Mr. Chairman, in the course of the debate on this Vote the Deputy Minister and I should like to make a number of announcements, and I think it would be as well for me to make some of them now—by which it is not my intention to anticipate or “vreet op”—to use the colloquial Afrikaans term—speeches of hon. members on either side of the House—so that hon. members may react to them in a meaningful fashion, because few of us have more than one turn to speak. For that reason I want to make some of these announcements now.

In the first instance, I have pleasure in announcing that a final decision has been taken by the Government in regard to the provision of permanent accommodation for the President’s Council in Cape Town. As hon. members are aware, the President’s Council is currently housed in a rented building. As part of the Department of Community Development’s ongoing endeavour to protect historical buildings and structures for posterity, and at the same time to utilize them appropriately, it was decided to restore the historic Good Hope Theatre at the upper end of Stalplein, and, together with an adjacent part of Tuynhuis, which is not utilized for the purposes for which Tuynhuis is used, as well as other structures in the grounds behind Tuynhuis, to covert it into permanent accommodation for the President’s Council. No changes will be made to the façades, and the historical buildings and the construction of offices and related facilities will take place with the minimum internal alterations. Planning of these services has already started.

†Furthermore it has been decided to simultaneously proceed with the redevelopment of Stalplein with a view to enhancing the dignity of the Parliamentary complex. The planning provides, inter alia, for underground parking areas as well as efficient security and access control to the Parliamentary complex as a whole. A suitable park atmosphere, together with the cenotaph and grave of the unknown soldier, will be created to complement the historical surroundings and buildings of the entire Parliamentary complex. The excavation work on the underground parking will commence immediately Parliament goes into recess and it is expected that the project will be completed by the second half of 1985.

I should also like to refer to the Budget speech of the hon. the Minister of Finance and to announce details of the improved benefits to enable especially young people to own their own homes. In the first instance the terms of the State-assisted home ownership saving scheme have been improved with effect from 1 April 1983 by: (a) increasing the maximum amount that may be saved from R10 000 to R20 000; (b) increasing from 2% to 3% per annum the State’s contribution to the interest rate payable on savings; and (c) allowing an investor to withdraw 50% of his savings on a once only basis without forfeiture of the State’s interest contribution, provided the amount withdrawn is used to buy a building plot. In future the State’s 3% contribution to augment the building society interest rate will be payable for a maximum of 10 years. This period will, in the case of existing investors, commence on 1 April 1983.

*The Government’s new interest subsidy scheme to promote the erection of modest dwellings will come into effect on 1 June 1983. In terms of this scheme a subsidy equal to 20% of the monthly interest on a bond registered in favour of an acknowledged financial institution, will be paid to single and married homeowners who comply with the following conditions: (a) the owner may not own or previously have owned another home; (b) owners receiving any other form of housing subsidy of whatever nature are excluded from participation; (c) the relevant dwelling unit, whether a house or flat, must be newly erected, i.e. not previously occupied; and (d) the cost of the dwelling—excluding the cost of the land, and I want to emphasize that—may not exceed R40 000. This is a change effected since the scheme was announced to allow a little more play, since the prices of stands differ from place to place. The subsidy will be payable on an amount of up to R40 000. The loan may, however, exceed this amount provided all other requirements, including requirements usually laid down by financial institutions, are met. To facilitate administration, the subsidy will be a fixed monthly amount calculated in accordance with a formula with a loan redemption term of 20 years. The subsidy will be payable for a maximum period of five years, but the rate at which the subsidy is paid is subject to review in the event of fluctuations in bond interest rates. At prevailing rates a borrower will receive a monthly subsidy of R88,97 on an amount of R40 000. Full particulars of the scheme are contained in a statement which is ready for release to the news media, and I shall also hand copies of it at this juncture to the chief spokesmen of all the parties in the House.

†I have another announcement to make. As a result of the escalation of costs in the building industry over the past few years, it is frequently alleged that it has become impossible for young people to afford a newly-built dwelling unit. Our young people will, however, have to resign themselves to the fact that unless expectations, standards and demanos are lowered to within their financial capabilities, they will most probably never succeed in their endeavour to become home-owners. The Department is confident that, provided young people are prepared to accept more modest housing by reducing floor areas and paying closer attention to economical space usage in design planning and by choosing less expensive fittings and finishings, it will still be possible to build a comfortable home for approximately R35 000. To prove to the public that these are not just words, the Department, in collaboration with building contractors, developers and financial institutions will shortly embark on a project to build a number of show houses in Pretoria. The emphasis will be on modest standards and economical planning. Full particulars of the project, including the date of the official opening and the period for the public to view the completed dwelling units, will be released in due course.

*I shall invite all members to that occasion.

There is also another matter which I think will interest hon. members a great deal. The Housing Act was amended last year to enable the National Housing Commission to borrow additional funds on the private money market for housing development. To date, significant success has been achieved with the issue by the Housing Commission. Not only was the issue fully subscribed, but it was also possible to negotiate satisfactory terms. The issue has already proved that banking groups in particular regard the stock of the Housing Commission as a sound investment instrument. An issue for R50 million at the end of November 1982 attracted applications to the value of R55,6 million, while an issue for R75 million at the end of April 1983 attracted R95 million. Short-term issues have proved the most attractive. Thus applications amounting to R83 million were received with the second series of issues, whereas long-term issues attracted only R12 million. The department hopes to achieve still better results with further issues later this year. A door has now been opened whereby any financial institution or related organization has the opportunity to channel funds specifically to housing.

Last but not least, I have a very gratifying announcement to make. This is that the officials of my department have decided to assist those of their colleagues who do not own a house, by themselves establishing a utility company which operates on the basis of monthly savings. In particular I want to congratulate the Director-General, Mr. Van Blommestein, who took the initiative, as well as his people, on this undertaking. It is well-known to hon. members that in the recent past the Department of Community Development has taken the initiative in promoting the establishment of housing utility companies. For example the department held a very successful seminar on housing utility companies in Cape Town during November last year, and the interest generated there has already borne fruit. The Housing Act was also amended recently to make it easier for the National Housing Commission to provide financing to housing utility companies. Needless to say, housing is a matter of great earnest to me and to everybody concerned with it in the Department of Community Development. Sir, you must bear in mind that there are many families and young people in the ranks of the department who find it extremely difficult or impossible to afford a roof of their own over their heads, despite the generous interest subsidy that is made available to officials by the Government.

†I am therefore proud to be able to announce that the officials of this Department have decided to embark on a self-help effort and are in the process of establishing a housing utility company. This utility company is being established by the officials of Community Development for the officials of Community Development and funds to get going will come from the pockets of the officials themselves in the form of voluntary contributions and donations. Such funds will be utilized primarily to build housing units which our officials can afford. Owing to the strong demand for housing these funds will initially have to be augmented by conventional sources of finance. However, where there is a will, there’s a way. The establishment of this housing utility company is indeed commendable and it is trusted that it will be so successful that others will follow the example which the Department’s officials have set. This gesture has a special message, namely that employees in each and every sector ought to unite in an effort to generate funds to provide new housing by making small monthly contributions.

Mr. Chairman, we are pleased to hear the hon. the Minister’s announcements. With regard to housing I would like to say that the hon. member for Sea Point will deal with that in more detail, but I think it will be appropriate to say that housing utilities in large measure depends for their success on good management by people who are highly motivated. While I am sure that the housing utility fund started by officials of the Department of Community Development will have excellent management, one cannot always be sure that every other one will have and I believe we should sound one note of warning in that regard.

It is good to see that the hon. the Minister and his Department appreciate the fact that the standard of our housing is sometimes too high. It is pleasing to see that he is preparing to make it possible for people to build houses, provided they are modest rather than luxurious. We are interested and pleased to hear that the old Goede Hoop theatre is to be suitably restored. One cannot, however, forebear from imagining how the cartoonists will enjoy the fact that the President’s Council has to meet in a theatre. I know that some people say this place is like a theatre and it is the committees where things actually happen. When we are in the glare of public eye, we act as if in a theatre. We are also pleased that the hon. the Minister values historic buildings and believes that they should be used and restored. In that respect, I think, he is in line with popular thinking in appreciating our historic buildings. We do, however, look forward to acquiring more information about where the new chambers are going to meet. In the annual report the hon. the Minister refers to the 14-storey building in Plein Street. In the course of today and tomorrow’s Vote in committee perhaps he will let us know what his plans are in view of that fact that as part of the new Constitution, Cape Town is to remain the legislative capital. I am sure everybody would like to have more information on that.

It is some nine years ago that I first became a member of this House although there was a short interruption which has ended. It is also an opportunity and a privilege to open the debate for the Opposition in this particular Vote.

The Department of Community Development enjoys the fifth largest appropriation, which is in excess of R1 billion and includes the building which this Department does for the Department of Defence. Despite that, the Defence Vote is three times this Vote. Apart from the housing function which will be discussed fully later in this debate, this Department carries on certain other key functions. Perhaps the most fundamental one is the work of the Surveyor-General and the Deeds Office. Without these two basic services being run to the highest of standards, the ownership of fixed property and the market in it would be a jungle-like existence. The huge role which the Department has in caring for and erecting Government buildings is a vital one which is often overlooked. The Government Printer now also falls under this hon. Minister and I was pleased to see that in this financial year it manufactured 19 000 fewer rubber stamps than the previous year. The Department’s annual report is ready in good time and it is well set-out. The memorandum on the building programme is also very useful.

I was pleased to see that the Department assisted with R231 million worth of building and development in the independent states that were formerly part of South Africa. That underscores the fact that despite independence, a South African identity remains. The printing of postage stamps for these states is further proof of that inter-dependence. I would, however, ask the hon. the Minister to look at two questions from the report which he might like to answer. The one we have already dealt with and that is where the different chambers will be housed. The other one is why it was necessary to bulldoze for 47 kilometers for a fence line for the Venda boundary and where exactly is this boundary? It is mentioned on page 47 of the report. I was also pleased to note that the Department will now assist farmers with fencing because farmers, certainly in East Griqualand, have a problem on the Transkei border in that the fences are falling into disrepair. They cannot have the fence repaired easily because the Transkei is a foreign country and there is nobody to share the expenditure—even if it is a simple six-strand cattle barbed wire fence.

On behalf of my party I would also like to thank the civil servants in the Department for their courtesy and assistance at all times. The so-called rationalization of the Civil Service has affected this Department quite severely and I think the civil servants have done a good job in re-organizing and they have had our sympathy as well. The hon. the Minister and his Deputies have always been helpful and efficient and they have sought consensus with us in so far as our respective political convictions allow.

The hon. the Minister is at the moment involved with two commissions and one Select Committee. The first commission relates to township establishment and the second commission is the Strijdom Commission which has been looking at the Group Areas Act. The Select Committee is on rent control. I hope that the hon. the Minister will give us some up-to-date information on these commissions and the Select Committee.

Perhaps the most revealing aspect of the report is on page V in the preface and I quote: “In the process the Department accepted a broad responsibility for the provision of alternative accommodation for those people who had to be housed in their own residential areas. For all practical purposes this comprehensive task has now been completed. The Department will therefore in future have to provide fewer houses for resettlement purposes.” This appears to spell the end of the hateful and cruel removals under the Group Areas Act but sadly, unless Judge Strijdom otherwise decides and the Government agrees with him, it is not the end of the Act which is one of the most obnoxious and inhuman pillars of apartheid. This Act and its application have created rage, raw resentment and a determination to fight apartheid. This hon. Minister, and to an extent his Government, are moving slowly in the direction of reform, but they must move faster. The tough political attitude in Mitchell’s Plain on sport and other areas including opposition to the new constitutional proposals, are in large measure the result of many people there being at the receiving end of the Group Areas Act. It is an Act like the Group Areas Act which has contributed to the hate and desperation that motivate people such as those who placed the bomb in Pretoria last Friday. [Interjections.] Sadly, there are many people of colour, who while not going to the length of placing bombs, see the Pretoria explosion as the logical fruit of the apartheid tree. This hon. Minister and his colleagues are now planning another recruitment drive for the ANC and the PAC and a further radicalization of Blacks in the planned removal of people from Langa and Nyanga to Khayelithsa. These townships are being moved for racialistic reasons only. Langa has been established since the early 1930s. The people there were originally moved from Ndabeni. For years these people and this township have been wickedly neglected but now, because of greed and the racial prejudices of this Government, led in particular by the hon. member for Tyger-vallei, these people are to be moved. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I rise to give the hon. member a chance to complete his speech.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the hon. member for his kindness in allowing me to finish my speech. Apart from the cost in infrastructure, new housing and transport, there will be an even greater alienation of Black people because they will rightly perceive that they are being moved and put out of sight and therefore out of the sensitive Nationalist mind, especially that of the hon. member for Tygervallei who is the main mover in this matter. I wonder if the fact that there is a Conservative Party meeting tonight very close to his constituency, has been a factor—I know it is in the hon. the Minister’s constituency but it is the same area—in motivating that hon. member to move for this change. The hon. the Minister and the hon. member for Tygervallei did a fine job in modernizing and upgrading Epping Garden Village, but the National Party will not allow the same process in Langa, simply because the inhabitants are Black. The Nationalist Party must not complain if we are treated like the polecat of the world because we treat our own people, who make a vital, if humble, contribution to the prosperity of the Mother City, like polecats in the land of their birth. The people of Langa have sinned in the eyes of this Government because they were born black. Why this Government brothers to have a Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs and Information, I do not know because the simple and true facts of Nationalist policy destroy all this hon. Deputy Minister’s expensively purchased credibility.

