Mr Speaker, on the previous occasion, before the debate on the Bill now under discussion was adjourned, I was replying to a speech by the hon member for Bezuidenhout. I had almost reached the end of my reply. I should just like to add a last sentence or two.

†The position at present is that any person who intends to export any animal or animal product should ascertain the requirements laid down by the importing countries with which such animal or animal product should comply. He then furnishes those requirements to the Director of Veterinary Services, who carries out the necessary investigations and inspections. If he is satisfied that the animal or the animal product concerned complies with those requirements he issues a certificate to that effect. These certificates are accepted world-wide except by the USA.

It is the responsibility of every importing country to ensure that everything entering that country complies with the existing restrictions concerning import. That is what this Bill is aimed at. To enable us to comply with restrictions regarding our imports from other countries, this Bill has been introduced here in this House. It is the prerogative of every country to determine its own import requirements, and one country cannot prescribe by legislation what should be applicable in another country. It is impossible to enforce such legislation there. Hence the prohibition in the legislation of the USA regarding the importation of animal products from countries where certain animal diseases are endemic.

I believe that the USA, to a large extent, uses this as a method of preventing the importation of animal products. We all know that they are also saddled with large surpluses, and I see this as a method of protection. The US Department of Agriculture confirmed on 2 March this year that unless the Division of Veterinary Services could unconditionally certify that foot-and-mouth disease, African swine fever, cholera or swine vascular disease have been completely eradicated in the Republic of South Africa they would not be prepared to allow any animal products from South Africa to be imported into the USA. I can assure the hon member for Bezuidenhout that the US Department of Agriculture is well aware of the fact that we have zoning and that we restrict these animal diseases to certain zones. We cannot, however, force the USA to accept our products. They have their own rules and regulations which they follow. We have done everything in our power to enable them, upon the strength of certificates issued by our Department of Agriculture, to accept these products.

Mr Speaker, that concludes my reply to the Second Reading debate. I should once again thank hon members who have participated in this debate for their positive contributions.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Mr Chairman, I move the amendment printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

I mentioned during Second Reading that the purpose of the amendment I was placing on the Order Paper was to overcome what, I believe, was a very serious problem as far as the USA was concerned. Firstly I should like to put it to the hon the Deputy Minister that countries such as Holland, Germany, Poland, Yugoslavia, and other European countries all are exporting canned ham to the USA. They have no problems at all. Therefore the question of using certain prohibitions as means of preventing importation is not quite correct. It is true that African swine fever is one of the diseases included in those prohibiting regulations. I do believe, however, that we should do something in order to ensure that, particularly in the Western Province and in the Boland, as well as in Natal, where there has not been swine fever for many, many years, farmers should be given the opportunity of being able to supply the market of the USA too. The duties are low, and if the quality and the price are right the product can be sold there.

I believe the department should go further and show its goodwill in respect of this particular amendment. It should at the same time ensure that we have an opportunity of going in there. I know this is a difficult problem. If I had not thought the problem was a difficult one, I would not have raised it here in this Committee. However, knowing this to be the position, I think it is absolutely necessary that something be done in this regard because this is of one of the most fruitful markets that we have.

I should just like to correct a statement that was made by the hon the Deputy Minister. I am interested in the farmers of Malmesbury and also the farmers of Natal. It so happens that the question was put to me by a certain importer when I attended a particular conference in the USA. On returning to South Africa, I discovered this particular problem which I have now raised. It does seriously affect exports of these products from our South African farmers. I also feel that the hon the Minister of Industries, Commerce and Tourism should do something about the matter to help the hon the Minister of Agriculture.

Mr Chairman, since African swine fever and foot-and-mouth disease are endemic to the Republic, the exportation of meat to the EEC also posed certain problems. After the control measures applied by the Division of Veterinary Services had been investigated locally by England and the EEC and had been found to be satisfactory, they agreed to accept certain animal products from South Africa. The Division of Veterinary Services is currently negotiating with the US Department of Agriculture to try to convince them that the manner in which certain animal products, especially in regard to enzymes, are prepared ensures that none of the said animal diseases can be spread by means of those products. The division also endeavours to convince the USDA that the local control measures relating to the prevention of the spread of animal diseases also have the effect that the relevant diseases will not spread to countries importing animals and animal products from South Africa. However, since South Africa is part of the Continent of Africa and the US has an embargo on the importation of animals and animal products from Africa—not from South Africa but from Africa—it is doubtful whether the USDA would accept the position of South Africa in this regard. As I have said before, we have zoning to the satisfaction of the EEC and most other countries. It is only the US that will not budge in this regard. Unless the attitude of the USDA is changed by way of negotiation there appears to be very little hope that South Africa will be in a position to export animal products to the USA.

The assurance required by the USDA cannot be given by means of any legislative provision since the relevant animal diseases can only be eradicated completely in the Republic if all game in the controlled areas including the Kruger National Park is destroyed. Even then, measures to prevent game from entering the Republic from neighbouring States will have to be introduced. You will undoubtedly agree, Sir, that considering the consequences of such steps, they are totally impractical.

Therefore, since the proposed amendment cannot achieve the objectives for which it has been moved and would constitute an ambiguty in the Bill, I am afraid that I cannot accept the amendment of the hon member for Bezuidenhout.

Mr Chairman, I agree with most of what the hon the Deputy Minister has had to say, particularly with reference to the fact that most of the diseases occur on the borders of the Kruger National Park. I should like to suggest to the hon the Deputy Minister that, as there is an agricultural attaché here attached to the US Embassy, some sort of contact should be made with the Embassy locally. Although efforts are made in the USA to do something about this particular problem, they do not seem to understand the problem. I think it is unfair and incorrect that a country such as ours which has such a magnificent veterinary service and one of the finest research stations in the world and in which veterinarians of world repute are employed should be subject to what I would call almost an indignity as far as their being able to certify that no diseases are found in certain parts of South Africa. That their certificates are not accepted in the USA is not fair. I believe that the hon the Minister of Agriculture and the hon the Minister of Industries, Commerce and Tourism should take it up with the embassy. They should rather start here.

I do not agree with the hon the Deputy Minister’s statement that the amendment which I have moved is outside the scope of the Bill. The scope of a Bill is determined in terms of the long title of that Bill. I cannot see how my amendment can be outside the scope of the Bill. The long title of the Bill under consideration reads:

Sir, it is for you to give a ruling on this.

Clause 9:

Mr Chairman, clause 2(1) provides that the director may exercise and carry out the powers and duties which have to be exercised and carried out administratively. Clause 2(3)(a) provides that the officers referred to in the definition of “officer” may also exercise and carry out those powers and duties the Director delegates to them. In addition clause 3 provides that the director may also authorize other persons to exercise and carry out specific powers and duties. Because the Director has overall responsibility for the exercising and carrying out of all administrative powers and duties, those powers and duties therefore have to be conferred on him. Since powers and duties are being directly conferred on officers, authorized persons and other persons in the Bill, a conflict situation is created. I therefore move that the Bill be rectified as set out in the two amendments printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:

1. 1. On page 21, from line 34, to omit “other persons, officers or authorized persons” and to substitute “the director”.
2. 2. On page 21, in line 43, to omit “officers" and to substitute “the director”.

Mr Chairman, I thank the hon member for Fauresmith for the amendments he moved. As will be noted, the Bill is a complete rewrite of an existing Act which has been amended many times over the years and which, if retained would probably have had to be amended many more times. It is a fact that when an Act is rewritten, minor errors—if one could call them that— do creep in. I am very grateful for the alertness of hon members in pointing out such mistakes to us. I take pleasure in accepting the amendments.

Amendments 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 13:

Mr Chairman, the words “or any owner or manager in respect of land” appear in the introductory sentence of clause 13(1). The omission of a reference to “land” in the last sentence of the clause and to “manager” in clause 13(3)(a) could lead to problems of interpretation. I therefore move the following amendments:

1. 1. On page 29, in line 8, after “thing" to insert:
   or that land, as the case may be
2. 2. On page 29, in line 18, after “owner" to insert “or manager”.

The legal draftsmen gave me the assurance that the insertion of these words was broached during the proof-reading of the Bill, but owing to pressure of work their insertion was overlooked. In order to eliminate these defects in the clause I am moving these amendments for consideration by the hon the Deputy Minister.

Mr Chairman, here we are merely dealing with a technical rectification, and for that reason I accept the amendments.

Amendments 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 15:

Mr Chairman, in terms of the definition of “this Act” the expression includes any regulation, control measure and animal health scheme. For various practical reasons it is essential for this to be the case, particularly because interpretations, given to related provisions of the Bill, regulations, control measures and animal health schemes, must apply throughout. In view of the quoted definition, clause 15(1) creates the impression that the control measure referred to in it is a separate entity which is not related to the other control measures. This could lead to serious problems of interpretation, and in order to prevent this I move the following amendment:

1. 1. On page 31, in line 8, to omit “a control measure or of”.

Mr Chairman, I also accept this amendment of the hon member.

Amendment 1 agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 17:

Mr Chairman, clause 12 requires an owner or manager of land and the owner of animals, whenever he finds a stray animal on his land or among his animals, to detain that animal and report to the Director. However, in practice it sometimes happens that in the course of carrying out their duties officers come across an animal which, in their opinion, has strayed from somewhere else, but which they have not yet been informed of by the relevant manager or owner. The Bill makes no provision for what steps the officers should take under such circumstances, particularly where no offence would seem to have been committed in respect of such an animal or where in all probability that animal is not infected with any disease. Such stray animals may, however, spread disease at some or other stage because their movements are not controlled. In order to overcome this defect in the Bill, the Director must be empowered, with due regard to the relevant provisions, to deal with such an animal. In the second place the definition of “contaminated thing” in clause 1 of the Bill includes an animal. The word “dier” in line 60, on page 32 of the Afrikaans text and the word “animal” in line 57 on page 33 of the English text will lead to problems of interpretation in the light of the foregoing definition. Subsection (1)(b) of this clause therefore has to be rectified, and with this in mind I move as an amendment:

1. 1. On page 33, in line 57, to omit “animal or thing” and to substitute:
   thing, or any animal which he finds and which he knows, or on reasonable grounds suspects, to have strayed to the place where he finds it from a place outside the Republic

Amendment 1 agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 20:

Mr Chairman, the conditions for which provision is made in clause 20 will mainly have a bearing on procedures which have to be adopted in order to ensure that animal diseases and parasites involved in the act prohibited in terms of that clause, will not spread from the place where that act is performed. The intention is therefore that those acts must be performed in terms of the relevant procedures which may be prescribed for this purpose. The words “subject to" could here lead to a problem of interpretation. The wording of clause 6(1)(a), which also prohibits a specific act, unless specific procedures are adopted, contains no such uncertainty. In order to eliminate any uncertainty and to ensure uniformity, I therefore move the amendment printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:

Mr Chairman, there is a difference between the words “subject to” and “in compliance with”. I am therefore glad that the hon member spotted this mistake, and I take pleasure in accepting the amendment.

Amendment 1 agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 26:

Mr Chairman, clause 26(1)(a) is unclear, because it refers to an “infected or contaminated animal or thing”. According to the definition a “contaminated thing” already includes an animal. In the English text of the Bill the expression “infected thing”, which is also defined in clause 1, is used. In the aforementioned paragraph, however, reference is made to “infected animal or thing” which creates a further problem of interpretation. In order to eliminate this confusion, I therefore move the amendment printed in my name on the Order Paper as follows:

1. 1. On page 45, in line 61, to omit “infected or contaminated animal or” and to substitute “infectious or contaminated”.

Mr Chairman, I accept this amendment. This is yet again only necessary because the wrong word slipped in and this has to be corrected.

Amendment 1 agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 32:

Mr Chairman, the provisions of clause 32(1)(o)(ii) create the presumption that the provisions of an animal health scheme will apply to the legal successor to any person who is, in terms of such a scheme, enrolled as a participant. Let me just mention that the hon member for Mooi River asked me why I had an amendment in this regard on the Order Paper. I should now like to explain to the hon member for Mooi River why I want to move an amendment. I am sorry that the hon member is not here at the moment. Participation in such a scheme is voluntary, except in certain areas where the provisions are made applicable to all owners of the relevant type of animal in terms of clause 10(2)(u). In view of the financial implications of participation in such a scheme for the participant, in other areas the choice to participate must be left to the owner. It is therefore inappropriate to create such an impression. The amendment I shall be moving, namely that clause 32(1)(o)(i) be deleted, will prevent such an impression being gained. Clause 32(1)(o)(ii) reads as follows:

This scheme is a voluntary scheme. Clause 32(1)(r)(ii) reads as follows:

In terms of my amendment, in one case we are binding the legal successor, whilst in the other we are not. The reason for this is simple. In cases where a father, for example, participates voluntarily in a scheme, I do not think it is fair for us not to give his son, his legal successor, the same choice the father had. I think it is wrong for us to force the decisions of the parents onto their children. If the hon member for Mooi River had been here now, I could have told him that I merely felt that this was fairer. I simply felt that it would not be fair to bind a child to the decisions his father took. He should be able to take his own decisions.

In the case of an order, this is another matter. The order is valid for that scheme. Everyone has to comply with it, and in that case the legal successor therefore has no choice. But in the case of a voluntary scheme I felt we should give the participant a choice.

For that reason I move the amendments printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

1. 1. On page 51, in line 44, to omit “(i)”.
2. 2. On page 51, in line 46, to omit all the words after “therewith;” to the end of the paragraph.

Amendments 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Mr Speaker, I move:

The National Building Regulations and Building Standards Act—I shall subsequently refer to this as the “principal Act”—was passed by Parliament during 1977, but pending the regulations which are being drafted in terms of the Act, this measure has not yet been put into operation.

The proposed amendments to the principal Act are connected with the consolidation and modernization of the Standards Act which was piloted through Parliament during the 1982 session.

The envisaged amendments are primarily of three kinds. It is the intention, firstly, to bring the Act into line with the Standards Act, 1982; secondly, to delete all references to the territory of South West Africa wherever they occur in the principal Act; and thirdly, to modify certain obsolete and outdated terminology.

The most important amendment is the one in clause 4(b) to amend section 17(6) of the principal Act. With the commencement of the Standards Act, 1982 (Act 30 of 1982) on 1 May 1982, section 17(6) not only became unnecessary, but its wording became contrary to the wording of section 33 of the Standards Act.

Section 17(6) of the principal Act became unnecessary because section 33 of the Standards Act made comprehensive provision for all matters pertaining to the incorporation, by reference in legislation, of provisions of codes of practice, specifications, standard specifications or standard methods published in the Gazette. In all cases the incorporation may take place by reference to an abbreviated notice containing the scope and tenor of such notice.

†The two sections are contradictory, as the publication in the Gazette of the abbreviated notice in terms of section 17(6) of the principal Act with a view to incorporating a specification, standard specification, code of practice or standard method as part of a national building regulation, can only be done with the consent of the Minister, whereas section 33 of the Standards Act makes no mention of the Minister’s consent.

In order to maintain the principle of incorporation in directives by reference, it is proposed in the Bill that section 17(6) be substituted by a subsection providing for the incorporation of any provision of a specification, etc, in a directive by mere reference, and that the provisions of section 33 of the Standards Act, 1982, shall mutatis mutandis apply in respect of such an incorporation as if it were an incorporation in a law. In this manner the contradiction between these two sections is eliminated.

I also wish to comment briefly on the proposed building regulatons. The committee appointed to draft these regulations has an enormous and formidable task. I am, however, pleased to announce that it is expected that these regulations will become available during the second half of this year. These regulations, together with the principal Act, will provide in a long-felt need in the building industry and help to achieve the necessary building standards that have been envisaged since 1977 when this Act was first discussed in Parliament.

As I have said, the Bill before the House only updates the principal Act and brings its provisions into line with those of the Standards Act, 1982.

Mr Speaker, on behalf of the PFP I should like to support this statutory amendment. The exclusion of South West Africa from the provisions of the Act is in my opinion another indication that the relationship between the Republic of South Africa and South West Africa is now approaching the end of an era, namely the era in which South West Africa has been seen and administered as a province rather than as a mandated territory which would sooner or later become independent.

Nevertheless the 1977 Act, ie the principal Act, as well as the technical improvement in clause 4(b), are good measures for any authorities to have on a Statute Book. Although South West Africa is now being exempted from statutory enforcement from the Republic, I am convinced that the Administrator-General would only be doing the Administration of South West Africa a favour if he did use his powers to promulgate this legislation in that territory as well.

