for legislation during the present session granting the franchise to women on the same terms as it is, or may be, granted to men.

similar petition from the Women’s Enfranchisement League.

from A. B. du Toit and 22 other Civil Servants, for permission to contribute arrears to Pension. Funds for periods of probationary service.

moved, as an unopposed motion, that the petition from Pieter D. Swart, of Marico, Transvaal, who had been wounded in the mouth by a bullet shot during the late war, from the effects of which he suffers, praying for consideration and relief, presented to the House on the 5th of March, be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities.

seconded.

Agreed to.

as Acting Chairman, brought up the third report of the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities, recommending: The award to W. D. van Alphen, teacher, on his retirement, of a pension calculated in accordance with the schedule to Proclamation No. 286 of 1896, Gape of Good Hope; that, subject to repayment by G. H. White, within a period of three months, of the gratuity of £116 7s. 3d. already received by him, the period of his service, in respect of which that gratuity was awarded, be allowed to count for pension purposes on his ultimate retirement; that breaks in the services of C. W. Profitt (gaoler), J. C. Blyth (teacher), E. M. Wahl (teacher), M. N. Krynauw (teacher), D. J. Orffer (teacher), and M. du Toit (teacher) be condoned. They were unable to recommend the following: H. Baylis, A. J. Cloete, H. C. Read, H. McCabe, W. A. Chippindall, W. J. Standford, W. A. McMurray, G. F. Smith, L. Howe, H. Clark, M. E. Biccard, F. A. Smit and four others, J. L. vail der Walt, E. F. Hardiman, A. M. C. Berry, J. N. Cock, D. Sullivan, J. W. Goldsworthy, and S C. Chase.

With reference to the petitions of S. Herzberger and A. M. Harris, the committee were of opinion that the application for relief should be deferred until such time as petitioners retire on pension.

The report was set down for consideration in committee of the whole House on Wednesday, the 10th inst.

Memorandum showing existing death duties in the several Provinces, and in other countries.

asked the Minister of Railways when he was prepared to lay the details of his Railway Loan Bill on the table. The Minister had promised it on Thursday last.

was understood to say that the larger amounts would be specified in the Estimates. The matter was not so simple as it looked, but he would lay the details on the table as soon as possible.

asked the Minister of Lands: (1) Upon what basis the purchase price for Koranna Kolk and Noabies in the Kenhardt Division, advertised for application, has been fixed; (2) whether he is aware that the prices realised for the adjoining lands put up for auction last November are far in excess of the value of the lands; (3) whether it was not the intention of the Legislature in framing Act No. 40 of 1895 (Cape), to enable bona fide applicants for land for occupation to obtain such land at a fair value without the price being abnormally raised by auction, and, if so, whether the prices fixed for these lands carry out that intention; (4) whether he will re-consider the prices fixed for these lands with a view to fixing them at a reasonable figure; and (5) whether in future he will cause the issue of lands thrown open for application to be fixed according to local values after careful inquiry from persons intimately acquainted with such local values?

replied: (1) The purchase price for Koranna Kolken and Noabies was fixed after full consideration of the amounts obtained for certain adjoining farms recently sold at public auction, and was fixed at a price somewhat below that so obtained. (2) I have no reason to believe that the prices realised for these adjoining farms at public auction are in excess of the value of the land. On the other hand, I have information to the effect that there is a keen demand for land in the Kenhardt district. (3) The intention of the late Cape Legislature in framing Act 40 of 189-5, as shown in the Act, was to enable the Government to allot farms to landless applicants with a view to ensuring the permanent residential occupation of land which might otherwise be bought for grazing or purely speculative purposes. There is nothing to show that it was intended to authorise the disposal of Crown lands at prices below their value. The proposed allotment of Koranna Kolken and, Noabies on the conditions advertised fulfils the intentions of the Act. (4) Until it is seen whether any applications will be submitted for the two farms at the prices advertised, it would be premature to consider the question of altering them. (5) The prices of all farms disposed of by Government in the Cape Province are fixed after consideration of valuations submitted by local Authorities acquainted with the land, and by the light of prices obtained for land of a similar description by public competition. Experience has proved that it would not be wise to alter the practice, and to adopt, as a fixed rule, the values given by local persons.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether it is a fact that a Government, official who left Pietermaritzburg by train No. 382 on 21st March, 1912, was given a carriage reserved entirely for himself from Pietermaritzburg to Bloemfontein, whilst other passengers who had paid for their tickets were seriously over-crowded in the train by which he travelled?

The answer to this question is in the negative, but I am informed that Hon. A. T. Oliff, late Minister of Railways, Natal, and Mr. Swinburne, Inspector of mines, shared a compartment from Maritzburg to Harrismith, and instructions were that when Hon. Mr. Oliff left the train at Harrismith, the compartment from there to Bloemfontein was to be available for another passenger. Mr. Swinburne travelled alone from Harrismith to Bloemfontein, but there was ample accommodation on the train throughout, and no complaints were made respecting over-crowding.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether he has received any complaints about the irregularities which occurred on the farms Wonderfontein, Vergenoegd, and other farms in the district of Marico in connection with the issue of permits for the removal of horned cattle from and to those farms; (2) whether he is aware that it is alleged that permits were issued to some and refused to others causing dissatisfaction because of such partial treatment; (3) whether he will have the matter inquired into so that justice may be done by the extension of equal treatment to all?

(1) No specific complaints have been received regarding irregularities in the issue of permits; (2) permits are being issued to those who are prepared to conform to the conditions imposed by the Department for the better protection of the community; (3) I am satisfied from inquiries which I have made that there has been no partiality displayed in the issue of permits to farmers in the districts concerned.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) Whether statements, showing the number of votes cast for each candidate and the number of rejected ballot papers similar to those published in the Cape “Gazette” of April 10, 1908, were published in the Union “Gazette” after the general election of 1910, and after subsequent by elections; and whether the Government will in future publish such statements; (2) whether, after the biennial registration, comparative tabular statements showing the number of registered Parliamentary voters, together with full statistics in respect thereof for each electoral division and field-cornetcy and for the whole Colony were published in the Cape “Gazette” of 26th November, 1907, and 3rd September, 1909; (3) whether statements, similar to those published in 1907 and 1909. or any other information, as to the result of the registration of 1911, have yet been published; and, if not, (4) whether the Minister will, without further delay, publish in the “Gazette” a statement regarding the registration in the Cape Province, similar to those published in the Cape “Gazette” in 1905 and 1907; and also publish statements regarding the registration in the other Provinces as soon as these can be prepared?