The planned removed of Blacks in Cape Town highlights the pattern of how the Group Areas Act has been applied to create distorted and deformed cities which are geared to make it easy for the rich, who are mostly White, and uncomfortable for the poor who are mostly Black. The annual losses of the South African Transport Services on commuter travel are only the tip of the iceberg of the costs of the running of an ideological urban planning madness.

Mr. Chairman, I want to suggest, with all due respect, that this hon. member is making a speech which has absolutely nothing to do with this Vote and that he be ruled out of order.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North may proceed.

Mr. Chairman, none of these things can be implemented except under the Group Areas Act which falls under this Minister. [Interjections.] At present 87% of White South Africans 87% of Indian South Africans and 74% of Coloured South Africans are urbanized. I do not have time to quote the Riekert Report and its statistics on Blacks, but they are food for serious thought. At the conference of the Afrikaanse Handelsinstituut yesterday we were told to expect 10 million people to move into our cities within the next 20 years. Most of these people will be Black and, as Dr. Jan van der Horst of the Old Mutual pointed out, this drought of the century will send them to the cities even faster. This hon. Minister has shown a refreshing flexibility in dealing with the housing problem and I believe that he and the hon. the Minister of Co-operation and Development need to inform the public as soon as possible as to how they intend to deal with this human tidal wave which is inexorably moving towards our cities and large towns.

The hon. the Minister still has in his possession large tracts of sterile land in our major cities. In Durban there is Cato Manor, in Cape Town District Six and in Port Elizabeth South End. Apart from the cost to the taxpayer the loss of revenue to the local authorities and the racial friction generated by using the Group Areas Act instead of the Slums Act or the Urban Renewal Act to clear these areas, I believe they can be developed into really fine urban environments. Sadly the Minister does not seem to be involving the local authorities nor the public in debate on the development of these areas. The Zonnebloem plan for District Six is an example of a proposal which is presented as a fait accompli and announced on 14 May in Die Burger. I want to earnestly request the Minister to involve as wide a cross section of the society as possible in planning these areas. High density living can be congenial, comfortable and create caring communities for rich and poor if sensitively developed. Will the Minister not rather involve the community in planning Zonnebloem and these other areas in South Africa? The Cape Town City Council is obviously already concerned about the plans and I believe that we ought to have as much public involvement in town planning decisions as we possibly can.

*In respect of Zonnebloem, too, I should like to ask the Minister whether he could enlighten us on the house which was apparently sold at a tremendous profit. I find it difficult to believe that the department could allow anything of the kind, and I can only deduce that there must be some reason or other.

I shall be surprised if the question of overcrowding is not raised in this debate. I should like to state the standpoint of our party clearly. We believe that all amenities which are provided with the public’s money, with their taxes, should be available to all, regardless of colour.

†If those amenities are so crowded that they cannot be comfortably used by people of whatever colour, then either additional facilities or proper crowd control must be provided. This must always be without racial restriction. The hon. member for Bryanston told me that some weeks ago on a beautiful weekend he and his family had considerable difficulty finding somewhere in the Peninsula to have a braai. Almost every spot was crowded with other people. Sadly some Whites would immediately see the other people in terms of colour and seek a solution along these lines. The solution is to be found in the creation of more facilities. Nobody wants to be crushed in a crowd or stand in long queues, whether he be White, Black or Coloured. No decent citizen wants to be mugged, pick-pocketed or burgled, whether he be White, Black or Coloured. As the living standards and aspirations of South Africans of colour rise, they will want the same type of amenity that Whites expect and enjoy. I would like to ask the Minister to meet with the large local authorities and to draw up requirements for amenities that will not produce overcrowding, that will be properly maintained and controlled and, most important, that suitable financial assistance and/or loans be granted to the relevant authorities or private enterprise to provide adequate facilities for all in South Africa.

We cannot escape the realities of South Africa and the Durban City Council as a prime example, amongst others, is approaching this sensitive matter in a sensible, just and determined way, conscious of the prejudices and the realities of a multiracial city. That city council’s foresight will result in good relations between all members of the communities of Durban in the future. This Minister must continue to work towards deracializing public amenities but must also provide adequate and comfortable amenities. If he does not, we will have endless trouble as our cities expand dramatically in the next 25 years. I believe that this Minister is concerned to see sensible reform in South Africa. I believe that in this country we are now getting an attitude amongst the Government which talks about, in Afrikaans, “dinge wat haalbaar is en dinge wat onuithoudbaar is of houdbaar”. That shows a pragmatism and good sense which are commendable. [Time expired.]

Before I react to the speech of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North, I just want to refer to the statements the hon. the Minister made at the start of the discussion of this Vote. The first is the statement in connection with the housing utility company established by the department and the announcements in connection with the improved benefits to enable young people to purchase a first home and in connection with the permanent accommodation of the President’s Council. In reacting briefly to these statements, I want to say that they are futher proof of the earnest intention of this side of the House to bring housing and accommodation within the reach of everyone in South Africa. I think these statements emphasize the fact that the housing process and the fact that a house has to be placed within reach of everyone in South Africa is of as much strategic importance in South Africa for the survival of an orderly civilization here as is an own armaments factory or an own Sasol or an own strategic industry in whatever sphere it may be. The provision of housing, the accessibility of housing to everyone plays a key role in the peaceful co-existence of nations in South Africa. I want to congratulate the Minister most sincerely on these announcements.

I want to refer to the report of the Director-General that has been tabled. The report is timeous and comprehensive and brings home to the Committee once more the tremendous task facing this department. We want to convey the appreciation of this Committee to the Director-General, his staff, the head office and the regional representatives for the very important work they are doing, for the key work that this department is doing. We particularly appreciate their accessibility to us as public representatives to discuss problems with them. When the hon. the Minister announced the sales strategy, he mentioned the fact that an expert would be appointed to co-ordinate the sale of 500 000 dwelling units and to liaise with the private sector. Mr. Johan Kruger has been appointed and I want to congratulate him most sincerely on his appointment. He is a personal acquaintance of mine and I am grateful that his expertise can be added to the pool of housing expertise in the Department of Community Development. We as a country can be very proud of the quality, calibre and integrity of the officials involved in this very important key function in the future of South Africa.

Unfortunately I do not have much time in this debate and I want now to return to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North. To start with, the hon. member said that he had been in Parliament for nine years with a single short break. Having listened to the hon. member and in particular to the sting in his speech, I want to say: Thank goodness for that break. The hon. member touched on a few matters to which I feel obliged to react. I shall return to the matter of historic buildings later. A committee has been appointed to investigate the questions dealing with rent control and sectional title. The hon. the Deputy Minister will elaborate on this further. The question of rent control is being solved in the sense that rent control will be phased out, but with the retention of the protection of those people who need protection. The report will be tabled in the near future. Legislation has been passed dealing with sectional title matters. I am personally of the opinion that sales under sectional title form an element that is placing tremendous pressure on rental increases. Sooner or later this aspect will have to be investigated. Quite possibly the solution will lie in the fact that sales under sectional title may take place but that only the purchaser may then utilize the accommodation so that speculation can be eliminated. I want to come back now to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North and the unfair, scandalous and reprehensible references the hon. member made to the Chief Whip, the hon. member for Tygervallei.

The “belhamel” (ringleader)!

The hon. member for Tygervallei is not the “Belhamel”. This entire problem in connection with the Black situation in the Western Cape is being dealt with in a co-ordinated manner…

Order! It is not permissible for an hon. member to refer to another hon. member as a “belhamel”. I request the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North to withdraw that.

It is a good and idiomatic Afrikaans expression, but I withdraw it.

The action in connection with Nyanga, Langa and Guguletu is the result of a decision taken by the Cape congress. No individual member can be singled out as being the cause of certain action in connection with the presence of Blacks in the Western Cape. The hon. member for Tygervallei’s record is there for all to see. He has devoted his public life to providing housing for those persons who need it. To single out the hon. member as if he were at the forefront of those wishing to deny housing to people who need it is devoid of all truth. The remarks made by the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North are therefore uncalled for. I shall tell the hon. member why. If the hon. member wants evolutionary change, perhaps in the direction in which the hon. member is striving by means of a 99-year leasehold or in any other way, this is not the way to do it. The attack made by the hon. member was counterproductive. It makes change that can take place in an evolutionary manner more difficult. Such behaviour is unworthy of this Committee and the hon. member.

I want to discuss the activities of the department against the background of a national goal for South Africa. A primary goal in South Africa is the maintenance of order and stability because order and stability are necessary for evolutionary change. [Time expired.]

Loyal to the traditions of this Parliament, I rise to give the hon. member an opportunity to complete his speech.

The sting in the hon. member’s remark did not escape my notice. The national goal in South Africa is the maintenance of order and stability because evolutionary change can take place in a climate of order and stability. The economy can grow and the quality of life of everyone can be increased accordingly. In a climate of order and stability the constraints on the infrastructure of human relations can be eliminated. I want to single out the Department of Community Development, in conjunction with the hon. the Minister and the hon. the Deputy Minister, as the instrument working for the creation of order and stability in South Africa. This department is building houses and schools for all communities, except schools for Whites which are built by the provinces. Houses are being built, schools are being built and by doing so the department is creating living space and living opportunities for everyone in South Africa. By creating living space and living opportunities for everyone in South Africa one develops a community of reasonable people. Because of these reasonable people in a climate of order and stability the risk to survival here at the southern tip of Africa is lessened. The primary function of the department is to ensure that there is a climate of order and peace in South Africa in the creation of living opportunities.

There is another aspect I want to emphasize and that is the fact that the policy of the department has changed during the past year to a pragmatic, flexible policy which does not seek to build castles in the air but houses. The department’s policy is aimed at what can be achieved. The State cannot provide housing on its own. The private sector must participate. Standards have to be lowered to make housing accessible to everyone. This pragmatic policy, this change in the atmosphere and the fact that the department wants to make it as easy as possible and not as difficult as possible for everyone to have a home of their own, can be ascribed to the approach of the hon. the Minister and his officials. We want to thank him for this.

In the short time at my disposal I want to single out a few highlights of the work of the department, and the sale of 500 000 houses is an investment in order, stability and peace in South Africa. We hope it is a success. There is a tremendous backlog in housing. We must not allow this sales transaction to distract our attention from this acute problem. There is a backlog of 242 000 houses in South Africa and unless assistance is forthcoming from the private sector and other methods can be found to eliminate this housing shortage, the position will deteriorate into the slum conditions prevalent in Third World countries. If the housing backlog is to be eliminated within the next ten years and the ratio between the contributions from the private sector and the Government remain the same, it will cost the State in the vicinity of R1 000 million per annum to eliminate the backlog. No Government can afford that. In the housing process we are seeking a partnership between the private sector and the public sector to overcome the crisis. In my opinion the department is rapidly on the way to succeeding in this.

I want to refer to a programme of the department which is proceeding, on a very low-key level and which does not receive the necessary attention, namely the wonderful conservation programme in connection with cultural history buildings. I want to mention a few of these. At Stellenbosch there is Fleurbaai. This is an old historic building on the farm Fleurbaai and the wine cellar and slave quarters are still there. There is also a stone cattle kraal and a henhouse. The farm on which these buildings stand was presented to Pierre le Frere in 1695. Restoration work is currently being planned. It is anticipated that in or around January 1984 tenders totalling R525 000 will be called for. This is a remarkable and praiseworthy effort to preserve the cultural history treasures of South Africa. Newlands House is another example. This historic building was erected by Governor Ryk Tulbagh in 1751. A fire destroyed the building but restoration is under way and the building can be used for some or other purpose, for example, as a ministerial residence. We have Bertra House. In Pretoria we have the old Agriculture publication building which is to be restored at a cost of R270 000 and the Palace of Justice which is also in Pretoria. What is very interesting about the Palace of Justice is that President Kruger laid the cornerstone in 1897. After the war had interrupted the construction of the building, it was completed in 1900, after which the British forces used it as a hospital. This precious cultural treasure which is part of our South African heritage is also being restored at a cost of R3 million. Another example is the Union Buildings in Pretoria. The planning and erection of the Union Buildings took from 1910 to 1914. No restoration has been done since. An intensive investigation is being made to preserve the glory of the Union Buildings and to establish the atmosphere of authority in Pretoria. The estimated cost of the restoration of the Union Buildings in Pretoria is R3 750 000. I can also mention the old Presidency in Bloemfontein where major restoration work is under way and various other restoration programmes of culturally historic value. As important as the building of houses by the department in South Africa is, so is the wonderful contrast to this, where the department preserves historic buildings, houses built 50, 100 and 150 years ago, for posterity. I want to conclude my contribution to this debate with the thought that the department has its roots in the past but, with the housing programme of 500 000 houses and the sale of these houses, its policy is also aimed at the future. In this way the department ensures that South Africa will survive and that everyone in South Africa will enjoy order, peace and stability.

Mr. Chairman, it is always a pleasure to listen to the hon. member for Bellville. I think we can congratulate the Minister on the announcements he made here today. There are one or two exceptions. I think it is better for the President’s Council to be housed in the rented building because history will prove that the new dispensation will not really get off the ground. I do not think we should spend money at this stage on a building that will not be utilized in the future. However, I shall not pursue the matter.

