reported that the Standing Committee on Vote No. 18—“Industries, Commerce and Tourism”, had agreed to the Vote.

Mr. Chairman, I claim the privilege of the half-hour.

In the first instance I should like to address myself to the question of censorship According to the most recent annual report of the Department of Internal Affairs—an issue which has also been reported in the Press—censorship seem to have been applied with somewhat more of a gentle hand than we were used to experiencing in earlier years. The figures show that fewer publications than before have been declared undesireable.

I have kept a close watch on the list of publications found undesirable—the list which is published in the Press from time to time—and I have also attended, at the invitation of the Directorate of Publications, an exhibition of publications declared undesirable during the past year or so. As far as publications are concerned which have been found undesirable by reason of being sexually revealing or blasphemous, etc., I suppose one must accept that there will always be some difference of opinion on what norms should be applied, and that the judgment of the committees, and also the appeal board, will always be somewhat more conservative than the public at large may consider necessary.

I should wish, however, to comment in the main on matters banned for political reasons. In this respect I fear that the standards applied by the censorship system are far too conservative, and as a result, indeed oppressive. My concern is that in a country such as ours such an attitude suppresses necessary information and necessary debate, and may in fact be dangerous. We should bear in mind that South Africa is a country which is disastrously divided. Whites and Blacks, Coloureds and Indians are divided, not only by traditional considerations, which are of diminishing importance, but also by the relentless interference of the Government in terms of the Group Areas Act, the separate homelands policy, and a host of other legislative measures designed to keep South Africans of different races apart. As a result our people do not know each other. They do not understand each other to the extent necessary for positive and healthy race relations. They have been denied the opportunity of meeting each other as equals and of learning about each others problems and frustrations.

Against this background the very least that is necessary is that one should be able to gain some perspective of the other man’s feelings and beliefs through the media and by the reading of books, pamphlets, other publications, and even posters. This need, I am afraid, is frustrated by, amongst others, an unduly strict censorship of political material or, as is stated in the Act, material which is considered prejudical to the interests of the State.

I spent some time paging through books and looking at pamphlets, papers, posters, etc., during our visit to the exhibition, and I gained the very strong impression that the South African public was being deprived of reading material which is vitally necessary for their understanding of their own country’s problems. One cannot ignore the fact that political movements enjoying the support of probably the majority of Black people are banned in this country, and that this massive political voice can therefore not be heard. When, on top of that, utterances by trade unionists, church leaders and politicians are suppressed because they appear to be beyond the tolerance of the censors, then we undermine democracy in a way which can only do harm to our future. One need only note that in one of our northern border States, Zimbabwe, Government suppression of information and communication during their 14-year war served only to create a false impression in the minds of the public, and consequently unduly to prolong that war, with tragic results. I believe, and I wish therefore to appeal very strongly, that we should take a new look at the banning of political literature. On the one hand some of that material may not be all that bad or all that harmful, and may even have the effect of creating a better understanding among the White people of the strength of the feeling amongst people of other race groups. On the other hand, if one finds the political views expounded in that literature to be totally abhorrent, and the decision is taken that it should be fought with tooth and nail, then, I believe, it would help if we knew a little bit more about it, and I fear that South Africans in the main know very little about it, and their politicians know even less. I have listened to people, even to the hon. the Prime Minister and the hon. the Minister of Defence, speaking glibly about political theories, etc., of which they clearly—if one has to judge by the way they speak about these things—have a very little understanding.

One of the instances of suppression of vital information was the banning of the report of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference on South West Africa/Namibia. What is the Government so sensitive about? If the report is factual, the public need to know about its contents. Obviously, if it contains matters which are of a classified nature, it is quite another issue. However, nobody has ever claimed that that has been the reason. Therefore it was dealt with by the censors. If it is factual I believe that people have to know its contents. If it contains inaccuracies, the Government can easily counter by means of its massive media structure. One knows that in an open society, in a society in which information flows freely, blatant untruths certainly do not go undetected for very long.

Could you just repeat the title of the publication to which you have just referred?

It is the report on South West Africa/Namibia drawn up by the Catholic Bishops’ Conference.

I personally suspect that the contents of that report are probably embarrassingly true and that that is the reason why it fell foul of the censorship system.

*I also want to mention the debacle—although it has nothing to do with political matters—surrounding the production Master Harold and the Boys, a play by the world-famous South African, Athol Fugard. This production was a roaring success in the USA and, in fact, when it was performed there, came very close to being the production which drew the largest audiences on Broad way. Then a publication committee came along and banned the publication of that play. Explanations followed, inter alia that it was banned because of the strong language used in it, as well as the fact that it had political overtones, etc. Ultimately the amazing explanation was given that the committee which banned it did not know who the author of the play was.

In this regard I want to raise two points of criticism very strongly. In the first place I want to say that the public is entitled to know that the people who are entrusted with publications control—and this definitely includes each person who serves on a publications committee—are well-informed people possessing a good knowledge of literature, of the media and its role and of politics as well. If it were to become apparent that on a specific committee there is not a single member who knows who the writer is of a well-known play with which that particular committee is dealing and that that committee assumes the right to ban such a play, then confidence in the whole system is shaken. In the second place, of course, the fact that it was said that this play would have been treated differently had the committee been aware of the identity of the writer in itself casts a serious reflection, despite its having been added that the finding would not necessarily have been different. The person, status or race or any other personal characteristics of the author, may not be a factor when judging publications, and in this case, unfortunately, the suggestion is that this was in fact the case.

†Finally, Mr. Chairman, I wish to refer to the decision of the hon. the Minister to refer the Kirby production It’s a Boy to the Publications Appeal Board. I want to impress upon the hon. the Minister that there is no better way of discrediting a publications control system than for the Minister himself to participate actively in referring matters to the board or a committee for consideration. The hon. the Minister has already done this on more than one occasion since having taken over this portfolio and, however much the hon. the Minister wishes to cultivate his conservative image as the new Dr. No of the NP in the Transvaal, he must know that in this instance he is entering a minefield of trouble.

You are feeble, Van der Merwe.

I am flattered by that remark, Sir. The decision by the board to ban from that play a scene in which a White woman kisses a Black man represents a dangerous and in my view incorrect interpretation of the provisions of the Publications Act. It was interesting to read the judgment of the appeal Board in this respect. The kissing scene was excised by a majority decision of the board in terms of section 47(2)(d)—hon. members must please note that it was only a majority decision and not a unanimous decision—which deals with situations which are “harmful to the relations between any sections of the inhabitants of the Republic”. By a tortuous line of argument, the majority of board members came to the conclusion that because certain sections of the White and Black public would disapprove of the kissing, the members of each section would then develop a stronger resentment against the members of the other group. The board stated that it “takes cognizance of the provisions of the Mixed Marriages Act and section 16 of the Immorality Act”, notwithstanding the fact that almost every church in South Africa has declared that there is no religious reason for the retention of these laws and also notwithstanding the fact that opinion polls have frequently shown that the majority of South Africans are prepared to let these offensive laws be repealed. We are living in a country where racial prejudices do prevail, but we have to get away from them. Surely, the performing arts have a role to play in this process by portraying such scenes as something normal and as part of an entertaining production. By banning this scene the board recognizes racial prejudices, but then having done so, they cherish those prejudices rather than challenge them.

I cannot see how relations among sections of our population can be improved by creating a protective cocoon for the existence of prejudices among such sections. This amounts in my view to an interpretation of the law which appears at least to be in conflict with its wording. Whatever the legal position may be, this situation must be put right otherwise the censorship system will be a tool of apartheid which we need to get away from even if it does irritate some individuals in our society.

The present position is that the relevant scene has been rewritten to replace the “kissing scene” with a new kissing scene showing a White man kissing a Black man, a novelty that up to now has not been challenged by the board to the best of my knowledge. One wonders how the board’s arguments regarding the acceptability of the scene to sections of the public will find application in this new kissing scene. One wonders even more whether the hon. the Minister feels himself obliged to refer this new scene back to the board. I certainly hope that he would not feel such an obligation and that in future he would stay far away from being involved in this kind of decision and from the operation of the censorship system.

Mr. Chairman, I request the privilege of 10 minutes. [Interjections.]

†If I were to be asked what the hon. member spoke about, I would say that he spoke about 10 minutes. I think the hon. the Minister should rather refer to the remarks made by the hon. member.

*The department over which the hon. the Minister has control, is one of the five largest Government departments. On behalf of those of us on this side, I should like to wish the officials of the department and the hon. the Minister everything of the best with the huge task awaiting the department. If one considers that the department’s budget is the third largest of all Government departments and is only exceeded by those of the Department of Defence and the Department of Cooperation and Development and also that we are referring to a budget of R1 057 million, one realizes how big the department is. The department has 51 000 members of staff and the activities of the department cover the wide field of Coloured development, Coloured education, Indian development, Indian education, population registration, electoral matters, immigration and the permanent settlement of people. When one merely considers that during the past financial year the department dealt with 6 million travellers who entered or left South Africa at the various points of entry, one already realizes the tremendous scope of the activities of the department. We should therefore like to wish the hon. the Minister and his excellent officials everything of the best in the tremendous task which lies ahead.

Last year the Registration of Newspapers Amendment Bill, No. 98 of 1982, was placed on the Statute Book. Since then the hon. the Minister has reached an agreement with the Newspaper Press Union of South Africa and the Conference of Editors to the effect that they will proceed with the establishment of the Media Board and that the Government will not implement the legislation pending the coming into operation of the Media Board. Today I intend to say a few words about the Press. Because I as a politician, like all politicians in this Committee, have a great deal to do with newspapers and newspapers have become a part of one’s daily life, I should like to pay tribute—in the full sense of the word—to and put in a good word for the newspapers in South Africa. A newspaper is a veritable miracle, if one considers what a tremendous amount of work goes into a newspaper, the tremendous amount of information which goes into a newspaper and the amount of trouble it is for the editor, the journalist and everyone involved to get that newspaper onto the street, and we have great appreciation for this. Politicians occupy a specific position in relationship to newspapers. I see that the CP, like the HNP, have declared a vendetta against all the newspapers. [Interjections.] I want to tell the hon. member for Rissik that they can carry on with it if they like. When Mr. Jaap Marais and Dr. Hertzog left the NP, their quarrel with the newspapers ceased and those hon. members opposite will also realize that that kind of quarrel is senseless.

I have said that a newspaper is a miracle. It is a technological marvel. It is a miracle if one considers that every day fresh news has to be presented in a fresh and lively manner in the newspaper by people who have to work under the greatest imaginable pressure owing to the difficulties and the time limit. We want to thank them for this. Although there are many people who think that newspapers are a curse, I believe that if one reads a newspaper as it should be read and uses it as it should be used, it can be an asset to everyone. Every newspaper in South Africa is a living library. The newspapers in South Africa are part of the structure. We cannot remove the newspapers and isolate them because they are central to the political debates of the day. What is more, they are central to the economy of the country. It is via the newspapers, that are themselves business undertakings, that other business undertakings advertise, that the economy is stimulated and that economic activities are generated. People run their businesses and new fashions are disseminated by means of newspapers. For that reason I want to say that for me as a politician the newspaper is a living library. When I think of the in-depth articles our newspapers publish nowadays and their value, I want to suggest here today that people should read more newspapers.

If one looks at the figures, it is astounding to see that in a city like Pretoria with its 315 000 White inhabitants the circulation of the two afternoon newspapers is probably only a little more than 40 000. I maintain that a city like Pretoria is really not doing justice to an instrument of the community that can be very valuable to them. I maintain that teachers should become more involved in making children more reading-conscious. Not only children in our schools, but also young people and adults should make more use of newspapers. I know why the hon. member for Rissik feels so unhappy about newspapers. The specific newspaper they fear, Die Beeld, had an unofficial circulation figure for March of 102 500. This is a large number of newspapers from the point of view of a person who is so sensitive about newspapers. The circulation figure for April was 98 000, and everything indicates that in May Die Beeld will again exceed the 100 000 mark. It is a remarkable achievement for an Afrikaans-language newspaper to sell more than 100 000 copies every day. The same applies to Die Burger here in Cape Town, and it applies even more to the Sunday newspapers.

Unfortunately I do not have the time to elaborate further on the circulation figures of newspapers. I want to conclude this aspect by making a serious appeal to our people, and particularly to our teachers, to make our children more reading-conscious. We are facing very serious times in our country. If I have to adopt a negative tone when speaking about newspapers, I want to say a few words to our English-language newspapers. What happened in Pretoria on Friday should have made everyone in South Africa realize finally and irrevocably that this is not an onslaught on the NP only, but that South Africa is indeed facing a problematical situation. No matter how one defines it, that onslaught is aimed at the system and set on values in which we believe. If the English-language newspapers therefore stand for those things we all say we stand for, if they stand for a free enterprise system, if they stand for a democracy like the NP says it wants to evolve so that every person in this country will eventually be able to have a political say and a specific structure, if they believe in social justice in South Africa which is inherent in the course of NP is following, then I should like to say to the English-language newspapers that a greater responsibility rests on them than on any Afrikaans-language newspaper—the responsibility of the English-language newspapers is 10 times greater—to point out in the days ahead that it is not the NP which is under attack but that South Africa is indeed in a position where we have to aim at getting more and more people on our side. I tell my voters that it is not an R1 rifle, a Mirage or a military weapon that is eventually going to win the battle for us. It is the system, the norms and the values in which we believe and which live in the hearts of all our people which will do this. If it does not live in the hearts of most people and if we do not have allies for our own doctrines and instead of that are comrades for Moscow’s doctrines, then we are following the same course as Israel and one on which we shall not be able to turn back. No one in this House wants us to have to face a future like that of Israel. Not one of us foresees a future of incessant warfare for our children. We shall strike at the terrorists and our enemies and in that regard as well we need the loyalty of our English-language newspapers. They are in a position where they can endlessly bedevil intergroup relations while the NP is in fact doing everything in its power to improve relations. I defy any person, irrespective of the imperfections which exist, to say that it is not our objective on this side of the House to rectify those things in South Africa which we believe should be rectified. It is easy to strive for perfection, but it is far more difficult to live with imperfection.

In conclusion, I want to say to our English-language Press and to our other Pressmen that we appreciate what they are doing, but that they have to help South Africa ensure that in this imperfect situation in which we find ourselves, justice and equity will prevail for our children and those who come after us. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, at the outset I should like to congratulate the hon. the Minister on his appointment as Minister of Internal Affairs. I trust that the hon. the Minister’s custody of this portfolio will be a pleasure to him and that we shall be able to hold pleasant debates.

I also want to congratulate the hon. member for Innesdal who would seem to me to be the new main spokesman on Internal Affairs and the chairman of the study group on Internal Affairs of the NP, on the post being assigned to him. I trust that the hon. member will make a fruitful contribution.

In the third place I again want to congratulate the officials of the Department of Internal Affairs. This is a very important department, although one assumes that under the new dispensation that the hon. the Minister and his Government want to implement, there will also be a change in respect of the Department of Internal Affairs. However, I want to say that as I read the signs of the times, I do not believe that the hon. the Minister and his party will get that far. In a new dispensation in which the CP will govern, it goes without saying that we shall introduce another dispensation.

