announced that in terms of Standing Order No 17 he had appointed the following members to act as temporary Chairmen of Committees: Messrs G C du Plessis, A Geldenhuys, J J Lloyd, B W B Page, H H Schwarz, K D Swanepoel, RAF Swart, C Uys, Drs L van der Watt and H M J van Rensburg (Mossel Bay),

Mr Speaker, I move without notice:

Agreed to.

Mr Speaker, when I began replying to the debate yesterday, I had hoped to dispose of the political side of it so that today I would only have to confine myself to the financial aspects of the debate. However, there are one or two things I should still like to point out in order to round off those matters properly as well.

You will not be finished with them today.

Mr Speaker, the hon member for Rissik might as well sit down and be quiet. I am not very much attracted to former United Party supporters. [Interjections.]

On one occasion I mentioned here that the hon member for Pietersburg had written to me to bring to my attention a matter relating to crowding-out at the post office at Pietersburg. This is a matter that we investigated and that we have discussed in this House. At the time I contended that not one other hon member of the CP had written to me in this regard, upon which the hon member for Brakpan became terribly excited and vehemently contended that he had written to me about this before. I replied that if he had indeed written, I was sorry, and that I apologized because I had not been aware of it. This morning I had all the files of my office, of the office of the Postmaster-General and of the Deputy Postmaster-General searched. The hon member for Brakpan has never written any such letter. [Interjections.]

Mr Speaker, may I put a question to the hon the Minister? [Interjections.]

Towards the end of my speech the hon member can put his question to me or try to give an explanation. [Interjections.] I am just setting the matter straight. I am not trying to score points off the hon member. I just wish to state clearly that the hon member for Brakpan did not write to me. Nor did he write to one of my top officials about these matters. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Koedoespoort, too, contended that problems concerning crowding-out were being experienced at the post office at Waverley. I take it he was referring to the Totiusdal post office. There is no Waverley post office. [Interjections.] The hon member for Koedoespoort said that as a poor man, he banked his money at that post office, and that there was crowding-out at all the post offices that he knew about. This morning I gave instructions that the postmaster of Totiusdal be telephoned. She said that there was no crowding-out whatsoever at her post office. They virtually never see Black people there. [Interjections.]

This brings me to the hon member for Sunnyside, Mr Speaker. He, too, contended that crowding-out occurred at his post office. This morning I also arranged for a telephone call to be made to the postmaster of Sunny-side. He, too, said that there was no crowding-out whatsoever there. He did not know of any such thing. Moreover, up to then he had never received any complaints about crowding-out.

Please give all the facts.

I am giving this House only the facts, Mr Speaker, I am stating things just as they are. Hon members of the CP can interpret them as they wish. [Interjections.]

Surely you are not telling the truth now.

Mr Speaker, the hon member for Sunnyside says that I am not telling the truth now. Even if the hon member wants to dispute it, I can assure him that we telephoned the postmaster of Sunnyside this morning. He said that there was no crowding-out at that post office. [Interjections.] Just as little as the hon member complained in the NP caucus when racial separation was withdrawn in post offices … [Interjections.] The hon member for Sunnyside is merely trying to make a political football out of the abolition of separation and the so-called problem of crowding-out in post offices. I am just as concerned as he is that crowding-out should not take place at post offices. I do not allow myself to be prompted by him, Mr Speaker. [Interjections.] In the past the hon member for Sunnyside had his opportunity to say his say in this regard as chief NP spokesman on this Vote. Moreover, he availed himself of his opportunity to say his say yesterday, as chief CP spokesman. He might as well give me a chance to reply to the debate now. [Interjections.] It is things such as these, Mr Speaker, that we must avoid in debates on the Post Office. If the hon member for Koedoespoort has a problem, he can come and consult me in that regard. My top management and I will try to solve his problem to the best of our abilities, just as we solve people’s problems elsewhere as well. However, we do not have time for petty politics. [Interjections.]

†Mr Speaker, I would like to deal now with the speech delivered here by the hon member for Hillbrow, the chief spokesman of the official Opposition. One of the first things he said was that he was shocked and disappointed. I must say that he appears to be in the habit of suffering from delayed shock. I told him exactly a year ago that in this year’s Budget I would have to raise tariffs by approximately 10%. What I said then is recorded in Hansard; the hon member can go and read it if he likes. When I increase tariffs by 9% now he expresses his shock and dismay. [Interjections.]

It is more than 9%.

The hon member for Groote Schuur should mind his own business, Mr Speaker. He can mind the affairs of his little fellows at the university; I am not addressing him now. I am addressing the hon member for Hillbrow.

The hon member for Hillbrow said a number of quite rash things about this Budget. He accused this department of being rampant with bureaucracy. He also said that the 1983-84 Budget was disastrous. What he does is that he makes the wrong submissions. He comes to this House and tells hon members that we only spent R20 million on salaries last year in the Additional Appropriation. Of course, that is completely wrong. If the hon member doubts that he said that, let me put him right. When the hon member for Umlazi was speaking he said that there was an amount of R175 million on the Additional Estimates which was passed by the House without any opposition and that the hon member for Hillbrow had said that he thought that it was an excellent Additional Appropriation. The hon member for Hillbrow says “that only 20 million of it was for salaries.” That is not correct.

From 1 January to 30 April.

No, I have the hon member on record in this regard. The hon member for Umlazi said (14 March 1984):

No. An amount of only R20 million was in respect of salary increases.

It only went up on 1 January.

Let us have a look at this amount.

When were the salaries increased?

Mr Speaker, I did not interrupt the hon member. He must not speak after he has stopped speaking. He should have spoken more sensibly before he stopped, and then I could have dealt with his arguments. Let us just take a look at the amounts that are being referred to here. [Interjections.] No, Sir, the hon member for Parktown must let me alone now. He and I have had many discussions in regard to health, but the hon the Minister of Health and Welfare will settle his hash again shortly. [Interjections.] I should like to point out one thing to the hon member for Hillbrow.

†The hon member for Hillbrow must not twist facts in this House in regard to the Additional Estimates and the amount of R175 million. Of that amount we spent R133 million on the staff. This was in respect of salary advances, the 12% additional salary increase, transfers to the pension fund, transfers to the housing fund and so forth. These were all amounts included in that one particular amount. The hon member now tells us that we are guilty of overspending. I want to put one question to hon members on that side of the House and perhaps the hon member’s leader will tell me if the hon member himself cannot answer. Does the hon member for Hillbrow not want me to increase salaries in the Post Office even if we find ourselves in a difficult situation financially? Now he has nothing to say.

Provided you adjust your Budget.

Now the hon member has nothing to say.

I say of course you can provided you adjust your Budget.

The hon member for Hillbrow did not understand the Budget at all so why does he have so much to say now? There was an amount of R175 million on the Additional Estimates of which R133 million was for staff. There were increases in respect of staff that we could not have envisaged when the estimates were drawn up last year. If we take that amount together with an amount that was just a book entry, there was an additional amount spent that was unforeseen, all on the staff, except for about R4 million which was an incorrect estimate in regard to Sames—R4 million in a Budget of over R3 000 million. Now we hear about gross overspending. I think this matter can be very easily cleared up by reading the Afrikaans Hansard of 22.2.84 at column 1555. I do not wish to belabour this point any further except to say to the hon members for Hillbrow and Bezuidenhout that they must not come to this House and make derogatory remarks about the staff. I can defend myself but they must leave my staff out of this. Their talk of gross overspending is completely untrue. If it had not been for the increase in salaries on 1 January, which I think the hon member feels we should not have sanctioned; I just have the suspicion that the hon member did not want us to give the staff a better deal—we would have had a Budget in which there was no overspending. The hon member does not want the Post Office staff to be paid decent salaries. [Interjections.]

Let us take a good look at what has happened. The hon member says that there was no overspending or big budgets right up to 1981. He said that we had five years of no tariff increases. What are we actually talking about? The difference is like chalk and cheese. We changed over to an electronic digital system and, to achieve that, the whole country’s infrastructure had to be changed. We have to install electronic digital exchanges throughout the country. We are getting away from the old mechanical type of equipment. One of the hon members on that side asked whether we could not still use some of the old models. How can one marry the electronic digital system to the mechanical system and still expect to have a good service? Had we kept the mechanical system, we would not have been able to install one quarter of the telephones which we required. The decision to change over was not my decision. It was decided years ago and the decision was taken after very sound technical advice had been submitted to the then Minister who had the foresight to accept the advice. He then decided on the electronic digital system. We have put in the infrastructure.

Let us have a look at the budgets of the past years. In 1968 the capital expenditure amounted to the phenomenal amount of R46,3 million. In 1974-75 it jumped to R180 million. In 1977-78 R266 million was required. In 1980-81 we required R405 million. Since then there has been a rise. Why? Because of the effect of the decision to install the electronic digital system. Electronic digital exchanges had been ordered and from the 1981 year they had to be paid for. So, what did we get in 1982-83? The capital expenditure amounted to R855 million. In 1983-84 the amount was R1 015 million and for 1984-85 we budget for R1 276 million.

We are introducing a new system into the country. We are following the world-wide trend, not just because we want to spend money, but because we have to change from one system to another and, in order to do that, there must be a proper electronic digital infrastructure. We cannot keep pace with the demand for telephones. Every businessman knows that if there is a demand, one has to spend in order to satisfy that demand. One cannot cut down on one’s capital expenditure when there is a demand.

We have a so-called backlog, but it is not really a backlog. These people have not been waiting for years. In the course of three years we have installed 820 000 telephones. We aim—I said so in my Budget Speech—to install a further 300 000 telephones this year. Last year we spent a lot of capital on infrastructure in order to get our cable network going and to install exchanges, but this year we aim at installing 300 000 or more telephones. These additional telephones will generate the revenue we need. Does that look like a department that does not know where it is going?

The hon member for Hillbrow wanted to know how we plan. He suggested that we should plan one year ahead, but we plan ten years ahead. We have been installing cables ten years in advance in our infrastructure. We planned at least five years ahead for the installing of electronic digital exchanges. In this department there is not a single item which is planned for on a yearly basis.

The hon member for Hillbrow said that we should have a “blitz” operation. May the day never come that that hon member takes my place as Minister because there will be so many blitzes that nothing of the Post Office will be left.

The hon member calculated that if we should install a certain number of telephones at R75 each, we would earn a certain income. He tried to tell us how we could get rid of our losses. What does he think we are aiming at? If we install 300 000 telephones we shall be earning double the amount the hon member calculated. This is what we aim at in the coming year. We can only achieve that goal if we install those telephones and in order to install them, we have to provide the required capital.

The hon member wants me to get closer to the 50:50 ratio for income over borrowing when it comes to financing capital works. We all know that that is the ideal ratio, but as long as we have this high demand for telephones we shall never reach that ratio. We shall only reach that ratio once we have satisfied the demand, and by that time—of that I am quite sure—none of us will be here. There is a waiting-list for 240 000 telephones for the coming year and we have supplied 820 000 services within three years. There are 3,6 million telephones in South Africa. People tell me that if we want to measure prosperity you should do it on the basis of the relation between the number of telephones in a country and the population of that country. Even if we count the Black population in we still have one telephone for every six or seven persons, and it must be remembered that the Black population is only now exploding onto the market. They are only now earning salaries which will enable them to afford telephones. The same applies to the Coloured population. But the fact is that we have planned for them to come into the market. We planned for their economic upliftment.

The hon member spoke about the problems of eliminating the backlog. Perhaps I should give the hon member and the hon member for Bezuidenhout some indication of what is needed to provide a telephone in a home. It is not just a question of installing a plug, put the wire in and a terminal on the table. In the first place what is needed is an additional circuit in the local exchange. Then you need a cable lead from that exchange to the residence. Then you need connections between that exchange and all the other exchanges in the country, and not only in this country, but also in other countries, across the world. When the hon member wants to dial his business in London or in Hong Kong, he only has to get onto the telephone, dial the code and he is through. We have tried to give some indication of what is involved with our exhibition in the H F Verwoerd Building across the street. There we tried to give people an indication of the problems we have to provide an infrastructure. There are no instant solutions for this. No blitz operation can achieve it. If the Post Office staff had not been planning for five to 10 years ahead, we would have been so far behind today that we would have been back to the cleft stick and runner age, or the old crankhandle model of former years.

*I want to say to the hon member for Nigel that we cannot re-use our telephones. The basic facet of the digital, electronic system is the pressbutton system, and as we automate our exchanges we have to introduce the pressbutton system to replace the old units. We shall reach a point when everyone has a pressbutton telephone. This entails far less expenditure because there are no moving parts. Therefore they require far less maintenance.

†In fact the electro-mechanical system is disappearing throughout the world. Where we still need parts for these telephones we have to manufacture them in our own workshops, because even Siemens, the last of the suppliers, have told us that they are going to stop shortly with the production of electro-mechanical parts. What does the hon member want us to do? Does he not want us to keep everybody moving into a highly technical field, to keep our staff going and give them the extra little bit of encouragement to put in the infrastructure even if we have to go through a difficult period?

The hon member, and others, among them the hon member for Umhlanga, said we should get closer to the 50:50 ratio in financing capital works. But the only way we can do that is by raising tariffs and reducing our capital expenditure. That is the only way we can do it. The hon member for Hillbrow of course does not like raising tariffs. Not once in his time as spokesman on Post Office affairs did he support the raising of tariffs. I have looked at everyone of his speeches during every Budget debate, and I find that he has been either shocked or disappointed. The hon member must lead a terrible life, Sir. I would have thought that in regard to an important matter such as this the hon member would have got up and be full of the joys of being a South African citizen and being able to phone anybody at any time of the day or night and be sure that he will get through directly. The hon member raised a few other points. For example, he wants to know whether we will be able to see the Olympic Games. Of course we will be able to see the Olympic Games if the SABC and SATV enter into a contract with the people concerned. We will pick it up and will relay it to the SABC and SATV. We are not the suppliers of television programmes; we only pick them up by way of the satellites and our Earth Station. However, it is a very easy exercise. All we have to do is to pick it up and to relay it to them. I suggest that the hon member takes this matter up with the hon the Minister under whose jurisdiction the SABC and TV falls.

The hon member made a few other very interesting remarks which I cannot allow to go unanswered. He made reference to the expenditure on data, and implied that we are spending too much money on gimmicks and unnecessary things and that we are neglecting the installation of telephones. The hon member said that we are spending R21 million more on data this year. I took all my officials and we gathered round the table trying to figure out what this meant. After about a half an hour we realized that the hon member took the amounts under “Data Equipment” and “Data processing” and added the two additional amounts of expenditure for these two items together. The only common thing between these two items is the word “Data”. [Interjections.] The two amounts add up to about R19,8 million, which led the hon member to say that we are spending R20 million on data. The item “Data equipment” refers to our best seller, in respect of which there was an increase of 32% with regard to data modems. We buy the modems and let them to the private sector. This represents our best source of income. We have a waiting list of 6 000, but the hon member says that I am spending too much on data modems. The other item, namely “Data processing” is an administrative item. It refers to the computers we use for making out our cheques, for controlling our motor vehicle section and for running our various administrative systems. In this way we can have a day to day knowledge of what is going on. In fact, for the edification of the hon member for Umhlanga, I can say that the details of every motor car in the service of the Post Office are on a computer. For any given month we can see exactly how much petrol a motor car is using, what was spent on it, whether it has had a change of tyres or what its general condition is. We have decentralized all along the way and have inspectors who check up on these various items. There is no waste of money and it is not a hit and run system. However, the hon member for Hillbrow lumps this sum together with the amount for data modems and thinks that he has made an amazing discovery, namely that we are spending R20 million more on data. Data in itself is nothing. It must either be a data modem, or it must be data processing. [Interjections.] The amount for data processing is in the region of R14 million. [Interjections.] The hon member has painted himself into a corner and it is up to him to get out of it.

The hon member also raised the hardy annual of telephone tapping. Like all other countries in the Western World we intercept telephone communications between designated persons when this is essential in the interests of State security. Section 118A of the Post Office Act makes provision for it. The hon member for Hillbrow supported it. Subsection (2)(a) provides that for State security purposes, intelligence purposes and military purposes telephones can be tapped under certain conditions.

Why do you not publish a who’s who of telephones?

The hon member for Bryanston is a bit tapped himself.

The legal provisions of section 118A are very clear. Every now and then somebody comes up with the idea that his telephone is being tapped. The hon leader of the Conservative Party in fact challenged me from a platform during the last election to say that his telephone was not tapped. We have better things to do than to tap the telephone of the hon leader of the Conservative Party, that I can assure hon members. [Interjections.] I cannot see that he falls into the category of being a problem when it comes to State security.

I now want to tell hon members what happens at a particular post office when it is requested that somebodys telephone be tapped. I also want to refer to the question of lists. The hon member for Hillbrow seems to think that we have a chap sitting in a dark little office with a long fist and every now and then he adds a name and every six months he takes the names on top off the fist. The truth is that when we receive a request for a telephone to be tapped—if you want to call it that—it is dealt with by a particular official and he puts the request through to the area where it has to be done. He does not keep a list of everybody. It goes into a file. Every person who has something to do with the Post Office has a file, for instance when he has an account with us.

Is that how you found out about Carel Venter?

The hon member for Bryanston can be so amusing that he will still drive me to tears one day.

A person’s telephone can be tapped for six months, and it then stops automatically. There is therefore no problem with telephone tapping. It is done all over the world where necessary in State interest. The Rabie Commission and the Advocate-General gave their views on this, and I therefore cannot see what the problem of the hon member is in regard to this. He wants to know if there is a list and I can tell him that there is no list. He can ask the Postmaster-General and his deputies and they will tell him that we do not keep a special list that lands on my table every morning so that I can see whose telephone is being tapped. I am not interested to see whose telephone is being tapped.

