for legislation providing for the Direct Popular Veto.

in support of the petition of J. Koonin.

from E. R. A. Green, chief constable.

for legislation providing for the Direct Popular Veto.

from M. J. H. de Jongh, ex-chief constable and messenger.

for legislation prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquor to natives.

from the widow of the late J. A. A. Vatble, in his lifetime carriage examiner, South African Railways.

from J. A. E. Markus, formerly Commissioner of Police, Bloemfontein.

from J. Seddon, late gaoler, Port Alfred.

from J. Conry, late Medical Superintendent, Fort Beaufort Asylum.

as Chairman, brought up the second report of the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants, and Gratuities, appointed by Orders of the House of Assembly, dated the 29th and 30th January, 1912, to which were referred all Minutes recommending special pensions and all applications for pensions, grants, and gratuities not authorised by the Civil Service Regulations ; the committee having power to take evidence and call for papers, and consisting of the Minister of Railways and Harbours, Messrs. Currey, Clayton, Keyter, Tobias Smuts, Whitaker, Runciman, Robinson, and Searle.

Your committee recommend:—The award to the widow of the late H. J. Beukes of a gratuity of £50 ; that the pension awarded to H. W. Milner be increased to £65 per annum ; that breaches be condoned in the service of Johanna Groenewald, teacher; J. J. J. Brownlee, teacher; A. J. van der Merwe, teacher; J. J. Strasheim, teacher ; Gladys F. Robinson, teacher ; E. E. Stockenstrom, teacher ; T. Hamilton, teacher ; and of C. G. D. Gerneke, teacher.

They are unable to recommend that the prayers of the following petitions be entertained: G. A. Martin, J. T. Suter, W. Greenwood, T. Ireland, H. C. Colclough, G. McGillivray, W. H. Whitney, Maria P. McCutcheon, Jessie Sidziya, H. D. Mears, W. Wippenaar, A. Fernandez, Henrietta M. Cullinan, J. Reimer, P. E. E. Leder, F. G. Fraser, M. H. Alves, Anna W. Herbert, D. Keenan, G. G. Mann, M. McDonagh, C. H. Morgan, F. W. G. Rand, Emma R. H. Whitaker, K Baker, Daphne Clowes, W. W. Rodger, T. Tannahill, C. L. Hofmeyr, G. C. Marfarlane, D. F. Strauss. E. Rusch, and D. B. Traill.

Chairman.

Committee Rooms, House of Assembly, 12th March, 1912.

It was resolved that the report be considered in Committee of the Whole House on Friday.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether representations have been made to him that school children, boarding the train in the early morning at Welgelegen Siding to go to Theunissen, do so at great risk for the following reasons, viz.: (a) There is no platform; (b) two trains cross at that time; (c) they have to pass the one train in order to reach their train; and (d) the hour being early it is practically still dark; and (2) whether he is prepared to take the necessary steps to lessen this risk?

said he was informed that no school children travelled from Welgelegen.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he will consider the advisability of: (1) Extending the Port Elizabeth Avontuur Railway from Avontuur to a point near George, connecting it with the South Western Railway; and (2) deviating the line from Kabeljouws River through Ferreira’s township and Jeffrey’s Bay township?

said that with regard to the first part of the question he advised his hon. friend to wait for the Bill which dealt with railway extension. With regard to the second part, he did not think that that was likely to be undertaken very soon.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether his attention has been called to the large and increasing number of whales being caught in South African waters; (2) whether he has any information as to there being a danger of a scarcity of whales in the near future should the present rate of capture continue; and, if not, whether he will take steps to institute an inquiry into the subject?

The question of the protection of whales in South African waters has been receiving the attention of the Union Government. The matter has been referred to the Administrators of the Cape and Natal Provinces for inquiry, and is now the subject of discussion between them.

asked the Minister of Commerce and Industries whether, in view of the fact that a duty of fifteen per cent. is imposed on unmounted precious stones imported into the Union as against twelve per cent, on mounted precious stones imported as of British manufacture, and in view further of the fact that jewellery is classed among items of luxury, the Government will introduce legislation this or the next session doing away with an anomaly which puts a premium upon work done outside the Union to the detriment and handicapping of local industry?

replied that the matter would not be lost sight of when the Customs tariff was being revised.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs when storekeepers and others in Zululand, who are entitled to leases from Government or the Zululand Native Trust, may expect to receive their leases?

said he hoped before very long to lay the papers referring to this matter upon the table of the House.

asked the Minister of Lands whether his attention has been drawn to the necessity of providing in the case of future loans made by Government to companies or private persons for the purpose of carrying out schemes of irrigation, that such companies or private persons shall maintain a guarantee fund in order to protect the interests of persons purchasing ground and water tights from them, in the event of accident to the waterworks ; and whether such provision will be made in such loans in the future?

The provision proposed goes beyond the legitimate powers of interference of Government in the relations of an irrigation and land company or private persons towards their settlers. Such settlers purchasing irrigable lots from a company or private persons do so under definite terms and conditions offered by the company, and incorporated in the deeds of sale of the lots. If it is deemed advisable to grant an irrigation loan to a company or private persons owning riparian land, it is open to Government to make whatever further conditions over and above those required by the Cape Irrigation Act, in order to obtain the best possible security, and such conditions must, in the nature of things, always act as safeguards to the settlers.

asked the Prime Minister: (1) Whether since the Act of Union new conditions of service have been, and are still being, introduced into various departments of the Civil Service ; and (2) whether, when new conditions are introduced into any particular department, the acceptance of such new conditions is rendered compulsory, or whether the Government is prepared to allow Civil Servants the option of carrying out the new conditions, or leaving the service with their rights as to superannuation allowance, gratuity, or pension, fully safeguarded?

The hon. member’s question is not clear, and unless he specifies what conditions of service he refers to, it is not possible to answer it.

asked the Minister of Agriculture whether it is a fact that in the Piet Retief district an Advisory Board exists, advising the Veterinary Department upon applications for the removal of cattle from one farm to another, and even sometimes granting permits for such removals; if so, whether the Government will extend the same privilege to other districts, and allow them to elect Advisory Boards; and if not allowed to elect such Boards, whether he will state the reason for the differential treatment as between district and district where the same condition of things in regard to East Coast Fever obtains?

The Advisory Board in Piet Retief is not elected by the people, but consists of the Magistrate, the Government Veterinary burgeon, and the Field-cornets. I am not prepared to give executive powers to Advisory Boards appointed in the way the hon. member suggested, though I shall always be glad to consider the recommendations of such Boards, should any be forwarded.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs if there are any vacancies in the upper section of post and telegraph assistants ; and, if so, how many, and whether he will consider the desirability of filling these vacancies at an early date, so as to relieve the existing congestion?

The hon. member’s question implies the existence of a state of affairs in the Posts and Telegraphs Department in regard to which, I think, only the Minister and his advisers are qualified to express an opinion. If it appears to be essential in the public interest to fill any vacancies, all necessary steps to that end will be taken.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether: (1) it was the practice on the Lape Government Railways to give double pay to employees working in the shops on public holidays ; (2) whether this practice has now been altered; (3) and, if so, whether notice of such alteration was given in advance to the men concerned; and (4) whether in future, if any such alterations are found to be necessary, such notice will be given?