A statement such as that to which the hon. member refers was published in the Cape “Provincial Gazette” on October 14, 1910. Such returns have not thitherto been published in the other Provinces, but steps will be taken to do so in future. (2) Statements in regard to the last registration in the Cape, Transvaal, and Natal Provinces were published in the “Union Government Gazette” on March 26, 1912, and the figures for the Orange Free State will be published as soon as they are available.

May I ask my hon. friend whether he will publish a statement showing the race differences similar to those published in the “Government Gazette”?

It is hoped to publish that as soon as possible.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether it is a fact that prior to February 1, 1911, the railway tariff for a truck load of oxen from Springfontein to Johannesburg was £4 4s. 8d., and that the same has since been increased to £5 4s. 8d., and if so, why?

The answer to this question is in the affirmative. This increase was brought about through assimilation of dissimilar tariffs throughout Union for conveyance of live-stock, which, in some cases, had the effect of reducing and in others of increasing charges at certain mileages. Despite any increases the Administration had, on the whole, to surrender considerable revenue on account of reductions in charges on live-stock, and this not withstanding the fact that rates for live-stock were already low. The charge of £5 4s. 8d. yields to the Administration only 3½d. per truck per mile for haulage from Springfontein to Johannesburg, and this is lower than the tariff for conveyance of cattle in force in any Australian colony.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) What provision is made for the consideration of the mitigation of sentences in the case of persons detained in (a) prisons and (b) reformatories; (2) whether any convicts or inmates of reformatories who were entitled under the old Cape Colony law to automatic mitigation of sentences subject to good conduct, and were subsequently detained in reformatories, have lost this right under Union; and (3) whether the Government proposes to take any action in respect to this matter?

(1) The provision made for the consideration of the mitigation of sentences in the case of persons detained in prisons is set forth in sections 47 to 51 of the Prisons. Act No. 13 of 1911. and the Prison Regulations 505 to 512 framed thereunder. In the case of persons detained in reformatories the provisions are contained in section 56 of the Act and in Regulation No. 43 framed thereunder. (2) No convicts or inmates of reformatories were under the old Cape Colony law entitled as of legal right to mitigation of sentence. By section 101 of the Prisons Act the methods of mitigation introduced by that Act are made applicable to all convicts or inmates sentenced before the coming into force of that Act. (3) As no legal right has been lost no remedy is proposed beyond advising the Board, Superintendent and Wardens in making recommendations to draw special attention to any hard cases where expectations have been disappointed and the conduct of the convict has been uniformly good.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether the information published annually, in reference to the Cape Province, in the Statistical Register of that Province is available for the information of Parliament for the years 1910 and 1911, and if so, when it will be presented to Parliament?

replied: It is the intention of the Government, as soon as the Census results are completed, to take them as a basis on which future statistical returns will be prepared. An annual publication, somewhat on the lines of the Statistical Register of the Cape of Good Hope, will be issued, embracing information concerning all four Provinces.

asked the Minister of Education: (1) How many candidates entered for the survey examination in 1911-12 from each Province; (2) how many passed and from which Province; and (3) whether the Education Department will make inquiries as to the cause of the many failures to satisfy the examiners?

replied: (1) There were 14 candidates for the Examination held in February, 1912. From the addresses given by the candidates on their entry forms it would appear that one belongs to the Cape Province, one to Natal, nine to the Transvaal, and three to Rhodesia. (2) Of the 14 candidates two were successful, viz., one from Natal and one from Rhodesia. (3) This was the first year in which this particular examination has been conducted by the University, and the question of reconsidering the standards is now under discussion.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he is aware that the members of this House have as yet not been supplied with a copy of the “General Regulations for the Government of Convict Prisons and Gaols,” which were laid by him upon the table of this House on the 26th January last, and that although application has been made for the same, members have been informed that none are available, by reason whereof they have been and are put to considerable inconvenience; (2) why have the regulations not been supplied to members; and (3) what is the earliest that they may reasonably expect to be furnished with the same?

replied: Like all other regulations, the regulations referred to by the hon. member have been published in the “Gazette,” and no copies are distributed amongst members. This being the case, it is not my intention to depart from the general rule, as such a course would be unnecessary (if hon. members would refer to the “Gazette”), and would, moreover, entail additional expense.

asked the Minister of Agriculture to state: (1) The number of officials of the Agriculture Department actually employed in the Orange Free State; (2) the appointments which they hold, and the work which they do; (3) the emoluments which they receive; and (4) the places where they are stationed?

replied that the following officials were serving the Agricultural Department in the Free State: One dry-land farming expert, one chief veterinary surgeon, five district veterinary surgeons, one second-class clerk, one assistant entomologist, two sheep and wool experts, three chief scab inspectors, 59 scab inspectors, 1 dairy expert, one manager of the Tweespruit experimental farm, one agricultural assistant, one arboriculturist, one second-class clerk, one manager of the Grootvlei experimental station, one poultry expert, and one manager of the Besterspruit experimental station, making a total of 81 officials.

asked the Minister of Lands why the farm Landsberghoek, 1533 Waterberg, which was leased jointly to desirable occupants on a monthly basis pending publication in the “Gazette,” in accordance with the Crown Lands Disposal Ordinance of that intention, was not thus advertised for disposal, the lease cancelled and the farm handed over to and placed at the disposal of the Native Affairs Department?

replied: The farm Landsberghoek 1533, Waterberg, in extent 3,680 morgen, was acquired by the Government of the late South African Republic in 1895. It was reserved in 1907 as a Native Location, subsequently it was arranged that another farm should be set apart in lieu thereof and Landsberghoek made available for settlement. This proposal was, however, withdrawn, as the exchange was considered inadvisable for administrative reasons.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) What is the charge for telephones in the various parts of the Union; and (2) whether the Government proposes to make the charge uniform; and, if so, when?

