from mine workers praying that the Miners’ Phthisis Bill be so amended as to secure to sufferers from phthisis compensation in conformity with the principles of workmen’s compensation.

Imperial Bluebook on treatment of international questions by Parliaments in European countries, the United States, and Japan.

Return showing names of the persons who tendered for the Standerton Creamery and prices tendered.

May the return be read by the Clerk?

It is a very unusual course. The return is on the table, and it is open to the hon. member to read.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) What is the maximum daily quantity of coal that can, under present conditions, be carried between the Natal coalfields and Durban; and (2) what increased quantity of coal will the railway be capable of carrying between these points after completion of the improvements now in hand and those provided for in the current year’s Budget?

replied: (1) 10,350 tons between Natal, coalfields and Cato Ridge (45 miles from Durban) and 9,030 tons Cato Ridge to Durban, after making due allowance for other traffic and tare of vehicles employed. (2) Increased quantity, say, 8,150 tons daily between coalfields and Pietermaritzburg up to which point improvements are in hand or provided for in the current year’s estimates.

To ask the Minister of Justice whether he will lay upon the table of the House a return showing for the months of January, February, and March, 1912, respectively, (1) the number of prosecutions which have taken place in the district of Humansdorp for a contravention of the Location Acts (Cape) in failing to take out licences; and (2) the number of convictions of farmers?

replied that in January, February, and March last 18, 12, and 18 prosecutions respectively had taken place in Humansdorp for breaches of the Location Acts, and that during those months the number of farmers convicted were 12, 9, and 14 respectively.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to the number of criminal assaults on women and children, especially what is known as the “Black Peril,” and whether these crimes are on the increase or otherwise: (2) whether he has observed from the Press the public meetings in connection therewith and the feeling of unrest which undoubtedly exists and what steps he is taking to allay public feeling; (3) whether he can lay upon the table of the House any statistics showing (a) the number of cases reported since 1st April, 1911, (b) how many of these remain undetected, and (c) the number of executions since the date of Union for the crime of rape; and (4) whether he does not think the time has arrived when the Government should take into serious consideration whether the death penalty is a sufficient deterrent, or that some other means of physical punishment should be adopted, and, if so, whether the Government will take steps to have a full investigation and report either by a Commission or Select Committee of this House?

replied: My attention has been drawn to the criminal assaults by coloured men on white women recently reported in the Press. All the steps which under the special circumstances can be taken I am taking, in the direction of providing adequate means for the detecting and bringing of the criminals to justice. The number of cases reported throughout the whole Union since the 1st April, 1911, up to and including the 31st March, 1912, is 85 for the year. Of these 71 were brought to justice and 14 remain undetected. The total number dealt with by the Courts in 1910 was, as far as I can discover, 69. Only in two cases have the judges passed the death sentence for rape, and have the criminals been executed. The matter of the adequacy or inadequacy of the penalty attaching to the crime and to attempts to commit the crime is having my serious attention, and I am taking steps to obtain the advice of those who are the best qualified to judge as to best means of combating the evil.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether it is with his knowledge that houses of the same size and value, belonging to the Railway Department and situated along the railway, are let to private parties at £2 per month and to railway employees at £3 13s.per month: and, if so, why is this difference made?

No such cases are known of by the Administration, so that the second part of this question falls to the ground.

asked the Prime Minister whether it has been brought to this notice that great damage has been done by the recent floods to the property of farmers along the Lourie River, Klein River, Honey Kloof, Kleinfontein, Geelhoutboom, and other localities in the neighbourhood of Hankey; and, if so, whether he will instruct the Magistrate at Humansdorp to investigate the extent of the losses sustained with the view of granting assistance to the sufferers?

replied: The matter has not been brought to my notice, and I cannot give the hon. member any information on the subject of assistance to those who sustained damage through the floods.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that criminal assaults frequently take place after dark in the districts between Cleveland and Germiston; (2) what is the number of white police in these districts; and (3) what steps he proposes to take to ensure greater security to the inhabitants of these districts

replied: (1) I am not aware that criminal assaults frequently take place after dark between Cleveland and Germiston. (2) Ninety-four European non-commissioned officers and men. (3) I am informed that the present arrangements are sufficient to adequately patrol the districts referred to, and that no complaints have been made by the inhabitants on that score.

asked the Prime Minister: (1) Whether he expressed his opinion to the London “Daily Chronicle” on the question of Home Rule for Ireland; (2) if so, had he been furnished with an advance copy of the Home Rule Bill; and (3) if he did express an opinion to the English Press on this question, is it to be understood that he and his Government favour similar attempts to influence public opinion by English statesmen in the domestic and native policies of South Africa?

replied: (1) My reply to this is in the affirmative; (2) to this in the negative; (3) this does not require an answer.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Under what Act of Parliament was the loan of £2,000 made by the Administration to one of its engineers; and (2) if not made by virtue of any Act of Parliament, then by what authority was the loan made and the rate of interest thereon fixed?

replied that he was getting some further information on the matter and, would reply to the question later.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) What doctors are employed as railway doctors; (2) what distances they have to travel; and (3) which are allowed houses or house rent allowance?

laid a return upon the table.

asked the Minister of Agriculture what steps the Government intend to take to give effect to a promise made by the Forest Department to the Cape Flats Farmers’ Association to prevent the encroachment of drift sands on Crown lands adjoining farms on the Cape Flats?

The Forest Department proposes, during the 1912 planting season, now commencing, to plant belts of marram grass for the purpose of preventing the encroachment of drift sands from forest reserve areas on to private properties on the cape Flats where such danger exists.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that recently when certain persons, accused of the theft of cattle in the district of Willowmore, were tried, the Magistrate did not carry out the provisions of sections two and four of Act No. 7 of 1905 (Cape), and section one of Act No. 3 of 1907 (Cape); and (2) seeing there is good reason to fear that those provisions, more particularly with regard to the infliction of an additional penalty where stock has either diminished in value or has been lost, are not enforced by the Magistrates, whether he is prepared, after proper inquiry, to draw the attention of Magistrates to the desirability of carrying out the said provisions in every instance?

replied: I have been informed of the facts of the case referred to by the honourable member. As, however, the question involves the judicial discretion of the Magistrate, and as it is quite possible that it may be referred to a Supreme Court for decision, I regret that I do not see my way to giving a direction of the nature desired.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours how the repairs of railway rolling stock were distributed between the chief Cape workshops before Union and how it is distributed now, and if any change has been made, why it was made, and whether It is proving advantageous?