(1) Yes; on the Cape Government Railways workshop employees when called upon to work on public holidays had the option of taking another day in lieu thereof or of receiving double pay. If they elected to take double pay they forfeited the day’s leave. (2) Yes; this practice has been altered and workshop men called upon to work on public holidays now receive ordinary day’s pay and day in lieu thereof, same as other members of daily paid staff entitled to similar leave, and men in other workshops. (3) Notice of this change was not given to men concerned, but the arrangement was one of precedent, and was not governed by regulation. (4) Men are now being notified of the change, and in future due notice will be given to all concerned of any such alterations.

asked the Prime Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Civil Service Bill during the present session of Parliament?

Yes, it is the intention.

asked the Minister of Finance: (1) Whether expenditure on the erection of a post office in Pilgrim’s Rest has been sanctioned ; and (2) whether, in view of the intended early proclamation of the Graskop Township, the Government intends to sanction the expenditure of further moneys m Pilgrim s Rest on private grounds?

asked the hon. member to let the matter stand over for a few days.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether he is aware that certain young men in the Postal and Tele-graph Department had to wait for six years before receiving their appointment as assistants, and that as a result and according to the scale at present m force m the Department some of them 30 years of age before receiving £200 per annum, some 35 years of age before receiving £250 per annum, and some 45 years of age before receiving £300 per annum; and whether he will look specially into the matter, having regard to the fact that these young men were trained in south Africa?

It is assumed that this question refers to the appointment of certain officers in the Cape Province who were in training as learners at the time retrenchment of staff took place in 1908. The late Government of the Cape Colony did not find it possible to grant permanent appointments to these learners until the beginning of 1910, but kept them on in the latter capacity during the intervening period. Having regard to the serious depression at that time and the urgent need for reducing expenditure, these officers may be said to have been fortunate in that they did not suffer from the retrenchment that overtook so many of their colleagues. I fear it is not practicable for the Union Government to entertain claims for readjustment of position, which claims were not admitted by the relative Governments prior to Union.

asked the Prime Minister whether the Government, will consider the advisability of assisting. Civil Servants, who only know one of the official languages and are anxious to acquire a knowledge of both but who by reason of their small salaries cannot afford the expense, by appointing capable persons in the towns and villages from whom such Civil Servants can receive the desired instruction gratis?

Except in very special circumstances, the Government does not consider such a course necessary.

asked the Minister of Justice whether his attention has been called to proceedings, in the Cape District Licensing Court held at Cape Town on 6th March, and whether he will cause inquiry to be made into the following statements arising out of these proceedings, viz.: (1) That the police reports show the number of convictions for drunkenness amongst the coloured people to have increased from 1,019 in the year 1910 to 1,481 in the year 1911, ah increase of 45 per cent. ; (2) that in spite of this increase, the Licensing Board had granted extension of the hours of sale of intoxicants from 9 to 11 p.m., to over thirty licence holders; (3) that although increased facilities for the sale of intoxicating liquors, had been granted by the Board in thirty-six cases, notice of application for such had been given beforehand in only nine of these cases ; and (4) whether he will inquire whether these proceedings were legal, and if not, whether he will take the necessary steps to vindicate the law?

My attention has been called to the proceedings in the Cape District Licensing Court held at Cape Town on the 6th of March. I have inquired into the matters referred to and find that the number of convictions for drunkenness has increased as stated ; that the Licensing Board did grant extensions of the hours of sale of intoxicants as stated. The Magistrate received written notice on the morning of the session of the Court that application for midnight privileges would be made in respect of all the 36 cases in question. In my opinion the proceedings were quite legal.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) Whether he is aware that there was an outbreak of smallpox in the districts of Barkly East and Dordrecht last year ; (2) whether he is aware that smallpox has again appeared on several farms in the district and in the town of Dordrecht ; and, if so, on how many farms has it appeared ; and (3) what does he intend to do to prevent the spread of the epidemic, and also to prevent its being introduced in future from the native territories?

(1) Between 5th April and 12th October, 1911, seventeen cases of smallpox were reported in the Barkly East Division, two of which occurred in the town of Barkly East. In five cases it is believed that the infection was brought in from the district of Herschel. The district of Barkly East is now clear of the disease. (2) Between the 4th May, 1911, and the present date, 53 cases of smallpox have been reported in the district of Wodehouse, but none in the town of Dordrecht. Outbreaks at present exist at Rondavel, Good Hope Stiemans, and Coetzee’s Kraal, in Wodehouse Division, where since the 14th ultimo altogether 13 cases have occurred. In this case the infection is believed to have been brought from the district of Cofimvaba. (3) Measures have been taken to deal with the outbreaks. The cases have been isolated and all contacts have been vaccinated. Every endeavour is being made to stop the spread of the epidemic and vaccination of the people is being proceeded with as completely as possible—1,964 persons were so treated in Wodehouse during 1911.

asked the Minister of Public Works: (1) Whether he is aware that painters employed by contractors in performing work at the General Post Office, Court House, Turffontein School, and Winchester House, Johannesburg, are being paid at lower rates than the standard rate of wages, namely £5 per week ; (2) whether a fair wage clause has been inserted in the contracts for the work mentioned, and (3) if so, whether he will take immediate steps to enforce such fair wage clause?

(1) All painters are being paid at the standard rate of wages or over. In the case of the Winchester House contract, lime-washers were paid at the rate of 1s. l0½d. per hour, and an improver and two rough brush hands, who do not touch skilled work, are being paid 2s. per hour in connection with the General Post Office contract. I am informed that it is not generally recognised by the members of the Master Builders’ Association that the standard rate of 2s. 1d. per hour is applicable to lime-washers and rough brush hands, and that this question will be considered by the Association at an early date. (2) Yes. (3) My reply to the first part of the question renders any action unnecessary.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether his attention has been called to the report of a Committee of Inspectors, appointed by the Government to investigate certain matters with reference to the East Rand Proprietary Mines, Limited ; (2) whether it does not appear from that report that certain of the directors conspired to have false declarations made of the gold output of that company for many months ; (3) whether such conspiracy is punishable by law ; and, if so, why no prosecution has taken place; and (4) if it is not punishable under existing laws, whether the Government will introduce legislation to make such a conspiracy a punishable offence?

(1) My attention had been directed to the report of the Inspection Committee in reference to the East Rand Proprietary Mines, Limited. (2) The matter is in the hands of the Attorney-General for the Transvaal, who must determine whether a crime is disclosed and should be prosecuted. (3) If such a conspiracy can be proved it is punishable by law.

asked the Minister of Agriculture to state the amount of fines imposed in the districts of Murraysburg, Graaff-Reinet, and Middelburg, respectively, for contravening the scab regulations from November 1, 1911, to February 1, 1912.

The amount of fines imposed for contraventions of the scab regulations from November 1, 1911, to February 1, 1912, in the undermentioned districts is as follows: Murraysburg, nil; Graaff-Reinet, £2; Middelburg, £24 10s.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) Whether he has received a report of an assault committed upon a little girl in Rondebosch in a main road on the Camp Ground, about 2 o’clock in the afternoon of Wednesday, the 6th inst. ; (2) whether he is aware that owing to inadequate police protection in the suburbs there is a very general feeling of uncertainty and apprehension in the district, and that very numerous robberies and assaults have recently taken place in the suburbs ; and (3) what steps he intends to take to mitigate a state of affairs which has been repeatedly brought to his attention?