In answer to my question you said that there was a list.

The hon member does not even read my answers properly. If the hon member has proof that I said that, he can show it to me after my speech. There is one final question which I want to ask the Leader of the Opposition as I do not think the hon member for Hillbrow will answer it. Does he want us to remove section 118A from the Post Office Act so that there can be no tapping?

*The hon Leader refuses to say anything. I am putting a simple question to him. Does he suggest that section 118A, which provides for tapping, be deleted? What does the hon member for Houghton say?

I said that you are abusing it.

The hon member cannot prove what she is alleging. I doubt if we will ever be interested in listening to the hon member’s telephone conversations. In any event it will not be on account of State security considerations but maybe for the fun of it. I leave the matter by saying that this is necessary in the Western world and we will do it according to the Act, which the Opposition supported fully when it was discussed, and, judging from the reaction of the hon Leader of the Opposition it does not seem that he wants this section removed.

If you are going to abuse it the way you have been doing.

That is a very interesting remark. I asked the hon the Leader of the Opposition whether he wanted us to remove the article, and he did not say a word; he merely looked at me. I now ask him again whether he does not want it removed. Again he is just looking at me. He can say either that it should be removed or that it should remain.

Will you give me a list?

Now the hon the Leader wants a list, but what does he want to know about the list? I have already told him that there is no list. I again want to ask him a very simple question: Does he want section 118A to be retained, or does he want me to propose that it be removed?

Have you ever tapped my telephone, yes or no?

The hon the Leader of the Opposition cannot get away with that kind of reaction. He wants to accuse the Government of tapping telephone conversations, but he and his party lack the courage to say whether we should retain the section or whether we should remove it. [Interjections.]

That was not the question.

Now the hon member for Groote Schuur is also making interjections. What I find interesting is that if one debates with the official Opposition, one has a loudish “blaf" (bark) from one or two of them, and then lots of little yappers running around the big “blaf" trying to put the speaker off his stroke.

You are just a big bluff.

That hon member is a big bluff. I said “blaf" not “bluff". For the moment I am going to leave the hon member at that and turn to the hon member for Bezuidenhout. I am spending some time on the two members because they said certain things that one cannot allow to pass unchallenged.

†The hon member for Bezuidenhout started off by saying that he was confused by our bookkeeping system. That is fair enough. That is an admission with which I have every sympathy. The interesting part is, however, that a professor in charge of the Business School at one of our important universities has complimented my staff on our accounting system and said that it is probably the best of all the systems used by State institutions. This hon member is confused by our accounting system, but I think I must rather take this professor’s word that it is a good accounting system. If the hon member has any problems with our accounting system, I can tell him that I have clerks all the way down to the postmen who will explain it to him.

Mr Speaker, I would just like to know from the hon the Minister whether the professor examined the system of the SATS as well. [Interjections.]

I think I shall reply to the hon the Minister in private, for if the professor has examined it, he has probably not finished his investigation, because it is a very complicated system.

†A particular item the hon member for Bezuidenhout could not understand in the Budget was Item No 1.1.2.10, “Other payments”, involving an amount of R60 million. That appears on page 3 of the Estimates. This is actually a pensionable allowance. It is not salaries. The hon member will remember that, when we granted the increase of 12% on 1 January, that was not an addition to the salaries but a pensionable allowance. It had to be shown that way because of certain accounting problems. What happened was that it was put under this item as “Other payments”. The hon member was quite correct when he said that it appeared to him to be about 12% of the salaries. It was put in there for two reasons: It did not fit under salaries because it was a pensionable allowance and, secondly, we decided on that particular item reasonably late and that is why it appears at the bottom of that particular list. It is, however, fitted in in exactly the right place. However, it does perhaps look a little difficult to understand. I give the hon member his full due there.

The hon member also made some very uncomplimentary remarks about Prestel. He also said a lot of things about Beltel which I think he could have left unsaid. To say that the Prestel videotex service is a disaster is to speak without the complete facts. The hon member must rather get the complete facts first. Prestel got off to a slow start because they originally adopted an incorrect approach and also because the other videotex systems were allowed to compete with them. Therefore, they started off with a problem. Prestel have now changed their tactics and I can tell the hon member that today Prestel is a very successful business. They already have approximately 40 000 terminals and their use is accelerating at present. That is according to the very latest information. The videotex service is an exciting new service.

Forty thousand in the whole of England?

Yes, but it has just started now. In fact, it started with one … [Interjections.] … and it is now up to 40 000 and there will be further progress. Videotex is an exciting service with tremendous possibilities. All the major Post Office administrations in the world are either experimenting with or introducing this service. Not only will Videotex provide unlimited information via the telephone line, but being interactive it will also make home banking possible. This is already the case with Standard Bank. It will also make home shopping possible, as well as all sorts of video games and even—this will interest the hon member—home education. This will be one of the main programs. The interface equipment will enable one to couple the telephone to the home television. The system is also coming down in price, as all Videotex terminals are. It is a feature of the electronic world that as soon as they start producing an article its price comes down. The hon member should go along with us and he will find it a nice, cheap type of restful experience.

Let us look at another few important things. This whole effort, after two years of work, has cost us less than R1,5 million. The hon member is so worried about Beitel. It forms only a small part of our total budget of nearly R4 000 million. The hon member spent nearly half of his speech—I went through it—on Beitel. We are sure the system is going to be very successful. The business sector wants it and in general even families want it. We have been careful enough to ensure that the terminal equipment will be able to be used for something else in the event of a possible problem with Beltel at a later stage. We are quite sure that with our marketing survey that is now starting, by the time we are ready to offer this particular service there will be a bigger need for it than there has probably been in many other parts of the world. Let me give hon members an idea. The department will provide the computers and the gateways to other computers, such as supermarkets and banks, and information providers will provide the information and terminals while interface units will be provided by licenced suppliers. Private enterprise will do that. During this period we have had 103 information providers, 813 users, 20 000 pages of information and a gateway into Standard Bank, Info, Southern Life and Checkers. This is our experimental stage. Up till now it has cost us some R1,5 million. Surely the hon member must agree that in the electronic age that we live in we can afford to spend this small amount because we will get it all back as soon as the system works properly.

I just warned you to look out for the mistakes others made.

I will give heed to the hon member’s warning. One must be very careful for any new development in the electronic field.

The hon member made another very interesting remark. When he referred to overspending, I asked him whether he would not have spent that money—that is the money that was spent on salaries. He replied that he would have spent it in a different way but he did not go on to say in what way. What would he have done with that R133 million, except to allocate it to salaries and other staff benefits? This is an easy question. The hon member must have had something in mind. We spent it on salaries and on the improvement of staff working conditions. Although we did not have the money, we brought their salaries and benefits up to date and into line with those of the Public Service. What did the hon member have in mind? What would he have liked to spend the money on?

*The hon member is not answering now. He says that I have to spend the money on other matters and not on staff. Remember, I am in trouble because I spent the money on staff benefits. Now the hon member says that he does not know what he would have spent it on. I want to leave the hon member at that for the moment. I appreciate his point of view at times, but he must recall that it is easy to stand up in this House and make a speech about a business with a budget turnover of approximately R4 000 million. Last night I pointed out that the Post Office banks R30 million daily through 1 600 post offices. This is not a business that one can control merely by having a few ignorant people in charge. There sit the top management. I have the fullest confidence in them as regards the handling of our financial affairs, technical affairs and staff affairs. They are the heartbeat of this great enterprise.

[Inaudible.]

But the hon member does not wish to pay them.

Let me just deal briefly with the amendments moved by the hon member. I cannot, of course, accept the amendment but he covered a great many issues with it.

†In the first place he asked the Government to undertake to confine total expenditure to the limits set in the Budget. We do that, of course. However, should conditions improve towards the end of this year and I am in a position to increase salaries, does the hon member for Hillbrow not want me to do that?

No. You must give it but cut down your own expenditure.

If I should increase salaries I would increase the limits set in the Budget and this the hon member does not approve of. [Interjections.]

Secondly, the hon member suggests that we should revise the tariff increases to take the burden off the consumer. Let us talk about inflation. The effect of this Budget on the inflation rate is 0,1%. In the meantime our inflation rate has been coming down steadily, and the hon member knows this.

0,1 %?

Yes, 0,1%. After 1 April this Budget will affect the inflation rate by 0,1% and in two to three years’ time the effect will only be 0,2% to perhaps 0,25%. In other words, it will have a one-tenth of a per cent—0,1%—effect on the inflation rate. Yet everybody who opposes the Government says that this is an inflationary Budget. What did Mr Murray, who is chairman of the consultative advisory committee of the private sector, say on television recently? He said that in his opinion 9% was a very reasonable rise in tariffs. What did this committee say to one of my deputy directors a few weeks ago when they had a meeting to discuss a rise in tariffs and possible trends in the Budget? They told my deputy director that the private sector prefers reasonable small rises every year instead of a jump every now and again. The hon member for Bezuidenhout is a businessman. Does he run his businesses in a stop-start way? He has the record in lifting businesses out of the depths of despair and placing them on a good financial footing again. Does he achieve that by reducing tariffs or the price of whatever commodity he sells, or does he work out what is needed and put up the price accordingly?

The hon member for Hillbrow also asks in his amendment that the Government should give priority in the expenditure of capital to eliminating the backlog in respect of applications for telephones. We are already doing this.

He further asks that the Government should undertake to guarantee privacy to individual telephone subscribers. I have already given that guarantee. In the circumstances there is no sense in accepting this amendment because if we accept it we will have to wait six months before we can carry on with the business of the Post Office.

I should now like to address myself to the hon member for Umhlanga. The hon member moved a peculiar amendment but made a reasonable speech. Indeed, I have always found him to be a reasonable man. He referred to some things he felt we should try to do. However, we have been doing most of these things for years. The hon member also said that the Budget fails to meet the criteria of sound business management in that it resorts almost exclusively to tariff increases in order to balance the Budget. That is not correct. We borrow far more money than the tariff increases yield to balance our Budget. As a matter of fact, that is something I am concerned about. We cannot continue borrowing money in an effort to keep tariffs down. We will have to become more tariff and cost related if we want to keep this business solid.

The hon member also spoke about inflation. What has this Government done in regard to inflation? The hon member for Bezuidenhout spoke about the rise in the inflation rate. In March 1982, two years ago, the inflation rate was 15,4%; in June 1982 it rose to 16,1%, but in January 1984 the rate was down to 10,3%. This has been achieved because every Government department, from the smallest to the biggest, also the Post Office and the Railways, are trying to combat inflation in an effort to give us more buying power. How can the hon member allege then that we resort almost exclusively to tariff increases? It is not correct to make such a statement. I believe the hon member is a reasonable person. I also believe that once I have dealt with all the problems he raised during his speech he will ask for leave to withdraw his amendment. His amendment does not really make sense. [Interjections.] When one looks at what the hon member asks for in his amendment it really does not make sense. We have had the survey by the International Postal Union in connection with the productivity of the 22 major postal administrations. The investigation was specifically focused on the volume of mail handled. That investigation revealed that the South Africa Postal Administration compared favourably with those of other countries. That is borne out by figures which I will shortly quote for the edification of the hon member for Umhlanga.

That investigation also revealed another interesting thing, namely that our Post Office workers were working two hours a week longer than workers employed in any other branch of the Public Service. This they do voluntarily and by arrangement with their own staff associations. What is more is that they seem to like working two hours longer every week. That is because they are a happy crowd of people. The survey to which I have just referred, revealed that in 1980 the following number of items were handled per employee: South Africa, 88 620; Australia, 76 424; The United Kingdom, 56 388; West Germany, 47 862. This proves that even the International Postal Union was impressed with the productivity of postal workers in South Africa. This happens to be the one department in which productivity can be measured. There is a specific number of items, a specific number of people handling them, and that enables one to measure productivity. Six million items are handled daily by the General Post Office in Johannesburg alone. Every single postal item entering that post office is processed by the end of the day. Not a single one is ever held over for the next day.

In connection with productivity programmes I should just like to point out that we do have an in-house productivity programme, which enjoys the full support of the staff associations. Practicable productivity measurement is computerized, for example the number of staff employed on mail encoding. It is actually computerized so that we know exactly how much work every staff member does. We have in the past enlisted the assistance and the expertise of the National Productivity Institute in our efforts to increase our productivity. We are at present again consulting with the National Productivity Institute in connection with a further programme, which will not only cover labour productivity but also productivity measurements on material used under capital investment. We are going even further in order to see whether our productivity measurements are valid.

When one looks at our staff growth over the past five years the figure is impressive. The growth in staff employed by our telephone services was 46,8%—50% more than five years ago. Telex staff increased by 92%, and yet in technically skilled staff we have only had an increase of 7,6%. These people must by carrying a much bigger load than before but they do also employ better methods and their productivity is better controlled.

Married women form the backbone of our system. The pattern of the flow of mail is such that the bulk only becomes available for processing towards the late afternoon. Married women very often cannot work during normal office hours and we are therefore compelled to use our chief personnel to work overtime in order to obviate delays in the flow of mail. Strict control over overtime is enforced. Very often vacancies are covered without incurring overtime because other members of the staff perform unpaid overtime duties as a matter of course. Overtime is also part of our productivity. We keep the postal services going even when female workers go home to be with their families.

The hon member also asked me several questions about housing. He wanted to know whether people who could not afford it were not allowed to buy too expensive houses. He also said something about people with a champagne taste and a beer pocket income. As regards these remarks one must explain that there is a correlation, as in the Public Service, between the salary of an official and the amount of the housing loan he can obtain. The amount of his bond is also kept within limits by the fact that his monthly bond repayment may not exceed 25% of his monthly income. There is therefore no real danger of an official obtaining housing beyond his means. There are ways of controlling this and we take great care to make sure that no irregularities occur. We do control this of course because it is in the interests of Post Office staff.

The hon member also asked about leasing of accommodation and whether we could not lease instead of build. More than half of our 1 600 post offices are actually leased. The hon member will have noticed from the Budget that there is an amount of R13,8 million in respect of leases for post offices and other buildings whereas in 1980-81 the amount was only R2,2 million. While the trend is rather to lease, we do have specialized buildings such as high security risk buildings which we have to erect and not hire.

The hon member also referred to the amount of R74,4 million spent in respect of transport. Of this amount approximately R16,7 million is in respect of our own vehicles. In this regard I think I told the hon member that we have decentralized and computerized to such an extent that we know the performance of every vehicle and what is going into every vehicle. The other amounts are in respect of hiring services with the SATS and other departments, couriers and so forth. We try to make certain work available to them in this way as well.

The hon member was very honest when he said that he did not have all the answers. As Minister I do not for one moment say that I have all the answers either. However, I do have the machinery to help me, namely computerization, knowledgeable staff, productivity tests and calling in the assistance of the private sector. We have had business schools helping us with certain problems. I am quite sure that the improvement of our whole system depends upon working hand in hand with one another together with good management and maximum productivity. Actually, the hon member mentioned that fact. However, I do want to point out to him that we are doing our best. Here and there we may be a trifle slow but we are doing our best to achieve the goals which he himself has set and which I am sure he would also like us to achieve because he is a man who obviously would like to see the Post Office flourish.

I think that with that I have covered all the main points raised by the hon member. Should there be any other points I have missed, perhaps we can deal with them at the Committee Stage.

*I now turn to some of the other hon members who spoke. The hon member for Nigel spoke about the effect of inflation. As a businessman he will probably concede that the effect of this budget, which is only 0,1% of the inflation rate, will be minimal. We need to make tremendous progress in order to generate revenue and this is a chance one has to take. In the year that lies ahead we must try to install about 300 000 telephones. Then, too, there are other services we have to provide so that we can collect money. I do not think that that is so inflationary. Nor do I think that we must discuss it in the same breath as increases in the prices of bread and sugar etc. The Post Office must not be drawn into that picture. Hon members must speak to my other colleagues in that regard.

We supply a service and we must keep this business enterprise sound. If the Post Office were to collapse—and this is the warning I have to sound in this House—the burden will be that of the Government alone. If it is the Government’s burden, then it becomes the responsibility of the Treasury, and all of us sitting here will have to put our hands in our pockets to pay for the infrastructure for another person who wants to use a telephone. That is not fair. A person who wants to use this service must be sure that he can pay for that service. He will also have to be prepared to accept increases from year to year as costs increase. I hope we shall manage this year and my top management and I will do our utmost in this regard. In all probability I shall in any event have to come to this House with more tariff increases next year. If we could only attain the level at which we had installed enough telephones to generate the income then we could begin to scale down on the other side. However, we have not yet reached that level. The demand for telephones is so high that we shall have to install a great many over the next number of years. The department has carried out planning in regard to the market among the Coloureds, the Indians and the Blacks and in view of the improvement in their economic situation they are now in the market for telephones. The approximately 3,6 million Whites—there are not too many among the people of colour—are gradually beginning to reach saturation point, but amongst the people of colour the demand is increasing strongly. In order to be able to build up a good service for everyone, we shall all have to contribute on the basis of paying as one uses the service.

In his amendment the hon member referred to the crowding-out of the Whites in our post offices. I am just as concerned about that and he need not be concerned. As far as I am concerned it is a matter of a good enterprise and the exclusion of irritations so that everyone may be served without anyone feeling that he is being crowded out, if we must use that word. We believe in communities, as I said last night. If there are complaints and problems we deal with them, right up to the place where the problem is being experienced, and we try to solve them. There are few such problems that we have not yet fully resolved at this stage.

As far as the nursery schools, restaurants and sports facilities are concerned, these are staff matters dealt with by the staff themselves. They deal with them themselves, and I am quite satisfied that they should deal with them in the way that they are doing. If this is community bound, then I do not see why it should be any different to the way it is dealt with now.