replied: Prior to Union as follows: Salt River.—1st and 2nd class saloons and dining saloons and engines running on Western system. Uitenhage.—1st and 2nd class composite saloons and engines running on Midland system. East London.—3rd class saloons and engines running on Eastern system. Suburban stock and wagons were labelled for repairs to nearest workshop. Subsequent to Union as follows: The same as before, except that whereas prior to Union each Administration repaired its own stock, faulty vehicles found on other lines being returned for that purpose, according to present practice, if a cape vehicle were detached, say, at Bloemfontein, it would be repaired there instead of being returned to Cape shops. The converse applies in case of the late C.S.A.R. vehicles detached at Cape Town.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours what action the Government has taken, or propose to take, in consequence of the resolution of the House, taken on March 14th, 1911, that the papers laid upon the table of the House on the 2nd and 3rd of February, 1911, referring to the curtailing of the legal rights of railway men to be placed on the fixed establishment, be referred to the Government for consideration and report, and when the report referred to may be expected?

replied: A report will be submitted in the course of a few days for the purpose of being laid upon the table of the House of Assembly in connection with the resolution adopted by the House on 14th March, 1911, on the subject of the admission of daily-paid railway employees to fixed establishment of Cape Province.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether there is any objection to railway employees becoming members of political organisations?

replied that he was looking into the matter, which was rather an important one.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether his attention has been called to the alleged gross cruelty to a truck load of oxen conveyed by rail in Natal from Estcourt to Verulam on or about the 20th inst., where they arrived in a shocking state, nine having died out of twelve by the way due to suffocation; (2) whether he will have the matter thoroughly investigated and the guilty parties arrested and severely punished; and (3) whether he will cause instructions to be given that all necessary precautions and care be taken in the conveyance of dumb animals by rail, so that they shall not be subjected to such cruelty and torture?

replied: (1) Yes; seven out of twelve animals were dead on arrival at Durban, two more were dead on arrival at Verulam, and two more died during the night, leaving one out of twelve. The consignment consisted of twelve small yearlings loaded by the owner under supervision of the temperaturing officer for the district, who, with the stationmaster, were satisfied there was plenty of room in the truck. The truck measured 19 ft. 6 in length, 7 ft. 2 in width, and 5 ft. 7 in depth. The animals were accompanied by a native attendant, and were fed and watered en route. They left Estcourt at 1.29 p.m. on the 19th inst. and arrived at Verulam at 6.36 p.m. on the following night, but owing to the absence of the stock inspector the animals could not be released until his arrival about 3½ Hours later. (2) The matter has already been investigated, but so far as the Administration has been able to trace, no blame can be attached to the railway staff. Further investigations are proceeding. (3) Instructions to this effect are already in force, and the staff are constantly impressed with the necessity of expediting the conveyance of live-stock, and seeing that they are properly attended to on the journey.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that a circular was issued by the Director of Prisons on the 4th instant, whereby all gaolers are instructed to insist upon European prisoners giving information as to whether they took part in the late war; and (2) whether he is responsible for the issue of same, and whether he approves of the principle thereof?

replied: I am not aware of a circular issued by the Director of Prisons on the 4th instant of the nature mentioned by the honourable member. Ever since the 1st of July, 1909, in connection with penological statistics, introduced in the Transvaal in accordance with the principles of modem penology collected from prisoners to determine the causes of crime along with other questions relating to parentage, sobriety, education, up-bringing, trade and occupation of the criminal, one of the questions required to be answered by criminals was if a soldier, sailor, or policeman, to state particularly whether he had taken part in the South African war. This requirement was extended to Union with my authority on the 1st July, 1910, and has since the beginning of this month been limited to Europeans by my instructions.

asked the Minister of Finance: (1) What was the total amount of bank note issues in the Union of South Africa on the 30th December last; (2) how much of such issue was guaranteed by the Government; and (3) whether it is intended to bring all bank note issues in the Union under a Government guarantee similar to that at present obtaining in the Cape Province; and, if not, what action, if any, is contemplated by the Government for the security of the public as regards a bank-note medium of exchange?

replied: The total amount of bank notes in circulation on the 30th December last was £2,377,745. Of this amount, £1,170,529 represented legal tender notes of the Cape Colony. (2) The Government does not guarantee any bank notes, but in respect of the legal tender notes of the Cape Colony, the Government hold negotiable securities, deposited by the banks, to an amount of not less than the amount of notes issued from time to time, and a certificate is endorsed on each note that it is secured by Cape Government securities deposited with the Treasury under Act 6 of 1891(3) At present, the enactments of the various Provinces dealing with banking business are in force, and until a consolidating Bill is brought forward, no change in the present arrangements is possible.

asked the Minister of Justice whether, in view of the public feeling and anxiety in Johannesburg against the contemplated removal of the Criminal Investigation Department from Johannesburg to Pretoria, the Government will reconsider their decision in regard to this matter and retain the head office of the C.I.D. at Johannesburg?

replied: As not a single detective directly engaged in the investigation of crime is being taken away from Johannesburg to Pretoria in connection with the transfer of what is simply the Central Union Criminal Investigation Department Administration, and as the Johannesburg detective staff will operate under a most capable and tried Detective Officer, Inspector Vachell, under the supervision of Deputy-Commissioner Douglas, and, as I stated in my answer to the honourable member on the 23rd instant, that the departmental activities in regard to criminal investigation on the Reef are left absolutely unimpaired by the transfer, I am not prepared at present to reconsider the decision in the matter, which is sound in principle.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether the Master of the dredger Nautilus, of Durban, was recently detached for certain duty at East London; (2) whether in consequence sundry acting appointments were made, viz.: The Master of the Laborus to be acting Master of the Nautilus, the Master of the Platibus to be acting Master of the Laborus, and the boatswain of the Nautilus to be acting Master of the Platibus; (3) whether it has not hitherto been the custom of the Service to grant the maximum salary of the acting appointment to those temporarily promoted in this manner; (4) whether in the present instance this salary has not been granted; and (5) if so, what is the reason for the decision of the Government to give no increase of pay to men who for the convenience of the Service are appointed to act in a more highly-paid capacity than that for which they are rated?

replied: (1) Yes. (2) Yes. (3) No. (4) No. (5) When a daily paid employee relieves an employee of higher grade he receives the minimum rate payable for the grade in which he is relieving, unless his wage amounts to more, in which case no extra allowance is made. So far as the salaried staff is concerned each case is dealt with on its merits, and it is only in exceptional instances where the officer is required to occupy a higher post for considerable time that consideration is given to the question of granting higher pay. In the case under review the acting appointments are only expected to last for about two months.

