laid upon the Table—

moved, as an unopposed motion—

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved, as an unopposed motion—

seconded.

Hon. members will see at once why I move this motion. We have accepted this motion to adjourn next Thursday, but the completion of our work depends on getting the other branch of the legislature together, and it is not quite certain that we shall be able to, although we have every hope that it will be possible. It is not quite certain that we shall be able to get the legislation, which we consider necessary, through the other place by next Thursday, and we may be thrown into the following week as a consequence. It is simply as a precautionary measure that I move that that Order be discharged.

Order, dated the 31st March, that the House at its rising on Thursday, the 10th April, adjourned until Monday, the 28th April, read by the Clerk.

Motion put and agreed to.

Ek wens voor te stel as ’n onbestrede mosie—

seconded.

Ek wil net sê, nie met die doel om te opponeer nie, maar ek weet nie wat die regsposiesie is nie. Die lid vir Wakkerstroom het nog nie sy setel ingeneem en is nog nie ingesweer nie en nou weet ek nie seker of hy onder die omstandighede beskou moet word as lid van die Huis nie. Die regterlike posiesie is my nie duidelik nie. Ek wil nie opponeer nie—soas gesê—maar eenvoudig voorkom dat ons dalk ’n besluit neem, wat nie op pote staan nie.

Ons het die Konstitusie altoos so uitgelê, dat sodra ’n lid gekose is, dan is hy lid van die Huis, afgesien van die vraag of hy die eed afgelê het of nie.

Motion put and agreed to.

Ek stel voor, als een onbestrede mosie—

seconded.

Agreed to.

I move—

Mr. Speaker, I propose, in order to save time in the business of the House, before Parliament is prorogued, to take the unusual course of making my statement on the motion for leave to introduce the Second Appropriation (Part) Bill. Just let me say, at the same time, that this statement cannot be in the nature of a Budget speech. I assume that Parliament will be prorogued in a few days, and probably will not re-assemble for some months, and that both the House and the country would like to know of the present state of the finances. I propose, therefore, as briefly as possible, to place the particulars as clearly as may be before the House. The Bill which it is proposed to introduce is to apply a sum of 3½ million of revenue loan and £520,000 extra from loan account. The last time I introduced such a Bill was to get £7,000,000 on revenue account, and £3,200,000 on loan account, which was calculated to carry us somewhere towards the end of June. It is believed that this extra money will carry us over the end of July. When the Budget was introduced a year ago, I estimated that after bringing into revenue £525,000 of loan receipts, there would be a deficit of £200,000, which I hoped would be met by the savings on expenditure. Last month, when the additional estimates were placed before the House, I found that with the very heavy additional expenses on locusts which had been incurred, it looked as if the saving of £365,000 which we were able to make last year, would disappear. I am glad to say that, although the figures for March are not yet complete, they are sufficiently advanced to indicate an increase in revenue of £350,000 for the year, so we find ourselves in a position of having a surplus of revenue of, approximately, £100,000 to which we shall have to add any surrenders from expenditure votes, so that the surplus available for the redemption of debt will be in the neighbourhood of £200,000. In other words, we have been able to get through the year with the assistance of £300,000 from the loan fund, instead of the half million pounds which we had expected to draw. That result can be considered as highly satisfactory. It is due, in the main, first of all to increased importations, resulting in a substantial increase in the Customs duties, and secondly, a great improvement in the yield in the taxation of the gold mines.

Hear, hear.

We are coming to diamonds.

The yield of the general income tax and the super-tax has been, I am sorry to say, substantially less than the estimates. The House would perhaps like to have just a brief reference to one or two of the principal increases and decreases on the revenue estimates. In the matter of customs there has been an increase in the estimates of £420,000. The excise has decreased by £100,000, so that we have a net increase of £320,000 on those two heads. Posts, telegraphs, and telephones, show an increase of £77,000 on posts, an increase of £54,000 on telephones, but a decrease of £47,000 on telegraphs, which, as I have indicated before, is very largely attributed to the extent to which the telephone service itself is impinging on the telegraph service. The income tax shows a decrease of £240,000; the excess profits duty a decrease of £55,000, and the death duties a decrease of £40,000. The result achieved at the end of the financial year which has passed, indicates, and that is in itself most encouraging, substantial improvement in the country’s condition, and that improvement is to be found in various directions.

We have turned the corner.

I hope we have.

Good government!

The improvement is to be found in various directions. We have a marked improvement in commerce and business generally, which is reflected in the customs and mining taxation returns, and reflected also, as hon. members will hear in detail, in the railway traffic receipts. So far as the agricultural community is concerned, the ill-effects of the drought and locust invasion have, to a large extent, been set off by the greater prices obtained for wool. Our imports for 1923 were £57,836,000, as against £51,577,000 for 1922. That is an increase of £6,259,000, to which the majority of the items in the imports contributed. One very satisfactory feature of the returns is the increase in the imports of materials employed in development; materials such as machinery, iron and steel manufactures, timber, implements and things of that sort-materials required for developing industries. I need only just briefly refer to one rather striking feature—if it is to be taken as an indication of increased spending power—and that is the astonishing increase in motor cars. To a very large extent, I think the increase has taken place in the country side, and a notable indication of this is, that they have risen from 4,840 cars of a value of £926,000 in 1922, to 10,151 cars, of a value of £1,721,000. So there is evidently some money in this country still, to buy motor cars!

For the elections.

Our exports are also very satisfactory. In 1923 we exported £73,209,000 worth of goods as against £57,075,000 in 1922. That is an increase of over £16,000,000. You may say that probably the greater part of that is, due to gold and diamonds. It is, but there are other items on the list of exports which give a most cheering indication of the improvement in our agricultural industry. As to this £16,000,000 about £9,600,000 is due to increased export of gold. I should say, here, that this figure must be adjusted if you take in the gold premium, because the customs figures are on the basis of the standard price of gold; the figure will probably be increased to some extent. Diamonds account for an increase of £2,800,000; that is due to improvement in the market. The diamond market, I am sorry to say, has not yet improved to the point at which I should like to see it. We have not yet come to anything like the level of a few years ago, still there has been improvement, and we must hope that that improvement will continue and grow in value. Now I come to wool. There has been an increase in the value of wool exported, to the extent of £1,400,000, and that figure is a striking one when I add that the quantity exported was substantially less than it was the year before. It is pleasing, therefore, that our farmers have received that amount of money for an export which was less than that of the year before, and the reduced export is due, no doubt, to the drought and other conditions through which this country has passed. It is, therefore, a consoling feature of our agricultural industry.

Met ’n verlies van £4,000,000 daarop.

Met ’n verlies van £4,000,000 daarop.

