Mr. Chairman, I should like to reply to the question put to me last night. Before doing so, however, I should first like to quote from the editorial of this mornings’s Cape Times. I have never quarrelled with the Press before. Even the English-language Press has always treated me fairly. We in this country speak of political honesty on the part of the Press. However, I want to ask whether it is fair that this newspaper prints a false, distorted report, a report which casts the SATS in a poor light. Is it fair that this should be done in this way? I shall just quote a brief extract as follows—

I do not want to read the other negative part of that. However, it carries on as follows—

We are saddled with 250 000 workers asking for salary increases. The writer of this editorial draws the conclusion that “bad management” is responsible for the problem. These 250 000 people are satisfied not to accept salary increases at this point because they concede that our economic situation is not favourable. Freight is unobtainable. There is an economic depression world-wide.

I reply to the question of the hon. member for Amanzimtoti. I tell him that of the R700 million worth of passenger tickets sold, R28 million worth were free. I reply in full to the hon. member but this is presented in this newspaper in such a way that the world must think that the SATS is guilty of mismanagement.

† Owing to a change in the definition of main line journeys the figures of 1982 are not directly comparable with those of 1978. The average distance travelled decreased from 851 km during 1978 to 250 km in 1982.

*The distance became shorter, and that is why another figure is now shown here.

† The average revenue per km travelled, however, increased from 4,2 cents to 6,6 cents.

*Mr. Chairman, I do not blame the hon. member for Amanzimtoti for this. The hon. member asked for these details by way of a question. He made no statement. He merely asked whether this was not perhaps the case. Now that is what The Cape Times makes of the matter. I repeat that I do not want to quarrel with the Press, but one really cannot win. I have never been badly treated by the Press. However, I do not tolerate such lies being told about me. I say these things because I want it in Hansard. I know that it will not be rectified by the newspaper itself. I am not calling for a rectification because I know that this will not be done. However, I should just like it to be in Hansard. I could not care about the last part of that editorial. I really do not care what it says. I quote again—

That is correct. That I shall tolerate. They must just leave the staff of the SATS out of it. However, I repeat that the financial problem is an economic problem. If they say that I have made a mess of it, well and good. That I shall endure. However, they must not make false statements about free tickets and come forward with the allegation that 50% of our passengers travel free.

The hon. member for Berea put a few questions to me. I now wish to reply to him.

† The hon. member pleaded for wharves to be made available to the ship-breaking industry. I should like to point out to the hon. member that the ship-breaking industry already enjoys a very special concession for the breaking up of ships in our ports. This is in the form of a licence for which they have to apply. Such vessels are exempted from ordinary port and berth dues.

*When a ship is broken up—and the hon. member referred to Taiwan—and the scrap iron has to be taken from there to a steel factory, the situation in Taiwan is such that this does not create problems. In Taiwan the steel factory is alongside the harbour. The vessel can therefore be broken up in the harbour and conveyed directly from there to the factory, which is barely more than a few metres away. In our country, however, the steel factory is 1 600 km from the harbour. Therefore, when a boat is broken up in Table Bay harbour, that scrap iron has to be conveyed to the steel factory at R40 per ton. Moreover, it must then be able to compete with steel manufactured in the interior. That is why such a project is not attractive in South Africa.

† The hon. member for Berea also referred to the SAA’s catering contract being taken over by a private concern.

A foreign private concern.

Mr. Chairman, I think it would be appropriate in this respect to have a look again at the hon. member’s amendment which he moved during Second Reading. I quote what he pleads for in the fourth leg of his amendment, as follows—

But you are doing the same things that you accuse The Cape Times of. You are giving the catering service of the Airways to a foreign undertaking.

I shall react to that in a moment. I just want to finish speaking first. [Interjections.]

You must not make the same mistakes that you have accused other people of.

Order!

No, Mr. Chairman, I am not making the same mistake. Moreover, the hon. member for Yeoville was not present in this House when the hon. member for Berea moved his amendment. He went to look for a few votes in Waterkloof, of course. He was absent from this House throughout. [Interjections.]

Order!

The hon. member for Berea now wants to tell me that we should have selected a local company. However, we do these things by way of tender. There is a local company that tenders. However, there are also three foreign companies that tender. In the meantime British Airways—and they, too, fill their aircraft with food—have decided to enter into negotiations with Marriott.

Why did they decide that?

There were various reasons for that.

† The contract with Marriott provides for the improvement of the facilities at an estimated cost of R2,7 million and the provision of meals, snacks, etc., for all SAA services— internal and international—ex-Jan Smuts Airport. Alternatives were considered but Marriott operates world-wide. It makes use of computers and all other sorts of modern equipment. Moreover the contract has resulted in a reduction in meal costs. We are saving money on each meal served because these people specialize world-wide and serve millions of meals daily.

[Inaudible.]

*Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Yeoville ought to say “thank you”. He gets special treatment when he flies.

That is correct, yes. I appreciate it.

We serve special food to the hon. member for Yeoville, Mr. Chairman. He must be grateful for that.

Will the hon. the Minister please tell me whether it is not a fact that British Airways withdrew their contract because the kitchens at Jan Smuts Airport had been condemned as being unhygienic. That was the question I put to him. Is it true?

Mr. Chairman, the statement that the kitchens were condemned because of hygienic reasons is absolute nonsense. British Airways changed for purely financial reasons.

Were there no complaints about the standard of these kitchens?

A few months ago a story of that nature was being spread around but when we investigated the matter we discovered that there was no truth in it at all. As I say, it was purely a financial consideration.

*We did what the hon. member asked. They move amendments and then when we do what they propose, they become unpleasant about it. In any event, I do not expect thanks. I am merely providing the facts.

I now come to the hon. member for De Kuilen. The hon. member for De Kuilen furnished a very clear answer to the hon. member for Berea. He told the hon. member for Berea that he agreed that it was our endeavour to let the State and the employer assist in reducing the deficit on passenger services. However, the hon. the Minister of Finance himself has financial problems today. We are dealing with this matter and soon as the economy recovers, I shall come back to tell the hon. member how the State is helping us to cover these losses.

You say that every year.

No, this is the second year I am saying it. We are speaking about big money here. The hon. member must bear in mind that if the hon. the Minister of Finance wants to cover the loss on passenger services, he will have to find that money somewhere. In any event, the hon. member is reasonable in his questions relating to this matter. I should very much like us to implement the Franzsen proposals, but commerce and industry do not want that. Nor does Assocom want it, because it also involves a contribution from the employers. Therefore, this matter must be dealt with very circumspectly and the hon. member for De Kuilen answered correctly.

The hon. member for De Kuilen also asked the hon. member for Berea when the hon. member for Berea would have begun implementing economy measures, i.e. earlier or later than we did?

You must ask the new General Manager.

When we saw that there was a problem in this regard we immediately began to institute economy measures. We were unable to do so earlier. The hon. member for Berea said: “We waited too long.”

I now come to the hon. member for Langlaagte. The hon. member said that we were evicting people from their houses. Where is the hon. member for Langlaagte? [Interjections.] The hon. member for Langlaagte and other hon. members moved an amendment yesterday and now he is not present when I want to reply to his questions. The hon. member for Langlaagte even lacks the decency to tell me: Man, go to blazes. I do not come and listen when you reply to me. [Interjections.] He lacks even that basic decency. He stood there shouting at us. He told us we were “fat cats”. We evict people from their houses. These are statement which appear in Hansard. He said that he had given R2 000 to his voters to come and see the Minister. He cannot give me a single name.

His heart bleeds for the poor people. What have I said in the past in regard to people who have a hard time of it? What have I said about the pensioners? The requests he made in connection with people being evicted from their houses is inappropriate to this debate. It is a matter for Community Development.

The hon. member for Kempton Park referred to the thorough planning that went into the purchase of new 747 aircraft. He also furnished a clear answer as to why Marriott was appointed to do the catering. He also inquired about excursion fares on domestic flights. I say that they are exceptionally successful. For example, the recently announced family promotion fare gave us 4 000 additional bookings in December. We are going to promote this by advertising.

I now come to the hon. member for Amanzimtoti. The hon. member put a vast number of questions to me. I am not angry at the hon. member because he did not say anything, he merely asked what the position was with regard to the passengers. His first question was in connection with the Blue Room.

† The Blue Room Restaurant was modernized to bring it up to normal restaurant standards. This was a step in the right direction and it is already picking up business. It is the intention to market this restaurant aggressively in the near future to increase its popularity. I can tell the hon. member that the December figures show that we made a profit on the restaurant. He also commented on the use of credit cards by certain senior officers to obtain a special rebate. These credit cards are only valid for occasions of the “business lunch” variety and has a certain amount of advertising value. As the SATS pay for the meal in any case, this does not affect overall profitability. Only 20 people have this special card.

*I do not have one; when I eat there, I pay. Some hon. member will probably say that the Minister can eat for nothing while the poor people have to pay. I do not have such a card; it is the 20 top officials who invite businessmen and take them to the Blue Room who have these cards.

† The hon. member for Amanzimtoti asked certain questions about the Blue Train. Blue Train fares relate to the quality of the service offered. The hon. membr complained about Blue Train fares, but by comparison travel on the Orient Express at R550 per person over the same distance—let us say a train running from London to Venice—costs almost 90% more than travel on the Blue Train. There is still a very strong demand for the Blue Train as reflected in the increase in passenger journeys, for instance from 2 169 during January 1982 to 2 448 during the corresponding month in 1983. We have changed the schedule of the train; it is now running seven trips in 14 days from Cape Town to Johannesburg as opposed to six trips in 14 days. We are doing much better business on this train. I still say it is a snob train. One pays for the privilege to travel in the Blue Train with all the comfort in the world.

Do you also travel on that train?

No, I do not travel on it.

After all, he says it is a snob train.

It is a snob train for the Helen Suzmans and the people who have lots of money. It is they who travel on it. The hon. the Minister of Co-operation and Development and I do not travel on it.

† The hon. member for Amanzimtoti asked me about the credit card system. I want to tell him that we are investigating the credit card system. I think there is a possibility of introducing it in the future.

The hon. member queried the amount of R28 million for staff concessions, but to that question I have already replied in full.

The hon. member once again asked about depreciation and the annual amount of higher replacement costs. I have a lengthy reply in writing and I shall send it to him. He also raised certain questions in the Select Committee, and I wrote him a letter. The hon. member is confusing two aspects. When one is a taxpayer one follows a certain formula when one calculates depreciation, but when one is not a taxpayer it is a different story altogether. However, the whole procedure is explained to him in the written reply which I shall send him. The hon. member argues from the point of view of an ordinary businessman, but in our case it is a totally different story.

The hon. member for Amanzimtoti advocated a better utilization of our assets at dry docks and suggested that we become more market orientated. Dry dock dues have been held constant for some time despite tariff increases throughout the Service. In addition special tariffs and other incentives have been introduced. Our dry dock charges for large vessels are now lower than those in a port such as Hamburg, West Germany. I think this will stimulate our shipping industry.

The hon. member asked a question about the effective utilization of a certain vehicle. He quoted from a certain paper clipping when he asked his question. Some of our vehicles do as much as 240 000 km per year. Many attain well over 1 million km before they are scrapped. Despite the current economic climate, our road transport service can be considered cost effective as it is showing a profit.

The hon. member for Amanzimtoti referred to the delay in finalizing the appeal of a certain station master against the decision of dismissal from the service. I have a list here of all the steps we take.

*First a report is required from the superintendent; then from the Station Master, then the person appeals and subsequently his appeal is referred to the System Manager. Every 14 days it is referred back. Then the case is referred to the Disciplinary Appeal Board. The person of whom mention is made here is a man who may be imprisoned. At the utmost, four or five cases of this nature occur in one year. The hon. member did not mention the person’s name but when he outlined the case I knew at once who it was, because this appeal came before the board. I knew at once what case it was. However, I do not want to mention the man’s name. This just shows how thoroughly we go into a case before coming to a decision.

Mr. Chairman, does the hon. the Minister think it a very cost-effective exercise when an investigation into a shortage of R17,10 costs the department R10 560 in wages or salary?

If two people arrive at the Pearly Gates one day and one of them has stolen R7,50 and the other R5 000, does the hon. member think the second one will burn and the first one not?

*Basically it is the same thing. Someone was guilty of theft and it is a sin.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North acted very positively. [Interjections.]

What did I do now?

Surely I am not being unreasonable when I say that the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg North took the trouble to go and look at our workshops. After all, he is calling for benefits for our workers. Surely what he is asking for are positive things.

As long as he does not criticize, it is all right.

No, he did criticize.

It was a fine, constructive speech.

Yes. [Interjections.]

† I went to see the orphanage in Pietermaritzburg, and I am glad the hon. member mentioned what we are doing there at that orphanage. He said that the money spent on building hostels for Blacks should rather be spent on family housing. Well, single hostel accommodation for Blacks is mainly provided for contract employees. It is essential that they be housed together for quick mobilization in cases of emergency such as accidents, fires or floods. As a group, they can also be more effectively protected in the event of civil unrest. Funds are also made available for family housing.

*The hon. member asked a reasonable question and I think he can be satisfied with what I have just said.

† The hon. member also asked that the Pietermaritzburg workshops should be converted into a specialized workshop where all the old skills could be concentrated. I have much appreciation for the hon. member’s views, but for various practical reasons it would not be possible to set up such a workshop at any particular centre. These old skills are still practised in all our workshops where a need does exist.

*The hon. member for Gezina discussed control of expenditure. He mentioned the steps we are taking daily. I simply cannot understand why it is that when the hon. member for Gezina was speaking, the CP’s continually interrupted him. What do they have against the hon. member for Gezina?

He knows. [Interjections.]

I do not really want to make any remark, but someone over there shouted “Judas Iscariot!”. I find that incredible. [Interjections.] I heard that last night. I hope Hansard picked it up.

No, that is untrue.

One cannot hate one’s fellow man so. Things do not work out like that. [Interjections.]

But you hate us.

The hon. member for Gezina referred to the commissioning of the Mabopane-Belle Ombrè train service and asked what the situation would be with regard to bus transport. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member for Koedoespoort must please contain himself.

According to present planning, the bus services will be used to provide feeder and distribution services and also to provide direct services. The buses will be used to bring the passengers to the station and the train wil convey the passengers from Belle Ombré to Mabopane. The trains will begin to run in July and we have arranged that the hon. the Minister of Education and Training, the hon. member for Roodeplaat, the hon. member for Gezina, officials of the SATS and interested Pretoria members of the House of Assembly will visit the line with us. We shall see whether we cannot do away with the bus service, because now there is a train service. In this way we can reduce the congestion on the roads.

The hon. member for Koedoespoort treated me in a friendly way. I say that frankly. He did not insult me as the other hon. members did. I reply to such an hon. member in a polite way. He put several questions to me. He said that tariffs for meals on trains should be increased. The tariffs were increased on 1 January. However, we are afraid that consumer resistance may set in. Moreover, often the people who eat on trains are people who have families and have a hard time of it. However, we shall go into the matter again. If the cost of the meal on the train is out of proportion to the cost of meals throughout the country, then we shall consider the matter.

Then, too, the hon. member asked a question about meals and alcoholic liquor on domestic flights on the SAA. He also said that we could reduce the cabin staff. Some of the other hon. members also referred to the serving of liquor on flights. I can only tell the hon. member what the serving of liquor on flights costs us. The cost of meals on every flight on which meals are served is R1,40 and the cost of free drinks is 73 cents per passenger. Then, too, a Boeing 737 has three members of staff while an Air Bus has eight. Now we have the problem that there is an international aviation organization that specifies the number of crew on an aircraft. They specify that there must be one member of staff at the door where the passengers leave to assist them in case of an accident. That is in terms of an international aviation agreement. Then, too, the assurance societies were also very concerned that our staff must be trained to help people to leave from the escape chute in an emergency. We cannot dismiss staff at will.

They are not there to serve food.

That is correct. The hon. member’s other question was whether we could reduce the staff. That is a reasonable question. He wants us to make profits.

Then the hon. member asked a question about pension benefits for older pensioners. I want to tell him that when we adjust salaries we shall also consider pensions. At present our financial situation does not permit an increase, but we shall consider improving the situation of these people because there certainly are pensioners who are having a hard time of it.

The hon. member for East London North discussed the important service rendered by the SATS. He said that the losses were temporary losses. He also said that no word of thanks was being uttered. He raised several matters and gave the impression that he wanted to make a positive contribution. He also referred to the improvements at East London harbour amounting to millions of rands. He also referred to staff relations. In addition, he asked that a VIP room be made available at East London. We shall consider that.