I want to begin by referring to a few things the hon. member for Innesdal said. He spoke about freedom of the Press. I think that in South Africa and in the rest of the world a great deal has already been written about the freedom of the Press. On a previous occasion the CP adopted a standpoint on how we see freedom of the Press in South Africa. As far as the CP is concerned, we also want to afford freedom to the Press in South Africa in the best and finest sense of the word. We want to maintain this as one of the foundations of democracy.

It has also frequently been said that freedom of the Press obviously entails Press responsibility. I should like to tell the hon. member for Innesdal that once one has been on the Opposition side in South Africa for a while, particularly as far as the Afrikaans-language Press is concerned, and if one kept an eye on the Afrikaans-language Press during the past by-elections, one could say that it is by no means a scientific source.

Does that include Die Patriots

That does not include Die Patriot. [Interjections.] The Afrikaans-language Press, and the National Press in particular, which contributed to driving the old Perskor newspapers out in the north, is probably one of the most unscientific publications one could come across in South Africa. The National Press, and Die Volksblad and Beeld in particular, are the most unscientific newspapers one finds in South Africa. Recently the English-language newspapers in particular have given a far more effective image of the CP than the Afrikaans-language newspapers. [Interjections.] If the Press with its freedom continues to what the Afrikaans Press has been doing, it goes without saying that it will destroy itself. When we talk about maturity in South Africa, I want to say that the reading public has obviously become mature and they do not allow themselves to be led by the nose any longer by the Afrikaans-language Press as they did in the past.

The hon. member for Innesdal is worried about the circulation figures of Afrikaans-language newspapers. I maintain that the Afrikaans-language newspapers are going to suffer a severe blow financially because they no longer tell people the truth. I think there is a need in South Africa among Afrikaans speaking readers for a new Press based on the wonderful principles of the old NP, which can reflect facts objectively, scientifically and neatly. This will still come.

I want to join my namesake, the hon. member for Green Point, in also referring to the control of publications. On page 169 of the annual report of the Department of Internal Affairs the following is stated—

In spite of the criticism voiced by the hon. Member for Green Point in connection with these matters—I can understand this in view of his outlook on life—I want to put in a good word for the system of publication control in South Africa. It is one of the most difficult things to establish certain ethical and aesthetic norms in the world of today, and also in the South Africa of today. Although I personally think that there is a too liberal trend in connection with the publication control nowadays, I can understand what the Directorate of Publications is doing. I have great appreciation for the staff and those persons who assist in bringing out a certain degree of control over a decadent world trend which, in the guise of freedom, is the order of the day in the Western world in particular. I have appreciation and understanding for what the Directorate of Publications is doing. I also appreciate the efforts they make of their own accord.

I want to refer the hon. the Deputy Minister—I believe he deals with this matter—to a speech made by the hon. member for East London North in this debate last year. The hon. the Deputy Minister owes the people working in the Directorate of Publications, as well as his own party which lay the foundation for the Act in terms of which this matter is dealt with, an explanation. Last year the hon. member for East London North had the following to say, inter alia—

He went on to say—

he was referring to Kennis van die Aand—

I want to tell the hon. the Deputy Minister that 1 think he owes it to the principles of the Act, an Act which his party and we, the CP, are jointly responsible for. We had power-sharing in that regard. We were and are jointly responsible for it. I think the hon. member for East London North went too far and I think the hon. the Deputy Minister ought to take very serious steps against the hon. member in this regard.

I now want to return to Internal Affairs and refer a few matters to the hon. the Minister. On page 145 of the annual report under the heading “Population Group Identification” there are a few matters I want to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister. It goes without saying that the CP insists very strongly on the respective peoples in South Africa being identified. In the second place we also insist very strongly that this is a very sensitive matter which has to be dealt with very carefully and neatly. Having said this, I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to page 145 of the annual report where it is stated—

The pens with which these things are written may blot but they cannot blush. I want to tell the hon. the Minister that we on this side of the House get the impression that, particularly as far as this matter is concerned, with the take-over of the Department of Internal Affairs by the more liberal faction in the governing party, particularly under the previous Deputy Minister, Mr. Pen Kotzé, and the present hon. Minister of Constitutional Development… [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, after having listened to the hon. member for Rissik and after his analysis of the objectivity of the English-language Press, I think I have heard everything one could possibly hear in this place. Therefore I shall not follow in his footsteps any further, since I should like to touch on another matter, and that is that during the last parliamentary session, the hon. the Minister announced draft legislation to amend the Electoral Act, and he referred that draft legislation to a Select Committee. The Select Committee completed its work during the parliamentary recess and laid its report upon the Table earlier this year. As far as it was able, the Select Committee tried to effect improvements to the draft Bill within the framework of the draft legislation, but I venture to say today that our Electoral Act nevertheless remains archaic. Because the Electoral Act contains the rules that determine the game, in the past the practice has been that political parties go into a Select Committee unprejudiced, without preconceived ideas. Hence the practice that amendments to the Electoral Act have always been referred to a Select Committee. However, today the position has changed. The hon. member for Rissik will pardon me for saying here today that right at the commencement of the activities of that Select Committee, he stated that he had certain objections in principle, since the draft Bill is comprehensive and also makes provision for the Coloured and Indian voters, whereas he wanted separate provision to be made for this. The result was that it was not possible to involve the hon. member in any further discussions. He is of course, fully entitled to take that course of action. In any case, it was not possible to involve him in any further discussions in the negotiations of the Select Committee. The official Opposition also objected to certain aspects in principle, and they stood by that stubbornly, thereby excluding the possibility of an agreement. However, that is just by the way.

Meanwhile, the Government has announced that a referendum is to be held to test the acceptability or otherwise of the new constitution. Although the Referendums Act differs from the Electoral Act, both are equally archaic and rigid. With a view to the forthcoming referendum, it is essential that we take a new and in-depth look at the Referendums Act try to overhaul our electoral procedure. Today no party in this House can any longer afford, financially or time-wise, to enter a full-scale election, with the enormous demands that makes on all parties, as was the case with the referendum on becoming a Republic. In comparison with the position in other countries, a referendum here is an enormous undertaking, precisely because it has to be fought within the confines of constituencies, and all voters therefore have to be dealt with within that restrictive context. Just consider the enormous organization that is necessary to enable an absent voter to cast his vote by way of a postal or special vote. Consider, too, how one has to rush to get voters who get back from work late to the polls at the last minute just before they close. That is why I believe that we should definitely dispense with the restriction of constituency borders when it comes to referendums. I appeal to the hon. the Minister today to take an in-depth look at our method of holding referendums, particularly in view of the use of the identity documents, the issuing of which has progressed considerably. The whole electoral process will be greatly facilitated if, simply by presenting his identity document or a similar temporary card issued for this purpose, a voter can receive his ballot paper and cast his vote at any polling station in the Republic. The fact that a person in possession of an identity document is now placed on the voters’ roll automatically, even makes it unnecessary to have a voters’ roll on hand at a polling station. For the purposes of party organization, voters’ rolls could still be drawn up on a constituency basis. However, it is obvious that a referendum need not take place on a constituency basis. In this way it is possible to have greater mobility of the electorate without the need for excessive involvement on the point of party organizations.

Now, it could be argued that such a system would lend itself to abuse, for example, that a voter will be able to vote more than once. Sir, the stamp on his identity document or voting card can be supplemented by other measures, which unfortunately I do not have the time to spell out now. In any case, practical control is possible. The fact that a person’s identity number is also his voter’s number makes it possible for a computer to determine whether he has voted more than once. At present our Electoral Act is, I am tempted to say, based on hundreds of prohibitions which make the handling of a single vote an entire operation in itself. The whole spirit of our Electoral Act, as well as the Referendums Act, should be reviewed completely. The existing prohibitions, that are aimed at plugging all loopholes, should rather be replaced by considerably heavier penalties.

A person who wants to vote twice, should simply know that he is exposing himself to a fine of several thousand rand, or even a few months’ imprisonment. I believe this will be a sufficient deterrent, instead of us trying to prevent people from voting twice by way of prohibitions. Furthermore, I am also sure that we would be able to enlist the assistance of the media to announce these restrictions to the public. Because under these circumstances polling stations will no longer have the administrative burden of voters’ rolls, for fewer staff will be needed at each polling station. Therefore the number of polling stations can and must be extended considerably so as to be able to provide better service, particularly in complexes where there are a large number of voters. In this respect I am thinking for example of a building in Pretoria, the Civitas Building, in which hundreds of people are employed, as well as the Sanlam Building in Bellville, and even the Tygerberg Hospital in Parowvallei, and many other examples. This could save political parties enormous sums of money and at the same time make it possible for the voter to cast his vote at the polling station most convenient to him.

All these arrangements to enable voters to vote at any place, mean that the counting of votes will have to take place at central points which, in the nature of things, could not take the borders of constituencies into account. In any case, what would it matter if the result were only announced after a week? As chairman of the Select Committee whose report has now been tabled, I earnestly wish to recommend to the hon. the Minister today not to go ahead with the proposed legislation at this stage. If certain suggestions of mine with regard to referendums are acceptable, they could be incorporated into the Electoral Act, after being tested in practice, particularly as regards replacing prohibitions by extending penalties, which must serve as an effective deterrent.

Order! I regret that the hon. member’s time has expired.

Mr. Chairman, I merely rise to enable the hon. Chief Whip of the NP to continue with his speech.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. chief Whip of the PFP.

An aspect of our system to which we shall in any event have to give serious attention is the period between the date of proclamation and the date of the election which is, I think, a minimum of 56 days at present. We know from experience—and we have just been told that again—that the British go to the polls within a month of calling an election. I believe they have a considerably greater number of voters than we have. I recall that a new State President was elected in Egypt within a month after the assassination of President Anwar Sadat. Our legislation is based on an electoral system that is too centralized. Therefore we shall have to decentralize to a much greater extent in preparing election documents in order to make more rapid elections possible.

We shall also have to reconsider the State’s contribution to elections. In conclusion, I want to summarise by touching briefly on a few aspects. A referendum is primarily an opinion poll, arranged by the State, without any legal consequences. Let us simplify the process now, with slight amendments to the Referendums Act, and streamline it in such a way that it can serve as a guideline for a new Electoral Act, when we have gained the necessary experience in respect of referendums.

We wish the hon. the Minister every success, should he want to risk taking this step.

Mr. Chairman, by way of brief reaction to what the hon. member for Tygervallei was saying, I would point out that it sounds very good indeed. However, I rather fear that with our systems that have applied in South Africa, and with the lack of proper identity documents and standard identity documents throughout the whole of South Africa, this might present a great number of difficulties, that is why I think that, certainly before one can give serious consideration to this, this matter should be referred back to a Select Committee, and, may I suggest, the real answer would be to reopen Select Committee proceedings on the Electoral Act in order to have a closer look at this alteration to the vote casting system. I think we would be rather loath in view of the trouble that people already have in regard to their identity documents, to support this concept as it stands. It is certainly an ideal. I cannot fault the concept but I believe that it just would not work and would lay itself open to abuse unless it were handled very, very carefully indeed.

I should just like to touch upon the point that was made by certain other hon. members, particularly the hon. member for Green Point, in respect of censorship. I am of the opinion that to some extent in respect of many of the documents that are censored, he has a point. When it comes to the question of salacious muck and rubbish I am in full agreement that it should be censored as strictly as possible. I happen to have been brought up in a society that was considered in its time to be terribly prudish. Quite frankly, I am very pleased that I was brought up in that society. However, when it comes to a lot of the, shall we say, political stuff that is censored these days, I cannot help but feel that we are doing our public something of a disservice. I say this because if we do not let the public know what the alternatives are we shall be building up horrible shocks for them in the future. As has already been indicated, this was what happened in Zimbabwe. By all means let all literature advocating mayhem and violence be suppressed. Of course that type of literature has to be censored and items of that nature cut out altogether. However, genuine political thinking, genuine opinions should, I believe, be rather more freely available than is the situation at present. I want to indicate, therefore, that as far as I am concerned, I would support that attitude. Incidentally, I want to say that I am sorry that I did not have the opportunity of going across to the exposition that was held of this material because I was otherwise engaged. However, I do apologize for not having gone.

This budget vote may be the last one of its type as far as this Ministry is concerned because it would seem to me that the way things are going a large number of the activities presently handled by this department are going to be removed and placed under other spheres of control. I refer particularly to Indian and Coloured affairs. Once we have an Indian and a Coloured House in this Parliament, assuming that they are going to come into being, I hardly imagine that these matters will be dealt with by the hon. the Minister of Internal Affairs. They will in all probability be handled by the particular Minister for the particular group. Similarly, in consequence of a Bill that was introduced recently in respect of local government, I rather suspect that local government activities are going to be wholly removed from the control of this department as well. Obviously I do not propose to speak on this particular Bill but I should like to say in passing that I am somewhat alarmed at the contents of that Bill and cannot help but feel that it is going to cause a few problems.

Furthermore, provincial matters are also being dealt with by this department. In spite of the provisions of the proposed new constitution Bill to the effect that provincial administrations are not going to be affected by that legislation, as a consequence of other literature and legislation that has come to hand I am by no means as sure as I was that that is in fact going to be the case. Having had to involve myself with this department over a period of many years in respect of provincial affairs, I am a little perturbed that these matters are also going to be re-allocated. Nonetheless, it will still leave quite a fair amount of work for this particular department to handle.

I should like to say that it is somewhat gratyfying to find that the staff situation in the department appears to have improved substantially in all spheres, White, Coloured and Indian, but particularly in the White sphere where staff shortages last year reached a figure of 28,5% which figure has now dropped to 13,4%. Obviously this is still not satisfactory because presumably if one has a staff establishment, one needs that staff establishment to do the job. Quite obviously also they do need it because there are many, many complaints emanating from the activities of that department because of the slowness of getting documentation through in respect of identity documents, immigration matters and matters of a similar nature.

I should like to suggest that the action that has been taken has been to try to look after the salary aspect. I wonder if that is really the answer to the problem. I know salaries are important and that nobody wants to work for less money that he can reasonably five on, but I wonder if there is not an element lacking in job satisfaction which is causing a great deal of movement out of the department.

Again for a country which is poised somewhere between the First and the Third World I wonder if our systems are not oversophisticated and that we have too much which is requiring too many of too high standard of education to be able to run the system. This again is a problem because if this is so, if we have so much computerized work being performed by this department—I know it is very largely computerized because I have been around the computer systems and so forth—then we must also bear in mind that we are short of this type of personnel in South Africa. If we are going to continue computerizing more and more in this department, obviously we are going to get less and less people available to do this work because commerce and industry are drawing these people away since they are in a position to pay better than a State department.

Again we have a fairly substantial population in all communities who do not have the very high standard required to be computer programmers, but they have the standard to be able to do reasonable clerical work on a manual basis. Perhaps we should give thought to putting a certain amount of the work which is being inadequately done by computers into manual operation again. After all said and done, South Africa operated for many years with a manual system. I am certainly not suggesting that we revert totally to manual operation—we could not; we have got beyond it—but I cannot help but feel that a certain amount of what is being done could in fact be manually operated and would thus save us quite a number of posts of the highly skilled and highly technical variety for which we just cannot get people.

I may add just one other thing. The main object of computerization is speed and accuracy and I fear that with the lack of staff, perhaps the inadequate training of many of them, the computers are not as effective as they might be. There is a saying with computers that if one feeds junk in, one gets junk out. This I think is one of the reasons why the department is having as much trouble as it has in this particular field.