I have already referred to the technical improvements in clause 4, of which we approve. The same applies to the amendments in clauses 1, 2 and 3 which are consequential amendments, and also clauses 5 and 6 which are adjustments to the new designations of departments.

We support the Bill.

Mr Speaker, I want to join the hon member for Greytown in supporting the Second Reading of this Bill. The principal Act was comprehensively debated in this House in 1977 and there is really nothing which one can add. This Bill merely seeks to bring the principal Act into line with the Standards Act, as the hon the Deputy Minister rightly said, to delete certain references to South West Africa and to delete or change certain obsolete and outdated terminology. For example the reference to “Minister of Economic Affairs” is being substituted by “Minister of Industries, Commerce and Tourism”. In addition the reference to “Minister of Police” is being substituted by “Minister of Law and Order”, etc.

The principal amendment which is being effected to the principal Act relates to section 17. That section is the heart of the principal Act. It is the clause which empowers the Minister, on the recommendation of the council of the SABS, to introduce compulsory national building regulations containing minimum health, safety and building standards.

Since the passing of the principal Act in 1977, that is to say seven years ago, a committee has been extremely hard at work drafting standard national building regulations. It will only be possible to put the Act into operation when these regulations have been finalized. The hon the Deputy Minister indicated that this may happen during the second semester of this year.

The position at present is that we have a set of voluntary regulations drawn up by the SABS. In addition there is also a set of standards prescribed by the SABS and the National Building Research Institute of the CSIR. However, these are voluntary standards.

In brief, the putting into operation of the principal Act will constitute certain advantages: It will, firstly, have economic advantages because in effect it is anti-inflationary. Furthermore, the standard of construction work in this country will be improved. Local authorities will also be able to ensure that buildings constructed within their local community will redound to the credit of the community.

By virtue of my training as a civil engineer I have had a great deal to do with building regulations and building standards and consequently I know precisely how complicated and extremely detailed such a set of regulations are. They are not extremely difficult, but do contain a great many details.

Earlier this year there was a correspondence in Die Burger about building regulations. An inhabitant of Brackenfell objected to the fact that the local authority in question had prohibited him from making extensions to his garage with cement bricks. The town clerk of Brackenfell argued in Die Burger of 26 January that the depreciation of a clay brick building was considerably less than that of a cement brick building and that it therefore safeguarded the investment of the owner and the tax revenue of the local authority. A lecturer in civil engineering at the University of Stellenbosch then replied as follows in Die Burger of 6 February:

Subsequently, on 7 February, a person from Vredendal wrote that there were no clay bricks available in that area and that they were compelled to make use of cement bricks. He wrote that from Vredendal right up to South West Africa only cement bricks were used for building purposes.

At a later date, on 9 February, the chairman of the Concrete Masonry Association wrote that as far as strength was concerned there was no difference between cement bricks and clay bricks. As far as quality was concerned, he said that the quality of cement bricks could vary to the same extent as that of clay bricks, but that suppliers of good standing were working on the problem. As far as contraction was concerned—a great deal of the controversy centred around this aspect—he said that cement bricks were more inclined to contract, while clay bricks, on the other hand were inclined to expand.

If one reads a correspondence of this nature—and it occurs from time to time— one sees what a need exists for standard building regulations.

Mr Speaker, it is clear that as far as this statutory amendment is concerned, there are three matters which are receiving the attention of this House. The first aspect is that of certain terminology which has become obsolete and which has to be updated and certain definitions, and particularly designations of departments, which have to be adjusted. As far as this matter is concerned, we have no problem.

A second matter of importance is that the name of South West Africa as a territory is now being deleted in this legislation. The South West African issue is extremely sensitive at this stage, and consequently I do not think we ought to say much about it. I shall therefore say nothing further about this matter, except that we support the amendment.

The third important aspect in the Bill, as has already been mentioned, is the fact that section 17(6) of the principal Act is being brought into line with the Standards Act of 1982. Not one of the parties here had any problems in 1982 with the provisions of the Standards Act, and it therefore goes without saying that when the two pieces of legislation are brought into line, that should not prevent any problems either.

We on this side of the House are therefore pleased to support this Bill.

Mr Speaker, I cannot but agree with other hon members who have already participated in the debate that most of the amendments proposed are of a cosmetic nature, inter alia to update the designations of departments. However, there are a few amendments which refer specifically to the economy of the country and the improvement of building regulations, and I should like to discuss one or two aspects in connection with these.

I believe it is necessary for us to determine a course now as far as our building regulations are concerned. As the hon member for Pretoria East said, it is essential for building standards to be standardized throughout the country and that the necessary standards should be applied, but on the other hand the standards set should not be too high. While I was researching the legislation I came across two aspects to which, I think, the hon the Deputy Minister will have to give attention in future, although this has nothing to do with building regulations. However, I think that we cannot avoid the fact that demands are being made on us in respect of buildings to which we shall have to give attention.

I am referring to the recent Shell awards made by the SABS. This year three awards were made to manufacturers of products which are used in buildings, and consequently I find it a pity that it is not stipulated anywhere in the building regulations that more use should be made of these products. I am referring in the first place to one of the products described in the journal of the Design Institute—Brief—of the SABS. This is a product designed to be used in the flushing systems in toilets, with the object of saving water. It is therefore a pity that provision is not being made, in some way or another, in this Bill or in the regulations for the optimum utilization of water in buildings. I realize that this cannot now be inserted into the regulations, but I should nevertheless like to suggest that the hon the Deputy Minister give attention to this aspect. An enormous quantity of water is being consumed, particularly in large buildings, and if one can save water by installing only the best products in such a building, the country as a whole will benefit.

Two other products which were introduced in this brochure were concerned with the heating of water and the quantity of water used in wash-hand basins, and I am sorry that this is not covered anywhere in the provisions of the legislation. While we are discussing this legislation I therefore suggest that the department of the hon the Deputy Minister should give attention to these aspects at some stage or other, because I think that they ought to be covered somewhere in the building regulations. However, I support the legislation.

Mr Speaker, I merely rise to indicate that we in the NRP will be supporting this Bill. I do not intend to elaborate on the provisions of the Bill because that has already been done very competently and adequately by previous speakers.

I should, however, like to refer to a portion of the hon the Deputy Miniter’s Second Reading speech, and also to what the hon member for Boksburg had to say with regard to recommending that various ideas or provisions should be written into the applicable standards. The hon the Deputy Minister said that the committee that was appointed to draft these standards was working hard on it and that the standards were expected to become available during the second half of this year. We also added that these regulations would fulfill a long left need in the building industry. We do agree with him in this respect. We agree that these standards are required and that there has been a very long felt need, especially in respect of materials, their sizes and quality, etc.

I was also very interested to hear what the hon member for Pretoria East had to say regarding the comparisons between baked bricks and cement bricks. The concern we have is this. These standards that are going to be set will, I imagine, be minimum standards, which, in the wisdom of the hon the Deputy Minister and the department, are required to be set in order to, as has been said, achieve certain criteria, such as safety, weatherproofing, etc. With that we do go along. There is, however, a certain danger. We do in fact find that the standards that have been set by certain local authorities in our country are very high.

Too high.

The hon member for South Coast says they are too high. In some cases, I believe, they are too high. I do agree with the hon member in this regard. This is exactly the point I wish to make.

Looking in the Government’s own newspaper for March this year one finds an article which has the following headline: “Standard of housing is too high.” This refers to a statement made by the hon the Minister of Finance.

Of course, Mr Speaker, I am the first one to acknowledge that the hon the Minister of Finance was referring here primarily to the architectural standards of houses built. We know that many people are insisting today on two bathrooms, fully equipped kitchens, etc. Possibly these standards are too high. I am therefore inclined to agree with the hon the Minister of Finance, particularly in respect of the financial aspects of the building of accommodation. These standards are too high and the interest people have to pay on mortgage bonds is also too high.

There is, however, another aspect of housing which I should like to draw to the attention of the hon the Deputy Minister. That is that possibly the building standards of local authorities are too high. Something which, in this particular case, could be regarded to be a fault is the fact that we in South Africa like to produce things of a high quality or a high standard. This is, of course, not in all instances to be regarded as a fault. I do however, sometimes have the feeling that we are inclined to overdo things. We are inclined to set too high a standard in certain respects, with the result that we could be over-valuing certain aspects of our life to the extent that they do not fit into the correct niche in which they should as far as our economy as a whole is concerned. I stress again that there are some local authorities that may for instance insist that internal walls should be 4,5 inches thick instead of perhaps three inches. If they were three inches thick the builder could make some economy by using the normal brick on edge instead of on the flat. Some local authorities again insist that there should be fanlights above internal doors, etc. These all add to the costs of building these houses.

When one considers the immense shortage of housing which we have in South Africa today, especially for the lower income groups, I wonder whether many of the standards that are set by local authorities are not too high. I am sure that many hon members, including the hon the Deputy Minister, have travelled overseas and looked at housing in other countries. Over the past few years I have had the opportunity to do a fair amount of travelling in various countries of the world. In July of last year I was in Nova Scotia in Canada and I had occasion to hire a car and spend three days touring the country. My impressions of that tour are that the standard of our housing in this country, even of our low-income housing, is far in excess of the standard of housing I saw in Nova Scotia.

Were they igloos?

No, it was not quite in the Artic Circle. These were houses in which working class people were living but they did not come anywhere near the standard that we require in South Africa. These were wooden frame houses. I examined the foundations on which they were built and so forth and I must say that when one considers that this is in a country where they experience extremes of climate, especially in winter, with tremendously low temperatures, I had the feeling that we were possibly over-designing many of our houses.

The appeal I want to make to the hon the Deputy Minister is that when this committee sits to draw up a schedule of standards, some comment should be made in regard to the level of the standards to be set by our local authorities. There should also be a re-examination of standards. Let me give an example which is possibly more architecture than building standards oriented. We know that there is a dire shortage of housing for aged people in South Africa yet we know the number of local authorities that insist that a housing unit should house only a single family. Not even what is called a “granny flat” is allowed. This is a little flatlet that can be built onto a house for use by the grandparents or a grandparent of that family. I know that when I was studying at university in Canada, many homes in the vicinity of the university had converted their basements. These were retired people who were perhaps living on pensions and they had converted their basements or a portion of their homes into student flats which meant that two families were, as it were, living in a single building. I know that this is an architectural standard but I do feel that the standards that are set in regard to the actual building materials and the sizes of walls and so forth and even the height that ceilings should be above the floor are excessive. I appeal to the hon the Deputy Minister to ask this committee to consider this aspect of the matter as well so that local authorities can be guided as to the standards they should set. I feel we should not be setting too high a standard at this stage of our history with the current shortage of capital and housing we are experiencing, particularly where we need so much low-cost housing. That is my appeal to the hon the Deputy Minister and, as I have already said, we will support this Bill.

Mr Speaker, in the first place I want to thank the hon member for Greytown for his support for this measure. I appreciate the contribution which the hon member made.

The hon member for Pretoria East spoke with exceptional knowledge of this subject here this afternoon, and I also want to thank him for the trouble he took. I should like to tell the hon member that it is the intention that the proposed regulations should be finalized as quickly as possible. Naturally I shall also convey the remarks of the hon member to the specific committee.

I also want to thank the hon member for Koedoespoort for the contribution which he made and the support which he gave this measure on behalf of his party.

The hon member for Boksburg touched on certain matters in his speech, particularly as far as certain products were concerned, such as the utilization of water in buildings and so on. I thank the hon member for his contribution and I shall also refer the facts he gave us to the committee responsible for the compilation of the regulations. I also took personal note of his observations in this regard.

†I also want to thank the hon member for Amanzimtoti who mentioned specifically the question of too high standards. I am sure the hon member will agree with me that to have unanimity in regard to reasonable and acceptable standards is no easy matter at all and this serves as an indication in regard to just how difficult the task of this committee under the chairmanship of Mr Pat Middle-cote is going to be in formulating these regulations.

I take note of the hon member’s suggestions and I shall pass them on to the committee as he expressed them this afternoon. I have sympathy for the sentiments of the hon member. Various disciplines are represented on the commitee, inter alia, I believe also the local authorities. They will therefore be able to make inputs to the commitee.

*I should like to thank the hon members for their contributions to the Bill.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Bill not committed.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr Speaker, I move:

This measure provides for various amendments to the Post Office Act, 1958, which have become necessary. The principal objectives of these amendments are: Firstly, to give the Post Office certain additional statutory powers, the most important of which is connected with the establishment of nursery schools for the benefit of the staff, the establishment of homes for the aged or needy persons formerly employed by the department or their widows, and the acquisition of shareholdings in private companies established by financial institutions in order to make automatic teller machines available for joint use by their various clients; and, secondly, to revise fundamentally the statutory position with regard to the Post Office Savings Bank in order to modernise it and to improve its functioning. Provision is also being made for a few other less important adjustments which I shall discuss briefly at a later stage.

The proposed additional power with regard to nursery schools is contained in the new paragraph (u) proposed by paragraph (b) of clause 2. Hon members will notice that the provision refers to the power to establish hostels, boarding-houses, nursery schools, recreation clubs, tea clubs, refreshment clubs, restaurants and libraries for the staff of the department, and I may just explain here, perhaps, that all the facilities mentioned here, except nursery schools, have been provided in terms of authorisations which existed in the past. Some of the facilities have been provided in terms of authorisations granted by the Treasury even before the Post Office became financially independent, and others were authorized as staff benefits by the Staff Management Board of the Post Office in terms of powers conferred by the Post Office Service Act, 1974. Apart from the question of the new power in respect of nursery schools which is being proposed, there was a lack of clarity with regard to some authorisations, and it is now being proposed, in the interest of administrative efficiency, that the financial authority of the Post Office should henceforth be able to authorize all the specified facilities without consulting the Staff Management Council.

As far as nursery schools are concerned, I believe hon members will agree that in a large organization such as the Post Office, in which married women constitute an indispensable and increasing part of the establishment, it is essential, in the interests of staff stability, that the establishment of suitable nursery schools be undertaken by the organization itself where circumstances require this. The first nursery school of this kind has been established in Pretoria in suitably situated departmental accommodation in the city.

The power to establish homes for the aged or needy persons formerly in the service of the department or their widows is also being proposed in clause 2. I believe it is appropriate that an organization as large as the Post Office should take care in this way of former members of staff who have in many cases rendered a lifetime of service in the Post Office. To begin with, a home is being envisaged on the radio station grounds of the Post Office at Derdepoort, and it will be more or less similar to the institutions of the SA Transport Services.

The final proposed addition to the empowering provisions to which I have referred is the one concerning shareholding in certain private companies. This is also contained in clause 2. The purpose of this provision is to authorize the Post Office to acquire a shareholding in companies established by banks and building societies in order to be able to share with one another the automatic teller machines and, at a later stage, other terminal equipment pertaining to the electronic money transfer systems. The possibilities in this direction have for some years been the subject of a thorough investigation by a steering committee on which 12 banks and building societies, as well as the Post Office, are represented. The idea is that the automatic teller machines belonging to the individual institutions will all be connected to a central computer by means of which any teller machine can be put through to the computer of the particular institution whose client is using the teller machine at any given moment. A company which, as controlling company, will own the central computer and related apparatus, as well as an operating company called Saswitch, to which the computer and apparatus will be made available to control the use of the system by the various institutions that are members of the operating company, was recently established. Pending statutory authorization to become a member, the Post Office is already sending a representative to the meetings of the board of directors of the operating company, at the invitation of the board. The proposed arrangement will be of great mutual benefit to the financial institutions and the Post Office, and will also promote the eventual establishment of a nationally integrated electronic money transfer system.

I come now to the second principal objective of the Bill, namely the revision of the statutory situation of the Post Office Savings Bank. As hon members know, great changes have taken place in banking in South Africa, and indeed in the world, during the last few years. The Post Office has already introduced the electronic savings account called Telebank in the Post Office Savings Bank, and it is essential that the Savings Bank should keep pace with any further developments which may be at hand, if it wishes to retain its popularity and continue to attract the funds which are indispensable to the development of the Post Office. A facility which is not offered at the moment, but which is being considered, is a transmission account similar to the one generally offered by the building societies and banks. For this, the Post Office needs new statutory powers. However, it seems to be desirable not to propose a statutory amendment which will only authorize the introduction of a transmission account, but rather to effect fundamental changes to the statutory provisions at this stage in order to provide the greater flexibility which the times require.

