from C. Long, retired Civil Servant.

from W. M. Clift and officers and employees on harbour work, praying that their period of service under the Associated Boating Company be recognised as continuous with their present service for pension purposes.

for legislation providing for the direct popular veto, whereby men and women may decide by ballot on the continuance, reduction, or issue of liquor licences.

Vaccination Regulations (Natal) ; and Return of printing contracts between the Government and private firms between May and August, 1911.

stated that the Bill empowered the Governor-General to make regulations applying some portions of the English Army Act to South Africa, and he hoped those proposed provisions would be attached to the Bill as a schedule. In connection with the clause dealing with the work of the commandos, he thought that the words “so far as possible” might give occasion for unjust punishment. The Governor-General could create an ambulance service in time of war, but nothing was said about an ambulance for manoeuvres and drills. It should be laid down that when men became sick or were wounded during manoeuvres they should be cared for by the State. The public should be strongly encouraged to join the mounted corps, as they could more easily and more quickly be removed from one place to another, and yet could be used as infantry. He did not think the arming of natives was advisable, though he was a friend of the natives in a proper manner. The regulations concerning rifle associations were somewhat weak, and he thought there should be every encouragement given to join, and even that it should be made practically compulsory. Their members should not only be trained at the shooting of targets, but also in collective firing, whilst ammunition should be purchasable at cost price. They must not look too closely on economy in a matter of defence, as a strong army was absolutely necessary. The army must be well trained, and be well provided with ammunition, and unless there was co-operation from both sections of the population success would not be attained.

said that as representing a Cape constituency he wished to make a few remarks, seeing that the Rill introduced the principle of compulsory service in time of peace, which had not hitherto been applied in that Province, though it had existed in the Free State and the Transvaal. Some of his constituents were concerned at the proposed use of the army outside the Union. In his view the term used was clear enough, but others did not think so. The period of training might also be made a little clearer, and that had now been done by the Prime Minister. The ballot system and the £1 tax should be removed from the Bill. He also feared that the classification would give occasion for favouritism, and he was in favour of the training period being definitely fixed. He trusted that men over 45 years would also be allowed to be trained with the rifle associations, and hoped there would be a military review in each district every year. The country people should not be obliged to send their children to the cadet corps. Boys between 13 and 17, living in the country, who could not attend the cadet drills in town, should be provided by the Government with rifles and ammunition, so that they could learn to shoot with the rifle associations. That would place them on an equality with the young people in the towns. He objected to the mention in every Bill of possible expropriation of ground, and thought that in that particular Bill there was too much left to regulations. His constituents, both English and Dutch, agreed that they must do everything to protect their country, and now that most of the difficulties had been removed, and after some amendments had been made, he hoped it would be generally accepted.

said the speech by the Minister of Defence had removed many of their difficulties. He objected still, however, that the Bill did not define how long the training should continue, and he thought that the duty to serve should be general. (Hear, hear.) The £1 system was also wrong, and would press with special severity on the poor. The system would not be needed if universal service were adopted, and a big army was necessary for the defence of a vast country like South Africa. The officers should be chosen by the people. They were usually men of good character, and if that principle were not adopted he feared the Bill would be a failure. He had never heard in a Christian country of cadets being drilled on Sundays. The parent alone had the right to dispose of his children, and must decide where they were to go. Sometimes the cadets were in camp for eight or fourteen days, and were sometimes brought into association with bad boys. Up to his eighteenth year a child belonged to his parents, and after that to the State. The encouragement of rifle associations was excellent, for it had been shown during the war what could be done when men could handle their rifles well. The Boers formerly held military reviews ; they could ride and shoot well, and those things should be encouraged by the giving of prizes. Ammunition should be supplied gratis, and made more easily obtainable from the field-cornets and magistrates. If a man who served his country was wounded, he should receive a pension. He trusted there would be cooperation by both sections of the public.

said he was afraid they were rather apt to be led away by the eulogies that had been passed on the volunteers to think that the country could be safe with volunteers only. Ho thought that the general feeling of the House was that compulsory training was going to be accepted by the country as the practical indication of the realisation of their duty to their country, but, at the same time, he thought there was a danger in the idea that men taken out for a few days each year were sufficient for modern purposes. He thought that all history went to disprove that. Proceeding, the hon. gentleman quoted from a work dealing with the American Civil War, and said he wanted to show that in very real instances, untrained officers were a positive danger to their country ; and he wanted, subsequently, to impress on hon. members the necessity for the immediate institution of a college for the training of officers. He thought he was quite justified in impressing on members the very serious aspect of that question, which, he was afraid, had been lost sight of. He thought they must go back to this: that they could not possibly rely upon either a militia or a volunteer force entirely for their defence. The hon. Minister realised that, and prepared for a striking force of permanently trained and equipped men ready to take the field. But as the hon. member for Pretoria South (General Beyers) said, that scheme laid down in the Bill was all right for a third-rate power, or even for a second rate power which could not come to this country until it commanded the sea; but where was the defence against a first-rate power? They must realise that things had changed, and changed very rapidly, in military matters, all over the world, and more and more they were realising that they must have properly skilled and trained men to do real work. He thought the striking force provided by the Minister was exceedingly small, because, supposing it was necessary to call out their force, had the Minister gone into the question of how long it would take him to concentrate the force he had in training? There would only be 10,000 of four years’ service, 20,000 of three years, 50,000 of two years, and 40,000 of one year. If the people of South Africa thought it was going to put itself into a proper state of defence with a striking force of 2,500 and a reserve force, they were following a very dangerous path indeed. The Minister’s remarks about the Cape Garrison Artillery were thoroughly justified and had been much appreciated. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Struben) was perfectly certain that a South African garrison force adequate to the needs of the country could be formed. The time was not ripe for a standing army, and therefore we must turn to the next best thing. A purely voluntary force was absolutely impossible. Something very much more stringent than volunteer regulations would have to be adopted before we could have an efficient force. Even with the ballot the Minister would have to use his persuasive powers to make people realise that the sooner we trained every available man the better it would be for South Africa. A great many reminiscences of the late war had been given to the House during the past few days, but he would ask hon. members opposite if they did not admit that the late war was not finished by the volunteers or the burghers, but by the trained men who did not think of going home until they were told or until hostilities were concluded. Unfortunately, the use of the defence force had been restricted to South Africa, which was to be regretted in view of movements in Northern Africa to-day, more particularly in respect to the Senussi. Unless the European peoples of South Africa were ready, should occasion arise, to go to any part of Africa we might regret it. He felt somewhat diffident about referring to the Royal Naval Volunteers, because he would be doing his small share in helping to train men for that force, but he felt grateful to the Minister for the more than kind words he had uttered about the force to which he (Mr. Struben) had the honour to belong. (Hear, hear.)