replied: (1) The principal telephone rates for business connections at the larger exchanges are: In the Cape and Natal, £10 a year, Orange Free State, £12 a year, for unlimited service; Transvaal, £10 and £7 10s., according to class of service, plus one penny per call after the first 900 calls. Lower rates apply at the smaller exchanges throughout the Union and for lines to private residences. (2) It is the intention of the Government to make the tariff uniform throughout the Union. A departmental committee is at present collecting the information which is required before a decision can be arrived at as to what the unified tariff should be.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether his attention has been called to the very serious delay in the transmission of telegrams between Johannesburg and Cape Town, such delay frequently being as long as two hours, and if he will take steps to remedy the same?

replied: I am informed that delays, amounting in some cases to two hours, have occasionally occurred on the Cape Town-Johannesburg section. They arise mostly during periods of special Stock Ex-change activity. Two additional lines are now in course of erection, and these, when completed, will enable telegrams to be handled without loss of time. A contributing cause of the delays is the fact that construction parties are occasionally obliged to interrupt traffic while wires are being transferred from one position on the poles to another. This is unavoidable in all such construction work. 1 can assure the hon. member that everything possible is being done by the Department to minimise inconvenience to the public.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether it is the case that the Railway Administration has entered into an arrangement with the owners of the mail steamers for the sale of coal to them; and if so, whether he will state why this unusual course has been adopted and what the terms and conditions are on which such coal is to be sold?

The answer to the first question is in the affirmative. In regard to question No. 2, the stocks of bunkering coal on hand at Cape Town have been reduced owing to the considerable demand for coal for bunkering purposes, and as difficulty is experienced in maintaining supplies, due to scarcity of sea transport from Durban, the administration has agreed to provide coal from its stocks so as to ensure fulfilment of orders which have been received. Had not the situation been met in this way, the reputation of Cape Town as a bunkering port would have suffered. Concerning question 3, so that there may be no danger of steamers being delayed, the administration has arranged to supply the Union-Castle Company with a limited quantity of coal (not exceeding 10,000 tons) from its stocks at 27s. 7d. per ton of 2,240 lb., which is inclusive of ordinary railage rate for coal for bunkering purposes brought overland from Natal to Cape Town. I think it includes putting it on the ship as well.

Is that delivered on board?

I think it means being placed on the ship.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether his attention has been called to the imperfect nature of the vital statistics which are obtainable from the office of the Registrar-General of Births and Deaths; and whether he intends to see that in future the records of that office are more complete, and in accordance with modern social and economic requirements?

I am not aware that the statistics recorded in the Births and Deaths Department are in any way deficient. The records are kept in accordance with the registration law in force.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) What gaols it is proposed to close and what the average of prisoners in each of them has been during the last two years; and (2) what the total reduction of staff and of expenditure resulting is expected to be?

The gaols in the Cape Province which it is proposed to close from the 1st of this month and the daily average of persons confined in them during the last two years are as follows: Simon’s Town, 14.6; George, 4.3; Port Alfred, 6.6; Durbanville, 8.5; Piquetberg, 5.1; Tulbagh, 14.7; Porterville, 2.5; Britstown, 5.9; Laingsburg, 5.3; Naauwpoort, 3.1; Uitenhage, 27.4 (this includes Port Elizabeth prisoners sent to Uitenhage for labour purposes, Uitenhage’s ordinary average being only 12); Sandflats, 1; Somerset, 8.5; Alice, 4.1; Middledrift, 1.7; Sterkstroom, 4; Heidelberg, 1.5; Cathcart, 6.4; Hopefield, 1.9; Bredasdorp, 5; Humansdorp, 7.4: Bolo, 0.1; Indwe, 8.4; Lady Grey, 6.5; Darling, 0.5; Prieska, 6.2; Carnarvon, 4.9; Willowmore, 3.9; Keiskama Hoek, 1.1; Hermanus, 0.3; Villiers-dorp, 0.05; Genadendal, 0.2; Tarkastad, 9.1: Wellington, 6.9: Taungs, 4.9: Vryburg. 13.7; New Bethesda, 0.5; Albertinia, 0.1: Molteno, 14.2; Steynsburg, 6.2; Barrvdale, 1.3: Hanover, 5.2; Seymour, 6.4; Windsorton, 3.8: Van Puttensvlei, 0.2; Klipplaat, 0.1. The total reduction of staff comprises 44 gaolers, 44 matrons, 1 head warder, 8 European and 19 native warders, or a total of 116 units. The total reduction of expenditure annually, including that in respect of five gaolers in the Free State, is as follows: £10,282 per annum, besides the sum of £11,500 which would have to be spent on construction works if the gaols are continued.

asked the Minister of Mines when the report of the Commission appointed on 7th April, 1910, to inquire into leasehold townships on the Witwatersrand will be published?

The report of the Commission referred to by the honourable member is in the hands of the printer, but, as it is a lengthy document, I am unable to state when it will be published.

asked the Minister of Finance: (1) Whether his attention has been directed to a letter of a Mr. C. de V. Duff in the “Transvaal Leader” of the 26th March, 1912, wherein he states (a) that, being desirous of having a lease stamped which was executed on the 26th October, 1911, and some doubt existing as to the amount of stamp duty involved, the question was submitted to the local office at Benoni, who advised that the lease be sent on to Pretoria, which was accordingly done on the 1st November, and that although inquiries were made on two or three occasions, nothing was heard in reply until the 15th November; and (b) that on the 17th November, when he attended at Boksburg for the purpose of stamping the lease with the required amount he was informed that he was 24 hours late, and would have to pay a fine of fifty per cent., which he did under protest; and (2) whether in view of the circumstances he will cause an inquiry to be made and, if satisfied that blame is to be attached to the Department, whether he will cause a refund of the fine to be made to Mr. Duff?

My attention has been called to this matter, and as it seems to me that the Department cannot be altogether relieved from responsibility for the delay that occurred, I have authorised a refund of the penalty exacted.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether his attention has been drawn to the inconvenience and danger to the travelling public due to the platforms at the Springs Station being considerably below the level of the train footboards and whether he will stake steps at an early date to have this state of affairs remedied?