†At present the amounts and certificates the Post Office Savings Bank can offer, as also conditions relating to them, are laid down in the Post Office Act. Consequently any adjustment required necessitates an amendment to the Act, an amendment which must be dealt with in Parliament and which involves procedures and programmes that take time.

The position with regard to private institutions that accept deposits, such as banks and building societies, is that basic control over their activities is exercised by the Banks Act and by the Buildings Societies Acts but that details of matters such as the kind of deposits that are accepted, the accounts that may be held and the conditions to apply to the deposits and accounts are contained in the rules of the institutions themselves. Changes to the rules that are decided upon by the institutions, are controlled by and must be registered with the Registrar of Banks and the Registrar of Building Societies. It is considered that the Post Office Savings Bank should also be allowed to make the rules relating to such matters, subject, of course, to adequate legal control over the basic acitivities of the Post Office Savings Bank being provided for.

What is therefore being proposed in this Bill is that as regards the running of its affairs, the Post Office Savings Bank should be placed in a legal position comparable to that of private institutions that accept deposits. This is done by, firstly, making provision in clause 5 for the creation in the Post Office Act of a division of the Post Office under the designation “Post Office Savings Bank” that will be authorized to undertake the activities that are customary for financial institutions accepting deposits, subject to its being allowed to do this only in a manner laid down in the regulations; and, secondly, by arranging in clause 19 for all the matters for which the regulations may provide and to which the Post Office Savings Bank must confine its activities, being defined in detail in the Act. Although the Banks Act and the Building Societies Act do not apply to the Post Office Savings Bank, I am of the opinion that the control over the basic activities of the Post Office Savings Bank being introduced by the proposed provisions in the Post Office Act, together with other existing legal controls over the management of the Post Office to which the Post Office Savings Bank, as a division of the Post Office, will be subject to the same way as all the other divisions of the Post Office, will be no less comprehensive than the overall control over the private institutions that accept deposits.

An important aspect I must specifically mention is that the provisions of the regulations specifying the kinds of deposits that may be accepted, the accounts that may be operated, the conditions relating thereto and related matters, are being made subject in clause 19 to the concurrence of the Minister of Finance. This means that, whereas the rules of private institutions that accept deposits are subject to control by the Registrar of Banks and the Registrar of Building Societies, who for their part are subject to the overall authority of the Minister of Finance, the corresponding rules of the Post Office Savings Bank require the concurrence of the same overall authority. This will ensure that the good order that must be maintained by the private institutions will also have to be maintained by the Post Office Savings Bank.

The proposal that the business arrangements of the Post Office Savings Bank which I have enumerated, should be made in the regulations, has the effect that the sections of the Post Office Act by which these matters have been regulated until now, must be repealed. The details, adapted as may be desirable, appearing in the relative sections of the Act concerning the designations of and the conditions applying to the existing kinds of deposits and accounts and such like matters, will consequently now be taken up in the regulations together with such definitions as may be necessary, and also, if it should be finally decided to introduce transmission accounts, details of those accounts. The existing provisions in the relative sections of the Act concerning, for example, the times and manner of payment of interest, will also be replaced by new regulations, which may make provision for adaptations found desirable with a view to improving the Post Office Savings Bank’s competitive position in the market.

There are a few adjustments of minor importance, which I referred to earlier, that are being effected to the Post Office Act by the Bill. Firstly, clause 2(c) amends the sub-section which stipulates that an ex gratia payment, remission or gift of money must be individually appropriated beforehand by Parliament in any case where the amount involved exceeds R10 000. It is now proposed that this amount be increased to R25 000. All cases of this nature, regardless of the amounts involved, must, however, still be reported to the Auditor-General in terms of standing requirements.

A further adjustment is the repeal of the provisions in the Post Office Act relating to the registration of newspapers. The arrangement whereby newspapers were transmitted through the post at a special publishers’ tariff, for which purpose publications had to be registered as newspapers at the Post Office, lapsed at the end of last year, together with the special publishers’ tariff. That tariff was gradually phased out from the beginning of 1981, and from 1 January this year the postage on newspapers, including rebates for bulk posting, is the same as that applicable to other non-standardized mail articles.

Finally, the provisions of the Act dealing with the maximum amount which a person may invest in National Savings Certificates are being amended by clause 16 in order to bring them into line with an amendment effected to the Income Tax Act in 1982. That amendment entails that the income tax exemption on interest earned from investments in the 10th (current) and future series of National Savings Certificates is applied per taxpayer and not per single person, as was the case with previous series.

I believe that I have given hon members a comprehensive summary of what is proposed in the legislation. Further details of the measure can be dealt with if necessary more appropriately in the Committee Stage.

Mr Speaker, we on this side of the House will be supporting this Bill because it brings about certain improvements to the Act which we regard as necessary. This is particularly the case with the automatic teller machines which have been installed by the Post Office. I will refer to this later. Secondly, this legislation improves the conditions of service of postal employees in providing for better working facilities and better home facilities after they have retired from service. The Post Office employees can feel that they are being well looked after by the Post Office.

At this stage I will resist the temptation to deal with other aspects which could be dealt with at the Second Reading for the simple reason that there will be ample opportunity to do so later this week when discussing the Post Office Appropriation Bill. We will therefore confine ourselves mainly to this Bill today.

One of the fundamental changes that is being brought about by this amending legislation regards the automatic teller machines. Clause 1 of the Bill provides for the deletion of quite a few definitions. However, they are not being removed permanently as they will be incorporated by regulation. The main emphasis is to remove what has been contained in the Act and as such necessitated amendments which had to be approved by Parliament from time to time and embody it in regulation. One can accept that if we go ahead with the principle of establishing Telebanks, that it is necessary for the Post Office to match the automatic machines which are operated by the banks and building societies.

The hon the Minister mentioned that there are some 12 associations and it is necessary for us to associate ourselves with them officially. I understand that until now we have done so unofficially—not that it was illegal—because we did not have the power to do so. At the same time the Post Office has joined the organization known as Saswitch so that we can maintain and always reap the benefit of our association with these people and interlock our transfer of accounts and our teller machines with them so that we have a good relationship and provided a better service for the public of South Africa.

The Telebank itself has made substantial progress. In the latest report of the Postmaster-General it is mentioned that since November 1982 some 4 800 accounts have been opened and since that date many more have no doubt been opened. These facilities are available at 152 different counters of the Post Office and there are 18 automatic machines which can match those of commercial banks and building societies. People therefore have the oportunity to draw or deposit cash on these machines as this seems to be the trend.

A further clause proposes that the age group of people using this facility be restricted. The Post Office has always allowed persons from the age of seven to 21 to deposit or draw money, although they are minors according to the law. This is something we should always encourage because thrift is a good thing. It is a good idea to make children conscious of the idea to save money, although some people would not think so today. It is necessary to match the credit card system and the automatic machine system of the banks and building societies. I believe that the banks do not grant this to people under the age of 16 years. The hon the Miniter will need to determine the age limit under which people will not be able to attain these cards for the Telebanks. We will support the idea in principle. I think that a responsible child of 12, if given the code number, as I think a lot of people are doing at the moment with their automatic cards, can operate that machine very easily. When one sees the type of little machines that are being operated by children in this computer age, one is amazed at their ability to instruct themselves on how to use these computers. So, it may just be academic. Nevertheless, we will support the idea that it should be pegged on that basis.

That being so, we find that it is also necessary for the general powers of the Postmaster-General, which are mentioned specifically in clause 2, to be amended to make provision for the fact that the Telebank is to be established. As regards the facilities for employees, there is a Post Office Service Act and these facilities are mentioned there. Although the fact that paragraph (u) is being added appears to indicate that it is all new, that is not the case. In fact, I think it is really the establishment of nursery schools that is a new facility which has not been regulated before. Obviously, if we want to attract women, married women, with children to the service, there should be a place where their children can be looked after. If I am not mistaken, one has already been established in Pretoria. It is therefore obviously our duty to legalize it. That we will certainly do and we welcome the establishment of nursery schools.

As regards becoming a shareholder in Saswitch, as I mentioned a moment ago, the second part of the amendment to section 2B is necessary. In terms of that we as shareholders can then play our full role.

As far as the gifts are concerned, the relevant amount is being increased from R10 000 to R25 000. I do not imagine that there will be too many opportunities for us to make gifts of up to R25 000, but I suppose that, with the type of détente we have today and the countries we are meeting and making friends with, obviously such gifts will be forthcoming from time to time. In any event, Parliament must be notified of such gifts at a later stage.

Clause 3 deals with the newspapers. The relevant provision has been phased out over a period up to the end of last year. Therefore, the previous provision that newspapers had to be registered falls away and newspapers are now treated like any other standardized mail, subject to the rebates which apply.

The most important clause is clause 5 which concerns the establishment of a new division within the Post Office, namely the Post Office Savings Bank. This clause regulates the interest on deposits which must be determined by the Minister from time to time. As far as this interest rate is concerned, a lot could be said about it. I think the Post Office does provide good interest rates. We are all familiar with a recent publication of the Post Office on this subject. What is particularly attractive to depositors today is the fact that these are tax-free investments. The very wealthy investor also welcomes this. My only criticism is that the highest rate is 9,75%. With regard to those people who are not in the very high bracket as far as taxation is concerned, I may mention that this rate is now below the rate of inflation which is, I think, running at about 10,9%. Let us at least not be accused of ripping off the public as we were in Sunday newspapers a little while ago. I urge that we should match the rate of inflation so that the investor will not in fact get less than the rate of inflation.

I accept that the control is through the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications and the Minister of Finance. I think it should be emphasized that we are not placed in any different position to that in which other institutions are placed, for example the banks and building societies, who require the consent of the Registrar of Financial Institutions who, in turn, requires the consent of the Minister of Finance. So, basically this finally rests with the Minister of Finance in both cases, although in this case it works through the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications. There will, therefore, be some parity in the provisions relating to interest, investments, deposits, etc. We encourage investment in the Post Office because it is so important for the Post Office to be in a position to fund its own capital expenditure in accordance with the formula with which we are all fully acquainted. At the same time it is necessary to state that I do not believe that the Post Office is competing to any large extent with the institutions to which I have just referred for the reason, I believe, that the Post Office is pegged to something like 5% of the total moneys that are deposited. I do not think we have gone more than 3,4% or 3,5%. We are therefore well under that.

As far as the National Saving Certificates are concerned as referred to in clause 7, again it is a question of provision that must be made for the payment to children so that they are not prejudiced in any way in receiving their money, and also that married women are not in any way prejudiced when payment has to be made to them.

Clause 13 deals with the aspect of secrecy. This remains. Trustees, those involved in deceased estates, and people appointed as curators in cases of insanity, will still enjoy that secrecy.

Clause 16 deals with the maximum amount that can be deposited in National Savings Certificates. This has been limited to R30 000 per taxpayer as opposed to per person. I do not think this hon Minister has any say in this matter. This is controlled by the Minister of Finance. My only appeal to the hon the Minister of Post and Telecommunications is for him to appeal to the Minister of Finance not to vary these things so often. People make investments over a period, and I think they are entitled to believe that they have an investment for that specific period. When that is changed during the period of investment I think it is bad for goodwill and for retaining the confidence of people. One example is the revolving fund, where people save for something like five years by regularly saving a fixed amount and where after six years, after receiving one year’s interest repayment, their money is paid out. So I do not think this is the best way to go about it.

Clause 19 deals with the regulations regarding the Post Office Saving Bank. These regulations have been reframed. As far as I can see it is only paragraphs (e) and (f) of the proposed new section that are new. Paragraph (e) reads as follows:

I am not sure whether we can implement this at this stage. Perhaps the hon the Minister can tell us. I think this is a provision for the future. When and if we do reach the stage where deposits can be transferred freely from, say, Telebank to a commercial bank or a building society, or where payments can be made through Telebank on a building society bond, or where payments can be made for pensions, then this could be done at a later stage. I do not think it is on at the moment.

The other new provision is paragraph (f), which reads as follows:

Here again I think we are very much in the hands of the Minister of Finance with regard to the minimum deposit that must be made.

I have already mentioned clause 20, namely the provision dealing with persons between the ages of 7 and 21 years. We should encourage this.

Sir, I have referred to the main provision of the Bill before us. We do not have any difficulty with them. Although a lot more can and may be said during the coming week we will confine ourselves at the moment to a discussion on this basis.

Mr Speaker, we on this side of the House are grateful to the hon member for Hillbrow that the official Opposition sees its way clear to supporting this—in our opinion essential— measure. We are gratified that we and the official Opposition adopt the same standpoint on principle, viz that the Post Office should be run as a business enterprise. In our Post Office set-up there can be no question of State subsidies for the Post Office administration. Its revenue must be sufficient to cover its expenditure. It must obtain loan funds to cover such capital requirements as it is unable to provide from its own revenue. However, it is also important to bear in mind, particularly in these days of modern equipment, that the Post Office cannot perform its task in isolation. Particularly in its role as a mobilizer of the savings funds of the public it has to compete with several other financial institutions, the most important of which are banks and building societies. Therefore, in order to be competitive the Post Office must at all times keep abreast of innovations in this rapidly changing field. Moreover it has to acquire staff and retain that staff and if, therefore, the private sector is able to provide its employees with specific housing and other service benefits then the Post Office must be in a position to attract the best staff by also being able to offer the best benefits.

With a view to the above it is necessary that the Post Office legislation should not place it in a weaker position than other financial institutions. It would be wrong to expect the Post Office to compete with other financial institutions while at the same time expecting it to be shackled by its regulating legislation. This would mean that it compare poorly with its competitors. Therefore, in the light of the above, there are three objectives in particular that this legislation seeks to achieve. The first is to grant the Post Office wider powers in conducting its affairs; the second to give it more elbow room in adapting to the market and the third to delete superfluous and obsolete measures from the existing Act. The more extensive powers being vested in the Post Office by this legislation are for the most part embodied in clause 2. Clause 2(a) is necessary to enable the Post Office to share terminals with other bodies, eg in shops and at other places. Clause 2(b) concerns assistance to hostels, boarding-houses, tea clubs, restaurants and other places where Post Office staff are employed or trained. The service benefits referred to here have thus far been dealt with by the Staff Management Board under the Post Office Service Act of 1974, but, as the hon the Minister said, there was a lack of clarity in certain respect and these are now being eliminated by the legislation. In terms of clause 2(b)(v) the Post Office is empowered to build old-age homes for its former staff. All these are aspects that make service in the Post Office more attractive to prospective employees. In clause 2(b)(w), a shareholding in companies concerning which negotiation is at present under way, is authorized. Other hon members on this side of the House will elaborate on those negotiations and accordingly I shall only say that this is one of the powers that is being extended by this legislation.

The hon member for Hillbrow has already pointed out that the amount of R10 000 in respect of remissions, payments, refunds or gifts in clause 2(c) is now being increased to R25 000. This, too, is a small additional power being vested in the Post Office. This has to do with depreciation of money since the provision was originally inserted.

The second objective, as I have already mentioned, is to give the Post Office more elbow room. As far as the Post Office Savings Bank is concerned, the existing legislation contains far too many detailed provisions. There are far too many provisions relating to minor details, too many to enable the Post Office to sustain its competitive position in the market. Not only are the kinds of deposits that may be accepted, stipulated in detail in the existing Act; it also follows from this that every new concept, eg the creation of transmission accounts and credit transfers, always requires a statutory amendment. Even the times and methods of interest calculation and interest payments are specified in this legislation.

In the private sector every company has its memorandum of association, and in addition to that there is legislation, eg the Banks Act or the Building Societies Act, in terms of which the company’s overall field of operation is determined. However, its rules and its policy are not embodied in legislation. As far as that is concerned it has more elbow room. In terms of clause 5 and 19 of this Bill the Post Office will in future have its area of operations defined, as does a company in accordance with its memorandum of association, but then futher rules will be specified by way of regulation which will enable the Post Office to react to changes and adjustments in the money market in general in the course of the year, when Parliament is not in session and the Act cannot, therefore, be amended.

This, of course, certainly does not mean that the Post Office will simply be able to do as it likes. Apart from the fact that the sphere of operations it has to confine itself to as far as savings are concerned—a provision which is being retained in the legislation—is defined, there is also the provisions in terms of clause 19 to the effect that the Minister of Finance will at all times exercise a supervisory role in regard to matters of this nature. Therefore there is no question of the Post Office either being able to go its own way or being unfairly benefited in comparison with other financial institutions. Nor, on the other hand, would it be wise to advance the argument that the regulations should at all times be under the supervision of Parliament. To set such a requirement would limit the very elbow room that we are trying to expand to way of this measure. Moreover it would be impracticable, because many of the regulations which are still being formulated depend on the course of the negotiations to which I have already referred.

