Mr. Chairman, I am a little nervous. I am not used to this sort of thing. I hope hon. members will forgive me, but with so many formidable educationists sitting behind me…

And in front of you.

Yes, and in front of me, I am sure things will go well.

It is a great pleasure for me to deal today for the first time with the Vote of the Department of Education and training in this Committee. Allow me at the outset to express my thanks and appreciation to the Director-General and his entire staff for the competent way in which they are carrying out the task allotted to them with enthusiasm and perseverance. I also want to thank them most sincerely for the wonderful reception they gave me. I am not an educationist but I have learnt a great deal from these people and I have been impressed by their knowledge time and again. I also want to thank them most sincerely for the sacrifices they make in doing what they do. When I asked one of them what has been his most important task during the past few years, he told me his most important task has been to educate Ministers of Education and Training. I accept that.

I should like to say something about this Department which is not always appreciated. When I met the Black inspectors in the Free State region, one of the senior Black inspectors told us on that occasion that he wanted to say on behalf of the Black community of South Africa that people did not realize the sacrifice the Whites were making in that they did not dedicate themselves to educating their own children but to educating the children of other nations, and that on behalf of his population group he wanted to express his sincere thanks and appreciation to those Whites who devoted their lives to the education of other people’s children. I should like this Committee to take cognizance of the fact that real sacrifices are made in this Department to educate those people’s children and that the Black people appreciate it very much indeed.

I am sure hon. members will agree with me that the Department’s annual report for 1982 is probably one of the most comprehensive reports to be tabled thus far. The report illustrates the remarkable progress that has been made in the field of education for Blacks. In this report the achievements of a staff of about 50 000 and pupils numbering in excess of 1,6 million are clearly reflected. I also hope that I will be allowed to take this opportunity to express a particular word of thanks to Mr. W. P. Steenkamp, the former Deputy Director-General of this Department, who retired on pension with effect from 1 May of this year. Mr. Steenkamp is a man with unique capabilities and a thorough knowledge and experience of the Department and its activities. For many years he dedicated himself to promoting education services for Blacks. I have only the greatest praise and appreciation for the wonderful and extremely professional work Mr. Steenkamp did over the years. I think I speak on behalf of everyone in this Committee when I say that we wish him and his family everything of the best in this period of well-earned rest.

It is also a great pleasure to be able to announce that Mr. J. Nienaber, the former Chief Director of extramural training of the Department, was promoted to the post of Deputy Director-General with effect from 1 May 1983. Mr. Nienaber’s association with the Department covers many years and I have no doubt that he will be able to accomplish this vast and responsible task successfully. I should like to wish him success and everything of the best in his new post.

I also want to take this opportunity to congratulate Dr. F. P. Retief, former rector of Medunsa, the medical university of Southern Africa, on his appointment as Director-General of Health and Welfare. I want to express the appreciation of the Department and myself for the unselfish service he rendered in the interests of Medunsa during the difficult establishment years of that institution. I wish him everything of the best in his new post.

At the level of tertiary education the need for co-ordinating activities again required that existing liaison mechanisms be rationalized. I just want to announce that the co-ordinating committee for State universities has been abolished and that the Committee of Rectors and the Black Universities Advisory Council has been reconstituted. A joint secretariat for both committees is at present provided by the Department. The latter committee advises the Minister, inter alia, on the establishment, development and expansion of universities and technikons. For the information of hon. members I want to mention that I have appointed two committees to investigate and formulate proposals on the financing of both technikons and universities according to a financing model on a formula basis.

I can also mention that steps are now being taken to constitute the co-ordinating council for technical education…

In recognition of the supportive role the Council for Education and Training has played in the formulation of general policy, I also want to express my thanks and appreciation to the members of that council. In my recent meeting with the executive committee of the council, stimulating ideas were exchanged about various factors which adversely affect the quality of education. I think the Committee will allow me to refer briefly to this council and particularly to its executive committee. I should like to mention the names of the members of the executive committee of this council. I want to do so because I want to give recognition to these people as individuals for the great contribution they are making and for the dedication with which they assist me with advice in connection with problems in education, particularly in connection with the recent matriculation results. The chairman of the committee is Dr. R. Cingo. Recently Dr. Cingo suffered a serious brain haemorrhage. We hear that he is recovering and we hope that he will recover fully. The vice chairman is Prof. M. E. R. Mathivha and the members are Prof. E. T. Mokgokong of Medunsa, Dr. S. K. Matseke and Mr. I. Zwane. The general secretary of the committee is Mr. F. Seboni. I also want to express my thanks to Dr. Gushe who was the secretary of the advisory committee and who is the campus director of Vista in Soweto at the moment. I want to wish him everything of the best in respect of the important development of that university.

There are two matters I should like to deal with briefly and in respect of which I want to make an announcement. In the first place I want to refer to Black schools in proclaimed agricultural holding areas. For several years now the Department has been experiencing problems with the establishment of school facilities for Black children—I am referring now to Black children lawfully there—on proclaimed agricultural holdings, and I want now to deal briefly with the guidelines the Department has laid down in this connection. In the first place, the general guideline is that no school facilities, provided by the Department on proclaimed agricultural holdings, or new private school facilities, will be supported. In the second place, the Department will only by way of exception and under exceptional circumstances investigate and consider the establishment and/or support of specific applications for such facilities. In the third place, education facilities will be made available for such Black children either in neighbouring Black townships or on adjoining portions of farms or in areas where such facilities can be provided without causing problems for the specific area and in consultation with the owners of those portions and/or areas. In the fourth place, I want to make it clear at the outset that the 25 aided schools at present on agricultural holdings and that have given many years of satisfactory service, will remain as long as the circumstances surrounding the individual schools are accepted by the relevant communities and they are satisfied with them.

I should also like to say something about farm schools. A second problem the Department has been experiencing for many years now is high school facilities for Black children on farms. Allow me to say at once that there is no single simplistic solution to this problem. However, I want to lay down the following guidelines for high school facilities for Black children on farms. The Department recognizes the necessity for secondary school facilities for these children. The Department is therefore prepared, solely on merit, to consider favourably the establishment of high school facilities for these children at pre-selected places in consultation with interested persons and bodies at those places. In this connection I am referring in particular to administration boards, farming communities, national States and independent States. When the establishment of such a secondary school facility is considered, hostel facilities will also be considered at those places under specific circumstances and on the merit of each one. Such facilities have already been planned in the past on an ad hoc basis such as, for example, at Soshonguwe, at Imbali near Pietermaritzburg, at Fort Beaufort and on a farm near Nelspruit. At all these places except Nelspruit hostel facilities are provided.

I just want to say the following about primary farm schools. As hon. members know, farm schools are built by the farmers themselves and the Department subsidizes the erection and the maintenance of these facilities according to a specific formula which has recently been greatly improved. However, with a view to rationalization the administrative simplification of the handling of the matter for the convenience of the farming community and to enable the farmer to determine the financial allocation beforehand, the Department has reconsidered the matter and I can now say that this formula will be abolished and will be replaced by affixed amount as follows: Single classroom—R5 000 maximum; toilet facilities—R100 per toilet; storeroom—R500; and an office—R500. As far as maintenance is concerned, R500 will be paid per classroom over a period of five years. In view of the circumstances we have also decided to subsidize the relevant schools from 1 April 1984 in connection with the provision of water. Unfortunately, this amount is not yet known, but the Department is investigating this matter and as soon as the investigation has been completed we shall know what this amount will be and the subsidies will come into effect on 1 April 1984. As far as the lump sum amounts are concerned, there are still investigations which have to be completed because this will have to take place subject to specific conditions. During the next few months the Department will work on those conditions and as soon as they have been cleared, inter alia, with the Treasury, we shall announce them and they will come into effect from that date.

The last point I want to make concerns houses for teachers on the farms. For some time now the Department has been aware of the difficulties some Black teachers at farm schools experience in finding suitable housing under specific circumstances. I am able to announce today that in order to rectify this matter the relevant Ministers have decided in principle that on the basis of agreed conditions farmers will also be able to obtain loans to provide housing where necessary for a teacher or teachers on their farms on which there are schools. As soon as the scheme has been finalized, the particulars will be announced.

Thank you for this opportunity and that is all I have to say for the moment.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask for the privilege of the half hour. First of all, on behalf of this side of the House I would like to congratulate and welcome the new hon. Minister on his first Vote. We look forward to interesting discussions during the course of today. We hope that in his post he will be able to bring about further improvements that are needed in Black education.

We would like to associate ourselves with the remarks made in connection with the retirement of Mr. Steenkamp. We wish him a healthy and happy retirement. We also congratulate Mr. Nienaber on his promotion as from the beginning of this month. I will refer to other matters mentioned by the hon. the Minister in the course of my speech and other hon. members will also be doing so in the course of their speeches. I am pleased that some extra attention is being given to school children outside the urban areas. I am also pleased that the hon. the Minister recognizes the role that qualified White people can play in Black education and I hope that will spill over so that it can be made as easy and attractive as possible for White teachers to obtain jobs in Black education where they are needed.

I would also like to thank the Department for the 1982 report. As the hon. the Minister has said this Department has developed a reputation for providing a great deal of information and detail. It certainly is useful, if sometimes mind-boggling, going through it. I would like to refer to just a few aspects that one welcomes because my time is extremely limited. For example, on page 4 of the report mention is made of the introduction of a series of courses in education management for, amongst other people, school principals. This is very important if one is going to get the maximum benefit out of the resources that are being put into education.

I also welcome the attention that is being given to public relations in relation to the pupils themselves, the teachers and the public at large. In this regard I would like to thank the Department for the information session we had earlier this year which was useful and interesting to us all. In the field of communication and public relations, as long as one is sticking to the facts, it is almost impossible to do too much. There is one thing which I did notice in this regard, and that is that there is no specific mention, that I came across in this report, of liaison with teachers associations and perhaps the hon. the Minister would like to comment on that when he replies later on in this debate.

Having said that, I do have some problems with the report. The first one concerns the problems that arise from fragmentation between the Department of Education and Training, the National States and, as they have come about over the years, the independent homelands. It very often makes useful and valid comparisons difficult and sometimes impossible, because the base on which one is looking at the figures is changing quite often. The other criticism that I have is that I believe that while the good the Department is doing, is contained in this report, many problem areas are ignored completely. I think that is unfortunate because when one comes across things of significance that are not mentioned, one becomes concerned at what else is possibly missing from the report. I will return more specifically to this point later on.

In discussing this Vote one could dissect the past and point to numerous sins of commission and omission. Sometimes that is necessary for illustrative purposes but generally I do not think it is particularly helpful if we are gong to look at the future. The key questions which we need address ourselves to are the following: First of all, is the correct approach being adopted towards Black education? Secondly, is Black education enjoying the priority that it deserves? I regret to say that, in my view, the answer to both these questions is a resounding “no”. It is not necessarily the fault of the Department itself or even of an individual Minister but of the Government as a whole. One has to answer “no” to both those questions. I would like to warn that it is not enough to claim that a great deal is being done in Black education. We need to judge the performance of the Government against the size of the problem. Are we moving steadily towards a solution to the Black education crisis or not? We dare not mistake activity for achievement.

I believe that in this regard in recent times the Government has become dangerously complacent. We fortunately do not have any school boycotts of consequence, no riots and, unfortunately, as a result of that I think that things are being allowed to slide. I will attempt to substantiate that right now.

To start with, let us look at the De Lange Report. We all know that that Committee was set up as a result of the turmoil in education from 1976 to 1980. Although the report is in the first instance being handled by the hon. Minister of National Education, it is more critical for Black education that any other education department. There have been many innovations and things that have arisen from this report but the soul of this report, the heart of what the report is about, is being ignored. The basic demands of the turmoil in education in the 70s are not being met. Let me list these: Getting rid of separate discriminatory systems of education, placing all education under one ministry and giving all children equal educational opportunities. The last two, namely the placing of all education under one ministry and the giving of all children equal education opportunities, are the minimum requirements and even in the Government’s ideology, a great deal can be done in that regard.

As far as the creation of a single education department is concerned, the hon. Minister of National Education, when his Vote was discussed a week or two ago, said the following (Hansard, 2 May 1983, col. 6040)—

That hon. Minister—and, in fact, the Government as a whole because that argument has been used time and time again—avoids the question of a single education department by arguing against something that no-one is asking for. No-one is asking for one department to run schools at an operational level. If one looks at White education it would be considered by people in this country that White education falls under one education department but, in actual fact, responsibilities are delegated on a massive scale to the provinces but that does not remove the fact that there is one Minister of Education. No-one on this side of the House that I am aware of suggests that all White schools should be put under the Minister of National Education. Therefore, when one talks of one department it does not mean that one will have no flexibility and have massive centralisation of all activities.

The hon. the Minister of National Education, in arguing against one department, also said the following (Hansard, 2 May 1983, col. 6041)—

One can argue about that but it conflicts with what this Government is doing in practice. English and Afrikaans speaking Whites, as far as White school children and education is concerned, fall under one department, the Department of National Education, and I do not think that anyone will suggest that the cultures of English-speaking and Afrikaans-speaking White people in South Africa, are the same. Also, under one ministry, the Ministry of Internal Affairs, one has all Coloured education, whether they are English or Afrikaans speaking, as well as all Indian education, whether the Indians concerned are Hindu, Muslim or Christian. To argue, therefore, that one cannot have divergent culture groups under one education department also makes no sense.

The arguments put forward by the National Party for not having a single ministry and a minister of education do not wash. The fact is that the Government lacks the political courage to do what it knows is necessary. However, it should realize that in the same way as it is a politically sensitive issue amongs some Whites who wish to cling to White baasskap and privilege, it is also a major source of anger amongst millions of Blacks who wish to be free from oppression and educational discrimination.

As far as the De Lange Report is concerned, the White Paper on that Report is long overdue. The hon. the Minister of National Education mentioned that it is in the process of being produced, and I would like to ask the hon. the Minister today whether he can tell us when we can see some further action in regard to that Report.

The second aspect which I would like to refer to in substantiating my allegation of complacency on the part of the Government is the question of the new Constitution. Black education would appear to be a “general” matter as opposed to an “own” matter in that Constitution. It warrants a mere footnote and, that in itself, emphasizes the third class status of urban Blacks and Blacks outside of the homelands in this country. We also know that in terms of that plan Blacks will not participate when the financial cake is divided to establish who is going to get what in terms of resources in education and, of course, in other fields too. I believe that the whole proposed structure will aggravate racial polarization. If we reject Blacks as partners in governing the country that we share, how can we expect them to accept our good faith when we claim that we want them to have the best possible education?

The hon. the Minister of National Education again referred to matters touching on Black education when he said that there should be a joint central ministerial function which will have the responsibility for macro education policy as a matter of common concern. I would like to ask the hon. the Minister whether that will include Black education, because I think it is critical. It was not entirely clear from what the hon. Minister of National Education said whether Black education was included in that macro education policy. What about Black participation at grassroots level in formulating education policy and their participation there? I appreciate the work and the advice given by the Council for Education and Training but I think one has to start looking for additional inputs closer to the grassroots, parental and community levels. We all know that education does not operate in a vacuum. The De Lange Report spells this out very clearly and I would like to quote briefly from page 210 where it states—

A little further on the following is stated—

That is what the De Lange Commission said in that regard.

Thirdly, Mr. Chairman, I wish to refer to the 1983-’84 budget specifically. I believe it is a bad news budget for Black education. Overall it is up 18% to R561 million, which at first glance and compared with some other departments does not look too bad, but I think it is noteworthy that it is the lowest percentage increase for at least six years, possibly longer. The primary education budget is up only 14%, which is hardly keeping pace with the rate of inflation. Secondary education is up 17%. These two combined should be up 20% at least. Are they going to stand still and not in fact move backwards? Tertiary education is only up 8,5%. Adult education is down 14,4%. I believe this is a an astonishing and worrying situation. Expenditure on tertiary education is down in real terms. Adult education expenditure is down by a third in real terms. I should like the hon. the Minister, when he replies, to dwell on adult education to some extent. A lot of people running centres of various sorts are very worried about what is going on and what exactly the Government has in mind both for its own activities and for those that it subsidizes in this regard. I hope the hon. the Minister will give us some detail on that.

When one takes into account inflation and growth in pupil numbers one finds that the real per capita expenditure on Black school education has been reduced for this financial year. I find that disgraceful and inexcusable.

This analysis I have made of the Government reaction to key aspects of the De Lange report, the new constitutional proposals and the 1983-’84 budget leads one to one simple conclusion and that is that the Government no longer considers Black education to be a top priority in the way it has been in the recent past. It is a tragedy, but the evidence is there for all to see.

I want to come to what is not in the annual report. There are a variety of problem areas, for example schooling in rural areas, to which the hon. the Minister has referred, mass boycotts and expulsions at Black universities, the problems relating to or arising from compulsory education where it has been introduced, administration problems and the problems of the examination results. I wish to address myself merely to the last two points in the time that I have available.

Firstly I want to refer to administration. On page 46 of the report, under “Staff Administration”, it says—

However, the Auditor-General gave evidence to a Select Committee of Parliament—and I quote from The Cape Times of 21 January—

There have been other problems relating to non-payment of teachers. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether the situation has changed and whether it has improved dramatically, because I am most astonished that there is merely a bland, passing reference to this in the report which suggests that all is well, but which is entirely contrary to the evidence given by the Auditor-General.

I want to refer to another example on the administrative level, namely supplementary examinations and the distress and inconvenience caused by the supply of wrong information. In January last year the information given on the print-out gave the wrong closing date for examination entries. That caused a great many problems. This year again the wrong closing date was given and the wrong month was given for the writing of one supplementary category examination. I think these things need to be looked at.

I now wish to refer to examination results. In 1982 60 000 candidates wrote Std. 10 and 51% passed. In 1981 75% passed out of a much lower number of pupils who wrote. Now the numbers are increasing but the percentage of those passing has dropped steadily from over 80% in 1976. Surely this can mean only one thing, namely that while the quantity may be increasing the quality of education must be dropping for that number of pupils to be failing.

Finally there are some questions I would like to put to the hon. the Minister upon which I will not elaborate but on which I would like him to comment. Firstly, what further improvement, if any, is there in the drop-out rate at schools? I have mentioned the question of children dropping out even though there is compulsory education. Last year the Minister mentioned that the extension of the pre-primary subsidy to 3- and 4- year olds was going to be considered in the near future. Has progress been made in that regard? What are the target pupil:teacher ratios and pupil:class-room ratios for this coming financial year?