I now come to the hon. member for Park-town. He put several questions to me about Transmed. The consultation programme of certain general practitioners is really cause for disquiet. Transmed cost us far more than we expected, but this is a teething process. I want to say, Sir, that even among members of the House of Assembly there are 3% who are sly. [Interjections.] Yes, among all population groups one encounters a percentage that are sly. One also encounters Railway doctors who tell their patients that they must come and see them again. He then arranges five consultations, although the patient’s problem is merely a corn on the foot. I have had the experience of a man coming to tell me “they cashed in”. However, we are taking steps to give private medical practitioners the right. This is a good thing and the hon. member supported me in that regard.

As far as pharmacies are concerned, any member is free to go to any pharmacy of his choice. Because we have our own pharmacies we have saved our members R8 million. At present our staff are engaged in discussions with the Pharmaceutical Society with a view to coming to an arrangement in this regard.

The hon. member also referred to the accounts. Because this was a new process, doctors did wait for up to four months. At this point, however, the stage has been reached that accounts are paid fortnightly.

† The hon. member also inquired which hazards causing industrial diseases were referred to on page 68 of the General Manager’s report. We will furnish the reply in writing, but I will mention only a few. Some of the hazards are dusty conditions, fumes and noxious gases, dermatitis, spray painting, industrial deafness—we call it Prog diseases—and sand-blasting of castings.

*The hon. member also asked questions about the immunization of Transport Service staff. The cases mentioned in the report are merely those among the quarter of a million people who were not immunized during visits by our health inspectors. We shall also furnish the answer in writing.

The hon. member also asked a question about the acquired immunity deficiency syndrome.

The what?

The acquired immunity deficiency syndrome. It is a special problem. We asked the staff to be tested and they agreed voluntarily. The whole problem is solved. There were only the two cases which were mentioned in the papers.

*One’s resistance or immunity is broken down. The hon. member for Parktown will be able to tell the hon. member about it.

Mr. Chairman, I want to start this afternoon by talking about a very pernicious habit which appears to be to a degree encouraged in the S.A. Airways. This is a very antisocial habit, and I very much regret to say that the hon. the Minister is a victim of this particular habit. I refer of course to smoking on aircraft.

Do you still smoke?

No, I have given it up. For the information of the hon. member, I gave up cigarette smoking some 20 odd years ago. If one looks at a S.A. Airways plane in the air one will find that its left wing is slightly lowered because all the passengers who do not smoke sit on the left-hand side of the aisle. There are always a lot more of them on the left-hand side of the aisle than there are on the right-hand side, which is the smokers’ side on the aeroplane. Dividing the aeroplane in this way means that one is never sitting more than two seats and an aisle away from a smoker, wherever you sit on an internal flight of the S.A. Airways. I genuinely do not think that is fair on the non-smoking fraternity.

Let the non-smokers go to the back for a change.

If that hon. member went to the back, S.A. Airways planes would be flying very much tail down. [Interjections.]

I think it is fairly common practice throughout the world that smoking and nonsmoking areas are divided not lengthwise down the plane as we do it on internal flights in South Africa, but crossways. As certain number of seats in one section are for smokers and a certain number are for non-smokers. That is done on the Airbus and on the 747 on overseas flights. I actually see only one reason why we cannot do it on internal flights of the S.A. Airways. I would suggest that that reason is not a sufficiently good one and I would also suggest that we recommend strongly that S.A. Airways immediately switches to a better division between smoking and non-smoking space. Seeing that the majority of people are non-smokers, I believe that the front-end of the aircraft should be used for the non-smokers and the backend of the aircraft, which I regret would include the hon. the Minister, should be allocated to the smokers. The only possible problem I can see is that there are certain important people who feel that it is important to sit in the front of the aircraft even though they smoke. I would hesitate to suggest that the hon. the Minister is one of those. He is not one of those who is full of the sense of his own importance. But there are people who feel they want seats in the front and they also want to smoke. I do not think that it is right that they should be allowed to occupy those seats and I think that we should have them moved to the back of the aircraft.

On the international flights the situation is that the very back section of the Boeing 747s is reserved for the non-smokers while the smokers sit in more desirable seats further forward. Maybe we could switch that situation around for a change as well so that the non-smokers could sit further forward and the smokers could be restricted to the rear end of the aircraft.

I now want to move on to the subject of catering which is now done by Marriott Corporation. I have not as yet experienced the catering of Marriott Corporation, but I certainly hope it will be better financially for S.A. Airways. Perhaps for the benefit of hon. member for Umhlanga’s especially they will not serve mushrooms for breakfast. Perhaps they might serve that hon. member toadstools instead.

I want to refer to the service between Port Elizabeth and Cape Town. S.A. Airways have a number of flights that leave Port Elizabeth at 09h25 every morning of the week. These flights are connecting the only two declared metropolitan areas of the Government. We must therefore assume that the majority of business flying that is done amongst Cape Province people is between Port Elizabeth and Cape Town. The service between Port Elizabeth and Cape Town in the morning is totally unsatisfactory because every day of the week, with one exception, the flight stops at George. This means that having left at 09h25 one only arrives at the airport in Cape Town well after 11hOO and by the time one has got one’s luggage and travelled into the city and can start doing business, or whatever it is one wants to do, 11h30 is long gone. This cuts one’s business day in half. I believe this is extremely unsatisfactory for Port Elizabeth business.

Secondly, what is the economy of S.A. Airways stopping in George on this particular flight on every morning except Tuesday? If one looks at the number of passengers who are dropped and picked up since 1 November to 31 January one finds the following: The number of passengers picked up are: Mondays, 16; Wednesdays, 19; Thursdays, 14; Fridays, 22 and Saturdays, 14. The number of passengers who got off are: Mondays, 28; Wednesday, 35; Thursdays, 26; Fridays, 26 and Saturdays, 29. I submit that the vast majority of those passengers would still travel on S.A. Airways even if that service was not as extensive as it is. I am not suggesting that that particular service to George should be cut out altogether—and I am glad to see that the hon. the Prime Minister is here— but I do suggest that Port Elizabeth businessmen should be able to reach Cape Town at a better time in the morning on more days of the week than they are currently able to. I believe this is very important for the business people.

Now, what does it cost to make that stop in George? What does it cost SAA to come down from 30 000 ft, stop for 20 minutes or so, take off under full power, then climb up to say 25 000 ft on their way to Cape Town? What does it cost SAA to make that stop? Are the additional passengers that are picked up by SAA justification for the money spent on that particular stop?

More than Kimberley.

Possibly so, but I wonder whether Kimberley has as many flights in and out per week as George has.

Do not talk without your facts.

For the Prime Minister’s information let me say that I did ascertain how many people do get off and on this flight at George and let me tell the hon. the Prime Minister that I do not think that the number of people that use this flight on a daily basis justifies the stop on economic grounds.

I get the figure every day and you would be astonished to see them.

I would be astonished, indeed. The hon. the Prime Minister is good at not disclosing figures.

I now come to the Port Elizabeth airport, the H. F. Verwoerd Airport. In response to a question a couple of years ago the hon. the Minister, or his predecessor, told us that long-term plans did exist for the creation of international facilities at the airport at Port Elizabeth. This must be one of the few airports in South Africa where there are no international facilities. East London has them, Durban has them, Cape Town has them and so has Jan Smuts. In any event the hon. the Minister then said that there were long-term plans, if I recall correctly, to extend the runways to make them suitable for the widebodied Jumbo jets. I now want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he has got any further with those plans. Are they anywhere near fruition? Can he give us any sort of a time-span as to when this is likely to be done? There is a degree of concern within Port Elizabeth about the fact that incoming flights come straight over the beach front when the wind is in a westerly direction, then straight over flatland where there are lots of housing and where many people live. Aircraft come in straight over the densely populated residential area. Similarly when the wind blows in the other direction aircraft take off in that direction, once again straight over the residential area. With South Africa developing as it is the number of flights in and out of Port Elizabeth are as the years go by obviously going to increase and at some stage international fights too will take off from and land at Port Elizabeth airport.

In the circumstances I wonder whether the hon. the Minister and his department have given all these things due consideration and whether it is in the long-term going to be cost efficient to increase the facilities at the present airport or whether it would be a better idea to build a new airport somewhat further away from the densely populated area which surrounds the present airport. I submit that this is a question which is worth studying and that the hon. the Minister will give attention to it.

Mr. Chairman, there are quite a number of issues I want to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister. Before I do so I just want to refer to the hon. the Minister’s remark last night with regard to the hon. member for Kuruman and, of course, today again with regard to the hon. member for Langlaagte.

Mr. Chairman, this year the hon. the Minister and I will both have been members of this House for 17 years. Looking back over the years it should be clear to us that we have a long shift behind us.

I shall still be here for a long time to come.

I am very grateful that the hon. the Minister has been here for so long. However, if he wants to stay here for a long time to come he should rather come over and join the CP. [Interjections.] I want the hon. the Minister to realize that certain established practices apply in this House. It is so that sometimes hon. members cannot be present here because they have made appointments well in advance. So when an hon. member cannot attend the proceedings of this House, it is customary for him to send the hon. the Minister or one of the Whips of his party a note in which he offers an apology for his absence. The hon. member for Kuruman did that, although he had previously moved an amendment. According to the rules of this House he was courteous enough to write a note to the hon. the Minister in which he apologized for his absence. The hon. the Minister—and of course I can understand his being very tense these days—did not react to the amendment of the hon. member for Kuruman. Instead he referred to the hon. member for Kuruman in a way which did not become him and said certain things with reference to the hon. member’s absence.

The hon. member for Langlaagte, as the Whip on duty, informed me that he would be absent today and requested me to tender his apology to the hon. the Minister on his behalf. I did not do it and I shall tell the hon. the Minister why. I did not do it because when we did follow the correct procedure, the hon. the Minister simply took no notice of it. [Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. the Minister is quite capable of answering for himself. [Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, I just want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to the fact that that is the correct procedure in this House. The hon. the Minister should just realize that should it happen in future that for some reason or another an hon. member of the CP cannot attend the proceedings of the House, we shall not notify him.

The hon. the Minister of Internal Affairs also made a speech in yesterday’s debate about the Salem affair. However, his Whip notified me in advance that the hon. the Minister would not be able to be present here later during the day. The hon. the Minister of Internal Affairs made an attack on Dr. Treumicht. We did not hold it against him. He acted according to the custom in this House. Mr. Chairman, I say these things only in order to place them on record.

I now come to the three matters which I want to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs. In the first place I should like to refer once again to the three specific little railway stations in my constituency, stations to which I also referred last year. They are the railway stations Loftus, Rissik and Hartebeesspruit. There are certain issues concerning these three stations which I brought to the attention of the hon. the Minister last year. In our cities the incidence of thefts and assaults is increasing. This applies to Pretoria and vicinity as well. In 1981 there were 1 909 complaints of theft and 203 of assault. In 1982 there were 2 375 complaints of theft and 253 of assault. I believe that the majority of these assaults and thefts are planned and take place there because of the crowded conditions at these three specific railway stations in my constituency. I believe that the hon. the Minister will help us as far as the prevention of crime is concerned.

Of course it is necessary that we should once again take note of the conditions prevailing at those three railway stations. We must try to establish to what extent the area around those particular stations plays a role; for example, grass which is too long, etc. We must try to find out whether something cannot be done to improve the area to such an extent that intending criminals do not find it so easy to hide themselves there. That is the first matter that I want to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister.

The second matter for which I ask the attention of the hon. the Minister relates to our airports. I can describe our airways in three words, and they are safety, friendliness and responsibility. I believe that our Airways is one of the best in the world. However, there are a few things that I should like to raise with the hon. the Minister, particularly with reference to the Jan Smuts Airport. It is unfortunately the case that the toilet and ablution facilities there are not always as they should be. They are not always clean and tidy. I should just like to mention this specifically. Of course it also happens that the labourers who work there use those facilities—facilities which are actually intended for the travelling public—in such a manner that the people for whom they are really intended cannot utilize those facilities properly. I think it would be a good thing if we could give specific attention to that.

The last matter I want to bring to the attention ot the hon. the Minister is the question of a railway line and station at the town Hoopstad in the Free State. [Interjections.] It seems to me that the hon. members on the opposite side of the House who represent the Free State have not given any consideration to this matter before. [Interjections.] Hoopstad is a town which has already celebrated its centenary. It is one of the few towns that still does not have a railway line and a railway station. Over the years representations have been made to the Department of Transport requesting that attention should once again be given to this matter. I can understand that until now the department, after carrying out thorough investigations, has not seen its way clear to providing these specific essential and important facilities for this particular town. In spite of the difficult financial circumstances in which the SATS finds itself, I think the time has possibly come for the hon. the Minister to ask the local town council and other interested parties in that area to make their representations again in order that we may see whether this particular Free State town—all towns in the Free State are of importance—cannot get that railway line and that station built there. I think it is important in the times in which we live that each of our towns—especially since we have the situation that our rural communities are dwindling—should be able to rely on these railway facilities.

I shall content myself with these three matters which I wanted to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I am very sorry that the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central has just left the Chamber because I wanted to exchange a few pleasantries with him before utilizing the five minutes that I have in discussing the subject that I wish to raise with the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs.

Did you ask him to be present?

Unfortunately he has just stood up this very second and walked out.

Would you like him called back?

Yes, please. I shall talk to him then a little later. Let me turn first then to the hon. the Minister. [Interjections.] Apparently the hon. member is not being called back so I shall talk about him first. The hon. member quite rightly spoke about smoking in an aircraft. He was quite correct and I agree with every word he said. He is entitled to his opinion as I am entitled to mine. He is quite correct to say that one should put the smokers in the back of the aircraft, even if my hon. leader is one of those smokers. It is also quite correct that if the figure of Vause Raw is in the back of the aircraft, it will tend to fly tail down but that is very easy to solve. All one has to do, is take the head of the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central, only his head, and put it up front. That aircraft will then go into such a steep nosedive … [Interjections.] … that my hon. leader will have to get Nellie the Elephant to sit on his lap in order to trim it! [Interjections.]

I should like to help the hon. the Minister because I believe that he is being ripped off. I want to help him here this afternoon.

There is a large organization with its head office in Pretoria. This organization has its biggest single operation in Johannesburg, 36 miles, whatever it is in kilometres, away. It also has a lot of other branches throughout South Africa. There are also many branches in Johannesburg. I know for a fact that the SATS has geared itself over the years especially to carry goods for this organization. What has this organization done? It has deliberately slapped the SATS in the face. This organization has since July last year operated a service between Johannesburg en Pretoria twice daily carrying anything up to 5 tons on each trip. This happens twice daily in each direction. When one thinks of the legislation that came before us earlier this session, one can imagine that the hon. the Minister must be appalled at this. This represents possibly 20 tons of goods per day or 6 000 tons per year. It is the privilege of this House which permits me to mention the name of this organization across the floor of the Committee. Would the hon. the Minister like to know its name?

Yes, please.

I am sorry the hon. the Minister of Posts and Telecommunications is not here at present. You see, it is the General Post Office. When I asked the Post Office whether they operated a service between Johannesburg and Pretoria, they said yes. They have been operating such a service since 5 July 1982. They operate that service twice daily in each direction and they are able to carry 5 tons of mail on each trip.

I just want to tell the hon. member that the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central has returned.

Well, I want to tell the hon. the Prime Minister that I do not need that hon. member; I just need his head. Please, not all of him; just his head because that will weigh down anything. [Interjections.]

I believe there was a special tunnel built from the General Post Office to Park Station to cater for this mail traffic so that mail traffic could be conveyed from the post office straight to Park Station from where it could be railed straight to Pretoria. Here the postal services is ripping the hon. the Minister off. What is the hon. the Minister going to do about it? That, unfortunately, is the only matter which I can raise with him this afternoon, but I hope I have been of assistance to him and I hope he will be able to recover some of the losses.

Does the Department of Posts and Telecommunications have a permit?

Mr. Chairman, I shall refer firstly to certain remarks made by way of interjection during my speech yesterday. I am also referring to the remark made by the hon. member for Koe-doespoort when he made his speech after I had made mine. The hon. member said: Et tu, Brute? He was apparently referring to me, that is if I am reading his Hansard correctly. Those were the dying words of Caesar after Brutus had thrust the dagger into him. I assume that the hon. member in his capacity together with his party on that side is the dying Caesar. The only thing they have in common with Caesar is that both of them are dying. [Interjections.] If that is so, then I am the treacherous one, the betrayer, the Brutus, the one who thrusts home the dagger. I want them to tell me now whom I have betrayed.

No, you were merely a defeatist (hensopper).

Order! The hon. member for Barberton must withdraw the word defeatist (“hensopper”).

Sir, I withdraw it.

The hon. member for Gezina may proceed.

If they think I have betrayed them, then I am glad they think so. Last night the hon. member for Koedoespoort said: Et tu, Brute? I want to ask him who it was who used the dagger. Did I do it when I sought clarity and found clarity about my position in the NP?