The Administration does not agree that the safety of the travelling public is endangered by low level platforms at this place. Passenger traffic dealt with at Springs does not warrant expenditure which would be involved in raising platforms at this place, and many other places where low level platforms are in existence.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he is aware that sulphur mixed with other dips is an excellent remedy for scab, and is extensively used for that purpose; and if so, whether he does not consider it advisable, in the interest of the wool industry, to allow sulphur in small quantities, when intended for dipping purposes, to be carried at the same low tariff as sulphur in large quantities and intended for mining purposes is carried?

The reply to the first part of the question is in the affirmative, and in regard to the second part of the question, the answer is that it will receive consideration.

asked the Minister of Commerce and Industries whether it is a fact that the Government leased to the Natal Creamery, at Mooi River, the Volksrust State Creamery for a number of years; and if so, in view of the fact that the Natal Creamery imported last year to Mooi River foreign butter in bulk which they re-packed and distributed to the public as the produce of South Africa, what precaution the Government proposes to take to prevent the Natal Creamery as lessees of the Volksrust State Creamery from bringing in future imported butter to Volksrust and distributing it from the State Creamery to the public as South African-made fresh butter?

I would be glad if my hon. friend would allow this question to stand over.

asked the Minister of the Interior, whether in view of the large number of native labourers who went to the mines from the Transkei and the spread of tubercular disease amongst them, the Government would consider the advisability of making arrangements for the Tuberculosis Commission to hold a sitting at some convenient locality in the Transkei, such as Butterworth?

replied: I am advised by the Tuberculosis Commission that they will visit the Transkei in due course, and also some of the native districts in the Province proper, such as King William’s Town or Victoria East. A further announcement on the subject will be made by the Tuberculosis Commission.

asked the Prime Minister, whether his attention had been drawn to the report that the Premier of New South Wales had authorised the Agent-General for that Colony to expend £1,000 in providing 50,000 meals for sufferers from the coal strike; and, if so, whether the Government were prepared to assist in a similar manner?

replied: My attention was drawn to the report appearing in the press. This Government is not prepared to make a similar donation. (Hear, hear.)

asked the Minister of the Interior whether, in view of the rumours now current regarding the existence of plague in Durban, he would make a statement concerning the outbreak and also state the number of cases reported to date respectively amongst the European and Asiatic populations?

replied: Since the outbreak of plague in Durban in January last, twenty-four isolated cases of the disease have occurred, distributed as follows: One European, eleven natives, and 12 Indians. The most stringent measures have been adopted with a view to stamping out the disease, and, in my opinion, there is no need whatever for alarm, as the authorities have the outbreak well in hand. The last case reported occurred on the 26th March. I am all the happier to make this statement, because I am informed that alarming rumours are being circulated, which are entirely unjustified. (Hear, hear.)

May I ask, in view of the statement made by the hon. Minister, whether he will withdraw the Public Health Bill? (Laughter.)

said that the hon. member was not in order.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether the Railway Board has expressed in writing any opinion as to (a) the alleged superiority of the railway shops working on the piece-work system, and (b) the suggestion that piecework should be extended to shops in which it does not at present obtain; (2) if so, whether he will lay on the table of the House a copy of such expression of opinion, and a statement whether the opinion is unanimous or not, and, if the answer to the first question is in the negative, whether he will request the Board to draft minutes on these two subjects and will lay copies of such minutes on the table of the House; and (3) whether, in view of the serious consequences involved and the ultimate responsibility of Parliament, he will postpone taking action in regard to the suggested introduction of piece-work until Parliament has been supplied with full information and has had sufficient time to express, if necessary, its opinion on this subject?

(a) and (b) is in the negative; therefore there is nothing to lay on the table of the House; (2) it is not my intention to do so; (3) I have no comment to make.

asked the Minister of Lands: (1) Whether his attention has been called to a circular that has been circulated among the natives on the Witwatersrand by the Alexandra Townships Company, Ltd., offering freehold land for sale to natives and coloured people only; (2) whether he considers it in the best interests of South Africa that a permanent native population should become established on the Witwatersrand in close proximity to a large White population; and (3) what steps the Government propose to take to deal with the situation that has arisen?

replied: I beg to invite the attention of the hon. member to a reply given to the hon. member for Jeppe on February 28 last, to which I have nothing to add. The Alexandra. Township was surveyed in 1905 prior to the passing of the Townships Act, Transvaal, and the Government therefore has no legal right to interfere.

said that that was not an answer to the question.

That’s a matter of opinion.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether it is the intention of the Government this session to bring in a Bill providing for the consolidation of the Patent Laws of the various Provinces of the Union?

replied: The question of the consolidation of the Patent Laws of the various Provinces is still being considered by a Commission appointed for the purpose, and until this Commission reports to His Excellency the Governor-General, no Bill to consolidate the said laws can be introduced. I am rather anxious to have the Bill introduced into Parliament this year, but I think hon. members will agree with me that it does not seem possible.

said: With reference to question No. 22, tasked by the hon. member for Clanwilliam on Tuesday last (whether my attention has been directed to a letter of Mr. J. G. L. Strauss, published in “Ons Land” of the 12th ult. on the subject of scab administration, and whether I will favourably consider the offer made in that letter), I have other portion of the Union. If Mr. Strauss’s contention that the Scab Act and Regulations are detrimental to sheep farming in the North-western Districts cannot be entertained, as it is not substantiated by facts. If, as stated by Mr. Strauss, the dipping of sheep has failed to eradicate scab, then it was undoubtedly due to its not having been carried out in a proper manner or to the kraals and sleeping places of the infected flocks not having been thoroughly cleansed at the time when the first dipping was made. The proposal to suspend the Scab Act and Regulations in the North-western districts cannot be considered. Not only would this be a retrograde step, but it would be unjustified in view of the large sums of money which have already been spent in that area on scab eradication. Further, scab is more prevalent in those districts than in any read the letter referred to. Mr. Strauss’s suggestion were to be carried out, the Government would be obliged, in the interests of the sheep farmers in the remainder of the Union, to prohibit the movement of sheep from the area in which the Act is suspended, to the remainder of the Union, which would entail much loss and hardship to the farmers of that area. It is regretted that the offer made by Mr. Strauss in the last paragraph of his letter cannot be accepted on the conditions laid down by him, but in order to prove the efficacy of dipping the Department will from time to time give demonstrations on such farm or farms as may be considered desirable.

moved for leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Prisons and Reformatories Act, 1911.

seconded.