Mr. Chairman, during the years he has been in this House, the hon. member for Umbilo has commanded respect as a person who has a very moderate approach. While we are on the subject of immigration, I want to tell the hon. member that he is a very good product of immigration to South Africa.

†I have one problem with one of the remarks made by the hon. member. Here I refer to something which he said in regard to the Publications Control Board. I cannot agree with him that one must allow blatant Marxist propaganda under the cloak of moderation. The hon. member said that he could not make the visit to the Publications Control Board and perhaps it would be advisable for him to pop around to that office some time to go and have a look at the type of publication that is under discussion.

*The hon. member for Rissik made a remark here which one cannot allow to pass without comment. In the first place, he attacked the Afrikaans-language Press and accused it of unscientific research.

You always used to do that.

Then the hon. member had the temerity to exclude Die Patriot from these remarks which he was directing at the Afrikaans newspapers. If Die Patriot is his criterion, I question his judgment as far as his remarks are concerned.

Then the hon. member made a remark about section 146 dealing with the identification of population groups. I want to agree with him at once; the basic premise of this side of the House is that it is necessary to have race classification on the Statute Book, that it is necessary, but that it is also a very sensitive matter which has to be dealt with. However, the hon. member levelled the charge at this side of the House that when it came to applications for reclassification, a more liberal approach was being followed. After all, that hon. member also has the right to apply for reclassification. Any citizen in South Africa has the right to apply for reclassification. While demanding that privilege for himself, however, that hon. member wants to withhold it from other citizens of South Africa. I want to ask him: Are all citizens in South Africa not entitled to apply for the reclassification if they qualify for it? We can no longer afford that kind of racism in South Africa.

I wish to come to another matter. In the first place, I should like to say that we on this side of the House greatly appreciate the way in which this department is being handled by the hon. the Minister and, of course, by the hon. the Deputy Minister, Mr. Piet Badenhorst. In addition, of course, we greatly appreciate the work done by the department and its staff. In particular, we want to convey our thanks for this comprehensive annual report they have made available to us.

The activities of the Department of Internal Affairs affect every citizen from the cradle to the grave, and it is absolutely essential that the service motive should be given priority in this department. Fortunately, this is also the approach of the hon. the Minister and the hon. the Deputy Minister. I just want to mention a few matters concerning identity documents. In a way, the hon. member for Umbilo also touched on these matters. Let us admit quite frankly this afternoon that there is considerable frustration with regard to the composition of the population register and the issuing of identity documents. The question is: What do we need? We need a population register which will include all citizens resident in the Republic of South Africa. Every person who lives in this country must be ethnically classified and each one must receive a number which appears in his identity document. Furthermore, we need a co-ordinated register in South Africa in respect of the registration of the population, births, marriages, deaths and the compilation of the voters’ roll. There should also be a register of addresses which should be kept up to date and on the basis of which voters’ rolls can be compiled. The question we must ask one another is how successful this process has proved to be. I think it probably sounds much easier to many people to provide for this than it proves to be in practice. Without detracting from the commendable attempts that have been made by all concerned over a number of years, I do want to say that I think we have in some respects been a little too ambitious with a system which because of certain problem areas, certain realities, cannot be implemented as successfully as we would like it to be. In particular, this department which is responsible for it will have to investigate this matter very thoroughly. There are certain problem areas, and we must ask ourselves what the position is.

The department receives approximately 50 000 applications every month for the issuing and re-issuing of identity documents. At the moment there are approximately 300 000 incomplete applications which have not yet been finalized. In connection with some of these applications, inquiries are received every day. In other cases, attempts are being made to trace the applicant because he has changed his address and the department cannot find him. There is a constant flow of inquiries to the department.

However, there are some fundamental problems. The first of these is the failure of the public to provide the department with full particulars. Applications are not carefully completed, substantiating documents are not submitted, photographs are not included and the department tells me that it sometimes happens that a person who did not include his photographs subsequently puts them in an envelope and simply sends them to the department without saying whose photographs they are and to which documents they belong. The handwriting on some of the applications is illegible, while inquiries do not always correspond with the original application. A lady may get married and make inquiries under her married surname instead of using her maiden name, under which she originally applied. All these delays give rise to frustrations on the part of the department and of the public.

The staff situation, too, gives cause for concern, and due to a staff shortage—we know that this is something which we cannot hide from one another, because all Government departments experience a staff shortage—the department is forced to appoint temporary and part-time staff. This leads to a lack of experience and a lack of trained staff. The department can apparently handle the normal flow of applications, but when it comes to a problem situation, inexperienced people cannot always identify and deal with the problem.

Very interesting statistics made available to me indicate that up to 30 June 1982, 6 783 917 Whites, Coloureds and Asians had been entered in the population register, while 6 419 999 of these were provided with identity documents. It is estimated that there are approximately 1 million people over the age of 15 years to whom identity documents have not yet been issued. The problem in this connection is that most of these people are members of the Coloured and Asian population groups. The department tells us that as far as the Whites are concerned, the population register is reasonably up to date. Only last year, 176 238 new applications from people aged 16 years and older were entered in the population register. During the same year, 4 000 people below the age of 16 years were entered, while 168 000 births were registered. Of these, and this is a shocking figure, 11 504 were re-registrations in respect of illegitimate children whose parents were married after they had been bom. The population register shows that more than 80 000 marriages took place, while there were 76 000 deaths. One could go on in this way, and then one realizes that the population register requires an enormous amount of administration.

There is one thing I should like to advocate, and that is that we should make a purposeful attempt to render assistance. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether we should perhaps consider introducing the microfiche system, which has been made available for the voters’ rolls, to be used by the department. I want to suggest that we should make a purposeful attempt to introduce computer terminals at regional offices as soon as possible, so that the department may be brought closer to the public. Then if someone has a problem, he can walk into an office and a computer can be used to ascertain what the position is, so that his problem can be solved at once.

In the same way, one could discuss other activities and request the attention of the department. Those aspects will be dealt with by some of my colleagues. However, I believe we can say that the department and the hon. the Minister are doing excellent work under very difficult circumstances. I look forward to the day—and so, I am sure, do all hon. members—when we shall be able to put the population register to productive use, especially with regard to the compilation of voters’ rolls.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Tygervallei made some suggestions today in relation to electoral matters that have widespread ramifications. One can agree with some of the things, but some of them we have very serious reservations and objections about. Naturally enough, if they were taken to a Select Committee, it would be worth looking at all those things to see what the effect will be.

In the light of some previous debates this year I was astonished at the about turn of the hon. Chief Whip of the Government in asking that the Bill approved by hon. members of his party in a Select Committee should not be proceeded with. I think he should have a word with the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs as to what value can be put to a document which he signs.

I qualified that.

Very wisely the Government has realized that it would be rather foolish for it to hold a referendum in the near future. This could well be a way of postponing the date of the referendum.

I also want to speak on electoral matters, on one matter in particular. Last year we vigorously opposed certain clauses of the Elections Amendment Bill. This year that Act was used indiscriminately to alter substantially the voters’ rolls in the by-election constituencies, alterations which could well have affected the outcome in a very close election.

I believe it is a most unsatisfactory state of affairs and that the assurances given by the hon. the Deputy Minister last year have proved to be misleading. I will quote that in a moment. I also believe that the department overestimated its capabilities to adjust the voters’ rolls accurately, and that further there are no adequate checks available as to what is going on.

I should like to illustrate this by way of the by-election in Waterkloof, for which I have the details. The voters’ lists as at the end of January 1983 were supplemented by the addition of 2 527 voters from the population register. Last year we argued that the population register was often more out of date than the voters’ roll and that one should not adjust a voters’ roll on a hit-and-miss basis. The hon. the Deputy Minister, however, assured us (Hansard, Volume 101, col. 9457)—

On 13 April this year I asked the hon. the Minister whether the Chief Electoral Officer took any steps to ascertain whether the voters still resided at the addresses given in the population register. The answer was “no”. It was followed by an explanation. The assurance given by the hon. the Deputy Minister was therefore disregarded.

We also argued against transferring voters on this basis. Again the hon. the Deputy Minister assured us (Hansard, Volume 101, col. 9457)—

Again I asked a question on 13 April whether written confirmation was obtained from each voter in respect of his correct ordinary place of residence before his name was added, deleted or transferred. Again the answer was “no”. It was not done. I think that is most unsatisfactory. I wish to look at the effect of this in the case of the Waterkloof by-election.

Firstly, out of the blue 2 527 voters, something like 15% extra, were added to the voters’ roll. The electoral office, in its attempt to do all this, got itself so muddled up that its figures did not reconcile and subsequently had to remove 800 names from the roll on an ad hoc basis without the parties getting the usual information in relation to those voters. Thirdly, hundreds of people, an estimated 700, who did not live in the constituency were added to the voters’ roll. These included people who had moved or emigrated more than five years previously. At least half a dozen deceased people were added to the voters’ roll on this basis, some of who had died many years ago. Some people who were on the population register and who were living in Waterkloof were not put on the roll.

I will give some examples. Voter No. 9034 was brought onto the voters’ roll although the person concerned had left permanently for Australia in October 1977 and has not been back since. This person was also not on the voters’ roll in the 1981 election. A person living in Delmas was brought onto the Waterkloof voters’ roll on a basis of information in the population register although the voter registration card was more recent. Thirdly, a person who had lived in Waterkloof for years and had an identity document for more than a year, was not brought onto the roll. Four voters, namely Nos. 8314, 8431, 8432 and 18086 were not on the 1977 roll, nor were they on the 1981 roll. They had moved out of the area 11 to 17 years previously, but still they were brought onto the roll for the by-election. Voter No. 9441 was not on the 1977 roll; nor on the 1981 roll, and was in fact deceased, but was brought onto the roll in 1983 for the by-election. And so one could go on and on.

It all adds up to a mighty mess. The hon. the Deputy Minister is responsible for bulldozing that Bill through this House at 06h30 on that final and ridiculous Saturday morning of last session. He is also responsible for the fact that the assurances that he gave to the Opposition have not been kept.

There is an additional highly unsatisfactory aspect of this dubious practice. There is no practical way for any political party to check whether malpractice has occurred or not and whether the transfers have been done accurately. This is totally unacceptable and runs counter to fair electoral practice.

Finally, there is the fact that long delays occur—the hon. member for Turffontein has referred to this—and currently on average there is a 19-month backlog in the issuing of identity documents. This can result in some people being prejudiced by these procedures.

In the light of, firstly, the acknowledged severe staff shortages in the department; secondly, the failure of the hon. the Deputy Minister to enforce the assurances that he gave last year; thirdly, the chaotic state of the supplementary voters’ list issued in Waterkloof and probably elsewhere too; fourthly, the enfranchisement of hundreds of unqualified voters in Waterkloof and, fifthly, the inherently unsatisfactory nature of a system that cannot be checked, I call upon the hon. the Minister to have section 4 of the Elections Amendment Act, No. 104 of 1982, repealed before the end of this session and before any further damage is done in this regard.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens was full of criticism about the state of our voters’ rolls, but I want to assure him that we in this country have a great deal to be grateful for. I think he should show a little understanding for the problems that still exist at present. However, as soon as these problems have been overcome, we will be able to look forward to voters’ rolls which are far more up to date than at present.

Each time the British Prime Minister announces a general election, people ask: How is it possible that four weeks after an election is announced in that country, that election can be held? The people compare it with the situation here, where elections usually span a period of two months or more. This is the case at present as well. As we are all aware, Mrs. Thatcher announced a general election in Great Britain on 9 May, and voting day is exactly one month later, viz. on 9 June. The hon. member for Tygervallei also pointed out in his speech earlier this afternoon that the British are able to dispose of an election so promptly. Allow me to tell hon. members that if Mrs. Thatcher had so desired, she could have disposed of the election even more rapidly than within four weeks. In terms of the British Electoral Act, candidates have to be nominated within eight days from the time of proclamation, and polling day is the ninth day after nominations have closed. Therefore, an election can officially be held within 17 or 18 days in Britain. In South Africa the shortest period between proclamation and nomination day is 21 days, and the shortest period between nomination day and voting day is 35 days: A total, therefore, of eight weeks in all. Now compare this with the 17 or 18 days in Britain.

A number of years ago, the Head Council of the Cape NP sent a former member of this House, Mr. Piet Marais, and myself to Great Britain to go and see how the English conduct elections. That was in 1970. Hon. members will recall that those were the elections when Mr. Ted Heath’s Conservative Party beat Mr. Harold Wilson’s Labour Party. I must say at the outset that we learnt a great deal from the English. As a matter of fact, some of our observations, which we passed on to our Government, in the form of recommendations, were in our Electoral Act. Allow me to mention only two examples of this. The first is that the party affiliation of candidates is mentioned on the ballot papers. The second is the voting card the department sends to each voter shortly before election day bearing each voter’s number. However, to come back to the question of how the English are able to dispose of a general election so promptly, I want to say that that is one of the aspects we went to look at in 1970. The reply to this question lies, firstly, in the early availability of their voters’ rolls, and consequently the fact that political parties there can start working on an election much sooner than parties here in South Africa. In Britain there are no interim or supplementary registrations. They have a general registration on 10 October, and after a short time during which corrections can be made, their voters’ rolls come into operation on 15 February the following year and remain valid for a full 12 months. Copies of the list are made available immediately, and our impression was that the British political parties begin working immediately by making a survey of the electorate, and at the same time, arranging for postal votes—take note—regardless of whether or not an election is expected. Furthermore, matters are facilitated for them to a considerable extent in the sense that the names of voters appear on the voters’ roll, not in alphabetical sequence, but according to residential addresses. The voters’ roll can simultaneously serve as a street list which can assist them in house-to-house canvassing.

As regards dealing with postal votes, in Britain there is no commencement date on which postal votes have to be submitted. As soon as the voters’ roll comes into operation on 15 February, applications for postal votes may be submitted to the electoral officer. It is not necessary to wait until a general election is announced. Once one’s name has appeared on the list of postal votes, one is automatically eligible for a postal vote, even if more than one election takes place in the course of the year. Therefore it should be clear to hon. members that by the time a general election is announced in Britain, the parties have already disposed of much of their work. A further interesting difference as regards dealing with postal votes is that the parties do not deal with postal votes themselves. They do canvass for applications, but they do not deal with the postal votes themselves. The postal vote is sent directly to the voter; he makes his cross and posts it back himself. Therefore the British do not deem it necessary for a voter to vote in the presence of a presiding officer. This could lead to the conclusion that the British do not really guard very stringently against malpractices. On the other hand, it is true that they impose very heavy penalties for offences.

Time does not permit me to go into all aspects of the British electoral system. I might just mention by way of summary that the British electoral system is decentralized into small and easily manageable units; that the British voter is kept very thoroughly up to date by the State concerning matters pertaining to the election, such as, for example, the arrangements for election day, and also the aspects I have already mentioned, inter alia, the early availability of voters’ rolls, which enables parties to dispose of most of their work well in advance.

We understand the problems that are being experienced with the issuing of identity documents in this country. However, we trust that these problems will soon be overcome so that the central address register can be kept up to date effectively. We also look forward to the day our voters’ rolls will be drawn up using only the central address registers. Then the department will be able to submit to the parties voters’ rolls which are as up to date as possible.

