from the Municipal Corporation of Grabamstown, praying that the Kowie Railway be taken over.

similar petition from 2,356 inhabitants of Albany and Bathurst.

from residents of Uitenhage, for legislation providing for the Direct Popular Veto.

from J. Koonin, medical practitioner holding a Russian diploma, praying for permission to practise in the Cape Province.

from P. J. van Coller, a pensioner from the General Post Office.

from Pieter D. Swart, wounded during the late war.

from residents of Uitenhage, for legislation prohibiting the sale of intoxicating liquor to natives.

from Henry Goddard, late clerk, Statistical Bureau.

from Jessie Katherine Stevenson, formerly a music teacher in Government schools.

Report of Auditor of Accounts on accounts of the O.F.S. Province for ten months ending 51st March, 1911.

The report was referred to the Select Committee on Public Accounts.

Agreements and Conventions for the exchange of Money Orders with the United States, Austria and Norway.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) Whether he is aware that the accommodation of the post offices at Humansdorp, Uniondale, and Hankey is inadequate to cope with the increased work; (2) if so, whether he will cause the necessary alterations or changes to be made ; and (3) whether, in order to facilitate and expedite the work, he will cause Uniondale to be connected by telephonic communication with the adjoining villages and towns?

(1) The Government is aware that the office accommodation at Humansdorp and Hankey has become inadequate. As regards Uniondale, the present office meets requirements, but the space for the use of the public is somewhat restricted. (2) The matter of securing more suitable offices at Humansdorp and Hankey is under consideration, and steps are being taken to improve the counter space at Uniondale. (3) Uniondale is in telephonic communication with Avontuur. It is not at present practicable to extend such communication to other places.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether, when the repairing shops at Durban and Pietermaritzburg are full, engines and other rolling stock could not berepaired at Ladysmith, where the necessary plant and an efficient staff of skilled artisans are to be found, instead of being sent for 200 miles to Pretoria, thus obviating unnecessary wear and tear ; and (2) if so, whether he will direct this to be done in future?

was understood to say that only minor repairs could be carried out at the workshop in question, and that heavy repairs had to be done elsewhere.

asked the Minister of Public Works what steps he proposes to take to provide proper accommodation in Cape Town for the Magistrates’ Courts?

It is not proposed to make any provision at the present time. The Government is aware that the needs of Cape Town in this respect are pressing, but not more so than many other centres. In the present circumstances of the country, the provision of the large sum of money that would be required for new buildings cannot be made. The necessity for providing better accommodation will not be lost sight of, and when circumstances will admit an amount will be placed on the Estimates to provide it. The existing building was renovated last year, and I am sorry that this is all that can be done for the present.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether he is aware of complaints on certain sections of the South African Railways that goods, which were properly booked, never reached their destination and were lost; (2) whether he is prepared to state the average monthly quantity of goods which during the last ten months have been so lost, and the sum which the Department paid as compensation ; and (3) what, as a rule, ultimately becomes of these goods?

(1) Yes; complaints are received from time to time of loss of goods, but they do not refer exclusively to any particular section. (2) It is difficult to assess average monthly quantity of goods lost, but during ten months ended December last, amount paid in compensation for lost goods averaged £476 per mensem for whole of Union. (3) Every effort is made to trace missing goods, and to connect surplus or excess goods with consignments lost or short delivered. Goods so connected are delivered to consignees. After a reasonable period has elapsed (three or six months, according to nature of goods), the public are notified, through medium of the press, that sale by public auction will take place of surplus and excess goods which cannot be connected with consignments lost or short delivered.

asked the Minister of Lands whether the farms on the Vaal River acquired by the Government from the estate of the late Mr. Turner will be sub-divided into lots and given out as agricultural erven, and, if not, what the Government intends to do with the said farms?

Such portions of the farms riparian to the Vaal River which are irrigable from the Douglas Irrigation Canal will be sub-divided into lots, and given out as agricultural erven. A large part of the remainder of the property will be required for commonage, but there will, it is believed, still remain a considerable area of land on the farms riparian to the Orange River, which will be sub-divided into small farms. The estate is now being carefully surveyed, in order to determine how best to deal with the property.

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) Whether he is prepared to state the amounts of advances paid by purchasers on the tariff prices of trees at the auction sales held by the Forest Department, on the 1st March, 1911, at the different stations in the Humansdorp section of the Zitzikamma forest, and to supply particulars in regard to some of the extreme advances paid for individual stinkwood trees; (2) what does it amount to per cubic foot, as against tariff price per cubic foot ; and (3) what discounts are allowed to purchasers of sections outright?

asked for the question to be postponed.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) Whether his attention has been called to a circular recently issued by the Transvaal Gold Mining Estates to standholders in Pilgrim’s Rest; and (2) whether the Government intend to submit legislation taking such power over the inhabitants of Pilgrim’s Rest out of the hands of a private company?

(1) The answer to the first portion of the question is in the affirmative. (2) In view of the fact that the Government proposes to establish a township on the Government farm Graskop, adjacent to Pilgrim’s Rest, to meet the developments due to the completion of the railway, it is not considered necessary to legislate in regard to the conditions of tenure at Pilgrim’s Rest.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours how many South African Railway employees at Roodepoort have resigned or asked for transfer since the appointment of the present stationmaster ; and what proportion does the number bear to the total number of such employees at Roodepoort?

Three men at Roodepoort have resigned, to proceed to diamond diggings at Bloemhof, and four have asked for transfer since appointment of present stationmaster at Roodepoort. Of the four who asked for transfer, one has since withdrawn his application, and two applied for transfer to suit their own convenience. Eighteen per cent. of total European staff at Roodepoort resigned, and 19 per cent. applied for transfer since appointment of present Stationmaster.

asked the Minister of Finance whether he has taken any steps to re-open the Mint at Pretoria for the service of the Union ; and if so, when will it be opened ; but if not, why not?

The question of re-opening the Pretoria Mint has not been lost sight of by the Government, but the matter is one of considerable difficulty. The technical officers who have examined the existing Mint buildings and machinery report that they are not well adapted for the manufacture of coins according to the present day methods, and that before minting could be resumed it would be necessary to incur considerable capital expenditure. A further difficulty is the question as to whether we should mint our own token coins or follow the example of the Commonwealth of Australia, and ask the Royal Mint in London to manufacture our token currency. In this connection it should also be borne in mind that under the most favourable circumstances the actual profits which may be anticipated from the manufacture of coins are not so certain or substantial as is generally believed. Under all the circumstances, therefore, the Government consider it wise to act with great caution before coming to a final decision.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he is prepared to make a statement or to lay information before the House with reference to the route taken by the railway line between Treurfontein and Zoutpan in the Western Transvaal, especially in view of the rumours referred to by the hon. member for Yeoville (Sir Lionel Phillips), to the effect that the route originally intended to be taken was altered in the interest of certain individuals?

said he would give an answer on Thursday, when the information would be in his possession.

asked the Minister of the Interior whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a measure during this session to regulate the conditions of work in factories and shops and to prevent the employment in such occupations of women and young persons at rates below the level of subsistence?

said that a Bill was in course of preparation, and would be submitted to the parties interested for their views.

asked the Minister of Justice if he will lay on the table all Departmental correspondence in connection with the recent appointment of a field-cornet for Ward No. 4, Stockenstrom Division, Cape Province?

said he would be glad to submit the correspondence—other than confidential—as soon as copies could be made.

asked the Minister of Justice whether he intends, during the present session, to introduce a general measure dealing with “Shop Hlours,” and if not, whether he will do so during next session?

It is not my intention to introduce legislation, as the matter is one which, in the Government’s opinion, should be dealt with by the Provincial Councils.

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) By whom the Court Messenger at Johannesburg is appointed; (2) whether the messenger is remunerated by fees only ; and (3) what these fees amount to annually?

said that the Court Messenger was generally appointed by the Department of Justice on the recommendation of the Magistrate. He was remunerated by fees. His net profit in 1910 was £2,290, and in 1911, £3,240.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1)

Whether he will lay upon the table of the House the report of the Inter-Colonial Conference on Statistics, which sat in January, 1910; (2) whether the Government intends to make provision during the present session for the appointment of a statistician for the Union; and (3) whether the Government intends to take any steps for the improvement of the statistical information supplied to the public in the immediate future?