The third aim of the legislation is that provisions which are, quite simply, superfluous are being deleted. Reference has already been made to the provisions in clauses 3 and 4 relating to the different treatment of newspapers and the postage applicable to them. That dispensation for newspapers is no more. It is already something of the past, and therefore the relevant statutory provision must be deleted. The other provisions in clauses 6 and 8 concerning who may invest in the Post Office Savings Bank, the times of interest calculation, the repayment of deposits—which is specified in section 9 of the principal Act—and deposits by trustees, etc. are matters arising out of the decision to change the whole approach to the Post Office Savings Bank.

We believe that the three objectives embodied in this legislation are effectively achieved by this Bill. We believe that at a time when the Post Office must at all times be competing with a dynamic and changing money market it is essential that this legislation be promulgated as soon as possible. Therefore it gives us great pleasure to support the measure.

Mr Speaker, we on this side of the House support the Bill under discussion.

Oh!

Yes, the hon member for Welkom need not be so surprised. When a measure is a good one, we shall always support it. However, when we do not agree with a measure, we shall also say so. The hon member for Welkom need therefore not look so surprised. [Interjections.] I repeat: When it is a good Bill, as is the case here, we shall support it. This Bill is also in the interests of the staff of the Post Office in general and, of course, in the interests of the widows of deceased staff members.

It is also a good thing to consider hostels, tea clubs, refreshment clubs, restaurants and libraries. I shall refer to this again later. It is commendable to give assistance, even as regards these matters, and we are therefore gratified that this is being laid down in legislation. We are also extremely grateful that the aged and needy people in the service of the Post Office are being considered, as are the widows of deceased members of staff, as I have already mentioned. As regards the provision of housing, we also think this is commendable. It is a good thing that the staff is being considered, because without good staff no undertaking, including the Post Office, can benefit under any circumstances. We know that it is worth while to think of the Post Office staff and that is why we are glad that they are not being overlooked in this regard.

We are also grateful that provision is being made for nursery schools, particularly in the case of children of married women working for the Post Office. We should also like to pay tribute here to the many thousands of women in the service of the Post Office throughout South Africa. These women do wonderful work, and it is a good thing that they are able to do that work. Particularly in the present difficult economic conditions it is unfortunate that in many cases women have to assist their husbands in order to make ends meet, and this makes it easier for them to make a contribution in this regard.

We also like the idea of recreation clubs because we know that in this regard, and in regard to restaurants, particularly in the large cities and towns, it would be a good thing if such facilities could be established in buildings. This is the case because we know that nowadays parking is a tremendous problem in our large cities and towns, and that to an increasing extent staff will have to walk to their destinations, particularly in a short period of an hour or when a motor-car can hardly be used because, as I have already said, parking is becoming a real problem. We are also glad about this concession.

We are also glad that the name of the Post Office Savings Bank is being given added significance and that it will become far more important after this Bill has been passed. The revision of the legal set-up is both important and essential. The Post Office Savings Bank is usually the first way of saving that young people make use of. Before they think of opening a bank account, they may think of investing their money in the Post Office Savings Bank. This is the easiest and most readily accessible investment, as well as the most well-known means of investment one can use. We are therefore glad that this is going to be done. We also support the hon the Minister’s suggestion that transmission accounts should be made possible in this regard, and the idea of improving the competitive position of the Post Office Savings Bank should have been introduced long ago. We are therefore glad that this is also being done.

The increase in the ex gratia payment, donation or remission from R10 000 to R25 000 is appreciated, particularly when one considers to what extent the buying power of money is diminishing these days. We hope that it will not diminish much to a level which would necessitate our having to increase this amount again. If it is essential to increase it in future then the hon the Minister will have no choice. However, we hope that as far as the financial position of our country is concerned, the buying power of the rand will not diminish any further.

As far as shareholding in private companies is concerned, where the Post Office, together with other companies, will be connected to a combined computer, we like this idea very much. It is usually the case that many private undertakings—it does not matter what undertakings they are—who are on an equal footing each want to do their own business separately. If people can work together and this means collective co-operation and these people can use one computer system, we are in favour of it. Computer Systems are expensive, but when the overhead costs can be shared by the various organizations, which in this case will be banking institutions, it means that each institution will have to pay less. This will also mean that the Post Office will have to pay less than it would have paid if it had decided to establish its own computer system. I therefore support the idea that the Post Office Savings Bank will share that system, which is known as Saswitch. I think the idea behind it is sound.

In general we support the Bill from clause 1 right through to the final clause. We believe that it is a great improvement on the existing legislation. It is also a great improvement because certain provisions are being deleted by the Bill.

Mr Speaker, we are grateful that the hon members of the CP support the Bill. There were various things the hon member for Nigel said with which one could agree. Basically I should also like to touch on a few matters.

I consider it important that the Bill is making provision for the establishment of nursery schools for the children of Post Office staff. The peace of mind which this has to give the working mother is to be welcomed, because one is always concerned when one is dealing with sick children. We on this side of the House are therefore extremely grateful that the hon the Minister and the management team of the Post Office has included this aspect in the legislation. This is particularly important in view of the fact that working mothers frequently have to take decisions when their children are not feeling well; not ill enough to be admitted to hospital, but not well either. One finds that in the case of the Post Office that mother also has to decide whether she will stay away from work and take care of the child. The establishment of nursery schools for the children of Post Office staff is therefore beneficial to the Post Office as well. I think this is pioneering work which the Post Office is undertaking, pioneering work which several other Government departments and organizations would do well to emulate.

By establishing such nursery schools I believe that there will be less tension in families, because it must be very difficult to live with the tension which one feels when one’s children are ill and it is difficult to take care of them oneself or if one has to leave one’s children in the care of other people. That is why I believe this is an important contribution which will enable the Post Office to eliminate such marital tension.

By taking care of the quality of life of its workers in this way the Post Office is able to employ more assiduous employees. I therefore believe that as a result of this we can improve the quality of service provided by the Post Office to a large extent. One wants to express the hope that not only Government institutions but also the private sector will follow this example.

The establishment of homes for the elderly and needy staff of the Post Office or for widows of former staff members—in this regard I am thinking in particular of divorced women with children—is a commendable step which deserves both our praise and the praise of the country. It is frequently necessary to assist people who do not have a large income and are therefore dependant on others. We are therefore grateful that the Post Office as an employer is behaving in this way towards its employees.

Since the oil crisis hit the world, we have seen what inflation can do to people’s pensions, to people’s investments for their old age. We are therefore grateful that the hon the Minister and the Post Office management team are taking this step to take care of the aged, those people who served the Post Office extremely well for many years. We watched the Post Office grow into one of the finest institutions in the country. This was done with the assistance of these people who dedicated their lives to the task they were performing. That is why we believe it is a good thing that the Post Office should, in turn, think of them and take care of them now.

The statutory amendments proposed by the hon the Minister also provide for the establishment of hotels and boarding houses. This proves once again that the Government is well aware of the fact that it has to play a role in the provision of housing. In this way it is also encouraging other institutions to provide housing for their employees. By taking the lead in this way in accommodating its staff, the Post Office is setting an example which we hope other organizations will emulate. By providing accommodation, greater loyalty is being cultivated among Post Office employees. This is a way in which the Post Office can improve the quality of its service. Over the years we in this country have learnt that accommodation is one of the cornerstones of a successful business undertaking. In this connection one need only think of what the mining houses did in the years following the depression. By providing accommodation they attracted many of their workers, people who remained with them for many years and gave them very good service. That is why I believe that this is a step in the right direction. Because there was uncertainty in the past in connection with housing, one is grateful that this will now be eliminated.

The amendment in the Bill dealing with the modernizing of the functioning of the Post Office Savings Bank, is timeous and essential. I know that some of my colleagues will elaborate on this and we have also heard some of the Opposition members talk about this. We on this side of the House wholeheartedly support these steps.

The Post Office is part of the commercial sector and therefore has to keep pace with the world of commerce in this era of evolution. It should not prejudice itself by using outdated techniques and business methods. However, we believe that in this connection the Post Office will play its part. We believe that by taking this modem equipment into service it will be possible to supplement staff shortages and less space will therefore be required. Because one will require less space, this will lead to further savings.

During the discussion of the Additional Appropriation we heard about the steadily increasing popularity of Telebank, and for that reason we agree with the amendments moved by the hon the Minister in this connection. I do not think one can add much to what the hon the Minister said because he dealt with the entire subject thoroughly.

We also agree with the hon the Minister that newspapers should no longer be exempted and conveyed at a lower tariff than other postal items handled by the Post Office. In this regard the hon the Minister is keeping pace with the policy of the Government that we have to move away from subsidies, particularly subsidies to certain parts of the private sector. I want to thank the hon the Minister for the comprehensive survey he gave of the legislation.

The legislation has my wholehearted support.

Mr Speaker, the hon the Minister is having a good day. I hope that tomorrow will be as kind to him as today is.

That depends on the Minister himself.

Yes, that depends entirely on himself.

I want to congratulate the hon the Minister on a comprehensive Second Reading speech. It makes it much easier for us to understand legislation when a Minister explains an amending Bill in this way. Every proposed amendment was explained in the finest detail. Like other hon members we too welcome particularly the provisions for the improvement of staff conditions. It is a great sadness in this modern day and age that so many younger couples find themselves in the situation where they both have to work and that as a result of that the children suffer because they do not have the home life which possibly we as parents would like to give them. However, it is good to see that the Post Office is now going to be able to provide nursery school facilities for the working mother. This is tremendously important, because it is becoming a bit of a problem in our society today. It is good to know that our Post Office is going to keep pace with a situation which is not necesarily a desirable one, but is one which has been brought about by circumstances. It is also good to note that the Post Office is going to be able to establish recreation clubs and do the sort of thing that we have grown accustomed to see develop in the SA Transport Services and also, I might add, in the SA Police Force.

Shareholding in private companies is also a great improvement because in this age of the computer and the microchip it is tremendously important that the Post Office, which is after all the communications leader in South Africa, needs to keep abreast of the very latest developments in an industry which changes from day to day. It is said that politics can change in 10 minutes but believe you me the microchip and the computer industry is faster than that and the developments in this field are quite amazing.

It was quite remarkable to see a demonstration by the Department of Posts and Telecommunications across the way this morning—I would commend it to all hon members—to show how communications can be expanded through the use of computers and how we are presently able to operate into a central computer of one of our largest banking organizations in South Africa. A young man demonstrated this morning how he was able to effect a payment from his banking account to a commercial bank and how he was actually able to transfer money from one account to another. He had a savings account and a current account at his particular bank. This is what is coming and the time will come when Telebank will have to join hands with all these other bits of plastic money which are all part and parcel of our modern society. It is gratifying to see that the Post Office intends to keep abreast of these happenings and we support any move which makes it easier for them to do so.

As far as the Post Office Savings Bank is concerned, we particularly like the new definition. We naturally welcome the controls which are envisaged and we are happy to see that those controls will be similar to those pertaining to banks and other deposit-receiving institutions. It is also interesting to note that the final word will rest with the hon the Minister of Finance as it does with those other institutions.

The situation in respect of newspapers has been regularized and I think it is only right that the newpapers should be paying, as they have done since the beginning of this year, the non-standard bulk rates because after all is said and done I believe that this preferential treatment should have been done away with long ago. It is good to see that the regulations have now been amended to cope with the situation.

There are other minor amendments and those that are consequential to those that I have already mentioned but suffice it to say that we will always look forward to discussing with the hon the Minister—and any other hon Minister—legislation which comes before this House as well prepared, documented and presented as this particular piece of legislation.

Mr Speaker, I would like to thank the hon member for Umhlanga for his support of this legislation and I agree with him that the hon the Minister and his department have done very well. I hope that that will still be his opinion by the end of the week.

I attended a seminar the other day and there voices were raised for the privatization of the Post Office. I do not think one can think of a better testimonial for the Post Office than just that.

I would like to revert to a matter which was mentioned by the hon members for Hillbrow and Umhlanga, namely the use of plastic money. I have no doubt whatsoever that plastic money, as is the case in the USA and Europe, will be used in most deals in South Africa in the years to come.

*I should very much like to confine myself to the proposed new section 2B(1)(w). I specifically want to talk about this clause which makes special provision for the fact— the hon member for Umhlanga also referred to this—that the Post Office can acquire a shareholding in a company whose object it is to obtain an interest in an electronic network. The important amendment, as far as this specffic point is concerned, is that whilst in the past the Post Office could only obtain shares in a private company if it obtained a majority shareholding, the Minister will now also have the right to obtain an ordinary shareholding in such a company.

One of the modem developments in the financial sphere involves increasing mechanization and, in particular, the use of the plastic card by means of which people can easily invest money and withdraw it. I do not have the slightest doubt that very shortly in supermarkets, large hotels, even at airports and various public places, for example student centres, facilities will have to be created for people to be able to conduct such cash transactions with their plastic cards, specifically with their own bank, building society or the Post Office.

There is, however, a practical problem. If one had to install 12 of 13 different automatic teller machines at airports, one for each building society and bank, and also one for the Post Office, it would create an impossible situation. We in South Africa will therefore have to do what is already being done in Europe and the USA, and that is install a shared network so that the various institutions will, in fact, be sharing one another’s facilities. In this connection a group of financial institutions, in collaboration with the Post Office, has carried out a comprehensive study in the past few years with a view to the establishment of such a shared network. I think that each of us sitting here probably has some or other form of plastic card in his pocket. One can go into a shop and buy oneself a suit of clothes. After a month the relevant amount is debited to one’s account and one pays it by cheque. The next step—and this is already in operation—is that of taking that card to a automatic teller machine and drawing cash. The third step I find even more interesting, and that is that in future this shared network can serve as a basis for the further extension of a fully-fledged electronic money transfer network between the financial institutions and the wholesalers and retailers. Using that system, purchases can immediately be debited to a person’s account and one can immediately determine whether that person has sufficient credit in his account. With such a new card a person can therefore go to a shop to buy himself a new suit of clothes and place the card in the terminal, thus immediately debiting the cost of that suit of clothes to his account and crediting that amount to the shop’s account. Shops will also know immediately whether there is enough credit in the accounts.

All this can only be done, however, if there is a standardized system of application in which all the financial institutions participate. The investigation into the possible establishment of a joint network was not simply done by the banks or the financial institutions themselves. As I have said, the Post Office assisted them. The Bureau of Standards, the Department of Finance and even the Reserve Bank also assisted them because such a shared network was really thought to be in the interests of the whole national economy.

I now come to a very important point. In this connection I should very much like to call upon the hon the Minister for his assistance. It seems as if the financial institutions in the Republic cannot find common ground for the establishment of a shared network of automatic teller machines. The result is that two independent groups want to establish their own independent shared networks. Then the Department of Posts and Telecommunications would actually have no other option but to link up with both these shared networks. Each is now going ahead with the establishment of its own network. Previous speakers referred to the company known as Saswitch. That is the original group to which the Post Office and 10 or 11 of South Africa’s largest financial institutions, such as building societies and banks, belong. This group, as can also be deduced from the hon the Minister’s speech, has already made great strides with the establishment of such a shared network which will eventually include: A shared network of automatic teller machines; automatic credit card authorisation and a point-of-sale service. That is, in point of fact, the full range that can be offered today.

There is, however, also a second group that consists of two banks and one building society, together with the Post Office. The reason why this small group is apparently not prepared to fall in with the other group is because at the moment it does, in fact, have more automatic teller machines in operation. I do not have the least doubt that this is a short-term benefit and that in the long term—also in the interests of the country—it would be best if all were prepared to co-operate. The problem with two networks is that the Post Office would have to maintain both and that transfers would not be possible between financial institutions in one group and those in another. If I therefore took my plastic card to a machine which belongs to one group, I could not use that machine because it could not debit my account that is lodged with the other group. The Post Office, with its limited sources of capital and staff, will now have to gear itself to maintain the infrastructure for data lines and modems, and everything that goes hand in hand with that. That is going to cost a great deal of money. The question is whether it is worthwhile for the Post Office and whether the Post Office should not rather go it alone, which in any case would not be in the interests of the country either. I do not have the slightest doubt that the establishment of one common network would embody tremendous benefits for the country. I should like to mention six benefits.