asked whether the replies could not also be given in Dutch, because those members who could not understand English had to wait until the following Thursday, at the earliest, before they could have an opportunity of seeing what the replies were.

thereupon repeated his answer in Dutch.

asked whether the Minister of Finance could not reply to the question he had asked last Tuesday, and to which he was to get a reply later.

regretted that he could not give the reply yet. It required some time.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether his attention has been drawn to the judgment in the case of Seluk v. Suskin and Salkow given in the Transvaal Division of the Supreme Court on the 15th April last, in which it was decided that according to section 5 of Act No. 26 of 1908, vindicatory actions against bona-fide possessors were prescribed after the lapse of fourteen days even if the movables had been stolen; (2) whether he is not of opinion that that is a serious defect in the law and entirely against public policy; and, if so (3), whether he will bring in a Bill this session to amend the said Act?

replied: My attention has been drawn to a newspaper report of the judgment of the majority of the Court in the Transvaal Provincial Division of the Supreme Court in the case of Seluk v. Suskin and Salkow in connection with the Transvaal Prescription Act. Until I have had an opportunity of perusing the judgment of the Honourable the Judge-President, I am not in a position to express an opinion, especially as there is a possibility of a matter of this nature going to the Appellate Division. In any case, it is impracticable to introduce a Bill to deal with a specific provision of this nature of one of the Provinces during the present session.

Schedules of pensions and gratuities awarded to members of the Cape Colonial Forces under Act No. 32 of 1892 (Cape).

moved: That the Government be requested to /take into consideration the advisability of appointing a Commission on Leprosy at an early date whose duties will embrace the present method of segregation. The hon. member, who was at the outset inaudible in the Press Gallery, was understood to say that there was no doubt that the administration of Robben Island was admittedly difficult, yet at the same time, he felt that it was the duty of every hon. member who had any information on the subject to place those facts before the House. What was the condition to-day as to segregation? If you had a man who was well off, many medical men would tell them that they would say that the best thing to do was to go out of the country and go to England be-cause if the man stayed, the result would be that he would be taken away from his home and banished to Robben Island, where the chances of a cure were very small indeed. Yet if a man were poor, and had no chance of getting out of the country, he was banished to that barren island. These people were taken from their businesses and their homes and sent to the Island, where they remained until they died. There they were practically imprisoned. There was no excuse for the shameful way in which they dealt with these people. He went on to point out that lepers belonging to the Free State and the Transvaal were segregated on the mainland. But the lepers of the Cape Province—with the exception of some coloured people—were sent to the Island. If the coloured people could be kept segregated and under supervision on the mainland, why could not the same be done with the Europeans. He was not prepared to say that there was no need for segregation, or that segregation was an improper course to follow, but what he did say was that it should be carried out as was the case in other countries. Proceeding, the speaker dealt at length with the findings of Commissions, and referred to the conclusions of Select Committees which had dealt with the subject in the past. He referred appreciatively the appointment of the Medical Board and declared that owing to the examinations that had taken place, every person sent to the Island as a leper was a leper. The Minister had given two promises in connection with the matter, but neither had been carried out and, therefore, the people of the Island were in a state of great uncertainty. If the Island was to be used in the future, then he said that double the sum they were spending at the present time should be expended. If it was intended to give up the Island, then he said that no large sums should be spent, but rather kept an hand for the settlement which would have to be organised on the mainland At any rate, he thought that something should be done. The people on the Island were in a state of uncertainty as to their future, and he felt sure that all unrest would be allayed if some definite statement were made. There was nothing being done to-day to give these people some prospect, some hope that something was being done to cure the disease. Theoretical experts were all very well but still he thought the Minister of the Interior must own that leprosy as it existed was endemic in certain countries, and unfortunately this was one of those countries, and there were men in this country such as Dr. Cox, of the Old Somerset Hospital, who could bring valuable knowledge and experience to bear on a subject of this kind from a practical standpoint. Whatever was done, he (Dr. Hewat) felt that a Commission should be appointed that would be absolutely independent, and that would not only give confidence to the lepers, but also to the general public. He purposely refrained from going into the condition of affairs at Robben Island as a leper settlement. But he felt that it was disgraceful the way in which the case of these people was being overlooked. The time had passed when those conditions should remain. Were they going to segregate these people on a land settlement, or were they hot? Were they going to remove them from that barren island and put them in comfortable conditions on the mainland? Let them settle that matter. Expense should be no obstacle in a question of this kind. They should not hesitate to make the lot of these people, who were segregated in this way for the benefit of the community, as comfortable and happy as possible. He wished it to be clearly understood that he was not against segregation, because he did not know sufficient to-day to guide him to be against it. For that reason, he had joined none of the societies against the segregation of lepers, such as they knew existed in the country. He was seeking for information, and he was asking the House to support him in seeking for it and if that independent, reliable Commission should say that, segregation was to exist under the conditions of to-day, he would say that he agreed, and that it must be carried out in its entirety. He hoped that before next year they would not only have the Commission, but also its report, and something to go upon in that House. (Hear, hear.)

who seconded the motion, said that this was one of the “hardy annuals” of the old Cape House. Briefly reviewing the history of the disease, he remarked that the idea that leprosy was an awful complaint must have got instilled into the human mind, and must remain there until they succeeded in eradicating it. It was possible to exterminate leprosy from a country, because they read that some three or four hundred years ago it was a very common disease in England, while, as far as he could read in medical literature, it was now absolutely unknown in England. The hon. member for Woodstock had reminded the House that the disease was not a, hereditary disease. If that were so—and he (Sir W. B. Berry) thought there was no doubt about it—then the whole ground for the segregation of the leper had been out away. When he was a young man, the great reason that was urged for the segregation of the leper was on account of the effects of free mixture between the lepers and the rest of the community. It was very open to doubt whether even in the most aggravated case any danger existed to the community. He thought the time had come when we should take a more rational view of this matter, and when we should not penalise a whole lot of unfortunate people by banishing them to a place like Robben Island. We ought not to treat the Cape Provincial lepers in a worse way than that in which the lepers of the other Provinces were treated, and we should not differentiate between the white leper and the coloured leper. As to the question of a Commission, he thought that they should have a Commission, because they were no longer members of a Provincial Parliament, but were members of a Union Parliament, and they should devise some means that could be brought into use throughout the whole Union for dealing with these cases. They also required a Commission, because it was necessary from time to time to enlarge the minds even of members on a question of this kind. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the Minister would take a broad view of this question, and so far oblige his hon. friend and oblige science and humanity by appointing this Commission, to see if anything further could be done which had not been done in the past, for the purpose of alleviating the condition of these unfortunate people. (Hear, hear.)