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Are we now conducting a political debate or a debate on the S.A. Transport Services? [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member for Gezina is reacting to remarks made last night by the hon. member for Koedoespoort. I am allowing the hon. member for Gezina to react to them briefly. However, if the hon. member should go too far, if he should spend too much time on it, I shall act. The hon. member may proceed.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [Interjections.] Did I do that when I sought clarity, found clarity and decided to be part of the NP? [Interjections.] Am I a betrayer if I abide by the democratic decision of the Transvaal Executive Committee? Is it betrayal if I remain with the party I love and shall always love? [Interjections.] The hon. member for Koedoespoort must not mention “Et tu, Brute?”, because he knows nothing about it. Are he and his little group sitting over there not perhaps the Brutuses in this House? [Interjections.] Are they not the ones who thrust the dagger into the heart of the NP? [Interjections.]

Secondly I want to refer to a remark made by way of interjection and published in Hansard. It was an interjection by the hon. member for Jeppe during my speech. He said: “You are the ringleader (voorbok) at secret meetings”. However, he knows nothing about secret meetings, because that group would never allow him to be present at their secret meetings because they never trusted him. [Interjections.] They were afraid to have him there. Therefore he knows nothing at all about secret meetings. [Interjections.]

What meetings? Tell us.

I shall tell the hon. member what meetings. [Interjections.] It is on record that I told the Press on 3 November 1981 about a meeting that had been held. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me you want to rule me out of order. I shall therefore go into this further on another occasion. [Interjections.] Then the hon. members of the CP will have to tell me what their position is. [Interjections.]

You were just a spineless creature (papbroek).

Order! The hon. member for Barberton must withdraw the word spineless creature (“papbroek”).

I withdraw it, Sir.

Coming from those hon. members, I do not find it strange. I accept it with appreciation that they put me into that category. [Interjections.] I want to dispose of this matter now by saying that I have told the hon. the Prime Minister what the position is. I offered him an apology and he accepted it. I should like to do it once again in this House today, and with that I want to put it very unequivocally that as far as my position is concerned I am going to follow the road of the National Party in future. [Interjections.]

I should also like to thank the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs, the members of the Railway Board and the Management. I invited them to visit my constituency in connection with certain projects there. There are three major projects in my constituency which we are going to launch during the next few months, projects which, from their nature, have growing pains. The one concerns the Belle Ombrè station. The hon. member for Roodeplaat will elaborate on it further. I also referred to it last night. The other two are the goods shed and the container shed in my constituency. I should just like to ask the hon. the Minister a question in regard to the goods shed. Can we still accept—I should like to accept it—that the planned wall on the Francina side of that container shed will be built even before the container shed and the goods shed are put into operation? It is of the utmost importance to us to know that before it starts to function.

The second problem to which I want to refer briefly concerns the container shed and the access road indicated on plan PNW 353/L4/L5. The hon. the Minister will remember that I wrote a letter to him in this regard pointing out that the access road, as incidated on the plan, will be very difficult to accept because it ends in a White area. All I should like to hear from the hon. the Minister is whether the brigde over the Apies River, as indicated on plan PNW 353/A4/A107 is still being planned, whether it is possible to build that bridge there, so that we may have certainty about the traffic of commuters, of workers, who will come in on the Mabopane line and who will then have to get off the train at Daspoort station or at Mountain View station in order to reach the container shed. It is the only method to get the workers there. We cannot allow them to make use of Daspoort station and Fred Nicholson Street to reach the container shed. My plea is that the officials should help us in this regard and that the hon. the Minister should put everything into operation to build a bridge to facilitate the pedestrian traffic there with the help of the Pretoria City Council and possibly also the Post Office, because they also have interests there. This would greatly alleviate the position and would eliminate many problems. We shall be grateful if this could materialize.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Gezina devoted almost more than half of his speech to explaining, in an extremely heroic way, that he had relinquished the policy of separate development. [Interjections.] It really sounded as though he was still not certain whether the hon. the Prime Minister trusted him.

Yesterday you people insulted him for 10 minutes. That is the point.

I only hope that he will display that courage by going to Gezina and saying that he has accepted a mixed Government in South Africa.

Yesterday the hon. the Minister, referring to members of the CP, said that they must not go and lie in Waterberg and say that we are going to have an integrated society. He went on to say that he stood by the principles of separate development.

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Is the hon. member entitled to say that we must not go and lie in Waterberg? [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member for Pietersburg may proceed.

The hon. the Whip should have his ears syringed. I am referring to the unrevised copy of the speech of the hon. the Minister. I am saying that the hon. the Minister stood up here and said that he stood by separate development; that that was still his principle. However, that same hon. Minister rose in this House and said that the Cabinet was going to be mixed. If there is going to be a mixed Cabinet, what is the staff of the SATS going to look like? Then it is only logical that that will be the case there as well.

Order! Is the hon. member for Pietersburg referring to the reply of the hon. the Minister to the Second Reading debate?

Yes, Sir.

Then I ask the hon. member for Pietersburg to come back to the Committee Stage.

I shall leave it at that, Sir.

Withdraw everything you said.

I just want to say that on almost no level of society has this almost obsessive desire for integration and the systematic disappearance of segregation measures become so obvious as it has in fact done in the sphere of transport. In June 1980 I received a letter from the former Minister of Transport Affairs concerning a computerized reservation system for mainline passenger trains. Hon. members on the opposite side of this House will now tell me that I was still a member of the National Party then. That is true, but I nevertheless objected, and the hon. the Minister is aware of it. He wrote—

The Minister went on to say that he had seen fit to notify me of the decision which was in line with the Government’s standpoint concerning the systematic elimination of factors causing friction in the government sector. With all due respect, there were no factors causing friction present when first-class and second-class passengers of every population group had their own reservation facilities and offices. In fact, a well-equipped station for Black people was built on the opposite side of the railway line at the time when the NP still believed in vertical segregation as a meaningful arrangement, for the sole purpose of eliminating friction. However, what has happened now? Through the then Minister of Transport Affairs, the Government has very clearly changed its policy of vertical segregation to a policy of horizontal segregation. There will now be a definite separation of first-and second-class passengers on the one hand, and third-class passengers on the other, regardless of race or colour.

What effect does this arrangement have in practice? During peak periods before or after long weekends there are sometimes 100 or more Black people waiting to be attended to in a space smaller than this open space in the Council Chamber. No White inhabitant of Pietersburg has any chance whatsoever of getting close to that point where business is conducted. What would have been a meaningful solution? Allow me to concede at the outset that for economic reasons it is not possible to install a computer terminal at the White station as well as at the Black station. I also wish to concede at once that many more Black passengers than White passengers have to reserve their seats and purchase tickets at that specific point. The computer could then have been installed at the Black station and reservations on the White side could have been done through a departmental telephone.

What has now become of the station which was originally intended to serve the White inhabitants of Pietersburg? A mass of Black passengers has been moved from the opposite side of the railway line to this side. They even have to share the platform facilities with other population groups. At times this creates an unbearable situation for the voters of Pietersburg. What is more, the White voters of Pietersburg have no real platform facilities on the Pietersburg station at present, since the trains stop in such a way nowadays that the Black passengers can use the platform, while the White passengers have to board and alight from the trains without the aid of a platform.

The same crowded conditions are to be found in other public places under the jurisdiction of the Government. Since that party accepted the philosophy that meaningful segregation measures are exactly on a par with discrimination, the White voters of this country are becoming increasingly threatened and crowded out in their own living space, recreational areas and places of employment. I wish to make a plea for more meaningful segregation measures. The hon. the Minister said that he stood by separate development, in respect of station facilities as well. This has become an absolute farce. Segregation no longer exists at stations, as is the case at Pietersburg, and that party will undoubtedly discover at the polls that the Whites in the Northern Transvaal, and particularly in the constituencies in which elections are about to take place, will not accept this situation.

Mr. Chairman, the speech of the hon. member for Pietersburg really deserves very little comment. It simply goes to show once again that the hon. members of the CP allow no moment or issue to pass without trying to gain a short-term political advantage from serious matters. Not once did that hon. member come to the matters which the hon. the Minister raised here, he merely made a political speech here. As far as the hon. member is concerned, I shall leave it at that.

No, let him have it for a little while longer.

I should like to associate myself with the hon. the Minister in that when he rose here this afternoon, he touched on an extremely important matter with regard to The Cape Times. When I read The Cape Times this morning, I expected the hon. the Minister to react in the way in which he did, in fact, react here today. Not only today, but in recent times, The Cape Times has been displaying a mentality which is not in the best interests of South Africa. And since The Cape Times is the mouthpiece of the PFP, this newspaper is simply displaying the mentality of the official Opposition in this House. With all due deference to the editor of The Cape Times, I should very much like to suggest one thing today and that is that he should perhaps take note of the quality of his correspondents in this House and see to it that when they sit here, their ears are at least attuned to their brains, and that they listen to what an hon. member says in this House and at least afford him the courtesy of reporting him correctly.

I should also like to avail myself of this opportunity of raising one extremely important matter in my constituency. The hon. the Minister paid me a visit in Kroonstad. Kroonstad is situated at the crossroads of the railway network in South Africa, from south to north and from west to east. There we have a daily passenger traffic of between 2 500 and 3 000 people. At Kroonstad we cope with 33 449 goods trains and 10 950 passenger trains annually, and 91 500 outgoing and 68 200 incoming parcels are dealt with annually. Last year the revenue of the SATS at Kroonstad amounted to R9,3 million. The number of people on the staff of the SATS there is in the region of 16 738. Of course, this includes Whites and Blacks.

In respect of housing, there are 500 families who live in departmental houses and 400 families who live in their own houses, houses obtained through the Transport Services scheme. In other words, 900 houses in Kroonstad are occupied by officials of the SATS. And now I come to the point I should like to make. We are aware that in view of this year’s budget, one does not make requests lightly. But on the other hand, the hon. the Minister and the SATS have been accused here of not planning. In fact, there has been planning. This has emerged clearly in this debate. I am raising the matter so that timeous plans can be made for a new station at Kroonstad. Of course, we are aware that it may take many years before a new station can be constructed there. Nevertheless, I wish to bring it to the attention of the hon. the Minister that the present station at Kroonstad was constructed in 1892 and that since then there have been no alterations or extensions, except for the addition of a modern office for the police. As I have said, the planning of such a station will take a long time. However, of the utmost importance is the fact that if it is decided in principle to reconstruct the station, it cannot be done on the same site as it stands at present. This does not fit into the future planning for Kroonstad. On the other hand, there is an extremely suitable site available for a new station, and I can assure the hon. the Minister that if, in fact, it is decided in principle to build a new station, the city council will plan matters so that this site will be reserved for the new station. I would appreciate it if the hon. the Minister would take note of this. We are aware of what the financial position is, but we do ask that this be considered and that negotiations with the city council take place in the near future. I believe that this is in the interests of the community of Kroonstad.

Mr. Chairman, before raising one or two matters with the hon. the Minister I want to suggest to him that he need not worry too much about the suggestions made to him about smoking. There is no one who is more intolerant towards his former mates than a reformed smoker, nobody more self-righteous, more correct and holier-than-thou than the person who has managed to give up smoking. I suggest the problem is quite easy to solve. On the widebodied aircraft the front 15 rows can be put aside for smokers and the rest for non-smokers. I submit that would be a perfect solution.

I now want to return to a matter the hon. the Minister dealt with yesterday, i.e. the question of concessions to servicemen. I started asking for these concessions in 1967 and through the years have made representations to four different Ministers, and I do not withdraw one word of my appeals. I believe that the granting of these concessions was long overdue. However, that is not the point. The point is that where people travel on concessions or on a free pass there should be a proper recording of the source to which that journey should be debited. Similarly with servicemen who, let me say, are the last group in South Africa who should be expected to make up Railway losses. What must be done then is that losses on journeys on concession fares must be calculated and be debited to the Department of Defence. It is as easy as that. In heaven’s name let us not talk of taking away these concessions, not after all the years we have battled for them. In this respect there is no conflict between the hon. member for Amanzimtoti and myself. It is simply a question of bookkeeping.

As regards pensioners and family concessions this falls in a different category. These concessions are designed to attract customers to fill trains when they are running half empty. It has taken a long time for some of these ideas to percolate through. I looked it up and found that it was in 1975 (Hansard, col. 2201) that I first raised the question of issuing open tickets like those known as “Euro-rail”. It has taken eight long years to get through to the hon. the Minister and his department. In July this year it is going to be brought into effect. These are attractions aimed at getting people to use trains when trains cannot be filled. There are also other suggestions we made. I cannot deal with all of them now but I predict that one day these will also be adopted.

One of these is parking facilities on suburban services aimed at attracting the motorist to park at suburban stations and then to use the commuter service. Other suggestions abound in Hansard, suggestions for attracting people to use the train services. One cannot compare a serviceman’s concession to concessions which are designed to attract traffic to rail and air.

Mr. Chairman, I now want to return, and again without an apology, to a small group, a handful of people who I believe have suffered injustice. I raised this before but as there is a new aspect to it I now raise it again. I refer to employees who were dismissed either for refusing transfers or for alcoholism, after 20 years of service. I have a letter from the hon. the hon. the Minister in which he assured me that he had misunderstood the position in regard to alcoholism. However, he says—

Mr. Chairman, in one sentence the hon. the Minister expresses sympathy and an assurance; in the next he says the legal position has been ascertained. While, that may be the legal position I believe it is totally unjust and unfair. Since then there have been cases where the regulations have been changed so that now at least they get interest refunded to them. In one case, on 1 November 1982, an employee who was dismissed for alcoholism had refunded to him R15 400, i.e. his pension contribution of R3 800 plus interest. But in the other half a dozen cases which I submitted only their contributions were refunded, without a cent of interest. In one case an amount of R5 600 was refunded which, if interest had been added, could have been in the vicinity of R20 000. All of these employees have been refused a reduced annuity. This is all on record and without taking it much further I would like to raise only one new aspect. The Federal Council of Staff Associations was due at its meeting this month to deal with a resolution asking that in cases where fraud or theft is not a factor a welfare report be obtained on the employees’ domestic, financial and health circumstances. Well, not in one of these cases was a welfare report obtained, and I believe this should be the first step and not a legal opinion to determine how much you can prevent an employee getting. These people get a letter in which they are informed that they can choose whether they want a reduced annuity or not, but in which it is simultaneously stated that it will not be recommended. In cases in which it is recommended by the head of the particular person’s department it is subsequently rejected by the Administration. Even when the Select Committee on Pensions has recommended it, the hon. the Minister or the department opposes it when it comes to this House. I am making a renewed and sincere appeal for this injustice to be removed.

The other issue with which I want to deal is one that has been dealt with. That is the catering services. I want to look at it from another angle. I will not deal with the flight kitchens. The situation is that the catering services are now losing more and more money. There is talk of a possible loss of some R4 million.

In 1954 there were 125 dining cars, 48 refreshment rooms, plus Sassar plus Parliament plus the flight kitchens and the refreshment rooms at the different airports. The staff numbered 3 000 and it was administered by one catering manager. Today there are only 50 dining cars, 10 refreshment rooms plus Parliament and the President’s Council. However, there is one manager, two assistant managers and six superintendents to handle a staff of 800 … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I think the hon. member made his point. [Interjections.] I am sorry, Mr. Chairman, that the hon. member for Rissik is not at present in the House. However, he was trying to canvass votes among the voters of Hoopstad this afternoon. I want to put it to him that in the process he grossly insulted the local authority of Hoopstad. In my opinion, by referring to the Municipality of Hoopstad as a town council, the hon. member for Rissik only proved his abysmal ignorance. He should realize that in the Free State there is a vast difference between a full-fledged municipality and a town council. [Interjections.]

I now want to give the hon. member for Rissik a piece of good advice. He should leave the Free State alone. The Free State has no need for exiles from Pretoria. [Interjections.]

One of the most important points of discussion during this debate was the general increase in tariffs in spite of the economic recession in which the country finds itself, and the resultant depressing effect this will also have on the economic activities that will stem from the tariff increases, as well as the effect this in turn will have on the prevaling high rate of inflation.

In the first place it is important to consider the external factors which gave rise to the present unfavourable financial position in which the SATS finds itself. During the past few years accelerated salary increases led to a more rapid increase in labour costs per unit. Price increases were further stimulated, in the first place by a continued sharp rise in internal expenditure, in the second place by an upward adjustment of controlled prices and in the third place by a considerable decline in the value of the rand.

Food prices rose sharply in 1981, and they even hardened further and gained further momentum during 1982, while the prices of general retail commodities also rose more rapidly. As a result the consumer price index rose on average by 14,5% per annum over the past two years, and although revenue rose satisfactorily during 1981-’82, operating expenditure was considerably higher, mainly as a result of these increased prices I have just referred to.