In conclusion I want to refer to the concern about schooling in rural areas and national states. Last year the Minister said that attention was being devoted to the disparities developing among various education departments and that the department was going to be involved in co-ordination and planning to achieve uniformity. I should very much like to hear what progress has been made in that regard as well.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens delivered a diatribe here about the education of the Black community in general and pointed out what he considered to be certain problems. He referred, inter alia, to the fact that insufficient priority is given to Black education. I shall return to this statement of his in the course of my speech.

He also argued again about the necessity for one department for education in South Africa. This has been a point of dispute between ourselves and the PFP over the years which we shall probably never settle but about which I shall also say a few words later.

Mr. Chairman, I accept the fact that when the hon. the Minister dealt with his first piece of legislation in his capacity as Minister of Education and Training he was congratulated by the parties on his appointment to this portfolio. Unfortunately, I was not present on that occasion because I was involved in the Battle of the “Klowe”. In this connection I want to say at once that it was a real privilege and pleasure for me to be able to participate in that battle. It was an even greater pleasure and privilege to be able to participate in the result in Waterkloof but we shall probably have more to say about that later. For that reason I want to apologize to the hon. the Minister for not being able to participate in the debate on the first legislation he handled, but it is never too late to congratulate him. He has only been in charge of this portfolio for nine months. I made a few inquiries about the hon. the Minister’s official itinerary in his duties as Minister. In his official capacity he has travelled virtually the length and breadth of the Republic to visit schools and persons and bodies, including inspectors, officials, teachers, children and parents. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that this is greatly appreciated, not only by the department but also by the teachers and the relevant communities. Apart from my congratulations to him and his good wife, I also want to convey the thanks of all concerned for this enthusiasm he has shown. I do not want to be selfish but in the interests of Black education I wish him a long and fruitful sojourn in this department.

Black education is growing up. The annual report attests to this. For that reason I want again to express the gratitude of this side of the House for the fact that the report was made available in plenty of time to enable us to study it thoroughly.

This is the third year since the passing of the Education and Training Act. In that Act a specific principle was accepted, a principle to which the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens referred and with which the official Opposition disagrees substantially, as we heard again this morning—and we shall probably debate this matter with them in the years ahead—namely the principle of an own department of education for Blacks, the recognition of an own national character as far as education in South Africa is concerned. We shall build onto and expand the principle of own education among the three participating national groups, the Whites, the Coloureds and the Asians, in the new dispensation, and the same will apply to Black education. I have already said this in the past, but I should like to repeat it: Education is ethnically oriented because it affects the very essence of a nation or group. Education may never become a plaything with which to try to achieve petty political short-term benefits. I therefore reject the official Opposition’s standpoint of one education department for everyone in South Africa in the same way as I reject the gossip of the CP that a Coloured—one sometimes even hears that it will be a Black—will become Minister of White education.

Are the Coloureds a nation?

Both of these two standpoints are aimed solely at creating emotional confusion and building up feelings against the Government and the NP, but they do not serve education as a whole.

What is education? [Interjections.]

I think the hon. member for Rissik should start again in Grade I so as to understand what education is. The fact that we on this side of the Committee accept the principle of own education means that Black education brings tremendous challenges to the fore, not only challenges to and responsibilities for the department but also this Committee and particularly the NP as the governing party which has to bear the responsibility for Black education.

Education in the national States is starting to find its feet. There have been growth and development problems but I am confident that true to their traditions and customs they will succeed in making the grade and meeting the requirements of the times.

This Committee and the hon. the Minister and his department are responsible for Black education in general, particularly in the White area. It is here where the demands will become greater and more urgent in the future. We are creating growth points in development areas. At present the Commission for Co-operation and Development is also investigating this aspect which can eventually establish a shifting pattern which will differ greatly from the projected growth in pupils which is at present predicted.

If regional development succeeds—and I believe it will succeed—and if the inexorable growth in the school population in the White metropolitan areas can be halted, the department will have to adjust to this. An intensive investigation is at present being undertaken by the Commission for Co-operation and Development into Blacks in White residential areas; in other words, the commission is concentrating and working on an investigation in connection with the urban Blacks as well. I cannot and I do not want to be prescriptive but it seems to me as if this specific commission—and I am grateful that so many members of the commission including the chairman, are present here—will in its future investigation and planning have to give attention to the school population. I cannot say to what extent this will be practical and practicable and I do not want to express an opinion in this regard either. I should like to request the hon. the Minister to investigate this matter and give attention to the following aspects: In the first place, the question of whether the commission’s terms of reference can also be extended to include the investigation and handling of the Black school population in White Africa; and, in the second place, the question of whether a few of its members could not possibly be singled out to give specific attention to the planning of education for Blacks in White urban areas. I feel it is essential that this be done. I cannot go into whether this is practicable or possible. We should like to know from the hon. the Minister to what extent it would be possible.

However, it would be an exercise in futility if the commission were to give attention to the Blacks in White areas and, if regional development takes place, its effect on the movement and possible shifting of the Black school population were not taken into account. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I rise merely to afford the hon. member the opportunity to continue.

Thank you. What I am therefore advocating is that there be a closer liaison between the Department of Education and Training and, for example, a sub-committee of the Commission for Cooperation and Development, in order to be able to plan for the future of Black education properly.

I want now to refer to the budget and more specifically to the amount of R561,3 million allocated for Black education. In this regard I take it amiss of the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens for having said that this is an inadequate provision in the budget. The increase of R85,5 million, or 18%, is an increase that can reasonably be accommodated in the inflationary conditions in which our economy finds itself at present. I want to thank the hon. the Minister and all concerned, as well as the hon. the Minister of Finance, for seeing their way clear to make this budget possible.

This proves the NP’s bona fides in putting Black education on a par with the education of other groups in South Africa. The demands of Black education in South Africa are high and exacting. I do not think we can reason this away. In the rest of Africa the development in the field of education is purely a domestic matter. The competitive element existing in South Africa does not exist in those countries. Here in South Africa we have therefore to deal with the necessity to eliminate the historic backlog existing in Black education; that is the reason for the wilful demand of the official Opposition that Black education should suddenly and immediately be put on a par with White education and fall under one department. Such a standpoint is irresponsible and does not serve Black education, but the cry of the far right wing groups in South Africa that the Government is doing everything for the Blacks to the exclusion of everyone else is equally irresponsible. The persons and groups making this accusation are simply revealing their political and constitutional stupidity.

What is far right wing and what is right wing?

There have been so many statements already about the far right wing.

Introduce some sense into the debate.

All it is a deliberate statement or a reckless distortion of the facts—of simple stupidity.

The NP accepts the principle of the development in its own right of every population group in South Africa, but is also prepared to be of assistance in all fields, namely finance, government, etc. In this process of giving assistance a South Africa is being created which rests on a solid foundation.

Education is the foundation of an economically sound and well-established South Africa and that is why the NP has set itself the goal not only of establishing White education on a sound footing but also of giving positive attention to the education of the other groups, and that is what it has done. As far as this Vote is concerned, there has been a real improvement in the standard of Black education as a whole.

Heavy demands will be made of manpower in South Africa in the future and we can no longer afford to exclude a single person from the education and training process. Let us cease our petty and detestable politics of everything for the White man and the Black man must remain the servant, the hewer of wood and the drawer of water.

Who is practising that sort of politics?

Certainly not the NP. If the hon. member wants to judge others by himself he may do so.

Whom are you referring to?

We are entering a new dispensation in South Africa in which the Coloureds and the Indians will be included in a constitutional set-up in which they will have a responsible say over their own and a joint say over general matters. In this process we have to bear in mind that there is another group in South Africa who are part of South Africa outside their national States. Let us work together in a direction in which they will still feel bound to their traditional States while accepting the fact that they are an integral part of the South African way of life and the urban setup. Let us help them to be their own man and recognize the fact that they are entitled to live decent lives. That is the task of White South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, permit me, too, to begin by congratulating the hon. the Minister on his appointment to this very important post. It is also one of the most ennobling and uplifting tasks performed here in South Africa. I should like to say to the hon. the Minister that he had better enjoy it while he is there, because he is not going to stay there long. It will not be for long, because not only Wonderboom, but many other of these constituencies, will no longer be represented by them next time, after the election.

[Inaudible.]

The hon. member for Standerton is the second one.

The second Jan Smuts.

Not only the constituency of Wonderboom, but a sufficient number of others will fall so that in the next election there will be another government, and it will be a Conservative government.

In the second instance I should like to pay tribute to the officials of the Department who have left the service, inter alia Mr. Steenkamp, and I should also like to extend my sincere congratulations to the others who have been promoted.

Within the sphere of our calling on this continent, that department, the Department of Education and Training, is the one which has made by far the greatest contribution to fulfilling that calling, viz. to bringing light, knowledge and development to the people of Africa and the indigenous peoples in this country. Out of this Department ten departments have developed which are today performing an outstanding service to their own peoples. I think that this is one of the greatest achievements to their credit. If we consider the people of the Western world, and other people who have been involved in Africa, we see that not one of them has thus far been able to leave a monument such as this in South Africa. It is an enduring monument, because the people are themselves carrying on with what was bequeathed to them in order to uplift themselves and to improve their standard of living. I think this is a fine achievement, and I want to wish the Department all of the best and say to it: Carry on with the good work: You are providing an outstanding service to South Africa and the people you serve.

I should like to refer to one remark made by the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens—and I think it is a highly irresponsible remark. He said that because there had been no riots in recent times there had been a degeneration in the provision of education. I think that is the most irresponsible remark imaginable.

Is it true or not?

It is not true. Mr. Chairman, it is not true.

*Sir, it is not true, because one cannot make progress in an atmosphere of riots and chaos. There can only be progress when there is stability and peace. The hon. member must be grateful that this has been the case. However, the fact that he comes here and says that there has been degeneration, is a blatant method of telling the people that they must cause riots if they want to make progress.

Nonsense.

That is exactly what will be to the detriment of the progress of those people, and therefore I say that that is absolutely irresponsible. I take it amiss of the hon. member.

However, I want to add that the hon. member’s argument is absolutely logical in terms of his philosophy, but if one looks at the hon. members on the other side of the Committee it is obvious that they are faced with a tremendous dilemma. They talk about “own” interests and “own” affairs, but what they envisage doing flies in the face of the basic philosophy that they also try to proclaim, because they have departed from their basic philosophy. What they are doing is trying to reconcile two things that are irreconcilable with one another. It is absolutely clear to me that our policy involves less discrimination than does policy that those hon. members have now. That hon. member came here and provided evidence of that. He said that a Coloured person could not become the Minister of that co-ordinating education department. After all, that can only be the case if blatant discrimination is embodied in that system. Therefore the policy of those people embodies discrimination. We say that each people will have its own minister of education. Our policy does not involve any discrimination. I want to say to those hon. members that when they departed from their basic philosophy, they also had to make use of discriminatory measures to be able to maintain their position. That is not the way to do it. I want to say to the hon. members that if one has one department that lays down policy for everyone, then that will necessarily lead to discrimination against many people. We believe—and we believe this with absolute conviction—that the children of every people can only develop to the maximum extent if they do so within the context of their own system of education. We say that it is a prerequisite for the maximum development of all, that each should have its own educational system. Only in an educational system of their own, based on the culture of the people, formed by its religious convictions, bearing the character of the people and suiting the people, can the children develop to the maximum extent. Now we say that the instrument whereby one has to develop this is the Department of Education.

We say so too.

But you say something else that is diametrically opposed to that. I say, therefore, that what has been established in South Africa, viz. ten departments of education for Black people, is today developing the “own” educational system of the Black people, which will enable them to develop to the maximum extent. However, if one deprives the people of the instrument of policy, one deprives them of the most important instrument whereby to develop their own educational system. How can one develop an educational system if one does not have full control of the educational policy? If one has one department which is going to make policy for all, no-one is going to be able to develop his own educational system or to develop it further than it has been developed already, because everyone would then establish one common policy for everyone—the most important instrument.

[Inaudible.]

We shall discuss this next week. An education policy is not an “own” affair for each people. It is a matter of common interest and it will be a matter of common interest in the future. Of course that is so. I say to you: Bring me proof today and I shall be very grateful. However, there is no proof. On the contrary, the opposite of that is stated, viz. that education policy will not be determined by each people. In the second place, each people must accept the financial responsibility for its own education. No people will have the right to tax its people. It will not even have the right to negotiate loans to provide for its own education. In other words people are being deprived of, that ethos which needs to develop in a people, namely, that satisfying feeling it gets that it is making its own contribution towards developing its own education, and that which belongs to it which it regards as fine and precious. It will not even be in a position to make a contribution towards its own education in accordance with its own decision and in terms of its own provisions.

That is not true.

Of course it is true. Members speak about “own” affairs. As far as education is concerned, they will only be agents. They will not be able to determine what the policy will be, they will not be able to determine what the tax will be and they will not even be able to determine whether they can negotiate alone with regard to education. [Interjections.] Of course. In this new dispensation each people will be an agent, and it will have no say over its own affairs. It will receive instructions as to how it has to carry this out and will have to act in terms of those instructions. Now it is being said that this is gossip. I want to say that this is not gossip. Show me the proof that this is not so. I challenge the hon. members on that side of the House: Bring me the proof today that that is not so. They cannot do so. Therefore I say to them that discrimination is built into their system, because no people will in future be in a position to build up its own educational system. And when we come to matters of common concern, I want to say that surely one does not need a co-ordinating department or a co-ordinating government to talk about matters of common concern. One can only speak meaningfully about matters of common concern if one does so as a sovereign people. After all, we talk to other nations of the world about their education and we see what we can learn by doing so. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I shall react further to the hon. member for Rustenburg in a moment, but permit me to begin by associating myself with what he said about the extremely irresponsible remark by the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens. I just want to say that I agree with the hon. member for Lichtenburg as far as the remark is concerned, because I think it was extremely irresponsible of the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens.

Yes, but is it true?

Of course it is not true, and that has already been replied to. The hon. member for Lichtenburg did so. I now want to leave it at that. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to come back to the hon. member for Lichtenburg. I am really sorry about the conduct of the hon. member for Lichtenburg who—and I want to say this here and now across the floor of the House—meant a great deal to this department in the years when he was the Minister responsible. The hon. member for Lichtenburg knows exactly what the view of this side of the House is as regards Black education. Now, however, he comes here and tries to drag in the constitutional debate that we shall be conducting in the House of Assembly next week, as if that constitution is also concerned with Black education. The hon. member for Lichtenburg knows as well as I do that that Act concerns the Whites, the Coloureds and the Indians. What is more, that hon. member now wants to give the public at large the impression that there will be a single educational department that will determine policy in respect of Whites, Coloureds, Indians and Blacks. I say to him here and now that that is an untruth. It is untrue, because as much as two to three weeks ago the hon. the Minister of National Education debated this matter in the House of Assembly. At the time he pointed out that in accordance with the points of view of the Government, as stated in reply to the 11 principles of the provision of education as contained in the HSRC Report, this Government adopts the same standpoint of separate schools for separate population groups and also separate educational departments. It was said in so many words. This was done two to three weeks ago by the hon. the Minister. And surely the hon. member knows that it is true.

That is not the whole story.

I shall tell the whole story. Just give me a chance and listen. What is more, the hon. member for Lichtenburg knows this full well, because as recently as a year or so ago he put it strongly to this side of the House that there was common ground within education too. And the most important argument for this—and the hon. member knows that—is that the products of the various educational systems must be accommodated in a joint field of labour. I now want to ask the hon. member for Lichtenburg across the floor of the House: Does he not think that it is imperative that the standard, with regard to certification, in respect of Whites, Coloureds, Indians and Blacks should be the same?

You do not need a joint Minister for that.

No, but wait a moment. The point where the communality comes in, is the following: One has to establish a structure in terms of which we can speak together with regard to, inter alia, certification and standards.

But you do not have a mixed Government for that.

But surely we did not say there should be a Government. Surely we did not say that a mixed Government was necessary for that. That is not stated in the new Constitution Bill. That hon. member does not know what he is talking about. I want to go further. It is surely equally true—as it was stated by the hon. the Minister of National Education—that when one is dealing with the investigation into educational structures and the research aspect, then this is once again in the interests of Indian, Coloured, Black and White, because eventually this, too, must necessarily lead to equal standards and certification, which is of such vital importance. I wish to state categorically that it is the unshakeable standpoint of this side of the House that education is an “own” affair which is a matter for each various group. Therefore this is also the case with regard to the school and the department.

You will be an agent.

The argument of the hon. member for Lichtenburg that I should be a so-called agent, is nonsense. That hon. member wants to make this Committee believe something untrue. He says that no group, no chamber will be able to impose levies with regard to its education. That is not true. That hon. member will see that next week. He should just go and read the constitutional proposals again. It is true that no tax may be levied. In this regard he is right. It is also true that no loan may be negotiated. However, it also states that a separate group may tax its population group by way of levies. And it can use those levies for its department of education, as it wishes. However, I want to leave it at that.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to mention a few matters relating to the Vista University, which in fact came into being in the time when that hon. member of Lichtenburg was still on the right road. The Vista University came into being during November 1981, with the main purpose of satisfying the requirements of university education on a contact basis for Black people in the urban areas in particular. It was based on a new concept, viz. that of taking the university—where practicable, of course—to the community where the need exists. According to statistics there will be no fewer than 71 937 Black matriculants in 1990, 28 648 of whom will be able to obtain matriculation exemption. Towards the end of the century this will increase further to 186 000 plus students, 65 000 plus of whom will be able to pass with exemption. Therefore this means that in the year 1990, provision will have to be made for a further 10 000 additional students at our Black universities. Against this background the founding of the university, with decentralized training activities for Blacks in all the large urban complexes, was a meaningful beginning. The Vista University is primarily aimed at the urban Blacks and it consists of a network of interdependent branches administered from a central base. Everyday courses and degrees are presented to satisfy about 70% of the requirements. I wish to emphasize that the Vista University does not act in opposition to other South African universities, but is in fact in partnership with them. I now wish to contend that the founding of the Vista University and the appointment of the first rector, Prof. Cas Crouse, was a triumph as far as I am concerned. Today I wish to pay tribute to the council and to Prof. Crouse and his staff for the extremely able, dedicated and dynamic start they have made with this new concept in universities. Prof. Crouse’s point of departure is praiseworthy and must be successful. I should like to quote it. He says—

And then he goes on—

And I want to congratulate him on that. What is his policy in that university? It is inter alia the following—

Secondly—

In fact, this is also valid in respect of our motivation for separate schools. Thirdly—

Now, with regard to the present state of affairs, I wish to inform the Committee that there are already four decentralized campuses, in Pretoria, Johannesburg, Bloemfontein and Port Elizabeth, with a student population of 825. There is a campus for the further training of teachers in Pretoria. The training and qualifications of teachers are being improved by means of teletuition. It is gratifying to be able to say that although estimations provided for only 1 000 students in 1983, the number of students is at present 2 064. There are further plans for additional campuses as the need arises. As far as financial aid is concerned, I should like to say this: It is of great importance that the private sector, too, should make a contribution in this regard, because they receive specific tax benefits in this respect and by their contributions they could meet a very considerable need with regard to bursaries for students, books for decentralized reference libraries, research and physical development on the campuses. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, at the outset I would like to associate this party with the remarks concerning the introduction of the new hon. Minister’s first Vote and also with the retirement of Mr. Steenekamp, who has had so many years of valuable service in this department. We wish him many extremely happy and contented years ahead. I would also like to associate this party, of course, with the appointment of Mr. Nienaber, who has many years of progress to look forward to.