(1) There will be no objection to laying the report in question on the table of the House ; (2) I am providing on the staff of my Department for a statistical section, whose duty it will be to supervise the preparation and issue of an annual publication containing statistical information of general interest collected from all Departments ; (3) the necessary work will be commenced as soon as the census results are published, as these figures will provide in the main the necessary basis on which to prepare comparative returns in future.

asked the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs: (1) What claim has the newly appointed Postmaster of Smithfield to that appointment ; (2) whether he is conversant with both the official languages ; (3) whether there were no suitable clerks in the Postal and Telegraphic Department of the Orange Free State who, by reason of their long service, were entitled to promotion; and (4) whether he is not of opinion that clerks are discouraged when men from other Provinces, who are not entitled to such appointments and who know only one language, are appointed over them?

(1) The official recently transferred to Smithfield as postmaster was eligible for the position by virtue of his being an officer of the Union Postal Service and having had previous experience as postmaster at various points; (2) yes; (3) the officer selected did not secure promotion or any increase in his emoluments, neither would a Free State officer, if moved to Smithfield, have obtained any advancement in pay or promotion for the reason that the transfer of the late postmaster did not create any vacancy in the class on which he was borne; (4) as the four postal services of the late Colonies are now combined in one service, officers are eligible for transfer to any part of the Union, and the Government must necessarily reserve to itself the right to make such staff changes as it may consider necessary in the public interests.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether the men in the railway workshops at Pretoria are compelled to work under the piecework system?

Yes. The question of piecework is being considered by the Workshops Committee, and the report is in course of preparation.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) How many white employees of the South African Railways are in receipt of less than four shillings per day, less than five shillings per day, and less than six shillings per day respectively ; and (2) whether they receive any other emoluments, and if so, what emoluments?

(1) Number of white men at February, 1912, whose substantive wage is less than 6s. per day: (a) less than 4s. per day, 1,799, of whom 1,011 are adult white labourers, and 613 white employees (other than white labourers) under 21 years of age ; (b) less than 5s. per day, 1,421, of whom 927 are adult white labourers and 283 white employees (other than white labourers) under 21 years of age; (c) less than 6s. per day, 2,108, of whom 770 are adult white labourers and 381 white employees (other than white labourers) under 21 years of age ; (d) total under 6s. per day, 5,328, of whom 2,708 are adult white labourers and 1,277 white employees (other than white labourers) under 21 years of age; (2) the 2,708 white labourers receive no monetary allowances, but, generally speaking, and wherever available, free quarters are provided. Of the 2,620 men remaining, 643 are in receipt of allowances (exclusive of climatic allowances) ranging from 6d. to 4s. per day, 74 are supplied with free food and quarters, 151 with free food and use of rest rooms, and 48 with free food only. Included in the foregoing figures are several caretakers and men in such grades for whom free quarters are provided. The figures do not include 435 white labourers employed departmentally on construction work, but as these men are paid by piecework, it is not possible to classify them according to various rates of pay.

asked the Minister of the Interior: (1) What steps have been taken and will still be taken for the consolidation and classification of the Archives of South Africa; (2) what facilities have persons who are bona fide desirous of obtaining certain data from the Archives and who are not in a position to personally search for such data; (3) whether responsible officers have already been appointed, who will devote themselves exclusively as a lifework to putting the Archives into order ; and, if not, why not ; (4) whether it is a fact that many journals and other documents relating to different periods are missing and what steps are being taken to restore the gaps so created; and (5) whether the Government will order that the work of publication, undertaken by the late Archivist (the late Rev. Mr. Leibbrandt shall be continued ; and if so, whether he will give instructions that in such publications the ipsissima verba of the original documents shall be preserved for posterity?

(1) The Archives of South Africa are at present housed in the various Provincial capitals, and if by consolidation the honourable member means taking them to some central place, he will understand that that will involve very delicate questions with which the Government has in nowise made any attempt to deal. The Archives are at present being registered and catalogued, and it is hoped in future to prosecute this work more vigorously than has been done hitherto. (2) Both in Cape Town and Pretoria the services of the custodians are available for the assistance of bona fide inquirers. (3) The question of strengthening the existing staffs is under consideration. (4) It is undoubtedly true that the Archives are incomplete in certain respects, but steps are taken whenever opportunity offers to recover missing documents and to obtain others which, although not at any time included in the Archives, are yet of historical interest to South Africa. Quite recently, through the good offices of Dr. Theal, a most valuable collection of letters of Sir Benjamin D’Urban and copies of the missing journal of De Mist have been acquired for the Archives. (5) Two volumes dealing with the Archives of the Cape Province have recently been passed through the press and will be published very shortly. It is the intention of the Government, as far as funds permit, to continue this work and issue volumes from time to time in the future. The question whether the ipsissima verba of the originals should be published is one which must naturally depend largely on the interest and importance of the subject matter dealt with, and that question will be left to the decision of experts.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours: (1) Whether the Government intend to take in hand this year the lowering of the Jeppe Railway; (2) whether any negotiations have taken place on this subject between the Government and the Johannesburg Municipality ; and (3) if so, whether he will lay all papers relative to such negotiations on the table of the House?

The estimates for the lowering of the Jeppe Railway have been prepared. With regard to the second question, No ; but negotiations will possibly be opened with the Johannesburg Municipality at an early date.

Regarding the third question, this question falls to the ground seeing that no negotiations have taken place between the Government and the Municipality ; and it is not considered that any good purpose would be served by placing the papers on the table of the House at this stage.

asked the Minister of Railways and Harbours whether he will lay upon the table of the House all papers in connection with the retrenchment of Mr. John Mitchell, formerly on the staff of the High Commissioner in London?

There are no papers dealing exclusively with the retrenchment of Mr. John Mitchell, other than the departmental file on which the calculation of the gratuity due to him was made. As the intention of the question is, I presume, to elicit the reasons for the retrenchment of Mr. Mitchell, the following particulars will give the required information. The staff of the High Commissioner’s Office in London was formed by the amalgamation of the staffs of the several Agencies-General in existence at Union. The result was that at the 31st May the High Commissioner found himself with two consulting engineers, although the work of his department only justified one such assistant. The two officers in question were Mr. H. G. Humby, formerly of the Natal Agency, and Sir. J. Mitchell, of the Cape Agency. Their emoluments and service compared as follows: Mr. Humby: Salary, £1,200 per annum. Pensionable service from 1901. On retrenchment would be entitled to six months’ notice or pay in lieu, and an addition of five years to actual service, giving roughly a pension of £300 per annum. Mr. Mitchell; Salary, £700 per annum. Pensionable service from 1906. On retrenchment was entitled to addition of one-third of service, which gave him six years’ service, in respect of which only a gratuity of six months’ salary could be claimed. Other things being equal, it was obviously in the interests of economy that, of the two officers, Mr. Mitchell should be retrenched.

Might I ask if I heard him say distinctly that he would not lay any of the papers on the table?

There are no papers.

You have retrenched without asking the High Commissioner

asked the Minister of Justice: (1) How many times the Appellate Court sat at Cape Town ; (2) is it the case that notwithstanding the provisions of section 109 of the South Africa Act, the Appellate Court has only sat once in the Province of Natal; (3) is the Government aware of the inconvenience and loss caused to suitors by the non-observance of the provisions of the section referred to; and (4) is it the case that no arrangements have been made for fixed visits of the Appellate Court, and that in consequence suitors have been greatly inconvenienced?

(1) Since Union the Appellate Court has sat in Cape Town on 60 days. (2) The Appellate Court has only sat once in the Province of Natal since Union. (3 and 4)) No arrangements have been made for fixed visits of the Appellate Court to any particular Province in the Union, except to Bloemfontein, which is, of course, the seat of the Court, as such is not contemplated by the South Africa Act. The Government is not aware of any inconvenience and loss to suitors other than necessarily arises through the Appellate Division not sitting at the centre where the cause of action has arisen.

asked the Minister of Native Affairs: (1) Whether he is aware that holders of surveyed allotments in the Tsomo and Idutywa districts, who have paid up all moneys due for survey, etc., have not yet received title deeds for the same ; and (2) whether he will expedite the issue of these title deeds?