Capital projects are financed both from internal and external sources. During the past year the average interest rate on loans raised by the Transport Services rose from 9% to 12%. These larger loans and the higher prices of loans led to financing costs of R682 million for the 1981-’82 financial year, a figure which was 8,3% higher than the R630 million for 1980-’81. The poor performance of the rand against the dollar also resulted in more rands having to be paid for fuel spares and transport equipment in particular, which had to be purchased abroad. The surcharge of 10% on imported goods also hit the SATS hard. The drop in exports and the drop in domestic transport owing to both the worldwide and domestic recessions also had an adverse effect on the revenue of the SATS. Domestic production decreased and goods traffic declined drastically. For example, the traffic tonnage of high-rated traffic decreased from 14,5 million tons in the period from April to November 1981 to 12,8 million tons in the corresponding period last year, in other words, a fall off of 12,5%. In the same way low-rated traffic decreased from 66,5 million tons to 59,5 million tons, in other words by 11,1%. By the end of 1982 export traffic had dropped 13% below the level for 1981, while import traffic decreased by as much as 37%.

The increasing entry of road carriers to the transport market has caught the SATS in a financial pincer. Although the share of the SATS in the total transport market has shrunk to approximately 40%, the SATS has to create almost 100% of its infrastructure at high cost whereas this is not the case with road carriers. That is why it is the aim of the SATS to try to overcome the unfavourable financial position at two levels, namely in the first place to increase revenue without making tariff adjustments and, in the second place, to decrease expenditure. A strategy was discovered to tighten up control over expenditure and to increase productivity at all levels by the more effective ultilization of labour, equipment and stores. In the third place it was planned at the same time to try to increase the share of the SATS in the total transport market. In the fourth place, major capital projects were analysed critically and scaled down, while some were even delayed. In this way, for example, the capital provision for mechanical handling equipment for the next two years has been drastically curtailed and in the same way drastic cuts have been made in capital expenditure on trade facilities. In order to be able to compete more effectively with private road transport contractors an overnight goods service has been introduced between Johannesburg and Durban. This service involves two trains that travel back and forth every day. A similar service has been introduced between Johannesburg and Cape Town and these trains reduce the transit time by as much as 30 hours.

In spite of strong market-orientated efforts to regain its rightful share of the traffic, as well as drastic cuts in expenditure, the financial position worsened and the SATS had no alternative but to introduce an earlier general tariff increase. In order to lessen the effect of this tariff increase on certain sensitive goods, a differentiated scale was also introduced on 1 January 1983. The proportions of tariff class 1 to 15 has been reduced by narrowing the gap between the various tariff classes in an attempt to bring unnecessary low-rated traffic closer to cost and to reduce cross-subsidization. For example, ores and minerals have been reclassified so that these goods can make a greater contribution to the costs involved in conveying them. At the same time the tariff on maize meal which is a staple food of a large part of the population has only been increased by 10%, in spite of the low cost coverage on this commodity. The tariffs for the transport of certain types of vegetables have also only been increased by 10% in order to assist the housewife. The tariffs for the transport of livestock have not been increased, and in view of prevailing poor agricultural conditions, I should like to express my thanks and appreciation to the hon. the Minister and the SATS as a whole for this much appreciated decision.

There is no doubt that the SATS is having a hard time, but I am sure this problem is temporary. I am confident that the SATS with its well-trained and motivated labour force is equipped to meet the transport requirements of the South African economy when the next upswing in the economy occurs.

Mr. Chairman, while the hon. Minister is sitting at the rear of the aircraft, I want to begin in any event by thanking him for the reply he gave this afternoon to the speech I made yesterday evening. I am particularly grateful for the explanation he gave in connection with the staff on aircraft, but I have a feeling the hon. the Minister misunderstood me slightly; that was only an afterthought. The main argument I raised concerned the question of whether we should necessarily provide food and drink on domestic flights although they are short flights and seldom last longer than two hours.

I shall deal with that on Monday.

This afternoon I should briefly like to discuss the Koedoespoort workshops, at that section of the SATS. I want to refer to them for three reasons, but before I do so I want to tell the hon. the Minister that I made a point of not joining the tour the Select Committee on Toll Financing of Roads undertook to Plettenberg Bay today because I wanted to be here when the hon. the Minister replied to the debate. We are not all the way the hon. the Minister thinks we are. He thinks we do not like to be here when he replies to us. I specially did not go on that trip so that I could be here to receive his reply.

There are three reasons why I should like to give this Committee a glimpse of the Koe-doespoort workshop. In the first place I want to advertise that workshop. It is probably one of the largest, most modern and best equipped in the world. It is a workshop complex one can always feel proud of. I am particularly proud to have such a complex in my constituency.

The entire workshop complex which covers a large area, consists mainly of six large workshop blocks. There is the machine workshop block, the boiler workshop block, the assembly workshop block, the truck repairshop block, the vehicle repairshop block, and the foundry block. These blocks can be subdivided into approximately 18 smaller workshops.

If we look at pages 42 and 44 of the Brown Book, we see that capital provision is being made for further improvements, enlargements and extensions to the entire complex in various ways. As far as I am concerned, what is at issue is not the amount of money being voted for these extensions and improvements, but what is to be done with that money. I am specifically interested in the improvements and enlargements to be made; they will increase the value of this workshop complex. They will make the complex so much more effective and will enable it to provide a much better service to the SATS. This workshop complex employs thousands of workers. I think that in general those people work under pleasant conditions. When one visits the place one does not hear complaints from the people working there about the facilities that are available. I think the facilities are of such a nature that the workers are happy to be able to work under such pleasant conditions. Many of those workers work long hours, long shifts, and because the facilities there are so good, this in fact facilitates the position for them when they have to work those long shifts, those long hours. I want to express my thanks and appreciation on behalf of those workers for the facilities that have been made available to them at those workshops.

To a great extent those workshops are self-sufficient. Repair work is done on electric and diesel locomotives, coaches and trucks that do service throughout the country. The steel foundry there provides the steel components for the maintenance of the rolling stock of the Railways throughout the country. It is a large undertaking. The gas generator, boiler room and compression chamber provide sufficient gas, steam and pressure to meet all requirements, and I feel the chemical and metallurgical laboratories are among the best any Railway institution in the world has. I also think that the improvements which are going to be made are the best and that they will greatly improve these laboratories. On behalf of the workers there I welcome the improvements to the railway lines in the huge workshop complex.

A vast improvement there, a large expansion, is the training centre for telecommunication apprentices. However, I cannot omit to mention that I appreciate the fact that provision has been made in this budget for an extremely important matter, namely the provision of alternative power supply.

With these few ideas I feel that I have given this House an idea of how modern and excellent this workshop complex is and of the service rendered there on behalf of the SATS. [Interjections.]

However, I want to put a question to the hon. the Minister. In view of what I have said, would he not undertake to invite the Transport Services study groups of all the parties to visit that complex during the recess? I think it would be a very enjoyable day for hon. members of this House who belong to those study groups if they could visit that complex and see all the things I have described briefly to hon. members, if they could get an idea of what really goes on in the SATS complex. However the visit must please not be arranged to last only an afternoon. One really cannot see the entire place in one afternoon. One merely tires oneself out without seeing everything one should have seen. If the hon. the Minister therefore wants to arrange such a visit, could he please set aside an entire day for it? It would really be worthwhile.

Before I conclude, I just want to ask the hon. the Minister—he need not elaborate on this now—since it is such an important complex, to ensure that the security there is always of such a nature that we need never be caught napping by terrorists or anything else. I mentioned this last year as well. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Koedoespoort did not say anything politically contentious today and I therefore do not consider it necessary to react to his speech. He discussed matters of interest to his constituency and his voters in a constructive way and I am sure the hon. the Minister will know how to react suitably to what he said.

The first matter I should like to touch on briefly concerns the protection and safeguarding of passengers on trains and at stations, particularly on suburban sections. I assume that to a lesser or greater extent thuggery is a phenomenon which occurs in all metropolitan areas. However, here in the Peninsula we are experiencing an increasing incidence of thuggery on suburban trains. From the point of view of the secruity and protection of passengers, this is a matter causing concern to many people.

In some cases the culprits would seem to be well organized. They would also seem to work in gangs. In any case, their modus operandi is ingenious and well planned. They gain access to a train and leave it again at strategic points, i.e. at points which fit in with their strategy and modus operandi. Between such well-chosen points they terrorize and rob innocent passengers on the train and then disappear just as quickly from the scene at the next station. It is alleged that some of them jump off the train before it has come to a complete halt at the station and then make off with their loot before the police can apprehend them. Even if it is possible for the victim to attract the attention of the ticket examiner or the conductor on the train and to report the incident to the officials while the train is still moving, it is understandable that it is physically impossible for these officials to do anything about the matter.

Of course, the protection and safeguarding of passengers on our trains is the task of the S.A. Railways Police. However, it is a task which is probably difficult under such circumstances and makes great demands of these law enforcement officers. The question is—and this is a matter the hon. the Minister can surely give attention to—whether these law enforcement officers have the best equipment available to them to enable them to carry out their task as effectively as possible. I understand that consideration is at present being given to equipping Railway police better for their task, inter alia by making use of a two-way radio link or so-called walkie-talkie sets between train and station staff. In the case of thuggery or theft reported to the ticket examiner, for example, that official can at least ensure by radio that the police will be ready to take action when the train arrives at the next station.

I am also aware of the fact that to introduce an effective system or walkie-talkie radio links in the Cape Peninsula between train and station staff, the SATS will have to get the kind co-operation of certain bodies. To enable such a system to function effectively, it will be necessary to erect a radio antenna at a strategic place and at a certain height above sea level. The obvious place for this, considering the topography of the area, would probably be on the slopes of or even on top of Table Mountain. It is a fact that people in the Cape, particularly conservationists, are guarding jealously against the erection of any structure on top of or on the slopes of Table Mountain which could be considered an eyesore or which could in any way mar the mountain or its environs.

I also understand that King’s Blockhouse on the slopes of Devil’s Peak has been identified by experts as a very suitable place for the erection of the necessary antenna. In addition to other bodies whose approval may have to be obtained in this connection, presumably including the hon. the Minister of Community Development, the co-operation of two conservation bodies, the National Monuments Council and the Table Mountain Preservation Board, will also have to be obtained. I am happy to be able to report on good authority that the necessary co-operation will be readily obtainable from both these bodies. They feel that in this specific case the matter has merit and those bodies would like to be associated with the implementation of this system. I expect the National Monuments Council even to be enthusiastic about the system, because it could be an additional asset for them with regard to control over that old building, which in other regards is causing both it and the Table Mountain Preservation Board a great many headaches. I can assure the hon. the Minister that both those bodies are only too willing to co-operate to make it possible for him and the S.A. Railways Police to protect and safeguard passengers on trains in the Cape Peninsula properly.

I should also like to say a few words about another aspect of the economizing programme of the hon. the Minister and his department. During the Second Reading I dealt with the question of the rationalization of passenger train services, and I should now like to say something about the saving in respect of overtime and Sunday time. Because we are experiencing difficult economic conditions, the SATS, as we learned from the hon. the Minister, had to try and economize on various other services. For example, train and shunting services over weekends, and particularly on Sundays, were curtailed in order to cut down on overtime and Sunday time. These cuts assumed considerable proportions. In November of last year in respect of overtime there was a saving of 26,38% on the budget and in respect of Sunday time a saving of 41,02%. As far as all the services are concerned, in the period 1 April to the end of November 1982 there was a saving of 12,53% in respect of overtime and 22,47% in respect of Sunday time.

There is another side to this matter as well. I am not only thinking of overtime and Sunday time, but also savings in respect of incentive wages. Our Railways staff, particularly the artisans, naturally became used to this additonal source of income and it was a fairly great sacrifice for them when this source disappeared. In many cases this amounted to as much as R200 a month or more for these people. This has made a vast difference to their monthly income. I should like to address a word of praise to the Railways workers, because there were so few objections and complaints from them. I, who have many Railway workers as voters, have to attest to the fact that this matter was very well received. I think this testifies to the inherent loyalty of these people. This testifies to an integrity that deserves to be recognized and praised. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Sondagsrivier dealt with specific issues. He dealt with the necessity for savings, he dealt with the loyalty of the Railway staff and these matters are all pertinent and of importance.

What I want to discuss briefly today is the hon. the Minister’s statement where, if I remember correctly, he said “praise your friend in public and take him to task in private”. Is that more or less what the hon. the Minister said the other day?

It did not help.

I was glad that the hon. the Minister said that because it explains a lot of things to me. It explained to me why senior NP members never get fired, no matter how badly they do their jobs. They just get moved to the side or they are made ambassadors, presidents or members of the President’s Council, but they never get fired. To praise your friend in public no matter what a mess he is making of his job is a poor approach. I believe that when somebody is chosen for a responsible position he should be big enough for the job. He should be prepared to take criticism. If, as the hon. the Minister said today, he justifies criticism. He should expect praise when things go well and he must be prepared to take the responsibility when they go badly—even for bad luck. Hon. members must just cast their minds back to the two days of debate that we have had and to the type of speeches we have had to listen to from hon. members on the other side of the House. They praised, they were humble and showed due subservience to authority. Is this the hon. the minister’s precept in action, to praise somebody in public and criticize him in private? Is the hon. the Minister criticized by his colleagues in private? I wonder. I think it is a sick situation. Government members appear to adopt their stance on an issue like the transport budget without any objectivity whatsoever. One hears a hymn of praise from the other side. What is even stranger, is that they seem to expect a similar sort of reaction, a similar sort of speech, from this side of the House, and they are disappointed when it does not come. What Government members must get into their heads is that when we criticize the SATS it is not because we believe that the SATS is a bad organization. There is no organization of the size of the SATS that can be right all the time. It must make mistakes and it must make errors in judgment and we criticize it because we have respect for the people who run it. We believe that they are man enough and big enough to use that criticism and to accept it as objective and an analysis of what they do. Perhaps they can improve their own performance by its use. Those hon. members frequently seem to think that they are honour bound to protect an invalid.

We have been told again and again in this debate and elsewere that the SATS is a business enterprise. I should just like to examine that contention for a while. If the SATS were a business enterprise, this would be its annual general meeting. The hon. the Minister would be the chairman of the board of directors reporting on the last year’s results. He would be trying to explain to his shareholders, who would be all the members of this House, why his prediction of profit just happen to be nearly 40 times worse than he had originally anticipated. He would certainly be the most fortunate company executive in the whole of the country because of all his shareholders faced with results like this, only a small handful would be in the least bit critical and the others would be praising him to the sky. I draw this little parallel, Mr. Chairman, in order to highlight its manifest absurdity. However, I should like to take this little parallel one step further. If one were at such a shareholders’ meeting one would not focus on the losses to the exclusion of everything else. There are many other concerns that one would have and should have in circumstances like these because, there is no organization that is going to estimate correctly every time, and every organization, from time to time, is going to be caught up in circumstances which are not necessarily of its own making. What would one be looking at in circumstances such as these? I think, Mr. Chairman, one would be looking to see how top executives, the chairman and his board, were approaching the particular problems facing them. One would want to see what their attitude was in these particular circumstances. I think that from this point of view the last couple of days could only have caused a shareholder serious concern. In fact, he would probably have sold all his shares by now.

Most definitely.

We have had no indication that the hon. the Minister is prepared to identify, face up to or discuss the real issues and the real problems facing the SATS. The fundamental problem is to decide what the role of the SATS is in the South African society. Is it a business enterprise? To what degree is it an instrument for the execution of social, economic and political policies? These things we have not discussed. What is its importance strategically? Obviously it must be of immense strategic importance. Can it be used to tax certain sectors of the economy and to redistribute those taxes to other sectors of the economy, which is what happens with cross-subsidization of rates? If it is going to do that, how is this redistribution monitored and controlled? Should it not always operate at cost except in those areas where central Government says that for social, political or economic reasons it must operate below cost? In those circumstances, where should it get its subsidy from?

I maintain there is only one place from where it should get that subsidy. That is from central Government itself. Then the load will be borne evenly by the whole population of the country.

Should it welcome or resist the efforts of the private sector to expand into fields such as motor transport services? Only when this type of question has been thrashed out and clear, definitive answers given will senior executives in the SATS know exactly what their goals are and what their role is. Until then they will have no idea, for example, whether loss of market share is bad. Loss of market share could conceivably be good, specifically when the Government has laid down an absolute hard and fast policy that it wants to promote private enterprise.

Furthermore, a definitive answer should be reached to the question of whether the development of a private sector haulage industry is a threat or whether it should be an objective of SATS that private enterprise should develop road motor haulage. I submit the chief executives do not know because their objectives are not clearly defined for them.

