’s policy is dishonest. [Interjections.] Now I want to ask the hon the Minister something. He now wants own affairs hospitals. He wants the Whites to have their own hospitals in their own areas—where they can feel comfortable. Has he ever heard of a hospital called Groote Schuur?

That is probably in Carletonville!

Has the hon the Minister ever heard of the Red Cross Hospital? Has he ever heard of those hospitals?

I probably do not have the intelligence of the Barnards, but I am not stupid! [Interjections.]

Very well then. Now I want to ask that hon Minister, who is being so clever today, whether Groote Schuur is a White or a non-White hospital. What is the patient percentage according to race in the Groote Schuur Hospital? Does the hon the Minister know that? Eighty percent of the patients in Groote Schuur are non-Whites, and 20% are Whites.

You must remedy that quickly!

Is anyone arguing about that?

What are you trying to imply by that?

Is the hon the Minister arguing about it? Must the Whites then not have their own hospitals? Or is that only allowed in certain parts? [Interjections.] He must tell me. What is his policy?

I have already explained it, but you could not understand it!

No, I cannot understand it. The hon the Minister is quite right. [Interjections.] The hon the Minister spoke about the J G Strijdom Hospital. He had a great deal to say about that hospital. Things were going to remain precisely the same there, he said. According to him there is going to be no difference in regard to the treatment of patients, and it is going to remain an academic training hospital. Why then have such a thing as own affairs? Why could that hospital not have remained the way it was?

That hospital is now being declared an own affairs hospital. This is being done against the will of the doctors and of the medical school of the University of the Witwatersrand. It is being done against the will of everyone. Why introduce own affairs there? [Interjections.]

The hon the Minister can tell me whatever he likes; the NP is in the process of declaring the J G Strijdom Hospital an own affairs hospital. From speeches I heard here today I deduced that that was true. The J G Strijdom Hospital is just as close to a non-White area as the Groote Schuur Hospital. Groote Schuur has 20% and 80% non-White patients.

The hon the Minister does not want to give the J G Strijdom Hospital to the Coloureds, and that is why it is being declared a White own affair so that the hon the Minister does not have the power to declare the J G Strijdom Hospital open. [Interjections.] What is the hon the Minister doing? Nothing that the hon the Minister said today caused me to change my opinion. Nothing! The hon the Minister wants to use the J G Strijdom Hospital to withhold the empty beds there from the Coloureds and other racial groups. The hon the Minister is going to open the empty wards to the old people by means of the introduction of the own affairs concept.

This might perhaps be my last speech here, but I want to tell the hon the Deputy Minister that when I go to Sun City and he is sitting in Rustenburg, doing nothing after the election, I shall stop off in Rustenburg and tell him that he owes me an apology, because I was right. [Interjections.]

Furthermore I want to tell the hon the Deputy Minister he must beg my pardon—I am certain that he did not do it wilfully—for having said that I had encouraged the personnel of the J G Strijdom Hospital to resign. He must nevertheless apologise, because that it not the kind of thing I would do. The DP spokesman told me.

Then the newspapers reported you incorrectly.

Very well, but it remains wrong, because I would not do things like that. I would not tell the staff to resign, and I am also opposed to the hon the Deputy Minister wanting to operate that hospital as an own affair.

†We in the medical profession have to do our duty in spite of the Government we have. There is no doubt about that.

*Next I want to talk about privatisation. The privatisation of hospital services has progressed the furthest of any privatisation in South Africa. If that is the example of the Government’s plan with privatisation, then the good Lord will have to help us in this country, because the privatisation of hospital services is already a complete failure. I am not saying this because private hospitals do not render a good service, but the hon the Deputy Minister must agree with me that the purpose with the privatisation of hospital services in South Africa is to make more money available for the public sector so as to make provision in that way for the government hospitals. What happened? To date no further privatisation has been introduced in private hospitals.

The hon the Deputy Minister is pulling a face. I can make a diagnosis for him of facial expressions.

He never said we were going to use privatisation money for current expenditure.

What is the Government going to use it for then? I will tell the hon the Minister what they are going to use it for. Just give me a chance.

*Just give me a chance. I shall tell hon members where they are going to use it and this is already being demonstrated in the hospital services. As hon members themselves know, tremendous progress has already been made with the privatisation of hospital services, and this has led to State hospitals being able to render fewer expensive and specialised hospital services. Apart from that, there is no money available for the provincial and government hospitals. It makes no difference what has already been said; there is simply not enough money. Do hon members know what money that has been saved owing to privatisation is going to be used for? It is simply going to be used so that the NP Government can continue to afford to force apartheid on South Africa. That is why privatisation is taking place. The money obtained from privatisation is going to be used to enable them to afford apartheid in South Africa. The hon the Minister can shake his head again if he likes. I shall stop off in Rustenburg after the election, because the hon the Deputy Minister is going to be sitting there doing nothing. I reiterate that the Government is using privatisation money to further apartheid. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it is interesting to note that although the hon the Minister and the hon the Deputy Minister devoted a great deal of time this afternoon to explaining the entire aspect in connection with the own affairs concept, which is being discussed in this debate today, to hon members, it seems to me as if they cannot or will not understand it.

I have been listening to the hon member for Parktown, and I must give him credit for the fact that he always harps on the same string. His guitar only has one string, and I suppose he is entitled to give his own view…

One man, one party!

… but whether it is the right view and whether he is making any contribution is another matter.

Today South Africa has one of the best medical services in the world and it is also a recognised fact that medicine, just like food and accommodation, has become a basic necessity in our daily lives. What is causing concern, however, is the steadily rising costs of these services and medicines. The man in the street is really starting to feel the pinch. South Africa spends R2 000 million on medicine annually. This is an enormous sum of money. I want to ask this afternoon whether this is necessary. What is the cause of all these high costs? I should like to ask a few questions this afternoon and look at a few realities.

Does the man in the street not go to the doctor too frequently and too readily? Today we heard that 90% of the people in our country belong to medical aid funds. Do they not go specifically because they think the medical aid fund is paying for the treatment in any case? Are the high costs not perhaps a direct consequence of the overutilization of medical services? If our medical aid patients are compelled to pay for their first two visits to a doctor themselves, they will think twice before they run to the doctor with every little ache and pain.

You are cruel, Joan!

The Browne Commission alleged that 90% of all services could be prevented by self-treatment. What has become of our old home remedies? What has become of the Vicks, camphor oil and aspirin with which we used to doctor ourselves in the past? [Interjections.]

The greatest expenditure of our medical aid funds during the past five years was on medicine. Is medicine not too readily prescribed nowadays and in too large quantities? If we consult a doctor nowadays, we take it for granted that we will leave with a prescription and will go home with a packet of pills. How many of those pills are taken? How many do not remain in the medicine cabinet?

It is also said that 80% of the cost of medicine is constituted by the raw material. The research needed to develop that medicine is included in that. Nowadays we are very proud of our overseas medical manufacturing companies which invested so much money in this country and created so many thousands of job opportunities. They also keep apace of what is going on internationally in respect of medical aid funds and medical history as such.

It is said that our pharmaceutical wholesalers in South Africa are among the people who make the biggest profits in comparison with those in other parts of the world. We do not begrudge them their profits, but is it really necessary for them to be that high? Last year there was a pharmaceutical congress in Port Elizabeth and it was stated that pharmacists charged 114% more for their medicines than they paid for them. This elicited a tremendous counter-reaction. These people argued that they had very high overhead costs. Because they could not purchase the medicine in such large quantities, they had to pay more for it.

In this Chamber one realises that the State is blamed for many things. However, the State buys its medicine according to the State tender system. It is an open system. No tenderer is compelled to tender and no maximum price is specified in those documents either. Only the prescribed specifications and the quantities required are specified. Now it is maintained that the tenderer must make up for the fact that he provides his stocks to the State at a low price by making them available to the private sector at an enormously high price. The State has said over and over again that it makes very little impression on or difference to the price that the private sector must pay, compared with what the State must pay. The mere fact that the tenderer makes this medicine available to the State in bulk makes it profitable for him. Otherwise he would not have tendered for it.

What is definitely contributing to the high cost of our medicine is the distribution chain. As a result of several investigations undertaken in this regard, it was found that the price of medicine doubles from the manufacturer to the patient. Then the general sales tax has not been added yet. The chain reaction, where the costs are passed from the manufacturer to the retailer to the pharmacist and eventually to the man in the street, is an entire process. In the long run the medical aid funds must pay. No wonder the medical aid funds are constantly putting up their prices and costs.

Are more expensive new medicines not also being used unnecessarily nowadays? Why are the generic equivalents not used more often? It is said that these medicines, on which the patent has lapsed, are between 25% and 50% cheaper. By using more of these, we can save as much R36 million annually. No pharmacist may substitute a generic equivalent on a prescription if the doctor has not approved this demand. We must remember too that we are also paying the research costs in respect of the new medicines appearing on the market.

Today I want to ask whether it is not possible for us to be more preventative in this beautiful country of us. In this way and also through our general way of life we shall need to spend less on medicine. In this century of fast foods and a precipitate lifestyle the Westerner is destroying his entire life. How many people are not constantly tired and irritated nowadays? They must rely on pills to get them through the day. Today I should like to ask hon members in the House how many of them had a balanced and healthy breakfast before they left home this morning? I wonder how many of them will tell me that they only had a cup of coffee before leaving home.

How many people consider the cause of their ill-health. It is frequently caused by an incorrect way of life, eating too much or too little, excessive smoking, alcohol abuse, and if we add the stress and strain, we realize what our people are really trapped in.

Nowadays millions of rands are spent to relieve the consequences of our incorrect way of life. If more attention were given to preventing the diseases, we would be better off. Nowadays we eat too many refined foods and too many refined sugars. There are also too many animal fats in our diet. The fibre, the enzymes and the vitamins are destroyed in the manufacturing process so that we can have fast foods to make life easier for us.

How many people are not struck down in their most productive years by high blood pressure, heart diseases, cancer, diabetes and stomach ulcers, to mention but a few? Just look at television advertisements. Nowadays people rely on refined sugar for energy, on excessive smoking and alcohol to relax and the excessive drinking of coffee as a stimulant. Overweight goes hand in hand with many complaints and our people are digging early graves for themselves because of their eating habits.

Medical research is still making progress. We in this country are exposed to the most advanced technology. This afternoon the hon member for Jeppe spoke about the new magnetic resonance apparatus which has been installed in the private City Park Clinic in Johannesburg. This apparatus cost R6 million and it cost R1 million to install it. It is actually a pity that the State did not have sufficient funds to purchase more of this kind of apparatus. The fact that it is in a private institution also means that it is also available to the other people in the country. With the assistance of this apparatus the skull can be examined thoroughly and heart problems can be diagnosed before they manifest themselves.

The question which is being asked to an increasing extent is whether we can still afford to fall ill. It has already been said that we must consider pegging down the cost of medicine. Is that possible? [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, following on the hon member for Edenvale, I would like to agree with her on the question of generic substitution. I think it is a very important thing that, both financially and from the point of view of the patient, we need to foster generic substitution. However, I think in regard to her reference to the excessive profits being made by the retail pharmacist that there is a very big question mark against that, and certainly the pharmacists’ association has indicated that.

I would like to refer to the speech of the hon member Mrs Chait concerning nurses and their conditions of service and request both these hon Ministers kindly to look at the Public Service Amendment Bill which addresses the negotiating mechanisms for the Public Service. There have already been complaints from the Nursing Association regarding this Bill and regarding the exclusion of a body such as the Nursing Association from the mechanism of the negotiating machinery in the Bill. I believe it is inherently the responsibility of the various Ministers of health to look at that particular area.

I would like to refer to the subject mentioned by the hon members for Durban Central and Pietersburg, that is the question of social pensions and the means test. It is interesting to examine the statistics reported by this department over the past two years with regard to social pensions and the associated war veterans’ pensions.

Firstly, there was an increase of 548 in the actual number of social pensions allocated and a decrease of 432 in the number of war veterans’ pensions. There was therefore an increase of only about 100 allocations in the 150 000 social pensions paid. This means that for White social pensioners there was no actual increase in the number of social pensions being allocated.

Secondly, looking at the overall budgets for South Africa and the amounts allocated for White social pensioners, even over the past five years, a lower proportion of the national Budget is being allocated to White social pensions than in the past.

We believe that this department—we have raised this in previous years—has a responsibility to commence a zero-based examination of the cost of living of the White social pensioner. We believe that it is all well and good that there is an increase, which has been granted from 1 January. It does not yet exist and will not come about for at least another year, but it is merely a percentage of a figure, and it has gone up now to R251 per month, or on a sliding scale on the means test down to R89. However, even if we take the maximum figure of R251 and start doing a zero database analysis of the cost of rented accommodation, of foodstuffs, of the very necessary telephone for safety purposes and of clothing, then we reach a point at which we realise that R251 is simply not enough for an individual to live on in South Africa today.

If one goes, as no doubt many of us will be doing as we go canvassing, and knocks on the doors of flats, one will find people living in very bad conditions. We believe that the State has a responsibility to provide a safety net for those people.

We have an unfortunate political situation in which the CP are exploiting the issue of parity because of the conditions of the White social pensioner. It is not an attitude that we in the DP would support, because we believe that parity is where one should start and not where one should end. However, the conditions are such that the political tendency today is that unless it is addressed by this Government in the very near future, there is going to be a severe problem.

Furthermore, only three groups are excluded from the means test—my colleague, the hon member for Durban Central, asked that this be re-examined—and they are persons over the age of 100 and, in the case of war veterans, Anglo-Boer War veterans and World War I veterans. We believe that this department should reexamine both the means test in its totality and those persons excluded from the means test. Even if we are looking at war veterans’ pensions and the exclusion of those above a certain age level, for example those war veterans who are over 70 or 75, that needs to be examined.

Then I would like to enter the fray on the J G Strijdom question, because it seems to me that we actually need to make the point to this hon Minister that was made in the provincial debates. In the debate in the Transvaal, the hon member for Newclare in the House of Representatives indicated that he served on the board of Coronation Hospital, a decaying, 50-year old hospital, and continued (Hansard, 4 April 1989, col 4354):

A hospital which is 50 years old—

He asked if so-called Coloured persons could use J G Strijdom Hospital. This was the reply of the hon MEC (Hansard, 5 April 1989, col 4789):

So who is going to make the decision? [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Pinetown will forgive me if I give this debate another direction.

During the previous session of this House, I made a plea for the creation of a Chair of Suicidology that would in some way, at an academic level, assist practically in devising ways and means of bringing down our unacceptably high rate of suicide.

Having been at the forefront of suicide prevention and crisis intervention in this country for more that 28 years, I have long felt the need for a more focused effort at tertiary level as regards suicidology and crisis intervention and, more particularly, the creation of a national data base on these subjects. Regrettably the statistics regarding suicide in this country appear not to have enjoyed the attention we see devoted to, for instance, one’s spending capacity, lifestyle habits and credit card records. I find this particularly disturbing, both as suicidologist and as a crisis intervention consultant.

I was gratified to note that the first Southern African Conference on Suicidology was held in September last year. Several significant points emerged from that conference, which I hope will be followed up, for the longer we delay, the more lives we will surely lose.

I would be being less than candid if I did not say I was disappointed at not being invited to address that conference, more particularly in the light of the fact that, through Suicides Anonymous, my family and I were over some 28 years responsible for saving approximately 150 000 lives and preventing people from taking that irrevocable step.

True, we had failures, but the insights we gained into the minds of the would-be suicides and family killers were unique. The tapes and papers kept over the 28 years may yet provide researchers with much valuable material. I shall return to this aspect presently.

The incidence of suicide among Whites in South Africa is among the highest in the world. More than 2,2% of all reported deaths, suicide represents the tip of the iceberg and is underreported, due to efforts by family and even the victim to hide the fact. There are in certain age groups up to 50 attempts to every successful suicide. The most important causes include depression, isolation and sexual problems—aggravated by heavy drinking and drugging which is most common in city dwellers.

Suicide is a tragic loss of human life that causes suffering and despair to those left behind. Our society does not give any consideration to the family difficulties that follow the death of a breadwinner or consider the stigma, blame, guilt and remorse of the survivors.

After my address to this House, conscious of the urgency of the situation during the recess, I approached no fewer that 17 universities in South Africa urging them to create chairs of suicidology and crisis intervention. The replies were illuminating. Without exception, they all recognised the need for greater attention to be paid to suicide prevention but, in many cases, the cost is the factor standing in the way of the creation of such a chair. Perhaps the reply received from Professor M J de Vries, Rector and Vice Chancellor of the University of Stellenbosch deserves special mention. I quote part of his letter:

I would like the next passage from the letter to be clearly noted by all who care about human life. This is what Professor De Vries had to say:

He went on to say:

Professor De Vries also emphasised that he and his colleagues are extremely perturbed not only at the increase in the suicide rate, but also at the growing incidence of family slayings, which, as I know from experience, is a phenomenon closely linked with suicide. In this regard it is particularly disturbing to note that family murders in this country increased by 70% between 1983 and 1985 and were restricted mainly to the White community.

In an article in the South African Medical Journal, Doctor J L Roos and Doctor W Bodemer of the University of Pretoria wrote that psychiatric literature had scant information about family murders but that an analysis of press reports showed this 70% increase.

An analysis of 5 cases of family murders recorded by the Weskoppies psychiatric hospital showed that in 4 out of 5 cases serious depression had been found in the perpetrators and that there had been previous suicide threats or attempts thereat in 4 of the 5 cases.

Time does not permit my quoting in full all the pertinent comments received from the various universities. I highlight only the following. The University of Stellenbosch favours the countrywide establishment of walk-in clinics where professional services can be rendered to members of the public desperate for help as regards suicide, family violence and marital problems. The relevant academics stress that such facilities do not exist and that the services at hospitals are simply not geared to meet crises of this nature.

At this juncture I would like to welcome the steps taken by the hon the Minister and hope that very soon walk-in crisis centres will be a feature of every city. In this respect the Transvaal is especially in need of attention, seeing that about 40% of this problem takes place in the Transvaal. It is clear that we need general hospital-based psychiatric emergency services similar to those developed at Groote Schuur Hospital. All regional and academic hospitals should provide a psychological crisis intervention centre. The subcommittee on mental health matters of the HMAC is exploring this urgent need and it is hoped that a positive outcome will eventuate because we can no longer afford procrastination as regards an extremely critical health problem which can and must be nipped in the bud.

Here I must pause to congratulate Unisa warmly on its significant project on family violence. I think the final results will be most revealing and possibly even induce a sense of shock. The Randse Afrikaanse Universiteit impressed me greatly with the thoroughness with which it went into the question of establishing a chair which perforce should have to be linked to departments such as Social Studies, Education, Nursing, Sociology and Theology, and including of course the important research component.

It would be remiss of me not to mention the enthusiasm with which the idea was greeted by Prof Joubert, Vice Chancellor and Principal of the University of Pretoria and his learned colleagues. The university views suicidology as a scientific discipline and it is my hope that the enlightened attitude shown by Prof Joubert will yield concrete results.

Lastly, the University of Cape Town highlighted the work it was doing in suicide and crisis intervention as well as post-graduate education and clinical service in this area as well.

It is abundantly clear from these replies that the need is there; it has been identified and now it needs to be concretised. I would certainly hope that we do not produce another Niagra of words and opinions while the people in need have in many cases either nowhere to turn to or half-hearted facilities. While we talk, the people who desperately need our help simply cannot find that help and are driven to that final and dreadful situation. I do not propose to pussyfoot over the question of costs. They are considerable. Indeed, the cost of everything designed to save human lives is high. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Bezuidenhout will pardon me if I do not react to him. I have a vague feeling that at this late hour of the afternoon a person is looking for trouble if one does not speak quickly and get done. [Interjections.]

In yesterday’s Die Burger I read a letter written in the name of the hon the Minister whose Vote we are dealing with today. I quote from the last paragraph of the letter. The headline of the letter reads: “’n Staat kan nie alleen vir bejaardes sorg nie.” In the last paragraph he says:

[Interjections.] I agree with the hon the Minister and I think that what I have just quoted is the essence of everything that I want to say and also of what he has written there. It is also the essence of the few ideas which I want to share today about the one problem which is being experienced by social pensioners and receivers of grants in particular. I am well aware of the fact that pensions and grants were originally considered to be supplementary to income, and were not intended to cover the full subsistence expenses of beneficiaries.

In my constituency in the Warrenton district there is a social welfare settlement by the name of Ganspan. The village with its plus minus 200 families has its own primary school and church building, as well as a grocery shop, butchery and post office. The nearest of any size town, Jan Kempdorp, is approximately 10 kilometres from Ganspan.

Originally one of the qualifications for receiving housing here was that one had to have dependent pre-school and school-going children under the age of eighteen years. In other words the hon member for Winburg would not have been able to buy here, because he is not capable of having such children. [Interjections.]

The result was that most of the people who moved to Ganspan were in possession of disability pensions, and were sometimes still reasonably young people. The problem has now arisen that the husband, the breadwinner, receives such a disability pension, but the wife receives no pension because she is still young and physically healthy enough to work. Unfortunately many of the women have extremely low educational qualifications.

In Ganspan itself, as well as in the nearby town, there are no or very few job opportunities. In any case there is no public transport to the nearest town, even if someone should, in an exceptional case, find work there. Owing to the increase in the cost of living it is impossible to exist on the pension of one breadwinner.

The whole of the Ganspan area is State-owned land and no private owner can purchase land there to establish an industry or job opportunities. Even if it were possible to acquire land, it is still not within an acknowledged industrial area and that is why one cannot claim any State aid in the form of decentralisation benefits.

However, I wish to refer to the letter I quoted at the outset—that the community must also contribute its share. I believe that the surrounding community would gladly make its contribution to create job opportunities. My request to the hon the Minister this afternoon is that he appoint a committee of inquiry, consisting of officials and members of the local community, to investigate the possible establishment of one or more small industries, in which women in particular can receive training in a work situation and are therefore able to become self-sufficient.

Owing to the fact that no private land is available, the possibility will have to be considered of the Government providing a building which could possibly be made available to a private person at a low rental, perhaps with the condition that a large percentage of the workers have to be residents of Ganspan. I believe that if such an investigation is successful, a great burden will be lifted from the Government’s shoulders. At the same time it will give these people a sense of worth.

A second matter that I wish to raise has a bearing on what I have just said, namely the inability of many of these people to spend their money sensibly. Many more social workers will be needed to give the necessary financial guidance. It bothers one if one looks at the service record of the department and one sees that of the total number of 391 posts, including that of principal, as well as senior and ordinary social workers, 49, that is approximately 14%, are vacant.

I do not know what the cause is, but if it is due to insufficient social workers, the responsibility rests with the department perhaps to provide more bursaries in order to train more of these people.

I wish to conclude by expressing my thanks to the department on behalf of the 970 White people who receive social pensions and/or allowances from the State. A special word of thanks must be expressed on behalf of the approximately 460 families, with their approximately 600 dependent children, who find shelter in our settlements. Without this assistance from the State these people would not be able to exist.

I also want to address a special word of thanks to our hon Minister for the compassion with which he fulfils this great task of his. This afternoon, on behalf of my own mother, a person who is very special to me and who also lives in an old age home, I want to thank those Black hands which look after and help our old people in old age homes.

Mr Chairman, I want to thank the hon member for Kimberley North sincerely for his keen interest in the Ganspan settlement.

It was a great pleasure to have been able to accompany him on a visit to the settlement at the end of last year or the beginning of this year. He also rightly emphasised the task of the community and that of the neighbouring community of Ganspan. It is a very reasonable request he made to us for the appointment of such a committee of inquiry, and I do believe that the department will give it very serious consideration and help to determine whether some light industry or other cannot be established to provide the people of Ganspan with job opportunities and therefore a means of making a living.

There are various hon members to whom I want to reply briefly, ie the hon members for Maraisburg, Wellington, Witbank, Worcester, Pinetown and Bezuidenhout. I thank those hon members for the contributions they made.

Earlier this afternoon we had a very friendly request from the hon member for Carletonville for possible funds to increase social pensions, particularly old age pensions. Other hon members also focused attention on that aspect and made some very friendly comments.

I was, however, surprised at the way in which the hon member for Witbank did so. Let me tell the hon member that it is only two years since he left the pulpit, and one should not fall from grace so quickly, because the hon member said quite a few things here which were very far from the truth. The hon member rushed in like a bull at a gate, saying that if we increased pensions this would be a political move. I wanted to make an announcement this afternoon, but the hon member claims that we would be making a political move. I therefore think that I should not say anything more about that. [Interjections.]

Having said that in lighter vein, I want to tell hon members, including those on this side of the House—the hon members for Maraisburg and Kimberley North also referred to this—that we are all very concerned indeed about our aged. That is true, and in an interpellation I said that I was fully aware of the fact that there were old people who were in financial straits. I am fully aware that if the aged have to live on a mere R251 per month, and that if a married couple who are still living in their own home receive only R500 per month, with which they have to meet their obligations, they will probably not make ends meet. We fully appreciate that fact.

Reference was quite rightly made to the fact—I think by the hon member for Pietersburg—that there were also other means by which these aged persons could be assisted. We are very grateful for the rebates granted by the SABC, the Post Office, the South African Transport Services, etc.

There are also the social emergency aid schemes made available by the department. In Durban, for example, food packages valued at approximately R26 000 have been distributed over a period of six months, and we are continuing with that project. These schemes also exist in other centres.

I do want to focus hon members’ attention on the fact that in our overall budget this year more than R600 million is being spent on the care of the aged. If one looks at the amount for old age pensions, one sees that there are 140 840 individuals to whom an amount of R448,2 million is being paid out. As I stand here this afternoon, I would very much like to increase that pension to R351 per month, but one can do the necessary calculations. If one has approximately 140 000 recipients, and one multiplies that by R100 per month, one sees what amount is involved. The question that immediately arises is where we are going to obtain those funds. It is not only the White population group that wants an increase; the other population groups, of course, will make the same request. The actual problem facing the State is where it is to find those funds.

The aged do not only receive pensions; we also have numerous homes for the White aged. I want to say this afternoon that my department subsidises 423 homes for the White aged which accommodate 29 639 of them. There are 114 private old age homes for Whites accommodating 5 497 aged persons. There are four State homes for the aged accommodating 360 individuals, and there are four homes for the aged administered by a private company on behalf of the department. These homes for the aged accommodate 534 aged persons. What is the position? At the moment there are 545 homes for the aged in South Africa, and those 545 homes for the aged accommodate 36 030 of the White aged.

This afternoon mention was made here of parity. I am not someone who continually draws comparisons between what the various population groups receive. Having told hon members that the White population group has 545 homes for the aged, let me add that the other three population groups jointly have approximately 70 homes for the aged. I am merely mentioning this to hon members so that they can determine, when all is said and done, where the State must obtain the money to maintain all these facilities. In the present financial year we are subsidising these 423 homes for the aged to the tune of R142 million.

It is a fact that if one has granted approval for a project to start a home for the aged, and if one has begun to provide operating capital, one cannot say, the following year, that one no longer has that operating capital. One has to continue with the subsidisation until that project no longer exists. It is a question of many decades before that happens. In other words, this subsidisation has a carry-over effect, requiring an increasing amount of money from the department each year.

Having said that, let me emphasise once more that we shall continue to do more for our aged, that we want to do more out of gratitude for what they have done in the past, for their constructive contributions, for the care of their children and for the contribution they have made to the community. We are not forgetting them, but the funds are simply not available.

I do want to give the assurance that the Ministers’ Council will hold discussions with the hon the Minister of Finance to see whether funds are not possibly available, to see whether we cannot possibly grant assistance. We have never tried to link pensions to the inflation rate index. It is simply not possible. We simply cannot do so. No government has ever tried to do so. I therefore give hon members who spoke about the aged here this afternoon the assurance that the matter is actually being given sympathetic attention, that we are concerned about our aged and that we really want to help them.

May I please ask everyone this afternoon to remove the question of our aged from the political arena. [Interjections.]

You never have! You guys never have!

May I ask hon members this afternoon to have us remove the question of homes for the aged from the political arena. Let us do so.

The NP would never do that!

Thank you very much; we shall be doing so. [Interjections.] We shall be doing so. Do not alarm our aged.

Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister says we must not make the aged and homes for the aged a political issue, but may I ask him whether he would ask the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development to stop saying, in a pamphlet, that the NP is paying pensions to the aged and providing them with homes for the aged? [Interjections.]

I think that was probably a printing error. [Interjections.] It is the Government that pays for that. We have all agreed—the hon member for Middelburg also endorsed this—that we are not going to make our aged and our homes for the aged an issue in the coming election. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Witbank referred to the aged who are being assaulted and murdered. That is true. We ourselves are concerned about this. I am grateful to the SA Police for the work they are doing and the courses they are offering, for example, to make the aged more aware of greater safety precautions that can be taken.

I think it is the responsibility of all of us to speak to our aged, to speak to our aged as parents. The aged are not very keen on locking their doors. The aged take things at face value; they are quick to open the door when someone knocks. The aged are quick to let people in. Let us talk to them about this, because it is the Government’s policy—our aged also want this—to keep them in the community and in their homes for as long as possible.

The hon member for Wellington made his apologies. He cannot be here this afternoon. He referred very appreciatively to the work being done in children’s homes. I want to thank him for what he said about the Murray Children’s Home at Wellington. That is a children’s home that is doing wonderful work.

The department also has a new policy with regard to children’s homes. We are moving away from the block-type children’s home because we actually want to build dwelling units. Every dwelling unit accommodates approximately 10 children, allowing children to grow up in a homelier atmosphere and environment. We shall continue to look after these children. The hon member for Wellington specifically said they should not be sent from one prison to another. What he meant by that is they must not be sent from their homes, where they are so unhappy in any event, to some other place where they would be equally unhappy. We do not want children’s homes to present a prison-like atmosphere or image. They must be happy homes for our children.