I have discussed the British electoral system at length. However, that does not mean that I approve of everything we saw there. For example, the fact remains that if one does not update one’s voters’ rolls each month, very soon one is saddled with an outdated voters’ roll. Therefore hon. members can imagine how outdated the British lists must be after, say, the tenth or eleventh month. Yet we should not close our eyes to the possibility of improvements in our own system. For example, my plea is that we should continue to keep our eyes open for improvements which could be effected to streamline our election procedure. Therefore I welcome the plea made here today by the hon. member for Tygervallei, viz. that in future we should take an in-depth look at our electoral system.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just resumed his seat spoke about electoral procedure, and I should like to link up with what he had to say. He is an authority in this field. In listening to him and to the hon. member for Tygervallei, one might get the feeling that there is an election in the offing, and that is something which makes me a little anxious, because Walvis Bay has just recently had an election. It is for this very reason why I should like to extend a word of thanks today to the Department of Internal Affairs, to the hon. the Minister and all the officials involved with the department. The hon. member for Turffontein pointed out that this is indeed a department that controls our lives from the cradle to the grave. Both births and deaths must be registered with the department. After one’s birth has been registered, one gets one’s first little book of life; thereafter one’s driver’s licence; then one’s marriage certificate and then, on a broader front, emigration and immigration papers, election documents, passports, etc. Just to make the task even more extensive, Coloured and Indian Affairs were also entrusted to the department. Because there is no department of White affairs, all functions not specifically allocated to other departments are also dealt with by this department.

That is how Walvis Bay also became the responsibility of this department. As far as that is concerned, we want to thank the hon. the Minister and his predecessor very sincerely for what they have done to link Walvis Bay up again with its mother country, or let me rather say the Cape. Hon. members know that the 55 years Walvis Bay was administered by South West Africa at local and provincial level. All the capital needs of the municipality of Walvis Bay were provided by the South West Africa Administration. Since 1 September 1977 Walvis Bay has administratively once more been part of the Cape. For a while Walvis Bay was part of the Namaqualand constituency, and for a while after that part of the Green Point constituency. This transitional period was a very difficult one for Walvis Bay, further aggravated as it was by two important factors. Firstly there was the slump in the fishing industry and, secondly, the political uncertainty in South West Africa that washed over into Walvis Bay. In the throes of all this the Administrator and the Cape Executive Committee helped settle the problems, and thanks to a competent town clerk and his staff, the town council of Walvis Bay was able to bridge one of the most difficult periods in the history of its existence. In July 1980 the Government of the Republic realized that things simply would not run smoothly in Walvis Bay and therefore appointed a senior official of the Department of Internal Affairs as director of Walvis Bay so as to facilitate liaison and to make the administration more efficient and more streamlined. Mr. Vosloo occupied this post up to the end of September 1982. Let me, on behalf of Walvis Bay, extend our sincere thanks to this competent official and his wife.

The Government also opened a special account for Walvis Bay, because Walvis Bay was cut off from the source from which it could obtain loans for capital and other works, having been completely orphaned. That is why the hon. the Minister of Finance created a special account for Walvis Bay. This account was also placed under the control of the Department of Internal Affairs. The regional development advisory committee of Walvis Bay also functioned under the chairmanship of a senior official of the Department of Internal Affairs.

A factual investigation, conducted locally by the previous Minister of Internal Affairs, now the hon. the Minister of Constitutional Development and Planning, eventually led to the Government finally deciding to make Walvis Bay a separate constituency. You can therefore see, Mr. Chairman, that this department has been very closely involved with the linking up of Walvis Bay to the Republic of South Africa and the liaison between them. I should therefore also like to take this opportunity—since Walvis Bay now falls, on the one hand, under the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning and, on the other hand, under the Cape Provincial Administration, and therefore no longer under the Department of Internal Affairs—of extending a particular word of thanks to this hon. Minister. I can give hon. members the assurance that only someone who lives in Walvis Bay, only someone who knows the loneliness, the isolation far from his mother country, know what it means to such a community when the Government reaches out a hand to them. We therefore thank the hon. the Minister very sincerely. He has helped to restore the confidence of the people of Walvis Bay and has helped Walvis Bay to assume its rightful place in the scheme of things.

How about a little fishing there in Walvis Bay?

There are indeed fish to be caught; lovely fish. So there is a standing invitation to anyone who would like to come and see how we live and work there.

The department’s annual report is a bulky and informative one, a report on which I should also like to congratulate the department. The reader of this report is struck by the extensive activities of this department, a department functioning on three structural levels, that of Internal Affairs and Coloured and Indian Affairs, and also that of the Commission for Administration. Each of the first two branches has a Deputy Director General at the head, the latter branch having a Chief Director. This is one of the big Government departments of the Republic of South Africa, covering as it does a very wide field. It is therefore informative to just look at the very short summary of the functions of this department given in the annual report. I just want to mention a few to the Committee. Some of them have already been dealt with by other hon. members. Pardon me, therefore, Mr. Chairman, if I repeat any of them.

The department has a staff establishment of about 51 000 people. About 6 million aliens and travellers entering and leaving the country each year are dealt with by this department. During 1981-’82 the department issued 42 000 permits to immigrants for permanent residence in the country. During the financial year 1982-’83 this figure is expected to increase still further. The department has recorded 6 800 000 marriages, granted permission for 11 girls under the age of 15 years to marry, whilst permission to marry was refused in seven similar cases.

More than 2 500 Indian and Coloured schools are maintained by the department, schools in which more than 1 million pupils are taught by about 4 000 teachers. Agricultural promotion has, amongst other things, led to the planting of the largest date plantation in the southern hemisphere. This is an achievement on which this department must also be congratulated. I also think it would probably be very pleasant to visit this plantation some time or other.

The training ship RSA is used by the department for the training of seamen. The Publications Board, which also falls under this department, does a tremendous job, and in this connection I should like to congratulate the Director of Publications and his staff on the good work they are doing. We recently had an opportunity of viewing their work and seeing what they are doing. We were shocked to see what there was in circulation in South Africa. We therefore look forward to the day when the Indecent or Obscene Photographic Matter Amendment Bill is passed by this House, because this would strengthen the hand of the Director of Publications. Here we are dealing with a trend that manifests itself world-wide. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to thank the hon. member for Walvis Bay for his invitation to all hon. members to visit him in Walvis Bay. We would also like to have a cup of coffee with him. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Cape Town Gardens made some alarming remarks about voters who had emigrated and deceased voters whose names had subsequently been placed on the voters’ roll. I think that is certainly something the hon. the Minister or the hon. the Deputy Minister will react to, since it is the kind of matter that needs to be explained.

The hon. member for Tygervallei pointed to the streamlining of the electoral procedures. We agree with him. When we get to that stage, however, we would just like to take a very searching look at his proposals in this connection.

I listened with rapt attention to the speech of the hon. member Mr. Kritzinger. It was a very interesting speech by someone who obviously knows a great deal about his subject, a person who visited England during the general election of 1970. I learned a great deal from his speech.

At the present moment there are six Van der Merwes in this House. [Interjections.] Oh, seven? Three of them are, of course, members of the right party, whilst the others are a bit scattered. Politically we might differ from one another, but some of us … [Interjections.] … just try to be funny, like that hon. member, with his few lanky hairs, who is trying to crack a joke over there. We Van der Merwes may disagree with one another, but loyalty to our fatherland binds us together. The first Van der Merwe who immigrated to South Africa, was here as far back as Van Riebeeck’s time. The forefathers of all we Van der Merwes were therefore immigrants. Today the Whites in our fatherland are composed of a colourful diversity of people originating from Holland, Britain, France, Germany, Portugal and other countries. Loyalty to our fatherland binds all these people together as a united White group here in South Africa.

Today I want to take up the cudgels here for those of our presentday immigrants who have not as yet, with the passage of the decades—unlike us—had the national flag burnt into their souls by the warm southern sun, thus making them completely one with it, those people who still secretly cherish ties with another fatherland.

Here I am again speaking of our immigrants and, in particular, one of the largest single groups of immigrants, the Portuguese. In actual fact, we find ourselves continually astonished at our immigrants, at their strange language, their strange customs, their strange food and the strangeness of their culture and religion. We know vaguely that the Portuguese have a club somewhere around here, as do the Italians, and that the Germans have a club in Pretoria where one can eat bratwurst and drink München beer.

Secretively, however, one agrees with one’s friends. The dark-eyed Portuguese señoritas, the port wine and the “musica de fados” are unique. [Interjections.]

We easily gain the impression that our immigrants practise apartheid. They do not spontaneously mix with the local groups. They form groups. Sometimes we reproach them by saying they simply live off the fat of the land, but do not want to share the responsibilities of citizenship and military service. We reproach them by saying that at the first rattle of AK-47 fire one would just see the vegetables flying as the whole bunch of them dashed back to the señoritas, their wine and their “fados” in Lisbon.

I am thankful for the privilege of being an official “amigo” of the Portuguese community of South Africa. I regard it as a special honour, and in this Committee today I want to say clearly that I love my Portuguese friends and am proud of them.

I therefore want to lodge a plea today for more understanding of our immigrants. I want to do so from a unique point of view, that of our own Afrikaners who have formed an immigrant community in Argentina as the Portuguese, for example, have done in South Africa.

It was my agreeable privilege, in November last year, to pay a visit to our Afrikaners in the southern part of Argentina. For four days I was the guest of those Afrikaners living there. For four days I listened to their beautiful Afrikaans as I was daily swept along by their hospitality. I do, however, want to issue a warning to anyone who wants to visit them: Be careful you do not suffer the same fate that I suffered. They almost completely debilitated me with food, wine and Boer hospitality. There I sang Afrikaans songs until I had almost no voice left. That was an experience I would exchange for few others.

Those people have been there for almost 80 years now and they still form an individual group. For those who might be interested, I just want to say that their Afrikaans is still the Afrikaans we know today. One would perhaps think that because they have been absent from these shores for 80 years, they would perhaps speak a bit differently. I therefore made a point of trying to trace a few deviations, though there were few. For example, they say “poort” for “hawe”; they say “aeroplane-stasie” for “lughawe”. They say “hy het die motor omgedraai” instead of hy het die motor omgegooi”. They say “baie tye gelede” instead of “lank al”. They say “attak” for “aanval”; “karbon” for “steenkool”; for a Black person they say “tata”; and in a very affectionate way they weave the words “oupa” and “ouma” into Spanish.

Of those who were born here, there are still 10 or 12 left, but the important point about them is that even today, after 80 years, they have launched a drive to collect money to build a club there for those who are Afrikaans.

We need our immigrants; that is the very reason why they are here. They need us. Today, more than ever, South Africa needs sound human relations, also amongst the Whites.

There are an estimated 700 000 Portuguese in South Africa; one out of every seven Whites. As things stand, there are not many of them left in the vegetable trade. It is estimated that only about 15% of my Portuguese friends sell vegetables. Today the Portuguese proudly take their places in commerce, education, medicine, banking and virtually every important level of our community, with particular emphasis on the Defence Force. In every military unit one finds a Costa, a Da Silva or a Ferreira.

Let us extend an arm of friendship to our immigrants. Let us try to understand them better. Above all, let us have normal relations with our immigrants, absorb them normally into our way of life. By cultivating better human relations with our immigrants, we Whites would stand a better chance of surviving in our fatherland. Let us follow the example of our imigrants to Argentina, where they organize themselves in exactly the same way as do immigrants to South Africa, and have more patience and understanding when dealing with our immigrants in South Africa.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Jeppe has undergone a complete metamorphosis. [Interjections.] Today he again spoke like a true Van der Merwe. I want to congratulate him on his speech, particularly his reference to the Portuguese who play a significant role in both his and my constituencies and in the southern parts of Johannesburg. For that very reason the NG Church has sent a minister, ds. Pienaar, to Portugal on a permanent basis. It is therefore important for us to refer to them.

What I now want to refer to, however, is a deadly, crafty, invisible enemy which is not always recognizable, but which treacherously launches a wide-ranging attack on our population, mercilessly digging its claws chiefly into our youth, who then struggle to free themselves from its cruel stranglehold.

The terror to which I am referring creeps up on us by way of so-called innocuous objects and the media which, by word and image, has raised the onslaught, aimed at undermining the moral fibre of thousands of people, to a fine art.

I want to refer hon. members to certain articles entering the country and the control of publications in the country. It is sometimes said that not enough is being done by the department in this sphere. I would, however, like to quote figures for the period January to 22 April 1983, not even a full four months. In that period 259 out of 483 publications were banned; 13 out of 46 magazines were banned; 7 out of 9 posters, those large posters which are very objectionable, were banned; 9 out of 16 pamphlets were banned; 24 out of 27 calendars—yes, well, they are terrible things—were banned; 11 out of a total of 11 stickers were banned; 12 out of 26 grammophone records were banned; 4 out of 10 greetings cards were banned; 43 out of 46 photographs were banned; there was 1 T-shirt and that was banned; 8 out of a total of 8 liquor glasses banned; there was one set of darts and that was banned; 20 our of a total of 20 key rings were banned; and there was onle little pendant, and that was banned.

Did you see it?

Wait now, that is not what it is all about. It is simply a matter of the numbers that were banned. 10 badges out of a total of 10 were banned and 7 objects out of a total of 7 were banned. During the period from January to 22 April 1983 451 films were submitted, of which 260 were approved unconditionally and 150 conditionally, with 41 being banned.

I also want to refer to the objectionable and vulgar presentations one chiefly encounters in the entertainment world, i.e. video and cinematic films. Blue films are marketed under innocent-sounding names after having been brought into the country illegally. We are grateful for what the hon. the Minister, the hon. the Deputy Minister, the Government, the department and its staff are doing to exercise control over publications and articles of that nature. They serve as our first line of deterrence to prevent these objectionable offerings from so mercilessly creeping up on us.

Here I want to refer, in particular, to the hon. the Deputy Minister, P. J. Badenhorst, who, for 16 years, wielded the shepherd’s crook over various congregations. For three years now he has been giving sympathetic attention to this matter of supervision and control. He came from the pulpit and I think that he now has a wide field to cover. Neither the State, the hon. the Deputy Minister or his competent officials are in a position to avert the onslaught, however, if they do not have the co-operation of our educationists, if they do not have the co-operation of the church, our teachers and parents.

Today I want to single out the responsibility that the family, in particular, has. How does one ward off an onslaught if parents themselves are guilty of purchasing these blue films and showing them, so I have heard, while children are peeping round the corners? The next day the children then tell their teachers what they have seen the previous evening. It is specifically this problem that we must counteract today. It has been proved that 70% of video recordings are illegal and that the shops hiring out these video films are party to these corrupt practices. Fortunately steps are being taken in South Africa at present to curb this large-scale piracy. The first congress at which the practical and commercial aspects of this burgeoning corrupt video practice will be discussed is, indeed, taking place in Johannesburg today.

The constitution is worse.

We shall be getting round to the constitution too.

These video recordings enter the country under innocuous titles such as “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs”. One thinks they are fairy stories, whilst in actual fact the most terrible things imaginable unfold before one’s eyes. It is these vulgarities that pollute the spirit of our people.

Films are subject to the approval of committees which must exercise control. It is these committees that must ensure that people under 21, even married couples, do not watch these films. The police must ensure that the law is complied with. It is parents, in particular, who must ensure that their children of 16 years and younger do not go to places where these films are shown. It is specifically in the realm of films that this evil is escalating.