(1) While deploring the occurrence of the assault I wish to point out that the circumstances are not as stated by the hon. member. The assault did not occur in any main road or any public road at all, but in the private grounds of the Diocesan College. (2) I am not aware that the police protection is inadequate, nor that there is a general feeling of uncertainty and apprehension, nor that numerous robberies and assaults have recently taken place in the suburbs. The crimes reported from the suburbs recently do not exceed the average or normal figures. (3) The number of police in the suburbs has been increased since Union, and is considered adequate at present for the protection of the public. Even with a force of double the strength it would be practically impossible to prevent the occurrence of assaults of this nature.

asked the Minister of Lands: (1) Whether the Government intends to carry out as part of its irrigation policy one or more of the four schemes along the Vaal River submitted in detail by Mr. Strange in his “’Reconnaissance of the Vaal River” ; (2) whether he does not think that the Kromellenboog scheme (above Christiana) will be the most desirable and economical especially in view of the continually increasing drought and the losses caused by gal-lamziekte in that portion of the Union; and (3) whether he will state to the House (a) what the costs of construction will amount to and what the extent of the work will be, (b) the quantity of water likely to be impounded and stored, and (c) the extent of Government and private ground respectively that could thereby be brought under irrigation?

With regard to the irrigation schemes along the Vaal River mentioned in Mr. Strange’s “Reconnaissance of the Vaal River,” the Government is for the present not prepared to carry out any of these, neither is it in a position to state which of the four or any of them should be undertaken in the near future.

asked the Minister of Finance whether it is the intention of the Government to ask Parliament for authority to impose poll tax for the current year on any section of the population of Natal in terms of the Natal Poll Tax Act (1905) Amendment Act, 1911?

The answer is in the negative.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether he is not of opinion that to cause the replies by Ministers to questions to be printed in the Votes and Proceedings will be preferable to the present system under which members have to depend on newspaper reports, and, if so, whether he will make representations in the proper quarter to attain this end?

As hon. members are aware, the English and Dutch Hansards are now being produced under contracts entered into with the two printing firms which publish “The Cape Times” and “Ons Land” newspapers. These two newspapers publish from day to day reports of the proceedings of the House, including the replies to questions by Ministers. From such reports, Hansard will be compiled, but, meanwhile, copies of the newspapers are filed in the House of Assembly Reading Room for the convenience of members, and at the same time a complete set of Hansard slips is kept in the office of the Clerk of the House, and is also available for reference by members. As, under the circumstances, a compliance with the request of the hon. member would entail unnecessary duplication of work, at considerable increase of expenditure, it is not proposed to recommend the suggested change.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs whether, in view of the fact that the staff of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs throughout the Union is reported to be in a state of grave discontent, it is the intention of the Government to publish the report of the Public Service Commission in regard to this department, and, if so, at what date may such publication be expected?

The remaining reports of the Public Service Re-organisation Commission are now in the press, and it is anticipated that they will be available for laying on the table about the end of this month.

moved for leave to introduce a Bill to prohibit the giving of rebates and secret commissions in mercantile transactions.

seconded.

Agreed to.

The Bill was read a first time, and the second reading set down for the 20th inst.

moved for leave to introduce a Bill to repeal and re-enact with amendments the Private Law of the Province of Natal, dated 3rd day of August, 1866, relating to the Natal Bank, now incorporated under the name of The Natal Bank (Limited).

seconded.

Agreed to.

The Bill was read a first time.

moved that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, the members to be appointed under Standing Rule and Order No. 376.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved for leave to introduce a Bill to unify and consolidate the Incorporated Law Societies of South Africa.

seconded.

Agreed to.

The Bill was read a first time.

moved that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, the members to be appointed under Standing Rule and Order No. 376.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved, for leave to introduce a Bill to enable the Gill College Corporation to apply certain income now accruing to the corporation in the creation of bursaries.

seconded.

Agreed to.

The Bill was read a first time.

moved that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee, the members to be appointed under Standing Rule and Order No. 376.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.

moved, that the petitions of H. Whitrall and 243 others, praying for legislation whereby the sale of intoxicants to natives throughout the Union will be prohibited; and from M. H. de Cottorie and 219 others, praying for legislation providing for the Direct Popular Local Veto, (whereby men and women may decide by ballot on the continuance, reduction, or issue of liquor licences, respectively, presented to this House on the 21st February, 1912, be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

moved as an amendment: In line 6, after “1912,” to insert “and the following petitions on the same subjects, viz: from G. Blair and 287 others, and from Florence M. Brookes and 243 others, presented to the House on the 4th instant.”

seconded.

moved as an amendment to the amendment proposed by Colonel Crewe: To add “from the residents of Butterworth, Wynberg, and Aliwal North, presented to the House on the 21st and 29th February, and the 8th instant, respectively.”

seconded.

moved, as a further amendment to the amendment proposed by Colonel Crewe, to add “and from the inhabitants of Port Elizabeth, presented to the House on the 28th and 29th February respectively.”

seconded.

These amendments were agreed to.

The motion, as amended, was as follows: That the petitions of H. Whitrall and 243 others, praying for legislation whereby the sale of intoxicants to natives throughout the Union will be prohibited; and from M. H. de Cottorie and 219 others, praying for legislation providing for the Direct Popular Local Veto, whereby men and women may decide by ballot on the continuance, reduction, or issue of liquor licences, respectively, presented to this House on the 21st February, 1912 ; and the following petitions, on the same subjects, viz.: from G. Blair and 287 others, and from Florence M. Brookes and 243 others, presented to the House on the 4th instant; from the residents of Butter-worth, Wynberg, and Aliwal North, presented to the House on the 21st and 29th February, and the 8th instant, respectively; and from the inhabitants of Port Elizabeth, presented to the House on the 28th and 29th February, respectively, be referred to the Government for consideration.

Agreed to.

moved that the petition from F. A. Smit and four others, attendants of the Pretoria Asylum under the late South African Republic, whose services were dispensed with during the military occupation, praying for consideration of their cases and relief, presented to the House on the 11th April, 1911, be laid upon the table of the House.

seconded.

Agreed to.

stated that the petition was upon the table.

then moved that the petition be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that the petition from J. P. Kruger, formerly a Cape pensioner, whose pension has been stopped owing to his having taken part in the late war, praying for a re-grant of the pension, or for other relief, presented to the House on the 12th April, 1911, be laid upon the table of the House.

seconded.

Agreed to.

stated that the petition was upon the table

then moved that the petition be referred to the Select Committee on Pensions, Grants and Gratuities.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that the following papers be laid upon the table of the House, viz.: (1) The petition to the Postmaster General signed by the residents of Paulpietersburg or Vryheid, or signed jointly by the people of the above two places, in the beginning of 1911, for the changing of the days of arrival and leaving of the Vryheid-Paulpietersburg postcart. (2) The petition to the Postmaster General signed by residents of Paulpietersburg on the same subject in October, 1911 ; and (3) All papers and correspondence in connection with the above.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved for a return showing (1) The number of men enlisted as recruits for the Transvaal Police since 31st May, 1910 ; and (2) The number of such men who have been since discharged (a) on conviction by a Court of Justice on a criminal charge ; (b) on conviction by an officer or board for a disciplinary offence; (c) as being unsuitable.

seconded.