(1) The issue of a certain number of title deeds to surveyed allotments in those districts has been held over mainly on account of a change in the form of title, necessitated by the provisions of Act No. 2 of 1911. (2) The issue of these title deeds is being expedited as much as possible, extra clerical assistance having been obtained to cope with the work

asked the Minister of Agriculture: (1) What is the number of white men employed in the Forestry Department who are in receipt of (a) 1s. per day; (b) between 1s. and 1s. 6d. per day; (c) between 1s. 6d. and 2s. per day; (d) between 2s. and 2s. 6d. per day; (e) between 2s. 6d. and 3s. per day; (f) between 3s. and 3s. 6d. per day; (g) between 3s. 6d. and 4s. per day; (h) between 4s. and 5s. per day ; and what is the nature of the work performed by each grade ; (2) what is the number of coloured men employed at similar rates of pay and in the same gradations as are mentioned in paragraph (1) hereof, and what is the nature of the work performed by each grade ; (3) what is the number of Asiatics so employed ; and (4) what is the number of Kafirs employed in similar grades as above and what is the nature of the work in each grade?

replied that it would take some time to obtain the information, and therefore he would be glad if the question could stand over.

asked the Minister of Mines: (1) What is the cause of the delay in publishing the report of the Miners’ Phthisis Commission ; and (2) when will the Bill dealing with compensation to miners suffering from this disease be published?

(1) The report of the Miners’ Phthisis Commission is being printed and translated with the utmost despatch. (2) The draft Bill will be published at the earliest possible date after the report of the Commission has been laid on the table.

said the question was: What was the cause of the delay?

The exigencies of printing and publishing.

referring to a previous question, asked the Minister of the Interior what was his authority for stating that the matter of shop hours was under the control of the Provincial Council?

That matter has been dealt with.

referring to the question asked by Mr. Duncan of the Minister of Mines, said the Minister stated that a Factory Act was in course of preparation, and would be submitted to the persons concerned.

Hon. members cannot revert to questions already dealt with.

moved for a return of all sums borrowed by School Boards throughout the Union from private sources, including over-drafts at banks and the rate of interest being paid on the same.

seconded.

said that it seemed to him a serious matter that this request should be brought before the Union Parliament, when it was entirely a Provincial matter. Under the South Africa Act that matter was referred to the Provinces and he must say he strongly objected to any tendency to induce the Union or that Parliament to interfere with a matter which properly belonged to the jurisdiction of the Provinces. He was sorry that the matter had been brought forward at the present time, and he thought it would lead to a feeling of suspicion and unrest amongst the Provincial authorities. He would, therefore, move the adjournment of the debate.

seconded.

said that he did not think that the House should interfere with matters which belonged entirely to the Provinces. Those returns ought to be asked for from the Provincial Council. He thought that the House ought to be very careful before it accepted a motion of that kind, which might be interpreted as an encroachment of the rights of the Provincial Council.

said that the only justification for the motion was that the moneys were provided for by that House, and he knew that School Boards had to pay high rates of interest––– up to 6 per cent.—and that had come out of the pockets of the taxpayers. He would, however, accept what the Minister of Finance said, and withdraw the motion.

The motion to adjourn and the original motion were accordingly withdrawn.

moved:

That in the opinion of this House: (1) The widening of the field of employment for the white population is essential to the well-being of this Union; (2) the continued importation of alien native labourers from territories beyond its borders is undesirable, in that it tends to narrow the field of white employment ; and (3) a commencement should at once be made to curtail such importation by prohibiting the entry into the Union of natives recruited in territories situated north of the 22nd degree of south latitude. The hon. member, who was somewhat inaudible at the outset, said that the hon. member for Liesbeek (Mr. Long) was so anxious that they (the Labour party) should be comprehensive in their views, but when they were, the right hon. leader of the Opposition told them that they were wasting the time of the House. He would like to make a little personal explanation to hon. members opposite, and that was, that when he had occasion to speak a few words about the great gold-mining industry of the Rand, the legend was freely trotted out that he was inspired by vindictive motives. Of course, it was nothing of the sort. He thought that hon. members would see that they desired to discuss that question as nearly as possible and as purely as possible on its merits; and it was so profoundly an important question in their view that, whether the motion was negatived that session, or suffered the same fate as it did last session, and found its way lower and lower down upon the order paper—he was afraid that they must ask hon. members to contemplate the certainty that that motion, or some similar motion, would be brought forward again and again, until the ideas contained in the motion would be popular to the country. Last year they had explained what they meant by the “extension of the field of white labour,” and that, in the interests of South Africa, other occupations—the whole field of industry—should be opened to white men, and that white men should take part in all grades of occupation. He showed that the tendencies under the present condition of our laws were entirely the other way.

No, no.

May I ask the right hon. gentleman to restrain himself for a moment while I endeavour to nut forward some facts which us may possibly find support my statement? Proceeding, Mr. Creswell said he showed that there was a continual tendency for the white man to be hedged out of his occupation, and the native, under our present artificial conditions established by law, was replacing the white man. The hon. member spoke of the change which had taken place in the underground work in the mines, where one white man was now employed with natives in place of three or four formerly, owing to the increased skill of the native assistant. He quoted from the conclusions of the Indigency Commission, and urged that the facts showed that the road along which we were going would not lead to the establishment of that great white nation about which hon. members were so fond of letting themselves go. He would take first a matter which had come under their notice recently, the preliminary report on the Census. There they saw a considerable increase of the total white population, but let them look at the tendency in the two oldest Provinces of the Union, the largest Province, the Cape, and also Natal. There they found a very trifling addition in all to the white population of these two provinces, and, comparing the figures with those of 1904, they found that, taking the bread-winners, the male adults, the men over 21 years of age, after they had made allowances for the reduction of the military forces, and other circumstances, a very great decrease in the total number of white bread-winners in those Provinces. There was a fact which it would be criminal for them to close their eyes to. It would be said that there was a great increase in the Orange Free State and the Transvaal. The figures he had quoted showed that in the Cape Province and Natal the tide had set and that the overmastering tendency showed that the white population in these Provinces was not on the increase, but was really on the wane. Looking at the Witwatersrand industry, they had to remember that during this period it had been a period of struggle. They had been living on labour etimulants —first the Chinese labour stimulant and then the black stimulant. The black stimulant consisted not of natives in the Union of South Africa, but of natives of other parts of South Africa outside the borders of the Union. He would like to quote to the House a few figures showing the way in which that stimulus worked, how evanescent its effects were. One outstanding feature of the statistics relating to the great gold industry was that, when they took a time when the pundits were telling them that the industry was coming to a standstill, owing to a shortage of labour, six months after six months and year after year the amount of work done in chose months and the total of the gold output went on steadily increasing. He thought hon. members would agree with him that the total wages income of the white persons who directly and indirectly assisted in the extraction of the gold was a very fair index figure to take for the benefit which the white population was directly and indirectly obtaining from the extraction of gold. Taking the figure of the total white wages in connection with the men working on the Witwatersrand, they found that, after the administration of the Chinese stimulant up to the first part of 1906, the wages fund showed a steady increase until it reached a figure of 6 1/2 millions per annum. There was a certain amount of capital expenditure going on, and in the producing mines the white wages income was showing a steady drop, but in the whole of the mines, for the following two and a half years there was still practically first of all a maintenance of the position, and then a steady drop. Of course, the income of the coloured labourers had also decreased. The Right Hon. the Prime Minister, in turning out the Chinese, acceded to the wishes of those who were in control of the mining industries in pursuance of the pledges he had given. He made arrangements win the Portuguese authorities to get natives, whether inside or outside the territories. The effect of this was that from the clos of the second half to the first half of 1911, the white wages rose to eight millions per annum. These figures did not, however, apply to the actual share in taking out the gold. Already they saw that the increase had stopped, and that the white wage income will go on decreasing while the volume of work goes on increasing. That meant that this increase in the white population which had been noted in this sense would be evanescent, and that the tendencies were still there to make it harder and harder to live by the continual advance of the native. Take the report of the General Manager of Railways, where he states that he had given work to white men that had been formerly done by natives, but he was careful to express an opinion that it has cost £45,000 more than if it had been done by natives, an opinion which, he was glad to say, had been contradicted by the Minister of Railways. He did not care what activities were at stake, they would find there the same danger-signal—that the white man was going to have a very bad time. Surely this was a question that they needed to face. As a matter of fact, when they examined the utterances of the two great—the two principal parties—(a laugh)—of the House, these tendencies were admitted. The Prime Minister, at the Imperial Conference, clearly said that he was very much in favour of supporting immigration to South Africa. He said that he did not want men to be idle on the streets; but the right hon. gentleman’s policy tended to make people idle on the streets. He also had expressed in that House—not only in that House but outside that House—his immense solicitude for these poor men ; these unfortunate men who were often called poor whites. He knew that the right hon. gentleman was absolutely sincere, and that he realised that all was not right, and that the population was not an increasing factor in the country. Then the Unionist party were also believers in the necessity of immigration. They also were conscious that the tendencies were net right, and that they were not for the we fare and the prosperity of South Africa. What was the use of the Minister of the Interior giving all his great brain-power towards a scheme of defence, if they had only one and a half million people in the country? Then this land settlement, what was going to be the ultimate effect of that? The effect of that was to create a large number of small landlords, who would stick to the evil conditions, and would utilise native labour in the same way. He did not want to bore the House—(cries of “Go on”)—but he would like to quote from the report of the Industries Commission a few words, which epitomised the whole matter, viz.: “Owing to the perpetuation of existing conditions, South Africa, at best, will be owned and governed, but not peopled, by a white population.”

