Mr Chairman, I firstly want to avail myself of this opportunity to pay tribute to my predecessor, Mr S P Botha. For many years he handled this difficult and sensitive Manpower portfolio with great competence and he initiated changes and adjustments that have had far-reaching consequences in the labour field in South Africa. It is true that those policy adjustments were often effected under difficult circumstances and that it took a great deal of political courage and perseverance on his part in order to carry them out. I want to pay tribute to him for that and tell him that some of the work he did will stand as monuments to him along the way. There are people who disagree with the policies he pursued. Time having been the judge, he acted correctly, however. It is also true that the inescapable passage of history will ultimately be the judge as to whether he was right or wrong. However, I want to say that I am of the opinion that he was right. I am of the opinion that the path that has been pursued in this field until now is to the benefit not only of the employees in South Africa, but also of the employers and of the broad national interest in general.

Today is a special day for me in that I am able to stand here in this capacity. I did not apply for this portfolio. Secondly, I also want to say that it is a privilege for me to be standing here and to be serving under the leadership and authority of an outstanding statesman and a Prime Minister like our present Prime Minister, Mr P W Botha. To serve under him is at all times a particular privilege for any Minister of his Cabinet. I want to go further and say that it is a special day for me because it is the fifth time in my life that I am handling a Vote, and four of the previous occasions were in connection with other portfolios. I therefore believe hon members will have the necessary sympathy in realizing that one cannot know everything about everyone at all times like an encyclopaedia.

In commending the discussion of this Vote I should like to single out a few aspects which can precede the general discussion. Firstly, I want to make particular mention of the exceptional achievement attained by the Department of Manpower by succeeding in having last year’s annual report ready for the discussion of this Vote. As far as I could ascertain, it is the first time in the history of this department that the previous year’s annual report is ready before the discussion of the Vote. I want to tell you that I want to praise the officials of the department for that and convey my particular gratitude and appreciation to them for succeeding in having this annual report ready in time. I can assure you that to have this annual report in Parliament in time involved extraordinary efforts, as well as exceptional sacrifices on the part of some members of my department. I want to congratulate them on that and convey my personal gratitude to them, and I hope and trust that in future it will be the custom and the rule that we will have the annual report ready in time. I also want to mention—probably not everyone knows about this—that to bring out an annual report the department is dependent on a variety of institutions for the statistical data contained in it, inter alia trade unions and employer organizations, and therefore at the same time I want to avail myself of this opportunity to thank the institutions concerned, on whom we depend for certain statistics, in particular for their co-operation so that we could dispose of this effort so timeously this year.

In the second instance, I want to single out and emphasize certain aspects of the department’s annual report. In this regard I should like to refer to the general role and functions of the Department of Manpower, as well as to a few of the most important results that have been achieved in the various fields of the department’s activities during 1983. I should like to present a few thoughts concerning the general role of the Department of Manpower. The general role of the department becomes very clear from the contents of the different laws administered by the department and they relate mainly to the following: Firstly—I think this is probably one of the most important aspects—the promotion of sound labour relations in South Africa; secondly, the promotion of the training and retraining of the labour force in this country; thirdly, the promotion of the effective utilization of the labour force in this country and the accompanying increase in productivity of the labour force, and finally, the protection of the labour force, inter alia, against unemployment, injuries at work and unfavourable terms of employment and working conditions.

The department is pre-eminently a relations department and for the successful accomplishment of its task it is extremely dependent on the trust and co-operation of workers and trade unions on the one hand, and on employers and employer organizations on the other. Without the trust and cooperation of all parties progress simply cannot be made in this field. The field of manpower in which the department operates is also a very complex sensitive and sometimes emotional field, and that is why it is so important not to politicize manpower issues or to make irresponsible or thoughtless statements or pronouncements in that regard. Such statements and politicization of matters relating to manpower not only make the task of the department difficult, but also that of the individual employers and trade union leaders.

Since I took over these Manpower portfolio I have gained a strong impression about a few things. Firstly, I want to mention that I am impressed by the impartiality, dedication and sincerity of the officials of the department. Furthermore, I am impressed by the tremendous degree of trust the department and its officials enjoy in the ranks of employers and workers. In addition, I am also impressed by the particularly great responsibility resting on the shoulders of a small group of senior officials who take the lead. On this occasion I want to express my sincere gratitude to all the officials of the department for the important work they are doing and I am also proud of the progress being made and the results being achieved in the field of manpower. I also want to express my gratitude on this occasion to all the statutory organizations that fall under the department, viz the Industrial Court, the National Training Board, the National Manpower Commission, the Wage Board and the Board for Religious Objection. I want to express my gratitude and appreciation to each of these organizations for the exceptional role they are playing and the valuable contributions they are making.

I also briefly want to say something about staff and finances. During the course of 1983, 120 new posts were created in the establishment of the department due to the extension of the services rendered by the department. The department’s establishment numbers 2 808 posts due to this expansion. Although 83,8% of the posts had been filled by the end of 1983, 32,9% of the posts that were filled were not suitably manned. The department is experiencing a serious shortage of experienced officials. This shortage has built up over the years and will take a long time to rectify. At the end of 1983, 1 502, or 63,8% of the 2 354 officials in service had less than five years’ experience. Only 36% of our officials have more than five years’ experience. Various senior officials are at present nearing pensionable age, and it is in fact difficult to replace these people. You will give me a moment to address a few words of gratitude to the Divisional Inspector of Durban, Mr D P Liebenberg, who is retiring after 43 years. I want to thank him for the valuable work he has done there. I want to convey my congratulations to his successor, Mr Hitchcock, the present Director of Liaison, on his acceptance of that post.

The department’s budget for the 1983-84 financial year amounted to R71 million, which means an increase of 16% on the previous financial year. An amount of R92,9 million was voted for the present financial year, 1984-85. This means a budget increase of approximately 30%. Another matter I want to mention briefly is the question of labour relations. I should like to emphasize three matters in this field, viz the increase in the membership of registered trade unions, the decrease in the number of strikes and work stoppages, and the increased use of reconciliation machinery for which provision is made in the Labour Relations Act. The membership of the registered trade unions increased by 63 294 in 1983 and amounted to 1,3 million at the end of 1983. Of these, 469 260, or 36,4% were members of Black population groups. The number of strikes and work stoppages declined from 394 in 1982 to 336 in 1983 and the number of workers involved in strikes and work stoppages decreased from 141 571 to 64 469. The greater percentage, viz 37,7%, of all strikes were due to wage disputes. Furthermore, strikes were of relatively shorter duration—52% lasted less than one day and only seven out of every 1 000 workers were involved in strikes during the course of the year, compared with 16 per 1 000 the previous year. A total of 118 applications for conciliation boards were received in 1983, compared with 60 in 1982. Of these, 33 were approved and 27 were refused, whilst 24 were withdrawn.

The number of cases referred to the Industrial Court increased from 41 in 1982 to 168 in 1983. There have already been 112 cases up to 18 May 1984. If this trend continues, the number of cases could increase to more than 200 this year. The proceedings of the Industrial Court are taking longer, however, due to lengthy and complicated pleadings, inter alia. As a matter of interest, I am told that a while ago a pleading of approximately 1 500 pages was handed in to the Industrial Court. In addition, the duration of the proceedings of the Industrial Court is also increasing due to the use of legal representatives by the parties concerned and as a result of problems in finding suitable dates for sittings that suit all the parties. Senior advocates are being used more frequently and it is often difficult to fit in dates for them.

I should like to emphasize that the Industrial Court is an independent body and that neither the Minister nor the department has any power to interfere with the rulings of the court. I am saying this particularly in view of Press reports in which it is claimed that I have supposedly now begun to interfere and exert pressure op the Industrial Court. The Industrial Court’s decisions can also be reviewed by the Supreme Court. It is therefore obvious that any interference on my part in this court’s proceedings is senseless, since those decisions can be taken on appeal in any case.

The present definition of an unfair labour practice is embodied in legislation, all parties having had the opportunity to comment and make inputs. In view of comments being received on the report of the National Manpower Commission—it was published recently—statutory amendments will be considered.

The next matter I should like to bring up is the very important matter of training. Despite the levelling off in the economy, very good results were achieved in the field of training in 1983, as becomes apparent from the data in the annual report. The number of work-seekers being trained increased from 860 in 1982 to 3 852 in 1983, and the scheme is continually being extended as placement possibilities for trained work-seekers improve. With the assistance of the National Training Board the department is carefully monitoring the effectiveness of the training scheme and it is not prepared to incur expenditure that will not bear fruit merely for the sake of greater numbers. Nor is the department prepared to train people without taking note of placement possibilities.

The department also had a thorough investigation carried out into the financing of public group training centres, and the Treasury has already been approached for the approval of a financing formula which, if approved, ought to place these centres on a sound financial footing.

The decrease in tax concessions in respect of training costs has elicited widespread reaction in certain circles. It must be emphasized, however, that employers can still recover a large portion of their training costs by way of tax deductions, as becomes apparent from the following. The employer can recover 50% of the training costs in respect of employees who earn more than R15 000 per annum, and 75% of the training costs in respect of employees who earn R15 000 and less. There are indications that tax concessions have been abused in certain cases, and that is why in approving courses the department has also taken careful note of the fees being charged for the course. At the end of 1983 there was a total of more than 20 000 approved courses.

The financial basis in terms of which grants-in-aid to registered trade unions, employers’ organizations and federations which conduct schemes for training in labour relations has been finalized, and the first payment of R16 545 was made to a trade union on 29 March 1984.

With the aid of the Human Sciences Research Council, the National Training Board is engaged in a comprehensive and in-depth investigation into all facets of artisan training and this investigation will hopefully be concluded by the end of 1984.

As regards the utilization of manpower, I can mention that the department is giving attention to the improvement of placement services for all population groups, and a five year programme has been introduced in this regard. The department is also giving financial assistance to the National Productivity Institute and an amount of R3,996 million has been voted for this purpose for the 1983-84 financial year.

As far as productivity is concerned, I should like to express my gratitude to the National Productivity Institute for its contribution to promoting productivity. I have been told that the National Productivity Institute has decided to launch a productivity week from 30 July to 3 August. The purpose of this productivity week is to create a positive awareness of productivity amongst all population groups in South Africa. This attempt on the part of the National Productivity Institute is to be welcomed and it deserves the support of everyone in South Africa.

I now come to social security. Firstly, I want to refer to safety. An Advisory Council for Occupational Safety was introduced during August 1983 and it consists of nine members. The council is giving attention to the regulations needed for putting the Machinery and Occupational Safety Act into operation, and we intend putting the Act and regulations into operation on 1 July 1984. As far as safety is concerned, I should also like to express my gratitude to the National Occupational Safety Association for its tremendous contribution to the promotion of the safety of workers. The association receives an annual grant from the Workmen’s Compensation Fund for that purpose (it amounted to R1,977 million in 1982-83) and in 1982-83 it presented a record number of 1 894 courses to 27 269 candidates.

As regards unemployment insurance I can say that the earnings ceiling of R12 000 per annum was increased to R18 000 per annum with effect from 1 April 1984, and more workers are therefore covered now than previously. The first payments of unemployment insurance contributions collected from migrant labourers and commuters during the period May to October 1983 were paid over to the unemployment insurance funds of Transkei, (R3,3 million), Ciskei (R0,8 million), Bophuthatswana (R1,6 million) and Venda (R0,3 million) at the beginning of December 1983. Since then contributions are being paid over to these States on a monthly basis. In this regard I should also like to mention that this is a practical example of multilateral co-operation in which employer and employee make a contribution to the unemployment insurance fund, which is then paid over to the governments of the workers concerned so that those workers can receive these benefits via their governments when they are unemployed. Hon members are aware that Blacks only began making contributions to this fund from May. I should also like to mention that we are prepared to conclude similar agreements with other states in Africa that have migrant labourers in the Republic so that there can be more security for these migrant labourers as well. I could also mention that we raised this matter with a delegation from the Government of Mozambique during discussions we had with them last week, and they were very interested in it.

As far as the unemployment insurance fund is concerned, I can say that every effort has been made to eliminate delays in the payment of benefits. Apart from sporadic problems cropping up in certain areas, the position at present is well under control. I want to express my gratitude to the Unemployment Insurance Commissioner and his staff at head office and at the district offices who have acquitted themselves of their task responsibly and efficiently under difficult circumstances and mostly under great pressure.

I now come to workmen’s compensation insurance. As hon members are aware, various amendments to the Workmen’s Compensation Act to improve benefits and in order to afford injured workers greater protection were proposed in 1984. Amendments approved during this session should mean a great deal to injured workers. The Workmen’s Compensation Office also dealt with a large workload under pressure and I want to thank the Commissioner and his staff for this.

As far as liaison is concerned, I can say that Manpower 2000 is being continued as a departmental campaign. A series of 16 pamphlets was distributed during the course of 1983.

The first Trade Test Award Ceremony which took place on 19 February 1983 elicited widespread favourable reaction and will be continued on an annual basis.

An historic conference with industrial councils was held in Pretoria on 24 November 1983 and was attended by more than 300 delegates.

In addition, the two labour attaches abroad made a very important contribution in disseminating information about manpower in the RSA, and I want to thank them for their contributions as well.

In conclusion, I want to say that I trust that the short summary I have given here will contribute to facilitating the discussions and I am looking forward to a fruitful debate. Before concluding, I should just like to make two announcements, one with regard to the training of the handicapped, and the other with regard to unemployment insurance.

In 1982 the Department of Manpower introduced a scheme in terms of which selected unemployed persons are trained in certain basic skills at State expense. This scheme, which was initially introduced as a pilot scheme by two group training centres, was later extended to other centres, and larger numbers of unemployed people were involved, despite the fact that the placement in employment of work-seekers who received training was hampered by the recession.

The position concerning the employment of handicapped people is being continuously monitored by the Department of Manpower. Two aspects in particular are being given attention, viz possible problems experienced by employers, which contribute directly to the fact that the handicapped are not easily employed, as well as factors on the part of work-seekers themselves which make it difficult to place them, or cause them not to be placed at all. I am pleased to be able to say that employers are usually sympathetic towards deserving cases and are prepared to assist those people and to afford them the opportunity of showing what they are capable of. I am therefore particularly pleased to be able to announce that in order to improve the placement possibilities of the handicapped the scheme for the training of workseekers is also being extended to unemployed physically handicapped people of all population groups between the ages of 16 and 55 years. In future these people will qualify to receive specialized training at State expense, which will enable them to be placed in the open labour market. Handicapped people who are interested in training need not necessarily be registered as unemployed with the Department of Manpower. The training of the physically handicapped will initially be presented at the Access College in Johannesburg by the Apex group training centre, Benoni. This commenced on 14 May 1984. At present the centre has facilities to train 15 candidates in commercial courses, such as typing, bookkeeping, secretarial practice, switchboard operator, data processing, etc. From 1 September 1984 a further 36 candidates will be trained in technical courses, such as basic carpentry and metal work, lift operators, general repair of electrical apparatus, welding, etc. The courses in both fields will last for approximately nine weeks. Due to their physical handicaps the training centre will select the candidates for training after they have been subjected to a test by a clinical psychologist. Selected trainees will not have to pay for the training, since the fee for the course up to a maximum of R200 per week will be paid by the Department of Manpower. No grant, as in the case of the training of ordinary unemployed people, will be paid, because the handicapped already receive a disability grant. The group training centre will assist in transporting the handicapped from their homes to the centre. It is to be hoped that through this training as many handicapped people as possible will be assisted to make a decent and independent living and that it will afford these people the opportunity to become happy, self-supporting citizens of this country. I am particularly pleased to be able to announce these new opportunities for the handicapped.

The second matter I should like to bring up is the improvement of the services to unemployment beneficiaries. It is a well-known fact that due to the increased unemployment being experienced since 1982, the regional offices of the Department of Manpower are continually being inundated with applications from unemployed contributors to the unemployment insurance fund. In order to improve this service to unemployed contributors and to eliminate inconvenience and expense on the part of beneficiaries as far as possible, ten new offices of the Department of Manpower have been opened closer to the places of residence of the unemployed. The new offices are at Raise-thorpe, Elsies River, Atlantis, Wynberg, Alberton, New Canada, Lenasia, Eldorado Park, Chatsworth and Kroonstad. At present investigations are being carried out into opening at least another 16 new offices at different places in the country. Since it is not practical to establish new offices at remote places the possibility is being investigated of getting cheques to beneficiaries by introducing mobile services. One post for a public relations officer to perform this function, as well as to deal with the training of officials from institutions that act as agents for the fund, has already been created in Natal. Attention is being given to creating more such posts. To make contributors to the fund aware of their rights and privileges in terms of the Unemployment Insurance Act, the department has already distributed various pamphlets concerning unemployment insurance as part of the Manpower 2000 information series. In addition, the department is engaged in compiling a new series of information pamphlets in which the various benefits that can be paid in terms of the Act, viz illness, pregnancy and unemployment benefits and payments to dependents of deceased contributors are dealt with separately. The intention is to publish these pamphlets in both official languages, as well as in the various Black languages. In January 1983 the Unemployment Insurance Board appointed a special subcommittee with the instruction to investigate the administration of the fund and to look at the provisions of the Unemployment Insurance Act, with a view to making proposals to the department with regard to possible programmes of action and adjustments. The committee has almost completed its work programme and proposals will soon be submitted to the Unemployment Insurance Board for consideration. I am sure that this effort will lead to an improved service to unemployed contributors. I shall let what I have said suffice for the time being.

Mr Chairman, may I have the privilege of the half-hour, please?

Mr Chairman, the first thing I would like to deal with on behalf of the official Opposition is to welcome the new Minister who is participating for the first time in the Manpower Vote. The hon the Minister has already indicated his own awareness of the heavy responsibilities of his new undertaking and I have no doubt that he has both the background, the experience, and the commitment to fulfil these responsibilities. We look forward very much to working closely with the hon the Minister.

The hon the Minister has referred to his predecessor. I want to say two things about Mr Fanie Botha. Firstly, the hon the Minister is correct when he states that Mr Fanie Botha is very strongly linked with the new developments and the new initiatives which have been taken by the Government and by the department with regard to labour legislation. I agree with the hon the Minister, it takes enormous courage to take steps away from the past into the future. I think that anyone who has been working either in the labour field or in the legislative field or in Parliament itself will have to endorse the words of the hon the Minister with regard to Mr Fanie Botha. That, of course, only compounds the tragedy, if I may put it that way, that his departure from Parliament took place under a cloud.

The new hon the Minister faces major challenges and I am delighted that he has identified himself publicly today with the changes that have been introduced and that he has indicated his awareness that other changes will also have to come into play. I say that, because there has been, and the hon the Minister knows that better than I, speculation that, because of the polarization between the Government and the right wing, the department itself and the Government as well have got cold feet. That is the phrase that has been used. I am delighted that this is not the case and I take it that the commitment expressed by the hon the Minister makes that very clear.