Agreed to.

moved that all instructions issued by Mr. Blenkins, the Commissioner appointed to inquire into the question of high quitrents in Bechuanaland, Griqualand and the North-west, be laid upon the table of the House. He said that when that question was raised last year by the hon. member for Victoria West the Minister said he realised that it was time some inquiry was made into the question, and during the recess he would appoint a Commissioner to go into it. He (the speaker) told his constituents that there would be a full inquiry, and they waited a long time, and a gentleman named Mr. Blenkins was appointed to make an inquiry. But they were very much surprised to hear how limited were the instructions given him. He was only told to go into those cases where people had not had the opportunity of laying their cases before the House. These people were sadly disappointed when they found that that Commission had no power whatever to go into these cases. He said that that was very much to be regretted, and the time had arrived when that question should be gone into. These people now considered that the Minister of Lands had not carried out the promise he had given last year to Parliament. It was now two years since the present Ministry had taken office, and it was considered that sufficient time had elapsed for the Government to come to some definite decision with regard to the matter. It was unfair to the country that the people should be left in that state of suspense. If the present disparity between quitrents there and those in the Transvaal, Orange Free State, and the other parts of the Union were to remain, there would be a great deal of dissatisfaction. He would not like to make any threats, but he was not going to give the Minister any peace until he got a definite reply in regard to that matter.

seconded the motion. A promise had been made by the Government last year, which had not been kept.

admitted that he had promised to make an inquiry, but it had been done on representations concerning quitrents made to him by the hon. members for Bechuanaland and Prieska. He (the Minister) had not, however, been told that inquiries had been repeatedly made before. It appeared to him later that it was a question of high rente rather than of high quitrents; the rents were high owing to competition at public auction. It was not the Government’s intention to give relief to those who had offered too big a price at public auction, and were afterwards sorry for it, nor were they able to disregard the findings of former Commissions at the Cape. However, the Government had thought it best to send a special commissioner to inquire what were the grievances in certain new cases.

said that he had been surprised at what the Minister had stated, if he had understood him correctly. Apparently, all these cases had been before the Minister last year, according to what Hansard reported. They were still awaiting some announcement with regard to the uniform scheme for the Union which the Minister had spoken of on that occasion.

said that the Minister had indeed sent a sort of commission to certain districts, but other districts had been overlooked. He hoped the Minister would reconsider his attitude in this matter, as it was one of the greatest importance.

said that last year when that matter had been brought forward by the right hon. member for Victoria West (Mr. Merriman), the Minister promised that an inquiry would be made into the matter. That question was causing a great deal of dissatisfaction in the country. They had the Minister’s promise, and his (Mr. Becker’s) constituents were very grateful to the right hon. gentleman, and looking forward to the time when the Commission would be appointed It was with a feeling of consternation that he learnt when he got back to Cape Town that this inquiry was not to take place There had, it was true, been Commissions before, but when these Commissions had been appointed they had never looked at the question from the point of view that the country was going to gain by the development of the ground. (Hear, hear.)

said that the answer of the Minister would be a bitter disappointment to the whole country. He hoped that the Minister during the recess would take the trouble to go into the districts concerned, for he was sure that he would find ample cause to have an exhaustive inquiry into this question.

The motion was agreed to.

moved that in the opinion of this House the time has arrived when the Government should take into consideration the advisability of expropriating some of the most important of the railways owned by private companies within the Union. He said it would be noticed that the motion was wider in scope than the one he introduced last year, which referred solely to the most important of the private railways, viz., the New Cape Central line. He had also changed the wording of this motion since it was first tabled, because originally it referred to all private lines. He omitted some of the private railways of minor importance which were built chiefly to serve private interests. He did not want to be considered, in having tabled this motion, as being opposed to that House sanctioning applications for the construction of private lines. It might be asked why he was so persistent in returning to the subject he introduced last year, in face of the unfavourable reply he received from the Minister on that occasion. He had been encouraged to return to this question by a very favourable reply given by the Minister during the recess to a certain deputation that waited upon him, and by further experience during the recess, which had proved to him to what extent those districts served by private railways with high rates were handicapped as in competing with districts which enjoyed the comparatively low rates of the South African Railways. He was more than ever convinced that to-day was an opportune time for the Government to expropriate the most important of the private railways in the Union. He thought when the Minister of Railways introduced his Budget in a few weeks, he would be able to announce a record year. Already enormous reductions had been made in the rates on the South African Railways. The reductions since September, 1908, amounted to £1,400,000, or more, on the Union Railways. He considered it was high time that justice should be done to those districts which for many years had been served by private railways at very high rates, and that they should be allowed to participate in the reductions now made, in order to give effect to section 127 of the Act of Union. He sincerely hoped that to-day the Minister would not give a similar reply to that which he gave last year, when he (Mr. Vintcent) introduced his motion, because there could be no finality in a reply of that nature. He would deal with three lines—the Kowie, the Port Nolloth-O’okiep, and the New Cape Central Railway. With regard to the first, he understood that the Government was considering the advisability of taking it over. He felt there was no need for him to argue the case with regard to the second line, and referred to the reply of the Minister when he was interviewed by a deputation. He then said that he was in favour of the principle, and that it was only a question of the price. So far as the New Cape Central line was concerned, he thought most hon. members would agree that it was the most important private line in the country. He put it to the hon. member for Cape Town Central that if it was a question of purchasing the New Cape Central line or the port Nolloth line, the hon. member, as a sound business man, would support the purchase of the former. He went into details in connection with the New Cape Central line, and argued that it was an improving asset The earnings of 1910 showed an increase of £9,871 on the earnings of 1909, and from what he had heard, the earnings of 1911 would show an increase on the earnings of 1910. He pointed out that in 1910 the earnings were 8s. 8½d. per mile, and the working costs 4s. 5½d. per mile. The earnings totalled £88,993, and after the expenses—he was not including the amount of £1,200 which had been spent on offices in London—had been deducted, it left a balance of £42,754. This would amount to about 3½ per cent, on a capital of a million and a quarter. He went on to refer in detail to the amount of through traffic, and the benefit that had accrued to the South African Railways. The total subsidy granted by the Cape Parliament to the company was £381,203, and in terms of the deed, the total subsidy that was recoverable when the Government exercised their right of the option would be £306,000. Supposing the Government were even called upon to pay the high price of a million and a half for the section of 205 miles, and took into account the subsidy of £306,000, then, on the basis of existing rates, the railway would at once pay 3½ per cent, on the cost price. He could only repeat what he said last session, that the longer the Government delayed expropriation, the higher would be the cost of the line, and in support of that, he proceeded to detail the terms of expropriation. He understood from the Acts that the Government must first necessarily take over the Worcester-Ashton section before it could expropriate any other section. It was competent for the Government to take over the whole section at six months’ notice. With regard to the Worcester-Swellendam section, the terms would be as agreed upon, or as might be settled by arbitration. He alluded to the enormous development that had taken place in the districts through which the line ran. The volume of traffic on the line had increased to an enormous extent, and it was bound to increase just as much in the future. It required no business acumen to come to the conclusion that the greater the earning powers of the line, the longer the Government were taking over the line, the more would have to be paid for that section of the line. He went on to refer to the peculiar position of the New Cape Central line. It was wedged in between the South African Railways at Worcester and Mossel Bay. By April, 1913, the section between Mossel Bay and Port Elizabeth—a distance of about 350 miles—would be completed. He pointed out the anomalous position that there would be when the George to Oudtshoorn line was completed, and different rates prevailed He pointed out that since last session further concessions had been granted to users of the South African Railways, and he alluded to the fact that agriculturists in the district felt that they were severely handicapped. He appealed to the wheat farmers, because undoubtedly the rate that prevailed was a means of hampering these people effectively competing with others in regard to the sale of their gram. Continuing, he said the South-western district was a large one, and in every way capable of development, and worthy of more consideration than had been given it in the past. The total population, which was served directly and indirectly by this railway, was 145,000, of which 75,000 were whites. This number represented about 6 per cent, of the European population of the Union. The district also afforded excellent facilities for closer settlement schemes. He had no hesitation in saying that the South-western districts were more important and offered greater possibilities than perhaps any others that might be mentioned. By taking this line over, it would establish through communication with Port Elizabeth, and that, he thought, was an additional argument why the Government should proceed to expropriate it. In view of the relief which is to be given to the country by the contemplated reduction in railway rates, the Government, in common fairness to all, should make the taking over of the railway a part of that scheme. A further consideration was that with the large profit in sight, accruing from the working of the railways this year, it was a most opportune time to deal with the question. He hoped, on this occasion, to have the practical sympathy of the Minister of Railways, and he could assure the hon. Minister that he would have the support of that House.