The loan issues of the National Housing Council show a large loan capital in the short term. However, in the long term this is not supported by the general public. This is an indication that as is the case in America, for example, in Chicago, Illinois and elsewhere, there is a lack of confidence in the Government of the country. When there is no longer confidence in a country’s Government, this first becomes apparent from the attitudes towards immovable property. One notes that the long-term investment is not susceptible to issues. This is a bad sign I notice nowadays.

When we consider the recent achievements of the department and the Minister in connection with housing, we cannot attack them. I agree wholeheartedly with the plan in terms of which 500 000 houses will be sold. However, I should like to know from the hon. the Minister how many of those houses will be sold to Whites and how many to non-Whites. However, who started this idea? I want to quote from a speech of an old friend of mine with whom I am well acquainted, S. P. Barnard! In 1976 (Hansard, Wednesday, 23 June, col. 10257) I asked the then Minister, Marais Steyn, the following—

Then I went on to talk about Crown Gardens. On that occasion I asked the Minister: Give every resident, every lessee of a rental scheme the opportunity to purchase the house he is leasing. The Minister said to me at the time: “Very well, we shall do so”. It took the present Minister to implement this. I want to tell this Minister that he and the department have done a great deal to implement that idea. Let us consider what I was told at that stage, because it is on that basis that I want my people to benefit. At that stage my people were told that they would only have to pay for the cost of construction of those houses because they had lived in them for so many years. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister whether he still adheres to that point of view. I want to tell the hon. the Minister we should not go too far with delimitation and the various transfer costs in many of our towns, particularly in Black towns. The Americans use a method in terms of which they take out a small insurance policy to ensure a person’s right to a plot. Survey fees are then not necessary. While many of the decisions are still in the smelting pot it is necessary for us to consider insurance rather than the delimitation of a plot. Conditions of title and the like are all matters that can cause problems in our complex situation. However, I want to ask another question today. I do not want to argue with the Minister about the philosophy of his party because I do not think a Minister can go beyond the philosophy of his party. I question the appointment of judges to report on complex matters such as, for example, the Group Areas Act. A judge can only give a legal opinion and a fair opinion on who do and do not have houses. That is why I feel that the 17 000 people in Pretoria and Johannesburg who do not yet have accommodation are first in line. I think the judge will recognize this. The importance of the hon. the Minister’s decision, for example, to allow the sale of houses—as I have already mentioned in this speech—lies in the fact that the people now in those houses will no longer simply be lessees but purchasers of those houses.

What is, however, the other problem here? The other problem is that there are many people who need Government subsidies but who do not live in Government houses. We are providing a home and a plot for a person who is already in a house. I agree with that. However, there are serious problem as for as many people in the urban areas of Pretoria and Johannesburg are concerned. I am asking that, particularly in the southern suburbs of Johannesburg, we should again start a major scheme for economic and sub-economic housing. Nobody can say today that the Government is not in earnest about housing. I just do not agree with the hon. the Minister’s philosophy on many of these matters. Many left-wingers have so influenced the Government that they are more concerned about the noises being made in the English newspapers than about the people who really have a primary civil right in this country, namely the Whites.

I am extremely gratified that we are able to say today that the Department of Community Development has become a full-fledged department that has done a great deal for housing over the years. However, we must also bear in mind that this department has to work half-days at the moment. They can only take calls up to 12h00 owing to the number of calls which come through. It must be very frustrating for an official who has the problems of homeseekers at heart and want to provide people with houses if he can only receive calls between 08h00 and 12h00.

I do not have time to elaborate on all the other items. However, I want to tell the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North that I think he made a most unfair statement in this Committee today. I think it was inappropriate. I do not believe in being on the Opposition side and striking out at people who also have a standpoint. However, why did he refer to a bomb attack and people who do not receive their due? As far as housing is concerned and the contribution of population groups in this regard I really feel that our people of colour cannot complain when it comes to demands by such people who constantly seek to tell them what to say. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, unfortunately there is not much I can react to in regard to what the hon. member for Langlaagte said except to give him the assurance as far as the accommodation of the President’s Council is concerned that the President’s Council is here to stay. He should take cognizance of that. As far as the question asked by the hon. member for Langlaagte in connection with the sale of houses to the various population groups is concerned, I can simply tell him that houses occupied by people belonging to the respective groups will be sold to those people. It is as clear as daylight.

I should like to take the opportunity this afternoon to thank the hon. the Minister, the Deputies who assist him and the officials of the department, on behalf of all the residents of Acacia Park for the privilege which we as parliamentarians and the officials have to live in departmental houses. I should also like to refer to the officials who make us as parliamentarians and the officials from other provinces feel at home when Parliament is in session. I want to express our appreciation for this. If I may single out some of them, I want to refer to the people responsible for the interior decorating. I think they must frequently need great patience because the carpets, chairs and curtains always have to match. However, I must say that those officials deserve the highest praise. I am also thinking here of the gardening section. I refer to our lawns, trees and shrubs which create such a peaceful atmosphere in Acacia Park. We should also like to thank these officials most sincerely in this regard. They are also responsible for the interior decorating of the residences of our Ministers and the State President as well as the upkeep of the gardens there. It is always a pleasure to see those gardens and we should like to express our thanks for this today. It is a privilege to live in those houses.

What about the gates?

Hon. members mention the gates. I should like to tell the hon. the Deputy Minister, who made the remark in a previous debate, that there are no problems with the buses. We arrive home safely every evening. Sometimes some of the hon. members are a little late in the mornings but the bus driver ensures that we still arrive here on time.

I want to refer in particular this afternoon to the land division of the department. This department is one of the major departments, one of the departments closest to our people outside. I want this afternoon to make a few references to the land division and also to our hon. the Deputy Minister who is responsible for this division. It is true that the State is one of the largest single landowners in the Republic. There is property belonging to the State in every city and town and this is also true of every rural area. Now we know that for many years it was the policy of the Government not readily to surrender land belonging to the State. However, I am extremely grateful that this policy has been abandoned and reviewed. I am able to say today that over the past three years 470 properties of the State have been alienated at an amount in excess of R19 million. The revenue obtained from the sale of that land can again be used for the benefit of our society. The decision to utilize again the land situated within the magisterial districts of local authorities for housing for our people is very important. However, we must just ensure that that land cannot be purchased for speculation purposes. We must also remember that for some years now the State has also been a taxpaper and has also to pay rates to local authorities. Last year R43,6 million was paid in tax to local authorities. An amount of R60 million has been budgeted for the coming year. In other words, this will also bring about savings. I just want to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister and his department also to give earnest attention to selling land which belongs to the State in rural areas so that it can be used in the most economical way.

I should now like to refer to the report of the Science Committee of the President’s Council in connection with the demographic trends in South Africa and quote a few paragraphs from it—

The committee is referring here particularly to the population explosion. I quote further—

We have to take cognizance of this. I should like to make a few remarks in the light of this statement. When we consider the statistics given in this report, we note that if the present fertility pattern is maintained, by the year 2150 the population will be as follows: Whites, 6 303 million; Asians, 6 641 million; Coloured, 50 million; and Blacks anywhere between 68 million and 188 million. When we consider the cost of providing housing for that growth, we find that the annual amount that will have to be provided for future housing, calculated at 60 000 units per annum at the 1980 erection cost of R13 000 per unit, will amount to R780 million by the year 2050 just to provide for additional housing. By the year 2150 it will cost almost R2 000 million per annum to provide housing. I should like to quote from the concluding remarks of the report—

I want to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister today. For a number of years we have emphasised certain matters. We have had a Land Festival Year, a Water Year, a Year of the Aged and a Year of the Handicapped. Let us begin by focusing on a Year of Community Development. This is very important, seen against the background of the report we received from the President’s Council. In order to succeed in this it is very important that we have the co-operation of the Press and the media so that in the course of a full year we can focus on community development in the Republic of South Africa. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I rise to give the hon. member the opportunity to complete his speech.

I thank the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North. I should just like to say a few words about people I feel should become involved on community development in our country. In the first place it is very important to bring the population explosion to the attention of our people. The number of people is increasing but the land is not increasing in size. This has to be emphasized. Community involvement and employer involvement is important. It is part of the policy of the Government that employers should also become involved in providing housing. I am extremely grateful to numerous large employers who do their bit. Unfortunately this cannot be said of all of them. There is also the responsibility of the churches. When it comes to community development, the Protestant must be prepared to work with the Catholic in the interests of community development. I think too of all our cultural associations and our service organizations. This is a case where the Rapportryer must be prepared to work with the Rotarian and a member of Lions International must be prepared to work with a Junior Rapportryer so that we can involve all the people in community development. I also want to refer to inputs from building societies. We have 11 building societies. They do their share but let us ask them to do even more. I think of our financial institutions. There are 52 financial institutions in our country. I also want to refer to the developers. There are 897 private developers. The duty and responsibility of the individual have to be clearly emphasized. The provision of housing places a responsibility on the individual as well. There is also the responsibility of the State. This is part of the policy of our Government. There is also the insurance sector. There are 98 registered insurance companies. Why do we not think in the direction of an insurance policy to ensure that a person will have a home when he retires? I think of welfare organizations. There are 4 500 registered welfare organizations in South Africa. There are also 594 local authorities in our country. Let us work together on the road ahead in the interests of community development. I am also thinking here about the standards of housing. I am also thinking of the important role the Building Research Institute of the CSIR could play. I also want to refer to Iscor which is having problems in disposing of its products. It is retrenching people because it cannot sell its products. Let us have a look at that. A former Prime Minister of this country lived in a corrugated iron house until the day he died. There was nothing wrong with that. I think here, for example, of our estate agents who make up 1 903 companies. Let us get those people involved. Then there is also the knowledge and experience gained by a utility company. Housing associations such as Garden Cities have been involved in the provision of housing for more than half a century. We are thinking of the Citizens’ Housing League. Let us get all their people together to consider what their responsibility is in connection with community development. Political parties must also work together. We must not attack each other when it comes to community facilities. I want this afternoon to tell the hon. member for Langlaagte who constantly talks about his people and how close to his heart they are, that this Parliament appointed a Select Committee to investigate the housing problem. That party’s representatives at those meetings are such that they are conspicuous by their absence. For ten days we as political parties held discussions to try to solve that problem. How many of those meetings did the CP attend? Three out of ten.

Now you are talking nonsense!

Go and look at the document that was tabled! I want to make an appeal. The report is a public document and has been tabled. I am asking the CP to become involved and not to be negative. Let the course we adopt in the future be a positive one.

I want to say in conclusion that we also have to cut across the colour bar. As far as this problem in connection with population growth and community facilities is concerned, we also have to tell people of colour that they have a responsibility.

It is a fine thing that you are extending the hand of friendship to them.

We shall only be successful if we work together in the right spirit and with the right attitude in regard to the problems in connection with the population explosion in South Africa and the concomitant problems in connection with community development in the interests of the community, the people outside whom we represent in Parliament.

Mr. Chairman, I trust that the hon. member for Wit-bank will excuse me if I do not follow his line. Somehow, it seems that I get involved in other people’s political arguments. However, I rather prefer my own to theirs.

I did not intend to make comments of the speech of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North, but he did make mention of the Durban situation and he indicated that the Durban City Council had removed racialism with regard to beaches with a certain delicacy and sensitivity. I cannot help but smile at the different approaches that different public representatives have to this matter. A Durban public representative—and I can assure hon. members that it was not me—referred in respect of this matter to the Chairman of MANCO and his handling of it as a latter day Mussolini and indicated that Mr. McLennon, the Chairman of MANCO, had said that objectors were wasting their time as it was not the number of signatures that mattered, but the quality of the objections. This same public representative’s opinion was that that was not exactly sensitive and delicate, but that it was deliberate and provocative. It is therefore rather remarkable what the differences are between different public representatives.

Who was the public representative?

That is irrelevant. It was not me. The point I am making is that that was a Durban representative and possibly, being a Pietermaritzburg representative, the hon. member does not really appreciate the feelings of Durban in this regard. We should like to make facilities available to all races. So far as I am personally concerned, I have no objection and my party has no objection to a certain area being opened for mixed communities. We do not quarrel with that as a concept; but we do quarrel with the concept of people being crowded to such an extent that it is likely to cause trouble. This is the situation where I must agree with the public representative, who felt that there was not much sensitivity in the way the matter was handled.

The most important function of the Department of Community Development, as I see it, is to provide or otherwise ensure that land is made available, serviced for the housing of all population groups. Furthermore, this land must be available where it is needed and at a price—this is very, important indeed, because there has not been much emphasis on the question of the price of this land—that the future occupiers or owners will be able to afford. To able to achieve these ends I believe that suitable land in the proximity of major urban areas, which is where our major problem lies, whether such land is Government owned, municipal owned or privately owned, must be put into use. I believe it is common cause with all of us that we accept that if we have large, inadequately housed sections of our population, it has a most destabilizing effect on the country. I believe that firm measures must be resorted to put suitable urban land and periurban land under use.

As an advocate of the free enterprise system I suppose that the suggestion that I propose making is not going to be very acceptable to some people. However, I believe that it is more important to have peace and prosperity and a properly housed population rather than to pander to greed, capitalism and profit. If necessary, if we cannot get the co-operation from the owners of this land, I believe that the Department must be prepared to expropriate the land. I do not only mean from the municipalities only, I am also talking about private entrepreneurs also. A lot of people do not realize that in, for example, the greater Durban area there is considerable land in the ownership of members of for example the Indian community who are determined that they are not going to allow that land could be used for housing unless and until they can get huge prices for it. Some of them are sitting on that land for their children and grandchildren. I know that. In the past I think it was a fairly human attitude to keep something for one’s children and grandchildren. However, I rather suspect at this stage in our development that we cannot allow this. We have to ensure that the land which is suitable for development is used for development and, if there are people who will not use it, that it will be expropriated at reasonable price and then put into use.