The second thing is that I, too, am very pleased that we have the 1983 report, although it did mean a great deal of work over the last few days. Nevertheless, to have this up to date information before the Manpower Vote is discussed is of course of inestimable value to those of us who participate. I want therefore, to pay tribute as well to all those who have made this possible.

The hon the Minister has taken us on quite a long journey through the report. I do not know what the rest of his colleagues are going to say. I suppose they will touch on it here and there, but we, of course, will have to refer to a number of these issues in the report. I will be quite brief. Some of my hon colleagues will be referring to them as well. One thing is clear: The hon the Minister has read the report and I hope that he will take it that we have as well.

I want to refer just to a couple of these items. Firstly, as far as the staff situation is concerned, the report itself makes the point that the staff position is still disquieting, considering that 454 posts are vacant and 735 posts are not suitably filled. I want to make a suggestion to the hon the Minister. I read in the report that 51,1% of the department’s posts are held by women. Is it not time for us to change the name of this department? Could we not speak of womenpower rather than manpower, because clearly even here the women are taking over. But, more seriously, it is with gratitude that one notes the fact that women are being used in the department as, of course, in other areas, in industry and in commerce, and rightly so. For too long they have been ignored. The one point that worries me is that the department has spelt out the problem but it offers no solution. It does not suggest any way in which it is going to tackle this severe staff shortage, the high turn-over and the fact that they have a great number of inexperienced people doing extremely difficult work. I would hope that the hon the Minister and his department will give us some indication of how they propose to try and meet this, as they put it, disquieting situation. One immediately has to ask the question whether the department, which has made some very bold initiatives, is making the fullest and the best use of the total human resource which is in South Africa in its own work. Are we in the department making use, by selection and by training of Coloureds, Indians and Blacks, as much as we ought to? That is the only reservoir that we will have to draw on. Already we have major problems and we are not going to solve them by sticking to one particular population group.

The hon the Minister has made two very important announcements. We are extremely grateful for both of them. The first announcement dealt with the training of the handicapped and the second announcement dealt with the facilities to make it easier for those who have to draw unemployment insurance. This is certainly a forward step, because we know unfortunately the demand on the UIF is not going to ease up because the unemployment is not going to ease up in the short term.

With regard to the nature and frequency of strikes, the decline in strikes from 394 to 336 and also, especially, the decline in the number of workers involved in strikes and the average duration of the strikes is to be welcomed.

As far as sheltered employment is concerned, I always wonder why we have so few people involved in sheltered employment. You will notice in the report that not only are there few people, but they almost entirely belong to one particular group of people. I have received a number of letters, as I am sure other hon members have, from people who are in sheltered employment and who are very grateful, but who do raise a number of questions regarding their own status. I do not think they are being unreasonable. They are aware that they are performing sheltered employment. Their maximum wage—I could be wrong on this one—is R347 a month, even if they have a Senior Certificate or a university degree. I am not sure whether my facts are right, but I would like to ask the hon the Minister to look into the conditions of employment for those in sheltered employment. According to those who have been in touch with me the recent 12% increase for civil servants only applied from the 1st or 4th April as far as they were concerned and yet it applied from the 1st January as far as everybody else was concerned. These are some of the problems which they raise and I would be very glad, if, in general terms, the hon the Minister could get his department to let us have the working conditions of those under sheltered employment.

In the report there does not seem to be—we have only had it for a very short time and I may again be wrong here—any reference to the commission looking into the working conditions of farm workers and domestic workers. I do not see any reference to it. It is very important work that is being done. I did put a question on the Question Paper earlier and on 30 March received a reply from the hon the Minister saying that the work is proceeding, but that it is not ready yet and that the report should be out by the end of the year. If the hon the Minister could give us a little more specific information or a progress report on this, we would be grateful.

The National Manpower Commission performs a Herculean task, and during the last few weeks we have received a very lengthy and far-reaching report dealing with collective bargaining, the registration of trade unions, employers’ organizations, industrial courts and other related matters. In my view it would be unreasonable, and even foolhardy, to proceed with legislation covering these areas until submissions have been received from the Government as requested by them and their own White Paper is published. There are additional points that one should take into account as far as the National Manpower Commission is concerned. Firstly, the report is dated July 1983 and yet we only received it during the last month. Why the long delay? Secondly, is it necessary to cover so many difficult topics, which are also far-reaching with lots of implications, in one report? Should the report be so bulky and deal with so many matters? Could their reporting not be done somewhat differently? There are those, both in trade unions and in management, who believe that the NMC is far too large and unwieldy and that it has too many civil servants and academics, who tend to be remote from industrial relations, serving on the commission. The NMC, as I have said, is a vital body and we believe in it. In fact, we, amongst others, called for it to be instituted. Because the nature of its work is so important, I believe it must give attention to some of these criticisms which I have now mentioned.

As far as labour relations are concerned, the opening sentence on page 12 of the report deserves special attention. It reads:

We all agree with that. We have already referred to the strike and work stoppages record for 1983, which shows a considerable improvement. It may well be that the recession is largely responsible for this. The new approach and the new legislation are still very much in their infancy and the Government would be well advised to proceed with caution and sensitivity in the field of labour relations. The situation can be described as both fluid and fragile. When one bears in mind that of the nearly 9 million economically active persons in South Africa, almost two thirds, or 6 million, are Black, one begins to comprehend the complexity of the situation, which has all the complexity of a battlefield. I want to say to the hon the Minister that the Government’s withholding of genuine political rights for Blacks, exacerbates this complexity and sensitivity, and in fact is nothing short of incitement to Blacks to use other than constitutional means to obtain their political rights. What would happen if Whites had no political rights in South Africa? What other institutions would they use? Trade unions are therefore under considerable pressure, and I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of Black trade union leaders see the struggle for better wages and improved working conditions as their number one priority, but that they are aware, as any other, of the political power which can achieve economic and social gains which are not now within their grasp. They are under unbelievable pressure from many of their members, who are angry and disillusioned about what they describe as their continued third class citizenship existence. This means that as long as this vacuum exists, the pressure on the department, the pressure on trade union leaders and the pressure on management is almost intolerable. I want to submit that there are a number of factors at work today which are actually exacerbating the situation.

Even when we improve matters, it sometimes creates problems. The recent legislation which brought about equal taxation, for example, has brought about shriller and more urgent demands from Black workers for equal facilities for equal taxation and, above all, equal taxation means equal representation. Secondly, the galloping rate of GST has further complicated the situation and has made an already explosive situation more difficult. The ham-handed and clumsy way in which the most recent increase has been handled, has not helped either. Black workers who are in the vast majority in the industrial field have absolutely no say and no leverage in the corridors of power. No sooner have trade unions negotiated a relatively small increase against the background of a recession, when it is overtaken by yet another increase in GST. Many of them are living from hand to mouth and every new increase creates desperation and increased pressure on trade union leaders as well as on management. Thirdly, the growing activity in the registration and electioneering in preparation for Coloured and Indian elections, is a daily reminder to Blacks that they are excluded from the new dispensation. Fourthly, the ravages brought by the recent and continued droughts have caused extreme hardship and a further movement away from the rural areas to the cities. Fifthly, the recession has bitten hard and Black unemployment continues to spiral. It has now reached what we can only describe as alarming proportions, with no sign of the economic recession being eased. What is even more serious, is that so much of Black unemployment is not merely cyclical, but structural, which means that even should the economic situation be drastically improved, it does not necessarily follow that the unemployment situation amongst Blacks will improve correspondingly. Sixthly, the loss of South African citizenship and having to move from an independent country into South Africa, sometimes on a daily basis or on a migratory basis, brings with it its own pressures and problems, which should give us all cause for concern.

Economic stability is inextricably bound up with political rights for all South Africans. To drive home the importance for careful and sympathetic action, let me conclude by mentioning some figures relating to occupational groups. Already 16% of those in clerical occupations are Black. As far as ordinary labourers are concerned, the percentage is 86,9%. At present 62,8% of workers in our transport industry and 60% of our workers in our service industries are Black, while 80% of workers in agriculture are Black. In the mining industry, the figure is 87%, in manufacturing 83%, in electricity and water supply 53%, the construction industry 57% and in trade 53%. The point I am making, is that there will be no reversal of these figures; on the contrary, it is clear to all those who have eyes to see that the White population is not able now, and never will be able, to meet the increasing demands of our economy without heavy reliance on Black workers. We are interdependent and it is therefore imperative, not only that we should be sensitive and aware in terms of labour legislation and labour relations, but that we should realize that until we attend to the fundamental rights for Blacks, we are sitting, as it were, on a time bomb.

I have time to deal with only one other issue, but my colleagues will be dealing with many others. I want to refer to the mining industry. The hon the Minister, because of his own experience when he was a Minister in another field, will tell me that what I want to say does not have to do with this Vote, but it was the Wiehahn Commission that made certain fundamental recommendations to the Minister of Manpower regarding the mining industry. The Government rightly takes pride in its movement away from job reservation, but the Mines and Works Act, which affects hundreds and thousands of workers in South Africa, continues to enshrine basic race discrimination. No fewer than 11 certificates of competency are reserved for what is termed as “scheduled persons”. These range from the level of a mine manager to locomotive drivers. The best known, of course, are people able to qualify for blasting certificates. I remind this committee that the Wiehahn Commission recommended that the Chamber of Mines and relevant unions, should be given what they termed “a reasonable amount of time” to phase out this discrimination and to substitute the term “competent person” for “scheduled person”. But there has been no real progress whatsoever. Only recently there was a meeting between the Chamber of Mines and some of the unions, but the Mineworkers’ Union, a very powerful union, and the National Union of Mineworkers, were not present. There is no way this problem will be resolved without negotiation with these two key unions. The NUM has become the first Black initiated union to be recognized by the Chamber of Mines, and as such has won for the first time in the industry’s industrial relations history, the right to negotiate on behalf of Black mineworkers. Unless this discrimination is rooted out, there is a distinct possibility of a head-on confrontation between either the Chamber and the NUM or between the Mineworkers’ Union and the NUM, which could cause untold damage to a vital industry in our country. What I want to know from the hon the Minister is how long is “a reasonable amount of time”. Has the time not come and is it not overdue for the Minister to take action and to introduce legislation so that job reservation and race discrimination in the mining industry can be removed once and for all?

Mr Chairman, when the hon member for Pinelands kicked off, I was under the impression that this might be the most positive and calm speech I have ever heard from the hon member. I thought that perhaps this Chamber was the reason for the quiet and calm attitude, but as could be expected, the second part of the hon member’s speech was for foreign consumption. I therefore do not blame the hon member for ending his speech as he did. As a matter of fact, he sketched a very dark picture at times, almost a black picture.

*I should like to tell the hon member that when it comes to the position of the Black man in White South Africa—and this also applies to the political situation—no one in South Africa is as concerned about it as is the Government of the day. It is, after all, this Government that must rule. It is the Government that must see to it that, as far as possible, the aspirations of all people are met. I do not blame the hon member for referring to this from time to time, but the question is only the manner in which one does so. The fact that this whole issue is, at the moment, being considered by a Cabinet Committee should show the hon member and his party how serious the Government’s approach to this situation is.

I should like to join the hon member in thanking the department for the annual report. I think it is a very fine report. During my short span of 10 years in Parliament, it is the first time I have received such a report in advance. As in the case of the hon member for Pinelands, it also meant my having had to work on it over the weekend. What impressed me was the fact that we are now working with only eight laws instead of 13. This is good rationalization, and perhaps we could reduce the number even further.

I should also like to refer to page 3 of the report and congratulate both the hon the Minister and the Director-General with the reports reaching us about the very positive contribution made by senior officials of the department to the Economic Advisory Council of the Prime Minister, the National Manpower Commission and the National Productivity Advisory Council. Mr Chairman, I also want to apologize to the hon the Minister for having to make an announcement based on this report today. I notice on page 85 of the report that the new legislation concerning machinery and occupational safety is likely to come into effect no later than this year. I then discovered, without reference to the hon the Minister himself, that it would come into effect on 1 July this year, and so I am sure that I can announce it now. Mr Chairman I think that it would be a very good thing for everyone to study this report in detail because it really is something special.

Mr Chairman, today you must allow me—because I see that the Chairman of the National Manpower Commission is present—to refer to this “slim” little booklet that appeared. Somebody who got hold of such a little booklet would immediately take fright, but the worst thing of all is the fine print in the booklet, because for the majority of us our eyesight is no longer what it was. However, I read this little booklet from cover to cover and there are several aspects with which I am impressed, one being that the commission found that an unfair labour practice had not been described satisfactorily. This is extremely important, because I think that one of the major problems of the industrial court is specifically the term “unfair labour practice”. On page 325 of the report of the National Manpower Commission on an investigation into the different levels of collective bargaining, the following is stated in paragraph 6.11.2.2:

In other words, probably by the Government:

Mr Chairman, I want to agree with this, because in my opinion this is the course we shall all have to adopt. We have been hoping that we would be able to decide over the years, by way of convention or by way of the stare decisis rule or the precedent rule, what an unfair labour practice was but it now appears to me as if this will not work. Only one more thing about the report of the National Manpower Commission: I am glad that the following statement is made in the opening remarks on page 331 about the conclusions regarding the industrial court:

Mr Chairman, I think it is essential for this aspect to be given some attention. References are made to a “court of clowns” and all kinds of other unfair remarks are made about the court, remarks which I do not think are necessary.

I should like to associate myself with what the hon member for Pinelands said in welcoming the hon the Minister here. I should also like to congratulate him very heartily on his birthday on Saturday. As far as I am concerned the hon the Minister does indeed look younger today than he did on Friday. I should also like to congratulate his parents, who have the opportunity of being here today, on this clever child of theirs who has already held five portfolios here. In his introductory speech the hon the Minister referred to his predecessor and it is indeed true as far as labour and manpower matters are concerned, nobody in South Africa can deny that there was a Fanie Botha era. Whether or not we are critical of this today, there is one thing we cannot wish away and that is that under ex-Minister Fanie Botha a great deal of progress was made on updating labour matters in South Africa, something which met with approval throughout the world. This we gratefully acknowledge. Mr Minister, we do not, however, want you to be a second Fanie Botha. We want you to be a first Pietie du Plessis in the Department of Manpower and in the handling of manpower issues.

When one comes to dealing with the Manpower Vote it is necessary to ask oneself a few questions. I think that the first question one should ask oneself, in regard to the problem of the labour situation in our country, is how one should look at the problems and how such problems have been addressed over the past few years. Further one must ask oneself what problems one foresees in future, how one construes the labour field in future and how one would deal with the problems one expects to be faced with.

Perhaps we should just take a brief look at what has happened since 1979. At that stage we had exclusively White trade unions, exclusively Coloured trade unions and exclusively Asian trade unions. In referring to this I am talking about registered trade unions. We also had a number of mixed trade unions, trade unions which were established prior to 1956 and were not disbanded but continued to exist. If I remember correctly at the time there were 167 registered trade unions representing approximately three quarters of a million workers in South Africa. These trade unions therefore had about three quarters of a million members. At the time there were also about 35 unregistered Black trade unions with an estimated membership was about 56 000. What happened then? Pressure increasingly built up both locally and abroad, because the people in registered trade unions had access to all the machinery of legislation. They could go to industrial councils, they could go to conciliation boards and they could also make use of the Industrial Court. This was what they had the right to do. The unregistered Black trade unions did not, however, have this right. However, the other side of the coin was indicative of something quite different. The registered trade unions were responsible to the department for making certain information available regarding their membership, their management and their head offices, and they even had to submit audited statements, while the unregistered trade unions were not subject to any such restrictions.

Order! I am sorry to say that the hon member’s time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I merely rise to afford the hon member an opportunity to continue his speech.

Mr Chairman, I thank the hon Chief Whip of the official Opposition. As a result we were expelled from the International Labour Organization. If I remember correctly Mr Ralph Bloemink of the SAAME was the last person to represent the trade unions—not the Government—in Geneva. We had all kinds of codes, for example the EEC Code, the Sullivan Code, and one could say that every third one had a code. The result was that we had to create certain escape valves for the pressure that built up. How did we do so, Mr Chairman? We did so by finding certain ways in which to reduce the pressure. For example, we created statutory trade unions rights for everyone. About this we were all ad idem. Secondly we made the bargaining machinery accessible for everyone and also easier to handle. Mr Chairman, I do not think that as yet it is all that accessible because I think that these days the Industrial Court still is a problem, but we must still work on that. We have eliminated differentiation on the basis of race and sex from our labour legislation. We have established trade union autonomy, allowing each trade union to decide on its own membership. We have also created a non-interference mechanism for labour disputes and strikes. We have created more effective liaison between the Government, employers and trade unions. I had come to think that we already had too many commissions and committees, but after further reflection I think that it is right, from time to time, to have such follow-up commissions and committees, because this keeps the Government, our trade unions and employers’ organizations actively involved in the labour situation in South Africa. In other words, it keeps the people involved in the evolution of labour arrangements in this country. We also introduced a ban on politicking on the part of unregistered trade unions. I do not know to what extent we have succeeded, but I hope we do. We have created the new Industrial Court, which still does have growing pains. The hon the Minister referred to the two labour attachés who, in my opinion, are doing very good work abroad on behalf of South Africa and its employees. In that way we have tried to defuse matters as far as possible, but I think we should now ask ourselves what our present-day problem is. I think that our greatest problem in the labour field today is unemployment. Regardless of the number of people who are on record as being unemployed, we surely do know that there are many thousands more than are indicated in the department’s records, and when all is said and done that is not something we can argue with. We do, after all, see them on the streets every day. We hear of people being retrenched and dismissed—even in my own constituency—as many as 500 at a time. These people all have families, they all have homes to run and they must live, eat and clothe themselves somehow. It might be easy to make a political issue of this, but that would not solve anything. It is a problem we are faced with, an abnormal situation in which we find ourselves. We are up against a drought, there is an economic depression which is a world-wide phenomenon. We have major problems that draw our White, Coloured and Black people away from the farms to the towns, and from the towns to the cities, creating an even bigger problem as this all snowballs. We also have another problem relating to productivity. We are situated at great distances from world markets and if we cannot, as far as production is concerned, do better than we are doing at present, we shall not be able to compete on world markets. We shall then have to continue exporting our raw materials and shall not be able to offer our processed and semi-processed products competitively on the world market. It is for this reason that I believe we could compete if our products were in semi-processed or even in a processed form and if we could maintain our standards of quality on world markets. We shall not be able to do so, however, if we do not become more productive.