In conclusion, he would like to refer to the manner in which the Central Railway had assisted in the development of the districts through which it passed, and he sincerely hoped that when the Minister treated with the company that he would bear favourably in mind the services which it had rendered.

seconded the motion.

said it had been well pointed out by the last speaker that the districts served by the Central Railway carried one-sixth of the white population of the Union, and it would do members good to visit this part of the country. (Cheers.) The people served by the railway had good cause to complain of the high through rates which they had to pay. Of course, he might anticipate the reply that would be made by the Minister of Railways would be that many other parts of the country are still crying out for railways, so he cannot spend money on taking over this line. But such a reply might be repeated to the end of time. (Laughter.) Was this part of the country, he asked, to be handicapped because the Government, many years ago, allowed a private company to build a railway there? That would be a monstrous thing to do. If the company had not built a line, would not the State have done it long before this? He certainly thought they would, and he thought the time had now come to take it over. It was daily becoming more valuable, and with the opening of the Oudtshoorn line it would become more so. There was no doubt but what it would have to be acquired some day and to delay longer would make its acquisition more difficult. A few years ago, when it was not paying, it could have been bought to advantage, and there was no knowing what they might have to pay in the future. The curious part about the matter was that the Government were always improving this railway by building lines to feed it. He hoped this district would be relieved of the heavy rates by the Government doing what it ought to have done many years ago—expropriating it.

said there were two lines which he thought the Government should take over. One was the Kowie, and if the Government were anxious to develop that part of the country which it served they could not do better than buy it out. Nor did he think it would be any loss to the revenue of the country. The district was growing prosperous, and people were now getting into the habit of going to the seaside. It would lead to the development of Port Alfred and the Fish River district. Another line he thought they should acquire was the Port Nolloth section. There were many properties awaiting development and much money had been sunk in Namaqualand, but all efforts had been strangled for the want of railway communication.

There is the railway to the mines.

said while that was true, the rates were so excessive that it was impossible to develop the country. This had been going on year after year until people were losing hope. He thought if this line were taken over it would lead to a rapid development of the country.

hoped they would now get a different answer from the Minister than they obtained last year. The districts through which the New Cape Central Railway ran were splendid, and as soon as the railway was taken over hon. members would be able to use their free tickets to go and see it. The freight charges on that railway were 77 per cent, higher than on the South African Railways. The transport of 100 lb. of guano from Cape Town to Caledon cost 4d., and from Worcester to Swellendam 1s. Similarly high prices were charged for all produce. The Government: pleaded that owing to lack of labour they could not construct railways rapidly, but the New Cape Central Railway already existed, and could be taken over in six months. Ten years after it was in the possession of the Government the districts affected would be in a state of prosperity. That was not the case now, owing: to the high railway freights. He could promise the Government that they would continue to introduce motions in the House until the Minister complied with their request. Meanwhile the cost of purchase would tend to go up, and he trusted therefore that the railway would be taken over within the next six months.

said he would support the motion, although he regretted that the hon. member altered it by deleting the word “all” and substituting “some.” The principle on which he and his colleagues went was that they thought public ownership of utilities preferable to private monopolies. There were many points connected with private ownership which could not, by any means, be calculated to be beneficial to the community. They saw it in countries where the railways were privately owned—trouble with employees, rates were high, etc. It seemed to them that the remarkable anomaly in this country was that although the great bulk of the large trunk lines were in the hands of the Government there were still privately owned lines. They desired the Minister to acquire those lines. They had not forgotten the terrible disaster which occurred a few months ago on a privately owned line (the Kowie Bridge), and were of opinion that had the line been owned by the Government it could never have happened. But the question had to be seriously considered that the price the public were to be asked to pay for the privilege of owning those railways was a fair market valuation and not the price shareholders would ask. They were not blind to the faults and inconveniences of Government owned railways. The working class was not forgetful of the fact that a Government railway could be, and sometimes was, as tyrannous to the men as many a privately owned line ; but they also recognised that the remedy in the one case lay with the workers themselves, whereas in the case of a privately owned line the remedy was not so apparent. He and his colleagues would support the motion of the hon. member. (Hear, hear.)

said he did not think there was any serious objection to the motion proposed by the hon. member for Roodepoort, because it imply committed the House to the opinion that it was desirable that the Government should take this subject into consideration The question, however, was a much larger one than he thought had been realised by some of the hon. members who spoke. There were very large financial considerations involved. He would like to inform the House of the fact that there were not only privately owned lines in the Cape Province but in other Provinces also, not ably Natal, where, however, the objections to many privately owned lines were ameliorated very much by the fact that the original proposals involved the management of the railways being in the hands of the Administration of Natal. He did not consider, judging from experience he had had, that it was desirable that there should be two systems of railway administration in the country. There were now some 8,000 miles of line owned by the Government, and it was very desirable that one system should obtain throughout the whole of the Union and that the general system that was adopted should be applied to all the railways in the Union. It was, of course, impossible, in the present circumstances, to do that, because those railways had been constructed at the expense of private individuals and there were existing rights which the Government could not extinguish without the expenditure of a considerable amount of money. But the chief danger in taking over additional lines was that he did not think the railways of this country would ever be successful until they were altogether free from politics. They had political influence in all the Departments run by the Government–– education, prison administration and railways, as seen by quite recent proceedings in this House, and it should be removed. (Hear, hear.)

