May I ask the Prime Minister whether the report of the Imperial Conference is now printed?

Yes, it is printed in both languages and copies are available for hon. members.

I move—

I am afraid when hon. members saw this notice on the paper regarding a coal survey, they thought they were in for a dull afternoon. It may be that I shall not make the question very interesting, but to me it has proved not only interesting, but very important indeed, and I hope to convince the House that the time has arrived for something to be done in this matter. In asking the House to express its opinion that the time has arrived for a survey to be made of the physical and chemical properties of our coal, it is not necessary for me to say much about the importance of coal. Coal is sometimes said to be “king” and when we consider all our industries are founded on coal you can appreciate that saying. Gold and diamonds certainly employ more men and more capital is employed in their extraction than in the case of coal and, although that is the case, and although revenue derived from these precious metals and minerals is greater than from coal, nevertheless, as a national asset, coal is of more permanent importance to this country than gold or diamonds. If we look round we are bound to admit there are many countries in the world at present which are great and powerful where neither gold nor diamonds are found, but there are no powerful countries in modern days where coal is not abundant or easily available. Our coal resources in South Africa are very great, and they are practically untouched and are being wastefully used. We have hundreds of square miles of coal in the Transvaal, Natal and the Free State. Most of our coal mined is burnt in our grates and furnaces, and thirty or forty per cent. of the value of the coal goes up the chimney. Attempts have been made at various times to utilize coal in a more economical manner, and ten years ago in England the question became so pressing and was regarded as so important that a fuel research board was set up to examine the whole question of the proper utilization of the British coal seams. In connection with their work was set up a survey such as I am referring to to-day; a survey of the chemical and physical properties of coal, and that work is going on now by Government officials who co-relate their work with colliery managers and other persons in a position to help them in regard to coal. The same sort of work is going on in America at the present day, but the greatest advance in connection with the matter has been made in Germany, where Dr. Bergius has been experimenting with coal for many years. His methods are unlike the methods adopted in England. In England coal was carbonized at different high temperatures and various kinds of products were produced. Dr. Bergius went into the hydrogenation of coal. He reduced powdered coal to a liquid by the introduction of hydrogen, and extracted by-products. The results were amazing. On a laboratory scale he showed good results, but technical men were inclined to doubt whether the process would be a commercial success. Recently Dr. Bergius has proved that his method is a commercial success. He has been able to produce from 1,000 tons of coal 250 tons of petrol, 250 tons of power gas and 100 tons of unrefined oil. In Germany and other parts of Europe they have for a long time been turning out from coal paraffin wax, methol alcohol, acetlyene, benzine and other acids, and even scent has been produced from coal. It is not generally known in South Africa that, in addition to coke, used for smelting minerals, and gas for domestic purposes and heating, in Natal and the Transvaal they are also producing from coal pitch for road-making, disinfectants and benzol. It is interesting to know that 500 gallons of benzol are turned out every month and are sold to the Defence Department, and when mixed with petrol in proportion of 30 per cent. benzol and 70 per cent. petrol, is used by the defence force in flying. If the company could turn out 2,000 gallons a month the Defence Department would be glad to make use of it. Dr. Bergius has been able to achieve this amazing result from the hydrogenation of coal. Speaking of petrol for a moment, Dr. Bergius has proved that he can produce a ton of petrol for £4 12s. That is equal to about 4d. per gallon. It is thought that if this industry is taken up and pushed it will revolutionize the whole position in regard to our coal and petrol supplies. It is really an outstanding advance which has been made by this scientist, and it is likely to have the most far-reaching results. It is likely that the oil and petrol produced from coal will replace the oil and petrol which is got from the natural wells in various parts of the world. There is no reason at all, it seems to me, why we, with our very extensive, our enormous, coal deposits in this country, should not take advantage of this discovery. I understand that a company has been formed in England to work Dr. Bergius’ process, and it is being very vigorously pushed in Germany to-day. If it is possible for petrol to be produced in Germany for 4d. per gallon, we ought to be able to produce it at a very much lower cost, because our coal, I am told by colliery managers, can be mined and put in retorts for the purpose of producing oil, tar, petrol and other things, at a cost of 2s. 6d. per ton, whereas in Germany and other European countries and also America, it cannot be done for less than 6s. or 8s. a ton. If this is the case, there is no reason why, by utilizing coal in the way I have mentioned, we should not turn out petrol for 2d. per gallon. Some writers who have studied the subject even go so far as to say that if the business is properly managed petrol should be produced at 1d. per gallon in this country. In that connection I may say that it has been stated that only brown coal or inferior coal can be used for this purpose, but experiments which have taken place in England have proved that even better results can be obtained from British bituminous coal. That coal is similar to the coal we mine and burn every day, and if they can get better results from the British coal than from the inferior German coal, we also ought to get, at any rate, as good results. We use a large quantity of petrol, illuminating oil and lubricating oil and other products of coal; in fact, we spend between two and a half million and three million sterling in importing these commodities. Why should we not supply our own need, and if we can produce oil and petrol as cheaply as scientific men have said we can do, why should we not endeavour to supply the world? Why, instead of spending these large sums of money in importing the commodities I have mentioned from America, should we not compete with America in the markets, or, at any rate, some of the markets of the world? I think a clear case can be made out for the Government immediately taking a hand with a survey of our coal resources. It is necessary to submit the seams of coal to chemical tests in a laboratory and co-ordinate the geological information we have with the physical and chemical data. The by-product companies which are now working on this matter on a very small scale, a very small scale indeed, have certain information in their possession. They have been testing their coal in order to see how far it lends itself to the production of by-products, but their efforts have not been on a uniform basis. They have been limited to their own requirements and each colliery is going on on independent lines and knows nothing at all about what is being done in the way of examining coal in other collieries, and the information is not made public. It is necessary that the Government should take a hand in this matter. It is a work that no private individual can perform. It can only be performed by Government. We have a geological survey, which costs us a certain amount of money. We have a botanical survey, a fishery survey, and we ought to have a survey of our coal resources, of our valuable asset which we have been neglecting, and which, as far as the use goes at the present time, is being most uneconomically used. If we are to attract capital to this country it is necessary that capitalists should know something about the properties of our minerals. A coal survey will show the carbon contents of the coal, the volatile ingredients, the tar and various gases. I do not ask the Government to produce oil or petrol for public sale. I only want them to take the matter up in the same way as, but on a much smaller scale, than they do in regard to agricultural matters. They have an institution for research in connection with cattle diseases and agricultural matters generally. Nobody has any objection to that. Agriculture is our basic industry, but next to agriculture is certainly our mining industry, and we do very little to help it along. We do nothing at all, as far as I know, in regard to research. Many failures have taken place in this country and other countries owing to insufficient information about coal, and about oil shales. Either the coal is limited in quantity or the properties of coal are not sufficiently known before money has been embarked in a venture and money has been lost on a large scale in this country, and it is in order to help capitalists who are willing to venture their money and promote the development of our mining industries that I ask the Government to undertake this survey. I had a very pleasant interview with the Minister of Mines and Industries on this matter, and he told me that the Board of Trade had for some time been enquiring into questions regarding the economical use of coal, and they have prepared a report, but the report has not yet been published.