He quite appreciated the Minister’s difficulties in regard to the question of the Navy, but was it dignified for this country with a population of one and a quarter millions of white people to tax ourselves only to the small extent of £85,000 per annum for the purposes of the Imperial Navy, when a little country like New Zealand contributed 10s. per head for the same purpose? In 1877 a meeting of the Victorian Federation League at Melbourne passed a resolution expressing the opinion that the efficient maintenance of a naval and military station at the Cape of Good Hope was necessary to the defence of the Colonies bordering on the Southern Ocean. He would like the Minister to show more realisation of the needs of the Empire of which we were part. We were more dependent than any of the other Colonies on the British Navy. Six millions’ worth of food came into the Union every year. What would happen if sea communication with South Africa were stopped for only ten days? Continuing, Mr. Struben said that in the citizen force no provision was made for a reserve as soon as the Bill came into operation. No provision was made for the registration of men between the ages of 25 and 45, no record was to be kept of men who had belonged to volunteer or irregular corps, and there was no proposal to make a veterans’ reserve for which there was splendid material. Unless there was an organised reserve to fall back upon in the first five years the country would be in a most dangerous condition. Then, all exemptions from service should appear in the Bill, otherwise all sorts of pressure would be brought to bear upon the authorities to grant exemptions where they should not be given. He had told those “conscientious objectors” that they had all to submit to all sorts of irksome laws as to scab, vaccination and the like ; and he had informed them that the scallywag would take as much advantage out of a conscience clause as anyone. In that Bill there was, he continued, no exemption of doctors, but he thought that provision should be made for doctors to go out with the ambulance corps, but not as actual combatants. He must candidly say that, from personal experience, he thought the Minister must take large powers to deal with many matters by regulations, because if they fixed things in their law which were in the nature of standing orders, they might find that they wanted to change them, without the cumbersome method of coming to Parliament. Even fixing the time of training should not be fixed in the Act, because conditions changed so rapidly that he thought it should be left to the regulations. As to the rifle clubs, they would not reach their greatest usefulness without two things. The grants must be fixed upon their efficiency ; and without some training, the rifle clubs would be nothing but an unorganised mob; and the sooner the country realised that a man who could simply shoot was not a soldier, the better. He thought that the Minister should take the power in that Bill to have the registration made of all horses and mules which would be suitable for army purposes. He hoped that somebody would come forward and do something similar to what Mr. Pickard had done in England, who had given a farm to the Government for breeding purposes for army remounts, and worth £20,000. He had a large number of coloured people in his constituency. They were very sensible and reasonable most of them ; and what they said was that they did not want the white man to treat all coloured people—whether educated, civilised coloured people or raw natives—alike. They said that they drew distinctions amongst Europeans, and why not draw distinctions between coloured people too? In the past, they said, they had been the staunchest friends of the white people against the forces of barbarism. He thought that they must realise that, whilst guarding themselves against the danger of arming a horde of barbarians against themselves, they must give the educated, respectable coloured people, and later, the civilised natives, some opportunity of contributing their quota towards the defence of their country. He thought that could be done without any danger, and would remove a great deal of irritation.

said there was a good deal of prejudice against the Bill. After the speech which had been made last year by the Minister, he (the speaker) had explained the Bill to his constituents, and the objections had disappeared. After the Bill had been published, the further difficulties that had arisen were due in part to the vagueness of the phraseology used, and in part to certain persons who made it their business to read it wrongly, who addressed meetings and blew on the fire. After the Minister’s explanation, and some small amendments, he thought the Bill would be accepted. A child who joined the cadets should be protected against evil associations, and against acquiring bad habits. Mention had been made of conscientious objections to compulsory service, and in former days when commandos were called up there had always been many persons who had that difficulty. But he thought that in time of war everybody, both rich and poor, should be put in a position, with horse, saddle and bridle, to join a commando. He entirely disapproved of the £1 tax. The protection of South Africa must be attended to by the inhabitants of South Africa, and not by the people of Great Britain.

said he heartily congratulated the Minister on his Bill, for three reasons: first, because the provisions were in conformity with the conditions and circumstances which existed in South Africa ; secondly, because it would not create an exaggerated military spirit in the country ; and, thirdly, because it gave to South Africa just what she required for defence purposes. Stress had been laid by members on both sides of the House on the fact that three weeks’ training was not enough to enable men to drill properly. But he urged that it was not so much drill that they required as discipline ; the less drill and the more discipline, the better it would be for the scheme. That was at the root of the whole business, and upon discipline the success, in a great measure, of the scheme would depend. Too much drill destroyed the initiative of the soldier, whilst discipline tended to make it more effective. Therefore, he said that they could have too much drill, but not too much discipline. The hon. member for the Zoutpansberg had said that the Minister would be disappointed if he depended too much on the small permanent striking force. He (the speaker) was generally in agreement with the hon. member for Zoutpansberg, but on this occasion he differed. He referred to the Zarps when they were called out for military duty during the war. They did what was required of them so satisfactorily that he did not think their work could have been bettered by men in any other part of the world. It was no use disguising the fact that in some parts of the country there were discontent and dissatisfaction. People were not discontented with the principles of the Bill, but with the provisions, and he thought that this was due to the fact that people had read into the Bill provisions that did not exist there. Naturally, in dealing with such a big question, the Bill was a trifle complicated, and not so explicit as it might have been. Had it been gazetted three months earlier, he thought there would have been less discontent. Members might have been able to discuss the matter with their constituents. As things happened they had not had the time to do anything owing to the extent of some of the constituencies. He referred to his own district, and said that it took him three months to make a complete tour of the part which he represented. People in those portions of his district which he had been able to visit were perfectly satisfied with the Bill. At the same time, some reasonable objections had been made, and he counselled the Minister to look into these points. It had even been suggested that the Bill was a compulsory measure for a purpose other than that of defence. That alone had caused a great deal of dissatisfaction, and he quoted a resolution passed at a meeting held in his own district to show how the terms of the measure had been misread. That meeting had considered that it was a Bill for a purpose other than that of defence. The hon. member for Rustenberg had suggested that the natives should be taxed. But there was another side to be considered. Young men of the required age would be able to avoid taxation by volunteering to serve for the allotted period. These young fellows could escape taxation, but the natives could not, for the reason that they did not come within the scope of the measure. It was regrettable, he thought, that the period of training was not laid down in the Bill. Continuing, the hon. member said that people in the country also complained of the reference to the provisions of the Army Act of Great Britain and Ireland quoted in the Bill in connection with certain offences. That Act was a sealed book to these people, and they objected to being ruled by an Act of which they knew little or nothing. This could be avoided if the Minister would alter schedule 4, and incorporate the particular provisions of the Army Act of Great Britain and Ireland. Then people objected to the compulsory training of cadets. He would say to the Minister: Don’t give anyone a grievance if you can avoid it. He pointed out that the cadet movement was expanding, and in rural parts large numbers of Dutch and English boys were joining. He considered that there should be no compulsion about the matter. He did not think that the movement would be hindered if the compulsory principle was dropped. The hon. member went on to tell a story of two Dutch youngsters who joined a cadet corps, and referred to the horror of the mother when they came home attired in khaki. He thought that the uniform should be changed, and the result of such a change would be beneficial. He thought it wise that they should consider sentiment in a matter of this sort. He was of opinion that boys would join the cadets for the purpose of escaping the recruit training which otherwise would be necessary before they became fully-fledged members of the Active Citizen Force. Continuing, he said that article 8 made it illegal for an employer to penalise an employee who desired to do military duty under the Act. He would like to draw the Minister’s attention to the case of the daily-paid man. If a man went on duty he might not lose his position, but he would very probably lose his pay. What provision did the Minister intend to make to meet cases of this character? Would the Minister have lists made of these daily-paid men? Would these men be placed on list C? In regard to industrial disputes, he hoped that the good sense of employers and employees would prevent any strikes in South Africa, but he maintained that the Citizen Force should not be called out. (Hear, hear.) The police were there to keep order in a case like that, and he thought the calling out of the Citizen Force would cause friction. (Hear, hear.) He hoped that the Minister of Defence, in the regulations he was about to frame, would consider the case of men living in the outside districts who had to travel for some days before they could reach the camp in town. In regard to absentee landowners, he thought a war tax should be placed upon these people. Why should the manhood of South Africa be engaged to protect their property here, while they lived in luxury in Berlin, Paris, and London? (Hear, hear.) Returning once more to the Bill, he was of opinion that our first concern should be coastal defence. That should be taken in hand at once. We were not in the hope-less state that the hon. member for Zoutpansberg said the other day, because South Africa could put into the field to-day a stronger force than she would be able to put into it ton years hence. (Dissent.) We had got in this country all the hardened and experienced material that went through the war. (Hear, hear.) He would not exchange the forces now at disposal with the forces which the Minister of Defence would have at his disposal in eight years’ time. (Hear, hear.) We in South Africa had no fear of invasion at the present time, except as regarded the matter of coastal defence. In regard to the question of internal trouble, in this generation, he firmly believed, or the next generation, we should have no internal disturbances in this country. If we treated the natives with absolute fairness and scrupulous justice, with firmness and liberality, we could not and should not see war during this generation in South Africa. His one regret in his life was that he participated in the war against the Basutos in 1880 at the time of the Sprigg Disarmament Act. Surely we should be the best friends of the natives in this country. We should not forget that it was as much their homeland as it was our homeland. The native also should remember that the favourable conditions under which he was living to-day he owed to the white people of this country—(hear, hear)—and he should also remember that in some cases it was to the white people that they owed their very existence. He disagreed with the Minister for Defence on one point, or rather perhaps the Minister agreed with him, but had not said so. (Laughter.) His (Mr. Nicholson’s) experience had taught him and the Minister’s experience had no doubt taught him that the man who did not want to fight was the best soldier when it came to fighting. (Hear, hear.) That was his experience during the late war. He knew that the Minister, if the Citizen Force had been in existence when he was 17 to 21 years of age, would have been found among those who would have contributed £1, instead of volunteering. (A laugh.) But when he did go into the field—well, that was a matter of history. In closing, Mr. Nicholson referred to former wars in this country in which British and Dutch had fought side by side, and expressed his confidence that they would not be found in opposition again and that their comradeship in defence of a common country would do much to extinguish any racialism that remained. (Hear, hear.)