As far as training, retraining and education are concerned, I believe that South Africa has a very good record, indeed one of the best records in the developing world. In saying this, I am refering to Africa, South America, Central America and even Australia. I think we are doing more than we can ever be expected to do in as far as training is concerned. If the helping hand repeatedly gets a slap on the wrist one is inclined to become a bit fed-up with it. I do not think our country can afford school boycotts, university boycotts and college boycotts at the rate at which they are taking place at present. I think that the Black leaders will have to take a firmer grip on their own people in order to keep this type of thing within bounds.

The next problem we have in the labour field at present is the almost unbridled population growth in the country. Mr Chairman, surely we cannot afford this. It is an explosion. In that regard the Coloured and Black people will have to examine their own consciences when it comes to the question of poverty. Even the Carnegie Group will have to do some self-examination. The hon the Minister of Health and Welfare also referred to this, but if we must provide 300 000 people with work each year, with family growth continuing without restraint, I see a darker picture indeed—a blacker picture—than that of the hon member for Pinelands. Let me refer to one practical problem. Since 1979 membership of Black trade unions increased within the period of three years from 24 000 to 400 000. As far as unregistered trade unions are concerned, membership increased—as I have said—from about 56 000 to 100 000. What did we find in practice? We do not have a sufficient number of trained officials in South Africa to handle this inundation. Here I am not only speaking about handling matters at the administrative level or the handling of funds, but also about the negotiation process. The fact that we have not had a sufficient number of experts to do it, and indeed still do not, has resulted in a great amount of friction and even more strikes. This has happened only because the necessary communication was lacking, and that was because we did not have the necessary communications staff.

In closing I should like to plead for one thing today, namely for greater involvement of employers in the personal existence and life situation of their employees. I believe that if employers have greater involvement in and understanding for the daily problems, the worries, of the employees, there will be more goodwill towards one another. I also want to ask the employees to take greater pride in the work they do from day to day. The employer should not merely regard the employee as a mere number and the employee should not regard the work he does as a necessary evil in order to survive. He must generate the pride in himself for what he does so that he will again talk as my old Black worker talks. On the plot he talks about our plot and our place. The worker must again talk of our commodity and our work-place. If this pride is once again cultivated in an employee I believe that we in South Africa will have a much happier employer and employee society.

Mr Chairman, to begin with I should like to apologize for the fact that due to unavoidable circumstances, the chief spokesman of our party will not be able to be present before this afternoon.

He got such a fright at Pienaars River that he fled.

Not at all.

I should like to congratulate the hon the Minister wholeheartedly on his appointment to this department. It is probably an historic event for him to have his parents here today as well.

The hon the Minister referred to provision made for handicapped people, and we agree wholeheartedly with that. If there is one group of people who should really be given a lot attention, then it is this part of our nation. Handicapped people are very positive people and what is more, they know how to utilize their abilities. In fact, they utilize the abilities that they do have, much better than the normal person. A person who is not handicapped and who has all his faculties, does not make such good use of them. These people really make the best use of what they have. For the most part one finds that they are very grateful people. For that reason we are very glad that the hon the Minister and his department make provision for handicapped people, because if the Government does not care for them and give them a place in society, they will always be a part of the population that lacks a place in society.

We are also wholly in favour of the new dispensation for the Unemployment Insurance Fund. However, people should contribute towards such a fund during their working years and ensure that it is built up.

One aspect of the manpower situation that has given us many problems in recent times is the overpopulation of the PWV region. The whole region is already overpopulated in every respect. The expansion of industries and businesses in this region has assumed such proportions that more and more housing has to be provided for these people. The present water supply in the PWV region is no longer sufficient for the needs of this overpopulated region. Has anybody given a moment’s thought to what would happen if the drought were to last another few years and if certain factories were to come to a standstill and thousands of these workers, many of them non-Whites, were left unemployed? Where would they find a livelihood? People are being attracted to the PWV region instead of the border areas so that factories and industries can decentralize. I believe that the work should be taken to the worker rather than that these masses of people should be attracted to the work, where every provision has to be made for them. The centralization of workers in this area and other metropolitan areas means that people are being drawn away from the farms. Where, in the end, are these masses going to get food, if large numbers of workers are lured from the farms and can no longer help to produce food for the masses of people in the PWV area? The matter of food supply will have to be considered, as well as methods to retain the people where they can help to produce food.

The hon member for Roodeplaat referred to trade unions. This situation should be dealt with carefully, because in a country such as Britain, for example, the trade unions already are in. They exert such a powerful influence on people and on the Government that people listen only to them. The trade unions have now got hold of a mechanism with which to bring about labour unrest and agitation. I believe that even as matters stand, the labour potential is not being utilized to the full. These days people have too much time and are remunerated for what they do not do. That is why there is more time to agitate and stir up unrest. That which a person really has to exert oneself to achieve, is no longer valued.

I agree with the remarks of the hon member for Pinelands about women. [Interjections.] There are many things about which I cannot agree with him, but on one thing I definitely agree with him. I wholeheartedly agree with him. It is true that this department is called the Department of Manpower, but I agree that the name will have to be changed. At the moment women comprise the biggest percentage of workers. I am not referring to the top positions, but to the people that work. [Interjections.]

Up to now women’s labour has always been the cheaper labour. Today, however, heavy demands are made on women by the family, society and the labour market. The labour market demands a tremendous amount of a woman’s time. Nowadays she no longer enjoys the time and luxury to stay in her own house and meditate. This is so firstly because the world has become materialistic and the woman often has to help to keep the pot boiling. I contend that it is she who suffers the most, because she must arrange her day in such a way as to satisfy the needs of everybody who demands a portion of her time, with the result that she does not really have time to live her life as a woman to the full and do all the fine and pleasant things a woman does about the house.

However, I do not find any fault with the fact that people lean so heavily on women, because women can handle it. Women have what it takes, and there are enough of them, because—as I said earlier—more than half of the population are women. Women are essential wherever they move—in the business world, in the labour market and in the office—secretaries, for example. A man will notice something, think about it soberly and logically and then reason the matter out. Women, on the other hand, see the human side of the matter. It is important today that there should be women in all sections and on all levels to perceive the human aspect of a matter. Women have an instinct for human needs and can also sense when danger lurks and when things are getting out of hand.

However, it is often the woman’s family that has to bear the brunt. Because women know this, they spend much more of their time after work with their families. It is not the quantity of the time that they spend with their family that is important, but the quality. Moreover women have learned this, and can today apply it very easily to the labour market. For this reason many more amenities should be provided for women—for example, more halfday work—so that they can still spend afternoons with their children at home. In the work situation provision should also be made for créches for the children of these women. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Germiston District referred chiefly to two matters, namely trade unions and the female labour force. One of my colleagues will at a later stage express the viewpoint on the latter adopted by this side of the House.

As far as trade unions are concerned, it is a facet of industrial countries and an industrial world that as industries develop, trade unions are formed and strikes occur. Not all strikes, however, are necessarily detrimental as a better understanding, better productivity and an improved mutual relationship between employer and employee may often emerge from them. I do not know whether the Afrikanervolkswag is also a kind of trade union; we shall have to wait and see.

The hon members for Pinelands and Roodeplaat have both referred to the problems of unemployment. The hon member for Pinelands referred to it as if it were only Blacks who were unemployed. If one looks at the statistics for all race groups, it is true that Blacks are more seriously affected but the causes—for example unskilled labour—should be examined.

The hon member for Roodeplaat referred to the population growth and I shall get back to that later. Increased unemployment is a fact and we recognize that, but it is necessary to look at its causes. Not only South Africa, but the whole world, is experiencing a recession. South Africa’s exports have dropped as a result of this global recession. As a result our industries, have not been as active as in the past and people have had to be dismissed. The country has also been suffering from the severest drought in 200 years. I believe the full impact of this drought on the economy has not yet been felt.

Unemployment is a worldwide phenomenon and estimates indicate that in Europe, 25% of those under 25 years of age are presently unemployed. In South Africa, with its unique heterogeneous population, unemployment is not only a social problem but also has political implications. Everyone, including the Government, is concerned about the unemployment problem. For that reason the Government began to give attention to this problem of unemployment as long ago as 1979. The then Offices of the economic adviser to the Prime Minister, and the National Commission for Manpower devised an overall strategy to combat unemployment. This report was completed in 1983 and at the beginning of 1984 a White Paper was published reflecting the Government’s viewpoints on this matter.

The President’s Council, too, gave attention to the creation of employment in its report on Demographic Trends in South Africa. In this report they stipulated what the population growth rate would be and what economic output would be required to provide employment for this burgeoning population. It also reached the conclusion that no country in the world possessed or could generate the capital necessary to create employment opportunities at a rate which would keep pace with the population growth of the world. It is estimated that in 1987 it will cost approximately R67 000 to create one job opportunity in South Africa, because this does not only entail job opportunities; housing, education and training, too, must be taken into account.

South Africa’s work force is characterized by two conflicting elements, namely an acute manpower shortage in some occupational groups and an oversupply in others. This in turn leads to unemployment. This phenomenon is due to the composition of our labour force, especially with regard to leadership and entrepreneurial skills, as well as training and the demand for training in the labour market. The composition of South Africa’s labour force differs considerably from that of the developed countries because here employment has to be provided for an unskilled manpower sector larger than that of the rest of the world. Unemployment in the unskilled sector points, firstly, to the need for improved, accelerated training, and, secondly, the planning of labour-intensive projects in which untrained or semi-skilled workers should be placed.

Promoting the general welfare of all population groups and in conjunction with that, the combating of unemployment, is regarded by the Government as a high priority. This is why the Government has already done a great deal to develop, utilize and conserve its manpower. I should like to refer to the establishment of the National Manpower Commission, that advises the Government on labour affairs, and I direct hon members’ attention to the recently published study, “The Report on an investigation into the small business sector... with specific reference to the factors that may retard the growth and development thereof.” I should also like to mention the report on the investigation into the levels of collective bargaining, the registration of trade-unions and the Industrial Court.

The hon Minister announced this morning that new offices are being opened to assist the unemployed and that another 16 are in the pipeline. The hon Minister also announced that sheltered employment would be utilized to a greater degree.

Mr Chairman, I could also refer to the formation of the National Training Board, assorted pieces of legislation to improve education and training, the subsidization of in-service training for the private sector, as well as the allowance for tax purposes, the training and replacement of the unemployed; and regional development, which is a tremendous undertaking. All this is being done in an effort to curb unemployment. We call to mind, inter alia, the founding of the Development Bank, that is not only to South Africa’s advantage, but is also of great value to the independent states, in fact to the whole of Southern Africa.

The establishment and development of small business ventures is important as well; in Britain during 1976, for example, 36% of the job opportunities in the private sector were created by the small business sector.

One has to accept that there is no instant solution to unemployment. As the hon member for Roodeplaat has said, two of the most important preconditions for the solution of this problem, however, are effective family planning and economic growth and development.

Mr Chairman, may I first of all add the congratulations of the NRP to the hon the Minister on his appointment as Minister of Manpower, and we welcome him here. His reputation precedes him. He may have had four portfolios before this one, but we noticed in his deliberations when he was Minister of those portfolios that he was an effective Minister, and we now welcome him to this portfolio of Manpower.

We also congratulate the department, the Director-General and his staff on the timeous production of the 1983 Manpower report. Not only the quantity of information but also the quality of information is something worthwhile. In particular I should like to congratulate the department on the layout of the report. I believe they have converted all the important aspects of manpower within the limitations of a report such as this extremely well. I believe that this kind of report will set the trend for future reports because not only do we want to review the activities of the past year, but we also want a reliable source of information. I believe in that respect, within the limitations of statistics, this report has done the department very proud, and we are grateful for it.

I also wish to say right at the beginning that the NRP finds it a sad occasion to have to say that we are missing the previous Minister of Manpower in the sense that his own personal character and his vision played a very important part in the progress that was made in industrial relations in South Africa. In no way would it however detract from the capabilities of the present hon Minister when I say that we will also miss the particular character of Fanie Botha, the previous Minister of Manpower.

Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister and also hon members have clearly identified the fact that unemployment is the most imperative problem in South Africa today. There is absolutely no question about it. The hon member for Roodeplaat told us earlier that he believes that there are approximately 300 000 unemployed people in our country at present. According to the statistics in the report there are 54 000 unemployed, but of course we know that there are 200 000 Blacks in particular each year who leave the schools and then cannot find employment. The reason why these 200 000 Blacks cannot find employment is because of the limited or negative growth in our economy in South Africa. In order to merely provide sufficient new job opportunities for those 200 000 people, we require a growth in the GDP of at least 5% per annum, and we all know that at this very moment we are steering towards a negative growth rate in South Africa, let alone a 5% positive growth rate. I believe there has been a backlog in unemployment for many years as well, which means that today we are facing the prospects of a tidal wave of unemployment, not only because of a lack of growth in the economy but also because of the population explosion which other hon members referred to here earlier on.

I believe that the President’s Council and the National Manpower Commission have done invaluable work in conjunction with universities and other institutions in attempting to identify and describe the size of the problem. Some have been as bold as to make recommendations for solutions to the under- and unemployment problem in South Africa. As commendable as those reports and those studies are, I believe that the time has now come for the hon the Minister and the Government to initiate a conference of interested bodies to see whether we cannot develop a positive strategy for employment in South Africa which will accommodate this very serious problem which we have at the moment and which will grow in the future.

We require a multi-disciplinary approach to solving the problem of under- and unemployment in South Africa today. It is not only the fiscus with its incentives for decentralization, it is not only the Department of Planning with its grand scheme for decentralization, it is not only the efforts in training which are being made by this department which are important, we require a multi-disciplinary approach to developing a strategy for employment practice in South Africa. We have an extremely complex situation here. The hon member for Alberton has just reminded us that we are at the interface of First World and Third World value systems. The very problem of over-population is a problem of the Third World. Unfortunately today, if we wish to remain competitive in the world markets in regard to prices for our commodities, we have to make use of mechanization, particularly in our mining industry. However, it is that high mechanization factor itself that is contributing towards the problems that we have of under- and unemployment in South Africa. Our tax incentives, our training programmes, our population retention factor at school, all contribute to this vexed problem that we are faced with.

I agree with the hon member for Pine-lands, with the hon member for Germiston and with those hon members who spoke before me that unless we are able to solve this problem, we are going to find a spill-over from the unemployment situation to social, economic and eventually to political problems in this country. I believe that it is so imperative and so urgent that I can only plead with the hon the Minister to do everything in his power to call this conference for the development of an employment strategy for South Africa as soon as possible. The people who must be represented there must certainly be the captains of industry, the people who actually provide the jobs, the money and the opportunities. Representatives from all Government departments, from chambers of commerce, the banking section, and from the White, Black, Coloured and Indian communities should attend this conference. The aim of this conference should not be to conduct an investigation and bring out a report. What we require is a conference where we will have an agenda which will last perhaps a week or ten days and from which will emerge a positive plan of action. What we require is a plan of action rather than an in-depth further study into the causes of the problem. We know what the dimensions of the problems are; what we require now is a strategy for action in order to attempt to overcome the problem.

I must also congratulate the Director-General and his department on the trend that they have been setting recently with their interaction with the private sector. I hope that the hon the Minister, like his predecessor, will also use those opportunities to liaise with management and with the captains of industry for better communication and understanding of what his department is doing and what the needs of commerce and industry are.

During the past few years I was very fortunate to have been involved in some of the meetings which were held for instance in Durban between the chambers of commerce, SEIFSA and Assocom and the hon the Minister’s department. These meetings were held behind closed doors; there was no publicity and fanfare with it but precisely because of that they were highly productive communication sessions.

I note in the report that the hon the Minister intends to continue in this trend, in fact to expand it and to have a greater degree of communication with industry. Only in that way can we overcome the problems and the prejudices that we have in a highly complex portfolio of industrial relations.

May I also say to the hon the Minister that it is apparent that South Africa requires a very specific and unique solution for all our manpower problems. The time is too short to elucidate on all those except to say that it is interesting to note from the report the wide variety of activities which the hon the Minister’s department is involved in. To a very large extent however the hon the Minister is in fact almost powerless to produce solutions to those problems. However, what the hon the Minister’s department can do, is to produce a framework within which it would be possible for those contracting parties involved in such industrial relations to actually find the solutions for the problems.

I want to agree with the hon member for Pinelands when I say that we have to be extremely careful in drawing up new legislation in the House prematurely before all the interested parties have had the opportunity to submit their recommendations and the hon the Minister’s department has tabled its own White Paper. The industrial relations situation is so sensitive and so potentially explosive that I believe that this is one case where we have to make haste very slowly, because what we do now will have very serious ramifications tomorrow on industrial peace in South Africa. That industrial peace itself is on a very tenuous base, on a very sensitive membrane of political unrest and of people who are at an economic disadvantage. Therefore, what this department does is extremely important and very sensitive and must be handled very carefully.

We notice from the statistics and from the annual report as well that an interesting situation exists in South Africa. The first time I realized this, was when I recently read this report. Contrary to one’s expectations, more than 82% of the factories in South Africa, employ less than 50 people. Surprisingly, of those 82% the highest number of factories are actually to be found in the Cape and Durban, and not in the Transvaal. The Transvaal is a very important source of employment through the mining sector but when one looks at the actual employment opportunities, they are to be found in the decentralized areas of Durban and of Cape Town.

Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at 14h30.

Mr Chairman, in the very short time left to me, I should like to just continue by saying to the hon the Minister in this Committee that those people who actually represent the bulk of the employers, those factories which employ less than 50 people, are the very kind of people who must be involved with any contemplated move towards a strategy for employment in South Africa, because they, together with the mining industry and the agricultural sector, create the employment opportunities. In this deliberation, we are going to have to solve very complex and unique problems in South Africa, because what we require, contrary to one’s expectations, is labour-intensive industries. Yet we have to compete with overseas markets, which are highly technical and mechanized. However, the dilemma of South Africa is not only to compete effectively with overseas companies and prices for export, but to be able to provide employment opportunities for the people of South Africa. I believe that this should actually be a higher priority than the constant drive to expand our markets outside South Africa. We are all for the latter, but not at the price of under- and unemployment in South Africa.

Mr Chairman, we as South Africans have had many investigations; many academic efforts have been put in and we have clearly identified the problem. We know the width of the unemployment problem, the depth of the unemployment problem and the size of the unemployment problem. What we require now, is a conference to find the solutions to those clearly defined problems. Hence, in winding up, may I once again appeal to the hon the Minister to make it a top priority for 1984-85 to call a conference of all concerned persons to determine a strategy for employment and the creation of employment opportunities.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Durban North made a very interesting speech, in the course of which he made a number of constructive suggestions, including the suggestion of a conference for labour strategy. I am sure the hon the Minister and his department will find this worthy of consideration. I am also in agreement with the hon member for Durban North that we do in fact need more labour-intensive industries and in this context, I welcomed the report of the National Manpower Commission on the investigation into the small business sector, which both in its formal and informal permutations is generally labour-intensive. I am sure that its guidelines will also be taken into consideration in the Government’s labour strategy, whether the conference that the hon member proposes is held in the foreseeable future or not.