It is a memorandum, not a report.

Well, the same thing in the Greek, I expect. I shall be very pleased to see this memorandum when it is published and, perhaps, if the Minister sees fit to address the House on the subject, he will tell us what is in the memorandum. I was very glad to hear from the Minister that a subcommittee of the Grant Research Board had been set up in order to advise him in regard to the best way of getting to work in connection with a coal survey. The Minister is moving in the matter, although he is moving very slowly, I am bound to say, or, perhaps, I ought to say, the Grant Research Board is moving slowly—

So is the whole world, on this question.

Because the subcommittee was appointed in April last, and the Minister, according to what he told me, has not had a report or a memorandum from the board yet. I am just afraid that the reports or memoranda, when they are received, will be pigeon-holed in the same way as was a report that I shall refer to shortly, but I am glad to know that the matter is receiving the attention of the scientific men in the Minister’s department, and I hope the Minister himself will take such a keen interest in the matter that we shall really get a move on. I know, of course, he is a very busy man and very much harassed with the alluvial diggings and Iron and Steel Bill, and so on, but this is a matter to which he really will have to devote some attention, because it is very important, and if we do not move in the matter in South Africa other countries will step in; they will establish a trade; they will produce oil and petrol and other by-products of coal at a cheap rate; they will flood our market, and it will be a very difficult thing indeed for us to come along at a later date and, as it were, undercut them and put them out of the business. We must get in first, if possible, in order to take advantage of the undoubted valuable national asset which we have in our coal.

As a State enterprise?

I was a short time ago in Dundee, and I had a meeting with several colliery managers, and they urged me to bring the matter up because they were afraid, from what they had read in the scientific magazines and journals, that other countries were moving, and we should be last in the race. These men had been studying the matter, and are most keen that something should be done. They are doing all they can in their own line, but are not able to co-ordinate the information they have and are not able to make it public; they think the Government is the only body that can do so, and they are most anxious that no time should be lost. I have been told by some persons connected with the coal mines that they were sounded by a Government official as to whether the collieries would finance such a survey as I have mentioned. I hope the Government will not insist on that. I do not think the Minister has made up his mind, from what he told me, but there are several very cogent reasons why the coal mines should not be asked to finance this survey. In the first place, the coal belongs to the State; it is a national asset and ought to be used to the best advantage for the State at the expense of the State. Secondly, the Government gets a considerable revenue in the way of licences for the mining of coal and also in the share of profits from coal mines, and then our railways make a very handsome revenue indeed from the carriage of coal. If we look at the matter from that point of view we are bound to admit it is unfair to ask the collieries—many of whom are not even paying a dividend—to finance or partly finance such a survey. We have this big national asset practically untouched. We also have Crown land in the Karroo and the bushveld. It is just as unfair to ask the collieries to finance this survey as it would be to ask the farmers of the Union to finance experiments for trying to discover the best means of closer settlement on the bushveld, or the Karroo. Both classes of property are the nation’s property and the nation, as a whole, ought to see they are used to the best advantage and if experiments are necessary they must be made by the State. There is another reason why we ought to get to work in connection with this matter. Every day coal is going out of fashion on steamships, and oil-burning steamships are being built more and more every year. I found from figures which I came across, that last year, 1927, the tonnage of steamers built throughout the world was 1,375,000. Coal-burning steamships accounted for 905,000 tons and oil-burning steamers for 470,000 tons. Then in addition to oil-burning ships we have motor ships using the internal combustion engine, and last year very nearly 900 of these ships were launched. Are we going to sit still and allow other countries to supply the oil and petrol to be used by the ships that will come to this country and are coming now, or are we going to be up and doing, and produce them ourselves? We can do it and undoubtedly it is our duty to do it as soon as we can. The large portion of the coal which has been discovered is inferior coal. As far as Natal is concerned, it is reckoned that only 30 per cent. of the coal discovered can be worked under present conditions. The remaining 70 per cent. is lying idle and untouched, but experiments which have been taking place in Germany, England and America show that inferior coal can be used for the production of by-products, and so can the refuse from good coal which is thrown on the dump at the pit head. It has been said we ought to await the results of experiments in other countries, and it is asked why should we bother to carry on experiments here when, perhaps, far better equipped scientific men in other parts of the world are experimenting? No experiments in Germany or England will give us any information about our own coal resources. We have to examine and test these seams of coal ourselves. It has been found, in the Witbank district, for instance, that one seam of coal in one portion is good for coking purposes, but in another portion of the same seam it is totally useless for that purpose. In the Dundee district there is one seam of coal which has no fewer than seven different properties, and it is only by testing individual seams throughout the country that the information which is absolutely necessary if this industry is to be established and go ahead can be established. I think myself, from what the Minister told me, that he is very sympathetic, and I trust he will be able very soon to announce that he has taken in hand the coal survey. Hon. members will notice that in the second part of my motion I ask the House to express the opinion that the time has arrived when the Government ought to encourage the production of oil and petrol from coal or oil shale. I mention oil shale specially. It is necessary to give some encouragement to a new industry. Whether it should be done by way of a bonus or not I do not wish to dogmatize. I think a bonus is the better plan, but I do not ask members to vote for a bonus. I only ask them to say it is advisable that the Government should encourage the production of oil and petrol from coal or oil shale. About five years ago the preceding Government appointed a committee to enquire into the question of oil fuel, and about three years ago they presented a very valuable report to the present Government. I am sorry that that report has been pigeon-holed, because I understand that nothing has been done. The committee consisted of Dr. H. J. van der Byl (chairman), Professor O. Hehner, Mr. H. J. Ibbotson, Sir Robert N. Kotzé. Mr. K. B. Quinan and Col. J. G, Rose. I suppose these are six of our most highly skilled technical men we have in South Africa, and they reported amongst other things—

They go into the expense of producing oil, and they report—

The second part of the report was published a few months afterwards, and in it they recommend that a bonus should be paid on the sale of oil and petrol, beginning at 5s. in the £, and dropping to 1s. in the £ according as the sales increase. They say that these bounties will amount to £250,000 over a number of years, and that amount may be considered moderate in comparison to the value and importance of the industry. This amount spread over a number of years is less than one-tenth the money we spend yearly in importing these oils and petrol. This report, as I say, was presented about three years ago, and no action, as far as I am aware, was taken in consequence. I think the time has arrived for the Government to be up and doing, and they ought to ask the House to vote a sum of money, not only to have a physical and chemical survey of our coal resources, but also a sum of money to be offered as a bonus to any companies that are prepared to produce oil and petrol from oil shales or coal. In connection with oil shales there is no necessity to wait for a coal survey. All the information is available, and the position is ripe for action being taken. We have the advice of these scientific men who have gone into the matter. They reported that there is a strong possibility of a paying industry being established. That was three years ago, but great scientific advances have been made since then; in fact, during the last few months enormous advances have been made in producing oil and petrol from coal. It has been truly said that the greatest influence at work in connection with the material progress of the world is applied science, and there is no doubt that the lot of man has been ameliorated and improved from time to time by the discoveries of scientific men. We see it in many things— in medical research and the prolongation of human life as the result, in researches in the diseases of stock, and the improvement of our agricultural methods; we see it in our locomotives, telegraphs, flying machines, and in a hundred other ways. In this matter of coal our scientific men have pointed out what we ought to do. We are a conservative nation, and we move slowly. It took the farmers almost half a century to take advantage of the discoveries made in connection with stock diseases, and I hope we shall not wait as long for the undoubted benefits that will accrue to this country if we take up this matter seriously. We have our own trusted men who have shown us and pointed out the way, and if we do not take advantage of our great natural resources, and, at any rate, provide for our own wants, in oil, petrol and other similar things, and our wants are increasing from year to year, other nations will step in and reap the benefit.