He did not see any real desire on either side of the House to grapple with the problem—in fact, there was a strong effort to let that problem alone. He did not wish to chide, but he noticed no facilities given them for the discussion of the matter. They did hear the Government chiding the Opposition for not giving more employment on the mines to white men, the Government forgetting that some of its own supporters were connected with the mines—(hear, hear)—and forgetting that by its policy it was doing its utmost to make it easy for the mines to give employment to as few white men as possible. They found Government advocating land settlement, and talking a great deal about poor whites, but the key to the position it would not touch. It refused to discuss the question of putting a stop to the importation of indentured Labour. The Opposition was eager for land settlement, and screamed for immigration, but it had among its own supporters those who could open the door to immigration better than any others could. (Hear, hear.) If they liked, they could place at the disposal of immigrants a foothold where they could turn their bone and muscle to account. With these two great parties it always was the case of “You go first.” The hon. member for Pretoria East (Sir J. P. Fitzpatrick) had said it was impossible to have white working men coming here as they went to Australia, adding that we wanted nothing but the very best, and that he (Mr. Creswell) understood, was men with some substance. If immigration were to be limited to the latter class, the hon. member would have found that he would have been a very unsuitable immigrant to come to the country at all. He (Mr. Creswell) wished to point out the extraordinary attitude taken up by the two parties over this matter They simply attacked the outworks, but refused to attack the citadel, which was the real position that was to be attacked. Imitating the ostrich, they insisted on hiding their heads in the sand, taking refuge behind mere plausible phrases. The farmers had been wedded to the idea that the native labourer must be under some form of control, which they themselves would not submit to. But under the laws under which this was done, a stronger than they had come and taken away their labour, and the laws which suited farmers in other times had deprived them of the labour at their doors. When the Minister of Native Affairs was questioned on this matter by a newspaper representative in Natal during the recess, he replied that this was due to perfectly explicable economic causes. The whole of the Minister’s attitude was that this state of affairs was due to the mere wish of the employers.

Proceeding, the hon. member said that the whole system of recruiting and draining South Africa of labour depended absolutely on those provisions in the law which made refusal to carry out a contract not a civil but a criminal matter. (Hear, hear.) It made a native, once he had entered into a contract, just as much the property of his employer as any other property. (Hear, hear.) Last session a law was passed making it a criminal offence to offer a labourer more money for his Labour once he had entered into a contract. Continuing, the hon. member said that so long as the great mining companies had the whole power of the law and the police at their backs to enforce their labour contracts, so long would the farming community be at a disadvantage with regard to their labour supply. What was the ordinary procedure which the latter had to adopt? If a farm hand refused to continue to work out his term of employment, the remedy was to sue him in the civil courts. But in the case of the mine owner and the native, the police would be sent for. That system, while it admirably served the purpose of the big companies, acted prejudicially as regards the supply of labour to other industries. The proper course to adopt was to allow natural causes to operate, and if natives were not sufficiently enterprising to seek work at the mines, then let the white man’s labour be employed. By putting the native in a lower footing than the white was precisely the cause why the white man’s labour was at a discount. The point he wanted to make was that the white man’s disabilities were not the result of natural economic causes, but the system by which the native was made a soit of cattle to the mine-owners. He did not deny but what the present system worked in favour of the people with the longest purse, and that the farmer with little or no capital in hand had to take what was left for him. They had heard a great deal about the white wage and unemployment problems, and that what was wanted were habits of thrift and industry ; but he could assure hon. members that the best incentive to work was the opportunity of earning wages. Art schools, he continued, were being established in the large industrial centres, and the Minister of Railways and Harbours would no doubt find employment for some hundreds of those who will have profited by these schools, but with the importation of large numbers of natives from outside, the opportunity of advancement to the rising white population was being denied them. The Hon. the Prime Minister had given the House some illuminating information on this subject from which they learnt that the Government had 4,000 men at a wage of 4s. per day, employed on relief work just to keep them going. Where was the necessity for these relief works in a country where the eternal cry was a lack of labour? He could tell them that as long as they continued to spoon-feed the mining industries so long would the farmers labour under the disadvantage of a deficient labour supply. As on their own theory the mine-owners’ intelligence and their sense of right and wrong was so much greater than that of the miners, their responsibility was the greater. The effect of the policy was that the white miner was more and more relegated to the position of the superviser. Eventually under that cast-iron servile system the miner would find himself where he was when the miners’ strike of 1897 occurred. Before the strike the mines turned out £9,000,000 value of gold every year, and after, in 1911, they turned out 13½ millions, but the number of white miners had remained stationary up to the last six months. In spite of the fact that native labourers had become more available the number of white labourers had hardly increased. This showed how the system was becoming less dependent on the assistance of the white man, and that they were therefore going to get less in the way of wages.

He would like hon. members who came from Natal to consider how the system would affect them. How did they like being hampered and harassed in developing trade along their own internal trade routes by having to allow some of their rightful trade to go to Delagoa Bay in consideration for certain native labour? They did not like that. They thought that as much as possible trade should be developed along their own trade routes. If it suited merchants to go to Delagoa Bay, well and good, but they did not like arriving at the position where they had to pawn their trade for the sake of native labour. Further, were they not always living in this state of uncertainty as to the labour supply? In every Mining Commission the chairman devoted most of his time to this question. They would always be in the same state of uncertainty until this country developed, as every country had developed, on the labour of its own citizens. It would not be out of place to consider this question from the point of view of the natives themselves. The Select Committee of last year showed in a superlative way that it was not conducive to the natives’ own moral or physical welfare. Coming to the question of natives from tropical Africa, he reminded the House that last year he had spoken on the subject. The Native Affairs Department had supplied him with-certain figures giving the numbers of natives imported for the five months of each year. In view of the claim made by the mining authorities that the mortality figures had been reduced it would be as well to add to those figures those of the five months for this year. They were, for the five months ending June 30, 1907: 70 per 1,000; 1908, 63 per 1,000 ; 1909, 68 per 1,000 ; 1910, 65 per 1,000 ; and for the five months ending December 30 last year, 64.8 per 1,000. The figures for the previous years were: 1906, 59.7 per 1,000; 1907, 58.2 per 1,000; 1908, 56 per 1,000: 1909, 52 per 1,000; 1910, 77 per 1,000; 1911, 57 per 1,000. So, however much the Minister of Native Affairs might congratulate himself on the slight improvement during the past few months, there was no material improvement during the years he had mentioned. But even if the mortality figures were as satisfactory as possible, he should still advocate that a stop be put to this importation of natives who died at such a rate. It was a coldblooded infringement of the injunction, “Thou shalt do no murder.” It was deliberate murder, because they had the evidence of mining men that although every precaution had been taken the death-rate had not been lowered.

The Minister of Native Affairs desired to put a stop to it, and he (the speaker) asked the Minister of Native Affairs to go a little further than merely say, “You are killing so many of these people, and I think I will have to stop you.” What he wanted the Minister of Native Affairs to say was this : “This thing has got to stop. You have been going on with it long enough.” There was another deserving group of people—those politicians who were always talking about immigration. He said that if they were sincere in what they said with regard to immigration, they should fight for establishing a condition of affairs which would be the same as other countries where the working-man went. He had shown, he thought to the satisfaction of some hon. members that the farming industry suffered. He had shown that the workingman—the wage earner—suffered. He had shown that mercantile interests suffered. He had shown that the native was sacrificed.

And the mining industry?