I find myself in general agreement with most of the points made by the hon member for Durban North, but whilst I think that unemployment certainly is one of the gravest problems facing us today in South Africa, if not the gravest, it is not employment per se that is the problem, but it is the undersupply of skilled labour and the rather large over-supply of unskilled labour. This problem naturally stems very largely from the composition of our population which, as the hon member for Alberton has pointed out, consists of about one-fifth of the First World or developed population and four-fifths of the Third World or developing population. This latter component of the population is encumbered with it all the problems of Third World populations, including lack of skills and, of course, the population explosion.

*Mr Chairman, as the hon member for Durban North said, these factors entail that South Africa has to find at least 200 000 new jobs for new work-seekers annually. Personally I think the figure is closer to 300 000 but be that as it may, this is what has to be done if we have any intention of maintaining the present employment rate. Since these new work-seekers are of course unskilled people the existing unfavourable balance between skilled and unskilled manpower is, potentially, being increasingly disrupted. This gives rise to other problems as well. This unfavourable state of affairs is one of the main reasons for South Africa’s unfavourable productivity rate. The fact that our labour is relatively expensive entails that our manufactured goods are less competitive on the international markets. Of course all these factors contribute to our unfavourable rate of inflation.

Mr Chairman, it is also true that these adverse influences on our economy decrease in proportion to the skill of the work force. Not only does every skilled worker automatically create employment opportunities for other workers, but he or she also increases productivity per se. Since it has been clear for a long time that the increasing need for skilled manpower cannot be satisfied from the ranks of the First World component or by means of immigration, the obvious solution lies in the concentrated training of South Africa’s total manpower component. I find the enormous progress that has been made since the introduction of the new manpower dispensation in 1979 and particularly since the passing of the Manpower Training Act in 1981 encouraging and also to a large extent satisfactory. The establishment of the National Training Council in terms of this Act was a milestone marking the progress of orderly labour evolution and the development of our country’s entire labour force. It is also a cornerstone of South Africa’s future economic development.

Mr Chairman, in this regard I specifically want to mention my own constituency. At present there are two large training institutions in Benoni.

†Mr Chairman, Seifsa opened its training centre in Benoni last year; it was officially opened by the Director-General, Dr Van der Merwe. This centre trains people of all population groups in skills related to the iron, steel and engineering industries. I do not hesitate to say that it is certainly one of the best-equipped institutions of its kind in the country. The second institution is the Apex Group Training Centre, which, particularly since the training functions for Blacks were transferred to the Department of Manpower in 1980, has made great and rapid progress.

*Mr Chairman, there are large new workshops; classrooms are rapidly approaching completion, as are hostel facilities which are so important if those who attend courses there are to enjoy the maximum utilization of their training.

With regard to this colossal new extension I also want to pay tribute to the present Director of that institution, Mr Johan Fourie, under whose dynamic leadership this considerable extension over the past two years has taken place on such a scale that this centre has now also established a satellite centre in Alberton. Although this centre concentrates on training in the engineering industries, a large number of other industries from all sectors are interested in its courses; it does in fact train people throughout the whole spectrum, from petrol pump attendants to hotel staff. Even advanced courses in personnel administration and industrial psychology are being offered there for people in top management positions. Good progress has also been made with the training of unemployed people. As the hon the Minister announced this morning, handicapped people are also being trained there.

I do not think it is a coincidence that two large training institutions of this nature should be located in Benoni; I think this illustrates the fact that the industrialists of Benoni fully appreciate the value of training, are prepared to utilize existing facilities and are prepared to support them. I must also mention that there are quite a number of industries in Benoni which are already offering their own training courses.

Although Benoni certainly sets an example in this field I must add that I think the country-wide trend seems to be equally favourable. For example, the number of indentured apprentices increased from 28 000 in 1979 to more than 36 000 at the end of 1982. During the same period the number of people who attended courses at the group training centres increased from 8 500 to more than 14 000. The number of courses in respect of which training is provided by private training centres also increased from 650—a small figure—to more than 3 500 and the number of workers who received this training increased from just over 1 000 to 164 000. The number of courses in which training is provided by training schemes also increased from 1 800 in 1979 to more than 5 500.

Mr Chairman, this encouraging trend is continuing. It shows that there is wide support for the Government’s policy that all available manpower should be utilized in the best possible way, which, in turn, means that every worker who wants to work should be able to work and that his potential should be fully utilized. However, wide support for a policy and having a good policy is not enough. A great deal of its success depends upon the way in which it is carried out. In this regard I should like to congratulate the Director-General and his staff, who are doing excellent work in spite of the staff shortages mentioned in the annual report.

†Mr Chairman, in the few seconds remaining to me, I should like to congratulate the department on its annual report and I should also like to reiterate again that I found the report of the National Manpower Commission on the small business sector most interesting. I am sure that its recommendations are worthy of consideration. I think that we have come a very long way since the Carlton Conference with the establishment of the Small Business Corporation and the Council for the Promotion of Small Businesses.

Mr Chairman, as a matter of course I shall go along with what the hon member for Benoni has said. It is clear from the discussions so far that three specific bottlenecks have come to the fore. Firstly there is the problem of employee-employer relations in South Africa, secondly the question of unemployment and thirdly the question of productivity.

My colleague, the hon Minister, and the hon member for Durban North have exchanged quite a few ideas on unemployment. I just want to say that although we should definitely look to labour-intensive undertakings, the question that remains is whether the principal problem lies in the direction of our economic growth-rate and whether, if one wants to achieve a higher economic growth-rate, it does not go without saying that this can only be achieved with greater mechanization and fewer labour-intensive industries. One would possibly have to find a happy medium between the two.

Mr Chairman, I also want to express my thanks and appreciation for the fact that we obtained the report at an early stage. It is a pity that such a debate, with its limited number of chances we have to speak, does not allow enough time to do justice to the many facets and the wealth of data in that annual report. As other hon members have already done in this debate, I should also like to express a few thoughts on the matter of productivity.

The importance of productivity for South Africa surely cannot be overemphasized. In Sanlam’s Ekonomiese Oorsig of March 1983 this was stated clearly, and I quote:

This also manifests itself in the tenets of the National Productivity Institute, and I should like to take this opportunity of saying how very much I appreciate its excellent work. The NPI emphasizes in its annual report the necessity of labour productivity. One of its aims is the following:

I want to get back to the point I touched on a moment ago:

It is quite obvious that we have run into a tremendous problem here. Sanlam’s economic report expresses it clearly and succintly—and I quote:

The article goes on to state:

The NPI, through the implementation of its “Resource Allocation Strategies” concluded that a crisis had developed in the sphere of productivity. Unfortunately I do not have sufficient time, at this stage, to elaborate on this, but I would like to say I think it is absolutely essential for us to give serious consideration to the analyses in regard to this matter, analyses which have appeared in both the NPI’s annual report and elsewhere, and that we give urgent attention to what can be done in this regard. If we do not increase productivity, it goes without saying that we shall not be able to compete on foreign markets, nor curb the inflation rate and create sufficient job opportunities in South Africa.

Two relevant factors which the Sanlam report highlights are the issues of the chronic shortage of trained personnel and the impact of the narrowing of the wage gap. I am afraid that in regard to narrowing the wage gap, there probably is very little we can do about it. In other words, it looks as if we are stuck with a possibly unavoidable problem. The new labour system, especially the Black workers’ increased bargaining capacity through access to trade unions, is likely to put ever-increasing pressure on the wage and salary structure of our country. It looks as if we have no choice but to accept this premise. It appears that we will also have to give consideration to the salary structure of Whites, especially those employed in the public sector. Let me now leave it at that. The question is whether we, as members of Parliament, are not being overpaid. Parliament has the advantage of being in a non-competitive position.

Various reports on the question of manpower shortages have appeared over the past few years. I refer here specifically to the Manpower Commission’s important report on shortages in high-level manpower. That report appeared in 1980 and, not unnaturally, I should like to hear from the hon the Minister how much has really been done in this connection over the past four or five years and what our present position is in regard to this level. If we cannot bring about a drastic improvement in that high level of manpower, it seems to me we are heading for economic disaster. In this connection the details of the National Training Board’s activities which are furnished in its annual report, especially in chapter 4, are undoubtedly of great importance. I noted the activities of the National Training Board with great appreciation. Table 4.1.5 on page 57 shows that in 1982 525 500 and in 1983 505 000 individuals were provided with training in one form or another; an excellent achievement indeed, I would say. It is a pity that some employers apparently abused the privileges made available by these schemes—to such an extent that the Minister of Finance was obliged to step in hand and curtail some of those privileges. It is clear, however, that this is likely to be one of the Department of Manpower’s most important tasks. I would say that there are two activities of the department which predominate. The first is the question of the reconciliation of employer/employee interests and the second the supervision of our manpower training. It is in this connection that I want to say that it was with great disappointment that I learned of the deplorable—it can only be described as that—manpower situation in the department itself, to which the hon the Minister himself referred. I want to ask whether the position of the department’s Vote should not be considerably improved, for apart from a few departments, that of Parliament, the Prime Minister, Audit and the Commission of Administration, this department received the smallest appropriation grant of all State departments. I want to tell hon members that I consider this department to be one of absolute key importance. I just want to ask whether the time has not perhaps arrived to give serious consideration to the appropriation of the department with a view to improving the manpower situation in the department itself, so as to ensure the proper training of our manpower.

Mr Chairman, it gives me pleasure to follow the hon member Prof Olivier. He referred to a few matters I shall come back to. He referred inter alia to our productivity problem in South Africa. I think it is a major problem for all of us, a problem which worries one when one takes cognizance of the fact that one has to compete against countries that have, in fact, succeeded in maintaining productivity.

He also referred to our problem in connection with increasing manpower shortages. In this same debate two years ago, I made an appeal for attention to be given to ways in which the training of entrepreneurs could be encouraged. If I remember correctly, I said on that occasion that they were the generators of employment. I think we are all concerned about this fact, but I shall refer to this again at a later stage of my speech.

In South Africa we are dealing with a coordinating manpower policy and we are giving intensive attention to our total manpower needs. We are looking in particular at our medium- and long-term needs. I foresee problems in the short term and for the year 1990. This is basically my theme. I think that with a view to the short term, we must give very serious attention to employment and the planning of requirements, by means of which people can be accommodated.

There are a few facts I should like to touch on in passing. One of these is the fact that the profile of the workers in South Africa is changing dramatically. It is the distribution of qualifications among people in all the other population groups which is changing a great deal. In 1970 only 7,8% of the Black population had a higher than Std 6 qualification, compared with 67% of the Whites. But it is when we look at numbers that we really notice this change. It is estimated that in 1990 there will be 61 000 White matriculants compared with 71 000 Black matriculants. In other words, it is expected that at that stage the number of Black matriculants will already start exceeding the number of White matriculants, we shall be dealing with a totally different kind of person in the labour market. If one compares this with the 36 000 Whites who passed matric in 1970 as against the plus minus 2 400 Blacks who did so, one sees what a dramatic change is taking place in the profile of the worker in the labour market.

In addition the number of students at institutions for tertiary education for non-Whites is increasing rapidly.

It is significant that at this stage Black people are still turning to and giving preference to training in literature and philosophy. About 50% of all Black students are still studying these courses. A problem could also arise from this in future.

As far as manpower planning is concerned, it is particularly those professions which must lead to the provision of employment which should receive attention. It is estimated that in South Africa 200 engineers and 90 engineering technicians per million of the population are being trained annually. If one compares this with one of our trading partners, Nationalist China, one finds that that country trains 360 engineers and 580 engineering technicians per million of the population. If one considers this ratio, one sees that we have a shortage of those people who must be the providers of work, those people who must eventually become entrepreneurs, who must flow into our labour system.

Economic survival and therefore successful competition will in future be determined to an increasing extent by technological progress and achievement. If we take into consideration that the number of economically active Black persons is increasing percentage-wise and that they are still inclined to receive their education in non-technical fields, it is clear that the problem is escalating.

The level at which extraordinarily heavy demands are also being made on White numbers, is, as the hon member Prof Olivier also mentioned, that of administrators and managers. If a great change does not take place in this field we in South Africa shall not be able to utilize our country’s potential to the optimum. In order to ensure everyone in South Africa of an acceptable standard of living, we shall simply have to succeed in drawing high-level manpower from all sectors of our population. The initial prejudice that existed against people of colour as far as skilled manpower was concerned has in theory been eliminated by means of the amendments to our labour legislation. The abolition of job reservation formally opened the door for non-Whites to enter the field of skilled labour as well. We can only hope that there will be a considerable increase in the number of apprentices from this large source of labour.

As far as managerial posts are concerned, I think we still have a few hurdles to overcome before possible prejudice against people of colour is eliminated. If they want to survive economically, South Africans will simply have to accept that merit—and merit only—can determine appointments to high-level posts. Only when people of colour in South Africa experience achievement in higher posts, will they turn to training in technical fields and for managerial posts. This will only happen if we see to it here that these people are in fact employed in these managerial posts. Then, instead of receiving training in literature and philosophy, they will began to turn as well to training in posts that can serve as an attraction to them. [Interjections.] The hon member for Rissik is becoming excited about nothing. When merit and merit alone must be the criteria, a man like him is justified in being afraid, but I am not afraid. I have always been willing to be judged on merit.

Manpower planning is of equally great importance to all organizations and sectors. The maintenance, development and utilization of human resources may not take place on an unplanned and ad hoc basis. That is why it is essential for all relevant bodies constantly to plan and determine their future labour needs as accurately as possible. If this can be done, it will assist the education authorities in their planning of courses. Then, too, individuals will have an indication of job opportunities which will enable them to plan their careers.

As I have already said, we have a problem with the provision of high-level manpower in South Africa. The Whites simply cannot meet all the requirements. There are certain restrictions in South Africa which arise from our multinationalism. Ninety per cent of high-level manpower is drawn from the ranks of the Whites. Our unfavourable management ratio of 1:52, compared with the USA’s ratio of 1:10, makes it difficult for us to compete. We have a shortage of skilled manpower.

Unemployment and optimum utilization of manpower is another problem, as is the unfavourable distribution of qualifications in the non-White population group. These problems are receiving attention at high level and the necessary steps are being taken to solve them. Unfortunately the problem is that we shall only achieve results in the medium and the long term with the steps we are taking at the moment. The problem after 1990 is one which cannot be solved overnight. If organizations have not used the present recession for training and replanning, I foresee great problems when the economy recovers. Because we in South Africa are faced with a tremendous increase in the number of job seekers, the vast majority of whom are unskilled, our short-term problem is so much greater. It is the entrepreneurs in particular who will have to help us to make the grade at this stage. Sometimes one gets the impression that some of our entrepreneurs in South Africa are not always aware of the preference which should be given to labour-intensive projects. Now that certain tax benefits on machinery are being abolished, one wonders whether there should not be more encouragement in respect of labour-intensive undertakings. 1990 is just around the corner. The effect of steps taken in 1980 to correct our labour programme for the future will not yet apply then. If South Africa wants to survive economically we need urgent short-term bridging measures, and these are labour intensive undertakings.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Springs referred mainly to manpower planning and he stated inter alia that progress in the field of manpower should be made mainly on merit. In this regard one would have no problems with this in a homogeneous state, but he neglected to point out the problems which arise in a heterogeneous, plural society such as we have in South Africa, when demands for political rights follow progress to the upper hierarchies of the labour sphere. This is a problem the hon member did not even address, as his hon leader says nowadays.

I should like to congratulate the hon the Minister on his appointment. On behalf of the Conservative Party I wish him everything of the best in his continued career in this department. His is a demanding post, one in which he will sometimes find himself in a mine-field of conflicting interests that he will have to weigh up against each other. He will also become involved in delicate situations. He has said so himself, he said so this morning, and he appreciates the fact that the major field of this department is the relations aspect. I think it is gratifying to learn that both employer organizations and employee organizations have so much confidence in his department. His task calls for great insight and wisdom and patience and charisma. Mainly as a result of the actions of his predecessor there has been alienation between the Minister of Manpower and the White worker in particular. In the opinion of the Conservative Party it is the main task of the Minister to pour oil on troubled water in this respect.

I want to refer to a letter I have here in front of me, which I received from a person, and which typifies the uneasiness and lack of security among our people nowadays. This person says:

I want to refer to a report which appeared in yesterday’s Rapport on a speech made in Dallas by Prof Coetzee of the University of Potchefstroom. In this speech one sees the fears which are beginning to come to the fore among our White workers, the fears among the Whites as such. I am quoting as he was reported:

Then he makes certain predictions which to a major extent fill those of us in the Conservative Party with dismay. He goes on to say:

He is paving the way for joint school education. He goes on to say:

The place of residence is therefore also an issue. These are the thinkers in the upper hierarchy of the National Party who are guiding the National Party, also as far as labour matters are concerned. I also want to refer to what Prof Wiehahn has to say about this, but I shall do that later.

I should also like to convey the Conservative Party’s congratulations for this annual report. As was rightly pointed out, this is the first time that it has been available and could be studied prior to this debate.

We are particularly gratified to notice the drop in the number of strikes. But we must guard against reaching the injudicious and superficial conclusion that this is owing to effective legislation. In the first place the legislation initiated in 1979 has had a troubled passage and it was and still is full of loopholes. A select committee of this honourable House is in fact battling at the moment to plug up certain loopholes. Consequently a drop in the number of strikes is mainly the result of the economic valley in which the RSA finds itself at this stage. On page 23 of the annual report this point is also admitted, namely that the downturn in the economy is a major reason for the decrease in the number of strikes during the past year under review.

I want to refer to Prof Wiehahn. I do not think he is quite correct in alleging in consequence of the coal miners’ strikes in Britain that workers must be given a greater interest in the economy. This is supposed to be an important reason why trade-unions are reluctant to accede to strikers’ demands. This would make sense in a homogeneous state. He mentioned that workers are becoming more well-to-do; that they own houses; that they are paying off hire-purchase contracts and therefore have more to lose than a few decades ago. We cannot find any fault with every people and/or population group moving up in the hierarchy in this way in its own separate territory, but if this takes place in this way in a situation in which only 12 out of every 100 workers in White South Africa are going to be Whites by the year 2000, then as far as we are concerned the writing is really on the wall, if Prof Wiehahn’s process continues unhindered. The increasing demands for political rights will lead to disputes and conflict. Prof Wiehahn must also remember that the malcontents in the United Kingdom are up against a strong and determined Government. It is very important that when one hears talk about residential separation being an obstacle to development and amicable working relations, about school separation being an obstacle, about workers meeting one another for the first time at the outset of their working careers, it does not sound as if we are dealing here with a Government that is prepared to take strong action in the labour field against any of these demands which may be made of it.