The hon member for Durban Central spoke of a single welfare department. For years, in fact for decades, there have been separate welfare departments in this country, and if there is one field in which this works, in which this really works well, it is the welfare field. I know that there are organisations that do not like that. Notwithstanding that, those organisations have never clearly and scientifically explained their reasons for saying that it cannot work. In practice it does work, specifically because in the field of welfare regulation takes place on a practical basis.

I want to request the hon member for Parktown please to listen for once. In the field of welfare one is dealing with separate population groups, with their various cultures, their various traditions and their various habits. Let us simply examine the question of homes for the aged. Does the hon member for Parktown realise that amongst the Black peoples it is the responsibility of the eldest son to look after his parents until they die? That is why we find, amongst the Blacks, fewer old age homes than amongst the Whites. Does the hon member know, too, that the Coloureds and Indians prefer to live together? Surely the hon member knows that to be true. [Interjections.]

There are consequently aspects in the welfare field that are worlds apart and that can be dealt with exceptionally well by way of separate welfare departments. Surely they do not exist in isolation. There are, after all, interdepartmental committees. There is co-ordination. There is overall policy that is implemented. That is specifically why we also have a Cabinet Minister who looks after these matters. Surely there is no truth in the contention that every department simply goes its own way, adopts its own course of action, without any question of overall policy.

I want to state here this afternoon that I am convinced that the separate welfare departments in this country function very well. I am also asking that we should not hamper them in the work they are doing, but rather encourage them to continue to do so.

The hon member for Edenvale referred to the pharmaceutical industry and the high costs involved in that industry. I want to tell the hon member that in the foreseeable future we hope to receive the first interim report dealing with the pharmaceutical industry and the high costs of medicines. It will be the interim report of Dr Wim de Villiers. I also want to tell the hon member that the Government is very concerned about the high cost of medicines. There are many factors that have given rise to the high cost of medicines. Hence the in-depth investigation into this matter. The hon member is quite right when he says that preventive medicine is the answer. I thank the hon member very sincerely for her contribution.

The hon member for Worcester also apologised for not being here this afternoon. I should like to thank him in his absence. Throughout the years the hon member for Worcester, who is not making himself available for re-election, has shown a very great interest in the School for the Deaf and the School for the Blind at Worcester. It was a pleasure to accompany him recently on a visit to those schools where we also encountered the needs and circumstances of those with multiple disabilities. It was gratifying to have been able to provide for those needs, to have been able to make a contribution.

What is more, I think the hon member is still an honorary member of the ACVV, and he and his wife have made major contributions, particularly in regard to the community at Worcester. I specifically want to thank him very sincerely for that.

The hon member for Pinetown also spoke about pensions. Over and above that, the hon member for Pinetown also asked me a question about a matter which they discussed in the Extended Public Committee on the Appropriation of the Transvaal. His question concerned the Coronation Hospital and the J G Strijdom Hospital.

Earlier this afternoon, of course, I indicated very clearly that, with the establishment of the own affairs administration a few years ago, it was decided that, when a hospital accommodated a certain percentage of Whites, such a hospital would be a White hospital. That is why the J G Strijdom Hospital has been identified as such. The Coronation Hospital has been identified as a hospital for people of colour. I said clearly—hon members must please listen to this—that on occasion there has been a spill-over from the Coronation Hospital to the J G Strijdom Hospital. We accepted those patients and treated them because it is a training hospital. I said that we would continue to do so. I therefore cannot understand what is bothering hon members, particularly the hon member for Parktown.

I want to tell the hon member for Parktown—I do not think he will again be participating in a debate of this kind—that I have experience of the fact that he is a good medical practitioner, and I respect the Barnards as medical practitioners. I also have respect for him. He referred me, one day, to a very good specialist, and I am feeling fine. I want to tell him, however, that throughout the years he has remained a stupid politician, that being the reason why now, at the end of his political career, it is being said that he is unaligned. What that means, I do not quite know. I want to tell him that he must not continually drag medicine and hospitals into the political arena. He must speak to those left-wing medical practitioners and friends of his so that he can make a good contribution and so that the point that is focused on is, in fact, curing people and providing services.

What are you talking about?

Do not drag politics into everything. The superintendent of the J G Strijdom Hospital, Dr Van der Merwe, did not resign because it was an own affairs hospital. She left because she obtained a better post. Let her be honest and acknowledge that.

And the other staff that resigned?

I want to thank all hon members who participated—I think I have more or less referred to everyone—for their contributions. This is a wonderful department with wonderful people who make use of the opportunities they have in the interests of the people of South Africa, and let me say this afternoon that I am grateful and proud to be able to serve the White population group of South Africa. [Interjections.]

Debate concluded.

Mr Chairman, we have arrived at the beginning of a new financial year. When arriving at the start of a financial year in general, a person usually experiences a feeling of relief, a feeling which enables him to cast away the stresses of problems encountered during the preceding year, albeit only for a moment or one day. He somehow manages to muster a smile, mainly because of the encouraging attitude displayed by his neighbours. With the attitude displayed by some people in the NP Government, I would sooner have no neighbour.

Looking back to the start of the 1988-89 financial year, I can vividly recall myself and the top structure of my department brimming with confidence, and eagerly looking forward to meeting the challenges which lay ahead of us. However, no sooner had we started out than we were struck by the impact of the system by which funds are generated to the department to finance its educational needs.

In the early stages of that particular year we still had our tails up, hoping that sense would prevail at the Government end of affairs. However, it gradually dawned on us that we were to stop wagging our tails and instead go—with tail between the legs—begging for extra funds to fulfil our educational obligations towards the community. The LP and I have never be known to crawl or beg. We most certainly will not start doing so now. If the Government is insensitive to our needs, then it is my duty to inform the community of the implications of Government measures and more especially of Government attitudes.

I fully realise that it is my and my department’s duty to promote the community’s educational welfare within our limited resources. I fully subscribe to the idea and policy of strict financial discipline in times of economic hardship and to this end I can prove that we have exhausted ourselves in trying to cope with the funds allocated to our department. On the other hand we have also exhausted ourselves in trying to convince the relevant authorities of the impracticalities we face in satisfying community needs with the limited allocated funds.

I want this House to note that I strongly object to the attitude displayed by the governing party—that is in terms of the total Parliament—when dealing with the obvious inadequacies in the educational set-up of our community. I say attitudes, because attitudes play a very important role when measures are adopted. For example, when we look at the physical state of the Bechet College complex in Durban as opposed to that of the Edgewood College of Education for Whites or at the Athlone College complex in Paarl as opposed to that of the Paarl College of Education for Whites—which is just across the road from the Athlone College of Education—it makes perfect sense for a financing system or method to be devised to bring our totally unsuitable buildings on a par with generally prescribed standards which, incidentally, is the case with education colleges for our White counterparts.

Proceeding to devise a financing system aimed at equalising the education standards for all different racial groups in the Republic, so to speak, and yet to make no explicit provision for the generating of funds to upgrade or replace unsuitable buildings, certainly makes no sense at all. The only sense it makes to me is that the community that I represent is in fact expected to receive education in such unsuitable buildings. This way of thinking displays an attitude I have never accepted and never will accept.

The fact is that my department must replace these buildings to convince the community not only of the fact that their educational needs will be tended to in such a way that the highest possible standards will be achieved and maintained, but also to convince them of the viability of negotiation politics. The last-mentioned factor is also the reason why, in my 1988 Budget Speech, I spoke out against the irrationality of Government attitudes. Instead of allowing my department to use an education college complex for the purpose for which it was erected, the complex is handed over to the Police or army or whatever.

Especially hurtful for is the fact that the Nationalist Government was bold enough to admit that it had erred in the past as far as its policy of apartheid was concerned. This admission was admired, accepted and appreciated by all of us—so much the more reason why we should expect a far more sympathetic and a reasonable approach to our educational needs.

Allow me to cite one more example, Mr Chairman. Blue Downs is the culmination of the Group Areas Act. It did not come about because of our own doing, but we are compelled to live there perforce of circumstances. It is there. It is a reality. My department must provide for the educational needs of the particular community locally, but in order to do so we need funds. In this regard our building programme has virtually ground to a halt because the funds allocated to us barely meet our running costs. I shall come back to the matter of financing later.

When I tried to explain the position regarding our funds to the community in realistic terms, I was inundated with inquiries and objections. In view of what I said earlier it is quite understandable that the community refuses to accept the fact that there are no funds. How does one explain a lack of funds to build a school when just across the road a school building is half empty or even empty, but unutilised? Yet my hon colleague in the House of Assembly argues that the policy not to open White Government schools to all races is built on sound foundations. I ask myself how educationally and economically sound such a policy ever can be.

I am sure that this House shares with me this sense of despondency at the beginning of this financial year. Nevertheless, the LP of which I am the leader and I remain committed to the politics of negotiation rather than the politics of confrontation, in terms of some people’s thinking. It is therefore with a measure of renewed vigour and determination that I wish to assure the community at large that my and my party’s commitment and dedication to a free national education system devised to enable all able students of all races equal opportunity of receiving the highest specialist training certainly remains intact.

I wish to take this opportunity to thank the teaching fraternity for its support in stabilising the situation at secondary schools in the Cape Peninsula. I know that the ideal position has not yet been reached, but their efforts in getting it to what it is at present are certainly commendable.

The Ministers’ Council and the top structure of my department recently had talks with the Union of Teachers’ Associations of South Africa, Utasa. The message that emerged quite clearly was that the task of education was bigger than both of us, and that in-fighting could therefore serve no useful purpose. At that meeting I offered my hand in friendship, as I also do now. Come let us take hands and together serve our people who have already indicated that, with proper guidance, they are more than willing to meet the challenges which lie ahead of us. It must be guidance derivative of deliberation and sound leadership; guidance that would lead to a responsible and orderly freedom as opposed to an irresponsible and chaotic freedom. What we want to underscore again this afternoon is that freedom is in no way licence. Guidance that would lead to prosperity rather than destruction and bloodshed is needed.

I also wish to take the opportunity of thanking our children, our young people, the future generation, for the responsible way in which they have responded to the calls for rational behaviour to prevail. I firmly believe that the state of emergency measures did not play an all important role, if any, in bringing about a situation in schools that is more conducive to learning than it was just over a year or two ago. Boycotts and disruptions of the education programme surely succeeded in making them aware of the political problems we face on our way to achieving our goal of equality and freedom. I am also sure that it has already dawned upon them, our young people and our students, that equality within a state or condition of reckless freedom can only lead to a new struggle. It is a struggle for responsible and orderly freedom, which at that point in time may prove impossible to achieve. Violence has a tendency to escalate. Though it may simmer, it never completely subsides.

*I know there have been sporadic outbursts of anger at nonsensical conduct, such as the cosmeticisation of legislation on separate residential areas, etc. I can give hon members the assurance, and this has already been demonstrated, that the LP and I will fight evils of this nature tooth and nail. [Interjections.] I think our conduct yesterday is a demonstration of the seriousness of this matter. I also know that attempts are still being made here and there to incite young people to irresponsible behaviour within the school context, but it will unfortunately be necessary for people to guard against that themselves. Order is basically not the duty of policemen; it is a duty which each individual owes to another. Policemen simply have the duty of maintaining order when people are not behaving in an orderly way.

My message to our young people is a trenchant one: Be confident, fiery and enthusiastic, but remember that any fire which is not controlled destroys first what one loves most, and ultimately it destroys you. I want to appeal to our young people to use their God-given intelligence and talents with which they have been blessed to distinguish between paths that lead to equality and orderly freedom and paths which lead to equality and irresponsible and intimidatory freedom.

On this occasion I also want to make an appeal to the Government immediately to charge or release all pupils, students and teachers who may still be in detention and who have not yet been charged. [Interjections.] I want to praise the hon the Minister of Law and Order for what he has already done. Nevertheless we ask that the entire position be reviewed. I also want to ask the House in advance to leave no stone unturned when it comes to the education of our children, but to make use of every opportunity to promote the educational welfare of our children by making their voices heard in national committees and meetings when educational standards are under discussion, particularly when educational standards are threatened by matters such as an undersupply of funds.

I owe it to this House, by way of review, to report back on the progress made with projects that were envisaged in my last budget speech. It is with disappointment that I must report that a problem is foreseen with funds for the question of the upgrading of low-qualified teachers. The target groups have been fully identified and a syllabus committee was appointed last year. Because education is an own affair for our community, while the conditions of service of teachers is a general affair, the decision of the Ministers’ Council must first receive the blessing of the other governmental bodies before it is possible to reach the implementation stage. Nevertheless the department is giving constant attention to this matter.

In connection with the timeous notification of appointments, all appointments of teachers in promotion posts were, as promised, disposed of in good time last year. The notifications were issued before the school year ended. [Interjections.] It was not possible to dispose of some cases in time. By October all our appointments—that is to say more than 3 000, were made. It was not possible to dispose of some cases in time—through no fault of my own or that of the department, but because of other separate reasons, for example the late submission of recommendations by a manager, school principal, school committee or the regional council of a school. The envisaged development of the campus of the training centre for seamen, namely the Victoria complex in Table Bay harbour, meant that the site required for the new campus would play a role in the aforesaid developments. Consequently negotiations are now in progress with the Cape Town City Council with regard to another suitable site.

Acting on the instructions of the Commission for Administration the department has made a start with the privatisation of the provision of food at hostels. It has been decided, with effect from 1 January 1989, to allocate to a firm a tender for one trial year for the provision of food to boarders at two hostels attached to secondary schools and one hostel attached to an education college.

Since the department previously budgeted an annual amount of R80 000 per hostel in respect of provisions and it would now appear as though this amount will be exceeded by more than 100%, it is clear that it will not be possible to proceed with the privatisation of the State hostels of this department. The matter is being taken up with the government body concerned.

In spite of the financial circumstances the following progress can nevertheless be reported. As the House is already aware a Deputy Minister of Education and Culture, in the person of Mr Abe Williams, was appointed during March 1989. I deemed the appointment to be necessary, not so much to afford me relief, but rather to ensure that all education matters, particularly those forming the foundation of and supporting education, were purposefully promoted. Later in the debate the hon the Deputy Minister will elaborate at greater length on the important role which culture plays in the community. I am certain that this House will understand the earnestness with which this aspect deserves to be regarded and that the need for special attention to it is also thoroughly realised and appreciated. On this occasion, too, I want to wish the Deputy Minister everything of the best in the important task that lies ahead for him, including of course in respect of his difficult task of working under and with me.

As far as family guidance is concerned, the Executive Director of Education and Culture and an expert official of the department visited the USA last year to evaluate the system the Americans have for dealing with adolescent behaviour, with specific reference to drug abuse. The incorporation of useful aspects of the American system in family guidance and the testing of the adapted programme as a pilot scheme at seven schools before it is implemented as a revised programme is being envisaged.

Recently frequent references have been made to alternative education and what is then summarily considered is the replacement of the existing order with something which, according to its creators, would be more relevant and acceptable. Since education in whatever form never stagnates, it is of greater importance to see how the present system can be adapted to satisfy the manifold needs of the broader community.

It is here that the Department of Education and Culture and the Administration: House of Representatives must play a significant part in the pre-career training class phase of every pupil. Not only does the department address the needs of young boys and girls at this phase, but it ensures that the pupils receive the necessary guidance in making an effective choice from the various fields of study now offered at secondary school level.

In regard to the nature and relevance of career-oriented education, this form of education is aimed at offering the pupil a variety of career-oriented courses. Course content is structured in such a way as to effect the highest possible correlation with careers in trade and industry. Pupils who have taken career-oriented courses are absorbed into the labour market without much difficulty.

With regard to the introduction of career-oriented education, large numbers of pupils at primary schools are provided with guidance annually by experts, principals of primary and secondary schools are constantly briefed at meetings, articles are occasionally published in dailies and periodicals and even career-oriented institutions are actively engaged in publicising their activities by means of open days, career exhibitions, briefing sessions and course brochures.

In the vocational phase the department offers career-oriented courses at secondary schools with a technical direction, at special schools and also at proficiency schools. The object of the technical field of study is to create an appropriate foundation among pupils for further study in or the adopting of a career particularly in the technological sphere.

Special schools are aimed at teaching pupils, who are either sense-retarded or neurologically-retarded, basic skills for easier adaptation and entry to the open labour market. Proficiency schools make specific provision for pupils who are learning-impaired, and here more emphasis is placed on practical proficiency than on academic proficiency.

The department is also involved in vocational training at technical colleges and training centres. These institutions are aimed at serving the community in virtually every sphere, but for the most part commercial and technical training is being provided.

As regards commercial training, the courses offered by the technical colleges are extremely popular and so structured that students with a Standard 10 certificate can be included in advanced occupational training depending on the school subjects chosen. However, provision is also being made, without any lowering—and I emphasise this—of academic standards, for those who wish to receive vocational training prior to Standard 10.

The vocational fields covered by technical colleges are very wide and extend from commerce, art, educare, child care, care of the aged and care of the handicapped, clothing production, computer operation and domestic science to hairdressing. These unique courses are known as national certificate courses, or the so-called N courses extending from N1 to N6. Unfortunately they have not yet succeeded in the technique of making our hair black again, or of curing baldness.

To be admitted to an N1 course a student must be at least 16 years old and have passed Standard 7.

Students who cannot afford to study full-time can take the courses on a part-time basis. This method of training affords the student the opportunity of working and studying at the same time.

In particular it is the provision of technical education on secondary school level which is continuing unabated in spite of a lack of the necessary funds.

In January 1989 two new such schools were established at Eldorado Park in Johannesburg and Buffalo Flats in East London.

Consequently there are now 14 secondary schools with a technical field of study, while three purely academic secondary schools include technical drawing in their curriculum. The planning of further secondary schools with a technical field of study has reached an advanced stage so that two new schools will commence tuition in 1990, namely Ennerdale No 2, Johannesburg, and Eersterus No 2, Pretoria. Tenders have already been allocated for Uitenhage No 2, Port Elizabeth, Mitchell’s Plain No 17 in the Cape and De Aar Secondary School, De Aar, while schools at Beaufort West and O’Kiep are in the tender stage.

As far as post-school education is concerned the planning of new campuses for technical colleges in Bethelsdorp and Athlone are in an advanced stage. The expected tender date for the first phase of development of the Bethelsdorp Technical College is June 1989, while negotiations are at present in progress with the city council of Cape Town on additional land for the campus of the Athlone Technical College.

In spite of the relatively poor accommodation which technical colleges have to contend with, the aforementioned institutions are producing good results. It is gratifying to be able to report that the department’s colleges have succeeded in winning all three awards, presented by the Steel Engineering Industries Federation on a trimester basis, for the second trimester of 1988. This is a remarkable achievement if one bears in mind that the competition applied to all the colleges of all the education departments.

As regards special education, I am certain this House will also be interested in the development and progress made in this sphere. During the 1988-89 financial year, 31 new adjustment classes for mentally retarded pupils were introduced and at present there are 599 adjustment classes at 305 schools. Owing to the great demand for adjustment classes, an attempt is being made to establish a further 25 classes.

The Florida Proficiency School for the precareer training of the older adjustment class boys and girls was established as a pilot project in July 1988. The objective of the school is to prepare pupils for placement in service on the open labour market. At present 50 boys and girls are receiving academic education as well as technical training in stone masonry, painting and decorating work, upholstery work and general needlework at the Florida Proficiency School. Since the proficiency school has already demonstrated that pre-career training can make a major contribution towards counteracting unemployment and the accompanying problem of impoverishment, the establishment of a similar second proficiency school is now being planned.

The provision of remedial education to learning impaired pupils remains a high priority with the department, since the good results with remedial education are clearly discernible in the scholastic progress of pupils. An attempt is being made to introduce at least another 15 remedial classes during the new financial year.

I come now to training centres for severely retarded children. During March 1988 a start was made at the Dorothea Training Centre in Stellenbosch with the first new building project for a training centre designed according to the new norms of the department’s accommodation schedule.

As far as special education is concerned, considerable progress is being made. First of all I want to refer to schools of industry and reform schools. The need for accommodation in schools of industry for girls has to a large extent been alleviated by the completion of the building project at the Wellington School of Industry for Girls. A new school of industry for girls is already under construction in Faure. It is hoped that the new school will be ready for occupation early in 1990.

The renovation of the buildings of the existing reform school for girls and their provisional use as a school of industry for girls is being contemplated. With that the present shortage of accommodation in schools of industry for girls ought to have been eliminated. The next step will be to construct schools of industry for girls and boys in the Witwatersrand area.

A start has been made with the planning of a State school for 250 Afrikaans-speaking hearing impaired pupils, which will include hostel accommodation for 80 children, as well as a centre for 100 mentally retarded and hearing impaired children, with hostel accommodation for 60 boarders. The Afrikaans-speaking pupils of the Dominican School for the Deaf will be transferred to the new school so that this school can expand its facilities for the English-speaking hearing impaired pupils.

Two new school clinics were constructed in Johannesburg and Kimberley during the past financial year. The demand for school clinics remains high and the erection of at least one new school clinic, depending on available funds, during the 1989-90 financial year is being contemplated.

As far as hospital schools are concerned the department established a hospital school at the West End Hospital during the report year. Arrangements were made for the St Josephs Hospital School for chronically ill children at Montana in the Cape, with a total of 101 pupils during 1989, to be converted into a State-subsidised special school for the purpose of improving amenities and services for these pupils.

I come now to schools for the neurologically handicapped. In 1988 the number of pupils in these schools was 1 002. The building of a new State school for autistic children in Cape Town, as well as a school for the cerebral palsied in Mitchell’s Plain, will commence during 1989-90. As medical science progresses, pupils with a disability are identified earlier. Consequently building projects are now being rapidly proceeded with to exploit the potential of these handicapped pupils to the maximum. That funds expended on special attention are in fact an investment for the future appears from the fact that the 1988 matric examination result at Eros school reflects a percentage pass of 83,3%. This is an exceptional achievement. [Interjections.] The performance of these and other handicapped children are consequently being observed with interest.

I now want to say something about the training of teachers. The department is at present experiencing an acute shortage of qualified teachers in the natural sciences to teach scientifically-oriented subjects in an effective way on secondary level. In order to overcome this shortage the department concluded a contract with the University of Port Elizabeth in terms of which the university will provide formal in-service training to underqualified teachers of the department in order to improve their qualifications in mathematics and the natural sciences. Initially only teachers in the Eastern Cape are being involved in this in-service training project.

The in-service training of the teachers concerned commenced in January and the department is very confident that in this way they will become better equipped for their teaching task. Similar programmes involving the University of the Western Cape and Stellenbosch University already exist in the Cape Peninsula.

As regards the promotion of culture I am in earnest about expanding this as widely as possible. I am giving attention to the appointment of senior personnel not only at head office but also on a regional level. It is gratifying to be able to report that more and more cultural organisations, youth groups, sports clubs and unions are applying for financial support. I wish that it were possible to consider all applications favourably, but as a result of limited funds we have to deal with these applications strictly according to priority. I do not want to discourage any organisation from applying for financial support. We should like to help wherever we can. I want to emphasise, however, that organisations are expected not only to rely on some help from the department but to do everything within their own means to become self-supporting. We will help those organisations that have proved that they are prepared to help themselves.

I recently approved the establishment of regional councils for cultural matters. For this purpose the Republic of South Africa will be divided up into eight regions and a council will be formed for every region. The activities of such regional councils will be to preserve, develop, promote and expand culture, as expressed in the region for which it has been appointed and to make recommendations of its own accord or at the request of the Minister on how culture, as it finds expression in the region in question, may best be preserved, developed, promoted and expanded. In particular this can take place by means of non-formal extramural education for juveniles and adults in the following spheres, namely the visual, display and literary arts; the acquisition of knowledge by popular means of the applied sciences and the natural and human sciences; leisure-time utilisation, including physical recreation activities which are of such a nature that they do not include coaching courses with a view to participation in competitions; and other spheres determined from time to time by the Minister. It is my wish that we shall be able to succeed in finding knowledgeable persons in the sphere of culture to serve on these councils.

While we are talking about culture, I want to congratulate this department on an exceptional achievement, namely the presentation by our schoolchildren of the Cinderella ballet in the Nico Malan Theatre. It was indeed a great encouragement to me and others, particularly because of the fact that there were eight parents and children who decided to participate despite opposition and unhappiness, as well as a ban imposed by a school principal. We admire such parents and children.

There are a few problems with which my department has been struggling for quite some time now. As hon members are aware, the department must at present try to solve its problems on its own because, unlike other education departments, it does not have the support of organised education where it has to put its case in the community and to authoritative committees. We are nevertheless devoting sustained attention to the problems.

One of them is the allocation of funds. I come back to the position of funds. I should like to present the problem my department is experiencing in this respect in its correct perspective so that the House can have a full picture of this matter. I regret to have to tire this House with details, but unfortunately there is no other way of presenting this matter in its correct and full perspective. Up to and including the 1986-87 financial year, funds for education and culture were allocated according to a system of budgeting by objectives. According to this system increasing needs were budgeted for by way of a percentage increase. It is interesting to note that it was possible to return an amount of approximately R9 million to the State coffers for the 1986-87 financial year.

With effect from the 1987-88 financial year the subsidy formula budgeting system was substituted for the system of budgeting by objectives, and immediately an excess of R50 million was experienced. In my opinion the word “excess” is inappropriate. It should instead be called underprovision, particularly because my department pointed out the problem to the authorities concerned before the commencement of the financial year in question.

The position deteriorated further for the 1988-89 financial year and an underprovision of R123 million was experienced. Hon members will recall that I expressed my misgivings with regard to the system and the allocated amount in my budget speech last year.

I also informed the House of a mechanism, the financial control committee, which my department introduced to monitor and control the spending of funds. Proof of the extent to which they had to scale down education services is to be found in the community and in the Press. After all, hon members must have heard of the outcry which ensued when I spelt out, in a realistic way, the implications—and I emphasise the word “implications”—of the underprovision to the community. The said underprovision can in real terms be equated to the salaries and conditions of service of 2 434 teachers. I never said that they were going to be dismissed. However, this is wilfully being interpreted in this way. [Interjections.] If that hon member does not understand what I am dealing with, we shall pardon him. [Interjections.] What I said was wrested so badly out of context that the Executive Director of Education and Culture at present stands indicted in the eyes of the teachers as not having done enough to protect the occupational security and integrity of the profession.

Talking about integrity, Sir, would Utasa, or rather the Union of Teachers’ Associations of South Africa and the CPTA, or rather the Cape Professional Teachers’ Association, like to give me and the Ministers’ Council a motivated explanation of what they mean when they demand that the Executive Director of Education and Culture should keep me as the responsible Minister “in check”. Have hon members ever heard the like? At the end of my speech, Sir, this House can judge for itself how much truth there is in the aforesaid charges concerning occupational security and integrity.

At this point I feel compelled to express my gratitude to those responsible principals who interpreted the context of my statement on the financial position of the department in the spirit in which it was made. Consequently they also reacted positively to the appeal which my department made on them to adjust their school timetables and allocate the tuition duties in such a way that maximum productivity could be assured.

This morning I heard a joke about the little fellow in Worcester who had to go to school for the first time. When he arrived home that afternoon his mother asked him what school had been like. He told her that he had not liked it, because it was merely a question of “rooster, braai, en braaivleis”. The mother then wanted to know how that could be and what was going on at school, because he had gone there to learn. His reply to her was: “Nee, toe ons in die klas is, kom die prinsipaal en hy sê vir die juffrou sy moet haar rooster vir hom daar na buite toe bring.”

In spite of the excellent co-operation the department receives from a large number of principals, additional funds still had to be obtained and in this respect I also want to convey my thanks to the sister departments in the administration for their support in this connection.

To come back to the point I was dealing with, Sir, the reality of the funding problem is clearly apparent from the fact that with the allocated amount for the 1989-90 financial year, an underprovision of approximately R250 million is expected.

The budget is divided into the following categories: Programme 1: Administration, which includes salaries for administrative personnel, boarding and transport allowances, hire of accommodation, etc, R57 444 000.

Programme No 2, Education, includes the salaries of CS-educators and other personnel at educational institutions, as well as all means directly involved in education on its various levels, etc—excluding technikons and universities—and for this an amount of R1 216 290 000 has been appropriated.

Programme No 3 covers tertiary education. Involved in this amount are the subsidies to the University of the Western Cape—although they do not want to recognise us—and the Peninsula Technikon. I must say, though, that their rectors came to see me and made appeals. The amount appropriated is R90 559 000.

Programme No 4 has been completely inadequately funded, and covers the grants to cultural and sports organisations. The amount is R6 152 000. The total for this Vote is consequently R1 370 445 000. As regards the total amount of R1 370 445 000, it is clear that nothing can be done about the amount of R90 557 000 which is going to the university and the technikon. This leaves a balance of R1 279 888 000. The personnel expenses, that is in the form of salaries, bonuses and other conditions of service of teachers and administrative personnel was plus-minus R75 000 000 per month up to and including November 1988. Since then salaries have been increased by plus-minus 22%, which means that the monthly personnel expenditure is now plus-minus R90 500 000; in other words, the total is therefore R1 086 000 000.

You will realise, Mr Chairman, that this amount does not include the essential establishment expansion as a result of new schools and increased pupil intakes. Over and above this fact, it is surely not possible to tamper with this amount! That leaves us with a balance of R193 888 000 with which to operate the remainder of the educational services.

There are also other expenses which the department is compelled to incur, such as water and electricity supply, as well as other contractual obligations that have to be complied with by law. These obligations amount to plus-minus R50 million, and leave us with a balance of R143 888 000. This means that the latter amount must cover the following expenses: Post and telegraph expenses, bus transportation services, board and lodging allowances, study bursaries, provisioning and equipping of educational institutions, repair and maintenance of equipment and furniture, boarding and transport allowances, etc. The total need for the latter items amounts to plus-minus R396 370 000; in other words there is a deficit of plus-minus R252 482 000.