I second and heartily support the motion of the hon. member for Dundee (Sir Thomas Watt). I do not intend going through everything again, as I have, on a former occasion, quoted figures in this connection. The matter is important enough to merit discussion. We know that in various countries, and particularly in Germany, great progress has recently been made in the winning of oil and petrol from coal. It is not only possible in a laboratory, but is also a success in practice. As far as I know, the German experiments relate chiefly to brown coal, that is coal of lesser value, and I do not know whether the experts are satisfied that the results will be just as favorable with black coal, but we know that they agree that the Transvaal coal contains much oil. It is, therefore, also suited to get oil from. I have tried before to fix the attention of hon. members on our country’s richness in oil, especially in oil shale. If the mining of our oil shale is developed it might become a great industry. I do not think it is necessary to say much more in favour of the motion, because all members of the House are convinced that it is of extraordinary importance. Now I only want to say a few words more about the cost of the enquiry. I do not believe we have the right to expect the coal industry to pay the cost of the investigation. The coal industry makes it possible for many other businesses to work at a profit, and the railways almost live on the carriage of coal. The railways are a Government venture, and it is only right that the State should bear the cost of the investigation, in the interests of the country. I should mention a point in connection with the commission which enquired into the oil riches of our country. The report is three years old and I shall be glad to know what the policy of the Minister is. Is the Government prepared to put money on the estimates for the exploiting of oil, to develop the country. There is much torbanite in my district and I want to express my appreciation of the sympathy shown by the Minister and the Board of Trade and Industries for the company, registered in Germany, which made the enquiry. They found that the extent of the layers was not sufficient to proceed further, but although the torbanite is rather thin, it will be a payable proposition if oil can be got out of the layers of coal above and below it.

The former speaker prevented me from seconding the motion. I have long felt that there should be an enquiry into the great coal fields of the Transvaal. We import about £4,000,000 to £5,000,000 worth of petrol from America every year. The amount is possibly still larger, but whatever it is, a large sum goes out of South Africa every year, making the country poorer, and it is absolutely unnecessary. We have extensive coal fields, where we can get petrol for our own country. Now the hon. member has asked for a survey, but that is not much; he asks for a little encouragement, but I will say that the Government should undertake the exploitation itself. The rich American magnates with great resources will probably not allow anyone in our country to start working coal to manufacture petrol. At least I doubt it strongly. If the Government confines itself to surveys the matter will not advance a bit. In my opinion the Government should seriously consider whether the time has not come for us to make a start ourselves in South Africa. The hon. member said that in Germany they had already proved that it was possible to make oil from a bad kind of coal. Our coal here is much better, why then should we allow ourselves to be exploited and the money to go out of the country. I fear that if the Government does not look after the development of the industry itself, the American magnate will not allow it to come to fruition here. We had an example of this when they tried some years ago to obtain oil from mealies. We well remember how the people all bought shares, and before the industry was well started it was killed. That is why I fear that any company that tries to get oil out of coal will be squeezed out immediately by the American oil companies who are interested in opposing the establishment of such an industry. Let the Government take the matter in hand. There are coal fields thousands of miles long in the Transvaal and yet our money is going out of the country for the products which we have here. I hope the Minister will take just as much interest in this as in the iron and steel industry. It is really time now that the Government tackled this matter. Various industries are dependent on petrol and oil, and if they want to compete with the European producers they ought to be able to get fuel in our own country. Our agriculture, e.g. can in the long run only exist if it is thoroughly modernised, and, for that, machinery using petrol is required. This industry is more important than the iron and steel industry.

It gives me great pleasure to support this important motion which I take it deserves the earnest consideration of the Government. When we come to consider our position in regard to oils used in this country we are faced with the fact that practically not one gallon of oil is produced in this country. The whole of our requirements are imported from overseas. In view of the industrial expansion which is taking place, and the growing demand for light oils for combustion engines, I consider the matter so important that no Government can disregard the motion now before the House. I submit it is the Government’s duty to take every possible step in order to ascertain whether it is possible to manufacture or produce oils from our coal and oil shales. In this direction might I suggest to the Minister that if he sets up a scientific investigation bureau which would collect all the information which has been obtained in other parts of the world and core-late that information and at the same time scientifically investigate the volatile ingredients and the chemical and physical properties of our coal and oil shales in this country it would give an opportunity to people with capital to ascertain what the exact position is. It is necessary to give a few figures to show exactly the oil consumption per annum in South Africa. I have taken the trouble to look up the demand and growth of the consumption of oil which has taken place since 1922. I find that the demand for mineral oil (exclusive of animal and vegetable oils) has been as follows: In 1922 we imported, in million gallons, 15.3; in 1923, 27.5; in 1924, 39.5; in 1925, 37.5, and in 1926, 54.5. The House will therefore observe that since 1924 we have practically imported four times as much in 1926. The petrol importations into South Africa are as follows; In 1922 the country imported 10.6 million gallons and in 1926 34.1 million gallons. The same applies to lubricating oils. Lubricating oils are necessary for our industrial machines, and yet this country to-day is absolutely dependent upon the importation of oils to run its industries. If for any reason the importation was stopped our industries would come to a standstill and therefore I think the Minister will agree this matter is one deserving careful and serious consideration. To show the expansion in motor vehicles in South Africa we imported in 1922, 4,840 motor cars, and in 1925 18,396. There has also been a tremendous expansion in tractors used largely in farming areas. Particularly in Natal. There are a large number of farmers using tractors simply because they are finding land so valuable that it does not pay economically to keep animal transport. There is also expansion so far as the railways are concerned. Of late years they have expanded enormously in motor transport, and it is interesting to find from the figures what the position is in that direction. In 1921 the railways had 21 motor vehicles and in 1926 they had 99. For the half year of 1927 they had 150 motor vehicles and the tonnage carried was for 1926, 20,472 tons, and for the half year of 1927, 17,732 tons. The consumption of fuel has gone up from 15,000 gallons in 1921 to 135,000 gallons in 1926, and for the half year of 1927, 139,000 gallons. The total revenue for the half year in 1926 from motor transport was £62,000. It is recognized throughout the country that the best means of bringing the rural areas into closer contact with the main railway lines is by motor transport, and thereby the farmer is helped to get closer to the markets to market his assets and I think it is a very fine thing for this country to extend motor transport. When we consider the question of oil consumption in this country and that we do not produce one gallon of oil it is a question which should call for serious consideration. The figures in America are still greater. The expansion there has been enormous and I think the time is not far off, according to scientific reports, when America will consume the whole of her oil production. It is possible that eventually she may prohibit the export of oils to other countries. According to the report of the American scientific geological survey, it is estimated that in 30 or 40 years the whole of America’s oil supply will have been used up, and the question of the prohibition of the export of oil is already within the pale of serious deliberation in the United States of America. Oil is also being used very largely by ships. We are having ships arriving in this country which are using oil. Only last week a ship in this country took in 1,600 tons of oil in order to travel back to England. In view of the great advantage which this country receives from its coal production and sale of bunker coal we would have to seriously consider whether, seeing the rapid expansion in the use of oil-burning steamers, we should not change our policy by meeting the increasing demand and requirements of these ships. Apparently the whole of our burning or illuminating oil comes from America. According to figures which I have before me, in 1925 we imported 10,970,116 gallons of illuminating oil, and of that 99.8 per cent. came from America. Hon. members will therefore observe that so far as illuminating oils are concerned, we obtain the whole of our oils from America. Another point brought to my notice is that America to-day is practically consuming the whole of the oil which she is producing. The oil which she is exporting is crude oil which she imports into America and refines and then exports to other countries. She is to-day producing 70 per cent. of the oils of the world. I personally believe that the time is not far off when oil will be produced from coal on a commercial and economical basis. I believe it is possible. All we want in this country is a little encouragement and assistance from the Government for a comprehensive economic and technical examination of our coal and oil shales. I would urge especially that we should acquire, for this country, any patents which are being granted to patentees in other parts of the world, so that this country may be protected against undue exploitation by patentees from other parts of the world.