As I have said, the Conservative Party appreciates this comprehensive and exhaustive annual report. The re-emphasizing of minimum Government interference, which was also referred to in the report of the Manpower Commission, is a matter we have already debated at length in the past and in my next speech I shall have more to say about other aspects, in other words, about the safety of the worker and the relationship between employer and employee.

Mr Chairman, the hon member said that treatment on merit was acceptable in a homogeneous population, but could not work in South Africa. The hon member is arguing on the basis of a totally incorrect premise. After all, we have created independent countries in South Africa. Does he think we are going to stop halfway? The hon member is seeing spectres where there are none.

Did you listen to what the hon member for Springs said?

I listened very carefully to what he said.

These friends of ours are sitting there as a result of hatred. The hon member for Brakpan revealed that here, in his reference to Fanie Botha. But today I want to tell him that Fanie Botha was one of the best Ministers who ever served South Africa. I say he was one of the best ever to serve South Africa. Let me tell them now, that if he and the Government had not begun in good time to defuse the explosive situation in 1979 there could have been a disaster. But he looked far into the future and he only did good things for South Africa. I want to give the hon member for Brakpan this piece of advice: Cease this bitterness, it will not get you anywhere. It will not get you anywhere, either in politics or in South Africa. The Anglo-Boer War is over.

You were never there.

My people were.

Which people?

My father-in-law and my father.

Do not boast of what your father or your father-in-law did, where were you?

I had not been born yet.

Where are you now?

Where are you? I am still standing where I have always stood. Let me now tell these friends of ours: This is the same accusation they are levelling at the Prime Minister. [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is it permissible for an hon member to refer to another hon member and ask him whether his father was a “joiner”?

Order! Who asked that question?

Mr Chairman, I did not say that the hon member was a “joiner”. I asked whether the hon member’s father was a “joiner” in consequence of the reference to the hon member Mr Van Staden.

Order! That is not unparliamentary. The hon member may proceed.

Mr Chairman, today these friends of ours are accusing South Africa and this Prime Minister, in particular, of working towards integration and of leaving the workers in the lurch. The hon the Prime Minister has represented the George constituency since 1948. That is a period of 36 years. When he was elected, the forest workers were the poorest of the poor. They were as poor as church mice. They did not own anything. They worked under dreadful conditions. I have had the privilege to read the correspondence of the hon the Prime Minister as the MP for George. Now I want to tell those friends of ours in the CP that the upliftment of the Afrikaner really began in the George constituency. From then on the Afrikaner became prosperous. Now I want to ask the hon members of the CP: Will a man like that destroy his own handiwork?

Yes.

He will never do that. Let me tell hon members something: He is still following in the footsteps of the National Party as he has always done. Let me tell you another thing today: It is the National Party that picked the worker up out of the mire. The first trade union in South Africa was the printing industry’s trade union, which was established in 1838. Do hon members know about the battle waged by the workers in South Africa? Martial law was declared four times and workers were shot. Who can forget the bloody fighting of 1922? In 1952 the National Party came for ward and created order in the ranks of the workers so that they could do their own thing. Employer and employee were brought closer together by a National Party Government. It is easy for hon members of the CP to talk, but in the ’forties the communists took over the trade unions in South Africa and they were totally in their hands. The United Party was fighting a war, but the communist party and the communist trade unions did not take part.

Was Oom Koot also involved in the war?

Oh, go and bark outside. Of course, I was not, you know I was not.

I suppose your father was.

Order!

That colleague must be careful I do not begin taking the skeletons out of his closet.

Go ahead.

They were totally in the hands of the Communist Party. In the early ’fifties a National Party Government rescued them.

Under the leadership of Hertzog.

Hertzog was in 1924.

No, I worked with him. It was Dr Albert Hertzog.

Give me strength! This National Party Government lifted the worker of South Africa out of the mire. He made a human being of him. At that stage all we Afrikaners were guilty. We emulated foreigners and referred to the workers class in South Africa. I am one of the people who did away with this. There is no workers class in South Africa. There are workers. Do you know what the story about the workers class led to? It led to we Afrikaners forgetting how to use our hands, because the people were ashamed to do so. They attended colleges and universities, but did not study for professions in which they had to work with their hands. To a great extent this is still the case today. We shall have to wean our people away from this. All National Party Governments have taken care of the interests of the worker. This Government has also created order and brought employer and employee together again. It will continue to do so. Let me tell those hon friends of ours in the CP something: They can continue to play a political game if they like. The workers will not leave the National Party Government in the lurch because they trust it. They have come a long way together. It is this Government that has helped them. I want to tell the hon members of the CP that I once had occasion to say that the Progressive Party consisted of the old English jingoes.

Oh no, please!

There he says it again. They lost an “empire” because they were so selfish and did not want to share anything. Now I want to tell the hon members of the PFP: Look in the mirror, then you will see yourselves. The Afrikaner jingoes are sitting over there. There they are. They do not want to share anything with anyone either. They want to keep everything for themselves and that is why I am telling them today: They are now involved in this militancy. Militancy has never succeeded anywhere in the world. Napoleon failed, Hitler failed, Mussolini failed.

We were together in the OB.

It does not work.

Were you also in the Ossewabrandwag?

Yes, but I soon discovered my mistake.

How long were you in the Ossewabrandwag?

Six months, Only six months. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I do not have time now to deal with the subject which the hon member has just dealt with.

†Mr Chairman, whenever demographers or economists get together to discuss the future of South Africa, the statistics on unemployment always cast a shadow of doom over the proceedings. At these gatherings people seem to accept the structural unemployment phenomenon with the same sense of inevitability as the standard buffet lunch that normally follows. Unfortunately they tend to forget it as rapidly as the memory of another bottle of Grand Cru.

The way to deal with the problem of unemployment of a structural nature is of course job creation. I would like to suggest that the normal way to deal with unemployment, namely the trade-off between inflation and unemployment does not enter into the arena of job creation. This trade-off is in no way creative, it is only manipulative, and deals really with unemployment of a cyclical nature. The White Paper on a Strategy for the Creation of Employment Opportunities as well as the President Council’s report on Measures which restrict the functioning of the free market orientated system in South Africa points to some of the structural problems in the South African work force. Some of these problems in our manpower pool are of such a nature that one can in fact apply creative solutions to those problems without hitting ideological constraints. I should like to mention some of these. Firstly there is a shortage of highly skilled and professional people. Since this is not a category of workers that one can produce in a short time through crash programmes, the short-term solution lies in two areas, namely, firstly, immigration that can obviously assist to a limited degree and, secondly, to get more out of what we have. To increase the ratio of lower level workers to managerial and professional manpower there are certain strategies and policies to which I should like to draw the hon the Minister’s attention. The first one is to concentrate rather than decentralize to get an economy of scale and synergetic interaction, in other words many smaller firms can use the same managerial, financial and other professional services if they are in a place where they can use it, whereas in a decentralized situation the load is spread over too wide an area. Secondly, while high technology in developed countries created a structural problem of unemployment in the highly skilled and managerial jobs, in South Africa it means merely reducing the number of vacancies, or in fact to reduce this element of our structural problem.

Investment allowances and the taxation system in general favours investment in capital goods that reduce job opportunities for lower skills. That is the irony of the whole situation. I want to suggest to the hon the Minister that he should plead for special incentives to encourage investment in high technology that makes managerial jobs more efficient. Computers and other aids can spread this limited resource that we have.

Thirdly, at the same time the hon the Minister may as well add his voice to the call for a system of individual taxation of husbands and wives so as to tap the resource of highly skilled women and perhaps also incentives to the private sector with regard to half-day or part-time employment of women.

A further element of the structural problem is the relatively low level of training of our work force. The hon member for Roodeplaat as well as the hon member Prof Olivier referred to this and the fact that this low productivity reduces our competitiveness in world markets and therefore also our ability to create more jobs. But if workers are not able to work smarter we could all work harder. This implies that we must reduce the ratio of capital and management cost to labour cost. This again implies certain policies. If one wants to reduce one’s unit cost one should follow an expansion policy that says double shift rather than duplicate. This spreads the capital and the management over longer runs, obsolescence problems are reduced, the demand for infrastructure is reduced and better use is made of transport and other infrastructural facilities.

You are not employing more people.

Of course, by not adding more capital you can now have two guys over which you write off the same amount of capital and managerial staff. Yet there again the taxation system when one wants to expand favours capital investment or duplication while no benefits in terms of taxation and incentives accrue to the firm who wants to work harder. I should like therefore that the hon the Minister should again look at it and perhaps the fact that if a firm decides to double shift, he has, in fact, created jobs at no capital cost and that he should be able to write off another portion of the capital cost on having created jobs in such a manner. I therefore think that the hon the Minister should have a very serious look at taxation, incentives and decentralization policies so that the benefits of working harder can be realized. I will not go into details, because it is not always quantified, but it is also clear from these two papers that I referred to, that ideological constraints, past and present, form part of the structural problem. Some of these are: Firstly, the lack of horizontal mobility due to influx control. There is the lack of family housing, schools, etc. In short, it is a lack of an urbanization policy mainly affecting Blacks. The solution of this problem is not primarily the function of this Minister, but being saddled with the function of the utilization of our manpower, the hon the Minister must impress on his Cabinet that some of the ideological objectives are in direct conflict with his own aims. Secondly, there is the Group Areas Act, as it affects Coloureds and Indians, especially with regard to their participation in commerce and industry, but also in terms of horizontal mobility. May I add that many Indian people in Natal would sincerely like to settle elsewhere in the country and could alleviate the shortage of skilled manpower in areas such as the PWV area, the Western Cape, Eastern Transvaal, or even Bloemfontein. In the interim, because of a lack of group areas for them to settle in, every week you can see carloads of Indian people having to commute on a weekly basis between Durban and Pietermaritzburg, to the PWV area, Eastern Transvaal, Northern Natal, etc. There is also talk of opening certain defined CBD areas and yet the Department of Internal Affairs merrily keeps on evicting traders all over the country. I wish that the Minister would appeal to his colleague to stop this, pending the final decision, as again this is contrary to the needs of the utilization of manpower. Thirdly, there is the decentralization programme—I have touched on it earlier on—but this require large sums of money to achieve little more than to move jobs around the country without actually creating new jobs. In this regard, one can look only at the report of President’s Council and at many others. On page 88, it says the following:

With the current state of the economy and given that there is a structural problem of unemployment, every cent that is spent in this country that is not economically justified, is against the objectives of job creation and getting us into the world market. One can apply creative solutions to some of the problems, but the last few I have mentioned, have an ideological basis and we can only hope that the NP, being bent on a course of reform, will now actually put their money where their mouths are.

Mr Chairman, I believe that the hon member for Greytown will excuse me if I do not follow up on what he said. I also believe that the hon Minister will adequately reply to the aspects he touched upon.

The Government’s aim with the Department of Manpower is the optimum development, utilization and preservation of the country’s manpower. The provision of R92,3 million for the 1984-85 Appropriation represents an increase of 30% on that of the previous year. The hon Minister has already referred to this aspect. This considerable increase illustrates the high priority given to this service by the Government. During his budget speech this year the hon the Minister of Finance put the matter in the following terms:

The Government’s aim regarding manpower training can, in short, be put as follows:

The fact that an amount of R23,9 million was appropriated for the 1984-85 financial year, proves the high priority once again being accorded to the training programme. This constitutes approximately 40% of the department’s budget for this year. The State also grants generous incentives to employers who have their workers’ skills improved in accordance with approved training programmes.

The Manpower Training Act, 1981—to which the hon member for Benoni has already referred—establishes the legal framework in terms of which the Government executes its manpower training policy. One of the most important aims of the Act embodies the establishment of a National Training Board. The establishment of the board was a milestone on the road to orderly evolution in the labour field in South Africa and a cornerstone for the country’s future economic development. In terms of the Manpower Training Act the board can designate committees to implement its functions.

One of these committees is the In-service Training Committee. In-service training can be defined as training which has been systematically planned and is formally presented by a trainer within the organization, or externally on behalf of the organization. It therefore includes any activity aimed at the systematic development of the attitude, knowledge and/or proficiency required by a person in order to execute a given task or do certain work efficiently.

There are four aspects of the Committee for In-service Training which I would now like to bring under the attention of the hon members. I refer to page 35 of the annual report of the department.

The first matter is the attention given to guidelines regarding the content of training programmes in labour relations. I am delighted to see that the guidelines will be published during the course of the year. Labour relations can be seen in both a narrower and wider context. In the wider sense of “industrial relations” one is dealing with relations between employer and employees. This more often manifests itself in employee organizations, in other words trade unions, and employers. In the narrower sense it is a matter of the relations between the individual employer—mostly in the workplace itself—and his employees. It is generally called personnel relations. It is therefore not only productivity, but also labour peace, which is largely dependent on the effectiveness with which labour relations are handled. Because labour relations cover a wide and complex field and can potentially lead to a conflict situation, the relevant training of all interested parties is essential. In South Africa there is no doubt a great need for labour relations. This need is felt over a wide front, and both employers and employees are effected by it. It is, however, important for the system of free enterprise, with a minimum of Government interference, to apply in labour relations training. The role of the State will be largely limited to promoting the relevant training, while the initiative for the actual training as such will have to come from the private sector.

The second important matter receiving attention is uniform standards for the evaluation of management courses submitted by registered training centres and schemes for approval. The subcommittee covers the various levels of management, from supervisors to top management. In the enjoyable and peaceful atmosphere that we have here, I thought fit to quote Prof C W H Boshoff. Yes, you heard correctly: Prof Carel Boshoff of Sabra fame once pointed out that in the year 2000 overall population growth could have reached 45 000 000. On that occasion he said the following about additional labour needs:

In this regard I agree, to a certain extent, with the hon member for Springs. I quote further:

This is in the year 2000:

Training of our management potential is obviously of the utmost importance.

Thirdly there is another important scheme—the hon Minister referred to it—and that is the training of work-seekers under the age of 30 years who have low educational qualifications and limited working experience. Unemployed people of all population groups are considered for this training. However, financing plays a big role in this scheme, and the extent of the scheme depends on the funds appropriated for this purpose. The hon Minister referred to the fact that during 1983 3 852 work-seekers were trained. Thirty-three of these were Whites, 386 Coloureds, 22 Asians and 3 411 members of the Black population groups. After completion of the training, 2 301 of the 3 852 were employed.

The fourth and last important matter on which the Committee for In-service Training started during the past year was that involving research into the establishment of a national strategy for training. In developing such a strategy the economic, physical and social development plans of the Government will be taken into account. This investigation is surely one of the most important matters on which the committee is working. With the limited sources of finance available to us, it is of the utmost importance that we co-ordinate our actions, especially in respect of the improvement of the quality of our labour force.

Mr Chairman, I conclude with the words of our hon Minister of Manpower:

Mr Chairman, when one deals with labour, one is dealing with something on which man is dependent for his survival. Today I should like to tell this hon Minister, with whom I have served, for many years, both at provincial level and in Parliament, that we are very glad that he has been appointed to this position. I also want to congratulate him on the fact that his parents could be present here today. Many years ago it was also my privilege to meet them. I should like to wish him everything of the best because he has a very difficult task to perform.

When labour has to confront the world at large, a situation such as that in South Africa is an extremely difficult one. It is almost humanly impossible to explain the South African situation successfully in a broad international context. One cannot explain to people in the outside world why one has certain structures, because if one says that when it comes to equality one does not only look at people’s abilities, one finds oneself in the doldrums. Unfortunately we in South Africa cannot say today that it has been NP policy over the years. If the NP were to resort to that, it would encounter many problems.

If one were to look what a people is made up of and on what it bases its existence, one would see that it is made up of what its labourers can produce for it. It is the individual’s ability in the labour field that makes a people strong. Even if it does have all the necessary minerals, they must still be mined. It is through the process of labour that one creates either a rich or a poor country. If, after many years, the foundations underlying one’s workers begin to tremble, then this affects the people as a whole. Do not let a finger be pointed at us. There are different ways. There are ways in which one can be protective towards one’s people, sheltering them to a certain extent, and there is also the open market. Entering the open market, we shall all find that we do not have enough time to make adjustments. We are entering a difficult period. Let us just have a look at training. Training in this respect costs us about R17 000 million per annum, while the production over the same period has increased by 0,04%. What percentage of the 505 000 trained people are White?

But one trains workers.

Wonderful! That is the kind of logic I get from the hon member for Hercules. They are workers. In other words, does that hon member want to tell me that his party is now moving so close to the realms of equality that White, Black and all the other colours will only be workers in their eyes? [Interjections.] If it is so, the hon member must now please stand up and take a seat over here with the Progressive Party.

No, that is nonsense.

Yes, that is Progressive Party policy. That hon member must openly say where he stands.

But one trains workers, what else?

Just a moment. You are now dealing with an intelligent fellow. Do not interrupt me. Wait till you get to the C class again. The fact is simply that when it comes to throwing open the doors, whether in the sphere of training facilities or whatever, the Whites will, in the course of time, be submerged by the masses.

Do you see the Black impi’s, my people?

The White man must be swamped by numbers. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members must please give the hon member an opportunity to complete his speech. The hon member did not interrupt anyone.

The moment one loses the anchoring ties of labour in society, 16% of the workers are lost in the process and must then be given State aid. This applies to any nation anywhere in the world. It is a fact that has been proven throughout the world. 16,5% of the people are above the average of 43%, and in any State 16,5% are in need of care...

And are the 16% Blacks?

Oh, would the hon member not put his questions to me at a later stage? In a homogeneous society that 16%, who are lost in the process, are not a major problem, because there are all sorts of unskilled jobs they can do. Here with us, however, it is a different matter. If White people had to start at the bottom, sweeping floors, while there are Black labourers, one would have problems. One would, for many years, periodically have ructions. Over the years the National Party itself applied the policy of labour protection. So hon members on that side must not take me to task. We had a policy of labour protection for the Whites. I went along with you for 34 years, dear brethren. Tell me now why you are upbraiding me? I grew up in a system in which Whites had protection in the labour field. Throughout the years I have taught my people to work harder. National Party members of Parliament told those people: We will protect you right to the very end. And now? Now you throw these people into deep water. It is not right as far as the less privileged are concerned.

One should throw you into deep water.

Certainly, throw me in if you want to. I have been expecting the National Party to do something like that at some or other time. [Interjections.]