Now as to maize. There has been an increase of £1,600,000, and here it is not merely a question of the increase, the quantity and the value are, both of them, more than double the previous year’s export. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] Yes, the quantity and the values are both more than doubled. We exported in 1922, 272,000 tons to the value of £1,426,000 and last year 564,000 tons to the value of £3,084,000. As to the present crop, the last figures I have, show that up to the end of February last 5,800,000 bags of maize and maize products were exported. That was the highest figure yet reached. To-day, unfortunately, owing to the drought the crop is likely to be the smallest for some years, but I am happly to say that although only an equivalent to two-thirds of the entire crop of last year has been planted this season, the rains we have had since February have brought about a change for the better, and unless the early frosts intervene, the Agricultural Department is hopeful that they will still be in a position to have a small surplus. There has been an increase to the extent of £500,000 in hides and skins; that has followed, of course, the increased price of wool. As to production, the principal increases—and that is really the most striking feature of the progress of 1923— in the production of the country are in respect of minerals. We must bear in mind, of course, that during 1922 the position was seriously affected by the strike which took place in the early part of that year. The gold increased by 2,133,000 ounces of a value of £8,711,000. Silver increased by 151,000 ounces, of an increased value of £25,000. Diamonds show a total increase of 1,385,900 carats, of an increased value of £3,771,000. The output of coal was a record last year; it amounted to 11,915,000 tons, of a value of £3,714,000. That is an increase in the output over the previous year of 2,181,000 tons of a value of £319,000. There is one item—though I do not want to weary the House with the various details of these things or with too many figures—but there is one item of interest in connection with the mineral production, and that is copper. The shipments of copper increased from 659 tons, valued at £38,000, to no less than 6.856 tons, of the value of £394,000. Most of this is attributed to the increased operations in the Messina Mine. If I may just trouble the House with a few figures on the question of the direct revenue I spoke of a moment ago of the gold mines, which have contributed very largely indeed towards our comparatively happy position at the end of the year which has passed. As regards the gold mines the total direct revenue—I won’t trouble the House with the detailed figures—was for 1922-’23, £1,948,000. For the year which has passed the total direct revenue was £2,793,000, which is indeed a very heavy advance. As to diamonds, the revenue, although much greater than in 1922-’23 and the previous year, is very little above the estimates in total, and even this favourable position is due to the profits of the Premier Mine having been abnormally large, and to the sale of a quantity of diamonds from stock. As I have said, the position of the diamond market is still a very long way below that of pre-war times, and I suppose until world conditions as a whole begin to improve materially, we cannot expect to return to those normal demands, but at the same time one welcomes the improvement that has taken place. Now I shall just proceed to give the House a few figures with regard to our loan account. I will not trouble the House with all the detailed figures, but they are available to hon. members who want to go into them and look through them; the total net sum received into the loan account was £16,157,000, and the expenditure from these funds amounted, under the Appropriation Act to £10,975,000. We raised three stock loans during the year, one locally and two in London. The local loan was designed primarily to repay the five per cent. issue of 1916. That loan, hon. members will remember was free of taxation on income; this loan which was issued in 1916. It was the first loan of any magnitude issued in this country, and in order to make a success of it, I think the Government was justified in exempting the interest from taxation. At the same time, I state quite candidly, my own view of the principle of exemption as a general principle, is that it is not sound. For instance, in the case of this loan, the effect of the five per cent. interest being free of income tax is that so far as the rich investor is concerned, the man who pays super and ordinary tax, is relieved of something like 7¾ per cent., while to the small investor it is worth 5¼ per cent. We took the earliest available opportunity therefore of extinguishing this loan, and this was done with complete success, 7½ million being re-invested, and the remainder being paid off. The total issue of this was £15,000,000, of which £8,700,000 was absorbed by conversions and repayments of Cape annuities and such issues. So of the £15,000,000 issued locally, we got £6,300,000 of new money, which I think is not unsatisfactory in view of the condition of the country. Of the London loan £9,000,000 five per cent. stock was issued in October last at 99½. This loan, which I may say met with great and immediate success on the London market, was raised in the first place for the purpose of raising money for our local works, and the repayment of treasury bills, etc. We made a further issue in February last for the purpose of converting £4,000,000 4 per cent. debentures falling due in June next. As regards temporary loans, the result of our transactions during the year was a reduction of our floating debt by £3,759,000. That is a step in the right direction. We have found during the last year or eighteen months, that it has been cheaper to work upon short-dated money than on a long-dated loan, and we have made use of this means for raising money, but we have for some time been carrying too much of this floating debt, and it would be wise to reduce, it. The sales of Union Loan Certificates total £683,000. That is also not unsatisfactory. We have had less than before because the prices have slightly increased, but I think it is not at all unsatisfactory. Now just a word about our public debt, and a few figures. The public debt at the commencement of the year 1923-1924 amounted approximately to £199,686,000, but we have increased that during the year by the issue of stock and certificates to the extent of £28,683,000. On the other hand, we converted and repaid stock, annuities, etc., to the extent of £20,125,000. So the net increase of debt was £8,558,000, and on the 31st March last our debt was £208.244,000. That is the amount of our public debt.

And quite enough too.

Now, I won’t go once more into the question of how much of that debt is reproductive or not. I think the House is fairly familiar with that, but I just want to say a word in regard to our sinking fund. The sinking fund at the end of the closing year amounted to about 11¼ millions on a cash basis, and the nominal value of the Union Government stock held as investments in these sinking funds was £14,100.000. We have paid off through sinking fund operations £2,118,000 stock and debenture debt during the year under review, making with (a) the stock and debentures paid off by the same methods, i.e., without re-borrowing, from the date of Union to the end of 1922-’23 £8.858,000, and (b) the reduction of floating debt effected with the balances in hand at the date of Union £1,477,000, so the total amount of debt paid off since Union is £12,453,000. When we bear in mind that of our total debt probably only about 32 per cent. is unproductive, is not an entirely insignificant figure in respect of our public debt. Now I just want to say a word or two on this point. I have for some time thought that, in spite of the quite considerable reductions we have made, we do not make sufficient provision by sinking fund towards the redemption of our public debt.

At last.

I do not think that quite sufficient provison is made, and I think that means be taken to improve that situation will be very rightly taken in the interests of the country. Now just one word with regard to the estimates of expenditure as they look for the year to come. The House has had these estimates before it for some time. They total £23,974,648. That is £95,920 less than the estimate for the year just ended, which, as I said in opening, is very close to the actual expenditure for the year. We have added to our expenditure £107,000 to cover charges for departmental telegraph and telephone services, previously rendered free by the post office, so that the true reduction in expenditure is not £95,920 but £2’02,000. I should add that this increased expenditure is mainly for debt charges, provincial subsidies, which we have to meet, higher education grants, and things of that sort, and they have been more than covered by savings under the various votes, which, as I have pointed out, have been very considerable. As to the revenue, I have laid on the Table this afternoon the estimates of revenue for the ensuing year. Hon. members will see that these estimates reflect a revenue of £23,891,000. And the customs receipts are based in these revenue estimates upon the existing customs tariff. Now if you compare—I will not trouble the House with details of these estimates of revenue—if you compare this revenue with our expenditure of £23,974,000, you will find that the year looks as if it ought to come out with a deficit of only £83,000. There will be some additional expenditure, no doubt, but I cannot now indicate the amount. As a matter of fact, most of the additional expenditure, which will have to be considered by who ever has to consider it, is of so uncertain and indefinite a character that it is no use taking it into account in making a statement such as I am making to-day. You have to take beef bounties and such like, and you cannot make an estimate of how much to put down for such items or those of a similar character. Those additional estimates, as well as this small deficit of £83,000, should, I think, be met by savings. It should be possible to meet whatever we are short by saving during the ensuing year, so that it looks clearly from these figures which I have given, that the Minister of Finance who introduces the Budget later in the year should have a comparatively easy and satisfactory task. The present position for the year 1924-’25 indicates that the Union Budget will balance, and it will balance without any increased taxation of any sort—and it will balance without taking a penny from the Loan fund. I see on hon. member’s faces already the pleasure with which they greet the prospect which is before them.