The next question is whether SATS must pay for Gorvernment socio-economic and political schemes by way of cross-subsidization; and if so, who should bear the tax burden of loaded rates. That is important as it could do more harm than good to the economy. The fourth question is whether an objective should be to keep SATS predominantly White, controlled by Whites and operated by Whites, or whether a specific aim should be to integrate Blacks at all levels, and as fast as this can be done without disrupting and undermining the efficiency of the organization.

In this connection, in my previous speech, I asked the hon. the Minister whether he would give me a breakdown of those figures into Whites and non-Whites. The total is 259 000. I would be very grateful if he could give me that breakdown in respect of SATS employees.

110 000 Whites.

Then it has gone up since last year?

No, it did not go up.

Well, it was 101 000 last year, if I remember correctly. I am speaking subject to correction but this is something we can check. In short, there can be no adequate motivation and there must be confusion unless the people in an organization know against what criteria they are going to be measured. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in reply to the hon. member for Walmer I want to say that we do not object to criticism from the Opposition. What we object to is that they do not suggest an alternative in the criticism they do in fact voice. The hon. member for Walmer asked a number of questions which should be replied to in a debate of this nature, but he did not give a single reply to the questions he put.

Allow me for a moment to branch off onto a side-track. In the little town of Del-portshoop, far to the north of here and far, far to the west of where he now finds himself, the lives of Dr. E. L. Grové, the present General Director of the SATS, and I crossed for the first time in 1942, when he was in matric and I was a young high school teacher. He has not disappointed the great expectations that were cherished of him as a person of high quality.

In spite of his teacher! [Interjections.]

I know what he is made of and I know that the SATS is in good hands. Congratulations, Bartjie.

And now to get back onto the main lines. It has been provided in legislation that the SATS shall be managed according to business principles with due regard to the economic interests and total transport requirements of the Republic. The SATS must therefore be accepted as and operated as a commercial institution, a business. The goods this body offers for sale, is transport with its transport facilities and everything associated with this for people, animals and goods. Fortunately or unfortunately the SATS does not have the sole right to the sale of its goods. As a matter of fact, the SATS irrevocably committed itself a long time ago to moving towards free enterprise in the transport market and consequently, as a business undertaking, it has to have regard to the fact that it is required to operate in a strongly competitive transport market. To be able to keep going in this milieu where no quarter is asked or given, the SATS will have to concentrate wholeheartedly on an aggressive marketing campaign to maintain and even to enlarge its rightful share of the transport market. What is of importance in the competititive open market is that the SATS may not rely on statutory protection for a poor service.

In order to market its goods successfully it is necessary to determine what the nature and magnitude of the existing transport market in South Africa is with possible future extensions, contractions or changes in its nature. In this marketing compaign cognizance must be taken of the fact that the present day user of transport requires an (a) quick (b) regular and (c) reliable transport service. He also requires a service which, if possible, operates from door to door without trouble and with the minimum amount of handling.

The point of departure must therefore be as far as possible to adjust to the client’s needs and to render services at competitive prices, because low transport costs in all spheres, i.e. people, goods and animals, still remain of the utmost importance for the general economic welfare of a community and of a country.

In order to meet some of the requirements of the consumer public, the SATS has already introduced the following services of which cognizance has been taken with great gratitude. In the first place, a 240 km radius express container service has been introduced from Johannesburg to all the rail routes. This service ensures that all containers loaded into trucks before 14h00 in Johannesburg, will be off-loaded early the next day at places like Rustenburg, Wit-bank, Pietersburg, Bloemfontein, Newcastle, Kimberley and Breyten. In the second place, overnight services and shorter transit times have been introduced between the Rand and Durban and the Rand and Cape Town. Consignments for this service can be handed in at the end of the working day and delivery takes place on the day of arrival. What is important is that no additional tariffs are levied for these services.

In the third place, transit times of goods trains in general have been adjusted. In the fourth place, the package service has been rationalized. Unnecessary handling has been eliminated. In the fifth place, internationally our neighbouring countries have their own particular railway problems, and for that reason adequate facilities have been created at Zeerust and Messina so that goods can be loaded from railway trucks onto road transport trucks and vice versa.

We are grateful to know that the present General Manager has already given an undertaking that the marketing of the commodity his firm is offering for sale will receive high priority. The most important single factor which will determine the success of the total marketing action, is and will always be, people: The man behind the counter, the man at the loading pen, the man in the goods shed, the porter on the platform, the man on the bus, will determine whether the SATS will be able to sell its goods to the transport consumer.

Some staff members are natural and highly successful salesmen. In this regard I am thinking of the checker at Warrenton. Every time I go to load my car, I wish I could do so again the next day. However, successful salesmen and saleswomen are not merely people who are happy in their jobs. That is also true, yes, because it is important. Considering the world in which we live, and the keenness of the competition in the transport market, I want to make an appeal, if training courses have not yet been introduced for such courses to be introduced to train salesmen to sell the transport commodity.

Mr. Chairman, I do not have any criticism to level at the speech the hon. member for Kimberley North made. I emphasized the matter he has just advocated very strongly in my Second Reading speech. We therefore do not differ regarding the matter of a powerful marketing campaign by the S.A. Transport Services.

As a regular user of mainline trains, I should like to bring certain matters to the attention of the hon. the Minister. I am confining myself to mainline trains because I mostly make use of mainline trains only I hope that, where applicable, the hon. the Minister will cause investigations to be made and that he may be able to accept some of the suggestions I am going to make. With the exception of the Drakensberg and the Blue Train, a train ticket for a journey over a specific distance and in a specific class costs the same for all mainline trains. But the traveller does not enjoy the same facilities on all these trains, and that is actually what I want to discuss. The question that arises is whether differentiated fares for these trains is not justification. Let us take the Orange Express and the Trans-Karoo as examples. On both these trains the passengers enjoy the comfort of air-conditioning in the dining-car and the sitting room. Passengers can therefore enjoy their meals and refreshments under pleasant conditions. On the same mainline from Cape Town to De Aar—I am merely using this as an example—there is a train which has no dining-car. No refreshments can therefore be purchased on that train, but the passengers pay exactly the same fare as on the other trains I referred to. Even neatness, discipline and general attitude can vary from train to train. On some trains the passengers therefore have all the facilities to make their journey pleasant, whereas on other trains, where they must pay exactly the same fare, they have no facilities. Let me use my part of the world as an example, the area from De Aar to Johannesburg. There one also has a train without a dining-car, and in that case there are no refreshments for sale either. During the summer the water in the bottles in the corridors becomes so hot that one cannot drink it. I believe this problem could easily be solved if we considered this situation in a practical way. Perhaps arrangements could be made for refreshments to be available at stations— at least between De Aar and Kimberley. At Kimberley trains stop for quite a while, coaches are shunted and people have an opportunity to purchase refreshments like cool drinks, etc. I am thinking of stations like Kraankuil, Witput and Belmont, where the train stops right opposite the hotel in any case. One finds that when the train stops no-one actually knows how long the train is going to remain stationary. Only those daring people who are prepared to risk breaking their necks for a bottle of cool drink or a bottle of beer jump off the train and run to buy the cool drink or beer, at the risk of missing the train. I just want to ask the hon. the Minister whether it would not be possible to arrange for trains to stop for a specific time at stations where refreshments can be purchased—I am now thinking of cool drinks in summer—so that the passengers will know: At this station, for example Belmont or Witput, the train stops for 10 minutes; that gives me enough time to buy a bottle of fruit juice or whatever to quench my thirst. I think this is a practical solution and I should like the hon. the Minister to consider it.

I also made representations to the hon. the Minister in connection with another matter. The hon. the Minister will remember that he also gave the green light to the building of the platform at the Orange River Station It is very inconvenient for older people who are travelling north as it were to struggle up the steps of the train from the veld. A temporary arrangement has been made for mobile steps, to be available there, but I have found that usually the steps are either not there or there is no one who knows how to handle them. I understand that we are living in difficult economic times, but I still want to ask him to see to it as a priority that this platform is built when money is again available.

There is also a problem at Noupoort station as regards the length of the platform. Trains arriving from De Aar stop on a bend and the back coaches do not reach the platform, so that passengers must climb down the steps which can also cause problems for elderly and sick people. In this case all I am asking is that the platform be lengthened for the convenience of the passengers.

At De Aar station friction is sometimes caused when a train arrives at a station and stops so that the third-class passenger coaches are opposite the waiting-rooms for White women. The third-class passengers then disembark, and if they must wait for another train they occupy all the benches in front of these waiting-rooms. We have already had incidents there in the past and I think it is surely possible to arrange for trains to stop opposite the waiting-rooms of the relevant passengers. If the waiting rooms are too small, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to see whether he cannot make further provision for third-class passengers as far as waiting-rooms are concerned. In this way we can have this separation so that friction cannot arise as has in fact happened in the past.

At certain stations there are also subways or thoroughfares that are really not neat. I do not want to mention the names of stations, but I think that it may be a good idea if the Management were to emphasize in a circular to the various station masters that they should take care of this situation. Perhaps the Railway Police could also be told to keep an eye open because there are people who seem to have the wrong idea about purpose of and the use of such thoroughfares.

Mr. Chairman, during the limited time available to me I should like to raise three issues with the hon. the Minister. I regret that the time is limited because I might not be able to explain my point as clearly as I would have wanted to. I do however hope that I will be able to get my points across to the hon. the Minister.

The first point concerns overbooking. This happens from time to time. The latest incident was last Friday night in Cape Town when 14 passengers were left stranded when a full Boeing flew off to London. The 14 passengers concerned were obliged to spend the night in Cape Town before they were flown to Johannesburg on Saturday to connect with a flight to London, arriving on Sunday, 24 hours late. There is only one direct flight per week from Cape Town to London and I believe it is therefore incumbent on the SAA to ensure that no overbooking takes place.

The passengers were taken the next morning.

Yes, but they arrived in London 24 hours late. One passenger, according to The Cape Times of Saturday, made a booking last June. Overbooking is an enormous inconvenience to passengers and to the people who are meeting them on the other side. One can understand that because of the need to fill our aircraft and because of the number of no-shows, SAA will wish to take steps to maximize the full seat capacity on flights. However, the practice of overbooking, where alternative flights are available, might be acceptable at places like Jan Smuts Airport where in the event of a plane being sent off with a full load there are other planes flying to the same or nearby destinations on which passengers can be booked. The inconvenience passengers were put to in Cape Town last Friday night is unacceptable and I trust the hon. the Minister will announce that he is to take steps to ensure that this does not happen again.

The second issue I wish to raise is the question of fares to and from Europe. South African residents travelling to London have no option but to pay the fares laid down by IATA and enforced by the SAA. But what is the position of foreigners living in London or eslewhere and travelling to Johannesburg? They simply have to walk into one of the many agencies or bucket-shops that operate in those cities and purchase a return ticket to South Africa for as little as the equivalent of R660. I have a number of cuttings from The Observer of 27 February and The Guardian of 2 March containing advertisements of numerous agencies in London offering cut-rate fares to South Africa. Those fares compare with the cheapest Apex fares available in South Africa of R1 188 in the high season and R919 in the low season. These Apex tickets have to be booked and paid for at least 30 days in advance whereas in London one can walk into these shops the day before one is about to fly and pay the R660 and fly out to Johannesburg.

London is a bit bigger than Johannesburg.

Sure. But why should foreigners obtain travel benefits from airlines which operate pool arrangements with the SAA while South African citizens are denied this opportunity? With the present over-capacity situation in the airline industry discounting of tickets below approved rates is a widespread phenomenon, except in South Africa. The hon. the Minister should seriously consider allowing discounting of fares within South Africa. This, I suggest, will increase passenger loads considerably.

I want to raise a third issue. I wish only to touch on this issue because I regret with the limited time available to me I will not be able to develop my argument fully. I want to refer to the question of apartheid on the S.A. Railways. Some years ago the hon. the Minister’s benchmate, the hon. the Minister of Co-operation and Development, declared that apartheid was dead. However, what Minister Koornhof did not realize was that it was alive and well and living, among other places, on the S.A. Railways. That is not the case in the Post Office because in post offices the signs and partitions have been taken down throughout the country and people are free to mingle as they wish. Apartheid is no longer an irritant to thousands of South Africans making use of the facilities offered by the Post Office. This might be an answer to the hon. member for Pietersburg who has a problem with his station. The answer would be to abolish apartheid. The hon. the Minister should be aware of the way that South Africans are able to mix. If he looks at his own Airways, there is no apartheid in the sky. There are no signs hanging in the aircraft segregating Whites from Blacks. Why then are they segregated on the railway platforms and on the trains? I was appalled when I travelled to Parliament from Johannesburg to Cape Town earlier this year at the large number of Blacks who sit on the platforms at stations all the way through the Karroo. They sit on the platforms and they are provided with inadequate facilities.

People are not segregated and they mix quite freely not only in our post offices, but also in our banks, in our supermarkets and on the pavements of our streets in our cities. Why then do we not take down the signs on the platforms and in the trains? One of the by-products would be the elimination of irritating and humiliating instances of discrimination. I want to bring two instances to the attention of the hon. the Minister.

The first concerns a letter that appeared in The Cape Times on 10 February this year, written by Mr. Pieter de Jong who spent a day at the cricket watching a game between the South Africans and the West Indians. He talks about two Coloured men who got into the carriage with him and asked him whether their presence would upset him. He assured them that they were welcome, but the ticket inspector who entered shortly afterwards told them to leave immediately. One man, perhaps foolishly, remonstrated, whereupon the inspector became violently abusive. Ignoring the presence of womenfolk, he manhandled the men towards the door, all the time verbally abusing them in the foulest and basest of terms. Mr. De Jong said that he attempted to remonstrate but was cautioned and told to keep out of it. He goes on to say what a hypocritical bunch we Whites are in extending the hand of friendship to visiting Black sportsmen while completely lacking common Christian decency in our dealings with local Black South Africans. The reply by the public relations officer stated that it was the policy of the SATS to provide separate facilities, but as the name of the inspector was not provided, there was regrettably nothing that could be done about it. I suggest that if we did not have apartheid on the trains and on the platforms humiliating instances of this nature would not occur.

The second incident concerns the wife of the Transkeian Minister of Justice, Mrs. Let-laka. This appeared in The Sunday Tribune of 13 February this year. She states that she was assaulted by a Mr. Van Rooyen when she and four others boarded the trans-Natal train in Johannesburg. She said that she and the others got into a first-class coach on first-class tickets. She told the court that she had been unaware of separate facilities in South Africa. She said further—

I submit again that if we did not have these separate facilities these humiliating instances would not occur. Some time ago the hon. the Minister of Foreign Affairs was reported as having said that he would not die for a sign in an elevator. Now I wonder, what about a sign on a railway station? If they were taken down stupid incidents of this nature could be avoided and a genuine contribution to race relations could be made. One of the reasons why the hon. the Minister should honestly and genuinely look at this is because the overwhelming majority of his customers—and one can call them that— are Black. I submit that he should give them better consideration than he has in the past.

Mr. Chairman, I am not going to react to the speech of the hon. member who has just resumed his seat. I think the hon. Minister will do that. However, I want to react to the speech of the hon. member for De Aar. He complained that passengers had to run for bottles of cooldrink. I wonder if the hon. member can remember the days when there were no toilets on the train, and when records that were broken when passengers had to get off at stations.

I rise merely to thank the SATS for a particular service they have rendered in my constituency. However, before I get to that, I just want to re-emphasize a few well-known facts once again, by way of introduction. Firstly, the SATS have reduced the time and the distance between people, cities and towns, as a result of the efficient transportation systems. Furthermore, the transportation services of the SATS also serve as a medium through which contact can be made with people outside the borders of our country. In that way they bring us into direct contact with our main trading partners. Secondly, it also has a stabilizing effect on transportation systems in South Africa; not only the transportation systems that are directly or indirectly utilized for the benefit of our neighbouring states, but also as regards the provision of employment opportunities, because among the more than 250 000 workers of the SATS there is also a large percentage of workers who come here from across our borders to earn a living. In these times, when we are accused of destabilizing, we must also emphasize the stabilizing effect of the SATS with regard to these two factors. To use the English term, I can say that the SATS “caters” for all population groups and for all classes of our population.

One can choose according to one’s financial abilities what transport system one wants to use. There are bus routes that cross the vast areas of the interior. Then we also have the modern Jan Smuts Airport. Nowadays we can use a second class bus ticket or a first class ticket on one of our Jumbo jets.