Yes, they have always got that stock excuse that they have not got enough. Continuing, he said that it was absurd to say that the Witwatersrand gold industry—one of the most opulent in the world—could not be placed on the same footing with employers of wage earners in other parts of the world, that it must be placed on a special footing, and that special methods must always be adopted to get a supply of cheap and indentured native labour. That was the Moloch. The high priests were always found very near the Chamber of Mines, like the high priests of a declining faith which they were trying to keep alive by the same old methods. They promised splenetic things if the working costs could only be reduced, and threatened awful disaster to the industry if the accuracy of their statements was questioned. What did they hold out? The hon. member for Heidelberg knew that four years ago they were told of the great future if working costs could only be reduced to 16s. a ton. It was pointed out that when that was very near attainment, the mines would ask for other special methods. They were not incorrect prophets, because in the Chamber of Mines the other day it was stated that everything would be all right if working costs were only reduced to 12s. 6d. a ton. They were all accustomed to the old bogey, and he would not go into all the details. The bogey was trotted out so soon as people began to say anything. Some years ago they went on the old lines. They took the number of natives that were working, they took the number of whites, and the amount of wages, and by a simple mathematical formula they arrived at a conclusion, and showed that a white man could not work for such wages. The hon. member for Germiston had made use of the same argument in a speech outside. He would that that hon. gentleman was going to abandon the reserve which he maintained last year, and was going to speak out frankly inside, as he did outside, the House, and, therefore, he would reserve some of his remarks for the purpose of a reply. He ventured to say that he would be supported by the hon. member for Heidelberg when he said that all these arguments were submitted to investigation and cross-examination before the Mining Commission, and that no person could come to any other conclusion than that the arguments were insufficiently founded. That Commission came to the conclusion that there was no reason why this action should not be taken. They did not come to the conclusion that it would result in the closing down of the mines or any other great disaster, but that it would result in the continually increasing employment of white people. He would pass himself. But it could not be said that the hon. member for Heidelberg was actuated by vindictive hatred, while it could not be said that Mr. J. A. Hamilton would come to such conclusions without careful investigation and sifting the evidence before him. Continuing, he said that the mining industry was the most protected industry in the world in the special legislation dealing with the labour arrangements. And the Government went on helping the industry. Perhaps one of the members of the Government might also inform the House why, when the affairs of the East Rand Proprietary Mines became a public scandal, they appointed a Commission, and then withdrew it, and appointed in its stead a Commission of Inspection of an unsatisfactory character? He was bound to express his views that it was time they discarded their false faith—that faith in the absolute necessity of cheap labour on the Rand. If the Government wished to establish the credit of the country, and if they wished to establish the confidence of the investor, which they said would be disturbed—if they (the Government) carried out all those measures they asked then, and took at the same time steps to protect the European investor against the fraud and swindling which goes on day by day in the financial control of the industry, then they would get the desired position. The present position was that the gold mines, to-day, were more speculative investments than ever before. Perhaps he had not put his case as well as might be, but might he appeal to the patriotism of hon. members on pots sides of the House to face this question as it should be faced. He knew that on both sides they had made big sacrifices in the past, but might he appeal to them, that there were sacrifices equally necessary and equally hard to make in peace. He said appeal to them not to follow a course which, if adhered to, would work out to the destruction of their hopes They said that when they took away all the nonsense that was talked about the native labour institutions: that in the main it simply meant that these people were trying to avoid the possibility of work, and if hon. members were really sincere in their desire to secure the future of this country, then they must make up their minds that that future was going to be different from the past of an agricultural aristocracy. They had to open the door to people of their own race in this country. (Hear, hear.)

seconded the motion.

said that the speech just made by the hon. member for Jeppe appeared to be a repetition of the one which he made last year. He had been amongst the number of hon. members who visited the mines last year, and had kept his eyes open, and thought from what he had seen that the mines treated their coloured employees with every consideration, and that the mortality amongst the natives was not entirely to be ascribed to the mine owners. He agreed with a great deal of what the hon. member had said and agreed that much more should be done for white labour, and that more labour colonies should be established, and the children better educated. Not only must the ordinary education be given, but also practical and industrial education but he could not agree to the other part of the motion. He had no objection to the importation cf natives from outside the Union, and if it were absolutely necessary, he was prepared to agree to the importation of Indians and Chinese. (Cries of “No, no.”) As to what the hon. member had said about coloured labour, did he know of the lack of labour on the farms, and how the cry was everywhere for more labour? The farmer himself had to do menial labour because he could not get the necessary labour, and the farmer’s wife had also to do similar work. The whole question of labour was a very serious one for the farmer. As a result of the cry for more labour on the mines, however, the Government had allowed thousands of Chinese to be imported, which he agreed was a mistake, though it would not have been so bad if they had been kept in their right places. They ought not to have been allowed to mix with either whites or coloured persons, but remained below as workmen and nothing eke. The need for labour on the farms was so great that he would have no objection to the importation of coloured labour under certain conditions, from other countries. Now the Government had allowed themselves to be frightened, had sent the Chinese back again, and had promised to provide the mine owners with coloured labour, if not from South Africa, then at any rate from somewhere in Africa. The result was that for the farmers it became harder than ever to get labour. He believed that there was not sufficient coloured labour in South Africa, now that the natives settled down in locations where they lived on wind and water, with the one object of educating their children so that they could afterwards be placed on an equal social footing with the whites. Although he was in favour of giving white men as much work as possible, he saw that it would only injure the farmer if the importation of labour from outside the Union were stopped. As a whole he could not agree to the motion, and would have to vote against it.

said the speech of the hon. member for Edenburg had astonished him. It was only right that another Free Stater should contradict what had been said, and to make it clear that the Orange Free State would do all it could to oppose the importation of Asiatics. The hon. member had stated that owing to the lack of labour, it should be imported from elsewhere, but in South Africa there was more labour than was required; it was only a question of how to get hold of them. He could not agree to the motion of the hon. member for Jeppe, as by its acceptance they would reduce to an even smaller number their existing labour supply. They were already short in Johannesburg, and what was the good of making things worse in that respect?

said that he had been very anxious to line out how the hon. member for Jeppe proposed to solve the question embraced in the first part of his motion. He was sure that that House was as desirous as the hon. member to widen the field of white labour employment. He did not think the hon. member had exactly enlightened them as to how this was to be brought about. One suggestion was to stop the importation of coloured labour into this country. If they did that, however, the question still re mained largely unsolved. The hon. member went further in the opening part of his speech and said that the whole field of industry should be opened to white labour, and he then went further on to say that the tendency was entirely the other way. He (Mr. Wessels) very much doubted whether they were going to solve the question by applying these artificial remedies, and whether it would not be better to allow matters to solve themselves. (Hear, hear.) If they came to the second part of the motion, the question arose, what could they do? If they looked at the thing from a practical and common-sense point of view, it simply came to this, that they would have to introduce legislation to stop the employment of all coloured labour in this country. (A VOICE: “No.”) What industry was there in South Africa to-day that could be carried on with profit, if they did not employ coloured labour? They must first study the various industries they had got in this country. Take the gold mines and the farming industries. He knew the hon. member (Mr. Creswell) held the view that in the mining industry there ought to be more scope for the employment of European labour. He (Mr. Wessels) did not know sufficient of the gold mines to be able to dispute that fact, but from what he did know and what little he had read of the mines on the Rand, there were a certain number that would be able to employ more European labour and work their mines at a profit. But there were low grade mines working on a very small margin of profit, where the increased cost of employing European labour would mean that work would be impossible. After all, it was their duty to see that these people who had put their money in these things should have some fair measure of protection. In looking at the farming industry, they would find that it was not possible to employ European labour. Even with the wages that they paid coloured labour it was a hard matter to make farming pay. What did they find to-day? They found throughout the whole of South Africa an enormous shortage of labour. He would like them to look at this matter from a farmer’s standpoint. They found to-day the farmers going into competition with the mines, and as an immediate result of that, farmers were being worsted in the struggle, for the simple reason that the mines were in a better position to pay more than the farmers. The mines to-day could take from 15,000 to 20,000 more labourers. Supposing that they stopped importation to these mines, then the mines were going to scoop up the labourers, and the farmers were to suffer. Last year they passed a Bill with regard to the recruiting of native labour, and he then said that he knew the effect of that upon the country, because the mines were placing their agents all over South Africa. They found that they were all over the Western Province, where people were largely interested in agriculture, and they were endeavouring to get the labourers there to the Rand. Now, the effect of this was that they were setting one industry against another. It was hardly fair to protect one industry and not protect the other. His hon. friend the Minister of Native Affairs had got the power, and he hoped he would see that recruiting was stopped in certain districts. The position to-day with regard to this native question was a very serious one. Perhaps he was the only one upon that side of the House who would ask whether they should not import labour from other parts.

Chinese?