What about Cato Manor?

The hon. member must wait a moment. I shall come to that. In his introductory address, the hon. the Minister did make a point of all the assistance that is going to be given to new homeowners. Of course, we have known of most of this for some considerable time and I think they are excellent suggestions. However, I just submit this thought to him: With all the goodwill in the world, unless these sites are available quickly and cheaply—no matter how cheaply one builds the houses—they will still not be able to afford them. Many municipalities have ridiculous standards. They are demanding minimum sizes of 8 000 or maybe 10 000 sq feet. Excuse my using the old terminology, but I am not too well up in the other.

[Inaudible.]

I take that from whence it comes. I suppose the hon. member measures his cheese in those sort of things.

Nasty little man!

I am a nasty little man? The hon. member must just take one look at himself in a mirror and he will see one.

You are a nasty little man!

Order!

I believe that the municipalities must be compelled, and I use the word advisedly, to allow for smaller stands. The municipalities that are sitting on the land and demanding the maximum prices must be forced to disgorge it at reasonable prices. I cannot help but feel that this is generally considered contrary to our normal free enterprise attitude. It is considered contrary to our concept of giving as much autonomy to local government as possible. I feel that this is far too serious a matter for us to allow these people to override the general needs of the people. Again we have the problem of the mass removal of population groups for ideological reasons or for replanning. I believe this must be curtailed. I know the hon. Minister has in the past indicated to me that the awful situation that developed in the complete demolition of blocks such as AK and G in Durban is not likely to happen again. That goes for certain other places as well, such as Cape Town. There is, however, for example in Durban a situation developing in respect of Clarewood. The hon. member for Greytown yesterday raised the issue of Clarewood in Durban and incidentally also Cato Manor. Both these matters are very hot issues in Durban and are of vital importance to the Indian community. He announced himself as the spokesman for the Indian community in this regard. I may add that I rather consider this to be a self-appointed post. The hon. member quoted 15 years of knowledge of and working with the Indian community, but I must double that and say that from my 30 years knowledge of the Indian community I do not believe that they really like the idea of him appointing himself as their spokesman. Certainly a number of the Indian leaders do not consider the PFP as the adequate spokesmen for their community.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member a question?

No, I do not have the time. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I rise to give the hon. member the opportunity to complete his speech.

Thank you!

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. member a question?

I am sorry, I do not have the time. I have more important things to speak about than you have and so I will get on with it.

The hon. member also made the point that he should not have to speak for the Indians because he believed that they should be in this Chamber. I find that quite a remarkable statement from a member of a party who in fact refused to vote for them to be allowed to come into this Chamber. Anyway, that is merely in passing. To emphasize this issue I want to say that an Indian leader from the Durban North LAC has referred to the PFP as pinko liberals. I think he would probably like to see that. The delicate and sensitive way in which they deal with it again became evident when a member of the PFP told a member of the Indian Council: “If you are not prepared to be criticized, go home”. That is really delicate.

We are not racialists.

I could overdo this, but I prefer to get on with the issue. I just want to make the point that as far as I can recollect at the moment there are something of the order of 20 000 people still living in the Clairwood area. The Durban City Council has for many years been toying with this idea of turning it into an industrial area. I do not blame any council for this matter, which stretches over a long period. It is a long-standing possibility. However, the point is that it has not been turned into an industrial area yet and that there are approximately 20 000 people living there. Frankly, I do not believe, no matter how desirable the land may be for industrial purposes, that we can afford to unhouse and rehouse 20 000 people, certainly, no matter for what reason, at this time. I just put it to the hon. the Minister: If it were 20 000 Whites living there, would we in fact even countenance the idea? I rather think that we would not and I do not believe that we can afford to do it with any community at all, no matter which community it may be. I might add further that Indians have been living in that area for generations. However, for 20 years very little has been done to look after that area. There is no sewerage and virtually no stormwater drainage and as a consequence the place is degenerating, to put it frankly, into a soggy slum, nothing more or less than that. Now this is in a part of Durban which I believe can be developed and should be developed as a housing area. It is possible that at the beginning it would have been a better industrial area than a housing area, but I suggest that it is too late to consider that now. I believe that if they wanted it to be an industrial area it should have been done years ago, and that now industrialists will have to go out and find land elsewhere. I therefore ask the hon. the Minister to investigate this matter and to endeavour to ensure that these people are not removed.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North mentioned Cato Manor. To get Cato Manor developed again is something which is very, very dear to the hearts of people in Durban. It was cleared about 20 years ago and there have been various proposals and plans for that area, but nonetheless it is still lying vacant. It was in my constituency until a previous delimitation and so I know the area extremely well indeed. It is still contiguous to my constituency and I go through it fairly frequently. For the most part it is beautiful land for housing development. I do not believe that one can undertake a great deal of high rise development in it, but there are literally hundreds upon hundreds of acres of good prime land which is not being used and has not been used for 20 years. There have been arguments as to whether it was a White area—and it was a White area for years—but it has now been declared and zoned for the Indian community. I might add in passing here again that I tried to persuade the Indians to share a part of this land with the other communities, for example the Coloured community, which is also very short in land, but the Indian community was adamant that it wanted it all. Therefore, whatever the score is, we surely must get that moving. It is ridiculous to have such a huge tract of land undeveloped.

Why not let anybody buy it?

Look, you are talking in terms of your own policy. As far as our policy is concerned, we probably would not worry too much either if it were declared an open area, but it is not an open area in terms of its zoning. It is regrettably, from my point of view, still an Indian area and the only people who are permitted to buy in terms of the law are persons from the Indian community. If that is the case, let us find a way whereby they can buy the place and afford to build there, or, if that is not possible, for goodness’ sake let us rezone it. I do not advocate rezoning, but I do advocate using the land, because we cannot afford to leave it as it is.

The hon. the Minister did mention to me that the Grey Street area was one that he was having a look at when I spoke to him on the subject. This particular area is one which has been almost dormant in terms of development for a very long time because residential development has not been permitted there. I really do believe that the hon. the Minister has looked into this matter very seriously and I hope that in the not too distant future he will be able to give an indication as to whether this land and these properties can be developed further, and that Indian people—this is predominantly an Indian area—will be able to carry on and use the buildings and develop the land they have there to the optimum. This will serve a number of useful purposes. It will also make that part of Durban rather more economic for the City Council, which it is not at the present moment because of the underdevelopment for such a long period. However, more important, of course, than that is that it will provide homes and business facilities for the Indian community in the heart area of Durban. I believe this to be of vital importance.

Mr. Chairman, the official Opposition has a new chief spokesman on this Vote today. It would probably have been customary to congratulate him on his first appearance on such an occasion, but I want to say to hon. members that as far as that hon. member is concerned, they must pardon me for saying that my summing up of that hon. member and his conduct here today is such that I may only want to refer to him in the final minute, if there are a few seconds left.

It is a tremendous privilege for me to participate once again today in the discussion of this Vote, which I have been concerned with for many years, particularly because it is administered by a Minister who is an exceptionally pragmatic person who, as we have come to know him over the years, has both feet on the ground and regards his task as a challenge. We also want to congratulate him on the brilliant success he has made of this department thus far.

However, there is something else on which I want to congratulate him specially today. Hon. members probably recall the date 26 May 1948. The hon. the Minister was one of the select group who made a special contribution on that day, 35 years ago, to put the National Party into power. I think that this was a privilege for anyone who has been associated with him over the years.

He has succeeded in gathering around him a group of officials who would be a credit to any service. Evidence of this is provided by the founding of a utility company in their own ranks, something that was announced to hon. members this afternoon. In other words, these are officials who do not simply do their duty but are also inspired with enthusiasm to struggle daily with one of our greatest challenges, that of housing. I venture to say today that under the dynamic leadership of this Minister we have reached the fortunate stage, as far as housing is concerned, which, only a few years ago, still seemed to be beyond reach, to be something we could only describe as a dream.

Hon. members will understand if I confine my remarks today to the Cape Peninsula in general and my own constituency in particular, because I am perhaps better acquainted with the development and circumstances there than in the rest of South Africa. In the limited time at my disposal I just want to touch on three aspects, viz. the accommodation of a certain group of people, the finalization of separate residential areas and the phenomenal progress made over the past few years with the resettlement of squatters.

I have profound appreciation for the philosophy of the Minister and the Government in making available for sale, houses that earlier were regarded as subeconomic. However, we shall have to be realistic and realize that there is still a group of people today who do not have the potential to be house owners and will always rely on rented accommodation. Here I have in mind in particular the people about who we are all concerned, such as the elderly, whose places of residence have gone by the board due to sectional title sales, or who have been forced by rising costs our of their accommodation due to the phasing out of rent control because they were not fortunate enough to be protected tenants, in that they occupied the same dwelling unit. Then, too, there are also those today who have a low income and an average—or even bigger—family who are really caught in a stranglehold as far as housing is concerned. Accordingly I held in-depth discussions with the hon. the Minister recently in regard to these cases, particularly with a view to the Department considering the possibility of making funds available to the Housing League—the utility company—to enable them to develop additional accommodation in Ruyterwacht. We still have land in Ruyterwacht and are also negotiating with the Cape Divisional Council to have more land available there.

I do not wish to repeat my representations in public here today, but I do wish to ask the hon. the Minister, in all courtesy, whether he is not in a position to make an announcement in this regard at this stage. We ask this of him because we can all attest to his exceptionally understanding approach in all our discussions with him.

Ruyterwacht, which was developed by the Housing League—one of the pioneering utility companies in South Africa—and which was redeveloped by the Department in later years, at present comprises approximately 1 850 dwelling units, about one-third of which are being offered for sale. Over more than 50 years this utility company has developed various schemes for the lower-paid groups of all colours and is therefore ideally equipped, administratively speaking, to lease dwelling units. I therefore wish to make an earnest appeal to the hon. the Minister today to see to it that this utility company in particular will not be compelled to sell all the dwelling units that have been developed with State funds over the years.

Mr. Chairman, the policy of this party over the past 35 years has always been the creation and maintenance of separate residential areas. However, this policy task has not only involved the unravelling of mixed residential areas; primarily it has amounted to slum clearance, because the majority of these mixed residential areas were in a state of physical decay. In this regard those who were acquainted with circumstances in the Peninsula can today attest to an enormous task performed by this Government over the past number of years. In my own constituency it can almost be said that the impossible has been achieved. I think that at the moment there is still only an isolated number of disqualified cases, in parts such as Kenwyn and Lansdowne. Incidentally, I also have to look after the needs of the voters of my neighbour, the hon. member for Pinelands, in this regard.

The Department is now in a position to improve the position of these people as well, by offering them alternative accommodation which will be acceptable to them and which can round off his task of resettlement. Here I refer in particular to the areas SK 5, SK 22 and SK 53 which, for the most part, are situated in my constituency and in which only 92 such cases still exist today.

I also wish to convey my sincere thanks to the hon. the Minister, and in particular to the local division of the Department, for the clearing of concentrations of squatters and the decent housing provided, particularly in the vicinity of the D. F. Malan Airport. At one stage the problem here was so overwhelming that we had begun to believe that it was impossible to resolve this squatter problem. Instant solutions were put forward that would have made our present situation even more unenviable. With regard to this whole matter we have never had any support from the official Opposition. In the area adjoining the D. F. Malan Airport, where there were 276 shanties, and in Modderdam Road where there were 132, the shanties have now all been cleared. In an area like Ravensmead, near my own White residential area, there were initially 2 360 shanties, and in Elsies River, where there had been an old site-and-service scheme, there was the vast number of 7 598 shanties. Almost all these people are properly accommodated today. The final 300 are being built in Ravensmead at the moment so that the last people can be resettled. [Time expired.]

Mr. Speaker, I rise merely to afford the hon. member the opportunity to complete his speech.

Mr. Chairman, it is ironical that the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North should give me the opportunity, because that will give me the opportunity to address a few words to him, too.

Of those 7 598 shanties in Elsies River, only another 1 181 have to be cleared. That will round off this gigantic project of 10 000 dwelling units erected by the Department in co-operation with the Divisional Council.

The only spot which will then still have to be cleared is a squatter camp at the corner of Klipfontein and Modderdam Roads—hon. members have probably seen it on the road to the airport—which is for the most part occupied by Malawians. These Malawians have been living in this camp for many years as a closed community. They are entirely on their own and, as Malawians, they do not identify with the local Black population. Moreover, they are for the most part married to Coloured wives and their children attend Coloured schools. I think there are approximately 85 families. I just want to ask whether the hon. the Minister intends resettling these people, too, so that we can eliminate the unfortunate situation prevailing there.