It is extraordinary for this Government.

If it is then’ fate to enjoy these results, about which I must say they seem to be a little previous, well let them enjoy them by all means. It is the position. Both these features are highly satisfactory. I wish the position, so far as taxation is concerned, had got to the point where more taxation could be remitted; but we have not got to that point yet. That is for the future, but for the present, when you remember the circumstances which we have passed through, it is particularly satisfactory that we have been able to present a Budget which can be balanced without increasing taxation or taking a penny from the loan receipts. As to the drawings from the loan funds, the House knows perfectly well what my views have been about that. I have done it and am responsible for it; but I have done it, as I have said, over and over again, on each occasion most reluctantly. Gladly I would have avoided doing it, but if you supplement your revenue by drafts from loan funds, you cannot honestly say your are squaring your Budget. The necessity was forced upon me, simply because of the conditions under which the country was passing. We had to choose whether we would make this Budget balance, no matter what the trouble or the misery, or we had to say that we would nurse the patient back quietly to recovery by giving him artificial assistance, but not giving him enough to spoil him. We chose that course in order to meet the conditions of this country after the war, so that we should not press too heavily upon the people of South Africa at large in order to make our Budget balance at once. We made use of a small sum of loan receipts, because we desired to bring the country by gradual stages out of the position in which it was placed, to let the patient convalesce quietly, and to-day our policy has borne good fruit. We have come through with comparatively small drafts from the loan fund, and for the year to come there should be an even Budget again. Well, we have come through dark and troublesome times, and we have endeavoured simply to do our duty as well as we could to this country. In the course of that duty we have had to do unpleasant and unpopular things, but the one thing which these figures I have given the House now seem to mean is that, after the difficult and strenuous days we have been through, I believe that the light is breaking through at last. No man would be so foolish as to claim that all our trouble was over, and that we were once more set on the road to prosperity; but there are signs now that the light is breaking through, and the future condition of this country is bound to be a better one. I will conclude by saying that my only satisfaction about the part I have had to play in all these difficult and trying times is that we have been able, in spite of the difficult and unpleasant things we have had to do, to bring the country through to its present position.

seconded.

Ons is baie bly om vanmiddag dieselfde optimistiese toon te hoor in die toespraak van die edalagbare die Minister van Finansies, wat ons al so dikwels van hom gehoor het en ek wil van harte hoop, dat ons regtig “round the corner” is. Ek wil nie lank wees nie, maar net ’n paar vrae stel. Ek neem aan, dat die Huis more die geleentheid sal hê, d.w.s. as die twede lesing ook vanmiddag geneem word, om die kwessie te bespreek. Ek wens aan die edelagbare die Eerste Minister iets te vra. Ek siet n.l. uit die koerante, dat die besoek van die Prins van Wallis aan Suid-Afrika gekanselleer is en ek wens te verklaar, hoe ek dink, dat dit ’n baie wyse stap is. Ek moet ewewel dadelik sê, dat ek daarmee geenisins bedoel dat sy besoek nie deur alle seksies verwelkom sou word nie, maar onder die omstandighede kon noueliks iets anders verwag word. Ek voel, dat onteënseglik ’n sterke gevoel van teleurstelling deur vele in die land ondervonde sal word, maar hoop dat dit nie sal verskerp word deur die indruk dat hy in die geheel nie na Suid-Afrika sal kom nie. Ek hoop, dat ek namens alle seksies kan spreek as ek sê, dat indien hy goed vind om te kom, hy deur die volk uit alle seksies begroet sal word met ’n respek en hartelikheid, die sy hoë posiesie en ons volk waardig is.

Rank hypocrisy.

Ek wil graag van die edelagbare die Eerste Minister weet of dit so is. Ek hoop dat die tyd nie ver meer is, wanneer ons ’n fatsoenlike Huis sal hê. Ék hoop dat die Eerste Minister sal sê wat van die berigte waar is. Ten twede wens ek van die edelagbare die Eerste Minister te weet of hy ons wil sê wanneer die algemene eleksie sal plaasvind. Ek dink hy kan besef, dat onder die omstandighede sal ons bly wees om dit te verneem.

It is rather unusual to take the course which the right hon. the Minister has taken and to make practically a Budget speech at this stage, but, of course, his time is short. We are glad to hear that the position is as the right hon. the Minister has said, but it occurs to us on these benches that these increases are all very fine, but at what cost to a number of people have these figures been framed? It is not at all the effect of our national life that is reflected in the figures of imports and exports, and revenue and expenditure. I should like to make a remark—I hope that the interruption of the hon. the Minister of Lands, a responsible Minister, will not be repeated outside the House.

It will be repeated.

The hon. the Minister would not be a Minister in any other country.

I am glad to see an appreciative expression on the right hon. the Prime Minister’s face. We have our big differences, but there are some things on which we try to harmonize. [An Hon. Member: “Why did not the hon. member second the address?”] The right hon. the Prime Minister said that he was going to alter it for one thing, and it never entered my head. I want to say a few words on another point. I hope that the right hon. the Prime Minister will see his way to take the House into his confidence, and state precisely the arrangements which the Government contemplate with regard to the date of the general election. Surely he will give this information, which I think the country is entitled to. With these few remarks we will delay our speeches on the Budget until tomorrow.

I should like to thank the hon. member for Smithfield (Gen. Hertzog) for his appreciative remarks, but there is another side to the question. Supposing the Government had invited H.R.H. The Prince of Wales to carry out the programme, it might have been thought they were trying to make use of him for the purposes of the election. I would like to say I appreciate the hon. member’s remarks, because they show that he now realizes that he has some responsibility. He thinks he has the Prime Ministership within his grasp, but we do not expect he will not hold it, and it shows he appreciates his position. The hon. member for Stamford Hill (Mr. Creswell) also recognizes some responsibility apparently, for we have not heard much about indentured labour from Portuguese East Africa, we have heard nothing about that lately. If there is anything in the nature of indentured labour, it is the Labour Party themselves who are indentured. They obeyed the hon. member as if they were paid mercenaries of one hundred years ago in going to the support of the Nationalists. I hope the hon. member for Smith-field (Gen. Hertzog) will also recognize the nicknamed position of the mining industry, and what it has done for this country. We have heard very much about the backbone of this country—the agricultural industry has been nicknamed the backbone of the country, but the real backbone of agriculture is the mining industry. The right hon. the Minister of Agriculture has recently given cocktails in assisting agriculture through the Drought Distress Relief Bill, which the unfortunate farmers deserve, and with which we sympathize, but this has simply been done through the aid of the gold mining industry. If there was no gold-mining industry, there would be a poor agricultural industry. I have nothing more to say but to give the hon. member for Smith-field (Gen. Hertzog) a little advice. His ambition is evidently within his grasp—he may be disappointed, for nature sometimes turns on people—but if he is not he should work to promote the three prominent industries in this country, viz., the mining industry, the agricultural industry and transportation. If he does that well, we will all go ahead.