As a result of the comprehensive service rendered by the SATS, it is inevitable that they are saddled with the problem of the under-utilization of facilities, and this inevitably leads to financial losses. However, the question now is: What is the most important and the primary function of the SATS? Its first and most important function is, of course, service. Secondly, it tries to be self-sufficient in order to be financially self-sufficient; as opposed to private entrepreneurs, who only pick out the paying services and then operate them. If it is to be the case that the SATS must make profit its first priority, then we must tell that to the hon. the Minister. Surely he can then terminate a lot of services and dismiss a whole lot of people. To work with profit as a motive, is surely not a strange thing for the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs. We need only look at his own undertaking, where everything is planned and is done with profit as the motive.

Today I should also just like to address an invitation to those members of the Press who criticized the hon. the Minister in such an uncalled-for manner. They would do well to go and see how things are done in the hon. the Minister’s own undertaking with profit as the motive. [Interjections.]

The SATS also renders special services in states of emergency. Thus the SATS is at the moment busy conveying drinking water for about 80 000 small stock in the Gordonia constituency in the Kalahari region. The situation there is such that a large part of the Kalahari does not have subterranean water, and the cattle farmers are consequently dependent on water pits. Rainwater gathers in the pans and is then let into the water pits, whence it is pumped out for use on the rest of the farm. As a result of the low rainfall those water pits are empty, and during the past summer farmers were compelled to convey water from neighbouring farms.

Now the existing points from which water were obtained have dried up completely because of the drought, and the transport facilities of those farmers were insufficient to convey enough water for their livestock over the long distances. We then turned to the SATS, and I must add here and now that it is the friendliest and the fastest service that one can ask for; the service we got from the SATS.

We contacted the SATS on the morning of Wednesday, 12 January. That same afternoon the transport system was approved in all its stages. The tanks were prepared in Pretoria on the Thursday, and on the Friday—less than 60 hours after we made our representations—the first water was delivered in the drought-stricken area in the Kalahari—a distance of more than 800 km from Pretoria. From 14 January to 3 March three lorries with a capacity of 22 500 l each, with seven drivers, were constantly ferrying water, day and night, in this area. Moreover they were operating on the worst roads imaginable. They convey the water over distances of 120 km on average, and up till now they have already conveyed 300 loads, representing a total volume of water of 6,5 million The total distance covered by these vehicles is already 50 000 km. On this occasion I should like to pay tribute to the road transportation section, because by rendering this emergency service they saw to it that 80 000 animals would not die of thirst. They also saw to it that quite a number of farmers in that area will not be ruined financially. On this occasion we should therefore like to appeal to the farmers of that area as well as the farmers in the rest of South Africa also to support the SATS and the road transportation section in particular in times of prosperity, so that by doing so they will strengthen the hand of the SATS to carry on rendering this excellent service in our country.

Just one last point in respect of which I should like to comply with a request of the hon. the Minister, and that is that we should criticize him when we are alone and thank him in public. At the end of last year the hon. member for Humansdorp loaded a young Jersey bull calf on the train for me, and on receipt of that calf I found out that the railage for the calf equalled the cost of a return ticket from Upington to Port Elizabeth.

You do not load a Jersey onto a train. You shoot it. [Interjections.]

In a private conversation with the hon. the Minister I told him that I was very glad about the service his organization was providing to us in the Kalahari, but that I did not think that the young bull should pay for that service he rendered to us there. [Interjections.] I now want to thank the hon. the Minister in public, because when the hon. member for Humansdorp heard what I paid for the young bull’s railage, he gave me the young bull for free. [Interjections.] When I went to pay the railage that day, the lady behind the counter said: “Meneer, u betaal so baie want u betaal vir sewe bulletjies”. Now I just want to ask the hon. the Minister whether I can transport the rest of the seven bulls at a later date. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, at the very beginning of my speech, in the few minutes at my disposal I ask your permission to obtain a rectification from the hon. the Minister. It concerns a reply he gave me last night. I believe the hon. the Minister understood me quite wrongly and I just wish to rectify this matter. I refer here to a request I put in regard to price control in the chain stores. It is very clearly stated in my speech as reported in Hansard. I said—

I then asked that price control be imposed in that regard. As far as tariff increases are concerned, I praised the hon. the Minister for having made a good concession with regard to the transport of food. I also asked that he kindly suggests to his hon. colleague that this matter should be investigated. The hon. the Minister did not reply to me then, but did discuss farming matters in general terms. I myself am a farmer and I know that the farmers get nowhere near what they ought to. What troubles me, is what happens to the product on its way from the farmer to the consumer, who buys it in the tins. One does not know what happens there, but the fact remains that the consumer has to pay through the nose.

Order! I am sorry to interrupt the hon. member but he must co-operate with me. The hon. member is now discussing something which really has nothing to do with the Transport Services debate. I request the hon. member to assist me.

Mr. Chairman, this is something that troubled me. I am merely calling for a rectification from the hon. the Minister because he misunderstood me.

I shall rectify it on Monday; it seems to me I did misunderstand you.

During the Second Reading debate many subjects were discussed and now I, too, would like to raise a matter of great importance, viz. a station for Alra Park. We know that a route for a new railway line from Sentrarand is being planned and, I am informed, that it will pass through Balfour. If my information is correct, a great deal of progress has been made with regard to the planning of that railway line. Nevertheless I should like to ask that provision be made in the planning for a station at Alra Park, with a view to the future.

I should also like to ask for a loop from Nigel station. It is halfway to Nigel. I am referring to the railway line which goes to Vorsterkroon and then turns away to the left. An extension must be built that would link up with Alra Park. Then there would be a railway line from Nigel station to Alra Park and on to Balfour. When the existing lines were planned before 1935, some extremely poor planning was done as far as Nigel station and the railway line are concerned. That is why that railway line is not a paying proposition today. The place is 2 km from the nearest place in the town and 3 km from the central part of the town. If it were possible for the passenger section to be transferred to Nigel, this could mean that the line could be very profitable. Alra Park is a rapidly growing place. When one thinks of planning one does not only think in terms of the following year; one thinks in terms of the years ahead. That, Sir, is something I should very much like to suggest.

As regard the railway line from Sentrarand to Balfour, I believe that this will be a very important stimulant in that whole complex. I believe, too, that it will be of considerable significance for the farmer, the manufacturer, the trader and everyone else. I am really grateful to hear that progress is being made with the planning. I ask that if possible this request should not be shelved. As soon as the economy of the country permits we must not simply allow this planning to lie on the drawing board; we must put it into effect.

Mr. Chairman, I received the following telegram in the course of this debate—

I take it that this can be considered relevant to the debate.

Everyone is telling the hon. the Minister to “save, save, save”, but I want to point out that the way in which hon. members of the CP sometimes deal with this commodity is enough to make one believe that we are down to our last emergency supplies in this country.

What has that got to do with the SATS debate?

By the way, I want to welcome that hon. members to my constituency; I do not know what he intends to do there, but I understand that he is coming to live there. He probably has some unholy plans involving me there.

Are the Coloureds going to walk on your stoep?

Unfortunately the hon. member has now intervened before I could reply to him. I want to concede today that I bow to his superior knowledge of toilet facilities and related matters.

The hon. members on the other side have been using a chicken hawk technique on us in this debate. I do not know whether they know a chicken hawk. It must be one of the most graceful birds and one of the handsomest to observe in flight. It floats up there, suspended on the air currents, and then it drops from the sky like a stone, landing among the chickens and catching them left and right. That is precisely the technique …

Are you a chicken?

Yes, and what are you? You are a goose. [Interjections.]

Order! The hon. member for Parktown must withdraw the word “chicken” and the hon. member for Heilbron must withdraw the word “goose”. [Interjections.]

I withdraw it, Sir.

Certainly, Mr. Chairman, I withdraw it. What did the hon. member for Nigel do here yesterday? The hon. member for Nigel has a reputation in this House as a man who makes extremely technical speeches. The first speech I heard him make here was about Florence Nightingale, a fine, well-prepared, technical speech. Yesterday he began in the same way, but all of a sudden he launched a lightning attack on us. He said that we cared nothing for the Afrikaner, for the Afrikaner worker and so on. [Interjections.] He must remember that we see what they are doing in Afrikaner circles, and we are waiting for them. We shall deal with this matter in due course.

Read my speech. [Interjections.]

I do not have time now to go through the boring exercise of reading that hon. member’s speech.

You are only talking about things which you know nothing about. [Interjections]

I should now like to come to the hon. member for “Laelaagte”. [Interjections.] While the hon. the Minister was speaking, he referred repeatedly to the more than 20 000 workers who were no longer in the employ of the Transport Services. Of course, the number of employees is down from what it was at the same time last year. He spoke as though those workers were, firstly, all Whites, secondly, all working in Langlaagte and, thirdly, all living in Mayfair. That was the implication of his remark. However, I wonder how many of those workers were pensioners or absconders—as the hon. the Minister indicated—and how many of them live in his area. The hon. member said that he ground his teeth, he wept for a man because a man could not live on a pension of R430. However, what does he say about an ordinary pensioner who has to live on R134 a month? What does he say about that? Why does he not weep with us about that? What is the difference?

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Is it your ruling that the hon. member is allowed to reply at this stage to a Second Reading speech?

Order! I did not hear the hon. member for Rissik objecting when the hon. member for Langlaagte made that speech during the Committee Stage last night. [Interjections.] The hon. member for Heilbron may proceed.

Unfortunately, the hon. the Minister is not here at the moment. While the hon. member for Langlaagte was making his speech yesterday, I realized that there was a great waste of labour during the discussion of the S.A. Transport Services, for while that hon. member was making his speech, all five of those clever, learned hon. gentlemen on that side sat there writing down his speech, and if that is not a waste of precious time, I do not know what it is. However, I want to go further.

I also want to refer to the speech made by the hon. member for Pietersburg about all the facilities for Whites that were lacking. However, the hon. member for Pietersburg should pay a visit to the Johannesburg station. He should go and have a look at what is going on there. I do not want to go into the matter in detail here, but if he paid a visit to the Johannesburg station, he might change his mind.

I just want to refer in passing to another problem which the hon. members of the CP are causing in this House. I am referring to the quick footwork. Yesterday the hon. the Minister of Internal Affairs quoted an article in which Dr. Treurnicht said that he was never briefed at Cabinet level on the Salem affair in 1979. When did the Salem affair take place?

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order: Are you going to allow the hon. member to raise the Salem affair in the House at this stage?

Order! I ask the hon. member for Heilbron to come back to the point under discussion.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask you, with all due respect: Was the transportation of the oil, and the discharging of that oil from the Salem, undertaken by the SATS and was the oil conveyed by means of the pipeline of the SATS? If so, it is relevant to this debate, for then it has a bearing on the SATS.

Order! Is that a question which the hon. member is putting to the hon. the Minister?

I am putting it to you, Sir. [Interjections.]

The hon. member may proceed.

Since it formed part of the activities of the SATS, I want to point out that the Salem affair took place in December, when the Cabinet did not sit. The first subsequent sitting of the Cabinet was in January and February of 1980, and Dr. Treurnicht was informed at that time.

Order! The hon. member must come back now to the point of discussion.

Sir …

It seems to me that you have no speech to make.

Sir, I congratulated the hon. member for Barberton yesterday on the commendable way in which he reacted to the plea made by the hon. member for Koedoespoort with regard to commodities on aircraft.

Do sit down.

I do so with pleasure. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, in his reply to the Second Reading debate the hon. the Minister said that I had made a fine speech. I am glad that the hon. the Minister thought so. It is just a pity that he did not give me fine answers. In my Second Reading speech I said that the SATS was certainly the only large employer which still had a ratio of only 1,34 Black employees for every White employee and asked why that was the case. I asked whether the salary structures in the centre block of the SATS were not perhaps excessively high. Then I said that there might be three other reasons as well. The first was that there was no mobility to the private sector because the salaries were too high. Or it might be that because there was still work reservation in the SATS, more people of colour did not work for the SATS. Thirdly, I said, the SATS perhaps set too high a standard of qualifications, as a result of which it could only draw its employees from the White section of the population. The Minister did not reply to that very well. Together with the question of the salary structures there are a few other interesting facts which one comes across in the annual report, for example.

† I refer to home loans. In 1982 there were 3 380 loans granted from capital funds of the SATS. A total of R156 million of capital was employed to grant loans averaging R46 400 per loan. Further, there were 4 200 loans granted from the Pension Fund averaging R44 000 per loan. Now, to repay a loan of R45 000, at a market-related interest rate, one would have to earn R30 500 in the private sector.

How much?

One would have to earn R30 500 in the private sector to be able to afford to pay back a loan of R45 000. Yet there are only 633 workers in the whole SATS organization who earn more than R28 000. According to the rules of the scheme, if one earns a salary of R15 000, one can get a loan of R68 500. If one earned R15 000 in the private sector and one could afford to pay back a quarter of one’s salary on housing, one could only repay a loan of R24 000. To put it differently, to repay a loan of R68 500, one has to earn R46 000 per annum.

Over what period?

Over 25 to 30 years.

There are certain conclusions one can draw from that and some questions one must ask. Are the rules of the home-ownership scheme not perhaps too lenient? It could be dangerous: The SATS, instead of helping the employees, could be getting them into a great deal of trouble. The SATS personnel can acquire loans above their means. I think this is a dangerous practice, especially if fringe benefits tax were to be introduced. Two things will then happen: Either the SATS will not be able to afford the tremendous increases necessary to bring the salaries in line with the debts which people have made in terms of home loans, or, secondly, SATS employees will be placed in the unfortunate position that they can no longer afford their own homes which they live in.

It is furthermore expected of everyone else to tighten their belts, to live within their means and to combat inflation. People in the private sector find it very difficult to get bonds at this stage. Yet, SATS employees get bonds well above their means. It therefore places them in a better position to acquire housing in a so-called buyers’ market when everyone else is experiencing a shortage of bonds. I think the hon. the Minister should really look at this package because he could perhaps land himself in great difficulty. It is also very interesting to note that in this year’s budget only R84 million could be found for new capital works, whereas last year R162 million was employed in home loans for SATS employees. I think the hon. the Minister is in the first instance responsible for transport and not for housing.

*I now come to another aspect which we touched on at the Second Reading, viz. cost savings. In the capital budget of the SATS there is another matter which I should like to raise—it has been referred to, but not in great detail—and that is the question of steam. In respect of numbers as well as tractive power, steam locomotives represent 30% of the total capacity of the Railways. Only 3,9% of the profitable freight is pulled by steam. I know that steam entails practical problems. On page 6 of the estimates of working expenditure the motive power operating expenses of steam traction and diesel traction is set out. If one were to switch steam traction and diesel traction, so that 26% of the traction is done by steam and 3,9% by diesel, one has this strange phenomenon that in fuel alone R220 million could have been saved in foreign exchange.

Do you want to go back to steam? Are you a CP who wants to move backwards?

I know very well the hon. the Minister will say that steam involves many practical problems. However, since we are in the position that we have enormous problems with foreign exchange, we should revert to steam for a larger proportion of our traction. We could do so on lines such as the one at Greytown, where there are many short and steep stretches. I believe the hon. the Minister might do well to consider that.

Instead of bringing steam traction back, we prefer to electrify.

Yes, that is even better. However, electrical traction is already contributing more than its own proportion of the total traction.

Another point which I want to raise is the question of licences to operate certain flight routes. Recently flights between Durban and Pietermaritzburg were advertised. I was very pleased about this, of course, because it would mean that my wife would not have to come from Pietermaritzburg to fetch me in Durban at 11 o’clock at night anymore. I thought that I would simply be able to take the Magnum flight to Pietermaritzburg. However, when I wanted to book on this advertised flight, they said that they advertised these flights only in order to retain their licence. I should like to hear the hon. the Minister’s reaction to that because it does not seem right to me.

Another aspect I want to raise—I do so for the simple reason that someone requested us to do so—deals with train timetables. This person is very worried because the times which mainline trains depart from Cape Town, for example, do not correspond with the times as indicated on the train timetables. He says, for example, that the Trans-Karoo very often departs half an hour late. That is how it is advertised on the station, but not on the tables. He also claims that it takes the Trans-Karoo only 13 minutes to travel from Cape Town to Bellville, and it takes the Orange Express 10 minutes; in other words, 114 km per hour for the Orange Express. In any case, what it basically involves is that the timetables and the times which the trains actually run should please be brought closer together. There seems to be a consistent discrepancy. I do not know whether this is done to get people to the stations in time, because train and tide waits for no man, of course. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Greytown made a rather rambling and, may I say, grey and drab speech. He for instance criticized the housing scheme of the Transport Services. I do not think there is any Railwayman who will agree with him, because in actual fact they have greatly benefited from the enchancement in value of the properties that they purchased with the funds that were made available by this scheme. At the same time, it is a method which helps the SATS to keep highly-trained staff in its employ. I do not think that it is necessary to deal with the other matters the hon. member raised this afternoon.