The hon member for Nigel also discussed the tariffs. Doubt is always expressed with regard to comparisons between our tariffs and those of other countries. People will want to know how we can be compared with West Germany. A short time ago the World Postal Union compared the world’s 22 top administrations. We, too, number among those 22 top administrations. As an equalizing factor they make use of the gold franc to determine how every country compares with the rest. As far as postage for letters is concerned, they find that South Africa has the second lowest postage rate. In our case it is 0,28 gold francs; in the USA it is 0,51—twice as high—in Australia, 0,61; in Britain, 0,75—three times as high—and in West Germany, 0,79—three times as high. Therefore our tariffs are entirely comparable. They worked out an index which they call the purchasing power parity index whereby such factors as inflation are taken into account. Our tariff is equal to one-third of that of Britain and one-half of that of the USA. Therefore we do not have a tariff which comes anywhere near a cost-effective tariff, and in fact we should keep it that way. Then, if there have to be increases in the tariffs, they must take place gradually so that the consumer will be able to carry them. We must not have no increases for a number of years and then suddenly announce major increases.

The hon member also spoke about the training of members of the other population groups. It will be found in the annual report that three people of colour are being trained as engineers with the aid of Post Office bursaries. In 1979 there were 570 people of colour in the rank of pupil technician, but today there are more than 2 000 of them. The number of Coloureds, Indians and Blacks on our staff has increased from 29 354 in 1979 to more than 38 000 in 1983, an increase of approximately 9 000 over the past five years. These people are used very judiciously at places where they can render service near to their own dwelling places and also where they can serve their own people.

I referred earlier to the hon member for Sunnyside, and when we reach the Committee Stage, I shall speak to him again. At the moment he is still a little angry with me and perhaps he should simmer down a little first.

I wish to convey my sincere thanks to hon members on this side of the House for their sound contributions. The speech by the hon member for Umlazi was one of the best speeches I have ever heard in the Post Office budget debate. He is the chief spokesman on this side. What I found even more praiseworthy was his faultless English. It is really praiseworthy when a Botha speaks English like that. I thank him for his contribution. To the other members of the management of our study group, the hon members for Boksburg and Overvaal, and our other auxiliary speakers, I want to say that when one sits here as a Minister and hear the arguments they advance, one is filled with pride. In fact, the hon member for Umlazi dealt with the hon member for Hillbrow. It was not really necessary for me to say anything today. The hon member made the important point that the hon member for Hillbrow was inconsistent in his statements. One year he is opposed to increases and the next year he is in favour of them. One year he wants more capital spent and the next year, less. One year he asks for more telephones and the next he says that we must not provide telephone services. This year, however, there was a mistake. I think that this year the hon member got someone else to write his speech; I think it was written by one of the other members in his group. It must have been someone who knew nothing about the Post Office because I cannot believe that the hon member for Hillbrow knows so little about Post Office affairs. I simply do not believe it.

In conclusion, I once again wish to convey my thanks to the hon members on my side for their contributions and for the way in which they dealt with various aspects. It is a pleasure to be Minister if one has a group that pulls its weight as they have.

Question put: That all the words after “That” stand part of the Question,

Upon which the House divided:

Mr Chairman, during the Committee Stage of this Bill last year I posed a number of questions to the hon the Minister. He counted them as 14, but I am not quite sure about the number myself. I have a few this year, but again I have not counted them. Last year the hon the Minister was very kind in replying by letter to all the questions I posed, because obviously he could not reply at that stage. No doubt he will do the same this year.

What I cannot understand about his reply to the Second Reading debate, is why he was so upset about the criticism of the Budget which came from this side of the House. What did he expect from the official Opposition? Surely he could not have expected praise, particularly not for this Budget. Listening to his Second Reading speech on Tuesday was like listening to a litany of despair. Studying the schedule of tariff increases, which runs to 8 typed pages, was a most depressing and overwhelming experience. There is hardly an item of service which is provided by the Post Office which has not been increased. Some of them are inconsistent. For example, there is a 5% increase for overseas calls, a 14% increase for calls to Bophuthatswana, a 6% increase for overseas calls which are manually operated, while the calls to Mozambique are unchanged. It might be that there has been a heavy increase in the volume of traffic between South Africa and Mozambique and that there is an unchanged situation in that regard. In spite of all that, the hon the Minister can make all the deductions he wishes about the increases. He says that the increases are 9%. He can come to all the conclusions he wishes, but the bottom line is that members of the public will be paying a considerable amount more for services provided by the Department of Posts and Telecommunications.

I cannot understand why he should be upset because when he announces that local telephone calls are to be increased from 7 cents a unit to 8 cents a unit, an increase of 14%, should we thank him? When the hon the Minister increases telephone rentals from R6 to R7 per month, an increase of 17%, should we express our appreciation? No doubt when he increased the cost of mailing a letter by 10% he would have liked us to beam with pleasure. No, Sir, the hon the Minister has indulged himself in an orgy of tariff increases and a splurge of spending. We cannot thank him for that because …

You have been indoctrinated by Malcomess.

No, Sir. I have been listening to that hon member. That function has been undertaken by his praise-singers, both on that side of the House and to the NRP. We would indeed be failing in our duty as an Opposition and as representatives of our constituencies if we did not highlight the weaknesses in this very bad Budget.

The hon the Minister became upset yesterday when the hon member for Hillbrow said that this was the worst Budget ever presented to this House by an hon Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. The hon the Minister has been in politics for a long time and one would have thought that he would have been a little less sensitive. There is no doubt that this is a bad Budget as it has caused shock waves to ripple through the economy, shock waves already set in motion by the many price and tariff increases, such as bread, milk, hospitals, water and petrol increases. These have all been announced during the past few weeks.

The hon the Minister and many other speaker are fond of comparing the Post Office to a business. If it is to be regarded as a business, and I have no reason to suggest that it should not, then it has to be run according to business principles. In difficult economic times, or when capital expansion is planned, there are two options open to businessmen. One is to cut costs and the other is to increase production. It is as simple as that. There is no evidence in this Budget that either of these options have been seriously considered. Any business in competition with its neighbours, has to be most cautious before increasing prices. The hon the Minister does not have this restraint. He simply issues an eight page schedule of tariff increases right across the board. As I have mentioned, there is hardly an item of service rendered by the Post Office which has not been increased.

The hon the Minister also accused the hon member for Hillbrow of attacking the staff of the Post Office. This is simply not so. We in these benches have the highest regard for Mr Bester and all his men, and we have often said so. I make a point, whenever I have something to say about Post Office matters, to mention how pleased I am with the treatment which I receive from Mr Bester and members of his staff. We are in fact treated most courteously and expeditiously. It is not the Post Office staff who are to blame. It is the hon the Minister who must take the blame for bad budgeting. The buck stops on his desk.

Many suggestions have been made regarding cost cutting, for instance in respect of overtime and other staff expenses, materials and services, transport, printing of telephone directories, etc. These suggestions are not made in a destructive or negative manner. We wish to ensure that all the options of cutting costs have been thoroughly investigated—not once but at least twice. I want to refer to one example, namely the printing of telephone directories. A provision of R20 million is made for this item alone. This is a great deal of money. I am aware that the printing contract for the directories is finalized on a 10-year basis. In passing I would question the wisdom of that decision because enormous progress takes place in a 10-year period. One can only look at calculators. It is easy to use a hand-held calculator today, but look at what we used 10 years ago. We had little desk sets with lead things that jumped up and down when one pulled the handle. Great advances are being made, and I would therefore question the wisdom of a 10-year contract. The fact of the matter is, however, that a 10-year contract has been placed. What I would like to know is whether there is not any possibility of looking at it afresh with a view of obtaining some advertising. The pretty pictures on the front covers of the directories are very attractive, but I wonder if they could not be replaced with full-cover, expensive advertisements.

You just want to commercialize …

That hon member may know a lot about election predictions, but he does not know anything about advertising. He should just listen. He might learn something.

What about increasing production? Mention has been made of the suggestion that telephones in Soweto should be installed as quickly as possible. The hon member for Hillbrow referred to a Soweto “blitz”, but this was not very acceptable to the hon the Minister. I cannot understand why not, because it was acceptable to a previous Minister. [Interjections.] In his reply in the Committee Stage last year, the hon the Minister indicated that the Soweto backlog would be wiped out. What is the real position, however? At the end of 1982 there was a waiting list of 27 660 applications. At the end of 1983 this had increased, in spite of however many telephones had been installed, by 3 904 to 31 564. I suggest that something is wrong in this area and I think it should indicate to the hon the Minister that he should rectify the matter. He can call it something else if he does not like the word “blitz”, but the sooner he gets the telephones into Soweto, the sooner he will start earning badly needed revenue. This applies to the whole of South Africa.

While we are talking about telephones, I want to raise with the hon the Minister the question of the cost of overseas telephone calls. He proposes an increase of 5% to R3,52 per minute. That is to say, every minute during which one makes a call to any overseas country, it will cost R3,52.

[Inaudible.]

Well, I hope that the hon the Minister will change his mind after I have had a few words with him. There is no rebate for any extended period or for any calls after hours. I hope the hon the Minister will recall that last year, when I raised this matter with him, he replied to me by letter on 7 June saying that, because of the big time difference between South Africa and countries with which we have direct dialling, it would not be a practicable arrangement. Now the hon the Minister in his speech on Tuesday quoted a number of tariff comparisons with overseas countries. He spoke about the cost of making a telephone call over a distance of 100 km which would now cast 48c per three minutes in South Africa as compared with 94c in Germany, 134c in France, 56c in Switzerland, 72c in Japan and so on.

Order! I am sorry to interrupt the hon member but his time has expired.

Mr Chairman, I rise merely to give the hon member the opportunity to complete his speech.

I thank the hon member for his kind gesture.

I have in a similar way compared costs of overseas telephone calls. I am advised that in the USA, for instance, a direct-dial overseas call between six in the morning and noon costs $2,89 for the first minute and $1,48 for each additional minute. From noon until five in the afternoon the first minute costs $2,17 and each additional minute costs $1,11. From five in the afternoon until six in the morning the rates are reduced considerably to $1,73 for the first minute and 89c for each additional minute. Hon members will note, therefore, that there is a considerable difference in the cost of a call from New York to Cape Town and from Cape Town to New York. Inquiries reveal a similar tariff structure in the United Kingdom. I am told that in Whitehall and in large business organizations, when they try to cut costs, they tell their staff to make their long-distance calls in the afternoons because they are cheaper. Both these countries experience big time differences with other countries and there is no reason why similar varying tariffs should not be considered for South Africa. I have no doubt that, by reducing the rate in this way, the Minister will increase traffic and thereby increase revenue. I trust he will give this his earnest consideration.

Another matter I wish to raise regarding telephones is the question of Christmas rates. I discovered while in the United Kingdom towards the end of last year that the British Post Office offers a special rate during off-peak periods over Christmas. This encourages people to contact their family and friends at this time of the year. Once again, the reduced rate will increase traffic and revenue. I hope the hon the Minister will also consider that suggestion. If petrol stations can be opened during the Christmas holidays for longer periods, why can it not be made easier and cheaper for people to phone their family and friends at that time?

Not everything is bad news however. I just briefly want to refer to the fact that last year I raised with the hon the Minister the matter of the Birdhaven service centre. He subsequently advised me by letter that this project had been abandoned. I simply want to place on record the appreciation of the residents of this area for his decision.

The second matter concerning my constituency is the Saxonwold post office. I also raised this last year, and the hon the Minister wrote to me saying that the whole question was being monitored. The Saxonwold post office is right in the centre of the Rose-bank shopping district and serve shops, residents and many offices that have been established in that area. Rosebank has become almost a mini CBD. We believe the facilities of the post office are inadequate to cope with the enormous demand being made by that community. The hon the Minister replied last year that he was going to monitor the situation, as I have said, but I would like him to have another look at it. At the same time I would ask him to look at the post offices at Northlands and Parkhurst as well. In fact, I would like him during the recess to come and visit that area and have a look at the facilities that are available to the people of that area. I am sure that he will enjoy a visit to Johannesburg North. He will find that we are very friendly and hospitable people. We shall be very pleased to see him there.

Lastly, during the course of the debate on the Additional Post Office Appropriation Bill a few weeks ago I mentioned that I had been in East Berlin towards the end of the last year and that I had sent some postcards to some of my friends in South Africa, including the hon comrades for Turffontein and Stilfontein. I have been advised that the postcards have arrived. Both these comrades tell me that they have received their postcards. I am very pleased that they have arrived. Whether it was through the hon the Minister’s good offices or through those of President Machel I am not quite sure. I am however grateful that they have arrived.

Mr Chairman, one is grateful that the hon member for Johannesburg North also displayed a certain degree of gratitude and addressed such friendly requests to the hon the Minister. In the same vein I should also like to make a request to the hon the Minister. On 26 February 1981 I lodged a plea for a new post office to be erected in Rosettenville. On 17 March 1983 I again pointed out the necessity for a new and efficient post office in my constituency.

On Friday, 18 March 1983—approximately a year ago—the hon the Minister reacted to my request and said that a new site had been identified and the possibility was being considered of erecting a modern building as soon as the necessary finances could be found. I have heard rumours that there is a possibility that a beautiful Government building could possibly be completed by the end of 1986. I hope that the necessary funds will be found for it.

I want to emphasize yet again that the present post office in Rosettenville is housed in leased premises of 173 square metres and that the present building was occupied as long ago as 8 November 1952. This is a grade 3 office, with a staff consisting of a postmaster, a superintendent and eight clerks who have to work in that limited space. In addition the post office only has 200 post office boxes, all of which have been rented out. If one considers the increase in the number of residents and business undertakings in Rosettenville, 200 post office boxes are far too few. The post office also lies on the route along which all the southbound traffic between Alberton and the city travels. For that reason I feel that at least 2 000 post office boxes are needed, if future expansion is also borne in mind.

In South Hills there are 850 private post office boxes, for example. At the Hillex post office, which is also housed in leased premises, there are 250 post office boxes. Outside that post office there is at present tremendous congestion because the NP office is right next door. Many people—including English-speaking people, young people and children—visit the NP office in view of the coming by-election, and as a result there is tremendous congestion. I just want to mention that we use that post office fairly often.

The Townsview post office is only 1 km from the envisaged new site. This post office is also situated in a less well-to-do area, and if we could amalgamate it with the new post office which is going to be erected only a kilometre away, this would mean a great deal to that area.

Another reason that can be advanced for a new post office is the inadequate housing of the telephone exchanges in Rosettenville and its environs. On 29 February of this year there were 8 115 working lines and 481 deferred applications. By June 1985 provision will therefore have to have been made for the extension of 1 500 lines. In addition there are 46 public call offices in the area. In the Turffontein, Booysens and South Hills areas there are 44 mailmen who deliver 35 000 mail items every day, and in Rosettenville alone there are more than 1 000 people who receive social pensions every month. It is very interesting to look at these figures. In Johannesburg, for example, 3 250 000 mail items are handled every day.

This year the appropriation makes provision for R85,5 million for buildings, whereas last year this figure was only R46,1 million. It is therefore clear that the Post Office is constantly expanding, particularly when one takes note of the fact that they are constantly acquiring more land, erecting new buildings and providing accommodation for staff. This year 13 new automatic exchanges and four new post office buildings are also being envisaged, while 108 projects are under construction and 28 major building works have already been completed.

We are also grateful for the announcement that the hon the Minister of Mineral and Energy Affairs made yesterday in connection with the Koeberg power station. On page 6 of the annual report of the Post Office it is indicated that the microwave transmission systems with 1 260 channels will operate from Nelspruit to Maputo. An important matter which requires a great deal of attention is the role that electrical power and its generation plays in posts and telecommunications.

I can understand why the PFP is very sensitive. The hon the Minister said we were planning 10 years ahead, and in many respects the PFP is suffering from delayed shock, because they do not want to admit that expansion must take place. I want to ask the hon the Leader of the Opposition and the hon members for Groote Schuur, Cape Town Gardens and Constantia, in particular, whether they are opposed to the erection of a microwave tower and a multistorey equipment building in Cape Town that are to be completed in May 1984 at an estimated cost of R11,5 million?

Are the hon members for Durban Central and Berea opposed to various installations for digital apparatus which are being erected in Durban Central and which will be completed in May 1984 at an estimated cost of R2,8 million? Are the hon members for Port Elizabeth Central and Walmer opposed to a new regional office, which will be completed in December 1988, being erected in Port Elizabeth at an estimated cost of R13 million?

Are the hon members for Hillbrow, Bezuidenhout, Johannesburg North, Yeoville and Houghton opposed to the erection of a new postal centre in Johannesburg which is to be completed in May 1987 at a cost tentatively estimated at R58 million? Are the hon members for Pietermaritzburg North and Pietermaritzburg South opposed to internal changes—which should be completed by April 1986—at a cost tentatively estimated at R185 000?

Those hon members must tell us where the money is to come from to finance all these projects. Perhaps the hon member for Parktown could tell us where the money should come from. Are the rich people of Parktown prepared to give us the capital we need for all these developments?

I also want to refer to the contributions the Post Office officials have made to charity. These people really contribute in a commendable way to charity. During the past year they have, of their own accord, collected R55 744 for charity. For charitable services of the Post Office itself they collected R59 000. This gives us a total of R114 744. They also contributed R25 000 for the Laingsburg flood disaster. They collected R6 616 for the National Council for the Blind. This is a total of R246 360 for the past year. This is indeed a wonderful achievement.

In particular I want to thank the Postmaster-General most sincerely for the fact that while he was still the Regional Director in Johannesburg, we could also obtain a contribution for Die Transvaler’s Christmas Fund. It is also worthwhile noting the amount the Post Office contributes annually to Die Vaderland’s “Strandfonds”, to Die Burger’s Christmas Fund and to the Cape Times’s Fresh Air Fund.