Leave was granted.

moved that the Bill be read a first time.

seconded.

This was agreed to.

The Bill was read a first time.

Second reading?

Now. (Laughter.)

said that that could not be done, and the hon. member must give notice.

The Bill was set down for the second reading on Wednesday, April 10.

moved for leave to introduce a Bill “to provide for the exclusion of community of property on marriage; and for certain rights of succession to intestate estates in favour of a surviving spouse.”

seconded.

The motion was agreed to. The Bill was read a first time, and set down for second reading on April 17.

moved: That a copy of the schedule of the normal local prices indicating the cost of living in the Transkeian Territories, together with a schedule of prices indicating the comparative cost of living in various parts of the Union, which was drawn up by a committee appointed by a general meeting of Government Civil Servants at Umtata and forwarded to the Prime Minister, be laid on the table of the House. Mr. Schreiner referred to the local allowances which it had been decided to grant to Civil Servants in Pretoria, the Rand, and Bloemfontein, and also to the special allowances in other parts of the country on account of the high cost of living. He did not object to these allowances, but he claimed that the schedule showed that these Civil Servants in the Transkeian Territories at any rate should be included in the second list. The hon. member gave figures to show that the cost of necessaries at Umtata was high before East Coast fever and that it was now higher still. He pointed out that when the figures were shown to the bank managers in Umtata they at once recognised that their employees were entitled to increased pay.

seconded.

laid the papers on the table.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that this House is of opinion that the Government should consider the advisability: (1) Of opening negotiations with the Imperial Government with a view to an arrangement being come to whereby the profits or a portion thereof on the coinage of silver and bronze coins supplied to South Africa by the London Mint will be paid to the Union of South Africa; or (2) of establishing a South African coinage. He said that the House might recollect that some weeks ago he asked a question of the Minister of Finance as to whether his attention had been drawn to the fact that a sum of £210,000 appeared on the Estimates of the Commonwealth of Australia for the current year as revenue expected from coinage and he asked whether there was any reason that he (the Minister) knew of why South Africa should not have a similar source of revenue. In his reply, the Minister indicated that the question was not as simple as it looked and he referred him to what transpired at the Imperial Conference in 1907. He had read up the proceedings of the Conference and also what was the position in Australia which had led up to the satisfactory conclusion of the whole matter at which the Australian Commonwealth seemed to have arrived. At that Conference the Imperial Government offered to any of the Colonies that they might establish their own subsidiary local silver coinage, and acting on this, Australia, by an arrangement with the Imperial Government, was now having her silver and bronze coins minted in London at the Imperial Mint. Australia bought the metal and handed it to the London Mint to be minted, paying a small sum for the service. In order to withdraw the large amount of British silver and copper coins in circulation in Australia the Commonwealth Government withdrew £100,000 worth each year, and the London Mint took over the coins at their face value, the idea being that eventually the whole of the British coins would be withdrawn from circulation. As far as gold coins were concerned the London Mint for a large number of years had three branches in Australia, at which sovereigns and half-sovereigns were minted. He did not think that anyone would wish to substitute anything for the British sovereign, and he understood that the making of gold sovereigns was a prerogative of the British King. Canada established her own mint and coinage in 1906. The question he wished to put to the House was whether it would not pay South Africa to enter into a similar arrangement with the Imperial Government similar to that adopted by Australia. The great consideration in favour of it was the large profit that accrued from the coinage of silver and bronze, but as to gold coins they represented their real value, in that when one carried a sovereign one carried a pound’s worth of gold, and there was no profit from the coinage of gold. On the other hand, silver and bronze coins did not represent their value in metal and they were not legal tender except in small amounts, not exceeding £2 in silver and 5s. in copper. At the present time silver was worth a fraction under 2s. 3d. an ounce, and an ounce of silver was coined into 5s. 6d. worth of coins. A shilling represented 4¾d. worth of silver. The net profits made by the London Mint from 1891 to 1910 showed an annual average of £456,000, but in 1910—which was a particularly good year—the profits totalled one-and-a-half millions. In Australia, the profits 1909-10 amounted to £65,000; in 1910-11 to £186,000, and for 1911-12 the estimated profits were £210,000. In the figures he had given for Australia, however, no allowance was made for making good the wear on the coins. Canada in 1910 made a profit on her silver coinage of 1,000,000 dollars. It was exceedingly difficult to get reliable statistics as to the amount of silver and bronze coins in circulation in South Africa. The silver specie imported in 1910 amounted to £165,000. In 1911 it was approximately the same. If the House would remember the figures he had previously given regarding the cost of making a shilling, they would understand the profit on £165,000 worth of silver coins would amount to £100,000, so that in the last two years the difference between the face value of silver and bronze coins and the actual cost of the metal had been no less than £200,000. That was not the only point. The London Mint report showed that the amount of silver coin issued to South Africa since 1872, after deducting worn coins sent back, was just under £2,000,000. That might or might not be a correct indication of the amount of silver in circulation in South Africa, but that was the best information he could get. The £2,000,000 of silver coinage imported into South Africa since 1872 represented at to-day’s price of silver a profit of £1,200,000. He did not want me House to imagine that this was clear profit; it was the difference between the value of the coins as minted and the face value at which they were circulated. So the House would see that some fairly large figures were involved, which would make out a prima facie case for the very careful consideration of the Government on this question, whether it would be good business on their part to follow the Head of Australia, who had gone very carefully into the question, and had come to an agreement with the Imperial Government. The amount stated was not clear profit. In the first place, the House must not jump to the conclusion that profits like these were perennial. Once the country started making its silver coinage, it was not a question of annual profits in respect of silver coinage for all time, because the House would see that as soon as the time arrived when the currency in silver coins was sufficient and the Imperial coinage had been displaced, the profit would only accrue on the extra amount of coinage that went into circulation each year, so the profit would accrue mainly on the first ten or twenty years of the arrangement. There was the further consideration that if silver went up to 5s. 6d. an ounce there would be no profit at all. He did not think that there was much chance of that, because since 1870, when it stood at 5s. per oz., there had been a very steady drop in the price of silver, until to-day the market value was 2s. 3d. an ounce. Then there was the obligation to redeem the coins at their face value. That need not; trouble us very seriously in respect of silver and bronze coins, because he thought it was more theoretical than likely to present any difficulties in practice, for the reason that once the silver and bronze coinage had been put into circulation, the vast bulk of it was bound to remain in circulation as a matter of convenience. There was a difference as between good times and bad times. When times were good, bronze and silver coins were put into better circulation than in bad times. That was the Australian and English experience; but the bulk of silver and bronze coinage would always be in circulation. When times were bad a certain amount would be redeemed at face value, and when times were good a certain amount more would be placed in circulation. Then there was the obligation of making good the wear and tear on the bronze and silver coinage. That was not heavy in practice. In the ten years, 1901-1910, the amount of silver coinage withdrawn by the London Mint amounted to £419,000, an annual average of about £42,000, and the average loss upon the coins as between their face value and their depreciative value was only eight per cent. So that in practice it had been found by the London Mint that it was not a serious matter to make good the wear and tear on silver coinage. If we entered into an arrangement with the Imperial Government similar to that made by Australia, we would probably be required to make good the wear and tear on gold coinage, because we could not expect the Imperial Government to bear the loss in respect of gold coinage while we were deriving the benefit from the silver coinage. Here, again, his investigations led him to believe that that obligation would not mean much in money. He found that the loss on gold coins withdrawn by the London Mint in the eighteen years ending 1908 amounted to £826,000, 1.3 per cent, of the value of the coins, so the loss only averaged £46,000 per annum upon a coinage which amounted to 100 millions. The Australian experience was that the loss was so small as to be practically negligible. Another point on the contra side, as to whether this would pay South Africa, was the inconvenience that some anticipated if coinage were introduced that had only a South African currency. That was a very serious disadvantage, and we might as well face it; but so long as the gold coins had an Imperial value, as Australian gold coins had, and there was no reason why South Africa should not make a similar arrangement, he did not think that the inconvenience in respect of silver and bronze coins would be considerable. It would be practically the same thing as had occurred in the circulation of Kruger money, which only circulated in the Union. Hon. members would know how inconvenient it was if such coins were taken oversea. He would point out, however, that South Africa was practically the only large dependency of the British Crown to-day which had not its own silver and bronze coins. Canada, Australia. Empire had theirs. Of course, it would mean a certain amount of inconvenience to people who wanted to take South African coin out of the boundaries of South Africa. India, the West Indies, Hong Kong. Ceylon, and other portions of the British and, perhaps, the banks would prefer the arrangements that existed at the present time. In South Africa there was one complication which the Australian people had not to contend against, and that was the amount of bronze, silver, and gold Kruger coinage that was in circulation. Of course, they were faced with a certain loss when this coinage came ultimately to be redeemed. He had tried, but failed to get statistics which gave the actual amount of this coin in circulation That was a distinct drawback to the situation. They were faced with this obligation, which would have to be met; but if they could carry out the scheme suggested by him they would be better able to meet the obligation. It was a matter of second rate importance whether they had their own mint here, or whether the money was coined in England; Australia had found it best to make an arrangement with the Imperial Government. He thought that a strong prima facie case had been made out for the Government taking this matter into serious consideration. He thought it would be good business for this country to fall into line with Australia in this matter.