*I have in the past made mention in this House of the major stabilizing role that the SATS plays in the economy of the Port Elizabeth-Uitenhage metropolis, a role which it performs together with the motor industry, which is by far the biggest industry in this region and which is characterized by tremendous market sensitivity, with all the ill-effects that entails. As a stable provider of employment the SATS perhaps plays a far more important and bigger role in the economy of our region than elsewhere in the country. To illustrate this I wish to refer hon. members to a brief report in Oosterlig of Friday, 25 February this year, entitled “Motorbedryf het baie afgedank”. The report reads as follows—

Contrast this with what the hon. the Minister said in his budget speech, viz. that the SATS availed itself of other methods to reduce the staff, but that no permanent staff on the establishment of the SATS had been discharged. I think that wages are one of the big items on the SATS expenditure list. If expenditure is to be curbed the Opposition must tell us whether they ask that we reduce the number of permanent staff. This position of stable provider of employment in the labour market entails certain advantages and disadvantages for the SATS. It calls for intensive and accordingly very expensive training and retraining of staff, so as to obtain the highest degree of efficiency and productivity. The whole working philosophy is to adapt this service to the high tempo of technological development and demands being set transport services. Accordingly the SATS has well-equipped training centres with all the facilities and the latest equipment with which to train staff intensively. Apart from classroom training, practical training in the work situation is also provided, and in the case of artisans and apprentices this is done in well-equipped schools or in the workshops.

I should like to deal with the training of apprentices as regards both the theoretical and practical sides. In my constituency almost 200 apprentices in their first year are being trained this year. There were 712 applicants for these positions. These apprentices have to attend group training courses of between 10 and 12 weeks every year, while their full salary, class and examination fees are paid by the SATS. Whereas ordinary employers are obliged to have employees trained to the level of NTC II (theoretical), the SATS gives those who possess the necessary educational qualifications, the opportunity to study to NTS VI in this way.

As far as the practical training of apprentices is concerned, things are very thoroughly planned and they undergo specialized training over a wide field in their specific fields. To ensure that the highest possible standard of technical skill is achieved by the time the training comes to an end, apprentices undergo training assisted by modern aids, equipment, projectors and so on. Nothing but the best—and carefully selected instructors are in charge of the practical training of apprentices. Apart from the traditional artisans, for whom there is just as great a demand as in the past, there is also a new group of technicians that are now in demand, a group competent to deal with the astonishing variety of automatic and electronic equipment. To ensure that artisans are fully trained and that they keep abreast of new technoligical developments, there are various courses and other aids to enable them to learn these skills and to improve and develop them.

The fact that artisans and technicians of the SATS are so sought after in the private sector is evidence of the high standard of training they undergo.

This brings me to another very troublesome matter in my own constituency, viz. the present condition of the workshops, and the situation of those workshops. I myself have visited the buildings on various occasions and have examined them carefully. I brought this matter to the attention of the hon. the Minister last year, too. At the moment our staff have to do their work there in extremely difficult, sometimes even unpleasant, conditions. The facilities are quite inadequate, and inappropriate to modern production methods. Despite having well-motivated, thoroughly trained artisans in our service, they simply cannot be used to maximum effect, due to the quality of the workshops. Even the situation of the workshops is such as to seriously hamper the expansion and planning of Uitenhage. Those workshops comprise an area of almost 9 ha, virtually within the central business area, and of necessity this gives rise to certain major problems in respect of planning. Some major developments have already been seriously hamstrung as a result of this.

Since 1947 the SATS has occupied the city council’s land in that area and in spite of several representations, little progress had been made up to last year. The good advice of Publilius Syrus was also heeded by us because we severely reprimanded our good friend the SATS in private, as the hon. the Minister probably knows full well. Accordingly I am very pleased to be able to say openly in the House of Assembly today that since last year’s discussions very good progress has been made in this regard. Accordingly I wish to thank and praise the hon. the Minister and the staff of the SATS.

Last year an announcement was made to the effect that an amount of R118 million was being budgeted for the transfer of the workshop from their present premises to Cuyler Manor, and I note in this year’s budget—the capital budget—that expenditure of R6,04 million has been budgeted for this purpose for the 1983-’84 financial year. This appears under vote 534, vote 535 and vote 536 and includes inter alia an amount of R1,02 million for the construction of a telecommunications building and R5,2 million for a new railway installation, for the workshops, roads and stormwater network, for the new premises and preparatory work for the power supply line.

It is a tremendous encouragement for us to know that notwithstanding the critical financial situation and a drastic pruning of capital works, the hon. the Minister has indeed made this money available for Uitenhage. However, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to confirm that sufficient amounts of money are to be made available regularly on an annual basis to enable this project to be disposed of with all speed. Not only from the point of view of the city council, which will now be able to start planning meaningfully if this were to happen, but also, and in particular, from the point of view of the SATS, it is essential to complete this project as soon as possible. Greater and more regular annual expenditure is therefore essential. This will also emphasize the Government’s earnest intention of promoting development and expansion in that region, which has already been labelled a top priority.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Uitenhage has touched on matters to which I do not intend to refer. I am sure the hon. the Minister will respond to him when he replies to the debate.

There are a few matters that I wish to bring to the attention of the hon. the Minister. The first of these is of some importance because I believe that in certain instances, at least, the S.A. Airways act in isolation from the other interests of this country. I do not believe that in all cases the self-interest of the Airways should be paramount, particularly when one bears the fact in mind that they are in a monopoly position in relation to many air services within this country.

I want to refer to the question of foreign tourists and foreign tours in particular. Satour spends time and millions of rand each year promoting South Africa as a tourist destination and, in fact, in bringing people out here to show them what we have. However, for about a year now, S.A. Airways have been adopting what I can only describe as obstructionist tactics. I believe that S.A. Airways is refusing to confirm domestic air bookings of foreign touring groups unless they fly SAA on the international sector. This has never been officially and publicly announced but I believe that this is what is happening in practice and I look forward to hearing from the hon. the Minister in this connection.

The theory is that the domestic arrangements for these tours will be confirmed six weeks before the tour is due to begin, although that seldom, if ever, happens in practice. The result is that group tours are cancelled and this is costing South Africa money as well as the goodwill that these visitors bring with them.

Foreign tour operators do not need South Africa to survive but South Africa does need them if our tourist industry is to prosper. We already have problems of long distances and high fares and now we also have what would appear to be a very high-handed attitude. As a result of this, S.A. Airways is costing South Africa millions of rands in foreign currency by adopting this policy which I believe is a very shortsighted one indeed.

I know that there are some other countries and some other airlines that do adopt similar policies, but I believe it is extremely unwise for S.A. Airways to do the same. I should like to appeal to the hon. the Minister today, both to explain this policy specifically, and in fact to review and abandon it. It has never been something that has been publicly announced and published but there is widespread belief in the tourist industry that this is what is happening. I hope the hon. the Minister can put this matter right during the course of this debate.

The second point I wish to raise relates to the question of food on S.A. Airways. We have heard various aspects of this matter discussed during this debate, but I should like to refer to one specific matter because I believe it is easily remedied. In the middle of February the hon. member for Albany and myself took the early morning flight to Port Elizabeth. At a certain stage during that flight—and I can assure the hon. the Minister that we wanted to fly and not “vreet”— we were advised that we were going to be served with something called “breakfast.” A substantial portion of that breakfast was made up of one croissant and one bread roll, both of which looked extremely unappetizing. Nevertheless, as we had been up since 05h30 that morning to be able to catch the ’plane, and as I have good medical services at my disposal and belong to a medical aid association, I ventured to begin eating my croissant. I am certainly no cook but I am sure that croissant was many days old. It was most unappetizing and it was only by putting large lumps of butter and blobs of jam on it that I was able to eat it at all.

My hon. colleague, although bigger and stronger than I, gave up after that. I, however, was still hungry and so I proceeded to try my roll. That was even worse. The inside of that roll was actually rock hard; one could not break it with one’s hands, let alone eat it. I spoke to one of the flight attendants who was extremely helpful, but obviously they were not personally to blame and they could do nothing about it.

I made some inquiries with other people and it is clear that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction about this. On one flight that I know of, there were rolls—a couple of dozen of which had to be recollected because they were so stale that they actually had green mould on them.

Eat him, Ken, eat him!

I believe that there is no good reason for this. Bakeries can provide 100% fresh hot rolls at very short notice. Comer cafes all over our cities do it. One can go in there and they have a steady stream of fresh rolls becoming available. Here I am especially talking about the first flight of the day. SAA knows exactly at what time that flight is due to depart and SAA also has a very good idea of how many people will be going on it. I really think that if that is what is going to be provided as breakfast, those rolls and croissants could be very fresh indeed.

In slightly more general terms, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether they do not receive a number of complaints? These are not gourmet complaints; I am not talking about nuances and other aspects of cooking, but just basic edible food. I should also like to ask the hon. the Minister what sort of quality control there is on the food. I am not talking now particularly about health matters which have been discussed earlier, but I should merely like to know what sort of quality control there is and how frequently that is carried out. Are samples from each batch inspected to see whether they meet reasonable standards?

They get a discount for using three-day-old rolls. [Interjections.]

I think that is a bit of a negative answer.

I believe that SAA has a new catering contract which could go on for very many years, but I hope there are provisions in that contract for keeping quality at reasonable levels. I hope the hon. the Minister will reply to these points at a later stage.

Mr. Chairman, I regret that I cannot comment on the problems which the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens experiences on that specific flight. The fact is that I have never been on that flight.

A great deal has been said in this House during the last few days about the losses suffered by the passenger services of the SATS. I have taken the trouble of going into the losses suffered in recent years. During the last few days, too, frequent congratulatory remarks have been addressed to the new General Manager, but looking at these figures I wondered whether it would not have been more appropriate to commiserate with him.

In the 1979-’80 financial year, the loss on our passenger services was R401 million; in 1980-’81 it was R490 million; in 1981-’82 it was R598 million; and in 1982-’83 it was R690 million. It is estimated that at this rate the loss by the end of the century will amount to R2 000 million. A previous speaker said that the losses of the SATS should be debited to the Exchequer; they should be subsidized from the Treasury. The question is, though, whether the Treasury can afford to contribute R2 000 million to offset the losses on passenger services.

I also examined the contributions made by the passengers to the cost of the service which they receive. Over the past three financial years, the contribution made by passengers in the form of first class fares on main line trains—revenue accruing to the Railways, therefore—represented, on average, only 30,5% of the total cost, and in the case of second class services it represented only 30,1% of the total cost, while in the case of third class services—and this is an interesting figure—these contributions represented, on average, 67,2% of the total cost over the past three years.

On suburban trains, the first class passengers contributed, on average, 22,7% of the total cost over the past three years, while the third class passengers contributed 27,2% on average. From this we may infer that we shall never be able to break even on the basis of the current fares in our transport services. I could not obtain enough figures to be able to ascertain whether the revenue from fares covered variable costs, and then we are not even talking about fixed costs.

From the General Manager’s report for the 1981-’82 financial year it appears that passenger journeys increased by 3,8%. However, first class paasenger journeys decreased by 2,03 million, or 1,6%. Second class passenger journeys decreased by 0,89 million or 30,35%, while third class journeys increased by 30 489 000, i.e. 5,12%. From this it is apparent that the demand for third class transport is much greater than the demand for first and second class transport. What is more, the popularity of first and second class railway transport is declining. In the light of the 30% decline in the demand for second class transport we must ask ourselves whether second class transport really meets the requirements of the passenger with regard to such transport.

Possible solutions to the problem may be sought, but they can never cover the full scope of the problem. I am thinking, for example, of services which are totally uneconomical and could therefore be discontinued—as in fact they are—as well as the problem of discount tickets. In this connection, I wish to refer to the speeches made by the hon. member for Durban Point and the hon. member for Amanzimtoti, who spoke about discount tickets. The discount on official journeys by public servants is 45%. On official journeys by members of the Defence Force it is 50%. Railway concessions, which form part of the conditions of service of public servants, amount to a discount of 25%. Of course, these are quite apart from the benefits received by the elderly, by national servicemen, etc. In this connection I want to endorse the remarks made by the hon. member for Durban Point, because I think that the departments concerned should reimburse the SATS for this discount which is granted to their officials.

Then there may be many passengers who make use of the service free of charge, sometimes as a result of inadequate control. There is a seasonal demand for service in respect of which we could perhaps introduce differentiated tariffs. I think that passengers’ perception of journeys could be specifically examined. Are our trains not too slow? We could arrange for the train from Johannesburg to Durban to travel in the daytime and over a shorter period. We could increase the rate of occupancy of the train. Then we could come much closer to covering the cost involved.

However, I do not have sufficient knowledge, nor did I have enough time to make a proper study of this matter. Could I ask the hon. the Minister to consider whether it would not be appropriate to ask an expert market research agency to examine this problem objectively, especially the declining demand for passenger services in the first and second classes? What are the needs of the travelling public? Why are they not making greater use of our passenger services? If they do have problems which can be solved, let us try to do so and let us try to bring back those people who made use of the services in the past and whom we have lost. Let us also try to gain new support for our passenger services by means of proper advertising.

Mr. Chairman, it has been ruled out of order in this debate to call someone a goose. It has also been ruled out of order to call someone a chicken in this House. Calling someone a rooster has also been ruled out of order. We respect those rulings, although some of us may not feel so enthusiastic about them. However, I believe it to be quite permissible to tell someone that he is a greenhorn. Therefore I want to suggest to the hon. the Minister that he have a good serving of hay ready for the hon. member for Cape Town Gardens the next time he knows that hon. member is going to be on an SAA flight.

I want to refer briefly to the hon. member for Koedoespoort, who touched on a matter which has been discussed in this House on a number of occasions, namely the free drinks during flights. I know that some of my hon. colleagues have also adopted a certain standpoint regarding this matter. However, I am not ashamed to admit tonight that I was one of those who made representations to the hon. the Minister to arrange for us to be served free drinks during flights. I want to say that we can only have one ground for objecting to free drinks during flights. If we do not object when a passenger pays or when the price of the drink has been added to the ticket, we can only object in principle to free drinks during flights or to drinks being served during flights at all. When we talk about this matter and when we want to debate it, therefore, I think we must accept that our objections can only be based on principle and on no other grounds whatsoever.

I referred to the safety record of the SATS during the Second Reading debate. Tonight I want to concentrate on the safety record of our light aircraft. I want to begin by making three statements. The first one is that light aircraft are safer than passenger cars.

Are you talking to the hon. member for Gordonia now?

No. Of course, there are some exceptions. Secondly, more than 80% of all air crashes are caused by the human factor. In the third place, I want to state that there is a definite correlation today between the safety of private pilots and the cost of flying to private pilots. Obtaining a private pilot’s licence costs around R2 000 today. A substantial subsidy, which I believe to be round about R1 600, is paid by the department. To qualify as a commercial pilot with instrument grading, one needs at least 250 hours’ training. This will cost anything between R12 000 and R15 000. In this case, too, the department pays a substantial subsidy.

The S.A. Airways is only interested in accepting a pilot for further training if he has been a senior commercial pilot with at least 1 500 hours’ experience. Therefore flying is extremely expensive for the private pilot today. The insurance premium of a training aircraft amounts to 11% of the insured value of such an aircraft today. A few months ago it was only 8%. In addition, there is a first payment of R750 in case of an accident. When one compares the amounts paid out in claims with the total amount collected in the form of premiums, it is clear that this is a gold-mine for the insurance industry.

It is not only in respect of insurance companies or the suppliers of spare parts that I have a problem when it comes to the price of flying. I have a problem with the department as well. The landing fee for a four-seater Cessna 172 was less than R2 per landing in 1975, while it is about R7 per landing today. In 1975, one was able to rent the same aircraft at R18 an hour, while it costs around R55 an hour today. What is the effect of all these cost increases on the safety of our private pilots? As a result of these enormous cost escalations, private pilots comply only with the absolute minimum requirements, i.e. the approximately 3 hours a year which are necessary to retain a licence. I want to make the statement that no pilot who does not perform at least six landings per month is a safe pilot.

Now I want to refer to the D.F. Malan Airport and the landing fees there. We as private pilots understand that the reason why the landing fees are rising so sharply is that the people do not want us there. The S.A. Air Force practises instrument approaches there. The airport handles flights by the SAA and by overseas airlines. Therefore the traffic is fairly heavy. The parking facilities of the flying clubs are at quite a distance from the runway, and it sometimes costs one between R10 and R14 and, in extreme cases when one has to wait a long time, up to R20 from the time one has landed until one has returned to the flying club. I now want to request the hon. the Minister to come to our assistance in False Bay. The D.F. Malan Airport also falls in my constituency. I know that plans have already been drawn up for an alternative civil aerodrome.