Firstly, the Post Office, which already has a backlog in providing data networks, would be in a position to provide and maintain a better infrastructure. Secondly, the smaller financial institutions would be in a position to participate because it would be cheaper, as has already been mentioned. Thirdly, it would be possible to facilitate liaison with foreign data networks. Fourthly, in the long-term the linking-up with the wholesale and retail sectors would, in the long-term, bring about an improvement in standards, greater simplicity and a better service. A fifth benefit is that there would still be the very healthy competition that there has been in the past, even with everyone in one network. Lastly, with everyone together in one group, there would be better control and better standards for future monetary policy. I am a layman in this sphere, but if one goes into the matter ever so slightly, one sees its enormous potential. We have no other option but to take a serious look at the normalization and standardization of this situation, not only in the interests of the economy as a whole, but also in the interests of the overall national economy. I want to conclude by making a very serious plea to the hon the Minister, and that is that in the country’s interest, and in the light of the deadlock between the various financial institutions, he and the Post Office should take the lead as central co-ordinators amongst the financial leaders of industry to create the infrastructure and try—in a nice way—to have it accepted so that there will be only one shared network mechanism.

Mr Speaker, I listened with interest to the hon member for Paarl. He mentioned that at some private place the other day certain people wanted to buy the Post Office. As far as I am concerned I do not think they knew the facts of the case. If they wanted the Post Office, I am absolutely certain that the hon the Minister would gladly give it to them, provided that he could keep Telecommunications. However, I do not think that anybody there quite understood what they were really getting at, but that is a matter that we will discuss in more detail tomorrow.

I agree with what the hon member for Paarl said with regard to the whole question of the new banking system and the new method of the transmittal of accounts which this legislation will bring about. When we talk about banks and building societies however, I want to sound a word of warning that building societies are going to be phased out and that most of them are going to become part of banks. I think that the whole system of banking has become such the the Post Office is being left out in the cold. I believe that the time has come for the hon the Minister to ensure that some very smart people are appointed who have a sound knowledge of banking because banking is not what it used to be. I believe therefore that there should be highly specialized people who can introduce new methods of banking into the Post Office itself, and I want to ask the hon the Minister to ensure that this is done. For instance, it is perfectly true that one can invest money in the Post Office and get 9,75% interest tax free, but that affects different people in different ways depending upon their income. One of the problems that one does have with the Post Office savings account is that it is not inflation-proof. The small man requires one kind of inflation-proof investment while the rich man requires another kind, and it may be necessary to devise some type of savings account whereby a certain amount of interest is deducted and added to the account to increase the capital amount that the man has at the end of every year. In this way he will increase his initial capital. For example, if he invest R100 at the outset and the inflation rate is 10%, he will then have R110 at the end of the year; in other words, some form of indexing and in addition to that he will have his interest as well. I know that it is very difficult to index or to have some form of indexing account but I believe the time has come for the Post Office seriously to consider something like this. One of the problems of savings is that people often have less money after a number of years than they invested at the outset, and this applies particularly to people who have fixed incomes.

In regard to savings accounts, hon members have mentioned that thrift begins at home and in the schools. I believe that a system of savings that should be considered is the introduction something similar to the old Union Loan Certificates. However, one has to have an inducement to sell these certificates. Perhaps a certain amount of commission could be paid to each school—this could be added to their school funds—for selling these certificates. These are examples of the new forms of banking that the Post Office will have to consider. When one considers the actual amount that is invested in Post Office Savings Bank Certificates which, according to the annual report is a matter of R821 million, it is clear that many well-to-do people make use of this facility because the average per investor is R6 500 at the moment. However, the R821 million barely covers one year’s capital investment. It is all very well for the hon the Minister of Finance to turn around and tell the hon the Minister of Post and Telecommunications that he is only entitled to 5% of the total money supply of South Africa in one year, when, at this particular stage, the hon the Minister is spending a large proportion of that amount on capital development. Tomorrow hon members on this side of the House will talk about the question of the shortage of telephones etc. Unless one has the capital to buy equipment of this nature what is the use of having saving funds which bring in insufficient capital? I earnestly ask the hon the Minister to modernize the whole system of savings of the Post Office.

I was interested, Mr Speaker, to learn about the introduction of nursery schools, a number of which have already become operative. I should like to know how these nursery schools are being operated. Are they free institutions? I do not want to allege that that is not a good idea; on the contrary, it is an excellent idea. These nursery schools, I believe, are also very necessary. One of the basic reasons why the provinces used to subsidize nursery schools, particularly in the Transvaal, was because it was stipulated that 40% of the mothers should be working mothers. The idea was actually to assist working mothers in particular. That is why I believe this is a very good scheme. It is for working mothers, working in Post and Telecommunications. After all, the money that is really required to run these nursery schools is mostly money needed for salaries and equipment, and of course also the small quantity of food for the toddlers. I should like to know from the hon the Minister whether he intends to finance the complete establishment of each and every nursery school, including equipment, etc, or will the parents also have to make a certain financial contribution. The same applies of course to old aged homes. I do think, however, this is a very good idea and I do believe that it will be much better if the actual participants in these schemes are also called upon to make some sort of a contribution.

Turning now to the Bill itself, Mr Speaker, I should like to point out that what can be done by regualation can be done with greater ease than when it is done by way of legislation and by introducing amending legislation into this House from time to time. That is why I believe clause 2 is probably the most important of all the clauses contained in the Bill. The hon member for Paarl has dealt adequately with the whole question of plastic money, and I do not think his arguments need be repeated.

In respect of the nursery schools and the old aged homes I should merely want to point out though that although socialism might be a very good thing up to a certain point, there might come a time when one may not be able to afford to pay for everything one should like to give. This is something of which we should be very careful. I do want to stress, however, that the welfare of the Post Office staff should under no circumstances be neglected.

Furthermore I believe that placing the Post Office under some system of control pertaining to the Registrar of Financial Institutions is indeed an excellent idea. This, I am sure, will mean that the Post Office will now also be able to compete freely with all other financial institutions in the market. This is an idea I like very much indeed.

There is one final point to which I should like to draw the attention. I do regret the fact that the hon the Minister has had to reduce the amount per taxpayer in the future series of National Savings Certificates to R30 000. By doing this, I believe, many potential savers in the Post Office Savings Bank are going to be deterred from investing their money with the Post Office. It is true of course that the amount invested in National Savings Certificates does not equal the amount invested in Post Office Savings Bank Certificates. One could go on of course to analyze this whole issue in detail but I think one should rather leave the punch, if I could refer to it in that manner, for tomorrow, when the hon the Minister will be introducing his budget here in the House.

Mr Speaker, the hon member for Bezuidenhout mentioned some interesting facts. What disturbs me, however, is the following. I concede the point when he says that the small man who saves at the Post Office does have problems, in that inflation could mean that in the long term this man could have less of his original investment left. However, the problem is that what the solution the hon member proposes would mean was that we would be applying indexing. I believe that the State is in principle very cautious as regards indexing today because it means that inflation is made an absolute and fixed element of the country’s economic policy. We already find that many business enterprises, when they draw up their budgets, state, for example, that they are going to increase their prices by a certain percentage with effect from 1 April and by a further percentage six months later. I think we must get away from the idea of indexing our prices, our interest, etc. However, I agree that there is a problem as far as the savings of the small man are concerned. I think that we should try to fight inflation rather than build it into our structure.

The second point raised by the hon member for Bezuidenhout—I hope I did not misunderstand him—was that the Post Office Savings Bank was now going to fall under the Registrar of Financial Institutions. I do not think that this is the case because in my opinion the Bill provides that more flexibility is being created so that the Post Office Savings Bank will now be able to adopt a flexible managerial policy by way of regulation which will place it in the same category as the building societies and banking institutions that fall under the Registrar of Financial Institutions. I think I am correct in saying this.

I should like to deal with three principles here, the first of which is a social responsibility. People are so quick to say that if the State looks after its people it is acting socialistically. However, when the private sector looks after its people, then they are displaying social responsibility. Particularly in recent times, since the 12% increase in salaries, there has been a noticeable tendency to point a finger at the State and to say that it is promoting socialism by paying Post Office officials and all public servants too high salaries. However, just like any other organization, the Post Office has a social responsibility to its people, and we have to act with circumspection in this regard. For example, when we speak about institutions such as old age homes, nursery schools, etc, we must not approach the matter as if it is going to reduce the productivity of the worker. The same view is being reflected by some of our newspapers and periodicals. However, looking at the Japanese managerial pattern and culture, we find that in that country the worker is looked after almost from the day he is born to the day he retires. This means that they have a social responsibility to the worker. We, too, must look after our employees at the Post Office and our other public servants, and I also think that it should be recognized that the Post Office has succeeded in increasing by a very considerable margin the productivity of its people. That is the first point I want to make. We must not think that when social responsibility is displayed, particularly on the part of the State, there is something wrong with it, but that it is quite all right as far as the private sector is concerned.

The second principle I should like to deal with is co-operation between the State and the private sector. This, in my opinion, is something that we in this country have not yet fully developed. It is as if the private sector has no confidence in co-operation with the State. When that co-operation has to take place it seems as if the business world sometimes tends to concern itself with whether there is quick money to be made. In our small country and with the many problems we are faced with, it is imperative that the State and the private sector should come to terms to a greater extent. In my opinion, the Post Office has a wonderful history of co-operation with the private sector. For example, we know about their system of promoting local production of their equipment. We are now dealing with the aspect that they are going to be sharing the automatic tellers with the banks and building societies. We are a small country and, as the hon member for Paarl pointed out, we cannot have hundreds of systems here. Where there is co-ordination and co-operation we know that a better service to the consumer will result. This will also promote the combating of inflation. Since we have a small market, we unfortunately have the problem—in that it is often said that it must be a free market system—that one has 12 to 15 manufacturers, whereas not one of them is in full production. The result is that prices are forced up. As soon as this happens they appeal to the State for tariff protection so that they may be protected from imports. As we are now going to have further technological development, I hope that we shall succeed—in fact, the Board of Trade and Industries is dealing with a report on the electronics industry—in getting people to join forces so that the electronics industry can be developed. If we fail to do so, we shall fall behind. We know that the Post Office is playing a leading role as far as the manufacture of microchips is concerned. This is one of the modern products which is being developed to an increasing extent and in which we must have a share if we are not to fall behind.

The third point about which I want to say something is a flexible business policy. As the hon the Minister pointed out, the Post Office was obliged, when it wanted to adapt its interest rates, deposits, and so on, to come back to Parliament with amending legislation in order to change the Post Office Act. It is worthwhile looking at the competition between building societies and the Post Office over the past four to five years and the consequent imbalance that often arose. At one stage the benefits offered by the Post Office were far less attractive than those of the building societies. This means that there is an outflow of money from the Post Office to the building societies. The Post Office cannot change rapidly and for that reason that outflow takes place over a long period. When the adjustment is effected by the Post Office, one encounters the opposite, because then funds flow back very rapidly from the building societies to the Post Office. The Post Office is then to some extent saddled with a surplus of funds it may not need and, what is more, it cannot always hand them over to the Department of Finance. In terms of the provisions of the Bill, the Post Office will now be able to adopt a business policy that will enable it to adapt to changing circumstances, and that is very important. In this regard I agree with the hon member for Bezuidenhout.

As far as banking is concerned, we are now entering a very interesting phase in this country. The compartmentalization of our various financial institutions into banks, building societies and the Post Office is going to disappear, and we know this. When this happens the Post Office will have to be in a position to deal with rapid changes. We hope that the Bill creates that very possibility for the Post Office so that it will be able to adapt to future changes.

I hope that the Bill relating to building societies will be introduced shortly because one would not want to have the situation that while the Post Office is going in a certain direction, the building societies do not yet know what will be done as far as they are concerned.

I am very pleased to see that one of the new services that the Post Office is considering is that of transmission accounts. I call this poor man’s cheque account. I have a feeling that our commercial banks are ignoring the small man. They are going for the big accounts. One finds that the young people are going to the building societies so that their money can be dealt with through a transmission account. I am pleased that the Post Office, which is known as the bank for youth and for the poor man, is now also introducing this service. I am convinced that the provisions contained in this Bill and the regulations that will result from it will enable the Post Office to maintain its position in the future. I take pleasure in supporting the Second Reading of this legislation.

Mr Speaker, I wish to thank all the speakers who have participated in the debate for their contributions. It seems to me that the Post Office has become the catalyst for achieving unanimity in this House. In a country where we have so many conflicting ideas, and where major differences often emerge between us and the Opposition parties even in this House, it is gratifying, though somewhat alarming at times, to witness so much support for a Bill of this nature. Nevertheless, I take pleasure in conveying my sincere thanks to every hon member who took part in this debate for his contribution. It is quite clear that every member who spoke had made a study of some aspect of the legislation, most probably those aspects which interested him most.

†I want to express a special word of thanks to the hon member for Umhlanga for his very kind words which, I take, were for the most part directed at the Post Office staff. They have worked long hours trying to draft appropriated changes to the Act. It is not an easy thing to do, especially if you are working with an old Act such as the one we are dealing with here. They had to adapt its provisions to the new trend, namely to draw the Post Office into the business atmosphere to a larger extent and to legalize the situation as such. I am quite sure that they will accept the hon member’s remarks in the spirit he has made them. Officials, and sometimes Ministers too, often get brickbats instead of bouquets. Ministers get used to it, but I do not think it should be the case also with officials and I therefore thank the hon member for his kind words on their behalf. Perhaps I should do so on my part as well.

The hon member for Hillbrow raised a few very important points. He said that we could get rid of quite a number of unnecessary Acts by making use to a much larger extent of regulations. I am sure that he does not mean that we should run the country by regulation. That is not the soundest thing to do, but this could be very valuable in the financial sphere. Other hon members have also mentioned that when it comes to an institution such as the Post Office Savings Bank, it is sometimes important to be able to move swiftly. This aspect was also dealt with by the hon members for Bezuidenhout, Paarl and Umhlanga. The hon member for Waterkloof said that the Post Office often found itself at a disadvantage. This was proved just over a year ago when the building societies put up the interest rates and the Post Office could not follow suit very quickly. As a result deposits in our Savings Bank were reduced to about R50 million and we could only budget for R50 million for capital in the Savings Bank during the last financial year. When these interest rates were eventually adjusted, there was a big improvement. However, we can deal with this subject when we discuss the Post Office Budget later during the week. I agree that it is important that there should be a much swifter way for the Post Office of dealing with these things than having to report back to Parliament every time. The hon member for Hillbrow also spoke about the interest rates, but I think that is a subject we can talk about again when we discuss the Budget. He said the interest was below the inflation rate, and I agree that it is important that we find a way of ensuring that somebody does not actually lose money when he invests with us. During the discussion of the Budget we can also deal with the question of the amount of money a person should be allowed to invest in the Savings Bank. I want to thank the hon member for Hillbrow, as the leading speaker on Opposition side, for his support and for the constructive way he dealt with this Bill.

*I should like to thank the hon member for Umlazi, as chairman of the NP study group on Posts and Telecommunications, for his contribution. He summed up the three objectives very accurately, namely that there should be greater flexibility, that there should be greater efficiency, and that redundant measures should be scrapped. If this is our approach—I hope it will remain our approach—we can only improve. If the red tape can be eliminated and efficiency can be improved, one will have come a long way towards achieving proper departmental control.

I want to thank the hon member for Nigel for his support. He said that he would support any good law if it needed support. I think this is a very sound principle, and I hope we shall ensure, as far as possible, that the Post Office does not get drawn into politics in future. Although there may be differences in other fields, it is not necessary for those differences to be drawn into the discussion of services rendered in the public interest.

The hon member for Boksburg commended us for taking care of our elderly people as well as our toddlers. This is an example which the department has been setting for many years. Lately we have been trying to give momentum to it. That is why this legislation is being submitted so that we may improve the quality of the service rendered by us—as he put it—by ensuring that our staff is properly cared for at all times. We are proud of the fact that we are able to take proper care of our staff. That is why we actually have an influx of staff, even though the private sector is going through a difficult time. We hope that this will remain the position in future.

The modernization of the Post Office Savings Bank—to which a number of members referred—is essential. The hon member for Bezuidenhout referred to the certificates of former years. I have been looking for mine for a few years now. I still have three books containing some of these certificates, but I have been moving around such a lot that I do not know where they are at the moment. They must be worth quite a lot by now, and looking at the future, I may need them sooner or later.