I want to conclude by turning to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North, who really overflowed with venom here today. I think that if venom and offensivess were a virtue, he would have been the most virtuous young man in this Committee today. The hon. member really gives me the impression that he is not interested in solutions. He is not interested in the improvement of the standard of living and quality of life of people, whatever their colour. For that reason he deemed fit to launch a distasteful attack on me here, having first set up a straw doll in respect of the so-called forced resettlement of Blacks, knowing full well what the situation is in Langa and so on. We shall be able to discuss that matter very fruitfully in the appropriate Vote, viz. that of Co-operation and Development. What the hon. member is doing—together with the English Press, which launched that campaign this morning—is to cast suspicion on Khayalitsha among the Black people in advance because it is expedient for him to have Black squatters on the dunes, people who have to be prosecuted and pursued in the cold, because he wants to see that situation continue and does not want to see people properly resettled in an orderly and well-planned residential area.

Besides putting up a tent for squatters on his front lawn, the hon. member must try to achieve something in the sphere of housing before he comes and touts political slogans in the company of adults, slogans than can only have an inflammatory effect. If he wants us to take notice of him in this Committee in future, he will have to adjust his contribution drastically. This is not a debating society in which victory is achieved by way of liberalist slogans.

Mr. Chairman, I am sorry that the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North had such a hard time on his first appearance as chief spokesman of the Official Opposition in this debate. I think it would be adding insult to injury to rub it in further. Moreover, I also have the disadvantage that the hon. member, who is still a young man—considerably younger than I am—will probably be here for the number of years that I may still be here—and that will be a long time. I must take into account the fact that the hon. member will probably have to get along with me, and me with him, for a long time yet. Therefore I shall let that dressing-down he has been subjected to, suffice, and tell him that I wish him all of the best in his handling of the Vote as chairman of his party’s group. We have had dealings with one another in the past. I am acquainted with the hon. member; he has another side too. I see my way clear to getting along with him, particularly if the hon. member for Sea Point also promises to lend a hand. He is experienced and what is more, he is a Cape man. Although we have differed sharply from time to time on policy, we have always got along very well. I think we shall get along with the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North as well. He was in a difficult position today, of course. He could not speak about housing, because the hon. member for Sea Point always does that in detail. If one has to speak in this particular debate for 20 to 30 minutes and one cannot say anything about housing, with the result that one has to speak about other things, one eventually speaks about matters unrelated to this field. Thus the hon. member devoted much of his speech to the proposed resettlement of Black people in the new residential area.

Black people do not reside in areas that have been declared by my department as group areas for Black people. Therefore I have nothing to do with the declaration of those areas and the resettlement of people there. If funds are eventually requested to build houses for these people, then the requests will, of course, come through the ordinary channels. They determine the priorities and we provide the money. However, this is a supplementary service that we render. Therefore I do not wish to go into this aspect further. Perhaps the hon. member should hold his speech over until next week, when the vote of the hon. the Minister of Co-operation and Development is due to be discussed.

As is customary for a first spokesman on the Opposition side, the hon. member put several questions to me. There were almost too many questions for me to reply to in the short time at my disposal.

He asked me where the other Chambers would be situated in terms of the new dispensation. I think it would be a little presumptuous to build chambers at this early stage, before a referendum has been held. I think we shall achieve a major victory in the referendum, but one should really behave correctly as far as these things are concerned. That is not to say that our department has not already investigated this matter and that we do not have ideas in this regard. However, I think it would be a little presumptuous to spell them out here. This is something that had better wait until the appropriate time.

I am pleased that the hon. member raised the issue of the activities of the Government Printer. The hon. the Deputy Minister will reply in that regard. The hon. the Deputy Minister of Development and of Land Affairs will deal with aspects relating to land affairs.

The hon. member made a few friendly remarks about our report and the memorandum we tabled. On behalf of the department I wish to thank him sincerely for that.

He also referred to the three commissions falling under this department. I shall come back to that again in due course. I just want to say that the Strydom Committee, a technical committee, has completed its work with regard to the Group Areas aspects of its terms of reference and that at my request, a separate report is to be handed to me shortly. I hope that we shall then have time to study it and to consider what legislation to prepare. In any event I do not think that there is time to do anything about legislation during this session, if legislation should prove to be necessary.

The hon. member spoke about resettlement and referred to what was stated in the report on resettlement. I shall discuss that when I reply to the arguments of the hon. member for Tygervallei. He, too, like the hon. member for Umbilo, spoke about pieces of open land that must be utilized. He referred to Cato Manor, District Six and other areas. As far as District Six is concerned. I want to say that I should not like to cross swords in public with the City Council of Cape Town unless they force me to do so. The members of the City Council of Cape Town are not Nationalists, but usually they get along well with us, except occasionally, when they dig in their heels a little, as is the case here with regard to housing. I do not think that the entire council feels that way about the sale of the housing schemes. This is one of the city councils that is “verkramp” in this regard. However, in general, they do not do bad work. They have many skilled people and very good officials. If they were only to listen to the officials and leave them be, we should get along well with them, and good work would be done in Cape Town, the Mother City. However, the Progs in that city council, just like the hon. members of the official Opposition opposite, are making a political football of District Six. I do not want to become involved in a public argument with the city council in this regard, but thus far they have done everything in their power to thwart us with regard to the development of District Six. That is the aim in this regard. The place must lie there like a sore for everyone to see. To a large extent they have already achieved their objective. The other day I noticed that councillor Muir, like the hon. members of the official Opposition, has now said that he is concerned because the place looks so neglected. However, thus far the city council has done everything in its power to thwart and obstruct us as regards the development of that area.

Leave it to them.

But then nothing will take place there.

You will be surprised.

They do not want the Technikon there.

You want it there.

Yes, I want it there and it will be built there. If the city council does not wish to co-operate, then we shall have to adopt other measures permitted us by the Act to develop the place. However, I am prepared to speak to them if they want to co-operate. I do not want to cross swords with them here in public. I shall speak to them face to face.

Perhaps I must discuss Cato Manor as well, since the hon. member for Umbilo also mentioned it. It is lying there, and hon. members must bear in mind that it cost the State millions of rands to remove the Black people who lived there. There were no Indians living there; Black people lived there. Just as Cato Manor belonged to the Indians, who farmed with Black people there, District Six was in the hands of Whites, whereas Coloureds were in the majority there. Cato Manor was one of the most disgraceful places in South Africa. To clear up that mess, where the Blacks assaulted and killed the Indians, we had to take drastic action. Everyone shouted “Hosannah” while we were clearing that mess. When we had finished clearing it, the Indians came along and said that they wanted the place back. They had never in fact lived there, apart from a few of them. The Black people lived there.

40 000 people is not a few.

What does that hon. member know? He is sitting here by the grace of Connie Mulder, and one of these days he will be out.

Are 40 000 a few?

Order! The hon. member must now give the hon. the Minister the opportunity to answer the questions put to him.

Yes, that hon. member is only confusing the issue here, because he spoke out of turn in this House yesterday when he made the speech he should have made here today, and now he wants to come and listen to the answer here. [Interjections.] He made it in a different debate.

We are not as schizophrenic as your Government.

Cato Manor was given back to the Indians. No one is stopping the Indians from developing it, but we bought it and we paid millions of rands to clear it so that it could look as it looks today. And let me say at this point that I am not going to spend the Whites’ (read “State’s”) money on developing it. The Indians will have to develop it. We shall assist in the overall planning, but if they are waiting for me to develop it and build houses there, they will wait till the cows come home. I say that to the hon. member for Umbilo as well. The Indians can do it themselves.

Then you will have one Chamber less in Parliament.

That hon. member knows nothing about it. When they asked for it, I was the Deputy Minister for Planning. At that time they said to us: “Just give it back to us. You need not do anything. We shall develop it with our own money”. And now? Now they want me to build houses for them there, too, and to say: “Just come and move in”. That will be the day. So much for Cato Manor. I said that to the Indians. Those hon. members need not go and convey it to them. The Indian leaders have often heard me say it.

As far as Zonnebloem is concerned, I have already spoken about the situation there and the hon. members knows what progress we have made with the development, notwithstanding the opposition we have had in this regard from the City Council of Cape Town, merely because they do not want the Technikon there. I did not decide on the Technikon to be established there. They are knocking on the wrong door. If they want the Technikon to be moved, they must speak to a different Minister. However, I must get the land in order. That is the task of my department and myself, and as far as this task is concerned we shall not permit the City Council of Cape Town to thwart us; if they attempt to, we shall do other things.

Mr. Chairman, the other day the hon. member put a question in the House and he asked it again today. I owe him a reply in this regard. It concerns the house sold in Zonnebloem at a far higher price than that for which it was originally purchased. I want to say that I am sorry that this has happened. However, it is true that up to now we have simply not had the appropriate powers to enable us to do anything about this buying back of houses. Usually, if one wants to buy back, there is an argument with the other person about the price of the land. I cannot think of a single case thus far in which property has been bought back without an extended argument about the pre-emptive right and the price at which it has to be bought back. The Act provides that one may appoint an arbitrator to determine what the price is to be in this instance. But then we should continually have to be appointing arbitrators. I do not mind doing this in Zonnebloem, here in District Six. The fact is that as far as this house is concerned, the person applied and gave as his reason that he had been transferred. He submitted evidence to the Community Development Board that he had been transferred to East London and that he had to sell. He offered the house to the Community Development Board for R64 000. As in most of these cases, the Community Development Board decided that it would not exercise its preemptive right. This is one of the hundreds of cases that occur. Some on these cases have merit. Often they are public servants. Often they are cases where people really have no alternative but to sell. Up to now we have not had those powers that I mentioned here recently, to share the profits. Therefore, I am pleased that the hon. members have been sensible enough to give me that power. Now we can deal with these cases in future. In the past we did not exercise pre-emptive rights. They only existed on paper. I fear that as far as this scheme is concerned, too, we have a pre-emptive right which, in terms of the new dispensation, we shall not be able to enforce so as to demand part of the profit, because this scheme was initiated and the contracts concluded before the Act had come into operation. Now I want to say to the hon. member that I think it is improper that people who have been assisted to obtain accommodation with Community Development money, or by way of housing funds, or by way of any such aid—and not only in Zonnebloem—should want to speculate in this manner. This is not general practice, but it does occur. Already there is another application from a person who says that he wants to move to Pietermaritzburg. Probably he is a friend of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North.

He will vote for me.

He now wants to move back there and he wants to sell his place for even more money than the other one. I have now told the Community Development Board: “Look here, this crowd of Progs is again going to gossip ad nauseam about the speculation that is going on here.” I am a blunt fellow as far as these things are concerned and those hon. members know I am speaking the truth. There is speculation with this kind of thing throughout the country. In each of these hon. members’ constituencies, people are using and—I am tempted to say—abusing this.

Not in mine.

However, just because it is in Zonnebloem, it is an eternal sin. I have said to the Community Development Board that this poor future voter of the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North should suffer a little. We shall have to give very careful consideration to these cases. In any event we shall not be able to give him the pre-emptive right, unless I personally…

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister in what sense that person will suffer, because surely he will in any event get back the original money he invested there, and at an increased interest rate? Surely he does not suffer at all.

Say he wants R70 000 for the house; then I have to enter into litigation with him. And how many of these cases are there in which there is a pre-emptive right? I should need another department and additional officials, that I do not have, to deal with cases of this nature. However, I want to say to hon. members that as far as Zonnebloem is concerned, I have already issued a directive to the Community Development Board to the effect that because the place is so much in the news, we should enforce the Act there very strictly.

I think I have now dealt with most of the hon. member’s questions thus far. I just want to say that the hon. member also mentioned the issue of facilities. I want to say to him that it is not possible to create facilities with ease for Black people in the vicinity of Guguletu. However, we created excellent facilities for the Coloured community at Standfontein. The hon. member may have seen them. I think this is something to write home about. We can also do so for the Black people if they now move to the Swartklip vicinity. We can create facilities of equal excellence for them there so that they will not need to trouble other people. It is the policy of the department to see to it that sufficient alternative facilities are created for these people.

Can a start not be made with that now?

We have been doing this for years. The hon. member for Green Point simply does not know it. In the past five years alone my department has spent R42 million on these community facilities, and that does not include money channelled by the provinces to places such as Strandfontein. The hon. the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning and I called a meeting of the local authorities in the Peninsula and told them that it was time they provided decent facilities for people so that it was not necessary for them to go and occupy the facilities of other people. We also said to them that our department would assist, in that we should provide money, but that they, too, had to do something. It is true that many of them are very slow to do these things. However, there is co-operation and progress in this regard. As I said to the hon. member, it is our policy to create sufficient separate facilities, parallel facilities, for these people so that they need not use other people’s.

And if they use the waves here at Camps Bay?

Then that hon. member will drown in them. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Wit-bank discussed land affairs. The hon. the Deputy Minister of Development and of Land Affairs will reply to him in that regard. He also touched on a very important subject, viz. the report of the President’s Council on community development. He stressed the vital need for a national programme of action and made an appeal that we set aside a year as a year for community development. That is a very fine and positive idea. This programme of community development incorporates everything the hon. member spoke about here. It also flows from the report of the President’s Council. In fact, it is co-ordinated by the Department of Health and Welfare, but I shall convey the hon. member’s positive idea to the Government as far as this matter is concerned. The other reply he will get from the hon. the Deputy Minister.

I now turn to the hon. member for Langlaagte. I should prefer to say nothing about the question of the President’s Council he touched on. I just want to say to the hon. member that even if the new dispensation does not come about, the President’s Council will continue to exist. I am making provision for the President’s Council, not necessarily the President’s Council in the new dispensation. If another one comes into being, it will still exist. However, I am making provision for the President’s Council that exists, and if the other one does not come into being, this one will continue to exist. Therefore I must provide it with accommodation.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister what the estimated cost of this bulding for the President’s Council is?