said that he wished to support most heartily his hon. friends in their plea for something to be done to ameliorate the condition of the lepers on Robben Island. While he approved of the appointment of a Commission, he would suggest that the scope of the Commission ought to be very much wider. The Minister of the Interior had already made two unsuccessful attempts to get a Public Health Bill through the House. He (Dr. Macaulay) thought it was desirable that he should appoint a Commission to inquire into the whole subject of public health and the relation of the Public Health Department to local authorities and Provincial Governments, and this question of the State’s duty to the leper should form part of the Commission’s investigations. He moved to omit all the words after “appointing a”, and to substitute “public health commission, the terms of reference to which shall include the question of the State treatment of leprosy.”

seconded the amendment.

said he had no objection to a Commission being appointed for scientific inquiry into the question of leprosy. But there was another matter which first demanded attention, and that was the removal of lepers from Robben Island to the mainland. That was demanded by humanity, and it was urgently demanded. After that had been done, then they could inquire into the scientific aspect of the question. He thought also it was rather expensive to keep the lepers on the island—much more so than it would be on the mainland. He heartily supported the motion.

reminded the House that the people on the island were segregated not because of their own fault, but for the sake of their fellow men. No more money should be spent on the island, as it was one of the most unhappy and miserable places one could think of. What was even worse than that was the fact, as he had been assured by capable doctors, that there were some people who were kept on the island who had no kind of contagious disease. Formerly a farm had been bought on the mainland at which to segregate lepers, but unfortunately the site had been badly chosen. He entirely agreed with the motion.

deplored the waste of time that took place every year in discussing leprosy. What did it all help if the Government would do nothing? If only the Government could be got to take some action, they could make an end of the matter. All the members were to blame for that condition of affairs, and their sympathy only amounted to lip sympathy.

asked what hon. members on his side could do but ask for a Commission to be appointed? It was no use blaming them.

said that he had not blamed hon. members personally or anyone. Al1 were guilty.

*Mr. M. ALEXANDER (Cape Town), Castle) said that he did not take it as a personal matter. The people who were blame were the Government, who were the only people who could do anything. All that hon. members could do was to express their opinion on the matter and try to get the Government to carry out the wishes of the House. Last session a motion for the appointment of a Commission had been agreed to, but the Government had not followed it up, and no Commission had been appointed. The hon. member quoted from the speech of the Minister of the Interior on that occasion; and said that they had all thought, from those expressions on the part of the Government, that something would have been done. He believed that the hon. member for Fauresmith (Mr. Wilcocks) also believed that something would be done. The Minister had then dealt with the medical aspect, but when he again spoke on the question on the Estimates, it was not the medical question, but the question of pounds, shillings, and pence. That was in April of last year. He thought they were justified in saying that the Government were bound to do something in that matter. Now that they had Union, they should do away with the idea that segregation on Robben Island was necessary, for the experiment of removing the Free State lepers to a station on the mainland had proved, he thought, an undoubted success, both from the point of view of the lepers themselves and from the point of view of the State. The same thing had not taken place, however, with regard to the lepers of the Cape Province. The objection to Robben Island, apart from the sentimental objections that the lepers were removed far away from their relatives, was that instead of curing the disease, it aggravated it, owing to the conditions prevailing on the island; the damp climate, the glare of the sand, and the water. Many suffered from pulmonary complaints because of their removal to that island. A strong case had been made for the removal of these people; but if an hon. member moved that these people should be removed, Mr. Speaker would rule that the motion was out of order, as it involved extra expenditure. The Government was the only body which could, therefore, move in the matter. If the argument of expense were the only one to be used, he did not think that was a fair one to use. It could not be more expensive to maintain the lepers on the mainland; and the cost of removal could not be too great. He hoped that the Minister would allow the motion to pass, and give an assurance that that Commission would be appointed at an early date.

deplored the condition of those on the island, and said it was necessary to do something to help them. Robben Island was more suitable for thieves and murderers. They had a suitable place in the Transvaal where the lepers were helped in every way, but on the island the poor people suffered more than was necessary. If need be, the Government should buy one of the best farms. They should try to imagine themselves in the position of those unfortunate people.

supported the motion, and said that when the hon. member for Woodstock (Dr. J. Hewat) began to speak the House had not, it seemed to him, given that attention to the matter which it deserved. He asked what right had they, as a Parliament, to banish these men to Robben Island without the fullest investigation being made as to whether they should be segregated there. What would have happened if they had been a State where they could not have segregated these lepers on an island, or outside their boundaries? He thought they had only to consider it in that light to see that it was not necessary to send these people to that island. Robben (Island was not the place for people from the mainland, and these people were banished amid surroundings that were perfectly horrible and in an unhealthy climate. The public should be shown that this enormous fear of leprosy was groundless, and that lepers could be segregated on the mainland, where all the pleasures of life would not be taken away. Public opinion should be educated on the matter. The want of success that attended the effort to remove the lepers to Vygeboom was the feeling of the people against it. At the same time there was a leper asylum at Emjanyana, where, unfortunately, owing to lack of control, the disease spread. The main point was to get rid of the terror of people that lepers could not safely be segregated on the mainland.

supported the motion, and said they would never hear the last of the matter until they listened to the complaints.

said he had visited the island, and thought it impossible to keep the people there. It was only suitable for criminals. The sufferers should be treated with compassion, and everything done to make their position more bearable. It was possible to do a good deal for them, and although a great deal would have to be spent at first, it would be cheaper in the long run to have them on the mainland. They could have one institution for all the Provinces.

in supporting the motion, said he would do so although he felt that to remove the lepers would be both difficult and costly. The lepers had up to the present been treated at Robben Island as well as it was possible to do so under the circumstances. Notwithstanding what the mover had said, he believed, from his experience in the East, that this hideous disease was either contagious or infectious. Continuing, the hon. member hoped that medical and scientific men would be careful about the statements they made on the subject of this disease. They should be sure of their ground. He trusted that the Government, after all had been said, would have some pity and consideration for these suffering people.

referred to a petition which he had placed on the table. It was, he was understood to observe, an extremely hard case and he hoped that the Government would take the petition into serious consideration.