said that much misunderstanding had arisen over the Bill, because it had not been properly understood, and because irresponsible persons had caused misconceptions. It had perhaps also arisen in part because it had not been sufficiently explained by the persons whose duty it was so to do. He referred to the absolute necessity of having thorough discipline in their army, and quoted the deplorable results which were caused by lack of discipline to the Republican forces in the late war, where all the hard work had to be done by the willing hands. He trusted that the regulations proposed to be taken from the British Army Act would be published, so that they could know where they were The £1 tax pressed too heavily on the poorest people. It was unfair, and he objected to it. There had been a lack of ambulance corps on the side of the Boers during the recent war, and he had himself lain for 48 hours on the field of battle before he was medically attended to. They must have ambulance corps. It was deplorable that some persons had asserted that they should not form their own army, because Great Britain, in the Treaty of Vereeniging, had promised to protect them. Reference had been made to the formation of a naval defence force, but they did not possess the means for that purpose. All that they could do was to-look after the defence of the coast, and he did not regard Simon’s Bay as a purely South African harbour, seeing that the Imperial authorities took charge of the defence there. He regretted that the right hon. member for Victoria West had spoken slightingly of the value of mounted men. In the recent war their value had been clearly shown, whilst with infantrymens they could do very little. He gave examples to illustrate his point. They also required heavy guns, without which they could do very little against the artillery of the enemy. He did not agree with the suggestion which came from the hon. member for Rustenburg, for a postponement or partial postponement of the Bill until the following year. They had put their hands to the plough, and should keep them there. He also regretted the clumsy way in which natives had been dragged into the debate by the hon. member for Tembuland, and fully agreed that it would not do to put arms in the hands of children. He watched with alarm the constantly growing Ethiopian movement, which was nothing but a political movement in a religious guise. He was opposed to the £1 tax, because those who would be called on to pay it would be liable to be called out in time of war, and perhaps to serve for two or three years. Another difficulty arose from the fact that employers might refuse to give permission to their em ployee3 to attend the drills, or perhaps punish them in some other way. He agreed with the hon. member for Rustenburg that evil results followed from the giving of compensation for goods which Were commandeered. His experience in the past had been that the compensation amounted to nothing. He also agreed with the hon. member for Edenburg that members of Parliament should not be exempt. They had such an exemption in the Republican law, with the result that many members of Parliament during the recent war spent their time in Europe, and particularly in Amsterdam. There’ should be more compulsion to attend the shooting drills, and fines should be imposed for absence. He had not much faith in military reviews, as their duration was too short. He also referred to the fact that the police, who at present were joined for the most part to certain corps, would under this system get more duties, and hoped that the right would be given to resign from the corps. He agreed that officers should be appointed, and felt very little confidence in the principle of election. At the end of the recent war only two elected officers had survived as such, all the others having been appointed. No doubt some of the elected officers were capable men, and some had been captured without being in fault, but for the most part they were not worth very much.

said his task was somewhat more difficult than that of hon. members who had spoken before him, because, judging from the tone of the debate, this Bill found general approval, and he would be the only man to vote against it. It contained great principles to which his constituents were very much opposed. The Minister of the Interior was to blame for the difficulty in which he (Mr. Steytler) found himself, as some of the clauses in the measure were drafted in such a way that they could not be understood by the average man in the country. (Hear, hear.) Once suspicion was aroused in the minds of the people in the country, it was difficult to explain it away. In some cases he had failed to explain away the difficulties. His constituents especially objected to the principle of compulsion, the cadet corps, the ballot, etc., but the opposition to the cadets had fallen by reason of the fact that the Minister had not pressed for a compulsory cadet system. Objection was taken to the ballot system, but he was not prepared to advocate anything else in its place, unless it were the compulsory training of all males between 17 and 21, which, however, was, for financial reasons, impracticable. If they took away all the compulsory clauses, there would remain very little, and, indeed, the Bill would have to be redrafted. He would, therefore, vote against the second reading. He trusted the Minister would do everything in his power to encourage the rifle clubs now in existence. He objected to the contribution of £1, as it was an unreasonable tax, and the only men compelled to volunteer would be the poorer classes. If the men must be trained, then rich and poor should be trained alike. He did not see why even members of Parliament should be excused—(hear, hear)—for they should be compelled to go to the front in time of need. The obtaining of men for the defence of the country could not be left to patriotism alone. He thought that a good artillery corps was wanted, and was absolutely essential to the safety of the country. Although he was asked to vote against the Bill, if it went through, he might say with the greatest confidence that the Government could rely upon every man in his constituency, because they believed in being ruled by the majority. (Cheers.)