If we take note of all these contributions, it is clear that the employees of the Post Office also make a major contribution in this connection. We are very grateful for the fact that they collect money—through which various charitable organizations are assisted—in an organized way every year. The contributions they made in 1983, of their own accord, constituted a great achievement indeed. This attests to a wonderful spirit of goodwill. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I should like to say a few things about mailcollecting points. Mention is also made of this in the Post Office’s annual report. In my constituency there is also such a mail-collecting point, in fact at Rondebult. The whole system works very simply. It only needs a small building. It utilizes a very small labour force, and each person’s mail-box has the same number as his residential erf. On payment of a very small fee, one obtains keys to a mail-box. Since the majority of the people in my constituency are working people who only get home very late, I think that when this mail-collecting point was made available to them a few years ago, a very important milestone was reached. They can even obtain postage stamps from a slot machine there.

I should now very much like to direct a request to the hon the Minister. In my constituency there are quite a few new residential areas, and some people, for example those living in Talbotpark and Groeneweide, have problems because the mail services are not fully co-ordinated. Mail is delivered from Boksburg. Parcel and other services are furnished by the Post Office at Elspark. So the mail services there are not of the standard we would like them to be. Letters, too, are often delivered very late. At times notices of meetings are, for example, delivered well after the meetings have been held.

I therefore want to ask whether it is not possible to make such a mail-collecting point available for those two residential areas too. It will also avoid having postmen, who at times have to do their work under very difficult circumstances, and sometimes even run the gauntlet of confrontations with fierce dogs, perform this service any longer. Nor are deliveries by postmen as regular and reliable as the delivery service at a mail-collecting point.

I should also like to refer to the question of the aged. I notice in the annual report that mention is made of retirement havens for Post Office pensioners. As far as we are concerned, this is a very important aspect. My request to the hon the Minister is to ensure that more of these havens be established for Post Office pensioners as quickly as possible. It is not always necessary for such a haven to be an item incurring tremendous expenditure, because at many of these homes for the aged, the aged use their own pensions to pay for the services that are furnished. With this one would be rendering people who are retiring a very great service.

I want to make a request in connection with homes for the aged situated near post offices. For many of our aged, particularly debilitated aged, it is very difficult indeed to fetch their pensions once a month from a post office, and what I am asking is whether it is not possible to have someone sent out to make such payments to these people at the homes for the aged in which they are living. It is at great sacrifice, and with great difficulty, that such aged must, at times, fetch their money from post offices. Often they have to stand in long queues. I feel that during their lifetimes those people did a very great deal for our country, and perhaps this is a service we can furnish to them to say thank you for what they have done for our country in the years gone by.

In the annual report I notice that some of our officials are seconded to other governments. There were, for example, 104 officials seconded to Transkei, Bophuthatswana, Venda and Ciskei. This meets with our approval, provided the intention is to do so in order to help these people to train their own people to help themselves and to qualify themselves. It will give them a greater feeling of human dignity and also help them to increase their own sense of value. Granting independence to the homelands will have our support on this side of the House, provided this can help to make them self-sufficient.

I should like to say something about the women working in the Postal Services. At least 54% of the country’s population are women, and there is no field in which one does not find women actively engaged today. Since such great demands are made on women in every sphere—in the labour field, or wherever, extremely great demands are made on them—doing something to make it easier for married women, in particular, to give of their services, certainly has my support. Women do their work with self-assurance and extreme competence. They are also very effective in their work. For that reason it is indeed necessary for them to be appointed to permanent posts, and I am glad that they are now being appointed to such posts. It does at least ensure that women can have an uninterrupted period of service and that their pension benefits are extended. I also think it is a good thing for the Post Office to be able to get uninterrupted service from people so that there is always continuity. This ensures that services are furnished by people who have had experience over the years.

Now that a start has been made with the establishment of one nursery school for the children of these people on post office premises, we would very much like to see more such nursery schools erected so that the mothers can give their undivided attention to their work in the knowledge that they can rest assured about their children being well cared for, well looked after and well tended in the nursery school. I think we owe it to these people, and I should like to ask the hon the Minister whether this service cannot be furnished very quickly on all premises where quite large numbers of women work together.

Mr Chairman, in the course of my speech I should like to associate myself with the hon member for Germiston District in respect of the new mailcollecting service system and the extension of a very practical way of saving on manpower and providing for the safekeeping of mail, for example for people who are on holiday, at a minimum charge to the public of only R1 as deposit for the keys.

†Mr Chairman, I should like to congratulate the hon the Minister and the Postmaster-General for a very comprehensive and very well-presented annual report. I should like to raise two matters relating to the needs of the people in Johannesburg South. Development in what we call the new south of Johannesburg has been and is presently astronomical. Besides streets, street-lighting, roads and schools, two very important issues as far as any new resident is concerned are firstly postal deliveries and secondly a telephone service. These are the two matters 1 should like to discuss and to bring to the attention of the hon the Minister as far as my constituency is concerned.

In order to highlight my plea to the hon the Minister I should like to give some figures in relation to this particular area. The estimated increase in the White population alone of Johannesburg from 1980 to the year 2000 is 112 000. At present there are 498 000 White residents in Johannesburg and, with the aforementioned addition, by the end of the century we will have an estimated 610 000 White people. Present indications are that of this figure of 112 000, 75 000 or 70% will have to be housed south of Johannesburg. The population growth for the whole of Johannesburg amounts to a mere 1,06% of the total but the new south of Johannesburg is experiencing a population growth in excess of 10% per annum. The population increase in this area south of Johannesburg for 1980 to 1983 amounted to 8 000 people or, expressed in housing units, 2 760 new residences. The estimate for the period 1984 to 1990 is 22 000 people or 7 590 new housing units, and for the last 10 years of this century, another 49 000 people or 16 905 housing units. Further indications are that this population increase will gain momentum because the south of Johannesburg offers the only opportunity for expansion in the Johannesburg municipal area.

In 1977 in the new south of Johannesburg the 240 new housing units made up 30% of the total number of new housing units for the whole of Johannesburg. In 1983 the 570 new housing units made up 57% of the total number of new housing units for the whole of Johannesburg. This implies that by 1990, 80% of all new housing units in Johannesburg will be established in the southern areas of that city. Townships in the process of proclamation and empty erven within presently proclaimed townships have the capacity at the moment to house 30 000 people in that area. Pressure will see this figure grow to 75 000 by the year 2000 or, expressed in housing units, about 26 000 housing units. Immediate action and forward planning is of the utmost importance if this population explosion is to be accommodated as far as postal deliveries and telephone services are concerned. The question that one poses in this regard is: Is the Post Office geared to handle such a population explosion in that particular area?

I want to deal specifically with postal deliveries. One notes with great interest the positive steps taken to expedite postal deliveries by the introduction of modem sorting facilities. We note, for example, that an amount of R6,1 million was spent on the mechanization of mail-handling systems, automatic letter sorting machines capable of processing 30 000 articles of mail per hour for Johannesburg, Cape Town and Durban each, and a semi-automatic sorting machine capable of handling 22 000 articles of mail per hour for Cape Town. Furthermore, postal traffic in this country amounts to 1 900 million mail articles per annum. One appreciates all this, but if one talks to the man in the street, one realizes that he is not impressed by this kind of information. All he wants when he moves into a new area, is a telephone and postal deliveries. He does not always understand what the difficulties are in relation to that. Especially in such a fast developing area as the south of Johannesburg, this becomes a serious source of frustration. The collection of mail articles at local post offices, some kilometres away on a poste restante basis, proves most inconvenient. The answer lies in the system of mail-collecting points introduced in 1974. However, I think this system is lagging behind slightly. Only 39 such mail collection points are operating, serving 47 000 resident mail boxes. Forward planning should be the motto and I believe—I have no doubt about it—that the Post Office is most capable of handling this.

I have been negotiating since 1981 on behalf of the New South for postal deliveries. We have done so in a very friendly manner. We have consulted the local residents and, after negotiation, they agreed that we should now plead for the implementation of the system of mail-collecting points. I am very grateful to the hon the Minister for a letter I have just received from his office giving me details of the erection of these postal huts where people can collect their post. I hope that there will be no delay in establishing these collection points.

I would also like to place on record my sincere thanks, on behalf of my voters, for a post office facility which will become available in the Malbato area. In the interim, as far as telephones are concerned, I would like to ask the hon the Minister, particularly because there is such a tremendous shortage of telephones in that area, to consider making more public telephones available.

A telephone as a method of communication remains one of the most important services that the man in the street believes he is entitled to. In all new developing areas we are faced with a high crime rate. People feel cut off from the outside world if they move into a new area and do not have a telephone. This is the essence of our problem in the southern areas of Johannesburg. In this respect again it is gratifying to note the vigour with which telecommunications services that are being handled in South Africa. I see that an amount of R1 120 million is being made available in the budget for capital expenditure.

My time is running out and I would like to ask the hon the Minister to look into the situation as far as the south of Johannesburg is concerned. It appears to me as if the number of telephone installations does not keep pace with the number of applications. If one looks at the figures it is quite surprising to note that in respect of one exchange line alone—I got the figures from the hon the Minister’s office—they cater for 95% of the applications per annum. It may therefore be said that we are not really in trouble, but when we look at the number of applications for telephones, one sees that the figure is increasing steadily while the number of installations is decreasing. All I would like to do in conclusion is to ask the hon the Minister to give very serious consideration in his forward planning to accommodate the situation, which can become very detrimental by the year 2000 if we do not do decent forward planning.

Mr Chairman, I would like to refer to sections of the hon the Minister’s Second Reading speech. I quote:

The hon the Minister then lists certain things, inter alia:

When one looks at the performance of the Post Office since 1979 one sees that the difference between operating expenditure and revenue was R71 million or 9,89% in 1979, R118 million in 1980, R152 million in 1981, R128 million in 1982, which represents a decrease from 15% to 10,53%, and R194 million in 1983. This would be find in any business operation, but it is not good enough when one considers that in 1980, R340 million, 1981, R405 million, 1982, R565 million and in 1983, R855 million was spent on capital expenditure. No business, with the best will in the world, can only have an operating profit on average of roughly 12% and still spend these vast sums on capital requirements without one or two things happening. The first is that at the rate of borrowing that has taken place, the business can either go broke or secondly the rate of expansion which is demanded will cause tariffs to be increased far beyond what we visualize today.

If one looks at staff expenditure as a percentage of revenue one sees that it was 40,68% of revenue in 1983-84. The estimate for 1984-85 will be 41% of estimated revenue. If one looks at staff expenses as a percentage of total operating expenditure, the figure for 1983-84 was 48,73% and the estimate for this year is slightly down to 46%. I respectfully submit, with the best will in the world, that the percentage of staff expenditure is far too high insofar as revenue received is concerned. If the Post Office is to be run on business principles, it will need either to trim its expenditure or maintain it at a more effective level, and increase its revenue drastically.

Should we get rid of staff?

No.

We find ourselves, as a developing country, having to instal sophisticated communications systems that are required by our industrialists and our commercial sector. We are therefore forced to go into the latest technology and at the same time to expand our infrastructure to accommodate the demands for services.

If we continue at our present rate of borrowing, the percentage of self-financing to capital expenditure can only decrease. In a year or two we will find that the borrowing will be 100% and we will have no self-financing at all, which is not a situation that the Franzsen Commission would not like to see.

To offset the situation, the hon the Minister has just raised tariffs. Until such time as our basic infrastructure is complete—this is very important—greater attention should be paid to costs, such as operating costs, wasteful expenditure and productivity. I listened with interest to what the hon the Minister said about productivity. I believe that this should be an ongoing thing and that productivity should be spelt with a capital “P” all along the line. Having raised the tariffs, the hon the Minister tells us that we are still not out of the woods. In his Second Reading speech he said the following:

He finds himself in a catch 22 position as the hon member for Umhlanga said yesterday. The demand for new technology and better communications systems is there and, because we trade and communicate with the developed countries, we are forced to keep pace with them in this regard. If that is so and the public demands a service, I believe the Post Office—unless it is to be subsidized by the central Government—will need to charge an economic price for the service rendered. Before embarking on that economic price, it certainly needs to reduce its operating expenditure and increase its revenue. This is the crunch position. It may also decide to go onto a differential system in so far as services are concerned, similar to Escom. The tariff must be in more direct relation to the cost; in other words we must have a cost related tariff.

You are on my side!

I am staying on your side, but we cannot carry on along the same lines, whether we like it or not. The easiest way is for tariffs to be raised, but the more challenging way is of course to become cost-efficient and profit-orientated.

What I want to say now is with no derogatory intention as far as the officials are concerned. It is very difficult for public servants to be profit-motivated because they live in an environment which is not profit-motivated. Until they become profit-motivated, such items as losses amounting to R10 million will continue to be the order of the day.

I should like to thank the hon the Minister and the telephone cable company for the outing on which they took us some weeks ago. We were afforded the privilege of being taken out on the Cable Restorer and shown a simulated exercise of how cables are lifted from the seabed and repaired. I can tell the hon the Minister that this outing was thoroughly enjoyed by the hon members on this side who attended. However, while we were on this tour, which proved very educational, certain discussions took place and, considering that that ship was built in 1944, that makes it 40 years old. That is quite an age for any ship.

Almost as old as you, Lapa.

Not quite. I respectfully submit in all fairness that, if that ship is out at sea and a heavy storm comes up, I believe that it would only just be able to make headway if it could at all. One must therefore consider replacing this vessel.

Another aspect of this service is that such a cable affords us 360 channels. There is talk of laying an optical-fibre cable which will give us some 4 000 channels. I should like to ask the hon the Minister whether he is making any provision for capital expenditure that is going to come in this regard. We are looking at the possible replacement of a ship which will cost approximately R30 million; and we are looking at a cable the estimated cost of which today is R550 million. If one adds the two together, one gets very close to a figure of R600 million. If this is put into operation in, say, 1988 or 1990, with an escalation of roughly 20%, the figure increases to R700 million. Has the hon the Minister taken any steps to meet this expenditure? I believe that in all honesty he must say “no”. I do not think he has. I want to quote again from the hon the Minister’s Second Reading speech:

Sir, this company is showing a very good profit. In fact, I think the hon the Minister would like to have shares in it. I would respectfully submit to him that contingency plans should therefore be put into operation to offset these expenses which are inevitable in the long term. The hon the Minister has a lot of provincial experience and I do not have to say to him that provincial authorities use such a thing as a capital development program. I believe that this company can afford to do that and I believe that one should start taking cognizance of what the expense are going to be in the near future and should now start developing a capital development fund because the company can afford it and it is something that must be looked at, whether one wants to admit it or not.

Mr Speaker, as could be anticipated, the hon member for South Coast once again raised certain criticisms against the department’s budgeting and, as we have come to expect from them, he offered no concrete solutions to the problems he foresaw. I can only suggest that he should discuss budgeting and how to clear up deficits with the hon member for Umhlanga who gave such brilliant advice in the Transport Services debate. I can only suggest that he keep his abacus handy to avoid little calculating errors as were made in that debate.

Have you read it?

Yes, I have: 365 × 1 000 does not make 3,6 million. If the hon member does not know that yet, I will send him my little abacus so that he can practise on it in his spare time. [Interjections.]

*As has been pointed out by previous hon speakers, the department’s postal services are run at a considerable annual loss. As was rightly pointed out by the hon the Minister, however, this is a labour-intensive service furnished in the national interest and it is essential that it be furnished as effectively as possible. Notwithstanding tremendous technological developments and developments in telecommunications services, the postal services remain in great demand. Although there was something of a decrease in demand as a result of the levelling off in the economy, in the 1982-83 financial year 1 891 million postal items were nevertheless dealt with. With the expected upswing in the economy, the postal traffic will increase considerably, and it is essential for the department to be ready at all times to handle greater volumes. Positive steps are also being taken to improve the processing and despatching of mail matter and to expedite its delivery. At the majority of large post offices intensive investigations have been undertaken in the past financial year and new mail sorting machines have been designed. At rural sorting offices new systems have also been introduced to synchronize with the requirements of the various transit offices.

I should like to focus hon members’ attention on a few of the projects undertaken to establish a better service. Firstly, through the establishment of mail concentration offices it has become possible to introduce a more efficient mail sorting and despatching system and to send much more mail matter directly to a larger number of destinations. Since the introduction, in 1977, of the first mail concentration office receiving post from satellite offices, a further nine such offices have been established. Secondly, in an effort to get mail matter to its destination more quickly, and to eliminate dual handling procedures, a campaign was launched to introduce as many direct air and surface mail despatches as possible between offices in the Republic. Since 1 April 1981 939 additional surface mail despatches and 256 additional air mail despatches were introduced.

An interesting service that can also be mentioned here involves the transportation of bags containing documents of the firm Document Exchange Bureau. This firm accepts, for despatch—for the most part from professional people—documents that cannot be classified as letters in terms of the Post Office Act. In terms of an agreement the department collects these bags at the Docex offices and then transports them to the Docex office of destination for a fee. The service is already in operation between Johannesburg and Pretoria, Durban and Pietermaritzburg, Johannesburg and Durban and Johannesburg and Cape Town.

Thirdly there is the introduction of a rerouting service for mail matter; particular to and from remote areas, to link up with air mail despatches; and the delivery time for such mail matter has been reduced by between 24 hours and 48 hours. As a result of an increase, over several years, in the amount of mail bags that have had to be transported, the cancellation of numerous train services, the lack of adequate space in brake vans and—for various reasons—the despatching of mailbags beyond their points of destination, there have been increasing problems and delays in certain areas in the transportation of mailbags. To partially eliminate the problem, a departmental road transport system was introduced between Pretoria and Johannesburg as of 5 June 1982. A similar service was introduced in October 1982 between Germiston and Johannesburg, and on 1 August 1983 between Durban and Pietermaritzburg. Numerous administration problems and delays were hereby eliminated. Apart from the fact that the transport time was considerably reduced, it is now also possible to transfer mail matter directly to the relevant sections by way of fibre-glass bins instead of mailbags, without having to go through the normal processing channels. As a result of the success achieved with this system, it has been decided to introduce a network of mail transport services in the PWV area and to establish a mailbag transfer office at Comet, near Boksburg, where mail despatches between control offices can be interchanged. This unique step was to have been taken during February 1984.