thanked the mover for the careful way in which he had handled the question. It was not correct, as had been asserted, that nothing was done for the lepers. Thanks to the repeated discussions in Parliament, their position had been much improved. The Government of the former Cape Colony wanted to remove the lepers to the district of Caledon, but so many objections were raised that the plan had to be abandoned. Such a thing might again occur, though personally he had no objection. In any case the Government must make the lives of the unfortunate people as agreeable as possible, wherever they might place them.

with the leave of the House, withdrew his amendment.

said that this debate had taken place in the House year after year, and he could quite understand the impatience of his hon. friend the member for Jagersfontein that notwithstanding all the eloquence and all the arguments that had been brought to bear on the subject, nothing had been done. Hon. members must understand that this question was surrounded by peculiar difficulties. If it were a new matter which they were free to deal with in its initial stages, there was no doubt that something would be done. But they were faced with a situation that had been going on for years. The present Government was not responsible for the choice of Robben Island, and ever since that spot was chosen this state of affairs had been growing up. A great deal of expense had been lavished on the station, and the difficulties had become greater as the years passed. The suitability or unsuitability of the island had been commented on during the course of the debate, but he did not think that he was called upon to express an opinion on this subject. If the position of years past had to be reviewed that day no doubt a different decision would be arrived at. Even if the Island were unsuitable the difficulty of making a change would be considerable. He did not agree with one of the speakers that it was solely a question of expense, but this point had to be considered, he would admit, because it would cost a considerable sum of money to discard Robben Island and remove the lepers to the mainland. It was not the decisive matter, but one of the points that had to be borne in mind Previous Governments had tried to find a better situation on the mainland and had failed. Unsuccessful inquiries had been made from time to time in order to find a better place on the mainland for isolating these unfortunate people. That was no reason, however, why they should give up the search. (Hear, hear.) He would be pleased indeed if hon. members from the Cape Province would submit their ideas as to suitable localities. (Hear, hear.) If a better site were suggested perhaps Government would be able to face the difficulties and get over the question of expense. There was no doubt that Robben Island was not a suitable place for the segregation of lepers, and that everything there was more expensive than it would be on the mainland. He hoped that hon. members would make practical suggestions so that the Government might arrive at a solution of the difficulty. He regretted some of the statements made by the hon. member for Woodstock on the question of segregation. The hon. member spoke as though segregation was a point which should be discussed upon its merits. That was a point upon which no single word should be said by anybody in authority which would have a tendency to mislead the people of South Africa. He did not think that that was a position which the hon. member, as one in authority, should take up, because there was a complete consensus of expert opinion that leprosy in South Africa was a contagious disease. A few weeks ago he received a letter from Dr. Turner, one of the biggest experts in the world, and he said that all his experience and all his researches had tended to confirm his opinion that the policy adopted in South Africa in regard to segregation was the proper course to follow. When he (the speaker) was Colonial Secretary in the Transvaal a case came to his notice of a lady who was suffering from the disease but not in a virulent form. He (the speaker) came to the conclusion that with proper medical supervision here was one case for home segregation. Under medical supervision, he thought it might be possible to segregate her at home. She was allowed to go back to her home and allowed to live there under the supervision of the district surgeon. That lady was to-day in the Pretoria Asylum and two other members of the family with her. He mentioned this to show how exceedingly dangerous it was to play with a disease like leprosy in South Africa. In other countries no harm seemed to be done, but here in South Africa they knew only too well that the disease was developed under family conditions, he did not say hereditarily, and that it nan in families where they lived together.

It was true that they had not coped very fully with leprosy in South Africa. A certain amount of segregation in asylums and otherwise was being carried out here, but he did not think from statistics which had been submitted to him that they had more than half the lepers of South Africa segregated in asylums. It was calculated that there must be at least a thousand lepers at large in this country, not among the whites, because, he thought, among the whites the tendency was for every leper to find his way into an asylum, but amongst the native population it was difficult to carry out the law effectively, and the result was that he was advised that there were about a thousand lepers at large in South Africa. He thought the policy of the State in this country should be to get hold of these people also. Hon. members would see that it was a disease which had not been stamped out altogether. They had got a certain limited number of lepers in South Africa, and if they could get these people together and deal with them there was a chance that in a certain time they might stamp the disease out of South Africa altogether. He thought, so far from relaxing the practice of segregation which had been adopted hitherto, they should rather strengthen it. There was one matter which had been referred to by the hon. member for Woodstock, which he (General Smuts) regretted very much. Last year he stated to the House, when a similar motion was made, that it was the intention of the Government to appoint an expert to conduct leprosy research here in South Africa, and he said at the time that their idea was to get out Dr. Turner. It had been impossible to get Dr. Turner, but, although they were not able to get him, Dr. Turner had been continuing his researches in Europe, and he hoped they would have the benefit of his work. The Government had been supporting him there financially, assisting him in the conduct of his experiments and researches, and he hoped that this country would have the benefit of that vast experience which he (Dr. Turner) picked up in the course of many years in South Africa.

As soon as it was seen to be impossible to get Dr. Turner, he (General Smuts) turned his attention to other quarters, and he was glad to say that, as a result of their efforts, they had now a man who would be here next month or the following month, who was acknowledged to be one of the greatest leprosy experts in the world—Dr. Bayon. He only got into touch with Dr. Bayon through Dr. Turner and through the Tropical School of Medicine, and they had arranged to get him out for a number of years to South Africa. He had already done a large amount of research work in leprosy, and he was therefore not a man who came fresh to the work, but a man who had picked up a great deal of experience and was very well qualified to conduct investigations, and he thought it might be possible for Dr. Bayon to help them a long way on the road to a solution of this question. The researches conducted on Robben Island by Dr. Sandes had to be continued and completed. He had arrived at one result, which, if found to be correct, was of the greatest importance. He found that it was possible to inoculate with the leprosy bacilli the bugs which were ordinarily found in beds and bedsteads. In corresponding with experts in Europe on this question, two lines of investigation had been suggested to him for research. The one line was this which he had mentioned and which had been investigated by Dr. Sandes and the other was a different line of research. He was told that that might prove an even more fruitful line of research, and it was this, that they should have an expert who would study the social conditions of this country under which leprosy arose and spread. It was quite possible that an expert, a highly trained man, investigating these conditions might find out in what way leprosy was so contagious in this country, more contagious than elsewhere. When Dr. Bayon arrived here he would start with this work. He would conduct this research, and it might be possible for him to follow both lines of research, and he hoped that this appointment would be justified. This question of segregation would also be referred to him, and he would assure his hon. friend that one of the questions he would be asked specially to direct his attention to would be this question of segregation. That being so, he did not think it was necessary for them to take any other steps, besides the appointment of Dr. Bayon, to go into this question. He did not think the appointment of a roving Commission to go into all sorts of questions connected with leprosy on Robben Island, etc., would lead them much further. He admitted that certain things required alteration, but it was only a question of time and a question of place and he thought these questions would be solved. He had no objection to the motion, but he thought that a Commission in the form that he had stated was the wisest and the best, and that they ought to let Dr. Bayon conduct his researches instead of having a Commission in some other form of a number of gentlemen who were more or less on the lines they had before, and who would not carry as much weight. (Hear, hear.)