The next point that I would like to refer to, is a very interesting seminar that the department conducted earlier this year. It was full of information and gave tremendous insight into the levels to which they would aspire. Of course, we understand that it is a shop window and it cannot be done overnight. However, the various facets are certainly very impressive indeed. It is interesting to note that, in the three short years that I have been taking part in this debate, we have had a new Minister on each occasion. I must admit that the second one was in fact, in his own words, a night-watchman. We do hope that the hon. the Minister in this case, with his well-known technical ability and managerial expertise, will be staying with this department to see it through some very important times. I think it is equally correct for me to raise again the subject, which I raised on each of the previous occasions, of rural education, in particular with reference to farm schools and secondary schools. The hon. the Minister has made some interesting announcements that I would like to come back to. I know that the department is certainly looking very carefully at this problem. It has its priorities which have to be seen to first. However, I believe that, if one looks at the short period of three years over which the position has really remained static, we must not only look at the overall priority list and the policy direction with which the department seeks to solve this problem of secondary education in the rural areas, but I think that we should introduce intermediate measures as well to bridge the intervening years. I would like to mention to this Committee the situation in one circuit area alone, which brings out some very interesting figures. The King William’s Town circuit has an enrolment in Sub A in farm schools of 3 656. By the time it gets to Sub B, it is reduced to 2 200. That is a fall of nearly 40%; namely of 1 456 pupils. One knows that some of the reasons for that are distance, some of them children are not ready for school and climatic conditions. The little blokes fall out along the way and they do not make it. That in itself is an aspect relating to the question of education which is a very important one, because it must slow down the whole cycle. The possibility of pre-school training comes into play. I see the report on pre-school training indicates a very low figure indeed in respect of the number of teachers that are going into pre-primary training. Then we go further to Std. 1 and it drops another 336 to 1 864 and so it goes on through the years. The alarming factor is that, by the time we get to Std. 4—this relates largely, no doubt, to the availability of those standards in farm schools—it is down to 745. It goes from 3 656 in Sub A to 745 in Std. 4. By the time they get to Std. 5, 521 are left and when we get to Std. 6—this must obviously be in relation to the availability of St. 6 in farm schools—we are down to the minute number of 59 pupils. This out of an initial 3 656. So with all the great effort that has been put into it, one is not getting the pupils out at the other end and I would say that the interim measure that I would like to see, is that maximum effort must be put in, wherever possible, to adding on standards to farm schools to turn the standard 4 and 5 situation. This does not necessarily require a great increase in the number of different teachers for different subjects or laboratory facilities or matters of that nature. I think that the junior secondary phase should be introduced in selected schools in certain areas within the community, because, unless we can get the schools in the rural communities up to Std. 8 as soon as possible, these people simply are not going to be eligible for technical training and for entering the labour field with any hope of competing at all with the urban dweller who has education at his doorstep.

If one takes the areas concerned, I would suggest centres such as Komga, Stutterheim and Cathcart, which would serve a very wide community and which, in general are surrounded by these farm schools. Then one would in fact get a far greater number of these children going forward and it would be within their reach, for example, in terms of the distances which are to be travelled, to be able to continue their education.

Mr. Chairman, I realize that this is once again a matter of funds. The hon. the Minister has mentioned the new formula for farm schools. I would just like to make quite certain that that formula is in fact still a subsidy. I understood him to say that the R5 000 per class-room is still on a subsidy basis. I would like to warn the hon. the Minister that, in the current drought situation, that that scheme is going to take a knock. There are going to be precious few “R5 000’s” around to even build one class-room. The question of farmers initially laying out that money, completing the building and then only receiving the money is, I think, another situation which he should look at closely and possibly bring about a system similar to the one where you build a ship, namely you pay a fifth when the keel is laid, a fifth when the frames are up, a fifth when it is launched, and so on, until everything is paid. Certainly, if they had access to the funds to commence the project, one could prevent the fall-off in the implementation of this new formula. However, I would like to warn the hon. the Minister seriously that, in the worst drought areas, there is going to be a fall-off in the use of this scheme—if it is on a subsidy basis—because everybody is going to be licking their wounds and trying to consolidate again. When it comes to a matter of keeping yourself going, this sort of thing is not going to enjoy the priority that it deserves.

In this respect, I would once again like to ask the hon. the Minister if his department would not see its way clear, as far as statistics are concerned, to regionalize them and bring them down even further to the various circuits. There is a wealth of information that one can take out. It is a marvellous report and it is full of detail. This department always had a great record for a very complete and thorough report. However, one cannot really get down to the circumstances in your own area. I believe it would only require another page or so where that report can be expanded in terms of the pupil attendance in each province and the work done in the various regions concerned. That would put us, in our areas, in a position of really being able to monitor things properly and to have knowledge of the circumstances right in our own areas. In some way we might then be able to assist in approaching local authorities, fanners’ associations and so on to bring about the improvements which I have suggested, particularly in relation to the secondary school situation. However, I cannot see that we can wait for the priority list, which obviously deals with the concentration of people in areas before deciding where secondary schools are going to be put up, and later boarding facilities and so build the system up over many years. As I have said, three years have already gone by and we have not really achieved anything other than the secondary school, with hostel facilities, at Fort Beaufort. I understand that there was some resistance initially, but that it is going very well now that they have got used to the idea of boarding. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, we have no quarrel with the hon. member for King William’s Town. The department and this side of the House are profoundly aware of the major problems relating to farm schools and schools in agricultural areas. The department is already carrying out a very thorough investigation in that regard.

Mr. Chairman, it has become the fashion among the hon. members of the official Opposition to deliver tirades, with tears in their eyes and a catch in their voices, but with venom in their hearts, about the gross injustice supposedly committed against the Black people, in that the expenditure per capita on the education of Black pupils is out of proportion—in fact, according to them, scandalously low—in comparison with the expenditure per capita on the education of White pupils. I wish to state emphatically that anyone who adopts such a standpoint without further ado, and without taking due account of all the factors that cause the difference in expenditure per capita on the education of the White and Black pupils, is either extremely stupid or extremely malicious, because the elements comprising the total expenditure differ so radically from one another that a comparison between the per capita expenditure is virtually unthinkable and impossible. Let us look at some of the factors causing the difference. In the first place, the various educational departments use different criteria for the calculation of the per capita figure. For example, provincial education departments for Whites include the cost involved in school health services, whereas in the case of Black pupils, health services are not taken into account at all, since the health services at Black schools are provided by the Department of Health and Welfare. Before 1980 capital expenditure, viz. the building of schools and classrooms, was also not taken into account in determining the per capita expenditure on the education of Black pupils. The fact that before 1980, health services and capital expenditure were not included in the total expenditure on Black education inevitably meant that the expenditure per capita on Black education would be far lower than the equivalent expenditure on White education.

In addition, there is a second factor which must be taken into account in explaining the difference. Approximately 80% of the budgets of education departments goes towards teachers’ salaries. In the case of Black education, approximately 80% of the teachers have lower qualifications than their White colleagues. Let us demonstrate the influence of this factor on the expenditure per capita on the basis of a simple example. Say for argument’s sake it takes one teacher to teach one child as far as both White and Black are concerned, and say for example the White teacher receives a salary of R800 per month, whereas the Black teacher receives a salary of R400 per month. This is not because he is Black, but because his qualifications are so low. If the salaries of these teachers were the only item on the basis of which the per capita expenditure was calculated, the expenditure in the case of the Whites would be R800 per capita and in the case of the Blacks only R400. Therefore hon. members will see that if we were to take the salaries of teachers as the sole criterion, it would be naïve to draw comparisons, due to the major differences in qualifications. This situation of having differences in qualifications is due to factors and problems unique to the educational system of all developing countries and peoples. In our case it is a historical heritage which we have inherited from the colonial era. But, as the qualifications of Black teachers improve—and this is the highest priority of the department—their salaries will rise tremendously, as will the unit cost per pupil.

Thirdly, apart from differences in salaries caused by lower qualifications, contributions by the education departments with regard to pensions, medical schemes and housing subsidy schemes also determine per capita cost. Black teachers enjoy the same conditions of service, but lower salaries of under-qualified teachers influence the pension contributions. Very few make use of housing subsidies. Therefore these additional items are also lower in Black education than in White education.

In the fourth place, primary education is considerably cheaper than secondary education because less sophisticated and expensive facilities and equipment, e.g. laboratories, are needed. The ratio of primary to secondary enrolments in Black education is at present 84% primary to 16% secondary. In contrast, the ratio in White education is 50:50. As the number of secondary enrolments increases, the per capita expenditure will increase, too, and the gap and the difference in expenditure between Whites and Blacks will narrow or disappear entirely. A fifth factor that gives rise to the difference is the teacher/child ratio in the classroom. The average number of children per teacher in Black education is approximately 43, whereas in White education there is a far smaller number of pupils per teacher, viz. a larger number of teachers among Whites than among non-Whites. Once again, it is not because they are Blacks, but due to circumstances, that teachers are not available. This, too, results in far greater expenditure per child on teachers’ salaries. I note that the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens is shaking his head and I want to ask him to be quiet so that he can hear what I have to say.

Apart from the unjustified complaint about the lower per capita expenditure in Black education in comparison to White education, there have also been complaints recently about the per capita low expenditure in the field of sport. I do not wish to elaborate on this at length, apart from saying that there is a tremendous shortage of school and classroom space, for which enormous sums of money are needed. In the second place, there is a tremendous shortage of trained and qualified teachers, and large sums of money have to be and are being spent on this as well. If we are to start complaining at this point about a lack of sports facilities, we must ask ourselves what our priorities are. What is of the greatest importance, and what is the greatest need? Is it sports facilities, or classroom facilities and teachers? As far as this Government and this department are concerned, I wish to state with all possible emphasis that the most important matters, namely classroom space and well-qualified teachers, are always given top priority in the expenditure of limited funds. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I could not quite make out what the hon. member for Kimberley North wanted to tell us. [Interjections.] I want to say immediately that we are all aware of the facts that cause the differences between non-White and White education. The hon. member should have gone further and told us what the situation would be if we eliminated all these factors. It is pointless the hon. member simply telling us that these differences must be taken into account, because all in all they explain nothing.

Then you tell us how.

Oh no, it was the hon. member, after all, who started this debate and it is he who owes it to this House to tell us how it is to be done. I did not interrupt the hon. member but listened to him attentively and patiently. The point is that the hon. member creates the impression that he is in fact trying to condone these differences—the real differences. That is the impression created. His final remark referred to the limited funds available and he argued that with that in mind certain other things had to be given priority above sport. That is true, of course, but in doing so he in fact laid the axe to the roots, viz. the fact that insufficient funds are being provided for Black education. I know that many of the differences he pointed to are the result of historical processes in South Africa. We know that, and no one is so stupid as to deny it. However, I want to tell him that part of that problem is the fact that for many years Black education was linked to Black taxation. I therefore want to point out to the hon. member that for many years, in terms of the Government’s policy, the amount allocated to Black education, apart from what was obtained from Black taxation, was pegged. Therefore we need not go back to the colonial period to explain these things. Actually, I am sorry that the hon. member has compelled me to begin my reply in this vein because there are other things to which I should like to refer.

In the first place, I want to say that I listened attentively to the ideological debate that went on between the hon. member for Lichtenburg and the hon. members for Gezina and Virginia. Hon. members will give me if I say to myself that as far as basic attitudes towards Blacks are concerned, I see no difference between the attitude of the hon. members on that side of the House and that of the hon. members of the CP to my left. This is so in spite of the efforts made by the hon. members of the CP to establish artificial differences. That is my problem. I listened to the hon. member for Lichtenburg and the hon. members for Virginia and Gezina trying to contradict one another. By way of these contradictions the hon. members displayed an attitude which, in all honesty, I found shocking. The question I ask myself is: “Where, then, is the reform we are always hearing about? Not once in this debate have I heard anything said about reform. However, I leave the matter at that. [Interjections.] I do not want to enter this ideological debate.

In the first instance I want to say that it was with appreciation that I took cognizance of the steps announced by the hon. the Minister with regard to education at farm schools, high schools and subsidies. In this regard I want to associate myself with the hon. member for King William’s Town, and I hope that the hon. the Minister will provide us with further explanations in this regard. I should like to hear what action the Department is going to take in these instances. Due to the drought conditions we have the situation that large numbers of Black people are being moved from farms because farmers are no longer able to employ them.

Surely that is untrue.

It is true and I am not accusing anyone. It happens, and I do not take it amiss of the farmers; can the hon. member not understand that? However, I leave the matter at that. I have read this report of the Department—it is a good one—and I want to say in passing that I appreciated the information session the Department arranged earlier this year for members of Parliament. I am sure that we all find it very illuminating and interesting. It was with great appreciation that I took cognisance of the rapid increase in the number of enrolments. I am sorry that at this point time does not permit me to go into detail. I think that special steps must be taken to increase the number of post-graduate students in particular. In the light of the demand for Black education and technological progress in our country, I think that special steps must be taken in this regard and I want to ask that the Department consider whether we cannot encourage Black students to enrol for postgraduate courses in greater numbers. I should have liked to elaborate further on bursaries and loans and I take it that these amounts will have to be increased considerably to enable more Black students to attend universities.

There was a considerable increase.

It is true that there was an increase, and I readily concede that, but I think that a very much larger increase is justified. We ought to encourage people to attend universities. Personally, I think that the increase budgets for universities still fall short of what is required. Basically there was another 10% increase, but I should have welcomed a larger increase.

I have told the Department on a number of occasions that I am grateful to hear about their activities at the pre-primary level. I am grateful, too, for the increased budget in this regard. However, if we consider the point mentioned by the hon. member for King William’s Town, viz. the enormous difference between the number of scholars enrolling for Sub A and the decline in the numbers up to Std. 2 and 3, I must say that this is a disturbing phenomenon. In fact, it means that to a considerable degree money is being wasted, because the fruits we should reap from the expenditure of funds in the substandard years are entirely lost. This happens with regard to both the people and education. I consider that the key to this problem lies at the pre-primary level to a considerable extent. I want to ask that special attention be given to the pre-primary services, to see whether they could not be considerably extended. The subsidy is R25 per child per quarter and is limited to children between the ages of five and six years. This age limit ought to be reduced, and I hope that there will be a considerable expansion in this regard.

I also took cognisance of what the hon. member for Virginia said about the Vista University. To a large extent I agree with him. I am somewhat concerned that many of the buildings on the campus of the Vista University are still temporary buildings. I appreciate what is being done at the Vista University. [Interjections.] I do not know why there is such negative reaction now when one refers to these things. The point I want to make is that I have often maintained—and I want to request the hon. the Minister to forget about ideological considerations—that it is time to establish a full-scale university complex on the Rand. The situation is that by the end of the century we shall have a permanent population of approximately 1,5 million people in the Greater Soweto Complex. Measured by any standards, inter alia that of children completing their school education, the concentration of population etc., the time has come for us to give serious consideration to a real university complex at Soweto. I see that the hon. the Minister is already shaking his head. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, thus far this debate has had various inputs, but I have to express my disappointment at the fact that we have had such a morbid discussion from the ranks of the Opposition, in particular the PFP. I do not hold it against them because they have every right to be critical about the department and the Minister. The hon. member for Cape Town Gardens started his speech on a positive note and congratulated the officials and the department, also welcoming the Minister in this capacity as Minister, but immediately thereafter he gave way to pessimism. I want to ask whether those members go about wearing ear-plugs and blinkers and do not notice anything. The problem is that they do not have a real educationist in their ranks. They may have experts in other fields, and if the hon. member for Parktown were to resort to transplanting parts of the body other than hearts—heads, for example—they would make some progress. I also want to refer to the hon. member for Lichtenburg…

Willem, will you offer yours?

If that hon. member, looking in a mirror, sees an ugly sight, it will not be the mirror’s fault.

The hon. member for Lichtenburg used to be the Minister in charge of this department and he should give us the opportunity of appreciating his work. However, he kicked up political dust clouds during this wonderful opportunity he had for debating matters. I trust that this hon. member will be given another opportunity in this debate to convey to us those fine and positive aspects of this Vote, this Minister and this department that are really deserving of appreciation. The hon. member for Lichtenburg once made a speech at a school in Soweto and referred to “our children” in this country. He agrees with me. There is a tremendous responsibility resting on the children of this country. When we are dead and buried, the younger generations, the children of this country, will have to take over the responsibilities and perform the necessary tasks in this country. We have to give them the means to do the necessary preparation. The hon. member is not an expert on this specific subject. He was a Minister and made a success of it, but I think he should now step aside and leave it to the experts. We are now discussing the problems and he must not bother us now.

Business suspended at 12h45 and resumed at14h15.

Mr. Chairman, when the morning sitting came to a close, I was engaged in a discussion with the Opposition. The hon. member Prof. Olivier expressed his concern about the problem of school-leavers between the primary and secondary levels.

The level between sub A and Std. 3.