A further aspect is the crude language that is used, or the unbridled use of the name of the Almighty. Then there are also crudely represented sex scenes. Snippets of sex and snippets of dialogue …

Oom Sporie, have you ever seen a blue film?

No, not yet. I leave that to that hon. member. I am just giving a review of what is happening in South Africa these days. I have never yet had any truck with anything like that. I have read about all these things, but I have not really ever seen anything like that.

I should like to refer to a film entitled “Pastimes” which deals with unchastity amongst the youth of America. This film came before the appeal board. The Publications Committee regarded the film as undesirable. The film deals with the problem of teenagers, the main character being played by a 15-year-old. An immoral life-style is depicted by way of various permissive scenes. Abortion is regarded as a virtue and immoral acts seem quite natural to the manufacturers, quite normal, satisfying and justified. Unchaste photographs of nude scenes are repulsive and should, like the title of this film, be roundly condemned. I just want to refer to one phrase in the film to indicate how religion is also very subtley brought in. In the film it is said: “Forty dollars worth, whether she comes, stays, lays or prays”. They try to catch people’s attention with such phrases.

The film “Night Games” is in much the same vein. I therefore want to express my thanks and appreciation for the heartbeat of our publications control system, i.e. the various committees that take the decisions at the initial level. I want to thank the directorate and the large number of ad hoc committees for the large amount of material they investigate. There is no general system of censorship that is applicable as a rule. Everything appearing on the shelves of bookshops can be banned. In the case of films, however, things are different. It is not the Publications Act’s task to point a moral finger. It cannot serve as an absolute and faultless protector of moral standards. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is a distinct privilege for me to follow up on the speech of the hon. member for Rosettenville. I want to say at once that I must plead guilty on two counts. Firstly I do not have all the knowledge that hon. member has. Secondly, I have never before heard that any other member speak on this subject. I should, however, like to say a few words about publications control.

It is an absolute fact—and I want to state it as such—that it is the high priority task of any government in the world to make laws and institute control measures. These must not merely be control measures or punitive measures in regard to things that are wrong, but should also serve as guidelines or norms in accordance with which one should act. I should like to emphasize that no government can properly educate a citizen of a country, or make him a Christian, by way of laws. One Sunday morning the minister of my church gave a very telling sermon with which every right-minded individual ought to agree. He said, firstly, that we should be thankful for the fact that we had a Christian government in power. He said that was why there were laws, regulations, control measures and control bodies to serve as a framework within which a Christian community could live and operate. He went on to state very specifically, however, that no government could carry out the task that the family, the community, the school and, in particular, the church must and can perform. If these bodies could not manage to make of someone an educated person with certain inherent qualities, no law or rigid and absolute prohibitions would manage to do so.

In listening to opinions from all quarters—above, below, left and right—one nevertheless realizes that between these two extremes, somewhere within, there must be a balance. After all, both these extremes cannot be right. Therefore we would once again like to give the assurance that the publications control body does indeed give proper consideration to what each and everyone says. If one looks at letters in the media to which the publications control body listens and reacts, if one duly takes note of all these things and then also takes note of the average four letters of protest per week that reach the control body, one can state categorically that there is really not much question of people erring as far as this is concerned. As fair and reasonable people we must remember that nobody can read, look at and listen to everything. That is physically impossible. Hence the publication control body’s really earnest request that the public should co-operate. When all is said and done, it is the public that must object and make submissions.

I want to state very clearly, without beating about the bush, that a publications control body can never be a people’s conscience. That we can forget about. I can give hon. members the assurance that this body, which we are discussing, is doing best to keep undesirable material out of our country. In the process certain guidelines are followed. Notice is taken, for example, of court decisions, particularly the Supreme Court and the Appeal Court, and these courts try to establish a reasonable delimitation of interests. The Directorate of Publications, like the courts, has never seen itself as a prosecutor in the name of morals, religion or State security. It is decidedly, however, an arbiter of the respective interests. The directorate chiefly devotes itself to letting through such material as would, in its opinion, meet the requirements of a probable adult reader or viewer.

The 1973-’74 Commission of Enquiry into the Publications and Entertainments Act came to the following conclusion—

In that report it is stated clearly that the primary task of the protection of sound morals, in the struggle against various evils, lies with the community, but that the authorities also have a role to play in this connection. I should like to emphasize the task of the community.

Publications control bodies have always and will always accept their task in this connection with great dedication. They must chiefly direct their attention at three aspects. Firstly, they must direct their attention at the maintenance of a balance between these various norms. Secondly, they must direct their attention at a reasonable delimination of interests, i.e. between the reader, the authorities, the community and the publisher. Thirdly, they must try to reconcile these interests. We must state categorically that a publications control body does not take sides. This is sometimes alleged, but although people criticise the choice of a so-called golden mean, the fact remains that there is still the norm of the normal man’s needs. It is not always clear what gives rise to this harsh criticism. Perhaps it is due to secularization which is spreading, or to the superficialization of spiritual values. Or perhaps it is because we want to politicize the whole issue, and that, I want to state very clearly, is regrettable. All of us sitting in this House are opposed to these evils entering our country. The demands are becoming increasingly more radical, increasingly more relentless, and matters are becoming increasingly polarized. In this process the control bodies are trying to maintain a balance and bring about reconciliation. Let me state briefly that we on this side of the House sincerely believe that if one must err in seeking a balance, one should rather err on the side of conservatism. Unfortunately, however, criticism comes from all sides, from people who do not really understand this matter and do not realise that the real task of bringing this about lies with the community, the school, the family and the church. These critics, in getting excited about two or three films or one or two books, so often forget that there are 2 000 other publications that go through and thousands of films which are approved and about which no one says anything. On the other hand, it is unfortunately a fact that there is that completely liberal section that believes that one should allow everything or virtually everything, merely on the strength of what they believe to be the inherently sound qualities of mankind as such. This is all taking place without any regard to the fact that this publications control body consists, in total, of almost 200 people who, I believe, are sincerely trying to serve the community and the country. Surely these people cannot always be making mistakes. They are, after all, educated, civilized Christian people who also have certain personal norms which they try to convey to the public. I would therefore very much like to appeal for understanding and co-operation. Let us rather join hands as a community in an effort to keep these things out of our country, things which we, as educated and civilized Christian people, do not want here.

Mr. Chairman, I shall react in due course to the speeches made by the hon. member for Rosettenville and the hon. member for Wellington. I want to begin by saying that it is a great pleasure to participate in this debate and I am deeply grateful to hon. members for the kind things that have been said here today. I think the department has done very good and thorough work over the past year, and few mistakes were made, as we have been clearly told here this afternoon. To me personally it is very pleasant to be able to co-operate with the hon. the Minister of Internal Affairs. I also wish to pay tribute to his predecessor, Mr. Heunis, with whom I also co-operated for a long time in this department. It was very difficult sometimes to keep up, because the pace is rather fast, but one finds the strength somewhere to do it.

I very much wanted to react to the speech made by the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens, with reference to a remark he made in this House, but unfortunately he is not here at the moment.

He will be here presently.

I shall leave the matter at that for the moment.

I want to concentrate on those hon. members who spoke about the control of publications. I shall start with the hon. member for Green Point. This hon. member levelled the charge here that we were too strict in our implementation of the fifth provision of section 47(2), i.e. the provision in terms of which any publication which is prejudicial to the safety of the State, the general welfare or the peace and good order must be prohibited.

Now I want to tell the hon. member—and he alleged that banning these things meant that we did not really get to know the problems of the country, and therefore we did not get to know one another—that I believe that we have many magazines and newspapers in this country, many daily papers and Sunday papers, which make one realize, on reading them, that these magazines and daily papers are free to state the problems of South Africa unequivocally. In fact, they are doing so.

That is not what Die Vaderland said.

Then one also realizes that they do not hesitate to criticize the Government. When we look at the Sunday papers in particular, we notice that they contain a great deal of criticism against the Government, and that the problems of this country are actually being aggravated in this way. Therefore I do not consider it necessary to make this subversive literature available to the Republic of South Africa.

That is not what Wimpie de Klerk said either.

It is the task of the Government, after all, to ensure that peace and order are maintained in the country. However, I want to add at once that when there are students who want to use some of this literature for research purposes, they can apply for permission to do so, and in that way obtain access to literature of that nature.

The hon. member for Green Point also chided the hon. the Minister for having referred It’s a Boy to the Appeal Board. The Publications Act, 1974, gives the Minister of Internal Affairs that right of referral. I believe that we should not only apply one part of the Act and forget about the rest. It is discreetly implemented, but it embodies the total mechanism of the Act, a mechanism built into the Act itself, which the hon. the Minister can therefore make use of. The hon. member referred to It’s a Boy. He had quite a lot to say about it. However, I should also like to draw his attention to the fourth provision of section 47(2), which refers to material which is harmful to the relations between any sections of the inhabitants of the Republic. Of course, the relations between the population groups can be harmed in this way as a result of things which are presented either on the stage or in a film or publication. It is the task of the Government to ensure that this does not happen.

The hon. member for Rissik said that he greatly appreciated the control which was being exercised over publications. He said that he was somewhat worried about the fact that a liberal tendency was becoming evident. I want to put it to him that he does not have to be very worried. We shall look into the matter and I can assure him that there will be no such tendency.

Then the hon. member for Rissik referred to what the hon. member for East London North had allegedly said during the discussion of this Vote last year. However, the hon. member for East London North is not in the House at the moment. I can remember, though, that I spoke immediately after him last year. I specifically pointed out on that occasion that the hon. member for East London North had expressed his personal opinion. I distantiated myself from what the hon. member for East London North had said, and I do so again on this occasion. I do not subscribe to that standpoint of his, and I can assure the hon. member for Rissik that the hon. member for East London North was given a talking-to in the right place. After all, one does not discipline one’s child in public. One does so in the right place. [Interjections.]

The hon. member for Rosettenville and the hon. member for Wellington also made contributions in this connection. The hon. member for Rosettenville spoke about the vulgar presentations in the entertainment world, and especially on the video casettes, which we are faced with today. I understand that the hon. member has not yet watched such a casette. I do not want to offer here to arrange for him to watch one. However, if he really wants to find out what is available and what we are up against with in this country, the unscrupulousness which exists in this field, I shall give him some further information so that he may fully realize what is going on.

I am grateful to be able to say this afternoon that we have appointed an inter-departmental committee of inquiry into the control of publications. This was done more than a year ago. The report of that committee has virtually been completed. We are perfectly aware of the fact that enormous malpractices exist in this sphere. There was a radio programme—on Sunday night, I believe—dealing with video casettes and copyright. We know that prints are being made of films on a vast scale. We also know that some of these people have no scruples and we are aware of a trade in video casettes which is certainly not conducive to the welfare of our people. I can give hon. members the assurance this afternoon that active steps will be taken in this connection. Already there is legislation on the Order Paper to remove a problem which exists in this connection. Because it has been ruled by the Supreme Court in the Transvaal that a video casette is not the same as a film, the matter is now being rectified so that action can be taken against persons who are in possession of these video casettes. We are experiencing major problems in this connection, for if a print is made of a film which is subject to an age restriction, how can it be shown to the ordinary family? This matter is being investigated because we wish to protect the public of South Africa from these evils.

I wholeheartedly agree with the hon. member for Wellington, who says that the community should take action in this field, that it should contribute its share and should take a stronger stand. I want to say this afternoon that I think our South African community in general is opposed to vulgarity. We may have different approaches and there may be groups which are somewhat more liberal in this respect, while others are more conservative, but I think the average South African will not tolerate these things. He does not want vulgar and indecent material to be made available to our children, because, among other things, it undermines their spiritual values. Therefore I want to take this opportunity this afternoon of paying tribute and conveying my sincere thanks to all those who are concerned with the control of publications in South Africa. I want to give the assurance that these people are absolute experts who do their work in a dedicated manner. I am thinking, for example, of the Director of Publications, Prof. Coetzee, together with the Directorate and all the members of his staff as well as the members serving on the various committees. There are about 200 of them in South Africa. They come forward voluntarily to do this great and important work. I do not think they lay claim to perfection. Mistakes are indeed made because the work is done by human beings. I also want to thank the chairman of the Appeal Board, Prof. Van Rooyen, as well as members of the Appeal Board, because I realize that they have a very difficult task to perform. I also want to give hon. members the assurance that they perform that task with very great dedication and very great thoroughness. I think we in South Africa are privileged to have the services of people of this calibre.

I also want to convey my thanks this afternoon to the members of the public who take an interest in this matter. Almost every day we receive many letters from people who complain and people who are dissatisfied. In some cases there are indications of an unbalanced attitude, but I think the average member of the public who complains is a person who really takes an interest in the matter. There are also many organizations, some of which I have been privileged to meet. I think that these people are sincere in their intentions, because we all wish to preserve our moral norms.

The hon. member for Rosettenville mentioned a long list of statistics. I just want to refer to one of the figures he mentioned. Between 1 January and 22 April this year, 451 films were viewed, of which 260 were passed without any restrictions, 150 were passed with restrictions and 41 were banned. One realizes, therefore, that a task of great magnitude is being performed in a very thorough manner. During these four months, 483 publications were submitted, which were carefully scrutinized. Of these, 224 were passed and 259 were banned. So the people involved in the control of publications are performing an enormous task, but they are doing it in a balanced manner, and I think we may really be proud of and grateful for the system for control of publications which we have in South Africa.

The maintenance and development of high moral standards in South Africa is the foundation on which future achievement in all fields must rest. I am convinced that the people of South Africa are going to produce even greater achievements in future than we have done in the past, but then we must have these moral standards as a foundation upon which we can build, for if these are lacking, the edifice of our national life as well as of the administration of the State will collapse. We are engaged in a struggle against moral degeneration. The destructive wave of permissiveness has already engulfed many countries, and we cannot deny that. One notices this when travelling abroad. It has engulfed many countries with destructive consequences.

Once again, South Africa is not watching the situation as a spectator from the sidelines. In our struggle against degeneration, the development and promotion of a Christian view of life is always of central importance, and—here I want to endorse the remarks made by the hon. member for Wellington—it is the specific task and duty of parents, schools, churches, cultural and other bodies to perform the basic task in respect of our young people and our children in particular.

The development and preservation of high moral standards in South Africa is primarily the responsibility of the parents, the schools and the churches, but—I want to emphasize this this afternoon—the State also has a duty in this connection. It is the responsibility of the State to play a supporting role in this connection in order to enable these institutions to fulfil their particular obligations and duties. That is why we have had laws in this connection in our country since 1931.

I want to conclude my remarks on the question of the control of publications by assuring hon. members that the Government regards this as a very serious matter, that the people involved in the control of publications are not adopting an easy-going attitude, that things are not just taking their own course. It would be wrong to make these statements and allegations which one often hears. I think this is a matter in respect of which we should take concerted action, a matter which affects our children and our future. We should not indulge in mutual recriminations; we should help and support one another.

Having dealt with the control of publications, I want to reply to the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens, who referred to the Waterkloof voters’ roll, with regard to which there was some confusion. I think that if the hon. member’s party had won in that constituency, he would probably not have complained, but now the position is the same as in the case of the Western Province. When they could not beat Northern Transvaal, they criticized the referee.