I don’t say Chinese, but Kafirs from other parts of Africa. Continuing, the hon. member said various industries would be started in the country and, in the struggle which was going on for labour, the farmers would get the worst of it. For these reasons he could not support the motion.

supported the motion, because he believed that it would be good for the Rand and for the Orange Free State. He was learning that what South Africa wanted for its salvation was a large white population —(hear, hear)—first in order to cheapen the cost of living and secondly to serve as a necessary balance against the coloured population. Over and over again they had heard that the chief aim of the country was a large industrial population. Amongst other advantages this would give them a direct and easy market for the farmers produce. How much more was going to be consumed on the Rand by a large white population than by a coloured population. If they wanted to find a market for their products, they must it in a large white population. Their difficulty in South Africa was to find an industry sufficiently stable to support an industrial population, and, in that connection, he would like to make some reference to the industrial report that was submitted to them. If they wanted to save South Africa, then they ought to follow along the lines of establishing industries in South Africa. (Cheers.) He wondered if the Government followed along these lines, and supposing they were to establish, say, a Government tannery, and employed black labour instead of white, what would be the result? In the Rand they had the great national industry of South Africa, and, if other countries were able to work it with white labour, why should they not do so on the Rand. He believed that the industries that they intended to establish would be very largely assisted if they employed a very large white population on the Rand. He would like his friends on the Government side of the House to consider the position for a moment. The fact that natives were brought into the country, taken to the mines, and there made expert workers, not only prevented Europeans from coming to South Africa, but also prevented the young South Africans, whose heritage the position was, from finding occupation on them. (Hear, hear.) He had seen natives up-country driving motor-cars. He knew two natives who owned motorcars costing £700 each, and these cars were run and repaired by natives. He would pit these two natives against any European chauffeur. That was the danger that had to be faced. Every native they made competent was going to force out a young South African who wanted to find work on the mines. Our present policy was calculated completely to overthrow the white population. It was impossible for Europeans to compete against the numbers facing us, and if we allowed them to become competent and push back the white man, there was precious little hope of this becoming other than a black man’s country, and the sooner the Europeans sold out the better. (Cries of “No.”) South African statesmen had told him that in time the mines would be worked out, and that in the meantime we must use what was coming from the mines in order to develop the agricultural and industrial interests, on which we should have to five when the mines were worked out. What would be the result if we followed our present policy? There would be thrown on South Africa a highly skilled native population, which would drive us out of any industrial undertakings that might be in existence then.

There was another aspect of the question he would like his hon. friends on the Government side to consider. They had heard that agriculture was the backbone of the country. Then, why was it that more was not done for the backbone of South Africa? Why was it he, who was an agricultural employer, could not do as they did on the mines? Why was it that the same law was not made for the farmers as for the mines. (Cries of “Why?” and “It is.”) Of course, the farmers could not get labour. He lived on the borders of Basutoland. Twenty-five thousand Basutos were taken through his district to the mines, while he could not get sufficient labour. Let the farmers be put on the same footing as the mines.

You are.

I cannot keep my people from leaving me.

The Masters and Servants’ Act

I am speaking from practical experience, and I have not the least doubt that the whole district which I represent would be able to submit to this House that they are absolutely unable to get the labour they require.

You won’t pay.

We can’t pay the high wages they pay on the Rand. (Opposition cries of “Oh.”) If the facilities to take men to Johannesburg were not so great, I should be able to get labour a little bit cheaper, because there would be no travelling expenses to the Rand to be paid. If the natives are offered railway tickets to the Rand, they will go.

They are going now without the tickets.

Why not leave it open for them to go by themselves?

They go now.

You will see them in train loads with guards. In conclusion, the hon. member said that what the farmers wanted was to be placed on the same footing in regard to labour as the Rand employers were, in order that the farmers might develop their industry. Others should not be allowed to have facilities which the farmers did not enjoy, if thereby the former worked to the detriment of the farmer and to the detriment of South Africa. (Hear, hear.)

considered that the motion was not of the type that the House should be called upon to consider. They must leave such motions alone, and not swamp the country with new laws. On the one hand, it was urged that they must do all sorts of things to encourage white labour, and on the other, that they must spare no effort to stimulate the employment of natives. In such a matter they must leave conditions to adjust themselves. He failed to understand what people wanted. They should give equal rights to whites and coloured persons to go and get work. But he thought it was too much to ask the House to lay down that employers must employ this class or that class. It was of no avail coming into the House with motions that tended to set the poor white against the black man. The best thing they could do for South Africa was to make it pleasant for the white man and for the native to work here. A farmer could not get his work done without coloured labour, and they should do all they could to enable him to retain it. The motion would only arouse a feeling of dissension throughout the country.

reminded the House that last year he had voted against a similar motion. It was only right that he should explain that he had done so far two reasons. The first was that he had a suspicion of the sincerity of the hon. gentleman who introduced the motion. Rightly or wrongly, he had thought that the hon. member was actuated by some feeling against the Transvaal mines, and in that he did not think that he stood alone. Another reason why he reframed from voting for the motion was that at that time the Industries Commission was sitting, and he had hoped that when they had finished the House would receive a guide from their labours on this very important subject. He was now willing to believe that the hon. member for Jeppe was quite in earnest over this matter, although he was bound to think, judging by the speech he made that day, that he had some hostility to the mines. He would move an amendment so that they could get an expression of opinion from the House upon what was really the principal question, namely, what should be the ultimate position of the white peoples of South Africa in relation to the black and coloured races resident in our midst? For his part, he conceived that there was no question of equal importance before South Africa. He believed that in twenty years’ time the question of compulsory bilingual ism would be as dead as the dodo, and that they would have before them the very same question that they were now discussing. Upon the way in which the politicians handled the subject that day would depend the question how the subject would present itself to the people who would come after them in South Africa The hon. member for Roodepoort would bear him out when he said that he (the speaker) had consistently fought for the interests of the white man in Natal, so much so that he had earned the compliment quite recently from the hon. member for Zululand, that he was one of the bitterest opponents of Indian immigration in Natal. He agreed with the hon. member for Jeppe as far as the first part of the motion was concerned. He did not feel confident about expressing an opinion as to the practicability of stopping coloured immigration into South Africa at this particular juncture. Hon. members on the cross-benches would bear in mind that there was a vast difference between the immigration into Natal and the immigration into the Transvaal. The immigrants into Natal unfortunately remained, there, with the result that they had the incubus of over 120,000 Indians permanently resident in their midst. What was the position in regard to the employment of coloured labour? It invariably started with a clamour for local indigenous labour for unskilled employment. It was then invariably followed up by the employment of coloured or black labour for skilled purposes; that had not been frankly and openly avowed in the first instance, but was sub rosa. The third stage was a frank admission for the employment of coloured men as against whites. In Natal they had only got as far as the second stage. If they in Natal were to adopt the attitude of persons resident in the Cape with regard to black and coloured persons, he did not think there would be a billet for a white man in Natal. He could, at this moment, if it were not on the ground of public spirit, as he regarded it, fill his office with Indian clerks who could do the work quite as well as white clerks and at one-half the cost. In Natal they had persistently endeavoured to give the preference to their white brethren rather than employ the coloured man in their midst. Another reason was that the white man was dearer. They found that in Natal, as also here, that people from choice employed coloured persons. There were two reasons, then, why the coloured man was given preference, namely, the question of price, and, secondly, the militating influence against the white man, for which hon. members on the cross-benches were responsible. (Cries of “No, no.”) He referred to the fear which employers of white labour had of strikes and trade combinations. An illustration of this had been brought to his notice quite recently in Natal, where a sugar planter employed coloured Mauritians at £30 per month. When asked why he preferred this labour to that of white, he replied: “They are just as competent as the white man, and they give no trouble.” In this case it was not a question of wages, but the preference arose from the coloured man’s willingness to work and his non-liability to strike. In most cases, however, it was a question of wages on the one hand and a sense of security on the other. What was the remedy for this? Everybody was preaching nowadays that the coloured man must have the same privileges as the white man, but if that was to be so then the white man would go to the wall. The reason why there were such people as poor whites was that they bad been dragged down to the wages of the coloured man. There were some who did not think it a duty to give preference to a white man, and this disposition, he thought, should be counteracted wherever industries were helped by the Government, either by way of importation of labour, bounties, or protection, by insisting that the Government shall demand the employment of a certain number of white men in such industries. He thought one of the most important factors in solving the white labour problem was the establishment of a Wages Board, which should determine a minimum rate of wages, as recommended by a recent Commission ; and when this was brought about he was bold enough to say there would be no question of unemployed white labour. To his mind the great salvation lay in a proper land settlement scheme—(hear, hear) —but not such a measure as had been introduced the other day. If they looked to Australia for the principles on which to establish a scheme they would soon have a population in this country that would do away with the menace which the coloured races presented. In conclusion, he would move as an amendment to the motion that paragraphs 2 and 3 be deleted, as the question how to stop the influx of coloured labour and that of the coloured question generally could no longer be burked.