said experience had taught that training and discipline were necessary for an army. He approved of the Bill, notwithstanding that a number of people were against certain of its provisions. He had done his best to make it clear, but a certain measure of dissatisfaction had arisen from the action of certain persons, who did not want to understand the Bill. Dissatisfaction had arisen from the clause which laid down that the army could go outside the Union, and the clause dealing with the training period was very vague, and should be amended. The £1 tax would chiefly fall on poor people. The rich people must serve first, and the poor people would have to pay first. It was not laid down in the Bill whether a man who had paid the tax would have to pay if he were called up. The obligation to provide a horse would press heavily, and the committee should make provision for that. It was desirable in his opinion before appointing officers to obtain the advice of local people. So far as members of Parliament were concerned, they would find in time of war opportunity enough to show their patriotism. He would vote for the second reading.

said that he considered if there was one measure which was necessary it was a Defence Bill, and he could not agree with those who said that it must be postponed for a year. It was a matter of self-preservation ; and they must organise to defend the Union properly. The compulsory principle had been favoured by every hon. member, it seemed, except the hon. member for Rouxville, whose constituents appeared to be against compulsion. If they took compulsion out of the Bill, however, what would be left? (An HON. MEMBER: “Nothing.”) They must not legislate for willing people, but for those who were unwilling. He had not heard anyone object to the Cadets, as a system, but because there were certain undesirable influences on the Cadets at times ; and it was that which parents objected to. There had been some objection on the part of his constituents, but he thought that would be removed by what the Hon. Minister had said. He favoured that the period of service for Cadets should be from the twelfth year ; and as the Minister had said, when a boy had been a Cadet, he could be exempted from some of the exercises which he would otherwise have to undergo at a later period. Another advantage of the Cadet system was that everyone got some physical training; even the “bookworms” ; and that was of great importance to the physical well being of their young people. Drilling only lasted a couple of hours per week. In the Cadet Corps a boy learnt manliness, and received a good physical training. He also agreed with the hon. member for Three Rivers (Mr. Brown) as to what he had said about the Boy Scouts, and their principles were excellent. He could recommend lads joining that movement. As to the rifle clubs, it was not only necessary for men to become good shots, but also to learn discipline, because without discipline they could not do much with their defence force. He would even favour members of these corps taking part in the manoeuvres, so that they would get a good training and learn to know what that feeling of esprit de corps was which was so necessary in war. He thought it desirable that every young citizen should undergo some instruction in first-aid and the like, which would prove to be very useful to him. As to what hon. members said about members of Parliament also being compelled to serve, he was of opinion that that was essentially a matter for themselves to decide ; and if they were willing to serve, let them do so. There were several technical matters which should also receive serious attention in connection with their Defence Force, such as engineering matters, field telegraphy and the like ; and he hoped that they would not be lost sight of. He would not like to take up the time of the House any further, but only hoped that the measure would receive the most careful consideration from the Select Committee ; that it would come back an improved measure, and that it would do much to make them a self-reliant people, able to defend themselves. He would cordially support the Second Reading of the Bill.

said that he did not think there need be any misunderstanding in the country about the main features of the Bill, after the very adequate publicity which had been given. One thing, he went on to say, was certain and that was that if they wished to build up a South African nation into one solid and healthy whole they must have discipline. The discipline provided for in this measure would, he considered, adequately meet the needs of the case. He did not wish to go into the details of the Bill, but there were a few points in the Minister’s speech on which he did not agree with him. The first was the appointment, or rather non-appointment, of a Commandant-General. (Hear, hear.) Under the proposals outlined by the Minister, it seemed to him, they might possibly have the Minister sheltering himself behind the Council of War, and the Council of War sheltering itself behind the Minister, so that nobody would be responsible. They must have a permanent head, and a strong man at the head of the Army if they wished to make it a success. He hoped the Select Committee would bring in a clause in this direction for the appointment of a Commandant-General. In reference to rifle associations, he would like to say that their experience in Natal had been that the country from one side to the other was under properly-organised rifle clubs. (Hear, hear.) He hoped that the rifle associations would be empowered to make regulations to deal with minor details as to drill and so on. They were not going to make this country by a lot of patriotic speeches or by a lot of big talk. Let them obtain discipline and organisation, and then when the day came they could stand firm. He hoped that the Bill would have a successful passage.

said that if any of the remarks he intended to offer were in the nature of opposition the opposition was the result of study and conviction. After all the speeches he was reminded of the lines of the American poet :

It was, he continued, up to us to use our wealth in that way, too. He was filled with regret that it was necessary to introduce such a Bill at this stage. We were not a nation, nor had we the essentials of nationality. We had no analytical national consciousness. (Laughter.) All the speeches showed that we lacked a national soul, so that the Bill was doomed to failure. The Prime Minister was the arch-optimist of South Africa, but even in his speech there were significant undertones. The Bill was really a movement of the Government against the people as a whole. It would mean more billets for the rich and more bullets for the poor. The hon. member for Ermelo had said that there would be a gradual decrease in enrolments. Where, then, was the patriotism? When patriotism ceased to pay patriotism ceased to exist, and when war ceased to pay war would cease to exist. The Prime Minister said that they must not take away from the people the right to protect themselves. He wondered how much meaning the right hon. gentleman wished to put into those words. Men had said to him, Let them arm us, and when the trouble comes they will regret that they have done so. Let them arm the railwaymen and the miners on the Rand, and then what would come? They would see very forcibly what the right hon. member for Victoria West had referred to as the divergent interests of the country. That was where the clash would come. Was the House going to say or not that these men, once they were armed, should have the right to protect themselves. The men had no right to-day, and that was what they were asking for. He uttered that simply as a warning. They did not want to look beyond this country, but to develop it in the spirit of forefathers of this country. Hon. members would agree with him if they took the trouble to think that the Bill could only be a success if the national spirit were behind it. As an Englishman, he was ashamed to say it, but at present they were not one people, nor had they one ideal nor did they aim at destiny. Hon. members had said that the great thing in this country was how to use a rifle. He could ride and shoot along with anyone—(laughter)—but he would never take a rifle to shoot at his fellow men, and he did not want to become an expert in the art of murder. He had had to do what no other hon. member ever did, to walk between tribes of cannibals with a revolver in each hand. (Laughter.) They were ; not being attacked.

We may be some day.

Well, the man who would waste his powder and shot on us ought to be hanged.