†I have already replied partially to the hon member for Umhlanga by thanking him for his kind words. He mentioned the interesting point of the need of a nursery school for the children of the female employees. I want to accentuate the words “female employees”, because we have had many applications from Post Office families where the husband works for the Post Office but the wife works somewhere else. Once we have in some way or another managed to accommodate the people who are working for us, in other words, where the wife works for the Post Office, and there are still vacancies, we will obviously give preference to families where the husband is working for us. Within the first few days of this nursery school opening, it was completey full. In reply to a question from the hon member for Bezuidenhout I want to tell him that we charge approximately R60 per month for the first child but we pay for the teachers and all the equipment.

*I should like to mention that the Afrikaanse Taal-en Kultuurbeweging, which is a strong organization within the Post Office but which may become even stronger, raised a great deal of money and provided a lot of the equipment at this nursery school. I should like to thank this organization under the chairmanship of Mrs Bester, as well as other ladies such as Mrs Raath who serve on the committee, for their special contribution in this regard. They will also make a contribution towards the home for the aged, where we shall deal with the matter on the same basis.

†Some of the people moving into these cottages will actually buy them as is the case in the private sector. Those people who come in single, will be able to hire rooms. Those who become weak and need assistance, are actually civil pensioners and not social pensioners. The result is that they will have to pay something. We will obviously make use of that money, but we will also give them a sense of security and the feeling that they are not getting hand-outs but with the pensions they receive are able to cope in their old age. However, with the facilities the Post Office is providing, they are given the opportunity to be looked after from the cradle to the grave, if I may put it that way.

*The hon member for Boksburg also made the point that these people had served us during the best years of their lives. We shall certainly not abandon them in their old age.

†An interesting point the hon member for Umhlanga made concerned the question of keeping abreast of modern technology.

*One of the other hon members also spoke about the question of the transfer of money. As far as our Savings Bank and the Telebank are concerned, it is important that one cannot overdraw.

†We therefore cannot compete with the people who give overdrafts. In fact, as the possessor of a Telebank card, I will not be able to slot into the system of putting money into different accounts. Even if I were to ask the bank manager to transfer my overdraft to a safe deposit, I think he would feel that he did not want to touch such an account. So our Telebank does not provide that kind of facility.

The hon member for Umhlanga also said he liked the definitions and the good controls and the fact that the final decision rests with the Minister of Finance. As I see it, we have a broader spectrum in the business field where the Registrar of Companies and the Registrar of Banks will also have to be consulted to ensure that there will be a measure of co-ordination as regards interest rates, the amount that can be deposited, etc. This whole group will still fall under the Minister of Finance. I do not see this as taking away from the autonomy of the department, but it will ensure proper control. The other important thing is that it will all still fall under the jurisdiction of Parliament. I will still have to come back to Parliament in this connection. Also, in the case of ex gratia payments, those will have to be reported to the Auditor-General. So, we are not actually moving away from the ordinary controls. In fact, they are actually being improved.

*The hon member for Paarl made an interesting speech in which he raised specific points concerning the various uses of the plastic cards. I must say I think it is going a little too far when automation can give rise to the sort of situation to which the hon member referred, when one can buy a suit of clothes on one’s card. It is all very well for the fellow who has a lot of money in the bank, but many of us will just have to go on wearing our old suits a little longer if this is going to become the practice when one goes to buy a suit of clothes. There are some of us who believe that one should pay for one’s clothes while wearing them. If they are worn out before one has finished paying for them, well, then one just has to borrow from someone else.

The hon member made a very valid point. We do have the problem that there are two groups at the moment.

†There is the group that is with Saswitch and then the group of three consisting of two very important banks and a building society, a group which is still sitting on the sidelines. I think it is our duty in the time that lies ahead to see whether we can induce them actually to join Saswitch.

*It seems to me that there are two ways of going about this: Either one can be a founder member of the company or one can get in by means of an agreement. Negotiations are continuing, and I shall give my personal attention to this matter, together with the Postmaster-General. I agree with the hon member that we certainly cannot fall in with a whole number of companies to suit them and then use their network as well. It is very important that we should combine all these transactions in one very large company. I am not sure what the reasons are why the companies conerned are still refusing to join in, but we shall certainly go into this matter.

They are being reluctant brides.

Unfortunately they are reasonably big institutions—I do not want to mention their names here—and we would very much like to have them with us in the same institution or company.

*We shall certainly continue our negotiations. I may tell the hon member that it is very important that we should have a very strong company in this country with regard to this type of liaison, with regard to the transfer of money and liaison with foreign countries.

†I have answered a number of questions put to me by the hon member for Bezuidenhout. The hon member pointed out that they have been very friendly towards me in respect of the Additional Estimates I put before the House and now again this Bill and that he does not know whether it is going to be the same the day after tomorrow when the main Budget will be discussed. I cannot see why that should be so. None of us are going to change. Certainly myself, the Postmaster-General and the top staff are not going to change. It might be worthwhile if the hon member will just think of one thing. He did say that we can talk tomorrow about the big shortage of telephones. Perhaps he should just also give me a good idea as to how I can put that shortage right if I do not have the money. That is actually the key question that I am bringing to Parliament tomorrow.

Do what Hertzog did. Put up the prices so that people will not want them.

The hon member for Bezuidenhout does not look very keen on that suggestion. Perhaps he can suggest something like that tomorrow.

*The hon member for Waterkloof raised a few interesting points concerning the financial side of the Post Office. He said the Post Office Savings Bank should offer better interest rates and that we should discourage withdrawals as far as possible. He also suggested that we should be able to do this more swiftly by means of regulations. That is what we are trying to do here, to enable us to compete with the real interest rates that are being offered in the private sector. We shall do our best to comply with that.

An hon member made a very important point. He referred to the fact that building societies and banks were now entering each other’s fields and said that we should make sure we were not left behind. We have already made a study in this connection. We have top staff in our financial division. We also have a strong marketing division. These people monitor these matters all the time. I am sure that the top management will ensure, with their information and advice, that we are kept informed of developments and that we do not let the situation slip from our grasp. We shall have to be very careful, of course, because we do not want to get too much involved with the very big type of financial institutions.

I want to conclude by requesting all the hon members—the hon member for Umhlanga also referred to this—to visit the Verwoerd auditorium during the next few days to view the exhibition which we have put on there specifically to coincide with the Budget this week. The exhibition will give the hon members an idea of where we are going in the technological field. There hon members will be able to see how we transfer and store information. Our latest telephone equipment is also on show. Hon members will get a good idea of what the Post Office spends its money on and the direction in which technology is moving. A visit to the exhibition need not take more than a few minutes. We have the necessary staff there to deal with inquiries.

†The hon member for Bezuidenhout and the hon member for Hillbrow, hon members who are keen on the financial side, will see the Beltel system, our latest equipment for the storage of data, there with a very efficient young man operating it. One can get all sorts of information there. At about 11 o’clock this morning when we were there we obtained the gold price in Hong Kong and London, the weather report and the current available interest rates at building societies. That can all be called up in a few moments. We are examining the possibility of having a Beltel system in the vicinity of Parliament so that members can use it during sessions to get information, especially while the service is still free. Later on we might instal a little coin slot where money has to be inserted to use the system for 10 minutes or half an hour. That will only be coming later.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Bill not committed.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr Speaker, I move:

The Bill merely contains the provisions of the Inspection of Financial Institutions Act, 1962 (Act No 68 of 1962) and all amendments thereof in consolidated form. The necessary certificate has been provided by the State Law Advisers.

Mr Speaker, the hon the Deputy Minister will not be surprised to hear that we will be supporting this Bill but in doing so we will actually be taking a little longer than he took to introduce it. The two financial Bills on the Order Paper, although they are consolidations, are both very important Bills because they relate to the financial structure of South Africa and to financial institutions. In fact, when one looks at the financial sector of the economy one finds that it is one of the few sectors that might show some real economic growth in 1983 and 1984.

This Bill deals with the inspection of financial institutions, and this is particularly important because the other regulations that we have will be completely valueless if there is not a system of regular inspection. In fact, I think it is the actual inspection that gives the other regulations their teeth. Having worked in a financial institution, I am aware of the tremendous benefits that inspections have for keeping an organization on its toes. Even if the inspector is not there at the time, the fact that he will be coming at some time has a very beneficial effect.

There are one or two points that I should like to raise with the hon the Deputy Minister for clarification. Looking at clause 1, I notice that no opportunity has been taken to include two sectors whose inclusion one might have anticipated. One is the stockbroking community, and I assume that is because under the Stock Exchange Act, section 23 actually provides that the Registrar can inspect a stockbroker, and it will be done in the same way as if he was a financial institution.

The second point that I find interesting is that boards of executors and trust companies are not included in the definition under clause 1, and I am interested to know why that is the case.

An important point is covered by clause 2 which provides for the appointment of temporary inspectors who should be able to report objectively and impartially. I think this is an important principle which one hopes will be applied more and more. We know that there is a shortage of suitably qualified financial staff in South Africa. This applies both to the private sector and to the public sector but I think it is particularly acute in the public sector and therefore any opportunity that we have to involve the private sector should be made use of. If the provisions of this Bill are to have any force and are to be of use then it is in fact very important that there are regular inspections. I think part of the problem we might have with people taking chances on income tax is that, because of a lack of staff, the various offices are not inspected or audited as regularly as possible, and therefore individuals are inclined to think: Maybe if I take a chance on my income tax I am not going to be caught out.

Clause 3 spells out under what conditions an inspection can take place. I should just like to confirm with the hon the Deputy Minister that the things that are spelt out in the various subsections from (a) to (h) are not restrictive. By that I mean that I want to know whether the Registrar still has the right to inspect for other reasons, because I believe we must accept that the financial sector is one sector that is changing fairly rapidly. We are living in a period of considerable change in respect of financial institutions, and new things are cropping up, which might not be covered in terms of these subsections. As I read the Bill this does not detract from the generality of his ability to inspect for other reasons. I should like to have that confirmed by the hon the Deputy Minister.

I am delighted that we are continuing to allow a person who can show a good reason actually to call for an inspection. I believe this is important. There should be no frivolous reasons given because he may be asked to furnish security to cover the costs of such an inspection. History does teach us however, that there are times when individuals have actually played a very prominent role in bringing to light injustices.

In respect of clause 4 there is also one point I should like to be clarified by the hon the Deputy Minister. This clause deals with the powers of the Registrar and his inspectors. Clause 4(1)(b) actually gives him the power to search any premises occupied by a financial institution. Now, the point I should like to be clarified is the following. Does this cover people such as life insurance agents? I know that for short-term insurance they normally take the money in a trust account. However, what about the person who collects premiums on a life insurance policy or for a pension fund? Does this action give the inspector the right to go in and examine the books of those agents? I ask this because if one goes back to section 20bis of the Insurance Act one actually finds there a definition of an agent as being part of the insurance company. I should just like confirmation of that because where people are collecting money this could actually be an area of abuse.

The final point on which I should like clarification is the following. When one looks at clause 4(2) one sees it is pointed out there that a person can be examined or cross-examined by an inspector, and that when this is done he may have his legal adviser present at such examination. The only point I should like clarified is the question of whether a witness shall have the normal privileges which he would have when he is examined in a court of law. The reason why I raise this point specificially is the following. If the hon the Deputy Minister would look at clause 9(1)(b), he will see it is stated there that a person may be called upon to give evidence even though his answers may tend to incriminate him personally. Clause 4(2) makes one assume that such person may have his legal adviser present at such examination and that the normal rules and privileges which apply in a court of law will also apply to an individual giving evidence in this particular case.

I have actually raised a number of points.

and if the hon the Deputy Minister could clarify all these, I believe, it would be useful not only to this House but also to people who are involved in general because in a discussion I had with representatives of financial institutions in Johannesburg last week, it appeared that these were some of the points of which they were actually unsure.

Mr Speaker, I merely rise to indicate that we in the NRP will also be supporting this measure. As the hon member for Edenvale has said, this Bill is designed to consolidate the laws relating to the inspection of the affairs of virtually all financial institutions in South Africa. These are presently covered by seven different Acts.

As this is merely a consolidation Bill we are not going to elaborate on the contents at all. We will be supporting the Bill.

Mr Speaker, I rise merely to say that we have read this Bill. As the hon the Deputy Minister said, it is merely a consolidating measure. In the circumstances we have no objection to the legislation.

Mr Speaker, I should like to thank all hon members who participated in this debate for their support of this legislation.

The hon member for Edenvale raised a few matters one of which was the question of stockbrokers. I want to say immediately that we are in total agreement in regard to the importance of this particular piece of legislation. When we look at the definition of “financial institution” we find that it refers to an insurer, a pension fund, a banking institution, a building society, a medical scheme and a unit trust, all of which are very important institutions in our economic and financial life. It is therefore important to have an effective and authoritative reference to legislation dealing with these matters and dealing with the control of these institutions. In his speech the hon member referred to stockbrokers, boards of executors and insurance agents. These persons or bodies are not dealt with specifically in this particular legislation. However, I want to assure the hon member that the various pieces of legislation that are being consolidated in this Bill have worked very well in the past. As a matter of fact, if the hon member will refer to Standing Order No 83(4) dealing with Consolidation Bills he will find that it reads as follows:

Be that as it may, I want to give the hon member the assurance that I will take up the matters that he raised and reply to him in that regard because I feel that he has a reasonable argument.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Bill not committed.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr Speaker, I move:

The purpose of the Bill is to consolidate the existing provisions relating to the investment, safe custody and administration by financial institutions of funds and trust property; in other words, it is merely a re-enactment of the provisions of the Financial Institutions (Investment of Funds) Act, 1964, Act No. 56 of 1964, and its amendments. The necessary certificate has been submitted by the State law advisers.

Mr Speaker, we shall support the Bill. I hope the hon the Deputy Minister will not mind my raising a few points which are related to the Bill. I want to raise these points because we do not financial legislation in the House Particularly during Budget debate the politicians tend to climb in and take most of the time.

The Bill is obviously a very important piece of legislation because it helps to protect the funds which are entrusted to financial institutions by ordinary individuals. It is essential that we have order in this situation. I think it is also very good for the financial institutions because if people have trust in financial institutions, it means they can operate more effectively.

The point which I want to raise with the hon the Deputy Minister relates to the question of the declaration of interest which is provided for in clause 3. If the hon the Deputy Minister does not want to reply at this stage to my remarks in this connection, I can appreciate it. The clause provides that a person must declare his interest in writing or otherwise. I wonder just how effective this is, because when a director declares his interest during a board meeting, it tends to become a formality. Let me quote an example. If one is sitting on a participation mortgage bond company and an associated company comes along to borrow money, what is one’s ethical position? The legal position is that one must declare one’s interest and then one can go on and grant the bond. I think, however, there is also a question of ethics which we shall have to look at some stage.

Another point I should like to raise is that at some stage with regard to financial institutions and the investment of funds we shall have to think of covering those areas which we do not cover at the present moment. I have a little brochure here in which the hon the Deputy Minister might be interested. This brochure is for a portfolio management company which does not fall under this legislation. It states that the front-end fee is 8% of the funds administered; in other words, if one brings one’s money, they take 8% for administering one’s money. The point is that at some stage we might have to look at those institutions and specifically at the question of how financial institutions are actually valuing their assets. We experienced this in Johannesburg in regard to the pension fund where the question of book value as opposed to market value and the so-called method of Chinese accounting arose. These are areas which, when we come to redrafting our financial legislation, we shall have to look at.

Mr Speaker, on behalf of the CP I just wish to say that we support the Bill.

Mr Speaker, we in the NRP also support the Bill which is a consolidation Bill and relates to a very, very important subject and that is the safekeeping of the public’s money. We always support such legislation.

Mr Speaker, I should like to raise with the hon the Deputy Minister a matter for his cogitation. Clause 1(i)(c) deals with the Friendly Societies Act. It has come to my attention and also to the attention of some of my colleagues that some organizations which we find around South Africa are called burial societies. These burial societies often fall under the Friendly Societies Act and the best known ons is Avbob which has become a huge institution. It used to accept 10 cents per week from working people. Everybody says “Avbob” stands for “almal vrek behalwe ons boere”. [Interjections.] The point is that among our poorer community and our Black community in particular a decent funeral is a very important thing. What seems to be happening is that there are organizations or institutions who set themselves up to accept regular monies from poor people, people in the low income groups, on the basis that they will then be assured of having a good burial. I would therefore like to ask the hon the Deputy Minister to ask his department to investigate whether these societies can be inspected in terms of clause 5 of this Bill which deals with powers of inspection and which also refers to the Bill we have just dealt with. The British Government under MacMillan described the exploitation of these poorer people as the unacceptable face of capitalism. I feel that while we want to maintain a free market economy in this country, we also have to protect those sections of our population who often hand money over to people in good faith who then disappear or misuse the money. Often when people think they are covered for their burial, they are presented with a further bill in which they are informed that they have not allowed for certain expenditure. I would therefore like to urge the hon the Deputy Minister, in so far as he is able in relation to friendly societies, to endeavour to control this type of financial institution—that is basically what it is—more effectively, especially if it is found that they are exploiting the poorer members of our community with regard to a burial which clearly presents any family with a great emotional crisis and is a time when they are hardly going to bargain about the price of a coffin for a beloved member of the family who has died.