How can you buy expensive patents for this country unless you are sure of success?

Providence has provided us with very large deposits of coal and it behoves us to use that coal to the best advantage. The whole world to-day is crying out for the more economical and scientific use of its fuel, and it seems to me the time is not far off when, instead of using green coal, the world will be using the by-products of coal in the form of oil and other by-products. I have great pleasure in supporting the motion brought forward by the hon. member for Dundee (Sir Thomas Watt) and I hope the Government will take this matter into very serious consideration, because, as I pointed out, there is the danger that in the near future we may find it difficult to provide the necessary oils that we require for our industrial development.

I wish to support the motion of the hon. member for Dundee (Sir Thomas Watt) and I trust that the Government will give it their very serious consideration. We are all aware of the enormous magnitude of the coal reserves of the Union, and I think that the past Government have been very lax in not putting these large reserves to proper account. I do not quite know what the hon. member for Dundee means by a “physical survey,” but if he means a geological survey in determining the amount of the coal in the Union, I think we have a very complete record in so far as that is concerned. I think our coal measures, so far as the Union of South Africa is concerned, are fairly laid down, and if you take Dr. du Toit’s text book you will find that he will tell you pretty accurately what the area is of the coal measures in various districts. The other question the hon. member touched upon is a very important question, and a question that we shall have to answer for to the rest of the world at no distant period. The old countries are finding that their big coal reserves are being exhausted. We have probably lost two-thirds of the efficient value of the coal by the way those reserves are being worked out. It is a well-known fact that the method of employing the use of coal, as we employ it to-day by converting it to steam power, is the most uneconomical method there is of employing coal. The difference between the two systems, between the conversion of coal into steam power and the synthetic production of say benzol with its by-products, would be about in the proportion of steam coal 35 and the other 75. Apart from that we have this unfortunate position in South Africa, that in our enormous coal beds we have not the higher grades of coal that they have in other countries for export purposes. Our export coal has contained a very high percentage of ash, and it has been necessary for the coal exporters to exploit the coal measures in such a way that to-day only our very best coal is being opened up and exported. The loss in that direction is something enormous. It is only coal within the vicinity of a calorific value of 13 which can be exported, and it behoves the Government to investigate what the State is losing by this expensive method which we are using to exploit our coal. The trouble which the Government is going to be faced with is the trouble which South Africa has been up against in most of the exploitation of any other of its products. Take, for instance, the synthetic preparation which the hon. member for Dundee has referred to from the coal as it is done in Germany. It is recognized in Germany to-day that the production of oil fuel from coal is in sight, but there are some difficulties which have to be overcome and the difficulty we have to overcome is that that method requires a considerable amount of capital. In South Africa to-day you have the coal interests who have their own axes to grind in exporting fuel. Then you have the big oil interests, who view with suspicion any incursion into the fruitful field which they are exploiting in South Africa. There is not the slightest doubt that if the Government tackled this question in a liberal spirit they would produce enough oil to replace practically the whole amount, which the hon. member for Newcastle (Mr. Nel) quoted. He said something like 54,000,000 gallons of mineral oil were consumed last year in this country. That is a market we have at our feet. It is not a proposition that is going to be tackled by private enterprise. It was whispered some time ago that certain German firms had approached the Government to the effect that if they could get a concession for a closed period, they were quite prepared to invest a large amount of capital in certain spots on the coal area. How far that is true I do not know. In supporting the hon. member for Dundee (Sir Thomas Watt) I do it from the other angle from which the subject ought to be approached, that is, the enormous waste in the methods used in the production of our coal products at the present time. There is nothing to prevent the utilization of this coal. If you go through our coal areas you will see these enormous dumps, some of them burning, and a lot of them burnt out, and it is only recently that at the power station at Witbank the slack and refuse has been used, and the Government has taken the first step to prevent waste. The next step will be for the Government to see whether there is not some economical way of employing our coal. The big question England has to decide, and she looks upon it as the solution of her troubles in regard to the coal question, is this conversion which she foreshadows. If England had taken the same measures at the commencement of the exploitation of her coal fields, as we have done in practically a virgin country, her position would have been very different to-day. I think we are exporting something like 12,000,000 tons of coal per annum. That is practically the pick of our coal, and the waste that is taking place to produce that coal is simply terrific. With these remarks I support the motion, and I hope the Minister will give it very favourable consideration.

I also want to support the hon. member for Dundee (Sir Thomas Watt), but I want to go further. The hon. member only asked for a survey and enquiry, but said that the Government must bear the cost and not the coal mines. If, however, the Government is to bear the cost, the State and the tax-payer must also benefit. We heard much in the past about the making of petrol in South Africa; that it is made from sweet potatoes, and that motors have already been driven with it; that it is made from mealies, and from prickly pears. But all the attempts were smothered at birth. By whom? We know that every year there is a civil war between America and Mexico about petrol. The petrol kings are pulling the strings. We need not imagine that if petrol is found here the petrol companies will not crush similar undertakings if they are in private hands. Therefore the Government must take the matter up and exploit it. As for the experiments they have been successful with regard to brown coal. Why then should we not turn our attention to this coal?

Where is the brown coal? In Namaqualand?

Yes, in Namaqualand. It is astonishing, but the layer there is no less than 14 feet thick, but no capital is obtainable to exploit it. It has been known for the last ten years, and samples have been sent to all parts of the world. We cannot get any capital. The petrol companies do not want it to be worked. We know that the experiments with brown coal were a success, so let us commence with that. I should like the Minister to make the enquiry, but if petrol is found the State must have the right of intervening. Otherwise there will be a danger that it will get into the hands of the same monopoly it is in to-day. If the State exploits it, we know that South Africa will benefit.