Come back to the facts.

On the last day of last year’s session—it was at 05h30—I said (Hansard, 1982, col. 9457)—

I went on to say—

I submit that we have never had a perfect voters’ roll in any by-election or general election. This does not exist anywhere in the world. It has always contained the names of people who are no longer resident there, while not containing the names of others.

I want to tell the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens that what we did in Waterkloof was exactly what the hon. member had asked for in his amendment in 1982. I can give him the assurance that no one was disenfranchised. I also want to tell him that under normal circumstances, when there is not a general or a by-election being held, we could have taken the steps to which I referred last year. However, we were faced with a time factor which did not allow us to make such enquiries before transferring statistics from the population register to the voters’ rolls and having those rolls printed by the Government Printer for use in the by-elections.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Deputy Minister a question?

Just allow me to complete my argument. The voters’ rolls were supplemented from the population register anyway by means of information provided by the voters themselves. That is how the voter’s lists were compiled. The hon. member may ask his question now.

Mr. Chairman, with reference to the point the hon. the Deputy Minister is making now about providing information from the population register, I want to ask him whether it is not correct that there is no need for section 4 of the amending Act of last year. It could be done under the existing Act without any problem whatsoever, as long as a written application or a registration form was obtained from the voter.

That may be so. I do not want to argue the matter with the hon. member at this stage. We shall go into the whole matter again, bearing in mind the remarks of the hon. member for Tygervallei as well. I undertake that when we look at the electoral laws, we shall reconsider this matter as well. I just want to say with regard to Waterkloof no one was disenfranchised. However, we shall investigate the matter again.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Deputy Minister has been talking about the remarks made by the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens in respect of Waterkloof and the voters’ roll there. I can now understand why the NRP did not do so well there. All the NRP voters must have been taken off! [Interjections.]

When I took part earlier in this debate, I was talking about computerization generally and the fact that perhaps we had overdone the issue in South Africa, bearing in mind that we have to deal with both a First World and a Third World type of life. I should like to say a few words about the population register. I do not think there is any doubt whatsoever that as far as the population register is concerned we must have a computerized service if it is to be effective and if it is going to be usable in the number of ways it should be usable. I want to make this point because this is one of the departments which is everlastingly being subjected to complaints. In fact, as far as the Natal newspapers are concerned, one of them has made a big joke out of it and has organized a competition to find out who took the longest to get his identity document. I think that so far the longest waiting period has been four-and-a-half years. This sort of thing is worrying to people and, I am sure, to the hon. the Minister as well. He cannot possibly like this sort of thing going on. It is not only worrying; it is actually damaging the interests of many members of the public. There was an article in the paper only the other day of a woman who has been struggling for three years to get her identity document. She is having difficulty with the bank; she is having difficulty with the municipality and she is having all sorts of difficulties because she does not have an identity document when she moves from one place to another, when she opens accounts, etc. This is a serious matter for people. It is not just a question of a minor inconvenience; it is a serious matter.

The hon. member for Turffontein seems to feel that a remarkably good job is being done by this department. He feels that because 6,7 million people have been issued with identity documents—approximately 390 000 were issued last year—this is a marvellous achievement, but I believe that if this is the pace at which we are going, we are never really going to catch up. The 390 000 issued last year included approximately 170 000 new births. Allowing for that and the fact that if you are dealing purely with the White, Coloured and Indian communities you have to get approximately 8 million current identity documents out, it will take another seven or eight years to get up to date at the speed which we are going now. As I have said, this is extremely worrying. It has been suggested that there is a delay of only 19 months. This may be the average, but I certainly do not think that this is the situation in all cases. There have been many instances of people waiting for years to get their identity documents. I would very much like to get hold of all the letters which the Natal newspaper has of these people and the time it has taken for them to get hold of documents. The newspaper merely published a few of those letters.

Another aspect which is of considerable interest when one goes through the annual report of the department, is the fact that in respect of race classifications there seems to have been a considerable surge of activity during the last year. In 1981 there were apparently only 162 changes in race classification. During 1982 there were 997 changes in race classification. This is a very interesting figure. There were 722 people from the Coloured community who were reclassified as Whites. Quite obviously, bearing in mind the ramifications of this, I would say that this must be a terrific thing for the people concerned. I believe the department must be commended for it. I know that they do not change a race classification unless they are satisfied that a good case can be made out and that there is a good reason for doing so. I must say that this obvious speeding up of changes in race classification is of enormous benefit. I do not think that one can, unless one has been through the experience of trying to help somebody in respect of reclassification, realize what a tragedy it is for these people. I am not going to go into the details of any particular case, but I do know of one case where there was a suicide. A family lost their house and their business and eventually the whole family was destroyed because of this issue. It was also largely due to the unconscionable time that was taken at that time to deal with the matter. This happened some years ago. That is why I say I am very grateful indeed that these cases of changes in race classification are now being treated expeditiously. I would personally like to thank the departmental officials with whom I have had some dealings in one or two cases for the way they have expedited these matters.

I do not have a great deal of time available to speak on the issue of local government, but I cannot help but feel that there is not much point in discussing it too much. This is definitely and obviously going to involve another department. However, I would commend the hon. the Minister to have a look at the question of management and local affairs committees and to stimulate a little more interest in them and in the development of them into local authorities, if that is practical, before the Ministry changes hands.

In the various provinces there are a number of these management committees. In all the years they have been running, starting way back in 1963 and 1964, the only province that has made a serious attempt to develop these management committees into local authorities has been Natal. There is one in Pacaltsdorp in the Cape, but, I understand, it has never been able to run on a fully economic basis without very substantial subsidies.

It is a disaster.

I do not know. It has never been able to function properly though as far as I know. These four Indian local authorities—we had a couple more in the pipeline—in Natal are fully-fledged and fully economic local authorities who pay their own way. They get no subsidies. They do not need subsidies. This is the aspect that is worrying me in respect of some of these new local authorities that are likely to be promulgated in the future. I really do believe that in the Transvaal in particular—I do not know about the Cape—it could have been and should have been possible to have established certain Indian local authorities. It is not a question of establishing ethnic local authorities alone. It is also a question of these people getting into the main stream of public life and really accepting responsibility as well as having authority. I would certainly commend that aspect to the hon. the Minister.

Mr. Chairman, on the occasion of this, my first venture into the discussion of the Vote of the Department of Internal Affairs, I should like to associate myself with the hon. the Deputy Minister and convey my appreciation for what my predecessor, the present hon. Minister of Constitutional Affairs and Planning, achieved in this Post. Since I took this portfolio over from him last year, I have constantly come across signs of his dedication, he was in charge of the department for a mere two years, but it is amazing how often one hears that he did or decided this or that. He was very active and really got things moving. Particularly at the level of relations among peoples he apparently managed to establish on both sides a new spirit of mutual trust, candour and understanding of the standpoints of the various population groups. I should like to take this opportunity to thank him for the sound state of affairs I encountered in the Department of Internal Affairs.

We are now approaching the end of that part of the debate which is concerned with internal affairs in the narrower sense. Before replying to matters that have already been raised, I myself should first like to touch on three matters which at present are the subject of considerable interest.

In the first place, I want to refer to the Referendums Act, an Act of great importance as far as the announced referendum is concerned. We have listened to two interesting speeches in this regard, that of the hon. member for Tygervallei and that of the hon. member Mr. Kritzinger. It is really a pleasure to listen to experts discussing their field of interest. I hasten to say that I associate myself with the problems in our existing system identified by the hon. member for Tygervallei and the hon. member Mr. Kritzinger. It is indeed true that there is a considerable need for streamlining in this regard. Whereas the Select Committee that investigated the Electoral Act was more inclined to approach the matter within the framework of the existing point of departure, and attempted to streamline the Act on that existing basis, the question arose when the referendum was announced—the fact that it was becoming a reality—as to whether that basic point of departure was still the best one to adopt in the modern situation in which we find ourselves at present, since we have come a long way as regards the issue of identity documents and so on. We also considered this matter at Government level and in the department, viz. the question of how to streamline the essential aspect of collecting the special votes of the masses of voters who no longer live in constituencies where their names appear on the voters’ rolls, so that the parties taking part in the referendum could concentrate their efforts on influencing and persuading people to adopt a certain standpoint, rather than driving kilometres after them just to ensure that they vote at a specific place or that their vote is sent through the post and arrives at a specific place by a specific date. Ultimately, the important issue in a referendum, and surely in elections, too, is that the largest possible number of citizens qualified to vote will have the opportunity to vote, and that we should make it as easy as possible for them to vote within the framework of effective controls, so as to prevent mishaps and abuses. We did some thinking about the matter and reached the conclusion that particularly in the case of referendums it was possible to streamline the system to a greater extent. Accordingly I should like to announce that the Government has decided in principle—and this, then is the reply to the hon. member for Tygervallei—to amend the Referendums Act during this session to make it more streamlined, to make it easier for the voter to cast his vote on election day although, in the nature of the matter, provision must still be made for voters who are ill and voters for whom it is really impossible to get to a ballot box. We have already conducted discussions. I have already conducted brief discussions with the leaders of the three parties present in this House. There are two practical possibilities they put forward. The first is to recognize the identity document as a point of departure, and then to find a solution for the problem of the approximately 137 000 White voters who do not yet have identity documents. The other is to find one solution for all, and here one could consider the possibility of using a finger-print. After consultation, within my one party as well, we reached the conclusion that the best point of departure would be the identity document and, perhaps, the issue of a temporary identity document on a basis which the Government as well as political parties can contribute to at an early stage in order to enable any voter who is qualified to vote, to cast a vote if he has in his possession either an identity document or some other document he could present, wherever he may be on voting day, and on which the fact that he has voted may be recorded in a way that cannot be duplicated or removed. On the basis of those basic guidelines, draft legislation will now be drawn up without delay and further consultation will also take place.

I should like to say that it is still our endeavour in this instance, too, to hold fast to the sound tradition that we should try to achieve maximum consensus in regard to these matters. Therefore we shall negotiate with the other political parties that will also take part in the referendum in order to afford them the opportunity to make their full contributions and take cognizance of precisely what we envisage and ultimately, after joint deliberation, to come to this House, before too long, with the best possible legislation.

How often can one vote?

Only once. I want to point out that it is true that a mechanism will have to be built into the legislation. The loopholes have already been identified. I can see a gleam in the eyes of some hon. members, they are the hon. members in whose eyes I had expected to see a gleam. [Interjections.] However, they should not have a gleam in their eyes. In the first place I can say here and now that there ought to be a very stringent penal provisions in the legislation with regard to double voting. It must be a penal provision which involves a fine which, if not paid, would lead to imprisonment. We shall also have to see to it—I want to point this out even now—that every identity number on the basis of which a vote is cast will be tested. Therefore double voting will be traced by the computer which the hon. member for Umbilo is apparently somewhat opposed to, and people who vote more than once will definitely be caught out. We shall work out a procedure in this regard and then ensure that no irregularities remain untraced.

That is, if you can find the fellow who has used a specific number. [Interjections.]

The second matter to which I want to refer …

Mr. Chairman, before he goes any further, I should just like to ask the hon. the Minister, with regard to the question of the amendment of the Referendums Act, whether he envisages that this matter will again be referred to a Select Committee of Parliament before the final statutory amendment is introduced in this House.

Mr. Chairman, that is not what is envisaged. We do envisage arranging informal and thorough consultation among the various political parties. However, we do not believe that the proposed amendments will be so substantial as to justify another long, comprehensive and lengthy investigation.

The second matter to which I want to refer concerns the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act. Formally speaking, this Act does, it is true, still fall under the Department of Justice, but the Government decided some time ago that in the process of rationalization this Bill ought to be linked with the Marriage Act, 1961, which is administered by the Department of Internal Affairs, and that this matter as a whole is one which belongs with the Department of Internal Affairs. The Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act is constantly the subject of discussion and representations, and earnest appeals are being made to the Government in this regard from various quarters. Accordingly, I conducted discussions recently with the hon. leaders of the PFP, the CP and the NRP, arising out of the debate which took place during the discussion of the Vote of the hon. the Prime Minister in which he intimated that he would be prepared to appoint a Select Committee subject to certain conditions.

In the nature of the matter, if such a Select Committee were to be established it would also have to investigate section 16 of the Immorality Act, because this section is related to the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act. Accordingly I consulted in this regard not only the three hon. leaders of the political parties mentioned, but also the hon. the Minister of Justice, under whose jurisdiction section 16 of the Immorality Act falls. As a result I can report today that we have made good progress with our negotiations among the parties and that we have certainly reached a provisional understanding; an understanding which, on the one hand, complies with the condition set by the hon. the Prime Minister; viz. that of a non-party-political basis and a responsible approach, and, on the other hand, one that does not commit various parties with regard to standpoints based on principle.

The next step I now propose is consultation with regard to the terms of reference of such a Select Committee; once again this is a matter for mutual consultation among the parties. If we are able to reach agreement in that regard then this matter will be proceeded with.

The third matter to which I want to refer is the issue of the composition of the voters’ rolls, and the matter of the best method to be used by political parties in respect of the registration of their voters. The question they will probably ask, and which has also been asked in my own ranks, is whether we must still have voters who have moved, registered with the RV1 card or whether we should have such voters complete the notice of change of address for the population register, or whether both of these methods should not perhaps be adopted. Probably hon. members of this House are the last people to whom it needs to be explained that in terms of the Electoral Act, voters’ rolls are drawn up for the various constituencies. Anyone who wants to vote has to apply to be registered on such a voters’ roll, and if he subsequently moves to another constituency, he must reapply to be included on that voters’ roll. That is the standard method followed. This is the process by which it may be ensured that a voter votes, that a political party will rather have the RV1 card filled in to ensure that those cards find their way to the Department of Internal Affairs so as to ensure that their voters are in fact registered. We know that all this costs political parties a great deal in terms of money and work. This system has also meant that due to technical or procedural hitches, people are often not registered or not directly registered when there is an election.

†In this connection, Mr. Chairman, although the hon. the Deputy Minister has already dealt with most of the points raised by the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens I should just like to say that even though the hon. member has some criticism of the procedure followed by co-ordinating the population register and the voters’ rolls during the past four by-elections, the fact of the matter is that the overwhelming testimony that I have received is that on polling-day there were hardly any voters who were dissatisfied because they had not been able to vote, whereas, during the previous general election, we had the situation where hundreds of people in each constituency complained that they had lived there for five or 10 years and that they had been unable to vote because for some or other technical reason their names had been omitted from the voters’ roll. I want to say that our experience has been that in practice this proved to be an improvement as far as the voters were concerned. [Interjections.] All parties were faced simultaneously with the fact that there were 2 000 or 3 000 voters more to canvass, to trace and to deal with. All political parties were subject to the same problems in that regard but the voters in the final analysis benefited because the polling-booth was more accessible to more voters than it would otherwise have been.

Except those in the cemeteries.