He wanted to call attention to one or two little points which seemed to him to indicate raw haste. The second line of the Bill said, in short, that a young man of 17 years may be called upon to fight. That was responsibility ; but the young man had to be 21 years of age before they gave him a vote. That, he submitted, was rather a harshness. He was rather surprised at some remarks made during the debate regarding the natives. If hon. members knew what took place at the Native Congress, held at Bloemfontein a little while ago, they would not treat the matter lightly ; and if they knew what was taking place at Durban now, they would treat it seriously. They were not trying to kindle rebellion. Those things were kindled by white men. The natives said: “We are being exploited by the white men, and it is time for us to defend ourselves—but not with arms.” So long as they treated the natives with justice, they would have very little trouble. When they went to Natal, they found that the Mauritians and St. Helenas were treated as Europeans, and were under the European code ; but as soon as they went to the Transvaal, they were on the level of the natives. These men had said to him, “If the country is to be defended, why should we not be recognised as well as any others?” Proceeding, the hon. member said a mistake was made in clause 119, which would have to be rectified. It did not express what was intended. As he understood the Bill, it seemed to be based on two assumptions and one was that they were out to lay the foundations of a great nation. (Hear, hear.) What was there in this Bill for the welfare of society and the just government of man? What was there in all this hypocritical talk about patriotism to promote the honour and glory of God? The second assumption was that the essential constituent of that foundation was what he might call militarism. His contention was that in the present condition of this country, in the present lack of unanimity and present lack of solidarity, the Bill was out of place, and it would bring failure upon the head of the Government. Well, there were two standpoints—the standpoint of the soldier and the standpoint of the statesman. They were told by a great authority that fighting was a soldier’s religion, and once, like the warhorse when he scented battle, they could no more hold him back than a tiger who once had scented human blood. He was told this Bill was for defence ; but a very wise man had said, “An armed defence is always a defiance.” If the native danger was real, then the proposed force was absolutely useless ; and if the danger was not real, then the proposed steps were unnecessary. He had heard Australia quoted ; but he thought they had better leave it out for there was not a single port or point in Australia which 1,000 men could not hold against an army. Why hoist the red flag? With whom were they to fight? The right hon. gentleman (Mr. Merriman) said they had neighbours. Were they to be frightened of Germany—a huge factory out of breath to-day with its competition, the walls bulging out? Three years ago they might have been warned. The war party in Germany was the Prussian aristocracy ; but their teeth had been drawn. Let them have peace for three years more and Germany would never go to war. Then they were warned against the little yellow men. He was sure the right hon. gentleman did not know the Japs or their aspirations. They were saying, as Mr. Rhodes had said, “Our hinterland lies to the north.” Now, as to the spirit of the Bill. He thought that if anybody was to be called upon to serve everybody should be called upon. But, oh, the delicious satire of it. They said it was their duty, which for £1 they could buy out. Why he thought it would fail was because the Bill was opposed to the most cultured and most advanced thought of the present day.

He appealed to the House to put aside all movements which would make divergent interests clash. There was no provision in the Bill that the defence force should not be called out in times of industrial strife. Once the people felt that the movement was a necessary one they would come in to a man. He disagreed with the principles upon which the Bill was based. History taught that those who took to the sword must perish by the sword. He had no doubt that the Bill would be passed, but if it were he must abandon the opinion that government was based on public opinion. The Bill was a backward step. Here we were standing face to face with a very great opportunity. The Canadians, the Australians, and the Pilgrim Fathers had no such opportunity—an opportunity the world had never before seen, and that was to show that we could lay our foundations in righteousness. What was the cause of European wars? Mad commercialism, every time. (Hear, hear.) The working classes in South Africa could not be worse off than they were now if the Germans or French came here. Eager eyes had been fastened on the rich native territories for years, and it was said in England that they must be protected. Having remarked that parsons in England had prayed to the Almighty to beat the Boers, the hon. member said that commercialism was restless. He had heard Christian merchants say that a periodical native rising was an excellent thing for trade. During the last Zulu affair the merchants of Durban off-loaded their rotten stocks on to the Government. The Auditor-General brought the matter to the notice of Parliament, and when the stuff was returned it was so bad that the rebel Zulus would not eat it. They had all heard of what is called the aura of mob psychology. (Laughter.) It did not do hon. members credit to laugh at what only educated intelligence could understand.

requested the hon. member to confine his remarks to the subject under discussion.

Yes, Mr. Speaker, I will, but these interruptions are very unpleasant. Concluding, the hon. member said that nations and individuals were alike in this—they were moulded and controlled by their ideals, and the ideal before the House was not a high one. Many hon. members had said that their people were all against the Bill. (Cries of “No, no.”) Several hon. members had said it. (An HON. MEMBER: “Very few.”) He hoped they would not vote as mere delegates but as men of conscience and conviction.

They know their duty.

said that like the last speaker he also was a Socialist, but he viewed the matter of defence from an entirely different standpoint. They all detested war, but because they detested war it did not follow that they were not to be prepared to resist war. (Hear, hear.) What would happen if we were absolutely unprepared? However peaceful one might be, one could not prevent the other man from hitting one in the eye. (Cheers.) That being so, it was necessary that we should be prepared to resist any invasion. (Cheers.)

Business was suspended at 6 p.m.

continuing, said he would like to emphasise that in his opinion it was necessary that they should have a defence force that would be able to resist invaders from any power. An hon. member on the Opposition side of the House had drawn attention to the fact that the Bill made no provision, either for the provision of ships or a contribution to the Imperial Navy, in order that the coast line of the Union might be protected. He wished to associate himself with the remarks of that hon. gentleman. He had the same fault to find with the Minister of Defence in that he had not provided for the building of ships or a contribution to the Navy. The right hon. gentleman who represented Victoria West had said that it would be a disgrace—the right hon. gentleman was then arguing in favour of volunteering—if they allowed the British taxpayer to pay for the defence of their country. He was at one with the right hon. gentleman. It was a disgrace, and would be a disgrace. They had no right to expect that the British taxpayer should bear a portion of the burden of defending the country. They would be doing so if they allowed the Bill to go through without making any sort of provision of that character. At the present time there was a difficulty with regard to the carriage of mails, and if they were not careful they would get into the hands of a shipping ring. Here was an opportunity not only to settle the mail business, but to defend ourselves on the water. It would not cost a great deal to build a fleet of mail steamers which, in time of war, could be converted into fast cruisers. They had an excellent precedent. Now Australia was always trotted out as a shining example during any big debate, but hon. members who trotted out that country always failed to say that there was a Labour Government in power. In this instance he claimed the right to trot out Australia as a shining example to South Africa. He contended that the Minister of Defence was trying to defend the country on the cheap.

He had told hon. members that the scheme as laid down in the Bill would cost no more than £300,000 a year more than they were paying for the force that existed at the present time. Perhaps it would surprise the Minister and other members of that House to know that according to the last Budget Australia was spending four millions a year on defence. This did not include the contribution of £200,000 a year to the British Navy, in spite of the fact that at the same time Australia was building a navy which was almost completed. Mr. Fisher, when he presented his Budget, said that while he was at the Imperial (inference the Imperial Government had suggested that it should pay a third towards the maintenance of the Australian Navy. But the Government of Australia had decided that it could bear the whole cost, and that the Imperial Government would not be troubled at all. If Australia could spend four millions a year then South Africa ought to be able to spend at least two millions a year in the same way. Then he would point out that there was no clause prohibiting the Union troops from being used in industrial strikes. What caused trouble and what caused troops to be called out during the time a strike was in progress?