I did not intend taking part in the debate, but after the speech of the hon. member I must say a few words. Namaqualand possibly has very great prospects. The Witwatersrand in the early days did not mean much, and yet to-day the great gold fields are there. As far as I know four great discoveries have already been made in Namaqualand, namely diamonds, grapes, coal and mustard.

It is, of course, evident that the hon. member for Dundee (Sir Thomas Watt) has immersed himself in the many interesting aspects of this very important question. Certainly it is a most important question, and I congratulate him on his industry and on the very valuable information he has imparted to the House. He must bear in mind, however, that the whole world has only just awakened to this new aspect. I remember reading some years ago in an American scientific journal a very strong protest against the wastefulness of the human race as regards the consumption of coal in the ordinary way. I believe it is calculated that between 80 per cent. and 90 per cent. of the valuable constituents of coal are lost in the ordinary method of burning coal. It is, of course, true that very important experiments have been made in Germany, and Germany to-day is in the fortunate position that she can utilize and utilize very beneficially a large portion or almost everything of her brown coal, that was considered a comparatively short while ago practically valueless. There is no objection to the motion, but the position is that the Government has already been going in the direction indicated by the motion. I am entirely sympathetic towards the whole question, and sympathetic towards the motion, but the Government has really been doing something already. The point of the hon. member, however, is that we are moving too slowly. The world is moving very slowly in regard to this question. We are doing our best, and we will do our best further. It is certainly an important matter also with regard to our economic development which we are all striving to bring about on as large a scale as possible. It is advisable for us to watch the experiments in the rest of the world, and especially Germany. I believe some large firms in Germany have spent millions in regard to the Bergius process, and we can be benefited greatly by the lessons that will be taught by these experiments. There are two big processes, one that of Bergius known as the hydrogenization, and that of Fischer, the conversion of water gas into liquid hydro carbons, both have for their main object the obtaining of oil from coal. In the views of our experts we have a unique position in South Africa, both geographically and economically, and it is regarded almost as one of the logical concomitants so to say of a big iron and steel industry in this country. The Government is considering the appointment of a special geologist who will deal solely with this question, and establish a fuel research station. The hon. member for Vredefort (Mr. Munnik) is under a misapprehension as to the word “physical” occurring in the motion. By physical they mean a survey of the physical properties of coal, such as its hardness, brittleness, coking propensity, and so on, as opposed to its chemical composition. It is calculated that we are almost second in the world in this respect with no less than 250,000 million tons of coal, and our potential wealth can be reckoned in some thousands of millions of pounds. England, as I understand, has a coal reserve of only 180,000 million tons. Then, of course, there is the important question of all these by-products. Another important point is the reduction of the ash contents of coal suitable for coking, which will crop up directly in connection with our iron and steel industry in the country. I have diverted a sum of money for research specially for this purpose, and I hope to make representation to my colleagues to increase that. There is no probability, I may tell my hon. friend from Namaqualand (Mr. Mostert), of petrol being found in Sooth Africa in the form in which he evidently contemplates it. Naturally, we can make petrol out of coal, but there is no probability of gusher oil, oil wells, being found in South Africa. I may say that a gentleman called upon me a few days ago, and it was pointed out to me that there was a possibility of oil wells being found in the Orange Free State, but the general geological opinion is against this expectation, and they regard the evidence as evidence of a trick and nothing commercially payable. Another aspect of the question is the high price of oil in its various forms, by which industrial development is being hampered. We might be poorly off and in a parlous condition in time of war. There is said to be a probability that in the course of years—one cannot say when, of course—the United States may be consuming its own production of oil. The hon. member for Dundee (Sir Thomas Watt) alluded to the memorandum of the Board of Trade and Industries, which was written simply for the information of the Minister and is not a formal report, but is a very important document, and I will see what I can do to render it available. I am not making any promise, but I will see what can be done. The consumption of oil is so enormous that it is expected that it will not take very long before the natural oil supply—gusher wells—will be exhausted. Our purchase of oils amounts to about 3 millions per annum, and we get 60 per cent. of that from the United States, and 90 per cent. of the petrol. The hon. member has touched on the question of bounties, bonuses and premiums, and that is a matter which the Government will consider; I cannot make any promise at all with regard to it. He said that the oil fuel report had been pigeon-holed. No, the Government have not lost sight of it, The hon. member, as an ex-Minister, will appreciate that because a commission as appointed by the Government it does not necessarily act on its recommendations. In this case it is a very valuable report, and the Government is bearing that report in mind. We have been approached on several occasions —in fact, on more than several—by various interested parties with regard to oil, and the production of petrol in South Africa, or at any rate, the importation of petrol in bulk so as to render the price more reasonable to the consuming public. These people all want a monopoly, and I do not see how the Government would be justified in doing this sort of thing on a monopoly basis. With regard to oil shale, I will deal with that specifically presently. In June, 1926, a company of German engineers representing the Miag Actien Gesellschaft of Brunswick were given assistance and facilities by the Government Mining Engineer to investigate the conditions in connection with oil shale in the Ermelo district, which were continued in June and February, 1927. I gave an interview to them in February last year, but the matter, unfortunately, did not come to fruition for the reasons stated by the hon. member for Ermelo (Col.-Cdt. Collins). In March, 1927, in order further to investigate the advisability of undertaking such a survey, I appointed a Coal Survey and Research Committee under chairmanship of Professor R. B. Young. This committee was appointed to advise the Minister on the institution of a physical and chemical survey of the coal resources in the Union, and on matters connected with the production of oil and petrol from coal and oil shale. To facilitate the work of the committee two sub-committees were formed— the Coal Survey Committee and the Coal Research and Investigation Committee. The former consisted of Dr. A. W. Rogers, Mr. John Roy, Mr. T. N. Dewar and Dr. P. N. Lategan—a very able young South African—as advisory member. Its programme of work included (a) geological survey: geological survey of coal seams as outlined in the report of the Coal Survey Committee; (b) physical and chemical survey: collecting, classifying and correlating all data relating to occurrences and to the physical and chemical properties of various seams, and incorporating this information on geological maps; (c) collecting of publications: that steps be taken for the collection, classification and exchange of literature and publications dealing with the above matters. The Coal Research and Investigation Committee consisted of Dr. J. McCrae, Sir Robert Kotze, Dr. H. Pirow, Mr. John Roy, with Dr. P. N. Lategan as advisory member, and its programme of work read as follows: (1) Investigations, tests and experiments to be carried out on the preparation and utilization of coal fuel, including oil shales, with special reference to: (a) conversion of coal into oil by methods other than by carbonization; (b) coke production and utilization of by-products. (2) Steps to be taken for the collection, classification and exchange of literature and publications dealing with the above matters. The work done to date may be briefly summarized as follows: (1) Drawing up of a definite programme of investigation and allotting of suitable work to the sub-committees; (2) gathering in of information regarding publications and literature available in the Union and overseas; (3) laboratory experiments carried out by Dr. Lategan on the coking propensities of selected samples of Transvaal coal and tests on the reduction of their ash content by washing; (4) certain working scale tests in Natal on coking and washing of Transvaal coal were also carried out on behalf of the Coal Owners’ Association, who kindly placed the results obtained at the disposal of the Coal Survey and Research Committee. There is no objection in principle to the motion. The Government is entirely sympathetic, but I am afraid the hon. member is expecting us to move more rapidly than circumstances either enable us or justify. With a little patience it will all come right. I do not see the necessity for the motion, but at the same time I have no objection to the House formally accepting it.