To eliminate duplication of work and to ensure, as far as is practicable, that everyone who wishes to vote is entitled to do so—and after all, that should be our common aim—we are working along the lines of seeking to do away with voters’ rolls on which people have to be registered. We should prefer to use the population register from which to draw lists of the people who are entitled to vote in elections. We believe that by means of this system we could eliminate a great deal of work for both political parties and the State machine, and at the same time would ensure that as few enfranchised citizens as possible would be prevented from voting and exercising their civil rights due to technical or administrative reasons or because parties in a specific constituency are not well organized. To ensure that matters run smoothly and that the one system is not withdrawn before the other system has been duly tested, the change-over is, however, being carried out step by step, and the final steps will only follow when we are sure that the new system will work better than the old one and that the total change-over will not result in people being deprived of their vote. In this process, as a first step provision is made in the Electoral Amendment Act of 1982 for the supplementing of voters’ rolls with the names of persons who do not appear on it but who are entitled to vote in those constituencies according to the population register. The result was clearly observable during the recent by-elections and I have already referred to that. The same process of supplementation is in progress at present with respect to all the other constituencies in the Republic, and it is hoped that this task will be completed by August this year. All parties will then be able to request voters’ rolls that will be complete and will have been brought up to date with reference, too, to the population register, and once again the latest information will be used. If the latest information is used—if the latest information is in the population register, it will be accepted as valid, but if the latest information is on an RV 1 card, it will also be accepted as valid.

However, I also wish to inform hon. members that the Electoral Amendment Bill which was agreed on in the Select Committee will not be proceeded with in this session. The plan is to proceed with it early in next year’s session so that, among other things, we shall also have more time to consider whether it cannot be streamlined any further. Moreover, it is necessary to hold it back because I think it will be as well first to scrutinize the final details of the new constitution before finalizing our terminology and so on with regard to electoral legislation as well.

Therefore the only direct way—I say this by way of summary—in which a voter can be placed on a voters’ roll is still by filling in an application, an RV 1 form. Accordingly that, in the nature of the matter, is the normal method I must recommend to political parties. However, in the same breath I must add that supplementation of the voters’ rolls from the population register will be done constantly. Therefore, if anyone sends a notice of change of address to the population register, due to the supplementation process that change of address will also mean that where applicable, the voter will be removed from one voters’ roll and placed on another. A notice to the population register will therefore have the same effect as a notice with or without an RV 1 registration application form.

I also wish to announce that it has been decided to make notices of change of address for the population register available to parties in postcard form. Such postcards will be easier to deal with and may be posted without an envelope. Political parties that wish to concentrate on such notices or that even wish to rely on them alone will be just as effective as those that decide to use the RV 1 card. I also wish to say that these changes of address, typed on lists, will in future be acceptable for the population register at any regional office or at the head office of the department, as is the case with the RV 1 cards. The fists will be stamped and those lists will therefore serve as proof of submission, and for that reason adjustment of the voters’ rolls can take place at the same time if such proofs are submitted.

So much for these three important matters. As is very clearly illustrated by, in particular, the first and third matters I have touched on, the Department of Internal Affairs is pre-eminently a service department, and our orientation is to seek at all times to improve that service. We should like to be more effective and we should like to offer our clients a service of a standard to which they are entitled. We also search our own hearts and recognize that there are still bottlenecks and that there are areas in regard to which we have shortcomings.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister whether he can tell us if the problem which we had particularly in Natal a year ago with people who were taken off the voters’ roll as dead—there were thousands of them—has not been solved? The hon. the Minister will be aware of the problem which we had in January last year where thousands of voters were removed from the voters’ roll under the code number for dead people when they were not dead.

Unfortunately I am not aware of that specific instance.

†At that stage I was still the Minister of Mineral and Energy Affairs, but I shall look into it and we shall ensure that if at all possible, the problem will also be solved.

*Within the department there is an enthusiastic search for better methods, curtailed procedures, rationalization and the cultivation of a sensitivity to the interests of the public. To illustrate this I should like to refer to certain other matters.

The department has been aware for some time that it does not give news media the kind of service that may be expected of it. We deal with a vast number of matters which often give rise to inquiries in the media. The media are also entitled to know whom to contact to have inquiries promptly answered and also to be informed by the department from time to time without it being necessary to request information. Therefore a liaison structure is now being planned within the department, and a start on this has been made with the appointment of a liaison officer on the Parliamentary staff. The news media are being informed who he is and where he can be contacted. A central component has also been established in Pretoria and will be extended. We hope also to have branches at our regional offices.

We have endured some criticism today—we often encounter this—concerning identity documents and problems in this regard. I should like to associate myself with the well-reasoned speech of the hon. member for Turffontein in this regard and thank him for his contribution and the information he gave, which has facilitated my task a great deal. It is undoubtedly a very frustrating experience for anyone to apply for an identity document or its re-issue and then have to wait for months or even years and make inquiries about it. It is true that there is a backlog as regards the issue and re-issue of identity documents, and there are such cases. It is also true that the public themselves are sometimes negligent in their handling of such matters in that they provide incomplete or incorrect details. Reference has already been made to this. This is also a tremendous task if one bears in mind that every month approximately 50 000 applications for identity documents and re-issues are dealt with. However, we are determined to place this aspect of our activities on a sound basis and to keep it that way. For many years our people regularly have been working longer hours than could reasonably be expected of them, and people from elsewhere have also been involved in this for a long time on a part-time or overtime basis. A committee system was introduced in the department recently by means of which an effort is being made to elicit and consider workable proposals for improvements in procedures and methods. An investigation into a uniform identity document has just been disposed of, and we are deliberating as to what information is really required and essential in such a document, because we would prefer to scale down a service than to provide a broad service ineffectively. Perhaps there are too many details that still have to be entered at the moment. A work study team is at present investigating this matter in general terms and we hope to receive their findings and advice shortly. I wish to say that we shall not rest before we are rendering a service of an acceptable standard and before everyone who has requested an identity document has received one.

The department’s immigration service is something that it can refer to with pride. Over the past few years we have doubled our immigration rate, but drastically reduced the number of our officials dealing with this. This is an indication that we are succeeding in our efforts to rationalize and increase productivity. This is a good example of better service using fewer people. Hon. members can determine for themselves what this means for South Africa by trying to work out what it would cost the country just to train the 1 226 engineers, 151 medical practitioners and dentists, 208 accountants and 246 educationists who entered the country during the first eight months of 1982.

The nature of the service rendered by the department is probably even more evident in those components concerned with the development of the Coloured and Indian population groups. Several matters could be referred to in order to illustrate that we are in earnest as regards the increase in the quality of our service to this section of the population. Fine things have been and are being done, but I realize that this is still to be discussed and I do not wish to anticipate hon. members in this debate. Nevertheless there is one important educational matter which I want to mention as an example and in regard to which I want to make an announcement.

For almost as long as I can remember, there has always been insufficient classrooms for the Coloured and Indian children who attend school. The number of children at school rises more rapidly than schools can be built to accommodate them and that means double-shift classes, which has become anathema to many people. At schools which have insufficient classrooms, one group of children goes to school in the morning, and when they go home, another group of children with another group of teachers take their place. This practice was born of necessity, but one can imagine what a disruptive effect it must have on children, parents and teachers alike. The children come to school in the afternoon when they are tired from playing; working parents are worried about their children who do not go to school in the mornings, and teachers have an abnormal routine. It is no wonder that everyone considers double-shift classes to be an absurdity and that everyone longs for the day when our school-building programme will catch up with the increase in the number of our pupils.

It is a pleasant task for me to be able to announce that from the beginning of the next school term this year there will no longer be a single double-shift class in Indian education.

Hear, hear!

The last are being phased out at the end of this school term.

I think that the Directorate of Indian Education really deserves to be congratulated by this House on the milestone it has reached, one which is the result of many years of careful planning and untiring efforts.

As far as Coloured education is concerned, the number of double-shift classes has also declined gradually, but the situation is still serious. Today there are still approximately 1 400 such classes. The capital expenditure on the school-building programme has been dramatically increased in recent years; but the number of double-shift classes has not diminished rapidly. It is true that they have not risen in number, but we are struggling to reduce them. For this reason we put our heads together again this year to see whether we could not come up with a plan. We took another look at the only logical solution, viz. temporary classrooms. Other education departments make considerable use of this method to alleviate their accommodation problems, but the Directorate of Coloured Education was hesitant, because their experience has been that a sensitivity in regard to temporary classrooms existed among their people. Apparently they had in the past considered prefabricated classrooms and prefabricated schools to be inferior buildings and thought that they were being shabbily treated. Initially, therefore, the Directorate was of the opinion that temporary classrooms would not be acceptable to the Coloured community. However, we negotiated, and just see what one can accomplish through negotiation. One sees this in other spheres as well, i.e. that one can by means of negotiation and communication bring something home to people and arrive at an understanding. We undertook consultation, inter alia with the Teachers’ Association which is recognized, namely Utasa, and they reacted very rapidly and positively. They stated certain reservations with which we think we will be able to comply.

The temporary classrooms which are available today are of an excellent quality and not comparable at all with the old kind of prefabricated buildings which were used at the time and to which a stigma attaches. There are many White children in temporary classrooms. In the Transvaal at present, as a result of the growth at certain points, tens of thousands of children are attending school in temporary classrooms. Roughly calculated, it is possible to erect 1 400 temporary classrooms of the best quality at a cost of R20 million. We have decided to try to find the money for this purpose, and to make it available, say, in two years’ time, over and above the normal capital expenditure on new schools. I emphasize this: Over and above the expenditure on the building of schools in the normal manner. What we shall do then is to publicize the fact that these classrooms are available, so as to give people an opportunity to ask for them. When the school grounds are suitable for this purpose, we shall erect them. Apparently this plan leaked out, because even before I was able to get hold of the money, the first application came in. Last Friday I approached the Minister of Finance and he immediately perceived the need and made R5 million available for this purpose for the remainder of this year. We are very grateful to him for that. We therefore hope to take the scheme a whole lot further during the present year. If everything goes well it is possible that double-shift classes could be eliminated completely within two to three years from now.

Of course there will and must be other matters on which we on this side of the House and hon. members of the opposite side will differ politically, and sometimes do so seriously and vehemently. However, the debate up to now has been reasonably free of discordant notes, and I hope that the remainder of the debate will also be conducted in this same constructive spirit. I should like to testify that it has been my experience, as well as that of the hon. the Deputy Minister and the officials of the department, that when hon. members approach the department on behalf of an individual or in connection with a particular matter, they display a reasonable and rational approach, despite any differences of opinion which we may have here. What matters to them then just as it does to us, is the public interest and the interest of the individual. I should like to express my appreciation for this today. Hon. members may rest assured that every proposition they put forward, every suggestion they make and all representations which they address, even in connection with a delay or something similar, are welcome and that we try to improve our service on the basis of such suggestions, etc. I therefore invite hon. members to raise matters which they find unsatisfactory in the knowledge that we will find this useful and will receive them in a spirit of co-operation.

I come now to hon. members who have participated in the debate up to now. I should like to thank them all for their contributions. I can assure them that the suggestions that were put forward—I shall not be able to deal with all of them—will receive urgent attention in order to see whether we can follow them up to good effect.

†Firstly, the hon. member for Green Point referred to censorship. The hon. the Deputy Minister has basically already replied to him. I should just like to refer to two aspects raised by the hon. member. Firstly, I want to refer to his use of the word “censorship”. We do not have a censorship system in South Africa. We have a publications control system. There is a vast difference between the two. Why then does the hon. member use the term “censorship” per se?

He says that we must take a new look at the banning of political literature. We do not ban political literature per se. The grounds on which any work of a political nature can be banned are set out in the Act. Primarily a work can be banned when it furthers the cause of communism or terrorism. That is the main ground. Secondly, a work can be banned if it will have a negative effect on good relations between the various peoples and groups in South Africa. [Interjections.] We do not have political censorship. We have political freedom of speech. We have, however, outlawed communism and terrorism in this country. We cannot afford in this country anything which fosters hate between groups and which fosters polarization. I want to ask the hon. member whether he is in favour of the Government taking steps to prevent polarization in South Africa, or whether he would like the Government to allow publications to be published which will be offensive to the feelings of a particular people or group. [Interjections.]

*The hon. member also referred to the prohibition on, as he put it, “the report on South West Africa/Namibia drawn up by the Bishops’ Conference”. I do not know whether he made a study of this report or whether he took the trouble to ascertain what reasons the committee had for prohibiting it. I should like to furnish him briefly with the findings of the committee.

In the first place it is important to note that there are two documents, and it is the abridged version which was prohibited. I shall quote to the hon. member what the reasons were for the committee’s finding—

It is stated further on page 16—

†Now I ask the hon. member: Had he served on that Committee, would he have applied the Act in the way that the Committee did or would he have passed the report?

Do not give me that argument; show me the document.

No, but the hon. member criticized the decision. Mr. Chairman, the hon. member criticized this particular decision. Either he did not know or I must assume that he would have passed it had he served on that Committee.

I have not seen that document.

This is the sort of irresponsible approach that we get from that hon. member which forces us to question his motive for bringing this into this debate. [Interjections.]

*I should like to congratulate the hon. member for Innesdal on being elected, not assigned, to the position of chairman of the study group and also on the fact that he is now the main speaker on Internal Affairs on this side of the House. The hon. member made a good contribution. He focussed the spotlight on the positive and important role which the Press, in the most cases, played in South Africa, the value which newspapers could have and how they ought to be utilized by the reading public. He also referred to what happened in Pretoria and I should like to associate myself very strongly with him in his reproach of our English-language newspapers for their latest handling of what happened in Pretoria. It began well when everyone was shocked, but the signs are there and one need only look at this morning’s Cape Times to see that once again it has been decided within 24 hours that the real culprits for what happened there are to be sought on this side of the House. We had such a fine spirit of unity in this regard. It was an abhorrent act of terror and no one condones it. Does anyone think it would be any different if the PFP were to come into power in this country? Do they think that these people are exploding bombs because they do not like NP policy? Or do they think that these people who are committing these acts of terror want to wipe out everything in front of them and establish an order in this country which not one of us in this House will be prepared to tolerate? We need a spirit of unity in South Africa, a Spirit in which we will stand strongly united against the real onslaught by the true enemies of South Africa. There is one thing we must stop doing, and I hope that the parties that had begun to an increasing extent to indulge in the game of dismissing the definition of total onslaught as a political strategem of the NP, will now stop doing so, and will co-operate with us and support us when we warn all the people in this country that there is in fact a total onslaught, and that we are in grave danger. That is what we should do instead of laughing cynically, as the hon. member for Green Point is now doing.

Yes, I am laughing cynically. [Interjections.]

The second thing which arose from this debate and which we are going to hold against the hon. member for Green Point is the fact that he began his speech by defending this document, the analysis of which I have just quoted to hon. members. Now he is laughing when I ask for his co-operation, when I tell him that we should be united in this respect.

I am not interested in unity in terms of your policy.

I really cannot understand how the hon. member for Yeoville can remain a member of that party. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Rissik had some kind words to say about me when he referred to the fact that I was still new to this portfolio. I thank him very much for doing so. The hon. member for Turffontein replied to the hon. member effectively on the standpoint which he adopted, and I associate myself with that reply. In connection with the hon. member’s attack on the Afrikaans language Press, I feel I must just point out that he has never really been a true friend of the Afrikaans-language Press. He shall have to indicate what the reason for that is himself. It is, alas, a fact that newspapers have the annoying habit of uncovering things which one does not always wish to be made public.

The hon. member even made a plea—and coming from him it was so astonishing that someone could have knocked me over with a feather—for the leftist liberal English-language Press. [Interjections.] Can you believe that he did such a thing in this House? [Interjections.] He rated the English-language Press more highly than the Afrikaans-language newspapers. [Interjections.] We shall use this against the hon. member wherever he goes; he can be sure of that.