said he did not know whether this discussion was altogether very fruitful. If they carried that motion, matters would remain pretty well as they were now. They would simply tell the Government they must consider the advisability of taking over the privately-owned lines. Well, he supposed they were considering it. If he knew anything of the Minister of Railways and Harbours he was always considering it. He must say if the motion went any further in the direction of instructing the Government to take over railways, all he could say was that the discussion that afternoon was the most foolish way of setting about buying railways in the world. There were other ways of getting railways than by paying expensive prices for them, and after a discussion in this House the prices would be excessive. He did not compliment the hon. member on some of his allies at all. (Hear, hear.) Because the (the speaker totally dissociated himself from that view, that it was very desirable indeed to do away with private enterprise in this matter. On the contrary, some of the best railways in the world and the railways that had developed their countries most were private railways, and not Government railways. There were great difficulties in Government railways. One was that they had a huge mass of voters depending on the railways, and those voters, if they had the power, would run the railways for the voters and not for the country. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the day would long be in coming when the English railways would be run by the voters of the country, which would be a poor look-out. They had an example in France lately of the vast waste of public money owing to the taking over by the Government of the privately-owned lines. However, here they had got the railways, and they were a Government institution in this country and the question was whether it would be economical and pay the Government better to buy certain railways or not. He wanted to point out that if they wanted to do anything practical in that matter they had better refer it to the Select Committee on Railways, to inquire into the whole question and to see what could be done. To refer it to the Government might advance it a step, but might also send it to sleep again. In the later Acts, he continued, they had been wiser than in the first ; they could deduct from the price the amount which had been paid, which, he thought, was a great improvement. He thought he must plead guilty, in his anxiety to see private enterprise, of being the first person to adopt the principle of subsidising railways in the country, and he was sorry to say that they had in some cases paid heavily for it. It did have this effect: that certain sections of the country got railways which they would not have had except for that step. They must be very careful about a helter-skelter motion of that sort to buy all these railways, because they would have several little places constructing railways and then insisting upon the Government buying them. They had the notable instance of the Sea Point Railway which had been started by some enthusiasts, and the Government, he thought, took it over. (An HON. MEMBER: No; they got a guarantee.) Then they had the famous Strand Railway—(laughter)—and he was very pleased to see how his hon. friend (Mr. Sauer) had treated those gentlemen the other day who came to see him and wanted to get out of their bargain. He (Mr. Sauer) had, he was glad to see, taken up a firm attitude. He did believe that the N.C.C. Railway did run through a part of the country which he had always considered to be the best part of South Africa—the most capable of supporting a large European population, and where a European population had not to compete with a large native population settled on the ground; which was a very great point. If they took the relative proportion of Europeans and non-Europeans in those districts it showed up the best. About 30 years ago the similarity of that part of the country with the Eastern coast of Spain had been brought to his notice, and he had no hesitation in saying that there was no reason why those south-western districts should not present the same spectacle of amazing fertility, if properly developed. The time was coming when the south-western corner would be the home of a large white population, and he considered the south-western districts the most improvable parts of the Union in the present time. (Hear, hear.)

said he would support the motion. The southwestern districts had been for too long without railways, and had been too badly treated altogether. They had to thank the New Cape Central Railway for such development as there was, though that development was badly handicapped owing to the high tariffs. The south-western districts were entitled to assistance by means of the railways. Robertson, for instance, had often been quoted as an example to farmers, and if the railway were taken over, it would not be long before they were able to speak of those districts with pride. There was a continual demand for reduction of railway tariffs, but those reductions did not apply to the southwest, and until the railway was taken over, those districts would necessarily compare badly with other parts of the Union. When the question was discussed last year, the Minister said it would cost a million of money to take it over. For the Worcester-Swellendam line the company could ask any price, but for the Swellendam to Mossel Bay line they could not demand more than the actual cost price. He would venture to offer a word of advice. In his district a line was being constructed from Caledon to Keikoedie, and that would have to be extended to Swellendam, and with that line the Minister could bring pressure to bear upon the company in order to come to an agreement. By the construction of the line, Swellendam became 40 miles nearer to Cape Town, and it was not necessary in dealing with the company to be too humble.

moved as an amendment to omit all the words after “that,” and to substitute “The question of the advisability of expropriating railways owned by private companies within the Union be referred to the Select Committee on Railways and Harbours, for inquiry and report.” He said he sympathised with the hon. member for Riversdale (Mr. Vintcent), because he had in his own electoral district a little railway where the rates were very high. There was no doubt that the district through which the New Cape Central Railway passed was one of the most fertile parts of the country, and there was no part of South Africa which as had been said, was better able to carry a large European population than that part of the country. He knew from experience that the rates were outrageous.

seconded the amendment.

said that, before the Minister replied, he would suggest to the hon. member for Riversdale that he should accept the amendment just moved, because he thought it would have a tendency to act in the direction in which he desired that the Government should act. If the resolution were referred to the Select Committee for consideration and report this House at a later stage would have an opportunity of dealing with all the evidence which had been so admirably brought forward by the hon. member for Riversdale. He (Sir T. Smartt) had had some connection with the voting of moneys for the Riversdale-Mossel Bay line and Mossel Bay extension to George. The reason why the House then agreed to the expenditure of money in connection with a private company was the view that this line would eventually become a portion of a through line from Cape Town on one side to East London on the other. (Hear, hear.) The House agreed to the extension from Riversdale to Mossel Bay and from Mossel Bay to Oudtshoorn and from Oudtshoorn to Klipplaat, leaving one portion remaining, from Klipplaat to Somerset East, to make this a through line. He also hoped the Railway Committee would go into the question of the condition of the Kowie line at the present moment. There was no doubt that great developments had taken place in that district, and it would be nothing short of a calamity if, through the company being unable to cope with putting that line into proper order, those districts got a great set-back. Sir Thomas also mentioned the Barkly Bridge-Alexandria line, which was originally proposed as portion of the through line through the districts of Peddie and East London. In taking over these railways, he went on to say, they must recognise that they were not going to pay for them any more than their value, and so long as these companies working the lines had not been able to make any great profit out of them, all this must be taken into consideration in regard to the price which the Government should pay for them. Considerable negotiations had taken place in the past between the Cape Government and the company in regard to the purchase of the New Cape Central line, but he believed that the main point upon which difficulties centred was the fact that the Government on the one side considered that the company on the other were asking more than a fair and marketable value of the line which they were prepared to dispose of. He hoped it would not be laid down as the opinion of that House that further private railway construction should not take place in this country. He believed that a great service had in the past been rendered by these private lines in regard to the development of districts which would otherwise have had to wait a considerable time for a State railway.

said he trusted that the Railway Committee, if this amendment were carried, would bear in mind one important thing, and that was that the amount of capital which he could raise in this country for the construction of railways or the purchase of railways was limited. (Hear, hear.) He hoped the House would not run away with the notion that it had an unlimited amount of money at its disposal to buy or build railways.

They had areas that were not being tapped at the present time, and the question was which of these would be tapped first. It was a question of saying, with the means at his disposal, which of these areas he should tap. The rates at present in force were a burden on the people represented by the hon. member for Riversdale, but he would point out that they were paying lower rates than would have been the case if the ox-wagon were used. They derived advantages from the railway even though it was in the hands of a private company. The essential point to be remembered was that railways must be built if the country was to be developed. Let the Minister keep to the parts of the country that had no railway at the present time. He pointed out that there were large areas that remained uncultivated for the reason that farmers had no means of getting their produce to market.

said that the hon. member for Fort Beaufort gave little encouragement to people who might build private railways. He did not say that they should hand over the construction of railways to private companies, but if they were going to take over these lines on the profits being made at the time—just when railways began to pay—it was a very small inducement to these people to build railways. He pointed out the inconsistency of the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central in objecting to the proposal that this particular line should be taken over by the State. He rather indicated that they should not consider a proposition of this sort until the whole railway programme of South Africa had been completed. It would be years and years before they reached a point when they would not require any further railways. He thought it unjust that those living in the districts represented by the hon. member for Riversdale should have to pay higher railway rates than people living in other parts of the country. He hoped that the Select Committee would go into this matter very carefully. He would ask the Minister, in the course of his reply, to give the House some information with regard to the Port Nolloth line. Was there any possibility of it being taken over, and had any negotiations taken place? He had strong reasons for believing that the mineral development of that part of the country was hampered by the fact that the line was in the hands of a private company, and that people, who otherwise might be enterprising and go in for development, were afraid of the position.

heartily supported the motion. It was Dot sufficient to say that those districts were already provided with railways, for they should remember that the high tariffs on the S.A.R. were, in accordance with the Constitution, being continually lowered, and that it would therefore be unfair to the population of the south-western districts, who had given to South Africa so admirable an example in matters of irrigation and farming, that they should be obliged to continue to pay high tariffs.

said that while he would vote for the motion with both hands, he hoped that the Minister would not take over private lines unless there was an urgent necessity for them to be taken over. Those districts must be helped first which did not as yet have a line, although he would not vote against that motion.