I do not think we want to follow our friend the Republican baronet, but I would like to get on to another question which is agitating to a very large extent, the people of the Free State, particularly in my constituency. I would like to ask the hon. the Minister of Public Health whether to-morrow he will make a statement with regard to the plague position in the Free State. We regret to hear that in Bloemfontein, not in the town but in the district, there have been five or six cases of bubonic plague, and the rodents are all infected. I think before the House prorogues the hon. the Minister should make a statement assuring the farmers that matters are not so bad as they imagine; and advising them what they should do in the case of an epidemic. It would do a great deal of good, and I hope the hon. the Minister will take the opportunity to-morrow.

I will make a statement to-morrow.

I rise simply to reply to the two questions which have been put to me by the hon. the Leader of the Opposition and the hon. member for Stamford Hill (Mr, Creswell). With regard to the Prince’s visit, the statement which has appeared in the press is quite true. As soon as the Government came to the conclusion that we should take the course which we have intimated to the House, we advised the Prince at the same time that under all the circumstances, although he would be perfectly welcome in South Africa, it would be much better to postpone his visit here. We have assured the Prince, and I think in doing so we have acted on behalf of the country, and of every shade of opinion in this country, that he will have a most royal welcome from every section of the community. The Prince is assured of that. It is only the proprieties of the case that have induced us to advise him to postpone his trip for the present. I think it would be unfair to our Royal visitor, and, unfair to the people of this country, to mix up his visit with the sort of turmoil that we have in this country, and necessarily must have, at election times. Of course, it was also open to the construction which was, unfortunately, yesterday placed upon it by the hon. member, that such a contingency as a visit of the Prince might be exploited for political purposes. I think that would be very unfair and very wrong of any Government, and I do not think any Government of this country would make use of an occasion like that for such a purpose.

A very unworthy remark to make.

I must leave that to the good taste of the hon. member, but the hon. member has made so many unkind remarks about me that I do not feel profoundly affected.

What remarks?

I remember reading a speech delivered not so long ago by the hon. member at a place not very far from here, where he was by no means complimentary to me.

As reported in the Cape, Times!

It is practically a lie from beginning to end.

We all agree about the Prince’s visit, and I hope that when the elections are over the invitation will be renewed, and that the people of this country will have an early opportunity of seeing their future king here in their midst. I know that he is very anxious to come. He told me last year when I was in London that he was most anxious to see this country, and to show his personal interest in our affairs as a dominion, and I am sure that if the invitation were renewed immediately after the elections, he would probably find an occasion to come. The hon. member for Stamford Hill (Mr. Creswell) has asked for some information about this election.

What of the second question?

I am coming to that. Let me say that as at present advised, it is the intention of the Government to advise the dissolution of the House on the 9th of May. Certain preliminary work has to be got through, not in the way of electioneering, because there will be ample time. I am sorry that so much time has really to be taken before we can actually get to a poll, but the electoral rolls have to be made in order, certain legal formalities have to be complied with, and I do not think that under all the circumstances it will be safe for us to dissolve before the 9th of May. It is the intention of the Government to have the election about the middle of June. It is not possible to fix the date, but, hon. members may take it that it will be about the middle of June, three or four days either way, it is impossible to decide now, but between the 15th and the 20th June, very likely, we shall fix for the poll. That is as much information as I have at present, and I merely give it to hon. members because no doubt it is a matter of profound interest to all parties to know where they are.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill brought up and read a first time; second reading to-morrow.

I move—

Hon. members will remember that the estimates presented to Parliament last session provided for a gross expenditure of £23,367,476 and an estimated gross revenue of £22,854,227, the estimated deficit on the year’s working being £513,249. It will also be recalled that the accumulated deficit at the 31st March, 1923, amounted to £2,220,510, so that, after adding to that figure the deficit estimated for 1923-’24 of £513,249, there was a prospect that at the 31st March, 1924, there would be a total accumulated deficit of £2,733,759. Now it will also be remembered that when the estimates or additional expenditure for 1923-’24 were before the House on the 27th of February last, I informed hon; members that I expected we would probably wind up the year with the accumulated deficit at the 31st March, 1924, which would be reduced to £1,000,000. Well, Sir, I am sure the House will be glad to learn that the actual position is likely to be even better than was then forecasted and that in place of the year’s working resulting in a deficit of £513,249, making the accumulated deficit £2,733,759, the year’s working is likely to produce a surplus of £1,387,672, thus reducing the accumulated deficit to £832,838, and consequently indicating an improvement over the original estimates to the extent of £1,900,921. This improvement is mainly due to the actual revenue exceeding the estimated revenue by £1,599,962, while a reduction in the expenditure of £300,959 accounts for the remainder of the improvement which, as just stated, amounts to £1,900,921. This state of affairs has, of course, only been made possible by effecting economies in working, and by curtailment of services in many directions. But for the continuous efforts which have been and are still being made by the Administration and its officers to reduce expenditure, the position which I have just disclosed could not have been achieved and the prospects for the future would have caused much anxiety. It must not, of course, be forgotten that we have still a large deficit to liquidate and that being so the Administration will, I hope, continue its efforts to work the various services as economically as possible, consistent with efficiency, as until the deficit is completely liquidated the position cannot be regarded as satisfactory. From the commencement of the financial year in April, 1923, each month’s working has resulted in a surplus. For the three months ended 30th June the surplus amounted to £220,752, for the quarter ended 30th September the total was £330,116, and for the quarter ended 31st December last the surplus rose to £553,912. So that for the nine months, April to December, 1923, the excess of receipts over expenditure was £1,104,780. It should be noted, therefore, that there was a gradual improvement in the results for each quarter up to the end of December last, the large increase in the surplus for the last of these three quarters being due in a large measure to the additional passenger revenue obtained during that period from passenger excursion traffic. The month of January has returned a surplus of £217,535, and for the months of February and March it is estimated that there will be a surplus of £65,357, which gives the total surplus for the year already stated of £1,387,672. The estimated surplus of £55,357 for the months of February and March may appear to be very low in comparison with the January surplus of £217,535, but this is accounted for by the drop in the revenue for February owing to there being only 25 working days as against 27 in January, and also by reason of the expenditure in March being above normal owing to the closing of the accounts for the financial year in that month, and to the numerous annual payments which have to be made and adjustments effected in the accounts in order to bring to debit all known expenditure pertaining to the year. In order that hon. members may be in a position to follow what I have to say regarding the salient features of the year’s working from a financial point of view, I will now quote the amount of the variations in the revised estimated revenue and expenditure as compared with the original estimated figures—