seconded the amendment.

said that when he heard the introductory part of the speech of the hon. member for Umbilo, he felt inclined to congratulate the member for Jeppe on having secured an adherent. The hon. member opposite, however, had accepted all the sentimental portion of the motion, but had eliminated the only practical proposition before the House. He felt bound to say that the subject undoubtedly was a big question with them in South Africa, and no more important question could be raised. He did not belong to those people who said it was a pity that they should have these discussions. They should not adopt that extreme attitude, he thought, but rather-come forward and discuss the question fairly and squarely. He would like to say to the hon. gentleman who proposed the motion that in regard to the principle that had been enunciated—and he thought that he spoke for his colleagues—he was thoroughly in sympathy with him. It was not a matter about which anybody could have a doubt. It might seem strange that in one of the dominions of the British Empire they should be discussing widening the scope for white labour, but they must remember the circumstances; they felt at the bottom the force of what the hon. member had said, they felt the need, without in the least wishing to do any injustice to the coloured or the native races of the country, they felt the need of strengthening the position of the white man in South Africa. He did not think that anybody who had studied the figures given to them could help feeling deeply impressed by the meaning of those figures. But when it came to the question of carrying it out there came the difficulty of the proposition. It was a matter of enormous difficulty. He made two practical suggestions as a means of beginning the work on the lines before them. He would lay before the House reasons why they should not go to the full length proposed by the hon. member. That white labour should be encouraged he agreed, but he did not take up the position of the hon. member opposite when he said that if they had everything equal between black and white the white man was bound to go to the wall. Any man who had faith in his race—

I did not say anything —

Does the hon. member rise to a point of order?

I would like to make a personal explanation.

The hon. member cannot do that unless the hon. Minister gives way.

rose to a point of order. He asked if one hon. member made a statement which was an incorrect quotation of what another hon. member had said was he not entitled, according to the rules of the House, to explain and so remove misapprehension?

The only occasion upon which an hon. member can interrupt a speaker is upon a point of order. An explanation of what he said is not a point of order. If the Minister gives way on the member rising to explain what he said then the hon. member may explain. He cannot claim it as a point of order. The Minister will proceed.

Perhaps the Minister—

I do wish to say this, that since I have been in Parliament, whenever there was a question of denial and an hon. member wished to explain then it was a point of order. I am sorry that we have been wrong for the last twenty years.

If the hon. member will consult May’s “Parliamentary Practice” he will find that a personal explanation is not a point of order. The Minister will proceed.

said that he had not the least intention of giving a wrong version of what was said. If the hon. member did not use the words, he understood him to say that the white man would go to the wall if all things were equal. Whether he did or did not use those words it would be a sorry day for South Africa if they adopted that sort of policy. He had greater faith in the strength of character of his race. He believed clearly in the maintenance of European supremacy in this country, not because of any race prejudice against the coloured people, although European blood ran in his veins as strongly as in the veins of any other hon. member. He thought, however, that it was in the best interests of the country that they should maintain European supremacy. Experience had shown that they need not fear the result. But if it was expected that the European was going to maintain his supremacy by the imposition of a number of restrictions and by the imposition of a number of differences, then he said that they stood in danger. An hon. member had struck the right chord when he said that the reason why the coloured man was preferred to the white man was because it was found that the coloured man often did the work better. The whole of their trouble in South Africa was that the white man would not work. (Hear, hear.) That was a broad statement to make; but broadly taken there was no doubt they stood in great danger in this country of the white man being superseded by the coloured man on that account. (Hear, hear.) Hon. members on the cross-benches sought the true line when they said that the white men must do the manual work of this country, but they would not do it. (Hear, hear.)

What about the 5,000 men on the railways?

said he was quite aware of them, but he would remind the hon. member that a little while ago white men were frozen out of certain situations by the very men there who insisted on their receiving some particular wage. The position was that as for the average white man, who ought to consider it a matter of pride and dignity to do the manual labour in this country, and who was always preaching the dignity of labour to the black man, the only thing that would save him was to learn the dignity of labour himself. They would never succeed in any country in building up a great people out of a nation of overseers. (Hear, hear.) And if they could get that idea implanted into the white people, then he could see some hope ; but they could not do this by attempting to set up artificial barriers between themselves and the black men. They might succeed for a time. They should remember that they were not in the position of the United States. In this country they did not import these people for their benefit. In America they created for themselves that problem with which they were faced. They created it deliberately. Why? Because there was exactly the same unfortunate spirit in that country that is here now. But in this country they had not done that. They found these people living here when they (the whites) came. They were subjects of the King as well as the whites, and they were also entitled to the consideration of any Government and the people cf South Africa because, let him say again, he was firmly convinced that no artificial arrangement they might make; no artificial restrictions they might impose in favour of the white men, were going to succeed, because, in any country, economics will tell, and the result of economics was that the best men would win. Therefore, the, true ideal in this country was to set before themselves the duty of so strengthening the white man’s position and educating him, as to enable him to compete with all comers. Now let them look at the practical considerations of the situation. The hon. member had dealt with the position existing at the Witwatersrand, but did he realise, while he urged a certain course of action, that if that were to be approved by the House, they (the Government) would not merely have to agree with him, but would have to carry that course out? The hon. member seemed to think that so long as they settled the difficulties of the Witwatersrand, their difficulties in the country were at an end. But what would become of South Africa? Wherever they went in this country they would find the hard work being performed by the black man. It did not affect the mining population only. It affected every merchant and farmer and the whole population in this country. Let them ask farmers, and business men, and merchants, and any employer in this country, whether they could afford to do away with coloured labour. On what terms would the white man work? On whose terms? On the terms of the Trades Unions of this country. (Hear, hear.) He could go a very long way with the hon. member (Mr. Creswell) ; perhaps longer than he thought, in his desire to improve the conditions of the white working man. He agreed with every man having a fair share of the good things of life, and every man having a place in the sun ; but, at the same time, they must not get all the sun. They must not leave the rest entirely in the shade, and he was afraid that human nature with the Labour party was the same as with anybody else, and that if the Labour party were in power the top dog would act like any other top dog. (Hear, hear.) The coloured people were an integral part of their economic situation, and they should not drive them out He knew that the hon. member confined his motion to the importation of black labour ; but the true position was that the hon. member objected altogether to the employment of natives and coloured people in this country. (Cheers.) The hon. member had suggested something specific which his (Mr. Burton’s) Government was prepared to accept in part. He could not at present accept it altogether. The first practical suggestion made by the hon. member in the second part of his motion—the first part he did not think anybody could object to—was that they should stop the continued importation of alien native labour from beyond the borders of the Union.

Curtail, not stop.

I thought that the head as well as the tail had been cut off. (A laugh.) I do not think if the hon. member’s motion were accepted in its entirety there would be much left. The hon. member is quite mistaken. The second part of the motion must mean, I take it, that we should stop this importation. Do I understand the hon. member to mean that he is in favour of continuing the importation of the coloured people from the Portuguese territory? Let me say this—and I want the hon. member to take note of it—that the Government is in agreement with the proposition in the second clause to this extent, that it feels that the European population in South Africa is of such a nature and so urgently required that it should be given an opportunity of development that we have made up our minds to set our faces against any additional importation of alien coloured labour into this country from anywhere. (Hear, hear.) Since the Union I have had applications made to me to import labour from parts of Asia, from Madagascar, from the coast of Africa higher up, from Liberia, and various other places, and I have steadily refused every application, because I consider it to be my duty—and my colleagues are in entire sympathy with that—to stop now what we consider to be the harmful proceeding of simply filling up every lacuna of labour there is in South Africa by alien coloured labour. Proceeding, Mr. Burton said that L this motion meant anything—it spoke of stopping the continued importation—it meant that the Government should now take steps to atop the importation of these natives from Portuguese territory and from elsewhere beyond our borders. He wanted to-say in regard to that, that, much as he disliked it, and he confessed frankly he did dislike it very much, it was reluctantly that one had to accept the situation to acknowledge it as a fact; still it was a fact, that the Government was faced with a situation that had been created, an arrangement which had been made in connection with the stoppage of Chinese labour into this country, an arrangement between the Transvaal Government of the time and the mine owners, which, to his mind, it would be not only unwise, but wrong to attempt to interfere with. Under the existing arrangement he was not prepared to do that, except as far as he would indicate in the motion in its third part.