said his hon. friend (General Smuts) knew there were a large number of people in that House who felt very strongly on this question, and deprecated in the strongest possible manner the necessity of this question being discussed session after session, and the reason they deprecated that was that it had a tendency to raise false hopes in the minds of these unfortunate people who were segregated on Robben Island. Under Union they had an entirely different condition of affairs from what they had in the old Cape Colony. He could understand a proposal to place all the lepers in the Union on Robben Island, but he could not possibly understand how there was any argument to justify a certain section of lepers being segregated on Robben Island when a larger majority of lepers were kept at various leper institutions throughout the length and breadth of the Union. His hon. friend had referred to the fact that the necessity of segregation was one of vital importance, and one which he considered to be absolutely necessary in the interests of the public health to be carried out, but surely the appointment of this young gentleman, who, he believed, was a very clever man, but as to whom he could not believe that the Minister of the Interior had any justification for saying that he was one of the greatest living authorities on leprosy, was no reason for his hon. friend refusing in an important question of this kind the appointment of a strong and independent Commission.

He found that the last time the Commission sat was in 1897, and he believed then, that his hon. friend was a member. Since that time a great deal of information had been collected upon the matter of leprosy, but surely the matter of expense should not influence the Government in dealing with the leprosy question. All they asked, the Minister was not to pledge himself to a policy now, but to agree to the appointment of a Commission which would go into the question and see whether these people should be segregated or not on Robben Island. There were many differences of opinion upon this point. Many people believed that lepers should be allowed to have a larger measure of freedom than was allowed on Robben Island. If, in the interests of the public health, it should be found necessary to segregate people for the term of their natural lives on Robben Island, it was the duty of the Government and the duty of the House to see that this was done. But they realised that a large number of lepers and their friends were so afraid of segregation, that they would not disclose the disease. Under the circumstances, while approving in the strongest manner possible of getting an expert to carry on investigations, he regretted that they were not able to take advantage of the admirable services of Dr. Turner, but in the general interests of the whole country he hoped a Commission would be appointed to report once and for all upon this question that was agitating the whole country.

referred to a case of leprosy in Brisbane where two boys were found to have contracted the disease from Chinese storekeepers. Another case was that of Mary Reid, who went to India as a missionary. Although she was reported to be in perfect health when there, after two years she was taken ill and was stated to be suffering from leprosy. When Father Damien went to Molokai he was no more a leper than the hon. member. The Jews had always been held up as a model, and the hygienic measures they adopted had always been recommended as a preventive of such diseases, nevertheless, they had gone in for a policy of segregation for leprosy.

hoped the Minister of the Interior would accept the motion as it stood, because he believed that everyone in the House was agreed that some Commission should be appointed. He had asked a question some time ago if the Minister was prepared to treat leprosy upon modern lines, and the reply that he got from the Minister was that he did not know what modern lines were, but to-day he had stated something upon modern lines which he (Dr. Hewat) could not accept and which would not bear scrutiny. Immediately they got a man from the School of Tropical Medicine, they got a man whose ideas were more or less theoretical and who would cost the country a good deal of money. A Commission, however, which would take evidence and was composed of strong and able men, who had both practical and theoretical experience, would do a great deal of good. He did not know of any one man who would give satisfaction to everybody, but, at least, in a Commission they could have a Majority Report which would be sufficient to guide the Minister. He asked the Minister to appoint this Commission, because he believed it would give general satisfaction.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petition from C. D. Hall and 168 other inhabitants of Ladybrand, praying for remission of arrear interest due on the loan in connection with the railway line from Ladybrand to Modderpoort, presented to the House on the 16th April, 1912, be referred to the Government for consideration. He said that when the line was constructed between Bloemfontein and Ladysmith it was made to pass Ladybrand at a distance of six miles. The inhabitants of Ladybrand asked for a branch line from Modderpoort to Ladybrand. It was agreed to, and cost £18,000, and the people of Ladybrand accepted the liability for the difference between the revenue from the line and the interest on the cost of construction. When the line was laid the capital amount on which interest was payable was put at £25,000, however. In view of the statement made by the Free State Minister of Public Works—namely, that second-hand material had been used—that amount was too high. The people of Ladybrand paid the interest in the hope that the line would afterwards be lengthened, but the Free State Government built another line parallel with it to Maseru. The new line obtained all the traffic, and the loss on the Ladybrand line became greater. The Free State Government took over the last-mentioned line, but demanded £1,500 arrear interest. That was too much for a little village which had become almost moribund owing to the construction of the Maseru line. He asked that the arrear interest should be written off. (Hear, hear.)