As far as buildings and grounds are concerned, an amount of R210 million has been made available to the Department of Local Government, Housing and Agriculture. This amount has not been included in the above figure. It is hopelessly insufficient to meet the need for buildings for new schools, replacement buildings and extensions, hostels and school halls. In addition existing school grounds must also be developed with this money.

This House must bear in mind that the Kuils River College buildings cost approximately R138 million. This does not include supplies, furniture and equipment. A new secondary school with technical workshops costs approximately R6,3 million, an ordinary secondary school approximately R3,7 million, a primary school approximately R2,3 million, a hostel approximately R2,5 million and a school hall approximately R1 million. The latter two items were calculated according to 1987 figures because it was not possible to build any hostels or school halls last year. The development of school premises to make provision for sports facilities etc cost approximately R400 000. I do not think it is necessary to tire hon members with any further details. I ask myself, however, how with the best will in the world my department can balance this budget without touching personnel expenditure. How can personnel expenditure be curtailed without reducing the number of personnel? Taking into consideration the feeling in the community in regard to the admitted shortfalls and raw deals in the past, is it justified that expenses allocated in accordance with the approved personnel provision scales should be reduced?

†With these simple yet penetrating questions I rest my case as far as the provision of funds for the purpose of promoting and uplifting education in the community is concerned.

In considering the answer to these questions, I would like to quote from a speech delivered by Dr C J Saunders on 9 November 1988 at the Federated Chamber of Industries banquet in Pietermaritzburg, which I fully endorse. He said:

This is my message to the Government at this particular juncture.

Somehow the straitjacket and group determination of our educational system has got to be discarded, and we say this emphatically, and more thinking, more creative and, above all, more tolerant attitudes must be adopted.

There is a vast difference between individual rights and group thinking. The State’s policies are based on group identity. There is absolutely nothing wrong with emphasising the importance and the relevance of certain group interests, provided they are not—and I repeat not—carried to a point where the group right becomes a divisive principle, rather than a unifying force.

In view of the oversupply of teachers on the one hand and the financial circumstances on the other, it has become imperative that a new system for supplying financial aid to students be devised.

As far as the first-mentioned problem is concerned, the department has already tightened up the selection measures for admission to education colleges so that only those pupils who maintain good averages throughout the year are allowed to train as teachers.

I want to point out that the oversupply of primary school teachers is mainly confined to city areas because newly qualified teachers are reluctant to take up posts in the rural areas. [Interjections.] It is a sad situation when our youngsters come from the rural areas to the Cape for training and then do not go back to put into the community that which they have realised here. At the beginning of the year, for instance, 2 000 teachers, of whom half were newly qualified, were jobless, while vacancies were in abundance in scarcely populated areas. This phenomenon prompts me to give serious attention to the system whereby financial assistance for the purpose of teacher training is given to students who can or who are prepared to fulfil our educational needs in rural areas.

The student community must come to the realisation and understanding that rural families are part and parcel of us and that the need for properly qualified teachers is perhaps more pressing than for those in the city areas. Therefore, when it comes to the upliftment of standards of education, we must be careful not to adopt an attitude synonymous to that which I referred to earlier in my address.

From a vantage point of post-apartheid it is necessary that the community as a whole be equally equipped educationally and otherwise to be able to compete for positions in society. I remember saying this to various schools and communities as far back as 1975 when I was on the CRC’s executive committee in charge of education. We as politicians will open the door, but it is up to the teachers and the pupils to see that they are equipped to enter those doors when we open them. If the rural child lags behind, it could very well be due to the selfishness on the part of those teachers who are equipped, but not willing to go to the rural areas.

References to other communities will not help us to solve educational problems in our community. I therefore want to appeal to our sense of oneness when matters of this nature are dealt with.

The whole issue can, of course, change altogether if—and only if—properly qualified teachers and especially newly qualified teachers are prepared to offer their services to the rural components of our community. I would therefore like to appeal to such willing teachers to approach the department in this regard. I can assure them that their sacrifices will eventually be rewarded. Unselfish and uncompromising service to the community has and always will be rewarded, although this can be misinterpreted in some quarters.

Due to the shortage of properly qualified teachers in the rural areas I deemed it necessary and proper to reward the stalwarts in those areas by relaxing the category requirement for permanent appointment to posts of principal P4.

Hear, hear!

I am even prepared to consider further concessions if necessary. I think it is incumbent on me as Minister of Education and Culture to promote stability in all possible forms and at all levels of education, provided that efficiency is not compromised.

I fail to see how standards can drop because of the permanent appointment of a teacher who has been doing the work satisfactorily for a number of years continuously, the only difference being that he was doing the work in a temporary capacity because he does not conform to the category requirement attached to the particular post. During my interview with Utasa I emphasised that the highest qualified teacher is not necessarily the best teacher. We have certainly seen that in the past. I have greeted with acclaim particularly those teachers in the AA categories who gave so much of their lives and services to the community.

Hear, hear!

It is on the same grounds that I relaxed the category requirement for appointment to posts of head of department in secondary schools. [Interjections.] While it was necessary to do away with acting appointments because of a shortage of funds, this particular concession effectively obviates the necessity for making acting appointments in posts of head of department. Because people did not comply with certain category demands they could not be appointed permanently and therefore could not be paid. Having relaxed this requirement, we have now appointed them permanently and so they qualify for payment. Our next step would be to take a look at the lengthy procedure that has to be followed in making permanent appointments with a view to speeding up the process.

From the aforementioned it is obvious that educational matters are interrelated. One matter cannot and is seldom or ever dealt with in isolation. Of paramount importance is the end result one hopes to achieve. Therefore I want to serve notice timeously of my intention of having the system of financial aid for study purposes amended in such a way that the indigency factor is properly addressed. Hon members of Parliament will have to face it and perhaps we will have “some form of revolution” again. However it is unfair to equate the well-to-do student living within walking distance of the training institution with that student who comes from a rural area where the parents are in a farming community. The question of indigency must be addressed.

As far as the 1988 Senior Certificate pass rate is concerned, it cannot be denied that all and sundry greeted it with disappointment and resignation. During my 1988 budget speech I informed this House of the steps my department has taken to get to the core of this problem. I cannot anticipate the findings of the scientific research. However, one fact is abundantly clear, namely that the man in the classroom, the teacher, plays an important role in the successes achieved in examinations. The success of the man in the classroom is again dependent on the atmosphere that prevails in the school. I am afraid that I must again use the words of Dr Saunders:

However, how is it possible that Senior Certificate results in one and the same area differ by up to 20% ?

When one attempts to convey to principals—whom the community has every right to blame for the atmosphere that prevails in some schools and the obvious factors which are bound to have an adverse effect on examination results—they advance an over-abundance of reasons in defence of poor results. During our discussions the other day with Utasa I referred—in fact I appealed as I did on many other occasions—to the teachers’ sense of vocation and dedication which to a large extent seems to be lacking nowadays. Being popular in the eyes of a few ignorant pupils who look to the teacher for proper guidance is one thing. However, allowing certain irresponsible acts which have no direct bearing on education, but which lead to the disruption of the school’s programme and as a result lead to the wasting of a full year in the life of some 30% or more of one’s standard 10 pupils, one’s fellow countrymen, is another thing. To my mind it is not permissible at all. If our progress and prosperity in the future lies in seeing that this thing called man is educated, I am afraid there are quite a few principals who, if honest with themselves, have quite a lot of soul searching to do.

For instance, I had to remind this deputation of many of those who stayed away from school on 7 June last year in order to identify with the struggling masses, that at least 45% of them presented doctors’ certificates to say they were ill on that day. One has to pay the price for one’s liberty.

I want to assure this House that the energy put into education by my top officials cannot easily be equalled. In this regard it must be borne in mind that my department, unlike most of the other education departments, deals with all kinds of education at primary and secondary school level. If an overall pass rate of 73,2% is achieved in Standard 9—72,8% for the Peninsula—then it should be obvious that a pass rate of 67,8% in Standard 10—70% for the Peninsula—cannot be the fault of the department.

At this point I wish to convey my thanks and gratitude to those principals and teachers who have managed to better the average percentage pass rate for Standard 10 in 1988. In this regard I wish to repeat the old biblical saying of “deeds speak louder than words” and say that this still holds true.

*There is a tremendous need for pre-primary education in the community. The need is not concerned with keeping children off the street and caring for them. It is to provide them with real, vital stimulation and education which will develop the intellect, emotions, self-image and physique to such an extent that they will be able to assimilate the subsequent education in the primary school beneficially. Only this morning I again drew the attention of parents to the fact that they were sending children to primary school who did not even know how to hold, handle or use a pencil, and who did not even know how to page through a book and look at the pictures.

The great value of pre-primary education has already been demonstrated with the few classes—245—that have been introduced. In spite of many deficiencies, some of which have been rectified in the meantime, it has already been statistically found that the pass rate of children who have received pre-primary school education is considerably higher than that of children who did not. In addition the children in the former category adapt more readily and smoothly to primary school than those in the latter.

The introduction of pre-primary classes, however, has stagnated owing to a lack of funds. The formula by means of which money is allocated to education makes no provision for the pre-primary child. The funds that have in fact been appropriated by the department for pre-primary education, an amount of R9,4 million, have been obtained by means of compulsory savings in other areas of education. It is therefore clear that pre-primary education can only be purposefully promoted if funds for this purpose are specially generated.

The department is nevertheless determined to examine ways and means of trying to satisfy this need in the community. Consequently the development of pre-primary education remains part of the department’s policy for the future, particularly because the department is convinced that this important and essential bridging period has such a great ripple effect that it can even in fact be related to examination results at matriculation level.

The question of greater parental involvement in education is becoming a topical issue. One of the positive aspects of so-called people’s education is insistence on greater involvement of parents and children in education. My department and I are convinced that while education and the parent each have a sphere in which they can work as partners in the interests of education, there are at the same time spheres and opportunities in which joint action in the interests of the child is indispensable.

Co-operation between parent and teacher must always be kept in careful equilibrium. To ensure this it is important that the parent should understand the extent of the teaching activities. Because education laws to a large extent determine the spirit, character and course of education, it is important that parents should have a say in respect of proposed education laws via the channels or structures established for that purpose.

The parent ought to have a say in policy-making, organising, financing, personnel administration, the determination of procedures, education control, homework, school uniforms, discipline and sporting and cultural activities. Particularly in the latter case we find that we have too much of a say from outside the school, but not enough by the parents.

The parent together with the teacher must ensure that education objectives, the learning material that has to be explored, the teaching, learning and examination methods from the legislation stage to teachers’ administration and the tuition itself, should be adhered to and correctly applied. This matter occupies a high priority position in the future policy of the department. In particular consideration is being given to the parental role mechanisms to ensure their participation, and also that they honour their obligations.

Mr Speaker, earlier in my speech I touched upon the problem that is being experienced in the rural areas as far as suitably qualified teachers are concerned.

I am thoroughly aware of the manifold reasons why teachers, including some born in the rural areas, do not see their way clear to practising their calling in the rural areas. On the other hand the department dare not allow the child, wherever he may find himself, to be deprived of effective education.

In the nature of the case the Department of Education has an obligation to the child and it is strictly speaking for that reason that it is training teachers to satisfy the education needs of the child.

Taking into consideration all the circumstances that are relevant to this dilemma, the department feels itself compelled to give positive attention to this matter with the object of solving the problem in such a way that no one is unfairly prejudiced in the process. It is general practice on the part of some education departments to place teachers according to specific needs or to couple specific conditions to bursary agreements or contracts.

In view of the real danger of an oversupply of primary teachers the time may arrive, sooner than has been anticipated, when my department will also be forced to adopt such a course, but the department is of the opinion that efficiency is not limited to professional and academic qualifications. There are other factors too, such as suitable accommodation, to mention only one that is important. What may probably be of the greatest importance in such a development is that teachers who accept posts in the rural areas should be motivated, apart from their task as educators in the classroom, to make a material contribution to the upliftment of the community by means of education.

†The rise of people’s education is directly linked to the education crisis. The catalyst for the idea of developing a people’s education was the most recent manifestation of the education crisis, the 1985 school boycotts.

Although efforts to induce change in educational practice tend to be undertaken as expedient and opportunistic responses to the dominant sociopolitical forces rather than stemming from a rationale based on sound theory and conceptual research, some researchers believe that people’s education represents a shift from reactive responses to a more serious questioning of the nature of education itself. Students, teachers and parents began to question what a different alternative educational system would be like concerning its underlying principles, method and content etc. People’s education would thus aim to enable people to develop a viable educational alternative.

The original definition of people’s education began with a complete rejection of the apartheid education ideology, structures and method. The proponents of people’s education believe that no education can ever be neutral since education is held to have a definite political purpose.

The call for people’s education for people’s power is in essence a call for an education system which will enable people to have control over their own lives—a call therefore for an education system which will lead to liberation.

One of the primary aims of people’s education is, therefore, that it should enable the oppressed to understand the evils of the apartheid system and—I wish to underline this—to prepare them for participation in a non-racial democratic society. [Interjections.] This is its major political purpose which was spelt out in greater detail by father Smangaliso Mkhathswa in his statement that “the call is now for education for liberation, justice and freedom”. [Interjections.]

In the light of the “education for liberation” movement, it is accurate to report that there are powerful forces both in and out of education which compel those in the field to create innovation and reform.

In the first place action for change was directed primarily towards improving and expanding that which already existed. Today, however, the education scene is changing so rapidly that no man can predict with certainty what the school of 1998 will be like. We believe we know what direction the change is likely to take and we can identify many of its ingredients. Social crisis does, however, abound in the country and schools are the focal institutions of critical concern.

One aspect of the proposed change in the educative process is seen in the activity to broaden the base of educational decision-making. Another major theme which is now developing is the movement on the part of students towards greater involvement in determining the meaningful, relevant aspects of both the content and the educative process of school.

My department has taken cognizance of the stirrings which are taking place on the South African scene today. During my budget speech on 27 April last year I deemed it necessary to touch on the proposed alternative structures regarding education when I stated the following:

However, we do believe that education needs a philosophy to guide its ends and means. We also believe that any change to a curriculum begins with a mandate for seeking answers to certain fundamental questions such as: What educational purposes should a school seek to attain; what educational experiences can be provided; how can these educational experiences be effectively organised; and how can we determine whether these purposes are being attained?

In times of crisis the school is invariably put in the position of being held responsible both for the crisis itself and for finding a solution. My department has received the criticism that our syllabuses are not relevant any more. Be assured that we are fully aware of the shortcomings thereof and that we are committed to remedy the situation. However, we maintain that those who are best qualified for an input in the situation, those who are in the teaching fraternity, must not withdraw themselves from the committees which determine syllabuses. They should rather participate actively.

My department has one serious problem in this respect and that is teacher indifference or lack of teacher involvement. Teacher involvement in curriculum development all over the world is an irrevocable fact of life. The classroom is a fertile field for theory development. Teacher concern should therefore be the starting point for the solution of curriculum problems.

Mr Chairman, it is my responsibility and that of my department, as well as the responsibility of the educator, to prepare those who have been entrusted in our care for a tomorrow. It is a tomorrow which is an unknown tomorrow to all of us.

We are embarking on exciting and challenging times as far as education is concerned. In conclusion I therefore wish to appeal to all scholars, students, parents and the organised teaching profession. Achievement of success in the education process is not the task of any one man, nor is it the task of any one group. At this stage in the history of our education we appeal for a united front where teachers complement the hopes and aspirations of parents, and children realise the hopes of parents.

It is urgently necessary for my appeal to be heard by the organised teaching corps who are capable of so much good in the leadership role so that the ministry may have well-informed advice—the kind which teachers are competent to give. My appeal must be heard by parents and parent organisations whose constructive ambitions for the achievement of their children my ministry is eager to address. My appeal must be heard by scholars and students eager to equip themselves adequately for the employment opportunities of the future. The old adage remains true: United we stand, divided we fall.

Let us therefore join hands and join our forces to face the challenges together. Come forward and let us together make this beautiful country a better one to live in, not for ourselves, but for our children and their children and their children’s children.

Mr Speaker, the Official Opposition will vote in favour of the Education Vote. Whatever our criticism may be of the shortcomings of education in the Coloured community, we dare not reject one cent of the amount allocated, which in any case falls far short of our needs. As far as the majority party in this House is concerned, they should logically oppose this budget on principle because it is, in their view, an apartheid system of education which this budget is funding. This apartheid system of education they say they oppose. The reason I say that they should oppose this budget on principle is that just yesterday the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council had his party oppose the Budget Vote on Constitutional Development and Planning on the grounds that there had been no meaningful change constitutionally and that the hon the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning was in fact perpetuating apartheid. However, the spectacle that we witnessed yesterday had nothing to do with principle. Every year for the past four years the LP has approved all the money Bills, including the Vote on Constitutional Development and Planning. The reason is plain to see, because had they voted against them during the past four years this House would have been dissolved and sent out to fight an election long ago, or the Ministers’ Council might have been reconstituted long ago. [Interjections.] It is not too late for the hon the State President to do either, and we may yet find this House fighting an election sooner than 6 September.

For four years the LP leadership pretended to support the Constitutional Development and Planning Vote to avoid an election, which of course would have led to a revolt within their ranks. [Interjections.] Now that they believe an election is unavoidable, we see the party putting up a show of what they fondly believe is principled opposition to a money Bill. What a farce! Who do they think they are impressing? It is blatant hypocrisy and crude opportunism. Principle has given way to blatant expediency. It is an electioneering stunt that may yet boomerang badly on the LP.

With regard to the satisfactory level of stability in our schools today, as compared to the situation three or four years ago, I want to say the following: Had I as the then Minister of Education and Culture not taken the firm measures that I did to maintain order in our schools, there would have been chaos today. [Interjections.] However, people forget that those measures were fully approved of by the whole Ministers’ Council, including of course the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council himself. [Interjections.] Now what were those measures? Firstly and most importantly that year-end examinations be written. Secondly, a number of high schools were closed for about three weeks. The interests of the overwhelming majority of students and pupils were served by those measures, because they wanted to write examinations and when the disruption squads from high schools threatened to carry their violence over to the primary schools, they had to be stopped. This was achieved by closure of their high schools. Against this background of facts of the matter I was therefore shocked when the hon the Leader of the House and now also the hon the Deputy Minister of the Budget brought a toy Casspir into the House in an attempt to cast a slur on my good name. At first I thought that that hon Deputy Minister was entering his second childhood by bringing his toys to Parliament. However, his real purpose was to identify me with police action during the unrest in our schools.

Neither I nor even the Ministers’ Council had any control over police action, particularly during the state of emergency that existed then, as it still does. All I could do—and I did so—was to direct an appeal to the Police, which was published in the Press, to act with restraint, and also to parents and teachers to control their children by keeping them off the streets for the sake of their own safety. [Interjections.]

It was therefore a reprehensible act on the part of the hon the Deputy Minister to try to smear me by accusing me in his rather theatrical way of being responsible for police action against our schools. If it did not hold such dangerous implications for me personally, I would have dismissed that childish little performance of his with the contempt it deserved, but the record will only be put straight if everybody will jog his memory and remind himself of the truth about that period. It was not Carter Ebrahim who was the cause of police action at our schools at that time, but Dr Allan Boesak, who sparked off the school unrest with his infamous call to our youth: “First liberation, then education!” [Interjections.]

Hundreds of children heeded his call and took to the streets with stones and road blocks of burning tyres. Of course this immediately led to police action. People must blame the real culprits and not me for that unhappy period.

The hon the Deputy Minister must remember that he himself is now in a position of responsibility. I hope he will think about what I have said, because he too will be called upon to make decisions. I do not know for how long that will be the case, because the coming elections may mercifully end his career pretty soon. [Interjections.]

Then there is the matter of the persistent remarks made by the hon member Mr Lockey with regard to my alleged request to the hon the State President for an ambassadorship after my resignation as Minister of Education and Culture. I want to tell that hon member that such an offer was made to me, and the bearer of that message was none other than that hon member’s hon father-in-law, and not once, but at least three times. [Interjections.] I refused the offer, for the hon member Mr Lockey’s information, on the grounds that I had started on the task of the education of our children, and I wanted to complete it. [Interjections.]

Then there was the rather low attempt to squeeze something fishy out of my visit to Israel. I was surprised when the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council himself, by way of interjection, tried to do so. This was followed by a similar attempt by the hon member for Bokkeveld. He obviously was instructed to do so by his higher-ups, because he was not even around when I went to and came back from Israel.

Mr Speaker, on a point of order: That hon member is implying that I cannot think for myself.

Order! That is no point of order. The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition may proceed.

The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council approved of my visit to Israel. He recommended that the hon the State President also should give me the green light, without which I would not have been able to go. The whole trip was organised by the Department of Foreign Affairs, and it was solely for educational purposes. I saw and learnt there the paramount importance of technical education and the correct use of the computer in education, particularly as an aid in teaching mathematics and science in the primary school.

If it were not for the inordinate delay caused by proven corruption in another education department, the introduction and use of the computer in our schools would have progressed much further than the situation is in our schools today.

I am therefore totally mystified by the references to my visit to Israel, except to conclude that some people deliberately wanted to link me with corruption of some kind. They have failed, of course.

Talking about computers in education, the hon member for Bokkeveld drew attention in a speech in another Chamber to the use of the Commodore personal computer in certain of our schools. He correctly criticised the use of this model because it was never designed to be used as an educational tool at all. I myself objected strongly in my time as Minister to the rather extravagant expenditure on the Commodore at the instance of a senior official in the Department of Education. I believed then, as I still do now, that that matter of Commodore purchases needs to be investigated thoroughly.

What about my replacement as Minister of Education? The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council performs that function now. His record thus far has not been an enviable one. His brief tenure has been marked by a running fight with the teacher corps. He even held the threat of retrenchment over their heads. I listened very carefully. He has never repudiated that before, this is the first time. The hon the Minister said that approximately 2 000 posts would possibly have to go for lack of funds. At the moment there is a lull in the hostility between the hon the Minister and the teachers, and possibly a truce has been arrived at during recent meetings with them. However, it will be interesting to hear what the teachers will have to say at their next mid-year conference.

The most glaring weakness in the hon the Minister’s handling of his portfolio is his total failure to come forward with a policy and a plan for educational growth and progress for the future. South Africa is rapidly moving towards the 21st century. [Interjections.] That is something the hon member did not know. It is going to be the century of high and total technology. What is the hon the Minister doing about gearing our educational system to equip our youth to meet the awesome challenges of the new future? He should not come up with the hackneyed story of blaming apartheid. The vestiges of apartheid must be addressed at a political level. Our children cannot wait for the day of full equality to dawn; they want the best that we can give them now. [Interjections.] The best does not only lie in more schools and better trained teachers—important as they are—but also in an entirely new approach to education in South Africa. Has the hon the Minister given thought to the direction education must take if our country is to break through into the company of the rapidly advancing industrial nations of the East? If he has not, the community he serves is going to enter a new period of deprivation of knowledge and skills, that will leave them far behind in the race to achieve prosperity to which this community and the whole of the nation is entitled—and they are entitled to the best that the world can offer.

The hon the Minister’s approach to problem-solving—whether in education or anywhere else—is well-known. It is marked by head-bumping, confrontation and conflict. He has made no bones about that and has said as much on several occasions. He has not hesitated to use the sensitive issue of our children’s education as a tool in his eagerness to achieve immediate political gains, which have been proved in the main to be short-sighted and unproductive. Indeed, the hon the Minister’s methods will result in halting progress entirely if allowed to continue. There can be no substitute, I say again, for negotiation—and I mean real negotiation, not ultimatums—to achieve results in the South Africa of today. If the present hon Minister of Education and Culture refuses to use negotiation—a method that approximately 90% of South Africa’s people support as the only acceptable means of bringing about change—then he must face the real possibility that the voting public will remove him. [Interjections.] The hon member must please take note that the voters decide these matters and no amount of empty boasting will change that fact. [Interjections.]

To turn to the culture and sport components of this budget, I want to say I noticed that the new hon Deputy Minister of Education and Culture is on public record as rejecting the concept of “a Coloured culture”. Few, if any, of us here will quarrel with that viewpoint, but to offer to encourage cultural activities in the community is not enough, as he also stated. Our children will never reach world standards if they are left to their own devices. They need training in cultural arts if they are ever to achieve excellence in their chosen fields and as far as their talents will allow.

It is for this reason that I initiated in my time a project which would co-ordinate all the commendable efforts by performing arts teachers, in music, dance and drama, etc, concentrating them in one institution of training such as a performing arts school. In this school the cream of the community’s youthful talents could be gathered from all corners of the country and be given the best in training and facilities. Hostel facilities would also be provided. The question is how far we have gotten with this project. Is it still envisioned as an absolute necessity, or is it not one of the priorities of the present incumbent of this portfolio?

As far as sport is concerned, there is an extremely serious issue that has dogged this aspect of the portfolio under discussion. During my term of office I took steps to see that our school sport was freed from the negative grip and control of Sacos. A well-qualified person in the field of sport administration, Mr Trevor Lee, was appointed to a post newly created to advance sport at school level. From reports I received, both formally and from interested persons, excellent progress was being made and the grip of Sacos was slowly but surely being prised loose. [Interjections.] Suddenly, and without an explanation that was acceptable, Mr Lee was relieved of his post vis-à-vis sport and had to return to his previous post. [Interjections.]

Order!

Was he guilty of hopeless incompetence? We were never told. Was he guilty of misconduct? We were never told. I am at a total loss to explain the unfortunate termination of Mr Lee’s services regarding school sport. I can only guess at a reason. Was it a personal one? Did Sacos begin to fear the successful efforts of Mr Lee to loosen their grip and therefore bring pressure to bear on the hon the Minister? Who knows? What relationship, if any, apparently exists between the hon the Minister and individuals or an individual in Sacos that could have led to Mr Lee’s removal? Perhaps we will never know the real reason. Nevertheless, the problem of outside interference in our school sport is still a problem. It will never reach levels of excellence, which should be the right of our children, if the situation is allowed to continue into the future. It is clear that this portfolio needs an entirely new political head if we are to break out of the doldrums in sport, in culture and in education in general in our schools.

Mr Speaker, I do not want to say much in reaction to the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition. I am sure the hon the Minister is well able to deal with him.

I merely want to refer to a few of the things he stated. According to his argument, the dispute with the CPTA began when the hon the Minister of Education and Culture assumed his position. This struggle did not start in the time of the hon the Minister. It is a struggle that started long before that.

Mr Speaker, on a point of order: I did not say that it was since the hon the Minister had assumed his position that these disputes between the two…

Order! That is not a point of order. The hon member may proceed.

The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition should really have used his discretion after hearing the announcements made by the hon the Minister with regard to youth campaigns and poor teaching qualifications. The hon the Leader of the Official Opposition used his time to attack the hon the Minister in that regard. I want to say, however, that if he was sufficiently competent, he would have listened carefully and cut that section from his speech. It is clear from what I heard that remarkable progress has been made in this connection.

I was really looking forward to the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition’s spelling out his policy to us. He should have told us how he would improve the education policy. [Interjections.] No, Sir, that was not done sufficiently.

This immediately brings me to my prepared speech. The last own affairs debate on education before the election takes place today, and perhaps it would be a good thing for me to use a few points to illustrate the progress that has been made. For the first time Coloured political leaders have had an opportunity during the past five years to lead education into a new era in this country. The era we are in today cannot be reversed. It is an era…

We are working in a certain direction.

It is an era in which we can really pat ourselves on the back and say we are working in a certain direction. We have achieved a great deal that we can be proud of. I am not saying that our task is complete, however. There are still problems that have to be addressed. We still have an enormous incomplete task on our hands, and undoubtedly we shall have to devote attention to this in future.

To organised education, as well as to the individual pedagogue, our rule and the new era which education is moving into must have initiated a stage of complete adaptation. Although renewal is always accompanied by the pains of acceptance, successes have been achieved in this connection. Those who wanted to prove that the LP was a junior partner of the NP miscalculated badly. The LP can and will never be a partner in an abominable apartheid policy. We have proved that. Hon members who still want to believe the contrary are in conflict with reality and are living in a vacuum of cynicism.

Education belongs to our community and we must protect their right to it. The LP has a comprehensive democratic task of protecting that right. That is why we are striving for a uniform education system. That is why we cannot permit education to be used as a weapon against the Government.

The LP as the ruling party has declared itself willing to implement alternative education by indicating to organised education that we are prepared to accept alternative education as part of our education system. Organised education must make use of this opportunity. The LP has adopted a strong standpoint on the question of a single education policy with regard to open schools. The LP has adopted the policy of declaring its schools open. Is that not remarkable progress!

Although, therefore, we have not made progress with regard to the content of people’s education, we have succeeded in getting people’s education off the ground by means of gestures, such as our willingness to accept open schools. We welcome research on the part of organised education about the history and policy propagated in respect of people’s education. History at our schools is lacking in balanced content. Research in this connection must be continued and also intensified so that we can provide proof for every historic fact. The yearning for the introduction of alternative education must be satisfied, because it is irrefutable. Other population groups, and in this connection I am referring specifically to the White group in the country, must be persuaded that it gives acceptable content to a system. It must not come to the surface as a mere slogan. If people’s education is credible enough only to be introduced in schools for people of colour, we are not succeeding in our purpose, but are encouraging separate education.

We must remember that a single system of education must be the same—also with regard to content. Consequently the content of people’s education must be gauged according to the acceptance it enjoys among the entire spectrum of the community. People’s education must not be introduced if it is earmarked to incite potential friction and fears. It is a sensitive matter which must not be approached in an emotional, impatient or malicious way.