I think the House is deeply indebted to the hon. member for Dundee for having brought forward this matter and for having elicited this very interesting discussion. There is no doubt that it is a subject of the most far-reaching importance, and the Minister should in no way resent—

I did not resent.

He should not in any way object or think the motion unnecessary. We cannot sufficiently concentrate public attention on the development of our great mineral resources. There is no doubt that South Africa has been largely built up in the last generation or so on its mineral resources. It is a country of quite outstanding mineral resources, and the phenomenal development that has taken place since the seventies has been entirely due to the development of our mineral resources. Unfortunately the resources we have been exploiting for the last fifty years or more are an entirely wasting asset—gold and diamonds mostly. Now and then we have a new fillip in the diamond situation and a new outbreak of diamonds, but on the whole diamonds, like gold, will be a wasting asset. It is necessary for us if we want to stabilise our great mineral industries, to secure permanent prosperity and a vista of centuries of development. Our coal deposits are quite unique. As the Minister has just stated, compared with the coal deposits and resources of Great Britain, ours are incomparably greater. Great Britain has until recently been looked upon as the great coal producing country of the world. Without a doubt the great coal economic position which England has achieved has been largely due to her vast deposits of coal and the use she has made of them for internal manufacturing purposes and for export. South Africa has very much larger coal resources, and it is a question of the most far-reaching national importance to us that we should develop this unique asset to the fullest. Our attention in the past has been too much concentrated on gold and diamonds and we have counted far too much on them for our prosperity. In the future as these resources in diamonds, gold and precious metals are exhausted we shall have to go in far more for coal development. The question is how to use our coal. We are going to get our chance if the production of oil from coal turns out a commercial success, but the subject in a certain sense is still experimental. Great and very costly experiments are being conducted in Germany. Some measure of success has been achieved with the Bergius process. The processes which have so far been tried have been of an elaborate character and have not yet proved themselves to be commercially practicable. This probably also applies to the Bergius process. There is no doubt that coal is going to be a great source of the production of oil fuel in the future. The oil wells are being used up. I remember some years ago seeing some confidential reports about the oil wells of America, where there is no doubt that the existing oil resources are limited, while America’s consumption of oil is increasing on a prodigious scale. Consequently the rest of the world must contemplate a situation arising in the not distant future when America will be compelled by her own internal needs to keep her oil resources for herself. It has been the same story with maize. A few years ago America supplied the world, and to-day practically no maize is being exported from America, it is all being consumed by herself. The same thing may arise with regard to oil. We are compelled by every consideration of national development, of our future and of world requirements, to look upon this matter as one of great importance indeed. The hon. member for Namaqualand (Mr. Mostert) seems to be under the misapprehension that if we place information before the world concerning our resources, the big interests of the world will combine in order to kill us and see that no development takes place in South Africa. Nothing of the kind! The big oil interests are on the lookout everywhere for new fields of production. Why has there been this trouble about Persia and international situations simmering for years? It is because the oil interests know that oil sources are drying up and new sources have to be opened, and naturally the vast untouched helds of Persia and Mesopotamia are looked upon as sources of supply. There is no danger whatever. If we prove to the world we have the resources here and that our coal is of the proper character for the production of oil, then capital from the whole world will be attracted here. A few years ago one of the biggest oil concerns in the world carefully went into the question of our oil shales. They wanted to see if it was advisable to start production from our oil shales in South Africa, and it was only because they found the oil shales in sight in the Wakkerstroom district were too limited that they withdrew from the attempt. But Wakkerstroom and Ermelo are not the only places. If we had a proper survey and the world saw what our resources really were we should be in a position to attract big money, and big development would take place in this country. Under those circumstances we are called upon to carry out the terms of the motion of our hon. friend. I agree with the Minister, we cannot go too fast, and I do not think we should make any heroic attempt to start a thing which is in its infancy elsewhere. What we want is a physical and chemical survey. People the world over want the information. We know we have assets and that we have unique coal deposits and it may be that large sections of our coal deposits are suitable for oil production. Big finance elsewhere in the world does not know it and we feel such a survey will be valuable if the information is collected and published, and the big interests are convinced South Africa: has the resources here. Once convinced they will come here, because finance is international, and is not bound to a particular country. I am glad the Government has contemplated the appointment of a special geologist, who will give his continued attention to this subject. We want a man who is keen and who will collate the information and who will put it in a form which is digestible and acceptable to the world. I hope the Minister will look upon it as a matter of very great importance. It may not be very urgent now, and I agree we must not rush into the matter, but the information about our resources if published to the world, would give capital a chance of seeing what we have here. That is all my hon. friend wants by his motion. I am very glad he has moved in the matter, and has attracted the attention of South Africa and the Govern merit to this matter.

I am very glad that the motion I have put on the paper has been so well received by the House. I am sure the House will be glad to know, as I am glad to know, that the Government have been moving in this matter. I did not know until the Minister’s speech this afternoon, that the sub committee of the Research Grant Board had done as much as they have done. I hope when the special geologist is appointed he will get in touch with the various collieries which have information in their possession regarding the chemical and physical qualities of their own seams. Experts in Great Britain who are investigating the matter for the Fuel Research Board, are working in collaboration with the colliery managers and engineers in various parts of England and Scotland, and they are making use of the information, as well as of the research work, of the various companies. My principal object in bringing forward this motion was to ventilate the matter and focus public attention on it, and to strengthen the hands of the Minister in inducing his colleagues, especially the Minister of Finance, to back him up with money in connection with this matter. Nothing can be done in the way of a survey without £ s. d. It is a survey in order to know what we have and to publish it to the world in order that capitalists, keenly interested in the matter, may come here and develop our resources. I do not care whether they come from America, Germany or England, but it is our business and to our interest to give them all the information that they ought to get before sinking money in the venture. A great deal of money has already been lost owing to insufficient information. I have it from the people who have lost money that if they had had the information as to the properties of the coal they would have been able to do much better than they did. I have no connection personally with any person interested in the matter, except with certain colliery managers in Natal, who have been considering this matter from the scientific and business point of view, and who are keenly alive to the advantages which would follow from the Government making this survey. In Australia and New Zealand they are getting a move on. In Australia they sent two chemists to work with the Fuel Research Board in England, and they have been there for the last two or three years. New Zealand has sent a student, and even Nigeria is taking some action in the matter and has sent a quantity of coal to London to be tested by the Fuel Research Board. In regard to the second part of my motion, the question of the oil shale is, I think, in rather a different category, and it seems to me, from the report I referred to, as if the time were ripe for action to be taken. The reason I feel that a bonus is required is that we have powerful companies controlling the oil and petrol situation throughout the world. They may, first of all, try to establish themselves here, to exploit our own resources, or, if not, they certainly will fight to prevent any other persons doing so and undercutting them and driving them out of the business. Therefore, I think, in order to induce any person to risk a large sum of money in starting a new industry, it will be necessary to grant a bonus. Another reason is that a very large amount of capital, as the Minister has said, will be required in connection with starting this industry, and it would be of such paramount importance to this country if an industry is established that it is worth while spending the money which was mentioned. I do not want to take up any further time of the House, excepting to thank the Minister for his reception of the motion.