pointed out that there were still enormous territories without railways, and where enormous freights were charged for transport by ox-wagon. He thought that all portions of the country should be treated with equal justice, and that it would be unfair for the Government to spend millions of money on districts which already possessed railway lines whilst there were other districts which had none at all. He left the matter with confidence in the handsef the Government.

said that in some instances, where there was a short section of private line held by a company wedged between lines held by the State, it was desirable the State should buy those lines, because the mere private ownership of a short line interfered with the whole of the rates. That was why he supported the amendment that this matter should be referred to the Railway Committee for consideration. It was a very involved and difficult question, and one that required careful consideration, and, he added, that there were a number of lines in similar circumstances that were worthy of consideration. There was that section of line between Worcester and Mossel Bay. There were sections that had been subsidised by the State, and in order to deal with these a great deal of investigation would be necessary In conclusion, he thought the best course to adopt would be to refer the matter to the Railway Committee for consideration.

supported the amendment. The population of Swellendam and other south-western districts had themselves asked for the construction of the New Cape Central Railway, and when they did that they also approved of the high tariffs. Even with the high tariffs, the districts were better off than those other districts which had no railways at all. No sooner was a railway built than there was at once a demand for a reduction of tariffs, which increased the difficulty in obtaining railways in those districts which had none. A freight of 1s. 3d. per 100 lb. was not so very much, seeing that for transport by ox-wagon they were obliged to pay more. By sending the matter to the Select Committee, attention would be drawn to those districts which had no railway.

said he was gratified to hear that the railway service was not so black as it had been painted by the Labour party some time ago. Now they were advocating State railways in preference to private lines, which would put more of these unfortunate fellows into the same undesirable position as those of whose grievances they heard so much about. (Laughter.) It only showed what a deal of humbug they had listened to. Continuing, he said nothing would be pleasanter for him to say “yes” to the many edputations that waited on him, or to satisfy the hon. member who moved the motion now before the House. Nothing, he thought, was better for a country than to build railways on a liberal scale. But even the Union Government, with its finances and its facilities to borrow at reasonable rates, had a limit to its financial capacity, and if the Government granted all the requests made for new railways the country would, before very long, suffer from a severe financial crisis. He had estimated that if all the applications made recently had been granted a sum of between £15,000,000 and £20,000,000 would have been involved. He could not conceive any Parliament granting such a large sum in one session. Even if they did borrow it at a reasonable rate they could not spend it in an economic manner, and then they would upset the labour market, and before long they would find that a very wrong thing had been done. When he first came into Parliament people then were very anxious to build railways, and like them to-day many forgot that the time would come when the interest would have to be paid. They had built railways which for a long time to come would not pay the interest on cost. All the Government could do, and should do, was to build those that were necessary, and from time to time satisfy the urgent railway requirements of the country. (Cheers.) They did not want to go on at high speed for a time and then stop, as had been done on previous occasions. There were 550 miles of private railways in the country which, if they took Over, would involve a very large sum, and if these lines were taken over it would mean so much less money for the further construction of new lines. He did not wish to dispute for a moment that the South-Western districts were of the best portions of the country, and he was prepared to admit high rates were being paid. He also knew property in these districts had doubled and in some cases quadrupled in value. And while the rates were high over the short distance of the line they had to remember that when they came on to the main line they were carried at a low rate. They would further benefit by the contemplated reduced rates. He might say that if the Government wanted to take over the lines they would very much hesitate to do so after what had been said that afternoon in the House, and if the resolution was carried it would mean that they would have to pay from 20 to 50 per cent. more for the lines. By passing the resolution it would not induce him to take any action, but would rather have the contrary effect. It had been suggested that this matter should be referred to the Select Committee on Railways. He doubted himself, with all due deference to what had been held on the point, whether it was competent to move a resolution such as had been moved. It seemed to him they were playing with words when they said “consider the advisability.” Either they meant by it that they should put pressure on the Government or else that it was a mere pious opinion. The resolution now moved was that all private lines should be referred to a Railway Committee. It seemed to him that there was no room for the Minister and there was no room for the Government. If this House was going to take it out of the Government’s hands and say itself what lines were to be built there was an end to Ministerial responsibility. What was going to happen? Whenever a member wanted a railway he had only to come down to the House and say it should be sent to the Select Committee on Railways. No self-respecting Government could put up with a position of that sort. On that committee they would have a number of gentlemen who were interested, not personally but through their constituents, in the railway, and the result would be that they would have a committee which had already expressed an opinion on the subject, dealing with the question of future lines; and, of course, they would have, as regarded certain lines, a recommendation. But what recommendation could they have from that committee? They could not get a recommendation that expenditure should be incurred, or that a particular line should be built. Mr. Speaker would then say that they exceeded their authority.

There is a means of doing it.

Exactly. We are now told there is a means of doing it—of getting round the South Africa Act and the constitutional means of getting railways, and the hon. member says he is going to put pressure on the Government by means of a Select Committee, and there is an end to Ministerial responsibility. Proceeding, he said it meant that Parliament was going to take over the business and say what lines of railway were to be built. If a Select Committee sitting upstairs was going to say what railways were to be built then their credit would not last very long. He must say he was surprised that such a proposal should have been made, and hoped that after what he had said his hon. friend would see that in the interests of the country it would never do to hand over the matter of the construction of the railways to a Select Committee. Now, he wanted to say, with regard to this particular line, he admitted it went through a very productive and very useful part of the country, and a country that, since it had that line, had developed enormously, and a country that was still capable of further development. But he would say this, notwithstanding the comparatively high rates paid on that line, it was much better off with that line than without it. (Hear, hear.) And he would further say that at the present moment there were parte of the country which would be very glad indeed to pay the same rates if they could only get a railway. (Hear, hear.) They had not the cheap rates all over the Union system ; they had special rates over branch lines. (Hear, hear.) Every time a man knocked at his door and asked him to take them off he refused. They always cried out for railways, but did not want to pay rates. They had special rates, too, on Union lines, and in some cases they had had more than on the special branch lines—they had had special rates in the Free State recently —higher than the branch line rates. But it all came back to this, that they had only a certain sum of money to expend on railways, and they had to think and see how that could be best spent. The Government must take into consideration the needs of the country, where new lines should be built, the extent of them, the labour question, the financial question, and various other matters—all those were present in determining what lines should be built and what money should be expended in connection with the further construction of lines. The responsibility rested with the Government, and if they took away that responsibility and handed it over to a Select Committee consisting largely of people wanting lines, they would find very soon that the railways which now pay and which only paid because of the high rates and because they were managed economically, would leave them with a large deficiency, instead of bringing in a profit ; and if that came about they would have to say good-bye to further construction of railways. So it was all very well to talk to-day of large surpluses. They were urged by the people in the North, and he sympathised with them, to reduce the rates on the railway. It was the intention to do so. (Hear, hear.) He knew very well—he had been Railway Commissioner when the railway revenue was buoyant, and he also had been Commissioner when, instead of having a buoyant surplus, they were left with a big deficit. The hon. member for Fort Beaufort (Sir Thos. Smartt) had been a Railway Commissioner during that period also, and knew the troubles and anxieties they were confronted with and the expedients they had to adopt to keep the railways going. It was only by practising the strictest economy that they managed to keep the railways in a paying position. There had been pressure in Parliament, and out of Parliament, to obtain concessions, in themselves small, but in the aggregate amounting to a great deal. If once they destroyed the responsibility of the Government in the administration of the railways, and were heedless of the cost, they would soon be found not discussing the question of building further railways, but how they should meet a serious deficit Whilst sympathising with his hon. friend—(laughter)—he urged that the present was not the time to negotiate the purchase of these private lines. The first attention must be given to districts that had no railways at all—(Ministerial cheers)—especially those parts where a railway would materially assist development. He would point out that this railway was managed by a private company It was run on the most economical lines. It had a high tariff; it did not give those facilities in respect of which hon. members were clamant. In short, the South-western Railway was managed on business lines; yet it had never paid a dividend to its shareholders. In what position would he be if he took over that line with reduced rates? Was the House going to compel him by resolution to take over a railway which on present figures would be a loss? He hoped not. Rather let them go to other parts, where they could promote development. (Hear, hear.) He could not deal with that line alone. It was not the only private line. On the Namaqualand Railway much higher rates prevailed, and there was this difference, that if they took over that line they could make it pay. One or two other branch lines could also be made to pay, if taken over. When the question of taking over private lines came on, he thought he would be disposed to take over those which were paying. (Cheers.) He trusted that the House would not accept the resolution. By leaving the matter in the hands of the Select Committee, the responsibility of the Government would be destroyed the spirit of the South Africa Act would be violated and a principle would be introduced which would produce unfortunate, if not disastrous, results to the country. In these circumstances, he trusted his hon. friend would not press his motion. When the time came, the matter would receive full consideration. Yes, he thought it very much better now they had a Government system that all these lines should in time be brought in. He mentioned that he had received deputation after deputation from towns about three miles from a railway, who wished him to pull up the rails and deviate the line to these towns. (Laughter.) He had refused, and he hoped that so long as he was in his present position he would continue to refuse, and that only those railways would be built that were in the best interests of the country. (Cheers.)