The hon the Minister’s policy on super-schools has also received considerable criticism from the CPTA recently. I know, and hon members know, that the CPTA does not really have any reason for adopting such a standpoint with regard to the hon the Minister’s policy in connection with super-schools.

For so many years the community as well as the teachers and pupils have been calling for better teaching facilities. Our schools had too much of a “location” appearance which detracted considerably from the status of the school and education in the community. The impression our schools made was often worse than that of prisons. Surely we cannot be criticised for trying to do something about that.

Another matter that I am very worried about is the discipline in our schools. The pupils are much bolder in ignoring the discipline of teachers in schools. I have a great deal of sympathy with teachers in this connection. There are teachers who contribute to this disorder, however. Many of them are in the forefront when leaders are crucified and denigrated in the community. Once a child has learnt what it is to treat adults and leaders with contempt, this is immediately reflected in his attitude toward all his superiors. What we need is a more interwoven leadership campaign so that the whole community can play a part in disciplining the child. We may not fail to discipline our children. Neither parents, nor teachers, nor clergymen nor the leaders in the political sphere may neglect to do so.

Since leadership and discipline are so closely related, in my opinion we should give greater recognition to our leaders in our community. There is an illusion that when a new school is built, it must be named after a mountain or a river. The leaders in our community do not get the necessary recognition, and that impoverishes our history. Only if we acknowledge our leaders, will we be able to enrich our future history.

It is not right for inspectors to command schools to spare the rod. That is not the spirit of the department’s regulations. If it is, I want to say we are making a very big mistake. Even a monkey is intelligent enough to know that he must punish his little one in that way. Corporal punishment must not be dismissed as being a primitive form of punishment. It was administered to me; I had a strict mother and father and strict teachers, and that influenced the formation of my character. [Interjections.] The punishment must merely be administered in the correct way. That is what principals and inspectors must keep an eye on.

I also want to request the establishment of school committees at all schools, also on farms. We shall have to involve the parents more closely in the management of schools in future, because that is one of the very important ways of making education more acceptable in the community and also of weaving the line of discipline through the community as a whole.

If we want to succeed in encouraging parent involvement, and in linking their discipline to the school, we must drastically reduce the powers of managers. I am not saying that they must disappear, but we must reduce their powers drastically.

School psychologists will also have to be utilised to a greater extent in order to rehabilitate pupils who display deviate conduct.

In addition I am deeply concerned about the trend among our young people to make career choices and then to use them as a last resort. An important factor that plays a part here is the fact that numerous subject packages are not presented in the rural areas. Once again this can be ascribed to the lack of suitable teachers in the rural areas. It remains a vicious circle, from which we shall have to release the rural areas, because we shall really never be able to meet the demand if we do not start presenting the packages.

There is another deficiency that bothers me. Temporary posts at schools are not always filled by the best possible candidates. These matters are left in the hands of headmasters who do not always handle them in the best way. We must make comprehensive waiting lists of qualified teachers available for the use of headmasters at regional offices. They must then be compelled to use such lists when temporary posts are filled. The use of unqualified teachers and retired teachers, who sometimes sit sleeping in front of a class, is not desirable. I come from a school where we had a retired teacher. She used to sit sleeping in front of the children. They would then run around outside as they pleased. I want to tell hon members that this does our education endless damage.

Sport and culture are among the most important factors by means of which a healthy living pattern is created. So far, however, the question of culture in the Coloured community has been presented as one of the matters in our community that causes the greatest friction. It is sad to hear that there are still principals who prevent children from taking part in a ballet performance like the one the department arranged for us recently. It is a great pity! Where are we leading our young people? Are we leading them to cultural bankruptcy? We have a duty. We have a duty in that connection and we must give them a chance.

This question of friction cannot be blamed only on our community leaders, however. It is a matter that has unfolded in this way over the years. It was a question of divide and rule. That is the spirit in which culture was presented. I want to tell hon members that we must reach a point at which we begin to link our cultural activities to performance, so that our children can reach the top of the ladder in all respects. I wonder, for example, where our film stars are.

Here I am! [Interjections.]

Where are our actors? Where are our achievers in the sphere of sport? At Sacos they run until they get a blazer, and that is the end of it. Sport and culture definitely die immediately after school. Once a child has completed his school career, that is the end of culture. Culture has a much more important part to play than that, however. A negative connotation is attached to the word “culture” these days, which makes it look as if culture will survive only if it relies on differences, reservations and fears. Culture is the individual and culture is the broad community. If we do not foster it, we shall have nothing to leave to posterity.

On the one hand Coloured people refuse to use White facilities that are made available. On the other, however, we complain about the duplication of such facilities. Sports facilities are among the most expensive items in a community, and it hurts to see how such expensive facilities are duplicated as a result of policy. This is not policy only on the part of the Whites, but also on the part of our Coloured sport administrators. [Interjections.] One wonders whether we can afford this. Are certain sports bodies, with their numerous provisos, not encouraging the process of apartheid? Are they not advancing apartheid with the old provisos that one thing must happen before they appear on television and another before they permit photographs of themselves to appear in an apartheid newspaper? This merely diminishes us. We must be released from that void—the sooner the better.

Mr Speaker, I have been sitting in this House for almost five years now, and I regret having to ask for your protection this afternoon. [Interjections.] I am going to do something today that you may not agree with. I am fed up with this House that I am sitting in. When I was a member of the LP, I often complained to the caucus about the discomfort I had to suffer as a Christian. I am fed up with having to go through this in this House. I want to ask the Government whether we cannot sit in the mornings before the bottle stores open. I simply can no longer…

Order! The hon member cannot carry on with those implications. The hon member may proceed with his speech.

Mr Speaker, I withdraw it, but I want to object, because I can no longer sit here breathing in this smell. I want the Chair to take cognisance of that, because my speech is being wrecked this afternoon because my head and stomach are aching. [Interjections.] I really cannot stand it any more. I want the public to take cognisance of what I am saying this afternoon, because I really cannot stand it any more. My head is aching and I do not know whether I can continue my speech. [Interjections.] I came here to work…

Mr Speaker, on a point of order: The hon member is incriminating a number of our hon members. I think he is out of order. [Interjections.]

Order! I am listening carefully to the hon member’s speech and hon members can leave things in my hands. I shall listen to what this hon member is talking about and I shall determine how far he may go in doing so. The hon member may proceed.

Mr Speaker, the hon members need not ask. They can merely look at where I am sitting, and then they will know whom I am talking about. [Interjections.] And this is not the first time. [Interjections.] I am pleased that I am being given an opportunity to say something here this afternoon, but I am extremely flustered.

I have with me a newspaper cutting that I have been saving specially. While I was listening to the other hon speakers who spoke before me this afternoon, it gained great value for me. An article in Die Burger of Friday, 17 October 1986, mentions the Calvinist Protestant Church which said: “Bevryding kom nie sonder opvoeding nie.” I do not have the time to read any more of it, but I do want to talk about that this afternoon.

What those churchmen say is true, viz that education comes before liberation. They have every reason to say that, because our children are going to rack and ruin as a result of teachers who intimidate our children and lead them to do all kinds of things that do not belong in the schools. Our classrooms are used as printing rooms to issue pamphlets to encourage the children to boycott. Work goes on until 12 o’clock at night at some schools, and I want the hon the Minister to take cognisance of that, because there are security guards who came to me to complain. They called in one of their supervisors and then these people disappeared from the school. One must take cognisance of this, because this is where the teachers are not doing their work and are permitting such people to intimidate our children at night.

I want to talk to the parents of the Coloured community of South Africa today. I cannot stand the fact that our children are boycotting, and that only a few children are left in the schools—children of parents who are strict with regard to their children’s education. When the parents make inquiries, they say they do not know what is going on, but if the children loaf about because they are not qualified and cannot find jobs, the parents complain to us. I know of a certain schoolboy who is a grown-up man today. He went to school, he boycotted, he threw stones—I was a victim myself—and now he tells me that October is the last month in which I shall be able to bribe all the old people.

My God works in wonderful ways, however. That person cannot find a job anywhere. [Interjections.] He has to come to me to ask whether there is a job for him at the municipality.

This is the fault of that child’s parents. If all parents took their children to school and told the teachers that they were being paid with their taxes and that they should teach their children, the schools would be full.

I came to know Dr Boesak just after he had left school. We were good friends, but our paths diverged, because I cannot condone his boycotting. Strangely enough Mr Sonn is also a great friend of mine. Often when we have a fête, he comes to open it. But these people never boycotted. They went to school and received a gutter education that was far worse than what we have today, and they qualified. [Interjections.] But to be sure, Dr Boesak waited until he had completed his education, and Mr Sonn and Archbishop Tutu waited until they had completed their gutter education, which was worse than what we have today, before they came to tell our children to boycott.

I do not mind if hon members do not like me when I talk in this way. I shall not allow the LP to push me into a mould, much less some of the other parties who are sitting here. I say what I say in all frankness. Before we, our party to which I belonged, came to this House, we came to work, right or wrong. We worked for our people. There can be no doubt about that. I am not buying favour by saying that. I know what I am talking about, because I fought with them and I fought with these hon members. [Interjections.] We are opposition today, and now we come and denigrate one another here. I do not denigrate anyone.

Do not be afraid.

No, without being afraid. I am not a coward. [Interjections].

We came here and we worked. One can see what work we did. If what the hon the Minister read here this afternoon is true—he cannot read an untruth—I want to say that this is something that has been achieved by all of us in this House. [Interjections.]

The LP must forget about telling the people in my constituency that Oom Hansie did not cooperate with them. They must forget about that. [Interjections.] What they have achieved, I have achieved too and I am still doing so. [Interjections.]

Yes, they are welcome to put up a candidate there. [Interjections.] I am not afraid of anyone, because I worked there. [Interjections.] The hon member for Matroosfontein must be careful what he says. He must do his work properly and leave the small organisations in his bank account alone. [Interjections.] Before we came to Parliament, our education was linked mainly to White education. At that stage the CP did not have as many problems, because they could control. In Ekstra Rapport of 26 February 1989 there is a headline that reads: “KP-hoof wil hof toe”. [Interjections.] I want to tell the hon member for Matroosfontein that I am competent to do my work. It is their fault that I am shaking so this afternoon. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member may proceed.

On 26 February the same CP head who wanted to go to court with the LP came in through the back door once again and spoke to the Ministers. That is what I have come to expect of them. Outside the House they say they have never spoken to the Ministers. That is what I have come to expect of them. At a meeting in my constituency one night, the school’s principal ran to the Ministers. Subsequently he held a public meeting with the parents and said he had never been there. That is not true, but this is what happens. The schools in my constituency are in serious need of attention. If those schools collapse, they are going to collapse on our children. [Time expired.]

Mr Speaker, thank you very much for the opportunity to participate in this historic debate. It is historic in that things that have been very important to us for many years—the lack of vocational education and technical training—are now receiving attention, as the hon the Minister explained here. I want to congratulate him on the degree of success he has attained in changing our education into vocational and technical education. [Interjections.] How often we as former teachers and former headmasters were at our wits’ end when matric pupils came back to school with their matric certificates in January and we had to ask whether they had not gone to college or university or to seek work. The answer was simply: “No, Sir, I cannot find work.” All their subjects were academic ones. It is not that we are against academic education. However, there is a need in our community for practical training and practical subjects. Consequently I am exceptionally pleased about the latest news given to us by the hon the Minister today. I want to congratulate him on that. [Interjections.]

I want to place the emphasis on universities, but from a somewhat different perspective. We have often criticised the University of the Western Cape, but as the hon the Minister said, the rector is prepared to visit his office these days and to have discussions with him. We welcome that. There is such a thing as academic freedom at universities. That is just as important to them as a bill of human rights is to lawyers. We may not dictate when it comes to academic freedom and UWC rightly feel they have every say in the way in which they prepare and present their courses. They have one dominant motto, viz “The university must be free to decide who shall teach and who shall be taught.” We in this House support that.

There is a tremendous backlog in accommodation at UWC as well as at UCT. The University of Cape Town is fortunate, however, to be able to obtain other accommodation; they can rent, buy or erect buildings, hostels and houses in the Coloured and Black areas. In this way they can accommodate the students. They can provide their students with transport by means of which they can travel between these Black and Coloured residential areas and the University of Cape Town. I contend, however, that the University of the Western Cape cannot afford that. Students at UWC have to squat in their friends’ rooms. They have to sleep on blankets; some of them are fortunate if they have mattresses to sleep on.

Then there is the question of the food tickets. A student who is living in a hostel legally gets a certain number of food tickets. As a result of the fact that his friends are squatting in his room, however, his food tickets have to supply not only him, but also his friends, with food. Consequently a food ticket actually has to feed twice the number of people it was intended for.

I believe that the hon the Minister’s sympathetic attitude in respect of UWC is of cardinal importance. The University of Fort Hare was also backward, but it woke the sleeping giant of Africa. Magnificent progress was made because of the leaders this university trained. The same is true of UWC. I never boycotted this university; I never waved little flags around to boycott it, because I believed it had a significant part to play. Even today we can see the leadership displayed by some of UWC’s former students.

We know that UWC is visited by numerous visitors from abroad. For that reason I think we should support this university as far as possible. That is why I am pleased about the support the hon the Minister gives the students in the shape of funding, bursaries and loans.

It would be unethical of us to say how a university should manage its affairs. Unfortunately there are incidents that we do not endorse, but in general a university should have the authority to control its own affairs.

The subsidy the university receives used to cover 82% of its expenditure. Today, however, it covers only 49% of its total expenditure. The reason is obvious. The main reason is that the subsidy is based on South African conditions. Many of the candidates who are enrolled there, for example, are not suitable for tertiary education. That is not the university’s fault. The blame can be laid elsewhere, in that some of the students who are enrolled are lacking when it comes to a first language. They have a poor scholastic background. Another reason is that they have economic problems.

†Once the bug of learning has bitten you, it is impossible to stop that craving.

*Although these students are in no position to take care of themselves economically or to enjoy the care of their parents, they endeavour to get on in life by receiving training at a university.

What do the examination results reflect in these circumstances? The subsidy formula is based on performance, pass rates and success. If they are not successful, the subsidy formula drops and is reduced by half. That is why the subsidy to the University of the Western Cape was cut so drastically. I am pleased that the hon the Minister has sympathy with Prof Jakes Gerwel’s problem and that wherever possible, he will assist him in this regard.

I now want to come to colleges. I am upset that the Paarl Teachers’ Training College was given to the Security Services instead of to our department. I am dissatisfied, because that college is equipped for training purposes. The facilities are there and I do not think the Police or the Defence Force need a teachers’ training college. Perhaps they need a college for other purposes.

In our own ranks, at our own colleges, there are numerous White teachers and lecturers who do good work. They are at home in our milieu and they feel at home with our students. I cannot see why the Paarl college could not be transferred to this department. Our college staff are hampered in their work in that they have to teach advanced education in unsuitable and ineffective buildings. That is one of the things that led the hon the Minister to decide that our students in the Zonnebloem College should be transferred to the college at Kuils River for their own sakes. That college has facilities for advanced education, and students who are involved in advanced studies require and need the best available facilities. One thinks, for example, of a demonstration room in which a student teacher has to give practice lessons. He should be able to proceed with his lesson undisturbed. His pupils should be able to listen to him undisturbed. The observers should sit out of sight behind a oneway window from where they can make their observations.

Audio-visual screens ensure that the student teacher and his pupils can utilise the situation to its optimum. I believe that we are in need of modern training facilities in our colleges. Our students deserve the best, and consequently I think the hon the Minister made the correct decision, viz that our advanced teaching students should be transferred to a training centre such as the Kuils River College, with its reading rooms, libraries, hostels, etc. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, when it comes to educational matters, like one of old I can proudly say today that we can raise our Ebenezers and say that hitherto hath the Lord led us. I want to thank and compliment the hon the Minister of Education and Culture for this most informative booklet which was distributed among us today. It concerns the activities of his Ministry and his department with regard to educational matters in this country.

If I look at some of the issues raised by the hon the Minister, I can say that despite the shortcomings, disparities, backlogs, differences and the long and difficult road that still lies ahead of us, education has never been in better hands since this hon Minister, the leader of my party, has taken over this most important portfolio. [Interjections.]

I reject the call of an hon member earlier today when he repeated a slogan: “The best now for our children”. I say the best now is not possible, but under the most trying circumstances we have achieved the best possible for our children to date. [Interjections.]

Therefore the hon the Minister and his departmental officials and all those who work under him must accept the gratitude and compliments of hon members in this Chamber for the manner in which they have been carrying out this most difficult task of providing education for so-called people of colour in this country.

In rising in support of this Vote, I can start off by saying that experience is the best teacher. I spent the best part of my life in education as a scholar, student, teacher, specialist teacher and vice-principal, which covered over 23 years. Therefore I can speak with the necessary background and with conviction about some of the difficulties experienced, especially on the Cape Flats. I have experienced them personally.

I became a member of the standing committee in 1984 and for three and a half years I was one of the chief spokesmen on education in this House. In my experience over the years and in my travels up and down the country I came face to face with reality in education. Far too many people, especially outside this Chamber, who criticise certain aspects of education have not even bothered to visit any educational institutions. The disparity and inequalities, I have already conceded, remain as enormous as ever in certain places when one compares the facilities provided for Whites to those provided to other ethnic groups. That cannot be wished away, but they can and I believe they will be worked away in a matter of time.

Over the years—and history clearly recorded this—the White Government saw to the provision of adequate education for Whites. The education of our people was left in the hands of churches and missionary societies. This started long before 1948 and the NP take-over. The Nats did not invent apartheid; they only perfected it. If you believe, as some people do, that apartheid and discrimination only exist within our borders, I say to you go and look outside of our country. You will experience that apartheid and discrimination towards people of colour is alive and well outside of our country as well.

Today, after five years of hard, fact-finding debating and participation in this Parliament, I have come to certain conclusions. For the first time in our history, due to our personal involvement at top level, every effort is being made with the means at our disposal—and we very much regret that our hon Minister and his department have a shortfall of R250 million to work with—to upgrade all facets of education for our children. Here again I must say that the leadership in this portfolio is of a high calibre. With the dedication, conviction and leadership of this hon Minister I believe we are going to achieve the parity and equality that we have wished for for so long.

Let us be very honest, however. The vast backlogs which do exist in facilities and other things and which have piled up over many decades cannot be eliminated overnight.

That is why I said it is not possible now. It is a dream. “The best now” is a slogan. I believe the best is coming. The best is in the making. With a Minister, a department and officials such as ours in charge, it is in the pipeline. Even if we had billions of rands in foreign aid poured into our coffers tomorrow, the harm which has already been done cannot be eliminated. The present and the past generation have already been afflicted by the poor standards provided over the years. However, I do believe it is for the next generation that we must now provide. In the final analysis education will be our passport to equality and parity.

I recently had lunch with Dr James Luther Berel, the well-known American civil rights leader. He was sad about the community-destroying increase of immorality, drug abuse, prostitution, mugging and gambling which is taking place in his country today despite the great education facilities provided to all his countrymen. We stood on the top storey of the Cape Sun Hotel and looked down on Strand Street. He said to me: “You know, Dennis, you would be safer in the middle of Adderley Street in Cape Town during peak time than on the sidewalks of New York City at this time of day.”

For years we wasted too much precious time, both inside and outside our schools, lamenting the poor standards and lack of facilities. However, I marvel today when I look at the books and apparatus of my younger son and my grandchildren at primary school level. It is far higher and better than the little slate which I used at primary school level during the late forties. We can therefore not deny that there has been improvement and upgrading of the provision of education, especially over the past decade.

Mr Chairman, I wish to ask today whether we are not neglecting some of the more fundamental matters in education in our quest for higher results, better symbols, more graduates and more exemptions. I am referring to discipline, religion, morality, conduct, cleanliness, civility, obedience and humility. Let us look around our townships at the conduct of some of our children. Some of those children even passed through our hands, through my hands. We discover that, away from us and our guidance in the classroom at school, they have again deteriorated with regard to their attitudes, their behavioural patterns and discipline.

I believe we are spending far too much time preparing our children for examinations and I feel that we should take another look at the present system of three examinations per year coupled with an endless number of weekly and other tests to build up the academic side of the child. I am of the opinion that there should be more religious instruction in our schools. Half an hour or one hour is not enough if we look at the decline of morality among our children. There should be more sex education in our schools as well and education in driving, swimming, road safety and first aid should be among the practical subjects taught in our schools.

Are we not neglecting to teach our children at an early age how to conduct themselves properly at all times? Has this not contributed to the large number of stay-aways and the truancy problems as well as the gangster elements which we experience in our townships? Too many mothers have given priority to the work-place and employment rather than to the upbringing of their children. However, because education cannot be divorced from the socio-economic situation in which many of our pupils find themselves away from school, something must be done and more must be done to accommodate our children in extra-mural activities after the bell has rung. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I want to address myself to these verbal terrorists who have all…

Order! Will the hon member please repeat that?

I want to address myself to these verbal terrorists, Mr Chairman. [Interjections.]

Order! Would hon members just give me a chance to hear what is being said?

Mr Chairman, I want to address myself to these verbal terrorists… [Interjections.]

Order! We are not terrorists in this House. The hon member must withdraw that.

Mr Chairman, I shall withdraw the part relating to terrorists. [Interjections.]

†They have been absent before when we had joint sittings, because we have had to do the sitting. Now they come here, attack and then run. No fewer than three of them were meant to take part in this debate today and they are conspicuous by their absence.

*Mr Chairman, I had to help the poor hon member for Ravensmead out of here. That poor hon member could not stand the smell of liquor. Those were his words. He is outside and he is very sick. Are these people that we can trust in the coming election? [Interjections.] Can we leave our affairs…

They are bottle terrorists.

Order! Would hon members just give me a chance? I was busy here. Would the hon Chief Whip please repeat what he said?

Mr Chairman, I said they were bottle terrorists.

Order! The word “terrorists” cannot be permitted in that form. No hon member is a terrorist.

Bottle wooers, Mr Chairman. [Interjections.]

Order! That is all right. [Interjections.] Order! Other hon members are not permitted to pass remarks from another hon member’s bench. The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, they have been running around the countryside, trying to start little fires. However, I want to warn them that these fires die as soon as they leave town.

*Here are a number of dissatisfied people who are trying to create propaganda for the election—not only propaganda but also “propagoose”—and it is time that they were exposed. [Interjections.]

Where are they?

Sir, today not one of them is sitting here. Hon members can take a count—not one of them is here. In such an important debate not one of them is here and then they want to pretend outside that they are the people who can do the thing.

I want to express our thanks briefly for the new school at Buffalo Flats in East London where our children can now receive practical training.

There is a place in East London which is currently known as the Pineapple Research Station. We shall soon be taking over that area. That is the area between the airport and the Buffalo River, passing right by that very Pineapple Research Station. There is a building there which, when we take it over, can serve the Bethelsdorp branch as a technikon which already exists at the old St John’s Avenue school. That new complex can then be housed in the Pineapple Research Station when we take over that entire area shortly. I should like the support of the department in that in their planning they bear that place in mind for the establishment of a technikon. This would facilitate the task of the Bethelsdorp branch in East London very greatly.

I am pleased to see that one of the hon “verbals” is back in the House. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member for Border is very quick and clever. When he is speaking, I wish he would speak in such a way that I can hear what he is saying and not talk in that direction. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, I said that I was very pleased to see that one of the “verbals” was back.

[Inaudible.]

Order! Would the hon member for Bishop Lavis control himself?

Here comes one of the hon “verbals” and he is acting just like a “verbal”…

Yes, one has to react like that.

Order! [Interjections.] The hon member may proceed without mentioning hon members’ names.

I am pleased to see that one of the hon members is back again. [Interjections.] They went to render first aid to the hon member for Ravensmead whom we caused to become ill. [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

I want to proceed.

[Inaudible.]

Oh, Sir, as sure as I am standing here I am Peter Mopp.

He is not sure…

Order! The hon member for Border is to proceed now.

I want to speak about the competition between teachers which is detrimental to the child. Nowadays there is such a thing as merit awards. For someone to raise his merit symbol, he has to ensure that his class performs well. Now he has to compete with other members of staff who teach the same standard. The children receive false marks in that competition among the teachers so that one teacher’s performance looks better than that of another. This system has to be abolished; it is detrimental to our children. [Interjections.]

Hon members may say that this is not so but it is true. I know what I am talking about. There are honest teachers at high schools who award the children a mark which they deserve. If a child has to fail, then he fails. There are some of the younger people, however, who want to progress and become principals and deputy principals of schools and who ensure that their record which the inspector has to see looks as good as possible. Those are the teachers who award their students false marks so that their records can look their very best for the inspector. Those people who enter such falsified figures in the records do this to the detriment of our children in the hope that it will be to their advantage. That competition between teachers must be abolished.

The other point which I want to raise is that heads of department are now being appointed. Instead of ensuring that the subject is presented better, they act like little monsters and breathe down the necks of most of the teachers. They terrorise them and, instead of extending the expertise, they act like little terrorists towards the other teachers who by chance come under their control now. This causes unpleasantness at many schools. That is why I wish that this aspect could be examined and where possible discontinued.

Mr Chairman, I consider it a very great privilege and certainly a pleasure to participate in this debate on education as the welfare of our education is very dear to my heart. The importance of pre-school education in preparing pupils for school was emphasised in this House by our hon Minister this afternoon. I want to quote from the Government’s White Paper, in reaction to the HSRC report of 1981, the so-called De Lange Report. It reads inter alia:

The hon the Minister of National Education then announced a 10-year plan in March 1986 through which inter alia an additional increase of 4,1% was promised in total education expenditure in order to eliminate the inequality in education, especially in the education department with the greatest backlog. That is why it is such a pity to hear from the hon the Minister this afternoon that the hon the Minister of National Education has not even provided for pre-school education in his education formula. As regards the admission of pupils at five and a half years of age, I want to appeal to the department to request school principals that those schools which receive applications for admission to a primary school of pupils who are five and a half years old provide for such pupils.

In 1986 approximately 55,5% of teachers were underqualified. There is therefore a large number of teachers whose qualifications and training must be improved. The rapid progress in the field of education technology, as well as new developments which are continually taking place in education, have made it imperative that quality in-service training courses be offered on a continuous basis. In this way, teachers will be able to improve their qualifications as well as their educational knowledge to keep pace with the latest developments in the field of education. I therefore want to propose that an investigation be conducted into the provision of a college for continued in-service training courses. I next want to appeal to the hon the Minister to lower the entrance requirements for serving teachers for teletuition in teaching diploma courses at the Roggebaai College, as well as for certain diploma courses at the University of the Western Cape, to enable those underqualified teachers to improve their educational qualifications. I want to request in this connection that serving teachers be exempted, with the requirement that one of the two listed subjects be a subject on the higher grade. I am not referring to languages here.

Secondly, many of these serving teachers do have one of the two listed subjects which are required for admission to a TD course, such as geography, biology, etc, on their Matriculation Certificate. I want to request the hon the Minister to exempt them from at least one of the two required subjects to enable such teachers to start their studies for a teaching diploma.

I also want to appeal to the hon the Minister to make a further concession to these serving, underqualified teachers regarding the qualification which requires Std 8 plus two years—it is also known as the so-called AA category—as well as to teachers who do not have a Matriculation Certificate. If these teachers intend taking a teaching diploma, I want to request the hon the Minister to exempt them from the entrance requirement that they have a Matriculation Certificate. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon members for Mid Karoo, Fish River and Silvertown are to lower their voices. The hon member for Bokkeveld may proceed.

In cases where a serving teacher gains a teaching diploma without a Matriculation Certificate, I want to propose that such a teacher be issued with an intermediate teaching diploma which may later be converted to a full teaching diploma when he obtains the Matriculation Certificate one day. The then Department of Coloured Affairs issued such an intermediate teaching diploma between 1973 and 1976.

The education department is further experiencing a shortage of teachers especially in highly specialised disciplines such as well-trained school psychologists who are registered with the SA Medical and Dental Council as psychologists, computer specialists who can offer the subject of computer studies, as well as professionally trained teachers of agriculture and technical subjects, especially electronics. I want to propose that the department consider giving serving teachers the opportunity to take this type of course at a university or technikon on a full-time basis by granting them study leave on full salary. I am putting this request specifically because the department permitted six teachers of agriculture to have full-time training on this basis in 1976; the hon member for Dysselsdorp was one of these.

It has been proved time and again that the computer is an indispensable aid which may be used with great success in education. I shall therefore quote from the HSRC educational research programme with the title “Die Rekenaar in Onderwys en Opleiding”:

We already have this sophisticated equipment at our colleges and at some schools but we do not yet have enough computer specialists to utilise this equipment to the optimum. I therefore want to suggest that the hon the Minister first consider phasing in Computer Studies, Standard Grade and Computer Studies, Higher Grade as an examination subject for Stds 8, 9 and 10 at the 27 schools which are already equipped with computers.

Secondly, as we do not yet have teachers in our department capable of teaching this proposed new examination subject, I want to make a further appeal that the hon the Minister approve that a limited number of selected teachers take up full-time studies in this discipline at a university on a study bursary and full salary so that they may obtain the necessary qualifications for this.

Thirdly, in order to encourage students to register for computer studies for teaching purposes at a university, I want to request that the subject of computer studies or computer science be included as one of the subjects which will be recognised for obtaining a study bursary for teaching purposes. I was pleased to notice that we have 17 secondary schools where technical disciplines are offered. I want to make a further appeal to the hon the Minister to examine the phasing in of another three technical subjects, ie panel beating, plumbing and electronics.