seconded the motion.

desired to compliment him on that very excellent statement. The hon. member had quoted figures to show the profits that had been made in England and Australia in silver and bronze coinage. Although not hostile to the idea, he thought the House should very carefully scrutinise the figures, for the reason that he believed that nothing approaching those figures were made in profits from silver and bronze coinage. He would like the House to understand that this was not the first occasion on which the Government’s attention had been drawn to this matter. This question, either of having their own mint or their own currency, was a matter which had not only occupied the attention of this, but other Governments, and those Governments had instituted the fullest inquiries into the matter. He thought that so long ago as 1895 a conference was held at Pretoria, to which all the South African Governments sent representatives, and he thought that the Cape Colony was represented by Sir Lewis Michell, who was well known in this part of the country. Sir Lewis Michell presented the case for the Cape Colony, and the reasons which he then gave still held good that day. From the sentimental point of view it would be very nice if they could have their own mint and their own currency. From the material point of view he did not believe that the profits approached anything like £200,000. He would go so far as to say that if a fifth, even a tenth of those profits would accrue to them he would not have hesitated to recommend to the House, either the establishment of a mint or an arrangement similar to that which existed between Australia and the Imperial Government. It was curious that while these questions were being put to him he found that the High Commissioner in London had revived the matter with the Imperial Government, and only last week he received a letter from Sir Richard Solomon in which he said: “I saw Sir Hartman Just, of the Colonial Office, and he informed me that the Treasury said there was no probability that they would be able to see their way to agree to any arrangement under which they shared with you the profits of bronze and silver coin supplied to you by the Mint, even if you are prepared to accept some liability for the rehabilitation of coins withdrawn from circulation.” Continuing, Sir Richard, said he had been referred to the report which had been furnished the Imperial Conference in 1907 on the same subject.

The hon. member would see that it was quite impossible according to the letter to think of making any arrangement by which the Imperial Mint would allow them to share in the profits of minting silver or bronze coins.

What about Australia?