These increases and decreases, together with full details pertaining thereto, will be found in the “Green Book,” which will be distributed to hon. members this afternoon. The outstanding feature of the year’s working is the increase in the revenue over the estimate by approximately £1,600,000. Of the total increase then of £1,600,000 in revenue, approximately £1,433,000 has been obtained from railways, and £207,000 from harbours; while, on the other hand, the revenue from steamships has been less than that estimated by approximately £38,000. The increase of £1,431,000 in the railways revenue is made up of—

Dealing first with the revenue obtained from the Main Services (Railways), it will be remembered that the revenue originally estimated to be received from this source was £20,253,200, whereas it is now estimated that the total will amount to £21,693,406, or an anticipated increase of £1,440,206. The original estimate was based on an average revenue of £388,000 per week, and in my Budget speech of last session I informed the House that that was a fairly safe estimate. Well, sir, I need hardly say that it is very gratifying to find that the total revenue of the railways for the past year has exceeded our expectations, and to such an extent that, instead of receiving an average weekly revenue of £388,000, as originally budgetled for, the average has been £413,000, or an increase of £25,000 per week. This very large increase is due to the fact that the tonnage of traffic transported during the year 1923 was the heaviest in the history of the South African Railways, being 18,441,135 tons, an increase, compared with the year 1922, of 3,632,463 tons, or an increase of 25 per cent., and an increase on the previous highest figure, namely, that for 1920, of 2,276,435 tons, or 14 per cent. Goods revenue has exceeded the estimate by approximately £1,120,000, while coal shows an increase of £425,000. On the other hand, passengers and live stock earnings show decreases on the original estimates of approximately £51,000 and £45,000 respectively, the fluctuations under the other heads being comparatively small. When it is remembered that quite a number of reductions were made in rates and fares during 1923, to which I shall refer later on, hon. members will, I think, agree that from a revenue point of view the position during 1923-’24 has been highly satisfactory. The gross tonnage of goods traffic conveyed for the public during the year 1923 was 9,211,855 tons, which, compared with the 1922 figure, shows an increase of 1,864,599 tons, equal to am increase of 25.38 per cent. This constituted a record and was in excess of the 1920 figure, which was the previous highest tonnage, by no less than 1,780,430 tons, equal to an increase of 23.96 per cent. With one or two exceptions there were increases under all groups, the only exception of any importance being that of wattle bark, the tonnage of which fell off to the extent of approximately 73,000 tons. The principal increases were:

A pleasing feature of these figures is the fact that the improvement was due in a large measure to the large increases in the tonnages of South African commodities. As a case in point, the quantities of maize and maize products railed to the Union ports increased from 3,110,960 bags in 1922 to 6,227,842 bags in 1923, an increase of 3,116,882 bags, equal to 100.19 per cent. The transportation of this traffic to the ports was carried out smoothly and expeditiously, notwithstanding that the daily loadings exceeded all anticipations. During the period of intensive maize loading from July to September the total reached no less than 100,000 bags per day. As regards coal traffic, I am pleased to be able to say that the tonnage of this traffic also rose to a total in excess of any previous year’s figure—another record. The tonnage of coal conveyed for the public was 9,229,280 tons, or 1,767,864 tons more than the tonnage for 1922— equal to an increase of 19 per cent. Of the increase of 1,767,864 tons, 988,306 tons were for local consumption, while shipment coal increased by 779,558 tons. The shipment trade, particularly through Durban, was highly satisfactory, while it would appear that much of the Delagoa Bay trade, which was lost to the port as a result of the industrial disturbances in 1922, is being gradually recovered. The tonnage of coal conveyed by rail in August, 1923, was 1,068,268 tons, which constitutes a record for any one month. In the case of the passenger traffic, the total number of passenger journeys during the year 1923 was 64,442,041, which, compared with 1922, shows an increase of 3,877,984 journeys, equal to 6½ per cent. Passenger traffic throughout the year was fairly well sustained, the main feature being the very heavy bookings during the general excursion periods in June, July and December. As hon. members are aware, I have consistently advocated the reduction of rates and fares— with due regard to financial conditions—in cases where it has been clearly proved that such a course is necessary in order to prevent the loss of business or to stimulate the trade of the country. High rates undoubtedly restrict production, and, in a country such as South Africa where, generally speaking, traffic is conveyed long distances, the cost of transportation is a matter of vital importance to all sections of the community. From a purely Railway point of view, it is better to convey a large tonnage of traffic at low tariffs, than to deal with a small volume of business at high rates, as the former results in the development of the country and an increase in the spending power of the people which, in turn, benefits the Railways in different ways. In pursuance of this policy, I think the House will be pleased to learn that considerable reductions were made in rates and fares during the past financial year. These reductions in rates and fares, together with certain minor alterations which were made, involved a total estimated surrender of revenue of approximately £280,000 per annum. Regarding the subsidiary services (i.e., catering, bookstalls, grain elevators, road motor services, etc.) it is anticipated that the actual revenue from these services will be less than the original estimate to the extent of £122,238. Grain elevators show a reduction of £66,300 due to the elevators not being in readiness to handle a portion of last season’s crop as was originally anticipated. Compared with the original estimate, there has been an increase in the revenue received from interest on investments and to the extent of £95,699. This has been attained mainly on account of the amount of monies belonging to the various pension and other funds being larger than was anticipated, resulting in an increase in the interest received from the investment of these monies with the Public Debt Commissioners. Turning now to the harbour revenue. In view of the increased tonnages of traffic conveyed to the ports for export and of the goods imported from overseas to which I have already referred, it naturally follows that there should be a corresponding increase in the Harbour revenue. This has been realized and it is anticipated that the actual revenue will exceed the amounts originally estimated, under practically all the heads, the total increase being estimated at £202,591. The dues on goods and livestock, which are levied partly on an ad valorem basis and partly on a tonnage basis, are expected to show an increase of £129,920, while an excess of £36,302 is anticipated in respect of dues on ships and £24,230 in respect of the coaling apparatus at Durban. The tonnage of goods landed, shipped and transhipped at the principle Harbours of the Union during the year 1923 was 6,626,116 tons, or an increase, compared with the year 1922, of 1,419,867 tons, equal to 27.27 per cent. As regards the revenue from steamships, which consists principally of freight on sleepers transported from Western Australia for the requirements of the Administration and also on coal conveyed from South Africa to eastern ports, the actual revenue is anticipated to be £38,394 less than that originally estimated, due to the reduction in the rates of shipping freight. In addition to the cargoes mentioned, two of the vessels carried full cargoes to European ports in July last which consisted of 130.000 bags of maize. And now sir, I come to the expenditure for the year that has just closed (1923-’24). Notwithstanding the very large increase in the traffic dealt with, particulars of which I have just given to the House, it is gratifying to find that, as already stated, the actual expenditure is expected to be £300.959 less than the amount originally estimated, this amount being made up of :—