I shall get it from one of the officials in a moment and give it to the hon. member.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member also asked me how many of the 500 000 houses would be available for sale to Whites. I had a survey carried out and I think I sent that hon. member a copy of the circular we sent to all our local authorities to determine exactly what was available in each of the areas. At present I am still unable to say, but I can say—and this is perhaps what the hon. member wants to know—that the units to be sold to Whites will, in the nature of the matter, be far fewer than the others. Surely I need not spell that out to the hon. member. Many of the houses to be sold are those small houses that Dr. Verwoerd built for the Black people in the sixties. In the nature of the matter, 74% or more of the Whites are already home owners and therefore there is a far smaller group of them living in our houses. However, I shall try in due course to obtain those figures for the hon. member.

The hon. member spoke about Crown Gardens as well. I want to say to the hon. member that I still stand by the undertaking that my predecessor gave him. The people who have bought at Crown Gardens thus far have bought at historical prices, at the price of construction. Those people who are still to buy under the new scheme, from 1 June, will be able to buy on the same advantageous basis as anyone else. That is all as far as Crown Gardens are concerned. The hon. member asked me whether I would not launch a scheme in the south of Johannesburg. Over the past six months we have given the Johannesburg City Council R128 000 for the sale of four blocks of flats. We have given them R2 million for 50 houses that they are to build at Kliprivier-berg and 50 houses to be built at Claremont. I hope that that is not in the hon. member’s constituency.

I will know about everything that goes on in my constituency.

It is in that vicinity. It is in Kliprivierberg and Claremont. We have negotiated a construction scheme of R2 million there. We are now also going to spend R1 333 000 on an old age home in Jeppes-town—I do not know whether that falls into the hon. member’s constituency. I do not know into whose constituency that falls.

I skipped answering the hon. member for Bellville, because I am keeping a special answer for him. The hon. member for Bellville is my right hand as chairman of the Government’s study group on housing. I want to thank the hon. member for everything he has done in this regard. That hon. member made special reference to the change with respect to our housing strategy, viz. the more pragmatic policy we now have. The hon. member pointed out that our policy was geared towards achieving a feasible objective. The hon. member also referred to the sales programme; we can only hope that we shall achieve a great deal of success with this scheme. The hon. member mentioned Mr. Kruger, who is listening to the debate today. The hon. member also praised the department’s conservation efforts. I am very pleased that the hon. member did so. It is unfortunately the case—and it is a pity—that people try to attribute a bulldozer mentality to this department. In recent times this really has not been so.

Marais Steyn was the fellow who used bulldozers.

I think that is wrong. We had to clear up many slums and had to use many bulldozers. We should be grateful that this was done.

This department performs a very important task of conservation. The hon. member mentioned some of these things here today, and I could mention many more, for example the Van Ryneveld Street project in Stellenbosch, the Old Presidency in Bloemfontein, the Castle, and the Palace of Justice. It costs millions of rand merely to restore Newlands House. Everyone sat tight when the place burnt down, but when we bought it, everyone clamoured to tell me what to do. Then everyone wanted Newlands House to be re-built. That is not how one goes about restoring. Today I want to make an appeal to many of the so-called conservationists to retain a little more balance—and that applies to them too. Some of them do the cause of conservation more harm than good, due to their one-sided and narrow-minded approach. They see matters from one angle only and do not see the other side of the issue. Conservation must go hand in hand with progress and development. A sound balance must be maintained, but some of the people who have entered this field should rather stay out of it.

As far as the Castle is concerned—and I say this because it is of importance to us Cape people—we appointed experts, namely the authorities Mr. Fagan and Mrs. Fagan. They carried out three years of research throughout the world before we touched the Castle. Now we are going to make a decent job of it.

As far as Newlands House is concerned; the place burnt down. It is not standing here so that one can see its frills and angles. We must first determine by way of painstaking research, how to restore it in accordance with the period in history on the basis of which it must be restored. However, we have done the work of clearing up and we have treated the place to ensure that further deterioration cannot take place in winter. I hope that within the foreseeable future we shall be able to make a start with the awarding of contracts to restore this place. In this instance, the restoration will cost at least R800 000 to R1 million. We are not talking in terms of small change; that is big money. These are things that are overlooked when it is said that we are simply sending in the bulldozers. I say with all the knowledge at my disposal that we do more conservation work in this country than any other body that thinks it does conservation work. It is just that we do not blow our own trumpets so hard and we do not criticize other people who are engaged in this task so much as to hamper them in their task. That is all as far as this matter is concerned. I want to thank the hon. member most sincerely for his contribution.

†I wish to express my appreciation towards the hon. member for Umbilo for his sober and realistic approach towards housing matters. I do not expect hon. members on the other side of the House to agree with everything that the Government or I say or do, but I only expect an understanding for our enormous task and our enormous responsibility from my colleagues.

*I am not one of those who think that I or the department or the Nationalists sitting here have a monopoly on wisdom as far as housing is concerned. I gave evidence of that when I referred to two of the most pressing and vexatious problems in the housing field to hon. members of this House, and involved everyone. Firstly there is the question of rent control. That is truly a thorny subject. I put it to hon. members on both sides of the House, so that they could advise me in this regard, and I am waiting expectantly for their advice. Another aspect in regard to which I have taken hon. members of this House into my confidence, is the issue of township development and everything that that involves. I brought them all together in the Venter Commission. The hon. members brought me a bulky report, but they have not yet given me a solution to this burning issue. Township development and township development procedures, and the expenses and delays they entail, are among the greatest problems I am saddled with. I therefore expect of this commission of hon. members of this side of the House and the hon. members on the other side of the House to criticize, to make a contribution, so that we can escape this impasse.

†I welcome assistance and advice from all hon. members in this House. I can assure hon. members that I will always accept positive suggestions. I must admit that, in my time as Minister of this department, I have learnt a lot from hon. members on the other side of this House. I am not ashamed to say so. What is more, I must confess that I have taken some of those hon. members’ positive suggestions and constructive ideas and have made them my own.

*I am not ashamed to learn. I have learned a great deal from the hon. member for Umbilo. The hon. member for Langlaagte knows a great deal about township development. The hon. members for Sea Point and other hon. members can make a contribution. I am not stupid, because in the normal course Nationalists are not stupid. Just as I welcome and wish to obtain the help of the private sector, developers, financial institutions and everyone who takes an interest in the field of housing and is able to make a contribution in that regard—because it is the deliberate policy of the department to pool their forces—in the same way I should like to have the advice of hon. members on both sides of this House. My department and my colleagues seek to provide the best services to all, to the people at large, and to hon. members in this House. We also have our problems. Often we want to make a fist, but lack the fingers to do so, because we do not have sufficient funds. Therefore hon. members must show some understanding. Often we want to do things better than we do in fact do them, but we lack the staff. Nor am I ashamed to admit that our department sometimes makes mistakes. We are not angels. I am not ashamed to admit that we make mistakes, but we try to rectify them and one should just be grateful every day that the number of mistakes made is relatively so small, in our department with its diversity and variety.

†I am still busy with the speech of the hon. member for Umbilo. The hon. member said that adequate land must be made available at reasonable prices. I agree with the hon. member. The hon. member said the land must be expropriated from private owners.

*I know to whom the hon. member was referring. I do not want to get involved in that tricky matter at the moment, but there is a great deal of land.

†It is part and parcel of the Government’s new housing strategy to spend a greater portion of the budget on the obtaining of available land and on infrastructure.

*I can say to the hon. member that we had a survey carried out recently among all the local authorities to determine how many plots were available there that we could put on the market immediately. It was ascertained that we have today 71 827 plots for Whites available for sale in the larger municipalities. There are 13 019 plots available for Coloureds. This refers only to the larger urban complexes. There are approximately 3 000 plots available for Indians. That is the number of plots available at the moment.

Is that unimproved land?

It is not unimproved land. These are plots that are serviced and that could be sold immediately, even today. We are making these plots available to people. Recently we made 186 serviced plots at Garsfontein, and 293 plots at Newlands, available through the City Council of Pretoria at very reasonable prices. We made them available to our young people to enable them to build houses. We have now sold 749 building plots to the City Council of Johannesburg for approximately R4 million. This works out at approximately R5 329 per plot. We want the City Council of Johannesburg to make these 749 plots, varying from 248 m2 to 1 500 m2, that it obtained from us cheaply, available to the people at equally reasonable prices so that the young people can build themselves houses. We have now also made 526 plots in Bothasig available to private developers who are building houses there for approximately R40 000. It is possible for them to make these houses available to the people at this price precisely because the plots were so cheap. Just to show the hon. member for Umbilo the importance I attach to the early purchase of land and the making available of serviced plots, I want to point out to him that in the three years I have been Minister, we have spent not less than R356 million on the purchase of land and the creation of infrastructures.

The hon. member asked me about another matter as well. He did so in the right place, of course, and was not as obtuse as another hon. member who spoke about the matter in a different debate. The hon. member for Umbilo referred to Clarewood. I do not know Durban, but the hon. member said that there were about 20 000 Indians in Clarewood awaiting resettlement. To me this looks like a target that cannot be achieved.

I think the hon. the Minister misunderstood me. There are 20 000 people in Clarewood who, if it is used for industrial purposes, will have to be resettled.

How many Indians are there? about 10 000?

About 20 000.

About 20 000?

About 12 000.

However many there may be, 10 000 or 12 000 or 20 000, to me it seems to be a formidable task of resettlement. Consequently, as in the case of Maitland Garden Village and other places, I shall go there personally.

†I promise the hon. member that I will go there myself to investigate the situation and to see for myself whether we will be able to proceed with the idea of resettling those people.

*I think I have now replied in detail to the hon. member for Umbilo, and I now come to the hon. member for Tygervallei. The hon. member for Tygervallei touched on some important matters. I regard these matters as being so important that we can take up some of the Committee’s time in discussing them. In any event, I had intended informing the Committee today on the progress made with regard to resettlement. The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North also referred to the fact that it is stated in the report of my department that we have now virtually completed the task of resettlement. I want to say to the hon. member for Tygervallei that this is an enormous task the Government and this department have performed. The policy of the National Party and this Government, at present and in the new dispensation, is one of separate residential areas, in order to establish stable and orderly communities and bring about peace and order in this country. Therefore my primary task is to ensure that this resettlement is carried out in accordance with the policy of the Government. It is true that there are still places where the task has not yet been completed, but I hope that in the next year to 18 months we shall be able to complete this task of resettlement. We have now carried out a country-wide survey to determine how many houses we shall still have to build for people who have to be resettled. We have ascertained that there are still 1 500 Coloured families to be resettled. In passing, I do not think that they need all be resettled. Here in the Western Cape, where I am most of the time, we have decided to stabilize the communities at various places such as Maitland Garden Village, Kalk Bay, Heldersig, Temperance, Sir Lowry’s Pass and Abbots-dale, and not to resettle them, with the result that there are a large number of people who were on the lists to be resettled previously, but who are now no longer on those lists. I do not wish to anticipate my decision, but I shall say at this point that I regard a place like Clarewood in the same light, and the same could perhaps happen. I understand that Clarewood does not border on any White residential area. If people were able to stabilize that community now, it could immediately be taken off the resettlement list. That would then reduce by a considerable number the 1 480 Indian families that still have to be resettled. 1 500 houses still have to be built for the resettlement of Coloureds, 1 480 houses for the resettlement of Indian families and only 123 houses for the resettlement of Whites.

As far as the sale of housing schemes is concerned, I want to say that I have full confidence in the Housing League. This is one of the bodies that has an outstanding reputation. The hon. member for Tygervallei also serves on the board of directors of that body, of course. I have been acquainted with the Housing League for a long time and I am prepared to trust it. It is not the policy of the Government to sell all the houses. We shall not be able to sell certain houses. This also applies to the Housing League.

The hon. member also asked whether we could not make additional money available to build a few more dwelling units in Ruijterwacht where there is still place. Ruijterwacht is the place for my poor people who are no longer able to pay the high flat rentals. In order to be able to help myself as well, I want to state frankly to the hon. member here and now that if the Housing League makes provision for approximately 50 dwelling units in Ruiterwag, I shall do my best to obtain the money for that.

The hon. member also spoke about his own constituency and referred to Ravens-mead. Ravensmead falls within the municipal area of Parow, but is not in my constituency. I never do anything directly for my constituency. If I have an old age home built in my town, I have it built just across the street so that it can fall into another hon. member’s constituency.

The hon. member for Tygervallei knows what wonders we have performed. Three of the worst slum areas—nests of squatters—in the Peninsula, were Ravensmead, Elsies River and the group of squatters squatting in Philippi among the White farmers. I make short work of them. At Ravensmead there are still 236 left. We must clear that up within a year. In January 1985 Ravensmead must be “finish and klaar”. We ourselves are building 350 houses there and we have given the City Council of Parow money for about 60. So much for Ravensmead.

The department has done a wonderful job in the vicinity of the airport. If one comes in from the northern side, one sees a fine area. It is just that the wind should not blow the wrong way, so that it comes in from the sea, because then things look bad. Where the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens farms, it looks bad, but from the national side, as one enters D.F. Malan Airport, it looks far better. The squatters who were there have now been removed. There is still the little island alongside Modderdam Road where the Malawians live. That looks bad. I always look out of my window when we fly over it. I have already given the Divisional Council of Cape Town money for 110 houses to house those Malawians. Once that has been done we shall be finished with the squatters in that area in the vicinity of D.F. Malan Airport.