Cussedness. (Laughter.)

On the part of the employers. (Laughter.) Continuing, he said that soldiers always objected to having to take part in strike-breaking, and he thought it was essential that a clause covering a matter of that sort should be included in the Bill. He pointed out that before a strike was begun every opportunity was given the employers of coming to terms. The employers were always asked for concession, but the employees rarely got anything.

pointed out that the debate was one connected with the defence of the Union.

said he was merely suggesting that a clause should be inserted so that the Union troops might not be called upon in times of strike. The working classes were only human after all, and they objected to troops, for which they paid, being called out against them.

Practically pay?

Well, seven-eighths of the taxation is paid by the working classes.

In reference to clause 16, “constitution of the Citizen Force,” the hon. member called attention to sub-section (5), in which it was stated that “members of the Citizen Force shall not be entitled to be paid for their services during peace training, but may receive such monetary or other allowances as are prescribed.” He pointed out that the bulk of the force would be drawn from the workers, and he asked whether it was fair that they should be required to sacrifice a week’s or a fortnight’s work and receive no pay at all? The hon. member next referred to clause 58 (5), which set out that the Governor-General may appoint as officer “any citizen who, owing to professional attainments or position in civil calling, is specially fitted to serve as an officer in such corps or unit.” He hoped that the Minister would make it quite clear what that clause meant. Surely it could not mean that, because a man had got on in his profession he was to be placed in command over men? In regard to clauses 41 and 42, “incorporation of existing forces,” he would like to know whether the police would be required to serve in the permanent force whether they wished to do so or not. Referring to the cadet corps, Mr. Madeley stated that several points had been brought to his notice by a volunteer officer in his constituency. One was that the cadets had to provide their own uniforms, the clause merely providing for a grant in aid. The hon. member, after alluding to several other suggestions brought to his notice, went on to say that he agreed entirely with the idea that there should be a Commandant-General and that he should be chosen immediately, so that he could proceed to lick the force into shape. In concluding, he remarked that he would support the principle of the Bill and vote for the second reading, reserving to himself the right to endeavour to amend the Bill where necessary when they came to the committee stage. Every South African, whether of British or Dutch descent, should have uppermost in his mind at the present time, at all events, the institution of a force which would defend this country not only internally, but also externally. Let them forget the idea that they should not make this defence scheme of theirs too costly. It could not be too costly if they got value for their money. He would like to see South Africa have a fleet of her own, as well as her land forces.

said the Bill did not make it quite clear what was the length of the service period. If the duty to serve were limited to South Africa the people would be satisfied, but it should be stated in plain language. When a man joined the army it should be made clear what was expected from him. It was not always possible for a man to provide himself with horse, saddle, and bridle, and the Government should make the necessary provision. He agreed with what had been said concerning the cadets. Obedience was necessary in an army, and obedience, when learned young, became a habit which was easily followed in after years. No drills should be allowed on Sundays, for violation of the Sabbath was a thorn in the eye of the people. In former times there had been opportunities for every young man to learn to ride and shoot, but that was no longer quite the case, and the Government should provide the necessary opportunities. He did not agree with the hon. member for Roodepoort that to prepare for defence was to issue a challenge. They must all be prepared to defend themselves, and keep their country.

thought the debate a most valuable one It is quite unique in history to find the chief actors of a war that took place ten years ago should be discussing calmly and dispassionately a scheme for the defence of their country against any common enemy. It would go out from the country that racialism was dead.

It ought to be.

said that if the cry were raised it was an artificial one. He would not have spoken were it not for the remarks of one or two hon. members who had not learned the lessons they should have from the late war. These hon. members did not understand that the reason why the Republics lost their independence was the working of a far greater power than was in the field. While spectacular battles were taking place in South Africa a silent battle was going on thousands of miles away. It resulted in the Union and in the present Parliament. That power was one which if we did not uphold might be turned against ourselves, not perhaps in the dim future. The power he referred to was that of the sea. That silent battle was one which took place in perhaps two dingy offices, one in London and the other in Berlin, and it might have been between six staff officers on the one side and six on the other. They took statistics and worked out what the battle power of the two fleets was, and then the German power put their hands up and decided it was not worth the candle. Hence, though we had spectacular battles in this country, the great silent power of the sea brought about the Union. Therefore he felt disappointed that when they celebrated the Union of this country last session they had not made a far greater vote to the naval power of Great Britain, and he hoped that the Minister of Defence would reconsider this vote to the Power which was going to guarantee the independence of this country for all time. The hon. member for Pretoria South spoke of this country having a defence force capable of meeting a first-class Power. That was equivalent to asking a youngster of three years old to stand up against a prize-fighter. In time he would, perhaps, arrive at the efficiency of the prize-fighter, but only in time. It was impossible for us to have a force to meet any first-class Power. We were only protected against such a Power by the sea power of Britain, and if that disappeared to-morrow we should be at their mercy.

I don’t agree with you.

took it that the hon. member had in mind the case of the United States. History showed that was the only case where a country secured its independence in the face of a sea power. But it must be remembered that Britain then had her hands full. She was at war with the three greatest powers next to herself in Europe—France, Spain, and Holland, and was confronted with a revolution in Ireland, while her exchequer was empty. How would the hon. member prevent it? He would be starved out.

Not with our resources.

Not with our resources? Proceeding, he said that a landing could be made, and our forces be taken in the rear. Supposing the hon. member had three hundred thousand men at his disposal, as he says he desires under this Bill—had there been any greater proof of what he said than the late War?

Want of discipline?

said that his hon. friend was wrong. It was sea power alone that would save us. There was only one way in which South Africa could be protected against such a Power, and that was if the sea were swallowed up and there were a desert between here and Europe. The Minister had had a most difficult task: in drafting the Bill. The first duty in drafting a Bill which insisted upon compulsory service and compulsory training—the two were easily confused—was to obtain a maximum of efficiency with a minimum of inconvenience to the public and with a minimum of expenditure. He thought the Minister had succeeded in getting these requirements. Perhaps hon. members were not aware, that a Bill similar to this one was passed in Natal ten years ago. Canada went before them. New Zealand followed, and ten years ago Natal appointed a Commission to go into the question of defence. It had to consider three points: the defence requirements of the Colony, the material at its disposal, and the question of finance. They were not very friendly with France at the time and they were outnumbered by the native races—the finest fighting races in South Africa—as ten to one ; and they had small financial resources. They laid down the principle that it was the duty of every man to defend his country. They wanted a small striking force, and they drafted the Militia Bill, which divided their forces into three lines of defence. The first was the striking force and the second was the reserve, and in case of an emergency the third line was called out, and it consisted of every able-bodied man in Natal. They had a Defence Council and a Commandant-General ; but he was sorry to say that the Bill, as drafted, was considerably altered in most of its essentials when it came before the House. He hoped that would not happen to this Bill. But for all that, the Natal Bill was considered, in Australia and Canada, as one of the finest Defence Acts that had ever been conceived. But where Natal did lead was in its cadet force. They depended for their future defence force upon the youth of the country. They trained them, knowing they would eventually go into the compulsory service. The hon. member for Pretoria South (General Beyers) feared they were not going to get a sufficient force by this Bill; but he did not think he bad considered sufficiently what was known as the National Reserve

Disorganised.