I want to make a further appeal to the hon the Minister to extend the system of credit for courses which have been passed at tertiary institutions. There are many students and serving teachers who pass courses at a university and do not complete their degree at that university, but who then switch to a teaching diploma. I want to call upon the hon the Minister to recognise and to credit such students and serving teachers with courses which they have passed at university when they register for a teaching diploma. I may mention here that the University of the Western Cape already recognises the academic subjects of a college for graduate purposes if a student with a teaching diploma registers for the purpose of obtaining a degree.

I want to appeal to the hon the Minister as well this afternoon to extend the system of merit bursaries. At present the system works in such a way that, when a pupil gains an A-average symbol in the Matriculation Examination, he obtains a merit bursary of R200 per annum in addition to the teaching bursary which he may also be granted if such a student takes up teaching.

The reports of the HSRC and the President’s Council on education in the RSA emphasise the fact that the vast majority of our school-going children come from less privileged surroundings where they are not sufficiently motivated in our schools owing to unfavourable socio-economic factors. In consequence of this, I want to appeal to the hon the Minister to increase the child’s external motivation from the side of the education department and I want to propose the following in this regard.

Firstly, the merit bursary should be increased to R500. A student who matriculates with an A-average symbol should be given the assurance of a bursary for any discipline, whether it is the study of medicine or engineering. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I consider it a particular privilege to participate in this debate. I want to congratulate the hon the Minister of Education and Culture on the purposeful, trailblazing speech which he made in this House today. I want to repeat that our education is certainly in good hands.

Permit me to congratulate the hon the Deputy Minister of Education and Culture again on his appointment as Deputy Minister. As a person from education and of education who always served education proudly in the standing committee where we worked together for so many years, I want to congratulate him and say that the honour is well deserved.

Hear, hear!

Before I comment on what the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition said here, permit me first to sketch a few matters which affect my constituency. As I come from the Free State, I listened in dismay to the hon the Minister when he announced where improvements were to be effected and school buildings erected throughout South Africa, with the exception of the Free State.

Which country is the Free State?

Mr Chairman, hon members will be aware that this is the least developed part of South Africa and that there is a great shortage of school accommodation. There is a mobile unit which was incorrectly situated at Jagersfontein. It is in the centre of an area where development has to take place. An area has already been approved which has been accepted by the department and I believe that funds must be found somewhere to erect a school here. At present the school is in the centre of a limited area where we are able to erect schools.

The hon the Minister also knows that there is a great shortage of hostel accommodation in the Southern Free State, especially at Koffiefontein. Last year the hon the Minister said that Koffiefontein, Jagersfontein and Trompsburg would receive priority and be included in the five-year plan so that needs could be provided. I therefore want to appeal to the hon the Minister and ask him to view this compassionately and fulfil our needs dutifully. [Interjections.]

I am grateful that the hon Whip of the Official Opposition is here because I should like to send the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition a message. We have one great problem—the hon the Minister emphasised it in his speech—viz that newly qualified teachers do not want to take up country posts. Accommodation is one of the greatest reasons why they do not want to do this. I want to appeal to the administration and ask whether it would not be possible for them to investigate this matter of furnishing teachers in rural areas with accommodation so that this great problem area could be removed.

I also want to know what the possibilities are that married women teachers no longer be appointed in a temporary capacity but in a permanent capacity. I next want to enquire whether it is possible for them to receive a housing subsidy.

Mr Chairman, the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition spoke English and I should therefore like to say the following in English. I want to convey the central idea of the LP policy on education to him in English.

†To return to the issues that the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition raised in his attack on the hon the Minister of Education and Culture and his administration, let me assure hon members once more that our education is in the right hands.

Allow me to spell out to the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition the goals which the LP has set itself to achieve with its pledge to liberate the people we undertook to represent in this House. The LP realized long ago that education cannot be discussed in isolation from the rest of society. We wish to acknowledge that education cannot be divorced from the social and political set-up. We realize that in order for anyone to understand education, he must of necessity understand the nature of society. Let me emphasise to the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition that the LP has identified the interplay of the social forces and contradictions as a precondition to deciding what action we would embark upon in our struggle to improve the educational development of our people.

We realized long ago that if we want to continue the type of struggle we are engaged in as the liberators of our people, we can only achieve success by getting in and fighting effectively for the total breakdown of apartheid from within. We have realized that the social system we are fighting will not disappear through logic alone. Apartheid is an evil. It is decadent and must go. However, if the hon the Leader of the Official Opposition thinks that it will simply disappear because of its irrationality or immorality, as he implied in his speech, I am afraid he is living in a dream world.

We in the LP have realized that in order to achieve fundamental change we must confront the forces of apartheid on every plane—ideologically, politically, educationally, on the shop floor, in our communities and in rural areas. To put it more bluntly, the LP regards the existence of apartheid not as something which cannot be negotiated. We will struggle and fight until it is no more. We wish to make it quite clear that there is no doubt in our minds that the educational development of all the people of South Africa is directly related to the development of our country as a whole. That is why the hon the Minister reiterated his administration’s commitment to the provision of equal educational opportunities for all the people of South Africa.

Order! The hon member for Dysselsdorp’s voice is extremely loud. He had better return to his seat.

Thus they have set the process of real change in education fully in motion by opening our schools to all and sundry.

We in the LP realize that on the one hand we have to satisfy a growing social demand for education and that we have to provide skilled and trained manpower for commerce and industry whose needs are becoming more and more sophisticated. On the other hand, we have to cope with and are confronted with the unwillingness of the Nationalist Government to divorce education from its ideology of separateness with its elements of racism.

To sum up, the LP of South Africa will endeavour to realize the following aspirations: The democratization of education, the negation of apartheid in education by making education relevant to the democratic struggle of the people, the achievement of a high level of education for everyone, and the bridging of the gap between theoretical knowledge and practical everyday life.

In order to achieve our goals we will fight until apartheid and all its evils are no more.

*We want to take this opportunity to tell hon members of the opposition that we are experiencing a calm and peaceful period at present. It is a period in which children may be educated calmly. There is calm and peace and progress at our schools. It is a pity that we experienced an era in our education which we should like to wipe out, when education was exposed to anarchism and school boycotts. It was an era when unrest and strife were spread at our schools on a large scale. It was a period when there was no contact between the House of Representatives and educational bodies.

†The most important factor today is the attitude of the person who is at the head of affairs in the department. That attitude has changed the whole climate which existed in the heyday when anarchy and unrest prevailed in our schools.

We are happy that at last tranquillity exists and progress can be seen in our schools.

Debate interrupted.

Mr Chairman, there is no doubt that the Indian community in South Africa can be proud of its achievements in the educational field. Since the late 19th century our forebears provided educational resources for our children at a time when the State’s responsibility for Indian education was minimal. However, I am not unmindful of the recent problems that education has faced and the adverse effects these have had.

In this regard, I refer mainly to the report of the James Commission and its findings. I have taken particular note of those issues concerning education and have instructed my department to formulate procedures that will prevent the recurrence of malpractices.

And you should resign!

The grim revelations concerning the allocation of orders for the supply of school books have prompted the department to devise new procedures that will ensure complete honesty and fairness in allocations. [Interjections.] When implemented, this system will allow for greater parental involvement in decision-making at the local level.

[Inaudible.]

It will generate competition and encourage the free market system in the book trade and, most important, it will be perceived by the taxpayers to be a judicious method of expending State funds.

With regard to the Odeon Cinema Complex I am pleased to report that the Ministers’ Council has decided that the complex is to be disposed of by public tender. I am, however, mindful of the cultural needs of the community and have requested my department to investigate the possibility of establishing a purpose-built cultural centre.

I have called for inputs from several sectors on the procedures involved in the evaluation of educators for promotion purposes and merit awards. I have no doubt that the existing procedures need to be revised in a manner that should make provision for checks and balances that will ensure complete objectivity in a matter that is of tremendous concern to the community. I consider it of paramount importance that the evaluation of educators is undertaken by persons of integrity.

You do not have enough of them!

I am happy to be able to report that political interference in the administration and management of the provision of education, including the appointment, transfer and promotion of educators and other staff members has ceased. The Director-General and the Chief Executive Director are in firm control and indications are that a greater measure of confidence and stability prevails among both educators and officials.

It is a far cry from that!

Recent litigation in which judgement went against the administration in a matter related to staffing…

You did not know what you doing.

You tried to rectify the Raj!

And you still want him.

Order!

Mr Chairman, may I have a ruling from you? Is it proper that when the hon the Minister is delivering his Budget speech we have that type of interruption from the hon member Mr Abram?

Order! That is not a point of order. I am appealing to hon members to please give the hon the Minister the opportunity to address the House on his Budget Vote. The hon the Minister may proceed.

Recent litigation in which judgement went against the administration in a matter related to staffing has, however, revealed certain weaknesses in the Public Service Act which will be receiving attention in consultation with the Commission for Administration.

You wasted all our money.

Order! I want to appeal to hon members not to interrupt the hon the Minister when he is delivering his main budget speech.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: According to the Standing Rules of Parliament every hon member of Parliament is entitled to interject.

Order! No, that is not correct. The rules are clear. When a Minister reads his main budget speech he deserves the attention of hon members of this House. I appeal to hon members to observe that rule. The hon the Minister may continue.

Let him continue!

I am pleased to announce that of the 902 newly qualified educators who had applied for posts in this department since 1987, 772 are in employment at schools. The department is trying its utmost to secure posts for the remaining 130 educators but the absence of vacancies is an inhibiting factor. This situation is further aggravated by the fact that the educators are refusing to accept appointments in the Transvaal when vacancies occur there. I should be able to elaborate on that later on. [Interjections.]

In the present socio-political climate there is a need for greater co-operation among the various sectors within the community. There are several forces emerging with different views of what is perceived as reality and what they desire for their community. Within this context, education should be seen as the unifying force and all responsible persons and organisations should work to this end. In this regard my department has planned a series of strategies to promote a healthier relationship between all sectors of the community and the school.

[Inaudible.]

At this point, I wish to dwell briefly on the opinions and views expressed recently by the Teachers’ Association of South Africa in a welter of publicity. This Administration, through the initiative of the Director-General, had been engaged in establishing a sound working relationship with Tasa when, for no apparent reason and without consultation, on 6 March 1989 Tasa withdrew from participation in the South African Council for Education, the Research Committee for Educational Structures and all departmental subject committees.

Why did they do it?

Order! I have asked hon members not to interrupt the hon the Minister while he is delivering his main budget speech. I want to remind hon members that interjections will not be allowed while the hon the Minister is busy delivering this speech. The hon the Minister may proceed.

That should be his final warning.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: I do not take final warnings from anybody on that side of the House.

Mr Chairman, as the Leader of the party on this side of the House and as a colleague of the hon the Minister I think that it is high time that dignity and decorum prevailed in this House. The matter is absolutely clear. I have confirmed with the official that when the hon the Minister is delivering his address he must be given the opportunity to do so without interruption. I plead with you, Mr Chairman, that if the hon member continues in this manner he should be asked to withdraw from this Chamber. [Interjections.]

Order! I have given my ruling previously. I appeal to hon members once again please to respect the Chair and not to interject while the hon the Minister is delivering his main budget speech. This is a final warning. I will be forced to ask hon members to withdraw from the Chamber if they do not abide by my ruling from now on. The hon the Minister may proceed.

Thank you, Mr Chairman. Even before the department had received the resolution adopted by Tasa, the contents was released to the media by this organisation. In my response, which gave Tasa three weeks to convince me that it was worthy of continued recognition, it was pointed out to Tasa that recognition was statutorily and specifically for the purpose of consultation. This meant that the withdrawals referred to, removed the legal basis for recognition. If recognition were withdrawn, stoporder facilities would also lapse. Stating these harsh realities to Tasa was not, and is not, a threat, but Tasa and its sister organisations have labled it as such. This is patently incorrect and my conscience is clear.

The withdrawal of recognition from a teachers’ organisation such as Tasa will obviously not be in the best interests of education as I believe consultation with all parties is essential. However, should Tasa choose to revert to the policy of confrontation it had seemed to have discarded, and pursue what I can only surmise may be a hidden agenda, it will have to suffer the consequences. Once again, I reiterate our appeal to Tasa to rejoin the partnership with the department in securing the best in education for our children. Our oft repeated invitation to Tasa still stands without any prejudice to its autonomy. Happily, Tasa has agreed to meet the Ministers’ Council and provided no unattainable goals are set, I believe we shall repair the damage done to our relationship.

Since writing the speech we have met Tasa and at this stage I want to make a statement. I am pleased to report that the Ministers’ Council met Tasa in Cape Town on 9 May 1989 in an honest attempt to remove the static that had been jamming the communications link between my department and Tasa.

At the conclusion of the six-hour meeting, which was very fruitful, the following media release which had been drawn up jointly by Tasa and the Ministers’ Council was issued by the chairman, Dr J N Reddy.

Notwithstanding the positive tenor of this factually precise statement of the detailed discussions, a Natal newspaper still deemed it fit to fan discontent among the profession and the community by publishing that very afternoon an article under the headline “Tasa is still not happy after talks”. However, I will be able to show hon members a little later that Tasa is happy.

Lest hon members are easily swayed by the contents of this article—I believe that they will not be—I hasten to correct the deliberate inaccuracies published by this newspaper. On page two of my Budget speech I have stated that since 1987, 902 newly qualified educators had to be employed. Of these, to date, fewer than 130 are still unemployed. Where does this newspaper pick up the totally incorrect information that there are 1 500 jobless teachers? [Interjections.]

Whilst the meeting had helped both parties to find each other once again and to restore their professional relationship, I fail to understand why this newspaper, which has always been responsible in its reporting, now appears to be opposed to any accord that will promote the well-being of the Indian community and chooses to unleash a mischievous attack on the good work of both the administration and Tasa.

This morning’s The Natal Mercury states under the headline “No interference in Indian education”:

Technical education

Emphasis on technical education is a global phenomenon. My department, recognising the importance of this service, continues to promote technical education in order to give expression to the need for a balance between general-formative preparatory academic education and general-formative preparatory career education, with the emphasis on the differentiation between academic study and career preparation.

Trade subjects are offered at four secondary schools which are equipped with workshops in which pupils are taught skills related to the trade of their choice. Enrolment at these schools is encouraging and is often limited only by the availability of workshop space.

The Phoenix Technical Secondary School, which is nearing completion, will admit its first pupils in January 1990. The school has workshops for electronics, electrician work, motor mechanics, fitting and turning, welding and metal-working, plumbing and sheetmetal-working, as well as basic workshop practice for junior secondary pupils. Provision for the construction of technical secondary schools in the Chatsworth, Pietermaritzburg and Stanger areas has also been made.

An amount of R2,73 million has been provided in the 1989-90 budget for furniture and equipment for the Phoenix Technical Secondary School.

Technika subjects

Technika subjects permit an academic study of certain engineering disciplines found in the technological environment. Technika electronics, which focuses on the light current field of electrical engineering, is now offered at senior secondary level at eleven schools. In this subject pupils explore communications, control and instrumentation and are introduced to the underlying principles of computers, radio, television and electronic equipment. The subject was introduced at the standard eight level at a further six schools in 1989—this year. It is proposed that Technika Electrical, which covers heavy current electrical engineering, will be introduced in schools in my department in 1990.

It is noteworthy that technika subjects are laboratory rather than workshop-based, and that the emphasis is on inquiry and experimentation. Modern sophisticated equipment is provided to equip the laboratories. Purchase of equipment for technika subjects in 1989-90 is estimated at R857 000.

Technical colleges

Technical colleges provide for the formal and non-formal post-school education of the communities they serve. These services have been received with enthusiasm and courses such as typing, computer studies and hairdressing are generally in great demand. It is estimated that R569 000 is required to provide equipment needed at the technical colleges in the 1989-90 financial year.

Plans for the Cato Manor Technical College, which is to replace Sastri Technical College, are still on the drawing board and it is projected that the institution will be brought into service in January 1994.

Computer education

In 1988, 69 students offered computer studies as a seventh subject for the senior certificate examination. A pass rate of 98,5% with 15 students obtaining distinctions was achieved in 1988.

At the beginning of 1989 all secondary schools were supplied with a full complement of computers. Computer studies as a sixth subject in the fourth phase of the school curriculum has been introduced at approximately 50 schools. It is extremely vital that our pupils be prepared adequately for the 1990s and beyond when computers will predominate in both the domestic and the work environments of the individual.

Professional development centres

My department’s five teachers’ centres are continuing to contribute to the professional growth of our educators. Regular meetings, workshops and courses are held at the centres to enhance knowledge and skills of the practitioners.

Community education centres

Community education centres play a vital role in providing academic, cultural enrichment and life-skill courses to our community. My department intends to establish additional centres during the year in areas where the demand for such services exists.

Pre-service teacher education

The declining trend in the birth rate, the resultant drop in the demand for teachers and financial constraints have led to to reduced intake of first-year teacher education students. As in the past three years, the present intake caters for a teacher demand resulting from “wastage”, that is death, retirement, resignation and boarding. In the present financial year, provision has been made for the awarding of 250 loans to first-year students.

Further training

The department, in keeping with national trends, is currently considering the feasibility of offering an M+4 part-time correspondence course over two years for in-service level 1 educators in the M+3 category from 1990 at the Springfield College of Education. About 500 educators per year will be so trained.

Special courses

In-service teachers are being offered the following part-time courses at the M L Sultan Technikon, namely the Intensive Electronics Retraining Programme over two years for the educators of Technika, and the National Teachers’ Diploma (Workshop) over two years for professionally unqualified educators of trade subjects presently at technical secondary schools.

Specialised diplomas at universities

In consultation with the University of Durban-Westville and the University of South Africa, the department selected teachers to specialise in two-year part-time diplomas in the following fields:

Educational research

As educational research strengthens the information base for education decision-making, the research section of the department is engaged in several projects aimed at providing data which help improve educational practice at schools.

Seeing that education for the gifted is an important component in the overall provision of education, the department is giving priority to the launching of this service on a pilot basis at a number of schools. The department is also investigating the role and functions of the parent bodies in education with a view to extending their powers.

Special education

There continues to be a growing demand for the provision of comprehensive facilities in order to cater adequately for the special educational needs of the handicapped child. This demand could be attributed to the following factors:

1. 1) the active involvement of the community in the field of special education;
2. 2) the significant progress made by individual institutions insofar as pupil-achievement is concerned; and
3. 3) the technological developments in the field of special education.

The school curriculum

On the matter of policy and the nature of the school curriculum, my department remains committed to the view that all pupils should be afforded the opportunity of access to a broad, balanced, relevant and coherent curriculum. The many innovations in the primary and secondary school curricula are ample evidence of my department’s efforts to keep pace with the changing times and to make its educational programmes more relevant.

My department continues to fulfil its role in providing an enhanced curriculum service in its schools. New subjects are being introduced into the secondary school curriculum for example Computer Studies and Technika subjects.

The updating of facilities and equipment for existing subjects involving vast amounts of money is also receiving attention. But this is money well spent. My department cannot afford to lag behind while other departments are making significant strides in curriculum renewal and development.

I wish to report on two interesting developments in the senior primary phase curriculum. Firstly parents continue to exercise their option in choosing Arabic or Gujarati or Hindi or Tamil or Telegu or Urdu for their children at the senior primary level. Even in cases where schools do not have teachers on their staff for these languages, the department engages the services of language experts from outside on a part-time basis.

Secondly an exciting development in the primary school curriculum is the introduction of a new subject, namely Cultural Studies. This subject is aimed at instilling an understanding and appreciation of Black, White, Coloured and Indian cultures. One of the fundamental aims of the subject is to make pupils aware of the underlying humanity and core human values that are shared by all cultures.

Pre-primary education

As no specific provision is made in the education financing formula for pre-primary education, the rate of acceleration of this service falls below the community’s actual needs. Nevertheless, my department has been able to provide R3 672 000 for the continuation and expansion of this essential service.

The statistical position is as follows:

• —As at January 1989, there were 37 private pre-primary schools registered with the department, providing a service for about 2 692 pre-primary children. Subsidy provision to the extent of R685 000 has been made in the 1989-90 Estimates for private pre-primary schools run on a non-profit basis.
• —The Departmental Bridging Module Readiness Classes Project for 5-year-olds was extended in January 1989 with the institution of a further 20 units, raising the total to 104 and catering for 3 120 5-year-olds.
• —To meet the need of providing a readiness programme for all 5-year-old children, the department assists community organisations conducting readiness classes by subsidising the salaries paid to the educators.

Senior Certificate Examination—1988

Quite understandably the focus of attention of education departments is on the examination results of their senior certificate candidates.

There has been some unjustified adverse publicity in the media regarding the 1988 Senior Certificate Examination. The issues raised by some sections of the community and by certain Members of Parliament were in most instances without any foundation. It is meaningless to look at the Senior Certificate Examination results in isolation. To obtain a clearer perspective of the Senior Certificate Examination results, it is important to consider the unfavourable socioeconomic background of large sections of our community. Given these adverse conditions, most of our candidates produced very good results, as exemplified by the following details.

In the 1988 Senior Certificate Examination the pass percentage improved by 2% to reach a new high of 95,12% and the percentage of matriculation exemption passes increased by 3,12% to 72,39%. A noteworthy achievement was that 243 candidates obtained “A” aggregates in comparison to 155 in the 1987 examination. A pleasing feature of the 1988 examination is the performance of the top candidates. Seven candidates obtained a “full-house” result, with one candidate obtaining seven As and overall there were 2 292 subject distinctions compared to 1 763 in 1987.

Sports and coaching

My department is similarly engaged in the promotion of sports as an integral component for the allround development of the child. With this goal in mind, educators in charge of sport at the schools are offered structured coaching clinics and workshops regularly in the various codes of sport in order to hone their skills. A comprehensive athletics coaching course involving 1 198 primary and secondary school educators was conducted at the University of Durban-Westville Sports Complex and the Settlers’ Park Field in Ladysmith by the department’s superintendents in charge of sports with the assistance of other invited coaching experts.

The beneficial effects of this coaching course are already being felt in the performance achievements of the pupils. Similar courses are being planned for the promotion of hockey at school level. In order to ensure that the pupils are not disadvantaged or in any way restricted in their participation in sports, my department has upgraded the standard lists for the supply of a wider range of sports equipment for all codes of sports including golf, softball and swimming. The department’s recognition and acceptance of the fact that school-based sports should be on a par with the academic curricula of the pupils has led to the creation of the post of superintendent of education (sport promotion) at level six. This high-powered post has already been advertised and it is anticipated that it will be filled shortly.

Private education

Registered private ordinary schools that are run on a non-profit basis are now being considered for a grant-in-aid. For the 1988/89 financial year a sum of R4 875 was paid to the Christian Brothers’ College in Bloemfontein as a subsidy payment towards the fees of Indian pupils attending that institution. The application for a subsidy from Ahmedia School, now called Lockhat Islamia College, will be considered once the department’s prerequisites are complied with and relevant information is furnished.

Payments of grants-in-aid to State-aided schools

Grants-in-aid payable to State-aided schools have been increased substantially. The new rates payable vary according to the schools’ enrolment and range from R4 528 per annum for a very small school with an enrolment of 24 pupils to R17 970 per annum for the largest school. Under the repairs and renovation programme where provision has been made for the payment of a grant-in-aid up to a maximum of R30 000 per school, I am pleased to report that provision has been made for a further seven schools in the 1989/90 financial year.

Financial assistance is still available through the special work creation programme, which will continue during 1989.

Take-over of State-aided schools

The take-over of State-aided schools is considered generally at the request of the proprietors concerned and negotiations are only proceeded with if the department is satisfied that the acquisition of the school is a viable proposition. At present there are 47 State-aided primary and secondary schools, two of which are currently being considered for take-over and conversion to State schools.

Admission of pupils of other population groups

At the end of February 1989, 5 548 pupils of other population groups were attending schools under the control of my department. This is 1 316 more than last year’s figure. Applications for admissions of pupils of other population groups are considered in accordance with policy guidelines that have been formulated.

Financing of education

The system of financing education by means of a subsidy formula makes provision for the basic requirements of an education department. The state of the economy presently prevents the Exchequer from allocating the full subsidy so calculated. This year the shortfall was R83 million. Hon members must show understanding of the pressures this puts on my department. Unless the economy improves and the allocation for education is raised substantially, the administration will be hard pressed to provide funds for anything in excess of basic educational needs.

Moreover, programmes such as pre-primary education, provision of school halls, extension of non-formal education, transportation of pupils and provision of hostel accommodation are not catered for at all in the subsidy formula. Some of these costs had, of necessity, therefore to be covered by cutting back on finances in other programmes.

It is in these areas of expenditure that the principle of partnership can be gainfully explored. It may be a long time before the economy improves to an extent that would enable the Exchequer to extend the formula to programmes presently not covered. In the meantime, cooperation and assistance from the private sector and the community in a spirit of partnership, can make planned future provisions present realities.

Budgetary provisions

I shall now elaborate on the financial provisions for the Department of Education and Culture. For the 1989-90 financial year an amount of R589 284 000 is provided to conduct, promote and extend the activities of the department. This represents an increase of R128 157 000 or 27,8% on the amount voted for 1988-89.

Excluding capital expenditure, the per capita expenditure in respect of primary and secondary pupils was R1 857 in 1987-88 as compared to R1 714 in 1986-87. Including capital expenditure, the per capita expenditure was R2 014 in 1987-88 as compared to R1 904 in the previous year. Free education is still the order of the day in Indian education. The funds for my department are allocated according to four programmes which serve the needs of the department and which have defined objectives as follows:

Under the first Programme: Administration, an amount of R21 124 000 is provided for the personnel and administrative expenditure in respect of the ministerial staff, as well as the management and administrative staff attached to my department. Salaries and the State’s contribution to the Sanitas medical scheme constitute the major items of expenditure. As a result of increased rates implemented from time to time, additional expenditure will be incurred in respect of transport, telephone, telegraph and faxing services.

Programme 2: Education covers the direct expenditure on the various phases of education and the rendering of auxiliary services related to these phases of education. The amount provided under this programme is R485 548 000, R96 258 000 or 24,72% more than the amount voted in the 1988-89 financial year.

Personnel expenditure amounts to R421 404 000, an increase of R85 042 000 or 25,43% over the allocation of the previous year.

Under Programme 3: Tertiary Education, provision is made for the financing of current and capital expenditure in respect of the University of Durban-Westville and the M L Sultan Technikon. The financing of these two institutions is based on the SAPSE subsidy formula as determined by the Department of National Education. In terms of this formula, the university has been allocated an amount of R63 424 000, an increase of R25 780 000, while the technikon’s allocation amounts to R21 570 000, an increase of R1 889 000.

Included in the allocation to the university is an amount of R19 520 000 for capital expenditure. In addition to these amounts, an amount of R144 000 is provided for the salaries and other expenditure of staff members attached to my department performing administrative functions relating to tertiary education.

Under Programme 4: Cultural Advancement provision is made for the promotion of cultural matters such as physical recreational activities, arts and sciences, youth affairs and the rendering of specialised cultural services. In this regard an amount of R780 000 has been provided.

Major works building programme

For the 1989-90 financial year, 94 building services have been programmed. Of these, 66 are continuation services (already under construction) which commenced in the 1988-89 financial year while tenders are to be invited for 28 new services in the 1989-90 financial year.

Details of these services are as follows: Firstly, services under construction are 21 new schools (13 primary, seven secondary and one technical secondary); additions to 15 existing schools (nine primary and six secondary); two regional school halls and sports facilities at 28 existing schools.

Secondly, services programmed for tender are 11 new schools (eight primary, two secondary and one technical secondary); additions at 15 existing schools (nine primary and five secondary schools and one special school).

In concluding my policy statements on the education segment of my portfolio, I must point out to hon members that despite the calculated distractions of the prophets of doom and gloom my department has continued to function smoothly and with quiet efficiency. Irksome situations were promptly and decisively dealt with, thus securing the desired ambiance and restoring the confidence of the professionals to proceed with the important task of providing quality education to our youth.

I wish to place on record my sincere thanks to the Director-General, the Chief Executive Director of Education, other senior members of the administrative and professional staff and the various education committees in the community for their indefatigable work. I feel confident that they will continue relentlessly in the pursuit of excellence in education.

Directorate of Cultural Affairs

The Directorate of Cultural Affairs has been able to stimulate further support and provide direction to the many cultural organisations and leaders in the community. The results have been evident in the intense activity generated amongst Indian youth in the world of music and dance. Further links have also been forged with the Durban Publicity Association and the South African Broadcasting Corporation in relation to cultural interest of the community and their programmes.

Regional cultural councils

Four regional cultural councils (Durban and districts, Natal Midlands, South Coast and North Coast) have been established. Within the next few months the Northern Natal Regional Cultural Council is expected to be established giving Natal its five regional cultural councils. To date, there has been no response from the Transvaal and Cape Province.

Officials of the department have planned further visits to these provinces in order to have personal contact with cultural organisations and enlist their aid in securing applications for membership of the regional cultural councils.

Grants-in-aid

Eighteen cultural organisations have been given financial assistance to the total value of R195 000 during the 1988-89 financial year. This figure is expected to increase considerably with the establishment of the regional cultural councils. These councils will liaise with organisations in their regions and forward applications with their recommendations to the department.

The National Indian Orchestra

Plans have advanced further for this project.

That is a gimmick!

During the ensuing year invitations will be sent to musicians to apply for auditions. The hon member for Reservoir Hills can be one of them. [Interjections.] The required musical instruments, initially about 40, have been ordered. Musicologists are being contacted by my department frequently for advice, information and comments on planning.

Appointment of marriage officers

Since January 1988, 31 persons have been appointed as marriage officers. Ordained ministers of religion, practising priests and an official or office-bearer of an organisation, who is performing the duties of a priest, are considered for appointment.

Departmental projects

The culture promotion section has attracted great interest within the community with its own production of cultural concerts. One of the administration’s productions, “Folk dances of South Africa”, performed to a packed house at the Durban City Hall on 4 July 1988, has earned much acclaim for the administration.