Careful attention has also been paid to developments in the sphere of mail sorting systems, and in this connection an amount of R6,1 million was spent on further mechanization during the financial year. The hon member for Turffontein referred to the systems already put into operation.

I should like to conclude by referring to the extremely important service furnished by the department in regard to mail to and from the operational area. Each of us who have done military service will know how much truth there is in the fact that in the bush mail is more important than food. At all the large urban and rural post offices special letterboxes have been introduced for post to and from the operational area. This enables the department to give special attention to this mail. Since July 1982 all mail matter, including parcels, is transported twice a week between Pretoria and the operational area, with approximately 10 000 kg of mail being transported on each trip. The SA Defence Force is kind enough to bear the costs involved.

A new field post office was recently opened at the military base at Oshakati as part of 11 Field Post Unit’s campaign to make the field post service even more streamlined. As a result, troops can now be given all the post office services at the base itself and no longer need to take special leave to visit the civilian post office. This office is operated as an extension of the civilian post office in Oshakati, which already controls six sub-offices in the remote areas of Ovamboland. The praiseworthy attitude of the postmaster at Oshakati to the extra work that this entails is characteristic of the spirit in which post is handled in the operational area by everyone concerned. In the postmaster’s own words: “They are prepared to offer their lives. It is the least we can do to see that they have the best possible service.” For the sake of interest, it can be mentioned that when this service was taken over by the Post Office staff in January 1976, they came across 14 000 unsorted letters, 700 parcels and 139 undelivered telegrams. Within 13 weeks this system was completely reorganized, and at present it works so effectively that the majority of the average of 65 000 items emanating from the Republic each week are, as a rule, delivered in the operational area in less than four days. A similar service has now also been introduced in Mpatcha, where a Katimo Mulilo sub-office has been put into operation at the base. The dedication and zeal with which that service is furnished to the Defence Force men on the border deserves the highest praise, and we merely wish to request that all possible steps be taken to help these staff members in their efforts to decrease the delivery time of the mail in the operational area even further.

Mr Chairman, I shall just reply briefly to a few aspects that have been raised. I see that there have been seven speakers, so if I have to reply to all the questions that have been raised, I may run out or time.

In the first place, I want to congratulate the hon member for Turffontein very sincerely on his birthday today. Unfortunately, the hon member is not here at the moment.

†The hon member for Johannesburg North raised a number of points. I will at a later stage let him have replies to some of the points he raised. In regard to the question about Soweto, we were going to install 20 000 to 30 000 telephones in Soweto in the present financial year, but the three exchanges commissioned have taken somewhat longer to complete, They also have to go through the trunk exchange at New Doornfontein, which is the first of its type in the world. The suppliers have experienced unexpected problems, but after the completion of the buildings we hope to provide this service before the end of May this year. I hope the hon member will not blame me if it should happen a month or two later. We are at present experiencing problems, not technical problems but I think it is just that the time has caught up with these people.

We do not have the apparatus to monitor a differentiated cost of overseas calls. However, we are considering the possibility of getting new electronic equipment that could be installed in future to enable us to do this monitoring, but we have not yet taken a decision on this differentiation. We will consider it when it becomes possible to obtain the necessary equipment. It is no good dealing with the whole matter hypothetically at this early stage. It is a question of the availability of electronic equipment. We do already experience an overload over the Christmas season and if we do grant cheaper rates during that period it could well happen that our whole system becomes bogged down as a result. As the hon member should know there are certain hours of the day—from 18h00 to 21h00, and from then until 07h00—when half rates and one-third rates do apply. I believe people can make use of these cheaper rates in the same way. To grant this concession only during the Christmas season, I believe, can cause hulge problems in that particular area.

*The hon member for Germiston District mentioned a few interesting matters here. We shall thoroughly investigate her request that additional mail-collecting points be made available. We are very anxious to have our mail delivery function as smoothly as possible. However, we must bear in mind that the problem with mail-collecting points is that we employ a smaller staff. Of course, we are not anxious to lose staff. However, as the number of staff declines at certain places, we have to reorganize, of course. But we shall very definitely bear in mind the proposal of the hon member for Germiston District with regard to the areas she referred to. I thank her sincerely for the thanks she expressed with regard to the areas in her constituency which already have mail-collecting points. The payment of pensions to the elderly in old-age homes is not such an easy matter, of course. Not all the pensioners in a specific old-age home receive pensions. Nor do we have enough staff available to serve all the old-age homes. However, what we advise people to do, if they have accounts with the Post Office Savings Bank, a commercial bank or a building society, is to arrange for their pensions to be paid into their accounts. Then there is no need for them to stand in queues at all. Nor do they have to walk anywhere. Their pensions are paid directly into their accounts.

With regard to the secondment of staff to the independent states, I just want to say that this procedure is already being used in order to train postal staff in the independent states. At the moment, these people actually form a very important part of the services offered by the independent states. On a number of occasions, when we have considered recalling an official to the Republic, we have been requested by the authorities in those states to allow that official to stay on. We do this, of course, with the consent of the official concerned. So it is actually a very friendly service that we offer them in this respect. The idea is, of course, that they should train the staff in the independent states so that they can eventually function independently. Transkei already has its own Postmaster-General, for example. However, a few of our technical staff are still employed there. In Ciskei, on the other hand, the Postmaster-General is one of our own people. However, he is engaged in training senior people, who will eventually take over all the duties in that state.

The hon member for Rosettenville put a number of questions to me. The most important one, perhaps—and I should like to reply to it now—concerned the question of a new post office for Rosettenville. This is a matter for which the hon member has been campaigning for so many years. The whole question dates back to 1952. A new State building is being planned for Rosettenville. It is expected to be completed by the end of 1986. So it is actually just around the corner. If the hon member makes sure that Rosettenville stays National, therefore, and that all goes well there, his voters may get a new post office in 1986, which could also serve as a pleasant meeting-place for them. However, we cannot make a hall available to them there. However, the hon member will just have to take care of matters there. Meanwhile we shall give attention to the planning of the post office.

The hon member for Rosettenville mentioned quite a number of other matters, including the question of mail boxes. The new post office will have an adequate number of mail boxes of course. I thank the hon member sincerely for his kind words about the generosity shown by Post Office officials in working for charity. They do this voluntarily, of course. They have raised funds for a large number of charitable organizations. Not the least of these was the Laingsburg flood disaster fund, of course. What is also remarkable, perhaps, is the fact that the Postmaster-General handed over a large amount of money recently for Bible distribution. This was money which had been voluntarily collected by Post Office employees. We owe them a debt of gratitude for this.

I shall reply to the hon member for Rosettenville in writing with regard to the other matters he raised, especially with regard to the question of telephone services, as well as the question of the daily handling of postal items, of course. Unfortunately, my time is not unlimited. However, I did want to tell the hon member about the proposed new post office for Rosettenville so as to put him in a good mood for the rest of the day. I know he has been campaigning for this post office for a very long time.

†The hon member for South Coast suggested some sort of capital development fund to provide for a new cable ship. We are looking into this matter at present although I cannot say that that will be the solution. In actual fact, 60% of the cable company is already owned by the Post Office. I am sure that they cannot make R600 million and, with the opposition I received to my budget from the hon member for Hillbrow, I do not know whether I would be able to find R600 million in the next 600 years. However, that does not mean that we cannot obtain the services of a cable ship. Negotiations are under way at the moment and there is the possibility of considering another ship. We may be able to overcome this capital problem but I think the hon member is quite correct. We must look at this matter very carefully in the near future.

I found the hon member’s suggestion that tariffs be made more cost-oriented very interesting. That is what we are aiming at but one thing that hon members must remember is the fact that although the Post Office is run on business principles it is not supposed to be a profit-making organization. Any profit that is made is ploughed back into capital expenditure, and the idea is to improve the position until par is reached. However, I do not think that we will achieve this goal for some years yet. We have first of all to try to work off the backlog in telephone installations but once saturation point has been reached in this regard I can see that 50:50 income capital rates being achieved and our becoming more cost-oriented.

May I please ask a question? Can the hon the Minister give us any idea when the stage will be reached when the infrastructure will be adequate to meet these needs?

The difficulty in this regard is to assess the market among the non-White population. We have planned it and it is improving and we have planned the cables for 10 years ahead. However, I do not think that we will reach infrastructure saturation point within 10 years. We are doing our best and we are putting in as much as we can at this stage. The 10 year period I have mentioned is very much of a guess but I am sure it will not be before that.

I shall try to reply in writing to the other questions raised by the hon member. He asked a number of questions but I do not wish to take the time of hon members wishing to speak after me because I shall have to reply to a number of points raised by them as well. The one point that the hon member mentioned to which I can reply is in regard to the cable. We are looking into this whole question and we are considering optical fibre. The Postmaster General and I will shortly be paying a visit to America where this fibre optic cable is being installed in order to ascertain whether that type of cable will be suitable for our needs. If it is, it will solve a number of problems. However, we do not want to have more problems now than we can solve. One of these cables is now being laid across the Atlantic from America to England and we shall see how it operates.

*The hon member for Turffontein was not here a moment ago. We would like to congratulate him on his birthday. He is a young man with a future and I am sure he will go on looking after his constituency. I shall reply in writing to several of his questions. I want to thank him sincerely for his kind words about the Post Office. Like him, we are worried about the population explosion in certain areas, and we try to keep pace with it by obtaining information in advance. I am sure the hon member is glad about the collecting points we have already made available, but we shall also go into the question of telephones in the area which he mentioned.

The hon member for Germiston District spoke about the women employed by the Post Office. We think very highly of the women in our service. I do not want to go so far as to say that we are fond of all our staff, because that could be misinterpreted! They form a valuable part of our staff and we shall do our best to provide for additional nursery schools. We have conducted surveys to find out where these nursery schools are needed. The area which the hon member mentioned will now fall in a new region, and a survey could perhaps be done in that region as well.

I shall reply to the hon member for East London City when I have my next turn to speak.

Mr Chairman, I should like to take the opportunity to raise a number of brief unrelated items. First of all I refer to section 17(5) of the Post Office Services Act, 1974, which provides for discrimination on the basis of sex in the service of the Post Office. It states as follows:

I raised this matter in 1981 and I put it to the hon the Minister then—I put it to him again—that this is an archaic provision. It is high time that it was deleted from the Statute Book. Why exactly should a woman face automatic dismissal, so-called voluntary retirement, just because she gets married? It does not happen to a man, why should it happen to a woman? I think it is quite wrong that women employees should have this sword of Damocles hanging over their heads by being compelled to terminate their jobs simply because they get married. It is certainly not conducive to full and productive use of labour in the Post Office while it is struggling to obtain suitably trained manpower in the face of competition. I am sure the hon the Minister cannot justify the existence of this provision in 1984.

It will not be enough for the hon the Minister to say that most of the 646 women who had their employment terminated in terms of this section during the period 1 April 1982 to 31 March 1983 were in fact retained with ministerial approval. The fact is that 37 of those women during that period were not retained. Their services were terminated in terms of this section, and it is the principle of discrimination on the basis of sex that is objectionable. It is not enough for the hon the Minister to say that he and the Board are lenient in the application of the section, they indeed are and figures testify to that and it is commendable that they are, but the point is that marriage as such should not be seen to be a penalty or in any way a reason for changing the work status of an officer of the Post Office who happens to be female. It does not matter how lenient the Board or the Minister might be in exercising his discretion, no person should face such potential penalties.

When I raised this matter in 1981, the then hon Minister in his reply to me said the following (Hansard, 1981(2), col 2811):

I then thanked the hon the Minister, as I took that to be an undertaking on the part of the Government to clear up this anachronism. I regret that it seems as though it still resides on our Statute Book. I would again appeal for its deletion forthwith.

The second matter I should like to raise is the question of Beitel. I should like to say that this is an exciting development. I regard it as a positive development and I congratulate the department for being in step with the times in this regard. It is encouraging that there are as many as 580 users at this early stage. However, there is one matter I should like to raise with the hon the Minister. I personally made an inquiry as to becoming a subscriber to the Beltel system, and if some of the suggestions of the hon member for Bezuidenhout are taken up, it will make it that much more attractive and I am sure many more people will be interested. However, I was disturbed to be advised not to become a subscriber because there was going to be a conversion from the Prestel system to the Cept system. I thought it very strange as the hon the Minister made no reference to this in his Budget Speech or in his reply earlier this afternoon. I believe from the middle of this year there is going to be this huge conversion and that anything spent on becoming a subscriber or investing in a modem at this stage or investing in converting one’s Apple computer at this stage will become fruitless. Perhaps the hon the Minister can clear this up because it seems to have wide-ranging implications for those individuals who have invested their money. It is fruitless expenditure that is going to hit those subscribers. Perhaps it will not hit the Post Office very much, but it will certainly affect those subscribers, and I think the hon the Minister owes the public some explanation and some justification of this change.

The third matter is the issue of commemorative stamps. In 1982 the hon the Minister outlined the three principles according to which these stamps would be issued in the future. Firstly, that date-bound stamps were to be phased out, except for instances of special significance; secondly, that commemorative stamps should positively reflect the image of South Africa; and thirdly, that their issues should be reduced to no more than five per annum. It is my belief that this is a restrictive policy, and we argued it at the time, which does not meet the requirement of a sound and balanced attitude to the issue of such stamps. Other countries go in for this kind of thing and we also did for many years. It is my view that a commemorative stamp is a method of granting recognition, in particular in a plural society such as South Africa, to the rich cultural and language diversity which we have in our community, and of recognizing historical events of importance that can be a source of broad communal pride, as well as a way to advertise South Africa in a positive way to the world at large. I am, therefore, disappointed that the issue of these stamps has declined from six and seven in 1980-81 to only three categories in 1982-83 and no date-bound commemorative stamps in 1983-84, according to an answer yesterday to a question I put to the Question Paper. I think it will be very sad if the positive, happy tradition of issuing date-bound commemorative stamps were to be killed off. The maximum of five does not seem to have been utilized. I would therefore appeal to the hon the Minister and the department to re-examine that 1982 policy and to consider re-introducing the concept under revised guidelines, particularly with the advice of a broadly-based multi-cultural advisory committee which could advise the department on a balanced allocation of such stamps from year to year. I do not think one should have an arbitrary limit because a particular year may be a good commemorative year and be followed by a year when there are not many events that lend themselves to recognition. I think that a broad-based advisory committee and a non-restrictive policy would be a positive thing.

In respect of local matters, I take the opportunity to thank the department for their recent efforts to update postal and telephone services in my own constituency. It was very pleasing to note in terms of the answer to Question No 348 that only 55 applications in my constituency for a telephone service were outstanding as at 20 February and that this backlog would be eliminated shortly. I also welcome the fact that the number of post boxes at the Constantia Commercial centre will be increased during the next few days from 250 to 400. This is a commendable improvement over the situation of some years ago and I am grateful that my pleas have been recognized in this regard. On behalf of my constituents I express our gratitude.

I would also like to take the opportunity— this is an opportunity to be positive on a number of points—to welcome the installation of emergency telephones on major highways. I understand from Press reports that the N2 and N9 out of Cape Town and certain other roads are going to have these emergency telephones installed. This is another matter I raised and pleaded for in a previous debate and I am delighted to see that this is now coming to pass. I am going to make it a practice to ask for things because they seem to be attended to fairly speedily. I welcome this. While I am on this track, I would like to note the fact that the hon the Minister says that he intends to extend the availability of motor telephones to other urban centres outside the Reef urban complex. I welcome this and I would like to say that Cape Town will volunteer to be the next urban centre to be tested in this way. I am sure it will be a very popular service. Motor telephones are telephones without cords and I therefore want to make another plea for cordless telephones to be introduced. In certain respects the Post Office is keeping up to date with world trends. Cordless telephones are a world trend. Let us have them in South Africa and let us not be behind the times in this respect. They will be tremendously popular if they are introduced in this country.

Finally, I would like to make another very local plea. Will the hon the Minister and his department please consider either opening a new post office or shifting the existing Bergvliet or Diep River post office to the Meadowridge Park and Shop centre? That is where the commercial traffic is going. There has been a change since the present two post offices were established, and it is high time that the department followed that commercial trend and placed one of those post offices where it will be far better utilized and supported.

Mr Chairman, there is no doubt about the fact that electronics, whether in the form of computers, telecommunications or electronic systems, is already having a considerable impact on our lives. Space travel and satellites have become part of our everyday vocabulary. Learning how a computer works has become just as important to our children as learning to read or write.

The fact is that the Post Office has not escaped this electronic revolution. We have all become increasingly dependent on modern electronic equipment. When we bear in mind that effective military preparedness and warfare have also become more dependent on this system, then it is clear that the maintenance of these systems is of the utmost importance.

This brings us to the duty of the Post Office to provide enough trained technical staff in good time to ensure that all these systems can be maintained. In order to evaluate properly the challenge which the training of technical staff presents to the Post Office, it will be necessary to evaluate it against a broad background.