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that the petitions from J. P. le Grange Lombard, praying for compensation or relief in respect of a concession to build a tram line granted to him by the late Transvaal Government; and for consideration and relief in respect of moneys advanced by him during the late war and in regard to which a loan was obtained from the Transvaal Government, presented to the House on the 15th and 16th April 1912, respectively, be referred to the Government for consideration. He explained that Mr. Lombard obtained a concession just before the war to lay a tram-line at Johannesburg. After the war the concession was given by Lord Milner to somebody else, which caused a loss of thousands of pounds, and Mr. Lombard now desired to have his rights recognised. During the war he had sold 100 horses to the Republic at £25 each, but that money he had never received. He had also lent £10,000 to the South African Republic to pay for slaughter cattle for the commandos. After the war he had received an assurance from the Boer leaders that they would take care he suffered no loss. He thereupon borrowed £12,000 from the Milner Government on the strength of that claim. He obtained permission to buy cattle in German South West Africa, and when his agent had loaded up a large, quantity of cattle and other goods, they were stopped. The cattle were on the border, and when the rebellion in German South-West Africa broke out, the members of the expedition were commandeered for the German forts, and the cattle were stolen by the Hottentots. To his request for compensation the German Government offered £8,000, but that offer was afterwards withdrawn. Then he borrowed money, and went to buy donkeys in German East Africa. Permission to enter the Transvaal was again refused, and the donkeys were sold at a loss of £6.000. The animals were, however, removed from the Transvaal by others on the same ship on which Lombard’s agents travelled. The donkeys were sold to the Boers by the Repatriation Department at £12 each. The money was borowed on the security of Lombard’s farms, which had now been sold for a small amount. Lombard had served the country the whole of his life, and the result was that he now had nothing.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved, in the absence of Sir L. S. Jameson: “That the petitions from H. Fichat, Mayor, on behalf of the Municipal Corporation of the city of Grahamstown, and from T. H. Parker and 2,356 other inhabitants of the districts of Albany and Bathurst in the Province of the cape of Good Hope, presented to the House on the 5th March, 1912, praying that the Kowie Railway be taken over by the Union Government and incorporated with the general system of South African Railways, or for other relief, be referred to the Government for consideration.” The hon. member said that the conditions which had arisen in connection with the Kowie railway were of a most serious character owing to the working of that railway, and he honed that the Government would give the matter full consideration.

seconded.

said that he might tell the hon. member that he was fully acquainted with the case. When that unfortunate accident had occurred he had looked into the matter of the Government in relation to that, and also the state of the railway and its financial condition. He had two deputations which interviewed him, so that he was fully acquainted with the circumstances. He could only say that it would receive consideration.

The motion was agreed to.

moved: That the petitions praying that the Miners’ Phthisis Bill may be so amended as to secure to the sufferers from phthisis compensation in conformity with the principles of workmen’s compensation, presented to the House on the 23rd April, 1912, from H. Steyn and 535 others; H. Classen and 151 others; E. Williams and 8 others; E. Bawden and 124 others; B. H. Geldenhuijs and 639 others; A. D. Maxwell and 798 others; P. W. Stanton and 1,017 others; A. W. T. Langford and 299 others; J. Cunningham and 718 others; and J. C. Pretorius and 1,039 others, miners on the Witwatersrand; be referred to the Select Committee on the Miners’ Phthisis Bill.

seconded.

moved as an amendment, in the penultimate line, after “Witwatersrand, to insert “and from W. Hawthorn and 118 others, miners on the Witwatersrand, presented to the House this day.”

seconded.

The amendment was agreed to.

The amended motion was agreed to.

moved: That the Government be requested to take into immediate consideration the desirability of so amending the railway tariff for trek-sheep as will enable trek-farmers to avail themselves of the railway when moving their stock to winter pastures. He said that provision was made in this Province and the Transvaal for the cheap transport by nail of trek-sheep, but only when the sheep were brought back was the reduced tariff in operation. When Transvaal sheep were taken to the winter veld the full tariff had to be paid. The difficulty lay in the fact that September and October was the lambing time, and it was impossible to entrain the young lambs, as they would be trodden to death, and great losses would ensue. The attempt to help the farmers was therefore impracticable, and some other method should be attempted. So long as the present regulations were in force most of the trek-farmers were unable to make use of the railways. If the sheep were not brought back by railway the farmer obtained no reduction, and that appeared to him to be unfair. The public desired to see the tariffs reduced. The present railway rates for carrying sheep to the winter veld were too high, and owing to the wire fences in the Transvaal trekking along the roads of the high veld became every year more troublesome. The desire to use the railways was therefore increasing. It had been alleged that if the condition were removed, speculators would abuse the privilege. It appeared to him, however, that it was the present tariffs which were to the advantage of the speculators, and he quoted an example in support. It was said that the trekking of sheep ought to be stopped, and there was a general disposition in favour of that. Moreover, he believed that it would be stopped in future; but up to the present, and under the existing circumstances, trekking was necessary. It would be impossible to force matters without destroying the wool industry. The present system should be allowed to die a natural death. It was almost impossible on the high veld to produce fodder for a great number of cattle. The costs would be so great that they might as well give up sheen farming. ’For ten years he had vainly sought a method of doing it The wool production was of the greatest importance for the high veld, and deserved the help of the Government.

seconded the motion. Trekking in the Transvaal with sheep was unavoidable, and railway rates should therefore be made as easy as possible. It had been stated that the cost of carrying sheep a single journey in the Transvaal was dearer than for the double journey. They should give facilities to carry sheep cheaply on the single journey, and the animals could be allowed to trek back. The cattle should be watered in the trucks, and, as was done in Australia, the vehicles should ’be double-deckers. He hoped the motion would be agreed to.

said that reduced rates were only in force at the Cape in times of drought. In such times the Government had never refused to carry cattle cheaply, and under the circumstances he thought it would be desirable to leave the matter in the hands of the Government and not to alter the law on the subject. He moved as an amendment to add at the end of the motion, “and in times of drought.”

seconded the amendment.

considered the motion was one of the greatest importance. The transport of sheep by train was rapidly increasing. Young lambs could not be carried by train until they were two months old, and he agreed that sheep should be carried in trucks with two stories. It was impossible for the farmer to grow winter fodder for the sheep on the high veld, at least it was only possible on a few farms. He supported the motion.

said that this was a matter that engaged the attention of the old Cape Government for a good many years. In that Province the custom had been to reduce the railway rates on stock in a time of drought. He believed that something similar existed in the Province of the Transvaal. Last year, when there was a drought, the practice of the Cape Province was carried into effect. He had always been in favour of the principle. The point was that in the Cape the Government had insisted that the stock should be brought back because speculators took advantage of these rates upon which Government lost money. The practice in the Cape had been to charge the full rate when the stock was taken away, and give a large rebate if the animals were brought back. The question raised by the hon. member who moved the motion was that the lambing season intervened, and that in many cases farmers were unable to bring the sheep back, and so claim the large rebate allowed. This matter had been discussed by the Railway Board, but he (the Minister) had heard many other arguments Advanced that afternoon which had not been brought to the notice of that body. If the motion were carried he would be pleased to bring these additional considerations to the notice of the Railway Board, so that it might come to a fair decision.

The amendment was agreed to.