Once again you were not listening to me properly. [Interjections.]

The hon. member did not complete his argument in connection with race classification. Consequently I do not know precisely what he wanted to say, but I think I can guess. However, there is nothing sinister in the increase in the numbers to which he referred. In any event we are still implementing the same legislation and applying the same principles, and in the same way as before. In many cases it is even the same officials who are applying it.

I have already referred to the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens, and I have also replied to the hon. member Mr. Kritzinger. The hon. member for Walvis Bay made a wonderful contribution. He pointed out that we were now facing a bridging situation in regard to Walvis Bay. Previously the Department of Internal Affairs was intimately involved in Walvis Bay, and the hon. member also expressed thanks for what the department had done there. We are still rendering services of many kinds to Walvis Bay and this department will continue to take particular care in regard to Walvis Bay because we have a good understanding of the unique circumstances of that region and the people who live there.

The hon. member for Jeppe became ecstatic about the Van der Merwes, senoritas and port wine. This compels me to ask whether there is a connection between these three things. The Van Rensburgs, I deduced, regard these matters in a somewhat different light. The hon. member referred with appreciation to immigrants, and more particularly to our Portuguese community in South Africa. I share with him his great appreciation for the contribution which the Portuguese community is making to the development and safeguarding of our father-land, and I thank the hon. member for his contribution in this connection.

†The hon. member for Umbilo concluded his speech by making the mistake—and I think that by now he feels sorry that he did so—to associate himself with the hon. member for Green Point in his criticism of publications control. I hope that in future the hon. member will make sure of his facts before he so readily associates himself with the hon. member for Green Point.

The hon. member for Umbilo referred in particular to the influence—and also questioned the role—of computers in our society. He did so particularly by referring to the matter in view of the fact that we are in the unique situation of being part of the First World as well as of the Third World. In this respect I must point out that in this department computers play an extremely positive and useful role, and we would definitely not be able to accomplish what we indeed accomplish without computers. In view of the imbalance between high level manpower and unskilled and semi-skilled labour which we have, I believe, computers do in practice perform a very, very important function in improving that imbalance because they assist to a greater degree in the utilization of high level manpower than is the case in respect of the lower levels of manpower. He also referred to race classification, and my reply to him is the same as the one I gave to the hon. member for Rissik.

Finally, he referred to local government. It is true that local government and the development of local government as well as the second tier control is the one matter that has been transferred from my department to the Department of Constitutional Development and Planning together with constitutional development and planning per se. However, I can assure him that because of the other duties resting on our shoulders in this department we are in constant communication with local leaders as well. My perception is that local government for Coloureds and Asians is on the threshold of an exciting new phase.

The hon. member also dealt with the lack of development in certain provinces and I think he said that he was very proud that by now Natal has four or five. I think they should have had more by now. The fact does remain that the problem we have to solve is in relation to a source of income or sources of income for all local governments but particularly also for these. We are addressing this problem, it has been identified as such and, if the hon. member reads the guidelines accepted by my party, he will see that particular reference is made to this problem of sources of income for local government purposes.

Mr. Chairman, I want to thank hon. members for their contributions up to this stage and I look forward to the remainder of the debate.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister has made four very important announcements this afternoon, and I want to begin by referring to his last announcement. The hon. the Minister mentioned the erection of school buildings for the Coloured and Indian communities. I want to take this opportunity of thanking the hon. the Minister this afternoon on behalf of those two groups for the fact that the double shifts for Coloured and Indian pupils are going to be eliminated at schools.

The hon. the Minister also referred to three other matters, namely the decision which had been taken in principle with regard to a referendum, the progress which had been made with regard to the Prohibition of Mixed Marriages Act and the Immorality Act—the investigation in this connection—and finally, the compilation of the voters’ rolls. I wish to thank the hon. the Minister very sincerely for the progress which has been made in this connection. I have only one remark to make in respect of the compilation of the voters’ rolls. My own observation during the recent by-election was that there had definitely been an improvement in respect of the voters’ rolls. Fewer people had to turn back at the polling stations and I attribute this to the fact that the compilation of the voters’ rolls on the basis of the population register is definitely a positive step, which I appreciate.

However, there is one matter which I want to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister. It is a phenomenon which was observed during the recent by-election in Germiston District as well as in the Northern Transvaal. I am referring to the fact that voters are being intimidated at the polling-booths and that voters can no longer move about freely to cast their votes for the candidates belonging to the party which they wish to support. [Interjections.]

I want to express a few ideas which, in spite of obvious differences, nevertheless are or at least should be supported by all of us in this House in so far as they have a bearing on the relevant principles, and that is to prevent the moral standards of our people from being undermined, especially as far as observance of the Lord’s day is concerned. Because any attempt to define these concepts and activities in greater detail could undoubtedly give rise to differences of opinion, I want to say that for the purpose of my argument I just want to give the normal everyday meaning to them, the meaning which would be given by any reasonable person.

It is realized that a discussion of this subject is not without its dangers, mainly because of the different opinions which we hold with regard to this matter in a free and cosmopolitan South Africa. At the same time, however, I am convinced that among the elected representatives of the people, in whose constitution it is unequivocally stated that—

and whose highest institution, namely Parliament, commences its daily sittings with prayers, there will certainly be no difference of opinion whatsoever in respect of the cardinal principals involved, namely the preservation and protection of our Sunday.

These principles constitute a universal duty resting on the church, the people and the State. We who are assembled in this Committee today as representatives of the people …

Which people? Tell us.

… are accountable in this connection. It is in that spirit that I should like to bring this matter to the attention of the Committee.

It is a well-known fact that there is no general agreement among the members of this Committee or among the general public about the means by which this task should be performed in everyday life. We all know that people act in accordance with their conscience. What is more, even in South African Society, which is ordered on Christian principles, there were wide differences of opinion several years ago about the way in which these principles should be upheld in practice, in spite of the fact that it had been put beyond all doubt that they were fully united as a Christian community and that it is our bounden duty and responsibility as a Christian people to honour and protect the day of rest in this country.

The balance of the evidence presently available indisputably points to the fact that the Sate in South Africa is expected to guard scrupulously against the degeneration of the Lord’s day into just another holiday. This protection of the Lord’s day by the State is not a new concept in our country; in fact, it is deeply rooted in our history. For that reason, the State does in fact have the statutory power today to prohibit the carrying on of trade on a Sunday, if I may mention an example.

As long ago as 1838, the first law was enacted here at the Cape to protect the Lord’s day. In the Transvaal we find Act 28 of 1896; this is one of the Kruger laws. In Natal there is Act 24 of 1878. In the Orange Free State there is Ordinance 21 of the 1902. Studying these laws, one sees that attempts have always been made to protect the Lord’s day. Exceptions have been made since the earliest years, and in this connection one thinks of exceptions such as the sale of medicine and food on Sundays.

In 1964, a Select Committee of this House heard evidence on the practise of sport on Sundays, for example. The major churches with the biggest numbers of members in our country stated that any measure aimed at upholding and protecting the sacred nature of the Lord’s day, Sunday, had their wholehearted support.

The ordinances provide for the carrying on of trade on Sundays. What kind of articles can be sold on a Sunday? I want to single out a few of the more than 100 articles. It is impossible to maintain law and order in this connection. There is the sale of motor vehicle spare parts on Sundays, for example. If the intention was to help a person whose car had broken down along the road, I want to say that the practice is very far removed from this. Whom does one find at that firm on a Sunday? The man who repairs motor vehicles in his backyard.

Driving through Cape Town on a Sunday, one sees on the corner of virtually every street a sign directing people to a house which is on show. I have visited such places. With one single exception, those people were even prepared to sign a contract if I was prepared to have it postdated to the Monday. I do not think we should allow this in our country. I think we should have another look at these matters. I am thinking, for example, of the prohibition of the showing of films on Sundays and public holidays.

Finally, I want to request the hon. the Minister to give serious consideration to rewriting the legislation pertaining to the Lord’s day and to consolidating all related matters under one Act, for at the moment, the Lord’s Day Act is administered by the Department of Justice, the Shops and Offices Act falls under the Department of Manpower, and the Mines and Works Act falls under the Department of Mineral and Energy Affairs. As regards the sale of petrol on Sundays, which is provided for under the Petroleum Products Act, we see that this also falls under the Department of Mineral and Energy Affairs, while the question of trading on Sundays, falls under the provinces. I want to ask the hon. the Minister in all friendliness, honesty and sincerity to give very urgent consideration to consolidating this legislation into one Act, which would also facilitate the task of those who are responsible for the implementation of this legislation.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Witbank stated his case very clearly. It is a very relevant matter and I want to thank him very much for his contribution.

I should like to take advantage of the hon. the Minister’s invitation to make suggestions and express constructive criticism. I should like to refer to the immigration activities and in particular to the report of the study group on a strategy for industrial development, better known as the Kleu report. This report also emphasized the necessity for speeding up immigration activities. I should like to refer to paragraph 11.18 of the summary of this report. It reads as follows—

I agree with this standpoint of the study group. If one considers the reasons set out in the report, one cannot but agree with them. On pages 96 and 97 a complete résumé is given of the tremendous shortage of skilled labour in South Africa at this stage. Our situation is compared with that in other countries and reference is also made to the shortages in certain professions, given as percentages.

What is of particular importance is that as the figures mentioned in this report indicate, there is considerable shortage of skilled manpower in times of economic and stagnation, as we experienced in 1977. The fact that there are still shortages in these categories, even in times of an economic downswing and stagnation, cannot be attributed to a short supply of skilled labour from abroad. In the past few years the industrial countries have experienced tremendous unemployment, which went as high as 10% to 14%. The reason why we still have a shortage of these people, can only be, in the first place, that the shortages do not reach the department or, in the second place, as suggested in the Kleu report, that the procedure of finalizing applications for prospective immigrants takes too long.

Our immigration effort since 1961 has had tremendous results in supplementing our manpower shortages. Since 1961 742 000 immigrants have been admitted into the country. The net gain was 508 300. In the period from July 1981 to May 1982, in the professional category alone, we admitted 5 252 immigrants. The net gain was in excess of 4 000. During the same period, inter alia, 1 200 managerial and administrative staff and 2 900 clerical staff immigrated. This consequently made a tremendous contribution to easing our manpower shortage in the past. However, I want to suggest very earnestly that there is considerable room for improvement, particularly if we consider our past results. In 1966 we had 48 000 immigrants and in 1981 41 000. That was after the longest upswing phase in our economy in the postwar years. In real terms our gross domestic product was three times greater in 1981 than in 1966. This is an indication of our potential for accommodating immigrants.

A further important and relevant factor in this connection is that whereas Rhodesian immigrants only constituted 13% of our immigrant gain during the ’sixties, they constituted 42% of that gain during 1980-’81. These people did not come here because we attracted them to this country, but for security and political reasons. This proves yet again that at present we are drawing relatively fewer Europeans as immigrants than we did during the ’sixties.

A further indication of the priority we are at present giving to immigration activities is the percentage of our budget we are spending on this. Whereas we spent 0,43% and 0,42% of our budget on immigration during 1964 and 1965, respectively, this dropped to 0,4% in 1981. I believe that we should give far greater priority to our immigration activities. On the one hand we have to do this as part of our anti-inflation campaign. Owing to a lack of competition as far as skilled labour is concerned, rises in wages are tremendous, without any rise in productivity. This greatly stimulates inflation. On the other hand we also have to do so for economic reasons. In 1981 the country saved R480 million in the cost of training alone owing to the immigrants that entered the country. Immigration also has to be encouraged in order to provide less skilled persons with work. In his work situation one skilled immigrant directly provides an average of eight unskilled workers with employment opportunities. Indirectly his family provides quite a number of employment opportunities as a result of the increased demand they create.

A factor very closely related to this, is our lack of entrepreneurs. This is also a matter to which attention was given in the Kleu report. I believe that in this regard immigration can also make a major contribution. I maintain that at present our legislation in this connection is defective. At present section 4(3) of the Aliens’ Act requires that before an immigrant is allowed into the country he has to comply with certain requirements. He should not be “likely to be harmful to the welfare of the Republic” or “pursue an occupation in which … a sufficient number of persons is already engaged in the Republic”. However, we need people to start small business undertakings here. We also need people who can join their families to promote family business undertakings. This will definitely create employment opportunities in this country and will be in the interests of the country. The needs of these professions and occupations cannot easily be measured and it is therefore not easy for the Immigrants’ Selection Board to obtain the necessary facts to ascertain whether these people should be allowed in or not. I want to give an example. The Dutch bricklayers that came to this country 30 or 40 years ago are people who would probably not have been allowed into the country today. At present these people are building contractors and are creating hundreds of employment opportunities for unskilled persons.

I also want to raise another matter, namely the depopulation of the rural areas. I believe that immigration could make a major contribution in this regard. I think that the relevant legislation should be amended to make provision for this. If an immigrant wants to settle in the rural areas, he should be allowed to do so, irrespective of the fact that he is not well qualified and irrespective of the fact that he pursues an occupation in which there are more than enough workers, he should be allowed in. This section I have referred to, has remained unchanged since 1937. I want to suggest that this section be reviewed as a matter of urgency to ascertain whether it could not possibly be amended to bring it into line with changing circumstances.

I believe that our immigration action can play a major role in strengthening our country’s economy. I trust that the recommendations contained in the Kleu report will be complied with.

Mr. Chairman, in the short time available this evening I want first of all, to congratulate the hon. member Mr. Schutte on his speech. I think much of what he said, particularly in relation to immigration, was very true. Immigrants have played a great role in the development of our country over some period of time. I am sure they will continue to play such a role in the future.

I was shocked to a degree to listen to the hon. the Minister’s reaction to the report of the Catholic bishops relative to South West Africa. Mr. Chairman, I must tell you I am not a Roman Catholic myself, but I do know that Roman Catholic bishops are very responsible people. They would not have achieved their positions if they were not responsible persons. I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is his opinion that the Catholic bishops in their report are telling lies. Is that his opinion? Is he accusing the Roman Catholic bishops who submitted this report of untruths? If he is, I say that that sort of attitude can also create polarization within our country. There are many Roman Catholics in this land of ours who greatly respect their church and their bishops.

I did not attack the church. If you accuse me of attacking the church, you are twisting my words.

I am not accusing the hon. the Minister of anything. I am asking him whether he is accusing the Roman Catholic bishops of telling untruths.

I referred to a document.

The hon. the Minister is not answering me one way or the other. I think we must judge from the hon. the Minister’s silence on the issue as to what his beliefs are. He talked about one-sided documentation but there can also be one-sided analyses of documentation.

I want to talk today about the acquisition of South African citizenship. Following on from what the hon. member Mr. Schutte said, I want to draw to the hon. the Minister’s attention the fact that there are literally hundreds of thousands of people—I am sure he is well aware of this—who qualify for South African citizenship, who are living in South Africa today and who have not applied for South African citizenship. I was personally astonished during the Simon’s Town by-election when I stood in the main street of Fish Hoek canvassing for votes for Eddie Barlow, to find that about four out of every 10 people who passed me in that community could not vote because they were not citizens of South Africa. Some of them perhaps did not qualify, but I am quite certain that many did qualify.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.