Hon. members will, I think, agree that this is very satisfactory, more particularly as the saving has been effected without having to resort to any general scheme of retrenchment of the staff. I need scarcely say, that it has only been possible to keep the actual expenditure of the past year within the Parliamentary Appropriation, by the exercise of constant and close watch on all items of expenditure. The officers of the Administration have left no stone unturned to reduce the cost of transportation without restricting the facilities to the public, and I am sure the House will appreciate the efforts which they have so successfully made in the direction of effecting operating economies. As regards railways expenditure, the savings under main services are estimated to amount to £45,177. But for an excess of £105,938 on the provision for depreciation, due to the increase in revenue on which the contribution for depreciation is based at the rate of 7 per cent., the saving under main services would have totalled £151,115. The only two heads under railways (main services) which show increases are “running expenses” (£260,313) and “cartage services” (£10,860). In the case of the running expenses the increase is due entirely to the additional mileage which has been necessitated by the exceptionally heavy traffic dealt with, the additional engine mileage run during the ten months ended January last being 6,549,603 miles more than the estimated mileage. The increase m the cartage expenditure is accounted for by the additional tonnage of traffic carted to and from stations. A considerable increase in the tonnage of traffic inevitably results in increased expenditure under these heads. In the case of the subsidiary services (railways), the saving is estimated to be £108,041. Catering expenditure will be approximately £37,000 under the estimated figure, the decrease being mainly due to less expenditure being incurred in connection with the stores which have been provided to meet the requirements of the staff employed on lines under construction. The expenditure on grain elevators will be approximately £68,000 less than that originally estimated on account of the delay in completing certain elevators, with the result that they have not been employed in handling a portion of last season’s maize crop, as was anticipated when the original estimates were framed. The expenditure on net revenue account, namely, “interest on capital” and “miscellaneous expenses” is expected to be approximately £60,000 under the estimate. Interest or capital will show a saving in the neighbourhood of £102,000. owing to the expenditure out of loan funds being less than was anticipated, and to a reduction in the rate of interest on these monies from 5.907 per cent. to 4.538 per cent., with effect from 1st April, 1922. On the other hand, miscellaneous expenditure is expected to exceed the original estimate by £41,915, the principal increases being (a) the cost of living allowance to staff stationed at Durban (£13,233), proportion of High Commissioner’s office expenses in excess of 1 per cent. on the value of material shipped (£5,380), and additional expenditure in respect of the original cost of assets withdrawn from service and written out of capital account (£20,976). With regard to harbour expenditure, the saving, as already mentioned, is estimated to be £57,559. This is very largely due to reduced payments in respect of interest on capital (£47,877) on account of the issues from loan funds being less than was expected and to a reduction in the rate of interest on loan issues with effect from 1st April, 1922, the adjusting entry for the overpayment in 1922-’23 having been made in the 1923-’24 accounts. The expenditure on the maintenance and upkeep of the jetties and wharves and other harbour works shows a saving of £22,727. On the other hand, there is an excess under miscellaneous expenses of £7,622, which is partly due to the payment of the cost of living allowance to the staff stationed at Durban. Concerning the steamships expenditure, which is anticipated to be £30,068 under the original estimate, the saving is principally due to reductions in the prices and quantities of stores consumed. The figures relating to the working of the railways and harbours in South-West Africa are included in those I have quoted, in terms of Act No. 20 of 1922, which provides for these railways and harbours forming an integral part of the Union railways. Statistics of the revenue and expenditure of the railways and harbours in the mandated territory are, however, kept for record purposes. For the nine months ended 31st December last the loss on working was £45,875. The transfer of the railways and harbours in the Protectorate, in terms of Act 20 of 1922, has been recorded in the capital account of the Administration at a valuation of £2,881,327 16s. 6d., which has been certified as correct by the Controller and Auditor-General. The entire equipment of the railways in rolling stock at the 31st December, 1923, was—

The new stock brought into service during 1923 was—

while the stock scrapped or sold was—

Improvements were effected during the year by converting one class into another and by fitting stock with additional conveniences and more up-to-date appliances. The capital expenditure in equipping the railways with rolling stock at the 31st December, 1923, was £18,496,168, or an increase during the year of £149,748. In addition to the capital expenditure a sum of £376,566 out of renewals fund was spent on rolling stock during 1923 to make good depreciation on stock at present in service. The gross expenditure on rolling stock during the year 1923 was, therefore, £526,314, and the total original cost of engines and rolling stock in service at the 31st December, 1923, was £30,407,008. Five road motor services are established in the Union, covering a total mileage of 133 miles, viz.—

The Gordons Bay—Strand service was discontinued at the end of April, 1923. For the year ended 31st December, 1923, the services were worked at a profit of £1,735, the results of working being as follows—

Motor services have undoubtedly benefited the districts served, but the working of these services under present-day conditions is very difficult and costly owing to the absence of suitable roads for mechanical transport. Notwithstanding that representations have been made to the responsible authorities in regard to the unsatisfactory state of roads, the problem is still as acute as ever; as a matter of fact, the condition of some roads is actually becoming worse. This means of transport hangs solely on the provision of good roads, and while the policy of the Administration is to introduce services wherever the traffic justifies this course, it is unreasonable to expect the Administration to do so in the absence of good roads. The total number of staff employed on railways and harbours, open lines and construction, including South-West Africa, as at the 31st December, 1923, was 80,088. In addition to these 1,759 convicts were employed. These figures do not include 1,137 white labourers employed on relief works. The following details show the distribution of the staff on that date—

31st December, 1923.

Summary.

31st December, 1922.

Summary.

The total capital expenditure on open lines (railways) including £3,044,091 in respect of assets acquired and reconstruction and new works in South-West Africa and also the loss in working the railways in that territory was £111,310,372, being an increase of £6,882,212, as compared with the total capital expenditure at the end of 1922 of £104,428,160. The total capital expenditure on harbours and lighthouses including £12,206 in respect of loss in working Luderitz harbour and Dias Point lighthouse in South-West Africa was £12,414,953, being an increase of £752,270, as compared with the total capital expenditure at the end of 1922 of £11,662,683. The combined railways and harbours capital expenditure at the 31st December, 1923, was therefore £123,725,325. These figures include expenditure out of revenue on capital account amounting to over £18,000,000 in addition to the expenditure out of loan funds. The estimated expenditure for 1924-’25. The mileage in the Union and in South-West Africa of open lines of railway, owned by the Government or privately owned, in respect of each province, and the number of miles of line to each 100 square miles of territory, and to the white, coloured and total population are—

The estimated mileage of new lines under construction to he opened for traffic during 1924-’25 is 423 miles.