Order! Hon members must not sidetrack the hon member for Langlaagte like that.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

The hon member Mr Van Staden, a man for whom I have a great deal of respect, told the hon members of the battle that Hertzog, Harry Klopper, Ellis, Lucas Barnard and I myself had, in or on mines in Johannesburg, organizing the corps of workers into taking a stand against the Solly Sackses and others of that era. What were we fighting for then? Not for mixed trade unions. No, for completely unmixed, independent trade unions. All I want to say today is: Understand the workers if they do not want to walk blindly into this new dispensation. Do not get angry with them if they take a stand. Understand their position. At the moment the National Party is in the process of completely changing the situation on the factory floor. So do not be angry with the workers if they do not want to be part of it, because the fact is that what is happening at present is not what they were promised over the years. We can say that international pressure necessitates certain actions on the part of the Government, and that the necessary changes should be made, but let us be honest and tell those people that we have now adopted a new policy. At least be honest, like Pik Botha. He is not afraid. He at least tells people what is happening. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, it was not particularly interesting to listen to the hon member for Langlaagte. I had difficulty following him because he came up with the term “people” (“volk”) again and even went on to refer to mining as well. If the people he was referring to is the Afrikaner people, I just want to say to him that surely the Afrikaner, too, needs all the other population groups in this country to help mine our minerals. The hon member also said a lot of other things. He said that it had been proved throughout the world that 16% of the population is above average. I do want to ask him, though, whether, in our set-up, the 16% he mentioned are all Whites, and whether he will concede that people of colour could be included in that 16% and that there could be people of colour among the remaining 84%.

May I answer you now?

No, the hon member has already had his turn to speak. The hon member carried on as if we wanted to take all Whites’ positions away from them. The hon member for Langlaagte and any other member of his party must just come forward and give us the name of any White who has been discharged and whose position was given to a person of colour. We want the name of just one White worker in this country to whom this has happened. The converse is also true. No position has been taken away from a Coloured and no position has been taken away from an Asian and no position has been taken away from a Black and given to a White. That is why I am asking hon members to bring us the names of Whites whose livelihood has been taken from them and given to people of colour, so that those Whites are now without jobs and without food and are unable to care for their children. Why do they not give us the names? Why do they not go to the hon the Minister of Manpower and say to him that there is an unfair practice? I shall tell the Committee why they do not do it. It is because they cannot name one person to whom this has happened. There is not one such person in this country.

However, I do not want to talk about manpower today. I want to follow up on what the hon members for Germiston District and Pinelands said about manpower, and I want to talk about “womanpower”. The role played by women in the labour market is much more extensive than most of us realize. We should never underestimate this role. In my short life I have learnt that one should never underestimate women unless, of course, it is their weight or age that is being estimated.

Let us look at women’s role in our labour market. The latest available figures, which I am quoting, are those of 1981. More up-to-date figures are not available and I shall remark on that later.

In the professional/semi-professional and technical category there were 107 513 White women, 29 061 Coloured women, 5 857 Asian women and 75 503 Black women. Of course, this figure includes teachers as well as nurses. What is extremely interesting in this regard is that as against the 107 513 White professional/semi-professional and technical women, there are 201 261 White men in the same occupational groups. Therefore, White women constitute about 35% of the professional/semi-professional group. In the case of the Coloureds there are 29 061 Coloured women in this occupational group as against 17 213 men. So in this case the women constitute 63% of this particular occupational group. In the case of the Asians, women constitute 34% of this occupational group (5 857 women as against 11 490 men) and in the case of Blacks, the women in this occupational category constitute almost 69% of the total. Adding up all the groups, we have a total of 217 934 women as against 264 470 men. This shows that women constitute slightly more than 45% of this professional/semi-professional and technical occupational group.

It is also important to mention that professional/semi-professional women constitute 17,03% of the total number of economically active women, while the figure for men is only 6,25%. Of course, this figure does not include the agricultural sector and the domestic work sector.

Therefore, it is very clear to us that women are a powerful factor in the labour field and that we should take note of this factor. If we look at the latest trends it is also clear that over the past year or two the proportion of women has increased and that they may soon constitute more than 50% of the labour force in this professional category. It is important, too, that we consider the position in other countries and take note of the top professional positions women hold in government service as well as in companies, right down to positions as manual labourers. Nor should we forget that the Israeli army, for example, absolutely depends on its woman power. We find that women are leaders in various fields today. For example, there are women who are Prime Ministers, women who are judges and women who are businesspeople in charge of companies. There are even women who act as ministers of religion. We find that they have proved their skills in every field and that they can be relied on.

I therefore want to make an appeal to the business world today. Since our Government has recognized women by removing discriminating references from our legislation, I think that where these prejudices still exist in the professional and commercial world they can now finally be removed so that we may enable women to take their rightful place in all spheres and wherever they are able to do so. In this regard I am tempted to agree with the hon member for Pinelands, who said that in future we should perhaps no longer refer to the Department of Manpower, but rather to the Department of Womanpower. However, then we shall have discrimination in reverse, and I wonder whether one should not consider changing the name of this department to the Department of Human Resources, to enable us to get away from the term “manpower”. The same applies when we speak of relations. We do not refer to manpower relations but to labour relations. That is why my plea is that we should render the name of the department more descriptive by perhaps calling it the Department of Human Resources.

I should like to pay tribute to women as a source of labour today. Over the years they have... increasingly become a force to be reckoned with, and today we cannot manage without them, nor can the world’s wheels turn without them. In the labour field they are sometimes the most venomous, sometimes the most useful and sometimes the most vicious people, but definitely always the cutest.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Stilfontein made an interesting speech. I have a feeling his wife must be somewhere in the House, but nonetheless it was a very constructive speech and points to the necessity for a country which is very short of skilled labour to use this reservoir of people who have so many professional and other skills.

In recent times this Government has spent a great deal of money and effort in the promotion of the small business sector. Why is this? After all, almost by definition this sector should be selfgenerating and should be producing entrepreneurs. It should be a fertile spring of new ideas, fresh ideas, of people who are going to take more important positions in the economy in future. Why is it necessary then that we have had to help them so? Of course, what we are looking at is a radical change of policy. We must not forget that it was only ten years ago that the Black man, for example, could not sell fruit in the streets and in many areas he still can not today. He cannot be a vendor. Outside the homelands he was only allowed 140 square feet for his shop. He was not allowed to sell anything in that shop other than the most essential day-to-day commodities. He could not operate a factory, he could not operate an industry, he could not organize himself into a company or trade as a partnership, he was not able to go into the wholesale business, he could not form himself into a financial institution or operate in the White areas. It was almost impossible for him to become part and parcel of the free enterprise system. One cannot wonder at the fact that so many of them rejected the free enterprise system, because they could not enter it and turned to socialism and frequently the most radical forms of socialism. Many of these obstacles still exist today. However, the report we have had is a courageous report. It analyses them objectively and it discusses how these obstacles can be removed.

I believe we are changing and that is the important thing, but there is a problem. One has to convince the civil service also that things are changing. After all, they have become used to administering one policy and then that policy changes. It is easier for the leader to change than for all the people below him in the various structures, many of them quite humble people, to make this change. And so it becomes necessary to appoint commissions and committees to make studies of the problem. This particular study, I think, is an excellent one. It is an extremely valuable survey and it can play a most valuable role in the convincing of the structures down below this House of the importance of making this change. It is an urgent change that has to be made. That urgency stems, obviously, from an increase in our population and the net that our economic growth has been quite inadequate recently. We must not ignore the fact that over the last five years we have averaged barely 1% growth in GDP per annum. That is insufficient to create anywhere near the number of jobs that are necessary. We have 300 000 new people coming onto the market every year.

We also have the problem of a highly inequitable wealth distribution and all the instability and dangers that such a situation creates. Of course, there is something paradoxical in the fact that the informal sector and the formal small business sector have to be examined by sociologists and economists in this objective way, because, really, by their very nature they should be an unstructured thing. They are a natural phenomenon. The way you should get them to grow is like mushrooms. You create the correct environment and then they will grow of their own accord without too much measurement and without too much careful watching. You cannot pick them up, examine their roots, put them in again and expect them to grow.

The problems in the Black areas are problems of infrastructure like premises, services and transport. The extent and nature of the market also constitute a problem because their own markets tend to be very much directed towards essentials of life where mark-ups are at a minimum. There are also the difficulties that stem from lack of education and commercial experience. Unfortunately that lack of knowledge is abysmal. There is also inadequate technical training and I have a conviction that the person who starts the best business is a well-qualified technical person who leaves a job and goes and establishes a small business where he can exercise his skill. Unfortunately, in the Black community, there are very few people with technical training. Then, of course, there is the problem of getting them capital. You have to have a track record before you can borrow money and that is where the Small Business Development Corporation and other Government structures are playing a most useful role. All these difficulties are, however, not nearly as deterring from the point of view of an emergent businessman as the problems which are put in his way by the Government and its executive. The report brings this out very clearly that it is a problem which must be addressed. I think nothing illustrates it more clearly than the Black taxi issue. There you have a very informal sector. The informal sector will frequently operate illegally. All the elements in that situation are the elements we will find as the informal sector develops. Black taxis come up against the executive, the civil service, who would like them to have licences and conform to proper regulations. They come up against the private sector which has an established interest—the main bus companies. They come up against the big parastatal organizations like the South African Transport Service and they also deal with a highly sensitive Black area. Nobody is belittling the problem of making decisions in that situation, but that is the kind of situation we are going to find ourselves in all the time as the informal sector, which we are trying to encourage, works cheek by jowl, with the formal sector. The formal sector will be saying: Why do we have to obey these regulations when they do not; they can undercut us for this reason. Some very courageous decisions will have to be made. To realize how forbidding to the uninitiated the type of legislative problems and administrative problems are, one has just got to run through them. Consider somebody who has just come to the market for the first time and who wants to become an entrepreneur. There is his problem of getting a licence, as well as the provisions of the Factories, Machinery and Building Works Act. These things scare him stiff. There are also the requirements of the Workmen’s Compensation Commissioner, the Unemployment Commissioner and the wage determinations. All these things can frighten somebody who wants to become an entrepreneur away from doing so and turn him back to becoming an employee. In this way we lose another recruit to the free enterprise system. It must be accepted that the informal business is informal. It is quite impossible for the step to be taken from no business experience to successful business on the terms that I have just described. The maze of Acts, regulations, ordinances and by-laws have influenced many a small man to turn away at the last moment.

There is a quotation in this document which is quite interesting. It says: “If the illegal and non-institutionalized nature of the informal small sector business is removed the economically active parties in this sector could be expected to be more profitable and therefore to create more employment opportunities.” [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Walmer will not take it amiss of me if I do not follow him, since what I want to say is completely different from what he has just been arguing about.

Since I myself was a member of a trade union for many years, and since I represent a constituency most inhabitants of which belong to trade unions, I thought that it would perhaps be advisable for me to confine myself to trade unions, to the registration of trade unions in particular.

If we look back in history we find that in the year 1924, just after the mine-workers’ strike, a law was passed by Parliament which compelled trade unions to register three months after their inception. We found this same trend in the years 1950-60 when Coloureds established trade unions. We have now reached the stage when Black trade unions are being established. They still have a great deal to learn in this regard, and it must be conceded that one will have to exercise patience in this regard.

I just want to look at what the Government’s share in regard to trade unions is as well. The Government has to ensure the optimum exploitation of the country’s economic potential and the provision of sufficient employment opportunities. The Government also has to have workers trained, which is going to promote increased productivity. The State also has to maintain and promote labour peace. The Government also wants to give trade unions maximum autonomy with the minimum interference. Various speakers referred to the industrial set-up in our country. We find that there are small, medium and large industries in our country. With the decentralization policy we are pursuing we find that many of these industries move to the border areas. We find development in the national states and even in the independent states. We also find that the agreements entered into possibly differ from those we find in the larger metropolitan areas. Due to this composition of our labour market we therefore find various forms of trade unions. For example, we find workers’ councils, smaller trade unions, larger unregistered trade unions, as well as the older, established registered trade unions. A question which now comes to mind is whether all trade unions should register before one can negotiate with employers for higher wages, better working conditions, better pensions, etc. I do not think this need necessarily be the case, and I am thinking of the smaller industries in particular in which a small group of workers find themselves. We also find that in the case of people working on a contract basis and where the work is of a temporary nature, it is not necessary that there specifically has to be registered trade unions. Where a large number of workers work on a more permanent basis, however, I think that these trade unions should in fact register. They acquire certain benefits by doing so. They have access to the Conciliation Board, Industrial Councils and even to the Industrial Court. We find that the older, established trade unions are of the opinion that all trade unions should register. It is true that most of the larger trade unions are registered, but we find that there is a trend amongst the newly established trade unions in particular not to register. Although the State does not wish to interfere in agreements entered into between employers and employees, it is necessary, for control purposes, to establish minimum requirements with which employers and employees have to comply. It is necessary for the State to know what the nature of an agreement is and how many workers are involved. For example, a simple form can be completed by the employer and returned to the department. If this is not done, it is impossible for the State to determine, in the first instance, whether there are errors in such an agreement, and how many workers are involved in such an agreement. If there appear to be errors in such an agreement, the State will also not be able to point this out to the parties. Therefore, in my humble opinion, it is essential that minimum requirements be set with which the parties concerned must comply. For example, if a dispute should arise, it would be extremely difficult to determine who breached the agreement. This could cause illegal strikes and other malpractices. We also find that in certain cases workers are compelled to strike and that they forego their wages by doing so, although they did not want to participate in such a strike. This causes frustration and could even end in damage to property, violence and loss of life. The registered trade unions that are compelled to comply with the minimum requirements are of the opinion that they need no longer register either. This also causes a degree of unrest and frustration amongst these trade unions. I should like to ask the hon the Minister not to close his eyes to illegal actions by both employers and employees. Perhaps one should also look at whether the registration of trade unions could not be facilitated. Personally, I think that when 25% or more of a group of workers in the same industry join one trade union, such a trade union should register. Until such time as the trade unions have registered they must at least comply with the minimum requirements laid down. There should also be a penalty clause, otherwise these requirements cannot be enforced in any case. One of the biggest problems appears to be the delays in hearing cases concerning unfair labour practices. Another problem being experienced is the high costs of these cases. An attempt must be made to settle labour disputes quickly and efficiently. In the work set-up there must always be stability, responsibility, discipline and reasonable behaviour towards one another by employers and employees. It should be made possible for the Industrial Court to enforce these codes quickly and cheaply. A question that arises is whether the Industrial Court should not be given the same status as the Supreme Court.

To summarize, I think that there should be provision for workers’ councils that can negotiate with employers. They, too, must comply with the minimum requirements. As far as the larger trade unions are concerned, I am of the opinion that they should register. At present there are more than half a million Blacks who belong to registered trade unions.

There are two problems which I have identified in my constituency, and which I should like to bring to the attention of the hon the Minister. Firstly, I have found that men who go to be trained as mine-workers are not given a second chance if they have to abandon their training for some reason or another. It often happens that they are quite justified in abandoning their training. For example, this happens due to illness or other problems in the family. Secondly, I have found that particularly as regards the aptitude tests of certain young men, there appears to be a difference between the aptitude tests written at the mines and the aptitude tests of other institutions. I do not know why this should be so, but young men go and write aptitude tests and are found suitable for a certain occupation which they would like to practise. When they get to a mine and write an aptitude test it is found that they are not suitable for that work. One is a little concerned about this, and I must say that many people in the constituency in which I live are concerned about it, too. Then there is the further problem that many people who resign from posts are replaced by people who receive a lower wage. In such cases only the name of the post is altered. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, naturally I cannot disagree with my colleague, the hon member for Carltonville. I think we have one thing in common, namely that he received his training in mining and I received mine in industries.

In order to overcome the shortage of trained labour in particular, we shall have to make use of all our population groups so that we can make good the deficiencies. In spite of the fact that the Republic of South Africa has most of the world’s most sought-after minerals at its disposal, the time has come when we cannot rely solely on the exploitation of certain minerals to ensure economic prosperity. Consequently it is in the national interests that industrial and labour development be considered to be absolutely essential.

During the past few years the Government has made intensive efforts to group occupational descriptions according to separate occupations in the various industrial sectors and in this way to make guides available to prospective apprentices to enable them to decide in which trade they want to qualify. As far as the prospective apprentice is concerned, the following attributes are required for admission as an apprentice: Interest in a specific trade, practical aptitude for the trade concerned, skill coupled with the necessary knowledge. To be an artisan satisfies the need to be creative and affords opportunities for advancement. The status of craftsmanship is in direct proportion to the quality of the work done. Various school subject qualifications are set as a prerequisite in various industries. English, Afrikaans and mathematics are required for most of the more advanced trades, particularly in the case of apprentices who want to continue with their theoretical studies. In such cases it is of course essential for the candidate to obtain the highest possible school qualification in order to be able to continue with possible future academic studies at university. The ideal is for a prospective apprentice to undergo aptitude tests before a final decision is taken as to which trade that person wishes to follow.

It is hardly possible to overemphasize the important role the artisan has played in the field of technology over the years. His handiwork is to be seen in every sphere of our society. Rapid progress in the field of technology during the past few decades has made ever greater demands on the work force of the Republic of South Africa. Consequently it is no wonder that there has been a shortage of qualified artisans for quite a number of years now. This shortage could have an inhibitory effect on the country’s economic prosperity and should therefore be counteracted at all costs. By means of various attractive incentive measures, to which the hon the Minister also referred this afternoon, the Government has endeavoured to encourage technical training. For example there are tax concessions for training costs and loans. The training facilities for full-time adult apprentices have been enlarged considerably and offer training opportunities to returning national servicemen, and to those persons who are older than the normal apprentice, and therefore cannot become artisans in the usual way.

In January 1983 the Department of Manpower decentralized its function in the field of training by appointing training advisers in each divisional inspectorate of the department and by establishing regional training committees to advise the department and the training advisers. Without the support of the private sector, and specifically the employer, apprentices cannot make any progress at all. It is, in fact, the employer who ensures that the practical training of apprentices meets the required standards. Apprentices are encouraged to give of their best and voluntarily take trade tests to qualify as artisans at an earlier stage than usual. There are even floating trophies and prizes that are awarded annually. These awards serve to promote technical training and also to emphasize high standards of craftmanship and to enhance the status of the artisan’s profession.

It must be remembered that manpower surveys were undertaken over a long period, which in some instances indicated negative and in other instances positive growth in certain trades. It must be borne in mind that a manpower survey is a career-orientated document classifying individuals according to the work they are doing at present and not always according to their qualifications. Frequently artisans fill managerial or executive posts. There is always the possibility that a fairly high percentage of salesmen, training officers, teachers, instructors, technicians and supervisors began their careers as artisans. Some have even entered politics.

As was said on a previous occasion, if South Africa wants to justify its rightful place among the leading industrial countries it will have to concentrate intensively on the training of its work force, particularly in the technical field. I want to repeat that we cannot rely solely on our mineral resources for economic stability and prosperity.