I am coming to that. Proceeding, the Minister said that the British Government would not share their profits with any other authorities. They were quite willing to allow any Colonies to establish their own mint, and mint their own coinage, but they would not share profits. To make this point quite clear, he referred to what took place at the Conference in London in 1907. There was a memorandum prepared by the British Treasury in 1907 on account of the proposal put forward by Australia. This memorandum stated that claims had been made by several of the Colonies to share in profits of minting bronze and silver coins derived by the British Treasury, but the project had always fallen through on account of the difficulties of accounting to the Colonies their fair share of the profits and their responsibility for rehabilitation of coins withdrawn from circulation. It seemed that the British Government took up the same position in regard to the Union as they took up with regard to Australia. The value of silver coins in circulation from 1891 to 1892 amounted to £88,000, from 1892 to 1895 they amounted to £37,000, from 1896 to 1900 they amounted to £100,000, from 1906 to 1910 they amounted to £50,000. With regard to the second t part, that the Government should take into’ consideration the question of establishing a mint, there would be absolutely no difficulty in getting authority from the British Government for establishing their own coinage. Assuming that they had their own silver and bronze coinage, they could either manufacture it in their own mint in South Africa or do what Australia had done, and ask the Mother Country to mint it with their distinctive marks upon it. Australia must have come to the conclusion that it was better for them to do their minting in England and for the coins to be supplied to the Commonwealth. The other day, when the question was put to him as to whether they intended starting their own mint, he told the House that they had taken some steps, or rather their predecessors some years ago had taken some steps to re-establish a mint at Pretoria, they were advised that the whole of the machinery would have to be replaced. There were no profits from minting gold coins because the minting of gold involved the country in a great loss. What he wanted to assure the House, however, was that they were not hostile to the idea. As he said the other day, he would watch things and would see what would happen in the case of Australia. Another thing which had been pointed out to him was that the people of Australia were beginning to feel that so many silver coins were difficult to take outside Australia, and Australians sometimes had considerable difficulty in getting their silver coins exchanged for gold coins when they wanted to go elsewhere, and that was, of course, a very important consideration. Another consideration of equal, if not greater, importance was that the Government might get hard up and might mint a large number of silver and bronze coins upon which the profit at first was to be enormous. That was a policy which had to be most carefully considered. There was only one other word he wanted to say to his hon. friend, and that was with regard to the Kruger coinage still in existence. It was, as the hon. member had said, very difficult to determine the value of silver Kruger coins still in circulation. For some years past the Transvaal Government had endeavoured to find out the value of these coins and made inquiries from the various banks; and the best estimate was that £150,000 worth of these silver coins was still outstanding. There were no bronze coins outstanding. If they had to establish a silver coinage of their own in South Africa they would have to call in all that silver coinage and redeem it at its face value. Well, he did not think they were prepared to do that.

said that he felt he had achieved his object in bringing that motion forward, although he had not got much practical satisfaction from the hon. Minister of Finance; but the whole of his speech, might he say, had practically gone to confirm all he (Mr. Baxter) had said. He had used the word “profit” with qualifications, and the hon. Minister had used the word in the same sense, but the only difference between the Minister and himself was the amount of the profit which accrued from a silver coinage; and the amount of silver coinage in circulation in South Africa during the past 40 years. The Minister’s figures were at variance with the London Mint’s report, which showed a much bigger circulation of silver in South Africa than the Minister had stated. He felt that he had achieved his object, and with the leave of the House would withdraw his motion.

The motion was accordingly withdrawn.

had the following notice of motion standing to his name: “That this House is of opinion that the practice of allowing Europeans and coloured people to travel together in the same railway carriages should be prohibited, and that, in the general interests of both the white and coloured races in South Africa, immediate provision should be made to enable white people to travel in trains without being brought into personal contact with coloured passengers.” The hon. member said that, in view of the declaration made the previous day by the Hon. the Prime Minister on that matter, he would withdraw the motion. (Hear, hear.)

The motion was accordingly withdrawn.

moved: That the House go into Committee of Ways and Means to consider the following: (1) That for the purpose of consolidating the laws now in force in the several Provinces of the Union which impose taxation on the estates or property of deceased persons or of successions to such property, there shall be charged, levied, and collected, in respect of the estates of persons who die on or after the 1st May, 1912, for the benefit of the Consolidated Revenue Fund of the Union, subject to the exemptions and allowances hereinafter mentioned, and to such other exemptions and rebates and to such conditions as may be laid down in any law passed during the present session of Parliament: (a) a graduated estate duty in respect of the net value of the deceased person’s estate, according to the following scale: Where the net value of the estate does not exceed £500, exempt; exceeds £500, does not exceed £1,000, duty shall be at the rate of ½ per cent.; exceeds £1,000, does not exceed £1,500, 1 per cent.; exceeds £1,500, does not exceed £2,000, 1½ per cent.; exceeds £2,000, does not exceed £3,000, 2 per cent.; exceeds £3,000, does not exceed £4,500 2½ per cent.; exceeds £4,500, does not exceed £6,000, 3 per cent.; exceeds £6,000, does not exceed £7,500, 3½ per cent.; exceeds £7,500, does rot exceed £10,000, 4 per cent.; exceeds £10,000, does not exceed £15,000, 4½ per cent.; exceeds £15,000, does not exceed £20,000, 5 per cent.; exceeds £20,000, does not exceed £25,000, 5½ per cent.; exceeds £25,000, does not exceed £30,000, 6 per cent.; exceeds £30,000, does not exceed £40,000, 6½ per cent.; exceeds £40,000, does not exceed £50,000, 7 per cent.; exceeds £50,000, does not exceed £75,000, 8 per cent.; exceeds £75,000, does not exceed £100,000, 9 per cent.; exceeds £100,000, 10 per cent—subject to the following allowances in respect of estates the net value whereof does not exceed £6,000: (i.) in respect of any portion thereof which accrues to the widow of the deceased, an allowance of £300; (ii.) in respect of any portion thereof which accrues to any minor child of the deceased, an allowance of £150. (b) A graduated settled estate duty in respect of the value of any interest in settled estate (i.e., property which upon the death of the owner becomes subject to a fiduciary, usufructuary, or other limited interest), according to the following scale: Where the ascertained value of the property or interest does not exceed £100, duties shall be at the rate of 1 per cent.; exceeds £100, does not exceed £500, 1½ per cent.; exceeds £500, does not exceed £1,000, 2 per cent.; exceeds £1,000, does not exceed £2,500, 2½ per cent.; exceeds £2,500, does not exceed £5,000, 5 per cent.; exceeds £5,000, does not exceed £7,500, 4½ per cent; exceeds £7,500, does not exceed £10,000, 6 per cent.; exceeds £10,000, does not exceed £15,000, 7 per cent.; exceeds £15,000, does not exceed £20,000, 8 per cent.; exceeds £20,000, does not exceed £25,000, 9 per cent.; exceeds £25,000, 10 per cent, (c) A fixed duty of 5 per cent, in respect of the value of the share capital, debentures, or debenture stock in any company incorporated or registered or carrying on business within the Union, where such capital or stock is held by a deceased person who was domiciled or resident outside the Union at the date of his death. (2) That the foregoing shall be in substitution for all existing duties levied on the estates of or on successions to the property of deceased persons.