I want to say to the hon. member for False Bay that our next priority is Philippi. Once we are finished there, only Elsies River will remain, and then we shall tackle that. This is a tremendous task, but we hope that we shall have completed it within the foreseeable future.

The people on the Cape Divisional Council—the Nationalists among them are in the minority—are not people who play politics; they are people who do their job. It is an absolute pleasure to co-operate with the Cape Divisional Council. Just look at what they have done at Atlantis; just see how they do their job; just see what they have already done at Elsies River; see what they have done throughout the area. The hon. member for Sea Point said that I gave all the thorny issues to committees, but all the thorny issues in the Cape Peninsula have fallen to the Cape Divisional Council. They are performing an exceptionally good task and I want to thank them today for what they are doing.

I want to end with a final remark about the question of resettlement. This has not been an easy task for the department; it has been a very difficult, thorny task that our officials have had to carry out over the years. They have endured a great deal of vilification in that regard. They are public servants servants and have to carry out the policy of the Government. In the process they brought upon themselves a great deal of rancour. They have been criticized very unjustly in their execution of this task. The hon. member for Bezuidenhout need not shake his head. I do not know whether there is still anything in his head that could be shaken, but what does he know about these matters? All I want to say is that the officials performed a task as befits public servants. Were they to have said “we do not want to do it”?

No.

Well, then, the hon. member must not be so unwise. Let hon. members on that side give the department and myself credit here today for the fact that over the past two to three years, as far as the implementation of this task is concerned, there have been no more of those unsavoury incidents that were given publicity in the Press here and abroad, to the detriment of South Africa. That is not to say that we have not done the work; we are carrying on with the work. There are still the tough nuts to be cracked. We still have very difficult places. We sometimes deal with people who are just as foolish as the hon. member for Bezuidenhout. Hon. members must give the department credit for recognizing the human dignity of people we deal with—they are usually people of colour—and for having always put human relations first. That, too, is why we have achieved the results we have over the past number of years. We realize there are cases of hardship. There are still several individual cases that are not settled and that have to be housed in the normal way and that my department and I regard as cases of hardship. We have sent out senior officials to these places to investigate. We have decided to let the people stay where they are; some of them are elderly. Some are married to White women and vice versa. There are cases of hardship and we deal with them on that basis. We shall carry out this task, and if people would only keep their dirty political noses out of the matter we shall finalize the task and change the face of South Africa so that we can all be proud of it. This is a task which has been performed in a manner deserving of praise and I hope that in the future, when the odd difficult case has to be dealt with, hon. members will not simply condemn me out of hand, but will understand that we have a task to perform.

Mr. Chairman, I listened to the hon. the Minister with great interest. He seems to think it is the Opposition that has been the cause of all these problems. What he has forgotten is that it is the Government’s policy that is creating all these problems that his department has to deal with. I have the greatest sympathy with the officials of his department. When I shook my head, I shook it in sympathy with the hon. the Minister’s officials who have to carry out his policy and do not like it. However, they do it; they have to do it. However, I want to talk about the future and not necessarily about the past. I will come to that in a few minutes’ time.

I want to refer to the registration of deeds and the collation between the department and the Surveyor-General and the department and the Registrar of Deeds and then look at what lies ahead for us in this respect.

The efficiency of surveys and mapping by the Surveyor-General enables us in South Africa to have a system whereby every property in South Africa is registerable by the Deeds Offices throughout the country. Title deeds in South Africa have an intrinsic value because they represent ownership to a particular piece of land and the property thereon, it is very rarely that one hears of a duplication, it has happened, however, that the numbering of plots has been changed and we have the unfortunate experience in one of our coastal holiday townships, Wavecrest at Jeffreys Bay, where owners of stands have been building according to title deeds only to discover that the Surveyor-General had changed the numbers of the stands and the townships developer had failed to inform the buyers that their stand numbers had changed. Something must be done to see to it that this does not happen again. This is a very strange and rare thing but it does happen from time to time.

Right of ownership is inherent in South African law and is entrenched in the South African legal system. The system of land registration in South Africa ensures this entrenchment. Our system ensures clear and accurate identification of the property itself, who is the owner, as well as any limitations that may be placed upon the use of the land. The present system sets down the exact demands regarding administrative procedures and no one in his right mind wishes our system to be changed. I hope that there will be no change in future.

It is important, however, that the relationship should be related between the Surveyor-General and the Deeds Office, which is responsible for the maintenance of plans and registers in which all cadastral information is kept. The Surveyor-General and the Registrar of Deeds perform a judicial task as the defenders of the property rights of every South African irrespective of race or colour. The Surveyor-General controls the maps that ensure land use and subdivision approval. The task of the Surveyor-General and the Deeds Offices ensures much more than only the correctness of documents. No submission can take place unless each map has been closely correlated to ensure the precise detail on every title deed. Thus each and every title deed through our registration system ensures, firstly, the identity of the land; secondly, the identity of the person; and, thirdly, the identity of the law.

With that as the background I want to deal with the question of what future development of erven in urban areas we require in South Africa. It is estimated that in order to provide shelter for our urban population in South Africa by the turn of the century, in 18 years’ time, we will have to provide further serviced stands for home-building as follows:

This is a tremendous task that is facing the Department of Community Development over the next 18 years. I could not care about the past. Let us worry about this tremendous task that lies ahead. What do we mean by serviced erven? We have to provide them with water, electricity, roads, sewerage and rubbish removal and all the other usual services. You also have to have some form of municipal control. The cost of this project will be R80 billion to R100 billion at 1980 prices. The hon. member for Witbank drew the attention of this Committee to this particular point, but he did not go into the details. He only dealt with the question of the so-called population explosion that will take place. I want to collate this population explosion to some form of reality. This job of providing some 3,5 million serviced stands over the next 18 years is the job which we should really be thinking of and we should not fight about the few stands that caused problems in the past.

This will give the Surveyor-General and the Registrar of Deeds an idea of the tremendous task that confronts them in the coming two decades. We want everybody in South Africa to become a home-owner, irrespective of colour. The only way that a person can own property is if he works in conjunction with the Surveyor-General and the Registrar of Deeds.

Deeds offices throughout South Africa at the present time are responsible for almost 500 000 registrations per annum, i.e. registration of deeds of transfer, notarial servitudes, ante-nuptial contracts, mortage and notarial bonds, interdicts, caveat and Master’s notices noted, expropriations and sectional title registrations. However, up till now the registrations applied to Whites, Coloureds and Asians only. The first step towards ownership by Blacks has been taken in the form of the 99-year leasehold scheme in Black townships in Whites areas. It is indeed a step forward.

Although it appears that most of the stands in Black townships in White areas have been surveyed, different standards were applied, particularly for construction purposes. The normal standards adopted by land surveyors, however, did not provide the survey information as is required in the normal course of work in a deeds office. It was left to the Department of Co-operation and Development to carry out these functions which would normally have been carried out by the Surveyor-General. Regulations by the department of this hon. Minister naturally differ from those of the Surveyor-General. It is no wonder, therefore, that chaos exists.

There is only one way to solve this problem. All surveys must be done in terms of the Land Survey Act of 1927. I am pleased to note that the hon. the Minister has made arrangements for private surveyors to re-survey all the Black townships. It will be appreciated if the hon. the Minister will give this Committee some information about how far this has progressed. It is said that aerial surveys will also be used. Can the hon. the Minister inform this Committee whether this aerial survery system will be used?

It is essential that the registration of title deeds for 99-year leaseholds should take place in our deeds offices, because this is the only effective place to ensure the property rights of all citizens, irrespective of race or colour.

It is only when a proper survey system for Black townships and a proper system of deeds registration equivalent to that of Whites, Indians and Coloureds, have been instituted that financial institutions will offer mortgage bonds to Blacks on the same basis as to Whites, Indians and Coloureds. It must be realized that home-ownership among Blacks will have a tremendous stabilizing effect on our Black citizens. It will mean that the large number of stands which are being built at present, can be sold to Blacks on a 99-year leasehold basis. This will release tremendous funds to the Housing Commission to provide for the building of new homes. In passing, I want to say that I trust the 99-year leasehold system is only a passing phase and that in the foreseeable future it will be possible to introduce freehold ownership to our Black citizens. I can tell the hon. the Minister that I will have no objection if the scale of fees for the transfer of title deeds of Blacks will be lower than that in respect of the other population groups, because I think they will not be able to afford the present charges.

Finally, I should like to deal with the staffing of deeds offices. Every time there is an upswing in the economy and the number of sales of property increases, the staff shortage is given as the reason for the delay in effecting registration of transfers. I have given some idea of the tremendous number of stands that have to be proclaimed in the next 20 years. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it was somewhat difficult to follow the hon. member for Bezuidenhout who has just sat down, because he did not actually put things neatly in a logical sequence. I was, however, able to deduce by implication that the hon. member maintained that there was chaos as a result of the particular method of surveying used in connection with the 99-year leasehold scheme. I think it a pity that the hon. member raised that here. When matters affecting the Department of Co-operation and Development are discussed in one or two weeks’ time, we can discuss with each other, probably over two days, the 99-year leasehold system and the method of surveying applied in that connection. The hon. member had to make a contribution to this debate, but I hold it against him that he described as chaotic the system designed to hold out for the Black man the prospect of his being able to obtain a roof over his head. I think that that was a scandalous remark. I do not know what end the official Opposition have in view, because they never want to give due recognition to any positive action taken by the State in its exceptional efforts to provide housing for the underprivileged in this country.

I actually got up to speak because I wanted to take this opportunity to refer to our deeds offices and their activities. In South Africa we have one of the best systems for dealing with deeds. We are privileged to have a staff who get through an enormous amount of work. Certainty in law is achieved by the way in which our deeds are dealt with. We are, however, confronted with problems from time to time.

To give hon. members who may perhaps not be involved in these matters from day to day an idea of the enormous workload of the deeds offices, I should just like to say that in normal years when the economy is not so heated, approximately 360 000 property transfers and mortgage bonds are registered, that is to say, approximately 30 000 per month. Allowing 10 folio sheets per deed, that amounts to 300 000 folio sheets which have to be studied and checked by the controllers in the deeds offices each month. So far our deeds offices have done very well. They have kept up to date. Like the harbours, the deeds offices are the barometer of the weal and woe of the economy in South Africa. In times of an economic upsurge, or when there are factors helping the economy along, there is naturally a considerable increase in the number of deeds that have to be registered. Such increases naturally result in problems. We do not really have a surplus of qualified people in this country. Therefore, when exceptional circumstances arise, the staff in our deeds offices have a difficult time. In the first four months of this year the workload of the staff increased as a result of the fact that building societies had more funds available and were therefore able to advance more loans. As a result more mortgage bonds had to be registered. On the other hand, the fact that under certain circumstances it is compulsory by law to register a deed of sale against a deed of transfer has also, of course, meant more work for the deeds offices. As a result there was an increased flow of work at the deeds offices. I just want to refer to this briefly. The Vryburg office had an increase of 5%, Cape Town 8,8%, Johannesburg 15%, Kimberley 15,4%, Bloemfontein 16,1%, King William’s Town 21,9% and Pretoria 26,4%. As a result of this increase a backlog also built up. The joint backlog in Pietermaritzburg and King William’s Town amounted to 1 400 deeds for two working days, in Pretoria 2 809 deeds for three working days, in Johannesburg 6 677 deeds for six working days, and in Cape Town 8 296 deeds for eight working days. Other deeds offices such as those in Bloemfontein, Kimberley and Vryburg were up to date with their deeds.

No one is of course responsible for this backlog. The available staff are doing a tremendous job of work. We know that backlogs at deeds offices create problems. This causes frustration among legal practitioners and the people requiring service. Sometimes money-lenders and sellers in land transactions charge buyers double interest because of these delays. Notwithstanding the fact that last year section 15A was incorporated in the Deeds Registries Act in terms of which attorneys, that is to say, conveyancers, have to assume far greater responsibility in respect of the activities of deeds offices and that the workload of deeds offices can perhaps be lightened in this way, I want to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister to do everything in his power to increase the available staff at our deeds offices so that they can continue with this mammoth task in which they are engaged. They are a part of one of the proud institutions of South Africa.

There is also a second matter to which I should like to refer. I think it is fair to say that stands provided with the necessary infrastructure are an essential prerequisite if our exceptional effort to provide housing is to succeed. The fact is, however, that there are not enough such stands available and that there is a very great demand for them. We are aware of the Venter Commission which is engaged in the formidable task of seeking a solution, but I am of opinion that, until we are able to avail ourselves of the recommendations of the Venter Commission, we should look at the local authorities who have land available but for which the necessary infrastructure has not been provided. Those are stands which in Afrikaans we incorrectly describe as “nie gediens nie”.