No, not disorganised, because it contained a leaven of trained or experienced men.

Undisciplined.

But does the hon. member understand that the National Reserve is the flesh that is going to clothe the first and second lines of defence? Fifty per cent. of the National Reserve, today, is a trained force. They are men who have had experience and will be able to immediately fall into line.

Proceeding, the hon. member said the hon. Minister said that the Defence Council would be a bulwark behind which a weak Minister might shelter himself. He could quite understand that would be the case if the Defence Council were made up of old gentlemen with nothing to do ; but he looked upon the Council as an Advisory Board, with certain powers. He wanted it to be something more. He wanted it to show to the world at large that racialism was really dead, and he would like to see it composed of three gentlemen from either side—three Englishmen and three Dutchmen, with the Minister of Defence as chairman. And he would like to see that Council with certain executive powers. Some hon. members seemed to think that a Defence Council was a Council of War, but the Defence Council, as he understood it, would simply be responsible for building up the machinery of war. When war broke out, the functions of that Council would cease for the moment. The Minister said that he was afraid that the Council would be a bulwark behind which a Minister could shelter himself. He (the hon. member) would be willing for him to do so, rather than have a Minister so strong as to take all powers into his own hands. He hoped that the Select Committee would create such a Council. He referred just now to the sea power which was protecting this country. They all knew there was a shadow rising in the East. In the last few weeks they had seen China created a Republic. They knew they were advancing. They knew also that they could turn out of their resources five Dreadnoughts to Britain’s one Dreadnought. Only ten years ago a very able article appeared in the “Scientific American” by a naval expert, in which he said it would be at least fifty years before Japan could turn out a second-class cruiser. Within nine years of that, Japan turned out two Dreadnoughts, building them and launching them in their own country. She was now building 9.2-in. guns, and within two years would be able to manufacture her own 12 and 13 in. guns. South Africa was midway between the East and the West. They were producing one-third of the output of gold in the world.

Gold—the sinew of war—would undoubtedly attract any Power, and, therefore, it was the duty of every hon. member to put aside all party feeling and sink every difference, and to say that they were going to defend South Africa, and that they were going to make every man efficient for the defence of this country ; but more than that, they were going to see that Great Britain retained her command of the sea. (Cheers.)

said there had been much criticism in connection with that Bill, especially by persons who wanted to arouse dissatisfaction, but he thought that the memorandum had removed every difficulty. He admitted that it was the duty of South Africa to put itself in a state of defence, and so far as he was concerned he would never agree to a milk and water Bill. It was in the strength of the army that the strength of the nation lay. He hoped that the Select Committee would pay attention to the objections which had been brought forward, so that the House could in the end unanimously adopt a Bill for the maintenance of the country. The military authorities in Parliament had pointed out the weak places, which must be attended to, and the public would be shown that they made a not unimportant part of the British Empire.

said the hon. member for Roodepoort (Mr. Haggar) had asked what natives in Zululand were saying just before the rebellion He (Mr. Clayton) would supply the answer. What the natives then said was: “Now that the Home Government is taking its men away from here, now is the time to have a fight.” So strong was that feeling that the Natal Government asked that a regiment, which had been removed, should be sent back to Maritzburg. That was done, but it was unhappily too late to exert the moral influence which should have been exercised. What had occurred in Natal through the removal of the Imperial troops might occur again when the time came for the British troops to leave the Union. It was essential that the Union should be prepared for such an emergency, besides invasion by sea or land, both of which were quite possible. The hon. member concluded by suggesting that it should be made possible for the identity of the present volunteer corps to be preserved—(hear, hear)—that uniforms should be provided, and that rifle associations should not cover too large districts, so that existing associations might if possible be used in the scheme.

said that what had struck him so strangely about that debate was that although it had now lasted for some days, very few hon. members of the Opposition had taken part in it. It seemed to him that the position was something like this: last year the question of defence had come from the Opposition, and the Minister of Defence said that he would bring in a Bill to deal with the whole question at a later stage, though he (the speaker) did not say that the Minister had dressed himself in their clothes. That measure was a very far-reaching and comprehensive one, and he thought that it should have been longer before the public, or that it should have been more clearly explained. He did not say that they should let it stand over, but still they must proceed very slowly and carefully. It appeared to him that the system contained in the Bill was something like conscription, and it went even further than similar legislation did in Britain, where conscription was strongly opposed. He thought it would be better to have the voluntary principle first ; let the Minister give an opportunity for people to volunteer before he imposed a compulsory system like that. They should not go too far, especially in a matter of that sort. If there was not such patriotism that people would come forward voluntarily and defend their country without payment, he thought that that measure would prove a failure. It was everyone’s duty to come forward and defend his country. He disapproved the principle of paying for patriotism. Such attention had not been paid to that question of defence in the Cape as in the other three Provinces of the Union, and yet it had the largest European population, and, therefore, would have to take the biggest share of the defence of the land, although it was not accustomed to such a scheme of defence They were accustomed to compulsion in the other Provinces, but the Cape Colony had always been satisfied with the protection they enjoyed under the British flag. His opinion was that the period of training would have to be fixed in the Act, as that would give more general satisfaction. It should not be a matter which was left to the regulations. Government by means of regulations he did not approve of, because it might prove to be the thin end of the wedge, and they might not always have the same Government on those benches. The Government must see that there was a sufficient number of weapons, so that every citizen could be armed, and they must not depend on other countries for their guns and ammunition. That portion of the British Army Act which it was intended to take over should be given as a schedule to the Bill. Coming to the question of finance, they must not forget that they were not a rich country, and he feared that the scheme would tend to become very costly. He saw that Australia appropriated £800,000 in 1907 for its defence, and now it had risen to £2,000,000. They must, he proceeded, see that their rifle clubs had sufficient practice and were furnished with the necessary ammunition so that each one could learn properly to shoot, and the people should all be provided with arms. Unfortunately, these rifle clubs had been rather hardly treated by past Governments, and had not received that encouragement which they should have received. He trusted that the Select Committee would give close attention to the various objections which had been raised.