seconded the motion.

said that, as his notice indicated, the object was to bring about a consolidation of the various laws at present existing in the Union. He had indicated the other day that he did not expect during the next financial year, assuming that the new tariff became law on May 1, 1912, to get during the first financial period any increase in revenue, but he hoped, what with the aid of windfalls—which he thought were the usual cause of them—and the extension of certain principles which were at present existing in the Transvaal to the whole of the Union, that in course of time that tax would be the means of a considerable aid to the revenue of the country. The essential feature of his proposal was that he sought to establish throughout the Union an Estate Duty, commonly known in England as a Death Duty, instead of a Succession Duty. He did not think it was necessary for him to explain what the essential difference was between the two. Estate Duty was a duty which was imposed on the estate itself, upon the corpus of the estate, and was payable as a debt due by the estate and payable by the executor from the proceeds of the general body of the estate. A succession duty, on the other hand, as hon. members knew, was a duty imposed upon the successors of an estate, and was payable by them when they entered into their succession.

Now, as hon. members knew, to-day they had four different and dissimiliar laws dealing with death duties in South Africa. In the Cape Colony they had a system of succession duties, and a similar system of law prevailed in the Free State and Natal, while in the Transvaal they had what he had described before as a system of estate duties. In the Transvaal the duty was levied upon the corpus of the estate, while in the other three Provinces it was levied upon the successors. Then, not only was the system of death duty different in the four Provinces, but the rates were entirely different. In the Cape Colony the duty started at 3 per cent. and went up as high as 15 per cent., which was three times as high as the succession duties payable in the Free State and Natal. In Natal the duty started at 1 per cent., and so it did in the Free State, and went as high as 5 per cent. In the Transvaal, where they had no succession duty, but a system of estate duties, they commenced at 1¼ per cent. It was a graduated tax, commencing on estates of £2,000 and upwards at 1¼ per cent., and proceeding gradually until it reached a tax of 10 per cent. on estates of, he thought, £220.000 and upwards. It was curious how the revenue derived from these duties varied. In the Transvaal, which was not nearly so rich a country as far as individuals were concerned, because most of their rich men lived oversea—

Sensible people. (A laugh.)

I don’t know. (Hear, hear.) But the curious thing is that in the Transvaal, where the estate duty prevails, we get at the present moment £72,000 a year, whilst the succession duties in the other three Provinces combined only yield £80,000 a year, so that it shows that the Transvaal system is the most prolific system from the Treasury point of view. (A laugh.) That, of course, is a consideration I want to press very strongly upon the House. (Laughter.) Proceeding, he said that it was not necessary for him to remind the House that the system of succession duties was, if he might say so, a rather obsolete system. They would find the system of succession duties in very few countries in the world, at the present day. The tendency of all modern legislation was in the direction of imposing an estate duty, a death duty, and not a succession duty. In England they had this system of estate duty, or death duty, pure and simple, but on top of it they also had a succession duty, or legacy duty, so that in England they had a double duty.</p>

Well, in the Bill which he published some time ago, and in which he indicated what machinery he intended to set up for the purpose of collecting this duty, if it became law, hon. members would see that he proposed to establish a system of estate duty. Therefore, he said, he was acting upon the most modern systems of legislation which they would find elsewhere in the world. Then another principle that he laid down was that he levied the duty not on the gross estate. In some parts of the world the duty was levied on the gross estate, without regard to the deceased person’s debts and liabilities. He thought that was rather unfair and unjust, and he thought that the duty should be levied upon the net value of the estate. Another principle that he laid down vias that he sought to establish a graduated scale. He started the scale very low in the case of estates of small net value, and he gradually turned on the screw—(daughter)—until eventually he met the very rich and fat estates and got a maximum duty of ten per cent. Another important point he would like to mention, was that he proposed to exempt estates under the value of £500 net. That exemption was, he thought, a very liberal one, far higher than most countries of the world allowed. The Transvaal Jaw exempted estates up to £2,000, but when he drafted the Bill some three or four years ago, he was anxious to get the principle established, and in the flight of experience and the working of that Bill, he thought it was wrong to take so high an exemption as £2,000. Hon. members must remember that it was the net estate that he took for taxation purposes. It seemed to him that too many estates would be able to get through the net if they took the exemption at higher than £500. He had circulated a memorandum showing the rates of estate duty in Great Britain and other British Possessions. In very few other countries, hon. members would see, the exemption was taken at as high as £500. He proposed to start the duty at one-half per cent, on estates of £500 and upwards, and then, as he had said, he gradually increased the rate until he reached the scale of ten per cent. in respect of estates of £100,000 and upwards.

He did not think that anybody could take exception to the principle of graduation. He did not propose to levy the three duties at one and the same time on the same estate, but an estate would have to pay either the estate duty, the settled estate duty, or—in the case of a person not domiciled in the Union—the fixed estate duty. Let him explain what his object was in introducing the settled estate duty. People who were familiar with the system which had grown up in South Africa knew that many people entailed their estates either to fiduciary or usufructuary trusts. The right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman), when Prime Minister of the Cape, endeavoured to tackle this question. He (Mr. Hull) had been reading very carefully the reports of the proceedings in the Cape House, and especially had he very carefully studied the report of the Select Committee appointed by the Cape House, and he saw the very sound objections that were raised by expert witnesses It was in order to overcome those difficulties that he had introduced into his proposals this scheme of settled estate duty. That was to say, instead of levying an estate duty on the value of a settled estate, he proposed to levy it only on the value of the fiduciary interest in that property. Supposing a farm worth £10,000 was bequeathed under a will in trust to A, and upon A’s death to B for life, and upon B’s death to X absolutely. This farm might constitute part and parcel of some other estate. They would assume that it formed part of an estate worth £50,000. Then for the purpose of his (Mr. Hull’s) estate duty the executor would pay to the Government duty calculated on the scale of £50,000, that was 7 per cent, on the net value of the estate, including the settled estate. There would be no levy made on A, but upon A’s death, when B stepped into the inheritance, the farm would then be assessed in respect of value to B. Suppose B were 60 years of age, with a life of five years, the estate would be assessed at what it would be worth to B for five years.