I want to qualify my remarks by referring to an area in Port Elizabeth known as Fair-view. In referring to Fairview, I should immediately like to thank the hon. the Minister and his senior officials and take this opportunity to pay tribute to them for the way in which they went about getting Fairview off the ground. After the hon. the Minister and members of his staff had visited the area—I was privileged to accompany them—arrangements were made immediately with the local municipality and an agreement was reached in terms of which the municipality would provide the internal services and infrastructure at the department’s expense. Rapid progress was made but the municipality met with one problem, namely, the great expense that would be involved in constructing a sewage system which would be extensive enough to cater for the new first phase and of course also later phases of the development of Fairview. Apparently an amount of R7 million is required for this purpose and additional borrowing powers had to be obtained from the State. An enormous loan such as this to a local authority and the obtaining of additional borrowing powers will inevitably result in delay. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether, in cases where local authorities have to establish an infrastructure in respect of building plots, we cannot give such local authorities borrowing powers in advance to ensure that there will be no delay in the provision of these essential services. While the hon. the Minister is considering that, I want to ask him gratefully and with anticipation whether he can give us the good news that the first phase of the development of Fairview is not far off so that our young people can purchase and occupy houses there and so that an attractive residential area can be established there.

I am sorry, but the hon. member’s time has expired.

I rise merely to afford the hon. member an opportunity to complete his speech.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. member for the privilege he is allowing me.

In conclusion there is another matter to which I should like to refer. I want to say that I have found this a pleasant afternoon. The hon. the Minister ushered it in with a strong and positive contribution. With few exceptions hon. members have been positive in their approach to the enormous challenge confronting South Africa and the world as regards the provision of housing. I want to take this opportunity to say that we must at all times be realistic when dealing with the provision of housing. We have to look at the realities in South Africa. I want to refer to some of them briefly. The first is that South Africa can say to the whole world and particularly to the developing world that no other country has made as great an effort and achieved as much success in the field of the provision of housing for Coloureds, Whites and Asians as this country has. I believe that that is the first reality we have to take into consideration.

The second reality is that as a result of the urbanization, inflation, recession and resultant unemployment being experienced throughout the world, a hopeless battle to ease the housing crisis is being fought everywhere in the world. We must accept the fact that this problem exists. The third reality we must accept is that the bitter fruits of this world trend are also being picked in South Africa. We could not avoid it. We were able to temper the effects of this worldwide trend but we could not prevent them from also having an impact on this country. The result is that today we too are of course battling with a housing shortage.

A final reality is that this department and the Government have not thrown in the towel and taken to bewailing their fate in the face of the tragic fact that this world trend has also struck us. What has been said about this? If four years ago we were able to say not only that we were making a major effort to provide housing for all our people but also that we are doing so with great success and that, as regards Whites, none other than the hon. the Leader of the Opposition had accused us of providing more housing for Whites in South Africa than was required, one realizes how much this Government has achieved.

We did not throw in the towel. Under the guidance of this hon. Minister, his deputies and brilliant officials schemes such as the national strategy of self-building projects were devised. I believe that the individual, the private sector and the State will, as good and strong partners, tackle this housing problem and resolve it to the benefit of our fatherland and all its people.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Newton Park made a very knowledgeable speech which revealed that he had been doing this work as an attorney for years. I want to tell him that he is not only a Springbok as regards rugby but that he is also a Springbok with regard to housing. I agree with him that South Africans do not have to be ashamed or have a guilt complex about what we have done for people of colour in respect of housing.

I want to tell the hon. the Minister that he impressed me today with the dignified manner in which he acted. He did perhaps have the opportunity to get at the hon. member of Pietermaritzburg North, but he acted in a dignified manner. I want to say that his actions in this regard inspire confidence. The fact that his door is always open to us and that he helps us and does not draw a distinction between parties makes him a worthy Minister and does his department credit. We want to thank them for what they have done during the past year.

I should like to say a special thank you for the Jeppe Old Age Home which cost R1,3 million. We appreciate it and I believe that when it is officially opened, we will invite the hon. the Minister to come and open the bottle of champagne.

I notice that the hon. the Deputy Minister of Development and of Land Affairs is with us again. He has been ill and we welcome him back at work.

I should like to talk about a problem that is becoming increasingly more serious. It is a community problem which is becoming worse. I am referring here to crowding out. The hon. the Minister uses the word “in-dringing” and I use the word “verdringing”, but apparently it boils down to the same thing.

As a result of the unchecked flow of people of colour to White areas, certain problems have inevitably begun to arise for the Whites there. I believe that no one can complain about the mere presence of people of colour and I also do not think that people do so. The problem arises when people’s rights are encroached upon as a result of a wrongful or unlawful presence. There are so many people of colour in Johannesburg these days that on a Saturday morning one sometimes wonders whether one is not perhaps in Soweto. Crowding out is starting to become a problem that can create friction in the furture. The hon. the Minister of Co-operation and Development has said on occasion that we must embark upon a massive, monumental development in the Sowetos so that there will then be fewer people of colour in White areas. We must create facilities and employment opportunities for them. I agree with that. If facilities for Blacks are in fact established in Soweto and at other places, as the hon. the Minister has promised, there will be a decrease and the levels of friction will be reduced. However, not much of this has materialized and we look forward to it in fact happening.

The other very big problem is the fact that many thousands of Coloureds and Indians have simply flocked to the central part of Johannesburg and have openly taken up residence in White flats and White houses. There are numerous examples of people like those who recklessly contravene the provisions of the Group Areas Act and who reside in White areas. Whites are alarmed at this and it gives rise to friction. It makes it difficult and even impossible for Whites to live peacefully in their own areas.

The Government has realized the seriousness of this matter. When during the discussion of this Vote in 1981 I referred to the worsening of the position, the hon. the Minister reacted to it and promised that the situation would be rectified. At the time I referred to the seriousness of the situation in my speech, whereupon the hon. the Minister agreed with me. Firstly, he confirmed that there could easily be 10 000 such illegal tenants in Johannesburg.

There are a lot fewer now.

I want to refer in this regard to the Hansard of the Standing Committee, col. 844, of 15 September 1981. There the hon. the Minister confirmed that there were about 10 000. The position is now that the hon. the Minister made a promise at the time. I hope the hon. the Minister does not think that I am trying to get at him now because I just want to take up the question of the promise with him.

No, I have a good reply.

In column 845 the hon. the Minister said—

The “early next year” was the beginning of 1982. The Minister continued as follows—

This was a serious matter and, as I have read out, the hon. the Minister realized how serious the matter was. This is happening in my constituency and I am saddled with these problems. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that he is being accused of not being true to his word or his undertaking.

Yes, I have read that in that little newspaper of yours.

Yes. I think the hon. the Minister will agree with me that I am entitled to ask him for an explanation.

No, I do not concede anything. I shall reply to it tomorrow. It is a good reply.

I appreciate that.

I have given some thought to why the hon. the Minister did not introduce that legislation. I have come to the conclusion that the reason for it is that the Government—and I say this with respect—no longer firmly believes in the application of the principle of the Group Areas Act with regard to Whites, Coloureds and Indians. [Interjections.] The Government no longer stands firmly by its application. I believe that the Government will in fact apply the provisions of the Group Areas Act strictly with regard to Blacks but I maintain that the Government has become soft in regard to the application of the provisions of the Group Areas Act in respect of Coloureds and Indians. If it is to win the favour of those groups, it is impossible for the Government to apply the provisions of the Act more strictly. It is being criticized simply because the Act exists. I contend that the Government has become soft in regard to the application of the provisions of the Group Areas Act and all I can deduce from this is that, in the light of the new dispensation, it is difficult for the Government to apply it and still enjoy the co-operation of the Coloureds and Indians. I believe that the Government will be compelled gradually to phase out more and more measures aimed at separation between Whites, Coloureds and Indians. With the coming into being of political integration in the new dispensation, it will only be a question of time before social integration will inevitably follow.

The CP appeals to the hon. the Minister to be true to his word with regard to the legislation. The CP warns the hon. the Minister not to underestimate the situation in Johannesburg. Whites are very unhappy and the Government must not underestimate it.

Mr. Chairman, firstly, seeing that the hon. the Deputy Minister of Community Development celebrates his birthday today, I wish to congratulate him on behalf of everybody on this side of the House. We wish him a very happy birthday and a prosperous new year.

As regards the hon. member for Jeppe, one is almost tempted to say, as has happened once before, “Now I want to deal with the hon. member for Jeppe,” and, having done so, to say, “Now that I have finished with what he had to say that was worthwhile, I will continue.” The hon. member did make a few remarks which one should, in my view, deal with fully. As regards the overcrowding to which he referred, I believe, and I agree with him, that it is the Government which must, where it is practical and realistic and where it was done in the past and can be done in future, take steps to prevent it. I believe that the hon. member is a person who has never had any reason to question that policy. I think that in the past and up to the present nobody has had any reason to question that conviction of the Government. It is an unshakeable standpoint and one of the cornerstones of the Government’s policy and will in fact continue to be so. He levelled an accusation at the hon. the Minister and was so presumptions as to warn the hon. the Minister. After all, the hon. the Minister did something for this hon. member which few Ministers have been prepared to do in the course of the performance of their duties by taking note of certain circumstances in Johannesburg and by trying to resolve them.

By whom should the matter be investigated then?

The question of the hon. member for Langlaagte is just as mixed up as his speeches always are. Let us leave the hon. member there.

Why don’t you go to your fish heads…

Order!

Mr. Chairman, I will leave that hon. member in your hands. At the moment I am dealing with the hon. member for Jeppe. As for the hon. member for Langlaagte, he always reaches such lows in debates that it is really not worthwhile to pay attention to him.

Never mind that. Rather go to your fish heads.

Order!

I want to come back to the hon. member for Jeppe. I want to put it to him that it has always been the policy of the Government that integration will not take place amongst the various groups. As regards his claims that the Government will in future be obliged to phase out social integration as a result of pressure which will be brought to bear on the Government to win the goodwill of the Coloureds and the Indians, I want to put it to him categorically that the policy of the NP and the Government is clearly based on, first of all, honesty towards all population groups. That is why we went to the various population groups with a practical orientation of our policy and said that that was what it was all about. It was not necessary for us to go to them, as they did, with a Coloured policy which is not feasible. I believe that in the months ahead it will be proved that this Government will, as reflected by the progress it made during the by-elections, further prove the acceptability of its policy in the by-elections which still lie ahead.

I should like to come back to the debate. Whenever we are dealing with the Department of Community Development, we are inclined to think merely in terms of housing. However, community development implies more than this. It implies, in effect, the development of a community in all its facets. It implies not only the building of houses, but the creation of contented communities where people are living, working and sleeping, with the accent on “living” in the true sense of the word. A great deal is being said about a total housing strategy. I want to contend today that I do not believe that something like that exists or could possibly exist. Every Minister of this department can only do what is required at that particular juncture and try to rectify possible mistakes of the past. Without, therefore, trying to give the present Minister a testimonial or to condemn him, something I am not fit to do, I just want to state what I like and what I do not like. What I do not like is, firstly, the hon. member for Langlaagte, but let us leave the matter there.

I like the pragmatic and no-nonsense approach of the hon. the Minister, his ability and willingness to make decisions and to implement them, to take advice or to reject it, but most of all I like what he told us this afternoon and during the past few months. In this regard I like the 500 000 houses which he told us were going to be sold. I will come back to this again. I like the way the hon. the Minister talked about Cato Manor and the Indians today and stated clearly and unambiguously that the Indians living there will themselves, as a result of previous negotiations, have to initiate development and undertake the necessary building. There is nothing wrong with our party’s policy. There is nothing wrong with our Government. The general public want us to react positively. This hon. the Minister tells me things in a way which makes me—and I believe the general public—believe that success will be achieved. In this way we shall eliminate the sort of things which have, in the meantime, become part of our system.

I should now like to come back to the question of the sale of the 500 000 houses. To my mind this was a wonderful announcement. However, will it be feasible? What worries me is whether the hon. the Minister and his department have the people to implement this scheme within a reasonable space of time. I have tried to ascertain what it would entail in the way of staff. If one has 500 000 houses and a half an hour is spent in drawing up the letter of sale, it means that it will take one person 114 working years to do so. Let us assume that it takes five hours to clinch a deal from the time a house is allocated to a person until it is registered in his name. This will mean that about 3 500 workers will be required to handle this situation. I hope and trust that the hon. the Minister and his department will be able to handle this situation so that this scheme can be put into practice within a certain time without coming to grief in the process and eventually becoming impossible to implement.

Then I also want to ask that the rentals of units which are not sold should be adjusted realistically and brought up to date. I believe that we must accept overcrowding as a concept. In the Cape Peninsula there is a large measure of overcrowding, in some instances between 50% to 100%. The danger inherent here is that overcrowding is in some instances taking place voluntarily and intentionally. This type of overcrowding has the effect that people fail to contribute their share towards the creation of new housing, the creation of a new housing strategy and new housing structures. I believe, therefore, that those people must be involved so that money for new housing may be created.

I should like to refer to an article which appeared in the Rand Daily Mail of 18 March this year. The heading is “Praise from an American prof.” It reads as follows—

With reference to this article, I want to say that it is one of the biggest compliments which this hon. Minister and his department could have hoped to be paid by a professor who is an internationally acknowledged expert in the field of housing and community development. I do not think this compliment would have been given easily, but, on the other hand, I also think that we should not overlook the criticism which is being expressed here. I therefore want to put it that the cost of housing is, in my view, too high. We shall have to consider lowering the cost structure of housing and the high standards which people expect. This professor also said—

In this regard one should take cognizance of what is being built with clay in the rest of the world. One has but to look at what has been built with ordinary clay in Lima in Peru. This is a much cheaper building method, and one asks oneself whether one should not apply cheaper building methods. [Time expired.]

In accordance with Standing Order No. 82J the Committee adjourned at 18h00.