The first aspect I wish to mention is the rapid change in the technological sphere. The hon the Minister stated during the debate on the previous Post Office budget that the changes brought about by electronics had been as drastic as those of the industrial revolution and that they involved a rapid transition from an industrial society based on energy to a computer society based on information. The hon the Minister also said:

The Postmaster General, Mr Bester, put the matter as follows in his preface to his latest annual report:

The second aspect which I want to mention briefly is the composition of the economically active population of South Africa. In 1951, the Whites constitued 21,4% of that population, as against an estimated 14,4% in the year 2000. In 1951, the Coloureds constituted 8,8% of the population, and this figure will increase to 9,5% in the year 2010. Asians will increase from 2,1% to 2,8%, and Blacks from 67,7% to 73,3%. So the National Manpower Commission is correct in saying:

A final aspect that I wish to refer to in general terms is the general backlog which exists in the RSA with regard to career-orientated training. The situations in the RSA and Taiwan are not entirely comparable, but a comparison between the technical and career-orientated training available in these two countries does reveal the backlog which exists in the RSA with regard to career-orientated training. The annual technically-orientated career training per million inhabitants of these two countries shows that if one compares career-orientated Std 10s, NTC3 and South African technical Std 10s, the number of persons, expressed per million of our total population, is 312 to 360. In respect of our Whites it is 1 215 compared with 2 430 in respect of Taiwan. When we look at technikon diplomas and certificates, we find once again that the number is 78 per million members of the total population, as against 44 in the case of the Whites and a figure of 876 in the case of Taiwan. Against the background of, firstly, the rapid change in the technological sphere; secondly, the composition of the economically active population of the RSA; and, thirdly, the general backlog which exists in the RSA with regard to career-orientated training, a more meaningful evaluation could be made of what the Post Office has achieved in this connection.

In order to meet the need of the Post Office for properly trained technical manpower, the department itself undertakes the training of its technicians, telcom electricians and telcom mechanics. On 31 December 1983, the Post Office had more than 6 400 pupil technicians and telcom trainees in training, of whom 704 were Coloureds, 389 were Asians and 756 were Blacks.

The hon member for Germiston District has already referred to the ladies, but I think we men should also refer to them, because it is important to see that as far as the entry of women to the technical divisions of the Post Office is concerned, there are 43 female pupil technicians at the moment, two of whom are Coloureds, and that there are 74 female pupil telcom electricians, two of whom are Coloureds.

Apart from formal courses offered at technikons and technical colleges, intensive training courses are offered by departmental training centres. In addition to the regional training centres at Milnerton, Port Elizabeth, Silverton, Booysens, Bloemfontein and Durban, the department operates the following four Post Office colleges: Olifantsfontein, which has a capacity of 520 Whites at a time; Belhar, with 300 Coloureds at a time; Soshanguve, with 400 Blacks at a time; and Durban, which has a capacity of 300 Asians at a time.

We on this side of the House are convinced that the Post Office has not only accepted the challenges presented by the training of technical staff, but will also be successful in dealing with them. Furthermore, we are convinced that they will be able to keep pace with developments in a rapidly changing technological world in future as well. We thank all the technical men and women, from Newcastle to the Cape and from the Cape to Komatipoort, for the excellent work which is done behind the scenes and for the contribution which they make in adjusting to these technological changes so that our country may move into the future in prosperity, safety and peace.

Mr Chairman, I want to thank the hon the Minister for having said that he would listen to all complaints that people brought to him about crowding-out. It is appreciated. I hope and trust that all who have experienced that problem will approach him. I want to tell the hon the Minister that I shall be phoning him next week and making an appointment to speak to him about a certain matter relating to this. I do not want to mention the names of the people concerned across the floor of the House, and that is why I want to speak to him in his office. Then he will see the seriousness of the problem in my constituency, a problem that is going to become tremendously serious in future. It is going to become so serious that I think it is going to prove catastrophic to White urban areas.

I received a letter from the Postmaster-General that made me very happy. It relates to the proposed new post office for Heidelberg. Many years ago now my predecessor in the constituency broached that subject, although not in Parliament. He did so in his capacity as MP. I followed this up, and want to say that there were problems. Those problems were not the fault of the State or the Post Office. A dispute about the premises arose between the province of Transvaal and the central Government. It related to land that belonged to a school, the Public School, in Heidelberg, Transvaal. We subsequently managed to obtain a new building for that school on new premises. The school was then moved to a better spot, from the school’s point of view, a spot situated a short distance from the central business area. Then a portion of the land was taken by the province for its own purposes. Another portion was allocated to the Post Office. As the hon the Minister knows, the Heidelberg post office is housed in a building that does not belong to the Post Office. It belongs to the Department of Mines, or to a private body. They do not want to relinquish the building. Now, however, there is a place available which would be very suitable for a post office. We have heard that if everything goes according to plan, tenders will quite probably be called for in June, and if a tender is accepted, building work will quite probably commence in October. We hope and trust that the tenders submitted will be good ones. The Heidelbergers would be very glad about that. For years now there has been a need for a post office. I want to make it very clear that it is not the Post Office’s fault that such a situation arose. It happened because of conditions beyond its control. That is sometimes the problem when so many departments have to decide about a certain matter.

I also want to lodge a plea for the establishment of a post office at Sharon Park, a new extension in my constituency. Each day new houses are completed. Because many of them are maisonettes, at times a whole string of these houses is completed at once. There is a dire need there for a post office. People have made representations to me in this connection. I have told them that I would make use of the Committee Stage of the Post Office Appropriation to ask for one. Perhaps we could start by establishing a post office in a business complex in Sharon Park. One normally does not start big. One begins on a small scale, as we did at Minnebron at the time. There we started with a self-service post office, and today it has expanded to such an extent that there are very great changes in the offering now. I am very grateful for that fact.

What is also at issue here is the post office at Daggafontein. This is a very old building. Nor does it belong to the State. It is rented. I do want to ask—I have had representations in this connection—whether the interior of the building could not possibly be modernized slightly.

I also want to refer to Schapensrust. Several years ago vandals set the post office alight. I have never heard of their being caught. The post office and its contents burned down. Those premises are not State property either. They belong to private bodies. Even if the place were restored to its original state, it would no longer be a suitable location owing to the development that have taken place in the vicinity of Salliesmyn. That is why I asked last year, and am now doing so again, whether it is not possible to investigate the possibility of restoring that post office again, but doing so at some other spot, ie at Salliesmyn? There is a great concentration of people there. Since the mine was closed at the time, all the houses there have been occupied, and more houses are being built. The uranium recovery plant is also situated close by. The area is becoming a densely populated one. Those people urgently need a post office.

Last year I asked for call-boxes to be erected outside the post office at Nigel. That has been done, and I want to say thank you for it. Last year I mentioned that the call boxes in the building gave rise to a disgusting state of affairs because certain people did not use the call-boxes in the post office for the purpose for which they were erected. That was unfortunately the case. Now, however, the call-boxes have been erected outside. [Interjections.] The worst that can now happen is that people can rain wet. On the other hand, these days there is unfortunately so little rain that that does not pose any immediate problem. What I do also want to point out, however, is that there are far too few coin-boxes in Nigel. The coin boxes that we do have there, are overcrowded, and it would be quite interesting to find out how much money each of those coin-boxes brings in. I want to suggest that more of those coinboxes be established near the chain stores and the business centre, because at those spots there is a great need for them. Some of the business undertakings are close to bus stops, and the lack of coin-box facilities creates many problems. If my request were to be complied with, the community there would undoubtedly appreciate the fact.

I again want to express my thanks and appreciation for the increase in salaries that the Post Office staff obtained. As I said yesterday, these people work very hard for the State and therefore deserve the increase.

Mr Chairman, on a previous occasion, when the Post Office Appropriation was being discussed, the hon the Minister of Post and Telecommunications made it clear that we should keep the Post Office out of the political arena. I should like to comply with that request, but I find myself compelled to reply to the hon the member for Nigel and others in the CP ranks. It seems as if hon members of the CP are neither sensitive to, nor have an understanding of, requests of this nature. The same request has frequently been made in this House, but time and again they have broached matters which they have wanted to exploit for party-political gain. Perhaps they are simply being wilful and are grasping at any straw that looks as if it might save their political boat, without a policy to steer by, from going under. [Interjections.]

It is remarkable to see how hon members of that party employ double standards in their arguments. In this House those hon members agree with the fact that the Post Office is a business undertaking and that on that basis it should be run according to the principles of a business undertaking. Now the hon member for Nigel comes along, however—it would almost seem to me as if he is the CP’s shadow Minister of Posts and Telecommunications—and both he and the hon member for Sunnyside complain about people of colour crowding out the Whites in post offices. There are, of course, such instances. We do not in any way want to deny that. [Interjections.] The hon member for Nigel did not, however, go and discuss this problem personally with the hon Minister, but comes and rakes it up here with the object of bringing it to the attention of the world at large. It is for this reason that I briefly want to go into the matter, because stories about this are being spread in the Northern Transvaal to mislead the country’s voters. [Interjections.]

Only people who think like hon members of the CP can argue as inconsistently as they do. If one acknowledges that the Post Office is an ordinary business undertaking, one surely cannot use arguments such as those used by hon members of the CP about the presence of people of colour in post offices. In each and every post office—which is an ordinary business undertaking—they want signs indicating where Whites and non-Whites should be served. That is what they are demanding in the Northern Transvaal. If one wants to have this kind of thing in post offices, one should be consistent and have them in each and every business undertaking. Then we must also have signs in chain stores, in cafés, in bakeries, in clothing shops, etc. What is now actually the difference, in principle, between purchasing a postage stamp at a post office counter and purchasing any other consumer item at any other shop? There is no essential difference whatsoever. In my constituency there are CP supporters who also have their own shops. I can give hon members the assurance, however, that those CP supporters serve all their clients even without such signs in their shops. They allow everyone to buy from then, and of course the money comes streaming in; also of course—in fact, particularly—the money from people of colour. The CP supporters in my constituency are asking why we should now be trying to get rid of the business of people of colour. They do not want it, because it is going to harm their business undertakings. So the money is all very well, but the colour is wrong. [Interjections.] Mr Chairman, surely those hon CP members must at least be consistent. They must get away from their double standards and their racial prejudice [Interjections.]

I now want to turn to the hon the Minister and the department and thank them on this occasion for the outstanding work they are doing, not only in the cities, but also in the rural areas, when it comes to the provision of telephone services. There are many places in the rural areas where people still make use of manual exchanges. There are still approximately 950 manual exchanges in existence in the Republic, and we know that it is the department’s endeavour to have those exchanges replaced by automatic exchanges as soon as the available resources permit. We also realize that there are some places where manual exchanges cannot be replaced by automatic exchanges within the foreseeable future. The reasons for this are, amongst other things, the distances involved, a shortage of capital, or the fact that the number of inhabitants does not justify it. These are just a few examples of the things that make it difficult to convert certain manual exchanges to automatic ones. We do, in any case, greatly appreciate the fact that in the financial year 1984-85 the intention is to provide approximately 10 690 additional indicators at 86 manual exchanges. This will certainly greatly alleviate the position at overloaded manual exhanges which, as a consequence of the overloading, cannot handle the great volume of calls. During the present financial year it is expected that 40 manual exchanges will be replaced by automatic exchanges. There will also be 13 smaller manual exchanges that will be closing down, with the relevant telephone services transferred to automatic exchanges in the vicinity.

This will result in approximately 21 800 telephone services, which were linked to manual exchanges, being converted to automatic exchanges. When this happens, 93,65% of the Republic’s total number of telephone points will have an automatic service.

The capacity of the automatic exchange system will then be 2 151 172 lines. In a country like South Africa, with its vast distances and many remote areas, the department’s achievement in this field is one of great distinction. Last year the manual exchange in Warmbaths, which is situated in my constituency, was replaced by an automatic exchange. On this occasion I should like to thank the hon the Minister and the department for the fact that they could react so positively to our representations. This means a great deal to that busy town, which also receives many tourists, to have an automatic telephone exchange. The change-over from a manual exhange to an automatic exchange in Warmbaths went virtually without a hitch, and for that fact the department deserves our utmost praise. I should hereby also like to convey the thanks of our voters to the hon the Minister and his department.

The hon the Minister and the department are aware of the problems we are experiencing at the Marble Hall manual exchange. This is a busy exchange that has to serve an equally busy community. According to the department, its planning makes provision for ordering the equipment for the automation of that exchange, delivery to be taken during the 1984-85 financial year. If everything goes according to plan, the automatic exchange for Marble Hall ought to be ready for service during the first half of 1986. I want to thank the hon the Minister for that, but ask him not to deviate from this planning schedule. An automatic exchange at Marble Hall is an urgent necessity.

In conclusion I also want to refer to Naboomspruit. Naboomspruit’s equipment for an automatic exchange is being ordered for delivery during the 1985-86 financial year, at least according to the planning schedule. I want to express my thanks for the fact that Crecy and Palala are to be included in this automation of Naboompsruit’s manual exchange, with these subscribers also being provided with the SOR-type service. I have been informed, however, that no indication can as yet be given about when the automatic exchange of Naboomspruit will be ready for use. I also want to ask the hon the Minister whether it is not possible to expedite the installation of that automatic exchange. Regional development is extremely important in our constituency. Good telephone links also improve the development possibilities, and it would sincerely be appreciated if the hon the Minister could comply with this request.

Mr Chairman, I have followed the arguments of the hon member for Potgietersrus quite closely. He urged the CP to be consistent in their arguments regarding the use by Whites and non-Whites of telephones and post offices. Of course, I agree completely with his argument but I should like to suggest that he should also try to be more consistent in his arguments as well in relation to the hon the Minister of Transport Affairs and the various “whites only” signs on the Cape Town railway station and elsewhere. The hon member must also be consistent in this regard.

Like so many speakers this afternoon, I should like to refer to a number of various issues the first of which is the question of the staff situation in the Post Office. In the latest report of the Postmaster-General he indicated that the Post Office was still being handicapped by a lack of staff. This was in March of last year. Of course, in his Budget Speech this year, the hon the Minister indicated that circumstances had improved somewhat, for which we are all very grateful. However, one finds this phenomenon to be a disturbing feature in the reports of all departments. All the reports that I have had on my desk this year have indicated a shortage of staff and the words “short-staffed” and the expression “position not suitably filled” are features of many of these reports. We are all hoping, of course, for an improvement in our economic climate in the near future. When that takes place, what is going to happen in regard to the staff position of the various departments? The present satisfactory position is due no doubt to the downturn in the economic climate and perhaps the better conditions of service that are now offered. However, once we experience an upturn, we are all going to start competing for staff. The public sector competes with the private sector and, to a large extent, as far as White staff are concerned, we all end up fishing in the same pool. This will result in increasingly higher salaries and fringe benefits being offered as people compete with another to obtain the vital staff they need to run their businesses. Looking at the staff position in the Public Service at the moment and having regard to the salaries paid to many senior employees of the Post Office, I feel that when fringe benefits are added the conditions of service in the public sector are very competitive, and that is how it should be. However, once the next upturn comes the whole inflationary spiral will begin again. Of course one of the answers to this is to start fishing in another pool for our staff and that involves looking towards other sections of our population, for example the Blacks, the Coloureds and the Indians. The private sector has been doing this to a large extent. One only has to go into banks, building societies, warehouses and any type of business undertaking. When one looks at the annual report of the Post Office, one sees that the Post Office is obviously doing this as well because there are increasing numbers of Coloured, Indian and Black staff coming into various areas of the Post Office.

One may ask to what extent this is a deliberate policy which the Post Office has or to what extent they do this because of the force of circumstances. Here again some interesting facts appear from the annual report. On page 41 of the annual report the authorized staff complement of the department is given. One notices that, for example, there are 4 367 authorized administrative posts for Whites while those for Coloureds, Indians and Blacks amount to 232. One can go through all the different categories of staff. There are, for example, 179 authorized professional posts for Whites and of course no authorized professional posts for Coloureds, Indians or Blacks. On the technical side one finds that Whites have 6 600 authorized posts and Coloureds, Indians and Blacks only 765.

The first question I want to ask the hon the Minister in this regard is why the authorized posts are listed on a basis of race. Why should an authorized post be for a White, a Coloured, an Indian or a Black? Surely, the criteria in running a business—presumably that is what the Post Office is trying to do— should be whether a man can do the job or not.

The next point which comes out of the report is the large difference between authorized posts and the actual staff employed. We see that at the end of March 1983 the actual staff were 88 000 while at the end of March 1984 the actual staff were 91 000, but the authorized posts were some 65 000. Therefore there is a difference of 23 000 employees who are presumably in unauthorized posts. One must immediately ask who these extra staff are. If one goes back to previous years, one finds that they have always been there and therefore they obviously are necessary in the Post Office, but why are they not authorized staff?

If one delves further into the figures, one notes that the actual Whites employed in the Post Office number 49 000, rounded off, while the authorized posts also number 49 000, rounded off. So, there are very few unauthorized White employees in the Post Office. This discrepancy must then crop up in the Coloured, Indian and Black sectors because there we see that the actual posts number 38 000. In authorized posts there are 17 000 staff members and there are presumably 21 000 staff members in unauthorized posts. I would be interested to know from the hon the Minister what the difference is between an authorized and an unauthorized post. Is there some sort of difference in so far as conditions are concerned? Perhaps he can allay my worst fears that there is some form of discrimination involved here.

One should also look at the salaries, particulars of which are also shown in the report. The median range of salaries for White postmen varies from R7 000 to R8 000 while the median range for Coloured, Indian and Black postmen varies from R0 to R4 000. In the case of telecom operators much the same applies. The hon the Minister may argue that this is so because they are only coming into the system and they do not have the same experience. That may be the case, but I still believe that the Post Office should make a concerted effort to recruit and train Black staff and a concerted effort should be made to remove discrimination from the work place.