Before I conclude I should like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to Mr Fame Botha the predecessor of the present Minister. It was really inspiring to be able to serve on the study group with Mr Fanie Botha for five years and to be able to experience the Manpower 2000 project with him. But it is also true that the present hon Minister will leave his own mark on this portfolio. We who have travelled the same road as the present hon Minister for the past five years, know with what success he has managed his various portfolios. I want to tell him that he can rely on our wholehearted support. He said earlier that we would have to take a look at productivity. Perhaps it would be a good idea if in future, in addition to the Manpower 2000 project we are still continuing with, we launched another project which we could perhaps refer to as Productivity 2000.

Mr Chairman, by emphasizing the importance of the training of apprentices the hon member for Germiston has shown that he is aware of the importance of this work of the department. I should like to support him in this regard.

†I would like to say a few more words about the report. I believe it is an honest and courageous report and for that reason I want to pay my respects to the people who prepared it. They are not afraid to tackle any aspect of the problems concerning the development of small business which they believe to be germane to the situation. They discuss, for example, the attitude of officials and the importance of this attitude to emergent business being correct, co-operative and helpful. I am sure that the document which they prepared, will make a most significant contribution to getting that attitude right. They also refer to legislation and the necessity of reviewing all legislation as it affects emergent business. That is obviously a sensitive area, but they have tackled it in a fearless, unemotional and straightforward fashion. I believe great benefit can be derived from studying their recommendations.

There are certain issues which I would like to address and which I believe we can consider. The first is the removal of ideological impediments in the way of new arrivals in the free enterprise system. One of them which obviously stands out, is the question of central business districts and the ability of Blacks to trade in those areas. Of course, we believe that people should be allowed to trade anywhere, but at least let us make a start there. A start has been made as far as Coloureds and Indians are concerned and I believe that the same conditions that apply to them, must also apply to Black businessmen. The Government has already gone quite far with the structures that it has created for the assistance of small business and the emergent businessman. We visited the Industrial Development Corporation in the recent recess and the Director of the small Business Corporation gave us a short résumé of the things that that organization was doing. I believe that they are realistic and have tackled the problem in a business-like way. They are getting their own organization streamlined. They realize where the shortages are, for instance the shortage of physical space in which to manufacture. This is something which they have addressed. I think that they have made considerable progress in the provision of finance and the problem of security for borrowed money. These are things which they have tackled and have tackled realistically. However, one must accept that the emergence of business is, traditionally all over the world, an area where the law of the jungle rules. One wants lots of people to enter the field and one must be prepared to accept appalling casualties. Lots of businesses which are started will not survive. That is the essence of the free enterprise system. There are others which will be astonishing successes. However, the main thing is to create the environment when people of enterprise say: Let us have a go. But we cannot expect that a high percentage of those who involve themselves in the perils of free enterprise will, in fact, survive because they simply will not.

One cannot leave this subject without mentioning the close corporation. I believe no more imaginative piece of legislation has ever been introduced by this Government in the field of corporate legislation and probably in the field of most other types of legislation. Before long we will look back at this Bill as a milestone in the corporate legislation of South Africa. I believe it is going to have benefits that have not even been considered. One of the benefits that will flow from it is that it will enable companies to continue indefinitely as close corporations without having the pressures put upon them to sell out to major organizations. That is a built-in problem that a limited liability company has because people end up with a large proportion of their estates wrapped up in their companies and they have no way of releasing themselves except to some third party. A closed corporation makes it possible for a person to get out as a member by using the assets of that close corporation itself.

There is a further aspect of this question of small businesses that is interesting. Overseas they are finding that the ownership of the means of production in big organizations no longer is the strategic power it used to be. Why? The answer is that they cannot control labour. Owning huge plants can be an embarrassment because one has to operate the labour as well that is involved in that plant. They are increasingly putting out work on subcontract to such a degree that subcontracting is taking on a completely new dimension. This ties in with small business. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I take pleasure in speaking after the hon member for Walmer. I listened to the various topics he touched on and because he spoke with authority I cannot cross swords with him. Consequently he must pardon me if I go on to another aspect.

At present South Africa is experiencing a period of unprecedented technological change in virtually every sphere. There is a dire shortage of trained people. It is the policy of the Government that every South African must have the opportunity to develop and utilize his potential to the full. Every skilled worker entering the labour market creates job opportunities for innumerable less skilled persons and on account of its declared policy the Government is also under an obligation to ensure that handicapped persons are afforded an opportunity to develop into useful and happy citizens who are able to make their contribution to the welfare of the country. The handicapped worker in this country can play a positive role in solving this country’s manpower problems. Employers will have to re-evaluate many of the existing prejudices which are usually due to ignorance. An employer is inclined to assume that a handicapped person’s productivity must be lower than that of another worker. To many employers employing a handicapped person is a charitable gesture. The fact that a person, for whatever reason, is handicapped, does not mean that that person is not able to compete on an equal footing with others for a suitable post. There are many employers who have learnt from experience that a handicapped person develops into a well-adjusted and productive worker when an atmosphere of goodwill, acceptance and co-operation prevails. Handicapped persons are not asking for charity but merely for an opportunity to prove themselves. It has been proved repeatedly that in a post in which he is accepted as a member of the team, a handicapped person does so well that he outshines the other workers. Nowadays an increasing number of employers are overlooking the person’s obvious handicap and are ascertaining scientifically what the capabilities of such employees are. A handicapped person wants to earn living just like everyone else, and it is the promise of the Department of Manpower that a handicapped employee who is employed selectively should not be prevented by his handicap from competing on an equal footing in the post. The handicapped person is a valuable source of manpower and must be used as such, to the benefit of the community and the country as a whole.

Handicapped persons can be divided into three main groups, namely the sensorily handicapped, the mentally handicapped and the physically handicapped. Included in the latter group one finds, inter alia, epileptics and sufferers of chronic diseases such as heart, lung, kidney, hormonal and blood disorders. People who were wounded in the war or who are injured in terrorist attacks frequently suffer injuries which result in their also having to enter the labour market as handicapped persons. Usually there is no problem finding suitable employment for a handicapped person of normal intelligence whose handicap is of such a nature that he is able to obtain a school-leaving certificate. For handicapped persons who have difficulty finding work on the open labour market the Department of Manpower has set up sheltered employment factories throughout the country.

At present there are 13 such factories that can provide employment for approximately 2 000 handicapped persons. Inter alia, the factories undertake leatherwork, the repair of books, canvas work, textile work, the manufacture of clothing and furniture, sheet metal work. The annual turnovers of these factories total approximately R9 million. A handicapped work-seeker who cannot compete in the open labour market from the outset can be placed in the service of an approved employer. The Department of Manpower subsidizes that worker’s salary by 80% during the first year, by 60% during the second year and by 40% during the third year. At present there are 314 handicapped persons receiving this wage subsidy. Handicapped persons who are unable to work can of course apply to the Department of Health and Welfare for a disability allowance. The Department of Manpower is extending job opportunities at the sheltered employment factories. This step has been generally welcomed and one hopes that even more will be done in future. I should like to ask that renewed attention be given to pupils with learning disabilities and the placing of those pupils who attended special schools. Many pupils with learning disabilities are in good health and their marks in certain fields of study are average or even above average. They are quite capable of progressing as far as level five in these schools. These pupils have the potential to become good apprentices in the motor and engineering industries but because they do not have the minimum academic qualification required for admission as an apprentice in these professions, they are lost to the country as skilled workers. I want to emphasize that in general these pupils can have the minimum qualifications in certain subjects and in the workshop, but because they do not meet all the academic requirements, their talents are going to waste. Here is a potential labour force which ought to be developed at the present juncture and I would be glad if the hon the Minister, who has sympathy for handicapped persons, will develop them to their maximum potential and give attention to this aspect. The Department of Manpower is constantly trying to counteract the prejudice against handicapped persons as workers. The quarterly publication, Rehabilitasie in Suid-Afrika, which may be obtained from the Department of Manpower free of charge, plays a major role in the campaign against prejudice. This magazine is distributed to all employers, social workers and allied institutions and I want to suggest that consideration also be given to advertising vacancies for handicapped workers in this magazine. The vocational guidance officers of the department could play a significant role in this connection. I want to appeal to employers to consider which posts in their organizations could be filled by handicapped persons and not to be prejudiced against handicapped persons. Perhaps every employer should ascertain what handicapped persons he already has in his employ. Because the handicapped person usually does his or her job without giving the employer much trouble it is very easy to forget about them. More attention could be given to the handicapped person who is just waiting for an opportunity to prove his loyalty and productivity. To the various schools and institutions that are helping to train handicapped persons and place them in employment, I should like to say thank you, on behalf of the many handicapped persons who through the assistance of these persons and institutions lead self-sufficient and independent lives, for their unselfish contribution to the community as a whole. Every person is born with certain talents, but not everyone is born with the same number of talents. There are those persons who are only born with a few talents, but who develop them and eventually lead a decent, productive, life. Others lose many of the talents they were born with as a result of ill-health or an accident and it is not necessary for their remaining talents to be lost to the country. For the sake of the prosperity of this country and its people the talents of the handicapped cannot be allowed to remain hidden under a bushel.

Mr Chairman, I want to congratulate the hon member for Maraisburg on his speech. I think the matters to which he referred deserve the support of all the parties so that attention can be given to the problems with regard to the handicapped, in whatever way they may be handicapped. The department also deserves the fullest praise for the fact that they are doing so much to train these people—amongst others, the blind as well—and that they take as many of these unfortunate members of society up in the labour field. I agree with the hon member that they do not want charity, but that they want to earn their daily bread in the labour market.

As regards the misapprehension the hon member Mr Van Staden apparently has about our policy, I should like to put it to him very clearly once again that we are in complete agreement with steps for the training and retraining of workers, the improvement of their working conditions and that they should also be appointed in higher posts, but always in accordance with the policy of separate development. Now I want to ask the hon member whether he agrees with that and I also want to ask the hon member for Springs whether he agrees?

What does that mean?

Very well, Mr Chairman, if they do not know what that means they must go and remove all those posters in Potgietersrus. They must go and remove all of them, since in Potgietersrus they are saying that their policy is still the policy of separate development, but is it also separate development in the labour field? Mr Chairman, I am just asking the hon member: Is it still separate development in the labour field? [Interjections.]

[Inaudible.]

The hon member for Stilfontein is a Prog in any case. He does not know what it means. However, we stand for separate development at all levels of Government and in every facet. [Interjections.]

I should like to continue with what I was dealing with in my introductory speech, viz the appreciation the CP has for the fact that the safety of the worker is being looked after and that it remains of cardinal importance. According to the report, it appears that only elementary precautions are needed in order to prevent many accidents. During this year 18 632 accidents were reported, and paragraph 6.44 on page 82 of the report points to certain causes of this. I quote:

It would appear that a large number of accidents could have been prevented by taking elimentary precautions. The fact that the department and the people who work with this are mindful of these matters deserves praise.

[Inaudible.]

If the hon member is referring to Pienaars River, I do not know whether he means Mr Phatudi, since I know that he proposed a motion of no confidence in the CP. In terms of that kind of argument, such as that we are the so-called allies of the ANC, the National Party is most probably the ally of Phatudi. Phatudi is their election agent in Potgietersrus. [Interjections.] Go and find out the truth and then you can come back.

Order! Hon members are not discussing the by-election in Potgietersrus now.

On page 353 of the report of the National Manpower Commission it is stated that only approximately 25% of the labour force is organized.

That was the position at the end of 1982. The membership of organized trade unions is 1,23 million. The paid-up members of unregistered trade unions is estimated to be approximately 100 000. Whilst works committees looked after the interests of 80 000 Blacks alone at the end of 1981, it would appear that works committees must once again be given optimum encouragement and that this matter should continue to be given high priority.

On page 355 the Third Report of the National Manpower Commission refers to dualism. Paragraph 3.19 of the annual report of the department mentions that there is tension due to competition and that the new trade unions that are established do not necessarily recruit new members, but influence members of other trade unions to become members of the new trade unions. There is therefore dualism and tension in the new direction trade unionism is pursuing at this stage.

Paragraph 4.2.5.5 on page 361 of the Third Report of the National Manpower Commission therefore deserves special attention by the Government. I quote:

We fully associate ourselves with this recommendation.

I also want to refer to the Industrial Court. In the reports it is stated that the status of the Industrial Court should be given special attention. We agree that there should be greater emphasis on the status and benefits of this court. Its image as a whole should be improved. The NMC makes certain recommendations regarding the Industrial Court. This appears on pages 374 and 375 of the Third Report of the National Manpower Commission. I do not want to go into that in detail now, but I want...

Hear, hear!

The hon member is just being a clown now. He must keep quiet, since I am discussing a serious matter now. If he cannot be serious he should rather leave.

On page 374 there are very important recommendations with regard to the status and image of the Industrial Court. We do not agree that the name of this court should be altered. It has been known as the Industrial Court over the years and it has been known as such in the language of the people. This continual change in designation serves no purpose and I would suggest that we stick to well-known names known to the people and to which people are accustomed. I quote paragraph (d) on page 374:

I have already stated our standpoint in that regard. The Supreme Court of South Africa is divided up into the different divisions of the different provinces, as well as different local divisions, and since there is an increase in the work load of the Industrial Court at present, I want the hon the Minister to consider that the Industrial Court, like the Supreme Court of South Africa, should be divided up into divisions and local divisions. The work load of this court is too heavy. Despite advertisements and invitations... [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Brakpan made an interesting contribution in connection with manpower. It was his second speech directed at the activities of the department. With the exception of the political parts, his second speech was excellent. Why did the hon member not also use his first 10 minutes to talk about manpower? In his first speech he referred to a speech made in America by Prof John Coetzee. The hon member than tried to suggest here that what Prof Coetzee had said there was the policy of the National Party.

I said that that was what was in store for us. Did you not listen?

The hon member opposed it vehemently. It is not what is in store for us, because what Prof Coetzee had to say about mixed schools is not the policy of the National Party. He can still be excused because he is not a member of Parliament, but it is inexcusable that the hon member for Germiston District told the people in Potgietersrus that that was what was in store for us within five years. [Interjections.] I do not know why the hon member said that, because she knows that it is not National Party policy. The hon member for Brakpan also knows it. In spite of the new educational dispensation it has been spelt out repeatedly and ad nauseum that separate schools are the policy of the National Party. As early as 1949 an ordinance was introduced that caused Afrikaans- and English-speaking children to attend separate schools. Why would the National Party, that placed such legislation on the Statute Book, now, allow people of colour to attend White schools? I simply cannot follow this kind of logic.

Order! Which Vote is the hon member for Hercules discussing now? [Interjections.]

Mr Chairman: I merely want to deal with the matter of Prof John Coetzee’s speech, to which the hon member for Brakpan referred.

The hon member for Springs made a very interesting statement which landed him in political hot water with the Conservative Party. He suggested that merit should apply in the labour market and not colour. If the hon members suppress efficiency in favour of colour, in what hot water will they not find themselves? According to the policy of the CP, managerial posts must be channeled in such a way that friction is eliminated. But promotion must not be withheld from a person because he is of a different colour. In this country we cannot afford to allow merit to play second fiddle to colour.

The hon member for Maraisburg made an interesting speech about handicapped people in the labour field. I should like to put in a good word for mentally handicapped persons, namely the children in special schools to whom the hon member also referred in passing. Those pupils do not study syllabuses that are on a par with those of provincial schools. They do not have standards for example but year levels. The requirement for admission to most apprenticeships is standard 7. Because these children cannot obtain a Std 7 certificate they are totally debarred from apprenticeship. There are many girls attending those schools who study to be hairdressers and they do excellent work. Many of them reach year level 5, but when they have completed it, they cannot find work, because they are debarred from apprenticeships owing to the fact that they do not have a Std 7 certificate.

But this is not all. Thousands of these pupils have only minimal brain dysfunction so that they are just not able to compete with normal pupils at a normal scholastic level. These are not abnormal or subnormal pupils, but merely pupils who are mentally retarded to a greater or lesser extent. Today I want to appeal to the hon the Minister, the department and the education departments of the Provincial Administrations to get together to see whether they cannot reach a compromise between the year level system and the standard system so that children in special schools who can fare as well as an ordinary Std 7 pupil, can be admitted to apprenticeships. If we can do this we shall achieve two things: In the first place we shall help to alleviate the tremendous shortage of skilled manpower and in the second place we shall be able to open the door to literally thousands of children in this country who are still being denied apprenticeships.

Mr Chairman, I want to come back to the hon member for Hercules and the hon member for Brakpan in a moment, but before doing so, I want to refer briefly to the speech made by the hon member for Durban North. We would support very strongly his appeal for a conference on unemployment, particularly so as every party represented in this Committee has focused on the very real problems that South Africa is experiencing in unemployment right now. Just to stress very strongly, as that hon member himself did, that we do not need further diagnosis, I want to say that we really do know what these problems are. What we are struggling for, is to find solutions. I would think that if such a conference were to be held under the auspices of the hon the Minister and his department, the emphasis should be placed right there, rather than just once again going over all the many problems about unemployment. We should rather have a plan of action so that we can deal with this vexed problem.

Mr Chairman, the hon the Minister must have realized by now, as he has listened to the hon members in this debate, that whatever any of his predecessors has done in the past, he has an enormous job in front of him, because there does seem to be a great deal of lack of clarity, to put it kindly, in terms of an understandable labour policy. Nothing demonstrates this better than the speech made by the hon member for Brakpan. It is quite clear to me that the CP has not yet come to terms with one central fact in South Africa, namely that economic integration is part and parcel of our life. It is not something that one can wish away; there is no way you can turn the clock back. It is an absolute fact of reality and either we come to terms with that or we fly in the face of reality.

I tried to make the point earlier, when that hon member could unfortunately not be present, that White and Black workers are so important to one another, without any discrimination whatsoever, that they are essentially interdependent. The White worker cannot say to his Black colleague: “We do not need you”. Neither can the Black colleague say to the White worker: “We do not need you”. If you take the one away from the other, you are going to be in very desperate trouble in South Africa. What does this mean? I think the hon member agrees with me that it is a fact of life. If one considers the fact that there are nearly 9 million economically active people in South Africa, of whom nearly 6 million happen to be Black, one can imagine what would happen to every area of our life if the one were suddenly to say to the other that he does not need him. If there is one thing we need to learn in South Africa, it is to say to one another frankly and fearlessly: “We need you”.

Take it further.

Yes, that is what I want to do.

Take it further politically.

Yes, I will. If we accept that, then of course I get very confused when the hon member asks the question whether we understand these realities in the context of separate development, because I honestly do not know what that means. He can excuse me, because I am not one who has followed that policy for many years. He now accuses the NP of having moved away. For the sake of clarity in this debate, let us really try and find one another as to what we mean by that. For example, do we mean that we can have Black and White workers, but that they must be absolutely separate at the work place? One cannot do that though. You cannot have machines running with screens around them; one cannot have separate development in economic terms. You can only have development in economic terms, otherwise you are playing with the future of the country.