The estimated expenditure for 1924-’25 is £23,769,496. The revised estimated expenditure for 1923-’24 is £23,066,517, so that an increase is contemplated of £702,979, which is sub-divided as follows—

At first sight it may appear that the Estimates for 1924-’25 have been framed on an unduly generous scale but I may at once say that this is not the case. The estimated expenditure has been based on the actual expenditure of the past year, to which has been added the estimated cost of working the new lines to be opened during 1924-’25, the provision for new services, and other additional unavoidable expenditure, which I shall refer to later. I will now analyse briefly the railway estimates of expenditure which account for no less than £680,763 of the total increase of £702,979. In the first place, provision has been made for increments to the salaried and daily paid staff in accordance with the new scales of pay, the amount provided in this connection being £206,000. Another very large item is the additional amount of £233,000 in respect of grain elevators, provision having been made to meet the cost of purchasing a large quantity of grain bags and also operating the terminal elevator at Cape Town and 34 country elevators, for nine months of the year. Then the contribution for depreciation of railway assets, which has again been calculated on the basis of 7 per cent. of the estimated railway revenue from main services, shows an increase of £201,000, while the amount to be paid in respect of interest on capital is estimated to exceed the payment made for the past year by £191,076. These items alone more than account for the total increase in the estimated expenditure, and but for the success that has attended the efforts of the responsible officers in effecting savings in working costs, reference to which has already been made, there would have been a much larger increase in the estimated expenditure for 1924-’25. In order that hon. members may appreciate to what extent the estimated expenditure for 1924-’25 varies with the revised Estimates for 1923-’24, I think I cannot do better than detail the main items making up the net increase of £680,763, which are as follows—

From this amount falls to be deducted the following decreases—

Concerning the provision for depreciation or renewals, it will be remembered that last session I stated that I considered the provision which had been made by the application of the rate which had been in operation since 1917, namely 2.86 per cent. of the capital cost of the wasting assets, erred on the side of liberality, and that, after considering the matter carefully I decided to adopt the basis employed on the Argentine railways for a number of years, namely, to calculate the contribution for depreciation at the rate of 7 per cent. of the estimated revenue from railways (main services). I intimated also that this basis was in the nature of a trial, and that the effect of it would be closely watched. Further, that the new basis has the merit of making the contributions fluctuate according to the rise or fall of the revenue. Well, sir, this matter has formed the subject of further consideration, and as a result of the experience of the past year I see no reason for departing from the new basis, at any rate for the present. The new method has not been sufficiently long in operation to justify a definite opinion as to its soundness or otherwise, and that being the case, I propose to continue to employ the 7 per cent. rate until circumstances and the results secured point to a change being necessary I feel sure the House will be interested to learn how the fund now stands, and what the probable position will be at the end of the year 1924-’25. I have therefore to state that the credit balance at the 31st March, 1923, was £2,038,683, contributions to the fund during 1923-’24 were £1,564,058, making a total of £3,602,741. Against this the estimated expenditure during 1923-’24 will be £1,308,735, thus giving a balance at the end of March, 1924, of £2,294,006, or, say roughly, £2,300,000. During 1924-’25 the approximate contributions to the fund will amount to £1,700,000, thus giving a total amount available in the fund during 1924-’25 of £3,994,006. Against this sum the estimated commitments at the 31st March, 1924, total £1,948,495, so that even if all the commitments require to be met during 1924-25 there will still be a sum available in the fund amounting to £2,045,511. All of the commitments, however, will not require to be met during 1924-’25 as many of them will not be paid until later years, and from this hon. members will appreciate that the renewals fund is in quite a satisfactory position. It is estimated that the position of the betterment fund at the 31st March, 1924, will be as follows—

The contemplated contribution from revenue for the year l924-’25 is £250,000, so that during 1924-’25 there will be available to meet proposals for works involving expenditure out of betterment, £499,125. The commitments against the fund at 31st March, 1924, are estimated to amount to £294,863, so that the net balance available for subsequent expenditure will be £204,263. This fund is now called upon to bear the cost of certain classes of work which have in the past been charged to working votes. The subject is a somewhat complicated one, and I do not propose to burden the House with details in connection with it at this stage. With regard to the provision for writing down the value of stores stock, I may remind the House that two previous contributions have been made for the purpose stated, the first amounting to £500,000 being made in 1922-’23, and the second to £250,000 in 1923-’24. The provision made in the 1924-’25 Estimates is considered sufficient to write down the value of the various items of stock to the approximate current market prices, although, of course, the position changes from time to time, in consequence of the fluctuation in prices. The writing down of stores stock valuations has been of undoubted advantage to the Administration, in that it has prevented the inflation of the working accounts by including charges for stores at prices in keeping with current market rates, and has also reduced the cost of capital works, including new lines, on the cost of which interest has to be paid in perpetuity. Regarding the additional provision of £45,000 for the working of new lines to be opened during 1924-’25, the sections to be opened for public traffic and the probable dates of opening are—

The total mileage of the lines to be opened in 1924-’25 is 423 miles. The estimated expenditure on harbours for 1924-’25 is £1,064,456, which is £14,766 more than the actual expenditure for 1923-’24. This increase is entirely due to additional interest on expenditure out of loan funds, the increase in this provision being £28,096. The fluctuations under the other heads of expenditure are so small as to call for no special comment. As regards steamships, it is estimated that the expenditure for 1924-’25 will amount to £158,310 as against an actual expenditure for 1923-’24 of £150,860 or an increase of £7,450 only. This increase is mainly due to provision for additional repairs of a light nature. I will now deal with the estimates of revenue for 1924-’25, and in this respect I may state in a few words that the gross revenue from railways, harbours and steamships is estimated to be £24,051,852, made un of—

It will be remembered for the year that has just closed (1923-’24), the revenue is estimated at £24,454,189. From that it will be seen that the revenue for 1924-’25 is anticipated to be less than that of 1923-’24 by £402,337, this amount being made up of—

Particulars of the estimated revenue for 1924-’25 and of the revised estimated revenue for 1923-’24, under the various heads, will be found in the “Green Book” which will be distributed to hon. members this afternoon. Taking railways first, the total estimated revenue from the various services for the year 1924-’25 is £22,571,330, this amount being subdivided as follows—

In the case of the main services, it is anticipated that, compared with 1923-’24, the revenue to be received during 1924-’25 will show a reduction of £698,896, this amount being made up as follows—

The reasons for estimating a falling off in the revenue, to the extent of £698,896 per annum, are two-fold. The first is the reductions in rates and fares, which as I have already intimated to the House, are being brought into operation forthwith. These will involve a surrender of revenue of approximately £500,000 per annum. The second is the unlikelihood, owing to the drought, of traffic being again experienced equal in tonnage to the record tonnage of 1923-’24. On the other hand an increased revenue of £107,000 is expected in respect of new lines to be opened during the year. The average weekly revenue received from railways (main services), from the 1st April, 1923, to the 22nd March, 1924, that is, for the whole of the year with the exception of the last nine days, was £412,828 per week, whereas the revenue for 1924-’25 has been estimated at £402,600 per week. After allowing for the reduction of rates and fares to be brought into operation forthwith it may be of interest to hon. members to know that the additional revenue obtained by reason of the rates and fares being higher than pre-war rates and fares will be as follows—

With regard to the subsidiary services (railways), the total revenue for the year is estimated at £1,099,850, the total in respect of each service being—

Compared with the revised estimated revenue for 1923-’24, it shows an advance of £296,850—

seconded.

I have on the Order Paper for this afternoon a motion for a Select Committee to be appointed, which obviously it will be absurd to move in the circumstances in which we find ourselves, but I think that this would be a suitable opportunity just to ask the hon. the Minister of Railways to do what seems to us a piece of common justice. The facts are these. It will be within the recollection of the House that in Committee on the Part Appropriation, Bill of the Railways last year, the hon. the Minister of Railways made certain quite clear and serious allegations.