Why do you not have the Zulu war dance?

The hon member can have it. A programme called “A Festival of the Performing Arts” is being planned for this year.

Cultural centres

The Arena Park Hall is being used by cultural organisations and a demand is expected for this venue for the staging of cultural projects. The major music festival of Natal schools scheduled for this year will also be staged there. The Directorate of Cultural Affairs is helping with this project.

Workshops

A number of cultural organisations held successful workshops, particularly for the Eisteddfods. This year the department will implement its own plans for workshops that will provide guidance to organisations for improved organisational skills and the upgrading of standards. These will be conducted in the three provinces.

In concluding my review of the second segment of my portfolio, namely the Directorate of Cultural Affairs, I must express my thanks to the senior officials and to the many individuals and organisations enlisted by them in a spirit of partnership for the promotion of culture in the community. The strong and committed leadership provided by the senior officials and the pooling of the intellectual and artistic talents of members of the community have ensured the successes of this sub-directorate, and I do feel confident that they will continue to safeguard the cultural heritage entrusted to them.

Mr Chairman, firstly I want to say that I am rather disappointed that the hon the Minister did not see fit to present his report to us in the way that hon Ministers normally do, namely some time in advance, whether it is a week or only a day. One can then prepare oneself and give constructive criticism. Is the hon the Minister perhaps scared of any criticism?

He has not learnt yet!

Whilst the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council has on numerous occasions talked of clean administration, it seems that the hon the Minister of Education and Culture has something to hide, hence he did not want to give us his report beforehand so that we could make some input today. Obviously we will now be repeating some of the things that he said here. If we had the report earlier, that would not have happened.

I want to refer to an incident from the Old Testament. I think it was Nebuchadnezzar who asked Daniel to decipher certain things that were written on the wall. Daniel answered him: “Thou art weighed in the balance and art found wanting.” I would say that applies to the hon the Minister too. [Interjections.]

I also want to refer to Oliver Goldsmith’s poem called “The village schoolmaster”. It contains the following words, and I quote:

I want to say that Oliver Goldsmith did not refer to this hon Minister. [Interjections.]

Once more, as in the past five years, the opportunity has been afforded me to give my input in this very vital debate on the Education Vote. Education for all races is of paramount importance and I will endeavour to be as objective as possible.

In the little time left before the impending elections, I hope that the hon the Minister in his wisdom will implement some of the suggestions made here, if not all of them. There will be some criticism of his Ministry and I hope the hon the Minister will take this in the spirit intended.

Firstly I want to talk about staff deployment. The circular to all schools in this regard was issued in 1986-87 and made it mandatory that teachers were not to teach more than two examination subjects and a maximum of three subjects altogether. This was stipulated for primary schools.

However, this circular was not completely adhered to as there are a number of schools where teachers are still called upon to teach three examination subjects, let alone two languages. This is an unsatisfactory situation, both for teachers and pupils, and detrimental to the pupils’ education.

It seems as though the hon the Minister has given tacit approval. Last year he intimated that the teacher: pupil ratio was about 1:23—I am subject to correction on that point—but we have schools with 29, 33 and 35 pupils per class. This is an unwieldy number and teachers are put under extreme strain.

At one school pupils are taught in a school hall and even behind drawn curtains on the stage—I am referring to Nizamia Primary School—where there is no proper ventilation or lights. Needless to say, the stage is adjoined by the toilets.

These pupils could easily be accommodated at nearby schools. I do realise that the problem has arisen due to selfish motives. The school I have mentioned would have dropped to a P3 school and the principal would have been displaced. Is the displacement of the principal of paramount importance even if it is to the detriment of the pupil? Are the inspectors in cahoots with their favourite principals? The hon the Minister is answerable to the community on these issues.

With regard to Indian languages, not all teachers who have the necessary qualifications are given the opportunity to teach these languages. In many instances, as the hon the Minister has mentioned in his report, part-time teachers are still being employed. Whilst these part-time or itinerant teachers are playing a vital role, the question I pose is: Why then should the student study these languages at a university if he will not be allowed to teach that subject at a school?

I now come to the subject of teaching time. Presently the time allocation per week is as follows: Principals, 5 hours; deputy principals, 10 hours; heads of departments, 20 hours; and teachers, a minimum of 23 hours. I would suggest the following changes: A principal should not teach at all, because very often in the midst of a lesson a parent with some problems or an inspector will want to see him and he will be forced to leave that class and attend to that problem. Once again it is the children who suffer.

Deputy principals should teach five to eight hours and heads of deparments should teach 15 to 18 hours per week. Teachers should teach a minimum of 21 hours and not more than 23 hours. This suggestion will allow the principal and the management staff more time to supervise the educational plans of the schools.

Newly qualified teachers should immediately be placed in permanent positions and normal service conditions should apply. The image of the House of Delegates is being tarnished as newly qualified teachers’ salaries are not paid timeously. Even in cases where teachers have been transferred from one school to another, it takes up to four months for salary advices to be redirected. [Interjections.]

On the question of child abuse I want to say that the present process to assist victims of child abuse is too bureaucratic. A pupil at a particular school had been abused since first coming to school. There is a strong possibility that he had been abused prior to entering school. I have been informed that the school timeously and regularly reported the matter to the relevant authorities over the past five years. More recently the child attempted suicide after being abused. This was reported to the social worker who only arrived seven days later to commence investigations.

We need an effective and practical procedure to be implemented and the wheels to be set in motion the moment a case is reported. Now that a child protection unit has been established at Northdale Hospital, a system needs to be devised between the hospital, the welfare section, the House of Delegates and the unit in the best interests of the victims.

I now wish to turn to promotions, but before doing so, I just wish to refer to one little paragraph from the hon the Minister’s report—the last sentence of the last paragraph. He states:

As far as that is concerned, my own view is that at present we do not have any educators of any integrity who are evaluating. This is still a very contentious matter, both in respect of what has happened in the past and in respect of the method adopted currently. In the past, a large number of teachers were promoted because of nepotism, favouritism and as a reward for favours done. [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

By whom?

Some of these people are occupying very senior positions in our education today.

[Inaudible.]

I want to say that I have always stood by the principle that if something is wrong, I would say so, even if it were I who was wrong.

[Inaudible.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Isipingo will have a chance to speak. He can say what he wants. However he must please not interrupt me because I have a duty to perform.

These very senior people did not get there on merit. If the present criteria for promotion were applied to them by impartial assessors and evaluators, their weaknesses would be glaring. Some were promoted because they were proficient in Afrikaans. Those that were promoted in spite of their deficiencies, have adopted an autocratic system of administration, not on modern democratic lines. These people are to a very great extent contributing to teacher stress. In the present system of promotion, some are still being favoured in their assessments by some superintendents who were responsible for sponsoring them initially. With the advent of the House of Delegates, some politicians played a leading role in the promotion of certain candidates, again on a basis of nepotism and favouritism and as a reward for furthering the aims of a political party.

Name them!

No merit was at issue here.

Order! Will the hon member resume his seat. I would like to quote Rule 77:

I would like to remind hon members of this particular rule and I would like hon members not to interrupt another hon member while he is speaking, since it is my intention to apply another rule if another interruption takes place. The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, could you apply another rule, since you have taken up my time, to give me a little extra time? [Interjections.]

As I was saying, no question of merit came into play in this regard. The James Commission heard that a certain school principal was involved with his clerk at a school in Port Elizabeth. This is a serious offence. However, for this misdemeanour, this comparative junior, I am told, was rewarded with promotion. Why, how, and by whom? The hon the Minister must give us a reasonable explanation.

Under the old system, those that were unpromotable had this written across their files. With political interference, these people suddenly became promotable and now occupy very senior positions. No-one really knows what score is fed into the computer or how authentic the score is. Is it a faulty computer, or a deliberate human error?

Another matter related to promotions is appointment to acting posts. A great deal of partiality has been shown in this respect. Does he think it is wise to get someone from another school to act, thus disrupting two schools? A senior deputy principal or a deputy principal should for example be given the opportunity to act at that school by virtue of the senior position he is holding at that school. Or is someone trying to sponsor another candidate? Was the senior at that school found wanting, or was he initially unpromotable but got there through political manoeuvring?

Last year much was discussed regarding teacher retirement. My amendment to the motion that teachers should be given the option to retire at the age of 55 was carried, and as yet I am not aware of any movement from the hon the Minister to implement this.

At age 55 some teachers are in their twilight years and what with an autocratic principal contributing to more stress, there is no productivity and the pupil suffers. I urge the hon the Minister to hasten the retirement age to 55 before his time is up. Should the hon the Minister not be able to consider retirement…

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member if he regards teachers to be in their twilight years at age 55? [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, what Oliver Goldsmith said does not refer to him and it would not refer to a lot of other people.

What about former teachers? Does that mean they are finished? [Interjections.]

Order! The hon member may proceed.

Should the hon the Minister not consider the retirement age of 55 years, the following should be borne in mind. Firstly, if one belongs to a retirement annuity fund, one can cash one-third of the benefits on reaching the age of 55. Why could the same principle not be allowed for the public service pension fund scheme? Secondly, many people—that is the public servants—purchase retirement annuities because of the tax advantage, and therefore it should be incorporated into the scheme and offered to all public servants.

Teachers belong to Sanitas medical aid. A teacher pays a certain portion and his employer pays the balance. However, the benefits of Sanitas do not compare favourably with other schemes. There is, for example, a limit of R1 000 on medicine for the member and his dependants. Because of the high cost of medicine today, this ceiling is reached within a short period. The limits for different benefits under the scheme need to be adjusted according to inflation.

There are some aspects of services rendered by the House of Delegates which could be privatised advantageously.

Including the House of Delegates!

These services should be identified, carefully studied and privatised with the House of Delegates being the watchdog. I am for example referring to cleaning services.

Public servants get a housing subsidy of R50 000 and this ceiling was set over six years ago. Due to inflation, property prices have risen sharply during this period, but the subsidy remained static. I am of the opinion that the ceiling should be raised to R85 000. To support this suggestion one should bear in mind that 70% of the present subsidy is taxable and very soon it may be 100% taxable.

To encourage home-ownership, a special rate of subsidy on additional payment is provided by the department. This is an advantage to those who purchased properties over 10 years ago. It does not help the newcomers. This aspect of the scheme should therefore be withdrawn and the savings from this withdrawal be made available to raise the ceiling to R85 000.

With regard to textbooks—and I know that the hon the Minister made mention of textbooks in his report—library books and reference books, I hope that the new system will evolve, after the irregularities uncovered by the James Commission. I see that the hon the Minister has partly outlined the system that will be adopted. Can he outline this further, or is somebody making a cut in that direction?

Some thought should be given to the possibility of allowing principals a free hand in purchasing books from a panel of reputable or recognised booksellers who could supply within a specified period. All book orders should be fully executed and completed long before the end of the year, so that all the books will be on hand for distribution at the beginning of the new year.

The system of prescribing textbooks in a particular subject, as adopted by the department, is undesirable. When booksellers submit a new textbook according to the syllabus to the department’s Subject Committee, it should be attended to immediately. Sometimes more than a year elapses before the textbook is approved and it takes over 18 months before it is placed on the catalogue for schools to purchase. All in all it takes approximately two years or longer before that book reaches the pupil. Why is there such a delay? Is it possible that the department officials or Subject Committee members have a vested interest in the compilation of textbooks for schools? In some subjects where a new syllabus has been introduced, for example Std 10 technical drawing, no textbook is available to date. I pose the question: Why?

The hon the Minister made a brief announcement as to why Tasa walked out of the Subject Committee. My response to that is: Although the matter has been resolved, why did it originally occur? It should not have occurred at all if somebody did not take a hasty decision in the matter.

Regarding remedial centres and special classes, there are few remedial classes at schools. It is imperative that a class be established at all schools where there are pupils with learning problems. The department must budget for and establish such classes at schools at a rate that will not lead to criticism of the department. Although a few schools have special classes for the not-so-handicapped children, the bulk of handicapped pupils attend training centres.

The University of Durban-Westville offers a diploma in special education and prospective teachers have to take up residence in Durban in an endeavour to complete such courses, as practicals have to be completed at training centres. Unisa also offers such a course. However, the teacher has to be attached to a training centre for the practicals; hence the drawback in enrolling with Unisa. The department, in conjunction with training centres, must work out a feasible plan to allow teachers to move to training centres for the duration of the practicals. More qualified, specialised teachers in this field will only benefit the community. The department must also have “floating” teachers in its contingency plan, as many teachers take leave for their own examination purposes.

Mr Chairman, it has been said that those who can, work, and those who can’t, teach. This has been said in jest. This afternoon, notwithstanding the riddles referred to by the hon member for Allandale, I wish to place on record my thanks and appreciation to the departmental officials, from the director to the last teacher.

I have been a vociferous critic of the control and management of education and culture, in the House of Delegates in particular, and in the Republic in general.

In dissecting education this afternoon, therefore, I shall continue to be consistent, notwithstanding the fact that the hon the Minister is now in solidarity. As in the past, I shall be constructive and objective in my criticisms, which have been abundantly vindicated by recent events.

Incidentally, I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate Mr Leslie Peters, who retired as the rector of the Springfield College of Education. Mr Peters has given almost a lifetime of service to education and on behalf of the House of Delegates and the community at large I wish him and his good wife a long and fruitful retirement.

After listening to the hon member for Allandale, I want to state that I did not clash with him. I differ with him with regard to his request to prevent principals from teaching. I think it is universally accepted that a teacher who has lost his zest for teaching has gone beyond the point of being of use in a school. Teaching by principals should of course not be a rigid requirement. I want the hon member to know that we on this side of the House are more than aware of the setbacks in Indian education. It will be sufficient to say at this stage that if he and hon members on that side of the House had shared our concern over the past four years, many of the maladies existing in education to this day, and referred to by him in eloquent terms, would have disappeared.

For purposes of the record, lest the public should feel that we have turned turtle, the rift in the upper hierarchy of management in the Department of Education of the House of Delegates is unprecedented. This has been evidenced by forceful measures against several officials in high positions for alleged irregularities. The Chief Director of Education: Planning has been suspended from duty, the Chief Director of Education: Professional Control and Academic Services has been relieved of delegated duties. An assistant director in the personnel section has also been suspended. Yet another, the Chief Superintendent: Academic—Humanities, has been transferred to another functional area with which the official is not familiar.

The official sought redress by taking legal action against the hon the Minister and the Director-General and the Chief Executive Director of Education, and was triumphant. The hon the Minister must tell this House and the community why a thorough investigation did not take place prior to relieving the official of his delegated functions and suffering the consequences thereof. It is obvious that when finance is at a premium as at present, this blunder cost the Department of Education R35 000 of taxpayers’ money.

The irony of this sad state of affairs is that it is this hon Minister who has been responsible for the promotion of all these officials. Therefore he cannot be absolved from blame. It is therefore as clear as daylight that our repeated allegations of malpractices in promotions during the last four years in this House, are fully justified and proven. Without further ado, in the interests of Indian education, a commission of enquiry into Indian education must be instituted forthwith.

The organised profession and concerned community organisations have also called for a commission of enquiry. This is the only way to arrest the rot in Indian education and nobody can deny this. I want to state categorically that what the James Commission exposed in education is just the tip of the iceberg. He very often said he did not want to hear any allegations of irregularity on the part of officials of the department. He only wanted to hear about Ministers and MP’s. This is obvious. The superficial probe of the Department of Education by the James Commission and its revelations is a sound motivation for a commission of enquiry into Indian education. No person who is interested in the welfare of Indian education should obstruct the appointment of such a commission of enquiry.

The question of promotion has been a vexed one in our community. There has been blatant political manoeuvering for promotion of teachers in Indian education. In 1985, 1986, 1987 and even in 1988 names have been deleted from lists of recommended promotions on instructions from politicians. Many favourites have been rewarded by promotion in high positions for political alliance and support. Many competent, able and suitably qualified applicants have been overlooked for holding views which were at variance with those in power.

Indian education is still plagued by mismanagement, malpractices and nepotism. Blame must therefore be placed fairly and squarely at the door of the hon the Minister or any other Minister who fills his place. It will be a lame excuse if the hon the Minister, or any other Minister, passes the buck to the deposed Chairman of the Ministers’ Council.

I want to make some reference to the evaluation system that was introduced in 1987. It was intended to replace, firstly, the routine inspection of teachers’ work, and secondly, control of merit scores given by principals and, thirdly, interviews for promotion. In the opinion of principals and teachers generally, Tasa included, this system of evaluation has failed to replace the above three categories for the following reasons.

The newly appointed teachers are not visited any more for guidance. This used to be done, and for very sound reasons. This has been left to the heads of departments at schools. Secondly, routine supervision where teachers’ work was supervised individually by supervisors and where most important guidance was given to individual teachers, has been discontinued, much to the detriment of the professional growth of teachers. This is a very important area and it is necessary that competent experts with experience give them that guidance, rather than allowing it to be done by a member who is head of a department or a member in a peer group.

The present evaluation system has an evaluation kit which names the various prescribed criteria and which emphasises the keeping of records, and is therefore detrimental to academic growth of pupils. It is encouraging that there are indications—according to press reports and from what the hon the Minister has indicated here this afternoon—that this so-called new evaluation system, which has fallen into disfavour, will be replaced by another system which will satisfy the parties and enhance education in general.

A fortnight ago the hon the Minister of National Education indicated in no uncertain terms that the well-supported 10-year plan for equality in education is floundering, very much to our disgust, if I may say so. He also admitted that through lack of money the State will be forced to reduce the per capita allocation. These statements are extremely disappointing. In the light of these statements, how does the hon the Minister of Education and Culture see the State funding of Indian education?

I now wish to refer to Tasa. We have heard the hon the Minister’s version. I am pleased that steps have been taken and that there has been a meeting. There will probably be ongoing meetings from now on, but I feel that the hon the Minister should adopt a reasonable attitude towards Tasa, following allegations which the hon the Minister himself, as well as other hon members, read out at the James Commission. I do not want to take Tasa’s part or the part of the Department of Education and Culture, but in fairness to Tasa, they are merely telling us what the James Commission indicated, namely that they must get together and sort out their problems. The only way in which they will sort out their problems, is by having a commission of inquiry. Tasa should not be condemned for this. On the contrary, they should be complimented.

The threat to withdraw recognition of Tasa and the hint to encourage another teachers’ organisation to replace Tasa, has been a poor reflection, to say the least. The hon the Minister should foster harmonious relations with Tasa, as both Tasa and the department have a common interest in the child.

In this regard I want to underline that mere consultations are not adequate. This is probably the cause of the problem. For the development of a healthy relationship between the department and Tasa there ought to be negotiations on many issues and in the interests of education this need should not be disputed. Is it not a pity that many of the issues between the department and Tasa could not be resolved apolitically but that politicians had to intervene with regard to many matters that could have been discussed over a cup of tea? [Interjections.]

There is growing concern amongst Indian community leaders about the delay in Sastri College reverting to an academic secondary school. Since its opening in 1929, Sastri College was a prestigious school. It attracted top students from all spheres of life from around the country and even from the then Rhodesia. It is the alma mater of some of South Africa’s top men.

The Afrikaner saw this institution as a symbol of progress in Central Durban and attempted to destroy its academic status. The time has now arrived for the hon the Minister to indicate in definite terms when Sastri College will revert to being an academic secondary school. Are we really going to submit to the Afrikaner’s intention of destroying the school which has played such an important role in the history of upgrading Indians in all walks of life in this country?

It is a monument.

I want to come to a few less important issues. The chief staffing clerk, Mr S C Naidoo, should be re-transferred to the personnel section. His transfer was politically motivated and grossly unfair. We cannot deny that. He was a highly efficient official of the department and his case needs to be reviewed now.

You are living in the past.

The hon the Minister should respond positively to this call.

The matter has already been sorted out.

I am not aware of that. If it has been sorted out it should have been published in the headlines. [Interjections.] We should get the full information from releases. This is not meant as criticism but at least all of us in Parliament should know. A Minister gets the full information from releases. The hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare periodically releases newsletters which are very useful to all of us.

I am concerned about the recent report of the Commission of Enquiry into the University of Durban-Westville. On previous occasions I criticised the university on aspects relating to discrimination in staffing and administration which was controlled completely by Whites. We must not bluff ourselves that all is now well at the university. I hope the situation referred to as existing among the student population is a transitional one arising out of the need for adjustment and will be normalised in time. Inter-group understanding and harmony could be fostered only in an atmosphere of harmony which is, after all, conducive to the pursuit of education and learning.

The University of Durban-Westville is the one and only university that offers certain Indian languages, Indian cultural studies and religious courses. Unfortunately these courses are not offered at any other university in South Africa. In a country plagued by legislated race discrimination it is not unnatural for differences, however slight, to manifest themselves and this must be accepted.

In the initial years of integration at universities an attitude characterised by pragmatism should be pursued. This is imperative in our stance that all educational institutions should accommodate all South Africans who fulfil the entrance requirements. That is very necessary. I think all universities should be watched with tremendous interest so that no forces can, to put it bluntly, make a mess of those institutions. There are such forces which work against integration and racial harmony in this country.

A school is not a place where children go to learn in a narrow academic sense. A school should be seen as something more than only a place of academic learning. It should be seen as a community where children do not only become literate and erudite, but where they combine informally to further their wider cultural education and where they acquire certain social values and standards of behaviour towards each other.

All hon members will agree that what is happening among the youth of today is disconcerting.

Thus extra-mural activities are seen as an integral part of education at all levels. By joining informally together to produce a school play or to go on a holiday together, or by learning to take the rough with the smooth on the sports field, it is assumed that children learn to cooperate and to live together in a community. Here they acquire particular values like loyalty, service and sportsmanship which will stand them in good stead in the adult world.

Over the past three years I have suggested and it was agreed that a suitable member of the teaching establishment be appointed to organise the Boy Scout movement in the interests of our youths. The movement’s number has dropped from almost 2 500 to an all-time low of 500 scouts in the entire Indian community of the RSA. In the Black and Coloured groups the number of scouts has grown considerably through the appointment of organisers. I am making a plea here for similar action.

I want to emphasise that to judge the quality of education merely on the rate of passes in the Senior Certificate Examination will be misleading. This must stop. Our education should not be too examination orientated. We want to direct our education to mould a nation of individuals with allround developed personalities.

I do not want it to seem as though I am condemning an hon Minister on this side of the House. [Interjections.]

You are doing a good job!

It is not I that is important—it is my community.

That’s right!

I have to put the cause of my community before myself, otherwise I have no place here. [Interjections.] However, whilst we admit our inadequacies and our shortcomings, let us all go beyond party politics in the interests of education in this country which has done so much for our people.

Mr Chairman, it is always a delight to follow the hon member for Cavendish, because he has this marvellous knack in mid-afternoon of giving us some comic light relief. I appreciate that very much.

Certainly some of the strictures he heaped upon the hon the Minister of Education and Culture are well-justified. Unfortunately, when the hon member for Cavendish was a member of the same party to which the hon the Minister belonged—this was at the time when the hon member for Arena Park, Mr Rajbansi, was the boss…

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

No, Sir, I have no time for questions.

Has the hon member read Hansard?

The hon member can always come back in this debate. The point I was making before he so rudely interrupted me was that at the time, knowing full well what the hon member for Arena Park, Mr Rajbansi, was all about, he left the party under which he was elected and joined the NPP in the expectation of becoming the Minister of Education. At the time he did not make the points which he so admirably made today.

Mr Chairman, is the hon member prepared to take a question?

Order! No, the hon member has already indicated that he will not take a question.

I thought he would take a second question, Mr Chairman. [Interjections.]

Order! No. After this the hon member must not be interrupted while he is speaking.

I am indebted to the Chair. Reference has been made to the teaching of Indian languages. I just want to remind hon members that Zulu will—and this is a solemn promise—become an official language of the RSA within the next few years. [Interjections.] For Heaven’s sake, while the teaching of Indian languages is good and sound, if we want to help our children let us make the teaching of Zulu absolutely imperative. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Allandale made a suggestion that principals should not actually be in the classroom. It so happens that I am related by marriage to a certain lady who has 38 years of experience in the teaching profession, a large part of it as the principal of a school. That person—the daughter of another man to whom I am related by marriage—as a principal insisted that principals should spend a fair amount of time in the classroom so that they can maintain direct contact with the pupils. Of course, educationists have as many disagreements as to the practice of their profession as lawyers and politicians do.

I want to ask the hon the Minister why a further inquiry was not conducted into the disgraceful incident which occurred at a certain school in La Mercy where the principal of the school was alleged to have molested an eleven year-old child. Due to the bullying tactics of a certain inspectress, who was a close personal friend of a certain corrupt politician, that child was bullied and that woman said that child was lying. A gross injustice was committed. Why has the hon the Minister not re-investigated that case departmentally? [Interjections.] I have spoken to the hon the Minister about this. In a criminal charge the onus is beyond reasonable doubt. By way of a trick that rascal got away with it with the help of this inspectress of the House of Delegates’ Department of Education.

The laws of the country allowed it.

That man remained an official in the department. Astonishingly, he was promoted by Mr Rajbansi. That is insufferable.

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Mr Rajbansi, to whom the hon member referred, is still an hon member of this House and I just wish to point that out to him.

Order! That is not a point of order. The hon member for Reservoir Hills may proceed.

I appreciate the fact that the hon member for Mariannhill still regards his boss as being honourable. [Interjections.] When the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council was the Leader of the Official Opposition he strongly, frequently and cogently demanded a full-scale judicial inquiry into the maladministration in the division of education in the Administration: House of Delegates. He is now in the position to have it done and I trust that he will do so. I am sorry that he has not yet taken the necessary steps to do so.

The same hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council gave his word to the Indian community that a full-scale inquiry would be conducted into all the nepotism, irregularities and corruption in terms of which, according to certain calculations which I have, more than 1 100 members of the teaching profession were improperly and immorally retarded when it came to promotions and other people were allowed to jump over their heads.

I understand that when a person has been jumped irregularly it may be difficult to do anything about it, because it means taking it to litigation. However, where people have been kept back immorally, administrative action could be taken to see to it that they are adequately compensated for the injustice done to them. The hon the Minister of the Ministers’ Council knows this. I have spoken to him about this privately and I want to know what the administration of the hon the Minister of Education and Culture has done about it.

In regard to the Odeon Cinema Complex, I want to repeat my plea that if any land owned by the House of Delegates is to be sold, it has to be sold by public auction. We know the pitfalls that exist in the case of private tenders. We know the manipulation that has occurred in the past and we know that such manipulation can occur again. A public auction is the safest, the best and the most profitable system of selling property.

I want to deal with the relationship between the Teachers’ Association of South Africa and the Administration of the House of Delegates. The hon the Minister of Education and Culture of the House of Delegates will confirm that when this unfortunate dispute broke, I went to him and suggested that he invite to his home, on a personal level, the president and deputy president of Tasa, purely as a social gathering. He kindly said he would do so. Having done that, I then sought out the deputy president—I was unable to get the president of Tasa—warned him that an invitation would be forthcoming, and extracted a promise from him that when the invitation came, he would accept it. Why did I do that? I did so because I want to promote harmony between Tasa and the Administration.

Thank you for that.

I did this because if there is disharmony, harm is done to our children. I want to help our children. Unfortunately, what happened was that the national chairman of Solidarity, who is not a member of this House, gave a hectoring lecture to Tasa telling them to keep out of certain activities and stating that he is a professional politician and that he knows politics and they do not know any politics.

What a pity!

Of course, Tasa is an organisation of teachers. They have every right to make political pronouncements if they want to, as long as they do not engage in party politics in an open way.

This man, Mr Ismail Omar, who has never held any elected office, did harm to this process of producing harmony between Tasa and the Administration. I am delighted, therefore, that the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and the hon the Minister took the necessary steps to enter into discussions with Tasa. I will do nothing to harm the burgeoning relationship which I see happening. We must have a good, healthy relationship between the professional organisation of teachers and the Administration, because if that does not exist, I repeat: harm will happen.

I want to know from the hon the Minister why it is that there is an alleged surplus of 130 educators. There will be more coming up at the end of the year. The universal norm for a teacher : pupil ration is 22. In White schools in South Africa it is 18—much better than the position in other countries. I am talking about advanced countries. In the Indian schools, however, the average may be 23, but only if one takes country schools and adds private schools. However, if one takes primary schools in the larger residential areas, the ration is 1:33. That is 50% more than the universal norm. That being the case, I have made a calculation: We have a shortage of something like 2 300 teachers. We need 2 300 more teachers if education is to be provided to our children in the manner in which it ought to be provided. Therefore the hon the Minister must please not tell us that there is a surplus of teachers. What we have at the moment is a shortage of accommodation where it is required. We have a shortage of vacancies for the teachers who ought to be employed. I think the hon the Minister, as a former teacher, will understand that.

However, I am not here only to advance criticism. I want to compliment the hon the Minister on the development of the Phoenix Technical Secondary School. I respectfully do not agree with the hon member for Cavendish that the emergence of Sastri as a technical college is in any way inimical to the interests of the community. The name “Sastri” remains…

On a point of correction, Mr Chairman, I have not made any reference to a technical college.

Order! Will the hon member resume his seat. The hon member for Reservoir Hills may proceed.

The Sastri Technical College is, I believe, going to perform a very useful service, and I trust that it will not remain a technical college only for members of the Indian community. It is centrally situated in a nonresidential area, and it should admit members of all communities. Although the M L Sultan Technikon and the Natal Technikon are near neighbours, a technical college provides services different from those of technikons. There is a considerable number of young people and older people belonging to communities other than the Indian community who are deserving of the facilities of that institution. If any person is denied admission on the grounds of race or colour, that would be a slap in the face of proper education. It would be harmful even to the small Indian community because those in charge will be seen as racists and the community whom they serve will be seen as supporting racial discrimination.