My time is very short and I have a number of further items with which I should like to deal. Firstly I should like to refer very briefly to the new Beitel. A lot has been said in praise of it, and I would like to suggest one further use the hon the Minister can investigate. He should speak to his colleague, the Minister of Education and Training, because the new Beltel system has immense possibilities as an educational tool. I see no reason why this could not one day be installed in all schools. We all know that there is a shortage of teachers. With the Beltel system we could have a vast range of different teaching programmes available. If these could be installed in classrooms around the country, especially in Black schools, it would lead to a vast improvement in our educational system.

The last thing I would like to mention in the minute or so I have left, is the question of party lines. This is a hardy perennial in most other debates, but I have not heard it mentioned in the debate so far, presumably because most hon members do not have party lines any more. However, the hon member for Albany tells me that he has had the same party telephone on his farm for the last 42 years and that he hopes he will see some change in the party-line system before he is buried one day. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, the activities of this department have now been placed under the magnifying glass by all sides and there has been a great deal of comment about various matters. On this occasion I should like to exchange a few ideas about the telephone system.

Communication is a basic service in any modern society. I think that everyone who has taken part in this debate will take cognizance with appreciation of the valuable service provided by the department. The hon the Minister and the department deserve the thanks and appreciation of everyone who utilizes this service. Once again I wish to emphasize the importance of the telephone service. When one looks at the report of the Postmaster-General and to the financial statements of the department, one finds that the telephone service is in fact the backbone of the Post Office. The estimated revenue for the 1984-85 financial year is R1 877 209 000, whereas the total expected revenue of the Post Office is R2 471 096 000. The role played by the telephone system in the activities of this department is evident from these figures.

According to the available figures, particularly those mentioned by the hon the Minister, the backlog in the supply of services has been increased over the past number of years. I do not say this to criticize. It is not my intention to comment unfairly on this matter, because I am aware that the department is trying to meet the growing need as far as possible. However, I wish to ask the hon the Minister today whether a special effort could not be made to reduce this growing backlog. The statement has already been made that just as we shall always have the poor with us there will always be a shortage of telephones, and complaints about them. I do not believe that the hon the Minister and his department adopt that approach, but rather that they are prepared to do everything to accept that challenge.

The hon the Minister indicated that the waiting list would consist of 240 000 on 31 March 1984. I just want to point out that on 31 March 1981 the waiting list was 141 166. Therefore there has been an increase of 98 834 during that period. Over the past financial year the backlog has grown by 14 600. One understands the problems experienced by the department in keeping abre st of the increasing demand for telephone services. The hon the Minister explained what problems were being experienced and this is understandable. However, if exceptional circumstances occur then I think that exceptional measures are required. This is not a service that does not pay and any good businessman will make an effort to expand those sectors of his business that are remunerative. Accordingly I should like to ask that a positive effort be made in this regard.

To bring this idea home to hon members I should like to refer to conditions in the Welkom constituency. There is a waiting list of about 2 000 telephones there. When one listens to the high figures in other constituencies, 2 000 is not, perhaps, very impressive. However, the fact remains that there are 2 000 business and private lessees who are being inconvenienced. There are people who cannot do without a telephone due to the nature of their profession or business. Here we have in mind doctors in particular, people in the insurance world and people in the helping services. They cannot simply go and live in a new extension where no telephone services are available. I want to ask that something be done in this connection. I know that efforts are being made to furnish assistance there to and I sincerely appreciate that as well. Moreover, there are voters who appreciate the efforts being made. The staff at this post office are doing their best to provide satisfactory service, but I want to give the hon the Minister the assurance that the service simply could not—I want to choose my words carefully now, because I do not want the hon the Minister to become hot under the collar—be described as adequate. The telephone services, that form an essential facet of the setup there, are not as we should like to have them and therefore I want to ask that assistance be provided in this regard.

I note in the statements and in the report of the Postmaster-General that financial assistance is being granted to certain universities. Since the technikons also serve the Post Office, is it not time for them, too, to be helped in one way or another?

In conclusion I want to refer to telephone cubicles and public telephones, about which a great deal has been said. In view of the electronics, skills and other technological progress we have today, I want to ask whether it would not be possible to control the people who stand and chat at public telephones and in telephone cubicles for long periods when there is a queue of people waiting for them. I have seen people standing in telephone cubicles speaking for 20 minutes and longer. Is there not some way to deal with this, even if tariffs have to be increased as a result? After all, this is an essential service and if people want to chat as long as the hon members for the CP, who talk such a lot of political nonsense, then they should rather pay a personal call on the people with whom they wish to speak.

Mr Chairman, the hon member for Welkom contradicted the hon member for Potgietersrus, because the hon the member for Potgietersrus said that the Post Office was a business, whereas the hon member for Welkom said that it was not really a business and that the Post Office should stop the people if they spoke too long on a telephone. Well, I should not like to refer to the hon member for Welkom because I think he made a good speech in which he analysed the activities of the Post Office. I should like to refer to the hon member for Potgietersrus. He refers very nervously to the CP every time he speaks. I have his election manifesto which he distributed just before he was elected as Member of the House of Assembly here. One of the points in it is:

Therefore it was Dr Treurnicht that he was so exceptionally loyal to. [Interjections.]

Order!

Then the hon member for Potgietersrus goes on to say in his manifesto:

Now I wish to ask him whether he is aware that this Budget …

Mr Chairman, on a point of order: Is the hon member for Kuruman not digressing from the Post Office Budget?

Order! The hon member for Potgietersrus discussed this matter and therefore I am allowing the hon member for Kuruman to react to it. The hon member for Kuruman may proceed.

Thank you, Sir. I want to ask the hon member for Potgietersrus whether he is aware that this is the last Post Office Budget that will be dealt with by the White Parliament of the Republic of South Africa. Is that not an established right of the Whites in South Africa? [Interjections.] I want to ask that hon member: Is the self-determination of the Whites with regard to his communications not profoundly affected by the constitution? [Interjections.]

Order! While I wish to allow the hon member for Kuruman to react to what the hon member for Potgietersrus said, I really cannot allow him to devote his entire speech to self-determination and similar aspects.

Thank you very much, Sir. What I really wanted to say, was that the Budget we are dealing with now is the last budget that will be dealt with by the White Parliament. This also appears in the motion of the CP. However, I shall now leave it at that.

The hon member for Potgietersrus also said that as far as Post Office affairs were concerned, the CP applied double standards. Again I want to quote from his manifesto:

I want to say that I received a call from Potgietersrus and I am told that the former MP for Potgietersrus no longer agrees with the hon member, because he has changed his standpoint. [Interjections.] I also want to ask the hon member for Potgietersrus whether he was dissatisfied …

Order! Did the hon member for Alberton say that the hon member was a traitor?

No. The former MP was, Sir.

The hon member for Kuruman may proceed.

Sir, I think it is a scandalous statement by that hon member to say these things about a member of the President’s Council in this House. I think it is a scandal. He ought to be ashamed of himself.

I want to ask the hon member for Potgietersrus whether he was dissatisfied with the NP when he had separation in the post offices. [Interjections.] I want to ask him again: Was he dissatisfied with the NP when there were still measures to bring about separation in post offices? [Interjections.]

Order!

I asked the hon the Minister in this House to build a post office for the Brown people in their town in Kuruman and to build a post office for the Black people in their town. Kuruman’s people are fortunate because each of these groups has its own post office in its own area. That is in accordance with the policy of the CP. The Brown people have a Brown postmaster in Kuruman. [Interjections.]

Order! I request hon members to afford the hon member for Kuruman the opportunity to make his speech. The hon member for Kuruman may proceed.

The hon member said that the Post Office was a business undertaking. He said that there was no difference between buying a stamp at a Post Office and buying any other article at a shop. To show how inconsistent is the policy of the party to which he belongs, I want to mention an example to him. City Tramways in Cape Town is a transport company, a business enterprise, and it transports passengers on a mixed basis. The SATS is also a business institution, but does it transport passengers on a mixed basis? [Interjections.] I just mention this example to show how inconsistent and illogical the standpoints of the NP are.

If the CP makes a plea for the Whites, if we champion the cause of the Whites in this House, there is a chorus on that side that takes this amiss of us and says that we are racists. Yesterday, when we moved the amendment in which we called for certain rights for the Whites of South Africa and asked for certain assurances from the hon the Minister, the hon member for Bezuidenhout said that we were coming forward with naked racism. The CP will champion the cause of the Whites of South Africa in this House and also in the House of Assembly of the new dispensation for the Whites of South Africa. Hon members can say we are racists if they like, but the Whites of South Africa will see to it that the CP will work on the creation of the future of South Africa in this House. [Interjections.]

I read in the annual report of the Department of Posts and Telecommunications that major developments were taking place in the field of radiocommunications services. It is cause for gratitude that the Post Office is keeping abreast in this field. The Post Office is present in every corner of the Republic of South Africa. I have the privilege of representing an area which borders on Botswana and which is sparsely populated, where farms are big and farmers live a long way apart. We are grateful to have the telephone at our disposal there in order to link the communities, not only with one another, but also with the rest of the country. It links them with their friends and families, with neighbours, with the hospital and others. However, we find that the platteland is becoming depopulated. Our people in these sparsely populated areas are finding it difficult to stay on the farms due to economic and other social conditions. The radio communication system, in conjunction with civil defence, is playing a very important role to secure these areas. Most farmers in those areas have citizen band facilities or are linked up with the Mamet system. [Time expired.]

Mr Chairman, I shall try, in the limited time at my disposal, to reply to most of the questions. I shall provide written replies to questions to which I am not able to reply today. Incidentally, a great deal is being said about the new dispensation, but I think that in the new dispensation a change should be made to a certain rule. I pointed out last year that a Minister was expected to listen during the course of one afternoon, for virtually three hours, to his Budget being debated, and then has to reply within 10 or 15 minutes to a host of questions put to him by hon members. This procedure is unfair to both members and Minister, and I believe that the debate ought to be adjourned so that the Minister can be afforded an opportunity to study his notes properly. If hon members are going to participate in the new dispensation I should like the support of all of them, as well as of hon members of the CP, so that we can amend the procedure to which I have just referred.

I want to thank the hon member for East London City for his reference to postal services in the operational area. He also raised matters concerning his own area, a constituency of which we have a high opinion, and we shall most certainly give attention to the matters which he raised. We shall also reply in writing to the questions which he asked.

†The hon member for Constantia referred to a number of interesting matters. I must say that this hon member has certainly undergone a change of personality since those days when we sat together in the Cape Provincial Council. Today he comes with thank you’s and has nothing but praise for the Post Office. This is the first department that I am in charge of that he has praised. I think he is becoming a very sound member for his constituency.

The hon member raised a point in regard to the permanent appointment of married women, and I completely agree with him. I do not think that this section in our Act should be retained, but we are looking at it right now and the possibility is that when revising the Act, we will scrap that section. In any case, half of the Post Office staff are women. This also applied to the nursing profession and the hon member will remember that in the Cape Province married women are not barred from being nurses or sisters. We will therefore consider removing that section from the Act.

The hon member also asked a question in regard to Beitel. I mentioned earlier that this project was in the experimental stage. The best system is without a doubt the Cept system, and although we have not yet taken a final decision, there is a possibility that we may switch systems, and we have warned all the subscribers that this may happen. As the hon member undoubtedly knows, this type of electronic equipment does change from time to time. That is why we warn subscribers of possible changes. However, it seems that we will probably be moving into that field on the Cept system instead of on the Prestel system.

The hon member also referred to emergency phones. I thank him for the thank you’s but I cannot accept them as it is actually road safety that is installing these telephones, and they will therefore take the risk of vandalism, etc. However, these telephones will be different to ours. I believe it will be a type of radio phone. Our only involvement in this regard is the installing and maintenance of the cables. We will not be responsible for replacing any of these telephones that may be destroyed, and I am quite sure that a large number will be tampered with.

We have had a large number of requests for date-bound commemorative stamps. I must, however, point out that several places in South Africa have now become 100 years old. We have actually received anything between 25 to 125 year commemoration requests and we have to say yes to some and no to others. We still have commemorative stamps and hon members may have noticed the very interesting range we have of English writers. This also includes beautiful postcards of the four writers that were chosen by the experts who advise us on these matters. However, the problem is that date-bound stamps has caught up a bit, but we have had sound advice on this matter from both the Philatelic Society and our section. I would therefore like to help the hon member, but I am not a philatelist and therefore cannot say yes or no. I have to take advice and the Postmaster-General also consults the various bodies before we make any changes.

I thank the hon member for his remarks about Constantia and it might well be that when he goes back to his constituency this evening and makes inquiries, he will find that the 55 telephones have been installed as well, because we like him and we also like his constituency.

*The hon member for Newcastle did what I thought was a very nice thing here this afternoon. He paid tribute to our technical staff. He spoke about their training and associated himself with what the hon member for Newton Park had said about it. That member also said very nice things about the training of our staff. He even said that he thought our staff was among the best in the world. The hon member for Newcastle supported him in that, and also paid tribute to them for the great work they had done at Nkomati. I can assure hon members that to prepare a hundred exchange lines, as well as 20 telex lines for overseas use, and quite a number of other telex lines, two television cables and so on, and to do so in the open veld, was truly a great achievement.

Fortunately we had a microwave tower nearby, and tomorrow we shall see the success of this great effort. It is true that the people rendered excellent service there, as well as in the flood-stricken areas. We are very proud of them. However, I think that the hon member did them a great honour by drawing attention once again today to the 6 400 people in various training groups who are being trained by the Post Office. In this aspect the Post Office may consequently be counted among the educational organizations.

The hon member for Nigel said he wanted to discuss a problem with me. I welcome it. That is the way in which we ought to deal with things, instead of scoring political debating points off one another in this House. The hon member also raised a few problems in his constituency. As far as the matter of the Heidelberg Post Office is concerned, I hope that we will be able to adhere to the envisaged date. I am almost certain that we will succeed. If there are any other problems relating to the hon member’s constituency, problems to which I cannot react now, I shall reply to him in writing. He said that the telephone call boxes which he asked for had already been installed. These are the new modern telephone call boxes. Therefore we are in fact doing our best.

The hon member for Potgietersrus also said a few interesting things. I think he summarized things very concisely. When one is running a business undertaking, one adheres to business principles. I hear that at those CP shops in Potgietersrus one has to be a little careful or one is trampled to death before one reaches the counter. Of course I am not saying who tramples who to death. However, someone is trampling someone else to death. But the owner of the shop does not mind at all. [Interjections.] The businessman does not mind. [Interjections.] But if such problems are occurring at the Potgietersrus Post Office, do hon members know what policy we are following? I set out our policy yesterday evening. It is nothing new at all. These are things which hon members of the CP all learnt when they were still members of the NP. [Interjections.] Whatever the hon member for Kuruman knows about post offices, he learnt when he was still in the NP. He was a member of the NP caucus for years and made no objection to the throwing open of post offices. [Interjections.] No, the hon member said nothing about them. He said nothing about it in the caucus. He said nothing about it here in the House of Assembly. He never discussed this matter with the party leaders of the Cape. He never approached the Cape Executive of the NP in this regard. He never spoke to anyone about this. [Interjections.] Of course this will not set us at loggerheads now. The hon member for Kuruman and I are still good friends, even though he is a CP member. One must remember however that one has to give recognition to … [Interjections.] One has to give recognition to the mother who suckled you. The NP suckled the hon member for Kuruman when he was still a political baby. He will never outgrow that mother’s milk. [Interjections.]

The hon member for Potgietersrus also discussed manual exchanges and rural telephone services. These are of course our most expensive services. However, we maintain them precisely because we have so much sympathy for the country-dwellers who are in difficulties, who are perhaps experiencing security problems. We shall ensure that those services are maintained. The hon member spoke with a touch of nostalgia about the closing of the manual exchanges. Of course we try to ensure that those staff members are not left stranded. The hon member also thanked us for the new automatic telephone exchange at Warmbaths, and also put in a plea on behalf of Marble Hall and Naboomspruit. He asked that those two places should not be left behind. We shall look after them as well. All the hon member must do is continue to hold his own in Potgietersrus. We shall see to it that his back is covered. [Interjections.]

†The hon member for Pietermaritzburg South asked me a few questions. I cannot understand why hon members of the PFP should always try to make a Black-White issue out of every matter raised in this House. The Post Office is known for its endeavours to be fair to everybody. The Post Office tries to treat everybody fairly in every respect, including the payment of salaries. It is easy to explain the difference between authorized and unauthorized jobs. Authorized jobs are those performed in terms of our authorized schedules. Unauthorized jobs are jobs done by special request. If somebody, for instance, needs a work team and employs labourers for that purpose he does not have to draw up a special schedule for that. He merely employs his team of workers to carry out a specific task. These are mostly labourers performing menial tasks. They can be of any race group, as long as they are willing to perform a specific task, be it digging a trench or installing a cable. An authorized job, however, is one that is carried out by a fulltime member of the staff of the Post Office. The former can be regarded as of a general nature. Everything relating to that job is temporary. We have a whole system of job evaluation and a whole system of differentiation. There are also housing loans and subsidies and pension and medical aid schemes. Furthermore there are also old aged homes and crèches. We nave all these categories in an effort to keep our personnel. However, when I ask for an additional amount of R133 million for salaries and the improvement of conditions, then the official Opposition must not oppose it and tell me that it is the worst budget ever produced because of overspending. The Opposition must support me in my efforts to give the staff the best amenities. If it is necessary to increase the tariffs in order to keep staff and to give them a more market-orientated salary, I shall have to do it, and if the PFP do not want to support me, then they need not but they should not criticize me for not being able to keep staff. [Interjections.] The hon member for Hillbrow did not even know that I spent more than R20 million on salaries.

A lot has been said about Beltel. Beltel is something quite good for schools and other educational purposes, but the education authorities will have to decide on that; we only supply the service.

The hon member for Albany referred to a certain party line. I hope that line does not serve Progs only but also some of our supporters. He said that line has been in operation for 42 years but I hope that the electronic exchanges which we are going to install will last for more than 40 years.