It seems that the hon. member is anticipating the next motion.

Yes, but in the circumstances, as that motion cannot come forward, I think you will permit me to take this opportunity.

But there is no evidence before the Chair that the motion cannot come forward, and in the circumstance I cannot allow this discussion.

Then I shall speak on the next motion.

Motion put and agreed to.

Bill brought up and read a first time; second reading tomorrow.

moved—

seconded.

I would ask the right hon. the Prime Minister in common decency, in view of the ruling which Mr. Deputy-Speaker has just given, which closes my mouth on a matter which does not concern members of this House, but many people outside this House, to allow me to avail myself of this opportunity to try and get redress in regard to the matter which has been raised. I have had to forego my rights, or the right which I should have as the mover of this motion, to bring up this question, and I hope that he will withdraw his motion for the adjournment so as to allow this motion to be discussed.

I would suggest to the hon. member that the proper course would be for him to withdraw his motion, which is a blocking motion. The hon. member realizes that it is no use putting this motion, which is for the appointment of a Select Committee, which will never sit. He is therefore blocked from raising his own motion. My suggestion out of the difficulty is that the hon. member should withdraw his motion. Leave can easily be given for that, and then on the second reading of this Bill he can raise this point. He will understand that he cannot raise it just now, because so long as his motion is on the paper this matter cannot be discussed.

I am afraid that I cannot agree to this suggestion. The circumstances are these: That motion is not a blocking motion. If you, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, in your discretion, knowing perfectly well that it will not come on, will permit the discussion to take place, you will be permitted to do so under the rules of the House. As I am situated to-day, I may be equally blocked to-morrow as I was just now, because when I ask for the withdrawal of this motion to be allowed, any hon. member of this House can object. I therefore hope that you will grant me latitude in allowing me to discuss this matter now. I wish to call the attention of the House and of the country to the action which the right hon. the Prime Minister has taken, in order to prevent me in my representative capacity from trying to make one last appeal before this Parliament closes to the hon. the Minister of Railways to take that course which our long experience of him entitles us to expect from him.

I suggested a course out of the difficulty.

There is no difficulty, and I never was in any difficulty. The only difficulty I see is that Mr. Deputy-Speaker ruled that owing to the existence of that formal motion, which is obviously merely formal, and which we may never reach, I cannot speak. Any hon. member may object to have it withdrawn, and there the motion will stand. The Government business, is done for the day, and there is nothing to prevent the right hon. the Prime Minister from withdrawing his motion for the adjournment.

I might point out to the hon. member that if an hon. member wishes to withdraw his motion, he is entitled to do so, and no one can prevent him. It is entirely within the power of the hon. member to do so.

A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, with such a very astute tactician as the right hon. the Prime Minister.

This is most unfair.

I am entitled to discuss matters on which we want some information. I shall go on until I am ruled out of order. I want the House and the country to realize that the privileges of this House are very precious to us, but the privileges of this House should not be allowed to enable us to persecute any person outside this House by making serious and damaging charges against him. On the second reading of this Bill it will be competent for me to raise the question. We know, and I am still resisting the adjournment of the House, we know perfectly well that in such a debate as that, this matter may form a mere item. We know also that this House is desirous of getting through the business as soon as possible, the ordinary Government business, in order to enable Parliament to be prorogued. Under these circumstances the right hon. the Prime Minister’s attempt to smother this motion here, will bear only one interpretation. Members’ convenience is not studied. This is private members’ day, and the Government have taken an unprecendented course. They have taken a course unprecedented as far as I know, certainly, since Union, in the proceedings of this House. The rules of the House give precedence even on private members’ day to move the introduction of a Bill. Customarily and ordinarily these Bills are dealt with formally, and do not take up the time of the House, and for the right hon. the Prime Minister to block a matter of this sort is unworthy of the right hon. the Prime Minister, and I am sure it is unworthy of the hon. the Minister of Railways to sit there and not join in the protest against this adjournment, and the discussion being blocked. There is no time limit this afternoon. If the House desires to sit and discuss this matter, it is a matter for the House, and I object to the House adjourning just to prevent a discussion on this matter, and so blocking a private member in a motion which he wishes to move. I have material here showing the steps that have been taken by this person. Every possible step has been taken, by denial in the public press, by letter to the right hon. the Prime Minister, by letter to the hon. the Minister of Railways, for some opportunity to clear his character. We want to use the privileges of this House with a due sense of responsibility, and I shall divide the House against the adjournment, and against the manifest injustice which, in my opinion, is being done in preventing us from getting the hon. the Minister of Railways to give that which he ought to give—a frank, clear, statement, that he was in the wrong. I call upon any hon. member who has got any sense of fair play to have this matter discussed before Parliament prorogues, and get the hon. the Minister of Railways to substantiate a serious charge against the person outside this House, or for him to withdraw the same.

Ek hoop die edelagbare die Eerste Minister sal hier geleentheid gee om my formele onbestrede mosie te stel vóór die Huis verdaag.

Die voorstel is om die Huis te verdaag.

Ja juis, maar ek vra die edelagbare die Eerste Minister ’n bietjie te wag met die verdaging tot tyd en wyle die formele mosie gestel is.

Dis nie my plan om op die meriete van die mosie van die edele lid vir Stamford Hill (de hr. Creswell) in te gaan nie, maar ek wil ook graag ’n beroep doen op die edelagbare die Eerste Minister om die Huis geleëntheid te gee om die mosie van die edele lid volledig te bespreek vanmiddag. Dis maar kwart voor vyf en die Huis het nog een uur en een kwartier. Dus hoop ek dat die edelagbare die Eerste Minister en die edelagbare die Minister van Spoorwee verstaan, dat wat ook al gedink mag word van die metodes van die persoon in kwessie, dat daar ’n ernstige beskuldiging teen die persoon gemaak is en dat dit nie meer as reg is van die kant van die Huis en edele lede nie om die persoon geleëntheid te gee om sy saak te stel by wyse van mosie. Dis waar, dat onder die besondere omstandighede beteken dit nie veel in die praktyk nie, want al word ’n Selekt Komitee aangestel so kan dit tog nie prakties uitgevoer word nie, maar met ’n bietjie bespreking sal die edelagbare die Minister geleentheid kry om ’n verklaring te maak, wat nie meer dan billik is teenoor die persoon nie. Elkeen kan die posiesie verstaan dat wat die man ook al gedoen mag het, wanneer ’n beskuldiging van so’n ernstige aard gemaak word, dat dit nie meer dan reg is, dat die Huis die man die geleëntheid moet gee om sy saak te stel. Dis waar die edelagbare die Minister sê dat die saak more by die Addisionele Begroting ter sprake gebring kan word, maar ons voel dat ons hier graag die saak in konkrete vorm voor die Huis wil bring, om die edelagbare die Minister geleëntheid te gee om die saak te behandel. Ek hoop dat die edelagbare die Eerste Minister die saak nog eens sal oorweeg en die edele lid vir Stamford Hill (de hr. Creswell) geleëntheid sal gee om sy mosie voor te stel.