I also want to compliment the hon the Minister and his department for seeing to this kind of activity and I am going to mention the name of Mrs Shah because her name is prominent in a court case. I know that she unfortunately won her particular case on a technicality and I do not blame the administration because lawyers make mistakes. Even judges make mistakes and that is why we have an appellate division. A mistake was made on the part of the legal advisors of the department but there is no reason why a legal mistake cannot be rectified. The facts remain unchanged and on the basis of these facts proper action should be taken.

The fact that there would also no longer be political interference should mean that not even the national chairman of Solidarity should try to give political lectures to teachers or teachers’ organisations. We should have no political interference of any kind.

I want to deal with special education for a moment. Regrettably the private welfare agencies are the ones carrying the principal burden of providing special education for mentally retarded and physically handicapped children, and I am very sorry to say that the department is not providing the proper degree of subsidisation.

I will also not be revealing any secrets when I say that the Welfare Committee of which I have the honour of being a member and which is under the control of the hon the Minister of Health Services and Welfare, is going to recommend that there should be a 90% subsidy and that that subsidy should come from the Department of Education and Culture, not from the Department of Health Services and Welfare.

It is the function of the Department of Education and Culture to see to it that all children are properly provided for. There is no reason whatsoever why pre-primary schools should not be State-aided schools. In most communities in the world pre-primary schools are provided by the State. If the hon the Minister checks he will find that in the Administration: House of Assembly a large number of pre-primary schools are in fact subsidised by the State on a 100% basis.

My hon colleague is going to deal with the question of the Senior Certificate Examination. He will again expose the fraudulent manner in which the previous administration—I am sorry to say under the control of the same hon Minister but under a previous chairman—tried to present the Senior Certificate results by pretending that the matriculation results were much better than they in fact were. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I want to say to the hon member for Reservoir Hills that notwithstanding the fact that the hon the Minister of Education and Culture indicated in the course of his address that the disposal of the Odeon Cinema would be by public tender, I have not forgotten the message the hon member for Reservoir Hills gave us in this House.

I personally believe—having regard for the sad story behind the Odeon issue—that it will be in the public interest and in the interest of this administration to sell this property to the highest bidder by a widely publicised programme which will result in this piece of property being offered to the public and to the highest bidder at an open public auction.

I also listened with interest to the references made by the hon member for Allandale to the problems of teachers who are being posted to the Transvaal towns. I sincerely want to appeal to those hon members who come from the Transvaal and who represent rural towns that unless some kind of assistance is forthcoming, it is going to be extremely difficult to find the teachers one wants to teach, particular subjects for which posts local teachers are obviously not available in the Transvaal. Many of them, therefore, have to come from Natal.

It is necessary that this message is also conveyed to the members of the management committees in the Transvaal. Teachers are important members of the community, irrespective of where they come from. If they are posted to platteland towns, the community, regardless of other considerations, should respect them as teachers and must go out of their way to assist these people. I have received many complaints, and if the teachers do not find accommodation in those areas, the community will ultimately suffer. However, I believe if there is a change of heart on the part of the community and the teachers are received with understanding for the problems they are facing, we will have no difficulty getting teachers to move there. However, for the past five years complaints have been made regularly that the community does not afford them any assistance. If that assistance is not forthcoming, the community will pay the price in the end.

I also want to thank the hon member for Reservoir Hills. We have had discussions on the question of how best we can resolve the Tasa issue and I am glad to say that after the meeting that took place on 9 May and which lasted for six hours, Mr Samuels, the chairman of Tasa, said that it was one of the most fruitful meetings he had ever had with the Administration.

I can tell hon members that we bent over backwards to provide the time and to discuss this matter in detail so that we would have an understanding of their problems and they would have an understanding of our difficulties and that in future we would have the necessary machinery for meaningful consultation between Tasa and the Administration. There was no question of any threats being issued to these people. There is also no question regarding the fact that we can live without a teachers’ association. It is an association that has been working in the interests of the teachers, but if there is no liaison between us it poses difficulties. I believe we have now created the necessary machinery for many matters to be examined and that the liaison will be mutually beneficial to the Administration and the teachers’ association. I am indebted to all those people who made this possible.

I hope Ismail Omar knows about it.

The fact remains that a meeting has taken place and I think the comments of the chairman of that association in this morning’s The Natal Mercury answer any fears that might have prevailed in the hearts of the community or the teaching profession that there was a lack of understanding and sympathy for their aspirations and problems.

As far as promotions are concerned, the hon member for Allandale has complained about what went wrong with promotions. After all, he was the spokesman on education for the NPP, which was the ruling party in this House, but never at any stage did he complain about things being wrong as far as promotions were concerned.

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council a question?

Mr Chairman, I am taking no questions.

The hon member did not complain. He had the opportunity of raising those matters on the floor of the House during the course of a debate. What is more important, he had access to the gentleman who was in control. We have just completed the proceedings of the James Commission and the Administration has taken steps to bring about the necessary adjustments. Unfortunately the court case to which the hon member for Reservoir Hills referred is an indication that one cannot just move in with a broom and sweep out everything. People have the right to go to the courts, and here is a case in point where somebody whose case was widely publicised in the Press and against whom the department acted in a way that it thought fit, ended in court and judgement was given against the Administration. I do not think we want to have the Administration and all its senior officials working on court cases. Then they will not be able to attend to the day-to-day affairs of the Administration in regard to the education of the many thousands of our children.

However, I want to assure hon members—and yesterday we told Tasa this—that when we are presented with information, the kind of information that made the findings of the James Commission possible, we will not hesitate to go to the State President and call for an enquiry. We invite everybody who can give us that kind of information to do so, so that we can act. We want to allay the fears of the community, but at the same time I am aware that steps are being taken to do everything possible in this regard.

I was told that Tasa itself submitted a list of names of persons who believed that they had been unfairly dealt with. All those complaints were thoroughly examined and where there was justification for a change, this was done. This was the case in one out of some 33 or 34 instances. The department will attend to these matters and it will attend to them when they are brought to the department’s notice. We have just taken over, and I can assure hon members that we are concerned.

Mr Chairman, will the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council be prepared to take a question?

I will not be taking any questions.

Indian education is the responsibility of this House. As some hon members said earlier on, the contribution that we made to educate our people is part of our proud history. At this stage we are not going to allow anybody, whether he be an official or a politician, to make a mess of that achievement on the part of the community. I, for one, want to give the assurance that so long as I have any say in this House, I will not hesitate to take corrective measures whenever anybody does anything that goes against the grain of what has been expressed in this House. We want fair play and justice meted out to every member of the teaching profession in this community. He does not have to carry a party badge or canvass votes or hire a Kombi and bring in 200 voters or any such nonsense.

[Inaudible]

Order! Will the hon member Mr Abram please stand. Is the hon member tired of being in this House? [Interjection.] Does he want to leave? At the next interjection or interruption, I will have no alternative but to order the hon member to withdraw from the Chamber.

I bow to your superior knowledge, Sir.

Order! The hon member must resume his seat. The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council may proceed.

This kind of embarrassment should never be meted out to any member of the teaching profession. These things are fresh in the minds of our people. This was extensively reported in the newspapers and we owe it to these persons, who are members of a noble profession, not to be treated in the manner they have been treated in the past.

A teacher has the right to belong to any organisation, to vote for any member of Parliament and to be a member of any party. No politician who holds office in this House will dictate to them where they should be and what they ought to be doing. I want to give this assurance to the members of the teaching fraternity.

Reference was made by the hon the Minister to the progress that has been registered in recent times with regard to both technical and vocational education. I want to repeat what I have said here before, namely that it is not going to be profitable for the community. [Interjections ] If there is another debate going on, I can stop so that someone else can stand up. [Interjections.]

Order! There will be no further interruptions. The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council may proceed.

Mr Chairman, vocational technical training is near and dear to my heart, because many years ago I pioneered a move to make it possible for our young people with vocational and technical training to find employment at a time when all kinds of restrictions had been imposed in this regard.

Now that we are training these young men and women in larger numbers at many institutions throughout the country, I believe that we as politicians have a responsibility to make a contribution towards ensuring on the one hand that there is ongoing adaptation in the curriculum for the training of our people, as well as emphasis on technical vocational training where there is a demand but also to market our product on the other. In this connection I received a halfhearted document which gave me no real clues as to what is happening. I want to say that I believe that the time has come to employ a person who has the ability to market the products of our institutions for technical and vocational education, on a full-time basis. This person should be visiting all those people who advertise for artisans.

When one picks up the Sunday papers—in fact, hon members should have a look at today’s Citizen—one sees advertisements for fitters and turners, electricians and instrument technicians. There are advertisements from dozens of companies. We must not read them and pass them over. We should get our men to go to these places and tell them that we are training young people and that we will have people available for employment.

I want to be very, very hard. I say that no man should become a principal of a technical high school or any technical institution if he does not have the ability to market his product. This is absolutely important in the formative years of our training. That is what Dr Alex Solomon did. He did not train people at the M L Sultan College, give them a certificate and send them out on a walk. He went to factories and establishments and told them that he was training people.

Is that being done by principals of our technical high schools? If it is not being done then those principals have to be told about this. They must find the time to invite employers for a cup of tea at their institutions. They should show them what they are doing there. They should start marketing in a small way. I see that the officials are present here. If they do not understand what I am saying, I shall be pleased to meet with them and explain what I want done. It is useless building institutions and spending money training people, knowing full well that there are problems, and not doing something to resolve the impasse which we face in these areas.

There are a lot of employment opportunities in the Transvaal. It will require the combined assistance of the division of education and the Ministry of Housing, not only to direct these people into new areas where they can find employment, but at the same time to provide them with accommodation. This can only be done through consultation with potential employers and co-operation between the Ministry of Education and Culture and the Ministry of Housing. I want to recommend to these gentlemen who are in control that we must talk about this on that basis.

We read about the shortage of skilled personnel in the newspapers, but we know that we have reached the stage where we are training these people in adequate numbers. It is important that they be marketed, otherwise we will forever read about the shortage of skilled artisans when we have plenty of them walking the streets, because nobody has assisted them. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I wonder whether I should be entering this debate to counteract rhetoric, or whether I should confine myself to what, in a sense, has been the Budget of my colleague, the hon the Minister of Education and Culture.

Just make some simple, sensible statements!

Much has been said by hon members who have contributed thus far in relation to what had happened in previous years, from 1984 to the end of 1988.

Where were you then?

I was around!

The hon member for Allandale raised the matter of child abuse in schools. My colleagues in the Ministers’ Council and myself are very vigilant on the issue of child abuse which is prevalent throughout the country. It is not only confined to members of the Indian community. At a national level, with the help of the hon the Minister of National Health and Population Development, discussions are taking place and committees have been set up to decide how one should address this problem.

The hon member for Allandale also spoke of nepotism with regard to the promotion of teachers in the past. We are fully realistic and know what was done in the past by an hon member who was the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and whose function was not that of the Minister of Education and Culture.

The James Commission has very clearly set out the whole issue and has found that the former Chairman of the Ministers’ Council, in collusion with certain officials, in a highly irregular way interfered with the Department of Education and Culture behind the backs of the hon the Minister of Education and Culture and the Chief Executive Director of Education. That has come out very prominently in the report of the James Commission and therefore the hon member for Allandale’s reference to nepotism and favouritism is not applicable to the present Ministers’ Council.

Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister referred to the James Commission. Would the hon the Minister concede that I did not refer to any particular political party or to his party and that the possibility exists that the hon the Minister of Education and Culture was a bit too weak then and now?

I have no difficulty with the question the hon member has put to me. He did not refer to any political party, but the fact is that what was done, was done to appease hon members of the political party to which the hon member for Allandale belonged. [Interjections.] That is the truth. There is no getting away from that.

I also agree that the very same person who was the Minister of Education and Culture at that time presently holds that position. However, in my opinion it was done behind the back of the hon the Minister of Education and Culture. I hope I have allayed the hon member for Allandale’s misconception or perception of what has happened thus far with regard to the nepotism and favouritism in relation to promotions.

I am just as concerned as hon members in this House, because as the Minister of the Budget I am responsible for supplying my colleagues in the Ministers’ Council with a budgeted amount that will meet their requirements. Therefore I would like to see that the taxpayers’ money that has been voted, is spent judiciously and in the proper manner.

The hon member for Allandale also spoke about the medical aid scheme of teachers. In this year’s Budget Estimates I increased the contribution of the House of Delegates to Sanitas by 45%. That is a big increase, but I cannot prescribe to the medical scheme how much they should pay towards the medical expenses of their members. They are the decision-makers.

The hon member for Allandale touched on another important issue, namely the booksellers. Up to 1965 there were just two Indian booksellers in Natal, namely Gabriels and Raymond Brothers or Raman Khan. After the take-over of Indian education by the then Minister of Indian Affairs, the then Director of Education allocated the acquiring of Indian schoolbooks to certain accredited booksellers of the Booksellers’ Association.

The Booksellers’ Association was a closed shop. I had the nasty experience that it was a prejudicial body which did not accept, as it should have, booksellers of colour as members. As a result of repeated representations by the then Executive of the SA Indian Council and as a result of agitation by the Indian booksellers and a fair amount of publicity in the Press as to why the Indian booksellers were not given the opportunity to serve their schools, it was then decided that the Director of Indian Education at the time would allow certain Indian booksellers to supply schoolbooks.

An Allocations Committee was then appointed and this committee performed its task until such times as the interference by the former Chairman of the Ministers’ Council as to who should get a bigger chunk, and why. That is where nepotism, favouritism and corruption crept in. We therefore cannot fault the Allocations Committee as such but it was under the influence of the former Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. The James Commission found quite rightly that there had been interference by the then Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. In collusion particularly with the chairman of the Allocations Committee, favouritism was experienced.

I agree that the Indian booksellers must in no way be prejudiced because of the doings of two men. We cannot ignore the service given by the Indian booksellers to Indian schools over the years. In terms of what we have suggested to the State Tender Board we will see to it that justice is done.

How?

We are in the process of planning how we will do it.

Tell us.

At this stage I cannot do that because it is subject to approval by the State Tender Board. As soon as it is approved by proper agreement, we will look at how the allocation with regard to the supply of books to booksellers will be made.

I now come to the hon member for Cavendish who is now sitting in the Chair. [Interjections.] The terms of reference of the James Commission were not that narrow. They did not only refer to hon members in the House of Delegates but went far beyond this House. Whatever the hon member for Cavendish had wanted to say he should have brought to the attention of the James Commission. The James Commission certainly would have made a full inquiry into grievances and allegations brought to them by any person in relation to any matter concerning the administration and the officials of the Department of Education and Culture.

Why did you not make him Minister?

I want to say to the hon member for Reservoir Hills that I agree. I want a further commission of inquiry. Tasa agreed that if there is a further commission of inquiry in addition to the James Commission of Inquiry they will be only too happy to appear before it. However, the common requirement for any commission or committee of inquiry is specific reasons for such an inquiry. [Time expired.]

Mr Speaker, so far everything in this debate has been revolving around the James Commission of Enquiry and its report. Perhaps it is appropriate to ask at this stage, since hon members on that side of the House are in control, why the report of the James Commission has not been debated in this House.

We talk so much about providing evidence for another enquiry. The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council and the hon the Minister of the Budget indicated a short while ago that they would institute a commission of enquiry. On 7 March I moved a notice of motion which reads as follows:

1. (a) the promotion of teachers;
2. (b) the placement of teachers;
3. (c) the employment of qualified teachers;
4. (d) the confirmation of temporary teachers in permanent posts;
5. (e) maladministration within the Department of Education and Culture in the Administration; and
6. (f) the role of teachers in local and national political issues, particularly in elections,

the committee to be appointed under the chairmanship of the former Director of Education, Mr G Krog, with representatives appointed by the Teachers’ Association of South Africa and the Ministers’ Council and the committee to be empowered to take evidence and call for papers.

If they are so sincere why was this motion never debated? It was moved on 7 March. It is of no use giving assurances in this House and saying that any politician or any official in the Department of Education and Culture who interferes, will not be viewed in a favourable light. Why was that motion not debated? In fact, it appears as if no motion from this side of the House is to be debated in this House. That is political corruption and that is being condoned by hon members on that side of the House.

They come here and say that they will institute a commission of enquiry if there is evidence and so on. However, there is sufficient evidence and we have asked for an enquiry.

Order! The hon member is not allowed to allege that any hon member in this House is guilty of or party to political corruption. The hon member must withdraw that.

Mr Speaker, I refer to a case which has…

Order! The hon member must withdraw his reference to hon members being involved in political corruption.

I withdraw it, Sir.

Order! Thank you, the hon member may proceed.

I refer to a case where I posed a question to the hon the Minister of Education and Culture with regard to the marking of examination scripts. That particular issue will be dealt with by my colleague the hon member for Lenasia East. I am just a little bit disturbed by the reply given by the hon the Minister. He considers that an unpardonable injustice has been committed, not only against the chief executive director, but also against the image of his department.

Reference has been made time and again to the James Commission of Enquiry. I agree that in its report the James Commission did say the hon former Chairman of the Ministers’ Council is a “mean-minded bully”. However, I want to say that he is not the only “mean-minded bully” in the Administration: House of Delegates.

However, you admit he is one?

Of course he was one. He still is one, I admit that.

But he is still your leader!

However, there are many more “mean-minded bullies”.

That is right!

Of course he was ruthless in his pursuit of power.

And you accept that?

All politicians should be ruthless in their pursuit of power. If they are not, they should sell peanuts in the zoo, because then they do not have the makings of politicians. [Interjections.]

We do not want to finish up where he finished up.

We shall end up feeding him peanuts! [Interjections.]

On 25 April I put the question to the hon the Minister of Education and Culture whether employees of his department received any invitation from the Environmental Evaluation Unit of the University of Cape Town. The Minister replied that in a letter dated 7 March they had received such an invitation to the course "Natural resources, decision-making and conflict management”. In another part of his reply he said that the department nominated a chief superintendent of education to attend that course.

I have a copy of that invitation. It calls for two people from the Department of Education and Culture of the Administration: House of Delegates to attend at a subsidised rate of R600 per person.

However, somebody took the decision not to send the person who was recommended by the University of Cape Town’s Department of Environment Evaluation Unit and substituted another person, despite the recommendations made by the Chief Director: Control.

That is interference.

That is political interference. That is being a mean-minded bully.

You know what that man is. [Interjections.]

I say this because the Chief Director: Control in the Education Department says that in preference to the person who was recommended…

Do you know what his name is?

He is no relation of mine!

This is not in the best interests of our department or in the national interest. However, despite that, a decision was made…

Mr Speaker, may I ask the hon member whether he is referring to Mrs Shah, his wife? [Interjections.]

I am referring to Mrs Shah, but that Mrs Shah lives in Durban; I live in Lenasia. She is no relation of mine!

Despite the recommendations that were made, in particular by Prof Fuggle, these recommendations were cast aside. Somebody else who has absolutely no knowledge of this particular subject and who admits to that, has been recommended to attend.

Shame!

The hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council has given us the assurance that there will be no interference by officials or politicians. Is this in keeping with his practice? I welcome the assurance he has given us, but I do not want to read out whatever is here, because it may embarrass certain officials, and I have no intention of doing that. However, I have the copies of those letters here in these people’s own handwriting—copies of those letters that went to and fro between Cape Town and Durban.

I have no intention of embarrassing anyone. All I want to say is that if we talk about corruption and sets of values, we must not apply two sets of values. When Solidarity was not in power they had a certain set of values, and now that Solidarity is in power, they have a separate set of values. They must be consistent in their thinking. If they want to stamp out corruption and if they want clean administration, then let them do it from bumper to bumper.

Order! Will the hon member for Lenasia Central assist me by explaining to me what he understands by his reference to a “mean-minded bully”?

Sir, I am quoting from the report of the James Commission.

Order! I want to know from the hon member what he understands by that term.

My own interpretation is that it means somebody who is wicked-minded, powerful and manipulative in his actions.

Order! The hon member must withdraw that remark. I shall certainly not allow it in this House.

I withdraw it, Sir.

Mr Chairman, I must say that I really enjoyed this debate this afternoon until the last speaker. I think he was totally confused and he contradicted himself. He said that Solidarity has different values. Let me, however, remind that hon member that members on the Solidarity side were outspoken in condemning what was wrong. We are not playing politics here. We are in the majority; we are in the ruling party, as they call it.

How did you get the majority? [Interjections.]

I do not take note of interjections like that.

I should like to make it very clear that Solidarity is not taking part. The hon member for Cavendish made his point very clear. However, we are interested in the welfare of Indian education and as such I will do everything in my power to see that it is done along the right lines—even if I have to contradict the hon the Minister who belongs to my party and tell him certain things. I will do it with conviction because I was in the profession for 32 years. I enjoyed my teaching and I was dedicated to it.

Maybe you should go back!

Perhaps the hon member could come to my classroom and I could teach him one or two things.

I have known teachers in the profession who are dedicated and who have spent their entire lives giving of their best to educate our children. However, what has happened in the last four years is a disaster, and then the hon member stands here and says this! He was in cahoots with and shared the same platform as the former hon Chairman of the Ministers’ Council.

I still do!

He made outrageous statements and he is again trying to score political points in this House.

Mr Speaker, I propose to deal with this particular Vote, Education and Culture in the House of Delegates in the following categories: Compulsory education; teacher evaluation and promotions; teacher transfers; the Std 10 examinations; provision of educational aids—referring to textbooks; and sport. I hope the limited time accorded to me is sufficient.

The hon the Minister of National Education expressed the view in his Budget speech that exit points in our education should be standards 4 and 7. I would like to refer to paragraph 4.8.1(c)(i) on pages 30 and 31 of the De Lange Report:

In actual fact nine years compulsory education means that the child will leave at the end of standard 7 if he does not fail. After nine years of compulsory education the pupil is 15 years old and at that age the compulsory education ends. A minimum of six years compulsory school attendance means the exit point is at the end of standard 4. Compulsory education is determined on educational grounds.

Is that from Dewey?

It is a White Paper on education—the HSRC’s De Lange Report.

The hon member should read Dewey and see what he says.

It is also determined from factors such as funds, staff facilities and the general and particular manpower needs of the country. Perhaps the reason for the statement by the hon the Minister of National Education is the present economic downturn in the country. It is strange that the De Lange recommendation is being implemented steadily without any in-depth analysis having been conducted by the Department of Education or the HSRC.

The wisdom of such a proposal must be examined by all parties concerned. In the Government’s acceptance of the De Lange recommendation, provision has been made for the introduction of these exit points when parent communities are in favour thereof. I want to emphasise the point that they can only enforce it when the parent communities are in favour of it.

This matter must be given serious consideration as it could have far-reaching implications—it could affect the whole community. I want to ask the hon the Minister if he could go into this matter and see how it affects our Indian education.

On the question of teacher evaluation and promotion, stories are circulating that all is not well in the system of evaluation and that the same methods or procedures in the assessment of teachers are being adopted as in the past. Even Tasa is disgruntled about resolving this problem and I understand that one of the principal issues in the confrontation with that organisation concerns the assessment and placement of teachers in promotion posts; hence the call by Tasa for a commission of enquiry.

There are many rumours about this in the corridors. Bad habits die hard. We suspect that even at this juncture the ghost of the past and of a politician permeate the corridors of the department. We need to address the problem to allay fears and rumours which could lead to suspicion and frustration. In this respect I want to exhort the hon the Minister to accept Tasa on the Placement Committee as observers so that they can be informed first hand regarding the procedures. I say this because we do not want any doubts or suspicions now that we have embarked on being forthright, honest and sincere in our evaluation system. I do not think we should have anything to hide.

Regarding teacher transfers, I know that much harm has been done. It was said here that personnel in the department as well as politicians have favoured certain applicants. This has been a practice. This anomaly must be put right. I suggest that the hon the Minister looks into the matter, especially regarding the placing of teachers. For example, a senior primary teacher is asked to take a senior secondary class. How can a junior primary art teacher, trained in art, specialising in infant art, be asked to cope with a senior secondary syllabus? A Std 4 English teacher has to teach Afrikaans to Std 7 pupils. A mathematics teacher has to teach physics. This sort of placement affects the teachers greatly. There is widespread concern about this, because it can have many effects on the teacher’s performance in the classroom, besides his rating could be jeopardised. The quality of education is bound to suffer as incompetent teachers, through no fault of their own, have to teach pupils who are used to better tuition by specialists. Now they have to listen to some other teacher who is not competent. It places the teacher in an embarrassing situation.

The other point concerns the long delays in the placement of teachers. This is a reflection of inefficiency in the department, more especially when we are living in a computer age. Surely information about teachers could be programmed and stored so that one could find out which teacher is available and at what moment in time. The hon the Minister must examine the efficiency, honesty and integrity of the personnel in the staffing section. If need be, the former personnel who were transferred from this section have to be brought back. I refer to persons such as Mr S C Naidoo, who was mentioned by the hon member for Cavendish, and also the Verasamys who ran the department so efficiently. This section needs a complete revamp.

Regarding matric results, I appeal to the hon the Minister that my comment should not be construed as derogatory. When I make statements about the matric results it is with the intention of improving Indian education and not to represent a facade or misconstrue things and give the wrong impression. It is all very well to crow about the matric results, as some politicians have done.

On page 12 of the House of Delegates’ annual report the results are reflected, and of the matric pupils in 1988—there were 13 212 entries to the examinations—95,12% passed. Matric exemption examination entries totalled 7 455 and 72,39% passed. This means nothing. How many pupils passed the Senior Certificate examinations? What about the quality of the passes? What about the drop-out rate? What about the absenteeism? The general opinion is that there is an over-emphasis on the matric results; they are purely political statistics.

In the past.

Yes, I will qualify that by saying that it was in the past and that it is not necessarily the case at present. However, this received widespread publicity. Good wine needs no bush. The publicity given to the matric results reminds me of the theme song of Annie get your gun: Anything you can do, I can do better.

Thousands of students with senior certificates come to a dead end because they cannot pursue their studies or find suitable employment. They are not even trained in the technical skills needed by industrialists. I listened to the compassionate plea by the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council this afternoon, and I agree with him on this, namely that technical schools should cater for vocational training, and before this is done, jobs have to be available.

As far as the provision of educational aids is concerned, I ask the hon the Minister why schools are restricted from purchasing textbooks and equipment from the source of their choice. This is the time of free enterprise and deregulation and schools could bargain in a competitive world and get more for their money. After all, schools work on an allocation system. Why this red tape? Why do they have to oblige the department? In terms of the free enterprise system they should be given the choice to buy wherever they can get the best possible rates.

Lastly, I come to sport. I ask the question: How many secondary schools have no specialist physical education instructors, and why not? It is common knowledge that primary schools’ physical education teachers are taken away to fill shortfalls in the secondary schools. I can say a lot about sport in Indian schools, but this is one anomaly. I want to say to the hon the Minister, even if it means getting expert coaches from the private sector, we should employ them, and not only teachers with certain academic qualifications.

What about ex-referees? There is one that is looking for a job.

Yes, sure! They would do a very find job, but I am only afraid they may corrupt the masses there! However, I think sport training in the primary school is very important because it provides a nursery. It is no use to start at the top. One has to start at the bottom. One has to get the nursery going, before one can start training people in the secondary schools because they cannot specialise in something they are not suitably trained for. It is a waste of good effort, time, and money to concentrate on high schools because they are high schools, where there is ample opportunity to concentrate on the primary schools. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, listening to the various hon members today, I heard them mention commissions of enquiry. I firstly want to ask a simple question. The hon the Minister has mentioned the recurrence of malpractices here in the report on his Vote. That means he agreed that there were malpractices in his administration. I take it for granted that this is the case.

In response to a question by the hon member for Lenasia Central which appeared on the Question Paper of Tuesday, 14 March, the hon the Minister of Education and Culture provided this House with a lengthy statement. The question which was raised was in connection with the re-marking of a script. I wish to inform hon members that the hon the Minister did not take this House into his confidence. His concluding remarks raised some questions. His concluding remarks were, and I quote:

The last sentence is the crux of the matter. I think it is high time that the hon the Minister should answer these questions.

Firstly, if the investigation carried out by the Department of Budgetary and Auxiliary Services was of such a highly confidential nature, how was it possible that on a perceived anticipation of vindictiveness, the hon the Minister and some of his colleagues submitted the report and all relevant documents to the James Commission? Why did they part with such secret documents if it was a secret? Now the hon the Minister hides behind the commission, claiming that it made no findings on the matter of the re-marking of the script.

I want to take hon members into my confidence by disclosing that I have received a copy of the report which was referred to by the hon the Minister. Before I read out the relevant damning findings and extracts, I want to allege in all fairness that the hon the Minister’s assertion that the Ministers’ Council—with which he obviously concurs—had found no irregularities in the remarking of the script, is not in harmony with the findings of the investigation. I believe that the hon the Minister has wilfully misled Parliament and owes hon members an apology.

Order! The hon member cannot allege that any other hon member wilfully misled Parliament. The hon member must please withdraw that.

I withdraw it, sir. At the same time I would like to clarify that point. [Interjections.] I did withdraw it. You just shut up and let me carry on with my speech!

Order! The hon member is not entitled to use the word “wilfully”, but for the rest he can proceed.

Thank you very much, Sir. The hon the Minister has misled Parliament and owes hon members an apology. Judging by the findings, I believe that the James Commission either neglected to report on this matter, or merely concentrated on nailing a single individual. To my mind this is a travesty of justice. [Interjections.]

Who wrote that speech for you?

You would be surprised! I can take all the time I need and write my own speech. Sir, I wish to read from the report on findings of investigations into the re-marking of examination scripts, and I quote:

This, Sir, was written by the moderator. I wish to quote further:

Why do you not say it outside the House? We shall sue you!

The official cannot reply.