There is a high percentage of school-leavers at these levels. I have to tell him that it was specifically in order to solve that problem—and the hon. member for Kimberley North also referred to that—which is reflected in the lack of quality education which can be offered to the child, that we made provision for the establishment of Vista University. We are already reaping the benefits of this so that these bottlenecks in the education of the Black child can be overcome.

I want to return to the hon. member for Lichtenburg, who is not here at the moment. If one looks at his speech analytically, one sees that he avoided certain aspects, one of them being that he was the Minister in charge of this specific portfolio. In his day students of colour were admitted to universities for Whites and White students were also admitted to Medunsa. He initiated this, but there were good reasons for doing so.

He did not initiate it. It is untrue to say that.

It was well-motivated in his reasoning in this House, and we could find no fault with it.

Do not talk nonsense.

Later on there will be a debate in which we shall be clearing up this matter. I just want to point out that he neatly avoided mentioning this. By presenting his case in a different way, he did not even touch on this aspect today.

[Inaudible.]

Order! I cannot allow a dialogue across the floor of this House.

As Minister he initiated certain matters which he has avoided mentioning here today.

The way the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens stated his case one would suppose this department’s task—the task of the education of Blacks—not to be a priority. This is incorrect.

Amongst other things this department has one activity I want to refer to, namely the youth movement for open-air education, in other words extra-scholastic education. I see the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens sitting there frowning at me. Perhaps this is a field that is new to him; perhaps he was not even aware of it. I want to invite him to these activities.

There are certain places to which the department takes some of its teachers, prefects and pupils to involve them in extra-scholastic activities. I want to say in advance however that the purpose is not to indoctrinate them politically or to brainwash them with some or other philosophy. I want to make it clear that the aim is to give these young people an overall orientation to life in this country. There are a few areas we can consider. The first of these involves inculcating a certain attitude in these people during their formative years, until they reach adulthood, which will successfully enable them to live and let live in this country. The first specific area to be taken into consideration is the relationship of this young person with his Maker. I think that is a good thing. I see hon. members are pointing to the hon. member for Pinelands, but I shall ignore him. There must be a correct relationship between man and his Maker, and the same applies to his relationship with himself. Man has to turn inward upon himself, discover himself and allow himself to grow and radiate outwards towards those things around him that confront him in everyday life. This is important. Self-discipline leads to respect and discipline towards others. The hon. member for Lichtenburg is now here; it was he who initiated some of these tasks.

What did he initiate?

The hon. member was not listening because he was busy with his own affairs. I consider it important that we should agree that in the process of growing up a young person should find himself in an environment where he will not develop an egotistical selfishness, but will find himself in empathy with his fellow-man. His fellow-men do not only belong to his own population group, but include the people moving around and living with him in this country. His fellow-men therefore include those belonging to other population groups.

His anchoring principles must be a love for, and appreciation of, his own culture, language and customs. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in the first instance I want to thank hon. members for their kind words to me on my appointment to my new post. I also want to express my gratitude for the kind words addressed to my department and in this regard I wish to thank the hon. member for Lichtenburg for the very handsome words he addressed to the department, his officials and to myself as well. I greatly appreciate that.

†Mr. Chairman, at the outset I want to say that it is a pity that the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens found it necessary to make, I would call it, such a shameful, unjust and derogatory remark about the department regarding the lack of progress that has been made because of the fact that there were no demonstrations. I will deal with that later and not with the remark as such. I did not misinterpret it as it was very definite. [Interjections.] During the course of my speech I will show that the progress which has been made, has been phenomenal. [Interjections.]

*During the past nine months during which I have been in charge of the portfolio of Education and Training I have been struck, firstly, by the enormous scope of the task performed by this department, and I was astonished at the real progress that has been made since the fifties. In particular I was astounded at the progress made over the past decade in the provision of education to the Black youth of the country. Therefore it is with appreciation that one takes cognizance of the fact that many people—and here I include Black and White—are aware, and we have seen this in the Press over the past few months, of the progress and the recognition necessarily accorded this work. The problems we are faced with in Black education are not of the making of the PFP, the NP or any other political party whatsoever. I note that education for Blacks is often referred to as a “system” of education, as if it is a system of education totally different to the other 18 departments of education that exist in South Africa, in spite of the fact that all 18 have the same core syllabuses and write final examinations of an identical standard. For example, the question we can ask ourselves at this point, when pre-primary education is being introduced, is whether this step is of a cosmetic nature, and whether the expansion and upgrading of teachers’ colleges and the introduction of three-year courses are also cosmetic. Does that not constitute progress? Are the establishment of technical centres, the founding of the Vista University, the provision of approximately 450 points of education for adults—specific reference has been made here to the problem of adult education—cosmetic? Do these things not constitute progress? The phenomenal progress made in respect of technical education, the development of comprehensive secondary schools and the achievement in respect of special education—does that not constitute progress, or is it cosmetic?

The third remark I want to make concerns the criteria sometimes used in the evaluation of education for Blacks, namely the circumstances in the provincial education departments. I do not think it is realistic to use this criterion; in any event, not at this stage. I want to tell you why this must not be done at this stage. There are various reasons, for example, the historical background is not the same for both population groups, the growth rate is not the same, the numbers are not the same, the manpower position is not the same, the proportions of different age groups are not the same for either the teacher or the pupils. I just want to mention that the age of approximately 50% of the teachers making up the Black teachers’ corps is under 30 years. The language and cultural background is not the same either, and even the much-discussed per capita expenditure cannot be the same at this stage, for various reasons. I want to thank the hon. member for Kimberley North for his clear exposition of why the capital expenditure cannot be the same. There are phenomena of development that can only be eliminated by time, and not even by an ample amount of capital; for example, the provision of well-trained manpower. This cannot be eliminated by way of capital alone. There is only one realistic, scientific and responsible criterion and that is the progress made and the rate at which it is being made and the objectives we are striving towards by way of this progress. If one is seeking criteria to…

When did you write that speech?

About a month ago. If one is seeking criteria whereby to measure the progress of education for the Blacks it will be far more realistic to evaluate the task and achievements of the Department of Education and Training in the context of developing countries. It is generally recognized that the Republic of South Africa is a developing country. There is evidence of this. This is even more true of education for Blacks, with its short history of development, in contrast to White education, which has developed over the centuries in Europe and undergone innumerable processes of refinement. In contrast, education for the Black man is at an early stage of development. Accordingly the same problems and challenges are being experienced in the Republic of South Africa as are being experienced in other developing countries. I should like to refer you to a work by Philip Coombs, the representative of the International Institute of Educational Planning of Unesco, who, in his work The World Educational Crisis: A Systems Analysis mentions four factors each of which has its origin in the overwhelming forces of change of our time and which together underlie the educational crisis, if we can call it an educational crisis, in innumerable developing countries.

†The first factor he refers to in his work is the student flood. There has been an inexorable and almost overpowering rising demand for more education of every sort and at every level. The flood of aspiring students released by an explosion of human expectations and enlarged by a population explosion has inundated every educational system. This has caused staggering problems of rescue and logistics and has adversely affected quality and efficiency. The flood of numbers will not subside. On the contrary, it promises in many places to keep rising, perhaps even faster than presently for a long, long time to come. The second point he made was acute resource scarcities. To cope with the flood of students the resources devoted to education have multiplied in an unprecedented manner over the past decade. In the case of this department the budget has increased by 1 600% since 1972-’73. Yet, in most developing countries the supply of teachers, buildings, equipment and scholarships and the money required for these has lagged behind the rising educational need, thereby imposing severe restraints upon the ability of education departments to respond satisfactorily to the demand. The third point he made, was the rising costs. Increasingly stringent resource limitations will add even more to the problems of education departments because of the effects of inflation on the education budget and the inexorable upward trend of the real cost per pupil. I will come back to this point later in my speech when I refer to a remark made by the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens. The last point Coombs made was about the unsuitability of output. The outputs of many developing educational systems are often ill-fitted. It is ill-fitted on the one hand to the rapidly changing needs of national development and to the changing needs of individuals in changing societies. On the other hand the attitudes, job preferences and status patterns given to students by their environment are often not in harmony with the authentic development process bent towards social change and economic modernization. The challenge is to create harmony between on the one hand all attitudes, employment arrangements, new aspirations and real needs of development and, on the other hand, education itself.

*Against this background we must understand the Government’s undertaking in respect of education as expressed by the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister said—

The hon. member for Lichtenburg agrees with this. The Prime Minister went on—

I think you will agree with me that we cannot speak about the education of Blacks unless we first put the realities of the situation into perspective. There are certain data, certain parameters, certain phenomena and certain facts which neither you nor I can account for, but which simply exist. They are data which we cannot escape by way of wishful thinking, nor can we ignore them. To begin with, for example, there are the historical realities surrounding education, which have often been put in perspective in this House in recent years; the hon. member for Lichtenburg, too, did so in his latest speech in this regard in this House. I do not want to repeat this, except to point out that education for the masses, as far as Blacks in this country are concerned, only took shape after 1950. The hon. members are aware of the phenomenal growth in both numbers of pupils and students and in the diversity of institutions and fields of study established since the ’fifties. A fact that is not always seen in perspective is that the sudden increase in demand for education is a worldwide post-war phenomenon in both the developed and the undeveloped countries. However, it is particularly in the latter that this has been the case. Therefore, when comparisons are drawn between the educational structures of various population groups it must be borne in mind that as far as the Black population is concerned we are only dealing with a worldwide post-war phenomenon. Comparisons must take these historical data into account if they are to be at all valid.

However, there are other phenomena that coincide with the increased demand for education. I wish to touch on them briefly because they are relevant to this department. I refer to the post-war population explosion, particularly in developing countries, where the trend is continuing. It is no secret that educational systems have been caught offside. It is particularly the question of the availability of manpower, and also the complicating effect of the resultant phenomena in the economic, cultural, political, demographic and social spheres, that make post-war education an extremely complex undertaking worldwide.

†“Education and keeping that nation’s educational system in step with the times seems to be many times harder than putting a man on the moon.” That is what Coombs had to say about this matter. Fortunately a local post-war event coincided with those just mentioned: The coming into power of the National Party. This event had a twofold consequence relating to education: (a) the State assuming its long overdue duty towards education for Blacks and (b) the NP serving as the scapegoat for worldwide post-war phenomena in regard to education.

*The demographic position is as follows. When the central Government accepted responsibility for education for Blacks in 1954, there were fewer than a million pupils at school. The total enrolment in the RSA and independent and national States has increased to approximately 6 million this year. The number of departments responsible for this education has at the same time grown from one to eleven. This enormous explosion in numbers has inevitably meant that teachers have had to be trained at a terrific rate and that there is still a shortage of well-qualified teachers. The statistics on the qualifications of teachers are available to all. This has also meant that more than half of the total number of Black teachers are younger than 30 years. Initially the emphasis was on primary education, with the aim of eliminating illiteracy as soon as possible. This objective was achieved in the sixties, and the emphasis shifted to secondary and tertiary education. The growth rate at the primary level has stabilized between 2% and 3%. At the secondary level, however, it is more than 14%. This shift in emphasis has created several new challenges and entails various implications with regard to, for example, in-service training, re-training and further training of a relatively youthful teachers’ corps and the cultivation of managerial skills to enable them to accept greater responsibility and offer more effective education.

As teachers’ qualities improve and the secondary enrolments increase, the per capita expenditure will also increase. Reference has been made here to the various budget items: The amount for primary education is R201 million, for secondary education R122 million and for tertiary education, R112 million. It is now being said that we have not provided sufficient funds for tertiary education, but I just want to draw the attention of the hon. Committee to the fact that this amount of R112 million for tertiary education must be increased by R16 million. The reason for this is that at present, Medunsa’s total financing costs for capital works are at present being financed by way of a loan which has not been included in this budget. In other words, the allocation for tertiary education must be increased from R112 million by another R16 million.

To be able to deal with the demands and challenges that arise due to the demographic factors, the department has formulated specific objectives. For example, in contrast to the practice in several other developing countries, no restrictions are imposed on the flow of pupils to secondary education. This fact, viz. that there is no restriction on the flow of pupils to secondary education, is an extremely important one in evaluating matriculation results. The result is that secondary education is expanding tremendously, and the total number of Black matriculants has grown from 11 000 in 1977 to more than 62 000 in 1982. This is because there have been no restrictions on the flow. Therefore a far wider cross-section of the Black school population progresses to the senior secondary level than was the case in the past.

Against the background of the population explosion the most important challenge and objective is surely the improvement of the quality of education. Once again, this must be seen against the background of a developing system of education. The status of the teachers’ colleges has been increased by way of appropriate new staff structures. Only three-year post-matriculation courses have been presented since 1982, and consideration is already being given to the introduction of a four-year post-matric course. Now, in 1982, more than half a million lower primary pupils have been involved in an upgrading programme, including school readiness, remedial education, occupational training and school organization. These are examples of progress and they are also examples to show that the department is already giving intensive consideration to the majority of the recommendations of the De Lange Report, and that many of them have already been implemented. This, too, you will be able to infer from the above. At present this programme is also being extended to farm schools. The relatively new programme of pre-primary education, and the programme for compulsory education, which already involves more than 100 000 pupils, also directly contribute towards an improvement in the quality of the education that is offered.

†In virtually all the developing countries, whatever their policy of admission at the secondary and higher levels, drop-outs are enormous at the primary stage and have been a widespread cause for concern. This is a point that was raised by the hon. Prof. Olivier. However, there are clear indications that the drop-out rate is decreasing steadily. By 1975 only 34% of the original Sub A pupils had reached Std. 5. In 1982 this figure for all Black pupils in the RSA had risen to 47%. I think it is a remarkable increase. In 1981 more than 83% of the Std. 5 pupils proceeded to Std. 6 as opposed to 67% in 1980. This is also a remarkable improvement. It is estimated that approximately 80% of the potential school population is already at school. The potential school population is defined as the group between the ages of six and sixteen years. In spite of this the pupil/teacher and pupil/classroom ratios are decreasing steadily form year to year. I will give the statistics on that as to what improvement has been made since 1975.

A further aim of the department is to provide for the full spectrum of educational and related needs from pre-primary education to university education. In this respect I make bold to state that in many instances the Department of Education and Training anticipated the De Lange Report’s recommendations with regard to, for example, non-formal and vocational-directed education. Already in 1975 the department embarked on a programme of technical orientation which is unique in South Africa as well as on a programme of adult education. The latter is being extended to include more practical courses that will greatly benefit the adult in his everyday life and in his work situation. The educational spectrum also provides for differentiation. In addition to the rapidly growing number of technical colleges, which also offer intensive commercial courses, 12 secondary schools have already been converted into comprehensive schools offering academic, technical and commercial directions of study. More and more schools also offer practical subjects of a formative nature. The establishment of the pre-primary education, technikon education, a medical university and Vista University to bring tertiary education to the doorstep of the urban Black could be described as mileposts in the development of education in this country. Continuous attention is also given to related matters such as the provision of sports facilities from primary level up to the university level. School health services, youth activities, cultural activities and informal and formal guidance are receiving attention. A guidance newsletter, The Student, is sent monthly to more than 260 000 secondary school pupils.

*Let me now put the economic facet of the department’s activities in perspective. There are people who believe that “nothing is wrong with education that money will not fix”. As repeatedly mentioned in previous debates, per capita expenditure is a very misleading indication of the situation in education. I think the hon. member for Kimberley North indicated this very clearly when he dealt with this aspect of per capita expenditure. There are various good reasons why the per capita expenditure on Black education cannot, at this stage, be the same as the expenditure on an established provincial education department, for example.

†There are in fact important constraints besides money which can limit the speed at which an educational system can expand, change and improve. Sometimes these prove even more unyielding than the money factor. This said, however, we are still left with the fact that money is an absolutely crucial input of an educational system.

*I just wish to tell hon. members very briefly about a few of the challenges faced by my department as regards the financing of education. The enormous population explosion and the accommodation shortages have already been mentioned. This applies in particular to the secondary level. The phenomenal progress made in the construction of classrooms and the upgrading of existing buildings has already been mentioned. The department is following a policy of maximum utilization of all its buildings. Examples of this are the following: Adult education is being offered after hours in existing school buildings. 450 institutions are already being used for this. The use of schools for study purposes, particularly in regard to secondary schools, multiple utilization of workshops for various technical courses and the position in respect of teaching staff are further examples. Teachers constitute the most expensive single item in this economic setup. Like other departments of education in developing countries, the department finds itself in a poor competitive position and is losing some of its trained teaching staff to the industries, which simply buy these people. In addition, education competes with itself for staff, for example primary as against secondary as against tertiary. It is also a case of teachers as against classrooms. Are teachers to be trained, or are classrooms to be built? Is formal or non-formal education to be offered?

Reference has been made to the budget, and I might just mention to you that I have the figures here and we can look at them later, but perhaps I could just briefly mention a very important point. When we consider the progress made in respect of the budget for education, it is very clearly spelt out to us that Black education is one of the Government’s priority items. In 1980-’81 the budget of the Department of Education grew by 34%, against a growth of 16,4% in the total Government budget. In 1981-’82 the figure was 51,4%, as against the growth of 17% in the total Government budget. In 1982-’83 it was 28,7% as against a growth of 14,9% in the total Government budget, and in 1983-’84 it was 17,9% as against the growth of 15,5% of the Government budget. However, if we add to this the loan of R16 which was granted to Medunsa and which does not appear in the budget, the growth this year was 21,34% in comparison to the previous year. Therefore this is a real indication that this Department of Education and Training still enjoys a high priority in the State’s budgeting programme, but that it probably does not enjoy top priority.

Education is what the economists call “a rising cost industry”. As a labour-intensive undertaking, education is extremely sensitive to inflation, because higher productivity does not follow investment to the same extent as in the case of capital-intensive enterprizes. I heard from one of my colleagues today that 80% of our costs go on wages and salaries for teachers and on administration. For the reasons mentioned, the department therefore aims to increase productivity and efficiency with the manpower at its disposal. Examples of this are—and other speakers have already referred to this—managerial courses for principals. These courses are not presented for political purposes, but for educational purposes. I content that people who imply that this is being done for political purposes are being false and malicious…

I welcomed that.

Yes, I know, but somebody inferred by an interjection that this would be for political purposes.