Motion put and agreed to.

I move—

Sheep farming is one of the most important industries in South Africa. We have already bad many plagues threatening its progress. Successive Governments have regarded it as a kind of duty to take steps to eradicate scab, and, as a result of the firm action of the present Minister of Agriculture, we have advanced so far that to-day we practically do not know what scab is. Where I live it is a thing of the past. I think of the days when in the Cape Parliament and other legislative assemblies attempts were made to make political capital out of this matter. We had the plague of the jackals. I remember when the Jackal Act was debated in this House. We no longer regard it as a menace, at any rate, not where I come from. The farmers have fenced their farms. They see to-day that it is the right thing, however much many of them originally opposed it. Thousands of pounds have been spent in fencing, but the jackal plague has been conquered. There is another plague to-day, namely the blue fly. I unhesitatingly bring up the matter in the House. It is a very important one, and we feel that something must be done to assist the farmers against it. To-day farmers with 4,000 or 5,000 sheep have to devote their attention day after day to the sheep in the various camps, otherwise they suffer greatly through blue fly. Five thousand is a fairly large number of sheep for a South African farmer, although it does not mean much in Australia. I look forward to the day when we shall also have 20,000 each, but then we must take steps to get rid of the plague which threatens sheep farming. People have met in my division and formed clubs to get rid of the blue fly. All kinds of methods have been tried, but we had the same experience as with scab, namely, that we cannot successfully combat it without legislation, because there will always be two or three farmers who do not properly co-operate making the work of the other farmers impossible. The latter must be protected. I know the difficulty the Government will have in passing another law of this kind. They will not like to enforce it over the whole Union. We know that the farmers do not like being driven, but I think if there were such an Act, and farmers in one or other district asked for it to be proclaimed it should be done. I am certain that if there were a possibility of that the people in my neighbourhood would immediately ask for it. The cattle farmers in the Transvaal will possibly not like to see the Act applied there, but it is a serious matter for our parts. If the Minister cannot introduce such a Bill this session he may possibly do so in the next. I need not say more, but I am certain public opinion on the point will in the end become so strong that the Minister will be compelled to introduce such a Bill. I ask for the earnest consideration of my proposal.

I second. This is an important matter, and we know that it has the sympathy of the Minister of Agriculture and the Government, but I wonder if the Minister appreciates the seriousness of the position. Five or seven years ago the blue fly plague was entirely unknown. Now there are three different kinds. The plague has extended amazingly fast. Formerly it only occurred where there were plentiful rains, and sheep got green fodder, but now it prevails very seriously in dry parts, and even in the winter. We find that it increases much faster than scab, and that the danger is just as great. It appears that the blue fly can be killed very easily. We used paraffin tins, or a bait of arsenate of soda. The bait system is very effective. Locust poison is also effective, but unless we have full cooperation among the farmers or compulsory legislation, we shall not be able to eradicate the plague. It was also very bad in Australia. I visited a large farm there, where they sprayed as many as 6,000 sheep in a day with arsenite of soda. They drove the sheep through a narrow place and sprayed them. It was necessary so often, however, that it did not effect a riddance. It will be said that the cattle farmers will object, but something must be done to fight the plague. It is developing fast, and the Minister must not delay. By co-operation among the farmers the plague can easily be eradicated, but, unfortunately, they are slow in that, and legislation is necessary. There are always people who must be forced by legislation.

I am very grateful to the hon. member for Albert (Mr. Steytler) for bringing up this matter. The blue fly is undoubtedly one of the greatest troubles of the farmer. Fortunately we have succeeded in fighting most of the difficulties in connection with sheep breeding. It is true that something must be done to stop the spreading of blue fly and to eradicate it, but I do not think the time is ripe for legislation. Instead we ought to make more propaganda for fighting the plague and the farmers should co-operate to eradicate it. The hon. member for Graaff-Reinet (Mr. I. P. van Heerden) said that it was not difficult to fight the fly if a good method were employed, and I agree with him, if the farmers only stand together. The laying down of poison bait has been a great success. I want to point out to the Minister that locust poison which was experimented with is very useful. It is certain that in eradicating the locusts many blue flies were killed. Cannot the Minister supply that poison, of which probably a large balance remains, to the farmers at a reasonable price? The cause of the increase is chiefly due to the fact that farmers who are less particular allow dead animals to lie on the veld, and these form the hatching places of the blue fly. Information should be given to the farmers, but I cannot vote in favour of the Bill. It is necessary for the farmers to stand together and look after their own interests.

I agree that it is the duty of the Government to fight plague, but I cannot understand why the hon. member for Albert (Mr. Steytler) asks for legislation. Has he considered what this will mean to the farmers? The result will be that the Act will apply to the whole country, because otherwise proper steps arc impossible. The Government will then have to appoint inspectors to see whether the farmers are actually carrying out the directions and eradicating the flies. I think it is hopeless to eradicate blue fly by legislation. The hon. member for Graaff-Reinet (Mr. I. P. van Heerden) spoke about Australia. I did not hear of any legislation although I enquired after the methods of eradication. They established associations to eradicate the fly and were very successful. It is only necessary for the farmers to stand together. Why should farmers who have pure sheep be bothered with legal directions? This country has too many laws. We must not compel the farmers through Parliament, I also have sheep on my farm, and the farmer will keep his sheep clean in his own interests, if he knows a good and cheap method. He is a very poor sheep farmer who does not look after his sheep every day.

I can see that you are not a sheep farmer.

I do not claim to be, but I have sheep on my farm. I maintain that the farmers must stand together. The Government must not be compelled to look after the sheep. Preventives are known and if the hon. member will apply them he will find that he will not have much bother. Must the cattle farmers be penalised, because blue fly damages sheep? If an Act is passed all the farmers will fall under it. It is impossible to destroy the fly in one district and let it remain in another. We have enough legislation, and must not run to the Government for it in every matter and difficulty.

I am obliged to say a few words because the matter is of great importance. The farmers have many troubles, but yet I agree—although I seldom agree with him—with the hon. member for Cradock (Mr. G. C. van Heerden) that we should not pass compulsory legislation.

You two throw much weight into the scale.

I think that the best thing will be to give the farmers the best advice for killing the insects. I am not prepared to vote for legislation. Let us supply the poison cheaply to the farmers, and if they stand together much can be done. The hon. member for Witwatersberg (Lt.-Col. N. J. Pretorius) makes out that it is so easy to look after the sheep. But the sheep creep under bushes and before you notice anything they are dead. The farmers must stand together to eradicate blue fly. We have too many laws, and the Minister should only encourage the efforts of the farmers.