The hon. member suggested in the third part that, as a practical beginning, they should stop the importation into South, Africa of those alien native labourers who came from north of the 22nd degree of south latitude—the tropical natives. They now numbered something like 24,000. The hon. member had quite frankly argued that they should be stopped on principle, that this importation was a bad thing. He had referred, however, to the high mortality among these tropical natives, and what he (Mr. Burton) was going to say about the Government’s attitude on that matter had to do, not with any question of white and black labour, so much as with the question of mortality amongst native labourers. He regretted to say that there was no doubt the information which the hon. member had given the House was perfectly correct, and there was no doubt that the situation on the Witwatersrand, in connection with the mortality amongst the tropical natives engaged in the mines, was about as serious as it could be. (Hear, hear.) He thought it was time that he, as a responsible member of the Government, should say what he felt, viz., that it was high time the conscience of this country was awakened on this subject—(hear, hear)—because for years past the condition of things—he would not now describe them in the same emphatic language as the hon. member (Mr. Creswell) used—but there had been a state of things which he felt bound to say, speaking with a full sense of responsibility, could only have existed because of a cynical disregard of human life and the instincts of ordinary common humanity. (Hear, hear.) After the last session of Parliament, when this matter was raised there, he took the earliest opportunity he could upon his return to the North to investigate this thing as far as possible and to find out for himself what the facts were. Well, he was shocked. He went down to the Rand and visited as many of the mines as he could in the three or four days he was there, and he found that a state of things which seemed almost incredible was allowed to exist. The figures given by the hon. member as to the mortality ranged from 40, 50, 60, or 70 or thereabouts, but the House would hardly believe that he (Mr. Burton) found in one mine that, out of a large number of these tropical natives employed, the average death-rate per annum per 1,000 was 591—(A VOICE: “Shame,” and sensation)—i.e., practically 40 per cent. Figures like 190, 160, 250, 300 (he might say 300 was not frequent), but figures between 100 and 200 were quite frequent. He had met the Chamber of Mines when he was on the Rand, and had pointed out that unless there was a substantial reduction within a comparatively short time the Government would be forced to use its powers and stop the importation of these natives.

No one knows the figures in their own country!

I am concerned with our own business and our own duty—(hear, hear)—and when the hon. member has heard a little further what I have said about this, he will see that there has been ample scope and ample opportunity given for improvement, and that is the really damning fact of the whole thing. The damning thing is that since this warning has been given, improvement has taken place. Continuing, he said that he had been frank with the Chamber of Mines. Although climatic influences had a great deal to do with that enormous death-rate, still it was possible to improve the conditions, by better attention to details, the better care of these men, more efficient management, and, in fact, by more human kindness—(hear, hear)—and immediately, he must say, steps were taken by the men responsible for the mines in Johannesburg, and the results had been in some cases, in some groups, rather satisfactory, or at all events, fairly satisfactory, and had shown a large reduction. For instance, he might say that in consequence of what had somewhat cynically been described as “putting the screw on” in Juno last, whereas the average death-rate per 1,000 per annum for natives south of latitude 22 was 23, the average rate for those and the tropical natives employed by the “good” mines was 25, so that, as far as they were concerned, the average was not so alarming. On the other hand, there were certain groups in which a state of affairs still existed, such as forced the Government to say that these tropical natives must not be allowed to work in the mines belonging to those. Last year, after the warning had been given, some of the figures were as follows—he was not giving all the figures, but some, to illustrate how bad things were: Goerz and Co., 91, 105, 160, 168, 172 per 1,000; Eckstein and Co., 72, 88, 92, 137, 81, 65, 269, 204, 257 ; J. B. Robinson and Co., 43, 112, 88; General Mining and Finance, 88, 139, 99, 88, 71, 99, and so on. There were other similar figures, but the average was enormous. The Rand Mines: 96, 137, 127, 73, 38, 72, 56, and so on. In the case of the other corporations, as he had pointed out, the death-rate had been brought down very considerably, but in the case of those five the state of affairs was such that the Government had been forced to take up the position that arrangements must be made by which the supply of these tropical natives to those groups must be stopped. He did not refer to people now on contract here, but that supply must be stopped, and unless these arrangements could be so made, he wanted to inform the House that the Government had made up its mind that the importation of these tropical natives must be stopped altogether. All the information at his command, all the information in his office, showed clearly that there was a distinct connection between the high rate of mortality and the management of these mines, of which they had always had reason to complain. The reason appeared to be that in many cases the directors or managers of the companies were at the mercy of the mine managers. He did not want to lose sight of the fact now that in some cases the abnormal rate might be due to accidents or epidemics, or ignore the great improvement which might be effected on the Rand by Sir Almroth Wright. He understood that was hopeful, and they wanted to make any reasonable allowance for that; but at the same time, in spite of that, they found that conditions were as stated, and they intended to act accordingly. There was a smaller matter in connection with the natives who came from the British Nyasaland Protectorate. The death-rate was enormous still, and there was no improvement, and in some recent months it had been worse than before. They had come to the conclusion that, in view of the state of things, and no improvement having been made, they would communicate with the British Government in order to request them to join them in any action they might think fit to stop the importation of these natives.

stated that he wished to refer to an incident earlier in the afternoon during the course of the debate when the honourable member for Durban, Umbilo (Hr. Robinson) had risen to make an explanation, and when Mr. Speaker had ruled that unless the Minister of Native Affairs who was debating gave way the explanation could not be made as a point of order. I desire now to emphasise what I have frequently conveyed to the House that an honourable member is not entitled to rise for the purpose of making an explanation while another honourable member is debating, unless the member who is in possession of the House resumes his seat. I would not have made this explanation but for the fact that some honourable members on my left seem inclined to question my ruling on this point. The ruling I gave was questioned first by the honourable member for Durban (Umbilo), then by the honourable member for Fort Beaufort (Sir Thomas Smartt) and thereafter by the honourable and learned member for Cape Town, Harbour (Sir Henry Juta). I will, therefore, read the passage from May which bears on this point, and which governs the practice of the late Cape House of Assembly and of this House. It is as follows: “The proper time for explanation is at the conclusion of the speech which calls for it ; but it is a common practice for the member desiring to explain, to rise immediately the statement is made to which his explanation is directed, when, if the member in possession of the House gives way and resumes his seat, the explanation is at once received ; but if the member who is speaking declines to give way, the explanation cannot then be offered.”

said that the Minister had quoted him as saying that the white man would go to the wall ; what he said was that the coloured man would go to the wall.

said that he was glad to see that this question now under discussion was not being passed by in the same manner as it was last year. If anyone had any doubt about the serious bearing and effect of the question upon South Africa, after hearing the debate that day would be convinced. The time had come when the men on the land found themselves faced with the same problems as the men on the mines, namely, that both mining and agriculture were based upon coloured labour. Were they going to continue this system of basing the whole fabric of industry upon coloured labour, and if so, how were they to continue it? Were the people now going to say that the principle underlying the industries of South Africa was a wrong one, and if so, what sacrifice were they prepared to make? Continuing, Mr. Duncan said there was nothing in the motion that was incompatible with the fullest freedom for the black man. Hon. members were insisting that preference should be given to the wrote man, and the same was being said in Natal, but that was evidently not what was practised there. (Laughter.) But was the white man, he asked, going to retain his dominance by a policy of preference? Certainly not, he thought. One of the remedies prescribed in order to secure a maintenance of the white man’s status was that of segregation, in which they would put the black man in some corner, and so keep the white man away from him. This, he thought, was a physical and moral impossibility, and it would be useless to attempt it. (An HON. MEMBER: Send them away.) It was very much easier to bring people to a place they wanted to come to than to send them where they did not want to go. They could not have two separate civilisations side by side, with only a thin line such as that of preference separating them. Nor was the solution of the difficulty to be found in the gradual assimilation of the higher race with that of the lower.

The discussion on the motion was adjourned until Wednesday, March 20.

Papers relating to the application of Mr. C. B. Boast to purchase a portion of Drakensberg Location No. 1, Natal ; and papers relating to the Impapala Lands, Eshowe, Zululand.

These were referred to the Select Committee on Native Affairs.

Return showing since the date of Union in each Province: Expenditure on deviations on main lines; and on relaying main lines with heavier rails respecticely ; and details relating to fencing, expenditure, betterment and renewals.

moved:

That the petition from the Mayor and Town Clerk, representing the Municipality of Grahamstown, praving for the amendment of the General Dealers’ and Licences Amendment Act (Cape), 1906, in respect of the granting of licences to general dealers, presented to the House on the 9th February, 1912, be referred to the Government for consideration.

seconded.

Agreed to.