*We would do better to drop that argument. Managerial courses for principals, department heads and inspectorates, in-service training for teachers, priority given to courses with economic and career possibilities, emphasis on technical education, commercial courses in comprehensive schools and the expansion of career guidance to pupils are regularly offered. Adult education—I shall come back to this later—and decentralization are also among the department’s activities. We are engaged in a programme of decentralization which is almost complete. The only basic problems are still manpower and funds. Moreover, we have a programme for the computerization of some of our activities in order to increase our productivity. Backlogs have already been eliminated as regards providing schools with furniture, textbooks and apparatus. I want to emphasize this: There are no backlogs as regards the provision of furniture, textbooks and apparatus in schools. It has even been possible to make a breakthrough with regard to the provision of home-language reading books to pupils from Sub A to Std. 2. This breakthrough will not only stimulate reading and establish the reading habit, but will also form the basis for good reading habits in the official languages. Every pupil in substandard A to Std. 2 can now read at least 10 new books in his own language every year. As far as I am concerned, this is a phenomenal breakthrough in promoting school readiness among these people and reducing as far as possible the phenomenon of school-leaving, to which the hon. member Prof. Olivier referred.

Provision is being made, as far as possible, for the extra-curricular needs of the pupils. I refer to the services offered by the department with regard to youth activities, educational tours and sport. I think that as far as sport is concerned, it is as well that this Committee should take cognisance of the fact that for the first time this year a full intervarsity was held at the Medunsa University, and that this intervarsity passed off without significant incident. I can add that we had a regional school sports meeting in the Cape region in Port Elizabeth which passed off without incident, except for a minor disturbance that evening at the hostel where they slept. 28 000 people were present at that sports meeting in Port Elizabeth.

†In regard to sport at schools, I should like to react to the so-called half cent scandal reported in the Press of 8 May 1983. It is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. The R14 700 is an amount budgeted for by the subject adviser for sport at head office to promote school sport through in service training to teachers. This amount does not even include the salaries of these advisers, let alone capital cost. Also my Department does not have an enrolment of 3,1 million pupils yet. The enrolment is 1,6 million which amounts to 7 cents per pupil for this type of promotion activity only. This amount also does not include the appreciable amounts spent on school sports and coaching by the Administration Boards, the private sector and sporting foundations. My Department has spent R577 000 on sports fields at colleges of education alone. Adequate sports facilities at schools is a matter of high priority and it is receiving the attention of the Minister of Education and Training at the moment. I may add that my Department has been sharing sports facilities with other bodies for many years and it has become an established practice for schools to share facilities amongst themselves. Bearing in mind the hearty co-operation that my Department is receiving from many bodies such as Administration Boards and the private sector, I should like to place on record my sincere appreciation for such co-operation. I wish to add that this spirit of co-operation is not experienced only in the field of recreation and sport. It is experienced in virtually all the activities of the Department, not only by way of sizeable contributions to the technical colleges, libraries and the supply of classrooms, laboratories and the electrification of schools etc., but also in the form of expertise. I can assure hon. members that contributions in terms of money, expertise and goodwill are truly amazing.

*Mr. Chairman, the final point to which I want to refer, is that education and training are the means whereby the unique cultural possessions of a particular group are conveyed to its children. By way of education and training, however, the child must also be orientated in respect of the broad social context and universal issues. The Western oriented idea of science on which the educational system is based sets formidable demands with regard to specific life experiences. Therefore in certain respects the Black child has a leeway to make up. Particular emphasis has for some time been placed on supplementary or compensatory education to counteract the effect of this limited milieu. Because a good grounding in the home language is essential for crossing over successfully to an alien teaching medium from the fifth year of school, on-going attention is being given to the establishment and further development of Black languages. The educational programme developed for the pre-primary level serves as a bridging year, as recommended by the HSRC Report. The Black parent and the community are directly involved in the planning and control of education at a local level. I say this in reply to comments by the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens. Special attention is being given to the formative youth activities such as educational tours. Finally, I want to refer to technology. A department with activities of the scope of those of the Department of Education and Training must take cognisance of and make use of the benefits offered by modern technology. This applies not only in respect of the streamlining of administration, but particularly to the improvement of the quality of education and the improved preparation of pupils, in so far as this is possible. Various video and computer programmes have already been designed and made available in co-operation with the private sector. There is no doubt that both pupil and teacher will benefit by the use of these programmes.

Mr. Chairman, I hope you will permit me just to make a few brief remarks about some of the points made by the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens. That hon. member made an interesting statement, viz. that we must involve the Black man more actively in the planning of Black education as such. I can inform the hon. member that we have already discussed this matter with the Advisory Board, and in principle it is acceptable that the Black man must be involved to a far greater extent in the planning of his own education affairs. However, the hon. member immediately went on to say that he was pleased that there was a possibility that more White teachers could be involved in Black education. These two arguments were contradictory. I can only inform him that we have several White teachers in Black schools. For example, within the RSA we have 799 teachers working in Black schools, whereas 578 White teachers are working in the national States. In total we have 1 076 White teachers working in Black schools in independent States and national States. Therefore it was unnecessary for that hon. member to make that statement, because the problem is sorting itself out.

There are lots of qualified White teachers who are not working as teachers at all.

That may be true, but we have no policy to keep White teachers who are qualified to teach at Black schools from doing that.

As far as adult education is concerned, the hon. member mentioned that the budget for adult education is lower than last year. I admit that this is so but I want to say to the hon. member that when this was introduced originally there was a very large demand for adult education as such and this demand is tailing off at the moment. Therefore we are consolidating at the moment and the reason is not that adult education does not receive a high priority. The reason is rather one of consolidation and the fact and reality that the demand for Black education is levelling off.

*I can only say to the hon. member that at present, in adult education alone, 4 500 teachers are achieving better qualifications. I can also mention to the hon. member that this year, more than 100 000 matriculants have enrolled for a matriculation subject in the matriculation examination, and this is an indication of the absolute success of our adult education programme, although I want to be honest when I say that not all these matriculants have linked up with our programme; they have also linked up with programmes presented by correspondence colleges.

†I think I have handled the matter of the bad news budget…

Mr. Chairman, may I get absolute clarity? I accept that the hon. the Minister has put a priority on adult education but there are also institutions which offer adult education and get subsidies. Do you envisage paying that subsidy as long as the demand is there?

Yes. There is very close co-operation between the Department and these people in the private sector who want to introduce and who are doing such programmes. We have the closest co-operation. In this regard I briefly want to refer to Mrs. Cynthia Hugo and her read programme which is welcomed every day. I am also referring to The Star who has also adopted a school project. There are many similar projects which we welcome.

*Mr. Chairman, I think I must now resume my seat for the time being so that the other hon. members can have a chance, and then I shall come back to aspects raised by other hon. members.

Mr. Chairman, just before the hon. the Minister resumes his seat, may I ask him whether he can furnish more details about the foreign loan of R14 million for Medunsa, to which he referred in his speech?

Mr. Chairman, this is a loan negotiated in consultation with an overseas body to meet the capital requirements of Medunsa. In fact, the amount is R12 million, of which R14 million will be spent this year. The R2 million is being allocated to the following year. This amount is being allocated exclusively towards capital-intensive facilities.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister has made two major speeches here this afternoon and we in these benches have listened to him with great interest. This portfolio is a new one for him and we are obviously interested to hear how he is handling it. It is also, as far as we are concerned, a most important portfolio and he can therefore be assured of our continued interest. We are pleased to hear that the hon. the Minister also regards this portfolio as one of vital importance. He does not underestimate the magnitude of the problems that confront him and he does not see himself as simply being a caretaker. I believe he sees himself as someone who has a major job of work ahead of him waiting to be done. For these reasons I believe we can look forward to a period of growth under the hon. the Minister’s administration.

I want to deal with the important topic of education for rural Black children in the time allotted to me. Just how many of the 3 million primary school Black children currently at school in South Africa receive their education in rural areas is difficult to determine. However, I would imagine it would be approximately one-third of this number and this makes it something like 1 million children who are dependent upon rural education. We know that on White farms alone there are 4 999 schools for Blacks compared with the 1 500 in the municipal areas within the common area of South Africa. If one looks at these figures it would appear as if the White farmers are certainly making a major contribution towards the education of Blacks. I will come back to this point later in my speech.

Mr. Chairman, I came to this debate this afternoon prepared to be highly critical of the hon. the Minister but after having listened to what he had to say to us in his speech I find that he has, in fact, pre-empted a great deal of the criticism which I have for his Department. During this debate last year I pointed out to his predecessor the adverse educational climate in which rural children found themselves and I was prepared to address the hon. the Minister on the same problem because, as far as we had been able to determine, nothing has yet been done about it. However, in the hon. the Minister’s speech we find that one of the major problems is receiving his attention, and that the Black child from a farm is no longer going to be discriminated against when he goes to town to seek a place at a secondary school. Up till now it has always been an enormous problem for farm children to be accepted or to find a place for themselves at a school in town. It has been the policy of his Department to give precedence to children from town at the secondary schools. It is only if there is a place open after the town children had been awarded places, that the farm child is allowed in. This has been a major hindrance to the farm child.

It is still like that.

Did I hear the hon. the Minister say it is still like that?

Yes.

Then I must have misunderstood the hon. the Minister’s speech.

That was an announcement which clarified the policy ahead. That will remain for a long time.

I must confess that I am bitterly disappointed to hear that because as far as I am concerned the Black child from the rural areas has as much right to an education at a secondary school as has his counterpart in town. What is happening is that the farm child now has to go to town and lie about his origin if he is to find a place at all in the school in town. This is a highly undesirable state of affairs. I would appeal to the hon. the Minister to change the Department’s attitude in this regard and to give the farm child an equal status to that of the town child. After all, in White education the child from a farm does not find himself under a similar handicap when he comes to town for his education. This is a great source of bitterness and resentment amongst the Blacks in the rural areas. I see the hon. the Minister nodding his head so I hope he takes cognisance of that particular point.

The second point—and here I am certain I did not misunderstand the hon. the Minister—concerns the provision of hostel facilities for Blacks at secondary schools and perhaps even primary schools. Again the rural child finds himself at a great disadvantage. If he is lucky enough to find a place for himself at a school in town he is then confronted with the problem of finding hostel accommodation. There are few, if any, hostels available for Blacks in town. I have figures here which indicate that in the entire Republic of South Africa there is only one hostel in Johannesburg for primary school children and none anywhere else except for two in KwaZulu. For secondary pupils there are only 12 hostels in total of which eight are in Natal and four in the Transvaal. There are none in the Cape and none in the Ciskei. Unless a farm child can therefore find a friend or relative in town to accommodate him, he just cannot go to school. It is time that the Department addressed itself to this problem.

I further wish to refer the hon. the Minister to the figures pertaining to primary and secondary school children in the country. There are something like 250 000 primary school children and only 44 000 secondary school children. This seems to indicate that there is a tremendous high drop out rate between primary school and secondary school. I would submit that to a large extent this difficulty which children have in finding accommodation at secondary schools plays an important role. If somehow an answer could be found through the provision of adequate facilities, a great deal would be done towards solving that particular problem.

In conclusion I would like to refer to one other problem which I do not have an answer for but I believe it is a problem that we should address ourselves to. That concerns the problem of farm children who are denied education because of the system which makes them reliant on the goodwill of farmers to provide schools. If the farmers do not have that goodwill and do not allow schools to be opened on their farms then some children have to walk up to 40 kilometres per day in order to attend school. Whereas this is the exception rather that the rule these cases do exist. I think it is time the hon. the Minister and his Department look at these cases in an attempt to find some solution to this problem. It is surely an unacceptable state of affairs if children have to start walking early in the morning, before sunup and come home after sunset simply because farmers do not want to provide that facility. In closing I would like to pay tribute to farmers who have supplied facilities because without them the education of Black children in the rural areas under the present system would be an impossibility. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I really have no quarrel with what the hon. member for Albany had to say. On the contrary, I think he made a positive contribution. I am also prepared to associate myself with the representations he made on behalf of children on farms. [Interjections.] It is a pity, however, that his colleague over there does not want to keep quiet for a moment, but I know it is beyond him to keep quiet when one is discussing the education of children.

It is always a great pleasure for me to participate in the discussion on the Education and Training Vote. It is a pleasure because it is such a dynamic Department, which is involved in the educating, training, preparing and qualifying people so that one day they can also have a niche in society and a place to work. I say it is a dynamic Department, because when one reads through this annual report—or tries to read through it—one comes to realize the enormous amount of work done by this Department. As a representative of a rural constituency I have quite a bit to do with farm schools and, Mr. Chairman, possibly you will allow me to say a bit more about this.

In the first place I want to thank the hon. the Minister and the Department for the announcement in connection with concessions on subsidies for farm school buildings. This was as announced as far back as last year, and I understand that during the past financial year there has been an increase of no less than 76 farm schools. We also greatly appreciate today’s announcement in connection with the provision of water and housing for teachers. We can never overemphasize the importance of farm schools, because we are living in a time of urbanization, and urbanization goes hand in hand with quite a number of problems. I am thinking, for example, of housing and job opportunities, which must be created for people who become urbanized. It is true that urbanization is a worldwide phenomenon and that there are various reasons for this. One of the reasons in South Africa is a shortage of school facilities in the rural areas and on the farms. It is a fact that every parent endeavours to get the best schooling for his child. Secondary schools in the towns and cities are full to overflowing and those schools also give preference to the children of the residents of those towns and cities. We have just heard—and I can also confirm this—that there are no hostel facilities for children from the rural areas. We are very grateful to the hon. the Minister for announcing this afternoon that hostels are to be erected in certain places. Because the parents from rural areas cannot get their children into secondary schools in town, they move to an urban area and in this way becomes part of the urbanization process. In order to help to counter urbanization, it is essential for our farm schools to function as efficiently as possible, and I should like to refer to a few matters which I feel have a negative effect on our farm schools and in regard to which the effectiveness of those schools can be improved.

The first point I want to refer to is the provision of staff. Nowadays it is not easy for farm schools—at the moment there are 1 057 of them—to obtain qualified staff because the teachers prefer to teach in the towns or cities. One can understand that because then they are near the business centres, churches and places of entertainment. Many teachers, when they have completed their studies, do not have transport and it is really a sacrifice for them to go teaching on these remote farms. It is, however, just as essential for those farm schools to have a well-qualified and competent teacher because a one-man school frequently only has one classroom, and children from Std. I to Std. III have to be taught at one and the same time. That is why I want to ask the hon. the Minister again—as I have done in the past—whether we cannot work out a formula to pay a special bonus to those teachers to get them to teach in the rural schools. I realize there are problems in this connection and that it will cost more money, but I still think we could reap the benefits if we were do this.

Another point I want to raise involves the provision of textbooks at farm schools. Without wanting to criticize unnecessarily, I want to point out that it seems as if in some regions there is an unnecessary delay in getting the books delivered on time. It is really irritating for a school when, by the second or third term, it still does not have the necessary textbook for the children. I want to refer to another point in connection with libraries. It is gratifying to note that during the past financial year provision was made for almost R100 000 for school libraries. However, I now ask myself whether the farm schools get their rightful share of this amount. It is, after all, essential for farm schools to have their own libraries too, no matter how small, so that those children can also have the opportunity to read. I think that we, as Whites living near those schools, can also assist them by sending them old magazines—both English and Afrikaans—which we sometimes have lying around our homes, magazines that they can then use in their libraries. It is essential to make as much reading matter as possible available to these schools.

In conclusion I want to say that the environment plays a very important role in the formative years of a child. Man is not, however, only a product of his environment. His schooling during those formative years plays an equally important role, and for that reason it is essential for him to receive the best possible education during his first years at school. We are therefore grateful for what is being done by the authorities for the farm schools, and if we could give attention to the few matters I have referred to, I feel that we would improve the quality of the farm schools further and that we would be able to reap the benefits of this.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Winburg devoted the greater part of his speech to farm schools, a subject of which he quite clearly knows a great deal. I believe he dealt with it in a most sympathetic and honest manner. If I were the Minister today, I would certainly have listened to him, and have done wat he said. His speech followed that by the hon. member for Albany who touched upon the same subject.

The hon. member spoke about the formative years, the first years at school, and how important they were.

†I want to follow upon that argument and speak today about malnutrition and its effects on education. Perhaps, in so doing, I will be able to suggest some measures to improve education. Many people today speak about the high drop-out rate amongst our Black school children. I would suggest that a lot of that is due to malnutrition. 2,9 million children under the age of 15 in South Africa and the independent homelands suffer from malnutrition. This was established during a study in 1980. This is not a figure arrived at by the liberal press or the liberal universities, but by the Department of Health and Welfare. From other statistics it is easy to deduce that most of these children are pupils or future pupils of this hon. Minister’s schools. An even more startling statistic is that one-third of all Black children going to school show some signs of malnutrition.

It is not my intention to discuss the medical details of malnutrition today—this is not the proper Vote for that—but rather to plead that primary school children should receive the maximum benefit from education offered, with particular reference to nutrition and school feeding schemes. The earlier the child is affected by malnutrition, the more severe the results. It has been established by research workers that malnutrition during pregnancy and early childhoold will result in a reducation in the number of brain cells.

A good description of the malnourished child is given by Eckholm and Rekord, as follows—

What is the result of this malnutrition? We must look at some research done in our country. Firstly, children with a history of PEM—protein energy malnutrition—have a failure rate twice as high as a control group amongst their school equals. The failure rate is twice as high, Sir. Secondly, other research shows that among affected children the younger the pupil, the greater the learning difficulties. Therefore, it is at the preprimary and early primary leven that this is of importance. Thirdly, of pupils showing growth retardation, 90% can be classified as slow learners. Is it then surprising that we have such a high drop-out amongst Black children in the early grades?

Many statistics have been mentioned, and I want to mention just one more. 1981 statistics show that approximately 18% of all Black children in our schools left at the end of Sub A. This high drop-out rate, this lack of education, is just another link in the vicious cycle amongst too many of our fellow countrymen. Malnutrition results in slow learners, poor education, inadequate food production and poverty, and this in turn leads to more malnutrition. The whole chain then continues. For our survival, Sir, this cycle must be destroyed, and what better place to start than in that hon. Minister’s Black primary schools.

No increase in the number of schools, class-rooms and teachers can succeed if one-third of the children in those schools are malnourished. School books must be studied by nourished pupils to have the maximum benefit.