Mr Speaker, I want to thank hon members for taking part in this short debate. Some of the points raised by the hon member for Edenvale and the hon member for Pietermaritzburg North do not apply as far as this particular measure is concerned. I do not think that the high cost of a funeral, for example, has anything to do with the provisions of the Bill, although I agree with the sentiments expressed by the hon member for Pietermaritzburg North. I also agree with him that farmers are a friendly lot, dead or alive. However, I have taken note of what the hon member has said and we will give attention to it.

The hon member for Edenvale referred to clause 3 dealing with the declaration of interest when one is dealing with trust property. If he looks at clause 2, the hon member will see that a moral obligation in this respect is indeed imposed upon a person in such circumstances. Here it is specifically stated that he must act in good faith and has to exercise proper care and diligence. We do, therefore, impose a moral obligation in this respect.

Question agreed to.

Bill read a Second Time.

Bill not committed.

Bill read a Third Time.

Mr Speaker, I move:

During 1964 a commission of inquiry was appointed, its terms of reference being to investigate and report on matters relating to the education and training of persons in all branches of the survey field. After a thorough investigation, which lasted for years, the commission published a report in which the situation in regard to surveying, the education of surveyors and what could be done to further regulate and develop the surveying profession, were dealt with in detail. Implementation of the recommendations have taken place of a number of years and the surveying industry has already picked the fruits of the measures adopted.

†The only recommendation of the commission of inquiry which still has to be put into effect concerns the establishment of a South African Council for Surveyors comprising representatives at both professional and technical level of the full range of land surveying and mapping activities, with powers to register surveyors and to take disciplinary action against surveyors found guilty of improper conduct. The Bill now before the House gives effect to the remaining recommendation. This Bill has been the subject of negotiations between the Central Council for Land Surveyors, the Institute of Topographical and Engineering Surveyors and the State over a score of years.

As hon members no doubt know, the land surveying profession is already being served by a statutory body, namely the Central Council of Land Surveyors which was established by virtue of the Land Surveyors’ Registration Act of 1950. The land surveying profession is not new to this country. It has a long and proud history. In the Cape Province since 1834 and in the other provinces virtually since land was formally surveyed, only licensed surveyors have been permitted to carry out surveys for title. The topographical and engineering surveyor on the other hand has never had the privilege of a controlling body which could accept responsibility for matters which are of vital importance to the technical surveyor namely education, registration, discipline, fees and reservation of work. I think it is opportune to mention the very important role which existing institutes such as the Institute of Topographical and Engineering Surveyors of South Africa, generally known as (Itessa), have played in the past in the interests of the technical surveyor.

*The Bill envisages the repeal of the Land Surveyors’ Registration Act, 1950, in terms of which the Central Council of Land Surveyors was established, and makes provision for the establishment of a South African Council for Professional Land Surveyors and Technical Surveyors. This council will be responsible for the registration of the various categories of surveyors that have been identified, ie professional land-surveyors, surveyors and survey technicians. Broadly speaking, the difference between the various categories is the following: The professional land-surveyor is the present day land surveyor we are all familiar with who, after completion of a degree course in land surveying, is registered as a land-surveyor. He is competent, in his work, to cover a wide spectrum of the survey field.

To be registered as a surveyor, a person must have sufficient academic qualifications, as well as having undergone training in practical survey work, thus enabling him to work for himself. A survey technician is a person whose qualifications are such that he can only do his job under the supervision of a professional land-surveyor, a surveyor or other suitably qualified person. The Bill also makes provision for the reservation of work for professional land-surveyors and technical surveyors, the exercising of discipline in the profession and the determination of a tariff of fees.

†Hon members will notice that the Land Survey Act, 1927, and the Universities Act, 1955, have been amended in the Schedule to the Bill. The amendments which are proposed are consequential to the provisions of the Bill before the House.

Mr Speaker, we on this side of the House welcome this Bill. It is a very useful and important piece of legislation. The hon the Deputy Minister was quite right in saying that the land surveyor is not an unknown person in South Africa. If we consider the whole question of property in South Africa, we find that there is probably no other country in the world that can claim that it is better than us when it comes to knowing where everything in the country is. When the surveyors came out here early in the last century, they introduced a system of cadastral surveying here which is second to none. It indeed happens very rarely that there is any duplication in respect of a property in South Africa and that is the result not only of the fantastic work being done by the land surveyors themselves but also of the system of deeds offices which backs them up.

Having said that, let me deal with the Bill itself. It is a very good Bill, but certain portions of it need to be changed and I intend moving some amendments in the Committee Stage. I shall just mention them as I go along now. In clause 3(2)(i) there is reference to:

These people must be registered in terms of this legislation in the first instance. One cannot have three persons being appointed to a Council of such importance without making absolutely certain that they are registered in terms of this legislation.

Then I want to refer to clause 4 which deals with committees which are appointed by the council, and specifically to subsection (2)(e) which deals with improper conduct. I intend moving an amendment to the effect that recommendations for consideration and approval by the council must be submitted to the council in a particular way to make absolutely certain that in the case of improper conduct on the part of a land surveyor or a technician he will be tried in a proper manner befitting a professional body.

In Clause 7 I have found a further weakness. Clause 7 sets out the general powers of the council and the powers of the Minister relating to certain matters in respect of which the council may make recommendations. There I want to introduce a provision which will allow an institute, as prescribed in the Bill—there are institutes in the Western Cape, in Natal and in Transvaal—to have its recommendations considered if it makes such recommendations to the council. I want to make absolutely certain that the independence of the institutes is still retained. Where there will now be this overriding body, the institutes must still, as institutes, be able to put forward recommendations to that body even though they have members on that body.

With reference to the same clause, I also want to ensure that as far as Itessa is concerned, its constitution will be approved of by the council. Nowhere in the Bill can one establish that the constitution of Itessa has been approved of by the council, and I do not think that it is correct that any organization should have access to a council of such importance unless the council itself knows what that organization’s constitution and bylaws are and approves of them. If the council has control over the institutes of the professional land surveyors, it should also have control over a new body which is brought into the organization. As the hon the Minister knows, there were a lot of difficulties between the professional land surveyors and Itessa and that was one of the stumbling-blocks why it took so long for this Bill to appear before the House. I want to make absolutely certain—I think it will be appreciated by the professional land surveyor—that the constitution of Itessa is gone into so that it is absolutely certain that it fits in with the whole of the new framework that is being created.

The next point I want to raise is the question that when someone is tried for improper conduct he has to appear before his peers; in other words, a professional land surveyor must appear only before a committee consisting of other professional land surveyors. I intend moving an amendment to make provision for that. I think it is absolutely incorrect that a professional land surveyor should be tried by a committee on which a surveyor or a technician serves. He should be tried by people of his own profession. On the other hand, if a technician has to be tried for improper conduct it must be made absolutely certain that in that case there is at least one technician on the committee in order to see that justice is done and that it is done properly.

The next point I want to deal with relates to clause 12, namely who should serve on the education advisory committee of the council. This is a very important committee indeed and it is absolutely necessary that universities and technikons are seen to offer the required courses because powers are now given based on a profession.

I find a certain weakness in the constitution of the Advisory Committee as far as the technikons and technical colleges are concerned. Clause 12(1)(b) reads as follows:

Just as one requires from universities that the person who shall be appointed to this position should be a qualified professional land surveyor, the same should apply to technikons.

We have another problem in regard to surveying. Various professions such as the architectural and engineering profession are qualified to undertake certain types of surveying. It would be entirely wrong if architects or engineers were precluded from doing the type of survey work which they normally do in the course of their own activities. Therefore I intend moving an amendment to the effect that a further function of the advisory committee should be to investigate at universities and technikons those courses which engineers, architects and similar professions follow in order to assess the type of work that they are entitled to do so that exemptions can then be granted to people who are not registered under this legislation in order to allow them to do the work which befits their particular profession. Only the council can assess the value of a particular course either at a university or a technikon, and it can only do it through its committee. I think this is very important so as to prevent any clash that could take place between architects and engineers on the one hand and land surveyors on the other.

In clause 27 there is another weak point because in my opinion we should clearly state as to what type of survey work a man shall perform under the supervision of a professional land surveyor. As the clause stands at present it is not clear as to what work such a person shall do and in the amendment I propose to move I ask for clarification of this point.

According to the provisions in clause 33 the council may terminate suspension of any person. In our view this could cause some difficulties. For instance, if a person has been found guilty of improper conduct and is suspended but after investigation the council decides to terminate his suspension, he can come back without having to comply with any condition. I propose to move an amendment in this regard to the effect that such a person can come back into the profession but that the council if it so wishes shall lay down terms and conditions which he must comply with before he can once again practise.

Clause 39 should in my view also be amended. This clause deals with exemptions and gives the Minister almost complete powers to make the exemptions without any consideration whatever by the board. The amendment I propose to move aims to make it absolutely certain that the Minister can only give an exemption if it has been approved of by the board.

Finally, in clause 40 we have the construction of Act 22 of 1904 according to which the Cape Province is divided into two areas with an Institute of Professional Land Surveyors for the Eastern Cape and the Institute of Professional Land Surveyors for the Western Cape, each with different assets, liabilities and obligations and I want to ensure that when this Bill becomes an Act the assets and liabilities of each institute will remain with the particular institute and that if the one has more assets than the other it will not be divided equally between the two institutes.

We have great pleasure in supporting this Bill.

Mr Speaker, I appreciate the contribution of the hon member for Bezuidenhout. He expressed constructive criticism. It is clear that he has made a thorough study of the legislation, and I am sure that this is also appreciated by the land surveyors’ profession.

The fact is that this Bill was discussed beforehand with the various institutes, the Council of Land Surveyors and other interested parties. The land surveyors’ profession believes that under the circumstances this legislation is very satisfactory. However, I want to say at the outset that the arguments advanced by the hon member for Bezuidenhout should certainly be given thorough attention. It is true that the Bill satisfies the land surveyors, the technical surveyors and the survey technicians, but as the hon member said, it may well be that engineers and architects are not necessarily involved. However, I think that to a large extent the hon member solved his problem himself when he discussed clause 39. In terms of the provisions of this clause the Minister can exempt people in certain circumstances. It is clear that this matter will have to be given attention, and consequently there is no argument about this.

The land surveyors’ profession is a very old profession; I would not say that it is the oldest profession, but it is a very old profession, in any case. [Interjections.]

When one is dealing with land and rights with regard to land, as well as with obtaining rights to land, one always needs the land surveyors profession. This has always been the case. I also find it very interesting to read what Professor B M Jones had to say in his booklet Man must measure.

†He begins by defining what is understood by land surveying. This is something which, I believe, is opportune to mention at this stage. According to him land surveying comprises five main branches, namely cadastral surveying, geodetic surveying, topographical surveying, engineering surveying and hydro-graphic surveying.

I had one of those but the wheels came off. [Interjections.]

Professor Jones states in this little book that the earliest positive evidence of a cadastral survey plan comes from the Babylonian civilization, circa 2 300 BC. This proves that land surveying is indeed a very, very old profession. This evidence was found on a clay tablet and was inscribed while the clay was soft. The tablet was later hardened by baking or drying.

In South Africa we find that the whole basis of our system of land surveying is founded on the edicts of Emperor Charles V, who, in 1523, decreed that all transactions involving land or immovable property in Holland should take place before a judge. On this decree is based our whole system of land surveying, and he also our system of deeds officers, which took over the duties of a judge of a court of law, as decreed by Emperor Charles V.

We have, as I have already pointed out, a further branch of surveying which is also very interesting. This is the geodetic branch.

The father of geodesy was a Greek by the name of Erotosthenes of Alexandria, who, in 250 BC, carried out the first known determination of the radius of the earth. He determined in 250 BC that the earth was indeed a sphere, and also determined the earth’s radius by means of a very simple method, which in itself is also very interesting. His result was only in error by 16%. When one looks at the errors made by some politicians in last year’s referendum, I think this gentleman’s error was negligible. [Interjections.]

*When we look at the motivation for the present Bill, it appears that it is due to the fact that the land surveyors’ profession and its circumstances have become a great deal more refined than they were before. I think we should begin by ascertaining what a profession really is. After all, the title of this Bill is the Professional Land Surveyors’ Bill. It is therefore very clear that one can, in fact, define a profession. I am treading on thin ice now, since this is a very difficult definition. Perhaps we could put it as follows, because it fulfils the requirements of this definition, it can also be regarded as the oldest profession. I am using the definition of a certain James Teversham, who puts it as follows:

When we are dealing with land surveying, we are rendering a service to the community, and we are doing so on an ethical basis. It also requires a great deal of training to be able to do so. The exigency with which surveys have to be carried out nowadays, as well as their extent, is very clear. In this regard we need only refer to the leasehold surveys for Black people, for example. The whole urbanization process makes it very clear that assistance will be needed in surveying certain areas more rapidly.

The present Bill is most certainly a big step forward in that direction. In fact, mention is made in this Bill of a survey technician, who will be able to perform his work under the supervision and control of a land surveyor in future. In the past it was always quite a struggle for a land surveyor to find someone to assist him, someone in whom he could place a certain amount of trust according to the letter of the law. The land surveyor has always experienced problems regarding the trustworthiness of those assisting him in his surveys. In terms of the present measure that pressure on the land surveyor is being alleviated. This will mean better and faster surveys, particularly in circumstances in which it is essential that this be done.

When we take this aspect further, we can regard it as an extension of the status of the land surveyors’ profession. To tell the truth, it is now bringing the status of the survey technician in line with that of the medical technician, the dental technician, and every-one who works under the supervision and control of an exceptionally qualified person, in the present case, under a professional land surveyor.

Now it is true that the land surveyor we know is, in fact, the man who carries out the kind of survey one can have registered in a deeds office. It is very important for a person to be able to identify the land described in his title deed. The technical surveyor, however, is different. He is the person who has to provide more technical detail for planning purposes. For example, he does certain surveys on which a civil engineer, a land surveyor, a town planner or an architect can base certain planning, but there has never been any professional regulation of the accuracy or the competence or the ethical standards of a technical surveyor. Consequently, some of our most expensive and most important developments involved people who were not professionally regulated, who could not be held responsible professionally, and with regard to whom there was no guarantee as to the accuracy of their work? This Bill is an important step forward in the development process in South Africa, since we are dealing with a new section of the profession—the technical surveyors who do technical surveys and provide technical data. These people are now being compelled professionally to work accurately and judiciously, and they will now be held responsible if losses are incurred through their injudicious actions. At this stage in South Africa’s development I think this is an extremely important process that is taking place. For this reason I should like to compliment the typographical surveyors and the land surveyors on finding one another with regard to this long-standing problem, as the hon member for Bezuidenhout quite rightly pointed out.

In my opinion this is a tremendous step forward, as far as the protection of the public is concerned as well. It is indeed true that when a person who is a land surveyor or a technician or a technical surveyor appears in a court and that person has a prima facie case against him this legislation provides that that matter must be reported to the council so that action can be taken against such a person if the council should see fit to do so. I therefore wish to reiterate that for the first time we have legislation that does not regulate the land surveyors—the land surveyors have been regulated from as far back as 1927 and there is no problem in that regard—but which regulates the technical surveyors. We also have the additional aspect that survey work can be done more rapidly, particularly with regard to the urbanization process of Blacks, which we are engaged in at present.

I therefore want to congratulate the hon the Deputy Minister on this piece of legislation and I want to tell him that I am convinced in my heart of hearts that this legislation is very important, although all hon members of this House and I possibly do not realize precisely how important it is. This legislation will be one of the milestones in South Africa’s future development, since before anyone can obtain rights to immovable property in future, action will be taken in terms of this legislation. I take pleasure in supporting this Bill.