Mr Chairman, where we of course have another point of difference, is where the NP wants to suggest that, once five o’clock comes and once people have left the work place, separate development must once again be reintroduced and smuggled in. The hon member for Hercules asked how on earth anyone can believe that the NP would allow children of different race groups to attend the same school—it is unheard of; how could they possibly do it? Mr Chairman, only a few years ago, when I sat in this House, I was told that it was unheard of to have trade union rights for all. Therefore, I think we should never say never. We should never say never, because I have too often seen the NP, having been persuaded by us on this side of the House, accepting the reality and saying that a worker is a worker and therefore we should have collective bargaining for all. To underline the point, I can say that the hon member for Hercules and in particular the hon member for Springs brought such joy to my heart today when they actually said that we should emphasize merit and that we cannot talk in terms of colour. I think that hon member will be honest enough to know that many times in many debates, when we argued that merit had to be the criterion, we were told that we were living in a fool’s paradise, that we thought we were living overseas and that it could not work in South Africa. One of the cardinal principles of the PFP policy has been merit at the work place. That was shouted down again and again. I do not want to go back into the past and claim any credit. All I am saying, is that if everyone of us honestly and fearlessly pursued the logical consequences of our argument, namely that you should have economic integration and economic development as first and foremost, we must follow the policy of merit. Then I agree with the hon members who have stated that so courageously today.

Mr Chairman, however, one then cannot stop there. One cannot then say that you divorce that and will stop it right there. One has to expect further implications to develop, and that is why the hon member for Brakpan is so scared and so nervous. And he does himself no credit. I have a lot of admiration for that hon member, not only for him personally, but also for his intellectual ability. I cannot believe that he really expects that one can take an economic situation and impose an ideology called separate development on it without doing great harm to the economic system itself. It seems to me that in his own argument there is a war going on between what his heart is saying on the one hand and what his head knows to be true on the other.

Mr Chairman, I do not want to impute motives to the hon member for Brakpan; all I am saying is that if we are going to have a labour policy and if the hon the Minister is going to give lead to this country, as he has to now in this field, we have to take certain criteria and follow them. And the criteria must be economic. It must not be based on fear, because no White person has to stand back and say that he cannot compete on equal terms with anybody else. We insult the White worker if we imagine that he must be surrounded by protective devices and protective statutes. That is why I argued earlier that what is true in the whole of industry, must also be true in the mining industry as well.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Pinelands initiated a very interesting discussion here. I want to say that I think he is quite correct: In economic terms, we in this country are tremendously dependent on each other. Those of us who do not want to concede this had better go off and create that homeland and see whether we will be less economically dependent on the rest of the world when we arrive there.

Mr Chairman, I found it very interesting that the hon member also referred to what was happening in education. He wanted the line extended all the way through. However, I want to get back to it by telling him that I do not believe we will be able to be as productive as we would like to be. For how many years now have we not found in this country that Afrikaans- and English-speaking pupils experience problems when placed in the same classroom? I want to ask the hon member if he has ever attended lessons in a class where a language other than Afrikaans or English was being used.

Yes.

Do you realize how difficult it is?

Yes, it is difficult.

That is right. At times it causes one to fall behind to such a degree that one cannot be productive at all; nor can the teacher or the lecturer be productive either. It is for this reason that we must take this aspect into account in this country.

Is that the only reason?

No, that is not the only reason. I am now dealing with the hon member for Pinelands. I shall come to the hon member for Langlaagte in a moment.

We shall have to train people if we want to get the productivity of this country into top gear. We must also make use of the best method. We can argue as much as we like, but one will only be able to train those individuals by making use of a teacher who shares their language and cultural background. This does not mean that one should not have contact with those individuals on any other level, because I do not think one can evade the fact that even our children, regardless of how young they are, come into contact with people of colour, as many CP supporters have testified. Mr Chairman, they will tell you that their children may not attend school with the others but you will find that they leave their children in the care of Black servants for the entire day. And so it goes on. These are the issues we have to contend with in this country.

Do you want them to attend school with your child?

I shall get round to the hon member for Langlaagte in a moment and then he and I are going to have a long conversation. But first I want to ask him to show me some decency and civility; I am still dealing with the hon member for Pinelands. His turn will come.

It is for this reason that I think we must recognize the realities in respect of the productivity we have to strive for in this country.

Mr Chairman, I now want to deal with the hon member for Brakpan. I made a few notes on what he had to say. Before I begin, however, I just want to ask the hon member: Has it not been proved in other countries such as the United States of America and the United Kingdom that even in a community such as Miami, racially mixed classes sparked off open conflict? This is a conflict which even led to race riots. Surely this has occurred throughout the world during the past few decades and we must take note of it.

And in trade unions.

Yes, and I suppose in trade unions as well. Mr Chairman, I now want to deal with the hon member for Brakpan. I am sorry that he has left the Chamber. I think the hon members of his party who remained behind might as well speak on his behalf. The hon member for Germiston District will know what I am talking about. Mr Chairman, they maintain that there should be totally separate development. Now I want to ask the hon member for Germiston District, the MP for a huge industrial area which I would say is almost the heart of industrial development in South Africa: If this homeland of the CP were to be created now and we had to tell those Coloureds in the Germiston/Boksburg area that they must leave those factories and move to the homelands, my contention is that it would create the totally separate economic situation that the hon member for Brakpan advocated.

You are just as ridiculous as your speech.

Mr Chairman, this is the totally separate economic situation that the hon member for Brakpan advocated. Now I want to tell that hon member that if such a situation were to arise we would have to find other people to replace them. Now I want to ask the hon member for Germiston District: “Should we find immigrants to replace them?”

Never mind, the Coloureds are with you, not with me.

In other words, Mr Chairman, that hon member says they are with me. Because they are with me, I want to remind that hon member that they are working in a telecommunications factory there. South Africa will soon be so advanced in the area of telecommunications that we shall be able to sell our telephone exchanges overseas. We shall enter the multinational market. If we reach that stage we can only compete with regard to price and quality. We can manufacture this equipment in our district at R1 million per day. That hon member says we must separate from one another in the economic field. That means I shall have to send the Coloureds in my area to some homeland or another, but with whom shall I replace them?

The hon member does not really understand what it is all about. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Germiston District says it is my problem. That is all she can say to me—it is my problem.

Mr Chairman, may I please ask a question?

Mr Chairman, I shall get round to that hon member. As the hon member for Pinelands has said, we in South Africa cannot escape from the interdependence of the respective groups. The hon member will say in Potgietersrus that it is Boksburg’s problem; she will say this from every other platform in this country. In the area where I live, however, 30 000 people are employed. There is no shortage of labour, but if we followed the CP’s policy we would have a greater unemployment problem. We shall then be unable to sell this product on a multinational market and compete on the world markets.

The hon member for Greytown also expressed several opinions that I cannot agree with. He said we should spend more money on labour and less on machinery. To put it another way, he alleged that one should not create a situation where the producer spends more on machinery and consequently causes more people to become unemployed. In that regard I want to spend some time referring to the experience one acquires in the manufacturing industry. At one stage I worked in an East Rand factory district where consumer goods were produced. One afternoon the marketing manager arrived and said that the price of a particular electric kettle had to be reduced because it could no longer be sold. This also has bearing on what I have just said to the hon member for Germiston District, namely, if productivity does not increase we shall not be able to compete on the market and in the end all the factory workers concerned will be out of work. The marketing manager said that the price of the electric kettle had to be reduced by 30%. One can hardly imagine how the price of an electric kettle which one uses at home, can be reduced by 30% and I can assure hon members that it took that factory’s team of industrial designers days to come up with something. Eventually they eliminated 17 of the kettle’s parts and then the price was right. They found out, however, that the elimination of the parts would result in one of the sections involved on the manufacturing of the kettle becoming obsolete; employees would therefore have to be paid off. After much consideration, however, we came to the conclusion that we could manufacture so many more kettles that our productivity would be increased by 30%. But that would have entailed buying additional machinery. One cannot therefore, if one takes all these aspects into account, specify whether the producer should spend more on labour or more on machinery. I believe it would be erroneous to dictate to producers. We subscribe to a free enterprise system and in my opinion this system should also operate on that level. The free enterprise system must at all times enjoy full priority regardless of the terrain in which one is operating. In the final analysis one competes with regard to prices and the price will determine whether everyone involved in the production of the kettle will continue to have employment. That is why we must also consider that aspect of the matter.

[Inaudible.]

It seems to me the hon member for Langlaagte is worried that I am not going to reply to him. That hon member alleged that 16% of the Whites in South Africa are unemployed if 16% of South Africa’s entire work force is unemployed.

But you are ignorant, are you not? It is a known fact that 16,5% of any nation in the world requires assistance from the State.

I shall take cognizance of that remark. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I shall not reply in detail now, but while all of us are in such a good mood, I shall rather avail myself of this opportunity to make a few general remarks.

In the first place I should like to express my thanks and gratitude to all the hon members of the Opposition parties as well as hon members on my side for congratulating me on my appointment as Minister in this portfolio. I realize that Manpower is one of the more difficult and more delicate portfolios and in future I shall have to rely very heavily on the co-operation and the understanding of all hon members of the House, because the problem of labour relations affects not only the Government or the Opposition, but all the people in South Africa. As I said at the outset when I accepted this portfolio, I do not undertake this task on the strength of my own ability, but on my knees. With that earnest attitude I should like to do everything in my power to make a success of this task.

I should like to repeat that in dealing with labour, when we deal with people’s work, we are dealing with something that for every person and every hon member in this House is surely the most important aspect in his life because he spends at least five days per week on it. His work situation and the way his work affects him, affects his whole family. It affects his survival and his feeling of security. One of the hon members suggested today that we should strive to establish tranquillity among the workers. Today I want to give the assurance that if there is one important objective in this department for which I shall strive, it is that the White, Coloured, Asian, and Black worker will have tranquilslity, security and certainty in his work situation. [Interjections.] If someone were to ask me today whether I would leave any group of workers in the lurch while I was Minister of Manpower, I would say frankly today that I shall not let any group of workers down, not those in a minority group either. As soon as people begin to get the impression that they are being discriminated against or that their work is in danger because they belong to a specific racial group, we are playing with fire. I should like to say at once that I shall try my best not to retaliate on a political level in this debate.

In the few months I have been occupying this position I have seen how much patience it sometimes requires to maintain labour peace. It also requires patience and self-control on the part of all the people concerned with labour, the trade unions, the employers and my department. I reached the conclusion that one needs grace from Above in order to maintain labour peace in South Africa. However, I should add that to set the labour world in South Africa ablaze is something any fool can do, he need only be irresponsible enough. All he has to do is to play on the worker’s feeling of security, against the background of political uncertainty.

Several members said in the debate today that whatever happened in the political sphere would also of necessity happen in future on the labour sphere, and what happened in the labour sphere today had to happen in the political sphere tomorrow. In my opinion this is a completely erroneous premise for an argument. If it were true that what happens in the labour sphere today must of necessity apply in the political-constitutional sphere tomorrow, there would have been no dividing lines between the different peoples in South Africa, especially if one considers our history which spans more than 300 years, a history in which people of different languages, cultures and colours have co-operated for centuries. If one takes this into consideration South Africa should today have been a totally integrated state.

All the groups in South Africa are interdependent as far as the work situation is concerned, but if we recognize that interdependence and deal with it circumspectly, it still does not mean that the dividing lines between peoples and the differences between individual people should be erased. I want to state here today that anyone who governs, whether it is in the labour or the political sphere, and ignores the fact that there are different groups with different interests, with different social and national interests, does not know what he is talking about. The reality of South Africa is that we must admit that there are different groups of people with different interests, and the future of this country is going to be determined by the way in which we deal with those differences and how sensibly we do so.

On merit.

I say they must be dealt with in a sensible way. If we do not do so, we shall encounter great difficulties in South Africa. I therefore make an appeal to all hon members, when they venture into this sphere, to do so in such a way that we may be assured of happy minority groups in South Africa.

We must also take cognizance of the other realities in South Africa. The hon member for Springs made a valid point in this connection. I am in full agreement with Prof Boshoff about what he said in connection with the economic development of South Africa. The hon member for Newcastle quoted Prof Boshoff here.

Piet, you must not salute like that.

I agree with what Prof Boshoff said. The hon member for Kuruman must not be so worried about the saluting. I ask him to try, for once in his life, to keep a debate at a high level. I am making a courteous appeal to that hon member not to give in to the political temptation. He and I are old friends, after all. But if the hon member wants to drag in political issues here, I can also do so because I am an old hand at that game. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Pinelands spoke of changes. I agree with him. Sensible and wise change is indeed the key to survival. However, a person or people that are unable to adapt to changing circumstances, and are unable to assimilate the changes bearing down on them from elsewhere, do not have a future. For that reason the Government has always been making changes in the field of labour and awaiting circumstances that could change, and that is why we are still so well able to remedy the situation in South Africa today.

That is why things are going so well in this country. South Africa enjoys exceptional labour peace and has an exceptionally happy work force. We should all be very grateful for it.

The hon member for Pinelands referred to the staff situation in the department and wanted to know what we shall do to solve the staff problem. The activities of the department are constantly expanding. Occupational differentiation has already been applied to good effect in the department. Some people returned to the department and our recruitment efforts are making good progress.

People of colour have also been involved in the department to an increasing extent. This was done particularly in connection with vocational guidance and we follow the policy that people of colour are also involved and used where that is feasible.

As hon members know, the legislation administered by the department has been rationalized. We also introduced labour-saving techniques and methods in the department, and this is an ongoing process. Computers and word-processors were also put into service. Certain procedures in the department were also streamlined with view to economizing on staff.

Repeated references were made today to the name of the Department of Manpower. The hon member for Germiston District referred to the large percentage of women employed in the department.

†Other hon members also referred to this fact and some suggested a possible change of name. If the department were to be called the Department of Woman power, it might scare male staff away from this department.

It might attract them.

By calling it manpower, it appears to attract female staff. This might possibly indicate their preferences.

*It seems that the name Manpower has an effect on women. However, the hon member for the District of Germiston must not worry, I am also on the women’s side.

I should now like to refer to the matter of sheltered employment.

†The hon member for Pinelands referred to this matter and asked why so few jobs were available to these people and why the wages were so low. The department is investigating the sheltered employment scheme at the moment and a memorandum will be submitted to the Government in the very near future. As the hon member may be aware, the department also subsidizes the operating loss of factories which employ people in sheltered positions.

*Various facts in connection with sheltered employment are furnished in the annual report.

The hon member also wanted to know what happened to the investigation of the National Manpower Commission into farm workers and domestic servants. This investigation is still proceeding and has not yet been finalized and we should hear from the commission in this regard in due course.

The hon member also wanted to know why the report of the National Manpower Commission which was dated July 1983 was only recently made available to the hon members. After the report was received—as hon members noticed, it is a bulky report—it first had to be translated. The State Language Services was overloaded with, inter alia, various President’s Council reports that had to be translated. The report was tabled as soon as the translation and printing was completed. It was therefore tabled as soon as circumstances allowed.

The hon member also asked me to give attention to several points of criticism levelled at the National Manpower Commission. I am aware that there are various organizations that are levelling criticism at the National Manpower Commission. I have great appreciation for the work being done by the National Manpower Commission as well as for the people who serve on that commission, as well as the sacrifices that many of them make. This is a very useful forum where a cross-pollination of ideas takes place. Although completely contradictory standpoints are sometimes expressed, it is always worthwhile to discuss it in a peaceful atmosphere. I mentioned to the National Manpower Commission that certain criticism was being levelled at them and I asked them to attend to it themselves. They accepted it in a very good spirit. Today all of us are being subjected to criticism and no-one will ever be completely satisfied with any commission of committee or the work being done by it.

Much criticism has also been expressed about the size of the National Manpower Commission and it is being alleged that the body is too clumsy. I shall look at this matter in May next year when the commission has to be reconstituted and I shall then consider all these factors to which reference has been made.

The hon member for Pinelands also referred to the Mine-workers’ Union and the matter of blasting certificates, etc. Although the Wiehahn Commission instituted an investigation it does not mean that because it reported mainly to this department, this department should react to the report in its entirety. The part dealing with mine-workers and blasting certificates is concerned with the provisions of the Mines and Industries Act, which is the responsibility of the hon Minister of Mineral and Energy Affairs. It is therefore outside my area of jurisdiction and I would urge the hon member to raise this matter under the Mineral and Energy Affairs Vote.

I should also like to avail myself of the opportunity to congratulate the hon member for Roodepoort on his birthday. It seems that I am only one day older than him.

The hon member referred to a very important aspect of the population growth. Something that affects everyone in South Africa and something that everyone must realize is that at the current rate at which the total population of South Africa is growing, there is not an economy in the world that can satisfy the needs of such a population growth for the services they expect to be rendered. We cannot fight unemployment in this country; we cannot raise the level of prosperity of the population; we cannot provide sufficient hospitals, schools and residential areas because we shall simply not have the necessary means to do so if the population continues to grow at the current rate. Nobody can put the blame on the Government. It is a responsibility that every individual must take upon himself. As the legislature and the representatives of the people we have the task, wherever we go, of promoting this matter in the correct way. South Africa is impoverishing itself by growing at the present rate, and we cannot afford it. That one can say anywhere. It is one of the facts that we must take into consideration in this country in which we live.

I have already referred to the remarks made by the hon member for Germiston District on womanpower. The hon member also referred to the overconcentration of the population in the PWV area. She asked whether there would be enough water in this area in future and whether it was right to have that concentration there. It is the declared policy of the Government to pursue a policy of decentralization and to take the work to the workers in order to achieve a more proportionate distribution of economic activities throughout the country, precisely because this overconcentration also creates other problems and because it eventually becomes impossibly expensive. Another hon member maintained that there were certain advantages in centralization. It is valid, but there are certain parameters within which one must remain. When they are exceeded, centralization becomes terribly expensive. This is what is happening in our metropolitan areas, among other reasons as a result of a water shortage. However, as the hon member knows, it is the declared policy of the Government to decentralize and in the longterm it is one of the answers to many of our problems.

The hon member also referred to the position of women. This department—and I want to pay tribute to my predecessor and everyone who was concerned in it—removed all sexual differentiation in wage- and service agreements with that legislation of his. In this regard the department and the people who made a contribution to the policy of the department have a very good record. Everyone in the manpower sphere has a very good record as far as women are concerned.

Mr Chairman, in view of the late hour, I think I should move at this stage that the debate adjourn till tomorrow, when I shall continue my reply to the questions of the hon members.

I therefore move:

Agreed to.