When I was at school, there was special feeding for special children during the lunch breaks. Some children were given soup in winter, and cheese and raisins in summer. I envied them, especially the hot soup, but only later in my life did I understand what was meant then by “hulpbehoewende kinders”. There are already a lot of school feeding schemes in existence, which are provided by different organizations. I think that we are all greatful for this, but, Sir, I think a national effort is necessary, led by that hon. Minister and his department. This need has always been there, but due to the severe drought it is even more urgent than ever before. Reports of increasing hospital admissions of children with kwashiorkor, as well as other evidence of increasing malnutrition, especially in the rural areas, must be taken seriously. Not only is this, I believe, a health hazard, but it is also an educational hazard. We cannot deny that.

Cannot the food surpluses that we so often have in South Africa be channelled this way? This will not only be an advantage to education, but will also help our farmers.

Sir, it is obvious that such a school feeding scheme will need a teriffic amount of organization and a tremendous amount of financial assistance, but I think the benefits for the future of South Africa far outweigh all these problems. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister and his Department to think very carefully about this.

Sir, I hope the hon. the Minister will give very serious consideration to what I am saying here today. Private organizations have already been involved in this field—the hon. the Minister referred to them. One thinks here of the Teach Fund of The Argus, the Learn Fund, and so on. I do not think that if we tackle this problem nationally, it should be simply the problem of this Minister and his Department. I think it is also a problem for the private sector, because the benefit will not only be a national benefit for South Africa; it will also be a benefit for the farmer, his labourers, the educationalists, the industrialists and everybody in South Africa. I believe, therefore that the private sector should be involved here, just as the Teach Fund and the Learn Fund were involved, when they developed facilities for better education for the Blacks. It is a waste of money to educate a group of people when one-third of them cannot enjoy the benefit of what they are learning due to malnutrition.

I would like to conclude by telling the hon. the Minister that if we work on the same figures as those of the Department of Health and Welfare for malnutrition in 1981, by the year 2000 approximately 4 million Black children under the age of 15 will have malnutrition. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I take pleasure in following up on what was said by the hon. member who has just resumed his seat. He spoke about malnutrition. I think one should distinguish this from undernourishment. I want to put it to him that I believe that malnutrition is a problem of education. People should be taught to eat correctly. The mere fact that one has sufficient food to eat, does not mean that one eats correctly. The hon. member referred to “malnutrition”. I interpret that as “wanvoeding”, and I agree with him about that, but I also think that the solution lies in training people to eat correctly.

It is now rather late to do this, but I nevertheless would like to say to the hon. the Minister at this stage: Congratulations on your appointment, Mr. Minister, and everything of the best for the future. The hon. the Minister hails from Pretoria, as do many of us sitting here, and we also want to congratulate him on the result in Waterkloof. I repeat what the hon. member for Gezina said, because I feel I really want to say it: Everything of the best for the future.

Considering the speeches we have had to listen to, I want to refer in particular to what the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens said. I have the hon. member’s unrevised Hansard here, in which he said the following—

†Sir, what would be the corollary of this? What he really means to say, in different words, is this, because it boils down to the same thing: Things are sliding; now is the time for you to have riots and now is the time to start school boycotts. [Interjections.] That is what he said, Sir, by necessary implication, and there is no way he can get away from it. There is no point in those members shouting. They must take their medicine. I would like to ask the hon. member a question: What communist propagandist could say something like this, more calculated to hurt South Africa?

Judge Cillié, on the Soweto riots.

I would say that is very simplistic thinking, because he singles out one reason only, and that is riots, that there should be riots.

You know that is not true.

I know that what I am saying is true. Does the hon. Chief Whip agree with the hon. member for Gardens?

I agree entirely with what he says.

He agrees entirely, Sir. That makes it even more patently clear that on that side, in the Progressive Federal Party, there are members who are prepared to say things which any Red propagandist would be too pleased to say.

No; you do not understand English properly.

If that hon. member could make a speech in Afrikaans, he would also understand what I am saying, but I do not think he can.

Sir, I feel the hon. member for Albany made a good speech in a certain sense, and I do want to congratulate him. He said he believed that under this Minister there would be very significant improvements and that the prospects were good. I want to thank the hon. member for his good speech and for the fine sentiments he expressed in this connection.

Sir, I should now like to come to the subject of my speech and discuss the pre-primary training of Black children. I feel this links up fairly well with the speech of the hon. member for Parktown who resumed his seat a while ago. In this connection I want to refer to the department’s report. It is a monumental and greatly appreciated report which is very up to date, and I want to congratulate them on it. On page 7 of the report, under the heading “Diversification”, there is something I find very interesting and very important, because the department says there that it places a very high priority on the diversification of training and education, to enable every individual pupil to fully utilize and develop his particular aptitudes and interests. They then go on to say that the pre-primary education programme for five-year-olds was introduced during 1982. The aim of this programme is to unlock reality for the child at an extremely critical stage in his development. Sir, is this not very true? Is it not very true that at the age of five or six the child is at his most receptive and is at a very important and critical stage of his development? In order to unlock reality for these children and to make them competitive in our Western civilization, the department has worked out an interesting curriculum for these school-going children. What it amounts to briefly is that they will receive Bible instruction, that they will participate in creative activities such as painting and playing with building blocks, that they will be given the opportunity to move around and play, that they will also be given the opportunity to develop their aesthetic sense. There will also be language development. In that way they can develop their language ability, their ability to speak.

When we get to this—and I have little time—I want to refer briefly to the extent of the pre-primary educational task of the department. To ascertain this, one must look at the statistics. At the moment there are 1,627 million school-going Black children, whereas there are approximately 0,9 million White children of school-going age. This gives us a ratio of 2:1. When we consider the numbers and the urbanization of Blacks, one can say that by the year 1990 approximately 9 or 10 million Blacks will be urbanized, as against 4 or 5 million Whites. This again gives us a ratio of 2:1. On this basis, if one considers the number of White children at present receiving some or other form of preprimary education, one arrives at a figure of approximately 63 000. If we then apply the 2:1 ratio, we find that potentially there are approximately 125 000 Black children to be involved in pre-primary education. If we consider how many of them are undergoing pre-primary education today, we find that the figure is a mere 4 000. In other words, this is a facet which can be increased thirtyfold to meet potential requirements. It is therefore a field we have to give the highest priority to, as the department is in fact doing.

Now one can ask: Is it really in the interests of the child? There are a great many children for whom provision can be made, but is it really in the interests of the child to undergo pre-primary education? When we consider the social structures of the Black man in his traditional environment, we see that the small child, who is 3, 4 or 5 years old, has many mothers. This is a matter of tradition. He also has many fathers, because all his uncles are his fathers and they all look after him. In other words, he grows up in a protected atmosphere where adults care for him. And not only that, Sir; he is taught certain things, for example to herd cattle—something which is competitive and of importance to him. But this is no longer the case. Today we have a totally different problem. When we get to the cities, we find that those clan ties no longer exist, that those family ties no longer exist. Owing to economic pressures, the mother and the father have to go out to work and the young and receptive child is then at a stage where he has to have someone to guide him. For that reason I maintain that when in considering the future, it is essential that provision be made for these children. Because major development possibilities are being envisaged, I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that it is essential for this aspect to be tackled with every means at our disposal. In this connection I want to congratulate the department on what it has already achieved, and also on the enthusiasm and absolute determination with which it is undertaking the task.

Sir, I see my time has almost expired. In conclusion I want to tell the hon. the Minister that we have to take this as a very serious priority. It is something that has to be developed, because it is in the interests of peace in our Black townships. Sir, it is in the interests of the Black people. And, Sir, when we give language instruction to these toddlers, as is in fact being done, we should tell them epic stories from their past. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with what the hon. member for Pretoria West said in connection with the specific subject he dealt with. I agree with his ideas in this connection. I also want to associate myself with what he said about the annual report before us, for which I should like to express my appreciation. I want to single out two specific matters in this report which, in my opinion are of particular importance. They are diversification and the back-up services dealt with in this report.

Before I get down to particulars, I want to associate myself with the hon. member for Lichtenburg by telling you that the Conservative Party attaches great value to the education of the Black people. We consider it to be a very important priority that the Black people should, in their own interests, receive the best possible education. But, Sir, we believe that that education should be presented on the basis of separate development, that we have to work within the framework of separateness and that this development should be fully available to these people within this framework. I therefore want to say that it was not clear to my why the hon. member for Gezina, when he spoke earlier this morning, referred in his customary generalizing manner to those of the far right who begrudge the Blacks their education. He could definitely not have been referring the Conservative Party in this context, because in our programme of principles and our policy we have stated quite clearly that the Conservative Party adheres to the principle and policy of comprehensive education for the other population groups in this country as well. We can therefore—and I assume that this is how he meant it—not be included in that general reference to the far right element.

Sir, I want to refer, in particular, to the matter of diversification. I do not want to repeat what the hon. member for Pretoria West said; I want to refer to diversification in connection with secondary schools, and the particular attention it is receiving in that regard. In this report diversification is defined in very striking terms. I should like to quote it for the purposes of my argument. On page 6 of the report is stated—

I want to express the hope that this diversification programme for secondary schools will assist in improving the pass rate in the high schools. If we consider the statistics furnished in this report, and particularly the Std. 8 pass rate, it is clear that is a very small percentage of pupils in category A. The percentage is slightly larger in the case of category B and increases steadily until one gets to the E group. One finds a tremendously large percentage of pupils passing in the E group. I want to express the hope that this programme of diversification will assist in gradually decreasing that figure and increasing the figure in the A category so that one has a larger pass figure in the A category in Std 8.

In the case of Std. 10, or matric, one finds the same phenomenon. For every pupil who gets a matriculation exemption, there are three who get school-leaving certificates. The ratio is approximately 1:3. I believe that this programme could also assist in gradually changing this ratio, so that one could perhaps end up with a ratio of 2:2 or even 3:1—i.e. three matriculants with matriculation exemption as against one pupil with a school-leaving certificate. I think it is of the utmost importance for these particular Black people to get their own people trained to such a pitch that they can become worthy citizens of their own national States, thereby furnishing their own people with the highest possible degree of productivity, something we do not begrudge them. For that reason, Sir, I also hope that the training of teachers will progressively increase so that we have more qualified teachers in those classrooms. It is no use our attempting to increase the standard of education within the group if there are no teachers in those classrooms whose standards or qualifications are such as to enable them to really bring those children the desired standard of education or training. In a slight altercation with the hon. member for Standerton I mentioned here a while ago—and I think he agreed with me—that I was convinced that it was our duty to train an increasing number of Black people to become teachers, to teach classes of their own people and to be of service to those people themselves, and that we were gradually going to wean them of the idea of having White teachers in their classes. If we can succeed in letting them have their own teachers in their own classes, I think we shall have done these Black people a very great and important service in the field of education. We feel it is of the fundamental importance to aim at having ethnic education—i.e. education within the ethnic context, within the specific cultural context. As far as the various Black peoples in our midst are concerned, there are differences in culture. There are language differences, essential differences in customs and habits and certain cultural differences, and it will also be of fundamental importance to these people to have teachers from their own people in their own classes, to give their own people the necessary education within a specific cultural context, within their own ethnic and linguistic context. This does not apply to the humanities either; it also applies to other subjects where education within a specific cultural context is of fundamental importance to them. It would be far more acceptable to them than if it were taught to them in a foreign language or a foreign medium.

Sir, in this connection I also want to tell you that I feel it is of the utmost importance that this should be the case, and I welcome the announcement by the hon. the Minister this afternoon that more reading matter will be made available to these people in their own language. One realizes this particularly when one looks back at the history of our own Afrikaner people. In making this statement, I am convinced that this is true, because one sees how our education grew from the fact that we had reading matter available in our own language. As those people have reading matter available to them in their own languages, their education and training can be built up within their own linguistic and cultural context. I really want to express the hope that the Department will continue to find people who are prepared not only to write those books, but also to publish them, because an investment in this connection is of the utmost importance to those Black peoples. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not have problems with the hon. member for Koedoespoort; I think he made a very positive contribution today, one hundred percent nationalist. He asked who was making these statements about other people. I think he should rather consider the statements of the AWB, who have crept in with them, and see whether he agrees with them.

The hon. member for Lichtenburg who spoke here today has, as we used to say at school, done a somersault in comparison with what he last said about the department. I can understand why he is feeling a little bitter today, because there were 18 of them and now there are only 17. The wolf has caught one of them. The sleeper was caught; he is not here now.

That hon. member was a member of the junior Torch Commando.

The hon. member for Rissik has moved from the far left to the far right. I have never been anything but a nationalist. I am proud of it, but that hon. member has already belonged to five parties. That hon. member is almost like Connie Mulder; he has been a member of every party their is and he is yet to establish his own party and become his own leader. The hon. member is trying to annoy me.

I want to return to what the hon. member Prof. Olivier said. He made the popular accusation which is made every year, namely that there are insufficient funds for Black education. I think that is an unfair accusation.

Before I reply any further to the hon. member Prof. Olivier’s speech, I want to put a question to the hon. member for Houghton who is sitting there all on her own today. I wonder whether she agrees that riots do Black education any good? She looks so lonely, someone should take some notice of her. It looks to me as though she is about to burst into tears. I suppose they were quarrelling…

Nobody said that.

She has hold of the Black Sash here. That hon. member agreed and I think the hon. member for Pinelands did as well, because it is the typical Houghton Progs who make those statements. Those are they.

The hon. member for Cape Town Gardens also made accusations here. He said there were problem areas we were ignoring. Surely that is unfair. He said Black education was not receiving sufficient priority and that we were too lackadaisical about this matter. He referred to opportunities for equal education and said we do not have the political courage to do these things, but I just want to tell that hon. member that the hon. the Prime Minister stated quite clearly on 5 May what the intention of this department and this Government was. He undertook to create opportunities for equal education for everyone in South Africa. That is after all an important step in the right direction and one must acknowledge it. I am certain the hon. member for Pinelands will admit that it is a step in the right direction.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens should resume his seat. That hon. member talks about equal education, but that was exactly what the hon. the Prime Minister said. He also said that there was a historic backlog. That is true and it is not that easy or inexpensive to make up the leeway. Another hon. member referred to the problems developing peoples first have to overcome before any progress can be made. That is why we cannot make rapid progress. These things cannot be achieved overnight.

Surely the most important task of this department is to eliminate illiteracy in the first place. The department has had great success with this. The first priority is after all primary education. Today the hon. the Minister spelt out to us that they have made wonderful progress in this regard. They have a very good record in connection with primary education in South Africa. They are not moving towards the other priorities such as pre-primary education, secondary education, tertiary education and technical training. An hon. member said here today, that 84% of the children were in the primary education stage at the moment. This stage is therefore very important and the department has rightly given its full attention to this aspect. It is phenomenal that over the past ten years there has been an increase of 1 343% in the expenditure on Black education. This is an achievement which cannot simply be glossed over. The history of Black education shows that it was initially in the hands of missionaries and that the churches were responsible for it. Since the State took over in 1954 there has been dramatic progress. We all have to admit that. Education is being taken to the masses, with primary education as first priority.

There are other goals such as compulsory education, free education and mother tongue education. There are also other very important aspects of education such as the erection of schools. Another important aspect the hon. the Minister spelt out quite clearly was that the quality of education was being improved. The improvement in the quality of primary education is at present receiving high priority. However, there are problems in providing teachers. As the hon. member for Koedoespoort, who has now disappeared, also stated, teachers’ qualifications have to be improved. The Black school population which is increasing by leaps and bounds is also a problem for the department. In 1950, 8% of all Black children were at school and by 1982 that figure had reached 22%. As a result of the drastic increase in the primary school population it is very difficult for the department to make up the leeway and still make progress. When one considers the percentage of children between the ages of 7 and 16 who are at school, one finds that in 1951 it was 36% and that today it is 79%. At present there are 11 000 schools, between 83 000 and 84 000 teachers and almost four million pupils. These people have a tremendous task and they are performing it very well. There has been a dramatic increase, as another hon. member and I have already mentioned, in the budget for Black education. There is even growth in a difficult year such as this. One finds that the Black population at primary schools has increased during the past 30 years from 1 million to almost six million. This is one of the problems that will have to be dealt with.

There is now an age restriction of 16 years for admission to primary schools. I agree wholeheartedly with that because it cannot work well if one has a six year old child and a sixteen year old child in the same class. These are problems facing this department which other departments do not have.

Today an hon. member discussed the rural child and his education. I agree that there are many problems with primary schools in the rural areas and that this can speed up urbanization. The attitude of the farmers is very good but there are problems. There are housing problems and problems in regard to the distribution of these schools. However, I want to suggest that the department work in close co-operation with the South African Agricultural Union, with the farmers’ associations and with the various agricultural unions regarding the distribution of these schools. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to start by respondig to a few comments made by the hon. members for Pretoria West and Vryheid about the remarks made today by my colleague, the hon. member for Gardens, regarding unrest in schools. I believe those hon. members have deliberately distorted what he said, for what ends I do not know. It is absolutely crazy.

I read the hon. member’s Hansard.

I should like to give those hon. members the correct interpretation; there are different interpretations and those hon. members are trying to put the worst one on it that they can. I cannot see why. The hon. member must be crazy to think that we want unrest in schools. I have seen a copy of the speech of the hon. member for Gardens and I will tell you what he meant if you will just listen for a few minutes. The hon. member for Gardens said that the Government had a record of crisis management. The Government only acts and does something when a problem arises. [Interjections.] The hon. member must listen to what I have to say. The hon. member for Pretoria West gave more ammunition for overseas consumption today with his interpretation of what the hon. member for Gardens said. They only react when a fire breaks out and then spend their time running around putting them out. They act after the event. The hon. member for Gardens only said that because everything is now quiet in the country—and we are thankful for that—there is no progress and there is no action.

That is exactly what he said.

That is exactly what he said, but it is complacency on the part of those hon. members. The hon. member for Gardens is making no plea whatsoever for unrest; he merely said that because there is no unrest, nothing is being done. Those hon. members have a completely wrong interpretation. They want to put the cart before the horse.

Here is a copy; read it.

That hon. member obviously does not understand English.

Read this copy.

I have read it.