The amended motion was agreed to.

moved: That the petitions from E. Mavrogordato and 882 others and from E. Cameron and 863 others praying for legislation fixing the age of consent throughout the Union at over 16 years or not under 16 years, presented to the House on the 24th April, 1912 be referred to the Government for consideration.” The mover said that the question had been before the House on many occasions, and he thought that it deserved the serious consideration of Government. Those who worked among children in the poorer parts of the large towns knew that there was urgent need for amendment.

seconded.

in supporting the motion, said he had handed in petitions with numerous signatures in support. It was a most serious matter. A girl of fourteen years was much too young to understand what she was doing. In the Transvaal the age of consent was put at sixteen. He moved as an amendment that the petition of Mr. Burger and 1,600 others, presented on February 12th, be included in the provisions of the motion.

seconded the amendment.

I will accept that.

in supporting the motion, said that in the Transvaal, Natal, and the Free State the age of consent was sixteen, and he thought the whole Union should be brought into line. In the United Kingdom the age of consent was raised from thirteen to sixteen in 1885: in France and Belgium it is 21; in South Australia 17; in Victoria 16; in 23 of the United States it is 16 and in 12 it is 18. He trusted that the Government would consider the matter and bring in legislation to raise the age of consent in the Cape Colony, so that the Union would come into line with the majority of the civilised nations of the world.

supported the motion, and asked for severe measures to be taken. He thought that 22 years was better than 16—(laughter, and “Hear, hear”)—as the future of the nation in this country depended mainly on the women.

heartily supported the previous speaker. He thought that if it were only to influence a matter of that kind, women were entitled to be enfranchised.

The amendment was agreed to.

The amended motion was agreed to.

moved: “That the petition from T. J. de Wet and 23 others of Lichtenburg, presented to the House on the 5th February, 1912; the petition from P. A. Cronje and 37 other inhabitants of the district of Lichtenburg, presented to the House on the 14th February, 1912; the petitions from J. J. Terblanche and 93 others, J. S. Labuschagne and 70 others, G. C. Schoeman and 46 others, W. C. Swart and 72 others, inhabitants and farmers of the district of Lichtenburg, presented to the House on the 26th March, 1912; and the petition from J. C. Coetzee and 65 other inhabitants of the district of Lichtenburg, presented to the House on the 22nd April, 1912, praying that Government waterdrills be hired out to farmers at the previous tariff of £2 per diem, or for other relief, be referred to the Government for consideration.” He referred to the discussion which had taken place last year, and added that the petitions spoke for themselves. Everyone was compelled to construct dipping tanks, although in many cases there was no water. They should therefore make water boring cheaper.

seconded the motion.

said he had no objection to the motion. The matter had, however, already been dealt with and relief given He was only too glad to help the less well-to-do, but it was not properly understood that the drills were now much better than the old ones, for which £2 was charged. For £4 per day a good deal more than double the work was done. There were always plenty of orders, even at the high price, and that was because the success was so great. They could not improve private property at the expense of the State.

was glad to receive the assurance of the Minister. Where they sank wells on uninhabited farms it would tend to increase the population. The old drills did good work, and the new ones did not always do twice as much. The high cost of transport and fuel made the price still higher. He did not want to help those farmers who could bore for themselves, but pleaded for the small man who had insufficient means. The more they reduced the tariff, the more would be the indirect profit for the State, even if there were a small direct loss. (Hear, hear.) The Minister must not too closely regard the cost. The best cattle districts were usually the driest, and cheap boring was therefore necessary.

said the Minister should consider whether it was not possible to meet the farmer as to costs who had bored in vain for water They had to bore in the dry districts, and the Minister did well in giving time for the payment of the costs. The general costs ought, however, to be reduced.

said that for the drills for which £2 per day was formerly paid, they now charged £4 per day. There was only a small item on the Estimates for water boring. The Government had only 65 drills with which to seek for water on 40,000,000 morgen of Crown lands. The number was entirely insufficient, and there should be at least 650 drills.

pointed out that drilling was for many farmers too expensive. A farmer he knew had to nay £420 for the sinking of a well, whereas no water was found. In such a case he thought the charge should be subject to a discount. The Cape Government had always contributed to the cost incurred in sinking wells, and if that system were adopted throughout the whole Union it would have good results. The Government had now sent four drills to Gordonia, and although he was grateful for them, the number was quite insufficient. He thought that those who worked the drills should pay more attention to the suggestions of the farmers.

said he did not want to go into the question of the amount of money to be paid for the use of drills, but again to bring to the notice of his right hon. friend the question he had discussed with him privately—that was, that it would be worth the Minister’s while to discuss with the Director of Irrigation the possibility of Government putting down a few test boreholes to a considerable depth—(cheers)—to a depth to which a private farmer would be impossible to bore. Millions of acres of ground under the Minister’s administration would be very valuable could water be found on it. He did not say that Government should put down a bore-hole on private land, although if that were done there would be a possibility of entering into an arrangement by which Government would fully be recouped for its outlay in the event of water being discovered. Government should endeavour to find whether it was possible to obtain artesian water. There was a bore-hole in the Cradock district which delivered about a million gallons a day. There was another bore-hole near Matjesfontein which also delivered on the surface. Should water be found on Government property, it would be paid for many times over by the enormously increased value of the ground. (Hear, hear.)

said it was worthy of recommendation to give allowances to those who sank wells. That would be especially good in districts where the transport of drills was impossible.

said he had been informed last year by the Minister that the new drills would do three times as much work as the old ones. During the recess, however, the speaker had found out that in some cases the new drills did less work than the old ones. In such cases the price was too high, and should be reduced to £2 per day.

said that he represented one of those districts which wanted Government water bores. They urgently wanted these bores in his district. Government drills were said by the people to be too expensive; and the Government should endeavour to cut down the expenses to such an extent that the people could use these bores as they were intended to be used.

said the Free State was drier than either the Transvaal or the Cane, and he hoped, therefore, that the Free State would get the use of some of the drills.

said that if individual farmers cooperated in sufficient numbers they could get the water bores at a lower price than they could be furnished by the Government. He quoted from an article dealing with the depths of bore holes in Australia. He thought that what was wrong was that the Government did not take the initiative, and he hoped that it would take the initiative; and let the Divisional or Municipal Councils contribute, because they would gain enormously in the end.

The motion was agreed to.

communicated the folio wing message from the Senate: The Senate transmits to the House of Assembly the Bill “To make further provision relating to the Administration of Justice.” Note: That paragraph (a) of clause 8, paragraphs (a) and (b) of clause 24, have been struck out and placed, between brackets with a foot-note stating that such paragraphs do not form part of the Bill passed by the Senate, and in which the Senate desires the concurrence of the House of Assembly.

The Bill was read a first time, and set down for second reading on Friday.