said he was prepared to admit the necessity for the Bill, while at the same time regretting that necessity. He thought the Minister, at the beginning of his speech, made out an excellent case as to the necessity of a measure of this kind. It only behoved hon. members to look at this world, which was an armed camp, and to remember that we were surrounded by a race which was just emerging from savagery. Not that he feared an uprising of the natives ; at the same time, he thought we should take precautions against any uprising. He should like to support what had been said as to the necessity of payment for the losses incurred by citizens of this country during the course of training. Unless some provision of this kind were made in the Bill, there would be a good deal of hardship. If he understood defence, it existed for two purposes—the defence of life and the defence of property. This Bill called for an equal contribution from every citizen in the matter of the defence of his country. That would be quite right if only life were involved. But they must not forget that this Bill dealt also with the protection of property. There should be some taxation for the benefits gained by property owners, and he suggested they should institute a graduated income tax. Such revenue could be devoted to paying men for their losses while attending compulsory training. He did not think they could impress too much upon the Minister, if he desired the measure to be popular and effective, that he should not allow the force to be used in suppressing industrial disturbances without the consent of Parliament, especially as he had to summon Parliament on sending the force outside the State. The Minister had omitted the foot police from the Bill. They would always be available to hold law-breakers in check until the House had an opportunity of discussing the merits of the dispute. He protested against the number of exemptions in the Bill, for unless a scheme of this kind was universal much discontent would be caused, and there would be charges of favouritism. He also strongly protested against the exemption of members of Parliament. It was Parliament that would have the chief say in creating war, and therefore hon. members should not be exempt from assisting in the defence of the country. He was sure that hon. members would be constantly reminded of this when they returned to their constituencies. Provision was made that in the case of death or injury, compensation should be paid to the dependants of the person—this compensation to be prescribed by regulation. This was so important a matter that the scale should be laid down in the Bill. He suggested that the scale of payments for injuries Or death should be that laid down in the various Workmen’s Compensation Acts—the State being treated as the employer. In a serious war, even in a native war, the sum required for compensation might be very large, and the country had a right to know what they might be called upon to pay. He contended that the Minister should have included all women in the Defence Bill, and should have compelled them to undergo a course of compulsory training as nurses. Otherwise, in the event of war, nurses would have to be imported. Such a training would also be of benefit to women in the home. He would vote for the second reading, but unless the committee made adequate provision for the payment of men undergoing peace training and against the use of the force in industrial disturbances he would have to vote against the measure at a later stage.

replying to the debate, said the hon. member for Jansenville had expressed the hope that the Bill had not been introduced simply to be in the fashion or as a luxury. All the nations were arming themselves, and if South Africa did the same, it was certainly not for the sake of imitation. For almost a hundred years this country had been scourged with war, and had scarcely ever enjoyed ten consecutive years of peace. What had happened before might happen again, and they should read the future in the past. By creating a force to defend the country they acted not from motives of luxury, but as intelligent men. The debate had been for him a moral education ; it had thrown a new light on the subject, and if only the public had read the speeches which had been made, there should no longer be any doubt, at any rate, as to the chief principles of the Bill. It appeared clearly enough that in principle they were all agreed, and that many misunderstandings had been removed in course of debate. It was not necessary to say more about the cadet system. All were agreed that it was a good system, that it deserved support, but that it should not be made compulsory. (Hear, hear.) The establishment of rifle associations appeared to meet with general approval, and he endorsed what had been said by the Prime Minister—namely, that such institutions would be greatly improved if their members would agree to undergo military training. The relative clauses in the Bill might be made clearer, so that the whole system could be improved. The hon. member for Rustenburg spoke of the Naval Reserve, and said that the number of men had not been given, but there would be no difficulty about that, as the British Government only expected 300 or 400 volunteers, as a reserve for the protection of the Cape coast. There was not much difference of opinion as to the defence of the coast, though there was in other respects. The speech which had been made by the hon. member for Pretoria District, South, showed that he had thoroughly studied the Bill, but he was wrong in stating that it had been drafted on foreign lines. He (the Minister) had done his best to make the scheme fit in with local conditions. The cadet system, for instance, did not come from abroad. It had been adopted first in Natal, and from Natal it had spread over the whole world. Rifle associations also were closely bound up with South African history, and the use of the police in a defence scheme had long been the custom in South Africa. The police had always been considered the first line of defence, as witness the use of the Cape (Mounted Rifles, and it was quite incorrect to say that the Bill was of foreign make. The principle of creating a citizen force came from Natal, for whose Act of 1905 the hon. member for Dundee was in great part responsible. The Bill was, in fact, intrinsically South African, and he quite agreed that an attempt to impose a scheme on South Africa which was based on foreign ideas would only lead to failure. From the debate which had taken place on the main principles of the Bill, he felt that in adopting the middle course he had been right. Both extremes were well represented in the House. “Have no compulsion, but trust to the volunteers,” said one side of the House; but the volunteer system had already been tried in South Africa, and it was not a success. Such a system did not give the best results, and there was no adequate reserve, though that was an essential feature of every sound defence scheme. With about 10,000 volunteers, they had a reserve which was exceedingly small. When the present Bill was in full operation they would have every year 6,000 well-trained men sent to the reserve, who would be in readiness in time of need It would be necessary to pay the volunteers if they had them, and he thought that principle was (wrong. The other extremists favoured universal compulsion, and the hon. member for Pretoria District, South, who favoured that principle, said that every year they should train 10,000 to 12,000 available young men, with a few exceptions on medical grounds. That system was all very well in theory, but the speaker doubted whether the public would submit to such compulsion.

They asked for it.

said the people asked for it because they knew they would not get it—(laughter)—but if it were agreed to, they would go frantic. In the matter of compulsory service he had therefore thought it wise to take a middle course, and if that course were adopted it was possible they would get all the men they wanted in the form of volunteers, though if more offered than were required they would be accepted. He considered that if the public were willing to volunteer, it was not desirable to limit their number too closely, and in any case it was better to pay up than to discourage voluntary service. It was possible that in the long run the ballot system would not be found satisfactory, in which case there was no reason why they Should not alter the arrangement. At the present moment he was afraid to have too much compulsion, and trusted that when the public properly understood the Bill there would be so many volunteers that the ballot system would not be needed at all. Their army would be improved by its absence. He favoured on general grounds the principle of universal compulsory service, but on a careful examination of the subject had found that this would demand too much from the public, especially on the farms, and he had therefore come to the conclusion that semi-compulsion was the only possible way out. It had been repeatedly urged that officers should not be appointed who came from elsewhere, but that they should have local men in the various districts, and, so far as that was possible, it had already been provided for in clause 38. With the exception of the technical branches, all the officers (would be taken from the ranks, though for telegraphy and artillery it might be necessary to take men from outside the corps. The objections to Sunday training had already been training should take place on Sunday, training would not, as a rule, be permitted —(hear, hear)—though on the Witwatersrand a volunteer system had been created which had Sunday training for its basis, and in that case it had been said that abolition of Sunday training meant abolition of the corps. The Government at the time had to act as the volunteers desired, but now they would go to work in a different way, and it would be possible to direct that no further training should take place on Sunday. Other points raised in the debate were of a subordinate character, and could be better dealt with in committee. As soon as the Bill had been read a second time it was the intention of the Government to refer it to a Select Committee, who would deal with all those points. (Cheers.)

The motion for the second reading of the Bill was agreed to with only one dissentient.

The Bill having been read a second time,

moved that the Bill be referred to a Select Committee for consideration and report, and that the committee have power to take evidence and call for papers.

seconded.

The motion was agreed to.