I also would like to testify to the seriousness of the blue fly. It is a very great menace. Those who have not had any experience of it do not appreciate or realise what a menace it is to the sheep industry. We in our district are struggling in like manner to that referred to by the hon. member in an endeavour to combine against the blue fly. I am not in favour of legislation at this stage. I am opposed to unnecessary legislation; we have too much legislation altogether in this country. I think the farmer should be educated up to realize the danger that threatens him, and we should have our agricultural societies and farmers’ associations try to induce people to co-operate in order to combat this plague. I agree that the agricultural department would do a good thing if it followed the example of the Australian agricultural department and issued a pamplet to give farmers some idea as to how they should co-operate and wage war against the blow fly. It is appalling to see the number of sheep lost in Australia as the result of this pest. Unless we take adequate steps to deal with the trouble, we will also be overwhelmed. I do not think the matter is so easily combated as the hon. member for Graaff-Reinet just now said. I am very much in sympathy with the spirit which animated the mover, but we should not press for legislation; rather let us endeavour to get all the information we can and induce our farmers to co-operate to combat the trouble.

Some years ago I was approached by farmers to introduce a Bill of this kind. I refused and said that the Minister was already sufficiently worried with compulsory legislation. Undoubtedly we have here a pretty serious plague, but I think we can do much by co-operation. We must not introduce compulsory legislatin for everything. Unfortunately some farmers always need compulsion to co-operate, but I think that the time is not yet ripe for legislation. Let us wait a little and see if we cannot get co-operation to eradicate the plague in the best way.

I am very glad that the hon. member who introduced the motion has called attention to this matter. I think it is necessary to debate it well, but I do not think legislation is right in this connection. Yet I think that the Minister of Agriculture should give his attention to the blue fly plague, because there is danger of its spreading through the country. In the Bethal division where the plague prevails rather seriously there are many sheep. This bromme is of such a kind that it influences the wool of the sheep and this occasions great loss to the farmers. I think the Minister had better indicate the best method, and the methods should be made cheaper. There are sheep farmers at present who, through financial difficulties, cannot properly treat their sheep. If the treatment is cheaper everybody will, I think, use it. I saw the so-called trap system in operation at a sheep farm, and it was a success. If the Government will supply the poison cheaper, it will much encourage the fighting of this insect. If we do not stop the spreading of the plague it will become worse than the scab. This fly is of a particular kind. I have been a sheep farmer since my youth and I must say that up to quite recently I had never seen this kind of plague. You find a sheep looking sick, apparently without reason. When you catch it, however, you see the blue fly deep in the wool on the flank, while the outer wool appears quite healthy. No legislation is necessary, but I hope the Minister will assist us in another way.

I listened with great interest to the speeches made, and it was clear that only the mover and seconder were in favour of compulsory legislation. Hon. members themselves clearly appreciate the difficulties. It is very easy to talk of compulsion, but very difficult to carry it out. It causes so much unpleasantness that one almost never hears the end of it. I am glad the hon. member for Wakkerstroom (Mr. A. S. Naudé) said that the time was not yet ripe for this Bill. He has some experience of compulsion in his constituency in connection with east coast fever. The eradication of that had to be made compulsory, but many have been the representations and letters which have come in about it. We feel how difficult it is to carry out compulsory legislation. I am not keen on it. It would mean that we should require a number of officials to carry out the law. The scab inspectors cannot do the work. Their number has been reduced and they have their hands full with their own work. What use will it be if we are going to make it optional to districts? As long as there is one district which is not obliged to eradicate the fly it will not do much good. The fly goes from one place to another. I think the time is not yet ripe for this legislation. My department has long been engaged in investigating the subject and ascertaining the best way of fighting the blue fly. We feel the seriousness of the matter. Many sheep are lost, especially in the rainy season, and we are doing all in our power to find the best method of eradication. Some hon. members have said that the Government has a large supply of locust poison, and that it ought to he delivered to the farmers in any event at cost price. Some time ago it was announced that we would deliver as much as they wanted at cost price. It is not only a good thing for fighting blue fly, but also “gifblaar.” The price is, I think, 7s. 6d. for a 3-gallon tin, and the Government cannot be expected to sell it cheaper. The sheep farmers are in the fortunate position of having a profitable industry. I want to point out that the Government has already spent £400,000 on eradicating stock diseases. We are anxious to assist the sheep farmers, but it surely cannot be expected that we should give the poison for nothing to the farmers who are making profits. I think the motion has had a good effect in fixing attention on this matter, but the Government is not prepared to agree to legislation. I assure the hon. member that I will do my best to try and find other more systematic ways of eradicating blue fly. I only hope that the farmers will assist. I feel it is absurd for the farmers always to be running to the Government for legislation seeing that farming is their own business; it is their stock, their own means of existence. They surely must look after themselves; if the sheep are not worth looking after, it is a sad state of affairs. I fear compulsion will possibly do more harm than good. I hope the hon. member will withdraw the motion, and I assure him I will do my best to find the best remedy. I just want to give some information to the sheep farmers from my department. If a sheep is infected with blue fly then the easiest way to rid the sheep of it immediately is to wash it with petrol. One notices the infection at once, and it is an immediate remedy to rub the places with petrol. Five minutes later they are dry, and no occasion is given for any further infection being caused by the sheep.

Is it not bad for the wool?

No.

I do not want to take up the time of the House, but I agree legislation of the character suggested by the hon. member is such that the country is not ripe for at the present moment. Before you can have legislation of that character you must have a great deal more information of the history of the blue fly. It is a great scourge in this country, but not perhaps so great as it is in Australia, and I rose to impress upon the Minister the necessity of getting into touch with the Australian department because it is only by the closest research work and by getting into touch with other sections that you can get all the information that has been obtained by the best brains of all departments. In Australia there is a great deal of anxiety felt concerning the blue fly, and by getting in touch with them it may be possible to find a remedy which will not only kill the maggots as they breed on the sheep, but will, at the same time, act as a great repellant in preventing the blue fly from sticking to the same sheep again. At one time whale oil, it was thought, was going to have a great effect, and I think whale oil is better than petrol, because the ease with which it evaporates does not give it a repellant character. Perhaps we shall find a substance which will stick to the wool for a considerable time, and by its unpleasantness to the fly it may prevent it from striking the same sheep again. If that can be discovered, a great deal of good will be done. In many places in Australia they have put up special spraying apparatus to deal with the sheep because the nest is so bad. The agricultural department will do a great deal of good if they will make available all the information they can get concerning this disease. The danger, I believe, is very serious, and is an increasing danger to the sheep farmers of this country. I think it is one of the most important things the Department of Agriculture and experts, as well as farmers of the country, should devote their attention to.

I am very grateful for the way in which my motion has been received, although most of the hon. members disagree with me. All have acknowledged the great danger to sheep farming and I appreciate the favourable attitude of the Minister and the assurance that he will do everything to ascertain the best way of fighting blue fly. I only wish to say one thing about the speech of the hon. member for Witwatersberg (Lt.-Col. N. J. Pretorius) to the effect that a farmer who does not look after his sheep every day is not a sheep farmer. The hon. member clearly knows nothing about sheep farming. The time is gone when the farmer had a thousand sheep and could easily inspect them all. It has been found necessary to divide a farm into camps, and too many sheep may not be put into a camp or the grass is trodden down. No farmer, be he ever so capable, can look after all his sheep every day. With the permission of the House, I withdraw my motion.

With leave of the House, motion withdrawn.

I move—

seconded.

On the motion of Mr. Steytler, debate adjourned; to be resumed on 21st February.