Mr Speaker, it was a great pleasure and also very interesting to listen to the authoritative speech of the hon member for Pretoria West because he practised the profession of land surveyor before coming to brave the troubled waters of politics.

I cannot speak with anything like the same authority as the hon member in regard to this legislation because I am not a land surveyor, but I should like to congratulate the legal draftsmen on this legislation. It has been drawn up in such a way that even an ordinary farmer like me can understand it. In my opinion this legislation is very positive in all respects. As the hon the Deputy Minister said, many discussions were held, and there was a great deal of consultation with the interested bodies, before the legislation before us was eventually introduced. There are three important aspects of this legislation that I should like to single out. In the first instance there is the establishment of the South Africa Council for Professional Land Surveyors and Technical Surveyors, the registration of persons in the profession and then, of course, the establishment of the Education Advisory Committee.

The Land Surveyor’s Registration Act, 1950—it was placed on the Statute Book more than 30 years ago—left open several loopholes, as practical experience has shown us in the interim. The legislation we are now considering is aimed at eliminating those loopholes. The aim of the legislation is not to be restrictive but rather to exercise control, as the previous hon speaker mentioned. At one stage I was concerned that the legislation might restrict the activities of certain farmers who do their own surveying and building of dams and sometimes also help their neighbours in return for payment. However, this is not the case.

I want to refer the hon member, who went into the history of land surveying, to our own history. About 100 years ago the horse was sometimes used as a surveying instrument. Under the old presidents of the Transvaal Republic it sometimes happened that when a burger returned from wars in the interior, he was given the right to own the land he could encompass on horseback, given one hour’s riding time. I take it that such a survey was later carried out professionally and confirmed. I myself farm on a piece of land that was acquired in this way. An hour’s ride defined the boundaries of the farm. I am only extremely sorry that the farm is no longer its original size.

Another interesting piece of history relating to land surveying in my part of the world concerns the farm in which the Swartkoppies pump station is situated, just south of Johannesburg. The farm belonged to Oom Ras van der Merwe. One day in the 1890’s three men on horseback from the gold fields of Johannesburg approached Oom Ras. They told him that they needed his farm, that it was a well-watered farm and that they needed it because the water was required for the development of the gold fields. Oom Ras was totally unwilling to sell his farm, and told them so. They replied that he could name his price. The farmer thought he would specify an impossible price. He told them that they could buy the farm, but that the length of the farm should be paced. The farm began just this side of Turffontein and extended to the Klip River, where Everite is situated today—a distance of several thousand yards. Today that does not sound expensive for a farm, but one must bear in mind that at the time one could obtain a farm in exchange for a wagon and a team of oxen, or even in exchange for a horse with its saddle and bridle. The old man sold his farm for £1 a yard.

Suffice it to say that we on this side of the House are very pleased to support the legislation. We think it is a very thorough piece of work. The Council for Professional Land Surveyors and Technical Surveyors will accord further recognition and confirmation of their professional status to professional land surveyors and technical surveyors. With these few thoughts we support the Bill.

Mr Speaker, I should like to thank the hon member for Meyerton most sincerely for the support he has given this Bill on behalf of his party. I was particularly interested in the remark of the hon member that in the early days of our history saddle-horses were used as land survey instruments, inter alia. Immediately I thought that the farmers of that time were fortunate, since one would probably be able to measure out a much larger farm with the aid of a saddle-horse than with the aid of a tortoise. [Interjections.] I take pleasure in supporting the principle of the Bill before this House. I am not a land surveyor myself, but as someone who has been in the legal profession for many years, I am acutely aware of the important and indispensable service this profession renders to our community. In a system in which people own land, their input is of fundamental importance. The input they make to the concept of land ownership is so important that previous generations referred to “kaart en transport” when they were speaking about freehold. If one held a “kaart en transport” (title-deed) for land, that land was yours. Of course, that expression reflects the co-operation that has always existed between the land surveyors’ profession and the legal profession with regard to land transactions, viz that the one saw to the “kaart” and the other saw to the “transport”. I therefore think it is fitting that it is my privilege to support the hon member for Pretoria West, who is a land surveyor, in this regard.

One of my predecessors as MP for the Stellenbosch constituency was, in fact, a prominent land surveyor. I am referring to the late Mr Bob Loubser, who was also a very well-known Springbok rugby player. When the Land Surveyor’s Registration Act of 1950 was discussed in this House, he participated in the debate and pointed out how old surveying was, as the hon member for Pretoria West did today. Mr Loubser went so far as to quote from the Dutch Bible, viz from Deuteronomy 27, verse 17, as follows:

It is clear to me that at that time my predecessor often had to deal with wilful people who wanted to get their hands on their neighbour’s land. Of course, today we read in the new translation of the Bible in beautiful, refreshing Afrikaans:

Probably that boundary was determined at that time by someone one could call a surveyor. Since my predecessor quoted from the Bible, this House would permit me to say that one of the finest and most apt quotations. I could find in this regard in the Bible is Psalm 16, verse 6, where David says:

In the old translation of the Bible this verse is even better. It reads:

Clearly the system of surveying land is very old. In his speech the hon the Deputy Minister also referred to the long and illustrious history of the land surveyor’s profession in South Africa. As an inhabitant of Stellenbosch, I am particularly well-qualified to vouch for that. We are still conducting research: on the early history of our town. In this process one of our most important aids is a number of relatively detailed topographical records of the town. They afford us an invaluable series of flashbacks in history with intervals of approximately a half-century in between. One of the most important of these is a detailed sketch map which was drawn up as far back as 1817 by a land surveyor by the name of W F Hertzog and which is still an important source of reference to us today. It is being of tremendous assistance to us in our research, which is concerned with the restoration of the old image of our town. Of course, we are doing that work for the sake of the whole of South Africa, since Stellenbosch belongs to South Africa. Since I spoke about this earlier in my speech, Stellenbosch is, as it were, the title deed of the right of us Whites to live in South Africa.

This Bill orders the surveyors’ profession on a much wider basis than was the case in the past. It now includes surveyors and survey technicians, an aspect to which the hon member for Pretoria West referred most competently. All this is being done in the interests of the profession, but also in the interests of the public being served by the profession. In my opinion, this Bill is a meaningful and healthy measure, which I take pleasure in supporting.

Mr Speaker, this legislation has been in the pipeline for some 20 years but now at long last surveyors will have their own body, like the professional engineers, architects and many other professions have. This puts them in the same position and it is long overdue.

The surveyor plays a very important and responsible role in our communtiy. They have an extremely high reputation, not only in our country but in overseas countries as well. I think—in respect of what the hon member for Pretoria West said in respect of leasehold—that had we been in a position to have more surveyors available, we could have offered our urban Blacks title to their land and not leasehold. This may upset hon members in the CP but I believe that would have been for the better in the long term.

We will be supporting the Bill. A colleague of mine, who is not here and I must apologize on his behalf to the hon the Deputy Minister, will raise one or two points during the Committee Stage.

Mr Speaker, the hon member for South Coast said some wise things, and apparently hon members are making wise decisions today by unanimously supporting this legislation.

I have only one problem, however. The hon member for Meyerton claimed that this Bill was drawn up so clearly that even he, a farmer, could understand it. My problem is that if all farmers can understand this legislation, there are going to be some court cases shortly. I think there are a few technical points in this legislation that are debatable, and this is possibly going to make work for the attorneys.

The previous legislation in this regard was passed in 1953. It is a joyous occasion, since the topographical surveyors, the engineering surveyors, as well as other land surveyors have made their peace, and everyone has come to an agreement. The legislation before us today is legislation which is being imitated by many other institutions in the RSA. They can ask the hon the Minister for legislation to identify and recognize them as a profession with its own legislation. Hence my felicitations to the various sectors of this profession who have made their peace with one another and who have submitted this Bill at last.

Détente.

Yes, it is détente of the highest order.

To me none of the finest things in this Bill is the fact that these people will be able to deal with their own affairs in future. Clause 9 provides that a report must be submitted to the hon the Minister once a year, but otherwise this profession deals with its own affairs. This is a good thing. We in South Africa must get away from the idea that everyone must be answerable to the hon the Minister; it is not so much a case of being regulated by him, but simply that when they are unable to make peace themselves, they should appeal to the hon the Minister and deal with the matter and make peace. The professions in South Africa must learn to get away from this and to deal with their own affairs.

There are two other clauses to which I want to refer. One of them is clause 14 and the other is clause 24. Clause 14 refers to a member of the education advisory committee or an alternate for such a member being relieved of his office, as well as all the other circumstances under which a person can be relieved of his office. The disciplinary steps that can be taken when a person is not registered are set out in clause 24. I have one or two problems in this regard. I should like to ask the hon the Deputy Minister whether he has thought about the questions of insolvency and mental illness. I can accept it if the other factors mentioned cover the situation in practice, but I am asking whether it would not be well ex abundanti cautela for insolvency and mental illness to be pertinently mentioned here.

Of course, the legislation before us is one of the cornerstones with regard to the registration of land and real rights in South Africa. As previous speakers have already said, I do not think that any Registrar of Deeds could continue to exist or that there would be any exactitude if the question of registraton and a title-deed did not go hand in hand with a land surveyor. Even today—and this is very important—no building society will grant a bond unless one has an identification certificate from a land surveyor indicating that the property on which the bond is being granted is not merely erf No 6287 of such a division, such a district and such a province, but also consists of the house which has been identified as the house built on that specific piece of land, and that the two correspond. This shows how important it is that the exactitude of this profession be maintained at all times. The recognition we are according this profession is extremely important, with a view to the whole question of real rights in this country.

There were already members of this profession working in the Cape Province as far back as 1834. It is interesting to note that our old Scottish forefathers were not only the leaders of the church in this country, but also had a considerable hand in the land surveyors’ profession. If one drives through the Republic of South Africa today, it is interesting to take note of the descriptive names they gave to places. A certain Scotsman was the land surveyor in the Eastern Province and there one finds New Little England, Groot Little England and Little England repeatedly. One also finds various other descriptive names. In another part of the country one finds a place called Hotazel. It must have been very hot there. One also finds places like Kraamhoogte, Jakkalsdraai, Tietiesbaai, Varswaterbaai and many others that are very descriptive. Therefore the land surveyors’ profession is not only important as a profession, but it is also extremely interesting historically. In our history the land surveyors’ profession went about its work in a very descriptive way.

This profession is now being placed on a new level and in a new dimension. I welcome this, since, with a view to the present situation in this country, it is imperative that land surveying should undergo certain changes, without the precision and accuracy it gives to the registration of real land rights in South Africa being lost, so that a faster and cheaper service and be given to the public. When I speak of a faster service, I have aerial photos in mind, for example. I am sure the hon member for Pretoria West can illustrate that much better than I can. However, I think that as far as those two facets are concerned, he would immediately say that I am right and that I do not have to go into that any further. In any case, we shall have to do something about that. I am thinking specifically of the problems that exist at present with regard to Soweto and other places. Providing these services more cheaply is essential as well, with a view to the population structure in South Africa in respect of which a service has to be rendered. Because the legislation before us assists us in overcoming the problems we have at present, we welcome it and take pleasure in supporting it.

Mr Speaker, I should like to congratulate the hon member for Vasco on his speech and say to him that we, too, support this legislation. He raised a very important point, and that is that we are in fact applying self-regulation today.

†It is not the function of this Parliament to run the affairs of land surveyors but it is our function to give them a charter and recognition of the fact that they can run their own affairs efficiently. We in this country have much to be thankful for in our land surveyors. There must be few places in the world where one can walk into the Government Printing Office and buy a 1:50 000 scale map of any part of South Africa for a very nominal amount. Not only can one buy that map but one can also buy a map that is constantly being improved, updated and metricated. One can also go into any Surveyor-General’s office and order for a very nominal amount a copy of any diagram of any property that one wishes. That is a great heritage. As the hon member for Pretoria West has pointed out it goes back many centuries. In this country we have been blessed with an outstanding system of land registration, measurement and mapping. Like our independent and professional public service it is a heritage, as the hon member for Vasco said, of Scottish and British tradition. In fact, hon members who still climb Table Mountain may have visited Maclear’s Beacon which is a memorial to a very famous astronomer who from here in the Cape developed the triangulation of South Africa which has been the basis of our outstanding land measurement system. That is something which we rightly can be proud of. I believe the House should enthusiastically support this Bill because it is going to improve standards and professional qualities in this important field.

A very important aspect of the measurement of land is to prevent disputes. We all know that people such as farmers will dispute strongly over land, but everybody knows that there is a solution to any dispute over a boundary, namely simply to go and consult the Surveyor-General’s diagram and, if necessary, to call in a qualified land surveyor. One knows that as soon as he has done the survey that is the end of the argument because every piece of land in this country is measured accurately. I am pleased that the hon member for Vasco mentioned the potential problems that we could have in a place such as Soweto and in other Black urban areas. The hon member for Pretoria West mentioned that as well. It is vital that we do not sow problems for the future and profits for the attorneys by allowing land divisions which are not accurate. It is therefore important to maintain the highest standards of accuracy. Even some 130 years ago Maclear, who surveyed the Western Cape up to a point west of Port Elizabeth, was only something like one Cape foot in error over that whole distance, taking into account his limited instruments. That was a tribute to accurate surveying. I think it is important that we in this House should realize that we are serving the public interest in the best possible way by supporting this Bill and wishing the land surveyors, hydrographic surveyors and all other surveyors all the very best in maintaining their standards in the future. It is therefore with great warmth that we as a party support this Bill.

Mr Speaker, I should like to thank all hon members who participated in this debate sincerely for their support of this Bill. A few points were raised during the course of the speeches, but the debate took place in a very genial atmosphere.

The hon member for Vasco and the hon member for Stellenbosch are both attorneys and I do just want to point out that although the land surveyors have perhaps always been accurate in the past, this has not always been applied in practice. In this regard I should like to tell a story which was related to me as being the truth. Many years ago there was a hunter, a certain Barnard, who went hunting in the Northern Transvaal regularly. On one occasion he set up camp in the north-east where the borders of the Transvaal, Mozambique and the then Rhodesia all converged.

In the vicinity of Soutpansberg!

Yes, more or less in that area. He set up camp next to the peg which served as a marker between the three countries. He often hunted illegally and the police were often on his trail, but when the police from Mozambique were looking for him, he was always on the Transvaal side, and when the police from the Transvaal were in the vicinity, he would move the marker a little to the west, which of course meant that his camp was on the Mozambiquan side. In this way the police could never catch him.

The hon member for Stellenbosch referred to good neighbourliness, a subject which was raised by a former MP for Stellenbosch, and I can also tell a story about this. There is a farm by the name of Buysfontein in my constituency, one of the oldest farms in that area. There were two brothers who were arguing about the division of their land, and as a result of the dreadful quarrel between the two, each refused to attach his fence to the other’s fencing post. Consequently, each of them planted his own fencing post approximately five feet from that of the other and spanned 12 strand wire fences to indicate a clear border between the two farms.

The hon member for Vasco referred to clauses 14 and 24 and he said that possibly a problem could arise because someone suffering from some mental disorder or another is not disqualified by the provisions of this clause. However, I think that this is in fact covered, since clause 14 provides that a member of the education advisory committee must vacate his post if he ceases to be a professor or a lecturer at a university, or if he ceases to be in the service of the technikon concerned, or if he ceases to be in the service of the State, or if he ceases to be a member of the council, or if he is appointed in terms of section 12(1)(f) and he ceases to be president of the council. However, I assume that someone who suffers from some mental disorder or another will therefore also be disqualified ipso facto from acting as a professor at a university or from being a member of the council. [Interjections.] I think the hon member’s problem is therefore solved by clause 14.

The hon member for Pretoria West is an expert in his field, and I want to address a special word of thanks to him. One can see that he knows under what circumstances the council referred to in the legislation has to function and that he is also aware of the necessity for such a council.

The hon member for Bezuidenhout raised a number of problems and he said that he intended moving amendments with regard to certain points. I think it would be wrong in principle to reject in advance any amendment the hon member might move. However, this legislation has been approved by the professional institution concerned. The civil engineers did, in fact, oppose it, but after a long discussion they agreed that provision could be made for their objection by proclamation. When this council comes into operation they will to a large extent be able to eliminate most of the objections raised by the hon member in determining their work in future. Therefore I do not think it is necessary to amend this legislation. However, if the hon member wishes to move amendments, we are prepared to listen to them and to consider them on merit. However, I had hoped that this legislation would elicit so little criticism that we would not even need to commit it.