withdrew his amendment.

expressed disappointment at the reply given by the Minister, but added that he thoroughly understood the position. Before very long the position would be such as to justify the Minister in giving further serious consideration to his proposal. He wished to withdraw his motion. (Laughter and cheers.)

With leave of the House, the motion was withdrawn.

moved that the petition from G. P. Malan and 74 others, European lepers, of Robben Island, praying for relief, presented to the House on the 19th inst., be referred to the Government for consideration. He said he thought it a matter of urgent importance and one that should be brought before the House. It was no political question, but one of compassion. The lepers on Robben Island asked for relief in their present unfortunate position. The subject had been before Parliament for quite a considerable time. Committees had sat and done what they could, but the matter had not advanced at all. He would not go into the question as to whether the disease was contagious or not. The point was: what could they do to ameliorate the condition of these people? They had good food ; within the limits of the island they had their liberty; some even could earn a little money; they were, in fact, spoon-fed. Yet they were not content. That was because they were shut up on Robben Island, completely cut off from the world. Their isolation was quite complete. Because of the sea trip their relatives could only with difficulty, if ever, visit them. Then the weather was severe. In winter they experienced extreme cold, which they felt the more on account of their affliction. In the summer the temperature was very variable. Another complaint was that there was no ground which they could cultivate. Many of them were farmers, and thus felt this disability the more. The ground was unfertile and no water was obtainable. From dawn to dusk they had nothing to occupy their minds. What was the objection to transferring these people to the mainland? He could not understand it. The expense was not a ground of objection. The objection was raised that It was impossible to isolate them effectively on, the mainland. He failed to see an this any argument. If a leper escaped he would be recaptured before he had infected any people. How deplorable it was that these people should have to sit on a rock the whole day gazing at their father-land.

seconded.

said the matter was a serious one, and he regretted that some hon. members were so indifferent about it. He entirely failed to see why the lepers should not be removed to the mainland. They already had institutions of that kind in Bloemfontein and Pretoria, and the removal of the patients would not cost very much. They could send the lunatics to Robben Island. He trusted the Government would not consider money overmuch, and that they would give a favourable ear to the request.

said he had gone to Robben Island on Saturday, and he thought that every hon. member should visit the place. The first prayer of these unfortunate people was that they wished to get back to the mainland. Their arguments were perfectly sound, and one complaint was that aged relatives were unable to visit the island. He pointed out that at periods during the winter season the island was cut off from communication with the mainland. The island was really a large sand hill, where the water was brak. Their conditions were such that he, if he had a way, would put these people on the best piece of land in South Africa. Segregate them, if necessary—he did not say it was not—but bring them to the mainland. These people objected to being sent to a place where there were criminals and lunatics. He thought that it was a matter worthy of serious consideration.

said that the lepers ought to be removed. So long as he had been a member of Parliament this question had been cropping up. All the Commissions had recommended the removal of the lepers, the latter stating that the sea air doubled their sufferings. Sir Pieter Faure, when the was a Minister, had stated that every member should point out a place in his district for lepers, but no place could be found. Now they had entered Union, and in the other Provinces the lepers lived on the land and were happy, and he thought the sufferers from Robben Island should also be removed to the mainland. They should not spare expense if they could alleviate the sufferings of those people. It was difficult to visit the sick owing to the sea journey. Some of those poor people had already spent twenty years on the island, and had not been able to do anything during the whole of that time. He knew only too well what enforced idleness meant, and he hoped that would be the last petition for the removal of the lepers.

said he rose to move an amendment, to add at the end “with a recommendation that a Commission of Inquiry be appointed.” During last session (he continued) a similar motion to that now before the House was discussed, and the Minister of the Interior then intimated that he was calling in the services of Dr. Turner to report on the whole matter, and everybody thought that something was going to he done. The Hon. the Minister, however, had later on stated that he had not been able to secure the attendance of the expert in question. The Minister said he had been advised that the best thing to do was to remove the white lepers to the mainland. This advice the Government had not followed, owing to the expense involved. He (the hon. member) maintained it was just as possible to segregate the lepers on the mainland as it was on Robben Island. There, they knew the climatic conditions were not favourable to the disease, and the segregation on the island affected their lives, causing them to die untimely. Then there was the inefficient water supply, and the arid nature of the soil, all of which were just causes for the complaints made from time to time. He considered it was unsatisfactory to the lepers themselves that this question should be brought up from year to year, because the state of uncertainty as to whether they would be transferred to the mainland or not, unsettled their minds. He hoped the hon. member for Beaufort West would accept the amendment.

seconded the amendment.

said he was sorry he could not support the idea of appointing another Commission of Inquiry. He found that the investigations of the Commissions which had been appointed had done no good, for, in spite of them, the lepers were still on the island. So why have another Commission? He thought it was the bounden duty of every member of Parliament to visit the island and see the condition of the lepers on it. It was a most unsuitable spot for them—barren, sandy, and unfertile. It only needed a visit to convince one that the most cruel spot in the whole of South Africa had been selected for the lepers. To make matters worse they had to associate with criminals and lunatics, which made their lot doubly unbearable. Was that a state of affairs that should be allowed? The best spot that could be selected in the whole of the Union should be bought, no matter at what cost, and given to these people. There was a time when the Free State would have been willing to receive the lepers from the Cape Colony and the Transvaal, and a time when the Transvaal would not have been unwilling to receive them. But now it was a Union, and something should be done at once. There was a spot in the Free State where the Government could keep the lepers. They could accommodate any number at Sydenham, outside Bloemfontein. He hoped the Government would see its way to accept the motion and by every means in their power try to make the lives of these people better.

moved the adjournment of the debate until Wednesday, 20th inst.

Agreed to.