*Perhaps I should explain something to the hon member for Welkom as I also explained it to the hon member for Hillbrow. Actually we do not have a backlog; we have a “frontlog”, to coin a new word. We receive as many applications as the number of new telephones we install. Over the past three years we have installed 820 000 new telephones, but we already have 240 000 applications. This year we are going try to install 300 000 telephones, and I am quite prepared to make a bet that if we succeed in installing all those telephones, we shall still have a waiting list of 150 000 at the end of the year. The prosperity prevailing in this country generates new services. People want to make use of these services, and we provide them. We have already installed 3,6 million telephones and we shall help Welkom as well; I know the service there is poor. I am not reprimanding the hon member; I am merely telling him that he should not attack us when we want to help him. [Interjections.] We do so gladly because we want to help him.

The assistance to universities is actually in connection with the training of engineers because we give engineers subsidies.

Mr Chairman, it seems to me you want to tell me that my time has expired. Well, you were not really able to participate in the debate. You represent the Klip River constituency and perhaps we should have a look at your area as well, particularly at Bergville and Winterton and Muden. Perhaps we should see whether we cannot automate those exchanges. It is a fact that you need not in fact say anything; we already know what your needs are.

I conclude by telling the hon member for Kuruman that he must stop stirring up petty political issues in this House. I cannot afford having that kind of talk here. Everyone on this side, including myself, is just as conservative as the hon member when it comes to community …

You say you are conservative but then you want to remove the right of self-determination.

Look, the hon member learnt conservatism from us; we trained him here. He learnt how to be a Nationalist from us.

I am a born Nationalist.

The same applies to us. The hon member must not think that he has the sole right to speak on behalf of the Whites; we speak on behalf of the majority of the Whites in this country and, what is more, we speak on behalf of the majority of Afrikaners. We do so to the best of our ability and we put a stop to overcrowding wherever it is necessary to do so.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No 75.

Mr Speaker, I move, subject to Standing Order No 56:

Mr Speaker, the one problem I wish to raise is in regard to the question of housing. I want to say that it is absolutely necessary that housing should be provided and in this particular Budget an amount of some R56 million has been provided for housing. However, what worries me is the fact that the price of housing is escalating. We have the problem, therefore, that the more money we provide the fewer housing units we seem to be able to build. Where we have the State Administration, the SATS and the Post Office putting in these vast sums of money every year, I feel that perhaps they may be creating a problem for themselves. I want to ask the hon the Minister whether he will not perhaps be able to arrange some sort of conference among the three bodies I have mentioned providing all this money for housing in order to see whether some means cannot be found to prevent the escalation in the prices of houses. This fact is making it very much more difficult for the average man to obtain a house. We noticed from the SATS Budget that it cost about R55 000 for the average home bought by a SATS employee last year and I am sure that the same thing will apply to the Post Office this year. As I say, I think that the time has come for these three bodies to get together to try to find some way in which they can keep the prices of houses down.

Mr Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to follow the hon member for Bezuidenhout, who referred to the problems in connection with the increased prices for houses. I think this is a matter which arouses concern among all of us and if something can be done in this connection I think everyone in South Africa will benefit. We also think that it is certainly a problem in the Post Office, as it is in any other department or for any private person.

Before I come to my speech, I want to make a few comments on what the hon member for Kuruman said. I do not want to turn this into a political issue. I just want to tell him that the Post Office in South Africa serves the entire South African community.

Who disputes that?

The hon member for Rissik should read his benchmate’s Hansard. He will see that the hon member for Kuruman said that this was the last time the Whites would get the opportunity to discuss the postal services of the Whites in a Budget. [Interjections.] After all, it is not the postal service of the Whites only. It is not a Whites only Post Office Budget either. It includes the entire community. [Interjections.] Why do hon members of the CP always arrogate to themselves the right to act and think in a chauvinistic and paternalistic way that they are the only people who have the right to decide about something which affects the entire community in South Africa? Are there not other people who also have the right to discuss matters affecting them and take decisions on those matters?

May I please ask a question?

No, Sir, I am not prepared to reply to a question from that hon member.

I should now like to deal with a few financial aspects of this Bill. We are now in the dying moments of this debate and I think many people are probably saddle-sore by now, particularly those officials at the back. Someone has already remarked that by this time they should have formed very interesting impressions of MPs. I think we are all very grateful for the information which we receive from them, on the basis of which we are able to put together the occasional speech.

Inflation is always one of the matters which is seized upon by Opposition members as the most popular subject by means of which they try to level criticism at a government. They are always trying to imply that this Government has no sympathy for the consumer, that this Government simply goes ahead and increases certain prices without taking the consumer into consideration. The impression is created that the Government pays no heed whatsoever to inflation and does not consider it to be important. Everyone talks about inflation, but no one on the Opposition side tells us how inflation should be combated in South Africa. No one offers us that magic formula. We should like to hear from one of them one day what that magic formula is. For any government inflation is a major problem. When it comes to the increasing of tariffs, it is a problem for the Post Office as well. The Opposition cannot accept that the Post Office and the Government increase tariffs simply for the sake of increasing tariffs, and that they do so simply because they like doing so. Anyone who increases a tariff does so reluctantly. In this case tariffs have been reluctantly increased. As a result of the circumstances, however, there was no alternative. I shall come back to this later.

The decision as to when tariffs have to be increased is not always an easy one to take. If a quality service has to be rendered, and expansion is to keep pace with the demand, there is a problem. You are then caught between two fires. Mere expansion, and therefore the rendering of more services in a service like the Post Office is not its only objective. The other objective is constant renewal. In this service mention should be made of keeping up to date in the sphere of technological development and meeting the need for sophisticated services. These two things should always be accorded a high priority.

In his speech during the Second Reading debate, the hon member for Hillbrow, just as he did in last year’s debate, appealed for a selective procedure to be adopted in the capital expenditure programme and for consideration to be given to a capital programme which would lead to increased revenue. The hon member must tell us how, in an integrated service such as this, in which one thing leads to another, one should do the one thing and omit to do the other. In Afrikaans there is an excellent saying that one should do the one thing without omitting to do the other. In an integrated service such as the Post Office, this is particularly applicable. Development in a specific sphere brings about inevitable changes in another sphere. The Post Office has a modern micro-wave system, and the logical step ensuing from this is that it will change over to a digital exchange network and after that to a push-button telephone system. After all, it is no use having a terribly smart car with a 1984 body, equipped with a model T Ford engine. That is how some hon members opposite want the Post Office to be run.

Tariffs are a subject about which the Opposition have the most to say. They keep on asking us to look at the tariffs. Well, let us do so. We can be selective and take any aspect of the service as an example. Let us take letters. The present tariff is 10 cents per letter and this is now being increased to 11 cents per letter. In the USA the postage per letter is at present 25 cents, in England 28 cents, in Japan 32 cents and in Australia 34 cents. The tariff for dispatching a packet weighing 1 kilogramme is 95 cents in South Africa, R2,23 in the USA, R2,28 in England and R3,90 in West Germany. Our tariffs are therefore the cheapest in the world. On the other hand, our services are among the best. Where possible mail matter is conveyed by aircraft, while between cities such as Johannesburg and Pretoria they are conveyed by road. Letters posted early in the morning in Pretoria reach Johannesburg the same day.

The management is constantly looking for ways in which the services can be improved.

Let us look for a while at the tariff adjustments during the past five years. Since 1979, call unit costs have risen from 5 cents to 8 cents. This was an increase of approximately 13% per annum during the past five years. The total revenue from telephone calls was 58%, or R967 million last year. The increase for a telephone call in 1979-80 was 25% and this year it is being increased by approximately 14%. During the past five years there has also been an increase of approximately 13% in rentals. The installation costs have remained constant at R75, and a subscriber may pay it off in three instalments, which makes it easier for him to obtain a new telephone.

Postal tariffs in respect of standardized mail matter were increased by 11%, and the average since 1979 is 20%. At first glance these increases seem very high, but in spite of that it is a fact that our tariffs are still among the lowest in the world. They are more than 50% cheaper than the next cheapest country. It is also true that this service is being run at a considerable loss. The crosssubsidization—if one could talk about that in this case—for the delivery of mail matter amounts to more than 58%. If an economic tariff had to be charged for a letter or a mail item, then the postage should amount to at least 18 cents per letter. Consequently there is nothing difficult about picking out certain services and over-emphasizing the increases on those services. The fact of the matter is that the total increase amounts to 8,99%.

I should like to make a few observations on the capital programme. The ideal position is that any undertaking must maintain a sound balance between the self-financing of expansion and borrowed money for expansion. When loans become too high, the financial leverage is too acute and this can of course have a very inhibitory effect on the means of any organization as a result of a high interest rate and therefore a high repayment. The demand for more and better services and the decentralization policy of the Government can make heavy demands on the Post Office, particularly on its capital programme. My experience has been that when industrialists occupy new premises they want more telephone lines and telex services the next day. Those services have to be provided if we wish to accommodate this financing programme. It is therefore a sound, and a good principle to be able to render services when the demand for them exists.

The costs involved in the expansion programme of the Post Office are subject to factors beyond its control, inter alia, general price increases, increased GST and higher transportation rates, fuel prices and interest rates. All these factors have an effect when the overall calculation is made. According to the present Budget the capital expenditure is increasing by 25,7%, while the actual need is in the region of 40%. As a result of the decrease in the operating surplus during the previous year and the fact that the Post Office is budgeting for a loss in 1984-85, self-sufficiency as far as capital is concerned has decreased to 23%.

The hon member for Sunnyside referred to the fact that at present 76% of the funds for capital programmes has to be borrowed. He also referred to the resultant interest charges. I share his concern about an excessively high financial leverage if disproportionate borrowing occurs. Since the Post Office does not have the advantage of a tax rebate on any interest they pay, the high interest burden and the financial leverage arising as a result of this becomes even more unattractive to them. One must remember, however, that in developed countries, such as Canada, the Netherlands, West Germany and the United Kingdom, they have, in certain cases, succeeded in becoming 100% self-sufficient in their capital requirements for expansion. My philosophy of life is that there must always be a reason for something and therefore we must see what the reason for this high loan programme is.

The Franzsen Commission recommended 50%, and one should try to establish why the Post Office cannot maintain that 50%. Until 1982 they were able to succeed, to a reasonable extent, in maintaining that ratio. Subsequently it dropped to 29%, to 27% and than to the present 23%. There must be a reason for this situation, and I have tried to find a number of reasons for this.

Since 1980 South Africa has gone into top gear as far as its expansion programmes in the technical sphere of posts and telecomminications are concerned. The capital programme has risen from R180 million since 1974-75 to R1 276 million in 1984-85. This is an increase of 708% over a period of ten years. If we express this in real terms and take inflation into account, it comes to an increase of approximately 254%.

Since 1981-82 the operating surplus from which this self-financing must be derived has declined. Consequently the Management had no choice but to restrain capital expansion, thus falling far behind technologically, so far behind that we would subsequently have been able to close the gap. Consequently money had to be borrowed. Unlike other states this country is a developing country. The equipment we use is expensive and has to be installed because there is a demand for it.

I want to conclude by saying that quite a number of anomalies have to be accommodated. There is a demand for services. There is a demand for specialized services. There are rising costs. There are salary adjustments. In contrast to these things we have other factors resulting in a lower volume of consumption during a recession and to a deficit on our account. The hon the Minister and his managerial team should be congratulated on the way in which, under difficult circumstances, they prepared such a Budget as this for us.

Mr Speaker, I shall be very brief because I have already said most of the things I wanted to say.

Hear, hear!

Hon members are saying “Hear, hear”. But we have already given them a hammering in this debate. [Interjections.] As a result they are feeling guilty. I see that even the hon member for Gezina is laughing. It is wonderful to see him laugh, because usually he walks around here like a baboon that has had his tail scorched and is angry with everyone he meets. He just wants to sink his teeth in. [Interjections.]

Order! Did the hon member for Nigel refer to another hon member in this House as a baboon?

Sir, I withdraw it.

I should like to take this opportunity to wish Messrs Raath and De Klerk a very pleasant retirement. They rendered very good service to this department and now that they are about to retire, we hope that retirement will be pleasant for them. They are still relatively young and energetic, and I am certain that their good wives will be very glad to have them at home a little more often now that they are no longer working for the Post Office all day long. I should also like to congratulate their successors. I understand there is another Mr Raath and a Mr Van Rensburg. We hope that they will have an equally good and pleasant period of service in the department.

Inflation has hit not only the Post Office hard, but also the entire country. I know that the problems in the Post Office can also largely be ascribed to conditions prevailing throughout the country. I cannot help but wonder whether the Government of the day has not lost its grip on inflation. It is a fact that the stranglehold of inflation is tremendous. What is not more expensive nowadays? My heart really goes out to the poor man in South Africa. Nowadays he can barely stay alive. If one tries to buy anything nowadays, for example food, what does one get for the large amount of money one has to spend? One gets virtually nothing.

Order! I want to point out to the hon member that we are discussing the Post Office Appropriation and that he must confine himself to discussing it.

I am merely referring to the inflation which the entire country is experiencing. The Post Office also has to deal with inflation. I know that the hon the Minister charged with this department cannot really do anything about this in the House, but I want to ask him to be so kind as to use his influence in the Cabinet, and specifically with the Minister of Finance, to ensure that this matter is faced up to.

Mr Speaker, I also want to start by paying tribute to Mr Raath and Mr De Klerk who are retiring. I had close contact with Mr Barry de Klerk for many years. I hope that I shall be able to build up the same contact in Waterkloof with the people taking over from them.

Considering the debate thus far, there is something that bothers me tremendously. Particularly among the ranks of the Opposition there is confusion about the objectives of the Post Office as a State organization. On the one hand it is stated that it is the function of the Post Office to provide telephones. I think the hon member for Hillbrow referred to that. He said the function of telecommunications was to provide telephones. It is really extremely simplistic of the hon chief spokesman of the PFP to say such a thing. [Interjections.]

I did not say that.

Allow me to quote from what the hon member said. He said: “… the main and vital function of telecommunications, namely the provision of telephones”. I am quoting from his unrevised Hansard.

I want to go a step further. When one looks at a State organization one has to realize that it has to deal with both commercial principles and Government policy. Because it has to meet both these requirements, which is extremely difficult, it has more than one objective. Having more than one objective is not quite the same as in the business world, where there is only one objective, namely the maximization of profit, money, on which one can build one’s strategy and staff structure. Here one has to deal with the profit motive in another form, and also with Government policy which has to be complied with. One can sum this up by saying that here one is dealing with the concepts “efficiency" and "equality".

The charges frequently levelled at the Post Office regarding its losses on mail items or the high cost of rural telephone lines, should be seen in the light of the fact that it is the function of the Post Office to render commensurate services to all residents in the country. At the same time, however, the Post Office also has to endeavour to be efficient. It is therefore clear that it is very difficult to draw up a clear strategy for the Post Office within this double framework. What is interesting is that the hon the Minister told us that the Post Office had an eight-year plan. It is therefore trying to adopt a long-term plan.

What is it that we want from the Post Office, and what is its function? Its function is to develop an information communications system which complies with the principles of effectiveness and equality. This should be seen as the objective of the Post Office. Because the Post Office actually has to serve two masters, we are dealing with a kind of organizational structure that is very centralized. One also finds this in Canada and Germany and wherever similar objectives are pursued. For that reason we should again congratulate the hon the Minister for appointing another Deputy Postmaster-General, because he has to keep his top management strong. As regards the concept of an effective information communications system, we have to realize that a revolution is taking place in this field. This is a revolution such as the one we had a few years ago in the case of containerization, which cost the country R2 billion. The Post Office, however, has to try to find this money itself, and I believe it is going to cost us more than R2 billion.

It is interesting to note that the assets of our telecommunications equipment only constitute 3,6% of our gross national product, whereas in developed countries, such as Germany and the United States, this already constitutes more than 9%. It is therefore clear that we have a tremendous backlog in this field. In spite of this, however, the Opposition has objected violently to the capital expansion being planned by the Post Office at present. I consider this a disgrace, because we have to accept that digital transmission systems at digital exchanges are now the fashion, and that is why there is now this change-over. Germany hopes to have changed over completely by 1987, and it is quite interesting to see what is going on in that country. As a result of the high costs involved in the change-over, last year the Bundestag passed legislation to change their tariff structure to finance the costs of the change-over. I should like to quote from Business Week, which has just been published and in which an article on these revolutionary trends appears. It reads:

At the same time the nation’s telecommunications infrastructure is becoming essential in maintaining a good business climate. Without modern flexibility and competitively priced communications facilities, the country runs the risk of slowing overall economic development if not stopping it altogether. Telecommunications are as essential to business infrastructure as good highways.

Even more so.

I agree with the hon member for Umhlanga that nowadays good communications systems are even more important than roads.

My time has almost expired, and for that reason there is just one more thing I want to ask the hon the Minister. This week we passed legislation on the Post Office Savings Bank, but there is now quite a bit of uncertainty among banks and building societies regarding the fact that the Post Office is going to accept deposits and introduce transmission accounts, etc. These institutions are afraid that the Post Office may present them with unfair competition. I would therefore be glad if the hon the Minister could give banks and building societies the assurance that it is not the aim of the Post Office to cut itself a piece out of the private sector cake as if it were a commercial bank. My view is that the Post Office is endeavouring to run this business on a 50:50 basis, and in my opinion this principle is a clear indication that the Post Office does not intend to become a new Trust Bank or Volkskas.

When one considers the new system which is to be applied, it is clear that the digital system creates interesting possibilities. The first of these is telemarketing; in other words, marketing by telephone. If one compares this with direct mailing, one finds that telemarketing is more effective.