I want to deal with education in the rural areas today. Many of the points which I want to raise have already been raised by other hon. members, but I want to come back to a few of them and deal with them specifically in the context of Natal and kwaZulu Education Department in Natal. The hon. the Minister may argue that this does not actually fall under his Department, but I would like to use kwaZulu for a few illustrative figures.

The first point is that it obviously does not make any sense whatsoever to have the hon. the Minister’s Department and the kwaZulu Department of Education administering Black education in that province. In my own hometown there are schools administered by the hon. the Minister’s Department and within a stone’s throw of these there are other schools, high schools, which are administered by the Education Department of kwaZulu. Conditions in these schools are totally different, but yet they are catering for the same population, people living in the same area, and quite often children move between the two schools. I will come back to that soon.

I believe there is one thing which we must acknowledge right at the outset and that is that since Soweto a lot of steps have been taken to put things right in Black education in South Africa. We acknowledge this and we are thankful for what is being done. Great strides have been made. We also acknowledge that the hon. the Minister and his Department are short of funds and obviously they have to allocate the resources they have. What has been happening is that areas like Soweto and the urban areas have received attention, and rightly so, but at the same time many rural areas have been neglected and have suffered as a consequence. I want to highlight a few of the problems that are experienced in rural areas and in particular the problems which the education departments in the national states are also experiencing. The first one is the question of skilled teachers. Sixty-four percent of the teachers in kwaZulu—I think in the Minister’s Department it is about 60%—have a junior certificate with a teaching diploma or less. That is an incredible backlog that has to be made up. In comparison White, Indian and Coloured schools in Natal do not have any teachers at all in that category. Another thing that compounds the problem is that these unqualified teachers have to cope with far bigger classes than their qualified counterparts. This is just adding insult to injury. You have an unqualified teacher who has to cope with far bigger classes. For example, the teacher/pupil ratio in kwaZulu Primary schools is 1:56 and in the Department of Education and Training it is 1:47. In the Natal Education Department the ratio is 1:19. I will not go into the matriculation pass rate, but, of course, figures which have been quoted today contribute to the unsatisfactory situation. There is one comment which should be made at this stage. It relates to the NRP which is represented by one member here today. I refer to actions in Natal regarding teacher training. There we have White training colleges which are half full. We have a crying need for teachers in kwaZulu. KwaZulu says it is quite happy to accept White teachers, any teachers, and we sit with a half full training college! The second point is that they have a policy whereby they phase out older married teachers, qualified teachers, in order to make room for new graduates from the training colleges. I think it is a shameful waste of resources and something which is, looking at the overall scene of this country, unforgiveable. I would like to hear what the hon. member has to say about this because I think it is an absolute disgrace.

The next point I would like to mention is the high drop-out rate at these schools but I will not go into that in any greater detail as it has been dealt with today. Another problems is the sheer lack of schools. This is shown through various examples like the number of schools where the double-session system is applied. In kwaZulu they have the double-session system in 889 schools out of 2 300 schools.

Read the annual report, man.

That is where I got those figures.

†I will come back to that soon. I cannot reply to it across the floor of the House.

Another matter is the shortage of boarding schools. In the whole of Natal there are 47 boarding schools of which only 10, I think, are run by the hon. the Minister’s Department. These 47 boarding schools have to cater for 720 schools on White farms. The only way in which children on White farms can progress beyond Std. 5 is to go to boarding school. All those children have to be channelled through those few boarding schools where they have hostel facilities. It is absolutely impossible. Most have absolutely no chance whatsoever of progressing beyond Std. 5. They are completely locked in where they are.

One other point about Black education relates to the quality of education. I know the hon. the Minister said that it was the policy to upgrade educational standards and to make them the same for everybody but, whether we like it or not, as long as there are separate education systems there will always exist the widespread suspicion—that the differences in the system in fact mean differences in quality. There is a difference in quality right now. What is so serious about this is that the homeland education systems are preparing these children to enter the same economy that our children, Coloured children and Indian children are entering. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is always a pleasure to speak after the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South, particularly when he starts his speech on a positive note, as he did this afternoon. He touched on a very important matter, but he accused the wrong people when he referred to the NRP and Natal with its half-full teachers’ training colleges, facilities, etc. I wish the hon. the Leader of the official Opposition were present in this House today. He is a social scientist and he, more than anybody else, will perhaps realize that socio-economic upliftment begins with training. If one does not train people with regard to education, health, how to eat, what to eat, etc., one may as well forget it. What I missed in that hon. member’s speech, was that he did not, first of all, appeal to the young people who support him and his party in this country—here I am referring specifically to the majority of English-speaking people in South Africa—to offer their services to education and training in South Africa. They ought to present themselves in their thousands for rendering assistance in those areas where the need is greatest. However, what is the situation in South Africa today? Afrikaans-speaking people are teaching English-speaking pupils in English-medium schools. I think this is an absolute disgrace! Materialism lies at the root of this problem. It is more rewarding to go and make money in commerce and industry than to offer one’s services to education and professions of that nature in order to perform the most important educational task there is, namely that of educating the children of South Africa. I am referring to all the children of South Africa. I want to issue a challenge to hon. members of the official Opposition to take this matter to their caucus and discuss it there and then by way of a speech by the Leader of the official Opposition, to make an appeal to that section of the South African public to meet the tremendous responsibility they have with regard to education, training and guidance, a task which they have been neglecting shamefully. Now those hon. members are absolutely quiet. I am pleased that the hon. member for Pinelands is making positive sounds in my direction, but we shall see whether we have any positive reaction in the future. One of those hon. members is now casting his eyes heavenward, but I want to tell them that the solution is not to be found there at present; it is here among the people of South Africa and in the homelands where they have to do their share. The hon. member Prof. Olivier knows this and will in fact concede that they are shamefully neglecting to do their share. The hon. member Prof. Olivier, who was brought to this House to provide information, to do research and to write speeches, has written the wrong speeches and has not yet done his share since becoming a member of that party. We are waiting for him to do so. I am simply stating my point of view. The hon. member for Houghton has also conceded that for as long as she has been in this House, her party has shamefully neglected to do its share in respect of educating the under-privileged in South Africa. That hon. member is wearing a bluish or blackish dress today. If it is black, I say that it is because of the Black Sash that she has not done her share.

You are wearing a red tie!

I should like to avail myself of this opportunity to congratulate the hon. the Minister most sincerely on his appointment to this post. I have had the privilege of knowing him for many years. He has a sound scientific and administrative background and he performs his task with vigour. We who are close to him, know that his top priority is to develop this department with the enormous task it has. The hon. member for Lichtenburg said today that, in his opinion, this was one of the most important departments in the entire Government set-up at present. I not only want to congratulate and convey my very best wishes to both the hon. the Minister and his Department, I also want to congratulate him on the fine report that has been compiled. I want to congratulate him on as well as thank him for the guidance which was given to us in the small auditorium a few months ago and which was of a very high standard.

Some very significant statements were made here today. I wish to associate myself with hon. members who referred to our responsibility with regard to the young child, pre-primary education. We have been through all the stages. Hon. members on both sides of the House have spoken about this. I just want to make a few comments on adult education. I am speaking from experience, because I have had a farm school on my farm for 15 years. It has four teachers and 100 pupils. I want to refer to the tremendous need that exists for in-service training for the staff of farm schools. On the other hand, I want to say at once—and the old headmaster of the school on my farm will read this in Hansard, since I am going to show it to him—that I have the highest appreciation for him, a person who goes to Pretoria for special courses at least once every three of four months and also sends his staff there from time to time. They receive in-service training and, slowly but surely, they improve the quality not only of the work they do, but also of the quality of the education of the children they teach. In-service training is one of the greatest assets we have, not only for primary school teaching, but also for post-school teaching at our Black schools. The fact of the matter is that it is not sufficient to provide only for the education of the child; adult education is just as essential, because of the changed circumstances we live in. Every five years South Africa is a new country in the sense that this wonderful country of ours develops and grows at a rate experienced by no other country in the free world. Furthermore, I wish to refer, compassionately in a sense, to those who do their best to teach or to work in industry, but whose qualifications simply do not meet the exigencies of the times. By way of this branch of the department and the centres that exist throughout the country an attempt is being made to fill that gap. Positive work is being done. What happens in this process, is that the individual not only discovers and identifies himself through education, particularly as regards priorities in his community, but is, in fact, engaged in community development. Owing to his improved training, he is taking the lead in the community. He is rendering the best service that can be rendered, namely community service at schools, service centres and on control boards, where he makes an input. Doors are being opened to the Black communities in South Africa through community service. This development has only been taking place since 1975. I wish to conclude by saying that these various centres are supported by the department and that the salaries of the teachers who teach there are also borne by the department. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I just want to say that the position in South Africa is that the Afrikaans-speaking people in particular have made a tremendous contribution to the education of their own people. At present they are doing so with regard to English-speaking people and other population groups as well. There are many of my former student colleagues who were with me at the teachers’ college in Pretoria whom I know have done very good work in respect of the education of the various population groups.

At the beginning of this century it was not only the Dutch who made a tremendous contribution to the education of the Afrikaner but also many English-speaking people who contributed their share towards moulding education in South Africa. When one refers to certain population groups, I do not think one should do so in such way as to create the impression that they have made no contribution. When I was at school I had many English-speaking teachers and they did very good work. That, then, is what I wanted to say in regard to the speech of the hon. member for Brits.

There are a few matters I should like to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister. During the past week it has come to my attention that the hon. the Minister of Cooperation and Development visited a Black school in the Waterberg district during the Battle of the Bergs and gave the children the rest of the day off. I should just like to ask the hon. the Minister whether I am correct, and whether this did, in fact, take place. Secondly, I want to ask whether any other Minister, like the Minister of Co-operation and Development, has the right to do something like that. I would also like to know what the hon. the Minister’s policy is in respect of this particular matter. Is it right that an hon. Minister should visit a Black school during a White election battle and that this should receive publicity? That is the first matter I want to raise.

The second question has to do with the accusation the hon. the Minister of Co-operation and Development levelled at the hon. member for Waterberg last year, viz. that he was supposedly co-responsible for the unrest in Soweto, which was a very serious allegation indeed. I want to ask the hon. the Minister, who has been in charge of this portfolio for a considerable length of time, whether he has read the report of the judicial commission and whether any additional evidence was forthcoming to indicate that this statement of the hon. the Minister of Co-operation and Development was in fact true.

Thirdly, I should like to have heard a very clear policy statement from the hon. the Minister today with regard to his fundamental standpoint and his view of Black education in the new constitutional dispensation the Government envisages. I should like to know how this is going to affect Black education, who the present portfolio of Education and Training in the present dispensation will fall under, who will be responsible for it, whether it will be a matter of common concern or an own affair, and how it will fit into the new constitutional dispensation.

There is another point I should like to mention today. The hon. member for Gezina made a few speeches recently in which he referred to the so-called right wing and far right wing in this country and said that the right wing and the far right adopt the standpoint that the Whites should do nothing for Black people and, in this case, for Black education. I should very much like the hon. the Minister and the hon. member for Gezina, as the NP’s chief spokesman on this matter, to spell this out to us clearly. I think the time has come in South African politics for us to tell one another frankly precisely what we think and feel and believe as regards particular standpoints, not only in respect of one’s own policy and one’s own view of things but also when analyzing the standpoint of one’s opponent, so that it can be determined precisely what one’s factual information is and where it comes from and so that we as Whites can face up to one another squarely as far as this matter is concerned as well. I want to tell the hon. member for Gezina that the previous Minister of Education and Training, the hon. member for Lichtenburg, has not deviated from the fundamental standpoint he adhered to when he was still a member of the NP as regards Black education and education for Coloureds and Indians. I also want to tell the hon. member that I was a member of the White education study group of the NP from 1966. I was also a member of the Coloured Affairs study group, as well as of that for Blacks and Indians. The fundamental views to which I have adhered over the years as regards education, are precisely the same as those I hold today as a member of the CP. I want the hon. member for Gezina to give us a very clear exposition in his speeches now or at a later stage, of what he means when he speaks of farm rightists who begrudge Black people everything. I want to say that as far as the CP is concerned, we strongly support the diversity of peoples in South Africa. That is the first strong standpoint we adhere to. Secondly, we are strongly in favour of each of the various population groups having its own sovereignty. In the third instance, we are also strongly in favour of each of the peoples of Southern Africa having its own geographic area over which it will exercise its jurisdiction.

Are the Coloureds a people?

I want to tell the hon. member for Pretoria West that there was a time when Adv. B. J. Vorster, as leader of the NP, held that view, and I do not know of a single member of the NP who ever stood up and told Mr. Vorster that he disagreed with him.

What is your standpoint?

I shall tell you what my standpoint is when we discuss the constitutional dispensation.

You do not have a standpoint now?

I do have a standpoint, yes, and a very clear one too. The CP regards the Coloureds as a nation in the making. Then there is also the White nation, the Zulu nation, the Indian nation and so on. I want to tell the hon. member for Pretoria West that he can come and take lessons from me in regard to the concept of a people, a nation, a language and a culture.

It is a pity you have to pat yourself on the back.

Yes, I am patting myself on the back. The new NP’s, the governing party’s concept of a nation is different, from that of the CP. The concept of a nation of the new NP is that Coloureds, Whites and Indians form one nation. The Minister of National Education said so. I should very much like the governing party to spell out these matters to us on the basis of their concept of a nation in South Africa.

You are the new HNP.

I want to tell the hon. member for Vryheid not only that he was a member of the junior Torch Commando but also that when he was at school he cleaned the shoes of the Home-guard.

You are a dyed-in-the-wool United Party supporter.

I would rather be a dyed-in-the-wool United Party supporter in the CP than a new Prog in the new NP.

As regards our view on Black education, I just want to say that the roots of Black education, the momentum of which is still being maintained by the present new NP, can be traced back to the late Dr. Verwoerd…

May I put a question to the hon. member?

Unfortunately I do not have the time. The hon. member for Brits should rather put his question to Mr. Eugene Terre’Blanche, since he has the AWB on his brain. The basis of this Department of Education and Training can be found in the formulation of the idea of the multiplicity of peoples in Southern Africa, as set out by the late Dr. Hendrik Verwoerd. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I must honestly say that I regret that, in a certain respect, I was responsible for the hon. member for Rissik being given a turn to speak this afternoon. I was kind enough to allocate the CP an additional turn to speak because of the fact that we have a little more time for this debate, but, unfortunately, the hon. member for Rissik has now come forward with his political rhetoric and he has made no constructive contribution to the debate we are conducting here this afternoon. The impression I gained was that he wanted to speak about education and training, but instead of doing so he abused the opportunity afforded to him by repeating a lot of political rhetoric we are thoroughly sick of by now. [Interjections.]

Order! The only hon. member I have called upon to speak is the hon. member for Johannesburg West. The hon. member may proceed.

The hon. member for Rissik has made the statement that he ostensibly still subscribes to the same views on education which he probably subscribed to in the fifties when he was not a member of the NP, and which he held when he was a member of the NP. I just want to tell him that if his views on education are still the same, he furnished the best proof possible today that those views, as well as his views on ethnicity, do not correspond with what the National Party has always stood for, nor do they correspond with a purely Christian National philosophy and view of life, which are based on love and justice. This afternoon the hon. member for Rissik demonstrated to us to what extent he has in fact deviated from those views by objecting to the visit of the hon. the Minister of Co-operation and Development to a Black school and giving the pupils of that school a day or half a day off or whatever the facts of the case may be. I think it is ridiculous and reprehensible to object to something of that nature. That hon. Minister is responsible to this Government and the White community to maintain relations with the Black community properly. I think we should have respect and appreciation for the fact that that hon. Minister, in conjunction with the hon. the Minister of Education and Training, is achieving success in handling situations of conflict in South Africa. We should ask ourselves the following question: When we were at school… [Interjections.]

Order! Would the hon. member for Johannesburg West please resume his seat until the hon. member for Rissik and the hon. member for Vryheid have finished their dialogue. The hon. member may proceed.

I want to tell the hon. member for Rissik that when he and I were at school, we also used to get the day off when a very important person visited the school. Of course this happened, and what is wrong with it? Surely, it is ridiculous for that hon. member to object to something of this nature now. I think it is reprehensible.

Another reprehensible allegation made by the hon. member for Rissik was his reference to the so-called new National Party, whatever that may mean. I think he should try to qualify and explain what he means by that. I do not think the National Party has ever been what the hon. member for Rissik understood it to be. I think that the more speeches the hon. member makes, the better we understand the fact that the hon. member was never part of the true essence of the National Party.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to come to the question of teacher training. However, I first want to conclude the previous point I discussed by saying that it is a great pity that time and again the topic we ought to be discussing here, viz. education and training, lapses into a discussion of irrelevant matters by hon. members of the CP. One finds this in every debate, and I wish we could dispense with that at some stage so that we may conduct a constructive debate on the real topic of discussion.

As regards teacher training, I want to say that in the discussion of this Vote we should praise the hon. the Minister and the department for what is being done with regard to the training of Black teachers. I shall conclude with proof that the position with regard to the training of Black teachers is in fact a very good one. At present we have 31 teachers’ training colleges in the national states and in the RSA. The department is responsible for nine of these training colleges. The present enrolment figure at these 31 colleges is more than 15 000 students. In 1982 alone 6 100 teachers qualified at these institutions. Another figure that can be placed on record is that during the period 1961 to 1982, more than 80 000 Black teachers were trained in South Africa. I think this is an excellent achievement.

In order to make provision for the further training of teachers already in service, a number of possibilities are offered by the department in conjunction with the various training institutions. There are, for example, in-service training courses for teachers, and in 1982 there were 1 000 teachers who took these courses in additional professional training at a number of institutions located at Mabopane East, Soweto, Langa, Sebokeng, Potchefstroom. Pietermaritzburg, Port Elizabeth and on the East Rand. Furthermore, it is worth taking cognizance of the fact that during the past year it was possible to phase out the pre-std. 10 training courses for teachers as well as the two-year training course for teachers, and that these were replaced entirely by three-year training courses for the various facets of education, i.e. primary education, secondary education and technical education.

Over and above the training provided at teachers’ training colleges, teachers are also being trained at the three universities for Blacks, i.e. the four-year degree courses in education which are also offered there as well as the post-graduate education diplomas.

Then there is also the possibility that teachers may improve their academic qualifications by way of training programmes for adults, in which 4 400 teachers participated last year at the various centres for adult education.