I know that strictly speaking this is not the responsibility of the hon. the Minister and his department, but I nevertheless want to ask him to help us and to take the initiative, together with his department and the Cape Town municipality, so that we may get that alternative civil aerodrome for which the plans have already been drawn up.

Order! I have allowed the hon. member to address the hon. the Minister on this matter, but the matter falls under Civil Aviation, which actually falls under the Department of Transport. Therefore the hon. member may raise the matter again at a later stage.

Mr. Chairman, on 16 February I asked the hon. the Minister what I thought was a simple question, viz.—

The hon. the Minister replied—

I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether he is proud or ashamed of that answer. Here is a gentleman who says that he does not think that the Immorality Act or the Mixed Marriages Act are necessary, but when it comes to signs on the coaches of the Cape Peninsula trains he says that the apartheid policy is going to be maintained. I want to tell that hon. Minister that he sounds more like Jaap Marais and more like the former hon. member for Waterberg than he does like a Minister of a Government that says that they want to eliminate discrimination. He knows that it has nothing to do with eliminating friction. He knows that it is ridiculous. He knows that it is archaic. He knows that it is a hang-up from the Verwoerdian days. Everybody else has desegregated. As the hon. member for Johannesburg North said, the shops, the offices, the buses, the sports fields, the clubs, the theatres, the libraries and even the stations in the Cape Peninsula have been desegregated. So there we are. We are all going down to the station together, but as soon as we get in the train— in order to eliminate friction the Minister says—there has to be these apartheid signs. It has nothing to do with eliminating friction. It has to do with the fact that the hon. the Minister has not got the guts, he just does not have the courage to do what he knows is correct, and that is to get rid of apartheid, discrimination and segregation on the trains in the Cape Peninsula. I expect more from him and we expect something from him on Monday which will indicate that he is prepared to review this policy.

The next issue I want to raise is something that affects the Cape Peninsula very vitally. It has been a subject of much discussion and it is something that the city council of Cape Town is investigating right at the moment. I refer to the question of the possible development of Granger Bay and areas in that vicinity. I raise this because I believe the hon. the Minister of Transport Affairs, the SATS, occupies an absolutely pivotal central position in any redevelopment that is going to take place between the Cape Town central business district and the Granger Bay area. The hon. the Minister will know what I am talking about because he goes home to my constituency of Sea Point quite frequently. What we need is not a particular scheme— and I am not knocking the Granger Bay scheme per se because I think there is considerable merit in it—but I want to urge the hon. the Minister to become party to and the initiator of a much wider comprehensive study of that whole sector of Cape Town which is largely occupied by the SATS. I start from Granger Bay, then I look at Victoria Basin, I look at the fishing harbour, I look at the tank farm and I look at the part of Cape Town between the tank farm, where the hon. the Minister has quite a few stores and other offices, and the central business district. The SATS occupy an absolutely pivotal part in that area. This is a matter which I discussed informally with the hon. the Prime Minister; I have discussed it with the Administrator as he must be party to any comprehensive investigation to see how the whole of that area can be redeveloped in the interests of the Cape Peninsula. We talk about tourism; we talk about the problems of decentralization; we talk about the problems of the economic vitality of this region. I believe that in the area that I have described to the hon. the Minister we have one of the most valuable potential pieces of land that is left in the Peninsula. I believe it occupies a prime position. Here from the north of the city right through to Granger Bay. None of these areas is really being effectively utilized. The Granger Bay area is north-facing with its back to the south-easter and is not effectively utilized.

With the trend towards containerization the hon. the Minister knows that with the decline of Table Bay as a multi-purpose goods port the picturesque Victoria Basin is grossly under-utilized. While the fishing-boat section of the harbour is still being used, it is open to question whether it is suitably located. Furthermore the fuel tank farm which is adjacent to the old harbour and right opposite the residential area of Green Point cannot from a functional and hazard point of view continue there indefinitely. And then of course next to that, with the removal of the Coloured people from the Port Road area there is an important piece of land east of Somerset Road, land of a nondescript character and under-utilized. If we look at this sketch in its entirety we see that every element of that sketch is either wrongly utilized or is under-utilized, and that the SATS occupy most of this area.

Sir, I think it is tremendously important, whether we have a Granger Bay scheme, and old harbour scheme or a Somerset Road scheme, that nothing should be done on an unco-ordinated or piecemeal basis. One must have development planning right from Granger Bay to the centre of the city through the Railway property, and one must see to it that that planning is integrated with the existing structure and the planning for the future development of the area. I can envisage a new line of development from the central business district of Cape Town through the old harbour area to Granger Bay, I believe there is a case for revitalizing one of the most important pieces of real estate still available to Cape Town. Once again we would be linking the city with the sea, which has been removed from the city both by the Duncan Dock and by the freeways. Once again we will be able to link the city with the sea. We would be able to upgrade a piece of real estate largely used by the SATS, a piece of land which is potentially tremendously valuable. By remodelling and regenerating the old harbour area we will be creating something which is useful and something which could become a major tourist and commercial attraction with a very strong nautical character. We could go further and develop Granger Bay as a major small boat and yachting harbour with all the necessary facilities.

What worries me is that if one looks at any of these projects in isolation, if one deals only with one project in isolation, we won’t see the development as a whole. I appeal to the hon. the Minister, in co-operation with the city council of Cape Town and the Administrator, to see the developnent of this area as a whole. There have been various schemes. For instance, there is the Louis Karol scheme for the development of Granger Bay and the Gawie Fagan scheme for the redevelopment of Victoria Basin, and a scheme by students of UCT under Mr. Hugh Floyd to redevelop the old harbour and tank farm area. Each one of these schemes makes one to realize what a tremendous potential exists for rejuvenation, for redevelopment and for recycling of old buildings in these areas.

I want to make an appeal to the hon. the Minister. I know every department is jealous of what it has got and wants to hang on to it for as long as possible. But I would like this hon. the Minister to make a sacrifice. I want him to sit down with all the other authorities to see whether that valuable piece of land, from Granger Bay right through to the centre of the city, cannot be developed into a prestige residential, commercial and tourist area. That would be a major contribution from the part of the hon. the Minister even if he does not want to take the apartheid signs off the trains in the Peninsula.

Mr Chairman, during the Second Reading debate I chose accommodation for officials as the theme for my speech, and referred to what the SATS was doing to provide its officials with accommodation. I chose that theme because I think accommodation ought to be accorded a very high priority. After all, when people are provided with proper accommodation, one does have happy workers as well as a stable community. Moreover, productivity among workers is also cultivated in this way. There are hon. members in this House, however, among them the hon. member for Greytown, who referred to the numerical ratio between Black and White workers in the employ of the SATS. I have already pointed out that the SATS draws no distinction when it comes to accommodation—no distinction whatsoever.

There are three housing schemes and all three are available to all race groups in the employ of the SATS.

For how long has that been the case?

Mr. Chairman, I can give the hon. member the dates. However, I do not want to devote my time to him now.

What did strike me, however, was that the hon. member for Langlaagte made certain extraordinary statements here in this House. I find it a great pity that the hon. member for Langlaagte is not present here in the House this afternoon.

He has run away.

I really find it a pity. The hon. member for Langlaagte has the habit of storming into a debate, dealing out blows, as he did once again in this debate to the hon. the Minister of Transport Services, and then simply running away. [Interjections.] I read the hon. member for Langlaagte’s speech, and I could not help saying to myself that what the hon. member had said here in this House simply could not be the truth. I should like to quote a single sentence from the speech of the hon. member for Langlaagte, a single sentence in which three untruths occur. These are untruths which are simply being noised abroad.

While he is saying these things, the hon. member stands in that aisle between the two rows of benches, and one even gets the impression that there are tears in his eyes while he is pleading for his people. At the same time, however, he is spreading untruths abroad. [Interjections.]

After all, he has a licence to lie! [Interjections.]

I am going to quote to this House what the hon. member for Langlaagte said. In the first place the hon. member for Langlaagte said: “These people” … these are the people of May-fair… live in a housing scheme …".

Surely the hon. member knows that that is not the case. After all, it is in his constituency. Surely he knows that it is an untruth which he is proclaiming here. Further along in the same sentence the hon. member says: “… and when the area was proclaimed for Indians …”.

Mr. Chairman, the area was never proclaimed for Indians. Here we therefore have a second untruth in the same sentence. However, the hon. member went on to say: “… they were evicted.” [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, I challenge the hon. member for Langlaagte to submit to this House the name of a single person who was evicted from his house in Mayfair—this is in the hon. member’s own constituency. [Interjections.] Here we have three untruths in a single sentence from the speech made by the hon. member for Langlaagte. [Interjections.]

I think it is necessary for us to make the truth known here today. Let us make the truth known. [Interjections.] Mr. Chairman, I am going to make the truth known this afternoon. The hon. the Minister of Community Development made a Press statement in which … [Interjections.]

Order!

I really do believe, Mr. Chairman, there is special responsibility resting on the shoulders of every hon. member of this House. Here in this House every hon. member swears loyalty under oath to the Republic of South Africa. Here every member gives the undertaking that he will act in the best interests of his voters. This afternoon I want to test hon. members of the CP in order to establish whether they have complied with this solemn promise. I would like us to establish whether they are acting in the interests of their voters. [Interjections.]

Let me now tell hon. members what the truth is. It is as follows. An area was in fact proclaimed for Indians, at Fordsburg and Burgersdorp. The proclamation of such an area took place and the statutory notice appeared on Friday, 18 February this year in the Gazette. What was stated in that notice? Let us see. I am quoting from the Press statement made by the hon. Minister of Community Development—

There is a map attached. It makes sense to me, and I do not know the area. The statement continues—

Surely I, as a member for the House of Assembly, can help my voters. I will help them to make representations. During the consolidation of land for kwaNdebele I helped the people of Bronkhorstspruit. I appeared on behalf of my people. This is expected of me. I shall quote further from the statement—

Here I have now read out the truth to hon. members and I now wish to ask the hon. member for Langlaagte this question. How does the hon. member for Langlaagte reconcile what he said with his conscience? [Interjections.] In this House there are people who are prepared to violate their conscience and to have lies bruited abroad in Hansard. They are prepared to violate their conscience for the sake of a few votes in the coming by-elections. I honestly think that the voters of Langlaagte—I do not know them—are entitled to a proper representative in this House. With his conduct in this House the hon. member for Langlaagte can never satisfy his voters in that constituency. They are entitled to better representation than the representation they have in this House at present.

Mr. Chairman, I am very pleased that the hon. member for Witbank—as we all know him—is a fervent champion of the Railwayman and also of everything he stands for. Today he dealt very thoroughly with our opponents and furnished us with certain facts.

I should like to sail into calmer waters today. I should like to discuss the work done to minister to the spiritual welfare of the employees of the S.A. Transport Services, because this is a matter very little is said about in debates in this House.

For more than 80 years a special field has been covered here, where 250 000 people are ministered to and reached in one way or another. This spirutual ministration has a long history. The N.G. Kerk and the S.A. Church Railway Mission of the Anglican Church began work in this specific connection long before Union. This was when there were not many churches and when visits were paid to lonely stations. That was when clergymen like the Rev. Hennie Pienaar of the Noupoort NG Kerk baptized children, arranged Sunday school classes and assisted parents with advice. Communion was served, the sacraments were served and in this way the spiritual needs of the Railway people were ministered to. It is circumstances like these which we are very proud of.

I wish to refer here in particular to the wonderful work which is being done in co-operation with the Administration of the SA Transport Services. It is a very great privilege for me to be able to refer to the fact that the Breë Komissie vir Nywerheidsbe-diening which is directed at the Railways is of course the umbrella organization that does this work. We are very proud of the fact that the chairman of the commission is Mr. Benade. He is the Assistant General Manager, Manpower. I am also very pleased that on this occasion Dr. Moolman is sitting in the official’s benches. He is the vice-chairman of the commission. Mr. Braam le Roux, Divisional Manager, Western Transvaal, is the third member of the commission. I have also been involved in this work since 1957 and that is why I have understanding and appreciation for the fact that these three gentlemen devoted a full day to the Church.

I have with me here the agenda for the meeting which was held on 28 October 1982 in Johannesburg. That was the latest meeting. I am glad to see that they really devoted a full day of their precious time to deliberate on the matter of spiritual ministration. For us it is a very great privilege that they help us in this respect with our work.

We thank the SA Transport Services very sincerely for their co-operation in this connection. If one includes the coaches allocated to the Christian Union in the number, there are at present 16 private coaches which the SA Transport Services make available for the purpose of carrying out spiritual work. Perhaps I should furnish a few other figures. A total of 15 907 visits to SA Transport Services premises were carried out by the N.G. Kerk alone, which has six ministers and 13 other employees. A total of 5 423 meetings were held. As far as the Christian Union is concerned, 5 662 services were held and 3 351 visits were made. What is important, is that by means of the stop-order facilities which the SA Transport Services make available for this work, an amount of R809 824 was raised in one year for spiritual work in the SA Transport Services. This is truly an achievement of which we are very proud.

Today the work has expanded to such an extent that missionary work is being done among the non-Whites. There is also evangelical work among the Whites. Missionary work is also being done among seamen. The scope of the work has expanded to such an extent that by now spiritual ministration is being carried out at more than 300 private business enterprises in the Western Cape in particular.

If one talks to these people, one learns that where this work is being done, the agitators disappear and no more strikes take place. This happens when the Christian message is brought home. It is this work which at present is extremely important to us, and therefore we are delighted that the senior officials are appreciative of people’s needs. Mr. Danie du Plessis, a former General Manager, once said that after a service had been held in a goods shed, no further demands had been made of the Administration. After the Christian message has been proclaimed there, one finds that the worker in the goods shed adopts a new approach to the work which has to be done there. In Salt River there are old passenger coaches that were written off, but which are now being used as churches.

Something I want to make special mention of is the work among seamen. I should like to quote a passage from the publication Spore which I publish for this spiritual work. This was written in March/April 1982—

In this way I can say a great deal about what these people are doing for us under very difficult circumstances.

Since I am now paying tribute to the SA Transport Services, the top management and the other officials, I want to thank the hon. the Minister very much for what he means to us. Frequently he gives one the impression that he is full of humour, full of jokes. However, that is only one character trait of the hon. the Minister. In reality he is a deeply religious man. When he took over as Minister of Transport Affairs, his message to us was—

Then he uttered these wonderful words—

This was followed by this wonderful concluding paragraph, which I hope we will take to heart—

The caption to the article read: “Hierdie artikel dra ons op aan die genadetroon van God: Boodskap van sy Edele Hendrik Schoeman, L.V., Minister van Vervoerwese, aan die lesers van Spore.”

It is that attitude which leads to our ultimately being able to achieve something quite wonderful in this large organization. We can achieve something great because we have a spiritual background. We have something more than other people have. We can ultimately convey the message of peace to the best of our conviction.

I honestly wish to say that this is blessed work which we are doing. I had the personal privilege to travel in one of these coaches and to show films. We showed a film called “Spore van Nasaret”. Frequently one was shunted around all night in one’s coach, and one was alone in that coach. However it was a pleasure to bring the message and to show films. I can also say that the people turned up in droves and queued up to see the 16 mm films. For me it was always a great privilege to work in closer contact with people in that way. I still remember that when we were standing in the Waterval-Bo station, there was a locomotive which had overturned. We took photographs and ultimately made it applicable to people: A broken life, a broken body. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, in the minute or two remaining to me, I want to put to the hon. the Minister a couple of suggestions regarding the economical use of the land occupied by the SATS. I say this because the SATS occupies the most valuable real estate in many of our cities and suburbs, real estate which is on the arterial routes in and out of our cities. The stations, because of the areas they serve, are generally points of congregation where people either arrive by bus, by car or on foot. They are areas of high population density. They are areas which, besides their use for transport services, also lend themselves for commercial activities. Shopping, eating and parking all relate very much to the areas occupied by stations in our towns and cities.

One of the snags is that in the main Railway activity is a single-level activity, activity at ground level. I want to suggest that to help the Railways and to make use of valuable land, greater attention should be given to the use of the air space or unused upper levels which are often not even built. I do not think we can afford any longer to have new stations being built in our suburbs, towns and cities consisting of only one storey. They should be buildings for transport services, yes, but they should also be used for commercial and other purposes. I am not suggesting that the SATS should build huge palaces of their own. Perhaps the building work should be contracted out. The station part would be for the Railways while the rest of the space could be sold or leased to the private sector for development for its own purposes.

Secondly, I believe that many existing buildings could even at this stage be converted into multi-storey buildings. Just as was done with the Pan Am building over Grand Central station, so I believe there must be many sites in South Africa where with a bit of ingenuity and engineering skill single-storey buildings could be converted into multi-storey buildings which could then be sold off to the private sector to the economic advantage of the SATS.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 22.