Why can the officials not reply through the hon the Minister?

Say that outside the House!

This is strong language and cannot just be brushed aside loosely.

Mr Speaker, will the hon member take a question from me?

My time is limited, Sir. I shall not take any questions. [Interjections.] I shall take questions after I have finished. How can the hon the Minister claim that this kind of remark does not convey impropriety of some degree?

I now come to the external moderator’s finding which is contained in paragraph 9.1 of the report.

I quote:

Mr Speaker, on a point of order: This document is still under investigation by the SAP and therefore I say that it is sub judice. It was supposed to be a secret document but it has leaked out and I would like to know how it got into the hands of the hon member for Lenasia East. [Interjections.]

Order! That is not a point of order. The hon member made the point that the document is sub judice and that reading or disclosing anything from it is not permissible. In my opinion it does not fall within the ambit of the sub judice rule. The hon member may proceed.

I continue quoting:

What did the hon the Minister say in his statement? He said that both the internal and external moderators arrived at the favourable decision that the pupil had passed the examination. However, the hon the Minister failed to tell us of the external moderator’s reservations. It places a very big question mark behind the whole matter and provides us with food for thought. Why did he not disclose it? The question was put to him here in Parliament. Why did he not disclose it to us? Why did he make us believe that there was absolute unanimity without reservations being recorded?

In paragraph 10.1 the following is said, and I quote:

[Time expired.]

Mr Speaker, I want to thank hon members who have contributed to the debate this afternoon. In doing so, 1 want to place on record my thanks to hon members who expressed their appreciation for the work done by my Ministry and my department. At the same time I will answer those hon members who raised points of criticism against the department. I will justify the department’s actions.

I would like to start with the hon member who spoke last. I want to make the situation clear. Allegations of the re-marking of scripts are brought up from time to time to besmirch the name of a particular candidate. I am aware where this emanates from. I hope hon members are not being manipulated from outside. Words such as “raises suspicion” and various selective quotations remind us of a person who used to be in this House. [Interjections.] This matter was fully answered in this House.

It was a cover-up!

I want to tell the hon member that this matter was fully investigated by the former Chairman of the Ministers’ Council. It was debated in the Ministers’ Council and we came to the unanimous decision that there was no substance in the matter and that it should be shelved for all time. [Interjections.]

Did you read the report?

The article was published in The Weekly Newspaper, dated 24 February. I gave a full report of the whole matter. It is because she is the daughter of the Chief Executive Director of the Department of Education and Culture that this matter is being highlighted.

Mr Speaker, may I ask the hon the Minister whether he has read the report? From what I have heard and from the little bit that I read this afternoon, would the hon the Minister concede that no allegation is made against the Executive Director? The allegation is made against Mr Khadaroo.

Yes, but certain opinions can be held. There are opinions and opinions.

It is rhetoric.

Yes, it is rhetoric. Did the hon member read the latter portion of the report where the name of Prof Grobbelaar is mentioned? Even he gave the answer that the candidate would in any case have passed.

Do you want me to read the full report? [Interjections.]

I now turn to the hon member for Allandale. I am not going to say Hell and Dale as some hon members said earlier. [Interjections.] The hon member has a fairly good knowledge of education but I think he has been out of touch with education for a long time and is becoming a bit “rusty”.

So is the hon the Minister!

I want to tell him that we have taken note of various matters he has raised. We have taken note of those matters, but there are a few matters which I wish to highlight. In respect of the promotion of CS educators the hon member has not only been vague, but he has generalised to such an extent that it is impossible to respond to some of his questions. I invite him to submit substantiated evidence so that action might be taken.

I have been hearing that for four years.

However, I also feel free to publicly announce that the hon member has failed to substantiate the wild allegations he has made in Parliament. The hon member has never substantiated his allegations. What baffles me, is that he chose to wait for this debate to raise matters which could have been resolved if he had referred this either to me, and through me to the department, or directly to the department. If he had done so these matters could have been remedied.

You chose not to give us the report timeously.

The hon member mentioned child abuse. With regard to that matter I think it concerns every individual in this country and elsewhere. I think communities are becoming very much aware of this malady from which certain people are suffering. If the hon member will give us the details, we shall act promptly and decisively as we usually do when cases of this nature are reported to us. If the hon member has not reported it and is not going to report it, he will be failing in his duty.

As far as the housing subsidy is concerned, I think the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council adequately answered that housing subsidies as well as housing for teachers in the various areas where we are having difficulty, are being investigated. He mentioned that the Transvaal teachers in particular are having difficulty with housing. If they are not properly housed they cannot perform their duties adequately.

Let your hon Minister of Housing build houses for them!

As far as Sanitas and pension funds are concerned, those matters are receiving adequate attention.

The issue of remedial classes was also mentioned earlier on. Remedial classes are being established at all schools. As far as possible and where staff is available for remedial classes these classes are being established. Of the 185 072 pupils in primary schools in 1989, 3 713 pupils—that is about 2%—are given attention in the form of remedial classes. The department has given adequate attention where the need has arisen.

The percentage of pupils in our schools needing such attention is being given such remediation. Such remedial classes have not been established at all schools, but it is the intention to do so.

The hon member raised some other matters as well. As far as the promotion of CS educators is concerned, the hon member has not only been vague, but he has generalised to such an extent that it is impossible to respond. I invite him to submit substantiated evidence so that action can be taken. However, I must also…

Mr Speaker, will the hon the Minister concede that over the past four years I have been harping on the particular subject of promotions and he took no notice of my pleas?

I must respond by saying that the hon member did so without substantiated evidence. Any evidence given anywhere without substantiation is of no value whatsoever.

I must also be free to publicly announce that the hon member has failed to substantiate any of the wild allegations he makes in Parliament. At no time has he responded to my call, which has been to bring me the cases with substantiation and I will attend to them through my administration. It is one thing to make a noise in Parliament, and another to be able to put substantiated facts before us.

I now turn to the hon member for Cavendish. He has given us a well-balanced picture of education, and I thank him for that, although the balance is tipped on the unsatisfactory side as far as he is concerned. I want to tell him that Sastri College, which is at the moment a technical school, is very well received, and that in the future it is intended that Sastri College will revert to the normal high school that it was some time ago.

Hear, hear!

It is programmed for 1994.

May I ask the hon the Minister, since this is quite a contentious matter, what made it necessary to change the date for the change of status of Sastri College from 1991, as indicated by him recently, to 1994? Is it to anger the community at large and cause them to criticise the House of Delegates more vociferously?

Mr Speaker, the hon member is unaware that economic circumstances prescribe that we be more careful in utilising capital investments. For the purpose of the record it is important to know that Sastri College can continue as a technical high school.

[Inaudible.]

To build a new technical school requires enough funds. By 1994 we expect to have enough funds to go on with that building. [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

As regards the call by the hon member for Cavendish for a commission of enquiry, I say to him, as I would to any other hon member, that if he submits any substantiated complaints I can assure him that they will be taken up. Our leader said earlier on that if there are properly substantiated complaints, they will be taken up.

Will the hon the Minister take a reasonable question, Mr Speaker? In order to resolve the matter, would the hon the Minister accede to holding an internal investigation into many of these matters? If that is done there is no need for a commission of enquiry as I see it.

To answer that I reiterate that if the hon member had listened to the speech made by the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council earlier on, he would have heard that we said to Tasa, the Teachers’ Association of South Africa, that if they have genuine reasons for an enquiry into education they should please submit them to us and substantiate them. They must be substantiated, because we have the experience that the James Commission threw out lots of evidence without substantiation. Therefore my advice to the hon member is please to do just that.

I also want to inform him that not one issue submitted to the James Commission by Tasa has been reported on by the hon judge. Even the Secretary-General of Tasa conceded that the allegations could have been substantiated, but they failed to do so. The hon member is also aware that the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council has stated that of the 35 cases which Tasa submitted for investigation and which the Department of Education investigated, in only one case were they able to put the matter right. The rest, because of lack of substantiation, fell through.

[Inaudible.]

At the meeting with Tasa on 9 May a few days ago, this was discussed fully and the association appeared to be absolutely satisfied with the investigations and the results made known to them. Let me repeat that no substantiated allegation will go uninvestigated. If hon members have anything which they can substantiate with facts, we will look into it.

I now come to the hon member for Reservoir Hills. I want to thank him for the compliments he paid our administration and also for the remarks he made with regard to education in general. However, there are a few points on which he would like to be enlightened and I shall do so.

My report mentioned that certain Indian languages are taught in our schools and they start from standard 2 to standard 6 this year. He mentioned that Zulu should be offered as well and that it will become a very important language. I fully agree with him. There is no doubt that Zulu is one of the languages which we should teach.

I would like to inform him that Zulu is already offered in our schools as a school subject. The dilemma we are in is that there are unfortunately very few takers. If there were enough takers we could get the required staff for it. It is therefore up to some hon members in this House to assist us in finding a solution for this matter.

You can make it a non-examination subject!

The hon member also mentioned pre-primary education. I would like to tell him that although the provision of pre-primary education is not included in the national funding formula for education, this department is in fact providing funds for the establishment of preprimary classes at its existing primary schools.

Teachers are being specially trained to work with the children in the pre-primary classes provided that they satisfy the admission criteria. Pupils of other race groups are being admitted to our pre-primary classes as well. Here I would however like to sound a word of warning that pupils of other race groups will only be admitted from the pre-primary to the primary school situation if they are able to fulfil certain requirements.

Two were rejected!

An hon member has interjected that there were people who were rejected. I would like to tell the hon member that we have a system under which members from other race groups are admitted. I put it forward in this House and I think hon members are aware of the conditions under which admission to other race groups is made available.

In reply again to the hon member for Reservoir Hills, I want to inform him that at the last count—in fact today—only 107 teachers are still unemployed.

That is too many!

He will appreciate that, as we had nearly 1 000 qualified teachers and a downturn as far as pupils are concerned, we did very well indeed. I can assure him they will all be employed.

He also mentioned the pupil : teacher ratio and for his information I would like to read to him the progress which has been made in this respect. In 1975 it was 29,6 for primary schools and 21,5 for secondary schools. In 1976 it was 29,6 for primary schools and 20,2 for secondary schools, and in 1977 it was 29,6 for primary schools and 20,2 for secondary schools. It dwindles to less and less pupils per teacher until we come to 1988—if it would satisfy the hon member if I can skip the various years. At the moment the pupil : teacher ratio is one teacher to 23,9 pupils for primary schools and one teacher to 18 pupils in secondary schools.

Is that the average?

That is the average. Of course in some schools there are large numbers of pupils to one teacher. By comparison, in smaller country schools we have smaller units, even smaller than 18 or 23 pupils. The figure therefore reflects the average.

Mr Speaker, will the hon the Minister agree that, because the numbers in country schools are very small, if one takes the average, there is a statistical distortion and that he must therefore give us the figures applicable to schools in high-density population areas?

Mr Speaker, I would not agree that that is a distortion. It is not. If one gets the average, it is the average. There is no distortion.

You do not understand.

I do understand. An average can never be distorted. I do understand the fact that you are talking about country schools and urban schools.

Do you know that you can lie with figures?

Yes. The average here is correct. With these words I thank the hon member for Reservoir Hills.

I also want to thank my colleague, the hon the Chairman of the Ministers’ Council… [Time expired.]

Mr Speaker, when we closely examine Indian education, it is noteworthy that when it was controlled by the provincial authorities, the standard of facilities was not high. There was a constant cry for better facilities and the general upliftment and improvement of various sectors of the education system.

Then came the Indian Education Act when education was taken over by the central Government, which attempted—and I believe it succeeded to a great extent—to improve the education facilities of our community. Programmes were introduced to build many new schools and old schools were either taken over and improved or children were moved to newly established schools. Sporting facilities were also provided at new schools, and improvements were carried out at old schools. It was a far cry from the 1950s when children of the age of 9 and 10 years could not be accepted in schools because of the shortage of space or the unavailability of teachers, which was far more acute in rural areas. Indian education under the new system was run by the Department of Indian Affairs, the Director of Indian Education and the Minister of Education.

Then came the saga of the transfer of Indian education to the control of the South African Indian Council. It was a grave mistake by the then authorities, for which the Indian community has paid a big price and will continue to pay for some time to come, until at least some of the consequences of the misdeeds are either rectified or totally removed. Under the chairmanship of the South African Indian Council, which enjoyed virtually complete power to manipulate certain members of the teaching fraternity with favours, later using them for its own power base and political benefits, this ploy brought chaos to the teaching profession and while a few cronies of the Raj may have benefited, many who qualified for promotion or consideration were sidestepped.

In 1983 there was a hue and cry by parents and teachers alike to keep politics out of education. In this regard the hon member for Cavendish took the lead by resigning from the South African Indian Council, and most of us believed that he did that out of principle to protest at what was happening there under the then chairman of that body. Only later did we come to realise that it was not because of interference in education that the hon member for Cavendish resigned, but because he was not given the appointment to lead education himself.

He is in your party now.

Oh yes. We are democrats! [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, will the hon member take a question?

No, we will discuss it later.

Where did you get that information?

The hon member for Reservoir Hills said 1 100 persons were deprived of promotion, but let me tell this House that Solidarity has made a solemn promise to the teaching fraternity, and to the community at large, that whoever, irrespective of whichever member of the teaching fraternity, has climbed ladders without merit, will be brought down faster than he went up. We will keep to that promise and make sure that whatever has been done to the teaching fraternity will be rectified. It cannot be done overnight and those who say that nothing has been done are not truthful. The machinery will be set in motion and matters will be corrected, because whatever went wrong over the years we will not be able to correct in a few days’ time. We will show that we will correct matters. This goes not only for the teaching fraternity, but also for housing and land deals. All the relevant matters will be brought up and investigated.

With regard to the placing of teachers in various provinces and schools, it has come to our attention that sometimes a history teacher travels from Port Shepstone to Umzinto, whereas another history teacher travels from Umzinto to Port Shepstone. I think the department has accepted the fact that wherever possible, a teacher should be accommodated closer to his home for various reasons, such as savings, a better family life and so on. These are matters that should be looked at very closely so that the disruption of the family life due to having to travel to another town can be eliminated.

I think academic education is good, but because of the direction in which the country is moving now, and considering the lack of suitable jobs in the academic field, it is necessary that technical education should be the more important side of our educational approach. We must bear in mind that our country’s economy needs foreign exchange and technically oriented people. We have enough raw materials. Therefore, instead of exporting raw materials, we should enter the field of exporting the finished product. Many industrialists from Taiwan and various Eastern bloc countries are visiting us. They are interested in creating industries and they will need technically trained people. I believe we should be looking at that field of education.

Mr Chairman, I will be failing in my duty if I do not compliment the previous administration under the leadership of Mr G Krog and Mr A K Singh, for the efficient way they dealt with the problem in my area, especially with regard to the school building. They corrected the problem and I appreciate it. Furthermore, this may be my last speech on this budget. I will be seeking re-election, but goodness knows whether I will be back.

At the outset I want to say that I cannot defend the hon the Minister here this afternoon, after hearing the hon member for Lenasia East. [Interjections.] I do not say that it is rubbish.

It is an investigating report that has been published. If the hon the Minister is misleading this House, I feel he should resign. Parliament is not a place where hon members should be misled. I believe in clean administration. I will stand here and fight for clean administration. Clean administration must be seen, and not talked about.

If the director’s daughter was involved in this matter, and if the evidence is true, then there should be a committee of enquiry or a select committee of Parliament to investigate this. If the director is guilty, the very same should be done to him as was done to other directors.

Hon members are going to seek re-election. I do not believe that the own affairs system will still be in existence in the year 2000. The own affairs education system must be abolished. We in this country need one President, one Minister of Education, one Minister of Health and one Minister of Police. We need one Ministry for everything. This is not my election manifesto. I am merely stating what I believe in.

It is a good manifesto!

This tricameral system has separated us from our people. I have said this previously. We have forgotten about our communities back home. I want to be honest. Hon members have become opportunistic. [Interjections.] I have said this in 1984 and 1985. It is on record in Hansard. Hon members are not interested in their communities anymore. They are interested in Mercedes-Benz cars. [Interjections.] They want to seek positions so that they can ask: “What do I get?”

Well, you have two schools in your area!

This is not only about schools. The people of Isipingo are hard-working people—not this House of Delegates. Mr Krog is in charge of this aspect. I have mentioned this. The schools have been built, yes. However, we only have one school in Malagassy that is being built now. It was planned as far back as 1979. It is because of the hard work of the people and the council of Isipingo that this has finally come about. We have hardly had any assistance from his administration.

Look at the people of Malagasy. Look at how my people are suffering. I am grateful that they are now building our school, and I respect them for that. However, look at where they are building our schools. They build our schools in areas where burglaries are commonplace. Thieves break into the schools. They build schools on river embankments.

When I came here in 1984, I never would have thought that Untag would be in Namibia today. However, within five years this became a reality. What is going to happen to the Republic of South Africa?

The ANC will take over!

There will be an ANC government in this country before the end of the century! This is definitely going to happen. Why do we not learn to live together and adapt? Why do we not open our schools? The hon the Minister said that certain criteria are applied. In my area we have made an application, but it seems that it is not what you know, but who you know that counts. In my area there were Black parents and unfortunately these parents were from the working class. They sent their children to a pre-primary school in my area. Automatically, one imagines that these children who left pre-primary school wanted to go to the primary school in my area. What happened? They were rejected! During that very same week, I made representations to the Black community for those children to be accepted. When are we going to start living together?

Adapt or die!

We have to learn that—adapt or die! Those are famous words from the hon the State President. If we in the Indian community want success, if we want a good percentage poll in the forthcoming elections, I urge hon members to walk in the path of reform. Charity begins at home. If own affairs is all we have, we have to make use of it. Hon members should open their eyes. They should not shut their eyes and forget 5 000 people.

That is not justice, but injustice. Of the 25 million Blacks that are here they only take 5 000. Is that justice? Nevertheless it is expected of me to praise the own affairs system. Where is the own affairs system taking us? [Interjections.] I can go on and on.

In 1984 it was liberation and then education, but in 1989-90 it is education before liberation. We must educate the people with whom we are going to live. Mr Chairman, with these words I thank you. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, it is indeed a pleasure to take part in this debate of the hon the Minister of Education and Culture and I want to touch on a few points of importance.

A very serious matter that is discussed every year is the appointment and placement of teachers. An example is that young unmarried female teachers are seconded to the platteland towns without any regard being given to accommodation available in these towns. Young girls and boys are just placed in far-away towns without any regard to where they are going to board. No provision is made for housing these teachers in these far-away towns. They come from all over the country, for example Natal and the Transvaal, and are never happy in the schools in which they are placed.

I appeal to the authorities to pay urgent attention to the needs of these teachers. Happy teachers will always bring good results in their work situation. When is the department going to provide suitable accommodation and housing for these teachers? One example is that of a young female teacher whose parents lived in Tzaneen near Pietersburg in the Northern Transvaal and who was posted to Louis Trichardt although she wanted to be in Pietersburg. Similarly teachers from Natal were posted to Pietersburg. Why could they not have posted the Natal teachers to Louis Trichardt and this teacher to Pietersburg?

It depends on their qualifications.

The transfer of teachers from Natal to the Transvaal for promotion is also a bone of contention. These teachers are posted to towns in the Transvaal where no housing is available. This makes for teachers that are always dissatisfied. From the first day of their promotion they are already applying for a transfer back to Natal. Consideration must be given to appointing local Transvaal teachers in promotion posts in that province.

There are also many dissatisfied teachers in the major cities and towns. Teachers from Lenasia teaching the same subject are placed in schools in Laudium and teachers from Laudium are placed in Lenasia. Teachers from Laudium have to travel long distances to schools in Brits, Actonville, Marlboro, Fordsburg, Azaadville, Springs and Nigel. They spend two to three hours daily travelling to and from work.

I want to refer to the college in Laudium and ask the hon the Minister to state his policy in this regard. What is the future of the Transvaal College of Education? There seems to be no direction. Although applications are received from Transvaal pupils, preference is given to Natal students. Why is that so? [Interjections.] I ask the hon the Minister to please spell out his future policy in regard to our only college in the Transvaal. We could use part of it as a technical college or secondary school with technical subjects.

Hostels are urgently needed in the Transvaal. The one in Rustenburg is a beautiful building. We need more hostels in Nelspruit, Standerton and Klerksdorp. Funds must be made available urgently.

Mr Chairman, the hon “mbongo” from the Eastern Transvaal will pardon me if I do not follow up his speech. What I can say of his speech is that he touched on a very real problem. Unfortunately, what I detect on that side of the House is that at least three hon members today have totally disagreed with their hon Minister. Furthermore, I detect that on that side of the House there is no cohesion or direction. It is a loose hotchpotch arrangement and nobody really knows where he belongs.

That is in your head. You are confused.

That hon member should go and read up Confucius—perhaps he will get more brains. [Interjections.]

This is the first time that I am speaking in this House for a very long time. I want to pay tribute to the secretariat here who, whilst I was occupying the Chair…

[Inaudible.]

That hon member must shut up. He is being used by everybody.

Mr Chairman, will the hon nominated member take a question?

I do not take unintelligent questions from people who cannot make an intelligent contribution.

I want to thank the secretariat for their cooperation and assistance. Whenever I called upon them I found them available to me and found them to be very knowledgeable. I wish them well in their fields of endeavour.

Since this debate is on education, I want to tell hon members about a letter which the Duke of Omnium wrote to his son, Lord Silverbridge, congratulating him on his election as a Conservative Party MP in the year 1880. It is a very nice educational piece. He said the following:

That goes for you too!

Shut up! I do not need your comments! [Interjections.]

I continue to quote:

This is the letter which the honourable gentleman wrote to his son. It is very appropriate in this debate because the hon the Minister of Education and Culture accepted drawing this apartheid coach. He accepted the running of this own affairs Department of Education and Culture.

I want to tell him that when I listened to his so-called policy speech, there was revolt within me, because I had expected a so-called policy outline. Instead, what did we get? We got a report of the status quo and of what that apartheid own affairs Department of Education and Culture had been doing over the past year.

That hon Minister was party to the acceptance of…

Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon member a question?

Order! The hon member has said before that he will not take questions.

Mr Chairman, if he has an intelligent question I will take it from him. I first want to say something about the manner in which that side of the House entrenches group areas and apartheid by supporting the Vote on Constitutional Development and Planning. When they are putting thousands of our people out on the streets, that side of the House supports it. [Interjections.]

That hon Minister spoke in very insulting terms about the new subject of so-called cultural studies. In his speech—it is not a speech for reporters and I do not really know what it is—he said the following, and I quote:

I want to tell that hon Minister that after five years in Parliament I regret that he is so insensitive that he sits in the Joint Chamber of Parliament…

Mr Chairman, will the hon nominated member take a question?

The hon nominated member will take a question!

Is the hon member aware that that kind of subject brings about a good relationship among race groups?

I am going to tell the hon the Minister that this sort of language does not bring about any better understanding. In fact, if our Coloured brethren here in Parliament had to see this they would take this hon Minister to task.

I want to tell him that he is so insensitive that after five years in Parliament he has not listened to our so-called Coloured brethren and fellow South Africans in Parliament who resent being told that there is a so-called separate “Coloured culture”. There is no “Coloured culture” in this country. There is a culture to which the Coloured people subscribe. There is no separate “Coloured culture”.

That hon Minister should get his facts right, because what he is doing by saying these sort of things, is to create an alienation between us and our so-called fellow-South Africans who are classified by the White man’s laws as Coloured people. Of course, that side of the House subscribes to apartheid, accepts apartheid and will make apartheid work.

Having said that, I want to try to drive home the fact that that hon Minister was party to accepting the so-called ten-year plan, which is aimed at bringing about equality in education. That is what the Government said. This naturally meant that large sums of money, needed for real development in so-called Indian education… Let me just interrupt myself and say that as long as that hon Minister wants to drive the Indian education bus, he has to see to it that Indian education is brought on a par with so-called White education. However, the White people over all the years have had all the privileges in this country and have built up their educational institutions to a very high pitch.

In the past they had an advantage over us with regard to the total national budget for education. In the past the per capita expenditure on people of colour, in other words people other than White people, was far less than that on White people. The White people utilised all those opportunities in the past to build their schools and other educational institutions and to develop them to the highest levels. In short, from that position where they do not really need much more in their system, they call upon us who are still lagging behind—there are certainly lagging standards in our communities of colour—and they expect us to make the same type of sacrifices that they have to make.

What happened then? I want to charge the hon the Minister this afternoon with the fact that when those things were negotiated he hopelessly let down the community for which he is responsible. He made flowery speeches in this House calling on all of us to make sacrifices. I am the first one to say that we should make sacrifices, but the Whites should make bigger sacrifices, because their levels are far higher than those of our communities. We should not be called upon to make the same level of sacrifices as them, because they do so from a position of relative superiority. I believe there the hon the Minister let us down very badly.

There are a few parochial matters that I wish to discuss, but I will do that tomorrow. Today I want to speak on general issues. The hon member for Lenasia East has passed some documents on to me. I want to make it very clear that I have the highest degree of respect for the administrative staff and for all the educators in this country. We may have some bad eggs somewhere along the line, but do we not have them in all avenues. It is a pity that a very senior official is affected by this document. I firstly find it very strange that a document marked “secret” ended up in the lap of the hon member for Lenasia East. He has not told me how he received it.

This is damning because I believe it would appear that there surely was some leakage in that Ministers’ Council, or that the people who are the responsible custodians of these documents are not such good custodians after all. I want to say that I unfortunately find it difficult to agree to entrust the future of our people to such incompetent hands that they cannot even look after such important documents. [Interjections.]

What does this document say? I merely want to repeat the last paragraph—the finding—which the hon member for Lenasia East could not complete. He asked me to do so on his behalf.

Paragraph 10.1 of this secret document which was drawn up by the Chief Director of the Budget and of Auxiliary Services says:

*Mr Chairman, when taking the answers which the hon the Minister gave the hon member for Lenasia Central in this House on 14 March into account, I want to say that the implications of his answer and of what appears in this report, lead me to one conclusion only.

†That is that the hon the Minister of Education and Culture is honour-bound to resign. [Interjections.] The hon member for Southern Natal can laugh as much as he likes. Of course he can laugh as much as he likes. I think he should look at himself in the mirror right now. They are the people who claim that they want clean administration. [Interjections.] Where does clean administration come from now, when they are trying to cover up for that hon Minister who deliberately misled Parliament by saying the following when he responded to the hon member for Lenasia Central?

Order! The hon member Mr Abram must withdraw the word “deliberately”.

Fine, Sir. He did not deliberately mislead us, but he misled us. Will that satisfy Mr Chairman?

Order! The hon member may proceed.

This is what the hon the Minister told this House. He said that he had to disclose the truth lest by omission an unpardonable injustice is committed not only against the Chief Executive Director and his daughter, but also against the image of his department. What more damning evidence does one need than the publication of this secret report and the availability of this secret report to tarnish the image of that hon Minister’s department and more so of that hon Minister himself?

The hon the Minister said further:

Something is said here about the particular candidate having been five marks short of passing biology on the standard grade.

I think if that side of the House is serious about so-called clean administration, they must not come and talk here of wounded animals or whatever. I am talking to hon members this afternoon about the facts that are here on the table before us. The facts show beyond reasonable doubt that there has been some degree of impropriety and that the hon the Minister of Education and Culture misled this House in the reply he gave us on 14 March 1989.

*In Parliament one may perhaps fool around with women. One could perhaps steal someone else’s money. Apparently such things are acceptable. There is only one thing which one may or dare not do in Parliament. That is lying to Parliament. That is what the hon the Minister did. I think that the hon the Minister very definitely…

Order! The hon member may not say that the hon the Minister lied. I ask the hon member to withdraw that.

Mr Chairman, I want to say that the hon the Minister misled the House.

Order! I am asking the hon member to withdraw that.

Mr Chairman, I withdraw the word “lied”. I am saying that he misled us.

Order! The hon member must withdraw the full sentence, not only the word “lied”, in the context in which it was said.

Mr Chairman, I shall put it differently. I want to say that the hon the Minister…

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Since the hon member is directing criticism at a person who does not understand Afrikaans, is it courteous of him to use that language?

That is not a point of order.

Mr Chairman, I am certain that the hon member for Reservoir Hills will agree with me that if I am speaking to my hon Minister of Education and Culture—Francois as you call him, Sir—I expect him to understand the other official language of this country. [Interjections.] I want to tell hon members that I have not seen the inside of a university. That hon Minister must have some university degrees behind his name; otherwise he would not have been a principal of a school.

*Mr Chairman, I want to say that the hon the Minister misled us and because he misled us, we demand his resignation.

Mr Chairman, will the hon member take a question?

Mr Chairman, I will take any question.

Mr Chairman, is the hon member giving us this venom this afternoon because his agent failed to convince me to back him as Chairman of the Ministers’ Council?

Mr Chairman, when somebody is driven into a corner, the only thing they can do is to try and look for faults in me. I want to tell that hon Minister that at no time did I have such aspirations and at no time did I send any agents to him. The agent that he talks of is a figment of his imagination. The hon Minister has no defence whatsoever. He must not now stoop to the lowest of low levels. I have regarded him as an honourable person all these years and I hope that he will not be as obstinate as others here who knew that the time had come to resign and go and were not prepared to do so. When the time came for me to go, I was honourable enough to go. I did not come and beg hon members and say that I would come to them with two or three other hon members and that they must accept me back and give me the position of Chairman. I did not do that.

Mr Chairman, will the hon member take a question?

Mr Chairman, I am not prepared to answer questions from that jack-in-the-box. I am not interested in him. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members will not interject when the hon member is speaking.

Mr Chairman, I speak to intelligent people and I consider the hon the Minister of Education and Culture extremely intelligent. [Time expired.]

Debate interrupted.