As regards the salary position of teachers; I think that it is important to take note that it is the stated policy to eliminate the salary gap between Black and White teachers as soon as possible, and that Black teachers in promotion posts with a minimum of three years’ professional training are already on the same salary scale as their White colleagues. Salary parity has therefore already been achieved in these cases. In addition, conditions of service are already on a par.

All this sketches a rosy picture, and makes one realize that the situation is not so bad. I am by no means saying that the situation is altogether satisfactory. As regards the total number of teachers, there were 83 742 for a total pupil population of 3,66 million last year. Expressed in teacher-pupil ratios, this means a ratio of 43,7:1. This is, from the nature of the case, not a satisfactory figure, as yet but if we want that ratio to be more satisfactory—for example, a ratio of 35:1—it means that 105 000 teachers are needed, whereas for a ratio of 30:1, 122 000 teachers are needed. Seen as a whole, there is therefore a shortage of 10 000 or 15 000 teachers, or at worst, in terms of a ratio of 30:1, a shortage of 40 000 teachers. As against that, it must be taken into account that at present there are 15 000 enrolled teachers at teachers’ training colleges alone. We can therefore look forward optimistically to the prospect of being able to meet these needs at some stage. However, one should not forget that there has been a very sharp rise in the number of pupils attending Black schools.

In conclusion, however, I wish to make the appeal that no stone should be left unturned—on the part of the department as well as private organizations in the Black community—to provide the necessary incentives so that the required number of Black teachers may continue to meet this important need.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just taken his seat has quite rightly emphasized the importance of teacher training and no one would deny that we have a very long way to go but that progress has been made, particularly during the last few years.

As far as the hon. member for Brits is concerned, I want to place on record that we on this side of the House, I myself and others, have repeatedly called on the English-speaking community in South Africa to address itself to teaching in South Africa and I agree with him that the response has not been as good as it ought to have been. There are some factors that play a role. For example, in Cape Town there is no place for someone to be trained as a primary school teacher. I think that providing such a facility is one of the ways in which one can improve that situation. There may be other factors too. But I can concede that we are not on strong grounds. The English-speaking community have not accepted their full responsibility and I endorse that again today.

The other point I want to make, concerns the hon. member for Pretoria West. He took issue with my hon. colleague for Cape Town Gardens who made a speech earlier today. I can only assume that the hon. member for Pretoria West had a very bad week. Let me read out what my colleague said. He spoke first about the dangerously complacent attitude of the Government in terms of a reduction in expenditure. Then he went on to say—

What is more sensible than that? Then he says: “Unfortunately, as a result of that I think that things are being allowed to slide.” In other words, when things are all right this Government seems to imagine that they can go into low gear. For the hon. member to therefore come and talk this total nonsense here, is a waste of time. [Interjections.]

I now want to get back to the debate. Firstly, I want to comment on the annual report and want to say that I too agree that this has become a mine of information, particularly in recent years. I want to refer to page 120 under “Progress” under “Universities”. Paragraph 9.1.1 reads as follows—

I can only assume that this report is the so-called Retief report. If I am correct, it is very difficult for the ordinary member of this Committee to decide whether or not progress is being made, because most members of the Committee and most members of Parliament have never seen this report. The report was an interdepartmental report, it was regarded as highly confidential, and those of us sitting on the commission examining the Vista University, were allowed to see this report, but it was made very clear to us that it was highly confidential and that we could not use it outside of that committee and outside of that debate. But the fact of the matter is that if you look at the recommendations made by that committee, one of the strongest was that there should be no compulsory segregation of universities. There has been no progress made in this respect whatsoever. Indeed, on the contrary. I can only assume that the recommendations made by the minority of one on that committee, namely Prof. P. S. Dreyer, are being carried out. We now have the quota system introduced into our universities. That is not progress; it is a retrogressive step. The hon. the Minister knows that he and I have been engaged in correspondence concerning a number of young Blacks who have attempted to get education for example, at Wits University. The hon. the Minister wrote to me only this week telling me that there is one case in respect of which the department had changed its mind and that the student has been given a permit in order to study there. Well and good, but others whom I have applied for—I do not even know these people; they have written to me giving me step by step what their qualifications are, why they want to study at Wits, etc.—have not been so successful. Here, for example, is a young man who applied for entrance to Medunsa, but he was unsuccessful. He then applied to Wits and was accepted for B.Sc. and then offered a bursary by Mobil Oil to cover all his expenses, academic and living. The bursary is applicable only if he attends the University of the Witwatersrand. Wits has accepted him, the bursary is there and we obviously have a young man who is qualified to do a B.Sc. with the hope of transferring, if possible, even to Medunsa, to become a doctor. But what does the hon. the Minister say? He says: “I regret, I cannot change my mind. He cannot study there.” What on earth do you do to a young man when you deny him that opportunity? I think it is a very serious comment on this report.

There is another comment I want to make. I have read this report from top to bottom and I cannot find any reference to the disturbances which took place at Fort Hare last year. 1 500 students were expelled, or as the hon. the Minister would say, expelled themselves because they did not attend the lectures. I am not defending that. I am not aware of the exact circumstances. All I know is of the number of Black students who told me that their facilities in terms of lighting in the study halls were so bad that they decided, after complaining many times, that they had to take matters into their own hands. What happened? There was a minor riot at Fort Hare, but there is no reference to it in this report. What else is then missing from this report? How on earth are we to assess what is happening at our universities in South Africa is something as significant as this is totally excluded? I have sent a telegram to that hon. Minister. At the time he had only just taken over. I received a very courteous reply back, both a telegram and a letter. I asked: Won’t you please institute a commission of inquiry and, secondly won’t you please reverse the decision and not allow those 1 500 kids to leave the campus and to go on to the streets. The hon. the Minister finally wrote back and said: “Look, I thought about this very carefully, and I am sorry but I cannot have a commission of inquiry and, secondly, I am not prepared to reverse that decision.” I think that that was a very, very bad beginning to what I hope is going to be a very promising stay in office. I say that, Sir, because if you recall the trouble we had at Turfloop, you will know that the Government appointed a commission of inquiry, I think it was the Snyman Commission. What resulted from that? We had an excellent report detailing the views and the attitude of the rector, of the teachers and of the students, and a lot of good flowed from that. But now we are being denied that opportunity. However, I understood that most of those students—I would like some information from the hon. the Minister—have been allowed back at Fort Hare in 1983. Of course, the fact that a half year has gone and that no fees are repayable, means a very real problem to hardpressed students. What worries me even more is our relationship, or South Africa’s relationship or this Government’s relationship with Fort Hare. We run that university on an agency basis, but in every other way that university is in Ciskei. It is in a foreign country. I want to know how much longer we are going to operate that university on an agency basis, because what happened when you had trouble there? You had dogs, you had policemen with guns patrolling the corridors of the university, you had police trucks coming to take students to the station. But I am told by the public relations man that it was just a question of offering them a lift to the station. They were not offered a lift to the station, but were taken away by police trucks. It was not the S. A. Police…

The Ciskei Police.

Yes, that is right. I think this is an impossible, intolerable situation, namely that you have a university for which we accept responsibility on an agency basis, but that their police run the place whenever there is trouble. It cannot happen and I want to say that it is unforgivable that there is no account of that in the report.

Mr. Chairman, I want to start by referring to some of the remarks made by hon. members who have taken part in the debate. I want to talk, in the first place, about the educational system and, in the second place, about the view that there should be only one department of education in the country.

I want to quote from a letter written by a woman from New Zealand who visited South Africa and who is regarded with very high esteem in educational circles in New Zealand. I want to quote two or three sentences from what she wrote on 7 December 1982, and then also a paragraph from her final report. She said—

The second comment I want to quote, is—

Is she talking about Blacks?

Yes, she is talking about Blacks.

Did she talk with them, not about them?

This is a quotation from her report, which reads as follows—

*Mr. Chairman, I am merely quoting this in reply to the statements made in connection with one system. We agree wholeheartedly with what a totally independent person from New Zealand said in this connection after she had visited South Africa.

The hon. member for Gardens referred to the involvement of Black people at grass roots level in the planning of education. I am able to tell him that I do not find fault with his statement. I also want to tell him that Blacks already constitute more than 50% of the members of the subject committees that decide on the subjects, and that approximately 70% of the assistant examiners at Std. 8 and Std. 10 level are Blacks. School committees and control boards elected by the respective communities are 100% Black. Through decentralization parents and communities will again be directly involved in the planning and control of schools at regional level. I just want to tell the hon. member that approximately 240 inspectors out of a total of 300 are already Black. The hon. member should also take a look at the composition of our councils for the various universities and technikons. He will see there that a large percentage of them are already Black. The advisory council I referred to earlier is 100% Black. There is not a single White on that advisory council. I want to agree with the hon. member that one may argue that this is still insufficient. If the hon. member wants to argue in this way, I shall not cross swords with him about it, but this is a process we shall bring to fruition slowly but surely. We shall slowly but surely involve the Black people, when it is possible for them to do so and when they have reached that stage, to a greater extent in decision-making.

The next point the hon. member mentioned concerned the Department’s liaison with teachers’ associations. I think the hon. member was probably referring to Atasa. At present our liaison with Atasa is on a very high level. I personally have already had a very brief meeting with the representative council or committee of Atasa at which their president was also present. They liaise with the Department on a regular basis. This year they have already met five times and conditions of employment and educational matters, in fact the entire spectrum of problems in connection with Black education and the teacher in this set-up, have been discussed with them.

The hon. member asked whether progress had been made. In this connection I can tell him that in 1968 the child/teacher ratio was 58:1. The position improved to such an extent that it was 43:1 in 1982. I think it is a phenomenal achievement to have been able to make this ratio so much more favourable in so short a time.

As far as schools are concerned I just want to tell the hon. member that the figures in connection with certain areas are not very favourable but that we are striving for a child/classroom ratio of 45:1 for primary schools and 35:1 for secondary schools. There are schools where the ratio is already better than our target. We hope that we shall be able to improve our target even further in the future. There are regions where the ratio in respect of secondary schools is already 20,9:1, viz. on a par with the figure for White education. We are working hard in this regard and to illustrate the progress we have made I just want to say that last year on average we completed and delivered 14 to 15 classrooms per working day. If this is not progress then I do not know what progress is. It is an outstanding achievement if one can deliver 15 classrooms per day to improve that ratio.

The next matter the hon. member and other hon. members referred to was the question of the backlog in connection with administrative matters, salaries etc. Unfortunately, in this connection hon. members referred to statistics that are almost two years old. Let us therefore look at a few figures in connection with the present position. Unfortunately I do not have the time to mention all the figures. At that stage outstanding postal articles totalled 18 000. At the moment there are just over 4 000 outstanding postal articles. This still sounds a lot, but those 4 000 postal articles represent two days’ work because we receive on average 2 000 postal articles a day. I think that here too outstanding work has been done and, particularly in view of the manpower shortage we are experiencing, we can congratulate the Department and in particular the administrative division which deals with postal articles on this outstanding achievement. Another figure that was mentioned was the figure in connection with outstanding salaries. The figure mentioned exceeded 700. At this stage there is not a single teacher in South Africa of whom the Department is aware who does not receive his salary at the end of the month. There is no backlog. If there is a backlog it will be because the relevant school did not inform the Department of a new appointment or promotion. However, the fact remains that that teacher will still receive his salary according to his old scale. The adjustments in connection with the previous incremental structure of teachers’ salaries were 41 000 in arrears at one stage. At present not a single one is outstanding. We can continue in this vein and we will find that the picture is quite rosy. I feel we should congratulate the Department on this outstanding achievement.

I have already dealt with the next point the hon. member mentioned but perhaps I could just give a few examples in this connection. In the Highveld region the child/classroom ratio is 57:1 for primary schools and 55:1 for secondary schools. In Johannesburg it is 50:1 for primary schools and 42:1 for secondary schools. I feel this is excellent progress. In the Cape the ratio is 53:1 for primary schools and 28:1 for secondary schools. We have a problem on the Transvaal Highveld and the ratio there is still unacceptably high. In the Northern Transvaal the ratio is 48:1 for primary schools and 40:1 for secondary schools. In the Orange Free State the ratio is 50:1 for primary schools and 29:1 for secondary schools. I think this is excellent and I believe that in the years ahead we shall eliminate this backlog.

Reference was also made to the question of matric results. We admit that matric results are not up to standard. We feel that matric results have to be improved and we are engaged in intensive programmes to assist teachers to put across syllabuses of the various subjects to the children better; in other words, to improve the quality of education. However, I do want to say that it is not all that bad. Let us consider the results of a few schools. For example, the Kannanello School at Kroonstad had a 100% matric pass. The Tiisetsang School at Bethlehem had an 88,9% matric pass. There are also a number of schools that had a matric pass of over 80%. At Frankfort, for example, the figure was 97,1%. There are schools therefore where the matric results are really satisfactory.

There is another aspect we have to bear in mind—I think the hon. member for Koedoespoort also referred to this—and that is that there has to be a larger matric exemption figure. In this connection I may just refer to the matric exemption figures of the following schools: Immaculata—85,1%; Inkamana—60%; Vryheid—67% and Sacred Heart—68%. However, we readily admit that there are schools where this figure is unacceptably low. I think the department is doing everything in its power to see whether that figure cannot be improved.

I think I have now replied more or less to most aspects of the speech of the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens.

What about the effect of the new constitution on Black education?

I shall refer to that, but I should like now to turn to the speech of the hon. member for Lichtenburg. I am sorry that the hon. member for Lichtenburg is not here now because apart from the very friendly words which he addressed to myself and the department at the outset and for which I have already thanked him, he said that he had problems in that he had to make the speech today which he was to have made next week when the new constitutional dispensation is discussed. I want to put the following questions to the hon. member. Perhaps the hon. member for Rissik will take cognizance of them and convey them to the hon. member for Lichtenburg. I want to ask whether the hon. member agrees when we say that equal opportunities for education for all population groups is a principle we have to accept. I think the hon. member agrees with that.

That depends on what “equal” means.

We say equal opportunities for education. Does the hon. member agree with the principle that there should be standard financing norms for all school facilities in South Africa? Is he satisfied with the principle that the examining system must be the same? Does he agree that certification has to be the same? Does he agree that we should have the same syllabuses in all schools in the Republic? Does he agree with the principle that teachers’ training standards in the Republic have to be the same? Does he agree that the salary structures must be the same? Does he agree that the conditions of employment of teachers in the Republic must be the same? Unfortunately I do not have the time to do so here but the hon. member need only read his own Hansard of 23 May 1980 to see that he agreed with these things and that he spelt them out there. I am sorry that the hon. member for Rissik has not read that speech of the then Minister of Education and Training because he will find the whole question of education set out there in detail. If he had read it he would have understood it but I am sure the hon. member did not read it. The Minister and the Government totally rejected one central education department for all population groups.

For how long?

It is futile to argue with these people. I maintain that when the Government says this it also recognizes the need for structures for centralized co-ordination and co-operation among the education structures for the various population groups on the matters in connection with which I have just put questions to the hon. member for Lichtenburg. The Government also recognizes the need for a joint ministry which will have the functional responsibility for these general matters. After all, they cannot hang in the air on “sky hooks”, as our engineers say; they must have substance, there have to be structures. That is the reply I give the hon. member in connection with his representations. It also serves to reply to the hon. member for Rissik.

Unfortunately I have very little time left and I cannot therefore reply in detail to all the hon. member’s questions, but I do undertake to give hon. members the information they require in writing if they so wish.

I want further just to refer to the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South’s speech. I want to rectify a matter in this connection because it fits in exactly with what I have just said. I am referring to the problem he mentioned in connection with education in kwaZulu. The kwaZulu Government handles education and decides for itself on education in kwazulu. What the hon. member told us today clearly indicates the importance of co-ordination between ourselves and the ten education departments of the Black States in South Africa. We shall shortly begin negotiations with the Ministers and the leaders of the national and the independent States to bring about greater co-ordination between ourselves and them as far as education matters are concerned, and to establish structures that will promote such co-ordination. If any of these aspects of policy I have just spelt out are discussed, we shall not pass a law in this new dispensation to bind those Governments. Once we have agreed in these structures, those Governments will make their own laws to bind their own education departments and systems to those principles and structures which we shall develop.

In conclusion I should like to express my thanks to all the hon. members who participated in the debate. I do not want to leave anyone out but I am thinking here of the hon. members for Brits, Winburg, Pretoria West, Standerton, Johannesburg West, Gezina, Virginia, King William’s Town and Koedoespoort. Allow me to say something about the hon. member for Koedoespoort. I think it would be unfair of me not to say this. The hon. member for Koedoespoort made an absolutely brilliant speech. I cannot disagree with a single word the hon. member for Koedoespoort said. The hon. member for Lichtenburg and the hon. member for Rissik should have a little chat with the hon. member for Koedoespoort. They may then be able to make a speech of the same calibre as he did today. I thank the hon. member for his contribution and I want to tell him how much I appreciated it. I also thank the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg South, the hon. member Prof. Olivier and the hon. member for Pinelands.

What about Fort Hare?

If the hon. member pays me a visit, I shall tell him the whole story of Fort Hare in detail. I have been involved with it from the outset. The University of Fort Hare is run by us for the Ciskeian Government on an agency basis. In terms of the agreement we have with that Government, we shall run it for a period of five years. After that we shall decide with the Ciskeian Government what to do in the future. In terms of the agreement security matters at Fort Hare are the responsibility of the Ciskeian Government. I associate myself 100% with the actions of the rector, Prof. Lambrecht, and the chairman of the council, Mr. Justice Munnik, who are very responsible people. I have also said as much to the rector and the chairman of the council. I have not yet changed my attitude but if the hon. member wants more information he can pay me a visit and I shall show him the whole file. He can then acquaint himself with the circumstances that prevailed there. Electricity was not at issue. I can give the hon. member the assurance across the floor of this Committee that electricity was not at issue.

Thank you very much for the friendly words addressed to me and my department. I almost forgot to mention the hon. member for Vryheid and if I have not mentioned other hon. members’ names I apologize. I thank hon. members for the very high level at which the greater part of this debate was conducted and also for the many penetrating questions that were asked. I think some of the question put by the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens were not dealt with. I shall reply to those questions in writing or, if he wishes to consult the Director-General or myself, we can discuss them. It is a pity that time has caught up with me and I cannot therefore reply any further.

Vote agreed to.